JA Escalante the Canadian presence at TAC has gone way too far when "Caribou" appears in a thesis title
August 14 at 2:14pm · Like · 31
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Daniel P. O'Connell Slideshow? Wow. Getting high-tech.
August 14 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Christopher Michael Mercincavage I don't see one decent paper on Belgian Lesbian Studies anywhere on this list! How can this be a legitimate school?
August 14 at 2:23pm · Unlike · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson “And They Were Both Naked … and Were Not Ashamed”: The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual Art.
OH SNAP
August 14 at 2:38pm · Like · 16
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Matthew J. Peterson Wild how many of these are circling around political philosophy. I've wondered if this is a trend over the last decade or so. Richard Delahide Ferrier, David Quackenbush, Brian Dragoo - do you think there are more or less students writing on political philosophy topics these days than in the past? Or has it remained roughly constant?
August 14 at 2:44pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Escalante: The next step will be a thesis on usury and the Loonie.
August 14 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure A surprising number of theological interests: even something on evangelization. I'd say the students are taking over.
August 14 at 2:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think if Tim Horton's and the Toonie make an appearance in a thesis title, it will be time for a scouring of the shire.
August 14 at 2:51pm · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson There are always at least that number of theological interests in play, Peregrine Bonaventure. Just like there are is an absurdly high percentage of grads who go into the religious life.
August 14 at 2:51pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Really, do you have a graph? Also, TAC almost comes close to studying the volume of St. Thomas' work as Christendom theology students, not to mention... Ah, congratulations. TAC is wonderful.
August 14 at 2:53pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Sometimes quality is more important than volume
I always like seeing the "trends" of the thesis titles for each class. You can always tell which topics caused the most after class thought
August 14 at 2:57pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I said "required" in the status, but I'm not even sure that I need to.
There may be theology majors in a precious few non-religious institutions who read as much St. Thomas, but we'd still be up there. As to Aristotle, however - I'd be willing to bet that almost no major anywhere reads as much Aristotle, and as slowly.
August 14 at 3:00pm · Edited · Unlike · 7
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Michael Beitia ^and painfully^
August 14 at 3:01pm · Like · 9
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Peregrine Bonaventure Christendom theology students study a greater volume of St. Thomas in the context of a greater range of the Church's Magisterium. So it is both quantity and quality. It is too bad no one at TAC is talking or writing about this yet, when some of its tutors are pushing questionable theories of evolution.
August 14 at 3:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure The claim that the "requirement" to read Thomas is greater at TAC than any other college, and not even close, is false and ridiculous. Christendom theology students are required to read a greater volume in a context which is more pre-eminent in quality. This false claim is presupposed by an academic bias, and what is the point of studying St. Thomas if you ere in theological speculation because of your academic bias? But congratulations! Every college graduate deserves congratulations!
August 14 at 3:15pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick What do you mean by in context? And I guess I should clarify my "quality" was a tease.
August 14 at 3:22pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education/syllabus
Syllabus | Thomas Aquinas College
www.thomasaquinas.edu
The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of T...See More
August 14 at 3:23pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Those are specified Theology students not all Christendom students, which is the distinction that was being made I do believe.
August 14 at 3:23pm · Unlike · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti #echochamber
August 14 at 3:24pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, not when they get out of the nest. One hopes. But that's partly my job online, which is why I am regarded as a LEEBEARELLE.
August 14 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Drew Summitt "A Link to the Past: An Investigation of the Role of History in the Understanding and Development of Political Science"
Favorite one.
August 14 at 3:26pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson What I love most about all the titles is how wide sweeping they are. I mean, just let that one above sink in. HAH. But this is precisely what is needed in the fractured world in which we live, at least at the start. They will never deliver on their promise in these grandiose titles but letting them try without dying the death of a thousand footnotes is good stuff.
So long as they then get out and get particular and keep learning and realize they didn't actually solve the problem.
August 14 at 3:28pm · Like · 8
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Aaron Gigliotti "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."
August 14 at 3:30pm · Like · 24
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Peregrine Bonaventure By context we mean studying St. Thomas in the context of the fullness of the deposit of the Faith, and not the other way around. This would be very good to try more of at TAC, to help some of the theological theses to not drift so far into the speculative weeds and weirdness. I repeat that Christendom theology majors are required to read more Thomas and Church theology, so the claim is silly, and only underscores the hubris of TAC.
August 14 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick But what do you mean by in the context of the fullness of the faith? Supplementary readings, commentaries, by priests?
August 14 at 3:39pm · Unlike · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti "Hello-oh-oh-oh: An Examination of the Relationship Between Relaxed Admissions Standards at Small Catholic Colleges and the Desire to Count Hours of Aquinas Read During College and Then Argue About Who Has Read More."
August 14 at 3:42pm · Like · 18
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Matthew J. Peterson All true, and I complain about it all the time, but in the larger picture these places do pretty well at placing their top students. It drops off pretty quickly after that, but I think the complaints you bring up here (which I have shared for years) are a bit unfair when you zoom out.
August 14 at 3:44pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure By fullness of the Faith, we mean the full deposit of divine revelation, as handed down by the Church, not just some of it, and out of context. We mean divine revelation, not just natural revelation, and we mean sacred theology, not just metaphysics. This is the Faith that perfects reason, and this is the only Faith that perfects reason. That you do not really understand this is telling of the kind of education you have been indoctrinated into at TAC.
August 14 at 3:44pm · Like
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Thomas Hall Well, that was quite a ride. I love it, the righteous ambition, the studious intent, the frequent whimsy of the topics (Ptolemy's equant, really?).
August 14 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Aaron Gigliotti: the failure to launch business is also a matter of social circles. Those who got out quickly are already out and doing. But it's hard for any real liberal arts grads to crack the nut of the world out there, and for good reason. Basically the top students at these institutions are as good as anywhere, but it drops off quickly after that.
And let's not pretend that those who are quick to launch at other places are always happy ten years down the line, when they often come crashing back to earth.
But our circles deserve all the ridicule you give them.
August 14 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I just like to knock you guys down a peg. I tease because I love.
August 14 at 3:52pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I love the Pasadena title above.
So, what are you doing with all this knowledge you think you have? "I'm a janitor right now. I feel alienated from the modern world."
$%^#%&
August 14 at 3:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Aaron Gigliotti's: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch" wins the satire prize thus far. More entries requested.
August 14 at 3:55pm · Like · 9
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'll zoom out from your words "not even close" until I cannot see them anymore. I will pray for you, my brother in Christ.
August 14 at 3:56pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'm still zooming...
August 14 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It's just a simple statement of fact - the place has no electives, so everyone takes the same courses, and thus they require more St. Thomas and Aristotle than everyone else. But if you want to present evidence by combing through the curriculum that theology majors somewhere else read/study the same amount of text be my guest. It's not a claim of ultimate superiority. Just a cool aspect of TAC.
August 14 at 4:00pm · Like · 7
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JA Escalante "Much Ado About Nothing: On the Disproportion Between the Promise of Alluring TAC Thesis Titles and the Often Ho-Hum 30 Page Term Papers Which Follow Them"
August 14 at 4:01pm · Unlike · 22
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Daniel P. O'Connell I wish I could burn all the copies of my thesis, not just the one. I sent out with a very ambitious topic, but produced the most boring paper ever written.
August 14 at 4:12pm · Like
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JA Escalante ^ it wasn't at all boring, just pedantic
August 14 at 4:15pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante which is acceptable at that age
August 14 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're too kind.
August 14 at 4:16pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I felt like it was a failure of nerve and a retreat into scholastic nonsense at the end. But yes, I was only 22.
August 14 at 4:16pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell If I had it to do all over again, I would be solidly #TeamJamesJoyce instead of #TeamThomas.
August 14 at 4:19pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's a simple false statement of hubris.
August 14 at 4:21pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "A Noble Lie: Just Because I Read 3500 Pages of Aristotle Doesn't Mean I Have Anything New to Say About It."
August 14 at 4:26pm · Like · 8
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Peregrine Bonaventure "What I can write to get hired as a tutor because I have debt and can't get a real job."
August 14 at 4:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think what I say in the status -- for all the serious flaws, defects, and problems of the place, which I am overly fond of speaking about -- is its trump card.
All other aspects aside, it puts the student in direct contact with loads of St. Thomas and Aristotle. To me, that is its intellectual strength, and that for which I am especially grateful, since being in direct contact with both those two is a sine qua non for much else.
August 14 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson "We wanted our students to go out and change the world. We didn't realize that the world was Santa Paula." -- Marcus Berquist
August 14 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 22
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Joe Zepeda Nasty remarks, even for you, Peregrin Bonaventure.
August 14 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson But the former President of one of the St. Johns Colleges told me that he was envious of TAC grads for the way in which they were far more active in society than SJC grads. True story.
August 14 at 4:52pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure To say that no other college comes close to reading Aristotle and Thomas to the extent that TAC does is simply false. There are most certainly several colleges in the USA that come close, and Christendom surpasses it in both quantity and quality. Without the guidance of the Church and its sacred theology, the metaphysical base at TAC is dangerously out of context. I am puzzled why you do not see this. It's sad that TACers have to continually talk themselves up. If the place were on track, this psychological quirk would not have to happen. At least half of what's taught there is theo-narcissism.
August 14 at 4:58pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure "Jerkibus Maximus: how hiding your meaning behind latin helps reveal the personality of TAC."
August 14 at 5:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "'Who's that tripping over my bridge?' roared the troll."
August 14 at 5:00pm · Like · 13
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Joe Zepeda "hiding your meaning behind latin" - says "Peregrine Bonaventure."
August 14 at 5:02pm · Like · 17
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Peregrine Bonaventure Barbarian, making false claims. Hubris.
August 14 at 5:02pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Arrogant alum.
August 14 at 5:02pm · Like
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John Herreid This comment thread is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim".
August 14 at 5:09pm · Like · 9
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Joe Zepeda Take it back, Herreid! Nothing is almost as good as reading "Lucky Jim"!
August 14 at 5:09pm · Like · 7
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John Herreid I didn't say "as good".
August 14 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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John Herreid Time for some madrigals.
August 14 at 5:12pm · Like · 8
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Joe Zepeda As long as there's another tenor to cover for me, I'm good with that.
August 14 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure No sacred theology. No online courses. No plexi-glass backboards.
August 14 at 5:17pm · Like
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Joe Zepeda No shrubberies!
August 14 at 5:17pm · Like · 16
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Liam Collins I've tried to be patient with you several times, Peregrine, but it actually seems pretty ludicrous to me for you to go on about TACers talking themselves up, hiding behind language, exaggerating, and being arrogant.
How about this for an example of caring excessively about TAC's reputation: savagely attacking TAC and most everyone associated with it on close to every FB thread I've ever seen you participate in.
And now that I've gone and looked up just what one might mean by "theo-narcissism" I see that this use of language to talk about "at least half of what's taught there" is a fairly incredible exaggeration.
I don't think the place is perfect. I think it has some serious difficulties, especially as it loses the leadership of its founders and attempts to continue to grow and sort itself out. Can we just relax and talk somewhat playfully and joyfully about this various and ramshackle attempt that all of us broken human beings (particularly those of us who are united by the Catholic faith, from whatever school) are making to reach our eternal savior?
August 14 at 5:28pm · Unlike · 16
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Peregrine Bonaventure No shrubberies? Liam: are you the guy who gave the commencement address last year and didn't mention the Church?
August 14 at 5:30pm · Like
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Joe Zepeda See, Liam, at Christendom they teach people to greet the brethren with a holy kiss...I mean, a criterion in hand and the spleen to apply it!
August 14 at 5:34pm · Like · 3
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Liam Collins haha. Nope. You're the guy who's misremembering my speech.
August 14 at 5:34pm · Unlike · 14
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Joe Zepeda Here's a tip, Peregrine. Google "liam collins commencement thomas aquinas", then do a page search on his speech for "devotion to the teaching Church". We have a winner! Looks like there is a secret conspiracy among the students to care about the Church, because we already know infallibly that the College doesn't.
August 14 at 5:37pm · Unlike · 15
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's right, O, great apologist, he forgot to mention the second person of the Blessed Trinity. Where's the Faith?
August 14 at 5:44pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure And let's never forget the importance of including sacred theology in a curriculum.
August 14 at 5:46pm · Like
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John Herreid Is this all part of some East Coast vs West Coast Thomist battle? Better stop before someone gets hurt in a drive-by dissertationing.
August 14 at 5:46pm · Unlike · 14
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Christopher Sebastian Dang, never knew that one had to include every aspect of the Catholic Church in a commencement address to be considered a faithful Catholic. Liam, I don't envy you.
August 14 at 5:47pm · Unlike · 13
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Peregrine Bonaventure And what about the Catholic Church?
August 14 at 5:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peregrine is mistaken:
http://www.christendom.edu/academics/reading-list.php
Christendom College | Undergraduate Reading List
www.christendom.edu
ENGL 101: Literature of Western Civilization IThe IliadThe Odyssey Poetics Antig...See More
August 14 at 5:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings."
August 14 at 5:50pm · Edited · Like · 21
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Michael Beitia peruse the reading list, and stand firm by your claim, and the 8 most hated words in the English language
August 14 at 5:50pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, Liam was the one who gave the commencement address last year, with but one oblique reference to "teaching" Church, and n'er a reference to Catholic, lest it offend the backers, and no reference to Christ of his Holy Mother, Mary. Not to mention the curriculum which lacks sacred theology. It's the hubris, fellas. The hubris. The wagon-circling and the un-Godly hubris.
August 14 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "let's go through the text line by line"
August 14 at 5:52pm · Like · 4
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Peter Halpin At USF, I was once assigned a reading from a volume called,"Anti-Hegemonic, Post, Post Marxists Essays". So kiss it, all you Thomist zombies!!!
August 14 at 5:52pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson I heard that at Christendom you can't receive communion unless you swear on a Bible wrapped in the Confederate flag that Abraham Lincoln was an evil man.
August 14 at 5:54pm · Unlike · 17
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Christopher Sebastian I remember now Liam coming up to me cackling before giving his speech: "Hah, Chris, guess what, I'm going to purposefully not mention the word Catholic, just because I can, and I don't want to offend the backers!" I then asked who the backers were. He gave me sideways glances before darting up onto the stage. #thingsthatneverhappened
August 14 at 5:54pm · Unlike · 7
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Michael Beitia I heard at Christendom, you can't give a commencement speech without using "magisterium" 47 times
August 14 at 5:55pm · Unlike · 13
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Peregrine Bonaventure Straw man. Is TAC even Catholic? You'd never know it by many of the theses or commencement addresses. They can mean different things to different audiences. It's like code language, but it's really cowardly, and the gutting of sacred theology and the fullness of revelation.
August 14 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Does anyone know where Mr. Bonaventure can find a good grinder for his ax?
August 14 at 5:57pm · Like · 6
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Christopher Sebastian "A Flute Player's Madrigal: On the Cowardly Hiding of Anti-Catholic Teachings Behind the Writing of Aristotle"
August 14 at 5:58pm · Like · 7
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Liam Collins well, I find this all amusing, gentlemen, but I need to log off and work on finding a house to share with other guys who still haven't found a job with their education. I'll try to spend ten or twenty years verifying that they're really Catholic while I'm at it.
August 14 at 5:58pm · Unlike · 14
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Peregrine Bonaventure Liam: did the Dean of Students edit your address for "appropriateness"?
August 14 at 5:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Where are you looking Liam Collins?
August 14 at 5:59pm · Like
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Liam Collins Matt: Wichita, KS.
August 14 at 5:59pm · Unlike · 2
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Liam Collins I'm about to start classes at WSU in aerospace engineering.
August 14 at 6:00pm · Unlike · 12
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Christopher Sebastian That brain tho.
August 14 at 6:02pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I would find it troublesome hiring someone who went to a college whose alum seem to collectively boast that no other place comes close to reading the Thomas that they do. That's just messed up.
August 14 at 6:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sound about like what a magisterium-less graduate full of hubris would do, Liam Collins
August 14 at 6:02pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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John Herreid That's usually the top question when hiring at most jobs. "How did your college read Thomas Aquinas?"
August 14 at 6:04pm · Edited · Like · 20
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Mike Potemra I have been in love with TAC for many years. I'm thrilled they still put out this list of great senior theses!
August 14 at 6:15pm · Like · 7
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Peregrine Bonaventure Most firms have no problem hiring someone who believes that they went to the most Catholic College in America. Catholics are cool. But TACers, in hiring circles, are seen as believing they are the best Aristotelean-Thomists and that this is the best kind of Catholic. This bizarre falsehood is a disservice on many levels. But we live in a free country and you can behave this way if you wish. Don't say I didn't try to tell you.
August 14 at 6:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.brainondigital.com/.../habits-highly.../
The Habits of Highly Effective Internet Trolls - Brain on Digital
www.brainondigital.com
Here’s a quick test to find out if you’re an Internet troll: Read the statement ...See More
August 14 at 6:22pm · Unlike · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson Overall, strong positive associations emerged among online commenting frequency, trolling enjoyment, and troll identity, pointing to a common construct underlying the measures. Both studies revealed similar patterns of relations between trolling and the Dark Tetrad of personality...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/.../pii/S0191886914000324
Trolls just want to have fun
www.sciencedirect.com
August 14 at 6:23pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides. Last year, for instance, we learned that by hurling insults and inciting discord in online comment sections, so-called Internet trolls (who are frequently anonymous) have a polarizing effect on audiences, leading to politicization, rather than deeper understanding of scientific topics.
That’s bad, but it’s nothing compared with what a new psychology paper has to say about the personalities of trolls themselves...
http://www.slate.com/.../internet_troll_personality_study...
Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic
www.slate.com
In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology has made some strides....See More
August 14 at 6:25pm · Unlike · 8
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, of course, TACers are pre-eminent. That goes without saying. There, are you happy now?
August 14 at 6:28pm · Like
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Anne Marie don 't you think that's a little harsh, Peterson?
August 14 at 6:28pm · Like
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Anne Marie love the slideshow, btw. thanks for sharing!
August 14 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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Anne Marie oh, ouch. Just glanced through all comments.Backing away slowly
August 14 at 6:34pm · Like · 12
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Matthew J. Peterson I think it's rather lenient, all things considered.
August 14 at 6:34pm · Edited · Unlike · 11
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Matthew J. Peterson I would be open to looking at any evidence that some other institution requires their students, even within a major, to study more than TAC does re the two authors in question. Certainly no other institution requires as much study of the two of ALL their students as TAC does. But this isn't really a big deal except for the trolling.
This fact is not directly related to eminence, pre- or otherwise, but I do think it is one of the aspects of TAC, as flawed as it is, that is worth noting and praising. It is a wonderful thing in this day and age to put students in direct contact with that much Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas.
August 14 at 6:39pm · Edited · Unlike · 8
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Peregrine Bonaventure Matt, you are free to back up your claim that TAC is generating the best Catholic thinkers and/or simply the best thinkers... But you never seem to able to, despite your amazingly arrogant claims. That's the issue. It's an issue because it bears on Catholic thought. Best regards.
August 14 at 6:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I never claimed that, of course. But I am close to claiming you may suffer from a trolling illness of some kind...
August 14 at 6:41pm · Edited · Unlike · 10
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Peregrine Bonaventure What are you claiming, then, Matt? Are you claiming that no other College in America comes close to reading as much Aristotle and Thomas as students do at TAC, and that this is good for a Catholic college? And that this claim is "arrogant"?
August 14 at 6:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Have you sought help for your obsessive fixation with TAC?
August 14 at 7:03pm · Unlike · 15
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Kevin Gallagher The best Catholic thinkers come from Yale. Just ask Elliot Milco
August 14 at 7:07pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia I mean, I went there, and I have no idea who gives the commencement, or what is said. Hell, I can't even remember who gave ours. Does it keep you up at night wondering how to "bring down those arrogant TAC grads"? Do you get tired of beating the same, sad drum?
August 14 at 7:07pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And Sex Week will enter this convo in 3, 2, 1...
August 14 at 7:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia sex week
August 14 at 7:09pm · Like · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson I heard Elliot Milco thinks that William F. Buckley is the greatest Catholic thinker of our time, so maybe you are right, Kevin Gallagher.
August 14 at 7:10pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson #TrolLOLpalooza
August 14 at 7:11pm · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia ^I see what you did there^
August 14 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, it is eminently -- no -- pre-eminently clear, that TAC produces the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... And if anyone reading this thread has a mind for academia, or Catholic thought, and is unfamiliar with this fraudulent little college, do not be misled by the erudite sounding titles of these seniors' theses. 'Tis nothing but misinformed theological speculation run amok. Send your kids to State College, and teach them how to keep the faith. Lest they graduate and go off into the world and are forced to make an existence by pretending they are the smartest human around the dinner table.
August 14 at 7:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you absolutely OOOOOOOZe charity
August 14 at 7:16pm · Unlike · 8
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Matthew J. Peterson I think parents should send their children to Yale, where they will learn humility and grace.
August 14 at 7:17pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I think they should send them to Christendom, where Magisterium they can learn magisterium how to think magisterium critically but still be magisterium faithful to the ...... the..... teaching authority of the Church
August 14 at 7:18pm · Unlike · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson But maybe TAC does produce the biggest jerks in all of Christendom... college.
August 14 at 7:19pm · Edited · Unlike · 16
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
August 14 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I keed, I keed - I joke with you all.
August 14 at 7:19pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I am a jerk
TAC produced me
therefore, etc. QED
August 14 at 7:20pm · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'm not the one making false claims about academic superiority. That's truly pathetic.
August 14 at 7:23pm · Like
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Christopher Sebastian Honestly, I think if you just go and read the original post again, you might be enlightened as to claims made or, as in this case, claims not made.
August 14 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure The original post reads: "No other college in America requires as much Aristotle and Thomas as TAC... And its fruits reveal your ignorance and yes I am arrogant."
In fact, the college requires virtually no sacred theology, and teaches practically nothing Catholic in the entire freshman year. It does not teach Sacred Theology; it does not teach the Faith. Yet, the Faith is the only perfection of Reason. Hence. What we are left with is what Bethea says above, which is a public manifestation of the flaws of a rational animal not educated in the Faith.
August 14 at 7:36pm · Like
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Christopher Sebastian What's your definition of Sacred Theology?? And how can you claim it doesn't teach the Faith?
August 14 at 7:38pm · Like
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Christopher Sebastian Actually, I fear I made have fallen for what Matthew was trying to warn regarding...trolling. I immediately regret trying to start a regular conversation.
August 14 at 7:39pm · Like · 12
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Matthew J. Peterson Peregrine Bonaventure: you have made me defend my alma mater today, which is not something I am in the habit of doing, and for this, I thank you.
The status is kinda jokey: "weep for your ignorance/pray for my arrogance" had a nice over the top ring to it. This isn't entirely serious stuff. If it was entirely serious, I would have some serious issues. But that should be obvious.
The claim, of course, simply stands as true until you put some evidence where your mouth is.
August 14 at 7:40pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Many people read the senior thesis titles and say things like "Wow, I wish I was reading and studying this stuff." The titles are one of the selling points of TAC. And so is the way in which it puts so much Aristotle and St. Thomas right in front of student faces.
August 14 at 7:41pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Peregrine, can I call you Scott? I like Scott better. Are you on the spectrum?
August 14 at 7:43pm · Like · 8
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Kevin Gallagher Psh whatever you guys are like amateurs at pretentiousness
August 14 at 7:44pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia well the entire East Coast has us beat.
August 14 at 7:44pm · Unlike · 3
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Kevin Gallagher to the mannerism born
August 14 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer An investigation of unity and complexity...tasty enterprise.
August 14 at 7:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Plus, Scott, I am *not* a rational animal. If you had read your St. Thomas you would know that I'm an "intellectual substance, conjoined to matter"
August 14 at 7:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia (and it's not "Bethea" it's Beitia. I know you do it on purpose. Are you sure you're not on the spectrum?)
August 14 at 7:53pm · Like
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Joel HF Pater Edmund, welcome to the REAL best FB thread ever.
August 14 at 7:57pm · Unlike · 9
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Joel HF <munches popcorn>
August 14 at 7:57pm · Unlike · 14
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Peregrine Bonaventure Matthew J. Peterson, I hope you do not truly believe that you have defended your college, especially when you begin up top with such a typically offensive remark. You have not defended your college. But you have helped shed light on it. TAC was founded by a group of extremely arrogant academics, who were reacting to a socio-sacred phenomenon which occured in the 1960s and 70s; and in their arrogrance, they over-reacted. The proposal of TAC, as a result, has no basis in reality today. Due to this hubris reactionism, TAC alum have had little impact on the lifestream of conservative social thought in America, because it is reactionary and defensive. TAC is simply unable to defend its claim that it offers the world a truly Catholic liberal education, because no such thing exists, as the College proposes. This is an issue, because of TAC's claim to have an association with Catholicism.
August 14 at 8:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
Play Video
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
August 14 at 8:56pm · Unlike · 15
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Matthew Reiser My lord what a huge class. (A comment that really only makes serious sense to members of the tribe.)
August 14 at 9:05pm · Like · 3
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Jacob Alexander My goodness what an attractive class.
August 14 at 9:11pm · Like · 7
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Daniel P. O'Connell *Old TAC'er interjects* ... "In MY day ..."
August 14 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I love the habit of publishing the senior theses' titles. Congrats to the class of '14.
Funny thing: My title was *ahem* edited for the newsletter.
August 14 at 9:36pm · Unlike · 10
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Bekah Sims Andrews Duda......don't leave a gal hanging.....do share.
August 14 at 10:06pm · Like · 8
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Matthew Starr Beckwith Three words: Wyoming Catholic College
August 14 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick can anyone tell me the percentage of TAC alumni that enter the religious life? Must be pretty low since it entirely neglects the faith. Does anyone also know the number of conversions that take place during the student's time at TAC?
August 14 at 10:45pm · Like · 9
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^satire?
August 14 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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Dominique Martin @Peregrine-- you can think what you want about TAC, and we all know the place isn't perfect. It's nothing but amusing, though, to hear Dr MacArthur and Mr Berquist described as "extremely arrogant"! Though I am, of course, being a TAC grad myself, so arrogant I can't see how arrogant all the other alum are.
August 14 at 10:45pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Dominique Martin We may be totally non-Catholic, but at least we can recognize satire when we see it!
August 14 at 10:46pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I really like it how all the people who hold up Christendom as superior to TAC on these Facebook threads have about as much tact as Attila the Hun.
August 14 at 10:47pm · Like · 9
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Dominique Martin Who's Attila the Hun? I went to TAC so I have zero knowledge of history
August 14 at 10:48pm · Unlike · 12
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Edward Langley I'm not quite sure, I've seen him mentioned in P.G. Wodehouse's stories. Perhaps he's some fictional bad guy like Darth Vader.
August 14 at 10:49pm · Like · 13
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Peregrine Bonaventure Blah-blah-blah... It's funny how the Founding Fathers of America realized the importance of the citizenry being able to live under a Constitution that could be Amended. They realized their human weakness; but the founders of a College set their charter in stone because they presumed themselves to be perfect. Needless to say, the graduates of TAC are doing an excellent job of cementing its reputation of being a hot bed of arrogant jerks who argue like women, and women who argue like men.
August 14 at 10:52pm · Like
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Dominique Martin What I just don't understand is the point of that whole last sentence.
August 14 at 10:55pm · Unlike · 11
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Bekah Sims Andrews You say "argue like a woman" as if it were a bad thing.
August 14 at 10:56pm · Like · 16
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Lauren Ogrodnick Pretty sure I've never heard the founders say that they thought what they had done was perfect. In fact I had heard some regrets and changes and disappointments. Were they proud with what they had done, yes! Does that mean they thought it was the perfect and the climax of all life, no!
August 14 at 10:56pm · Unlike · 3
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Dominique Martin You're not doing your Alma Mater's reputation any favors yourself....
August 14 at 10:56pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Being a TACer, I learned the important things, like how to spell "Wodehouse", which alcoholic beverages to drink, how to get back into the dorms after curfew.
August 14 at 10:57pm · Like · 15
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Liam Collins look, I'm willing to grant that McArthur, Berquist, and Neumayr were incredibly brazen. I'm not sure that TAC did deliver to me on all, or even a lot of what I took it to be promising. And I think it is possible there to come away confused about what is Catholicism and what is pagan philosophy, and where the two meet.
But it was and is a wonderful place, full of kind, prayerful people, who love Jesus Christ. I learned valuable things there, struggled with real questions there, and I am grateful to the founders and to everyone else who has made it to be.
And I just can't see any reason for all of us, who do share the Mass, the Sacraments, allegiance to Rome, belief that Christ was God and that his teachings, as contained in both Scripture and tradition, will guide us to heaven, to be anything but friends.
August 14 at 11:00pm · Unlike · 19
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Daniel P. O'Connell How to get back into dorms after curfew: LIFE SKILLZ.
August 14 at 11:03pm · Like · 11
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Adrw Lng Soul face
August 14 at 11:10pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz I thank you for these threads...much too long and pointless to get involved now, at least gives a glimpse of people with whom I will not be interacting with in the future And I get consolation from FB, "We're sorry that you've had this experience." So am I.
TAC is not perfect, of course not. Nor is it for everyone. Nor is it the best way for each individual to be educated. But it is the best school for many of us. And it certainly is not inferior to any in its "Catholicity". The insinuation that somehow it is anti-theology, or weak on the faith is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard levelled against it.
I originally wrote more, but why? I don't see a productive discussion here.
August 14 at 11:11pm · Unlike · 17
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Benjamin Block So...just speaking as a non-TAC grad here, I want to say that I think TAC is a fantastic institution, which has produced some really wonderful people (for the record, I'd say the same for WCC or for Christendom). Yes, in some rare instances, I have met TACers who are not so nice, but in those cases, I would blame their own personal choices rather than their teachers or the institution--just as I sincerely hope that nobody thinks ill of my own alma maters simply because of my own personal defects. Ignore the trolls, and keep up the good work, in humility and charity...
August 14 at 11:14pm · Unlike · 15
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Claire Keeler I remember jake gutierrez's thesis was called "Do Angels Move the Planets" but when they posted the defense schedule, it said "angles" instead of "angels". It was a head-scratcher either way....
August 14 at 11:40pm · Like · 6
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Claire Keeler Am I the only one who reads these every year and thinks that a good number of them are just a little over the top? I mean, God bless TAC and all who dwell there, but come on! It is hard to read a lot of these with a straight face. I still think TAC is the best college ever, but the thesis titles are so often... silly. (Bracing for backlash)
August 14 at 11:43pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Claire Keeler Whoa.... starting to read the comments now.....
August 14 at 11:46pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Part of the fun was making silly titles
August 14 at 11:58pm · Like · 5
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Claire Keeler I'm kind of regretting being so critical of TAC thesis titles after reading all these comments. I feel like I've just been through a war and I just want some peace. So I'll amend my statement above to say that I understand why TAC thesis titles can sound so convoluted- it's weighty and abstract stuff we wrestle with there. Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter and it's easier to come up with names for papers you write there. So, no offense meant to the class of 2014 or any other grads.
August 15 at 12:02am · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler Lauren, I had the hardest time coming up with a title I liked, but I didn't spend too much time on that problem because my thesis itself was very unsatisfactory so who gives a crap about he title? I think I ended up with "In Virtue of What do We Call Love of God 'Love'?" I still wince thinking about how badly I botched that topic.
August 15 at 12:05am · Like · 1
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Joe Zepeda "Most other institutions deal with much more concrete subject matter" Ludicrous titles for papers are a plague of all academia, Claire.
August 15 at 12:06am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Claire Keeler I'm just thinking about my sister's recent microbiology PhD dissertation at Carnegie Mellon. There was nothing whimsical or wistful or lilting or far-reaching or punny in her title. I'm not even sure it was technically English, but it sounded quite sciency and straightforward.
August 15 at 12:09am · Unlike · 3
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Joe Zepeda Oh, right. Take a gander at some humanities dissertation titles (or rather, don't, just take my word for it that they are either straightforwardly pedantic and jargony in a silly way, or just plain silly).
August 15 at 12:22am · Like · 1
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Michael Grumbine Mr. Bonaventure - while I retain some small admiration for your sheer stubbornness in the cry of 'hubris', your comments have now plunged clearly into bare insult, and do your position no credit.
I realize that this is the internet and all that, but I would wager that your Christian vocabulary + trollish behavior on this thread tend to engender a strong sense of disgust in the average reader.
At the very least, when you throw out phrases like, "I will pray for you, my brother in Christ"... well, let's just rip a line here, and say that I do not think it means what you think it means.
August 15 at 12:29am · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti I just popped back in after spending a few hours on the planet Earth. What a comment thread! If anyone considering attending TAC or Christendom stumbles across this post, I'm pretty sure Steubenville can expect an application. You guys are nuts!
August 15 at 12:45am · Like · 5
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Claire Keeler that actually is how steubenville gets all its applicants
August 15 at 12:46am · Unlike · 12
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Joe Zepeda "I thought Steubenville was the only one of these three where people started speaking in tongues...now I'm confused."
August 15 at 12:47am · Unlike · 4
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Patrick Laurence Man, if you've drawn Michael Grumbine out of the woodwork, you *know* you have stepped over the line.
August 15 at 12:58am · Like · 5
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Timothy Halpin Wow! I'm glad I didn't go to college.
August 15 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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John Kunz Katie - mine was quite edited as well!
August 15 at 2:06am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Reading this thread was the most fun I've had in a long time.
August 15 at 2:56am · Like · 3
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Monica Murphy Just finished teaching my first day of classes this year. This comment thread was perfect Friday fodder for a gin and tonic! Thanks, everyone - with a special shout out to Peregrine and Matthew! . . . still chuckling . . .
August 15 at 6:36am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Today being the Solemnity of the Assumption and all, I give thanks to God for my Blessed Mother, who gave me divine life, but also for my earthly mother who gave me natural life, and for TAC, my mother in the in the life of the mind. Perhaps I shall write a treatise in the spirit of St Louis de Monfort on "True Devotion to TAC." So for example I might say:
«These great souls filled with grace and zeal will be oppose the enemies of God who are raging on all sides. They will be exceptionally devoted to the TAC, and illumined by her light... With one hand they will give battle, overthrowing and crushing Platonists, Newtonians, Molinists, and Thomists of a more lax observance... With the other hand they will build a stronghold of true philosophy, namely TAC.... By word and example they will draw all men to a true devotion to her and though this will make many enemies... This seems to have been foretold by Psalm 58: "The Lord will reign in Jacob and all the ends of the earth. They will be converted towards evening and they will be as hungry as dogs and they will go around the city to find something to eat." This city around which men will roam at the end of the world seeking true Aristotelianism and the appeasement of the hunger they have for Thomism of the strict observance is Thomas Aquinas College, which is called "The City of Thomists"»
Except of course I would never actually say anything like that.
August 15 at 8:38am · Edited · Unlike · 23
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Peregrine Bonaventure The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive.
I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.
August 15 at 9:29am · Like
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Joel HF Peregrine stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this TAC grad.' #magesterium #humblerthanthou
August 15 at 9:40am · Unlike · 12
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Pater Edmund Does anyone have a recording of the mid-day report in which Dirk Kennedy or Michael D Byrne or someone called up the Christendom admissions office?
August 15 at 9:46am · Edited · Like · 9
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Michael Beitia I think Holy Mother the Church might not want your thanks for your "academic" formation.
August 15 at 9:58am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I still don't get this incomplete presentation of the faith thing. Church fathers, doctors, scripture, Mass 4x a day, confession before and after each mass, daily Eucharist Adoration, 2 League of Mary Praesedium, evening consecrations, daily Rosary, a Jesuit and. Dominican on campus at the same time! Again not to mention the religious that have come out of TAC (percentage wise and just even respected around the globe wise). And all those things are the daily/weekly organized Faith formation opportunities.
August 15 at 10:15am · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia ^stop trying to be reasonable. It just shows your arrogance^
August 15 at 10:16am · Like · 10
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Peregrine Bonaventure Bethea, you do not have the authority to make such "judgements" -- which only underscore the ill-formation of your alma mater, as do your arrogant remarks which are not arguments. On the issue of Faith, TAC does not instruct Sacred Theology in its fullness, but under a guise not only that it does, but does so in a pre-eminent manner. Many Catholic institutions participate in Mass, but without such false claims. I hope you can see how this answers your question.
August 15 at 10:23am · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele I can't believe this is still going on... just commenting so I can get updates...
August 15 at 10:27am · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure This is still going on because TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which it was founded.
August 15 at 10:31am · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick What does it mean to instruct Sacred Theology in it's fullness?
August 15 at 10:31am · Unlike · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews you do not have the authority to make such "judgements"..........your arrogant remarks which are not arguments.
**********************************************************************
Self awareness is your friend.
August 15 at 10:33am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Instructing Sacred Theology in its fullness means to instruct Sacred Theology in the context of the fullness of divinely revealed truths, and not just a partial set thereof, and not principally natural theology under the guise that this is the fullness of Sacred Theology or the pedagogical basis of what and how the Church teaches.
Bekah, I am not the one making the false, misleading and arrogant claims that TAC and its apologists are making, so your comment is on the level of kindergarten argumentation.
August 15 at 10:38am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So practically speaking what does that look like? Not A partial set, so does that mean all of the divine revelations of Christ through the ages?
August 15 at 10:43am · Unlike · 1
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Nina Rachele Let me preface this by saying that I think Christendom is a good school and if I had children I would by no means argue them out of attending there if they wanted to go. (you guys have a much better library, too) But if we are discussing mistaken founding principles, how do you defend the Christendom administration's open discouragement of non-Christian and Protestant applicants? I am curious because that policy seems to me to be mistaken in the extreme.
August 15 at 10:51am · Unlike · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Faith perfecting reason...aside from being disillusioned to think that that was always the emphasis I also thought that's what made us not go crazy and all become depressed sophomore year with Augustine and Predestination! (Well that and the exercise of Faith through the Sacraments etc)
August 15 at 10:57am · Unlike · 2
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Nina Rachele I am also curious as to whether "teaching Sacred Theology in its fullness" as you have described it something which is, er, actually possible. I think TAC's emphasis on natural philosophy is just that--an emphasis, which has its own merits. It prepares TACers better than some other schools to engage with others on certain issues, and it provides a good foundation for further study in theology. The Christendom emphasis on Church history also has its own benefits and prepares them better than TACers to engage with others on mistaken notions they might jave on Church history.
August 15 at 10:58am · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure It means presenting the relationship between Faith and reason in proper manner and context, so that sacred or divine revelation and Faith, in our academic formation as Catholics, is the perfection of reason; not the other way around. Faith is the perfection of reason. The science of Faith is sacred theology. The content of sacred theology is revelation, in the deposit of the Faith... in what the Church teaches, in its dogma and in Scripture. So this is the shape of Catholic education. Faith perfecting reason. TAC does not go this way. It does the opposite. Maybe not in the sacramental life of the students, but certainly in the curriculum. It lays out a basis of natural theology, which is a rational metaphysics, as the perfection of Faith.
And I was not aware of this kind of discrimination at Christendom College. I know Protestant and Evangelical Christians who have gone there.
August 15 at 10:58am · Like
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Nina Rachele *have
August 15 at 10:58am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nina, the Church has been teaching all things relating to Faith and Reason in this way for centuries. Then, in the 1960s and 1970s, a few guys got together and over-reacted to some bad things that were going on in the world, and this was the birth of TAC, where they presume that supernatural Faith can be perfected by reason and natural theology.
August 15 at 11:01am · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele I am very glad to hear that, when I went to my admissions interview in 2006 I was informed that they were only looking for Catholic applicants.
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Peregrine Bonaventure I do not disbelieve you, and I am sorry to hear that. Perhaps you were being interviewed by a bad apple?
August 15 at 11:02am · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele The conversation did seem a little strange to me... it was the last straw in my decision not to even apply, despite the very tempting library.
August 15 at 11:04am · Unlike · 1
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Dominique Martin "Peregrine", do you realize that you are like someone giving a book review of a book they didn't read? And that someone who has read the book can tell you didn't read it? That's what these threads with you are always like.
August 15 at 11:06am · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, that is a tempting library.
August 15 at 11:06am · Like
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Michael Beitia again with the "Bethea". who the hell is that person? see, I use my REAL name, so I would appreciate the consideration to SPELL it correctly
August 15 at 11:08am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Dominique, no I did not realize that, but thank you for pointing that out. The thing is, I did read the book, and I have seen the movie. And this is not a book or a movie. TAC inverts the relationship between Faith and Reason and produces the opposite of intellectual humility.
August 15 at 11:09am · Like
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Nina Rachele I don't think "Reason perfecting Faith" is the correct way to view the TAC venture, but rather "Reason illuminating and supporting Faith."
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Michael Beitia shhhh, you'll let him in on our gnosis
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well, Nina, that is a subtle nuance, but the thing is, Faith perfects reason. Reason does not illuminate the Faith or support the Faith. Faith is reasonable, and Faith perfects reason.
And I always thought Bethea was illuminati. TAC gives that impression.
August 15 at 11:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, will you just spell it right?
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Nina Rachele I invite you to take a good look at past years of TAC thesis titles besides this, and you will see that there are a number of students who have written on this exact topic. I can think of at least one in my own class (2010) and I am sure there have been others.
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Christopher Sebastian Isn't all of Scripture divine revelation? It's such a shame that TAC never has you read the Bib...oh wait, all of Freshman theology.
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Michael Beitia without the magisterium however. (I beat Scott to the punch)
August 15 at 11:13am · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nina, the problem is the TAC curriculum; it is not the value of the theses written. If a curriculum is not set up formally so that Faith perfects reason, then what is the quality of reason that "illumines" the Faith?
August 15 at 11:14am · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Peregrine, after reading your comments here, I have six friends who have decided to convert to Catholicism and immediately apply to Christendom. You are a wonderful ambassador for the faith. Now, kindly step away from the keyboard and answer your door. Do whatever the nice men in the white jackets tell you.
August 15 at 11:15am · Unlike · 9
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Dominique Martin Really? I thought you only read the first couple chapters? If you read he whole book you will have a legitimate basis for a review. You don't have to like the book after reading the whole thing, but at least you'd know what you're talking about.
August 15 at 11:17am · Unlike · 2
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Dominique Martin Let's not do the TAC vs. Cdom thing!! They can both stand on their own merits.
August 15 at 11:18am · Like · 6
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Nina Rachele I am thinking primarily of Newman's Development of Christian Doctrine when I speak of reason "illuminating"-- that is, we can say there has been a development of doctrine and further understanding of the Faith without saying that the Faith has altered or changed. In the same way, TAC's emphasis on natural theology does not mean that the supernatural effects of grace have been somehow negated or argued against. did that make sense as an analogy? I am not sure I am saying it quite right...
August 15 at 11:20am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia don't bother. this drum-beating is two years old.
August 15 at 11:20am · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Christopher, Scripture is only part of revelation. Again, it is context.
Aaron, you demonstrate quite well that TAC is unable to defend the "principles" on which its curriculum was founded.
Dominique, again you are not addressing the central issue here, which is that TAC was founded by over-reactionaries who established a curriculum which does not place Faith and Reason in proper context, and this has resulted in a character of hubris reasoning in its students, instead of students informed by Faith which has perfected their reason.
It is clear that TAC is unable to address this central issue, and I rest my case.
August 15 at 11:21am · Like
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Michael Beitia endless repetition isn't "resting" Scott
August 15 at 11:21am · Unlike · 8
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Aaron Gigliotti Yeah, I didn't go to TAC, smart guy.
August 15 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"
August 15 at 11:22am · Unlike · 11
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Peregrine Bonaventure Bethea, resting is resting. TAC is unable to account for itself, because it's curriculum is ill-founded, on this central issue of the relationship between Faith and Reason.
August 15 at 11:23am · Like
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Nina Rachele Off to do an errand, have fun kids...
August 15 at 11:25am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti If I were one of those fundamentalists who hates the Catholic Church and believes the Pope is the Antichrist, and someone told me to design a bot that would pose as a Catholic in order to discredit the Church, I would design something very similar to Peregrine Bonaventure.
August 15 at 11:25am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia His name is Scott
August 15 at 11:27am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott-bot
August 15 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh Nina! You just added another reading that I had forgotten about!! (Must be because it got lost in seminar!) Does it count that I had a Dominican priest co-lead my already awesome senior Theology classes on the Sacraments? Does that make the context better?
August 15 at 11:29am · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'm sorry you guys aren't able to mount a credible defense of the curriculum.
August 15 at 11:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm sorry you can't spell. Or be coherent.
August 15 at 11:37am · Like · 3
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Alex Lessard Trolls aside, through the unsurpassed curriculum and excellents tutors at TAC, our daughter (in the 2014 list) was able to explore the relationship between science & theology in a more profound way than I saw in many years of grad school in theology at a major Catholic university. I don't know of any other place that builds that cultivated freedom of thought into its program. Certainly not at the other schools mentioned here, despite their other merits.
August 15 at 11:38am · Unlike · 17
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Ursi Engebretsen Wow...ouch...a lot of these comments are real encouraging to someone who's going back to TAC in a week to start Junior year...
August 15 at 11:40am · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Really, Mr. Bethea?
I think the concern is very, very coherent. 1) the curriculum at TAC does not give pre-eminence of place to the fullness of faith and sacred theology, but gives this place to natural theology; 2) this leads to intellectual hubris, and an imperfection of reason, (as is demonstrated by many of your comments).
August 15 at 11:43am · Like
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Michael Beitia there is a time for argument, and a time for the club. the time for argument has long passed
August 15 at 11:44am · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's a dodge, Bethea. TAC has never answered this concern, because the concern is well-founded, and TAC is off-base.
August 15 at 11:47am · Like
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Adrw Lng "By its own essential character, theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man, for it has in a pre-eminent way that which is desired in all of them. Liberal education undertaken by Christians and ordered to theology turns out to be liberal education in its fullness."
--Founding Document of Thomas Aquinas College
August 15 at 11:47am · Unlike · 8
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Michael Beitia ^as translated from hieroglyphics^
August 15 at 11:48am · Unlike · 8
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Peregrine Bonaventure Mr. Adrw Lng, the passage you cite is lip service. The use the word "theology" in the passage you cite effectively translates into "natural theology" in the TAC curriculum. Moreover, at no point in its curriculum, does TAC actually teach its students what Catholic theology really means or is, hence it does it accurately teach what the relationship between faith and reason is. This is manifestly obvious.
Bethea, you are a thug.
August 15 at 11:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia a thug that can spell, Mr. Weinberg
August 15 at 11:55am · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia 4-0-0 S C T A C (you'll have to imagine the gang signs) Matthew J. Peterson can demonstrate
August 15 at 11:55am · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yup, you're a thug.
August 15 at 11:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm glad we both agree on that
August 15 at 11:57am · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia (he says to the thread hijacking rattling drum)
August 15 at 11:58am · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, TAC is not able to address the concern in its curriculum. It hides its head in the sand. The concern is that it misrepresents Catholic theology, which undercuts the principle of Faith perfecting reason, and supports intellectual hubris.
Witness Beithea.
August 15 at 12:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Closer. don't you have some health and human servicing to do?
August 15 at 12:02pm · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thug.
August 15 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia like most of the rest of this, just because you say it, doesn't make it true
August 15 at 12:11pm · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure What makes it true is a reference to clubbing as opposed to simply addressing a valid concern.
Again, the concern is that the TAC curriculum does not portray Sacred Theology correctly, but replaces it with natural theology.
August 15 at 12:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have my gang-banging minions to respond to your "concerns". And if you had read your Aristotle, you'd recognize the reference
August 15 at 12:16pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Your comment is ridiculous.
August 15 at 12:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you're just now figuring that out?
August 15 at 12:19pm · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure OK, this is really a joke.
August 15 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It is. Glad you caught on.
August 15 at 12:21pm · Unlike · 6
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Christopher Sebastian FIN?
See Translation
August 15 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Joe Zepeda Don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll, don't feed the troll troll troll.
August 15 at 12:47pm · Like · 8
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John Hall Oh my.
August 15 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Joe Zepeda "No longer receive notifications about Matthew J. Peterson's link" - check!
August 15 at 1:14pm · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma " it's more of a Nietzschean "eternal return of the same"
Or Heraclitus, "The dog returns to it's own vomit"
August 15 at 1:16pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Grumbine Your inference, as usual, is so right, Patrick - I should've stayed in the shadows despite the marginally clever troll.
'Marginally' conceded only because I'm now weighing the amusing possibility that dear Scotty truly is blind to his own nature on this thread.
My bad. Well really, it's Peterson's bad, but who can blame him? The lack of a properly enlightened background in authentic Sacred Theology has clearly had a strange, softening effect on his mind.
August 15 at 1:18pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Anne Marie "But we Catholics must pray with each other and other Christians. Pray that the Lord gift us unity! Unity among ourselves! How will we ever have unity among Christians if we are not capable of having it among us Catholics, in the family, how many families fight and split up? Seek unity, unity builds the Church and comes from Jesus Christ. He sends us the Holy Spirit to build unity!" Pope Francis.
August 15 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Anne Marie Peace, friends. Let's not let a little online squabble divide us. Our lady of the Assumption, queen of peace, love and humility, pray for us!
August 15 at 1:24pm · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma
Erik Bootsma's photo.
August 15 at 1:24pm · Unlike · 18
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Michael Grumbine Win. ^^^
August 15 at 1:25pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Grumbine And well put, Alex.
August 15 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma
Erik Bootsma's photo.
August 15 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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John Hall I don't think I've ever seen this many TACers agree on anything.
It's kind of like how humanity always unites in those movies where the aliens invade.
August 15 at 1:34pm · Unlike · 26
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Michael Beitia I just look for any good excuse to flash TAC gang signs
August 15 at 1:35pm · Like · 7
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Erik Bootsma I flash that every time I go to the in law's house. Three at Christendom now.
August 15 at 1:37pm · Unlike · 2
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JA Escalante you know a conversation about the philosophical particularities of the founders (often unspoken at TAC- you had to poke around to find out sometimes, or just pay extremely close attention), and possible tendencies to intransigence regarding those, would really be worth having, but untrolled
August 15 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like · 6
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JA Escalante a conversation about the ratio studiorum of the program, and the role of sacred theology therein, would also be worth having (again, only if untroubled)
August 15 at 1:47pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill http://warrencountyreport.com/.../south_river_and_the... Is trolling a habit, a knack, an art, or a skill?
Warren County Report: South River and the Hatch Act
warrencountyreport.com
« Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time | Main | ‘Oh, people will come, people will most definitely come’ »
August 15 at 1:54pm · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma I think Inigo had the last word apparently.
August 15 at 2:14pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I would like to have a discussion with someone about the constitution of the curriculum, for example, I am curious as to whether anyone else thinks the Politics should be read in seminar instead of tutorial.
August 15 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Personally, I think Peregrine Bonaventure, Scott Weinburg, Jonathan Scott, or whatever his real name may be, might have a good point. Unfortunately, it's so buried under the way he expresses it, almost no one will ever see it.
August 15 at 3:03pm · Unlike · 14
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Ken Masugi Would Aristotle sky-dive? Who do you say I am?
August 15 at 7:23pm · Like
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John Tuttle I agree, the sky-diving Aristotle thesis sounds great! "Boady, this is your F#@%ing wake up call, man. I am a PHILOSOPHER!"
August 15 at 10:33pm · Like · 3
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John Kunz For everyone's next tattoo.
John Kunz's photo.
August 16 at 2:29am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Despite JA Escalante's scoffing above (as in way above), some TAC theses have been really good, more than fulfilling the promise of their titles. I would like to edit a volume of some of the best. Can everyone nominate some of their favorites? I'll go first (not using the titles, which I can't remember):
Peter Kay on Shakespeare's political thought,
Joseph Bolin on Vocation,
Rachel Berquist on the Filioque,
Another Berquist girl on the politics of medieval Spain,
Joe Zepeda on the Song of Songs,
Henry Zepeda on Cartesian Geometry,
Joe Kenny on "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Catherine Joliat Feil on Aristotle's Politics,
Catherine Ryland on hospitality,
David Isaac on music,
and (without false modesty) Pater Edmund on monarchy... lots more that I'll add when I think of them...
August 16 at 4:43am · Edited · Like · 7
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Peter Halpin Closing time...
August 16 at 5:13am · Like · 3
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Joe Zepeda Pater Edmund: Jeff Froula on the certainty of hope, and Katie Duda on Dante's Paradiso as an icon. I imagine your father's was pretty good! What did he write on?
August 16 at 12:39pm · Like · 3
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Claire Keeler Michael D. Byrne's authoritative treatise on Hegel, and let's have a moment of silence for the thesis-that-never-was, Joe Cheney's rejected thesis, De Urinatione.
August 16 at 12:49pm · Like · 7
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Pater Edmund Joe, my father wrote on Balthasar's aesthetics, but I'm afraid I haven't read his thesis. My mother tells me that it was "too long."
August 16 at 1:31pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Nathan Ciarleglio's "the idea of limit in the Histories of Herodotus"
August 16 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Unrelated fact about my father: his high-school senior Matura thing was "The poetry of Hölderlin, Rilke and Trakl in the literary criticism of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Romano Guardini."
August 16 at 1:47pm · Like · 6
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Ryan Burke There was one on Dante's De Monarchia, but I can't recall who wrote it. And Burke's on how Pater Edmond is wrong was OK
August 16 at 2:02pm · Like · 4
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Ryan Burke Can we still get old theses from TAC? Has anyone done that lately?
August 16 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Email Mark Kretchmer
August 16 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Angela Lessard Let's keep going, we can't quit before getting to a nice perfect number 300, can we?
August 16 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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Thomas Quackenbush Elizabeth Quackenbush Brideshead thesis.
August 16 at 5:08pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe I accidentally liked a dozen comments signed in as my husband. Friend me, Peterson! I was dangerously close to missing this thread entirely.
August 16 at 7:28pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Nick Zepeda Nerdfest!! Ha.
August 16 at 7:55pm · Like
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Joe Zepeda Yes, I forgot about Elizabeth Quack's thesis - really excellent.
August 16 at 8:47pm · Like · 3
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Anne Marie I just can't resist....
August 16 at 10:58pm · Like
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Anne Marie Being the 300th comment! Oh ya!
August 16 at 10:58pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why do I love reading these titles every year?
August 16 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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Angela Lessard Joe, do you get these sent to you, or did you have a personal connection to these?
August 17 at 12:24am · Like
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Joe Zepeda I had a personal connection to all except Miss Quackenbush's, which her esteemed father linked on facebook.
August 17 at 2:50am · Like · 1
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Joe Zepeda And here it is: https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUUHJlazdC.../edit...
Brideshead Thesis.pdf - Google Drive
docs.google.com
August 17 at 3:09am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Roy Axel Coats on the division of the fine arts.
August 17 at 4:59am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Peter Knuffke on transcendentals.
August 17 at 5:00am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Dr. McArthur once told me that the flourishing of a liberal education requires that we esteem each man our better, as Paul said, and not be puffed up. Keeping that in mind, I will say I wrote a Dante thesis out of which some people got a pretty decent kick.
"I Saw The Scattered Elements Unite": Justice, Mercy and Order in the Divine Comedy.
I went into it hoping to get TACers more interested in Dante, and partly as a result of this the school is now stocking Tony Esolen's radiantly awesome translation in the bookstore, so I consider it a personal success.
August 17 at 5:01am · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram Also, on the subject of Brideshead. and in no way diminishing Elizabeth Quackenbush's thesis for which she is so rightly praised, there is also Pat Dolan's wonderful exploration of the motif of the pastoral poetry tradition in Brideshead. I have a paper copy and I reread it when I want to be reminded that my class is really smart and stuff.
August 17 at 5:04am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Tom Short on torture (the first draft, not the final version after Mr. Goyette persuaded him to water down the main argument).
August 17 at 7:37am · Like · 4
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Clayton Brockman Oh snap, I remember that one.
August 17 at 7:45am · Like · 3
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Ryan Burke All the more interesting in light of Capt Short's profession.
August 17 at 8:42am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No one should forget Alex Wiseman's brilliant thesis on Kepler.
August 17 at 9:44am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I may be speaking to soon, but I think the troll is gone. I have encountered this one before (though I think under a different name). Joe Zepeda is spot on. Do not feed him. There is no possible dialogue, no possible point of discussion.
August 17 at 9:46am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and for good measure:
TAC is the best and I am the best!!!
USA! USA! USA!
August 17 at 10:03am · Unlike · 4
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Joe , do you have a copy of yours online? I read some of it and was frankly blown away. But then, you've long demonstrated an uncanny ability for shedding new light on old ideas starting with your observation-at the age of 4- that one can't be and not be a rotten egg at the same time.
August 17 at 10:16am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "There Are But Three Novels: How Reading Authors Other Than Waugh, O'Connor, and Undset Marks One as Insufficiently Catholic."
August 17 at 10:42am · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Looking up from reading this thread all the way to the end was, for a moment, like staring at an alien world. I don't remember the last time I was this disoriented. Madness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI
Play Video
Its a MADHOUSE! (Planet of the Apes, 1968) - Edited
Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?
August 17 at 12:27pm · Like · 4
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Liam Collins Kevin Kasson wrote a pretty cool one. And I personally learned a lot from Margaret Ryland's. Michael Masteller's was huge as well.
August 17 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Liam Collins and mine was, well, at least controversial enough to draw over 80 people to my defense, according to a few people who tried to count.
August 17 at 1:31pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia my defense was standing room only, but the thesis was crap and the defense worse
August 17 at 1:54pm · Like · 4
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Liam Collins haha. My defense was a bit of a letdown as well. But I reread the thesis for the first time a few months ago, and I still agree with it pretty strongly at least.
August 17 at 2:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley What was the thesis of your thesis, Liam? Also, I've heard the tutors were quite impressed with Louise Milton's thesis on Goethe's Faust.
August 17 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Kunz Ok wait - when did the love fest happen? Is the bickering done???
Surprised no one has brought up Tim Furlan's dissertation... In our time, that was the event of all events... I had over standing room only at mine, but his filled most of the hallway in the entire classroom building... And it was amazing.
August 17 at 2:41pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley Also, Philip D. Knuffke's thesis on imagination as the cause of error and David Freer's thesis on predestination were quite good.
August 17 at 2:59pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Mary Colette Masteller's on Anna Karenina
August 17 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Róisín Grimm I haven't enjoyed a thread this much in a very, very long time. Thank you all. And I have to say, I think the current prez of Cdom (whom I'm fortunate to refer to, viz a viz my marriage, as "Uncle Tim") would be mortified to find that our friendly neighborhood troll associates so closely with that otherwise fine institution.
August 17 at 3:59pm · Unlike · 7
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Liam Collins Edward Langley, here's the precis:
Christ says: “my Father is at work until now, so I am at work.”
This thesis is fundamentally an endeavor to be fully open to God's ongoing work in the world, a work which occurs above all in and through the human race.
It is revealed to the Christian and seen with increasing clarity by the scientist that the world around us is not unchanging and eternal, but fundamentally historical. Historical development occurs in many ways, including a development of the cosmos's awareness of itself in man. This development is intelligible to the Christian in it's guidance by, and orientation towards, God. The Christian knows that the created universe is a sign of God, and that God is at work in the perfection of this sign.
These insights, among other things, enable one to fully embrace the pressingly apparent fact that science has progressed in deeply meaningful ways in the course of its history, most noticeably in the phenomenal insights had by empirical science in the last several hundred years. These developments are not simply the inconsequential details following from eternal, divine principles; they are wonderful insights into the makings of a universe in which God continues to be intimately present, and for the sake of which the general laws of science exist.
August 17 at 4:29pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley I'm always slightly confused when people talk about the world around us being fundamentally historical. Is that to say you cannot understand the kinds of things you find in it without studying its history? Or is it to say that the easiest access we have to those things is through history, or is it merely a claim about understanding human society.
August 17 at 6:24pm · Like
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Joel HF Aletheia Herreid Née Price wrote one on Beauty and Art that was amazing.
August 17 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Edward , are you trying to start another discussion within this crazy place? This is when an administrator of a discussion forum would start a new thread. Then again... We probably would have all be kicked off the site by now too!
August 17 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Liam Collins haha, yeah, I do get the feeling that Edward probably has a response to any of the three options which he just proposed.
August 17 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Liam Collins which I would be happy to hear, but I'm going to pick my poison after dashing off to dinner right now...
August 17 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Actually, I think I'm alright with the last of the three Lauren, shh, I've been working hard to adopt a new, more attentive, image.
EDIT: perhaps this conversation should end here, we have exactly 333 comments ...
August 17 at 9:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edmund T. Dean I learned all the pickup lines and skipped the Thomism. Then I went to seminary. I MAY HAVE DONE THIS WRONG
August 17 at 9:50pm · Like · 7
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Peregrine Bonaventure A good Catholic college provides students with a curriculum that helps them develop a theological habit of spirit. A theological habit of spirit supports the reasonability of devotion. This habit always begins with intellectual assent to sacred truths, revealed, which cannot be known with reason. The theological habit of spirit seeks understanding. It does not begin with natural truths or proofs and, if it is excluded, undercuts the role of Faith to perfect reason. It also undercut theological speculation.
August 18 at 4:07pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram "Dr. Ronald McArthur, the first president of Thomas Aquinas College in California passed away on the morning of October 17, 2013. Like Christendom’s founder, Dr. Warren Carroll, McArthur was a pioneer in the renewal of faithful Catholic higher education in America. McArthur was awarded Christendom College’s Pro Deo et Patria Medal for Distinguished Service to Church and Nation in 2007 during Christendom’s 30th Anniversary Convocation.
'He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are doing here,' Christendom College president Dr. Timothy O’Donnell said. 'He has gone on to his eternal reward and we ask that you please pray for the repose of his soul and for the comfort of his family. He was a dear friend and will be missed.'
Eternal rest grant unto Dr. Ronald McArthur, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen."
http://www.christendom.edu/news/2013/10-17-mcarthur.php
College Mourns the Loss of Dr. Ronald McArthur
www.christendom.edu
“He was a great friend of Christendom College and supporter of the work we are d...See More
August 18 at 4:11pm · Like · 8
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Peregrine Bonaventure Much of history and science and the universe is outside the scope of revelation. Dr. Warren Carroll leaned on the term "salvation history" heavily to help show how God works in time and space. So, he adhered strictly to this idea of a theological habit of mind. This habit begins with intellectual assent to revealed truths. Without this habit, the Catholic student may fall prey to wide ranging speculation which effectively imposes imaginary specifications onto the Faith.
August 18 at 4:24pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram You know, I really do think that this thread is what happens when someone who knows nobody is going to agree with him has a psychological inability not to try for the last word.
August 18 at 4:38pm · Like · 5
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John Herreid I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary.
August 18 at 4:38pm · Unlike · 9
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Lauren Ogrodnick Speaking of Dr. McArthur, I recently lost all my prayer cards that were in a missal... Does anyone that had him for senior theology have time to type up the prayer of St Thomas Aquinas that the saint would say after consecration? I know McArthur handed them out to all his theology students. (Oh Godhead hid, devoutly I adore thee, who truly art within these forms before me, to thee my heart I bow with bended knee... Etc)
August 18 at 5:04pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,
August 18 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.
August 18 at 5:21pm · Like · 8
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Edward Langley Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.
August 18 at 5:22pm · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom Sweet honey on the rock! The Peregrine troll again?
Will this thread never end?
August 18 at 5:24pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Jason Van Boom Edward Langley Ignore Pilgrim Goodeffort.
August 18 at 5:24pm · Unlike · 3
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Jason Van Boom Let's change the subject.
Is it true that the goat-stag tastes like chicken?
August 18 at 5:26pm · Like · 6
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John Herreid Speaking of goats, what is this? Is it goat, or is it barrel?
John Herreid's photo.
August 18 at 5:28pm · Unlike · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.
August 18 at 5:35pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom John Herreid That's a very good question! I think it's an allegory on modernism. A satire on the confusion of discrete with continuous quantity.
August 18 at 5:43pm · Like · 4
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Joe Zepeda Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well.
August 18 at 5:43pm · Unlike · 7
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Jason Van Boom I like turtles.
August 18 at 5:45pm · Like · 7
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Jason Van Boom Joe Zepeda Matthew J. Peterson If Aristotle and Batman got in a fight, who would win?
August 18 at 5:48pm · Unlike · 6
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm starting to wonder what life would be like without this thread
August 18 at 5:48pm · Unlike · 10
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Jason Van Boom This thread should go on forever! Seriously!
Let's see how long we can make it.
August 18 at 5:49pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure If TAC assents to the sacred truth from which sacred theology and the Catholic Faith stems, then why does TAC not include all of it, but only includes some of it. St. Thomas frowns upon that sort of thing. Perhaps it's because TAC wants to think it can reason more impressively about complex things. But reason illuminating Faith is not a maxim of the Faith.
And who is this Scott fellow you keep refering to?
I am The Peregrine.
August 18 at 5:56pm · Like
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John Herreid Jason, that's a silly question. The real question would be if Aristotle and Batman got in a friendship based upon mutual concern for the polis, would it be a true friendship? (Second question: would Aristotle find Batman's relationship with Robin a little weird?)
I am The Walrus.
August 18 at 5:57pm · Like · 9
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Jason Van Boom I'm Batman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0F1fEQeWF8
Play Video
The Ultimate "I'm Batman!" Compilation
PART 2 IS HERE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUXvMymZC7A&feature=youtu.be Just...See More
August 18 at 5:58pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick This whole "all" of Sacred Theology seems like it would take longer than the life of the earth to accomplish.
August 18 at 5:58pm · Unlike · 5
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Erik Bootsma Does all include all of St. Augustine? I've heard it said no two men such as men are today could possibly read all that he has written.
August 18 at 6:01pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Reading "the most Aristotle and St. Thomas" is not the measure of the most excellent Catholic thinker, student or theologian. Get it?
August 18 at 6:01pm · Like
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John Herreid "You must begin a reading program immediately so that you may understand the crises of our age. Begin with the late Romans, including Boethius, of course. Then you should dip rather extensively into early Medieval. You may skip the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. That is mostly dangerous propaganda. Now that I think of it, you had better skip the Romantics and the Victorians, too. For the contemporary period, you should study some selected comic books. I recommend Batman especially, for he tends to transcend the abysmal society in which he's found himself. His morality is rather rigid, also. I rather respect Batman.”
—Ignatius J. Reilly, Confederacy of Dunces
August 18 at 6:02pm · Like · 12
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Jason Van Boom I only read St Augustine and Batman.
August 18 at 6:03pm · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure See, you can't address the issue, but only resort to idiocy. You're in denial.
August 18 at 6:04pm · Like
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell For The Peregrine.
Margaret Grimm Blackwell's photo.
August 18 at 6:05pm · Like · 10
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Erik Bootsma Do tell us then what "Sacred Theology" is comprised of.
August 18 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Self-referential, echo-chamber, non-critical, idiocy.
August 18 at 6:06pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom Don't feed the troll!
August 18 at 6:06pm · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKlmc8HpkI4
Play Video
JOAN BAEZ ~ I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine ~
Joan Baez ~ I DREAMED I SAW SAINT AUGUSTINE ~ The significance of this song is t...See More
August 18 at 6:08pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Are you telling us something about this thread?
August 18 at 6:11pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure All/some. Whole/part. These are fairly basic concepts. If you do not grasp the idea of the fullness of the Catholic Faith, in its revealed principles, this might explain how someone might write a thesis about how God is revealed in all Christians or in all things knowable.
August 18 at 6:12pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I will tell you you have it wrong, Mr. Bootsma, and most certainly not quite right, which with this matter is wrong.
August 18 at 6:14pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom Tom Sundaram Tell us abut Dante.
August 18 at 6:14pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Ooh, yes! I think I will!
So Dante was a 14th century Italian from Florence. One day when he was nine, he saw...
A WOMAN.
(if you want me to continue the story, please applaud or indicate thus otherwise. )
August 18 at 6:16pm · Like · 6
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Lauren Ogrodnick No, tell us ALL about Dante
August 18 at 6:16pm · Like · 7
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Jason Van Boom The fullness. Give us the fullness of Dante.
Because this thread MUST NOT END!
August 18 at 6:17pm · Unlike · 5
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Tom Sundaram Okay. So he saw a woman. But not just any woman. She was Beatrice, and he fell in love. Now, normally you or I, if we fell for someone, might write...what? Can anyone give me examples?
August 18 at 6:18pm · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom Love letters? A limerick?
August 18 at 6:18pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram You know, I was just going to say "dirty limericks" if nobody said anything.
August 18 at 6:19pm · Like · 6
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Tom Sundaram Poetry! And Dante wrote poetry for her. Initially it was really bad by the standards of the day, which means that to this day classicists still nerd out over it. But eventually it got pretty good, and he invented a new style of poetry, the "dolce stil nuovo."
August 18 at 6:20pm · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom Going to bed. (Past 1 am in Estonia). Can't wait to see how long this thread gets by the time I wake up!
August 18 at 6:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Tom Sundaram Heh, I have to study Italian, myself, but I will tell a little more.
August 18 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram So Dante set out to write BETTER poetry. A poem to span the ages, which settled for no theme less than the Love that moves the Sun and the other stars, in adoration of the Trinity and in veneration of his own, sainted Beatrice.
August 18 at 6:21pm · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom He was pretty smitten, eh?
August 18 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom We need a sign up sheet to keep this thread going. Like Perpetual Adoration.
August 18 at 6:23pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Now, a poem like that, you can't just write about the Shire - you need some Minas Tirith, and a lot of Silmarillon. So in order to do even a halfway good job, he needed to start by getting his liberal education on. From his studies of Philosophy, he produced three very notable works: the Convivio, or banquet, his metaphysics (his Silmarillon, if you will!); the De Monarchia, his political philosophy per se in light of the Incarnation; and finally the De Vulgari Eloquentia, his De Interpretatione or his Elvish, if you'd like.
August 18 at 6:23pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom Off to bed! Keep it up!
August 18 at 6:24pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram These three works are still epochal works in first philosophy, political theory and linguistics respectively, and show signs of his education by both the Dominicans and the Franciscans, as well as his rhetorical training under Brunetto Latini, Dante's "Ser Brunetto." But to the Divine Commedia, they were only to be handmaids, as Philosophy is to Theology. (Hence his enduring belief in Philosophy as a Lady - in fact, as Mary, "our tainted nature's solitary boast", was the handmaid of the Lord, so philosophy is the handmaid of the Trinity.)
August 18 at 6:26pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram When he had finished these, he set out to depict nothing less than the poetic exposition of the cosmic character of the Eucharist as the Incarnational mode of communion with the Trinitarian life. But to do this he had to illustrate precisely the highest mode by which we can relate to God as being simply the being of God Himself - Love. And he wanted to display, by his pen, the enduring and primary truth about creation - that the order of the existence of all things is not a rigorous necessity, as though God had to create us just so according to a rigid and immutable a priori law (Inferno - "He broke the rigid sentence from above") or its seeming abandonment (Purgatorio) but according to His truly immutable Will, which in its immutability captures the purpose of all mutability.
August 18 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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Dominique Martin "I'm just glad that I can rely on the Magisterium for guidance instead of some guy on the internet armed with a pseudonym and a glossary."
AMEN to this.
August 18 at 6:31pm · Like · 7
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Tom Sundaram In doing this, he realized that the only epistemological mode of truly accessing this mystery was the Beatific Vision of God Himself, especially the Person of Christ. So to do this, he had to depict nothing less than a poetic inroad into that super-knowable knowledge. Hence, the conclusion of his Paradiso, in which the entire symphonic order of the other two Books finds its climax and fruition.
August 18 at 6:32pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Okay, now my fingers are tired. Maybe more later. Someone else needs to pick up the baton.
August 18 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Poor answer Scott. Poor answer. What is theology then, if you wont tell me what "all of sacred theology" is, at least you can tell me what it is in it's essence.
August 18 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Again,
Erik Bootsma's photo.
August 18 at 6:41pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Dude. I logged off of the Book of Faces for days...AND IT'S ALIVE!
August 18 at 6:50pm · Unlike · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates everywhere. Reason, Logic, and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no use, people.
August 18 at 6:51pm · Unlike · 21
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yeah, but you can't use sticks on Facebook.
August 18 at 6:52pm · Unlike · 7
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think we need to push the number of comments on this thread up over 400. Who's with me? *puts hand to ear*
August 18 at 6:57pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson AMERICA, HECK YEAH
August 18 at 7:11pm · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Naive and earnest....good description of the TAC ethos.
August 18 at 7:15pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure What is theology if not the fullness of the Faith, and what is the fullness if only St. Thomas. I wish he were the Pope today, but God's providence seems to be otherwise.
August 18 at 7:24pm · Like
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Susan Peterson I comment as a St. Johnnie. I don't think the point of TAC is to instruct in Sacred Theology as a subject, but rather to teach young people how to read and think while living in a Catholic milieu. They are supposed to have the foundation for continuing to learn about the faith, for evaluating new ideas which come along, for being informed Catholics and informed citizens. It isn't a seminary!
August 18 at 7:30pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe Mr. (Scott) Peregeine (Weinberg) Bonaventure: Did you go to Christendom?
August 18 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Susan: There's a LOT of Theology, and the whole program is ordered to its study. (Peregrine is really, really not someone worth discussing this with, I promise you.)
August 18 at 7:31pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Susan Peterson But it isn't indoctrination and that sounds like what Mr Bonadventure is pushing for.
August 18 at 7:34pm · Like
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Susan Peterson I only wish I had a chance to study like that. I wish you had a summer graduate institute like SJC so I could go through even a shadow of your program.
August 18 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Oh, sure, it's not raw catechesis, which he apparently thinks is something people should be getting in college, instead of even before 8th grade when most people today get it. It's the actual study of theology, which, contra illam troglodytam, involves philosophy as an ancillary discipline.
August 18 at 7:37pm · Like · 3
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Edmund T. Dean I can sympathise with Susan's point (though my perspective is pretty limited having done only one full year). The theology seems fairly pedestrian - extremely orthodox and superb for what it is, but as the almighty Dr. McArthur said to me once, "you probably shouldn't come here for scholarship." Given that the foundations of Catholic theology are notably absent from high school curricula, maybe this back-to-basics approach is necessary.
August 18 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 1
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Max Summe I'm just really curious about Mr. Weinberg's past now. What happened to him? Why does he hate TAC so much?
Much more interesting than anything he wants to talk about...
August 18 at 7:38pm · Unlike · 5
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Tom Sundaram Thanks for the kind words for the program, Susan!
Edmund raises a good point, which is that catechesis is falling off, but I think it's kind of strange to think that has to be fixed by turning undergraduate theology into an RCIA program or a grad school.
August 18 at 7:38pm · Like · 2
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Edmund T. Dean Shortly after leaving TAC I took a senior elective at a local seminary on Thomistic Ethics. I was actually surprised at how good the prep at TAC was for something like that, and I could hold my own with guys who had already been through 3-4 years of training for the priesthood.
August 18 at 7:45pm · Unlike · 7
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Tom Sundaram I can't say I ever reached a point in my Theology MA where I was totally out of my TAC comfort zone as far as understanding the ideas at hand.
August 18 at 7:46pm · Unlike · 7
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Edmund T. Dean If nothing else, it gives you a great prep just for grasping ideas in general and putting them into a logical framework. I slid into a job in journalism and it was great to be able to detect all the sophistry under the rocks
August 18 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm really starting to enjoy Peregrine's off base, left-field, wack-ass (for lack of a better term) critiques. Set up something no one is saying, attack it violently, then repeat. and repeat. aaaaaand repeat.
"The sign out front says if I don't like it it's free. I don't like it"
"there's no such sig-"
"I said I don't like it, it should be free"
"but there's no-"
"but the sign says free"
this could work for me in "real" life
August 18 at 7:49pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure You are crazed and drunken sports fans, cheering for a particular team. You call your team the greatest. Then you mistake your team for the sport itself.
August 18 at 7:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nah, not much of a sports fan, really
August 18 at 7:51pm · Unlike · 5
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Edmund T. Dean sec let me get my cheerleading outfit
August 18 at 7:51pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia make sure it is dress-code approved
August 18 at 7:52pm · Unlike · 9
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Michael Beitia as far as the "sports fan" thang goes, lots of us met our spouses at TAC some of us converted and found the faith at TAC, and none of us are unchanged by that experience, for good or ill.
That having been said, Scott, yo momma's fat
August 18 at 7:53pm · Unlike · 6
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Edmund T. Dean admittedly I may have my eyes glazed over from having made a lot of lasting friendships and rediscovered my vocation there ^^
August 18 at 7:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 420
August 18 at 7:57pm · Like · 5
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Edmund T. Dean btw if you're from TAC and are reading this and you find yourself in London or thereabouts, this seminarian wants to treat you to dinner and a pint. Goodnight all
August 18 at 7:59pm · Unlike · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson Peregrine Bonaventure even has Michael Beitia defending his alma mater and has single handed lay kept this thread up this far and this long.
Truly you deserve an award. You are no longer a troll - you have achieved the level of the - of the -something even more - the level of a comment *Dragon*.
August 18 at 8:03pm · Edited · Unlike · 16
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Erik Bootsma Yes Scott, theology is the fullness of the faith, but what is it that is "missing" of that in the curriculum at TAC? Do please tell.
August 18 at 8:03pm · Unlike · 3
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John Kunz but it's a douchey dragon, isn't it, Matthew? not just a regular dragon...
August 18 at 8:10pm · Like · 4
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Martin G. Snigg --->A Structural Reexamination of the Angelic Hierarchies for the Illumination of Man as a Cosmological Being
--->The Cosmic Game: Angelic Causality in the Material Realm
Thomas Quackenbush <---
--->The Stuff That Matters: The Atom as an Element
^Need the above for my current work.
Could have pasted them all but, for me, would like to read.
“The Clerk’s Tale”: An Insufficient Account of How to Accept Trial from God
“You Are Among Marvels That You Do Not Understand”: An Investigation into the Parallel Between the Character of Orual and the Land of Glome
August 18 at 8:16pm · Like · 4
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Joe Zepeda Premise 1: A Catholic college should teach the fulness of the faith; Premise 2: the fulness of the faith can't fit into an undergraduate curriculum; Conclusion: No college is Catholic.
August 18 at 8:18pm · Unlike · 22
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Dominique Martin Nice try, Joe. But that makes way too much sense for Mr. Boneventure to accept as truth.
August 18 at 8:24pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict "TAC clearly produces arrogant goats..." I'd like to address this frankly childish, almost fart-like emittance from Peregrine.
Your unjust appellation of this particular graduate of TAC might well be correct, Mr. Bonaventure. But in my case, it's an accident of birth. You, sir, are clearly a self-made man.
August 18 at 8:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Maximilian Nightingale I can't believe I just spent the last [...] minutes catching up on this thread.
August 18 at 8:25pm · Unlike · 7
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John Kunz And let's be fair mr Benedict. It's a goatSTAG!!! C'mon people.
August 18 at 8:26pm · Unlike · 7
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Joe: the fulness of the faith can't fit into any curriculum.
August 18 at 8:30pm · Unlike · 3
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Maximilian Nightingale The whole "teaching the whole of theology" thing reminds me of a quote from Ephesians 1 that the Church prays in the Liturgy each week:
"God has given us the wisdom to understand fully the mystery, the plan he was pleased to decree in Christ."
FULLY! Any thoughts on what this means? Someone actually asked me about this the last time I was at TAC. Great question.
August 18 at 8:34pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson As a dog returneth to its vomit, so a Facebooker returneth to this thread.
August 18 at 8:34pm · Unlike · 16
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Michael Beitia oh, Matthew, I've never defended TAC period. nor will I. I just attack Scott.
His momma so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house
August 18 at 8:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and you didn't have to jump straight to "dragon", Peterson, wikipedia is instructive. I think maybe "slime-troll"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Troll (Dungeons & Dragons) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
While trolls can be found throughout folklores worldwide, the D&D troll has litt...See More
August 18 at 8:51pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne I got my MA in Theology/Catechetics at FUS. When I met with the department chair, although on paper I "needed" about 7 pre-requisites to enter the program, he said that since I went to TAC he was waiving the pre-requisites. And I pulled off a Summa Cum Laude. (While mother of 6 children...). I now work as Theology Dept. Chair at an Archdiocesan pre-k through 12. All that to say TAC was lousy preparation....
August 18 at 8:56pm · Unlike · 13
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wow! That's awesome!
August 18 at 8:57pm · Unlike · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne It really was a great preparation!
August 18 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Max Summe, clearly PeregrineScottWhatshisname asked TAC to the prom and was turned down.
August 18 at 9:13pm · Unlike · 7
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Michael Beitia lastly, Peterson (for now) we need video of S C T A C 400
August 18 at 9:24pm · Like
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Ryan Burke Peregrine is not passing the Turing Test. It's clearly some kind of performance art.
August 18 at 11:04pm · Like · 5
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Nina Rachele whaaaaaaat is going on here
August 19 at 12:07am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict "If a man cannot cross a river on its own terms,
Then he doesn't deserve the other side."
August 19 at 12:12am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell 444 w00t!
August 19 at 12:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Well, my gnosis tells me 496 is a perfect number. Maybe someone should aim for that
August 19 at 8:43am · Like
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Pater Edmund Christendom has produced some great senior theses too. For example Dane Joseph Weber on intellectual property: http://dane.weber.org/concept/thesis.html
August 19 at 10:39am · Unlike · 2
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Pater Edmund I will always be grateful to Peregrine for inspiring this discussion:
http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/
Unwritten Tradition
sancrucensis.wordpress.com
Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture...See More
August 19 at 10:42am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I still think, as I said then, that the response that Peregrine Bonaventure always brings forth is a sign that his complaints sometimes hit close to nerves or some unclear areas for many and are not mere trolling.
August 19 at 10:52am · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure If someone has a pen name, that is fair. Certainly, no more robust discussion on Faith and philosophy occurs than among the TAC family. I'm just saying, we need to examine our faith and theology. Not to question it endlessly, but to rely on it, so it does what it's supposed to do; so it perfects our reason and nature, and leads us to goodness and devotion. A strongly-worded criticism is not malicious. A strong defense will stand on its own and place things in better focus. Assent to the sacred truths of the Faith, in its entirety, is an act of the heart and the intellect -- and is a valid starting point for theological inquiry. The Liberal Arts were intended to support this inquiry.
August 19 at 11:32am · Unlike · 3
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Shannon Maguire I stumbled across this thread last night just before I went to bed. It accounted for my crazy dream of returning to campus and going class with Mr. Berquist (may he RIP), where the opening prayer had been changed. I've heard TAC accused of many things--producing arrogant graduates, focusing too much on Aristotle, not incorporating this or that great work--but I've never heard it called unCatholic.
August 19 at 11:38am · Unlike · 5
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Luke Halpin No comment
August 19 at 12:00pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure What is "unCatholic"? Does that mean you have a kind of theology that does not correspond with Catholic truth? There are many different truly Catholic theologians, and there are different theological approaches, but they all have one thing in common: they begin with an assent to the sacred truths which have been revealed and supported by the Catholic Church. They begin with the human being giving assent to these truths. They do not begin with another set of truths that the human being has reasoned to.
August 19 at 12:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia exactly, and we all know that St. Thomas when discussing the Holy Trinity, actually reasons to it from human understanding, and the articles are not explicating a mystery of the faith, nor a dogma, but rather proving that God is necessarily a Trinity from math and stuff.
August 19 at 12:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia that's nothing compared to how he proves that sacraments exist from historical necessity.
August 19 at 12:53pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia and that's how I studied - like a good Marxist unraveling the historical truths that dialectically appear through the seminar method
August 19 at 12:54pm · Unlike · 2
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Adrw Lng The gentleman: "If he engages in controversy of any kind, his disciplined intellect preserves him from the blundering discourtesy of better, perhaps, but less educated minds; who, like blunt weapons, tear and hack instead of cutting clean, who mistake the point in argument, waste their strength on trifles, misconceive their adversary, and leave the question more involved than they find it. He may be right or wrong in his opinion, but he is too clear-headed to be unjust; he is as simple as he is forcible, and as brief as he is decisive. Nowhere shall we find greater candor, consideration, indulgence: he throws himself into the minds of his opponents, he accounts for their mistakes."
August 19 at 12:59pm · Like · 8
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Nina Rachele Are we discussing the way in which we study Thomas, or the fact that we study Aristotle alongside Thomas? (And for certain subjects like logic, natural science, ethics, before him?) why on earth am i even typing this, i have no idea. Need to take up knitting again...
August 19 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, TAC does not begin theology with assent to sacred truths. Though it may recognise that St. Thomas himself has taught that sacred theology begins with assent to divine revelation and the sacred teachings of the Holy Catholic Faith, though it states in its Charter than liberal education is finally subject the teaching Church, in the course of its curriculum, it does not teach or present theology in this way. But in another way...
August 19 at 3:22pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It begins in an entirely different way. It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons. It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason. This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology. TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.
August 19 at 3:24pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Mr. Beitia, Thomas is NOT reasoning toward the Holy Trinity. He gives intellectual assent to revealed and sacred truth, then supports that faith with reasonable dialectic. It is assent to faith seeking and achieving understanding. It is not a reasoning in the metaphysical sense.
August 19 at 3:28pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick And Scripture. . . But maybe that's to Protestant of a beginning?
August 19 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger ubi est Peregrinus. Omnia argumenta eius deleta videntur. Certamen cum umbra. Laudandi qui umbras suas vicerunt. Thomas ne erubesceat
August 19 at 3:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia really Scott? I had no idea
August 19 at 3:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia BINGO: you spelled my name right!
Give him a hand, folks, he can be taught
August 19 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 3
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John Kunz ok. is it safe to understand mr p-bon, that you attended TAC? I only say that as I think it says something to that effect on your book of faces profile. now... the way that the program is built studies things in a historical narrative (more or less). however, it is an integrated historical narrative. the program does not study JUST logic, and THEN syllogism, and THEN philosophy (just listing what you wrote above - more or less), and THEN some natural theology a la greeks.
August 19 at 4:06pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Kunz - he's a Christendom guy, I think.
August 19 at 4:07pm · Like
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John Kunz (still writing - just hit enter by mistake - in my humility, I just said that I made a mistake)
August 19 at 4:07pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Also I love that P-B is apparently immune to sarcasm, as he completely missed Beitia's.
August 19 at 4:08pm · Like · 6
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Becca Cupo I just adore this thread.
August 19 at 4:12pm · Like · 4
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John Kunz HOWEVER!!! (and yes, I know that this argument/discussion is fruitless – but what the hell).
We study these things in order, to give a proper context to what comes (came) next, in both the progression of thought, but also progression of what formed the thought.
That is why the programs are actually integrated, not just among the other subjects, but in themselves.
So, it seems like a fairly logical thing to study theology in the following manner:
1) Sacred Scripture
2) St. Augustine (first explaining how to further understand it, and then an understanding of how Sacred Scripture exists in the world, thought, etc).
3) The Prima Pars (Summa) – the treatise on God, then the treatise on the sacraments, etc. (yes – this was written by St. Thomas Aquinas).
a. Incidentally, this is studied as it is the basis (according to the Vatican, anyways) for most of the Church(sorry, Magisterium)’s understanding of God, Sacred Theology, etc., etc.,
4) Then we study the Constitution of the Church, certain encyclicals (issued by the Magisterium, if you will) to understand various aspects of not only Theology, but also Catholic Social Thought.
I say that is seems fairly logical to study in that manner, because that is the same manner in which God's Divinely Revealed Truth has become understood to man over the centuries... Why start with the end of the book and not meet the plot, characters, twists, etc? Knowing only the way that Don Quixote's ends, without knowing how he actually got there, and the WAY that he got there would be fruitless.
But the brilliance of the integration here, is the fact that one cannot properly understand the words, terms, phrases or dare I say, SENTENCES and paragraphs in most of what St. Thomas wrote, OR St. Augustine OR Any of the other notions then studied through encyclicals, etc., if one has not first studied those that they refer to, quote and lean on to make their mark. That is to say, if one just starts straight in on the summa with a hope to one day read St. John of the Cross (make up some other example here please), one does not have any further respect, knowledge NOR understanding of either Carmelite Mysticism, NOR the Catholic Faith (nor the magisterium – just to be fair). THAT IS BECAUSE very simply, very few people are smart enough to just read the Summa and understand its meaning, let alone its nuance.
So, do students at TAC study logic and natural theology? Absofreakinlutely. Is that because the Blue Book says so? Nope. Is that because the founders think that we can reason our way to understanding God alone without the light of faith? Nope. It’s because in order to not only appreciate STA, but also have any chance of grasping straws, one must understand his vernacular, and in a certain sense – study the same way that he did.
So is logic an important part of the curriculum? So much so that it pervades almost every freshman class? It sure is! Is Aristotle that important too? Not because it’s Aristotle. It’s important because that is what follows from an understanding of Western Philosophy (I doubt they study Aristotle in the same way at St. John’s when discussing the Great Books of Eastern Thought). However, in order to give the best picture in a short period of time (4 years), there must be some tie between it all. Therefore: Pre-Socratics Socrates/Plato Aristotle Modernity Post-Modernity. Are you seeing the trend here? It’s the same in Math… Euclid Ptolemy Copernicus Kepler Descartes Leibnitz Newton Non-Euclidian Einstein (I missed some and integrated others). This studies the formation of the problem. And it leads to a full (as full) understanding of the stuff.
So – to add the last thoughts based on your (Current) last post.
“It begins with logic and philosophy and things which can be known by reasons.”
A) Covered, but I know that you see the error in complaining about this anyways, as of course you know, We learn by moving to the more known to us, to the less known and thereby towards that more known in itself. So, this makes sense.
"It uses these things as the principles of theology. It does not begin theology and Catholic education with assent, but with syllogism or -- more fairly stated -- with reason."
A) No. This isn’t how the study of Theology, nor principles of theology are studied. This is how PHILOSOPHY is studied – in order to better understand theology? Yep! But not THE study of Theology.
“This is not off the wall. If this is false, then it should be easy for the college to correct it. TAC uses metaphysics as the basis for sacred theology. It does not use assent to sacred principles. It pursues a reason illuminating faith model, which has no precedence in Catholic theology.”
A) Nope. Natural Theology? Yep. SACRED? Nope.
“TAC may argue that it does not pretend to teach all of theology. It may say it is only a starting point to further study. But the starting point itself is wrong. It leads the student to reason towards faith, instead of faith perfecting reason.”
A) AGAIN – not sure where this idea is coming from… but I think that my first paragraph deals with this as well.
But don’t take my word for it.
August 19 at 4:28pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Marina Shea Mr Peregrine, two questions. What is the ideal of a university as such? 2) is a Catholic university different in kind from a university simply?
August 19 at 4:43pm · Like
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John Kunz You're welcome (show off)
August 19 at 4:58pm · Unlike · 2
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John Hall http://youtu.be/BNyDjkPO8l0
Play Video
Wha' Happen??
Hey, Wha Happen??
August 19 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger QUAESTIONEM unam propono: BOVEM MUTUM hanc lineam commendare arbitraminine?
August 19 at 5:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You know, one of the first lessons I teach any students learning history with me is to avoid the mistake of assuming that at any given historical period people all thought the same thing. Being quick to judge, and naturally tending toward it, young students like very much to say things like "Well that's just what they all thought back then." Jonathan Scott Weinberg, or the so-called Bonaventure, appears from his profile picture to be substantially older than high school or middle school students. But that don't seem to matter.
Mr. Weinberg, even if your tenuous claim that TAC purports to approach sacred theology in some specific unprecedented way holds any water whatsoever, it does not follow that therefore all graduates of TAC also approach it that way, or that we all emerge inevitably brainwashed by the college's approach.
In other words, Bonaventure - I'm trying very hard to see things from your point of view, I really am. Unfortunately, I can't stick my head that far up my own ass. Maybe you can teach me how to do that, too?
August 19 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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John Kunz John - just because you aren't getting many responses to your Latin statements doesn't mean that we don't understand them...
August 19 at 7:52pm · Unlike · 3
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Tom Sundaram Excuse me? Have we met? How the hell can you justify calling all of us arrogant? I expect it from PB, because he's a troll and we've been over and over this twenty times, and I didn't read your Latin because it struck me as pretentious (and as a canonist in training, it's not because I don't read Latin) - who the hell are you to be so bigoted toward everyone here?
August 19 at 7:53pm · Unlike · 4
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John Kunz And to be fair... Knowing oneself to be correct in all instances, and stating that to be the case doesn't make one arrogant. It just makes them correct. Always and in all ways.
August 19 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Also, I don't think I studied Theology wrong, and I'm willing to bet my MA in Philosophy and my MA in Theology on that. Are you going to tell me where I screwed up? Because if you want to tell me the failures in my own education, you'd best be damn well ready to back it up with chapter and verse. Failing to do this means you are guilty of calumny.
Take your time, rear yourself up like a man and make your case - I know the documents of the Church well enough that I am untroubled by any ideas you might have gotten into your head.
August 19 at 7:59pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Ruplinger, I've seen your intelligent comments on my Dad's posts. I thought you were better than this. Who the hell do you think you are? I see you "studied porters and imperial stout at University of Dallas." Did you really just join Bonaventure in referring to the entirety of TAC graduates as arrogant bastards? Answer me this, you troglodyte - was it hard work becoming such an illiterate boor?
August 19 at 8:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tom - I think it might be a good idea for Ruplinger to learn how to punctuate and capitalize before he tackles your theology education.
August 19 at 8:04pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Whoa there. He might not be illiterate (though he seems to be acting boorish, I grant you) - and certainly there is something trollish in the way he just accused us - I want to hear his case. Really, I do. I want to hear it out in the open, where such accusations among Christians ought to be exposed to sunlight, and I want to watch him try and make his case, because, on the distant chance he is right, he can prove it like a man - and if he is wrong, he can accept censure for insulting an entire school of people.
August 19 at 8:04pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict He's not off to a very good start.
August 19 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Also, I'd really love to hear in what way I am "impotable." I hadn't realized that you could use that to describe someone, it usually referring to whether water is drinkable, and on the off chance it is literary genius instead of the more likely imbecilic nattering, I'd like to know what it means.
August 19 at 8:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.youtube.com/embed/PB6sH3RwGYA?autoplay=1
Play Video
The Great Muppet Caper, Say cheese!
The end of the song "Happiness Hotel" from The Great Muppet Caper. Gonzo takes a picture and Sam the Eagle says his best line ever.
August 19 at 8:06pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Tom - I think he intends it to mean "unbearable."
August 19 at 8:07pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Dude, that's like...one letter too long and way too many letters different. How do you get from A to B on that one?
August 19 at 8:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matthew - granted. Quite granted. Doesn't mean some people around here don't need an expert surgeon in head-from-ass removal.
August 19 at 8:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict He means we are unbearable to be around or converse with, just as muddy, stagnant water is impotable. That's my best guess.
August 19 at 8:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict In other words, he can't stomach us.
August 19 at 8:12pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Anyways, I assume that his criticism that our "tone" indicates that we don't get Theology right is because we have a sense of poise and dignity about our education, rather than treating our degrees as worthless pieces of paper that can be used as Latin-themed toilet rags in emergencies. I suppose, given the kind of paradigm that thinks being anything but passive on the matter is the Devil's work, he would rather we spent all our time talking about social issues and never discussing Aquinas. We would all be perfect souls of courtesy. You know, like St. Jerome "the Thunderer."
"As to your inquiry whether I have written in opposition to the books of Annianus, this pretended deacon of Celedæ, who is amply provided for in order that he may furnish frivolous accounts of the blasphemies of others, know that I received these books...I have suffered so much...that I almost thought of passing over these writings with silent contempt. For he flounders from beginning to end in the same mud, and, with the exception of some jingling phrases which are not original, says nothing he had not said before. Nevertheless, I have gained much in the fact, that in attempting to answer my letter he has declared his opinions with less reserve, and has published to all men his blasphemies; for every error which he disowned in the wretched synod of Diospolis he in this treatise openly avows. It is indeed no great thing to answer his superlatively silly puerilities, but if the Lord spare me, and I have a sufficient staff of amanuenses, I will in a few brief lucubrations answer him, not to refute a defunct heresy, but to silence his ignorance and blasphemy by arguments: and this your Holiness could do better than I, as you would relieve me from the necessity of praising my own works in writing to the heretic."
August 19 at 8:16pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict THE ST. JEROME SMACKDOWN!! OHHHHH SNAP
August 19 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger QED (BTW there is a potable arrogant bastard.) Anywho, I just read like hundreds of posts ripping on a certain Peregrinne B. but couldn't find a single post by him. Just trying to clarify. Regarding the theology, I take for a model both the Jesuit tradition and Leo XIII's suggested order of studies. Your own is considerably different. I also question how its done. That is all. Regarding superbia, it's just something I suspect in how open you are to criticism. I was being tongue in cheek mostly, but hey, what do I know. (edit: to be clear I refer to the Ratio Studiorum esp. as explained by Fr. Hughes)
August 19 at 8:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think there's plenty of cheek to go around in these parts...
August 19 at 8:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The real question is: is this comment thread a sin I must confess as soon as I am able?
August 19 at 8:24pm · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson But all I did was point to the one interlectual thing I like about my alma mater...
August 19 at 8:25pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Matthew, this comment thread is building you mansions in Heaven.
August 19 at 8:25pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict And if you die tomorrow and become a saint, will this thread stand as some kind of fourth-class digital relic of you, Matthew?
August 19 at 8:26pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram I am a great fan of the potable Arrogant Bastard. I am also a fan of the classical order of studies - I especially like how Leo got it from Aquinas, and how ours doesn't begin with Metaphysics and end in the Scriptures, such that all of it is accepted purely based on "my teacher told me so." I am open to criticism, believe it or not - I am not so open to these usual Ex Corde Ecclesiae school genital-waving contests which seem to be everyone's favorite occupation.
Since I presume your accusations are not actually based in reality or knowing me at all, I'm just going to assume you won't defend them, in which case I hope you are willing to offer an apology. I don't take kindly to "I'm just gonna be an uncontrolled flapping mouth at your school, since, you know, if it's on the internet nobody can tell me what is rude." I believe that my school deserves an apology when people say ignorant stuff about it.
August 19 at 8:26pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti "Creator of five day long comment threads . . . Pray for us."
August 19 at 8:27pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ruplinger and Bonaventure both seem to hold degrees from the same school of evasion, Tom. I don't think an apology is forthcoming.
August 19 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Tom, you should quote Jerome in Latin, otherwise the relevant parties might not understand it.
August 19 at 8:28pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley If Mr. Bonaventure is really Mr. Weinberg, I believe he was asked to leave TAC by Mr. Kaiser at some point in his freshman year. (Or at least, Scott Weinberg related some such anecdote to me back in the day.)
August 19 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ruplinger has no idea what hurricane he has just provoked.
August 19 at 8:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Facebook's privacy settings can do that to conversations. Especially if the person in question has blocked you at some point: then neither you nor he will be able to see each other's comments.
August 19 at 8:35pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict "...i suspect part of his complaint which i sympathize with: 1) youre all impotable arrogant bastards 2) you dont study theology right. BY your own admissions even and tone, he is right." Would you care to explain how we have so grievously misunderstood you, sir?
August 19 at 8:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley The short story is that someone showed up awhile ago and started criticizing TAC's curriculum and evading any attempt to reach common ground. Since then, many of us have, rightly or wrongly. decided that argument with this person is fruitless and have begun responding in kind.
August 19 at 8:37pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman I pray for their job prosoects.
August 19 at 8:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think very few TACers would claim that TAC's curriculum is perfect for every possible end, (in fact, I gather that several people in this thread are quite critical of TAC most of the time) we just like criticism to come from someone who is willing to actually talk to us rather than at us.
August 19 at 8:39pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I'd never say I'm not arrogant. I reject the idea that I'm somehow arrogant because I attended Thomas Aquinas College.
August 19 at 8:42pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Perhaps you were not deliberately provocative in that other conversation.
August 19 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Also - 524.
August 19 at 8:45pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley .525x10^3
August 19 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think that is a problem, although there is a corresponding problem with lectures: excessive passivity to the ideas of others.
August 19 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Quite.
August 19 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know the Jesuit method, perhaps a description would be helpful. I do know that the "Scholastic" method balanced lectures (lectiones) with something similar to a seminar (i.e. the disputationes). Obviously the format of the latter differed insofar as it concluded with an authority pronouncing judgment on the positions held by his students: but something like that happens in the better seminars at TAC.
August 19 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Can't hear you with your mouth full like that, John
August 19 at 8:52pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I'll take a good Stone Brewing Company IPA, if you please.
August 19 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Pistols at dawn, Ruplinger. Your day has come.
August 19 at 8:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Scintilating discussion. It's no surprise the TAC family of scholars pursues the question what is theology. No one else is doing this today. You need very strong reasoning skills to pursue this question today. Faith -- which is love engulfed in the substance of things hoped for -- seeking understanding.
August 19 at 9:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hey, Peregrine, we read the dude that invented that phrase, we'll all about it.
August 19 at 9:01pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Put a sock in it, Bonaventure.
August 19 at 9:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, Dr. MacArthur and co. basically never stopped repeating that phrase.
August 19 at 9:02pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thanks, I love you guys.
August 19 at 9:02pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne FYI John - this is the type of comment that you cannot see which these gentlemen were responding to:
Peregrine Bonaventure The guys who started TAC were extreme intransigents on a wide range of false opinion, from the question of unalienable rights to the relationship between Faith and reason, to the relationship between St. Thomas and the Church, to the human person, to the nature of the human will and the imagination, and so much more. TAC is a backwater. An idolatry. Because of its arrogance, which it holds as a virtue, and because of its incomplete presentation of the Faith, it leads to a truncated exercise of reason, and its students are often grossly offensive.
I thank Holy Mother the Church and Her Sacraments for my spiritual and academic formation.
August 15 at 8:29am
There are plenty more where that came from.
August 19 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBPy4tvlCwc
You Displease Me
You displease me greatly and I ignore the both of you.
August 19 at 9:07pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram It's real great that just for going to a serious Catholic school, I get to have a HEADMASTER OF A CATHOLIC SCHOOL CALL EVERYONE LIKE ME ARROGANT IN PUBLIC. I'm sure Trinity, Ambrose, and JPII all are real proud of you, John. You really do them proud when you insult people on Facebook for no reason. It's a real credit to the education.
JUST KIDDING HA HA HA IT'S JUST A JOKE, TONGUE IN CHEEK YOU GUYS
August 19 at 9:15pm · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict This guy is the headmaster of a school? I'm shocked, shocked.
August 19 at 9:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Tom, I don't think that's necessary: John seemed to have missed the context of our snips at Peregrine.
August 19 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram So what if he missed it? It doesn't justify anything that he came in without context when he just said bad stuff about our entire school.
August 19 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ed - he admitted himself he was being "merely provocative."
August 19 at 9:29pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram I mean, yeah, I could come into a heated argument where people are being all defensive about being white and saying retaliatory stuff against an Indian guy - it wouldn't justify me canning all white people. Screw that circumstantial nonsense; if you say horrible nonsense about me, my friends and colleagues, we deserve an apology for such a stupid "joke."
August 19 at 9:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://vimeo.com/m/37683622
Rainy Day Women No. 12 & 35
Well, they’ll stone ya when you’re trying to be so good They’ll stone ya just a-like they said they would They’ll stone ya when you’re tryin’ to go home Then…
August 19 at 9:40pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Max Summe I appreciate that this thread gets a soundtrack from time to time....
August 19 at 9:43pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Heated discussion? ha. this is all twaddle. Scottegrine Bonaweinberg sets up a straw man, beats a drum and the TAC interblagactivists get all up in a tizzy. Its laughable, stupid and pointless.
I prod I prod I prod because it entertains. I need not justify my basic education to anyone, least of all a pseudonymous troll.
In the words of Bender Bending Rodriguez: Bite my shiny metal ass
August 19 at 9:44pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Futurama references are always appropriate at all times.
August 19 at 9:45pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia ^do you have magisterial evidence?^
August 19 at 9:46pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley "Si aliqui audet dicere quod referentia ad futuramam sint aliquando non conveniens, anathema sit" -- (Council of Liberfaciei, 2008, canon xviii)
August 19 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick And I thought that his couldn't escalate anymore than it already had. . . (By the way discussion is a great way to find out you're wrong too! Throwing out thoughts at 17 other individuals who all read the same things doesn't make everyone agree! We don't just nod and continue on our way. I think I learned a lot of humility through Socratic dialogue. Entering a class being absolutely certain and leaving it being dazed and confused and seeking more answers isn't easy!)
August 19 at 10:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I think we should periodically resurrect this thread, just because.
August 19 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the next perfect number is 8128.... good luck
August 19 at 10:14pm · Unlike · 3
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Shannon Maguire I agree with Isak Benedict and Lauren Ogrodnick above--my personal vice of arrogance has little to do with where I did my undergraduate degree. I am very proud of having made it through TAC, and I am still exceedingly happy that such a place exists. I am also proud of what has happened in my life since then.
I didn't read everything in the curriculum, I didn't understand everything that I did read, and I didn't participate as much as I should have in every class, because frankly, I didn't have a brilliant mind to match many of my classmates'. If anything, I was humbled by attending TAC.
It's really irritating when some people paint all "TAC"ers with one brush, as if each person gets stamped with the same personality upon graduation, and any differences or growth beyond the degree are irrelevant. I dated one of these people for a short time--quite awkward, I must say.
August 19 at 10:28pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley You keep talking, but you don't seem to understand what you say.
August 19 at 10:41pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Would you sketch out the principle texts you would use for a four year college curriculum that intends to teach theology? In what order would you present those texts?
August 19 at 10:47pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Ok, be specific: would Freshman theology involve reading the Bible? what additional texts would you add? The Catechism? Dei Verbum?
If you really want a defense of TAC's curriculum, a communication of your view of a good curriculum might help us see what common ground there is to start from.
August 19 at 11:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Are you saying that freshman year would not involve studying anything besides theology?
August 19 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think what the founders of TAC thought was that a strong foundation in logic and philosophy would help students of theology see the line dividing Faith and reason. Furthermore, it would help theologians begin to understand the faith (remember, "fides quaerens intellectum") by giving them places from which they can both defend the articles of the Faith against objections and show the harmony of the deposit of faith with the truths discoverable by natural reason.
August 19 at 11:18pm · Like · 7
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Edward Langley Part of the questiop, then, would be should theology (as opposed to catechesis) begin with the articles of faith or should it begin with the preambles and progress to the articles, as St. Thomas does in the Summa.
None of this is to deny that the articles of Faith are the first principles of Sacred Theology. Sometimes, however, what is first "by nature" (to use a technical phrase) is not first in the pedagogical order.
August 19 at 11:20pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Mr. Berquist explicitly denied that TAC was a great books school.
August 19 at 11:29pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The curriculum of TAC is designed to provide the various aids one needs to fruitfully begin to study theology: the reason more "Sacred Theology" is taught at TAC is probably that "the Founders" judged that most college-age students weren't ready for a formal study of theology.
After all, in the medieval schools, Sacred Theology was studied after a long, rigorous curriculum of philosophy.
August 19 at 11:33pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I've never implied that the articles of Faith were all contained by St. Thomas: after all some of them (such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption) were only recognized as such long after St. Thomas died.
August 19 at 11:35pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "Catechesis is something entirely different" That's exactly what I was saying: should the study of the science of Theology begin with rote memorization of the articles of the Faith, or with the philosophical precursors to such a study?
August 19 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "Well, it is a Great Books school. It says it is, and it reads James. It is what it is. If it is not a Great Books school, it does not teach sacred theology either."
Mr. Berquist is on record denying that TAC is a great books school.
August 19 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure, but should neophytes begin by studying the Immaculate Conception?
August 19 at 11:45pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Should theology be taught by telling the students: "Go study whichever article of Faith happens to pique your interest?"
August 19 at 11:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Dude, Edward, why?
Perescott is just a beating drum
August 19 at 11:46pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes. Also, I'm trying to distract myself from writing a master's thesis.
August 19 at 11:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley To prepare them to study theology, perhaps?
August 19 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm still curious what "studying theology" would look like. Presumably, it doesn't match what I did while reading St. Thomas on the Trinity and the Sacraments in class.
August 19 at 11:55pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley How should I go about studying the Trinity? Read the relevant encyclicals and council documents?
August 19 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Mr. Berquist. (Marcus) Not Dr. Berquist.
August 20 at 12:00am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "You both seem incapable of arguing about this subject like mature thinkers. I am not beating a drum. I am making true statements about Catholic education and sacred theology, and pursuing a line of argumentation in support of these true statements, which you are unable to address."
Peregrine, perhaps you are stating things and arguing from them: but you are not answering my questions about your understanding of the "true statements". In fact, I think a lot of what you say is true, but I either disagree with your understanding of the truth or the implications you suppose it has. If you want to argue with us and not just pontificate at us, you should answer our questions.
August 20 at 12:02am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley And, as far as I can see, most of the misrepresentation in this thread is on your side: I have made very few statements of fact.
August 20 at 12:02am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Take my most recent question: If I were to study the Trinity, how should I go about it?
August 20 at 12:15am · Like
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Edward Langley If the goal of TAC is "to prepare students to study theology" then why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind? Why does it spend years studying geometry and music? Is this beautiful? Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?
1) "Why does it not help students develop a theological habit of mind?"
- Describe the "theological habit of mind"
2) "Why does it spend years studying geometry and music?"
- Because the study of geometry sharpens the logical abilities of the mind and music disposes one's passions, helping to develop the virtues necessary to fruitfully pursue the study of theology.
3) "Is this beautiful?"
- Not sure what the question is.
4) "Does geometry and music and Marx and Hegel prepare one to gain a deeper understanding of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity?" (I'm not sure what "the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Trinity" is :))
- see (2): Marx and Hegel promote errors which help us understand the philosophical concepts that Sacred Theology uses better.
August 20 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Edward - we did this a few months back with tutors and all - in another thread (quoted by Frater Edmund) and it gets no where. Scot (Peregrine) doesn't care to be convinced of anything. He is right and we are infidels in his mind. In fact, we are worse than infidels -- because we masquerade as Catholics.
It is impossible to change his mind. That "debate" ended with the tutor (who is eminently kind and charitable) unfriending him. There was no other solution.
My question is if Scott (aka Peregrine) hates TAC so much, why did he apply (and attend Freshman year in part) 3 or 4 times? He was in my class, and the class ahead of me, and another behind me and I believe in another years before. Perhaps this is an issue of rejecting that which rejected you -- it happens all the time in relationship break-ups.
And why did the college keep letting him back in?
August 20 at 12:24am · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley "What have I misrepresented, Edward?"
Tell me if you understood the intent of this exchange correctly:
"Peregrine Bonaventure It's telling that TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason, Aristotle or Euclid or valid syllogism. That must be because you want to be seen as the smartest people on the planet. Sounds a little insecure to me,
August 18 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Have you even read question one of the prima pars? If you did, you wouldn't make such a completely idiotic statement.
August 18 at 5:21pm · Like · 8
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Edward Langley Because TAC generally promotes Aquinas's understanding of the relation between fatih and reason.
Peregrine Bonaventure If you understood Catholic theology, Edward Langley, and the Faith, you would understand that the first part of the Summa is not the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology. TAC clearly produces arrogant goats, who would rather dodge real issues with obfuscations and false attacks, instead of addressing the fundamental flaw of its curriculum, which results in a kind of blunted and arrogant reason that is incompatible with genuine Faith.
August 18 at 5:35pm · Like"
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Did I ever say that "the first part of the Summa is the source or set of the principle data of sacred theology."? No, I responded to your claim that "TAC is unable to admit that theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths" by pointing out that St. Thomas (and, consequently, TAC) promotes a very different view of theology at the very heart of what TAC promotes as a good guide to the study of theology.
August 20 at 12:25am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It's an obsession -- and he gets some kind of kick out of it. Do what is recommended for the treatment of tantrumming children and walk away.
August 20 at 12:26am · Unlike · 8
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John Kunz Hahahaha ok. I'm actually now sorry that I spent a bit of time writing an actual response to one of these question when the above is written. As Shakespeare might have said, "thyself upon thyself".
August 20 at 12:28am · Like · 3
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John Kunz I love that we're around 600 comments on this thread. Was nice to see you all... But this is nothin short of a waste of time.
August 20 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau We could have a better discussion if we just addressed one another. Not out of arrogance but out of wisdom.
August 20 at 12:29am · Like · 1
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John Kunz I studied with some of the c'dom "professors" while doing grad & post grad studies in Rome... I assumed that they were unemployable because they were able to get Jobs at Chrystendom...
August 20 at 12:31am · Like
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Edward Langley I'll give you a hint, look at Joe Zepeda's interpretation of the events:
"Joe Zepeda Come on, Scott, you know that's not what he said. He was pointing out that your characterization of TAC is straightforwardly wrong. The first part of the Summa is very clear that theology "proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not reason" - and TAC takes St. Thomas to be right about that. Therefore your characterization is wrong. That's all there was to it. [Notice the absence of any premise asserting that the Summa is the "source or principal set of data of sacred theology".] I probably should follow my own advice and not respond at all ... oh well."
August 20 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I wish you would ask yourself "Why might a bunch of educated people not want to argue with me? Why would someone who has spent at least four years of his life arguing with people who hold all sorts of strange opinions find my attitude off-putting?"
August 20 at 12:33am · Like · 4
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John Herreid How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck graduated from TAC?
August 20 at 12:37am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley My claim is that TAC promotes St. Thomas's (and, by the way, the Church's) understanding of the relationship between faith and reason to be true. St. Thomas very explicitly claims in ST I.1 a.8: "Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God." Consequently, TAC teaches us that "theology proceeds from assent to divinely revealed truths, not from reason." Thus (a) you misrepresented TAC's position on Sacred Theology. (b) you either misunderstood or misrepresented my reply to your accusations: I never said "the Summa is the 'source or principal set of data of sacred theology'," I merely said that "TAC promotes this view and this view contradicts your claim about TAC".
Perhaps some TACers think that you can demonstrate the existence of the Holy Trinity: Personally, I've never met one. In my Senior theology class on the Trinity with Dr. MacArthur, Dr. MacArthur emphasized over and over again how the ground and source of St. Thomas's exposition of the Trinity (using the Doctors and Fathers of the Church as well as the acts of the Ecumenical Councils) is the assent of Faith to matters beyond reason's grasp.
August 20 at 12:48am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley i.e. if some TACers think the Trinity is demonstrable, they didn't get that idea from TAC.
August 20 at 12:49am · Like · 7
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Edward Langley TAC definitely teaches and emphasizes natural theology, BTW, but I've never heard anyone suggest that natural theology is complete.
August 20 at 12:50am · Like · 4
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John Kunz The wagons may be circled. But that's just Darwinian.
August 20 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "which afford more time and space for Freud and Euclid than it does for the doctors of the Church combined."
Um, Last time I checked St. Thomas was a doctor of the Church. We spend four semesters reading St. Thomas. We spend two semesters on Euclid and two or three classes on Freud.
August 20 at 1:17am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley We also read St. Augustine, St. Athanasius and St. John Damascene, all of whom are either Fathers or doctors of the Church: in fact, we probably spend more hours in and out of class reading St. Augustine than almost anyone else in the program.
August 20 at 1:19am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley "In addition, it does not employ this teaching as a principle in the instruction of sacred theology, but merely as a maxim."
Yes it does, in senior theology St. Thomas and the tutor emphasize the necessity of Faith.
August 20 at 1:20am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Also, when the Church gives instructions on how to study Theology, it has often said "Study St. Thomas". Perhaps more recent popes have been less explicit in this matter, but it can hardly be said that promoting Aquinas's understanding of theology is not acting in accord with the Church's wishes on the matter. Or else, if it is, perhaps you should talk to the Dominicans about how they form their novices.
August 20 at 1:22am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, I'm not sure how one could read St. Augustine and think that Sacred Theology is equivalent to natural theology.
August 20 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How do you propose to teach the Faith in a way that the student absolutely cannot reject?
August 20 at 1:29am · Like
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John Kunz It's not one of a fool.
August 20 at 1:29am · Like
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John Kunz Oh - and if you read the loooooong response I wrote earlier today, it addressed most of your concerns, but you haven't responded.
August 20 at 1:30am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Yeah, go read that response and then tell me that TACers don't try to reason with you.
August 20 at 1:38am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny, when you say things like "That's a very sweet sentiment, but I would not say that constitutes a credible approach to theology. Yes, it's good that you read a few of other Doctors and theologians of the Church, in addition to Saint Thomas. But any graduate of TAC is free to reject the Faith or reject the principles of sacred theology." my study of St. Augustine causes little "Pelagian" alarm bells to start ringing.
Do you really think that any human institution or even the Church could propose the Faith to someone in sucha way that they were no longer free to reject the Faith? Sure, if God gave them the gift of Faith, they will receive and profit from instruction; but without that gift, all instruction here below is fruitless.
August 20 at 1:42am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger First my apologies for the offense given by my rather crude remarks. In my defense, however, I point out that sometime between the initial post and my first post Peregrine blocked me (I know not why) and as I knew not the properties of such action, I was mystified that upstanding gentlemen from TAC were continuing to denigrate him (since at that time it was just a beat down and not the more recent reasoned arguments). It seemed unfair to me and the seeming display of arrogance and scorn merited some redress. I hope that's understandable. You may note that I deleted most my comments. I left, however, my only question.
Contrary to some opinion, I am very favorable to TAC though I have never met any graduates. My concerns are over the predominant method of seminar as well as the theology program (but that's a problem I likely have with any university, so it's no particular dig on TAC). Thanks to Edward, I was reminded that it is preparatory theology merely, though still the wisdom of Leo XIII's order of studies stands, which has a tradition spanning 800 years and is traceable to the Fathers of the Church. I also see the prudence of the older prescription limiting laymen in theological instruction; to put it simply they lack the evangelical councils, a necessary aid in that study which which can easily be a danger to one's own soul. Moreover, I don't regard the seminar format as suitable to such study. My own theology training was mostly unspeakably bad.
I am familiar with the seminar method myself since it was how I had learned. I may remind all that the college's patron was not known for his verbosity under St. Albert, and also that Pieper, a Thomist, reminds us that intellectus is passive, not active. Silence is a rule of St. Benedict, but also a rule of philosophy whatever school one is from (but most evident among the Pythagoreans). Certainly disputation sharpens the mind, making it capable of receiving wisdom, but wisdom does not come from within or at least not from ourselves. A loquacious soul may be clever, but is incapable of being wise.
My point of the Latin was merely to remind all that contemporary education falls far short of its precursors, but it is a failing in earlier years especially. By contemporary college age, back in the day, one had at least two ancient languages mastered, as well as literature, logic and preparatory philosophy (and for the Jesuits they had often begun teaching as well). TAC is necessarily limited in its aims due to this.
I agree with Matthew's original statement that the emphasis on Aquinas and Aristotle is TAC's strongest suit. Nevertheless, it is not nor can be some rival to the schools of old, whether ancient, Renaissance, or Medieval. Taking note of one's deficiencies which in my case are great, ought to put ourselves in a bit more modest attitude.
Finally, I do not know just how trollish Peregrine is. However, in all the vituperations at me, the sole question I asked was not acknowledged it seemed, and so I leave it.
For those interested, I strongly recommend Fr. Thomas Hughes book on Ignatian education (ca. 1900). This is my area of expertise if I have any. It requires more than one reading and some time between and a bit of pondering too; it's interesting that the author wrote to remind the Jesuits themselves how much different their schools were even at the end of the 19th century. (The Ratio Studiorum read alone leaves one with too many questions). The Jesuits, the first teaching order, can lay claim to being the summit of Christian education. It seems superior to Erasmus' plan which is more akin the origin of our own watered down fare -- and not surprisingly because he was friends with those who established the English schools that disintegrated bit by bit over the centuries.
August 20 at 1:46am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Hint Edward (if you want to speed this up): PB (or SW) doesn't believe that the Socratic method is at all appropriate for the study of Theology because it implies that the student can wrestle with ideas or even discuss how something might be reasonable. Students are the be taught systematically using doctrinal sources only. No interpretation is permitted. (ok, go back to your argument)
August 20 at 1:57am · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley My question is not "are we free to reject the principles of Faith . . ." it is "can the principles of Faith be put to a student in a way that he cannot reject?"
Perhaps you've been somewhere like that: somewhere that presents the Faith so clearly and coherently with teachers that are so holy that they can impress the virtue of Faith on the souls of their students. If so, I wish you'd tell us about that school, so we can learn their methods and reform TAC's curriculum accordingly.
August 20 at 2:04am · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom Peregrine Bonaventure Does Jody Haaf Garneau accurately summarise your position on teaching sacred theology?
August 20 at 2:06am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Anyways, this is my current situation, perhaps I will return tomorrow to see your responses to our questions: http://xkcd.com/386/
xkcd: Duty Calls
xkcd.com
Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors).
August 20 at 2:08am · Like · 7 · Remove Preview
John Ruplinger Of course one must ask what is Socratic dialogue first. Do tutors lead students to aporia or invite sophists to do the same? What of the many youths who silently listen as in the Lesser Hippias in which Socrates interlocuter is embarressed. How often do the youths stay quiet? Are you familiar with Quigley and John Senior (IHS)? What do you think of the dumb ox? Did you know the Jesuits were forbidden to let students take notes or use lecture notes? Things to ponder merely.
August 20 at 2:16am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger can u name a dialogue in which 2 youths are the main interlocutors?
August 20 at 2:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman 619 and still amusing.
August 20 at 8:45am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Edward Langley: Really? when I studied St. Thomas, we just called him "Thomas" and was instructed by the tutor to think of it as a mental exercise, like Euclid.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
August 20 at 9:01am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I wonder if Perescott Wienventure can name the seven liberal arts (hint: theology isn't one of them)? and then wonder why anyone would study music or geometry at a liberal arts school.
I suppose his contention would be that you shouldn't study liberal arts at a liberal arts school.
August 20 at 9:20am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger interesting mb. Most schools study no liberal arts. And one i know of that does produces courteous well born gentleman
August 20 at 9:26am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia well, I'm neither well-born (how would a school produce that?) nor particularly courteous - especially with pseudonymous trolls who have been sounding the same blaring trumpet blast for years. He never answers me, but just calls me names. Like thug. On the bright side, he finally after a couple of years learned to spell my 6 letter last name
August 20 at 9:29am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Crazy like pineapples
August 20 at 9:30am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia The linguistics of pineapple are Cray cray
http://www.expolugha.tn/wp-content/uploads/pineapple.jpg
www.expolugha.tn
www.expolugha.tn
August 20 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Chris Bissex It's becoming intimidating to comment on this thread, lest one accidentally make a comment that has already been made...
August 20 at 9:41am · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia it hasn't stopped anyone else. Plus, this thread is just a rehash of about ten others of the same stripe.
August 20 at 9:43am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger i apologize for being obtuse. My questions above have two points: what is called Socratic dialogue upon inspection is not and such dialogues are often only for the benefit of the silent youths listening (or reader). Secondly there were methods of learning that are now extinct as far as i know.
August 20 at 9:56am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I almost responded in earnest... Edward, you set a bad example.
August 20 at 10:09am · Unlike · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm amused at the people that come out of the wood work the longer this goes on. Also does anyone else get the feeling that we have Dr. McArthur and Mr. Berquist laughing at us right now, or more so laughing at what they've created? Didn't they both always say that they were creating Martyrs for the Church? Haha!
August 20 at 10:31am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Lauren, one of the things I learned from both of them, is not to engage in a conversation when one knows that there is no real desire to listen, understand, and explain on the part of the other.
The program of study at TAC disposes the mind to wisdom, by disposing the mind to thing reasonably. In this way, we do not reason to the faith, but we think reasonably about the faith.
However, while we have been given this gift, the one thing we were not given was that we were not told how to use this gift. How do we use the gift of thinking reasonably in age that rejects reason? Nevertheless, all graduates are charged to defend the Church and her teachings "in season and out of season."
August 20 at 10:40am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I suppose the medieval universities present Faith as somethign to be reasoned towards, anyways.
August 20 at 10:41am · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, et al. one reason I've been "setting a bad example" is to avoid misunderstandings about TACer's attitudes to the rest of the world. Especially for people who cannot see anything of the other side.
August 20 at 10:43am · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I do forget that some people cannot see all the comments.
August 20 at 10:43am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yeah, but it would probably be more fruitful for you to work on your Thesis Ed
August 20 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Anthony Crifasi If Dr. McArthur were here: "636 comments?!? This is all just mental..."
August 20 at 10:45am · Edited · Like · 7
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Lauren Ogrodnick "Class dismissed! All of you go spend an hour in the chapel!"
August 20 at 10:46am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I want to get to a thousand ....
August 20 at 10:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hahahahaha Perescott Wienventureburg calls the comments inane! Really!? Your assertion is still bare jackassery. I suppose starting with Holy Scripture is reasoning toward...... bah. Edward you got me started trying to respond. Never mind
August 20 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick "No seriously, at least an hour, some of you should probably stay in there for good and get in line for confession also."
August 20 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, those medieval universities only began teaching theology after years of math, philosophy, music, etc . ..
August 20 at 10:52am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia da da da da da da da
August 20 at 10:52am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger but, Daniel how can you claim i do not egage in conversation if no one has responded to my questions? Be assured i am searching for the answer. Lost arts are hard to unbury.
August 20 at 10:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia da da da da
August 20 at 11:03am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick If you're not familiar with the heresies/heretics, how do you respond to them? Oops! I didn't just do that!!
In other thoughts, I'm wondering if the extent of everyone's participation in this conversation here is an accurate representation of how they are in class. Those that come in strong and then give up (rightfully or wrongfully) and start watching the clock, those that never give up, those that try to wrap things up, those that just start throwing random comments to keep everyone friends, those that come out of the wood work as class time comes to the end etc.
August 20 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i simply asked a Socratic question: what is Socratic dialogue? If TAC doesnt know, who does? (Before responding please see my list of seeming aporeia producing questions above)
August 20 at 11:05am · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick John, there was a different comment inbetween that Michael was responding to. I think your questions are the ones being thrown to the side while they address someone else still
August 20 at 11:07am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Sorry Ruplinger, I don't know what Socratic dialogue is. I do know trollish jackassery, bald assertion, and inability to pick up on sarcasm..... but that's my gnosis coming out again
August 20 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and I can only stop (Edward Langley) on perfect numbers, we passed six, 28 and 496.... I cannot stop until 8128. By divine decree from the lost gnostic work of St. Thomas "De Numerologiae" we studied it in junior math
August 20 at 11:15am · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict This Peregrine moron reminds me of a much less funny, much less charismatic, and much less entertaining Ignatius J. Reilly. I don't even know where to begin, man. Some of your comments are the dumbest things I've ever read on the Internet.
"TAC does not support reasonable discussion on sacred truths." That is a patently, observably crackpot claim.
"But sadly, your only "argument" is that no one besides yourselves is able to understand you. You don't present an argument. You dodge and evade and attack and joke." Mr. Hercules Langley has done a fantastic job of attempting to clean the shit out of Bonaventure's stables on that count. You're really not going to find a more reasonable and kind interlocutor.
August 20 at 11:19am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger my questions are serious, perhaps tinged somewhat ironic. Socrates was also thought a troll.
August 20 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but much less repetitive than our own Scoregrine Bonaburgwienture
August 20 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ^^^That's Ignatius J. Reilly talking. "With the collapse of the medieval system, the gods of Chaos, Lunacy and Bad Taste gained ascendancy." Is your real problem, Bonaventure Cheevy, that you long for the days of old when swords were bright and steeds were prancing?
August 20 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Again Mr. Ruplinger, he was referring to someone else.
August 20 at 11:22am · Like
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Michael Beitia and dirt farmers farmed actual dirt
August 20 at 11:23am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "^This isn't argument, it's just contradiction"^
"no it isn't"
August 20 at 11:27am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman John, I am sorry if my comments came off as directed toward you. From what I have read of yours, you seem to be a reasonable fellow. I am sorry that you are in the middle of this whirlwind since you seem to have a serious question in mind.
August 20 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Isak, the colorful prose that you have put on display brought this to mind:
I have always appreciated the diversity of minds that come to and graduate from TAC, so many different interests. That is one of the things that I really appreciate about a liberal education. No one is educated to be a master of any one discipline upon completion of a liberal education. Rather, he (hopefully) has mastered the ability to reason well. Consequently, many TAC grads go into diverse fields: Theology, Philosophy, Law, Education at all levels, Engineering, Architecture, Physics, the Medical Sciences, Performing Arts, Visual arts... the list goes on. Most importantly, TAC has fostered the religious and priestly vocations of 11% of its graduates. There is something about a liberal education that really enables the liberally minded man to excel wheresoever he feels called.
August 20 at 11:35am · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict I don't know about that, Bonaventure. You could use a little color in your stale prose yourself. Right now you're just wearing the same shirt out in public every day, and it's starting to stink. You've consistently failed to engage anyone kind enough to entertain your (much more hostile than mine) attacks on an entire school. These are attacks you are not qualified to make, having failed to succeed in the program itself.
You have consistently failed to listen, avoided pointed questions, mocked your interlocutors, and generally behaved as a stubborn child. You have not made an argument. You have made bald claims without support and expected everyone to bow before you.
Who do you think you are? The Pope? Think again. Your words are those of a poor demented sap.
To everyone else - if I've offended you, I surely apologize. This is clearly a waste of time and I've simply become frustrated.
August 20 at 11:35am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger i only see the "more" reasonable half of the whirlwind. I cant imagine the mad raving ghastly dead horse that is the other side.
August 20 at 11:38am · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia you care too much. I may have been frustrated on this same thread two years ago, but you get used to the rhythm of the Bonavenburg drum. You can even dance to it!
August 20 at 11:38am · Like · 4
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Jason Van Boom John Ruplinger made the 666th comment. Does that bring good luck or bad?
August 20 at 11:39am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Daniel - what can I say. I think in stories and poetry and myths. Bonaventure will say that means I can't hope to approach sacred theology. I say that man is creative as God is creative, and that art can save souls. Perhaps Bonaventure is simply artless. I'm glad he has such intimate familiarity with the TRUE and PROPER ways to come to know and love the Trinity though.
August 20 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Haven't you read your "de Numerologiae"?
August 20 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom I was never given the fullness of Sacred Theology. So, no.
August 20 at 11:41am · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom Here's the cover of the first appearance of Groot:
August 20 at 11:42am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict "Miniver cursed the commonplace
And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;
He missed the mediæval grace
Of iron clothing.
Miniver scorned the gold he sought,
But sore annoyed was he without it;
Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,
And thought about it."
August 20 at 11:46am · Like
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John Ruplinger is my observation off base: they accuse pg of not answering questions, ad hominems, bad arguments, no arguments, etc. PG has won: he has successfully turned his interlocutors into himself.
August 20 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I can't speak for anyone else, but I just throw that stuff at him because it is amusing. Some people can't be taught. He's back to misspelling my six letter last name
August 20 at 11:53am · Like
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Jason Van Boom This thread has grown too long to be a medium of reasonable discussion. Which is why I post ridiculous things.
August 20 at 11:54am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia That's a terrible strategy, Van Boom. I only post deadly serious, insightful commentary with the full authority of tradition, and magisterial teachings
August 20 at 11:55am · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger THEN STOP. feeding him, mb. It is grossly unkind. Pray for him instead. You are encouraging his unmitigatable ire. Besides he has a point he cannot articulate in his blind fury. Argue for him instead. Take his side: thus u could outmedieval him and calm his rage.
August 20 at 12:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger to feed a fury is worse than be one. He is tormented. The medieval disputant would argue either side. Help your brother out. Show him what medieval really is.
August 20 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The long history of weirdness with this guy precludes that method, John. I don't defend TAC as a matter of course, nor do I think it is perfect. And frankly I don't know anyone else on this thread personally until you get back to Kunz. (Peterson excepted) so I just aim to entertain
August 20 at 12:03pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia ...myself
August 20 at 12:04pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger prayer is precluded at TAC? That is a good start mb. I believe pg accused tac of being noncatholic too
August 20 at 12:08pm · Like
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JA Escalante might "Peregrine Bonaventure" be an account run by Matthew to troll the TAC alumni? PERFORMANCE ART?
August 20 at 12:12pm · Unlike · 14
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John Ruplinger mb, let me ask. Is it the common aim of the liberal arts at tac to merely amuse oneself? while imperiling the souls of trolls. Is that what it is for? Is this Pieper's leisure? Kyrie eleison.
August 20 at 12:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Escalante! At last a familiar face!
August 20 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante I think my theory has something to it
August 20 at 12:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia John, I'm no Callicles for you questioning. I don't play the "let me ask you something" game
August 20 at 12:19pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Still at it? And this my friends is why there will be no online version of the TAC program any time soon. Facebook = THE worst way to have a discussion (especially with multiple participants)
August 20 at 12:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I have actually had many good conversation via Facebook. Yet, I am sure you are right that there will not be an online version of the TAC program.
August 20 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger DO NOT IGNORE THE TROLL. Beat him pound him smash him. But to my questions, not one response and only one acknowledgement. Am i wrong to be skeptical of the boasts of TAC? It is slightly offputting. Color me disappointed.
August 20 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Do you mean your question about the classroom method John?
August 20 at 12:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I suppose, and I can't speak for anyone here, that your question seems wildly tangential to the "is TAC bad at what it claims to do" thread. Personally, I think "Socratic method" is a bad way of describing the typical TAC classroom
August 20 at 12:37pm · Unlike · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau There is a history with the troll. Some of us have already had a 1000 comment thread with Scott (Peregrine) with some amazing discussion (on the alumni side) and absolutely no movement on his side. In fact, he escalates. The first time I engaged with him out of charity (to find the truth; to instruct the ignorant; and to down play his publicly offensive comments -- especially about the founders) but now I just don't engage.
August 20 at 12:37pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia ^You take the high road^
Some of us slog through the mud
August 20 at 12:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John, let me ask you a question:
What are the boasts of TAC?
August 20 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom John Ruplinger It's such a long thread, I don't know what you assert, question, or wonder about.
August 20 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 5
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John Ruplinger hardly tangential since it is the method claimed by tac grads and tutors. I raised both criticisms and alternatives. The lack of interested inquiry raises further concerns to the tac method vs. the Dumb Ox method which welcomed questions, considered and met objections, and took all sides like aristotle of any argument.
August 20 at 12:49pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom >> I raised both criticisms and alternatives.<<
How can one respond to them if he can't find them? Or easily read the context?
That's why I say this thread is TOO LONG.
August 20 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i am sorry they are lost in the whirl of dead horse beatings.
August 20 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia And the TAC method is what again?
(edit: 700!)
August 20 at 12:52pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger the boasts mb are scattered on this thread but why should i respond when tempered serious questions are ignored?
August 20 at 12:54pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom No, I'm being serious, for once.
John Ruplinger I
August 20 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia So is this "I won't respond because you won't"?
August 20 at 12:55pm · Like
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Jason Van Boom d probably agree with much of what you say. I could give you serius and reasonable replies. But the thread is too long.
August 20 at 12:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given that the troll is absent, I am willing to participate in a real discussion.
August 20 at 12:55pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I was going to try to give you a serious response, but I think your question needs questioning
August 20 at 12:56pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau John asked about the Socratic method. He asked if there are any examples of dialogues between only 2 young people. He is opposing that to the teacher crafting a discussion with one person he is drawing out the lesson with.
August 20 at 12:56pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I believe John was also one who put forward that learning is more passive than active (but that might have been the Ignatian education person above -- no idea of name now). The root of his question was whether or not the method used at TAC was effective (or even legit)?
August 20 at 12:57pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am really confused on why John hasn't restated his own questions since you have all asked him to in various ways. But there you go. He can now say I am misrepresenting him (or not)
August 20 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia TAC isn't the socratic method. It is more like the "dumb ox" he described above except all the scattered opinions and objections are from different sides of the table, since none of us have the wherewithal to keep it all in one mind
August 20 at 12:58pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I would also say it varies from one tutor to another (and that is more true now than when I attended in 1990's). I have heard some shocking stories about how some classrooms are run. So -- it is hard to say "TAC does this" when tutors have their own flavour.
August 20 at 12:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO ONE QUESTION (except mb). I wont say mb because if memory serves u didnt make them and i dont expect u to defend another's brag. To Jason i cannot write 700 words from a phone. My guess is it starts at post 616
August 20 at 1:00pm · Like
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JA Escalante Qua! Qua! Qua!
August 20 at 1:00pm · Like · 5
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Ben Limehouse ^ That's the mating call of the second semester TAC sophomore.
August 20 at 1:04pm · Unlike · 10
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JA Escalante TAC is neither Socratic method nor Scholastic method. It is Buchanan/Adler method, for better or for worse.
August 20 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I think John Ruplinger raises some good questions. John Senior makes a similar point in his thinly veiled polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture. Mr Berquist too, was ready to concede the faults of the seminar method, especially for theology (and indeed the theology tutorial when taught by Berquist or Neumayr was de facto a lecture). On the other hand, the seminar method is very good for certain things.
August 20 at 1:11pm · Like · 9
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JA Escalante I do think it would be much better if TAC stopped claiming to be "Socratic" anything
August 20 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Shannon Williams This ought to become a singles meet and greet forum, it'd be more fruitful.
August 20 at 1:14pm · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund But the seminar method is Socratic in the sense of "de-sedimentizing" concepts which people assume they understand when they don't. On the other hand, lead by a skilled tutor, it is an exciting way of uncovering what is implicit in what people already know, and in making distinct what they know confusedly.
August 20 at 1:14pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund (For both of the above see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../charles-de-koninck.../)
Charles De Koninck, Jacob Klein, and Socratic Logocentrism
sancrucensis.wordpress.com
The bi-lingual Quebecois journal Laval théologique et philosophique, has recently uploaded its archives to the web. This was the organ of Laval School Thomism, and the early issues contain lots of ...
August 20 at 1:14pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Both in philosophy and in theology learning consists largely in making distinct what one already knows confusedly; in philosophy what one knows by "common conceptions" (see blogpost linked above), and in theology what one knows by the sensus fidelium (see: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/)
August 20 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund That's the bell for vespers. I'm sure this thread will still be alive tomorrow, so till then.
August 20 at 1:17pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Thanks to Matthew J. Peterson's wording in the header for the thesis title slideshow, we now have a thread with a higher word count than most of those thesis papers.
August 20 at 1:17pm · Like · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau JA -- why do you say that about dropping Socratic? (curious)
August 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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JA Escalante Sorry Pater I think that's an awfully stretched sense of "Socratic" but I won't go into it further while you are vespering and thus unable to defend yourself
August 20 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom Unfollowing this thread. Good luck!
August 20 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Escalante is right. The closest I ever experienced to "Socratic" at TAC was me explaining props to others stuck at the board in Euclid. Other than that, it was more of discussion method, again, for better or worse, and not counting Neumayr or Berquist.
August 20 at 1:32pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia It was, fondly, a little like Meno
August 20 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger my response vanished. I will try later. Reread if u will my questions if u have time. Reconsider. I'll restate them better later. For now. Why was he called the Dumb Ox? Thanks for the the thoughtful responses.
August 20 at 2:15pm · Like
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Joel HF I always thought that a lot of the intra-TAC anguish about the program came from misleading advertising, as it were. People think that TAC proposes no positive teaching and that everything is left to students to discuss and decide for themselves, ala St. John's but with 4 years of "theology" tutorials. This was decidedly not my experience. At least not after the first two years.
The classroom method itself varies from tutor to tutor and it isn't really Socratic in any sense that Socrates (or even a law professor) would recognize.
Nor are the great books or the discussion methods the primary purpose of the school--at least not per Berquist or Neumayr. Some people bewailed this--too much Thomas, too much lecturing, not enough wonder. Personally, I was never much bothered by the fact that the school had an official (or quasi-official) doctrine.
August 20 at 2:31pm · Unlike · 9
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Isak Benedict I'm blocking Peregrine and unfollowing this thread. Sorry for any bad impressions I gave. I speak for myself and not on behalf of TAC or all TAC graduates, although I am much more thankful for my time there now than I used to be. This "conversation," however, is mostly sound and fury - and I just remembered that I will have to answer for every idle word, as will we all.
I wish you all the best - God bless and good luck. Keep the Faith!
August 20 at 2:40pm · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau For those who are actually still interested in the Socratic method, Mr Berquist left us this explanation: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-libera.../why-socratic-method
Why the Discussion (Socratic) Method? | Thomas Aquinas College
www.thomasaquinas.edu
One of the distinguishing features of Thomas Aquinas College is its Discussion Method of teaching. Though the technique is as old as Socrates, it has never been in vogue. Nor is it today. The vast majority of colleges here and abroad use the lecture method. Yet what Socrates saw in it over 2,000 yea…
August 20 at 3:01pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Neumayr (Sorry pedantry)
August 20 at 3:07pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And reading another Berquist lecture (Learning & Discipleship) he says this (which pertains to this fb discussion): "given the reputations of such lecturers {notorious dissenters and intellectual rogues}, those who attend might come expecting an intellectual brawl—them against us—and under such circumstances learning does not ordinarily take place. From disagreement, yes; from a brawl, less commonly." link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/.../Aquinas_Rev...
August 20 at 3:08pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Someone should compile a quotable Berquist page. It might not be as popular as a quotable Molly Gustin one but much more valuable.
August 20 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ack! That was the first TAC lecture of my freshman year! That caused a veritable poo-storm among the stiff-necked and unruly student body
August 20 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Hilarious: "Some of you, perhaps, will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your phonographs, and we regret that profoundly." (phonographs!!!??) Mr Berquist lecture
August 20 at 3:10pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau Classic rock
August 20 at 3:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the first confrontation I had with the head prefect was me listening to Minor Threat as loud as the stereo would go with the door locked. fun times.
August 20 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Joe Zepeda Margaret Grimm Blackwell this was a few hundred comments ago, but here is an online copy. https://drive.google.com/.../0B0_uLICa.../edit...
Zepeda_Joseph_Raphael Senior Thesis.pdf - Google Drive
docs.google.com
August 20 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Shannon you are my favorite
August 20 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma For some reason I see this thread going on for so long and becoming so huge that eventually it will subsume all of the internets into itself.
I think it may be the action of the world spirit coming to know itself.
August 20 at 5:50pm · Unlike · 5
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Jonathan Monnereau Behold! The Leviathan!
August 20 at 6:01pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I appreciate the thoughts and consideration but i see little interest in discussion. I like TAC and all and am prone to hypercriticism. Several comments help me to understand better the situation. And hopefully the storm of post 666 is over.
August 20 at 6:05pm · Like
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Sean Plus Anne Schniederjan Can someone summarize this
August 20 at 6:06pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger A lengthy demonstration of the difference between discussion, debate, and thermonuclear troll warfare.
August 20 at 6:16pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia well, according to the wiki, lighting a troll on fire is the preferred method...
August 20 at 6:34pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Or turn them into stone by drawing them into an argument so long that the sun comes up?
August 20 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia go home Sceregritt Bonwienventureburg, you're drunk
August 20 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you misspelled "gangsta" too. you really need spell check
August 20 at 7:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hence the straw man
August 20 at 7:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia more straw men. Are you a farmer? Did they make scarecrows up in Canada?
August 20 at 7:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we have it on the grand authority of Scottrine Wienventure that they don't. Why argue with such an august interlocutor, master of repetition, insult and bold claim?
August 20 at 7:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Can't do it. My tolerance for smarmy, self-satisfied, obnoxious, assume-what-you-prove, douchebaggery is limited.
Real discussion is impossible, because things get way twisted through his pathological neurosis regarding TAC. I don't need to convince him, waste of time, but caution against anyone taking him seriously. The notion that he "just wants to know" blew out the window many threads ago
August 20 at 8:06pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele finally realized what this thread reminded me of http://online.wsj.com/.../SB10001424127887324904004578539...
A Different Take on Reality TV: 18 Hours of Swimming Salmon
online.wsj.com
Norwegians love their boring shows, from the progress of a ferry boat to a 30-hour interview.
August 20 at 8:09pm · Unlike · 4
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Peter Halpin You all need to do something else.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs
ANCHORMAN Brick Killed A Guy
hahahahahahahahahaha i dont own this. But this OWNS
August 20 at 8:16pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I wasn't trying to illuminate the faith, o pseudonymous troll
August 20 at 9:34pm · Like
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Pater Edmund "An Exception to Godwin's Law: On the Absence of Reductio ad Hitlerum Arguments in Long and Rancorous Online Discussions of the Titles of Undergraduate Theses From Small Catholic Liberal Arts Colleges"
August 21 at 12:58am · Unlike · 9
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Pater Edmund So many comments, and I still think Aaron Gigliotti had the best one: "Do You Want to Share an Apartment in Pasadena: The Relationship Between Insular Catholic Colleges and the Failure to Launch."
August 21 at 1:03am · Like · 9
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Pater Edmund JA Escalante, I agree that the meaning of "Socratic" is being a bit streched in my comment above, but not more than "Socratic" is usually streched.
August 21 at 1:04am · Like · 3
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JA Escalante oh so *I'm* a scoffer but Mr Gigliotti isnt. I see how it is, Pater
August 21 at 1:04am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I do think Joel HF has a good point about how some of the SJC inspired promotional material that the college uses is slightly misleading.
August 21 at 1:05am · Unlike · 4
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Pater Edmund Here's how a real scoffer summarized the theology tutorial at TAC (I'm not making this up):
«Freshman year the TACer reads the Bible and thinks "OMG this book is confusing; I'm glad I never have to read it again."
Sophomore year he reads Augustine against the Pelagians and thinks, "OMG this is depressing! I'm probably going to Hell and can do nothing about it; I hate theology!"
Junior year he reads the Prima Pars and thinks: "OMG! This makes so much sense!! I LOVE St Thomas!!!!! This is real theology! I'm never going to read anything except St Thomas ever again!!!! Thank you TAC for introducing me to this amazing writer! I Love my college!"» </sarcasm>
August 21 at 1:10am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund But JA, were you thinking of something like Joel's point when you said TAC should avoid calling what it does in any way "Socratic," or did you have something else in mind?
August 21 at 1:12am · Like
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JA Escalante It's more than slightly misleading; it verges on false advertising, kind of like the non-existent horses in the old pamphlets from the 90s. But TAC itself is very confused about what it's up to. Contra the FB personage whom I still think might be Peterson in disguise, TAC most definitely teaches theology, lots of it, it just does much of that surreptitiously. Here's the thing: SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something. This certainly involves theology; except that its position as regina sc is very oddly related to the SJC method TAC imported. Too often,what one ends up with is neither fish nor fowl.
August 21 at 1:15am · Edited · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Basically, TAC classes and method are to Catholic wisdom what the State is to the Church on the Maritain model. Checkmate, Pater
August 21 at 1:17am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund But this is where I think my pet theory about the analogy of confused knowledge in philosophy and theology comes in.
August 21 at 1:18am · Like
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JA Escalante Say more. I think Matthew gets cash from FB if this hits 800.
August 21 at 1:19am · Like · 7
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Pater Edmund What TAC really understands itself as doing (but alas this doesn't come across in the promotional material), is peripatetic discussion. Recall that Aristotle's works were not strictly lecture notes as the many foolishly assert, but actually discussion outlines for walking around and talking.
August 21 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante um why did we never stroll for class then
August 21 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Because we were co-ed and girls like to chat sitting down.
August 21 at 1:21am · Like · 7
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JA Escalante so, TAC understands itself AS A ROSARY WALK? It all makes sense now!
August 21 at 1:21am · Like · 11
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JA Escalante "peripatetic" ahem ahem
August 21 at 1:22am · Like · 3
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JA Escalante but seriously...TAC half-understands what its doing as peripatetic discussion. But it also half-understands itself as teaching Catholic wisdom. It just leaves the relation of those two in practice to ad hoc improv on the part of tutors
August 21 at 1:24am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund No but seriously: here's my theory in philosophy learning is a matter of making distinct the very certain but confused and implicit knowledge that we have of the world. Ch. 1 of the Physics and all that jazz... Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition: "Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed knowledge, a fullness which they could as little realize to themselves, as the human mind, as such, can have all its thoughts present before it at once." (Newman) So there is no opposition between paripatetic discussion and Catholic Wisdom.
August 21 at 1:25am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think there are several questions you've raised. What is TAC doing? (good question) Does TAC understand what it is doing? (I kind of think who cares to this one -- except when it comes to final cause) and most importantly, Is what it is doing effective?
August 21 at 1:26am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau "Theology is a matter of clarifying the Revelation of Christ that is present in a very certain but confused way in the Apostolic tradition" Pater Edmund
Is that you or Newman talking? I kind of agree. Except it sounds more accurate to say seminal in place of 'confused'.
August 21 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But if Newman said that… I might have to just agree.
August 21 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund JA Escalante writes "SJC has as the aim of the class to have thought well about something. TAC *says* that too, but really it has as its aim to have arrived at the truth of something." I think that is precisely the difference between socratic and peripatetic discussion. SJC is Socratic; TAC is peripatetic. So I agree that the Perpatetic Socratic amounts to false advertising.
August 21 at 1:30am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Jody Haaf Garneau: the "confused" part was from me; I'm OK with seminal.
August 21 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Pater, no opposition between peripatetic method and the substance of Catholic wisdom. But TAC isn't entirely peripatetic; it has time constraints and wants to get at the truth in a hurry if necessary. We've all seen this, and it's bad. It would be better and more honest to just lecture in that case. Too, TAC isn't just method; its a curriculum, and the curriculum as it stands doesn't really have theology as regina scientiarum; it sort of can't. Like I said, it's in more of a Maritainian State to Church relation.
August 21 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Well, theology is Regina in two senses: the other sciences are ordered to her, and she is the judge of them. I think the TAC curriculum embodies the former and towards the end gets you to see the later, but without actually embodying the later much.
August 21 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think what TAC is trying to do is nearly impossible (and very heroic!) because the students are for the most part poorly prepared to receive it. So not only do they want to achieve a certain level of learning by the end, but they have to prepare the foundation in the students (or even more -- remove the impediments to learning) before proceeding. It is remarkable what they can do with a class of mostly publicly educated students in modern America in merely 4 years.
The learning model they emulate (classical model) never had such an uphill battle to fight.
I bristle at the accusation of the arrogance of the founders because the older I become, the more I am in awe of their humility to be willing to read and let me (and my classmates) make attempts at discussions on such lofty matters. Seriously -- maybe I could have benefited from more lectures -- but not really in the long run.
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Pater Edmund But flesh out the Maritain Church/State analogy a bit more.
August 21 at 1:36am · Like
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JA Escalante I mean there's no architectonic relation. The curriculum is self-standing
August 21 at 1:37am · Like
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JA Escalante I'm not saying that people can't put it all together; they can and do. But it's not built into the ratio studiorum
August 21 at 1:37am · Like
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JA Escalante anyhow we all know that the REAL regina scientiarum at TAC is math
August 21 at 1:38am · Like · 4
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JA Escalante I mean consider: no one really gets thrown out for not cutting it in freshman theology; freshman math is the only severe criterion
August 21 at 1:40am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund The Berquist - Steadman Dialogue is very relevant here.
August 21 at 1:45am · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund
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JA Escalante well Pater earlier you said "Physics and all that jazz"...and comparing the Physics to jazz would get you excommunicated by Berquist in a jiffy
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Pater Edmund
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Pater Edmund
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JA Escalante yes Mr Berquist had a clear conception of what he was up to. I'd just say that TAC as a whole never did, and never consistently embodied that "tutorial" idea
August 21 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund
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Pater Edmund OK, that I would agree with—particularly the admissions office and its propaganda never really understood the Berquist vision, or at least never really conveyed it.
August 21 at 1:49am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund The Berquist Steadman dialogue is here BTW:
http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED216573.pdf
August 21 at 1:50am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau That dialogue is kind of funny. It would have gone better if Mr Berquist could have done the questioning of the interviewer. I think that poor man had no idea how far off base his questions and semi-conclusions were.
August 21 at 1:51am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau by poor man, I mean Steadman
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Pater Edmund We used to do dramatic readings of that dialogue in the dorm late at night...
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JA Escalante But even Mr Berquist never managed to make theology loom large; "theology" in TAC practice meant bits of Thomas, not read in particularly useful order. Seriously, how many TAC grads came out being able to say anything about, for instance, the question of infused contemplation (unless they chose to write a thesis on it)? But that kind of thing is crucial to Catholic theology. Or, how many could name the theories of Incarnation, and which of them are considered orthodox and which aren't?
August 21 at 1:53am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund ... after discovering it in a library sale.
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JA Escalante that dialogue is the paradigm of the experience of the Guest Lecturer
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Pater Edmund I remember going over to the Berquists house once (I think sophomore year) and Mrs B asked me" "What's your favorite class this year?" I hesitated and Mr B said "You're supposed to say theology."
August 21 at 1:56am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau I had the best theology tutors. That helps a lot.
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Pater Edmund But I think you're right that he wasn't entirely successful in getting theology to loom as large as he wanted.
August 21 at 1:57am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ferrier, Berquist, MacArthur x 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau But you guys aren't getting what he is saying about the 'whole' -- there are different ways for theology to be primary. It is that to which the program is ordered. Being the #1 reason for failing isn't one of them.
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Pater Edmund 817: tell us about the cash Matthew J. Peterson—how much did you get?
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Pater Edmund Jody Haaf Garneau, no that's true, but the fact that so many more graduates seem to want to study philosophy than theology in grad school —is that actually true? or am I just making that up? Idk —anyway, if it is true it would support JA's point.
August 21 at 2:06am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Does it? It might be more a sign of their maturity after 4 years. Or the practical options for grad school. (options for financial opportunities or lack of are likely similar)
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Pater Edmund Fair enough: http://youtu.be/TjHbuPkUKUY?t=6m26s
How to Become a Superstar Student at Thomas Aquinas College
August 21 at 2:11am · Edited · Like · 4
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Jason Van Boom I created a fan page for this thread.
https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever
The Neverending Thread
This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
Community: 57 like this
August 21 at 2:13am · Unlike · 10
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Pater Edmund Joel's first sarcastic comment above is now becoming kind of true.
August 21 at 2:18am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante I feel the Development Office could use this. "Alumni involvement extremely high"
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Jody Haaf Garneau You were serious Jason!
August 21 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom Latest post on this thread's fanpage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Questions for Socratic discussion:
1) Is the Neverending Thread a part of Sacred Theology per se or per accidens?
2) What is its relation to Aristotle's doctrine of the eternity of the heavens?
3) Would Fabre consider it an organism?
4) If the Thread goes on forever, can it be bisected?
5) Is it a continuous quantity, or an ensemble of discrete units?
6) What would the Founding Fathers have said about it?
7) Would you like to go with me for a rosary walk?
August 21 at 2:26am · Like · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think we are all bored. Or have really big things to do like Edward's thesis.
August 21 at 2:29am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund https://soundcloud.com/sancrucensis/marcus-berquist-common
August 21 at 2:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have been reflecting on the current discussion and some previous remarks by the troll and I have come to this:
It seems to me that the fullness of theology and the assent unto is found in the mass, and nowhere else. (This is taught, perhaps more clearly, or at least more often, in the Eastern tradition). The fulness of the faith does not consist in a body of written (or unwritten) doctrine. Perhaps this is why Our Lord says, "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed..."
That being said, the study of Sacred Doctrine in a formalized manner can and ought to advance one's relationship with God. We do not study contemplation in a formalized way, because it is not the sort of thing that really can be, unless one is brought to it by God. The reason for this is that teaching properly involves only the ordering of concepts in the order of learning so that the student's intellect can properly receive them. A teacher cannot, properly speaking, move the will. A teacher can (and probably should) do certain things to attempt to positively dispose the will of the student, but in the end, the will can only be moved by God. Thus, Pater Edmund, when Berquist said that Theology ought to be your answer when asked "What is your favorite class' maybe that is because your response said more about you and the disposition of your will.
This is a dangerous type of argument to make, namely, "If you were good enough you would realize how good something is, and if you're not, then you won't." However, given the excellence of the course material that we study in theology, I feel confident in making such an argument.
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Daniel Lendman Further, JA Escalante, I object to the position that the admissions office never really got what the school was about. At least when my father-in-law, Tom Susanka was head of admissions I know that he would confer with the founders, particularly McArthur and Berquist about the school and what was essential to it, often. There are few alive today, I believe, who have a better appreciation of what the school is and is supposed to be than my father-in-law. That being said, I am not sure that is true of all those who were/are responsible for advertisement, nor necessarily for the admissions office today.
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Pater Edmund At some point Mr Coughlin (dean at the time) decided he had to do something about wrong expectations, and had the admissions people send the blue book to all applicants. It didn't make much difference.
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Pater Edmund "I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that faith is ... a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source. By this assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our creator and lord." http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm
August 21 at 2:50am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund http://youtu.be/2dP54XzK1ok
Man Faced Ox Progeny - Down Our Way
A little clip from 2004 at Thomas Aquinas College. This barbershop quartet was excellent. They could have been big... maybe they still can...
August 21 at 2:52am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman We had a great sound.
August 21 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Dissertation calls.
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Daniel Lendman ...and fully assented to the Faith.
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JA Escalante Daniel, that's just special pleading. The RCC has always regarded its theology as a textual corpus insofar as it is ecclesia docens
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JA Escalante but clever move
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Daniel Lendman That is fair. In that regard, i was merely trying to understand how one can take seriously what the troll said.
August 21 at 2:55am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante I grant that Mr Susanka knows what the school is about, or what it wants to be about; I think the problem was a) an unintentionally misleading use of "Socratic", and "discussion method" by Admissions, and b) problems inherent in the ratio studiorum which he might not have noticed, or if he did, might have just chalked up to human frailty. No one's fault
August 21 at 3:01am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante but I'm biased by my own experience. I left TAC for DSPT after two years because I wanted scholastic formation in its proper method. Let me tell you, learning logic (esp John of St Thomas) by lecture method felt like heaven after slogging through the Organon in "discussion method". But TAC still manages to work wonders despite what seems to me its somewhat ramshackle ratio, and I feel mostly patriotic feelings toward it
August 21 at 3:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You may be right. Something to think about also: TAC was wholly new. Nothing of its kind ever existed. I suppose we should not be surprised if the ratio and practice differ somewhat.
Here is another way to put it: How else could the school explain to people what it was doing? All the terms: "Socratic," "Discussion method," "Peripatetic," etc., all fall short. Socratic, and Discussion method, however, are close and they also are familiar enough in the preexisting academic categories that they seem to be reasonable choices for use.
August 21 at 3:06am · Like · 3
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JA Escalante oh sure. like I said, no one's fault
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JA Escalante and I agree with Jody that the founders were pretty heroic
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Daniel Lendman I also gained something from the DSPT course on Aristotelian logic. It was good to go back.
August 21 at 3:08am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just as aside, we aren't even close to the record for comments on a fb thread. That is: 584,444 (so start splicing those replies I suggest if you want to reach such infamy)
August 21 at 3:08am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau And still growing. oh boy. 584,447...
August 21 at 3:09am · Like
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JA Escalante still, I bet we beat anything Christendom College has ever done here
August 21 at 3:10am · Like · 5
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JA Escalante
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Jody Haaf Garneau I still think our word count is higher
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley set out to do 1000. I think that is a noble goal.
August 21 at 3:14am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or, at least a goal.
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Matthew J. Peterson https://m.facebook.com/GoesOnForever
The Neverending Thread
This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
Community: 57 like this
August 21 at 3:29am · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund What!? JA Escalante, you left TAC after TWO YEARS? No wonder you think the ratio studiorum doesn't make sense; the sense doesn't begin to become clear till JUNIOR YEAR. Dude, GO BACK AND FINISH THE PROGRAM AT ONCE.
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Pater Edmund I'm serious. This explains all the things that have puzzled me about your FB comments. Eg. I now understand your bizarre take on Klein on Descartes: OH! YOU NEVER DID JUNIOR MATH!
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Pater Edmund Why is there no "dislike" button on FB? I need to dislike this comment: https://www.facebook.com/matth.../posts/10152587096221508...
Only because it reveals that Escalante MISSED OUT. My dear sir, go back, go back, go back.
August 21 at 4:32am · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom I left TAC after four and a half years! I'm ultra qualified!
August 21 at 4:44am · Like · 4
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Marie Pitt-Payne By the way, JA Escalante - there were horses at TAC when I was there ('93 grad) so the advertising material was not misleading.
There is a lot I could say on the topic of the TAC program... Now, and on this thread, is probably not the time.
I'll just make one parting comment: all these anecdotes about the program of study from one who supposedly attempted it several times and never finished, another who attempted it for two years and quit and another who has never even met a graduate of the program leave me grateful that I learned the limits of personal experiences while studying at TAC.
August 21 at 6:00am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Pater Edmund I think more TACers DO study philosophy than theology post grad, but this may say more about the state of theology grad schools over the past 40 years.
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Joel HF Also, given how befuddled Stedman et al. were, it is hard to think that one could get the true purpose across in an ad in the National Review. Can you blame the school for, how shall I say ... emphasizing the easier to understand aspects of the curriculum there? After all, plenty of people come year after year expecting little math and lots of literature. The school could hardly be more explicit about exactly what is studied.
August 21 at 7:01am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Fair enough.
August 21 at 8:13am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joel, I wonder if comparing what graduates study after TAC is a fair assessment of the curriculum, or rather it speaks to the type of person who will suffer through 4 years of TAC.....
August 21 at 8:26am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger both. Some are predisposed. Others redirected. What else are they good for? (The modern world is unkindly disposed toward a more genuine liberal arts grad. Its a real problem. The traditional jobs are closed off. SJC has other probs but TAC would fit in a more sane world.)
August 21 at 8:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne I remember speaking to Dr. Neumayr once when I was in the thick of bearing 6 children and before I went to graduate school to study Theology.
He told me I was using my education exactly as it was meant to be used: living my life and being a good Mom.
Studying Theology doesn't say a lot about anything.
How many graduates are striving for holiness? Teaching the faith to their own children? Volunteering at their parish? Another question entirely....
August 21 at 8:37am · Like · 9
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John Ruplinger hextuplets!
August 21 at 8:42am · Like
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John Ruplinger I do have a response to Marie, but it's better not to say it (it could provoke another good 300 comments) . Suffice it to say her complaint I think is legitimate in my judgement.
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Pater Edmund You read her point as a complaint?
August 21 at 9:05am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Michael Beitia (or is it spelled Bethea? ;-)), I think that's true too. And I'd wager there are more TAC alumns w/ STEM post-grad degrees than literature. Could be wrong about that though.
August 21 at 9:20am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Who is Ellit? I don't think I had to read him
August 21 at 9:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia What's wrong with reading Eliot? or Freud?
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Joel HF I just checked, they read Elliot at Christendom too. Is there no college left that will magisterially magisterium the fullness of magisterium?
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Michael Beitia Magisterium your magisterial mouth Joel!
August 21 at 9:33am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Tinbergen.
August 21 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Christendom Phil327..... studies Freud. How cavalier!
August 21 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "holistic sacred theology"? Is that like healing crystals?
August 21 at 9:40am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Pater, I actually picked up a copy of "Curious Naturalists" by Tinbergen at a library book sales a few years back. Really interesting.
August 21 at 9:42am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund «The philosophical disciplines are to be taught in such a way that the students are first of all led to acquire a solid and coherent knowledge of man, the world, and of God, relying on a philosophical patrimony which is perennially valid and taking into account the philosophical investigations of later ages. This is especially true of those investigations which exercise a greater influence in their own nations. Account should also be taken of the more recent progress of the sciences. The net result should be that the students, correctly understanding the characteristics of the contemporary mind, will be duly prepared for dialogue with men of their time.» (Vatican II, Optatam Totius)
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Michael Beitia waaaaaay too magisterial.
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Lauren Ogrodnick some of the tutors at TAC are literature Grads. . .
August 21 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund https://archive.org/details/LearningAndDiscipleship
Learning And Discipleship : Marcus Berquist : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
A lecture at Thomas Aquinas College
August 21 at 10:35am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia so mocking Elliot with pulp movie garbage is sacred holistic crystal healing theology?
August 21 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so you're subscribing to the idea that in order to teach something you need to be specifically trained in that subject, right?
August 21 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund « But where there is no wanting, there is a word.
Which word wants not I want.
Want which word wants not.
The words of this word, my prophecy.
A scroll unfolding and rolling up, revealing
The beast in the word as the word, and the word
Made and the word made man. Yet
In the world by word made the word.
Honey to tasting, bitter to belly.
How shall I speak the end? The end is the word. »
August 21 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund « Much I want to say, unsaid,
Unsayable, much I must say,
If say anything, but you tire.
I should speak in tongues, which,
Not knowing, you’d more understand
That you misunderstand me. »
August 21 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^I have no idea what you're typing about^
Does anyone know a literature PhD (preferably English literature, preferably 20th century) to explain this to me?
August 21 at 10:53am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Related probably to nothing, I have always been struck by Augustine's interpretation of taking the gold from Egypt: All good, true, and beautiful things belong to Christianity. Somethings, to be sure, more evidently than others, but my oh my, what a poor world it would be if theologians did not read Eliot.
August 21 at 11:05am · Unlike · 6
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Jason Van Boom I was at TAC WHEN THERE WERE HORSES.
When there was only one permanent building!
I was there in its hard, gritty days. The frontier days.
All these young whippersnappers have only known the luxury of permanent shelters.... Could they quickly saddle up and ride when a lookout cries, "WASC is coming! WASC is coming!"
JA Escalante
August 21 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 6
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Jason Van Boom Finally, I agree with Peregrine on something!
August 21 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia per accidens or per se?
August 21 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom Per accidens. I'm an infidel.
August 21 at 11:20am · Like · 5
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Jason Van Boom ^^ 2nd time I've agreed with him.
August 21 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I enjoy the poetry of Elliot, but I don't agree with Peregott on principle
August 21 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Jason Van Boom 'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves
Did gyre and gimble in the seminar.
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths cried "Qua!!"
August 21 at 11:22am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger pretty sure i was i was excommunicated by pope peregrine. It was invalid though and he didnt usf the book ,bell and candle even. Why me?
August 21 at 11:54am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia You're not missing much. He's just quoting Elliot right now
August 21 at 11:58am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund John Ruplinger, you suggested above that it is dangerous for one's soul to study theology unless one has taken the Evangelical Councils. I would like to see some discussion of this. What do people think? Is it OK for lay-people and diocesan priests to study theology? Or should it be the exclusive preserve of vowed religious as JR suggests? Surely everyone has to know SOME theology, but I guess that JR meant that only religious should study it scientifically. John Ruplinger: do you think that liberal arts colleges whose students are lay people ought to have no theology classes. What exactly is the claim here?
August 21 at 1:07pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia that's quite the dig at TAC tutors: "unemployable Renaissance man masquerading as a Victorian man of leisure (without inheritance)"
perhaps some might say that educating is a higher calling. But someone whose main thrust is "magisterium magisterium magisterium" wouldn't understand that.
August 21 at 1:22pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia to restate: say what you will about the merits or drawbacks of the curriculum, style, culture etc. of TAC, but to personally attack the people working there seems a new low
August 21 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, not new
August 21 at 1:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I should revise that. I agree with the old school that theology ought to be limited for lay folks. I haven't studied the matter. I only see the effects. I certainly wouldn't limit Diocesan priests. They, however, are under a stricter obedience and generally have the faculty of preaching from the bishop. So its not so much Evangelical Councils. I see big problems with the proliferation of lay theologians (lots of mini-popes we have these days.
August 21 at 1:29pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Like Peregrott Weinavenburg?
August 21 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger TAC introduces theology. We don't want to enter into a 2000 comment thread with a bunch of amateur know it all theologians like me. Suffice to say I used to like Newman a bunch. I still love his little essay on Elementary Education: it's brilliant and thought provoking. However, I regard his development (written while Anglican) as condemned and very very dangerous (by the Syllubus of St. Pius IX). Watch out for fireworks now.
August 21 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger LIS I was ANATHEMITIZED (pretty sure) by pope Peregrinne (amateur lay theologian). SO what does Peregrine think of the distinction of remote vs. proximate Magesterium. What is the Magisterium? THAT might clear up a lot of the troll beatings going on here.
August 21 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you cannot get him to define it. It has been tried. Any question on that front provokes the "see TAC doesn't teach sacred theology" again.
and again
and again
August 21 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Has he read Pastor Aeternus?
August 21 at 1:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beats me
August 21 at 1:35pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I would argue that Dei Verbum in fact endorses Bl. John Henry Newman's theology of development (which is what lead him out of Anglicanism). What part do you think is irreconcilable with the Syllabus?
August 21 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger It's his understanding of development
August 21 at 1:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It's wrong
August 21 at 1:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger it's condemned by the Syllabus almost verbatim at points.
August 21 at 1:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Doctrines are not "developed" like Newman says
August 21 at 1:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Rather they are the same in the beginning as now, some literally the same; others indistinctly as you Pater Edmund) note in your essay linked elsewhere.
August 21 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The problem with Newman's development:
August 21 at 1:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Is that it opens the door to changing doctrines which is impossible.
August 21 at 1:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ((((shhhhh....... Dei Verbum has some probs...... but I haven't read it in a long while))))))) I remember when I taught Scripture the first time, I went digging in Dei Verbum and others more recent. I was very disappointed because I was clueless as to WHAT the Church teaches.
August 21 at 1:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I wish I had read more closely Providentissimus Deus because it's very very clear there and so helpful.
August 21 at 1:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It's not so much like seeds, Pater Edmund, as it is like an already sapling tree that grows new branches with time. The problem with development (as modernly understand) is that it is an easy tool for the full blown modernists to use to overturn unchangeable doctrine: they do it and they have done it.
August 21 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I thought Newman's development was not that something that was doctrine could no longer be doctrine but rather along the lines of the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (and the development of understanding and clarity within different doctrines)
August 21 at 1:45pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger But did the Immaculate Conception ever "develop" or was it always there but merely debated??? that is the question (edit: the only development would be with our better understanding of conception and more certitude as to when the soul comes into existence)
August 21 at 1:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Clarity, yes. Development, no. Read the Syllabus of Errors. Some of what passes as standard fare is condemned in it (and rightly because it leads to CHANGE of doctrine which is impossible because Truth cannot change over time)
August 21 at 1:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The history of theology is nothing but development on our end - but - even worse! - it is development ever born of heresy, and reaction to heresy before it is even determined to be such, and after - heresy which is new every morning and thus timeless! And this development is born of crisis, amidst brutal and emotional politics, and intertwined with so much other than the pursuit of truth in the abstract: much like, for instance, this very thread.
And yet our view of the Truth does change over time: and this is a traditional thing to say, because it is manifestly true, and does not entail that what truly is changes with our whims.
August 21 at 1:54pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger That's Newman's take which everyone now says.
August 21 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't agree.
August 21 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But I am only an amateur.
August 21 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In my opinion there are NO real theologians anymore not one. (or very very few). THIS on the authority of that tiara I gots on my head right now. So there.
August 21 at 1:56pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Development, clarity -- they can mean the same. Refining things that have always been seminally there.
August 21 at 1:56pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think over *most* of the first 1000 years most would actually have agreed with Newman, although they might have put it differently - and this difference in language might signify more - and put you more at ease. But have to run.
Pull back up at the bar here on my way home.
August 21 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger no seminales. There's a difference between indistinct and something that can morph. (this is to Jody Haaf.)
August 21 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And answering very real questions that were never asked until circumstances changed, etc.
August 21 at 1:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No that is the question Matthew, and I am just not well enough read. Let's just say that Newman's theory was on the chop block in his day. There were propositions almost verbatim in the Syllabus. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, even assuming some bit of development that is legitimate, it has now morphed into something different: a real change of doctrine.
August 21 at 2:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Wherefore, Pius X brought in the hammer of all hammer's of the synthesis of all heresies, PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS. Yeah, I'll take some of that please.
August 21 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau That isn't how I read Newman. But that would be a whole other thread to do a reading!
August 21 at 2:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No, Jody. I used to not either........ It may be that my pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.
August 21 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But when you figure out who and what the modernists are, that'll happen to you.
August 21 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger (modernists as defined in Pascendi of course: theological modernists)_
August 21 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I guess someone could misapply Newman's principles but that doesn't make him in error on this. Apparently that has happened.
August 21 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO. no no. Propositions in that work are explicitly and almost (with the same words) condemned by Syllabus of Errors. Remember he wrote that as still an Anglican.
August 21 at 2:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger He was not made to recant but his book was on the chopping block and moreover it was REFUTED by someone here in the States whose name I forget (and I haven't read).
August 21 at 2:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia less like a sapling, John, and more like the blooming of a flower.
August 21 at 2:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's get all poetical and sh*t
August 21 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I suppose I'll take back my analogy (but I didn't start it).
August 21 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, I am a little befuddled by the supposed condemnation of Newman. Joshua Kenz would know better than I. That being said, Newman would hold that The Immaculate Conception was in some way believed by all for all time. Certainly the Church clarified her teaching on the matter and that is why it was so defined.
John, I think you are right that the notion of development has gotten out of hand, but that is hardly reason to reject it as true. It may be reason to stop teaching it so much, however. (Here I am reminded of Cardinal Pell's remarks about the primacy of conscience. With regard to this he said that was certainly true, but people clearly can't handle it, so let's stop talking about it. A good pastoral move, if you ask me.)
I am of the same mind with regard to lay theologians. I think they have an important place in the Church, and I think many of them have made positive contributions to the Church. I think Pope Francis is right to combat clericalism. The gifts of the Spirit are not determined by whether or not one belongs to an order.
That being said, lay theologian can and should be subject to the Bishop insofar as they teach theology. Indeed, insofar as they teach theology they are sharing in the bishop's pastoral duty.
August 21 at 2:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman For the general edification of the masses:
https://docs.google.com/.../0BxhNFgNx8xzUOWZmYzBkNTg.../edit
Waldstein- on the Religious sense.mp3 - Google Drive
docs.google.com
August 21 at 2:14pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia can somebody please change their profile pic? All these Arabic "n"s are getting confusing.
August 21 at 2:14pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Clearly you hate persecuted Christians.
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Michael Beitia no, just lay theologians
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Daniel Lendman Sorry Michael, I got carried away having read too much trollese.
August 21 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ouch
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Matthew J. Peterson A very basic knowledge is all that is needed: the cartoon of static stasis is absurd.
What serious aspect of the Faith since Christ ascended wasn't hammered out by human beings confronting heresy that wasn't even understood as heresy yet?
Where has there NOT been development?
This fear of development reveals an failure to comprehend theology itself.
From St. Peter grappling with *whether non-Jews could even become Christians at all* on out to the right understanding of the Trinity.
We all need to take some meat with our milk.
August 21 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger oooooooooouuuuch.
August 21 at 2:18pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau John -- can you support your claim that ODCD was condemned? Does this mean I have to go read ODCD and PDG side-by-side and it will be self evident? Nothing more than that?
August 21 at 2:20pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger you got me Matthew. But would you say that the apostles didn't understand that Christ was the same substance as the Father until LATER WAS invented the word homoousios? [what I meant to say, Matthew]
August 21 at 2:21pm · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Knowing, understanding, and naming are all different steps.
August 21 at 2:21pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Well - I don't know - they didn't need to. Others later on did.
August 21 at 2:22pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Jody, READ the Syllabus. Save it. It's short. Just ask yourself whether you believe these things condemned or not. I have it on very very good authority that his book was suspect of heresy. If you really want I can look it up, but my time on the internet is very short. I know one author who does a most excellent job, but some might not be able to handle the MEAT that he feeds
August 21 at 2:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger fixed it Matthew.
August 21 at 2:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Haha. I'm not trying to slam you or anyone else. I just get grumpy. There is an easy ideology of static stasis in some Christian circles that needs to be thoroughly disinfected.
The Syllabus of Errors and some grumpy Popes are not answer books for all time to be used as two dimensional standards of ideas - the syllabus is composed of general condemnations culled out of context from prior and complicated events and writings, as Newman points out.
But really, as even a cursory history of doctrine makes clear, councils don't meet and decide what people should believe in the midst of flowering fields: they are called to respond to need, and the messy demands of fragile human beings in very flawed communities trying to figure out what the hell to do and think about what's good and true.
August 21 at 2:26pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I AM NOT STATIC NO NO NO NO
August 21 at 2:27pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I have jettisoned more opinions than many minions of TAC hold in a lifetime.
August 21 at 2:27pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick I take the minion thing as a compliment... They're cute
August 21 at 2:28pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia never seen it #tooold
August 21 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger SCREW THAT. Grumpy popes man. Now i
August 21 at 2:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger am taking off the gloves.
August 21 at 2:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Look - I think key here is why one even needs a Holy Spirit guarantee for the Church, as Prot's need for the individual. It ain't because this all works out purty-like: otherwise, what's the need.
August 21 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Time for good old fashioned bronze knuckles a la Homeric boxing rules.
August 21 at 2:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Menin aeide thea Ruplingeri
August 21 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But the Holy Spirit does not guarantee
August 21 at 2:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Which hurled the souls of strong lay theologians into the house of Hades?
August 21 at 2:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger EVERY
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John Ruplinger council............................most were FALSE.
August 21 at 2:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I like grumpy Popes too. But not sure how effective they are or have been though. Internal reform is more a matter of doing and restructuring than it is of yelling about error interlectually speaking from on high. That didn't stop the Reformation nor the Enlightenment.
August 21 at 2:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger THAT IS THE PROBLEM MATTHEW. because they denounce error, they appear to us as grumpy
August 21 at 2:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia right, Matthew, let's just go with I'm okay, you're okay
August 21 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger FALSE PERSPECTIVE
August 21 at 2:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger PLEASE, Matthew, you of all people should be recommending Pope Barney the purple dinosaur.
August 21 at 2:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson To clarify, I use "Holy Spirit guarantee" a bit tongue in cheek. What that actually means doctrinally is a complicated business.
August 21 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pope Pius X was a lamb, a lamb I tell you. Pascendi is what happens when you tear his sheep to pieces. The lamb has teeth and a roar then. That's real "pastoral" for you viz. Pascere in Latin, like the first word of his document. The intro. to that document is great and MANLY
August 21 at 2:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger none of the new fad limp wristed crap.
August 21 at 2:35pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not recommending "I'm OK, you're OK", fwiw
What did the Syllabus accomplish other than making present day trads feel good whenever they trot it out?
August 21 at 2:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger silly. That document helped lead me from confusion to understand what tradition is.
August 21 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I wasn't born in a cave. I only choose to live there now
August 21 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, do you see the need for many of the modern encyclicals?
August 21 at 2:38pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think it helped lead to the VII myself, and the very parts that the defenders of the Syllabus hate most of all.
August 21 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Just call me Supertroll if you will................
August 21 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Michael, if I need to start a fire. Is that what you mean.
August 21 at 2:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger (putting my tiara back on) You have it all backwards Matthew. nononono. I just don't know what I can say to help you see things otherwise. I don't know whether we can come to an agreement on things. And perhaps, talking about it from this angle is unhelpful.....since we're debating from conclusions and not premises.
August 21 at 2:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia uhm, there were no "rad trads" during Pius IX's pontificate.
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John Ruplinger Michael, I have read almost every VII and many of Paul VI documents and JPII. Especially the former I've combed through many in Latin. WE HAVE AT THE LEAST very very serious problems with writing precisely....but I'm afraid more than that too. As von Hildebrand pointed out (in a letter to Michael Davies long after he wrote Trojan Horse), we do not have to accept most of these documents (they do not have the kind of authority folks thing they do ---- that's the pastoral provision, esp. in the nota previa). Anywho, hope I don't "scandalize" too many. But we've got really really serious problems that aren't just because trads are crunchy.
August 21 at 2:46pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger right because trad = catholics
August 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what's the heresy being fought in Lumen Fidei?
August 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It's just that many many non-trads are not catholic.
August 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^you're one of them^?
August 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Lumen Fidei?????
August 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what doctrine is being defined, or heresy fought?
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger that's stupid Michael.
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is it?
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it's just a question
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ??
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so I guess you're saying "none"
August 21 at 2:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What is Lumen Fidei? What is your question?
August 21 at 2:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, it is an encyclical. What is the point of it?
August 21 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Oh, I didn't read that. I haven't read new Encycs in a few years.
August 21 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (wink wink- nudge nudge) don't assume we're all always arguing
August 21 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Maybe I should ask everyone:
WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE ENCYCLICAL, LUMEN FIDEI?
August 21 at 2:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger indeed.............what is the point? that is often the question. Do we have more or less clarity. It's like an "undevelopment" of the faith. i just want a brick wall I can beat my head against sometimes when I look at the confused world. Does anyone read Jacob Klein's "ON PRECISION" anymore. Great piece: explains everything you need to know about so much that is written.
August 21 at 2:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I suppose "love is the core of faith" is probably important to focus on, St. Paul didn't say too much about it. (this is sarcasm) (edited to make sarcasm more clear)
August 21 at 2:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger .............. I wonder why
August 21 at 2:58pm · Like
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Nina Rachele ^...sorry, what?
August 21 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele maybe I can't distinguish sarcasm from reality anymore.
August 21 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele in other news, I just popped open Newman to give you guys his five definitions for "development" and then you moved on so I am a little disappointed.
August 21 at 3:01pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger life IS disappointment
August 21 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele thanks for the update, Buddha.
August 21 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I was just kidding. I think that's from Princess Bride, I haven't read Buddha.
August 21 at 3:04pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ... I was just ribbing you, sir, haha.
August 21 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia 1052
August 21 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger On Faith. Here's a pretty good explanation. I DON"T know why everything needs to be brought up date, unless that just means brought up to our current state of absolute frickin unbelievable state of confusion. http://www.cin.org/.../ebooks/master/trent/tcreed00.htm
THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Creed -- Introduction
www.cin.org
The Catechism of Trent
August 21 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Can I wax nostalgic for 1 page encyclicals?
August 21 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or is that too "grumpy pope"?
August 21 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Just started reading the Catechism of Trent a few months ago AND if that isn't precisely like the remedy for our age, I don't know what is. very precise (and hard hitting) and YES MICHAEL WHY ARE THEY ALL SO DAMN RAMBLING LONG!!!
August 21 at 3:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Wasn't rambling the criticism by Garagou Lagrange of a certain dissertaion of a certain.......
August 21 at 3:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm
UNAM SANCTAM
www.papalencyclicals.net
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims:…
August 21 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Nina: POST THEM.
This is the thread that *never* ends - so we don't "move on" or "move back" here.
Put aside your time bound anxieties here on the thread that never ends, Nina Rachele
Post.
Post and be free.
August 21 at 3:12pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Nina Rachele There are 5 senses of "development of ideas" which Newman thinks can be used in Christian Doctrine: political, logical, historical, moral, and metaphysical
August 21 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ...............theological ???
August 21 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele who is Nina Gapinski? and will they feel uncomfortable being tagged in this post?
August 21 at 3:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson: we move in a circle
August 21 at 3:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the eternal return of the same, a wise fellow remarked 900 comments ago
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Matthew J. Peterson Sorry Nina Rachele - tagged wrong person.
August 21 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I love GRUMPY OLD POPES. DEAR GOD, PLEASE GRANT US AGAIN YOUR GRUMPY OLD POPES. UNAM SANCTAM is short and sweet
August 21 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele "[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9
August 21 at 3:14pm · Like
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Nina Rachele No worries, Mr. Peterson, I just thought she might be a little surprised to be tagged...
August 21 at 3:15pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I really miss the stakeburnings too.
August 21 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I have a big "huh?" next to most of the ethical development passage... "Ethical developments are not properly matter for argument and controversy, but are natural and personal, substituting what is congruous, pious, appropriate, generous, for strictly logical inference." pg 47 ch 1 section 6. The main example he gives later is "The Holy Eucharist" which I think refers generally to the development whereby He was reserved in the Tabernacle, and then the later development of Eucharistic adoration.
August 21 at 3:22pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Don't need to quote historical developments, it just means finding the right dates of things that happened in Scripture.
August 21 at 3:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Here is Newman, post Syllabus Errorum, trying to undermine said syllabus: http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f057_Newman_2.htm
Newman and the Pope - Part II by James Larson
www.traditioninaction.org
John Henry Newman undermines the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX
August 21 at 3:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger He led a campaign to undermine it because he KNEW that he held (at least at one time) many of the things condemned.
August 21 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Logical developments also don't really have one place for their definition, just that "the intellectual process is detached from the practical, and posterior to it." From his examples, I think he's mostly referring to when certain practices or ideas are held just as empty words in one generation, then in the next the actual spirit of the words gets taken up as a real thing. A good example might be the civil rights movement insisting on actual equality a hundred years after it was granted to them in principle.
August 21 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Nina Rachele, huh is right. A careful examination of his epistemology leads to real problems. (I haven't read his Grammar of Assent.) I trust Laron's account of it here. He's fundamentally nominalist it seems to me, which is very problematic for ALL dogmas of the faith.
August 21 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partvi
Part VI: Does God Love Us: An Examination of the Epistemology of John Henry Newman | The War...
www.waragainstbeing.com
"Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration." (James 1: 17)
August 21 at 3:30pm · Like
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Nina Rachele By political development he is talking about the development of church government from, say, Peter-->bishops to pope-->bishops+curia, various other church governing bodies.
August 21 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ::drops mike::
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John Ruplinger No, Nina, his epistemology is modernist (as condemned in Pascendi). He is adulated today because he espoused immanentism, which necessarily leads to the devaluation (if not destruction) of dogma and contributes to their changeability.
August 21 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Mr. Ruplinger, just for clarification, my "huh?" next to the ethical development passage was because he was quoting a verbose bishop as some kind of example and it flew right over my head.
August 21 at 3:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yeah, Nina, it's been a loong while since I read him. LIS he is the protoevangelist for the modernist. full. stop. end sentence. period. It's why everyone is all Newman said this, Newman said that. ......... yeah, he says some good stuff, but upon close inspection..... TO YOUR ETHICS, however, this appears consonant with Newman's epistemology. He holds almost a double truth. But LIS, I haven't read him in awhile.
August 21 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Now this is actually going somewhere!
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John Ruplinger I'm out for a while.
August 21 at 3:38pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Lauren Ogrodnick: this isn't "going anywhere."
This thread just is.
To be sure, we are in time in relation to it. So we may go somewhere based on our interaction with it. But it itself is outside of time, in time only by operation.
August 21 at 3:40pm · Unlike · 7
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Nina Rachele now that I have provided you all with this information, may I suggest you take his definition of metaphysical development as the primary definition of development and discuss further from there. So, if I were actually asking the opening question at this point, I would open to that quote and ask "Is this wrong? Is it consonant with Church teaching?" Just so you know, the main example he gives of metaphysical development is the Athanasian Creed--can we characterize the Creed in that way?
Um, I need to go study for my paralegal class now, so catch you folks on the flip side...
August 21 at 3:41pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Okay Proclus ...
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Joel HF What is immanentism?
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John Ruplinger jhf read pascendi. I will summarize ltr.
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Daniel Lendman Nina, I don't know you, but I like you already.
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Megan Baird Random sidebar: Still not sure why Peregrine insists on mispelling Beitia's name....
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Jody Haaf Garneau One of life's finer mysteries Megan
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Jody Haaf Garneau It probably goes back to comment 127
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Megan Baird Please summarize comment 127...
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm kidding. I don't know when it started --but I believe the wrong name usage predated this particular thread
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John Ruplinger Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.
August 21 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joel HF, immanence signifies the divine presence in all people or all people. It is pantheistic, often signified contemporarily as "divine experience" found in all religions. It often accompanies the belief in universal salvation. De Chardin comes to mind.
August 21 at 7:53pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Twenty year olds are for the most part intellectual babies and should be coddled and spoon fed. One of my architecture professors once told us that architecture was "an old man's game" and I think the same is basically true of theology (and philosophy).
Unless you are thinking of re-introducing old medieval-style disputations, which I admit do sound exciting.
Mr. Ruplinger, I really want to try and understand what you are saying but it might take me some time to get through what you've posted.
August 21 at 8:46pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Wow...I return to this thread to find it exploded....somewhere I was tagged, but FB is too stupid to take me directly to that comment....so I had to dig a bit to find it, only to find that much has expired since. And I am afraid by the time I catch up and think on it, I will be in the dust again. But if I can make a general observation on Newman....Mr. Ruplinger points to Newman's epistemology. That is the heart of the issue.
I loved Newman when I first read him, his Apologia pro vita sua namely. I was turned off when I read the Grammar of Assent. For those familiar with the analytic tradition of philosophy, you will recognize that in Newman, even though he actually predated it. Many of the same principles held by Frege and other analytics prevail in Newman. It is not as favorable to logic though in the direction he takes it. People have use "personalism" but a better description might be a methodological nominalism...actually, scratch that. He was straight up nominalist. Universals, in his mind, were just vague generlities, that need not even apply in the concrete.
Take "man is rational" For Newman that might be a justified generalization, but he will say that doesn't mean all men are rational
But let us here his own words:
"Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it." (Grammar of Assent, chap. 8 §1 par. 2)
We can only, then, really know individuals. Only "facts in the concrete"
If you want to read for yourself more: http://www.newmanreader.org/works/grammar/chapter8-1.html
Newman Reader - Grammar of Assent - Chapter 8
www.newmanreader.org
{259} I is the conditional acceptance of a proposition, Assent is the unconditional; the object of Assent is a truth, the object of Inference is the truth-like or a verisimilitude. The problem which I have undertaken is that of ascertaining how it comes to pass that a conditional act leads to an unc…
August 21 at 9:19pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Now, how does is epistemology affect his theory on the development of doctrine? That shouldn't be too hard to see that it must, in some measure...the very concerns in both works being along the same lines...but it might be a dissertation to analyse it fully.
August 21 at 9:23pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Christopher Wolfe do you have thoughts re analytics and Newman above?
August 21 at 9:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Do note, lastly, that Newman was quite idiotic in his naive rejections of much of scholastic principles. If you read the link I gave, you will tell readily that his rejection of universals rests on the sort of prima facie reading that a teenager might give to "man is rational." Namely that he may be irrational. But that is to misunderstand what is claimed, rather badly at that.
But he didn't have TAC to hook him on Aristotle and Aquinas... he was in the tradition of Bacon and Locke instead
August 21 at 9:26pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Joshua Kenz: what is the alternative document, author, view, etc,, as you see it, to Newman when it comes to explain the historical fact of the widely developing doctrine of the Church over time - from the early Church determining whether or not it should admit non-Jews to the finer points of the Trinity, etc.
August 21 at 9:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson, isn't it self evident that the truth unfolds over time?
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JA Escalante thank you Joshua
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Sean Robertson I've been following this thread since the beginning (and, for what it's worth, am one of the ugly mugs from the original article way up there, who apparently spent last year in "idle speculation"). I fear this discussion of Newman is not a genuine development from what was contained seminally at the beginning of this thread; that is to say, we seem to be dangerously close to a polite, consistent, and sane intellectual discussion. It seems to me that the early Thread Fathers might not approve.
August 21 at 9:38pm · Like · 9
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Michael Beitia I certainly don't....
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Matthew J. Peterson On the contrary Sean Robertson: the early thread fathers all agreed about everything and had everything figured out.
In fact, they began the submagisterium of this thread, which is a static block of truth that needs to be used to hit everyone here over the head, repeatedly, until they see things the way I see the early thread fathers.
August 21 at 9:51pm · Unlike · 6
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JA Escalante ^ Modernist
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JA Escalante you're gonna "develop" yourself right into a doctrine of Divine Quaternity or some mess
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Peterson, not a clue. I am not sure if Newman was the first (always a dangerous claim!) but he is certainly the most prominent person to put forward a theory of "development." I mean, obviously earlier scholastics recognized some sort of development. Such is implicit in the debates about what can constitute dogma. e.g. if the minor premise is de fide, but the major is from reason, is the conclusion capable of being de fide? Do both premises have to be? Just major? Without getting into an argument about the roles of syllogisms in dogma, such arguments presume the possibility of discursive reason discovering truth that are de fide, from one or more premises already known de fide. And as such a growth in understand and knowledge. We can say more particular truths are contained in more universal truths, and if you want Newman's terminology, the more universal ideas would become seminal ideas.
Now this is just off the cuff, so take it with a grain of salt. But does it not seem that Newman's rejection of syllogistic reasoning (except as giving mere probability), universals (let alone truths more universal containing particulars), etc. make the question of development something that required a book to try and defend and try and avoid something like evolution of dogma? If you hold the ability to have universals and reason with certitude from them to other propositions, doesn't the problem largely disappear? While admitting that the historical process was messy, and not necessarily accomplished without a bunch of groping and feeling.
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JA Escalante Joshua, the first developmentalist in the Newman sense was probably Petavius, who was countered by the Protestant Bishop Bull (who was congratulated by Bossuet, as I recall, for his efforts)
August 21 at 9:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia JAson, Peterson is a heretic. His animist writings on the "spirit of the bear" have been roundly condemned
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JA Escalante I discerned his wickedness the day I met him
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Michael Beitia I have to ask, though, as a protestant, do you see doctrine developing a la Newman?
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JA Escalante absolutely not
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Michael Beitia is the reform of the reform (in your mind) something nascent in Christianity?
August 21 at 10:05pm · Like
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JA Escalante but that is not really a conversation for this thread. Let's stick to Peterson's wickedness
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Michael Beitia fair enough. I'll message you some other time.....
August 21 at 10:05pm · Like
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JA Escalante if I were Catholic I would regard Newman's epistemology and developmentalism as a trojan horse; I'll say that much, Message me privately
August 21 at 10:06pm · Like · 3
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Christopher Wolfe Well Matthew J. Peterson, I'm in the same boat as Joshua since I haven't been following this massive number of comments, but I'll throw in my 2 bits. Joshua's quote from Newman which he described as "nominalist" might be nominalist but then again not. The way I would describe that Newman quote is: "set-theory," and yes, it is quite similar to what analytics such as Gottlob Frege say because predicate logic involves "sets," not universals. However philosopher who accepts set theory and predicate logic needn't be a "set theory nominalist," and can be very close to holding an Aristotelian theory of universals depending on what he says about necessity and possibility- Peter Geach and GE Anscombe are the best examples of that sort of thing. Anscombe wrote and accepted ALOT of what Aristotle claims, but never herself accepted his theory of the forms in his writings as far as I can tell. That's why she doesn't necessarily think of the soul as the form of the body, and wrote essays like "Immortality of the Soul" arguing that when we die we could be resurrected without anything like Aristotle's potential intellect surviving. It was Anscombe's backup plan just in case the nominalists were correct about universals.
August 21 at 10:28pm · Like · 3
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Christopher Wolfe P.S.- A majority of orthodox Catholic theologians during the middle ages WERE nominalists, historical fact (eg, see John Marenbon's book).
August 21 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Christopher Wolfe As for Newman, I read in a biography about him that after becoming Catholic he went to Rome seeking the Thomists out to learn from them, but the Thomism he found literally was a shambles of a school at the time (that was before Aeterni Patris, of course). So I think Newman really was coming out of a different education than we Thomists are used to, and was trying to figure things out without the intellectual resources we can now rely on
August 21 at 10:35pm · Like · 3
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Christopher Wolfe I'm glad to hear it, that was always my assumption until reading that quote just now. Joshua (if you're out there in cyberspace), is there any more proof that you could present to justify your claim that Newman rejected universals?
August 21 at 10:50pm · Like
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JA Escalante That quote from Newman basically describes what goes on at TAC. So what again were all these ten jillion comments about?
August 21 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante That's just a sort of substitution of prudence and imagination for reason, and hunches/gestalt impressions for clear ideas. That doesn't make him much of anything except a Romantic
August 21 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante hahaha unargued assertions. we have come to this
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JA Escalante except that reason for him isnt "scientific". But it is for Aquinas.
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JA Escalante apparently they ignore distinctions at Christendom
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Matthew J. Peterson I agree that Newman is not so simple, Peregrine Bonaventure, but the thread that never ends will allow us to continue that in a bit.
We all need to look at what JA Escalante just said as regards the Newman quote you quoted approvingly above: tell us a bit more about how and why you think it doesn't describe TAC, because it sure seems like it is Newman defending TAC against you and your objections...
August 21 at 11:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson But this too quick dismissal of Newman also needs to be discussed.
Thank God this thread is outside of time.
August 21 at 11:25pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson At some point you need to explain to us why your Newman quote doesn't contradict what you've said all thread, because it seems it does.
August 21 at 11:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Petavius, as in the moon crater? Okay, I heard the name, never read him. I knew he did a lot of working with the history of theology...makes sense he would have something like a development theory.
I refrained from calling Newman a modernist, or his theory unorthodox. But I will not refrain from calling Newman, as his views are in the Grammar of Assent, as so obviously nominalist that it boggles the mind how anyone can miss that. Or how he mocks the very form of reasoning used by Aristotle and Aquinas
Quoting from the same place
"we wish to ascertain, will be found to reduce the force of the inferential method from demonstration to the mere determination of the probable. Thus, whereas (as I have already said) Inference starts with conditions, as starting with premisses, here are two reasons why, when employed upon questions of fact, it can only conclude probabilities: first, because its premisses are assumed, not proved; and secondly, because its conclusions {269} are abstract, and not concrete."
"And in like manner as regards John and Richard, when compared with one another; each is himself, and nothing else, and, though, regarded abstractedly, the two may fairly be said to have something in common, (viz., that abstract sameness which does not exist at all,) yet strictly speaking, they have nothing in common, for each of them has a vested interest in all that he himself is"
"Let units come first, and (so-called) universals second; let universals minister to units, not units be sacrificed to universals. John, Richard, and Robert are individual things, independent, incommunicable. We may find some kind of common measure between them, and we may give it the name of man, man as such, the typical {280} man, the auto-anthropos. We are justified in so doing, and in investing it with general attributes, and bestowing on it what we consider a definition. But we think we may go on to impose our definition on the whole race, and to every member of it, to the thousand Johns, Richards, and Roberts who are found in it. No; each of them is what he is, in spite of it. Not any one of them is man, as such, or coincides with the auto-anthropos. Another John is not necessarily rational, because "all men are rational," for he may be an idiot;—nor because "man is a being of progress," does the second Richard progress, for he may be a dunce;—nor, because "man is made for society," must we therefore go on to deny that the second Robert is a gipsy or a bandit, as he is found to be. There is no such thing as stereotyped humanity; it must ever be a vague, bodiless idea, because the concrete units from which it is formed are independent realities. General laws are not inviolable truths; much less are they necessary causes. Since, as a rule, men are rational, progressive, and social, there is a high probability of this rule being true in the case of a particular person; but we must know him to be sure of it."
Newman is clear that he is rejecting the very Organon of Aristotle, as far as "truth in the concrete" goes. It only touches the abstract, and he is very dismissive of that. He even calls the universal the "tyrant of the majority" using Elias as a counterexample to "all men are mortal."
August 21 at 11:39pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Petavius= Denis Petau, SJ
August 21 at 11:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz More, from an unpublished paper of 1868:
If abstract truths, (or what nominalits call "generalizations" from experience) are objective, (as realists would hold,) therefore they are objects- what is the object? Beautifulness, for instance- What does the mind see when it contemplates this abstraction?-is it God? if not, is it one of the Platonic everlasting ideas external to God? if not, can it be any thing at all, and are we not driven to agreement with the school of Locke and sensible experiences.
I dare say there is some simple refutation at once of the following answer, which has this only recommendation, that I have held it these forty years strenously- on the other hand I am so little versed in the controversy...
Ido not allow the existence of these abstract ideas corresponding to objective realities with Locke-but then, I do not pass over the experiences gained from the phenomena of mind so slightly, as I fancy the school of Locke is apt to do...
And more from the Grammar:
"All things in the exterior world are unit and individual, and are nothing else; but the mind not only contemplates those unit realities, as they exist, but has the gift, by an act of creation, of bringing before it abstractions and generalizations, which have no existence, no counterpart, out of it.
Now there are propositions, in which one or both of the terms are common nouns, as standing for what is abstract, general, and non-existing, such as "Man is an animal, some men are learned, an Apostle is a creation of Christianity, a line is length without breadth, to err is human, to forgive divine." These I shall call notional propositions, and the apprehension with which we infer or assent to them, notional.
And there are other propositions, which are composed of singular nouns, and of which the terms stand for {10} things external to us, unit and individual, as "Philip was the father of Alexander," "the earth goes round the sun," "the Apostles first preached to the Jews;" and these I shall call real propositions, and their apprehension real.
There are then two kinds of apprehension or interpretation to which propositions may be subjected, notional and real." (from chap 1)
And it won't take long to see he disparages "notional" That is even a common complaint among some of his fans.
August 22 at 12:06am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I wonder if nominalism is a sufficient structure to study and comment on history? Though the nominalist would probably view history as some sort of master science, since the well educated historian could make the best generalizations. That being said, history does not have universals, only generalizations, so a nominalist's approach to history might be a sufficient one.
This occurs to me about theology: The right context for theology is a well-ordered prayer life. The only one suited to judge about someone's well-ordered prayer life is a confessor or spiritual director, or oneself. Thus, a school that teaches theology must only make a well-ordered prayer life possible. A well-ordered prayer life, of course, has its pinnacle in Holy Mass. As perfect, it would include the fulness of liturgical observance with the Divine Office. This perhaps sheds light on a discussion we had above (note, Matthew J. Peterson, I do not say "before") when we discussed the lay theologian. Insofar as there is a valid and healthy prayer life possible for a layman, and insofar as there is truly a domestic church, then it is possible for there to be lay theologians. Though, evidently, lay theologians cannot obtain to the perfection that religious theologians do, because of the imperfection of their state in life.
Joshua, thanks for coming back to this thread!
August 22 at 1:39am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Joshua is right that Newman is not as realist as St Thomas, but he is certainly not as nominalist as analytic philosophy or empiricism. See: http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...
August 22 at 5:22am · Like · 1
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Anthony Crifasi I nominate you all to pour a bucket of ice on your heads every time a comment is added to this thread.
August 22 at 7:34am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger thanks joshua. I almost opened my grammar of assent for the first time. I think Joshua and James Larson (linked above) do a sufficient job proving Newman nominalist. Its obvious in some writings and undetectable in others (a modernist tactic). If someone refutes Larson on Newman i may seriously do some work. But i have a different question for Christopher or any one. Were there any notable theologians that an arm chair pope like i might know, who were nominalists? Because like Richard Weaver i view them as termites that hollow out faith and reason entirely?
August 22 at 7:59am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia don't want to waste clean water, Anthony.
So what does Newman's nominalism have to do with:
A) his idea of a university and
B) his idea of the development of Christian doctrine?
August 22 at 8:03am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger The idea is vacuous though. So what does it matter? (Seriously the only really great piece in it is on elementary education and in light of his nominalism and many imprecise statements most ironic.)
August 22 at 8:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger as to doctrine, he is modernist but one need read Pascendi for that to be understood. Nominalism undermines all doctrines.
August 22 at 8:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger i will elaborate if i have time.
August 22 at 8:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia I've read Pascendi, both for class at TAC and later on for my own personal reference (as a refresher).
Is it possible that his views on epistemology were inconsistent internally in his writings? Obviously if one is consistently nominalist, history and experimental science are the only fields of (valid) study.
(I am reminded of the mathematician Gauss saying he wanted to have people on the tops of three mountain peaks, sufficiently far apart, to measure the interior angles of a triangle between the three to determine whether geometry is Euclidean or not...)
August 22 at 8:23am · Like
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John Ruplinger I've read Pascendi several times over a year ago, and I am in need of a reread. I have a terrible memory. It is packed and applying it takes time. The modernist heresy (as therein defined) is the GOAT (or WOAT) in the history of the Church -- I have no doubt and if any do, they don't get or reject Pasceni imo -- and it's influence is ubiquitous. It certainly leads to apostasy step by step and so many in little or great ways are unknowingly caught up in it. (I do not condemn Newman the person, to be clear. He was suspect in his day and Cardinal Manning, esp. argued against him. Again, I rely a lot on James Larson but will do my own work if he be refuted, because the arguments are the lever imo to move all that follows).
I don't think any of the nominalist are consistent. They use or don't use logic as it suits them. If all ideas are as empty as they they think then nominalism itself is highly improbable as an idea, no?
Bacon is most forthright. In the preface to one of his works (I can't remember), he openly admits profound skepticism but declares that he will unlike the skeptics of old, be inconsistent: a self-proclaimed sophist in the old negative sense, at least he is honest. He also slips in and out of the old method of argument as he list in Novum Organon which obviously is nothing but a replacement for logic.
As to consistency again, Pius X points out the modernist have almost a double mind (and so too nominalists); they have a double truth almost. And shift from writing as nominalist, to writing as one of Faith. Or in the case of dogma, they assent to it outwardly, but I cannot understand how they assent inwardly. God knows. Tis a puzzlement.
August 22 at 9:03am · Like
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John Ruplinger Returning to the "Idea of University", they are simply a collection of lectures, and I was never much impressed with them. In them he actually outlines the modern university. The only piece on Elementary Education, was obviously never a lecture but a very clever dialogue. In it, however, some of the wrong methods of learning in mid19th century are evident: esp. the stagnant English method of Latin which the Jesuits traditionally taught orally (much easier to learn). At the same time it is a very good and thought provoking dialogue, showing the need to balance self-learning and receive DIRECTION from a tutor -- apropos to the earlier beginnings of a discussion on education.
One note: the Jesuits were famous for conducting their classes in a delightful way such that the students so interested learned the most difficult things almost effortlessly. I wish I knew how they did it. Waugh (Edmund Campion) points it out (and others). Fr. Thomas Hughes wrote the only book in English detailing their course and giving some insight to what they did. Peregrine might be interested to learn that St. Ignatius himself thought rhetoric (read literature) was the only part of the course NEVER to be compromised: literature for THREE years -- to ease Peregrine's concerns, he should also note that they excised the more salacious and saltry parts of texts like parts of Book II of the Aeneid. anyways, gotta run ..... late already.
August 22 at 9:10am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Hmmm. John, did you read the text to which Pater Edmund linked? There is a strong argument against his being a nominalist there.
I have kept hearing that there are several texts and places of Pascendi that condemn Newman, but this more and more starting to sound like something made up. Currently, there is only slander being proffered: "He was suspect in his time," "So and so said he was Nominalist", etc.
It seems that Joshua made some real, text-based arguments for Newman being a Nominalist. I would be interested to see his response to Pater Edmund.
What is more, I suggested above that one engaging in an historical or practical project, might very well come off as a nominalist.
Finally, one should be wary of saying, "This guy had bad or weak philosophy, therefore he is a modernist." We can't go that route for many reasons. One of which is that such an approach robs Pascendi of its force.
Maybe it is time to go to the chapel and pray for Bl. Newman's intercession. Then maybe re-read his texts, perhaps with greater charity and sobriety of mind.
August 22 at 9:17am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia the Aeneid?? Apparently St. Ignatius didn't teach the fullness of sacred theology in accordance with the magisterium
August 22 at 9:19am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele Not that secondary sources count for much around here, but in Copleston's History of Philosophy Volume VIII he suggests that Newman's approach is more along phenomenological lines. In summarizing Newman's approach to the assent of faith he says
"[...]we must distinguish between two types of assent. Assent given to a proposition apprehended as notional, as concerned with abstract ideas or universal terms, is notional assent, while that which is given to propositions apprehended as real, as concerned directly with things or persons, is real assent.
Now Newman takes it that things and persons, whether objects of actual experience or preented imaginatively in memory, strike the mind much more forcibly and vividly than do abstract notions. ****Real apprehension therefore is 'stronger than notional, because things, which are its objects, are confessedly more impressive and effective than notions, which are the object of notional [apprehension]. Experiences and their images strike and occupy the mind, as abstractions and their combinations so not.' ****** Similarly, although, according to Newman, all assent is alike in being unconditional, acts of assent 'are elicited more heartily and forcibly, when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made upon real apprehension which has things for its objects, than when they are made in favour of notions and with a notional apprehension.' Further, real assent, though it does not necessarily affect conduct, tends to do so in a way in which purely notional assent does not.
Real assent is also called belief by Newman. [...]" pg. 517
Copleston's quotes are taken from the Grammar of Assent. He never really gets to the point of calling Newman, well, a member of any philosophical school in particular. The asterisked part indicates the main section in this passage that I underlined when I read it. Side question: is phenomenology a secret cover for nominalism, because now I'm confused...
August 22 at 9:28am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think there is a very distinct difference between nominalism (which Newman may or may not have been.... I think Mr. Kenz did some good work with that) and phenomenology.
But I think it is pretty clear from a study of Brittish Empiricists that the separation into "notional" and "real" leads directly to nominalism.
August 22 at 9:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so maybe he (Newman) wasn't a nominalist, but he could see it from his house....
August 22 at 9:54am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I can't speak for Daniel, but no, obviously
August 22 at 10:22am · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Mr. ...um... Mr. PB Scott, is there a certain list of texts you have in mind for content? I have the impression that it is basically church councils, Scripture, and the Catechism but I might be mistaken; also you may have posted a list earlier that I missed. Also for what you mean by structure my closest guess is chronological. I am just telling you what my basic impression of your ideas are, you can give a yea or nay and explain further.
August 22 at 10:29am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Nina Rachele In addition, I think Mr. Lendman's outline is consonant with Augustine's own qualifications in De Doctrina Christiana.
August 22 at 10:32am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I consider myself spoken for.
August 22 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nina, I am liking you more and more, by the post.
August 22 at 10:37am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Rather than unpacking what Newman is known for and examining it, giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand what he means, and then weighing that, and trying to understand why so many of good might tout and study and say they learn from him:
Note how we are now leaping to write him off based on where he says things that oppose a body of thought we identify with.
This is the hermeneutic of inquisition.
It is worth noting that he didn't receive a Thomistic education (not his fault - things had imploded) but this doesn't answer the question - it might be important, of course, but it might not. I'm glad it's been brought out - and it very much worth noting - but it is not a refutation.
He's not known and praised and read for his epistemology.
August 22 at 10:39am · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The idea that phenomenology is nominalism, however, is just absurd to my mind. The long line of people who came out of Husserl - nominalists? They were trying to save the world from positivism and historicism for Pete's sake.
August 22 at 10:39am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Though, Matthew, it does seem worthwhile to argue that Newman's philosophy was not a damning impediment to his theological work, specifically with regard to development.
I am still interested in Joshua Kenz's response to Pater Edmund.
August 22 at 10:46am · Like
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John Ruplinger Daniel Lendman, your accusation is thoroughly absurd. Not a quote in this thread from Newman, that has not been shown to be or is evidently unsound. I've linked James Larson. I don't expect any here to refute him, but his criticism is devastating. I have read a deal of Newman with great care.
August 22 at 10:50am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...my name is Daniel.
August 22 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman And you argue like a politician.
August 22 at 10:51am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Me too - and also I am interested in anyone's response to Newman's kinds of development that Nina Rachele brought out.
August 22 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please lay things out clearly.
August 22 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Nina's text is interesting.
August 22 at 10:52am · Like
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Michael Beitia okay, lemme get this straight, Newman isn't known or read for his epistemology, but we have to read this idea of development of doctrine (which seems pretty epistemological). Which is it?
August 22 at 10:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or is it more historical?
August 22 at 10:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia historical in the sense of Historicist is epistemological
August 22 at 10:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman or phenomenological?
August 22 at 10:54am · Like
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John Ruplinger Yeah, don't discuss his epistemology which is the heart and root of the problem. As to Nina, that is a summary and I disagree with Newman. Notional assent is more certain than assent to the world of phenomena. Again, evidence of his nominalism
August 22 at 10:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger As to Pater Edmund's link, I read I thought the whole article, but maybe not.
August 22 at 10:56am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I'd start with what he says about development and then tie that his episteme if I was against him. Kenz did a bit of that tie so it wasn't quite clear.
But anyone for 'em is going to say who gives a crap about what he thought about universals if you read the rest of his writings - he was stuck with crappy episteme and the rest of his work doesn't really rely on it.
Etc.
August 22 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This is the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting, not knowing what it was, and they'll keep on posting forever just because this is thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my...
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Michael Beitia so you're saying baptize his works like Thomas did to Aristoilet?
August 22 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I agree, Matthew Miller
August 22 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman To both things.
August 22 at 10:57am · Like
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Pater Edmund OK, so I've put all the nominations that have been posted so far into a google doc: https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...
And I've set it so it can be edited by anyone who has the link. Please complete titles years etc. and add nominations under the correct headings. But if you add a nomination mention hear on the thread as well.
Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs
docs.google.com
August 22 at 10:57am · Edited · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger So Lendman, every response I've made is merely "political". I don't think you hardly read half of my responses.
August 22 at 10:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
August 22 at 10:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger Will you please, oh sir sigh a lot, return above and show me how or how not Nina's quote of Newman's understanding of metaphysical development is not ridiculous?
August 22 at 11:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger I've tried to be fair as well as polemical, but I am quite concerned as other better thinkers than I about the nominalist position.
August 22 at 11:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Maybe it is. I would just like to see an argument, that's all.
August 22 at 11:01am · Like
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John Ruplinger THen best begin yourself, and not hurl insults maybe, no?
August 22 at 11:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia are you really John, and Daniel) going to make us scroll *all* the way up to the quote on metaphysical? Really? My eternal return of the same circle only goes clockwise.....
August 22 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Nina Rachele "[...] metaphysical developments; I mean such as are a mere analysis of the idea contemplated, and terminate in its exact and complete delineation [...] in the sacred provinces of theology, the mind may be employed in developing the solemn ideas, which it has hitherto held implicitly and without subjecting them to its reflecting and reasoning powers." pg 52, Ch1 section 9
August 22 at 11:04am · Like
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John Ruplinger My response: Nina, as to his "metaphysical" development, as he states it thus quoted, shouldn't he just say "logical" development instead. It seems a misuse of the term metaphysical, if what he is saying is just drawing out conclusions from other propositions we know by Faith. He seems to be mystifying what should be straight forward. But is this all that Newman means? ......and for that, you're going to have me look elsewhere.
August 22 at 11:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Great. You say that this is absurd, John. Why?
August 22 at 11:05am · Like
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Joel HF Re theses: Didn't Rebecca Loop come back and give her thesis "On Exemplary Causality in the First Being" as a lecture to the college? A version of it was published in The Aquinas Review (1998), iirc. Anyone have a copy of it?
August 22 at 11:05am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, that is an interesting point you make.
August 22 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how about: when was "metaphysical" "mere analysis"?
August 22 at 11:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is not clear to me what he means by metaphysical.
August 22 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he says "mere analysis of the idea contemplated"
August 22 at 11:08am · Like
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Michael Beitia which to me would be quasi-nominalist.....
August 22 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In this context, he says that. I am not sure that we should put too much weight on that as an exhaustive account.
August 22 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, Rebecca's thesis was the only one of which I'm aware that was awarded by TAC a higher honor than double distinction--namely publication in TAC's in house journal.
August 22 at 11:08am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Caldwell High School 4-evah!
August 22 at 11:09am · Like
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Nina Rachele The basic question right now is whether Newman's nominalism (if we can call it that) negates the legitimacy of his thesis on metaphysical developments in Christian doctrine? Is that right?
August 22 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger It does require reading more of what Newman says. I thought that Joshua's commentary was pretty revealing. Again, I'm most familiar with Newman's "idea" (and indeed what does that mean given his notions of idea?) of a university. He was acclaimed the great orator of his day, but is unimpressive -- not just my judgment but others better than I who even agree with his development and stand on infallibility.
August 22 at 11:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger no Nina
August 22 at 11:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger It's just that every quote of Newman in the last 200 comments, does not stand up to scrutiny.
August 22 at 11:10am · Like
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Nina Rachele Woops, waited too long to post ::twiddles fingers::
August 22 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So what are the requirements re theses? Double D?
August 22 at 11:11am · Like
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Joel HF The comments in Pater Edmund's "Unwritten Tradition" are, I think, illuminating on just how concerning Newman's nominalism or near nominalism or confusion w/r/t Universals ought to be. I find it very comforting that Newman apparently said things like "[T]here is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered."
With that said, I'm no Newman scholar myself, so I'll sit back and listen to my betters.
August 22 at 11:12am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am not ready to condemn Newman as a nominalist. It is not clear to me how clear he was on philosophy at all.
August 22 at 11:13am · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger And I am ready to lift mine if someone show a good argument to the contrary. I just see that Newman opened a can of worms. I'm still trying to find Pater Edmund's link...........
August 22 at 11:15am · Like
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Pater Edmund Matthew, no special requirements; they just have to be really good.
August 22 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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Joel HF To be clear, I'm not condemning Newman. He appears to be at least close to nominalism at times, but again, I'm no Newman scholar, or anything scholar really!
August 22 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund John Ruplinger, here's the link (pp.84-99): http://www.scribd.com/.../Newman-s-Apologia-and-the-Drama...
Newman's Apologia and the Drama of Faith and Reason - Draft5
www.scribd.com
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
August 22 at 11:18am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger see.................... I don't respect sacred cows of the present moment. Countless old doctors of the Church are treated like spittoons. I'm not even spitting
August 22 at 11:21am · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Double D would be the norm, I'd imagine (or at least distinction for the written part). Didn't they used to give theses letter grades? I recall Kolbeck telling me he changed that to pass/fail/distinction while he was dean.
August 22 at 11:18am · Like
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Pater Edmund Oh, but you must respect sacred cows! Nostra Aetate!
August 22 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele What is the question we are currently answering, if what I stated above is not the question? Unless we have just gone straight into talking about Newman's thought generally speaking, which I admit I am not qualified to do.
August 22 at 11:19am · Like
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Pater Edmund Whether one must respect sacred cows.
August 22 at 11:20am · Like · 5
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Joel HF Nina Rachele, We are each of us talking about our own pet topics, as our minds each flit from one to the next. Discourse and dialogue were right out almost from the start.
August 22 at 11:21am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia It seems that one should not respect sacred cows, for as the philosopher says....
August 22 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Oh, Ryan Burke, I didn't include your thesis on why my thesis is wrong. So I guess that's another rule: no republicanism.
August 22 at 11:23am · Unlike · 4
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Nina Rachele What can I say... old habits die hard...
August 22 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger see you later., perhaps. and I got that doc downloaded this time. Maybe I read a different one.
August 22 at 11:30am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Mine was a double D in defense of Beauty that was what I took to be St. Thomas wrapped at start and end with winged words. The goal was to seriously defend Beauty as transcendental-ish without falling into the sort of aesthetic flummery that is increasing prevalent today (you could see it already present and coming on strong), and without being a rationalist Neanderthal.
Mrs. Gustin said it was the best thesis she ever read - but, of course, for many people this was the equivalent to a condemnation...
August 22 at 11:32am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I blame Pater Edmund... he totally derailed this convo
August 22 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRJ38y4Jn6k
Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( It's Over, Go Home [ Ending ])
Ferris Bueller's Day Off ( Movie Clip: " It's Over, Go Home " [ Ending ])
August 22 at 11:32am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia well, we were about to put Newman on the index, and then Pater Edmund has to go and collect a list of things that go on the Pope Perescott index.....
August 22 at 11:34am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund But actually Ruplinger, the one Joel cited was this: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/
Unwritten Tradition
sancrucensis.wordpress.com
Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the indispensable pdf of Denzinger-Hünermann, I was struck by how often they use some variation on ...
August 22 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Ryan Burke To be fair, Pater Edmund, my thesis has borne up less well than past me thought it would. Also to be fair, your thesis was written to prove me wrong, rather than vice versa, as I recall
August 22 at 11:47am · Edited · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Tim Furlan, what was your thesis called?
August 22 at 11:48am · Like
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Nina Rachele Would it be textbook based or a selection of primary sources?
August 22 at 11:52am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Tim's was called
"Brilliant, but loooong..."
August 22 at 11:53am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger yeah. 2 different links
August 22 at 12:00pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia the ordinary, or extraordinary, or Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?
August 22 at 12:12pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Would the primary sources be presented in their entirety, with one author studied at a time, or would (for example) multiple authors be presented on a single topic?
August 22 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz 1200. Laughable. Not worth a discussion until this thread hits at least 1500.
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Michael Beitia I'm still holding out hope for perfection: 8128
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Michael Beitia but I would like an answer as to which "magisterium" we're talking about. Distinguo distinguo distinguo
August 22 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Principally the data presented by the extraordinary magisterium. This is really necessary for subsequent theological inquiry in the areas of faith and morals, and the examination of parts of the Summa, the principle writing of the doctors through the Reformation, and to present. This is not that difficult.
August 22 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what if the extraordinary magisterium tells us to study the Magisterium cathedrae magistralis?
August 22 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele So, by extraordinary magisterium, you mean church councils? Is that correct?
August 22 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pater, at page 40 and looking for the pertinant point
August 22 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pater, you owe me a decade of the rosary for slogging through your reasonable summary of the last 500 years of philosophy.
August 22 at 12:28pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The question of "development of doctrine" is what development means, of course, and not whether or not it happens from a human point of view, or whether or not it happens in extremely messy ways and to radical extents, often in reaction to vehement disagreements regarding specific policies, etc.
We don't need Newman or other names to discuss how doctrine develops.
August 22 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Then we would have to do it.
August 22 at 12:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger nice. I caught that red herring.
August 22 at 12:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger newman is on trial. His books must burn
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John Ruplinger i agree. MP. But investigating newman, helps. We can say what it is not.
August 22 at 12:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson, there you go all irresponsibly thinking you can determine if doctrine develops or not.
August 22 at 12:32pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think what we are trying to do here is help the student develop a theological habit of mind. This involves assent to stuff we cannot know by reason. And also a sense of how the Church examines these issues as part of a theology, certainly in light of Scripture and history, and how She comes to make true statements worthy of belief. There is a theology at work here, and students in a four year Catholic college can be introduced to it in a way that is good in itself and also lays the groundwork for future studies in theology.
August 22 at 12:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah - let's do that then. How are Newman's definitions that Nina Rachele posted wrong?
August 22 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia First of all, Newman's idea of metaphysical development seems to lack any metaphysics\
August 22 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Mr. PB Scott: Would your objections to the TAC curriculum be removed if all (or most) of the major councils were included? Or is your real objection to the seminar method itself?
August 22 at 12:41pm · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He wants the Catechism. (And no seminar method)
August 22 at 12:51pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I have no objection to the seminar method. It is the best. There are 400+ major doctrines of the Church. They came from somewhere. Students need to get a sense of how they came to be in the "mind" of the Church, so to speak; and the reasonability of doctrine, and the theological process of mind that underscores things worthy of belief. This is not a philosophical habit of mind, which TAC is really good at. This is different than that, and this requires a special regimen. Certainly some of the councils would be useful, but the main thing are the theological principles which came from the councils, and Sacred Scripture, and how the Church and Her principle theologians have supported those in their thinking over the years.
August 22 at 12:54pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, that is a complete misrepresentation of my beliefs. I am puzzled and a bit shocked by your assertion. It is not true. Please see my comment immediately above.
August 22 at 1:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Adding my sister, Lucy Nolan's thesis on the Brother's K.
August 22 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Perescott seems to be saying a whole bunch of nothing
August 22 at 1:10pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Here's a snip from John Senior's polemic against TAC in The Restoration of Christian Culture:
«In this crucial respect of finality the curriculum at some Catholic colleges is superior to the older secular programs they are modeled on; but even so it would be wise for the Thomist philosophers among them to recall the Scholastic dictum that means must be proportionate to ends. The seminar as a means of learning purports to be a dialectic process derived from the Socratic dialogues. Even if this were so–which a glance at Plato’s text proves false, and even if there were students prepared for such a course–which a glance at their reading habits proves ridiculous, but even if there were such a dialectic and such students, without the formal lecture and professors who draw not just the questions but the right answers out, these seminars slide down into bull-sessions in which the strongest bull or the most artful dodger wins; and if such sessions become habitual, they result in arrogant skepticism, which is where Plato’s Academy ended. Students need systematic exposition of ideas and hard, daily practice of logical disputation under the controlled conditions of real debate; and, without years of training in gymnastics, music, poetry, art, history, and in manners, morals and religion, which used to be supplied by Christian homes and schools, the exchange of opinion in Great Books seminars encourages the very sophistry Socrates gave his life to combat. The student learns a critical method with which to demolish the ideas of others without having grasped any reality in the ideas at all and worst of all, if he has failed in the meantime to master his appetites and temperament–if he is weak, impatient, malicious, sensuous or indolent–with such critical weapons he is well on his way to Vanity Fair, where you get a Ph.D. and tenure.
The ancients distinguished four degrees of knowledge: the poetic, where truths are grasped intuitively as when you trust another’s love; the rhetorical, where we are persuaded by evidence, but without conclusive proof, admitting that we might be wrong, as when we vote for a political candidate; next the dialectical mode in which we conclude to one of two opposing arguments beyond a reasonable doubt, with the kind of evidence sufficient for conviction in a law court or in a laboratory testing to certify a drug for human use; and finally, in the scientific mode–science in the ancient and not the modern sense which is dialectical and rhetorical, but science as epistamai–we reach to absolute certitude as when we know the whole is greater than the part, that motion presupposes agency or know obvious facts such as Cuba is an island because we sailed around it. Each of these degrees has its appropriate faculties: poetry, memorization and imaginative play; rhetoric, precept and practice; dialectic, scholastic disputation and laboratory experiment; science, systematic exposition. But where does “class discussion” come in? Well, it isn’t on the list at all, and not because the ancients didn’t think of it, but because they rejected it. »
August 22 at 1:12pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Catholic college needs to be positive in its understanding of the principle theological teachings of the Catholic church, and the theological basis of the Faith. The Catholic college cannot stand only on a metaphysical examination of the Faith. The best way to study theology is the Socratic method because the development of doctrine is principally a historical-dialectical process. But the principle teachings of Faith must be presented in a positive way in a Catholic college. This is necessary not only for catechesis, but also absolutely necessary for the theological inquiry and conversation.
August 22 at 1:15pm · Like
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Joel HF Is there an online copy of the whole of Senior's polemic contra TAC?
August 22 at 1:18pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure You guys are really a bunch of arrogant jerks. It is necessary for the Catholic college to understand the theological basis of what we believe. This is a theological inquiry, not a philosophical one.
You do not seem to be capable of even understanding this.
August 22 at 1:18pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick If you can't think logically how are you going to get all that greatness out of the documents? Especially the newer ones which are not written as clearly? Isn't that how we have people using a document to support their position when their position is torn apart two paragraphs later in the same document?
August 22 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure TAC is in crisis. I will let you pigs figure it out.
August 22 at 1:19pm · Like
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Joel HF What a charmer!
August 22 at 1:21pm · Like · 4
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Nina Rachele In an idealized theological course of study, would every class cover a different doctrine and its support? Or for example, would a council be read, and then say the full works of three or four theologians of the time who supported it? Edit: assuming each class is still taught under the seminar method
August 22 at 1:22pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund https://www.facebook.com/.../tac-the.../582559135127560...
TAC, the Magisterium and The lights of Faith and Reason
On August 2 I provoked a very long thread that started with this quote from a friend, Scott Weinberg, critical of TAC. "From all I have been told on this subject, it seems to me that what the Chur
By: Richard Delahide Ferrier
August 22 at 1:24pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele ^link isn't working?
August 22 at 1:25pm · Like
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Nina Rachele oh, I think it's because I'm not friends with Dr. Ferrier.
August 22 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'm tired of your arrogant barbs, silly jokes, idiotic statements. So many TACers are incapable... Lauren and Nina, your comments are disingenuous. Maintain the logical basis. Present Faith positively, or lose it and your audience.
August 22 at 1:26pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick You're not friends with Dr Ferrier???? oh... I'm not either...
August 22 at 1:27pm · Like
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Nina Rachele ? All I've been doing is asking questions.
August 22 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele No, I never had him as a tutor unfortunately...think I had him for an all-school once maybe...
August 22 at 1:28pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Joel HF, no free version, but it's on Kindle.
August 22 at 1:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ok. I have refused to engage you, O Foolish Troll, but you cross the line when you insult women. Go away, Scott. Now.
August 22 at 1:29pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman If you were here I would punch you. Hard. And I am really good at punching.
August 22 at 1:30pm · Unlike · 3
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Nina Rachele Mr. PB Scott, if you have just been describing one school's particular curriculum, then just go ahead and send me a link, you don't need to waste your time with an explanation.
August 22 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure There's no such thing as an ideal theological course. Are you actually asking if only one doctrine would be covered per class in an undergraduate theology class? Is this a serious question?
August 22 at 1:31pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick You keep saying things, but practically what would those things look like at a "real" Catholic school. I think that's all we are asking .
August 22 at 1:32pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Well, yes. I assumed we were discussing what the ideal theological course was and why TAC did not look like that ideal.
August 22 at 1:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nina, I would not waste your time. He is not interested in real discourse. I know.
August 22 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nina, I do think I have been wasting my time discussing this with you.
August 22 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund More places where this has been gone over in detail (1): https://www.facebook.com/richa.../posts/10151881807463949...
Richard Delahide Ferrier
From a TAC alum, and Christendom grad. I would love to see many comments.
August 22 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Like I said. He is sniveling prig.
August 22 at 1:33pm · Like
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Pater Edmund and (2): https://www.facebook.com/notes/sean-collins/on-some-questions-about-teaching-catholic-doctrine/10151799390270960
On Some Questions About Teaching "Catholic Doctrine"
Richard Delahide Ferrier suggests we go to bed ... reasonable enough, except that I'm a night owl, and this looks like my chance to jump into a very interesting conversation that I didn't know about b
By: Sean Collins
August 22 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Well, I for my part have learned quite a bit.
August 22 at 1:33pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele ^good, I can read that one
August 22 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Count your blessings, John.
August 22 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wear it like a badge of honour John
August 22 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Just what I was thinking Nina!
August 22 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And Nina, those other places will witness to my patience and forbearance with regard to the troll.
August 22 at 1:34pm · Like
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Pater Edmund As I said above, I will always be grateful to the Peregrine for provoking these discussions.
August 22 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele Can we get back to Newman now, please?
August 22 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Pater Edmund is dragging up old memories there with the Ferrier thread. But yes, we had some good discoveries even then.
August 22 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Befriend Richard Delahide Ferrier all - and read that note and the comments.
August 22 at 1:36pm · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Does anyone agree with me that an inquiry of sacred theology is different than a metaphysical inquiry? Does anyone agree that a theological inquiry relates intrinsically to what the Church promulgates as worthy of belief? Does anyone agree with me that this is not mere catechesis? Does anyone agree that Catholic theology in a Catholic college should include this? does anyone maintain that TAC does this? If, explain how. Please, no more idiocy.
August 22 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sadly, Pater Edmund, Scott's credibility is bankrupt. His initial questions are interesting and important. It is the follow-up that is the problem.
August 22 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure In a Catholic college, when you teach theology, you need a positive presentation of the doctrines of the Faith, and the theological basis of these doctrines or principles. This is how theology is taught in most Catholic colleges. You could do this easily at TAC, in seminar. This is not advocacy against the seminar method, or for catechesis.
Do you see this?
Is this "worthy of discourse" for you?
August 22 at 1:42pm · Like
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Joel HF In charity, Daniel, I think Scott has burdens and crosses to bear irl, and as such cannot be treated as one would treat a man sound of mind and body who acted thus.
August 22 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Pater Edmund thank you for linking that Ferrier thread, it is very interesting so far...
August 22 at 1:49pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Joel, you're a jerk. Best of luck to you arrogant Catholics from TAC.
August 22 at 1:53pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I love how barely making it through the program lumps me with all the brilliant minds that came out of TAC. How long do you have to attend for this label to be present? (Obviously this is not a serious question, but merely a musing)
August 22 at 1:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Your arrogance is proof of your lack of theological formation.
August 22 at 1:57pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Brilliant minds?
August 22 at 1:58pm · Like
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Joel HF Though I do enjoy poking fun, I didn't mean to insult with my last comment, actually. I too am grateful to Scott for provoking the original threads, though he needn't be quite so provoking, in my view. Still I dont think dialogue is possible at this point, not when insults fly quite so readily. But dialogue is hardly the point of the thread, is it?
August 22 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Dr. Waldstein came to mind when I made that comment.
August 22 at 2:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I still have honest questions about what "theological inquiry" is. and "theological basis" and "theological principles"
Help me out Perescottgrinebonawienventureburg
August 22 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele Need to get ready for work... I expect plenty of new insights about Newman when I get back here....
August 22 at 2:04pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'm at work. I call it "multi-trolling"
August 22 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia except I always come back to the same thing: I need to know what sort of principles, inquiry and basis is (theologically speaking) in order that I can honestly answer (to the best of my abilities) whatever the hell Scott is talking about.
August 22 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Stefon: "Facebook’s hottest thread is Peterson’s Never-ending Thread. This thread has it all: pseudonymous trolls demanding magesterium, fake thesis titles, Newman debates, trolling, reverse-trolling, collections of real theses, Monks, hipster protestants, rad trads, and neo caths."
August 22 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like · 12
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Claire Keeler YAY! Stefon lives!
August 22 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler reverse trolling! LOL! but there should be some mention of midgets doing something unseemly
August 22 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia hey! I'm short, but not that short!
August 22 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler "A human fanny pack? What's that?" "It's that thing of where a midget hangs around your waist and you keep your passport in his mouth"
August 22 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF "A magesteri-midget? It's that thing, where you get a midget to follow you around and shout abuse about how you don't follow the true magesterium."
August 22 at 2:53pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Thank you the kind-hearted rebuke Joel. I fell into the trap of taking a troll seriously.
August 22 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Sean Plus Anne Schniederjan I know what this thread needs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEKZJp-x-Dc
Jay Ferguson ~ Thunder Island
a song of Jay's i like made video because was no good studio version on video ...enjoy
August 22 at 3:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the sad thing is that he brings up things worth talking about.....and then spins in circles before the insults come out.
At TAC we learned the proper order of things. Insult first.
August 22 at 3:29pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure TAC is a heresy factory. It is named after Saint Thomas Aquinas, and claims to teach under the Magisterium, but is confused about sacred theology, how you teach it, if you should teach it, what it is, and what it's for, etc. It replaces metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology, and its alum teach things like reason enlightens faith. This is formal and material heresy.
August 22 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wish you would be more clear, and less pugnacious.
August 22 at 5:13pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "TAC is a heresy factory"=best quote of the week.
August 22 at 5:20pm · Unlike · 8
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Lauren Ogrodnick A lot of the class of 2014 wrote on Contemplation this year! Wow! I didn't notice that at graduation!
August 22 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews "TAC is a heresy factory"
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Just because everyone discovers in Sophomore year that they are semi-pelagian...
August 22 at 5:28pm · Unlike · 6
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Anthony Crifasi I'm pouring a bucket of ice on my own head just for that quote alone.
August 22 at 5:41pm · Like · 4
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Brian Gerrity This conversation thread is making my head spin, probably because every time I see it there are around 200 additional comments.
August 22 at 5:52pm · Like · 3
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Brian Gerrity Not sure why, but "TAC is a heresy factory" just made me laugh so hard I snorted. And that's my last frivolous comment for now.
August 22 at 5:55pm · Like · 5
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Brian Gerrity The only questionable comment I can recall was the blue book stating that graduating from the college was a sign of predestination. Hardly qualifies the college as a heresy factory.
August 22 at 6:27pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Kurt, I have to thank Christendom College. Erin visited there when she was in high school.
August 22 at 6:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger if TAC is a heresy factory, why am i alone excommunicated?
August 22 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Heresy open bar?
August 22 at 8:51pm · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom Heresy tapas bar.
August 22 at 9:05pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia heresy salad bar
August 22 at 9:11pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland What does it say about our moral sense that the only thesis on ethics in the proposed theses doc is about torture, and not contra torture either?
August 22 at 9:12pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Jason Van Boom OK, just to make things weirder:
There's a Muslim college in Berkeley, California inspired by TAC, in part. The founders are big fans of TAC.
And no, the name is not The Averroist College!
August 22 at 9:16pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is the "heresy factory" a quote from the Blue Book? (or is this a new addition?)
August 22 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Well, TAC grads create longer threads than FUS grads do....
But the FUS threads are dirtier.
August 22 at 9:36pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Ryland: Modernist!
August 22 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Susan Peterson Mr. Bonaventure, In seminar, one discusses a text. It is not a setting for the presentation of someone elses conclusions. A tutorial would be closer to the setting for the kind of thing you are discussing. I am a St. Johnnie, not a TAC grad, so I don't know exactly what they do there, but if it is anything like St. John's, even in tutorial there is a spirit of inquiry. The texts would still be "great books", not a "textbook" and students would still be wrestling with the words of the writer. I would imagine that there would be some guidance from the tutor, which might at times include information about how various understandings of a work fit with doctrine. Why can't you just accept that different schools have different goals and methods, and choose to prefer the one you prefer, without haunting the threads of alumni of another college?
August 22 at 9:48pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger well. I finisned pater's mostly fine piece and the chapter on illative sense. Lots to say ....
August 22 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Actually I think TAC is mixed on the torture debates, and probably most against. It is mixed about America as well.
But, of course, many at TAC think the Ethics are "easy" and "lowly" compared to the more difficult and noble and important and lofty natural philosophy and metaphysics...
August 22 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It would be "selling out to do a thesis on Ethics. Still, many of these seem related, at least.
August 22 at 9:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger hope it helps. Later...
August 22 at 9:51pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ethics is boring... Well actually I think it was just more intuitive than motion for me. . .
August 22 at 9:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Unlike some of you people, I have a job! Sheesh...
In response to Pater Edmund, I started reading your link, and was quickly disappointed in the shallowness of assertions. Top of pg. 85, "Knowledge of things is not caused by their ideal forms, but by contemplating the thingsthemselves, or abstracting universals from them; it is founded, in a word, on experience."
And where on earth is that in Newman? Oh, no where. In fact, that is rejected quite expressly by him. He quotes Newman, from one of the same passages I quoted, but leaves out what he says about such generalizations.
I would certainly not call Newman the most radical nominalist. Any barely coherent nominalist epistemology has to have some version of a correspondence theory, resemblance, etc. But what is clear is that the "abstract" generalizations, for Newman, can only give us "probabilities" about concrete things. But he is interested in "concrete truths" so these universals, whatever role they may play, become irrelevant in knowing reality. He is extremely clear about that. That is not Aristotelian. And it sure as heck is not Platonist.
" The Grammar of Assent is relentlessly Aristotelian from start to finish"
I am sorry, but the more I read, the more I find there to be no argument, just assertions. Newman is not a Platonist because he waxed poetical.
And because he avers to Aristotle, so what? So did some of the greatest nominalists such of Ockham.
The only mention of universals in the Grammar I again already quoted. Where he mocks logic, as "dressing up middle terms" and proceeds to dismiss the search for universals, since that is not about the real, but the notional...not the concrete facts (that is all he cares about), but the abstract.
And there is only one other place, outside of unpublished notes (of which I post parts of one that show he had trouble, to his credit by his own admission, understanding the whole dispute!). That is here: in a comment following this one
August 22 at 9:57pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia are we back to Newman?
August 22 at 10:03pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz "A very difficult question arises whether the subject of ideas comes directly into the province of Logic. Or in other words, whether names or terms stand for ideas or for things. It will be said that ideas and things go together, and therefore the question is unimportant ~ but there is the case in which there is, or is imagined, an idea without a thing, that is, the case of Universals.
Accordingly those then on the side of Things against Ideas, say that there are not universal ideas; and a controversy ensues which is nothing else than a portion of the old scholastic controversy, between the Nominalists, Realists, and Conceptionists."
Actually I tire of typing it out. I will summarize, in this passage he does say that a) he tends to agree with the Catholics in holding universals. b) but the onus of proof is on them c) and then he gives some lengthy unclear examples, and ends in saying that there are two types of universals. His examples are all about particulars. "and taking that question [whether Caesar refers to the thing or the idea] away, it certainly does seem more simple and natural to say the words stand for the things."
Heck he seems not to grasp what is meant by universal, in phrasing the question as he does (whether Caesar, a particular, refers to the man or the idea of Caesar). He ends arguing that it refers to the thing. Unless it is abstract. His examples of abstract versus ratio pura universals are "man is a rational animal" and "the whole is greater than the part" The latter is the only he accepts for reasoning, and his examples are all mathematical. The latter, again, only gives "probability" about concrete things.
We might recall that for Aquinas the universal is something that is attached to the essence as it exists in the mind, as an image with a likeness to many subjects. You could say Newman holds the same about his ideas corresponding to things, but where it becomes nominalist is that it becomes a mere generalization, not a universal truth, which is why we cannot know that Socrates is mortal just because he is a man and man is mortal. We have to know the "units" That is where real knowledge is for Newman.
cf. Lecture on Logic, Jan/Feb 1859
August 22 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Beitia, sorry, after less than a full night sleep and then a long day of work, I see Lendman asked for my response to Pater Edmund's link. So I obliged in spite of the intervening comments.
August 22 at 10:22pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz That said, I will go back and read more carefully the linked essay, lest I too readily dismissed it. I should have the time to do that sometime in 2015 (hey too much to do)....I only read snippets, and what seemed as assertions might substantiated later....
August 22 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I have a number of observations about Pater Edmund's thesis (130 pages). It's a worthwhile read. In particular, my thesis that nominalism invites immanentism, he seems to confirm. It's only when he enters into Newman's epitstemology and development of doctrine (p. 84) that I start to disagree.
I second Joshua's comment about Newman's "Aristotelian" leanings. Just because Newman claims to be Aristotelian (p. 85) doesn't make it so: that would mean Ayn Rand is Aristotelian also.
There is a mistake in Pater's interpretation of Newman on p. 91 in the confused notion of real vs. notional apprehension. The boy's apprehension is notional when reading the poet's real apprehension. He may change it elsewhere.
August 22 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Suffice it to say that the contradictions apparent in Pater's statements from Newman (contradictions in quotes by Pater Edmund of Newman) finally led me to open his Grammar of Assent, which seems so tedious. Instead of begin at the beginning, I tried finding some distinctions at first in chapter three, but was so confused by the apparent absurdity of distinctions that I read Maritain's introduction. Maritain assures the reader that the book is about Newman's coming to grips with assent to the truths of the Faith and that most interpretations are incorrect. I then proceeded to look at chapter nine to try and figure out what illative sense might mean.
August 22 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger What is clear beyond doubt is that his is a very precisely crafted esoteric work, and I recommend a careful reading of chapter nine on illative sense. Now that I see what he is doing in that chapter the rest will be clearer. The chapter itself really almost stands entirely on its own.
August 22 at 10:51pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger What is strange is that he doesn't really define illative sense (and why I had so much trouble trying to find definitions and distinctions earlier) until the second last page and the last sentence is quite a douzy.
August 22 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger You've been warned. There be dark waters there.
August 22 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If he be Aristotelian, it is in an esoteric sense only. In the chapter alone, he rejects the logic both subtly and (I believe) explicitly. He delineates also a very hard core nominalism (a la Hobbes, wherefore the word "sense")
August 22 at 10:55pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz To be honest it was more the tediousness of the work than any position he took that turned me off from Newman....I read it before going to TAC too....I found it so tedious, I decided to read Aristotle and found him crystal clear in comparison...it gave me a leg up when I later went to TAC...
Mr. Ruplinger has more patience than I to be digging back into the text that much!
August 22 at 10:57pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger No I actually cracked the book several times before and just closed it. I have thought I should probably look at it some time and this was the final motive.
August 22 at 10:58pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger LIS, ch. 9 to me is a bit clearer. I can say a lot about if anyone is interested. I certainly haven't mined everything there, but Newman has a reason for everything he writes. It's just a matter of unraveling all the apparent contradictions and figuring out what he's getting at.
August 22 at 10:59pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I'll can give some whopper quotes. But I'll begin with what illative sense is: "moral instinct" or "happy augury" (or something more deliberative perhaps). That seems to be the ultimate source of illative sense as PRINCIPLES: they are founded upon this "divining". In fact illative sense seems to me to be logic as he denigrates it. HIs last sentence is "And in all these delicate questions there is constant call for the exercise of the Illative Sense." Rereading it one realizes that he is uses Newman's (that is his own specially divined) illative sense in describing aspects (not it's nature) of illative sense at the end of section two. To be PRECISE, Illative Sense seems to be logic, but especially the grasping of our assumptions and how we come by them (only secondarily and in HIS sense, does he refer to demonstration which he restricts to elements of mathematical calculus). His third section is pretty devastating (or it seems merely to tell the truth) to any ability for agreement. All reasoning is profoundly solopsic (or so he says
August 22 at 11:38pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The first section on "Sanction" of illative sense: as it turns out is one's own self. Man is his own sanction, idiosyncratic man, and none else. Thus sanction is the "authority" of one's assumptions. Nothing outside himself. He begins in almost Cartesian fashion. But let the reader decide for himself what Newman says. This section proceeds strangely with several apparent contradictory sentences like “desire to change laws which are identical with myself.” Indeed, it seems that he subtly reasserting Hobbesian nature and right. Again he says of human nature, “it is his gift to be the creator of his own sufficiency; and to be emphatically self-made.” Newman doesn't spare here an idle word, even the first use of “his”.
August 22 at 11:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ...... So how does such a nominalist expect anyone to understand him, especially when Newman by the end of the chapter leads us to despair even of the posibility of communication or at least agreement? It is inconsistent. More over his statement of man being self-made, isn't that another act of illative sense which he derides at the end. Or is the last sentence of the entire chapter what he is using even right here? But he says to confirm that what is certain is what me myself and I say is certain, “there is no ultimate test of truth besides the testimony born to truth BY THE MIND ITSELF”. And I am not misquoting him. These seem to be his main points. MOREOVER, he refers to Bacon as “our own English philosopher” and later refers several ways and defers to him again and again. “Knowledge is power, for it enables us to use eternal principles which we cannot alter.” And then a derisory, as I take it, comment on all matters unBaconian: “materials in due measure of proof and assent” are apposite “abundant matter for mere opinion”. And so I take it that proof and assent are merely idle speculation, as a kind of relaxing recreation if not overindulged in (but in "due measure"). To be clear, all speculation is what he is talking about here.
August 22 at 11:18pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Sections two and three are even more interesting.
August 22 at 11:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Section two (supposedly on the NATURE of Illative Sense), he spends mostly on "parallel" phronesis and briefly fine arts but ends outlining "respects" (or perspective?) on its "nature and its claims:
1. in itself: “one and the same in all concrete matters” ??? obscure to be sure. I really have little idea what he's talking about.
2. in definite subject-matters: some possess it some but not others and in some things but not others (historian vs. philsopher, but earlier he had a number of things to say about his kind of "phronesis")
3. in process: by a method of reasoning. But here “the elementary principle of that mathematical calculus of modern times”. Here he seems to be introducing HIS own illative sense of the ratiocinating aspect. Like Bacon, he would replace traditional logic with the new calculus. But this is never defined by Newman further, and is only mentioned here, whereas much of the rest of the time is spent diriding the blind "Illative Sense" of others it seems.
4. function and scope: there is no “ultimate test of truth and error in our inferences besides the trustworthiness of the Illative Sense that gives them its sanction.” – it is because I assent. The authority of the test is in MY ASSENT and none else
August 22 at 11:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Eric Hutchinson, fyi
August 22 at 11:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Anyways, maybe I'll clean this all up. My notes and outline are considerably long. I'll pm Pater Edmund my observations on his work.
August 22 at 11:42pm · Like
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JA Escalante pm me too please
August 22 at 11:43pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger And don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what Pater Edmund wrote. It's very good.
August 22 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Thank you Joshua for obliging me. Also, thank you, John for your thorough responses. Your position on Newman is now clear to my mind, and the texts you reference are compelling.
August 23 at 2:23am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman And just for anyone who might be outside the TAC community and reading this thread, we should make some things clear:
1. Peregrine Bonaventure is a disgruntled troll, who ought not to be directly addressed. We are not being cruel, but we have all tried to engage him in the past to no good result.
2. He raises good questions, but can't, or won't actually engage in coherent or thoughtful discourse.
3. TAC is one of the few schools in the world that, a.) really is and passes on a 'school of thought, and b.) understands what Sacred Theology is.
4.TAC does not confuse metaphysics and natural theology with sacred theology. Rather, it understands that a thorough understanding of the philosophical disciplines enable the mind to more clearly and cogently consider the truths of the faith.
5. Consequently, as a whole, its alumni do not teach things like "reason enlightens faith." Rather, the school as a whole teaches, together with the Church, that grace perfects nature, and faith perfects reason. However, that does not mean that faith supplants reason. Rather, we must have well developed reason, and then there is, as it were, more nature to be perfected.
My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all.
August 23 at 2:35am · Unlike · 8
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Tom Sundaram There are those who, though misunderstanding something, seek the honest truth about it. Then there are those who, though convinced something is wrong, abide by the higher law of devotion to the truth when they are answered. Finally, there are those who, though unable to understand someone else who seemingly disagrees with them, will at least respect the goodness of their intentions. These three enable discussion.
But there is a fourth sort of person that, assuming the other person is wrong for reasons other than what they say or believe, or even their tone, reasons inaccessible by discussion. To these people attempts to argue are not attempts to discuss, but to foment enmity against an opponent. Scott is such a person on this topic, his only topic, and it is not charity to enable the fomenting of schism by granting it a direct response or entertaining it as a serious discussion. If this thread should persist it is in spite of Scott, not because of him.
August 23 at 4:03am · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram Edit: first sentence, second paragraph: "...inaccessible by discussion, seeks to undermine some 'enemy' point."
August 23 at 4:05am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I agree with Joshua Kenz on the faults of my Newman paper; my linking it here bordered on trolling. All the greater is my admiration for John Ruplinger plowing through the whole thing! I owe you more than a decade, sir; I'm offering Mass for your intentions.
August 23 at 5:22am · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund On the theses volume front (https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...)
I've added a section for proposals for titles for the whole volume. Proposals so far:
Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College
Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College
Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs
docs.google.com
August 23 at 5:53am · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom John Ruplinger PM me too, please.
August 23 at 7:47am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger on the road 7 hours. And a barn dance later. So til tomorrow. And thanks pater
August 23 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia uh oh.... this is dangerously close to petering out
August 23 at 11:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman hmm... Perhaps I should say something controversial.
August 23 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'll go ahead and say that with the exception of junior and (some) senior year, lab at TAC is a waste. It could be structured so much better. But I'm probably one of like three people who actually care about lab
August 23 at 11:20am · Like
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John Ruplinger dont worry. I am holding back on my nuclear option should be good for another 1000 comments
August 23 at 11:36am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger neverendin, baby.
August 23 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Joel HF 'Natural Science,' as it is now called, is quite good the last two years. Sophomore year is important at least, but I had a tutor poorly suited for the class, and I hated it. Freshman year Lab is a dreadful waste of time for all concerned.
August 23 at 11:42am · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF Fabre is overrated. There I said it.
August 23 at 11:41am · Edited · Like · 3
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Liam Collins Dude, I loved Fabre! I found some of those readings to be amongst the most leisurely, wonderful, contemplative readings of the whole four years.
August 23 at 11:46am · Unlike · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Freshman year lab was great! And really helped with giving people experience of the natural world before moving into DeAnima!
August 23 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Freshman lab is Micky Mouse pablum. And we take, what, 12 classes of fabre to demonstrate that insects aren't intelligent? Snore.
August 23 at 11:51am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I'll try to defend Freshman year lab too. If you're going to be (or are) a philosopher, or a natural scientist, or a theologian, or really anything, you need to learn from experience the importance of observation and reality. Then when you read Goethe or Harvey or Lavoisier or articles on wave theory or really anyone at all later on, you know from your own experience that they are basing their theories and work on careful observation. It's the difference between knowing something and KNOWING SOMETHING, just as you can know someone and know your spouse in entirely different ways.
You are not stuck in your head with purely intellectual arguments forever and you see the relation between the "visible things of creation" and the theological treatises you are studying when you are forced to go outside to watch bees and ants or trap horrid beetles. You are thrilled by seeing Rev. Roy Axel Coats pop by your classroom window with a butterfly net and a jar of insects.
You overcome whatever fear of arthropods you might have had and realize that the smallest, ugliest things of this world are part of the divine Dantean dance of love that moves the stars.
Also I know that freshman lab, particularly the understanding of teleology, beginning to see that things act for an end rather than being an arbitrary collection of accidents, was one key part in the beginning of my friend's conversion post-TAC.
August 23 at 12:02pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF That's a beautiful defense, Catherine Ryland. I will say that I would respect the course a lot more if we read Darwin there, instead of relegating him to senior seminar.
August 23 at 12:11pm · Edited · Like · 5
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JA Escalante Catherine Ryland, that might be true of some Platonic Idea of freshman lab; I don't know anyone whose experience was much like that though. And I came to TAC *wanting* that kind of thing (I had a strong background in natural history, and was much influenced by Goethe's approach to natural science)
August 23 at 12:15pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante mostly it was about fumbling with things and staring out the window and the highlight was when some doofus despite all warnings actually did ingnite "Substance D" or whatever that stuff was
August 23 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland My classmates tasted Substance D! (Wasn't that Pater Edmund?) And I think that was soph year.
August 23 at 12:19pm · Edited · Like · 3
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JA Escalante !!!
August 23 at 12:19pm · Like
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JA Escalante talk about "KNOWING SOMETHING"
August 23 at 12:19pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland I think that was the point!
I remember both loving and being bored to tears by Fabre (though not at the same time or in the same respect), and I agree with the idea of perhaps reading even a selection from Darwin freshman year -- it makes sense. But I am still grateful for having to slog through scientific articles (however outdated) like the gull mating article and the infrared snake vision article, since now I can get the gist of some scientific articles without being a trained scientist.
And it was awe-inspiring to catch a living dragonfly and see its huge jewel-like eyes and watch the light and color go out of them completely when it sadly died. You understand substantial change much better (as Lauren points out re:the de Anima) even if you have never seen a person or a larger animal die before.
I remember John Cunningham's astonishingly beautiful living-insect terrarium/bug collection and wishing I hadn't chloroformed or frozen all my bugs. I also remember being really upset when I found my bug partner had bought his quota of bugs from the TAC insect black market.
That whole section of freshman lab was one of the highlights of the four years there.
I would say that somehow that part of the curriculum also helped in understanding or accepting that some things are knowable as first principles.
August 23 at 12:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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JA Escalante I agree, in principle. And honestly TAC should pay you to use these reveries in the Admissions packets
August 23 at 12:47pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante now I'm wondering if Substance D gave Pater Edmund superpowers
August 23 at 12:48pm · Like · 6
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Catherine Ryland Yes! Or perhaps he had brain cells to spare...
I have plenty of things to tell the Admissions office and not all so cheerful. (To their credit, they warned me I needed more math, but I was too sanguine or too stubborn to believe just how much more I needed.) I've often said I'd like to start a PTACSD support group, since I've seen how many severely depressed people come out of there. Can't quite figure out why.
The campus policy "don't date until 2nd semester Junior Year" advice was terrible, and I can't believe I went along with it. What they really needed to say was "just go out to coffee with everyone unless you don't want to. Don't worry about marriage and don't be serious at all at first, and if you'd rather not go out for coffee then don't." Some of us can't seem to figure this out on our own.
I have other criticisms too.
August 23 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Sophomore lab was a huge waste of time. I had AP chemistry in high school, so all the "experiments" in the lab double wide, were just poorly done imitations of what I had already known.
Phlogiston? Really? I'm wasting my time with this? Maybe it should have been called: "The slow painful process of learning the history of Chemistry - to 1800" and that would have been more accurate. Neither of the tutors I had for Fresh/Soph lab were even the slightest bit interested (it seemed).
August 23 at 1:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia because we all know that matter is continuous and infinitely divisible, what's the point of studying "atom" and their discreteness, which is patently false, right? Lab before lunch, Aristotle's Physics with Berquist after lunch.... blah
August 23 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Paul Babcock, what was it you said to Mr Berquist in that lab discussion? "It's not a #!**!@ fiction!!" ?
August 23 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante something like that
August 23 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante (re: atoms)
August 23 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Liam Collins Regarding PTACD, it took me a full year to surf my way back to sanity. (Not to mention going home to a very loving family.) Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for my experience there. But I am intrigued by this too.
August 23 at 1:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Liam, this thread is really good evidence that "surfing your way back to sanity" isn't possible
August 23 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel, they are changing the Lab tutorial now to include more discussion about evolution and Darwin, etc. I think electro-magnetism is all but out. Einstein is going to be moved to Senior Math (where he, apparently, was originally placed).
August 23 at 1:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Mendel was in seminar when I went there. They moved him to freshman lab when I was a junior
August 23 at 1:19pm · Like
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Pater Edmund They need to cut the SJC measurement manual out of the program entirely.
August 23 at 1:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia YES!
and phlogiston
August 23 at 1:20pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland You guys missed the whole point.
August 23 at 1:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman ...I like thinking about measures...
August 23 at 1:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Pater Edmund But Pascal on the weight of the air is awesome.
August 23 at 1:21pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ...and phlogiston.
August 23 at 1:21pm · Like
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Pater Edmund What is the point of the measurement manual Catherine?
August 23 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia F*ck phlogiston
August 23 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland TAC wouldn't be TAC without phlogiston.
August 23 at 1:21pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund I agree with Catherine about the bug collection and Fabre though.
August 23 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia TAC wouldn't be TAC without non-being!?
August 23 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund But I'm against doing Darwin Freshman year because one hasn't done the Physics and the De Anima yet.
August 23 at 1:22pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland This is what I have come to later in life re: measurement. He who measures, wins.
August 23 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I know I wasn't asked, but it seems to me that the question about measurement and what it means and how we know things through measures is a central theme that ran throughout the lab tutorials through the years.
August 23 at 1:23pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland re: Darwin: there's no problem reading it and remembering in the context of what you you learned freshman year.
August 23 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Liam Collins I didn't surf *the web* back to sanity, Beitia!
August 23 at 1:23pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Yes, Daniel, I agree completely.
August 23 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland You can't have scientific inquiry (of a natural sort) without hefty doses of measurement. Look at all the astronomers.
August 23 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Liam, the continuation of the thread is a strong argument that sanity is out the window. It caught fire because of phlogiston, and black bile, and all my messed up humours.
August 23 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland ^^ Oh, but this is the most interesting stuff in the world. (And I haven't even begun my more recent critiques of TAC AND the magisterium.)
August 23 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia waiting for a /sarc
August 23 at 1:26pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I think they should let the Lab program come full circle so that second semester of senior year is Mendel and Darwin and genetics.
August 23 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Yes! I love it.
August 23 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Second semester of Freshman year could be Pascal on weight of air etc.
August 23 at 1:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Nah, they should read Sir James Jeans, or Heisenberg on the philosophy of science
August 23 at 1:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Or Poincare on Science and Method
August 23 at 1:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger heresy petri dish + substance D = ptacd troll . . . AKA . . .
August 23 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund, I think that is the new plan. Or something like that.
August 23 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Could we all just take a moment and go back to that comment where Catherine said that she agreed with me completely?
August 23 at 1:28pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund That way Galilleo could be read second semester of Sophomore year, which would be fitting.
August 23 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Electro magnetism was a big fav of mine, so I'm sad to see it go. I wish they could go all the way and tackle quatuum mechanics.
August 23 at 1:30pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson They just drastically overhauled a semester of senior or junior science - I think senior - to deal specifically with evolution and end with St. Thomas on providence ("regardless, check THIS out at the end"). Sounded like a fantastic set of readings from Darwin on out laying out issues forthrightly. Dr. Kaiser was a big part of it.
August 23 at 1:32pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Just as long as they don't get rid of the light experiments. .
August 23 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also how do you do Einstein without electro magnetism? Einstein is also all about measurement, but unlike freshman measurement manual, reading him is worthwhile.
August 23 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel, I liked electro-magnetism as well. There just isn't enough time.
August 23 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante they dont do Goethe's light experiments, which is a huge fail
August 23 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund They should do Adolf Portmann Freshman year with the Fabre.
August 23 at 1:33pm · Like
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JA Escalante ^absolutely! and Uexkull
August 23 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland If anyone did not get the point of Soph lab you should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Periodic.../dp/188393771X
The Mystery of the Periodic Table (Living History Library)
www.amazon.com
Leads the reader on a delightful and absorbing journey through the ages, on the trail of the elements of the Periodic Table as we know them today. He introduces the young reader to people like Von Helmont, Boyle, Stahl, Priestly, Cavendish, Lavoisier, and many others, all incredibly diverse in pe...
August 23 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Pater I used to push for Portmann. To no avail
August 23 at 1:34pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland I had Berquist too and everyone fell asleep but I thought Soph lab was crucial. Perhaps you could distill it into a shorter form.
You're basically learning the development of the scientific method in a hands-on way.
August 23 at 1:35pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund At Wyoming Catholic College they read Fisher's “Mathematics of a Lady Tasting Tea”; no idea what that is, but it sounds awsome.
August 23 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante also, they need botanical drawing in freshman lab and should hire Domiane to teach it
August 23 at 1:36pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Dr. Kaiser also designed freshman lab, which could easily be done in 1 semester. I'll reserve judgment.
August 23 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland This?
http://gymportalen.dk/.../Projekt9_1...
August 23 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante that looks great! TAC could also easily read Goethe on the nature and kinds of experiment, to great effect
August 23 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Goethe on nature/science is a change I'd actually agree with.
August 23 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I was wiser than I knew when I first said that this was the best FB thread ever.
August 23 at 1:39pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Big Angry Daniel: people would still think about measurement without the torture of the Manual.
August 23 at 1:39pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund It's not "THE GREAT MANUALS method"
August 23 at 1:40pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland I'm against torture.
August 23 at 1:40pm · Like · 5
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JA Escalante HAHAHAHA
August 23 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante well then let's all admit that Euclid could be taught differently.
August 23 at 1:40pm · Like
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JA Escalante just sayin'
August 23 at 1:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland You're supposed to think about precision of measurement vs. accuracy of measurement. The more precise you are, the less accurate you have the potential to be.
August 23 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson BLASPHEMER
August 23 at 1:41pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF And yeah, sophomore lab 2nd semester is the one place we really expirience the scientific method.
August 23 at 1:41pm · Like
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JA Escalante yep I went there
August 23 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund JA: WHAT!?!
August 23 at 1:41pm · Like
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JA Escalante just sayin'
August 23 at 1:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Euclid WAS taught differently. Depending on the tutor...
August 23 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like · 4
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JA Escalante literally LOL
August 23 at 1:42pm · Like
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JA Escalante I had Euclid....Prussian-style. I'll leave it at that
August 23 at 1:42pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I am now firmly on the side of the Syllabus of Errors, which I believe condemns the foul words recently uttered by JA Escalante.
August 23 at 1:43pm · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund In the clerico-fascist empire that I will establish one of these days Calvinists who think that Euclid ought to be taught in any other way than THE WAY, will be burned first.
August 23 at 1:43pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Catherine Ryland Some tutors were much more contemplative and meditative about Euclid than others. Certain tutors I have heard made it through far fewer props than others, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.
August 23 at 1:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^^ You would.
August 23 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Although freedom of conscience of a sort is allowable, persecution of heresy of this kind is necessary for the common good.
We must race to seize power before this heretical Protestant in order to ensure the promulgation of The Truth.
August 23 at 1:44pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF How would you teach Euclid, Escalante?
August 23 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I now I'm going to go pray Compline: sol non occidat super iracundiam vestram.
August 23 at 1:45pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante Matthew this is just Stockholm Syndrome you've got
August 23 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland People who think people should be burned at the stake should be burned at the stake.
August 23 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson They got to me. You discovered wherein they got to me. I too was taken captive by...a German sort of Euclid
August 23 at 1:46pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante ^our experience was identical, as you know
August 23 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante which is why I expect more revolutionary bravery from you on this point
August 23 at 1:47pm · Like
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JA Escalante Pater, for the record, Catherine just expressed a cardinal maxim of my political theology
August 23 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I had Hartmann. It was perfect. I got to teach it
August 23 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante ah, one of TAC's great sins...the exile of Hartmann
August 23 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^my thesis advisor, fwiw
August 23 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante and Joel: I would make it less an exercise in high-pressure rote memorization, and much more one of leisurely construction and contemplation
August 23 at 1:50pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, quit being all ecumenical and asking questions n' stuff.
August 23 at 1:50pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF I didn't memorize a single prop. And I demonstrated them just fine. Rote memorization is not part of the TAC way.
August 23 at 1:51pm · Unlike · 4
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JA Escalante "no true Scotsman"
August 23 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia neither did I. Learn the method of Euclid and follow it (For the record many of my demonstrations were not exactly the same as Euclids)
August 23 at 1:52pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I didn't learn to demonstrate props until Apollonius. It was then that I realized that it was not about memorization.
August 23 at 1:53pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante it certainly shouldn't be
August 23 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia When assisting, Socratically, someone stuck at the board, I would always ask "what do you know" what have we learned before, most people can figure it out without too much help
August 23 at 1:54pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Michael Beitia, I too often discovered variations at the board.
August 23 at 1:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the first prop I demonstrated started a Sh*tstorm because I used different letters than the text. I used "hotdog" "smiley face" and "x" after that.
August 23 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF JA Escalante don't you mean "no true Prussian woman?"
August 23 at 1:55pm · Edited · Like · 4
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JA Escalante maybe
August 23 at 1:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia But I rarely was allowed to demonstrate anything
August 23 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel, you were by no means the measure or exemplar for how a typical person should do props. As I recall, Joel, you would often first study props in the minutes before class sophomore year, and then go to the board and demonstrate them marvelously, though often with variation. It was watching you that cued me into the fact that I was doing things wrongly.
August 23 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Peter Fry would do that too. So amazing and depressing.
August 23 at 1:58pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Only he wouldn't study them at all.
August 23 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante I mostly just knocked the table with my knee so the spun bottle would point at some other wretch
August 23 at 1:58pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland He would just read the first line and demonstrate them his own way.
August 23 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Apropos of nothing. If one is looking for a deal:
http://www.foxnews.com/.../21/5-best-value-rye-whiskies/...
5 best value rye whiskies
www.foxnews.com
From rich chocolate cake to a peppermint-topped concoction, you’re sure to find something to satisfy your sweet tooth this season.
August 23 at 1:59pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Peter Fry mathematical ability >>>>my mathematical ability
August 23 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I can personally recommend Whistle Pig.
August 23 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman our sophomore section was so insanely good. I learned more that year in section than any other year.
August 23 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman True. True. As did, I.
August 23 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Suddenly I miss TAC.
August 23 at 2:04pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland Stockholm Syndrome for sure.
August 23 at 2:04pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Bwahaha!
August 23 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Seriously, I would like to have some kind of TAC Anonymous group to help undergrads know things like How to recognize the symptoms of depression and what to do about them. What to do when you don't want to look at another book for at least a year. What to do when encountering Thomists of a non-Lavalian stripe. (That last is a joke, but I think depression is very common. It could be that people of a melancholic bile tend to gravitate toward TAC.)
August 23 at 2:12pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson JA Escalante - sat right next the corner too, trying to minimize the potential angle of doom.
August 23 at 2:12pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF TAC depression is very common. Is it the isolation? Is it the pressure of never getting away from the coursework? It is an odd, but very real, phenomena.
August 23 at 2:13pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Not quite sure why.
August 23 at 2:14pm · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante I think it's the Brigadoon sense of the college. It's an intense experience, geographically isolated, and with too much of an unspoken assumption that there really isn't much truth or fellowship in seeking truth to be found outside its walls. Leaving is bound be depressing in that case
August 23 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante though honestly I was elated to bolt to Berkeley after sophomore year
August 23 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Which is absolutely untrue, that there isn't much truth or fellowship "outside".
August 23 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF It wasn't the leaving that depressed me!
August 23 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante indeed. I wasn't one to fall for TAC superstitions, but even my mind was blown when I met grad students at Cal and they turned out to be just as sharp and readerly as TAC friends
August 23 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Me either, I was thrilled to graduate, though I enjoyed being there too, in a mixed way (like everything is mixed).
August 23 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I heard a great quote about grad school the other day "where you forgo current income to forgo future income..."
August 23 at 2:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF I burnt out senior year, and was glad to get going, though sad to leave friends. Though as Daniel Lendman says, I was hardly a model or exemplar student.
August 23 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I meant that in the best possible way, Joel!!!
August 23 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland We need to have mini-TAC seminars all over the country (well world, really). With brunch and whiskey. I have Stockholm Syndrome too.
August 23 at 2:25pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF
August 23 at 2:26pm · Like
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JA Escalante Catherine the Johnnies do that; it always struck me as odd that TACers don't. But I think that's partly because of the TAC myth that the experience can't happen outside its walls
August 23 at 2:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland That's funny, I didn't run into that particular brand of TACism.
August 23 at 2:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante it was rampant when I was there...if you talked to faculty about grad school, they would start by shrugging and sighing with a sort of despair
August 23 at 2:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Ryland: https://docs.google.com/.../1xBzrZlfGzxi5e4vjhulzIZL.../edit
Education Without Credentials - Google Docs
docs.google.com
August 23 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I can imagine one thing -- you certainly can't recreate the experience of having four years to discuss everything. If you have brunch or a weekend, it ends too soon and that can be a little dampening.
August 23 at 2:32pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Matthew, that sounds wonderful.
August 23 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Many programs do something similar. I've given up hope on TAC per se (they should do what George does via the James Madison program in cities across the country with Princeton alumni for sheer fundraising proposes alone) but I think there is a lot of room in this space - as many people are starving for something like this - and not just TACers.
By doing it regularly - like going to a gym or club - one can satisfy the appetites over time.
Examples abound, from Clubs in English mining towns to the lyceums in Lincoln's America.
There is no reason we can't do this.
August 23 at 2:36pm · Like · 4
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Henry Zepeda I'm a bit late on the topic of measurement, but one thing that would help Freshman Lab and Sophomore math would be to have a some observations of the basic motions of the heavens over a few months. The bit of observation we did at the beginning of Sophomore year was a joke. It's a good chance to think about how measuring works and it would make astronomy a lot more imaginable for a lot of students--perhaps it could even ensure that there would be no future debacle's like the Great Kolbeck Ptolemy Final Massacre of 2003.
August 23 at 2:37pm · Like · 6
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Domiane Forte JA Escalante: I'm visiting WCC right now, dreaming about applying for position and moving to Lander to develop just that kind of artistic/naturalist program.
August 23 at 2:39pm · Like · 5
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JA Escalante What Henry Zepeda said
August 23 at 2:40pm · Like · 3
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Henry Zepeda I think St. Mary's Integral Program does a bit better with the observational side of astronomy, but I'm not quite sure what they do. Joe Zepeda, do you guys have astronomical observations as part of Freshman year lab/science?
August 23 at 2:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Henry Zepeda don't most students get that anyways while drinking heavily in the wood? It might be a bit redundant.
August 23 at 2:46pm · Edited · Like · 4
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JA Escalante but the stars are spinning unnaturally in that circumstance
August 23 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Henry Zepeda ??
August 23 at 2:48pm · Like
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JA Escalante in the circumstance Joel mentions
August 23 at 2:48pm · Like
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Henry Zepeda In what circumstance?
August 23 at 2:48pm · Like
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Henry Zepeda The neverending threat moves too fast for me!
August 23 at 2:49pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante "drinking heavily in the woods"
August 23 at 2:49pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson ^first chapter of my autobiography
August 23 at 3:08pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman Has this thread won the Internet yet?
August 23 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante "In the beginning of life, in a dark wood drinking heavily...."
August 23 at 3:23pm · Like · 4
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Thomas Hall I feel so privileged to have played a small role in this. Do all of us get a check or something?
August 23 at 3:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger yeah. I believe peregrine gave your name a check on his list of suspected heretics.
August 23 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall *Suspected*? That's all? I have failed.
August 23 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i am on the soon to be burned. So idk.
August 23 at 3:33pm · Like · 3
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Thomas Hall When they burn me I hope they use cedar. I love the smell of cedar.
August 23 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger all right. I need to stop being mean. Unjust excommunication has no merit this way.
August 23 at 3:44pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology. If you try to plant these seeds across the nation, you will get major blow back from sacred theology.
August 23 at 5:43pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Just one, but it takes a very long time. You have to wait till senior year, then the student can just hold the light bulb over his head, while the entire Cosmos revolves around him.
August 23 at 5:50pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure How many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?
August 23 at 5:51pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland How many?
August 23 at 5:59pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure How many Christendom students does it take to change a lightbulb?
Lightbulbs?! Wa-choo looking at our lightbulbs for? Our lightbulbs are just fine... we like 'em just the way they are, thank you very much... now why don't you just go back to where you came from.
August 23 at 6:10pm · Edited · Like
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Emily Norppa Also: How many TACers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It depends.
August 23 at 7:07pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland "TAC exhaustion and depression comes from lack of sacred theology." That's funny, I have a (non-TAC) friend who thinks that TAC depression comes from the overabundance of dogmatic and doctrinaire theology found there.
August 23 at 7:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Interesting statement from St. Thomas Aquinas against the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Relying on Aristotle's anotion of ensoulment, Thomas asserts: “If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ..” Thomas maintained: “The Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed from it before her birth from the womb” (III, 27, 2, ad2).
In the 14th C, the Franciscans opposed the Dominicans by supporting the Immaculata. At the Council of Basil, the Church declared that Mary was not included in the doctrine on original sin.
August 23 at 7:34pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Because of St. Thomas, and his Aristotelean view of the human soul -- which contended that ensoulment takes place after conception, and only a rational being could be preserved from sin -- the Dominicans were the last hold out within the Church in support of the Immaculate Conception.
In the 19th Century, Pope Pius IX, with support from a vast majority of bishops, and shortly after the vision of the Miraculous Medal which reads "O Mary, conceived without sin..." the Church promulgated the infallible doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology.
August 23 at 7:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland "I think this shows the need for assent in sacred theology." No problem there.
August 23 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Also, how many Christendom students does it take to change a light bulb?
A: That's not really the right question to ask. Chirstendom students aren't allowed to do anything until the Magisterium tells them it's ok, and that can take centuries.
August 23 at 7:39pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine, "doctrinaire theology" I think is what Liberals say. It is baseless. They see it as dead and lifeless. Indeed, there version of it is. But in the true sense, we are just talking about first principles, when we talk about dogmas, and assent to first principles by faith, not because they are self-evident to the reason, but by grace and assenr. We depart from first principles as we launch into theological inquiry, in the same way that medieval science departs from self evident first principles. Or we can arrive at dogma, through an examination of the theological debate which led to the dogma. The Immaculate Conception for example. I do not see how anyone could see this is doctrinaire or anything other than animated and life+giving.
August 23 at 7:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Perescott, you still haven't defined what YOU mean by sacred theology
August 23 at 7:45pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Q: How many TAC students does it take to change a light bulb? I really need to know.
A: Don't worry, it all becomes clear for you senior year.
August 23 at 7:56pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure B'tia, do you really want a definition? Or are you just asking? Pearls before swine and all... I can give you a definition that would melt your soul and help you slay dragons, but you've really got to want it..
August 23 at 7:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland It does! You know everything there is to know in the whole universe by senior year.
August 23 at 7:59pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia I've only been asking you for IDK 2.5 YEARS to define what the hell you're talking about, Scottegrine....
August 23 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia maybe less, I exaggerate
August 23 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler Liam Collins- I'm guessing your dad is Sean? I just want to say that senior lab with him was unforgettable. One of my all time favorites- he is just so perfectly suited to that kind of thing. I don't know what they're changing from that class, but it would be a shame if they keep Faerie Queen but change senior lab. I'll always remember the class where your dad asked what it means to say "at the same time" and I quickly gave what I considered to be a good explanation, and he kept picking it apart and then I realized that I couldn't really define it. It was like the time in junior theology when Kolbeck said he fell out of his chair the first time he realized that, since God's essence & existence are one and the same (I'm paraphrasing quite a bit here), then when we have the beatific vision, God is literally dwelling in our minds.... it's moments like that that I like to relive when I think back to my Arcadia.
August 23 at 8:15pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I had Sean Collins for senior lab as well. Excellent man for the job
August 23 at 8:16pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne That's inaccurate. It's junior year.
August 23 at 8:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I knew everything by sophomore year
August 23 at 8:17pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne Precocious.
August 23 at 8:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was one wise fool
August 23 at 8:18pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Such madness... and schadenfreude...
August 23 at 8:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Okay, are you ready for a definition of sacred theology, a definition to set the world on fire?
I deliver a promise to not overpromise and underdeliver.
August 23 at 8:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Right now, everything is happening at the same time. Just a thought. I digress...
August 23 at 9:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I always through that junior and senior math and science needed major revision. But I also had Mrs. Gustin for senior math, which was a disaster (that may not have been the case had it been just a few years before)
What is covered freshman and sophomore year was okay. But there is a reason Fabre is often sold to homeschoolers....a fun text maybe through middle school. Of course you cannot presume that freshman would have covered such basic things, but I still think of sophmore and freshman year as remedial, and the important aspects able to be accomplished much more quickly.
Senior year needed more order. And more competent tutors. Ours for science was actually good. The same cannot be said of say junior mathematics. Frankly after having what sadly devolved to a shouting match with the tutor over what dx/dy meant, I was bemused the next morning to overhear Dr. Ferrier repeating to my tutor the exact same points I made...even if one competently, you end with what is in some aspects less than HS calculus. And you only can hope to get infinitesimal calculus down. Which is woefully way behind. You never even hear epsilon, delta.
And we do a terrible disservice to non-Euclidean geometry, e.g. the hyperbolic geometry of Lobachevsky....heck how many students, in all foolishness tried proving the 5th postulate? Or squaring the circle, or giving a Euclidean trisection of the angle? All of which things are not simple unproved, but proved to be impossible. Heck many students didn't understand what was even meant by "Euclidean" when one said there was no way of trisecting the angle with "Euclidean geometry"
But frankly I liked Freshman and Sophomore year math. It could be improved, yes. But I found no major fault with it. The sort of things raised later, such as incorrect proofs given by Euclid that moderns have found I don't mind being ignored (partially because many of them may not be incorrect, e.g. book I prop I is listed as a faulty proof by moderns, because it assumes without proof that the two circles intersect....but that really goes to an argument over the nature of mathematics...and not a new one. Proclus gave that as an example of an error of Euclid.)
August 23 at 9:13pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Hmm. . . I had Molly before the decline... and the order was well done. But I had her for both junior and senior math, so I can't speak to any other tutor with deficient knowledge of the subject.
I loved non-Euclidean geometry, but wish we would have read Gauss instead. Or maybe Georg Cantor... after Molly's decline it seems like there isn't much left of that tutorial
August 23 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Does anyone else think a whole semester on the Politics is unnecessary? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
August 23 at 9:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Possibly, but please don't even think about taking time away from the Ethics.
August 23 at 9:49pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Definition of Sacred Theology:
A preamble...
Let's define sacred theology. Let us give it a definition, in the same way that the lesser sciences have a definition; in the same way that natural theology (metaphysics) or geometry have been given a definitions. And what is a definition but a central truth? and how important truth is to knowledge! for, just as in the lesser sciences, an error is something that is not true, it is a falsehood, or an error in definition. But in sacred theology, which deals with higher things, what is an error in definition but a heresy? So let us define sacred theology in such a way as to ensure that every curriculum can adopt it easily, so that it helps the student begin at the right place and proceed in the right direction.
August 23 at 9:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about genus and difference? Can you do that?
August 23 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Okay, how about a cease-fire at least until the initial proposed definition is made? I for one am interested.
August 23 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Claire Keeler Not to be picky, Nina, but it's Bueller! As in Ferris Bueller!
August 23 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele haha i had a classmate in highschool who spelled it that way... sorry... fixed it!
August 23 at 10:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne "To do theology - as the Magisterium understands theology - it is not sufficient merely to calculate how much religion can reasonably be expected of man and to utilize bits and pieces of the Christian tradition accordingly. Theology is born when the arbitrary judgment of reason encounters a limit, in that we discover something which we have not excogitated ourselves but which has been revealed to us."
- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, The Nature and Mission of Theology
August 23 at 10:25pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Nina Rachele - I think a semester on the politics and ethics is more than needed - it is vital. The problem is the way it is treated.
August 23 at 10:35pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele the way it is treated? you mean, the method, or the attitudes toward it of students or tutors?
August 23 at 10:37pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I do believe in a full semester on the ethics.
August 23 at 10:38pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Attitudes and the framework within which it is set. Definitely should be seen as vital - more related, in fact, to life as lived by most graduates ever after than much of what student think they value more.
How many people have gone into philosophy to study the "higher things" and fizzled out? Heh. I know a lot of peeps with a Masters in Metaphysics.
But we all live with politics.
August 23 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele That's one reason why I think it should be read in seminar, along with the other works of political science. Preferrably in its entirety, before we read Hobbes, for example.
August 23 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele *er, I guess the hidden premise in that statement is that I always thought of seminar (for the most part) as the class where we *were* trying to connect to life lived outside and after TAC.
August 24 at 12:19am · Like
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Shannon Williams ...and, you know, to feelings.
August 24 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Shannon Williams (I think I kind of thought of it that way too)
August 24 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Peter Halpin I'm blocking this undead mess of a thread.
August 24 at 1:07am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, be careful about engaging the troll.
August 24 at 7:13am · Like
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Catherine Ryland I am in fact interested in the magisterium topic because I've been struggling with my own difficulties (not because I am a TACer for sure -- on the contrary) to accept what it is and what kind of sway it really ought to have over intellectual inquiry, primarily because I was discussing it with someone over a certain period of time.
My friend pointed out something I heard several times but haven't actually paid attention to: When a tutor takes the oath of fidelity, he or she says "... I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."
This is clearly not talking about ex cathedra statements, because intention and pronouncement in a certain formula is clearly required for infallible statements. How is something part of the magisterium when the pope/bishops do not even intend it to be definitive? What does the above section of the oath even mean?
August 24 at 8:23am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland It's hard for me to understand how we can have actual intellectual inquiry if we have already decided to submit our minds to things not intended to be taught definitively by very fallible people (i.e. the pope and the college of bishops not making formulaically infallible statements).
August 24 at 8:28am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland I understand not all tutors must take this oath (I suspect the non-Catholic faculty would not), but the wording of the oath sounds misguided. http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/catholic-life/oath-fidelity
Oath of Fidelity | Thomas Aquinas College
www.thomasaquinas.edu
In keeping with the College’s commitment to remain faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and in accordance with canon law, members of the Thomas Aquinas College faculty take the Oath of Fidelity and make the Profession of Faith, printed below:
August 24 at 8:31am · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund The CDF in its commentary on that paragraph states: «To this paragraph belong all those teachings – on faith and morals – presented as true or at least as sure, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgement or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.18 They are set forth in order to arrive at a deeper understanding of revelation, or to recall the conformity of a teaching with the truths of faith, or lastly to warn against ideas incompatible with those truths or against dangerous opinions that can lead to error. A proposition contrary to these doctrines can be qualified as erroneous or, in the case of teachings of the prudential order, as rash or dangerous and therefore 'tuto doceri non potest'.» http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998...
August 24 at 8:36am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Even when they do not speak definitively the successors of the Apostles are authentic "witnesses to divine and Catholic truth," and "speak in the name of Christ" (Lumen Gentium 25), "The one who hears you hears me." (Luke 10:16).
August 24 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And what if they contradict prior teaching? Especially when it is held by a majority of theologians as infallible. The very basis is a document whose authority is not de fide.
August 24 at 9:55am · Like
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Pater Edmund Who is the judge of whether they contradict prior teaching?
August 24 at 9:58am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger yeah. It silences discussion of the most urgent questions. Why not the oath against modernism? Are we not to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current magesterial "teachings"?
August 24 at 9:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater, what is to be held de fide by the faithful? That is the question.
August 24 at 10:01am · Like
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John Ruplinger One of the very terms in that CDF explanation is comdemned. What does "deeper understanding" mean. An ambiguous law is not binding.
August 24 at 10:10am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund We are to discuss Pascendi as it relates to current teaching. Of course. Hermeneutic of continuity.
August 24 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Again read carefully the Hermeneutic of continuity instruction. Can you define the terms used unambiguously? Can a submission of Faith be required of non-infallible statesments which seem to contradict prior more authoratative teaching AND all discussion of those apparent contradictions be forbidden?
August 24 at 10:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger Do you see my frustration?
August 24 at 10:20am · Like
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Pater Edmund Obviously it is necessary to discuss apparent contradictions. Especially apparent contradictions between teachings that require submission of faith (Unam Sanctam for instance) and those that require merely religious submission of will and intellect.
August 24 at 10:21am · Like
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John Ruplinger then we agree
August 24 at 10:30am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick How many discussions do we have going on here at the same time?
August 24 at 10:30am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger distinguish: religious submission vs. assent of faith
August 24 at 10:32am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund
August 24 at 10:33am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger cant see that... off to mass
August 24 at 10:35am · Like
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Pater Edmund The picture was for Lauren Ogrodnick.
August 24 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund But John Ruplinger, assent of faith is strictly speaking only given to truths contained in the deposit of faith, but religious submission can be given to truths in some way connected to that deposit, or to prudential decisions of the rulers of the Church, the successors of the Apostles.
August 24 at 10:38am · Edited · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund The former is an act of the supernatural virtue of faith, the later is an act of the virtue of religion, a part of the virtue of justice.
August 24 at 10:39am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger This relates to Catherine's question as well as Newman and development of doctrine and magesterium and theology at tac and how to teach. When it ends it will be clear.
August 24 at 10:40am · Like
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Pater Edmund It will never end.
August 24 at 10:40am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund ^That is not strictly true.
August 24 at 10:40am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger wherefore i winked
August 24 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and when the one contradicts the other, what then? (And i see the hermeunetic of continuity as keeping open wide the door to private interpretation of dogma)
August 24 at 10:44am · Like
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John Ruplinger of course fb could continue in heaven and thus it be strictly true too.
August 24 at 10:45am · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund The living teaching office of the Church, especially that of the Supreme Pontiff, is the final judge when there is a dispute about seeming contradictions.
August 24 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger but has he so judged?
August 24 at 10:56am · Like
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Pater Edmund "The talk was a series of assertions and interjections. Ambrose lived in and for conversation; he rejoiced in the whole intricate art of it - the timing and striking the proper juxtaposition of narrative and comment, the bursts of spontaneous parody, the allusion one would recognize and one would not, the changes of alliance, the betrayals, the diplomatic revolutions, the waxing and waning of dictatorships that could happen in an hour's session about a table. But could it happen? Was that, too, most exquisite and exacting of the arts, part of the buried world of Diaghilev?" (E. Waugh)
August 24 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund About what?
August 24 at 10:56am · Like
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Pater Edmund Don't you have to go to Mass?
August 24 at 10:56am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger the disputes are not aired or hardly breathed.
August 24 at 10:57am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred Theology:
A short definition.
Sacred theology is the science pertaining to all supernatural truths revealed by God to man in the sacred deposit of the Faith, under the authority of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in Her extraordinary and ordinary capacities. It is distinct from natural theology (metaphysics) whose object is Being, and God, and which proceeds by reason.
The longer definition of Sacred Theology will be given before Peterson's fb page turns into a pumpkin.
August 24 at 11:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Now I see where you go wrong.
August 24 at 12:40pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est duplex. Una, in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum scientiae, sed tamquam principia subiecti, et talis est theologia, quam philosophi prosequuntur, quae alio nomine metaphysica dicitur. Alia vero, quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est theologia, quae in sacra Scriptura traditur.
Utraque autem est de his quae sunt separata a materia et motu secundum esse, sed diversimode, secundum quod dupliciter potest esse aliquid a materia et motu separatum secundum esse. Uno modo sic, quod de ratione ipsius rei, quae separata dicitur, sit quod nullo modo in materia et motu esse possit, sicut Deus et Angeli dicuntur a materia et motu separati. Alio modo sic, quod non sit de ratione eius quod sit in materia et motu, sed possit esse sine materia et motu, quamvis quandoque inveniatur in materia et motu. Et sic ens et substantia et potentia et actus sunt separata a materia et motu, quia secundum esse a materia et motu non dependent, sicut mathematica dependebant, quae numquam nisi in materia esse possunt, quamvis sine materia sensibili possint intelligi.
Theologia ergo philosophica determinat de separatis secundo modo sicut de subiectis, de separatis autem primo modo sicut de principiis subiecti. Theologia vero sacrae Scripturae tractat de separatis primo modo sicut de subiectis, quamvis in ea tractentur aliqua quae sunt in materia et motu, secundum quod requirit rerum divinarum manifestatio.
Super Boethium De Trinitate, Q. 5, a. 4, Resp.
August 24 at 12:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I dont believe i make a mistake in this regard. Can you be specific? Or is this to Peregrine? I dont think I have denied the distinction though i perhaps i mistake the full scope of metaphysics.
August 24 at 1:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't think that response was addressed to you
August 24 at 1:41pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, you last asked, I believe, what things have not been judged by the pope. I must respond that in recent years, no matters of undisputed contraversies have been decided. As such, it seems we are required to hold with religious assent those that the Church has always taught or those held before. The very doctrine of whether or how doctrine can change is at issue.
Let me ask this instead. To renounce matters that demand the assent of Faith, is to renounce one's Faith. Shall I then renounce my Faith, to submit to matters that require religious submission? Moreover, am I not extended some sympathy, especially in light of Dignitatis Humanae? Does Nostra Aetate only assume good will in heretics, Jews, Muslims and even unbelievers, but none in Catholics who in no way reject the Faith? Or shall Ecumenism embrace all the former with open arms but her own faithful for “errors” unexplained have only derision and scorn? Again, the hermeneutic of continuity slams the door on any inquiry that merely happens to find discontinuity, but this is a sly and underhanded trick and I call foul. Why? Because if some of the present teachings that require mere religious assent contradict some teaching that requires by Faith (and to keep the Faith) assent of Faith, isn't it a false reasoning that only tries to “correct” the constant teaching by making it conform by hermeneutical trick to the “new” teaching?
To phrase it another way the hermeneutic of continuity demands that there be no objection: indeed it nods in favor to new teaching over established teaching making the latter conform to the former. In another way I read it as the pope saying, “Continuity, let there be continuity, there will be continuity.” As to scholastic objections, the reponse: “non disputandum est.” And actions bear this out. For Gheradini took decades before he mildly voiced his well scientificly reasoned (scholastically speaking) argument. He produced no rash judgements (of what I've read). He merely introduced questions. And yet the house that published his work in English is now SHUT DOWN. Unbelievable. Non disputandum est. And how can you or anyone know what are the contraversies or objections if they can't be voiced but AS YOU DID, merely say “hermeunetic of continuity” and discussion be damned? But you sacrifice Faith to current fad.
And as to the instruction, I'll focus on one point only. It is ambiguous. What is the hermeneutic? Is it “of reform” or “of renewal”. By making these terms apposite, the pope has nullified his own directive. For is it reform? Or is it something new? What does he mean by reform? What Pius X meant? Again, an ambiguous law is not binding. So even it were ever right to correct irreformable dogma to make it continuous with novelty, the very decree that mandates this is null for its ambiguity (and that on only one point, for other terms too are ambiguous).
Anyways, something while I work on Newman.
August 24 at 2:16pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, that was not addressed to you.
August 24 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Sorry, I kinda guessed, but as you know I can't see Peregrine. Ironic, that invisibility was the only reason I entered this thread, and now I can't get out
August 24 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, your last comment has made me laugh.
August 24 at 2:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Also, your thoughts about the hermeneutic of continuity are very interesting.
August 24 at 2:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have two thoughts:
1. It seems to me that the assent of faith does not give way to religious assent. (Here I think of Joan of Arc)
2. It seems that the hermeneutic of continuity, in order to be authentically employed, cannot "nod in favor of new teaching over established teaching. Rather, it must see how there is a concord, and reconcile both according to the authority of said teachings.
August 24 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, that last comment is addressed to you.
August 24 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there is no escape. But Youknowwho distinguished "Sacred Theology" from metaphysics (natural theology to him) insofar as natural theology proceeds by reason. So I suppose Sacred theology is unreasonable.
All clear here
August 24 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Firstly, I don't imply that Pope Benedict played an underhanded trick. It is merely the effect of the words logically and concretely (as Newman might say).
August 24 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But Daniel Lendman:
As to the first, she was never asked to deny an article of Faith and so it does not apply. As to the second, the problem is that it elevates any statement to level of infallible doctrine. There is NO WAY to question it.
August 24 at 2:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Additionally, he falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a subject. This mad clear to me a great number of his problems. Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and theology. This is why he makes such a big deal about "assent to the fulness of faith." Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of faith, but we don't need to make such a strong distinction there. We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal objects. Sacred Theology alone treats of God directly. This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Theology. Even the preambles; even the stuff that can be known by reason! Why? Because it is proceeding according to a higher light, and starting with God as its formal object.
August 24 at 2:43pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Are objections to be tossed with the scholastic method as well? (continuing my previous post)
August 24 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think you make a good point with regards to the second. I have seen this with VII. There is a tendency, because there are so few/no formal definitions in Vatican II documents to assume that every thing and every word is infallible.
August 24 at 2:37pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Is it not ironic that we can question former teachings of the Chruch under the "doctrine" of development, but we are barred from questioning any current statements (and how current? today's? fifty years ago?) under religious submission? The only ground for criticizing current teaching (or the best I should say) is prior teaching; thus the grounds for valid criticism have been undercut.
August 24 at 2:41pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Thus while criticizing those who treat Vatican II like superdogma, Benedict also elevated the same to level of infallibility, not per se, but because they cannot be criticized on account of "religious submission" of LG and the requirement of heremeneutic of (reform, of renewal in) continuity.
August 24 at 2:46pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia hence the nostalgia for one page encyclicals.....
August 24 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Yet another riddle: almost every peritus (including Ratzinger) has at some time declared discontinuity or even rupture (either triumphantly or with remorse)
August 24 at 3:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger why can't we throw Unum Sanctam and Nostra Aetate in a ring and watchem duke it out?
August 24 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Youknowwho called me a heretic for quoting Unum Sanctam and taking it seriously. But I guess that's what I get for sticking to the wrong Magisterium. I'm supposed to follow the ordinary, I guess, not the one that defines and proclaims......
August 24 at 3:05pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger or one Matthew might like : Libertas vs. DH. [I'll bet it all on the former btw ]
August 24 at 3:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I dunno. Seems like VII is treated as superdogma by almost no one.
August 24 at 3:15pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Sweet, someone mentioned Joan of Arc. I was also thinking of her. Daniel , you are on a roll!
August 24 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (Though I still recommend kindness to people (including "trolls"), even if they are unkind back to you.)
August 24 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but can any one say what it means? authoratatively? If we changed this thread to "will the real vii stand up", we could guarantee its unendingness. (Matthew)
August 24 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Isn't that the problem though -- not even the magisterium knows what the magisterium actually includes?
August 24 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger or means. . .
August 24 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Catherine Ryland,4 before the Second Renaissance of the never-ending thread (inaugurated largely by your return) I posted this with regards to the troll. You may not have seen it.
"My final direct address to Scott: I do apologize for losing my temper with you above. I do sincerely hope that you have friends and family that you can communicate with in a loving and mutually benefiting way. Your questions are good. your reasoning is poor. You ought not to insult women. That is all."
August 24 at 3:33pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I just don't see many saying or acting as if VII was superdogma.
I do see a lot of people on this thread making superdogma out of a tiny fraction of other councils and Papal pronouncements ripped out of context to suit their own present purposes, however.
August 24 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Matthew , I wish I grew up in your world! Vatican 2 was all I heard of growing up and even the Baltimore catechism was thrown out for being outdated. Then again it's usually treated as "super dogma" without actually being understood or sometimes even read.
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, I also encounter a lot of V2 as Superdogma.
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Matthew J. Peterson That's not superdogma - that's simply finding an excuse for licentiousness.
Those people don't believe in such a thing as dogma, and that is not the fault of VII.
The original sin of traddies everywhere is blaming the sudden use of VII as VII's fault. Whatever it's faults, if the Church was not already as it was no one would have been for the liturgical changes that it obviously did not force on anyone - and the masses would have used VII against its abusers. Let's not pretend they did so.
In any event, it's not superdogma - most of the people you are complaining about have read less of VII than you. They aren't even very familiar with it, and they don't truly hold to it.
August 24 at 3:42pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But their use of VII is similar to the select use of certain Papal pronouncements and encyclicals and councils on the other extreme, I suppose.
In both cases we know the obvious black and white position of the Church via a few mantras ripped out of context to fit the personality and predilections of the proponent in contemporary life.
August 24 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau You can tell when this thread will be resuscitated -- when you get notification that someone is 'liking' your posts from 2 days ago...
August 24 at 3:48pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger no the problems surely predate vii. And how can i bring up all the docs of the prior hundred years. Lots more than a couple docs. One could point to entire corpora of some popes.
August 24 at 3:49pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure DEFINITION OF SACRED THEOLOGY:
CRITIQUE OF THOMAS AQUINAS COLLEGE
Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma.
In Catholic liberal education, sacred theology is the highest science. It begins with Wisdom. Wisdom is a supernatural virtue, that makes the soul responsive to assent to divine truths. In Catholic liberal education, Wisdom does not have a double meaning: Wisdom is not also defined as the end of natural theology or metaphysics. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord, which is an assent to revelation and the deposit of the Faith. It is those things which are not revealed by flesh and blood, but by “my Father in heaven.” (Matthew 16).
However, in its Charter, Thomas Aquinas College has mis-defined Wisdom, but stating that it comes through study of the great masters. It even falsely claims that papal encyclicals have asserted that wisdom comes at the end study of the Masters, rather from the beginning of the fear of the Lord, where it says that “papal encyclicals made it plain that the perennial wisdom was to be studied through the works of the great masters…”
Indeed, Thomas Aquinas College seems to admit that its version of Wisdom is incomplete when it says in its charter that “metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology.”
However, metaphysics is not necessary for the full development of sacred theology. But assent to divine revelation is, and this is what is missing in the curriculum at Thomas Aquinas College.
In fact, the few doctrines that Thomas Aquinas College teach in its curriculum are rarely, if ever, demonstrative of the role of theological Wisdom and the Magisterium in the development of the doctrine.
As a matter of Faith, sacred theology is supported by numerous infallible teachings of the Church, including:
That man has the gift of the sacred science by infusion of grace; that this grace is infused in man prior to an act of free will; that the vision of God transcends natural cognition; that even God’s existence is an object of supernatural faith, not merely reason; and that it is impossible without grace to study the faith and come to the correct conclusions.
It is wholly inadequate for a Catholic college to exclude sacred theology from its curriculum, especially when it proposes to be the completion of liberal education.
Yet Thomas Aquinas College imposes its version of natural theology into the place of sacred theology when it makes its unfounded claim that “theology completes and perfects the intellectual life of a free man.” In proper context, the charter of the college is speaking of metaphysics when it uses the word “theology” in the preceding quote. It claims then that this type of Catholic education presents “liberal education in its fullness.”
This is a false claim; for by its own admission the college admits that it does not present theology in its fullness; while again falsely claiming that its version of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of the study of sacred theology. Both of these claims are false. For sacred theology begins with assent to divinely revealed principles revealed by grace and imparted by Wisdom.
August 24 at 3:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The more one reads, the more the contrast appears. And the more clear the underlying problems.
August 24 at 3:53pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We finally have a definition on the table.
August 24 at 3:54pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure In short, TAC says in its charter that its curriculum and presentation of metaphysics is necessary for the completion of theology as a science. In fact, the Church, infallibly, states the exact opposite.
August 24 at 3:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Moreover, Matthew, your barb misses the mark. I dont think i have quoted one text. Pascendi, i have refered to most and as a whole, but that and the oath as well as its promulgation and Lamentabile Sana are not like others. Their roar still reechoes and the mere mention causes sneers or knees to quake. Not your typical papal decree of the last 500 years. EDIT: no quote of a pre vii text.
August 24 at 4:04pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia for those John) who can't see it:
"Sacred theology is the study of divine revelation. It is more than the study of God. It is the study of what God is saying to man. Sacred theology proceeds as a science, from principles first and better known, to new knowledge, through study of its first principles, and in light of Sacred Tradition and the Sacraments of the Faith, and in the development of the Church’s doctrine and dogma."
August 24 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Brian Gerrity I don't think I've known others who have treated VII as a super dogma in itself, but it begins to take that appearance when they act dismissive to the previous 1900+ years of the Church's teachings and existence.
August 24 at 4:05pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Peterson: No one has ever claimed Trent, or Lateran IV or Florence was "THE COUNCIL". VII gets that treatment. I've been told VII overrides and nullifies everything that came before, an obvious impossibility from the Catholic perspective.
August 24 at 4:06pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia It's like trying to read Lumen Gentium without having read Mystici Corporis. Not freakin' possible.
August 24 at 4:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Simple right way of thinking:
Interpret the obscure by the plain.
August 24 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple So... not having attended TAC (unless you count those three classes I sat in on about 10 or 11 years ago), I can't help but interject, because I teach class tomorrow evening and have a dissertation to write, so, I need pointless procrastination. Plus this thread has popped up in my feed every day for the last however long and yada yada yada.
I agree that TAC ought to have more education in sacred theology. I think that's a good thing, though one which is understandably difficult to incorporate into a great books curriculum. I am not proposing any solution.
But, this last diatribe by Peregrine is, well, just wrong, at least according to St. Thomas. Wisdom is manifold. We talk about the wisdom with regard to practical matters, i.e., prudence (In Nic. Eth., lib. VI, lec.6-10); we talk about wisdom as a knowledge of the highest principles of reasoning about matters proportionate to human understanding (ibid., lec.5-6); we talk about wisdom as a gift of the Holy Spirit infused by grace, by which man judges rightly through inclination, and we talk about wisdom as a principle of judgment through knowledge, as the whole who has attained knowledge of highest principles and their application to further knowledge through some study (ST Ia q.1, a.6, ad.3),
Moreover, Thomas states repeatedly in the Summa Contra Gentiles that a study of the things of earth, of the works of creation, is useful and in some ways even necessary for understanding the things of faith (e.g., SCG I, c.7-8, II, c.2-4).
Consider: if there are errors which seem to invalidate the teaching of sacred theology which can be overcome only by a systematic development of metaphysics, then, in the realm of intellectual development, is not a rightly-considered metaphysics necessary for the teaching of sacred theology?
I hope I'm not butting in too much... I just hate seeing Thomas misappropriated.
August 24 at 4:13pm · Like · 7
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Peregrine Bonaventure The definition of sacred theology has been around for hundreds of years. It's surprising how anyone could have missed it.
August 24 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger (Regarding supercouncil status in deed:) and my many attempts at rephrasing just how this is done by means of the "hermeneutic of continuity"? But more, it makes vii the reference point for all discussion as vii indirectly touches all matters of faith (often directly too).
August 24 at 4:18pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Perescott of Goodriddens, you equivocate on "Wisdom" and claim that you're not. You take, explicitly, only one definition, and misapply that definition to the founders of TAC.
That, my "friend", is called a straw man
August 24 at 4:23pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry, I didn't mean to leave you all sputtering. I just wanted to convey the Church's definition of sacred theology. I didn't write any of the errors that are in the Charter of Thomas Aquinas College. So you can't really blame me for anything. Thanks and may God bless you.
August 24 at 4:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^that, my "friend", is called douchebaggery
August 24 at 4:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and no one is sputtering, more like TLDR
August 24 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I could go paragraph at a time and tell you where you're wrong, but I don't think you'd listen.
August 24 at 4:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Off topic, but appropriate http://www.openculture.com/.../philosophy-referee-hand...
Philosophy Referee Hand Signals
www.openculture.com
The next time you're presiding over an intense philosophical debate, feel free to use these hand signals to referee things. Devised by philosophy prof Landon Schurtz, these hand signals were jokingly meant to be used at APA (American Philosophy Association) conferences.
August 24 at 4:34pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Est quod est.
August 24 at 4:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Before too much longer, though I don't want to derail anything in the interesting magisterium discussion, I would say this: obviously TAC is not "the fulness of liberal education" or whatever that quote was -- perhaps that's admissions office hyperbole. For one thing, that's not possible in four years. It's true that there is a profound and admirable attempt to have students follow a curriculum with elements from the trivium and quadrivium, and then going on to study natural and metaphysical sciences.
Furthermore there's not even a pretense that TAC gives a complete education in all the branches of theology. No one there would even claim that. It's not supposed to do this. It may give you an amazing jumpstart (since you've read some scripture and a bunch of church fathers/doctors/documents), but that's it.
Almost any tutor you speak with will tell you that TAC only tries to be "a good beginning". They say (well, Mr. Collins has said), that we should really cover the same material in 8 years that is attempted to be covered in 4, only no one would come. Though really you could cover it for 80, or 800 years, and still not get to the bottom of it all. If you want to specialize in any of the sciences, divine or otherwise, you better immerse yourself in their pursuit for the rest of your life.
August 24 at 5:07pm · Edited · Unlike · 7
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Catherine Ryland Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think no one at TAC is claiming to teach dogmatic or systematic theology, or even claiming that the way they teach theology is the only way or anything like that.
In fact, and to me this is one of the pluses of TAC, they don't really claim to teach anything at all -- they give the students access to these amazing and enduring texts from all time, and basically let them sink or swim, only they remind us that there is truth and Truth that we are all looking for, and we only have an incomplete piece of that since it is infinite.
They don't even have professors who profess to teach, but rather are co-disciples or travelers maybe further along the same road, who are asking questions of the students (and of themselves) to goad everyone to keep delving further into greater understanding of everything.
And in fact many students are converted this way -- they go looking for further instruction in the official teachings of the Church (through RCIA or whatnot). My classmate was agnostic when she came (culturally Buddhist) and she is now baptized Catholic and in many ways a better Catholic than I am.
They most probably are not converted by the humility or charity of its students.
August 24 at 6:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland The initial claim (at the beginning of the never-ending thread) was that this was the only school of undergraduates where every single student in the student body was required to read vast sums of Aquinas and Aristotle. That's it.
That claim does not mean there is not another department in some undergraduate program that reads more Aquinas or Aristotle (that is, there might be some school that DOES read more), though that seems unlikely. For many people that's not even a desirable goal.
August 24 at 5:17pm · Edited · Like · 12
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Matthew J. Peterson ^Sweet, sweet RATIONALITY.
August 24 at 5:23pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Catherine has totally settled the initial question. Really.
August 24 at 5:28pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland But we still have to settle the magisterium problem. That could take a while.
August 24 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante I don't have one; but you all have fun!
August 24 at 5:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Calvinists....
August 24 at 5:58pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Wow, I step away for a couple of days, and a thousand new comments show up (which I have now finished reading) . . . 400 more till 2000.
August 24 at 6:18pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley I've always taken "religious submission of intellect and will" to be a limited kind of promise: it's saying something like "I will not contradict authoritative teaching publicly and will be slow to think the opposite, especially in matters outside my area of expertise." (Or something like that).
August 24 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think the first part is important because oftentimes the public who hears you contradict authoritative teachings don't distinguish the various degrees of authority with which the Church speaks and, furthermore, are usually not well-educated enough to judge whether you have reasonable grounds for disagreement.
The second part is merely acknowledging the shakiness of human reason.
August 24 at 6:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley (in evidence of which see Descartes et sequaces eius)
August 24 at 6:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We agree to agree, except when we don't...
Protestants agree to disagree, except when they don't...
August 24 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Strictly speaking, it's close to that: it means that one owes in trust and loyalty full assent of mind and will to propositions taught with regular authority (not merely that one owes it to the Church to be "slow to think the opposite"), *unless* one's informed (and there are clear criteria for "information") mind and conscience cannot but dissent, in which case, dissent must remain private and the public teaching not openly contradicted, though prudent questions in principle can be posed depending on the degree of authority which the proposition was taught, and one's own state in life.
August 24 at 6:30pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley That's a better way of saying what I was trying to say.
August 24 at 6:31pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick There usually is a better way to say what you are trying to say Edward Langley (said with the utmost charity and in friendship )
August 24 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia However, Catherine's settling of the initial question has also been tried before. It doesn't answer Pere-whatever's objections. Frankly, I think the greatest problem with his critique is his misunderstanding of "wisdom" - it's various meanings and places, and his misapplication of it
August 24 at 7:58pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland JA, you wish I settled it.
August 24 at 8:02pm · Like
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JA Escalante you settled it in principle. practice will prove to be another thing, I'm sure
August 24 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland As Michael says, it's already been settled many times before. But that doesn't keep us from trying to reach an infinite number of comments. (And yes I think we should eventually discuss both 'infinite' and 'number'.)
August 24 at 8:04pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia transfinite.. have you studied your Georg Cantor? Is it aleph-null or greater?
August 24 at 8:06pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No, I went to TAC.
August 24 at 8:06pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia bwahahahahaha.... I forgot, the program with a huge amount of math doesn't study math....
August 24 at 8:07pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Far too much for me. Remember, TAC doesn't pretend to teach theology OR math. Just the historical development of mathematics.
August 24 at 8:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia then what the hell does it pretend to teach? Perescott? You seem to know everything...
August 24 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland History of mathematics. (Are you suggesting I'm another incarnation of the friendly thread troll?) Well, maybe philosophy of mathematics too. I don't know, maybe it does pretend to teach math. But then I really wouldn't have gone there.
August 24 at 8:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh yeah... I forgot
August 24 at 8:30pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland My cousin is a math person and there was nowhere near enough mathematics for her.
August 24 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland But really the only reason they (we) study mathematics at all is because Plato says in the Republic that mathematics is a necessary preparation for the philosopher. Or I think he says something like that. (Edit: this is unfair -- they also study mathematics for its own sake and contemplation of the beautiful and all that too.)
August 24 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Of course, because as Mr. Kenz or someone pointed out, you only get as far as basic high school calculus or something (okay, maybe a smattering of archaic non-Euclidean stuff), but it's not really the whole point of the program. It's only to make us nice little logical thinkers -- for the sake of philosophy, which is the handmaid of theology...
August 24 at 8:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Which we don't study like nice little magisterium-bots, thank heavens. We're allowed to question what it means, including what the magisterium itself means. (Though I guess we probably are magisterium-bots in the end. I don't know.)
August 24 at 8:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and as an 18 year old know-nothing what "straight line" means. Self evident to the wise, and all that
August 24 at 8:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia “The mathematician does not study pure mathematics because it is useful; he studies it because he delights in it and he delights in it because it is beautiful.”
― Jules Henri Poincaré
stick that in your transcendental pipe and smoke it, Peterson!
August 24 at 8:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia with transcendental tobacco
August 24 at 8:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Emily Norppa ^ isn't that called pot?
August 24 at 8:50pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia maybe in Cali.... here in the midwest we call it "reefer"
August 24 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa Where in the midwest are you? We call it "pot" in WI.
August 24 at 8:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Hippies!
August 24 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante "magisterium-bot"
August 24 at 8:58pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I was called that recently.
August 24 at 9:00pm · Like · 3
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Emily Norppa I asked Tom Sundaram a legalistic question recently, and answered as the self-dubbed LEGALISM BOT.
August 24 at 9:01pm · Like · 4
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John Haggard I'm just trying to do my part to get this post to two thousand comments.
August 24 at 9:04pm · Like · 6
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JA Escalante is transcendental tobacco "magisterium-pot"?
August 24 at 9:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia every time someone says "-bot" I just think hedonism bot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5JxIrn4OVs
Hedonism Bot - Let the Games Begin
August 24 at 9:27pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thomas Aquinas College states in its Charter that the metaphysics it proposes "is necessary" for the "full development of theology." This is false pretense. The contrary is true. In fact, revelation and assent to divinely revealed truths is what is necessary to the full development of theology. This is what the Church teaches, de Fide. So, again, the college has it completely backwards.
August 24 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia again, you're making it up as you go along, Perewhatever.
You're the one calling it metaphysics (and defining metaphysics other than St. Thomas)
August 24 at 9:51pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure The college itself, in its Charter, defines metaphysics as knowledge of God which is reasoned to, then states that this kind of knowledge is "necessary for the full development of theology." This statement is false, and contrary to the Church's infallible dogma on supernatural revelation in the order of knowledge.
I am not making this up as I go along. This is the argument that the college puts forward. And it is a false pretense.
So what does it matter if someone reads more Aristotle and Thomas than another, if they are in material heresy?
August 24 at 9:58pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The claim they're making is about the knowledge reasoned to (the conclusions), and not the way one gets there (one can get there by reasoning or by divine revelation). And IIRC it's Thomism 101 that there is a difference between special and general metaphysics (cf. De ente et essentia ... or perhaps the commentary on Boethius' De Trinitate ... can't recall and too lazy to look it up). The mistake you're accusing them of would be one only an idiot would make.
August 24 at 10:47pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The claim the college is making is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology; namely, sacred theology, theology which proceeds from revelation. This false claim is a material heresy. The college defines metaphysics specifically as that science which leads to knowledge of God by natural reason. Then the college says that this metaphysics is NECESSARY for the full development of theology. This is false. This is heresy. This runs counter to the Church's infallible teaching on grace. Metaphysics is no way necessary for the development of sacred theology or for a believer to possess wisdom without qualification. On the contrary, as the Church teaches, revelation is necessary for the perfection of reason.
"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology." (Thomas Aquinas College, Founding and Governing Document; VII. Liberal Education, Its Parts and the Order Among Them; para. 7)
August 24 at 11:02pm · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante "development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox.
August 24 at 11:31pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thomas Aquinas College also employs a hard and heavy interpretation of doctrine. Doctrine is used at Thomas Aquinas College to support this material heresy that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This gives the wrong impression of theology and the Faith. Doctrine properly understood leads to human freedom. The way it is employed at Thomas Aquinas College leads to limitations of being truly Catholic. So, what is the point of reading the most Aristotle and Thomas of you get the Faith wrong?
August 24 at 11:31pm · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante "heresy" is a big word, especially when deriving that conclusion based on an elementary misreading of a very uncontroversial text
August 24 at 11:32pm · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Material heresy is actually pretty common. What's remarkable here is that the founders of Thomas Aquinas College actually believed that metaphysics is NECESSARY to the full development of sacred theology, and that you don't see this. This is a very basic blunder, and contrary to the Church's de fidei teaching on grace, revelation and the relationship between Faith and reason.
August 24 at 11:35pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley You keep using English, I don't think it means what you think it means.
August 24 at 11:37pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Peregrine I have answered you precisely, and you simply repeat your assertions without answering my argument or attending my distinctions. This isn't looking good for your case.
August 24 at 11:39pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson "The purpose of the required philosophy courses is to assist students in a philosophical understanding of God, his creation, the nature of the human person, and certain philosophical errors which influence contemporary thought and scholarship, with the ultimate aims of providing a philosophical foundation for theological studies and of enabling students to present the Faith more reasonably and effectively."
August 24 at 11:40pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Who said that?
August 24 at 11:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Heretics.
August 24 at 11:40pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson More heresy:
"Christendom College acknowledges in its curriculum the essential role played by St. Thomas Aquinas in Catholic theology. Courses in philosophy and theology are taught according to the spirit, method, and principles of the Common Doctor."
August 24 at 11:41pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Here we see a collapse into an inability to respond seriously to a very straightforward flaw revealed about Thomas Aquinas College. It teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is what the Charter of the college states clearly. This claim is a material heresy. No one responds to this fact, other than to say it is a wrong interpretation, and that this pat denial is a precise response. This is ridiculous.
This is what the Charter states, and this is what the College teaches: metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. This claim is false, and contrary to what the Church teaches.
August 24 at 11:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "86-credit-hour core curriculum, ordered by Thomistic wisdom within a historical matrix"
Heresy
"Catholic Theology and Thomist Philosophy play a central role"
August 24 at 11:43pm · Like
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JA Escalante I am going to repost what I wrote above. Please answer it, or stop talking.
"development" is being used there in the Newmanian sense, and it's an obvious fact. If no metaphysics, then no Nicaea, and thus no decisive answer to heresy. It is not being claimed that the substance of revelation needs to be supplemented by metaphysics in a kind of partim/partim relation, only that theology to fully articulate itself must use metaphysics. Totally uncontroversial and orthodox"
August 24 at 11:43pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante that is not a pat denial- that is an argument based on a distinction, and you have ignored both
August 24 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Blue Book?
August 24 at 11:44pm · Like
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Sam Rocha Man, I used to feel shitty about going to Franciscan, cause we didn't even try to pretend like we had rigour and weren't very clever or bright, but this thread has me feeling pretty good about it now, all things considered.
August 24 at 11:46pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson More heresy, no doubt:
"Finally, he studies philosophy, not just for the sake of a knowledge of reality, but also because philosophy serves to increase his understanding of the Creator of all things. He studies each of these disciplines for its own sake, but also uses them in the service of something higher. The Catholic tradition, then, does not destroy or diminish liberal education, but rather perfects it. The Catholic free man studies all of the disciplines both for their own sake and in the service of Theology, the 'Queen of the Sciences.'"
August 24 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Peterson: the quotation you cite does not appear to be a material heresy. However, TAC claims, in its Charter (Blue Book), cited above, that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. This is heresy. The Church teaches de fide (infallibly) the opposite.
JA Escalante: you are adding heresy to heresy now. Metaphysics is not necessary for the full articulation of sacred theology, revelation or Wisdom, and by claiming that metaphysics was necessary to the Church's infallible teaching from Nicea, you are really showing what you lack. Again, this is false. And you are beginning to sound completely arrogrant here, which is a clear effect of your flawed education. So I will wish you a good night sleep.
Again, material heresy is common, and when you claim that metaphysics was necessary for the full articulation of doctrine at Nicea, you really are in the realm of material heresy.
August 24 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like
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Sam Rocha
August 24 at 11:51pm · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure This is sad.
August 24 at 11:52pm · Like
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JA Escalante Hahahahha
August 24 at 11:52pm · Like
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JA Escalante oh dear
August 24 at 11:52pm · Like
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JA Escalante let's imagine Nicaea without metaphysical discourse. Go for it
August 24 at 11:52pm · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson The idea that theology doesn't presuppose philosophy in some way to some extent is asinine. Grace presupposes nature. First in the natural, then in the supernatural.
Revelation speaks through what is natural. It speaks via human beings who have reason and live within nature. The study of God ceases to be study for you - it ceases to be possible. What you suggest is that somehow theology is it's own universe - no need for a handmaid - not for humans, I suppose.
August 24 at 11:55pm · Unlike · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Does anyone study St Thomas seriously without studying metaphysics? And doesn't St Thomas still hold pride of place among all theologians? I don't see the problem.
August 24 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIDMhwT6srI
"What are the Roots of the Distinction between Theology and Philosophy?"
Professor Jean-Luc Marion explored the supposed conflict between philosophy and theology in light of the present situation of philosophy -- that of the end o...
August 24 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure The doctrine of the Trinity was already very much a part of the sacred liturgy in the Eastern, Western and Oriental church's at the time of Nicea. What I think we see at Nicea is sacred tradition and the Holy Spirit through the Magisterium affirming tradition, and also helping to perfect a line of reasonable metaphysics. But to suggest that Nicean doctrine would have been impossible without metaphysics, or that metaphysics was necessary for Nicean doctrine to occur is really ludicrous. Sorry.
August 24 at 11:56pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Although I believe Peregrine Scott Wineberg has been calling all of St Thomas metaphysics. Which is just dumb.
August 24 at 11:57pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Why do you believe that, Jody?
August 24 at 11:57pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Which?
August 24 at 11:58pm · Like
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JA Escalante I see. Nicaea defined its doctrine using purely Biblical categories, and then, on the side, as a favor to philosophy, perfected a line of metaphysics. Just on the side, you know. Nothing to do with the definition.
August 24 at 11:58pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure That I have been calling all of St. Thomas metaphysics?
August 24 at 11:58pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You have been referring to all that is studied in the theology tutorial as metaphysics. You won't allow the study of the Summa to be called theology. Am I missing something in the last 1600 messages?
August 24 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Oh look, the traditional Catholic Encyclopedia is heretical!
"The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "
August 25 at 12:00am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The claim that TAC makes is that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. No one suggested that understanding metaphysics is not good when you study Thomas, Jody. But that is not the false claim the college is making. I thought you students understood distinctions.
August 25 at 12:00am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Not just good but necessary.
August 25 at 12:01am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure ?
August 25 at 12:01am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sam Rocha - so while you FUers were speaking in tongues and skipping class in favor of cooing electric koolaid Jesus rawk, Peregrine and friends were making sure they swore that Lincoln was an evil man on a bible wrapped in the confederate flag so they would be allowed to receive communion.
Meanwhile, at Thomas Aquinas College...
August 25 at 12:01am · Like · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau Philosophy provides the language for theology. It isn't more important; it is required to talk about it most clearly.
August 25 at 12:01am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, the nature of metaphysics determining its nature from sacred theology means that grace perfects nature. The Charter of the college is not sayinbg this. It is saying the opposite.
You guys seem to be in apoplexy. Sorry.
August 25 at 12:02am · Like
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JA Escalante hahahaha
August 25 at 12:03am · Like
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JA Escalante "At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics.":
August 25 at 12:03am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau ^^ money quote
August 25 at 12:03am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante that thing had an imprimatur and nihil obstat
August 25 at 12:04am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, philosophy provided language for Thomas. The sacred theology of the Church is broader than this. Sorry they don't teach you this.
August 25 at 12:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So we are back to studying St Thomas just isn't enough.
August 25 at 12:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau There are encyclicals that address that
August 25 at 12:04am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Depending on is not the same thing necessistating.
August 25 at 12:05am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Oh really?
August 25 at 12:06am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, Jody, it's more about what the Church teaches as sacred theology, not Thomas' theology. Thomas erred. The Church does not.
August 25 at 12:06am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yep, really.
August 25 at 12:06am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics is not necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Revelation is. This quote reveals the TAC skew, its material heresy.
August 25 at 12:07am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure A plant may depend on water. But water does not give a plant its being.
August 25 at 12:07am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, if you believe that Nicea may have depended on a western metaphysics, that is fine. But if you believe that metaphysics is necessary for what the Church teaches at Nicea, and in its Councils and in Her infallible teachings, and in its theology, and in the sacred theology of the Church, then you are a material heretic. This is a false doctrine of Thomas Aquinas College. And it is simply amazing the founders got this wrong.
August 25 at 12:11am · Edited · Like
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Sam Rocha Am I the only person on this thread who is starting to feel a bit awkward?
August 25 at 12:12am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure If you believe in the false doctrine that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of theology, you should feel awkward.
August 25 at 12:14am · Edited · Like
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Sam Rocha Dude, I stopped trying to follow what you seem to think passes for an argument at triple digits. Now I just wonder if you are a savant or just nuts, which might also be mutually inclusive.
August 25 at 12:14am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Sam Rocha: I'm beyond awkward. A jaded face in Zuckerberg's Book of life.
August 25 at 12:14am · Unlike · 4
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Emily Norppa Sam: But we're so close to 2000 comments!
August 25 at 12:14am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha And then there's THAT.
August 25 at 12:14am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Nevermind, what was I thinking. Carry on, carry on, carry the fuck on.
August 25 at 12:15am · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley I saw this thread had exploded, speculated how it got that way, and it would seem I was right. LOL.
August 25 at 12:15am · Edited · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahaha...this thread just is, man.
August 25 at 12:15am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sam, Dude, you seem like a really malformed character. I'll pray for you.
August 25 at 12:15am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Thanks. Malformed doesn't even begin to tell the story. But toss some prayers for me when you're not slaying dragons on the interwebz.
August 25 at 12:16am · Edited · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha I'm just here for the LOL's.
August 25 at 12:17am · Like · 1
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Ryan Penn Peregrine, the howling troll. Why don't you attend to that last quote JA just listed; you can't possibly believe your earlier comment did so with any coherence can you? Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!! Were the unicorns with you when you came to that conclusion?
August 25 at 12:17am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Recap: material heresy revealed in TAC Charter which states that philosophy is necessary for the completion of sacred theology; in other words, if you want to study sacred theology, you better go to TAC. TAC apologists grow apoplectic.
August 25 at 12:18am · Like
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Marina Shea Sam you're my fav
August 25 at 12:18am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Aw, shucks...
August 25 at 12:18am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ryan, I am not a howling troll. Your rhetorical question "Nicean formulations without metaphysics?!!" simply begs the question.
August 25 at 12:18am · Like
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Marina Shea So can we safely assume we all need real hobbies? I recommend rock climbing.
August 25 at 12:19am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure BTW, are any of you familiar with any of the Church's dogmas on sacred theology and revelation?
August 25 at 12:19am · Like
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Marina Shea Ummmm at least one accredited institution says I am.
August 25 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I really take exception to you (Scott Peregrine) accusing the founders of anything when they are not here to defend themselves.
Did you know it is a sin to assume (and I would guess another sin to publicly accuse) another of a mortal sin?
Am I the only one who can imagine Mr Berquist taking Scott's argument apart syllable by syllable? Dr McArthur would just thump and let him have it all in one blast (if he bothered to address such ridiculous arguments)
August 25 at 12:20am · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure For hobbies, I think going to a Catholic college that actually teaches what the Church teaches is a great place to start.
August 25 at 12:20am · Like
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Marina Shea So there's that. But really Peregrine can't we just fight about molanism?
August 25 at 12:20am · Like
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Marina Shea It's far less ridiculous
August 25 at 12:20am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, I love your loyalty to the founders. If you were only half as loyal to the Church are Her teachings as you were to a group of extremist academics...
August 25 at 12:21am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Again -- the whole of the church's hierarchy has not only turned a blind eye to the 'heresy factory' that is know as TAC but it actually endorses and supports it. We could list the cardinals and bishops. My own among them.
August 25 at 12:21am · Like
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Marina Shea And that's not a hobby. Go talk to Dr Long and Waldstein if you want to fight about my theology credentials
August 25 at 12:21am · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Molanism?
August 25 at 12:21am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson IN A WORLD of material heresy...ONE MAN...
August 25 at 12:21am · Edited · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha But seriously, Peregrine, what giant piece of work are you procrastinating on? I got this grant to write that I'd rather gargle broken glass than do and this is doing the trick. I can't begin to imagine what you're staying away from? Mother-in-law in town?
August 25 at 12:21am · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure one man... and about 42 dogmas of the Church.
August 25 at 12:22am · Like
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Marina Shea Sorry Molinism. Thanks siri
August 25 at 12:22am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Brian kelly writes those endorsements, Jody, not your bishop.
August 25 at 12:22am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson will face the hordes of Thomas Aquinas College grads...ALONE...
August 25 at 12:22am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Um. I can talk to my bishop directly. He isn't talking through anything.
August 25 at 12:23am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Me, and the elephant in the room.
August 25 at 12:23am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau That's just ridiculous Scott PB
August 25 at 12:23am · Unlike · 1
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Marina Shea So Matthew what are you avoiding tonight?
August 25 at 12:23am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Your bishop is not what the Church teaches. Ask him is metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology.
August 25 at 12:24am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson My wife is reading over the job app I just wrote in political theory and I'm writing notes on a documentary proposal re LA political corruption
August 25 at 12:24am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Stay on topic, Marina. The topic is I was just going to do something but I can't recall and that butter in the freezer needs to thaw but I think I'll watch another Ice Bucket fail video...
August 25 at 12:24am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau No -- according to you Scott PB, no one bishop, no cardinal -- but you alone are the voice of the Church.
August 25 at 12:25am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea I'm reading Much Ado About Nothing. I like this part:
"I wonder that you will still be talking, Signor Benedick.
Nobody marks you."
August 25 at 12:25am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Don't worry, I doubt I will get the job.
August 25 at 12:25am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Like a true academic.
August 25 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, you should study the Faith a bit more. You would see the falacy behind the statement that rational science is necessary for sacred theology. Sacred theology is reasonable, but it is necessary for an accurate metaphysics, not the other way around. This is what the Church teaches infallibly.
August 25 at 12:26am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, everyone I have talked to, who has had any contact with TAC alum, thinks you guys are nuts... a breeding ground of all sorts of heresies.
August 25 at 12:28am · Like
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Sam Rocha Did I miss a meeting regarding classical antiquity and patristics? Damn. I *always* miss that meeting.
August 25 at 12:28am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha <raises hand> Not this guy. Good chaps at TAC, if a bit square and not much fun at the pub (even thought they think they're a hoot, they're usually not).
August 25 at 12:29am · Like · 4
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Marina Shea Ok Pere, can I call you Pere? We're all mad here. Haven't you heard?
August 25 at 12:29am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson This summer, watch a troll transform: INTO SOMETHING YOU'VE NEVER BEFORE.
Peregrine Bonaventure: THREAD DRAGON
August 25 at 12:30am · Unlike · 3
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Marina Shea Sam you have never seen me in a pub. Don't talk nonsense
August 25 at 12:30am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea And I'm damn witty thank you very much.
See what I did there?
August 25 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Sam Rocha come to Berkeley and I will vindicate the TAC pub spirit for you
August 25 at 12:31am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland So close to 2000, so close.
August 25 at 12:31am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, Thomas Aquinas College, in regards to Faith and Reason, teaches the exact opposite of what the Church teaches, and your response is there's been a misunderstanding... and that I'm a troll. OK, that's insane, but best regards to you all.
August 25 at 12:32am · Like
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Sam Rocha I think I should play a show down there this year, I'll letcha know. But I'll bring a book and a pillow, just in case.
August 25 at 12:33am · Like
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Marina Shea Sure. File a complaint with Cardinal Burke. He spoke there so I'm sure he has the address.
August 25 at 12:33am · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Sam Rocha, your words ring true, but they reveal you haven't been drinking with the right grads. First off, distrust people who graduated in four years...
You need to play LA. We can make this happen.
August 25 at 12:33am · Like · 4
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Marina Shea I don't think they ever had a show there Sam. You could play it at Steckle though. That could work.
August 25 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Stahp.
(for what follows, please interpret ALL CAPS as italics. Seriously, Facebook, why can't we write in italics in comments?!)
Isn't SOME KIND of metaphysics necessary for Sacred Theology, at least in the sense that WE NEED SOME VOCABULARY in order to talk about non-physical things? I'm not saying that Ye Perfect Metaphysics will be in place prior to any work in Sacred Theology, and in fact Mr. Bonaventure seems quite right that Sacred Theology would perfect metaphysics. But... we still need some WORDS to use to even begin the science, right?
August 25 at 12:34am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland No, no, the true 4-year TACers will bring the book and the pillow. They might even share.
August 25 at 12:34am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Word. Seriously, toss my contact and I'll send them to my people (which is two people).
August 25 at 12:34am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I guess I know enough of my Faith to be hired to work at the diocesan and parish level. But my bishop sounds like he falls under Peregrine's definition of 'heretic'.
August 25 at 12:34am · Like
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Sam Rocha I knew I was on to something, but I see I made a category mistake. I still need empirical, no, *phenomenological* evidence.
August 25 at 12:35am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes Emily -- exactly. We need a language.
August 25 at 12:35am · Like
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JA Escalante well I really am a heretic from the RC point of view but I know what the Catholic Church teaches and I know what the TAC Charter says and there is no problem there whatever, as I have demonstrated
August 25 at 12:35am · Like · 3
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Marina Shea Dude Jody no worries. It's not damnable if you didn't receive a coherent explanation of why. Worst case is material, tops.
August 25 at 12:36am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'll leave you with one parting thought. Go to the "Blue Book" and in part VII see where it states that metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology. Then compare this false statement with the Church's dogma on faith, revelation and the sacred science. This, by definition, is a heresy. Also note the vulgar comments and the sophistry coming from so many TAC alum. Then decide for yourself.
August 25 at 12:36am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We're at 1,891 -- I'm sure we can make 2000 before bed.
August 25 at 12:37am · Like
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Marina Shea I'm only sophistical when no one is listening.
August 25 at 12:37am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha What you don't understand, Peregrine, is the TAC is actually an acronym for Toots Apes and Cheese, and its function it to slowly brew minds into leather flower pots, with the little holes in the bottom so excess water can drain out. Now, why, sir, are you quoting the lost booklets of Wittgenstein? I may switch to your side if that's intentional. GEM Anscombe anyone? A tart, perhaps?
August 25 at 12:38am · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson And Sam Rocha - def drink with JA Escalante
August 25 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Will someone please do a statistical analysis of the times that Peregine has said good bye in this thread?
August 25 at 12:38am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, you have not demonstrated anything. TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This contradicts the Church. You have falsely claimed that metaphysics was necessary for the full development of doctrine at Nicea. This is totally false and heretical.
August 25 at 12:38am · Edited · Like
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Marina Shea I liked Anscombe. She has thoughts.
August 25 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha As I was saying ^^
August 25 at 12:38am · Like
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Marina Shea I like people with thoughts. Darn that liberal education
August 25 at 12:39am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The TAC Charter also claims that the curriculum places an emphasis on the doctrines of the Church instead of the history of the Church. Does anyone else see a problem here... maybe stretching things a bit?
August 25 at 12:41am · Like
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Sam Rocha I will miss this thread.
August 25 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea You know I might be mad. Ron MacArthur suggested my propensity for the word "like" indicated as much. Does that mean Pere and a TAC founder agree on something? *gasp* say it ain't so Sam .
August 25 at 12:41am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Philosophy of Education at UBC?? Good Lord!
August 25 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I want to elect Jody's bishop the next Pope.
August 25 at 12:42am · Like
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Sam Rocha I'll miss you, metaphysically first, then theologically -- but never biblically -- Peregrine.
August 25 at 12:42am · Like
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Marina Shea Hey his syllabus sounds interesting
August 25 at 12:42am · Like
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Sam Rocha My syllabus of ERRORS, of course.
August 25 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau There is a spin off page dedicated to this thread (in case you missed it): https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever?fref=ts
The Neverending Thread
This is a fan page dedicated to "Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles," a link post and ensuing commentary.
Community: 57 like this
August 25 at 12:43am · Like · 3
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Marina Shea Well Sam those who can do. But as you are teaching education isn't that ironic?
August 25 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Peregrine, by the way, has just launched a new offensive at me, based on my subfield and place of employment.
August 25 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Is metaphysics necessary to the fulfillment of the philosophy of education at UBC, or does it not even depend on it?
August 25 at 12:44am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You went to UBC?
August 25 at 12:44am · Like
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Marina Shea But you have both. And that is something.
August 25 at 12:44am · Like
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Sam Rocha I teach at UBC.
August 25 at 12:44am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Does UBC mean University Before Metaphysics?
August 25 at 12:45am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ah. I'm outside of Vancouver. So we share a "heretic" bishop
August 25 at 12:45am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea No that's an M
August 25 at 12:45am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Peregrine, my good man, you just a decent joke!
August 25 at 12:45am · Like
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Sam Rocha Jody, you ought to come to my show at Regent College this week, seriously...
August 25 at 12:46am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Thomas Aquinas College. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. My eyes have been opened Scotty Boy! Thanks.
August 25 at 12:46am · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Vancouver is tragically beautiful. There are no theologians in Vancouver.
August 25 at 12:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell C'mon y'all, keep it going. I'm not going to bed until we hit 2,000!
August 25 at 12:46am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So does Peregrine know you or was he stalking you Sam?
August 25 at 12:46am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No one said you are scum and villainy. Just that your founders were reactionaries, who perpetrate material heresy.
August 25 at 12:46am · Like
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Matt Badley Just sticking my head in here to make sure things aren't totally crazy.
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, I hope you never stalk anyone. That would really be scary.
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Stalking.
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Again with the recognition of sarcasm!
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau ah come on. You gave us more credit than that. We have become a heretic factory
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is about time Matt showed up
August 25 at 12:47am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure "A breeding ground of heresy."
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I just moved here, but I am already feeling VERY heretical, must be the water.
August 25 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Aaron Thibodeaux We should probably look at what we mean by "necessary." It seems to me, Peregrine, that JA Escalante has already given argument for the necessity of metaphysics in theology. Is water "necessary" for a fish? I think you're taking one sense of necessity and thinking it means something we're not saying.
August 25 at 12:48am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Floridated water, no doubt. It saps your vital essence.
August 25 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Dang, Vancouver is the anchor for the Catholic Church in Canada. We are orthodox. Not learned. But orthodox.
August 25 at 12:48am · Like
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Sam Rocha To your question, Peregrine: You may want to read my book. It's short and has pictures. http://samueldrocha.wix.com/primer
A Primer for Philosophy and Education, by Samuel D. Rocha
samueldrocha.wix.com
A Primer for Philosophy and Education is a site promoting an illustrated book written by Sam Rocha.
August 25 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure No worries Sam, I do not think God holds UBC to the same standards as TAC. After all, they read more Aristotle than anyone.
August 25 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I love how intrepid newcomers actually pop in and say something intelligent. Thank you.
August 25 at 12:49am · Unlike · 4
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Sam Rocha Whew! Thanks man! I was pretty worried about that.
August 25 at 12:49am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure If Vancouver is orthodox, then you must be a relativist.
August 25 at 12:49am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Well the alum are proficient breeders, good to know they're squeezing heresies in the with all the babies.
August 25 at 12:49am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Relativism works pretty well in relationships.
August 25 at 12:49am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh good, it even has ullustrations.
August 25 at 12:49am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Yep.
August 25 at 12:50am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Or read the book on education by the "heretic" (according to Peregrine Scott) Archbishop J Michael Miller: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Sees-Teaching.../dp/1933184205
The Holy See's Teaching on Catholic Schools
www.amazon.com
This book clearly explains what our Catholic schools should be -- and offers you practical advice on how to judge whether they are! At a conference at Catholic University in the Fall of 2005, Archbishop J. Michael Miller, the man responsible for Catholic education around the world, distilled for ...
August 25 at 12:50am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Just make sure you teach your children the faith, before you turn them back over to TAC.
August 25 at 12:50am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, for the record, I never called your bishop a heretic. That's not even funny.
August 25 at 12:51am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure If Relativism works well in relationships, Christ works even better.
August 25 at 12:52am · Like
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Sam Rocha My children are, presently, red-blooded pagans, reading Homer, Norse myths, and Tolkien. Even Lewis is too soggy a Christian cracker for their taste.
August 25 at 12:52am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha Tell that to *your* relatives.
August 25 at 12:52am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sam, I will pray for your children. You must teach them Faith. Teach them about Christ, as a person
August 25 at 12:52am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Well, you said he didn't support the College (Brian Kelly said he did?). You said if he did he is a heretic. But he does, he knows about the College. He is a lover and student of St Thomas. And given his jobs prior to this one, I think he knows a thing or 2 about post secondary education in the Catholic tradition.
August 25 at 12:53am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Sam -- do you homeschool?
August 25 at 12:53am · Like
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Sam Rocha Sort of.
August 25 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha It's VERY complicated.
August 25 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau ah
August 25 at 12:54am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jody, that's not what I said. I said if he endorsed the college, that still does not take away from the fact that the college is wrong and in material heresy about Faith and Reason. This does not mean he is a heretic, and I never said he was, you silly girl.
August 25 at 12:54am · Like
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Sam Rocha But, the short answer is, yes and no.
August 25 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ah, yes and no. You must have gone to TAC Sam.
August 25 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa It sounds better than subjecting your kids to the crap in most schools (I'm looking at you, YA Literature).
August 25 at 12:55am · Like · 3
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Emily Norppa Rarely affirm, seldom deny, always distinguish.
August 25 at 12:55am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau He is only one bishop who has endorsed and supported the college. There are many. How can they be so wrong as to support a school based on heresy?
August 25 at 12:55am · Like
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Sam Rocha I'll pray for your computer. I hope it keeps running. We need you.
August 25 at 12:55am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ah, but Jody, you said I said he was a heretic, when you knew I did not. What does that tell you?
August 25 at 12:56am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Who do you pray to Sam?
August 25 at 12:56am · Like
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Sam Rocha Anthony Hopkins gave a sweet talk at TAC. That has to count for something?
August 25 at 12:56am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea that this has gone on too darn long
August 25 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa To get my 6th-12th grade teaching license, I had to take a CLASS in YA Lit. Yes, there was a GRADUATE-LEVEL CLASS devoted to this.
Just,... gah.
August 25 at 12:56am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure BTW, Sam, have you done the Grouse grind?
August 25 at 12:56am · Like
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Marina Shea Sam you pray to Anthony Hopkins?
August 25 at 12:57am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Poor Emily. Did you have to read Twilight?
August 25 at 12:57am · Edited · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Is he even dead?
August 25 at 12:57am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Anthony Hopkins did not. Did he?
August 25 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Yeah
August 25 at 12:57am · Like
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Marina Shea It's totes on the webs
August 25 at 12:57am · Like
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Emily Norppa No! Thankfully, even they saw that that shouldn't be on the list!
August 25 at 12:57am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure 25 and counting. Does the ball drop?
August 25 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
and never brought to mind?
August 25 at 12:59am · Like
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Sam Rocha It depends what you mean the term 'pray.' But I won't be obtuse, I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, I pray to God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the saints, Mary, my dead relatives, Cervantes and Beatrice, trees, Francis and so on...
August 25 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2IW08L1gLY
Sir Anthony Hopkins Talks to the Students of Thomas Aquinas College
On Thursday, March 29, students at Thomas Aquinas College were treated to an hour-long question-and-answer session with a visitor who is widely considered am...
August 25 at 12:59am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I didn't know they had Catholics at UBC.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Theology: The study of things taught definitively by the Magisterium.
The Magisterium: Peregrine Bonaventure
August 25 at 1:00am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha I have no idea what the Grouse Grind is. Sorry.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It had better drop. It's well past 12 midnight here in Michigan.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like
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Sam Rocha Don't you know we're EVERYWHERE!?
August 25 at 1:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland No they don't. They only have heretics.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Uh oh.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Index Institutorum Prohibitorum:
1. TAC
2. Thomas Aquinas College
3. TAC
August 25 at 1:00am · Edited · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau Edward -- you finally got it.
August 25 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland We could always add UBC
August 25 at 1:01am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Blue Book (add that to the Index)
August 25 at 1:01am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well, if Anthony Hopkins talked to the students at TAC, that must mean they're all clear on the central issue of metaphysics and sacred theology then. What did he talk about?
August 25 at 1:01am · Like
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Catherine Ryland I also nominate Steubenville, since I'm living here.
August 25 at 1:01am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Being a movie star
August 25 at 1:01am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wait, are we going to have Y2K problems when we hit 2,000??
August 25 at 1:01am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Shakespeare.
August 25 at 1:02am · Like
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Marina Shea He got bored and took a tour
August 25 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha OH SHIT!
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Peregrine Bonaventure Blue book says...
August 25 at 1:02am · Like
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Sam Rocha And method acting.
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Jody Haaf Garneau We're at 2000 -- you all have to go to bed now!
August 25 at 1:02am · Unlike · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau or pray
August 25 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Lovely talk.
August 25 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa WE DID IT, PEEPS!
August 25 at 1:02am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha I'M GOING FOR Y3K!!
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ah, where are all these balloons and confetti coming from????
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha SO proud.
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Man of the match goes to the indefatigable Peregrine Bonaventure.
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 3
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Emily Norppa www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
Kool & The Gang - Celebration
Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Blue Book says metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. Infallible dogma says revelation neccessary for the fulfillment of metaphysics.
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Marina Shea So anyways
August 25 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea I clearly don't know a thing about sacred theo (won't my profs be sad) but I do love little kittens...
August 25 at 1:04am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wait! You didn't get the balloons and confetti? Update your app.
August 25 at 1:04am · Like · 5
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Sam Rocha Emily knows how to party.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Necessary can be said in may ways. Scott doesn't get that.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like
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Sam Rocha When people say the internet is a waste of time, this is proof of why they are right and why I don't care.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau ah. I'm going to bed… 2000 was my goal.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't think you really need to know anything about sacred theo to go to TAC.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm going to pour myself a glass of Maker's right after I wash my hands in a Pilate-like manner.
August 25 at 1:05am · Like · 5
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Emily Norppa Why thank you, Sam.
August 25 at 1:06am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea I meant at Ave
August 25 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea And way to miss the cultural reference point
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Peregrine Bonaventure I do get that Jody. It's just that it can't be said that way in the case of metaphysics and revelation/sacred theology. That's heresy. The Church made that clear in the 1700s. You don't know what you talk about.
August 25 at 1:07am · Like
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Sam Rocha So what do you *really* about sacred theo? I want some really spicy mystical secret dirt now that we're in the third millennium.
August 25 at 1:07am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson
August 25 at 1:08am · Like · 5
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Marina Shea Gnosis. Like Gnocchi only not
August 25 at 1:08am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theo is really a poetry Sam. A true myth. There, how's that?
August 25 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Fax me one Matthew
August 25 at 1:08am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I love Gnocchi.
August 25 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Hey man, I'm totally down with what you said right there.
August 25 at 1:09am · Like
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Marina Shea John of the Cross ftw!
August 25 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Gnostic Gnocchi
August 25 at 1:09am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theo is a poetry that melts metaphysics and gets it right.
August 25 at 1:09am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha See? I don't disagree with this.
August 25 at 1:10am · Like
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Marina Shea We could start a great restaurant. Thus solving the liberal arts employment issue
August 25 at 1:10am · Like · 4
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Marina Shea I think melting is a weird word
August 25 at 1:10am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Metaphysical Melting Mushrooms
August 25 at 1:10am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Let's all get down!
August 25 at 1:10am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha Let's get metaphysical?
August 25 at 1:11am · Like · 6
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Marina Shea No shrooms. That might send an inadvertent message
August 25 at 1:11am · Like · 3
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Emily Norppa Ain't no party like a metaphysical party...
August 25 at 1:11am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea If you change physical to metaphysical pop music gets awesome
August 25 at 1:11am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha Hey, I made some Augustinian soul music...
August 25 at 1:12am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea Speaking of which buy Sam 's music
August 25 at 1:12am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think Marina is a weird name. It sounds like a place where you park your boat.
August 25 at 1:12am · Like
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Sam Rocha Bingo: http://samueldrocha.wix.com/late-to-love
late-to-love
samueldrocha.wix.com
August 25 at 1:12am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea And a mermaid who died
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Catherine Ryland I think we need the material heretics in Europe to wake up and get us all back on track with their definitive statements. It is 6 or 7 by now after all. All this celebration is disordering my soul.
August 25 at 1:13am · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh, that's sad. Sorry.
August 25 at 1:13am · Like
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Marina Shea Eliot wrote me a poem
August 25 at 1:13am · Edited · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha I feel like you just changed clothes, Peregrine. Nice new outfit.
August 25 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Isn't Marina also a saint in the Melchite Greek-Catholic Church?
August 25 at 1:13am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No!
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine Ryland, do metaphysics. It's necessary.
August 25 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea She's a Vietnamese martyr too
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Marina Shea But my parents were Protestants so I think they just liked it
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thanks Sam, it's my UBC attire.
August 25 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Wasn't she the first mermaid every canonized?
August 25 at 1:14am · Like
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Sam Rocha Right on. Pretty casual here I'm noticing. (We just moved here over a month ago.)
August 25 at 1:15am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Frome whence? (I like to try to use words like whence whenever I can.)
August 25 at 1:15am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Is UBC really 100 miles wide?
August 25 at 1:16am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Can you see West Van from your window?
August 25 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I grew up in West Van, and I've never told anyone that before.
August 25 at 1:17am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I live in West Point Grey, as West Van as it gets, besides UBC proper.
August 25 at 1:18am · Edited · Like
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Sam Rocha So I'm siting in West Van.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Back to this metaphysics thing. Does anyone think that necessary means something other than necessary?
August 25 at 1:19am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sam, are you related to the Rochas from Weslaco, TX?
August 25 at 1:19am · Like
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Sam Rocha Oh shit. Maybe. My dad was born in Pharr.
August 25 at 1:20am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Are we talking necessity and sufficiency?
August 25 at 1:20am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sam, in your capacity as a resident of West Point Grey, do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?
August 25 at 1:21am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Does it depend?
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Catherine Ryland There are many senses of the word necessary.
August 25 at 1:22am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Not necessarily.
August 25 at 1:22am · Like
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Sam Rocha If you want a serious answer, you'll have to explain to me exactly what you mean by all those terms. Particularly 'metaphysics,' and the expressions "full development" and "sacred theology."
August 25 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure In what sense is metaphysics necessary for the full development of sacred theology, when the Church teaches that only revelation is?
August 25 at 1:23am · Like
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Sam Rocha I more or less think I get what you mean by 'necessity.'
August 25 at 1:24am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics means the rational study of God. Full development means for it to become a complete science. Sacred theology means the science of revealed truths, revealed by God as true, which the Church teaches under its authority.
August 25 at 1:25am · Like
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Sam Rocha If you don't mind, what, exactly, do you mean by 'science'?
August 25 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Isn't the metaphysics in God as knower?
August 25 at 1:26am · Like
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JA Escalante the Church actually doesn't teach that only revelation is necessary; that's the Protestant position. The Church teaches that the magisterium is also necessary for the full development of theology. And continuing to dodge the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't helping you.
August 25 at 1:26am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha I don't care what it *is*, I just want to understand what Peregrine means when he uses those terms.
August 25 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure The way we know something with certainty. Either by reason, or by Faith. Two different ways of knowing.
August 25 at 1:26am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yeah, shut up, JA.
August 25 at 1:27am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Doesn't metaphysics just mean study of first principles? You only sort of unintentionally bump into God in the end.
August 25 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante oh such charity!
August 25 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I think he was joking.
August 25 at 1:27am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sam, science means how we understand something with certainty. Metaphysics proceeds with reason. Sacred theology proceeds with revelation and assent by faith.
August 25 at 1:28am · Like
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Sam Rocha "Do you think metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology?"
Well, I don't really know, to tell you the truth. I have a hard time understanding how your puzzle pieces fit together. But, then again, I'm a Franciscan grad, so I'm not as bright as the TAC'ers.
August 25 at 1:28am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yeah, I was joking. Now shut up. (Joking.)
August 25 at 1:28am · Like
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JA Escalante what Peregrine means is, theology is like an organism which has all the elements and factors of its own unfolding into final form within itself. Thus, nothing outside it is necessary. This is why he compares it to a poem
August 25 at 1:29am · Like
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Sam Rocha I might just go strum a shitty P&W tune on my cheap guitar now...
August 25 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Catherine- I'm wondering more about on the lines of if faith is imperfect somewhere the knowledge of the thing itself exists
August 25 at 1:29am · Like
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JA Escalante But theology is not fact like an organism, nor a poem
August 25 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha It strikes me, Peregrine, that you use the term 'theology' to describe what many tend to use the term 'metaphysics' for. Perhaps, we have a little language game going on?
August 25 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well, it seems to me it is not necessary, because the Church says it is not. But I can see why TAC says it is, because it wants to play up the rational side of the Faith, because of the ideology of its founders. The trouble is, the Faith and sacred theology is in no way dependent on metaphysics, but the other way around. The Church has several doctrines on this. No big deal, it just explain why TAC grads believe they are so smart.
August 25 at 1:30am · Like
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Marina Shea JA go on?
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Sam Rocha I don't like similes, either. They are not very helpful in this sort of talk.
August 25 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante The Catholic Encyc says theology as a science "depends" upon metaphysics. No one called that heretical
August 25 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea I love you like a love song
August 25 at 1:31am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Natural theology is metaphysics, Sam. We are speaking of natural theology vs sacred theology. Natural theology is not necessary in any sense of the word for the development and fulfillment of sacred theology, unles you are a TAC ideologue teaching heresy.
August 25 at 1:32am · Like
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Marina Shea But we can know Natural Theology
August 25 at 1:32am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, the Catholic Encyc does not say that. Your eye is biased.
August 25 at 1:32am · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine will you ever address the propositions in the CE
August 25 at 1:32am · Like
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JA Escalante HAHAHAHA
August 25 at 1:32am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea I mean someone can. I think I still take God's existence on faith. But I think Mr Berquist knew it.
August 25 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante I quoted it, Peregrine.
August 25 at 1:33am · Like
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Sam Rocha Aha! So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?
August 25 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Perhaps you could link the section here.
August 25 at 1:33am · Like
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JA Escalante i did above
August 25 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante twice
August 25 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha DO IT AGAIN!!!
August 25 at 1:33am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Sorry, missed it.
August 25 at 1:33am · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine keeps dodging it
August 25 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes Marina, we know natural theology by reason for the most part, but much of it is revealed in sacred theology. This proves that the sacred completes and fulfills the natural. This is what the Church teaches. TAC is wrong.
August 25 at 1:34am · Like
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Marina Shea Well I thought it was just for fools like me who were too thick to get it
August 25 at 1:34am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, I am not dodging it. You are misusing the Catholic Encyclopedia to try to confute dogma, and you are not succeeding.
August 25 at 1:34am · Like
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Sam Rocha So, would you say that reading the Western Canon in chronological order is heresy?
August 25 at 1:35am · Like
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Marina Shea Like God knows we can't all be super brilliant because he doesn't give us all the same things. So he let's us all have a fighting chance. You know dodging the whole Predest language
August 25 at 1:35am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Catherine:
"The nature of metaphysics determines its essential and intimate relation to theology. Theology, it need hardly be said, derives its conclusions from premises which are revealed, and in so far as it does this it rises above all schools of philosophy or metaphysics. At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics. Sometimes, indeed, as when it deals with the supernatural mysteries of faith, theology acknowledges that metaphysical conceptions are inadequate and metaphysical formulae incompetent to express the truths discussed. Nevertheless, if theology had no metaphysical formularies to rely upon, it could neither express its premises nor deduce its conclusion in a scientific manner. "
August 25 at 1:35am · Like · 4
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Kathleen Wilson Does this thread have its own drinking game yet?
August 25 at 1:35am · Like · 7
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Catherine Ryland But as far as I know metaphysics technically does not have God as its proper object.
August 25 at 1:35am · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure So metaphysics = nat theology, but you distinguish that from sacred theology. Okay, but why?
Because sacred theology deals also with things we can only know by faith and revelation; plus it reveals some things we can know by reason.
August 25 at 1:35am · Like
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Sam Rocha Cool. Sort of like psychoanalysis, eh?
August 25 at 1:36am · Like
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JA Escalante AGAIN:
"At the same time, it is a human science, and, as such, it must formulate its premises in exact terminology and must employ processes of human reasoning in attaining its conclusions. For this, it depends on metaphysics."
August 25 at 1:36am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine, the proper object of metaphysics is God.
August 25 at 1:36am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Thanks! I too saw that but I meant could you put a link there, so that people could see for themselves.
August 25 at 1:36am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, I'm not talking to you anymore.
August 25 at 1:36am · Like
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Sam Rocha You keep saying that though
August 25 at 1:37am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10226a.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Metaphysics
www.newadvent.org
That portion of philosophy which treats of the most general and fundamental principles underlying all reality and all knowledge
August 25 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante vide: relation to theology
August 25 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure It can depend, without necessity.
August 25 at 1:37am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's not like psychonalysis at all.
August 25 at 1:38am · Edited · Like
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Aaron Thibodeaux Does a fish depend on water to survive? Can we say water is necessary for its survival?
August 25 at 1:38am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea And here I was hoping we could play tell your dream. Although not if it has a crab please.
August 25 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure We can say it is necessary for its survival, but not for its being. That's the point.
August 25 at 1:39am · Like
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Sam Rocha Does metaphysics imply that reason is how we know, cause that's not really Plato's notion of the matter.
August 25 at 1:39am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes.
August 25 at 1:39am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure More than imply.
August 25 at 1:40am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell "...Consequently, it must be the office of one and the same science to consider separate substances and being- in-general (ens commune) which is the genus of which the separate substances mentioned above are the common and universal causes.... For the subject of a science is the genus whose causes and properties we seek, and not the causes themselves of the particular genus studied, because the knowledge of the causes of some genus is the goal to which the investigation of the science attains."—Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Metaphysics of Aristotle, prooemium
August 25 at 1:40am · Like · 3
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Marina Shea Sam- this is true. But Plato isn't a saint
August 25 at 1:40am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell *drops mic*
August 25 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Isn't the proper object of metaphysics just 'being as being'? Or something like that.
August 25 at 1:40am · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theology, on the other hand, is God speaking to man, telling man certain mysteries about the faith.
August 25 at 1:40am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine, yes. That is God.
August 25 at 1:40am · Like
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Sam Rocha You should read Plato, dude. In Attic Greek. That is sacred theology.
August 25 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Aaron Thibodeaux Good! You've admitted to several meanings of "necessary"! Progress!
August 25 at 1:41am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Well also God-Man talking to man telling us about God and man
August 25 at 1:41am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It would be like sacred theology, if Socrates were God.
August 25 at 1:41am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Marina, yes.
August 25 at 1:41am · Like
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Sam Rocha Are you trying to imply that Socrates was not God?
August 25 at 1:42am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Being as being is not God. If it were God, then Aristotle would not admit to there being 47 separate substances.
August 25 at 1:42am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Now the question is, is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man. No, according to the Church. Yes, according to this little college in California.
August 25 at 1:42am · Like
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Marina Shea Sam stop being a heretic
August 25 at 1:42am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha I can't help myself.
August 25 at 1:43am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland "Catherine, yes. That is God" But that's not what you start with in metaphysics. You begin by studying different aspects (properties, whatever) of being and you only eventually reach God at the very end.
August 25 at 1:43am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Can we all agree that St. marina was a mermaid?
August 25 at 1:43am · Like
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JA Escalante "Moreover, philosophy is indispensable for theological formation. “Theology in fact has always needed and still needs philosophy’s contribution.”[19] By helping to deepen the revealed Word of God, with its character of transcendent and universal truth, philosophy avoids stopping at the level of religious experience. It has rightly been observed that “the crisis of postconciliar theology is, in large part, the crisis of philosophical foundations […]. When philosophical foundations are not clarified, theology loses its footing."
August 25 at 1:44am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure catherine, yes, but you reason your way there.
August 25 at 1:44am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Metaphysics is absolutely philosophy, and not really theology, except in a sneaky way. Or am I being a heretic?
August 25 at 1:44am · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm...
Library : Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy
www.catholicculture.org
Library Document Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosopy On March 22, 2011, in the Holy See Press Office a press conference was held to present the newly-published Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosophy. Participating in the event were Cardinal Zenon Grochol…
August 25 at 1:44am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thank you again JA for the scintilating demonstration.
August 25 at 1:44am · Like
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Sam Rocha "is metaphysics necessary for God talking to man." Of course not!
August 25 at 1:44am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No metaphysics is also called natural theology. Because it studies God as being.
August 25 at 1:45am · Like
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JA Escalante hahaha Peregrine keep avoiding the plain sense of words, and we'll all be persuaded of your profundity
August 25 at 1:45am · Like · 4
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Marina Shea Well God is being I mean sure. But that missed the point
August 25 at 1:45am · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante "needed"...sounds like necessity, doesn't it
August 25 at 1:45am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine, I don't think heretics ask if they are being heretical, so I think that means you are not a heretic. Do you float?
August 25 at 1:45am · Like
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Catherine Ryland You may reach God in metaphysics, but I still hold (like a parrot) that God is not the proper object, in that you don't set out to prove God's existence or anything, or you're not studying God as God.
August 25 at 1:45am · Like
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Marina Shea Well at least someone isn't. #hopeyet
August 25 at 1:46am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Pretty sure that logging over a thousand FB comments is a heresy of some kind.
August 25 at 1:46am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure OK, catherine, you study God as God when God tells you something more than what you can know about him by reason. But these heretics are saying that what you know of Him by reason is necessary to the fulfillment of what God tells you about Him. Which is false.
August 25 at 1:47am · Edited · Like
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Marina Shea So of all you fine folk I do not have a spouse and/or kids. Whats everyone else's excuse?
August 25 at 1:47am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Well, anything you know, you know with your reason, right?
August 25 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I already said it: I'm procrastinating, and the wife and kids are sleeping.
August 25 at 1:48am · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well, I was in a bar one night talking about metaphysics and that's how I met my wife.
August 25 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea So there is some good in it
August 25 at 1:48am · Like
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Sam Rocha Is she a heretic?
August 25 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, catherine, some things you can only know by faith.
August 25 at 1:48am · Like
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Marina Shea Please tell me you used a metaphysics pick up line
August 25 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure does she float?
August 25 at 1:49am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I used metaphysics as I pick up line. We have since brought six rational animals into existence.
August 25 at 1:49am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I don't get the heretics floating reference
August 25 at 1:49am · Like
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Marina Shea Well good. The world must be peopled.
August 25 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Honestly, Peregrine, I think you'll like my book. I think we agree on the polarity and necessity, but perhaps don't quite see eye-toeye onhow TAC is reversing it.
August 25 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I believe it's from a movie that was directed and filmed in England by a group of comedians.
August 25 at 1:50am · Like
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Sam Rocha I float.
August 25 at 1:50am · Like
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Marina Shea "What’s a nice girl like you doing in a possible world like this?”"
August 25 at 1:50am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland "some things you can only know by faith" right, but I just mean that if you didn't have any reason at all, you wouldn't know anything.
August 25 at 1:51am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, it was more like, "how would you like to exist together at my place."
August 25 at 1:51am · Like
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Marina Shea Say we be dreaming. What then?
August 25 at 1:52am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's correct; reason is in man; but when we know by reason, this is using the word differently. When we know in faith, it is reasonable, because of reason in man, used in the primary sense. But this is not what TAC is saying. TAC is saying that unless you reason to God first, then you cannot really have the fullness of knowing God by faith. This is false.
August 25 at 1:53am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland So in that sense, reason is necessary, unless you want to hold that irrational animals have faith
August 25 at 1:53am · Edited · Like
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Marina Shea No
August 25 at 1:53am · Like
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Marina Shea Peregrine- I sat in class with the founders multiple times. And as far as I know all of them mentioned the old lady who had faith as the one who knew more than the scholar without.
August 25 at 1:54am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure In that sense, reason is necessary, but that is not the sense that TAC uses the word. For that would just be saying that man is rational.
August 25 at 1:54am · Like
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Catherine Ryland See, this is good, because we are coming to where the terminology or whatever you want to call it is getting in the way. I say it's the fault of TAC's advertising (since it throws around the term 'necessary' where it might be misunderstood). TAC is certainly not saying that you cannot know God by faith fully unless you reason to him first. In no way.
August 25 at 1:54am · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, I think it is that too. Same with some other colleges.
August 25 at 1:55am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Here it is the word necessary that is the problem. Or metaphyisics.
August 25 at 1:56am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure We should be Catholics first, alumnists second.
August 25 at 1:56am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Well, I'm saying that it comes from a misunderstanding of TAC's advertising material.
August 25 at 1:57am · Like
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JA Escalante TAC nowhere says that theology is a partim/partim relation of revelation and metaphysics. It does say that metaphysics is necessary for its full development, in the sense of doctrinal articulation. So does the Catholic Encyc, and the Decree quoted above.
August 25 at 1:57am · Like · 8
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Marina Shea Thank you JA
August 25 at 1:57am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha zzzZZZzzz
August 25 at 1:58am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante oh i said it before, many times in the thread; but PB keeps dodging
August 25 at 1:58am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine, the TAC founders were reacting to those whom they felt were not emphasising the rational aspects of the faith enough. So it seems clear the overplayed their hand, when they state that metaphysics is necessary to sacred theology. If you take metaphysics completely away, you still have sacred theology.
August 25 at 1:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If anyone is interested, I had a clear insight in to the Troll's error about theology up above, like a 1000 comments ago. This makes sense of all of his problems:
The troll falsely asserted that metaphysics treats of God as a subject. This mad clear to me a great number of his problems. Because he holds this definition he needs to find a way to distinguish between metaphysics and theology. This is why he makes such a big deal about "assent to the fulness of faith." Of course we agree with him that Sacred theology requires the assent of faith, but we don't need to make such a strong distinction there. We follow Aquinas and distinguish according to formal objects. Sacred Theology alone treats of God directly. This is why the whole Summa Theologiae is Theology. Even the preambles; even the stuff that can be known by reason! Why? Because it is proceeding according to a higher light, and starting with God as its formal object.
Metaphysics is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects nature.
August 25 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, TAC never says that metaphysics is necessary in the sense of doctrinal articulation. And the Church never says this either. You are just making it up because you cannot accept the facts. The Church says that sacred theology, Faith and revelation can exist without metaphysics, and that the former are necessary to perfect and fulfill reason. TAC has it completely wrong, and you are unable to accept this.
August 25 at 2:01am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Can you explain what you think metaphysics is Daniel? I think this is where the misunderstanding lies.
August 25 at 2:02am · Like
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JA Escalante oh, Peregrine.
August 25 at 2:02am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Very, very simply.
August 25 at 2:02am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, I am not a troll. Just look at your statement: "Metaphysics is necessary to have the fulness of Sacred Doctrine because grace perfects nature." That makes no sense. If grace perfects nature, then revelation is necessary for metaphysics. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. TAC teaches the opposite.
August 25 at 2:03am · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine I'm a Calvinist, I have nothing invested in this at all, except the cause of truth in reading. And you're an absymal reader of texts.
August 25 at 2:03am · Unlike · 5
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Sam Rocha At this rate, Peregrine, I don't think you are a troll. A troll is you. You have set the bar to another level and for that I commend you.
August 25 at 2:04am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Metaphysics is the science of being qua being. It cannot consider God directly.
As Thomas says:
Sic ergo theologia sive scientia divina est duplex. Una, in qua considerantur res divinae non tamquam subiectum scientiae, sed tamquam principia subiecti, et talis est theologia, quam philosophi prosequuntur, quae alio nomine metaphysica dicitur. Alia vero, quae ipsas res divinas considerat propter se ipsas ut subiectum scientiae et haec est theologia, quae in sacra Scriptura traditur.
August 25 at 2:04am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, you did admit you were heretical in relation to the RC Church. And I knew to expect plenty of absurd objections when I posted doctrinal errors in TAC's Charter.
August 25 at 2:04am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, that is true, but by analogy. It is wisdom in a qualified sense.
August 25 at 2:05am · Like
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Marina Shea Please let's talk about analogy.
August 25 at 2:06am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure And metaphysics is a science that proceeds by reason, not by faith, and it is commonly refered to as natural theology.
August 25 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, Catherine, metaphysics only treats of the divine as principles of the subject.
August 25 at 2:07am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure It treats of God as the first cause.
August 25 at 2:07am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure And it treats of God in this way, as a science that proceeds by reason, not by belief.
August 25 at 2:08am · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure But sacred theology treats of God by Faith, by belief, as God revealing mysteries about Himself, which is the data of the science of sacred theology, which proceeds reasonably but by faith.
August 25 at 2:09am · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Now TAC asserts that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill the sacred. This is false. The Church confutes that in Her dogmas.
August 25 at 2:09am · Like
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Marina Shea In what way tho
August 25 at 2:10am · Like
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Marina Shea That is the question my friend.
August 25 at 2:10am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure In what way what tho?
August 25 at 2:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is what we need to distinguish metaphysics formally from Sacred Doctrine. Because Sacred Doctrine ttreats of the Divine directly. This is why we start theology, formally, with a consideration of God himself. In The Summa Thomas takes up some questions that can be known by metaphysics, but they can only be known with great difficulty and not much clarity, but Sacred Doctrine allows us to consider being not simply in the mode of learning but in the proper mode of being.
August 25 at 2:10am · Like · 3
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Marina Shea In what way is it necessary
August 25 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman i.e. start with GOd.
August 25 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure OK.
August 25 at 2:11am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure In no way is it necessary.
August 25 at 2:11am · Like
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Marina Shea Dude that's not what i meant. In what sense do you mean necessary. Seriously just answer the question.
August 25 at 2:11am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure In NO WAY is it necessary. This is what the Church teaches.
It is absolutely necessary, is what the college claims.
August 25 at 2:12am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Necessary, meaning that without it, it would not be.
August 25 at 2:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Therefore, metaphysics is necessary to have the fullness of Sacred Doctrine.
August 25 at 2:12am · Like
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Marina Shea I don't think they meant that sense of necessary. There are many senses of the word. Words have nuances. It is what makes them wonderful things. Because sometimes we don't think like Kantians.
August 25 at 2:13am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure As in, sacred theology is necessary to metaphysics, because without it, it would not be in any way useful.
August 25 at 2:13am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's backwards Daniel. Why do you not see that?
August 25 at 2:13am · Like
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Marina Shea No that isn't the only sense of necessity. Which has been said maybe a thousand times.
August 25 at 2:14am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics is not necessary to sacred theology. Sacred theology is necessary to metaphysics. Faith is necessary for reason. God is necessary for being.
August 25 at 2:14am · Edited · Like
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Marina Shea Will you puh-lease answer the question. I'm about to go full blown teen angst here.
August 25 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Marina, I know, there are many ways you can mean "necessary," but this is the particular sense that the College uses it. And this is the sense that the Church uses it when it says that the sacred is necessary for the natural, not the other way around.
August 25 at 2:16am · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure What is the question? How does the Church use necessary? How does TAC use necessary?
August 25 at 2:16am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Faith is imperfect. It is not what is desired. Thus, it passes away. Knowledge is perfect and perfected. We rely on Faith because we do not see. It is knowledge, however, that we seek. This is why you were right Catherine when you said we know all things with reason, i.e. by the rational faculty. We don't come to know all things by reason, but we hold things held by faith as though they were held by reason because we have greater certainty in them.
August 25 at 2:18am · Like · 3
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Marina Shea Ok. How do you know that this is the sense meant, if there are many senses? It seems this requires us to go back to the words and tease out the meaning therein present, not the meaning any of us wants to impose. The words can speak for themselves. If they use the word necessity and there is a charitable interpretation, perhaps we should consider the possibility that the founders, whom are all good men as far as any can tell, noting that God looks at the heart, meant it in that sense.
August 25 at 2:18am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, what the heck are you saying? The Church is infallible in matters of faith and morals. Now I see your error.
August 25 at 2:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Goodnight, Irene.
August 25 at 2:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is why I used the axiom, grace perfects nature. Nature, in this case, knowledge of metaphysics, is perfected by Grace, in this case the light of faith, so that we can attain to the science of Sacred Doctrine.
August 25 at 2:20am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I think Daniel is saying that when we hold things by faith, it is just as certain as if we held them by reason, or even more so. Is that righ, Daniel?
August 25 at 2:20am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, correct.
August 25 at 2:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The troll either un-intentionally or intentionally misreads and misleads.
Marina, try not to engage him.
August 25 at 2:21am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea Daniel- It was this or another episode of Buffy.
August 25 at 2:22am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland [Okay, some people are just not as far along as others (including me). It would help if we all stopped calling each other heretics and trolls, though of course I did this too, partly jokingly.]
August 25 at 2:23am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will comply with your request Catherine.
August 25 at 2:23am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I guess that would take the fun out of everything for everyone though.
August 25 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I only use the term troll as a formal designation to effectively convey to people what they are getting into. I have not and do not call anyone a heretic, because that is beyond my competency to determine. Someone might say something heretical, but I find that it is seldom useful to tell people that.
August 25 at 2:28am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Peregrine, does this sound right?: God reveals himself to us. That revelation is what we study in sacred theology.
But we can also know things about God through natural reason (in a very limited way).
If you agree with that, as you seem to, wouldn't you say that our study of God would be missing a piece if we did not pay attention BOTH to how we know God through revelation, AND how we can know him through reason?
August 25 at 2:34am · Edited · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland No, of course you're not calling people heretics. (Well, not of course... PERHAPS you may have done such a thing in past years.)
August 25 at 3:07am · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland So that's all that necessary means in this case. Not that you NEED to read Aristotle's metaphysics and understand everything he said about oneness and being etc. to know what God has revealed about himself.
August 25 at 2:32am · Edited · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Good woman, Catherine.
August 25 at 2:35am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland [You can all go back to name-calling when I go deal with my insomnia elsewhere.]
August 25 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau You guys are over achievers. You are 263 over 2000.
August 25 at 2:37am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I hope he can here what you are saying, Catherine. The same has been said to him before and to no avail.
August 25 at 2:38am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I thought you were going to bed, Jody!
August 25 at 2:38am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I thought you were too! Just checking in.
August 25 at 2:39am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Not in a way that everyone can understand. I don't know that I have either.
August 25 at 2:39am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps. This same argument has occurred on various threads before.
August 25 at 2:40am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Okay, but at least we're all racking up comments.
August 25 at 2:41am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Which, finally, is what is important.
August 25 at 2:41am · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland Hence the thread renaissances of various stripes.
August 25 at 2:42am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman And to be clear, I think the questions posed by Scott are good questions. I just never have success in engaging him beyond the initial question.
August 25 at 2:42am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz It amazes me that anyone would ignore the necessity for at least the most basic natural knowledge in understanding even one word of scripture. In determining what a term means, who would question, when possible, studying contexts outside of scripture (it is not like biblical Hebrew is the simplest thing)
Maybe some knowledge of what a mustard plant is like can help understanding that parable. Christ used imagery that would require generations of faithful to either study or accept from those that have things outside of revelation.
If in the most basic understanding outside knowledge is presumed, then revelation/scripture/theology cannot be wholly self-contained.
When we go further, we find that Christ is both God and man. True God, true man. Hmm....the concept of person is not in scripture. It is a concept, though, that corresponds with true reality. But not one worked out much before Christianity. So in coming to understand what the Incarnation meant, we had to turn to the light of reason and understand the reality accessible to it more clearly. And in doing so, having an understanding of personhood, we then saw the revealed truth to a greater extent. Call it philosophy, metaphysics, etc, but the greater natural knowledge means a greater understanding of a very basic tenet of the faith. We cannot even begin to articulate "true God, true man" without such aid.
How can anyone honestly doubt the benefits of studying philosophy, and especially metaphysics, for understanding the faith? Metaphysics is the study of being qua being. If one prefers, just as knowledge of the mustard plant gives a greater context to the parable of Christ, so too the knowledge of being qua being cannot but give a greater knowledge of the context of revelation, by shedding light on the very basic principles of His creation.
August 25 at 3:09am · Unlike · 12
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Matthew J. Peterson
August 25 at 3:47am · Like · 10
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Pater Edmund "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.
August 25 at 5:00am · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund I want to get back to John Ruplinger's questions above though. John R: I think a good example of a "hermeneutic of reform in continuity" is Tom Pink's reading of Dignitatis Humanae. Pink shows how there is "continuity and discontinuity at different levels." The continuity is at the level of principles. As Pink shows, the Church has always held that the state has no native right to coerce in matters of religion, that the Church does have this right over the baptized, and that the Church can use the state as a secular arm to do this. The discontinuity is at the level of discipline; the Church in DH decides _as a matter of discipline_ to not make use of a secular arm. See: https://www.academia.edu/.../What_is_the_Catholic...
and:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../on-religious-liberty...
It seems to me that there is nothing arbitrary in this; it is not a trick to impose Pink's own private opinion on the teachings of the Church, it is really an attempt to understand those teachings and their development.
August 25 at 5:09am · Edited · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick http://youtu.be/GB2yiIoEtXw
1080p HD "Good Morning" ~ Singin' in the Rain (1952)
From a recently surfaced 1080p High-Definition digital transfer of Singin' in the Rain (1952). Let's hope Warner decides to release a restored version of thi...
August 25 at 6:36am · Like
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Nina Rachele Oh my goodness, you really broke 2000... nice work kids.
August 25 at 7:10am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nothing to see here.
August 25 at 7:43am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Since so much of revelation was revealed by Aristotle, we therefore hold that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology. The supernatural comes from the natural. Revelation comes from reason. God comes from man.
August 25 at 7:50am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It seems that Faith comes from Reason, therefore metaphysics and reason is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, just as Man is necessary for the fulfillment of God because God comes from Man.
On the contrary...
August 25 at 7:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia I will never forgive any of you for making me catch up on 400 comments.
Let's try a new way of reformulating the same old crap:
To study sacred theology, the Church, in her Extraordinary Magisterium recommends studying St. Thomas.
St. Thomas can't be studied in a vacuum.
Therefore, one needs to study that which St. Thomas's theology requires.
Therefore one should study metaphysics.
But one can't study metaphysics in a vacuum.
Therefore one must study natural theology, and philosophy.
and we have just deduced the TAC curriculum backwards.
Heresy....
August 25 at 8:07am · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure On the contrary, the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, and reason is insufficient for the fulfillment of faith, and the sacred science.
In response to this infallible teaching, TAC alumni claim that a section from the Catholic Encylopedia says the exact opposite of what it really says.
August 25 at 8:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia you keep insisting that.... but you have no evidence, other than Pope Perescott's pronouncement.
August 25 at 8:08am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Everyone here would agree with this "On the contrary, the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology, and reason [alone] is insufficient for the fulfillment of faith, and the sacred science."
I add "alone" because obviously there must be rational or intellectual beings in order for there to be revelation.
This is what TAC teaches, this is what everyone here would agree with. If this is all you are saying, then there is no conflict.
August 25 at 8:17am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia No, Daniel, he is saying that TAC and the founders and the grads, and the people who only went for two years but can make an actual ARGUMENT (I'm looking at you Escalante) claim that reason alone is sufficient.
It is, for the nth time, a straw man
August 25 at 8:21am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I know. I know.
August 25 at 8:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Catherine Ryland has guilted me into addressing the madness again.
August 25 at 8:23am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Behind this Potemkin village of black-robed students and mission-style buildings, dwells the host of rational heresies which proport that reason is necessary for the fulfillment of Faith.
August 25 at 8:27am · Like
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Michael Beitia Says who? Were you there polling people?
August 25 at 8:28am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Can someone have faith without reason?
August 25 at 8:28am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Does faith even make sense without reason?
August 25 at 8:28am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you can go to heaven without theology, however.
August 25 at 8:31am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Perescott, when he's not trollin' he's pollin'
August 25 at 8:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Obviously someone must have the rational faculty to have faith. Obviously, God has no need of the natural order of learning.
However, if one wants to pursue the study of Sacred Theology in a scientific manner, one must reason to do so. Consequently, a solid grasp of the sciences which perfect the intellect and its use are necessary in order to do that well.
Yes.
August 25 at 8:31am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman The study of Sacred Theology is not necessary in order to be saved.
August 25 at 8:32am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so neither is metaphysics, on which Sacred Theology rests, NECESSARILY
August 25 at 8:32am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia to go back to what Peregrott just wrote "reason is necessary for the fulfillment of Faith" is totally wrong. Reason is necessary for the scientific explanation of the faith. This would only be a problem if someone thought that Fulfillment=scientific explanation
August 25 at 8:35am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Yes, precisely Micheal.
August 25 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick How do you address heresies without reason?
August 25 at 8:44am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.
August 25 at 8:44am · Unlike · 9
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Catherine Ryland I also really like how PE quoted Pope John Paul II's words from Fides et Ratio: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.
August 25 at 8:51am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia You know, that's a pretty good quote:
"Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.
August 25 at 8:54am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia (purely parenthetically - I'm still hoping for perfection)
August 25 at 8:55am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman My personal favorite from Fides et Ratio (at least that pertains to this topic) is: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66.
August 25 at 9:17am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia now that's just silly Daniel, can't you see I just posted that?
August 25 at 9:21am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman I am such a silly ass.
August 25 at 9:22am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia of course Peretroll Bonamagisterium would simply read the quote to say that TAC is a hotbed (flowerbed?) of heresy because TAC thinks reason is sufficient
August 25 at 9:28am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia *silly gnostic ass*
August 25 at 9:31am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sure, philosophy aids in the articulation of revelation, just as good grammar does. But sacred theology is fulfilled alone by revelation, and in no way depends on metaphysics. In fact, metaphysics would be impossible without revelation. All this is true, unless you go to TAC, then you believe revelation and Faith comes from Aristotle.
August 25 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Plus, if you go to TAC, odds are you're a complete jerk.
August 25 at 9:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia how do you jive what you just wrote with the 5 times cited encyclical? (not the jerk part, I'll grant you that)
August 25 at 9:41am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia lemme distill:
"Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation."
August 25 at 9:42am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "Philosophy....of being" = metaphysics
August 25 at 9:42am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Now, Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of Faith.
But TAC responds, no, the act of reason is the core of faith and without it, faith would be impossible.
However, the Church teaches that right reason is impossible without grace, and a correct metaphysics is impossible without revelation.
August 25 at 9:47am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, Fides et Ratio is good counsel, but TAC goes off the deep end.
August 25 at 9:48am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Do you like putting words into our mouths?
August 25 at 9:48am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia So you
August 25 at 9:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia just dodge what people ask you?
August 25 at 9:53am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia maybe I figured it out.
"Now, Lumen Fidei teaches that the act of love is the core of Faith."
what the hell does that mean? 'act of love'? what's that? Core? In what respect.
Distinguo distinguo distinguo
August 25 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think more terms have been added to the dance. I thought faith = faith = faith and nothing else was needed. But now faith has something else... Which is Love (or more properly, Charity).
August 25 at 9:58am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia "Fides et Ratio is good counsel"? Is that how you treat the extraordinary magisterium?
August 25 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund To be fair: "it does not suffice occasionally to clip the roots of the brambles, if the ground is not dug deeply so as to check them beginning again to multiply, and if there are not removed their seeds and root causes from which they grow so easily. That is why, since the prolonged study of human philosophy—which God has made empty and foolish, as the Apostle says, when that study lacks the flavouring of divine wisdom and the light of revealed truth—sometimes leads to error rather than to the discovery of the truth, we ordain and rule by this salutary constitution, in order to suppress all occasions of falling into error with respect to the matters referred to above, that from this time onwards none of those in sacred orders, whether religious or seculars or others so committed, when they follow courses in universities or other public institutions, may devote themselves to the study of philosophy or poetry for longer than five years after the study of grammar and dialectic, without their giving some time to the study of theology or pontifical law. Once these five years are past, if someone wishes to sweat over such studies, he may do so only if at the same time, or in some other way, he actively devotes himself to theology or the sacred canons; so that the Lord's priests may find the means, in these holy and useful occupations, for cleansing and healing the infected sources of philosophy and poetry." – Fifth Lateran Council
August 25 at 10:02am · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, Faith without love is dead. It is a broken gong, as St. Paul states. It is not really Faith unless it has love. Abraham's Faith (and He is our Father in Faith) was fulfilled through his act of love of God.
You may have Aristotle, and be a total jerk.
August 25 at 10:03am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's sad they do not teach you about love at TAC.
Just Aristotle, and of course revelation would be impossible without the Philosopher; hence you are a bunch of jerks.
August 25 at 10:04am · Like
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Katie Duda The message about love is clear- second semester junior year!
August 25 at 10:06am · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thank you, Pater Edmund, for that lovely treatise on clipping brambles.
August 25 at 10:06am · Like
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Catherine Ryland What is they say in that damned song played at all the dances? "You can't hurry love
No, you just have to wait
You got to trust, give it time
No matter how long it takes"
August 25 at 10:07am · Edited · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well of course, Katie, the Church teaches that love comes from TAC's second semester in junior year. That's why you guys are the greatest EVER.
August 25 at 10:07am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Phil Colins? He was better when he just played the drums behind Peter Gabriel.
August 25 at 10:08am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I may be a total jerk (though I've never cited Aristoilet on this thread) but you don't seem to be acquitting yourself of jerkness too well either
August 25 at 10:08am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure St. Francis de Sales warns about dancing.
August 25 at 10:08am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Yes, I thought it was heretical somehow.
August 25 at 10:09am · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Does Peregrine never sleep?
August 25 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia St Francis de Sales is Magisterium cathedrae magistralis, Lateran V is extraordinary
August 25 at 10:10am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think dancing may be imprudent and may lead somewhere bad, especially when you consider how you could be praying for the poor souls in purgatory instead. I think that's what St. Francis says in his Intro to the Devout Life... but he did not have the grace to attend TAC or do the swing, which clearly is the pre-emeinent dance of angels. If the Church does not teach this, it should. Because this is what they do at TAC, and TAC is the GREATEST EVER.
August 25 at 10:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia did you read Pater Edmund's quote from Lateran V?
August 25 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Did you ever ponder what a big jerk you sound like?
August 25 at 10:12am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick No one said TAC was the greatest ever and without fault.
August 25 at 10:13am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Fifth Lateran Council makes it clear how flawed philosophy is, and dependent on grace. Do you think this might be why the Church teaches that revelation is necessary for right reason?
August 25 at 10:14am · Like
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Michael Beitia and right reason is necessary for the science of the faith. not for faith, but for the science. jerk
August 25 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda While excessive, this thread is quite a glimpse into the humor of the misunderstanding of the uses of language.
August 25 at 10:16am · Like · 5
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wait a second... Ack never mind... I have a feeling you haven't been reading some of the responses...
August 25 at 10:16am · Like
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Michael Beitia you're a jerk too Duda.
August 25 at 10:17am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Hence the need for freshmen philosophy maybe?
August 25 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure But grace is needed for right reason.
August 25 at 10:23am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Faith is needed for right reason.
August 25 at 10:24am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Faith perfects reason.
August 25 at 10:24am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Faith comes from revelation and grace and assent, not reason.
August 25 at 10:24am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure And revelation takes the form of sacred theology in the sacred science of the Church.
August 25 at 10:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia only because I have special revelation. without God informing me that there is a need to think discursively, I won't do it.
August 25 at 10:26am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics aids sacred science, like a lowly handmaid.
August 25 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics does not stand at the door, thumping her breast, like Kobe Bryant, asserting that she is necessary for sacred theology to be. Metaphysics, in other words, does not act like the typical TAC alum.
August 25 at 10:27am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics does not thump her breast like LeBron James, as the founding persons of TAC have misrepresented her, those reactionaries.
August 25 at 10:30am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Bringing in Grace just makes things confusing. Grace is needed for Grace is needed for Grace is needed for Grace, but Free Will! Thankfully we can accept on faith Grace and Free Will, but without reason Augustine would have failed at bringing down heresies regarding these things.
August 25 at 10:30am · Like
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Catherine Ryland On track for 3000. I can't believe you guys have had several threads of this. You must enjoy it very much.
August 25 at 10:32am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Like a dog to my own vomit, I return to slay trolls
August 25 at 10:33am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Lauren, Grace acts in the human soul prior to an act of free will. The infallible dogma on invincible grace states "There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will."
It is so sad that TAC does not study the Catholic faith.
August 25 at 10:34am · Like
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Catherine Ryland And you, O Peregrine, return to slay dragons and TACers.
August 25 at 10:35am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure And to set the world on fire, with love of Christ and his Blessed Mother, Mary, theotokos, conceived without sin.
August 25 at 10:36am · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think that dog/vomit quote has been cited before. Has anyone noticed that thread is recursive? Has anyone noticed that this thread is recursive?
August 25 at 10:36am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I think it's recursive
August 25 at 10:36am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland I'm glad you have such a noble goal in calling people jerks.
August 25 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I call people jerks out of love all the time.
August 25 at 10:36am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think those who think it is recursive are crass.
August 25 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure It is possible to call someone a jerk out of love. That word is not oustide the ball park. Other words are, though.
August 25 at 10:38am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Like metaphysics?
August 25 at 10:38am · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick And who determines which words can be said out of love and which cannot?
August 25 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Words mean whatever you say they mean. Or else the magisterium.
August 25 at 10:38am · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure There are standards for usage within the English language. There are standards for reason. It is not reasonable to state that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred theology, then back that false statement up with another false statement that theology would be impossible without philosophy. In the order of nature, theology would be impossible without words; but in the order of being, grace perfects nature, not the other way around.
Oops! I've run afoul of the Blue Book!
August 25 at 10:42am · Like
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Edward Langley I thought this quote was interesting: "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66
August 25 at 10:43am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics at TAC fulfills sacred theology which you can study later.
I know the Church says the exact opposite, but I've got to side with TAC on this one.
August 25 at 10:43am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick You really have not been reading the responses have you? Especially that of Daniel Lendman, Joshua Kenz and Pater Edmund
August 25 at 10:44am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, we've seen that quote already, 816 posts ago. Theology would be impossible without words too, but this is in the order of nature, not the order of being.
I know to most TAC alum, Faith would be impossible without your theology seminar, but again this is in the order of nature, not being.
We are Catholics first, alumnists second.
August 25 at 10:45am · Like
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Catherine Ryland How about this. I am going to yell with love. "WITHOUT PHILOSOPHY'S CONTRIBUTION,IT WOULD IN FACT BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS THEOLOGICAL ISSUES such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man."
August 25 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland YES! WORDS ARE NECESSARY TO THEOLOGY.
August 25 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I think we're agreeing.
August 25 at 10:46am · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catherine... without WORDS, it would be impossible to discuss theology. THIS IS IN THE ORDER OF NATURE, NOT BEING. IN THE ORDER OF BEING, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REASON RIGHTLY WITHOUT GRACE AND REVELATION. THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES. TAC TEACHES THE OPPOSITE, HOLDING UP THE ORDER OF NATURE FOR THE ORDER OF BEING AND THUMPING ITS BREAST. IT IS PATHETIC.
August 25 at 10:46am · Like
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Joel HF The call of the cthreadulhu: "That thread is not dead, which can eternal lie. Yet with strange aeons even death may die." To gaze upon it, is to know madness, and to comment, is to never escape.
August 25 at 10:47am · Edited · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Being is another complicated word to toss around. But at least we are getting somewhere with what Josh said about the order of knowing now.
August 25 at 10:48am · Like
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Timothy Moore
August 25 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvhTwefXcMs
I hate Squirrels - UP
Sometimes Squirrels can really be distraction
August 25 at 10:50am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley I'll shorten the quote so you don't miss the important part: "It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66
August 25 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure It is good counsel to study metaphysics, but sacred theology is fulfilled without it. In the order of learning, we would not get far in a theological discussion without first learning a language. But in the order of being, as things are in themselves, as God has made them, revelation and grace fulfill reason, not the other way around.
THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS SOMETHING WE MUST BELIEVE.
It is sad you do not know this, or regard phrases like order of nature and order of being as arbitrary toss around phrases. This discussion, these words and these truths have been around for centuries.
TAC IS TOO BUSY BOASTING TO TAKE PART IN THIS DISCUSSION.
August 25 at 10:51am · Like
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Edward Langley And I might repeat that quote
August 25 at 10:51am · Like
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Edward Langley until you get it.
August 25 at 10:51am · Like
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Edward Langley (which would probably cause this thread to reach some kind of record)
August 25 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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John Herreid Wow, this is still going? Should I crank up the Kajagoogoo and start trying to read it?
August 25 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Back a while ago, Daniel Lendman pointed out that Faith is imperfect as knowledge except with regard to certitude: a claim you had trouble with for some reason. I'd like you to explain how Faith differs from the Beatific Vision and why the latter is more perfect and desirable than the former. I think it might help you see why Sacred Theology depends on reason to flesh out the structure given by the dogmaticly promulgated principles of theology.
August 25 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, sacred theology takes a correct sapiential philosophy for granted, in the order of nature, in the order of learning. This is a correct statement. Just as it takes a correct grammar and language. This does not mean, as TAC wrongly asserts, that metaphysics is necessary for the FULFILLMENT of scred theology.
On the contrary, in the order of being, ontologically and metaphysically, grace and revelation are the only things that are necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology; AND for the fulfillment of reason and a legitimate metaphysics.
THIS IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES AS AN INFALLIBLE DOGMA.
You are twisting it because you have been brainwashed.
August 25 at 10:56am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ed, I don't think he's reading the responses anyways, because Josh Kenz just distinguished the order of being and nature and relation to philosophy and theology.
August 25 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, the Faith of the Church is infallible. The Church is infallible in regards to faith and morals. This is also a dogma of the Church.
August 25 at 10:57am · Like
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John Herreid
August 25 at 10:57am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It also might help you see that a Catholic education might be able to promote the Faith of the students without teaching sacred theology: for example one might call a certain course of studies in theoretical physics a "Catholic education" because it enables one to see that there are no scientific objections to the Faith. In fact, today, such an education might be the best education for a significant portion of students.
August 25 at 10:58am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Lauren, you are dismissing the correctness of my statements because you imagine someone named Josh to have debunked my claim. This is idiocy.
August 25 at 10:58am · Like
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Catherine Ryland We've all been brainwashed by the magisterium.
August 25 at 10:58am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Pereventure, I don't think I've ever denied that, but perhaps I haven't repeated it dogmatically enough for you.
August 25 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Joel HF PB--where does has the Church defined what you claim it teaches? I'd like to see the magisterial statements upon which you base your claims.
August 25 at 10:59am · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick He likes putting words in people's mouths Edward.
August 25 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, you might benefit from knowing that Catholic colleges err when they teach that sacred theology is fulfilled by metaphysics, instead of the deposit of the Faith.
August 25 at 11:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Someone told a joke once which I think fits the situation:
Peregrine doesn't just want to read his own opinions, he wants to read other people repeating his own opinions in their own words.
August 25 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure How did I put words in anyone's mouth? Lauren, you are clearly unable to have a serious discussion. Do you think that order of being is not a legitimate theologival fact?
August 25 at 11:01am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick You just said (or implied) that Ed was saying the church was not infallible with regards to faith and morals and he didn't say anything of that kind!
August 25 at 11:02am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Edward, you have just lost an argument. In the order of being, revelation and grace perfect reason and fulfill sacred theology. This is what the Church teaches. TAC teaches the opposite.
August 25 at 11:02am · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Plus everyone else has used church documents etc to support their arguments. And you have not responded to direct and simple questions.
August 25 at 11:04am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Faith is imperfect. That comes from St. Paul.
August 25 at 11:04am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
August 25 at 11:04am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm still waiting for your essay on the difference between the Beatific Vision and Faith in which you realize that, since Faith is not the Beatific Vision, it leaves room in the speculative order for fulfillment by the discourse of reason.
August 25 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick And I try to make it my mission in life to object to everything that comes out of Ed's mouth, but now it's becoming next to impossible because for once he's actually saying everything simply
August 25 at 11:06am · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I think that's a really roundabout way of saying that you agree with him.
August 25 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Lauren, Ed, above, objected to how I disputed a previous claim that Faith is imperfect as knowledge. Faith is in no way imperfect. The Faith of the Church is infallible. The Church's teaching on Faith is infallible. He is suggesting that it is imperfect in some way because Faith is not reasoned to. This is ridiculous.
besides, this is a dodge. The only issue here is TAC's false claim that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without metaphysics. This statement in the Blue Book is unequivocal, This is utter heresy.
August 25 at 11:07am · Like
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Edward Langley Lauren is worried about encouraging vanity, I think. She also is generally unwilling to admit that I'm ever right.
August 25 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Still waiting on you, PB, for your magesterial sources. Care to cite a text or two?
August 25 at 11:07am · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I Corinthians 13:12 videmus nunc per speculum in enigmate tunc autem facie ad faciem nunc cognosco ex parte tunc autem cognoscam sicut et cognitus sum
August 25 at 11:08am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Joel, you can go look up the dogmas of the Church. If you believe that sacred theology depends on them, and if you are presuming to speak for the sacred science, then you must know where to find these.
August 25 at 11:08am · Like
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Joel HF Peregrine, I don't speak for sacred science, nor do I speak for you. YOU go find texts for your positions.
August 25 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure "The fear of the Lord is wisdom."
"It is not flesh and blood which has revealed these things, but my Father in heaven."
August 25 at 11:10am · Like
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Michael Beitia TAC isn't claiming that sacred theology would be unfulfilled without metaphysics. They are claiming (in line with the non-Scott magisterium) that Sacred theology is impossible without metaphysics
August 25 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh yay! Now we are sola scriptura and taking verses all on their own! Very Catholic thing to do.
August 25 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://memegenerator.net/instance/53763039
Y U disgrace me? | Peregrine
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August 25 at 11:12am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Peregrine Bonaventure Joel, if you call yourself Catholic, you should know the dogmas of the Church. If you have studied theology, you should know the principles of sacred theology.
If TAC is claiming that sacred theology would be impossible without metaphysics, they are clearly wrong. This is the same thing as saying that Faith would be impossible without Reason, or that the supernatural comes from nature.
August 25 at 11:13am · Like
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Edward Langley http://memegenerator.net/instance/53763062
The Peregrine is not amused | Peregrine
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August 25 at 11:13am · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
Catherine Ryland In other words, you can't study anything about what is divinely revealed (=sacred theology) without also studying things about being, person and so on.
August 25 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley So, is your position that "Sacred Theology == Faith"
August 25 at 11:14am · Like
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Edward Langley If not, tell us how they differ.
August 25 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, you can.
No, that is not my position.
August 25 at 11:14am · Like
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Edward Langley How do they differ? What does the notion of "Sacred Theology" add to the gift of faith? Promulgation by the magesterium? Or (GASP) reasoning?
August 25 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Faith is assent to the principles of sacred theology. Faith can also be assent to the principles of natural theology, if those are revealed and in the deposit of the faith. So you do not need to study metaphysics in order to have sacred theology.
August 25 at 11:15am · Like
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Michael Beitia No, the conclusion of your argument is that metaphysics is not necessary for faith. you botched it again
August 25 at 11:16am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theology is the process by which we incorporate tradition into the development of doctrine.
August 25 at 11:16am · Like
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Edward Langley That's a virtus dormitiva definition if I've ever seen one.
August 25 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure You do not need metaphysics for Faith or sacred theology. Not when the principles are revealed. There is an implicit reasonability to this sacred theology, but it does not necessarily follow from metaphysics; however a valid metaphysics necessarily follows from grace and revelation.
August 25 at 11:18am · Like
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Edward Langley (Oh, I forgot that you don't approve of reading either Moliere or Nietzsche)
August 25 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland A what?
August 25 at 11:18am · Like
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John Ruplinger Katherine, have we defined magesterium yet? Magesterially?
August 25 at 11:18am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, you are suceeding in your attempt to sound intelligent, but you are being a fool.
August 25 at 11:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^Freudian projection?!
August 25 at 11:20am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley 'How does opium induce sleep? "By means of a means (faculty)," namely the virtus dormitiva, replies the doctor in Moliere,
Quia est in eo virtus dormitiva,
Cujus est natura sensus assoupire.
But such replies belong to the realm of comedy.' -- Nietzsche, BG&E
August 25 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Thank you.
August 25 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nietsche and Freud are irrelevant to this discussion. So, apparently, are you.
August 25 at 11:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia Plus, Sacred Theology is not a process.
August 25 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Peregrine, the Stand-up Comedian
August 25 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Andrew Simone I'm reminded today why I don't miss this place.
August 25 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger maybe we should start a new thread of agreed upon definitions. Do we have any candidates? We could call it the thread that has no beginning.
August 25 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia thanks, Scott. I am an irrelevant heretical thug. You nailed it
August 25 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, it most certainly is a process. sacred theology is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of grace. And this is the life of the Magisterium as it has unfolded in the fullness of time. You do not know what you are talking about. To say that sacred theology is not a process is to reduce revelation to imminantism, which is another heresy.
August 25 at 11:23am · Like
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Edward Langley I think most of us are just amusing ourselves while we wait for you to answer approximately 500 questions.
August 25 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure You said it.
August 25 at 11:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia STUDYING sacred theology is a process.
August 25 at 11:23am · Like
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Catherine Ryland this thread is sempiternal. It's not possible to have a thread that has no beginning, because then there would be no first comment.
August 25 at 11:23am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia but don't confuse the science and the study of the science
August 25 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theology itself is a process. you are Ed are arrogant imbeciles. Material heretics.
August 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Edward Langley Geometry is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of shape.
August 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Edward Langley Natural Philosophy is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of motion.
August 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Geometry is in no way necessary to the Faith.
August 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Michael Beitia knitting is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of yarn
August 25 at 11:24am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Metaphysics is the process of going from things better known to things newly known and unfolding, in the order of being.
August 25 at 11:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger that was my point Catherine.
August 25 at 11:25am · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Natural philosophy is in no way necessary to sacred theology.
August 25 at 11:25am · Like
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Edward Langley Carpentry is the process of going from things better constructed to things newly constructed and unfolding in the order of wood.
August 25 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics is in no way necessary to sacred theology, in the order of being. This is what the Church teaches. But TAC is smarter than the Magisterium.
August 25 at 11:25am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just illustrating the idiocy of your definition.
August 25 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Edward Langley is a fool in the process of being more foolish, in the order of nature.
August 25 at 11:26am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia oh crap Perescott! You just claimed that Edward's being is his act of existing?!?! Now who's the material heretic!?
August 25 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The process I'm using is known as baculation
August 25 at 11:27am · Like
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Edward Langley I learned it from Aristotle's Topics and Avicenna's metaphysics.
August 25 at 11:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger a non TAC thesis: does the lack of a magesterial definition of magesterium lead to the reform of the eternal reform and the creation of eternal troll dwelling threads?
August 25 at 11:28am · Unlike · 3
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Clayton Brockman Well that escalated quickly. Good job with classing up the discussion.
August 25 at 11:28am · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley "Not every problem, nor every thesis, should be examined, but only one which might puzzle one of those who need argument, not punishment or perception. For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love one's parents or not need punishment, while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need perception." (Topics, I.11)
August 25 at 11:29am · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Saying that scared theology is a process is in no way idiocy. It illustrates that it begins with revealed principles which, in turn, inform metaphysics. It illustrates the error of saying that metaphysics fulfills sacred theology. In fact, the process goes the other way, grace perfecting nature.
August 25 at 11:29am · Like
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Edward Langley We're asking you for a definition of a habit and you're defining an action.
August 25 at 11:30am · Like
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Edward Langley If you had studied Aristotle's Categories better, you might realise your mistake.
August 25 at 11:31am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, you are just being a fool.
August 25 at 11:32am · Like
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John Ruplinger but mb, not only should pb assent to Edward then but also offer latreia. He is a very inconsistent heretic.
August 25 at 11:35am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia still, Scott, no one is saying that metaphysics perfects theology. You keep saying that
August 25 at 11:32am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, TAC states that metaphysics is the fulfillment of sacred theology, and that it is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology.
It is important for Catholic students to develop a theological habit of mind. We do this by understanding how sacred theology works, in the life of the Magisterium.
TACs claim undermines this.
August 25 at 11:34am · Like
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John Ruplinger I blame the magesterium for this entire thread for not defining . . . in this case magesterium. Is it ok then to take a peek at tradition when definitions were not out of touch with times? Or is that too heretical?
August 25 at 11:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The troll (sorry Catherine) makes no sense when he says that Sacred Theology is a process, especially since he has above called it a science. Science does not have motion, otherwise we would not know it, because it would be different, constantly.
Moreover, I will go further than I have before. Since metaphysics is necessary for the study and comprehension and perfection of Sacred Theology, then so also is the philosophy of nature, and logic, and even some measure of all the liberal arts.
August 25 at 11:43am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman There is a distinction between the order of learning and the order of being, but you are using it wrong, Scott.
August 25 at 11:44am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Geometry might not be necessary to faith, but it sure makes understanding faith better.
August 25 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott has already demonstrated above that he does not know or understand the definition of metaphysics or of Sacred Theology. Thus, he confuses the two.
August 25 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland It's really too bad that my interwebs addiction and a deep commitment to continuing this thread has coincided with a love of irrational argument, a severe case of insomnia, and a work deadline that isn't until sometime next week. (And all the usual real-life people I argue with being absent.)
August 25 at 11:47am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman If it is any consolation, your participation on this thread makes it loads more delightful. It also gives a stunning counter-example whenever it is stated that TAC grads are, universally, jerks.
It is hard to argue against that claim with Edward, Beitia and I around.
August 25 at 11:47am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland No, don't worry, I am definitely a jerk too. And most certainly a heretic.
August 25 at 11:48am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think you tried to be a jerk once, Catherine, and we all laughed. Your faults are other.
August 25 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well, I think this thread also proves that the premise isn't convertible.
August 25 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Clayton, I am afraid that this discussion will make poor material for your classes.
August 25 at 11:51am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, your argument is to pretend that you are smarter. It is like a little Potemkin village.
Sacred theology would be impossible without a lot of things. But the Church teaches that without revelation, grace and the sacred science, the sapiential sciences would err. This is our Faith. This is what the Church teaches.
TAC does not teach the Faith. It teaches a reactionary's version of Catholic academia.
August 25 at 11:53am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Roma locuta est. Causa finita est.
August 25 at 11:54am · Like
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Catherine Ryland And you better not think about that.
August 25 at 11:56am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, weren't you the one claiming that order of being is a term being tossed around a few minutes ago?
August 25 at 11:56am · Like
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Edward Langley Mr. Bonaventure, I think you might profit from the Seraphic Doctor's "De reductione artium ad theologiam". When I read it last semester, I remember thinking that it was the blue book before the blue book was a thing.
August 25 at 11:57am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Dude. That is not my argument.
August 25 at 11:57am · Like · 1
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John Haggard I'm just trying to do my part to get this thread to 2500 comments.
August 25 at 11:58am · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure And you are a bunch of jerks. Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred science, when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her Wisdom, is an arrogant fool.
August 25 at 11:59am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Not only you defending such foolishness, you are defending it tooth and nail. Jerks.
August 25 at 11:59am · Like
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Edward Langley Quod proferitur, refero
August 25 at 12:00pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Why do we need to call names again?
August 25 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.
August 25 at 12:02pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, forgive me you arrogant, misinformed Catholic, what is your argument? I'm sorry if I missed it. I must have mistaken it for drivel. But do tell.
August 25 at 12:02pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland You can't get to/reach truths that are solely revealed by God (like the Trinity) with your unaided reason. No one is arguing that.
August 25 at 12:02pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland But you can't consider anything revelation gives us about the Trinity unless you use your reason or rational faculty.
August 25 at 12:04pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman This doesn't make sense:
Anyone who would defend the idea that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of the sacred science, when the Church teaches that all natural theology would err without her Wisdom, is an arrogant fool.
And since, I am already an arrogant jerk, I should let it be known that I am really freaking smart. So, if it doesn't make sense to me, chances are, the problem is yours.
August 25 at 12:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland And reason about immaterial things is metaphysics.
August 25 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the troll confuses "Tool" with "fulfillment" and applies it to TAC
August 25 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Because the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed Catholic.
August 25 at 12:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Jerk, that's no argument.
August 25 at 12:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where does it claim that metaphysics is the "fulfillment"? You keep adding that.
August 25 at 12:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^neither is that^
August 25 at 12:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia jerk
August 25 at 12:06pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure So what Catherine?
Daniel, it is perfectly reasonable. You are incompetent.
August 25 at 12:06pm · Like
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JA Escalante It's awesome that Peregrine is so loyally devoted to TAC that he has consecrated all his waking hours to amusing its alumni
August 25 at 12:07pm · Unlike · 7
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Michael Beitia shhh you'll let him in on our gnosis
August 25 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley '"Omne datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum est, descendens a Patre luminum", Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo capitulo. In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis illuminationis, et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis emanatio. Licet autem omnis illuminatio cognitionis interna sit, possumus tamen rationabiliter distinguere, ut dicamus, quod est lumen exterius, scilicet lumen artis mechanicae; lumen inferius, scilicet lumen cognitionis sensitivae; lumen interius, scilicet lumen cognitionis philosophicae; lumen superius, scilicet lumen gratiae et sacrae Scripturae. Primum lumen illuminat respectu figurae artificialis, secundum respectu formae naturalis, tertium respectu veritatis intellectualis, quartum et ultimum respectu veritatis salutaris.
...
Et sic patet, quomodo "multiformis sapientia Dei", quae lucide traditur in sacra Scriptura, occultatur in omni cognitione et in omni natura. Patet etiam, quomodo omnes cognitiones famulantur theologiae; et ideo ipsa assumit exempla et utitur vocabulis pertinentibus ad omne genus cognitionis. Patet etiam, quam ampla sit via illuminativa, et quomodo in omni re, quae sentitur sive quae cognoscitur, interius lateat ipse Deus. - Et hic est fructus omnium scientiarum, ut in omnibus aedificetur fides, "honorificetur Deus", componantur mores, hauriantur consolationes, quae sunt in unione sponsi et sponsae, quae quidem fit per caritatem, ad quam terminatur tota intentio sacrae Scripturae, et per consequens omnis illuminatio desursum descendens, et sine qua omnis cognitio vana est, quia nunquam pervenitur ad Filium nisi per Spiritum sanctum, qui docet nos omnem veritatem, "qui est benedictus in saecula saeculorum. Amen".
August 25 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This really is a masterful exposition of the order of the intellectual life: http://www.forumromanum.org/liter.../bonaventura/reduct.html
Bonaventura: De reductione artium ad theologiam
www.forumromanum.org
1 "Omne datum optimum et omne donum perfectum desursum est, descendens a Patre luminum", Iacobus in Epistulae suae primo capitulo. In hoc verbo tangitur origo omnis illuminationis, et simul cum hoc insinuatur multiplicis luminis ab illa fontali luce liberalis emanatio. Licet autem omnis illuminatio…
August 25 at 12:09pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Daniel Lendman Given that I have graduated Summa Cum Laud from two graduate institutions...nope. I am not incompetent. I am playing the part of the arrogant jerk, though.
August 25 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Especially this part: "And this is the fruit of all sciences, that in all of them Faith is built up"
August 25 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Brian Gerrity Christendom's library is a nicer building than their church. Goes to show how they are the ones who in fact, value the intellect over the magisterium sacred tradition divine revelation church.
August 25 at 12:11pm · Unlike · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure In para 7 or section 7 of the TAC Charter, the college claims quite falsely that metaphysics is necessary for the fulfillment of sacred theology.
This passage has been quoted and cited about 10 times now.
It is telling how convenient it is for jerks and arrogant fools to ignore facts when it does not match their ignorance.
You do not have the ability to discuss this.
Metaphysics in no way fulfills, informs, completes or perfects sacred theology. Metaphysics in itself would be useless without grace and the guidance of the sacred science.
This is what the Church teaches in Her dogma.
August 25 at 12:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley If that's the case, why does the Tradition use the analogy of the mind to illuminate the doctrine of the Trinity?
August 25 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (The other reason to read the Seraphic Doctor is that his Latin prose is amazing)
August 25 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure In matters of Faith and the sacred science, and the principles thereof, Catholic thinkers go by what the Church teaches, not by what some reactionaries dreamed up in the 60s.
August 25 at 12:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Love that quote, Edward. Is that Bonaventure?
August 25 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Metaphysics IS useless without grace because then it is the highest science w/o qualification. With Sacred Theology it is useful.
August 25 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure, and there is a host of Fathers and Doctors of the Church who use the various philosophical theories of the mind to illumine the doctrine of the Trinity.
August 25 at 12:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley John R, yes.
August 25 at 12:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A queen can't do anything without servants.
August 25 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante do I really have to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia again
August 25 at 12:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, I think it's time to repeat Fides et Ratio.
August 25 at 12:19pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Because you are stuck in the previous millenium and you do not know what you are talking about because you desire first to seem intelligent but come across as an arrogant fool.
August 25 at 12:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man. This is no less true of the different themes of moral theology, which employ concepts such as the moral law, conscience, freedom, personal responsibility and guilt, which are in part defined by philosophical ethics. It is necessary therefore that the mind of the believer acquire a natural, consistent and true knowledge of created realities—the world and man himself—which are also the object of divine Revelation. Still more, reason must be able to articulate this knowledge in concept and argument. Speculative dogmatic theology thus presupposes and implies a philosophy of the human being, the world and, more radically, of being, which has objective truth as its foundation." — Pope St John Paul II, Fides et Ratio, 66
August 25 at 12:20pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Arrogant, maybe. Not a fool.
August 25 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
August 25 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger what he says there underlies some things I have said herein. Have you a translation for the benefit of the rest? (Faith illuminates all things. Our assent is liberating. Dissent enslaves.)
August 25 at 12:20pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Peregrine, do you know who the "innovatores" are? Let me give you a hint, the Church doesn't consider that term to be complimentary.
August 25 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland P.S. We hit 2500 a while back. Did anyone already mention that?
August 25 at 12:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Catholic Encyclopedia and Faith and Reason do not contradict the Churches dogma on grace perfecting nature and revelation being necessary for all knowledge.
TAC does.
August 25 at 12:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Unfortunately, I do not, John R.
August 25 at 12:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have already explained the grace perfecting nature bit. Do I need to do it again?
August 25 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland No, no, you have to be stuck in an even more previous millenium.
August 25 at 12:21pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Edward, you are an arrogant boy who lacks the skill and authority to make such judgements.
August 25 at 12:22pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland That is an ad hominem statement.
August 25 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley "Without philosophy's contribution, it would in fact be impossible to discuss theological issues such as, for example, the use of language to speak about God, the personal relations within the Trinity, God's creative activity in the world, the relationship between God and man, or Christ's identity as true God and true man."
So, what JPII says is that, without philosophy we cannot discuss certain theological issues such as:
1) the use of language to speak about God
2) the personal relations within the Trinity
3) God's creative activity in the world
4) the relationship between God and man
5) Christ's identity as true God and true man.
Well, I guess that means that philosophy "in no way fulfills, informs, completes or perfects sacred theology." It must be the case that discussing these issues is completely irrelevant to Sacred Theology.
August 25 at 12:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley has one of the finest and clearest minds I have ever encountered.
August 25 at 12:24pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Catherine havent you figured this out? Peregrine "answers" all arguments by simply denying them, and his other move is ad hominem. He's only got two
August 25 at 12:24pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I admit that I lack the skill to make judgments, that's a long hard road to travel: I've barely begun deciding how to judge logical and mathematical problems, to say nothing about natural philosophy, metaphysics and sacra doctrina.
August 25 at 12:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I suppose I only have authority to make such judgments when dealing with my son.
August 25 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So, I like what I said about grace perfecting nature, so I will say it again:
Grace, in this case faith, perfects nature, in this case metaphysics. This is where babies come fro... I mean, this is where Sacred Theology comes from.
August 25 at 12:26pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Grace perfecting nature. Revelation perfecting reason. Sacred theology perfecting metaphysics, not the other way around. You cannot study theology without studying the Church and Her dogmas.
It is impossible to study this without that underscores the implicit reasonability. It does not mean you have to read Aristotle to get sacred theology right.
TAC gets it very wrong.
August 25 at 12:27pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, grace does not perfect metaphysics. You make it sound like if you pray and attend Mass, God will give you grace to get metaphysics right and fulfill sacred theology. In fact, this is what the founders of TAC tell you.
in fact, the sacred science perfects metaphysics, the higher perfecting the lower, so that it is useful. This is why you should study more doctrine at TAC.
Again, this is what the Church teaches de fidei.
TAC gets it wrong.
August 25 at 12:29pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland No you certainly don't. That is not what anyone is saying.
August 25 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Okay, imagine this. Imagine there was nothing to perfect. So, in this case, no metaphysics. Okay, now what would faith do? There is nothing to perfect, so there is no grace operating, so there is no Sacred Theology and it all goes to pot.
August 25 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Distinguish the speculative and practical orders:
In the practical order, Faith is all that is necessary for the intellect, since good action doesn't require one to know why what one is doing is the right thing to do: all one needs is certitude about the right course of action.
In the speculative order, Faith helps but cannot suffice because when the intellect knows _that_ something is true it seeks to know _why_ it is true. Ultimately, that "why" is hidden in this life "underneath the veil" but we can approximate it by calling upon the aid of philosophy.
You would be on much firmer ground if you deny that Sacred Theology is a speculative science: that is, after all, the position of Albert the Great, Bonaventure, Scotus and the Franciscan school. But if you admit that there is a speculative science of Sacred Theology, faith cannot suffice for the perfection of that science.
August 25 at 12:31pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Scott. you have so many intelligent, thoughtful, patient, and well-read people, arguing against you.
Does that give you any pause?
August 25 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele Having gone to TAC, it was probably inevitable that this fascinating monstrosity of a Scott Pilgrim Versus TAC would make it on to my news feed, despite my not knowing Mr. Peterson. Since I don't want to re-read a threat that looks longer and even more convoluted than the City of God, can someone explain:
1. Who is "Peregrine Bonaventure"? (maybe you can!)
2. What is his connection to TAC?
3. Why he is obsessed TAC including metaphysics in the curriculum?
4. Whether he is employed or has a life outside of this thread?
August 25 at 12:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley God's grace is primarily concerned with the practical order, since he gives us grace to save us. So, it's right to say that metaphysics doesn't percfect faith in that order. But it's foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause: go that route and you turn into Kierkegaard.
August 25 at 12:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Dylan
1) he's Scott Weinberg, I think, a troll who lives on stalking TACers.
2) he tried freshman year repeatedly
3) he thinks he's the pope
4) ...
August 25 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Dylan,
Peregrine Bonaventure is Scott Weinberg
He was asked to leave TAC some years ago by Dr. Kaiser. He finished up his education at Christendom.
August 25 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Beat me, Edward.
August 25 at 12:34pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele Ah. Thanks. This makes more sense now.
August 25 at 12:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I said this over 2,000 comments ago, so it bears repeating.
TAC is the best!!!
I am the best!!!!
USA! USA! USA!
August 25 at 12:36pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley (taking best inclusively to mean "that than which there is no greater")
August 25 at 12:36pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Did you just say Daniel is fat?
August 25 at 12:37pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Oh and if anyone is interested in Zoroastrianism (I am.) This is cool:
http://kaogu.net.cn/.../Academic.../2014/0815/47198.html
Chinese Archaeology
kaogu.net.cn
August 25 at 12:37pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, you state that it is "foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause." This completely contradicts Scripture. You are an arrogant fool. You have lost this argument.
Anyone would be blessed to not go to TAC.
And why do you continue to assert that I am someone who I am not. I know Scot Weinberg. He finished his education with a masters degree in Literature and Rhetoric at CUA.
August 25 at 12:38pm · Like
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JA Escalante ^ ^ Thanks for the hat tip, Daniel! Geez
August 25 at 12:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That's where I found it!
August 25 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele If you aren't that one guy, then who are you?
August 25 at 12:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry JA Escalante, I couldn't remember who had posted the article..
August 25 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante I was just joshing you anyhow
August 25 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, just and FYI, no where in Scripture does it say that Faith satisfies man's desire to know the cause.
August 25 at 12:40pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Faith pushes us to go beyond. We long to see The Cause, who is Love Himself.
August 25 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley 'Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, you state that it is "foolish to think that faith can satisfy man's desire to know the cause." This completely contradicts Scripture. You are an arrogant fool. You have lost this argument.'
If this were so, then who would need the Beatific Vision?
August 25 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele And Peregrine/Scott/Whoever You Are, could you do me the small favor of laying your argument out in a clear, logical fashion? At the moment, you seem to resemble the people who stand on street corners with megaphones yelling gibberish about heaven and hell rather than someone who claims to understand the correct method to study theology?
August 25 at 12:42pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, just for kicks, I hereby declare that Peregrine NottheSeraphicDoctor has lost the argument.
August 25 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Dylan, you have no idea what you are asking for. But, if he won't, I will dive back into the abyss and pull them up for you.
August 25 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and per our conversation above, we could replace second semester Senior year lab with this!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../measure-speed-of-light...
Joel HF, Pater Edmund, Catherine Ryland
Here's How To Calculate The Speed Of Light In Your Own Home
www.huffingtonpost.com
You may think your microwave is good only for making popcorn or heating up last night's leftovers. But with a big chocolate bar and a little ingenuity, you can use use your microwave to calculate the speed of light. "It's possible to measure ...
August 25 at 12:44pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Ladies and gents, 3000 is within our grasp!
August 25 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, it is by grace that we come to Beatitude, not reason.
Your assertions are almost unbelievable.
August 25 at 12:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger my favorite quote was of the Seraphic doctor by Edward. Bonaventure wins! Argumentum finitum est. Bonaventura locutus est.
August 25 at 12:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I explicitly said that i.e. "in the practical order . . ."
August 25 at 12:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley Unless you think that we are saved by the perfection of our speculative intellect.
August 25 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Brian Gerrity Here's my summary of the Peregrine argument to this point.
TAC is a heresy factory.
You are all products TAC.
Therefore you are all heretics.
Quod erat demonstrandum, losers!!!
August 25 at 12:49pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, I have laid out the argument 15 times now. Surely, you are being disingenuous.
TAC claims that metaphysics is necessary to fulfill sacred theology. These are the words TAC uses.
The Church teaches de fidei that the opposite is true. TAC gets it wrong. This leads to intellectual imperfection, arrogance, etc.
I am glad I did not go to TAC.
This is the argument.
August 25 at 12:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Actually i think some of pb's concern's might be corroborated if pb would listen and engage in discussion. IE. Corrobated in the bonaventure quote.
August 25 at 12:51pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ed, it doesn't matter what order you are talking about. When you deny that man is saved and perfected by supernatural grace, when you deny that everything in nature is perfected by grace, you are talking jibberish.
August 25 at 12:53pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Blue Book quote:
"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology."
August 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, here again is the argument.
TAC teaches that metaphysics is necessary to perfect sacred theology.
This claim is false. This claim is the contrary of the Catholic dogma on sacred theology and revelation.
TAC teaches a heresy.
Its students are crass.
I am very lucky I did not go there.
August 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, the quote is false. It contradicts the Faith.
August 25 at 12:56pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Full development certainly does not mean perfection.
August 25 at 12:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger long ago now found two causes of all the fuss: one,the magesterium no longer using definitions and secondly tac's own unorthodox mutant producing biochemistry: heresy petri dish + substance d + pb = ptacd troll
August 25 at 12:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
August 25 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley What do you think of that O-One-who-is-not-the-Seraphic-Doctor?
August 25 at 1:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I believe this is the text Scott is referencing:
"But, as theology itself teaches, there is a knowledge of God and divine things which proceeds in the natural light of human reason. This knowledge, traditionally named metaphysics, or first philosophy, is also an essential part of liberal education, because it is necessary for the full development of theology."
-BK VII of the On Equal Footing to the Infallible Magesteirum Blue Book
August 25 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Shoot! I included the whole title!! I have given away the game guys. Sorry.
August 25 at 1:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley I want Peregrine's opinion on this: "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
August 25 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphysics is not necessary for the perfection of theology. Natural theology is not necessary for the full development of the sacred science.
The contrary is true.
Hence, without knowledge of what the Church teaches in Her dogmatic theology, you err in your metaphysics.
This is the error of TAC.
You presume to understand the higher science, without studying it and the dogmas of the Church, while advancing boldly on a flawed metaphysical path.
This leads to arrogance and foolishness.
August 25 at 1:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially the "right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things"
August 25 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante "full development" isn't "intrinsic perfection"
August 25 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante it's meant in the sense of "articulation as sacred science". unless you're committed to tendentious reading
August 25 at 1:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Even matter is necessary for form (of a material substance) to be properly fulfilled.
August 25 at 1:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott would know that if he studied the philosophy of Nature.
August 25 at 1:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure You need grace to reason correctly, Edward. Then, and only then, is there a synthesis.
Thomas seemed reasonably to err in Faith on more than one subject.
But in the sciences, the sacred science brings metaphysics to completion. Not the other way around.
August 25 at 1:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Do you think my quote is true?
August 25 at 1:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
August 25 at 1:06pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante As I've said over and over, theology is not constituted by metaphysics plus revelation in a partim/partim relation. In a way, theology does presuppose the truths of metaphysics and even carries them within itself, but *not* in the fully articulate forms of science. Thus, theology needs metaphysics to articulate itself *as a science*. This is what the citations I've given all say, and what I say, and what TAC says.
August 25 at 1:07pm · Like · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Full development is the same thing as perfection. But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred science. It might seem like this historically, but this would be revisionist. Sacred theology has always guided and perfected metaphysics. This is why you need to study more doctrine.
August 25 at 1:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley You haven't answered my question, Peregrine
August 25 at 1:08pm · Like
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JA Escalante Full development is not the same thing as *intrinsic* perfection. It is a sort of accidental perfection, articulation as a discursive science.
August 25 at 1:09pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?
August 25 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is why I used the matter form analogy.
August 25 at 1:09pm · Like
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JA Escalante wow I never thought in my life that the words "this is what I say, and this is what TAC says" would ever be uttered by me
August 25 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, the college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This underscores the pedagogy of the college. It is a false and erroneous teaching method, because it produces flawed conclusions. It prodices flawed conclusions because, as the Church teaches, the sacred science perfects metaphysics.
August 25 at 1:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, I think you are being ignored.
August 25 at 1:11pm · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
August 25 at 1:11pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger i can not even imagine what pb is saying anymore. How many ways\ times and with how many authorities can one make the same distinction? Even Meno would have grasped it by now. Does this prove (in the concrete as Newman might say) my opinining long ago that theology can be dangerous for a layman?
August 25 at 1:12pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
August 25 at 1:12pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling
August 25 at 1:12pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.
August 25 at 1:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.
August 25 at 1:14pm · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, you are the one who is not responding.
August 25 at 1:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.
August 25 at 1:14pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Scott, the appropriate response is silence.
August 25 at 1:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or recant?
August 25 at 1:15pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's false Edward, and you take Vat I out of context. Right reason is an effect of assent to Faith, which is clearly the foundation of the Faith.
August 25 at 1:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, you should be a part of this.
August 25 at 1:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, that wasn't one of the 2 options.
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If he doesn't recant, I believe the conditions for formal heresy are met. In which case, we should get out our steaks.
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante so is Peregrine a Fideist?
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante is that what they do at Christendom?
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yep.
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante I see.
August 25 at 1:16pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Foundation of the Faith is assent to God's revealed Word. It is not a valid syllogism, Edward. You are misguided.
Sorry.
August 25 at 1:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Here is context:
The perpetual agreement of the catholic church has maintained and maintains this too: that
there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct
not only as regards its source, but also as regards its object. With regard to the source,
we know at the one level by natural reason, at the other level by divine faith. With regard to the object,
besides those things to which natural reason can attain, there are proposed for our belief mysteries hidden in God
which, unless they are divinely revealed, are incapable of being known. Wherefore, when the Apostle, who witnesses that God was known to the gentiles from created things29, comes to treat of the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ30, he declares: We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this. God has revealed it to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God31. And the Only-begotten himself, in his confession to the Father, acknowledges that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to the little ones32. Now reason,
does indeed
when it seeks persistently, piously and soberly, achieve
by God's gift some understanding,
and that most profitable, of the mysteries,
whether by analogy from what it knows naturally, or from the connexion of these mysteries
with one another and with the final end of humanity;
but reason
is never rendered capable of penetrating these mysteries in the way in which it penetrates those truths which form its proper object. For
the divine mysteries, by their very nature, so far surpass the created understanding that, even when a revelation has been given and accepted by faith, they remain covered by the veil of that same faith and wrapped, as it were, in a certain obscurity, as long as in this mortal life we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, and not by sight33. Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since
it is the same God
who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason. God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.
The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either
the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason. Therefore we define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally false34. Furthermore the church which,
together with its apostolic office of teaching, has received the charge of preserving the deposit of faith, has
by divine appointment
the right and duty of condemning what wrongly passes for knowledge, lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty deceit35. Hence all faithful Christians
are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith,
particularly if they have been condemned by the church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for
on the one hand right reason
established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith
delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds. Hence, so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways. For
she is neither ignorant nor contemptuous of the advantages which derive from this source for human life, rather she acknowledges that those things flow from God, the lord of sciences, and, if they are properly used, lead to God by the help of his grace. Nor does the church forbid these studies to employ, each within its own area, its own proper principles and method:
but while she admits this just freedom, she takes particular care that they do not
become infected with errors by conflicting with divine teaching, or, by going beyond their proper limits, intrude upon what belongs to faith and engender confusion. For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward
not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated. Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.
May understanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding.
August 25 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante take THAT, Vatican I !
August 25 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure We'll can talk about more TAC errors later.
Gotta go.
August 25 at 1:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is close enough to silence, I suppose.
August 25 at 1:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews It would explain how he knows TAC is a factory of heretics. As he is one......
August 25 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
4. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou be made like him.
5. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.
-- Proverbs, 26
August 25 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Ooh look, a contradiction.
August 25 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Now that he is gone, it might have been this sort of thing that he is thinking TAC says:
"For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward
not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.
August 25 at 1:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But here is where I think that JA Escalante's distinction and my matter form analogy come in.
August 25 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I saw that. That, however, seems to operate at the level of principles.
August 25 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, this might be what you were saying too.
August 25 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is, the principles are more perfect than the rest of the science since they contain the whole science.
August 25 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think you are right.
August 25 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante yes I said that earlier, about how theology carries or presupposes the truths of metaphysics principially within itself, but not in the form of articulate science
August 25 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I should have broken up that VI quote.
August 25 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante clearly "full development" is being used by TAC in the Newmanian sense, and nowhere is it being asserted that without metaphysics theology is doomed to intrinsic imperfection
August 25 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I could have added more to the comment count.
August 25 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Reason guided by God's grace is right reason and this can serve as a basis of Faith, is what Vat I says.
BTW, we wouldn't be a 3000 posts if you did not recognise that objections to TAC are morally and scientifically valid.
August 25 at 1:26pm · Like
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JA Escalante ^another fake goodbye
August 25 at 1:26pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
August 25 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I agree, your questions are good and important. I just want you to use your reason and get beyond the questions once in a while.
August 25 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i like to translate the word meno as "i am stuck". I wonder if its the origin of stick in the mud. Mud flinging stick in the mud. O tempora o mores!
August 25 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have benefited greatly from thinking about this sort of question, but it just gets to be a little boring saying the same thing. At least you could bring to bear different arguments to obstinately hold your position.
August 25 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger what are his good assertions?
August 25 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think I'd agree that it is reason guided by God's grace that is right reason. That makes sense to me.
August 25 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger me too Daniel. BUT i only get the reasoned side.
August 25 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, I suppose it is only really one assertion of his. Scott says this:
"the college says that you need to study metaphysics because this is necessary for the full development of sacred theology. This underscores the pedagogy of the college. It is a false and erroneous teaching method, because it produces flawed conclusions. It prodices flawed conclusions because, as the Church teaches, the sacred science perfects metaphysics."
I think that raises some good questions.
August 25 at 1:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The problem is that he has stated that same thing in response to nearly every argument.
August 25 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman When he doesn't do that he does:
"The Foundation of the Faith is assent to God's revealed Word. It is not a valid syllogism, Edward. You are misguided."
and
"Full development is the same thing as perfection. But metaphysics does not even contribute to the partial development of the sacred science. It might seem like this historically, but this would be revisionist. Sacred theology has always guided and perfected metaphysics. This is why you need to study more doctrine."
and
"Because the only reasonable explanation you maintain such false pretences is because you are an arrogant jerk of a misinformed Catholic."
etc.
August 25 at 1:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger if he works at it, i see potential for a modern Zeno there. EDIT i only meant the prior post. The latter reveal teansy perhaps flaws in logic. Yowsers!
August 25 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, we're just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling units
August 25 at 1:36pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger good questions buried in a heap of fallacies maybe.
August 25 at 1:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland "no, we're just bored and modern life separates the individual into atomistic trolling units" tha't's what I've been thinking. Loneliness that isn't really helped by real contact with other people, and a desire for notifications. (I speak of myself here of course, unless others find it applies to them.)
August 25 at 1:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia they are excellent questions, but they never get beyond that.
August 25 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia And I'm STILL waiting for perfection (8128)
August 25 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and Catherine, I'm at work now, blowing it off
August 25 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Or this: «It is with no less deceit, venerable brothers, that other enemies of divine revelation, with reckless and sacrilegious effrontery, want to import the doctrine of human progress into the Catholic religion. They extol it with the highest praise, as if religion itself were not of God but the work of men, or a philosophical discovery which can be perfected by human means. The charge which Tertullian justly made against the philosophers of his own time "who brought forward a Stoic and a Platonic and a Dialectical Christianity"[2] can very aptly apply to those men who rave so pitiably. Our holy religion was not invented by human reason, but was most mercifully revealed by God; therefore, one can quite easily understand that religion itself acquires all its power from the authority of God who made the revelation, and that it can never be arrived at or perfected by human reason. In order not to be deceived and go astray in a matter of such great importance, human reason should indeed carefully investigate the fact of divine revelation. Having done this, one would be definitely convinced that God has spoken and therefore would show Him rational obedience, as the Apostle very wisely teaches.[3] For who can possibly not know that all faith should be given to the words of God and that it is in the fullest agreement with reason itself to accept and strongly support doctrines which it has determined to have been revealed by God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived?»
August 25 at 1:45pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger pater i will respond to your much above post. Later.
August 25 at 1:47pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure If TAC did not believe that sacred theology is doomed without metaphysics, and if it believed as the Church teaches that metaphysics is doomed without grace and revelation and the doctrinally imbued sacred science of the Church... Then why do they say that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of sacred theology, and why do they not teach the principles of the Faith?
Clearly the founders were reactionary, and agenda and ideologically driven.
August 25 at 1:47pm · Like
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Joel HF Some one should inform the real Scott Weinberg that this pb fellow, who definitely isn't SW, had been using a picture of Weinberg as his profile pic.
August 25 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Get out the bell, book and candle
August 25 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Joel, some time ago several of us attempted rational discourse with this SW fellow on the infinitely patient FerrierFB. JAson has it right. No point
August 25 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger no i never got that courtesy Edward
August 25 at 1:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I wonder what Matthew J. Peterson's Klout score is now?
August 25 at 1:51pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Just want to give a late high five to Edward Langley for the Vatican 1 quote. (Only time I will ever do so too )
August 25 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman hmm... Catherine Ryland do you see how he does things?
August 25 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman TAC says it because:
"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for
on the one hand right reason
established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith
delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds. Hence, so far is the church from hindering the development of human arts and studies, that in fact she assists and promotes them in many ways."
August 25 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and because it is true.
August 25 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger WOULD someone list his better questions. I am at an impass guessing. please and only if u have time
August 25 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Hey, if I could have a face to face with these 210 participants I would. It does not mean the dialogue is meaningless. It is important to hash this out, not that the college will change its curriculum, but maybe its students will have a more informed understanding of the flaws of their curriculum -- for they go beyond limitations and become flaws -- and better appreciation of the Catholic Faith. In the academic life, sacred theology -- based on what the Church teaches -- sets the soul free and is the completion of Catholic liberal education.
The quotation from Pater Edmund is good. Every Catholic student should think about that.
August 25 at 2:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And he calls me arrogant?
August 25 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You think that anything that TAC teaches or that we have been saying here contradicts the quote from Pater Edmund?!?!?
August 25 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think we should all meet up at a bar somewhere in DC and have a fistfight to resolve the dispute
August 25 at 2:04pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley ... that is have a conversation over beer.
August 25 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Maybe Scott, you should find out who said the above quote by Pater Edmund and find out its proper context.
August 25 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This happens in the previous paragraph:
"Without doubt, nothing more insane than such a doctrine, nothing more impious or more opposed to reason itself could be devised. For although faith is above reason, no real disagreement or opposition can ever be found between them; this is because both of them come from the same greatest source of unchanging and eternal truth, God. They give such reciprocal help to each other that true reason shows, maintains and protects the truth of the faith, while faith frees reason from all errors and wondrously enlightens, strengthens and perfects reason with the knowledge of divine matters."
August 25 at 2:07pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger @ 1000 in a day. Pausing to appreciate the geometric increase. (Is that cartesian or euclidean?)
August 25 at 2:08pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I think it is Francois de Viete
August 25 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it is a square-squared-cube
August 25 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think that's why modern algebraic notation got popular, ever try to draw any of Viete's figures with a number larger than 3?
August 25 at 2:17pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
August 25 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is hard.
August 25 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I tried 5 once and quickly gave up
August 25 at 2:19pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, quote below states that faith perfects reason. This means, without faith, metaphysics is flawed. This does not mean that God gives TAC students grace so that they have perfect reason. I think you think this. This is effectively how TAC teaches. What this means is through a study of sacred theology, and the sacred science of the Church, and through an outlay of Her dogmas, a theological habit of mind is developed. This is liberal education. This is not what TAC proposes, because it does not teach sacred theology. And not teaching it, or allowing its students to understand how Her teachings operate, it moves ahead with a flawed metaphysics. This is self-evident in the principles of its Charter and in the holes in its curriculum.
August 25 at 2:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia says you
August 25 at 2:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger dont know Viete. I prefer now the hotdog and smiley face symbols long above mentioned. If it cant be done so i suspect its understandability.
August 25 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he's the founder of modern algebra. Pre-dates Descartes
August 25 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland yes, but he's not in the program, ergo he doesn't exist.
August 25 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia beautiful stuff... but x^4 is a "squared-square" x^5 is a "Squared-cube" and so on. You can draw it pretty easily with powers of 2
August 25 at 2:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia THEY CUT VIETE!?
August 25 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bastards. Perescott is right. TAC's curriculum is screwed
August 25 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No. Viete is in the program.
August 25 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Viete was there in 2012.
August 25 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, I think you had the wrong tutor.
August 25 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia thanks, Daniel..... whew..... there is no way to study the fullness of Sacred Theology without Viete
August 25 at 2:32pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Did Viette merge geometry and arithmetic? Or was that Descartes?
August 25 at 2:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Viete started it. Also nascent algebraic notation
August 25 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he standardized using certain letters for constants, and others for variables
August 25 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So what exactly is a Fideist? Aside from the obvious part. (Alex concluded that our friend was one a few days ago, but now I want some clarity as to what exactly that means and how the Church has responded)
August 25 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Okay, maybe the name sounds vaguely familiar. No, not really. I forget most things, and I wanted to make a Descartes joke.
August 25 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Oh dear. I'm going to have to give this terrible thread up for lent.
August 25 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Lent? I was going to try for advent
August 25 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Well, it's a good thing lent is several months away.
August 25 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Holy moly, this thread is still going?!?!
August 25 at 2:42pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Yeah, you missed 2000 scintillating points of interest
August 25 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Yeah I bet. Is the troll dead yet?
August 25 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Define "going"
August 25 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no, alive and well maybe 30 up from here
August 25 at 2:45pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well, currently recovering from Ed's Vatican I quote and smack down.
August 25 at 2:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger is that what votis refers to? Hmmm. . . disappearing papal decrees.
August 25 at 2:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure "Nor do I seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe that I may understand. For this, too, I believe, that, unless I first believe, I shall not understand." -- St. Anselm
August 25 at 3:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^Magisterium cathedrae magistralis^
August 25 at 3:22pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland JUST IN! Here's the official word. Absolutely no saints at TAC or Christendom. Not even mentioned. Because of our incessant bickering, we are left entirely out of the book of life. https://app.box.com/s/1561ypqh86kf3vq3mlpx
BC_Saints.jpg - File Shared from Box
app.box.com
August 25 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger i think we have a couple popes though.
August 25 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I wonder how Peregrine gets along with Pope Michael.
August 25 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Saints!? Now who's trying to immanentize the eschaton......
August 25 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Comments in the vertical axis, time (in seconds) in the horizontal axis:
August 25 at 3:40pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Looks like exponential growth to me.
August 25 at 3:40pm · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell At this rate we'll hit 3,000 before 12 midnight tonight.
August 25 at 3:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is past behavior a predictor of future success? Cause I've got Mass tonight at 7
August 25 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland NOW I remember Viete. He was less terrifying than the other blokes.
August 25 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Again?
August 25 at 3:43pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I thought you just went yesterday.
August 25 at 3:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The next power of two is 4096
August 25 at 3:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but is 4096-1 prime?
August 25 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No: 4095 / 5 = 819 * 5
August 25 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia every 25th of the month there's a votive Mass in honor of the Divine Infant King at my parish
August 25 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it lacks the root of perfection....
August 25 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Having read every comment on this thread so far, I am amazed at your guys' patience to argue to the same point over and over again to someone who you know won't listen. That said, he has provoked a number of good and informative comments from you guys that have made this thread (almost) worth the time spent on it. I admire your guys' patience; I get frustrated just reading it.
August 25 at 3:46pm · Like · 7
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Edward Langley 4095 = 3 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 13
August 25 at 3:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, you graph is the coolest thing I have yet seen on this thread.
August 25 at 3:47pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 33550336 is the fifth.... that means 8191 is the next root of perfection
August 25 at 3:47pm · Like
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Sean Robertson And this thread can't end until...
http://youtu.be/SiMHTK15Pik
Its Over 9000!!! [Original Video and Audio]
The classic, its over 9000!!! video without anything extra.
August 25 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson So we've got some work to do.
August 25 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, bit now I have posted the coolest thing on this thread that is about theology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDmeqSzvIFs
Emo Philips - Golden gate bridge (1987, official sub ita)
Emo Philips racconta il tentativo di salvare un aspirante suicida sul Golden gate Bridge di San Francisco. Traduzione ufficiale dei ComedySubs (www.comedysub...
August 25 at 3:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Anything is of faith in two ways; directly, where any truth comes to us principally as divinely taught, as the trinity and unity of God, the Incarnation of the Son, and the like; and concerning these truths a false opinion of itself involves heresy, especially if it be held obstinately. A thing is of faith, indirectly, if the denial of it involves as a consequence something against faith; as for instance if anyone said that Samuel was not the son of Elcana, for it follows that the divine Scripture would be false. Concerning such things anyone may have a false opinion without danger of heresy, before the matter has been considered or settled as involving consequences against faith, and particularly if no obstinacy be shown; whereas when it is manifest, and especially if the Church has decided that consequences follow against faith, then the error cannot be free from heresy. For this reason many things are now considered as heretical which were formerly not so considered, as their consequences are now more manifest." I.32 a.4 co.
August 25 at 3:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Anyways, I have to run, Peregrine seems to have been out-Magisteriumed.
August 25 at 3:56pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure "In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order."
This is the Church's infallible teaching on the necessity of Revelation to know truths of the metaphysical order.
Now, some maintain that "natural theology" is necessary for the fullness of the sacred, and in so doing they provide instruction in metaphysics without knowledge of the sacred principles of revelation under the authority of the Church.
How foolish. This would be like teaching theology in a Catholic college without teaching the fullness of what the Church teaches! It would be like shooting an arrow without aim.
August 25 at 3:56pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Just a word to the wise on all sides (and to add to the number of comments, especially repetitive ones). It makes your opponent seem far more benighted if he is the only one making ad hominem comments.
August 25 at 3:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Where's the magisterial source of that, Peregrine? All I can find are quotations from Ott.
August 25 at 4:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think Warren Carroll is probably a Saint. He tethered instruction to the fullness of the teaching Church, and has given many students great joy and purpose in their studies.
August 25 at 4:00pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland P.S. The above graphic is a JOKE! AND my claim there are no saints from our colleges is a joke too.
August 25 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't use Ott or Denzinger. The theological exegesis of doctrine is fascinating, and is often not conveyed in these sources. Doctrine comes from the life of the Church in Her sacred science. It is the most wonderful science.
August 25 at 4:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's why I asked where the quote was from.
August 25 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure St. Thomas argues in favor of using ad hominem arguments, especially if your opponent is an unreasonable barbarian. (Why are the barbarians attacking Rome impervious to reason? Because they are barbarians.)
August 25 at 4:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I'll get it for you. I am on a Concall.
August 25 at 4:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley The phrasing of that quote looks like something said ut in pluribus.
August 25 at 4:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley For example why is it said to be "morally impossible" rather than just "impossible?"
August 25 at 4:09pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think it says that because assent is moral. It is not just a factual proposition. Man's final end and goodness, all subjects of metaphysics, cannot be handled under metaphysics properly, without revelation. So it is a moral proposition.
August 25 at 4:11pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Because it involves more than the intellect, but also the will?
August 25 at 4:17pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's from Vat. I
August 25 at 4:23pm · Like
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Maximilian Nightingale This is still going on? I admire Sean Robertson for reading all the posts. I will not do the same. Mr. Scott is so odd... I'm not sure if you guys ever figured out what theology is, but in my experience TAC grads never have a hard time at theology in seminary. They certainly ask more questions than other students (sometimes without raising their hands), but this typically represents a willingness to understand. The most recent comments indicate that Vatican I was cited against the condemnable fideism/traditionalism which appears to be held by Peregrine, so this is thread is probably winding to a close.... Then again, he just said that he doesn't use Ott or Denzinger, so now I'm puzzled as to where he's getting his sources...
August 25 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Vatican I On Revelation:
It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason,
can, even in the present state of the human race, be known
by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and
with no intermingling of error.
[now here comes the moral part]
It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely necessary; the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural end, that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human mind; indeed eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love Him.
August 25 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Maximilian, you seem verifiably odd yourself. I guess if your observation about seminary serves us all correctly, then all is well. Thank you for that insight. I do not hold to fideism. I embrace the role of metaphysics and reason in the life of the Church and in sacred theology, and in human anthopology. It's just that I give revelation and devotion its right place. Context & proportion is everything in education.
August 25 at 4:35pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson I have literally moved to a different country since this thread began.
August 25 at 4:41pm · Like · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Just so everyone is clear, the above citation from Vat I means that WITHOUT revelation, you canNOT hold with firm certitude or without error things about God which fall within the scope of reason ((about His existence, Himself, His laws and will; ie. metaphysics or natural theology).
August 25 at 4:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia right you are Mr. Bonaventure. But no one is claiming that you can, except you claiming that TAC claims that. It is a many-nested claim-a-thon
August 25 at 4:42pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, Michael, TAC is claiming that you need to proceed with metaphysics first in order for you to be able to obtain, later in life, a fully developed sacred theology. This is flawed.
August 25 at 4:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope nope nope. obtain is not the same as understand, study or any other process. You're setting up a straw man....again
<sigh>
August 25 at 4:53pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson By the way, some wise person way up there suggested a thread drinking game. I vote we start laying down some rules.
August 25 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's hard when most of my posting is at work. They frown on that sort of thing
August 25 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Let me tread lightly here, Michael, in good faith. TAC seems to be saying that you need to study metaphysics in order for you to understand sacred theology. This is evident in its Charter and curriculum. This is a flawed approach, because as the Church teaches, revelation in the sacred science is required for the perfection of metaphysics.
August 25 at 4:56pm · Like
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Sean Robertson 1) Every time Michael Beitia's last name is misspelled.
August 25 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure an ounce of tequila
August 25 at 4:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises:
1) TAC claims you need to study metaphysics to understand sacred theology
2) the Church teaches revelation in the sacred science is required for perfection in metaphysics
there is no conclusion that follows from these two things, least of all that TAC's method is flawed
August 25 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson 2) Every time JA Escalante quotes/threatens to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia.
August 25 at 5:01pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson 3) Every time PB's argument is successfully refuted.
August 25 at 5:03pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Are these like thimble size glasses and microsips. ...... cause otherwise the thread will die soon, as pb refuters pass out.
August 25 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia here it is:
August 25 at 5:05pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Pass out? Or die of alcohol poisoning?
August 25 at 5:06pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Of course my argument is conclusive. The church teaches the sacred science and revelation is necessary to establish an error free metaphysics. This is the case between any sapiential science and revelation and the deposit of Faith. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. But TAC does the opposite, in its curriculum and teaching. It teaches that you must learn metaphysics first, in order to be able to have a full sacred theology later. This is a flaw, because it only makes false assumptions about the Faith because it is using a flawed metaphysics.
See Dick run. Run Dick run!
August 25 at 5:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^nope that's just your perpetual straw man
August 25 at 5:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia id est: "have" is not the same as "learn"
August 25 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (takes drink)
August 25 at 5:12pm · Like · 6
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JA Escalante pretty sure "Peregrine" is Matthew's sock puppet for Klout-raising purposes
August 25 at 5:17pm · Like · 5
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JA Escalante Come on, Matthew, admit it's you. No real person can be *that* unreasonable
August 25 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia updates!:
August 25 at 5:18pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia I'm thirsty JAson, whip out the Catholic Encyclopedia!
August 25 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante HAHAHA perfect
August 25 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure TAC asserts you need to study metaphysics first, before sacred science, in order for you to be able to learn theology in its fullness later.
This is the opposite of what the Church teaches.
Game over.
August 25 at 5:32pm · Like
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Tim Cantu I've been on vacation so I'm late to this party buuuuuuuuuut http://i1.kym-cdn.com/.../hey-guys-whats-going-on-thread.jpg
i1.kym-cdn.com
i1.kym-cdn.com
August 25 at 5:33pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele ? Uh, we cover Thomas's adaptation of Aristotle in the Summa before we cover Aristotle's own metaphysics so... no.
August 25 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele About to go into class so... bye.
August 25 at 5:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia here's what TAC teaches:
While, therefore, We hold that every word of wisdom, every useful thing by whomsoever discovered or planned, ought to be received with a willing and grateful mind, We exhort you, venerable brethren, in all earnestness to restore the golden wisdom of St. Thomas, and to spread it far and wide for the defense and beauty of the Catholic faith, for the good of society, and for the advantage of all the sciences. The wisdom of St. Thomas, We say; for if anything is taken up with too great subtlety by the Scholastic doctors, or too carelessly stated -- if there be anything that ill agrees with the discoveries of a later age, or, in a word, improbable in whatever way -- it does not enter Our mind to propose that for imitation to Our age. Let carefully selected teachers endeavor to implant the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas in the minds of students, and set forth clearly his solidity and excellence over others. Let the universities already founded or to be founded by you illustrate and defend this doctrine, and use it for the refutation of prevailing errors. But, lest the false for the true or the corrupt for the pure be drunk in, be ye watchful that the doctrine of Thomas be drawn from his own fountains, or at least from those rivulets which, derived from the very fount, have thus far flowed, according to the established agreement of learned men, pure and clear; be careful to guard the minds of youth from those which are said to flow thence, but in reality are gathered from strange and unwholesome streams.
August 25 at 5:40pm · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Haha. That's funny.
August 25 at 5:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why, o trollish raptor?
August 25 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Tom Malone This entire thread is one of several hundred instances that remind me of the following:
1) TAC would implode servers if they decided to do online courses
2) TAC'ers are weirdly obsessed with Facebook (saying vs doing, probably)
3) I hate TAC'ers on Facebook most of the time (myself included. It's a spiritual self-loathing of sorts.)
4) I don't hate TAC'ers when all they contribute is a funny image (Tim Cantu, mad props.)
August 25 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Tim Cantu you Tom
August 25 at 5:44pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante how is this whole thread NOT a funny image
August 25 at 5:47pm · Like · 6
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Tim Cantu ^pretty deep when you think about it
August 25 at 5:48pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'm with you Escalante. I waffle between being totally amused, and trying to be serious. The thread is, however, a joke.
August 25 at 5:49pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland over 2800!
August 25 at 5:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger BTW, Pater Edmund. That first link is quite a lengthy dispute. But I will take a looksee. However, I do not think you responded to my argument. You merely provided an example. That is, you did not addresses the questions and statements I made.
August 25 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And to JA Escalante and others, I did send something off to Pater, yesterday, but am waiting for his response. . . . I figure there's no rush and the issue can be unburied again.
August 25 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante just keep Pater away from the tinder and matches and I'm sure there can be a conversation
August 25 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ??
August 25 at 5:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger gotcha
August 25 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I miss the old days of digging up bones and pronouncing post mortem excommunication myself. It
August 25 at 5:57pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ...It's so "incarnational." (There is still time. Nothing infallible yet.)
August 25 at 5:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron
August 25 at 6:00pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict 4) A White Russian every time "magisterium" is mentioned.
August 25 at 6:01pm · Like · 7
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Tim Cantu ^"Get alcohol poisoning with this one weird trick!"
August 25 at 6:05pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger Michael will have a few keyboarders hospitalized with one of his sentences.
August 25 at 6:05pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson What would y'all most like to add to TAC curriculum if you could? One author/reading/topic only.
August 25 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pascendi
August 25 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "Sacred Theology"=shot of jäger
August 25 at 6:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I don't really know the curriculum; I just like to criticize it. But I have a better idea reading this thread
August 25 at 6:07pm · Like
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Megan Caughron The Tao te Ching.
August 25 at 6:07pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Syllabus/syllabus of errors=vodka Jell-O shot
August 25 at 6:07pm · Like
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JA Escalante Megan please tell me you're serious
August 25 at 6:08pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Of course I am!
August 25 at 6:08pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron It's a great text!
August 25 at 6:08pm · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu of the many topics we covered, I most wished we had covered sacred theology. so I guess that would be my answer.
August 25 at 6:08pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante indeed
August 25 at 6:08pm · Like
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JA Escalante I would add Goethe's Farbenlehre
August 25 at 6:09pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson "This thread reflects the views of its eternal self in time only by its operation - and is in no way affiliated with or representative of Thomas Aquinas College." You are now free to bask in its glory.
August 25 at 6:09pm · Like · 5
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Tim Cantu If I'm being serious, the Great Gatsby. I'm also not much of a thinker, so it probably doesn't fit in.
August 25 at 6:10pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No undergraduate Catholic institution in America limits the role of revelation in sapiential philosophy more than Thomas Aquinas College. It's not even close.
So behold the titles of the seniors theses, and weep for their unemployability, and pray that at least a couple of them might be hired by the college to tutor; then marvel if any of these men of leisure can pay off their loans.
August 25 at 6:14pm · Like
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Tim Cantu I have no interest in engaging the broader point, but the notion that it's impossible to pay off the massive debt load TAC saddles you with is laughable. If you take out the maximum in TAC loans, the standard 10-year repayment plan costs less than $200 a month.
But I must return to reveling in my unemployability.
August 25 at 6:15pm · Unlike · 5
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Isak Benedict I had a discussion with my Rhetoric students on how to figure out if you're arguing with a fanatic. It's pretty simple. You just ask him "What would it take to change your mind?"
For as Churchill said, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Nothing will ever change PB's mind. At this point, then, the only use in continuing to argue is for the sake of anyone possessing reason who could be in danger of falling sway to his brand of lunacy. Rational dialogue with a fanatic is a losing strategy. Even worse, you will always begin to take on the same characteristics as the fanatic, and his methods will begin to rub off on you.
The truth is that a fanatic is truly unable to stop. A mania compels him, and that mania can never be sufficiently clarified or satisfied.
Voltaire once had an argument with a Quaker over whether it made sense for them to call themselves Christians when they do not practice baptism. His conclusion: “I took care not to dispute anything he said, for there’s no arguing with an Enthusiast. Better not take it into one’s head to tell a lover the faults of his mistress, or a litigant the weakness of his cause — or to talk sense to a fanatic. And so I went on to other questions.”
August 25 at 6:15pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger More literature I think would be in order. It's a complaint I've heard. And probably more politics / ethics from what I've heard. But for specific books I would have to look through the curriculum. (The Great Gatsby would not be on my list.) A poetry class including Dryden instead. How about a poetry memorization class (a la John Senior and IHS)? A poetry writing class? .......... just trying to spark others' thoughts here.
August 25 at 6:17pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Just getting out of signing up at HR and getting my ID card at the top ten national liberal arts college where I teach this semester.
Now I gotta go back to my place and work on my other jobs - I mean, signing up for unemployment....
August 25 at 6:17pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu I fully admit that Gatsby does not belong in the curriculum; I just like it. This is why I'll never have any role in setting curriculum at, well, any place of higher education.
August 25 at 6:18pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Really, the debt load at TAC is lower than almost any other liberal arts college in America - and in the top 100 it's usually one of the cheapest and best.
August 25 at 6:18pm · Like · 2
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John Kunz [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif[/IMG]
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
August 25 at 6:19pm · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu TAC's financial aid is honestly unbelievably good, but because it's unorthodox (when compared to mainstream financial aid) it has a reputation as stingy. Which is unfortunate, because in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth.
August 25 at 6:19pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think we need a new president. This unemployment thing is unacceptable.
And I'll never change my mind about that.
August 25 at 6:21pm · Like
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John Herreid Brainstorm: as a Catholic alternative to the Ice Bucket challenge, people have to come here and "debate" The Peregrine for a couple of rounds or else donate a hundred bucks to charity.
August 25 at 6:23pm · Like · 10
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Isak Benedict Tim - the Great Gatsby is absolutely defensible for inclusion in a Great Books program. I would include it. It even has "Great" in the title.
I would add A Confederacy of Dunces, actually. Funniest book ever.
August 25 at 6:24pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson ^so good
August 25 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I now feel remarkably vindicated in this opinion, Isak.
August 25 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But doesn't everyone at TAC read the Confederacy anyway?
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John: Pascendi is on the curriculum already
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron Choice 2: "The Double Helix" by Watson and Crick.
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John - If they don't, they ought to
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I just had to get that in the first post, Michael.
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I think Matthew, it depends on what you're replacing. I'd revamp lab, top to bottom.
August 25 at 6:25pm · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu This is a (distilled and abridged) story that reminds me of this thread:
I'm with my family in Fort Collins, CO. We're taking the opportunity to enjoy the delightful Old Town district and walking around it a lot. Fort Collins being a hippie town, we were accosted (politely) by a Greenpeace activist who wanted to save the rainforests. I listened to his speech, only interrupting to ask which rainforests he wanted to save because I didn't like some of them (which really threw him for a loop). At the end of the speech when he asked us for a small donation and to become members, I said "No, I don't want to." When pressed for a reason, and when he gave me more good reasons to join, I said "Yeah, but I don't want to.", and politely went on my way. I have a new hobby; trolling sidewalk activists. And it reminds me of this thread.
August 25 at 6:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson TAC and the like are steals compared to other places that are 50-60k a year.
August 25 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'd like to add Camus. The Stranger if y'all are hung up on fiction, I prefer The Rebel
August 25 at 6:27pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron I vote strongly against adding more fiction.
August 25 at 6:27pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante aww Tim you shouldn't; they're just kids and it's a shite job.
August 25 at 6:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia thanks Megan, I tend to agree.
August 25 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Hey, I was polite and listened to him, but seriously, I'm not joining greenpeace or any other organization because an unwashed guy on a sidewalk told me I should.
August 25 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer one book, post-graduation, amongst the many I have read, that really stands out is http://www.amazon.com/Progra.../dp/B000GCFBP6/ref=sr_1_10...
August 25 at 6:29pm · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu also, as someone firmly in denial about his age, I reject the contention that I am not just a kid myself.
August 25 at 6:29pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Other suggestions: Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning," and Graham Greene's "The Power and the Glory."
I vote more fiction. But I understand not wanting it. TAC doesn't do too well with fiction, literature, or poetry in general.
August 25 at 6:29pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Megan: what if we stipulate that whatever fiction is added will be added at the expense of Faerie Queene?
August 25 at 6:29pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia I think there's a strong case to replace some of soph seminar. Take out the Faerie Queene (sorry Pi-Pi) and stick in ...... .anything? Livy?
August 25 at 6:29pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Just Part II, Tim - I liked Part I
August 25 at 6:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I'm just of the opinion that the old literature is so vastly superior, that if you spend enough time with the old, you will have no trouble with the recent stuff on your own. More time on the ancients (through Renaissance) and your all good. .. ..... more than that, I really like fewer and fewer of the new productions. They don't make the cut.
August 25 at 6:30pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron My gosh. Stick in Cormac McCarthy in place of the Faerie Queene. Stick in ROWLING!
August 25 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante oh come on guys don't pick on Spenser
August 25 at 6:30pm · Unlike · 3
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Tim Cantu Harry Potter for TAC Curriculum!
August 25 at 6:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Spenser sucked
August 25 at 6:31pm · Like
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JA Escalante what is this Spenser-hatred, fear of a Protestant planet?
August 25 at 6:31pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Pietta tried for like two hours to explain to me why it is in the program. I glazed over ....
August 25 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron If we want Renaissance English stuff, maybe Sidney's Defense of Poetry.
August 25 at 6:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think it probably has to do with modern men's incapacity for allegory
August 25 at 6:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John, re: your poetry suggestion. I found it troublesome that after encounters only with epic poetry and some Shakespearean sonnets, seniors were expected to have a productive conversation about The Wasteland, one of the most difficult (if magnificent) poems ever written. This when barely anyone even knew what alliteration was.
August 25 at 6:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger right, Isak. . . . for myself I've never been able to get into Eliot. But it doesn't matter. I have too many great ones to spend time on.
August 25 at 6:34pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Upping the heresy quotient: James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
August 25 at 6:34pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron Or with modern man's distaste for overblown Renaissance poetry. Spenser is like a literary fruitcake with LOTS of dried fruit and LOTS of nuts. Just cuz it's traditional, doesn't make it good. Please pass the crème brulee and the Yeats!
August 25 at 6:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Passage to India?
August 25 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Daniel - SO MUCH YES.
August 25 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger CHAUCER (do ya'll read him? He is my favorite English poet = GOAT)
August 25 at 6:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Thank God no one said any C.S. Lewis. I need to keep my dinner down
August 25 at 6:35pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Or maybe Ulysses? It would provide a nice book-end to the Odyssey.
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Spenser is theology for goodnesss' sake
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Ok. A poetry unit would be ok. The Four Quartets. Some Donne. Some Yeats. Some R. P. Warren. Mmmmm...
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But...do you guys think that the inclusion of Tolkien in the Great Books canon is imminent? I know some who do.
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yeah, Chaucer's Tales in place of Spencer ALL DAY
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Poetry and lit seminars made me fearful and depressed for the state of other souls. It was oddly voyeuristic, except you didn't want to see the uncouth ig'nance that was revealed.
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict I think TAC students would spontaneously combust if they had to try to read Ulysses.
August 25 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yeah. Def. more. literature. then. Matthew.
August 25 at 6:36pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^this^ (up one)
August 25 at 6:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante NO
August 25 at 6:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson We did Chaucer, but more would have been great.
August 25 at 6:37pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante for one thing, literature is much harder to discuss that propositions
August 25 at 6:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Tim Cantu How many people here have seen Moneyball? Is More Literature the new market inefficiency?
August 25 at 6:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia another thing, it's longer
August 25 at 6:37pm · Like
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Megan Caughron It's also much easier to read.
August 25 at 6:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hardly
August 25 at 6:38pm · Unlike · 1
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JA Escalante yeah and if Yeats, then "Crazy Jane and the Bishop"...see how that would fly at TAC
August 25 at 6:38pm · Like
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JA Escalante literature is not easier to read than treatises
August 25 at 6:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Megan Caughron BEOWULF!
August 25 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante most people read literature very badly
August 25 at 6:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia yes
August 25 at 6:38pm · Like
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JA Escalante Beowulf makes sense.
August 25 at 6:38pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron That's largely because they have done insufficient philosophy or theology or history or all three.
August 25 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I prefer Icelandic sagas. Could I get a few votes for Egil's Saga?
August 25 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante vote
August 25 at 6:39pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I'm definitely a fanatic, but I liked reading the Faerie Queen.
August 25 at 6:39pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger But Beowulf is not as good (I love it don't get me wrong). But y'all need more readable ENGLISH, especially poetry.
August 25 at 6:39pm · Like
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Tim Cantu yeah Catherine but you think metaphysics is necessary for sacred theology sooooooo
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Howl.
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante but seriously imagine trying to discuss the The Alexandria Quartet in seminar at TAC
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Chaucer's Middle English is very easy to pick up in a week.
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but I don't ever want to spend two hours talking about poetry with a bunch of twenty-year olds (You kids get off my lawn!)
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like · 5
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JA Escalante it would be utter ruin
August 25 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante or imagine discussing Finnegan's Wake with a bunch of 17 year old homeschoolers. UTTER RUIN
August 25 at 6:41pm · Like · 4
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Megan Caughron Kerouac - !!
August 25 at 6:41pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia almost as bad as discussing it with critical theorists.....
August 25 at 6:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Kerouac is better to listen to.
August 25 at 6:42pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Multi-media! The return and rise of literature as spoken! The modern Homer!
August 25 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think, generally... No, I won't go there. That would be fanatical.
August 25 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Erotokritos. Still chanted every day all over Greece, and almost totally unknown in the West. And did Megan just call Kerouac the modern Homer for reals?
August 25 at 6:46pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think most students at TAC have to spend too much energy assenting to particular tenants that are far more limiting than the universal freedoms which the Catholic Faith has to offer. When they graduate, a lot of times they don't know how to believe and go with the flow. They don't know how to think outside of any box. There are exceptions to this rule, but go ahead and dispute me. I am fanatical about it.
August 25 at 6:49pm · Like
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John Kunz THREE THOUSAND WITHIN THE HOUR PEOPLE!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxHAZChcYU
Picard - Make It So
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante Peregrine, it's "tenets"
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Hey - shouldn't TAC be paying ME for this thread, as the headline is a gigantic advert for them?
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like · 7
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JA Escalante not "tenants"
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And it is continually in everyone's face?
August 25 at 6:50pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante might result in a drop in admissions though
August 25 at 6:51pm · Like · 4
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Megan Caughron Assenting to tenants sounds ... prostitutional...
August 25 at 6:51pm · Unlike · 7
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John Kunz SAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT THE TENETS OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM. AT LEAST IT'S AN ETHOS.
August 25 at 6:51pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I would only take 10% and distribute the rest weekly -proportionally to top commentators.
August 25 at 6:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And then you could all use that money to help pay student loans, thus renewing the eternal return - the Neverending Thread.
August 25 at 6:52pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure If there were a contemporary Virgil or Homer, what form would he write in? What would he write about?
August 25 at 6:52pm · Like
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JA Escalante there couldnt be a contemporary Homer; cf Lewis on primary and secondary epic in "Preface to Paradise Lost"
August 25 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure My word, thank you, I meant tenets.
August 25 at 6:54pm · Like
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JA Escalante there could be a contemporary Virgil; Tolkien *might* be something like it
August 25 at 6:54pm · Like
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Tim Cantu "There are exceptions to this rule, but go ahead and dispute me."
In that case, the exceptions to this rule are essentially every graduate of TAC I know personally. But as they say, quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
August 25 at 6:55pm · Like · 2
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John Herreid "If there were a contemporary Virgil or Homer, what form would he write in? What would he write about?"
Sing, O muse, of the rage of Peregrine, that brought countless comments upon the book of faces...
August 25 at 6:55pm · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Would he write about Hobits?
August 25 at 6:55pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I sing of facebook and a man of faces... And then we could write about how Juno hates America and the founders. But what form would it take?
August 25 at 6:57pm · Like
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JA Escalante 60 more comments to the mark
August 25 at 6:58pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron So back to the question about what should be added to the curriculum... What about Bonaventure?
August 25 at 6:59pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia so we stopped talking about proposed additions? Damn this moves fast. I would suggest more modern philosophy, but not too modern so as not to scare anybody. I and Thou by Buber?
Discipline and Punish be Foucalt. then I could show my campusing was unjust
August 25 at 6:59pm · Like · 6
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JA Escalante i pushed for Bonaventure when I was there. No luck
August 25 at 6:59pm · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I for one say quod gratis asserritur, gratis negatur all the time.
August 25 at 7:00pm · Like
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John Herreid "The Monster at the End of this Book" is worth a seminar, I think.
August 25 at 7:00pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia the monster at the end of this thread
August 25 at 7:00pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron FOUCAULT. YES!!!!!!!!!
August 25 at 7:00pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure At TAC, is it big news when the curriculum changes a little?
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes. it is big news. I lucked out and missed TS Eliot
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia after my time
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Things I Am Learning Today: I am remarkably poorly read compared to you people.
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia but I missed out on one of my favs, Heidegger, but we used to do private seminars for that
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron I thought we read the Wasteland while we were there... did we not?!
August 25 at 7:01pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure What form would great epic poem take today?
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Nope, just talked about it ad nauseum with Matthew Peterson
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like
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Tim Cantu ^Tupac.
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Foucault would be great and useful
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 50shades of grey
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like · 6
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Megan Caughron The great epic form of today = Star Wars
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante uh, no
August 25 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's settled then, Foucalt. When Can I expect my check, Peterson?
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron (I was kidding on Star Wars... I do think that film as literature needs to get more respect, though.)
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia only if Peter Jackson will drink a cup of bleach
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure no you did not read,
the shadow under the red rock,
come here under the shadow of the red rock,
Twit twit
Jug Jug
August 25 at 7:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no I read it a million times. Just not suffering through a 2 hour seminar on it
August 25 at 7:04pm · Like
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JA Escalante now there's a thought. Why not assign films.
August 25 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron Shakespeare today would be directing films. And the poets would be rocking out in Indie bands.
August 25 at 7:05pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante yes!
August 25 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Yeats was right, the death of modern poetry is its severance from music
August 25 at 7:06pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia as long as we could watch Trollhunter
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740707/
Trollhunter (2010)
www.imdb.com
Directed by André Øvredal. With Otto Jespersen, Robert Stoltenberg, Knut Nærum, Glenn Erland Tosterud. A group of students investigates a series of mysterious bear killings, but learns that there are much more dangerous things going on. They start to follow a mysterious hunter, learning that he is a…
August 25 at 7:06pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Darn, I thought you were serious about Star Wars. I am actually watching it right now with David and Jack. They are in the giant trash compactor as we speak. It is an epic with a simple structure. We could right one about the war with al quada and the extremists. This is an old war.
But what metre should it take? What form should the words take?
August 25 at 7:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia magisterium
August 25 at 7:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia off to Mass
August 25 at 7:08pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't think the great poets would be in Indie bands. Every great age has poets, except ours, but we live in the greatest age. Why is that? Do we not need poets? Are they really rocking out like men of leisure in India bands?
August 25 at 7:09pm · Like
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JA Escalante John Donne looks a lot like Jack White, fwiw
August 25 at 7:10pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I wonder what form the words would take? Would it be hexameter with no rhyme scheme?
August 25 at 7:14pm · Like
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JA Escalante it's a big modernist optical illusion which forbids us to see Vladimir Vysotsky or George Brassens as great poets
August 25 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Pray for us, Michael!
August 25 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante and we forget that Yeats chanted his poems with a bowed psaltery by preference
August 25 at 7:15pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think great poets cannot hide behind contemporaneous excuses. They rise like corks. What form would they write in today. If they still wrote epics. Would it have rhyme? I wonder.
August 25 at 7:22pm · Like
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JA Escalante Tolkien definitely wrote a "secondary epic". Whether it is the great one of our time is hard to say
August 25 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's not about the world though, or America or the rise of a nation. It's just about Hobbits. It's shear fantasy, unless it's an analogy about WWI or Armagedon or something? Is it about any historical event, or is it just about the struggle between good and evil? Just wondering.
August 25 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante that's a totally fair question
August 25 at 7:30pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think the great epic so-called would have to be a novel form but full of poetic form.
August 25 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante thats what the LOTR is!
August 25 at 7:30pm · Unlike · 2
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JA Escalante and what Lewis calls "secondary epic"
August 25 at 7:30pm · Like
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JA Escalante and to answer yr question, it's about the inner structure of political order and how one relates to the heroic past in order to be virtuous in the present
August 25 at 7:31pm · Edited · Like · 3
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JA Escalante and "hobbits" are the modern middle class, petit-bourgeoisie
August 25 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland "or imagine discussing Finnegan's Wake with a bunch of 17 year old homeschoolers" --the Old Testament was bad enough. At least one person had to have circumcision explained to them, or so I hear.
August 25 at 7:35pm · Edited · Like · 4
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JA Escalante at least one person in my seminar had to have explained to them what Dido and Aeneas were up to in the cave
August 25 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure What's circumcision? Please explain.
August 25 at 7:38pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante after someone spent nearly 30 min attempting suggestive circumlocution
August 25 at 7:38pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I thought Hobbits were the shrinking middle class caught in class warfare between the elves and the orcs.
August 25 at 7:41pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante haha that's actually not far from the truth
August 25 at 7:42pm · Like
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Sean Robertson What about throwing some Chesterton into senior seminar? I'm just not sure how discussable that would be. Maybe it would depend whether it was his fiction or non-fiction.
August 25 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Chesterton's play is good. It is called Magic. I wrote a thesis about it. He uses a unique kind of discovery in it. His discovery is supernatural as the classical Greek discovery is like nature. Chesterton was really a playwright, but didn't know it. He only wrote one play. At least that was my theory.
August 25 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante ^ I think that's plausible, actually
August 25 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Yeah, that could make some sense. At the very least, I've always thought that Chesterton was a poet who happened to write a lot of prose, while Lewis (for example) was a prose writer who happened to write some poetry.
August 25 at 7:59pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure His dramatic discovery/reversal was the best technique ever. He was very gifted.
August 25 at 7:59pm · Like
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Sean Robertson 3,000
August 25 at 8:00pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Say more about it, Peregrine. I admit I never liked the "discovery" in the Fr Brown stories, seemed always too telepathic and irrational
August 25 at 8:00pm · Like · 2
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John Kunz DAMMIT!!!
August 25 at 8:04pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Did you miss 3000?
August 25 at 8:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I agree. The senery and the actors apparently had a good effect on him. They drew him in. His play is more elegant.
August 25 at 8:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think the Fourth Millenium must be Joachim of Fiore's Age of the Holy Spirit -- JA and Peregrine are agreeing on something.
August 25 at 8:14pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure The play is built around one central change/discovery. It is a story about a love and a marriage. The woman is seduced by a conjurer. There are two forces working in the plot. GKC worked from a literary theory called the mystical minimum of gratitude. This was a constant theory that he applied. The tiniest particple of positive grace can overwhelm a universe of darkness. The Christian narrative uses this discovery. Why was God born in a stable. This is a mystical minimum. Our hearts are wired to respond in gratitude to this discovery.
August 25 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF TAC has too much literature, at least, senior seminar does.
August 25 at 8:28pm · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure In the play Magic, Chesterton orchestrates this kind of discovery. He uses two lights, one red one blue, for this discovery. The discovery has two parts: the diminishment of evil and the increase of gratitude. So it is a different kind of discovery. There's more to it, and there's only one in the play. He liked hanging out with the actors, and he liked how it was live. But he withdrew from it, probably because theater is like what St. Francis de Sales says about dancing, and GKC was very virtuous. He was no George Bernard Shaw.
August 25 at 8:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel. You sadden me.
August 25 at 8:35pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Peregrine Bonaventure - JA Escalante - this GKC discussion reminds me of one of my favorite poems about Shakespeare, and the fact that few know what they are actually good at, or what they are here for:
http://donmarquis.com/literature?pp=656
Literature | DonMarquis.com
donmarquis.com
August 25 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure That parrot sure knows his Shakespeare! Thank you.
August 25 at 8:50pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19094/19094-h/19094-h.htm
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Magic, by G.K. Chesterton.
www.gutenberg.org
G.P. PUTNAM'S SONS NEW YORK AND LONDON The Knickerbocker Press 1913 , 1913 BY G.K. CHESTERTON The Knickerbocker Press, New York play was presented under the management of Kenelm Foss at The Little Theatre, London, on November 7, 1913, with the following cast: : A plantation of thin young trees, in a…
August 25 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Thibodeaux GKC's "The Everlasting Man" or "Orthodoxy"
August 25 at 9:06pm · Like
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Aaron Thibodeaux or "The Ballad of the White Horse"
August 25 at 9:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Regarding the comments about great modern poets - well, they're still doing their thing.
August 25 at 9:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think Bonaventure's Itinerarium or De Reductione Artium ad Theologiam should be in the curriculum. Also, it'd be kinda neat to have read some Boccaccio or some such before reading Dante and Cervantes.
August 25 at 9:11pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley But, generally I'm on Escalante's side: there's already too much literature in the curriculum, there should be more medieval philosophy and more math and science: something by Cantor or Hilbert perhaps or perhaps just spending more time on Dedekind and Lobachevsky. (Maybe a semester of Set theory and symbolic logic and a semester of non-Euclidean geometry instead of the current senior math program? That would definitely help grad students out).
Also, one of my discoveries at grad school is that analytic philosophy is generally much more interesting than contemporary Thomism.
August 25 at 9:13pm · Like · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Isak who are these great poets doing their thing today, and what form and meter are they using?
August 25 at 9:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I never appreciated T.S. Eliot until I listened to recordings of him reading his own poetry.
August 25 at 9:16pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure More time for learning about beekeeping and vinetending should take place senior year. Students need more practical time to keep them in reality.
August 25 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They should beef up the math curriculum, so we could say something like "TAC provides the equivalent of a triple major in Theology, Philosophy and Mathematics"
August 25 at 9:19pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Work Study is 13 hours of practical time a week.... Unless you are in the parcel room . . .
August 25 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Were there any noteworthy theses on literature this year.
August 25 at 9:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm an unemployable grad who had a real job throughout the four years he was in college, as well as a publication in a peer reviewed journal.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract...
August 25 at 9:21pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure More doctrine, and dogmatic theology freshman year, but I know we are all in agreement with that.
August 25 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Anthony Crifasi http://www.ubergizmo.com/.../chart-shows-how-many.../
Chart Shows How Many Minutes The World Spends Looking At Screens
www.ubergizmo.com
We all love our gadgets, that’s for sure, but exactly how much time do we spend looking at them? After all we can be entertained by our computers,...
August 25 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ok we can't just add more course work. So I'm all for just fixing up math and sciences, which is what the college is working on too.
August 25 at 9:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I also think that throwing in some computer science might be worthwhile: there's some really fascinating research in algorithms which could potentially complement one's thought about the interior senses.
August 25 at 9:25pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ed, just so I keep up good appearances with your wife. . . Shouldn't you be working on your Thesis?
August 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's a great start Ed. Now you need to follow it up with a Broadway musical. The trouble with work is you sometimes need to move. I had to go to DC for my first job. I got kicked around for a few years, then finally landed in a career path as a speechwriter.
August 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, computer programming is the apotheosis of symbolic thought.
August 25 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Is apotheosis a kind of herbal tea?
August 25 at 9:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't think there's too much literature - I just think what's there isn't done properly.
August 25 at 9:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But other than that I agree.
August 25 at 9:29pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick DC is awful.
August 25 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://lmgtfy.com/?q=apotheosis
August 25 at 9:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley DC is awesome
August 25 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Realistically, there should be some writing classes in the program. But I've been accused of being too pragmatic.
August 25 at 9:30pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict I was wondering when you would make an appearance, Clay.
August 25 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Or just more writing ... But that would be more work... And I'm not a fan of that
August 25 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yep.
August 25 at 9:31pm · Like
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Clayton Brockman Oh I commented earlier about the crap-flinging. I guess this counts more as a substantive contribution though.
August 25 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman And how could I stay away from a thread where you were in it, sir Isak?
August 25 at 9:32pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure DC is kind of awful now. It was fun under Bush.
August 25 at 9:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I wasn't in it, haha. I left it behind and it returned into my life.
August 25 at 9:34pm · Like
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Clayton Brockman I agree. Batman _Arkham Asylum_ was a fantastic graphic novel, but DC doesn't make them like that anymore.
August 25 at 9:34pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell DC was awful under Bush. They moved the 3 police forces downtown to protect against "terrorism" and those of us who lived outside the downtown area all got mugged. My house was also set on fire by an arsonist in 2003 (same year I was mugged).
August 25 at 9:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger once in, there is no exit.
August 25 at 9:36pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I meant DC, not the local government.
August 25 at 9:36pm · Like
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Clayton Brockman Oh I meant the Comic book creator.
August 25 at 9:36pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Edward Langley, I forced my senior seminar to listen to a recording of Elliot reading the Waste Land. I think the tutor agreed on the condition that we stay late to make up the lost discussion time. Needless to say, I was quite popular with my classmates, as Samantha Cohoe can attest!
August 25 at 9:36pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Our tutor made us read What the Thunder Said aloud.
August 25 at 9:37pm · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Our tutor made us walk uphill in the snow, both ways.
August 25 at 9:38pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry you got mugged and about your home.
August 25 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure We never had tutors are Christendom. We only had professors. They made us wake up half an hour before we went to bed to read Denzinger.
August 25 at 9:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Were those intentional?
August 25 at 9:42pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nevah!
August 25 at 9:43pm · Like
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Clayton Brockman No, I just - Either that was a jab at Christendom or it wasn't. Sorry, I'm lost.
August 25 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh, yes. Intentional. Sorry, it was I who was lost. You know, back in 1854, Christendom College was preparing to grant federal loans, but day two at Gettysburg didn't go the way they planned.
August 25 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Clayton Brockman The subject/verb thing was intentional? Pretty slick lol.
August 25 at 9:51pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz DC is awful.....Heck I committed a felony the instant I entered it without knowing it!
You guys are all insane. Here I had through of an explanation of assent of intellect and will, versus assent of faith, just to find that lost by 1000 comments in between.....
This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends, some people starting commenting not knowing how it'd go, they'll ending up commenting orever just because this is the thread that never ends....
August 25 at 9:54pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley You might as well post it, Josh.
August 25 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Oh if you say I am insane for reading and commenting on it...well I already know I am crazy...I expected better of some of you!
August 25 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well the rest of us are not really better... We are all still here or keep coming back...
August 25 at 10:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I go to Mass, the thread goes to hell. Stay on topic, peoples! (and better math/science is priority #1, followed by getting rid of some of the literature. But they should add No Exit by Sartre. it describes the dorms pretty well)
August 25 at 10:03pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I think the primary topic at the moment is getting to 4000
August 25 at 10:04pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I will concede that was fun, Joel, if you will concede that it was totally cool when I kept our Goethe seminar going the full two hours even though everyone else was in a pizza coma.
August 25 at 10:05pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF That's right! Did we have that one in St. Pat's/the old 400 dorms? I vaguely recall it being there though that wasn't the usual classroom.
August 25 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF And yes, I'll happily concede that Samantha.
August 25 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And do you vaguely recall berating me afterwards? Ironic, coming from the guy who made us all stay *late* to listen to Elliot. ; )
August 25 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Alrighty then. It is analogous to natural reason. Remember Aquinas divides the works of Aristotle in several ways. One distinction is between reason that produces certain knowledge (prior and posterior analytics), another produces opinion (Topics), another suspicion (rhetoric) and another a certain inclination through fittingness (Poetics)
The first works with necessary arguments (valid and sound syllogisms). The next gives an arguments that wholly declines the mind to one side of a contradiction, but leaving the either side as still possible, just not reasonably held (with the evidence at hand). The next declines the intellect to one side, but not completely, by making it more probable. The last inclines to one side through a certain beauty.
Now the assent of faith is like to the first, in that there is certitude and an affirmation of necessity. But assent of intellect and will does not exclude the possibility of it being wrong, but does mean that the strength of authority for the position calls for an affirmation that totally declines to one side of the contradiction.
It is analogous to a regular person accepting the consensus of biologists about certain biological theories. It is reasonable, and necessary, to trust experts. While also admitting an outside possibility of them being wrong here.
Likewise, when the pope or the bishops teach with authority, but not definitively, that is strength enough, not to exclude the possibility of another side, but to produce opinion and grant moral certitude (you can act safely on it) and renders it normally unreasonable to deny it (as it is absurd for someone who never studied that much math to dismiss non Euclidean geometries)
Now it is possible that an individual, who is well learned and studied is persuaded that such a pronouncement is false. He needs to ask himself, how competent he is on the subject... and then, if he cannot but disagree, in that rare instance assent of mind and intellect is not owed, but risk of scandal should prevent public disagreement. Outside of that rare instance, one gives internal assent, but as to an opinion. Obviously the maisterium of the pope supercedes that of a local bishop, etc. And there is the practical difficulty in determining what the Church permits for free discussion, and what is not.
If the CCC be considered an act of the magisterium, then so was the Roman Catechism. But they contradict each other on substantial points. At some point the majority of theologians rejected the Roman Catechism's teaching on holy orders, in spite of what appears as an act of the authentic magisterium....in a very real way theologians have relied on tacit consent to such debates...in our day of not condemning outright error, it makes it very difficult to assume "no censure" = tacit approval. But that is kind of how it goes.
August 25 at 10:13pm · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF Me? Berating someone? Surely not!
August 25 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I miss senior seminar.
August 25 at 10:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hah you whippersnappers. I wrote the book on TAC berating. Also set the record for longest coffee cup toss
August 25 at 10:18pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz The world record for a FB thread is 584,444 comments....we can do it!
August 25 at 10:24pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia hah
August 25 at 10:24pm · Like
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Thomas Quackenbush It would only take about seven years.
August 25 at 10:25pm · Like · 3
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Thomas Quackenbush At this rate.
August 25 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz We can speed that up...post padding is an art
August 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Welcome back, Michael, thanks for your prayers.
August 25 at 10:29pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Has anyone at TAC ever written a thesis on the theory of evolution. It seems to me man came from dust, not from an ape-like creature. Mutation is a kind of evolution, but one thing cannot evolve into another.
August 25 at 10:32pm · Like
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Megan Caughron I am leaving, but I just want to say how much I love and value what my alma gave me. I love reading those thesis titles. And sure, there's stuff to critique and even criticize. But it's great to know the people I know from going to TAC, and to have learned what we learned there. Haters gonna hate. But lovers gonna love, too. And thank God for that place and all it did for us. It was good for me --and so were you, my classmates. Goodnight, good people.
August 25 at 10:36pm · Like · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Right now, Everything is happening at the same moment. Good night, moon.
August 25 at 10:38pm · Like
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Isak Benedict PB why is your only concern about form and meter?
Who are the great poets? Gee I don't know, maybe try Christian Wiman, B.H. Fairchild, Wendell Berry, Ted Kooser, Maurice Manning, Mary Karr, Mary Szybist, Tomas Transtromer, Robert Hass, Philip Schultz, Charles Wright, W.S. Merwin, or Derek Walcott. Or if you are okay with the recently deceased, Czeslaw Milosz, Wislawa Szymborska, Philip Levine - or how about Seamus Heaney, who died last year?
If you can't take your poetry straight and need it cut with the sweet traditional forms, try Dana Gioia, Richard WIlbur, or Timothy Steele. Recently deceased formalist poet Howard Nemerov is also excellent.
This age is blessed with an embarrassment of poetic riches.
August 25 at 10:38pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley Thomas, it would be shorter, the post count is growing exponentially
August 25 at 10:45pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger yeah. There be ways to continue that exponential growth. There is a method for burying trolls that hasnt been attempted.
August 25 at 10:51pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dmx4pRUpnk...
Brian Eno "Everything Merges With The Night"
From ANOTHER GREEN WORLD © 1975 EG Records Ltd
August 25 at 10:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Please share it, John.
August 25 at 10:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger well one way is to attempt to tell the monster at the end of the book in the present context.
August 25 at 10:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger there is no end and a troll in the middle.
August 25 at 10:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Haha, tell the monster what?
August 25 at 10:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm afraid I don't follow.
August 25 at 10:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But it doesnt work for me because he's an invisible troll. I have plot details to finish up.
August 25 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak!?!?! I forgot about Milosz. "The Captive Mind" would work in senior seminar
August 25 at 11:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Michael!?!?! Yes it would.
August 25 at 11:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But one can run away from and bury trolls in threads.
August 25 at 11:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry I just got excited....
August 25 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Me too
August 25 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Seriously though, anyone bemoaning a lack of great poets today is just crying for the bygone days without looking up to see the scenery in front of him.
August 25 at 11:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Perhaps we have good poets, I doubt we have great ones.
August 25 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict What makes you say that, Ed? I'd welcome your opinion.
August 25 at 11:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Maybe we'd have to clarify what we mean by "great."
August 25 at 11:11pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I saw you unlike my comment John What made you waver?
August 25 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I really don't have enough experience to have a solid opinion. But I tend to find today's formless poetry trite.
My appreciation of Eliot stems from discovering that he has more form than meets the eye. (Especially once Mr. Nieto introduced me to Hopkin's notion of Sprung Meter)
August 25 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger the word great
August 25 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ash Wednesday, for example, nearly always has five stresses on a line, even if it's unstressed syllables don't match the classical classes of meter. Hopkin's poetry is similar: he does weird things with accent, but he almost always writes pentametert.
August 25 at 11:14pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I would agree that formless poetry is trite. But I would not agree that the poets I consider the current "best" write formlessly. Hold on a sec
August 25 at 11:15pm · Like
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Nina Rachele going to bed now, but just wanted to thank Isak for the list, I have been wondering about modern poetry recently but didn't know where to start.
August 25 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, German poetry is amazing, 'specially Goethe, Schiller and Heine.
August 25 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Here's Christian Wiman's "Every Riven Thing:"
God goes, belonging to every riven thing he's made
sing his being simply by being
the thing it is:
stone and tree and sky,
man who sees and sings and wonders why
God goes. Belonging, to every riven thing he's made,
means a storm of peace.
Think of the atoms inside the stone.
Think of the man who sits alone
trying to will himself into a stillness where
God goes belonging. To every riven thing he's made
there is given one shade
shaped exactly to the thing itself:
under the tree a darker tree;
under the man the only man to see
God goes belonging to every riven thing. He's made
the things that bring him near,
made the mind that makes him go.
A part of what man knows,
apart from what man knows,
God goes belonging to every riven thing he's made.
August 25 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I didnt really appreciate poetry until i taught it, and meter is important as well as substance.
August 25 at 11:17pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Another way of saying what I'm saying, I think, is that we may have many poets like Service, Longfellow and Poe, but I haven't found any Shakespeares.
August 25 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Every Riven Thing" is a brand new form.
August 25 at 11:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Edward, if that's what you mean, I think I can agree with that. But that's because Shakespeare is beyond great, as is Dante.
August 25 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't think we even have a Donne or Hopkins
August 25 at 11:18pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Agreed, John - but it's only one of many tools in the poet's toolbox.
August 25 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley (At least, Hopkins at his best)
August 25 at 11:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger American literature is really bad.
August 25 at 11:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
THE world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs --
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
August 25 at 11:23pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i like Irving. . . . and . . . ok i admit i stopped reading it. And i probably read less poetry than Edward. I am just always disappointed. (O Conner is ok).
August 25 at 11:25pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict How can anyone say "American literature is really bad?" I really want to know!!
August 25 at 11:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, I find Flannery O'Connor pointless.
Melville is long-winded
But I love Twain
August 25 at 11:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Melville is good. But i am cooling on Twain.
August 25 at 11:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Graham Greene, Kurt Vonnegut, Walker Percy, William Faulkner, Herman Melville, Mark Twain, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Ernest Hemingway, John Steinbeck, Flannery O'Connor, Ray Bradbury, Cormac McCarthy, Edgar Allen Poe, David Foster Wallace, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Jack London, Robert Penn Warren...all really bad, eh?
August 25 at 11:29pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I haven't read most of them, mostly because (a) I don't read much literature and (b) when I do, I prefer to read English authors.
August 25 at 11:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well, that speaks for itself. Haha
August 25 at 11:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's probably not great literature, but I think reading Asimov helps one understand the modern scientific point of view.
August 25 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger O Connor has craft. Its her grotesque that gives pause and the just what is she doing. But i much prefer the music of the older poets and the beauty. The music is very important.
August 25 at 11:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Asimov is very good. The Caves of Steel is a personal favorite.
August 25 at 11:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Willa Cather - My Antonia. *drops mic*
August 25 at 11:33pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I do like My Antonia.
August 25 at 11:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger isak. That list has a couple decent and and one horrific.
August 25 at 11:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, I don't think any of those authors compare to people like Dickens, Jane Austen and Wodehouse.
August 25 at 11:35pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Gonna make me guess the horrific? Is it Faulkner?
August 25 at 11:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger none are great.
August 25 at 11:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley (I'd probably bet $5 on that claim)
August 25 at 11:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You mean the authors you mostly haven't read?
August 25 at 11:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Oh I know. You don't like DFW.
August 25 at 11:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger steinback is a terrible writer every way. There are a few decent but they are not great.
August 25 at 11:38pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley That's where the bet comes in, Isak
August 25 at 11:38pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The author of East of Eden = terrible writer? I really don't even know how to respond to that, but that's all right. Can I ask, would you explain what you mean by "great?" Maybe we're not really disagreeing very much.
August 25 at 11:39pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wodehouse is very funny, Edward, but I don't think he's much more than light entertainment. Not that that's a bad thing, of course.
August 25 at 11:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Well, I think he has a nearly perfect command of language.
August 25 at 11:41pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger The author of grapes of wrath cant write a story. Maybe east of eden is much better.
August 25 at 11:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley I also think people tend to give comedy short shrift
August 25 at 11:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley And he's much better at short stories than O'Connor.
August 25 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger wodehouse is good.
August 25 at 11:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger O Connor definitely can write.
August 25 at 11:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But there are few good at comedy.
August 25 at 11:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wodehouse is good. He's definitely not better at short stories than O'Connor. But I suppose in the end, comparing those two is like comparing apples and wheelbarrows.
Also - no one who loves O'Connor is giving comedy short shrift. She's as funny as they come.
August 25 at 11:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley My personal theory about O'Connor is that people find her confusing and confuse that with depth.
August 25 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Now you're trolling. I refuse to bite.
August 25 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia O'Connor's novels are underrated
August 25 at 11:47pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict ^Wise Blood is a truly great American novel.
August 25 at 11:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia although her short stories might be overrated
August 25 at 11:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes that
August 25 at 11:48pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I stick with the old since I read little literature now. Perhaps that will change again.
August 25 at 11:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I love Knut Hamsen. there I said it. Norway for the win!
August 25 at 11:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's pretty hard to overrate Parker's Back, or A View of the Woods...
August 25 at 11:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes but a good man is hard to find
August 25 at 11:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Everyone should read "Growth of the Soil" but Knut Hamsen
August 25 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I see what you did there.
August 25 at 11:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger You can overrate by calling her great. That is all.
August 25 at 11:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Of course, aren't we forgetting this wonderful small-town piece of classic American literature - "Under the Bleachers," by Seymour Butts?
August 25 at 11:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But you haven't said what you mean by "great."
August 25 at 11:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger
August 25 at 11:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger great = what one ought never tire of rereading. You like?
August 25 at 11:56pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Irving is good (lacks depth). Great because i dont tire of rereading. His stories are perfect.
August 26 at 12:00am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Clever, but incomplete.
August 26 at 12:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger then complete.
August 26 at 12:02am · Like
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John Ruplinger I think great is as the wise man might judge. I lean on them and find after years they are right. Many factors in judging. But craft and substance are important as well as the beauty or wisdom they reveal and the wonder they foster.
August 26 at 12:06am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I : American novelists :: a certain person : sacra doctrina
August 26 at 12:07am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A question that has been bothering me of late: how is the lady in Eliot's "Portrait of a Lady" presented?
August 26 at 12:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger I can also articulate at length the deficiencies of many of those authors. I guess i mean the measure is not my ability to reread but this: that we either continually learn something new with each reading or delight in the story again and again. But the wise understand best and have best taste and in their absence good poets are guides as well.
August 26 at 12:31am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It's that time again.
August 26 at 12:36am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson All we had at the house was Episode 1.
Tired.
End of day.
Wife gone.
I was sorely tempted.
But I couldn't sell my children out like that. So I walked all three of em down to the village and rented Episode IV, blue ray.
August 26 at 1:14am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/pCjMGOvMghY
Star Wars Talk to Your Kids PSA
Star Wars fan dads discuss how they will talk to their kids about Star Wars.
August 26 at 1:15am · Like
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Isak Benedict If the "I" in your analogy stands for "Isak," Edward - that's pretty funny. But I would hope I'm a better listener than a certain person. Also, we've all read the stuff he's quoting. You already said you hadn't read the authors I mentioned.
John, defining great literature as "that which one ought never tire of rereading" is still appealing to an undefined standard. Why "ought" one not tire of rereading such and such a book? Since that standard or measure is undefined, it seems to me that your definition relies too much on the arbitrary. What of the person who enjoys rereading Twilight, or Harlequin romance novels?
Remember too that Don Quixote never tired of reading and rereading his chivalrous adventure novels - and his brain dried up.
That's why I said your definition is incomplete. In all honesty though, I'm not sure I can define a great novel or novelist either.
August 26 at 1:26am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ah! And I just saw your followup comment. Somehow my screen is not updating the thread in real time. I agree more with your new qualification.
However, I do not see why articulating the deficiencies of authors makes one a better reader of literature.
August 26 at 1:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict By that I mean something like:
"Vonnegut was a humanist."
"Yeah, so what?"
"So he's a deficient author."
Maybe that's not what you mean. If it is, I don't agree.
August 26 at 1:54am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
August 26 at 2:14am · Like · 3
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John Kunz That's just good parenting Matthew. The original not bastardized original releases are possibly to be blu ray'd prior to the magisterium's celebration of the fake date of Christ's birth.
August 26 at 2:56am · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron To define great lit well I think you have to get a little outside philosophy and plant a foot in the worlds of both art and (don't shoot me) history and culture. Great writers, aside from technical control and wisdom about human nature / the human condition, are also men and women of their time. Yeah, Shakespeare and Austen wear well through the centuries, but that is not because they removed themselves from the concerns and styles of their age, but because they embraced them so thoroughly. I also therefore think that there is a good case, in literature, for looking to minority writers and writers from other countries/ cultures to complete the picture. Literature is NOT philosophy.
August 26 at 6:23am · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron I think THE literary art form of our age, though, is film. It's weird, because a film is always a group project. But re envisioning what art can be given the tools we have -- that's humanity. London made Shakespeare possible, Gutenberg made Tolstoy possible, the camera ... Well, who ARE the greatest screenwriters and directors of our age? Perhaps I'm off in thinking this way. I'm open to being convinced otherwise .... But I'd need real convincing.
August 26 at 6:35am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know Megan, film lends itself to passivity in a way that reading can't. There has always been trash literature (see also, Dumas) but in film it seems from a first glance that the trash is more.... voyeuristic? Is that the right word? And I'm not talking trash as in inappropriate film, but just "a movie" - like any summer action film. The way in which it entertains is different, and I would probably argue, lesser.
(Except Trollhunter)
August 26 at 7:20am · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Couldn't you same the same of drama, Michael? Shakespeare? I mean, consider The Godfather.
August 26 at 7:26am · Like
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Megan Caughron Yes, it transports. I think that's why Shakespeare would have been all over it (see end of Tempest and A Midsummer Nights Dream). And Tolkien said fantasy wouldn't work as drama -- but his objections were pragmatic, and have been overcome by technology. (Which surprised me when I read it - !!)
August 26 at 7:29am · Like
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Michael Beitia Maybe it's a defect in me, but plays are about dialogue, not exploding cars and gun fights.
Personally, I've always liked the music/poetry comparison more than the film/literature comparison. But then you have film makers who were playwrights, like Mammet, right? very dialogue focused movies. But is that great? I know CGI makes me want to turn a film off, but I can watch a fully animated movie. It's a confused jumble here, no clear thoughts on the subject.
August 26 at 7:38am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund http://thomasaquinas.edu/about/nieto-a-study-film
“A Study of Film” | Thomas Aquinas College
thomasaquinas.edu
August 26 at 8:08am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia 1) I have no speakers at work.
2) and hour + of Johnny Neat-o? That's a lot to ask
3) You really do have a link for everything, don't you Pater?
August 26 at 8:11am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia can you summarize?
August 26 at 8:11am · Like
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Megan Caughron Thanks for the link -- going on my list of things to watch! Incidentally, films that inform my thinking on this would be Babette's Feast (confluence of dialogue and image / color is really moving), Twelve Angry Men (originally a play, but the use of camera on faces develops it well... and nothing much "happens" but my 17-year-old girls were enthralled with the film), Inception (which is best and perhaps only done on film... and perhaps ends with a slick meta-commentary on the art of film itself as a "shared dream"...). Just thinking out loud. As usual. Ha!
August 26 at 8:21am · Like
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Katie Duda I would amend the statement film is passive. Film when all the elements come together seamlessly can be very manipulative and the experience is more immediate. I don't like grouping film and literature, but they do have narrative in common. Film has at its disposal so many tools to tell a story and very different tools than literature. (Think the way Citizen Kane works with physical size; Wizard of Oz and color). But I often find that something has to alert me to a filmic device in order that I watch the film "actively." Reading... I see and appreciate device everywhere but this might come down to training/indoctrination at this point.
August 26 at 8:22am · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron Film might better be called "art form" than literature. It does involve literary elements, but ... yeah. I'd be willing to say it's not literature. But then ... what do we do with Shakespeare and Ibsen?
August 26 at 8:23am · Like
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Clayton Brockman Earlier it was mentioned and questioned: "Where did the poets [specifically the epic poets] go? Is it Tolkien or whoever?" You guys, especially you guys in this thread, are not going to like the answer. After studying the epic form and whatnot for a lot of grad school, the art form that these people followed was not film. Film is where the Tragedians and Comedians went. The epic-writers went to video games. (Drops mic)
August 26 at 8:23am · Like · 7
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Megan Caughron Huh! (And why wouldn't "we guys" like the idea that the epic poets went to video games? Despite being accused of being unable to think outside the box, I think "we" (whoever that is...) -- like any other rational human being -- are perfectly capable of thinking not only outside the box, but about the box itself. Just weigh in, man, and assume nothing!)
August 26 at 8:26am · Edited · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I don't play video games. Is there "epic-wholeness" in video games?
August 26 at 8:26am · Edited · Like · 2
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Clayton Brockman Whoa there Tex, where you stand in relation to the box is no interest of mine. I just didn't think that scholars wouid think much of video games. According to research into epic as an art form, one of the qualifying essential criteria for an epic is that it must contain a struggle against the inevitable. In _The Iliad_, the gods struggle against Zeus or the humans struggle against Hera, etc.. The drama created by that resistance is what creates the content of the epic. _Paradise Lost_ and _Jerusalem Delivered_ follow the same rule. There was also a heavy audience-participation element assumed to be in each epic, though that's less essential and more an artifact of its origin.
August 26 at 8:27am · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron Then maybe you be hanging with the wrong scholars. my friend.
August 26 at 8:28am · Like
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Katie Duda Not true. There is no limit to what scholars take seriously. (Also have a friend writing on video game music). Going back to epic and video games? Why? Let me be a devil's advocate for a moment and present an argument not my own- our cosmology eschews wholeness, therefore the epic withers as a contemporary form. Not being familiar with video games, why are they epic?
August 26 at 8:30am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman And that certainly used to be true! But anyways, in a video game, it's the content itself that struggle against you, the player. The drama of overcoming the game as its plot struggles against you, the inevitable winner, is what creates the content of the game.
August 26 at 8:31am · Like · 3
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Clayton Brockman And the video game ignores the popular cosmology because they are intentionally made to be counter-cultural. It's ironic, I guess? They are wholly self-contained, because they need to be to make money. So I guess it's a sort of Capitalist-epic?
August 26 at 8:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Does Harry Potter count as an epic?
August 26 at 8:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman By the way, Dobby dies. DOBBY DIES!
August 26 at 8:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Granted it might not be a very good epic, but still...
August 26 at 8:39am · Like
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Katie Duda I will ask a really fundamentally dumb question about video games: DEATH. Is there really any video game death?
August 26 at 8:39am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Which one was Dobby? Was he the red haired kid?
August 26 at 8:39am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Yeah there is in some of the larger plots, but usually the video game has to break its own suspension-of-disbelief-rules in order to have death. So, if a character must die, then all of the other tricks that the player has learned to avoid death or cheat death are taken from them. That's the Epic-ist taking control back, I suppose.
August 26 at 8:41am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Oh jeez, Lendman liked my post about Dobby. He wasn't the red-haired kid, was he?
August 26 at 8:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
August 26 at 8:45am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I just watched the movies recently.
August 26 at 8:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Never finished the books. I got lost in book 4 and never came out.
August 26 at 8:46am · Like
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Clayton Brockman Book 4 was the one with the Twilight Guy that died right?
August 26 at 8:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman lol
August 26 at 8:49am · Like
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Clayton Brockman Oh Jeez it's finally happened. I'm "out of touch."
August 26 at 8:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Clayton, the Legend of Zelda is epic from its inception (first video game where you could save your progress) all the way through the franchise. (skyward sword kinda sucked however)
August 26 at 9:14am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://news.lib.uchicago.edu/.../videogame-collection.../
Videogame collection supports scholarly study | The University of Chicago Library News
news.lib.uchicago.edu
After several months of fascinating discussion about emerging interest in the academic study of videogames, I am overjoyed that the University of Chicago Library has acquired its first videogame collection, and that these games will soon be available for borrowing from the Mansueto Library. Why, som…
August 26 at 9:36am · Like
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Pater Edmund Michael Beitia, what is the "work" you are supposedly always also doing when on Facebook?
August 26 at 10:43am · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund Things TAC should add to the program: Bonaventure, Scotus, Ockham, Luther, Calvin, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Goethe's Farbenlehre, Adolf Portmann...
Things that should be cut: Driesch and his stupid e-factor, the SJC measurement manual, but NOT Spenser; The Faerie Queene is good stuff, and I would never have read it if it hadn't been in the program.
Things they should not add: novels that everyone has read anyway, especially highly overrated novels like Gatsby.
August 26 at 10:46am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman You are doing a lot of adding and not much subtracting... The program is already pretty full.
August 26 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I agree with what Joel HF said about putting all of first year lab in 1 semester. That frees up some pace, but not for "Ockham, Luther, Calvin, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Goethe's Farbenlehre, Adolf Portmann..."
August 26 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Wait up, I'm not done. The encyclicals should be taken out of seminar, and some Papal and Conciliar teachings added to theology.
August 26 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland ^^This is starting to sound a little familiar.
August 26 at 10:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We are in the Second Enlightenment of the Never Ending Thread.
August 26 at 10:51am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman But since there is not properly speaking before and after, only above and below, this can really be considered the same as the First Enlightenment.
August 26 at 10:52am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Consequently, it should sound familiar.
August 26 at 10:53am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Papal and Conciliar teachings=the M word. But you really should just have lectures about them, since laymen aren't qualified to really understand or discuss divine things.
August 26 at 10:53am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am not opposed to moving the Encyclicals to Theology. But I would not know what to move out of theology as is.
August 26 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund You could just have them in the last class of each semester, the way St Th.'s proemium to In Post. An. is done in the last class of Freshman Phil.
August 26 at 10:55am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Oh look, it’s the statement that Rome made Bautain sign:
“We promise for now and forever: NEVER TO TEACH … 3 that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics, and the truths depending on it, as a science totally distinct from supernatural theology, which is founded on divine revelation…”
August 26 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Neat!
August 26 at 10:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia Pater, work!? It's what I get paid (poorly) for doing
August 26 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and thanks for the reboot. I thought I killed it with a scholarly study of Zelda
August 26 at 11:00am · Like · 6
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Catherine Ryland On track for 4000.
August 26 at 11:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia Wasn't Heidegger added to the program? When I was there we had seminars at Ferrier's house and one in the Library with Father Sokolowski from CUA on a couple of his texts (maybe one at Hartmann,s too.... my memory fades)
August 26 at 11:08am · Like
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John Ruplinger Potter is epic indeed!!! (see edit: non -Potter fans only or you may need salts.)
August 26 at 11:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think "What is Metaphysics" should be added if it isn't already
August 26 at 11:13am · Like
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John Ruplinger "What is magisterium?" magisterially speaking of course.
August 26 at 11:20am · Like · 3
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Katie Duda GATSBY 4EVAH!
August 26 at 11:20am · Like
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Katie Duda (kidding)
August 26 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia How about Moar Russan liderature?
August 26 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *drinks White Russian*
August 26 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *drinks another White Russian*
August 26 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think if there is more literature, surreality would be good. How about "Invitation to a Beheading" or "The Trial"
August 26 at 11:27am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Does anyone ever get through the required Thomas at the end of Year to have time to add other stuff in there as well?
August 26 at 11:27am · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Megan Caughron - I just want to point out one big difference I see between live drama and film. It seems to me that film is a primarily visual medium, which is why one refers to its consumers as viewers. Theater, on the other hand, is primarily ordered to the ear, which is why one refers to those attending as an audience (audio, audire). You go watch a movie. You go hear a play.
August 26 at 11:28am · Unlike · 5
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Becca Cupo Are you all going to get together for a party and have a shot every time "Sacred Theology" is mentioned? I honestly don't have enough time to see if this has already been mentioned, but I really, really love this thread.
August 26 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Isak that seems totally specious
August 26 at 11:29am · Like
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JA Escalante well, not totally. Just *mostly* specious
August 26 at 11:29am · Like
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Isak Benedict Pater - although many have read Gatsby, few have read it properly. I can't blame you for referring to it as overrated, really, but I'd still defend it as a sacramental masterpiece.
August 26 at 11:30am · Like
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JA Escalante oh people, "sacramental" is not a term of literary criticism. When will you ever learn
August 26 at 11:31am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Magisterium, magisterium, magisterium; repeat, repeat, repeat. whoops that was for Isak.
August 26 at 11:32am · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So it's right, but only superficially? Haha
August 26 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And when the author himself uses the language of incarnation and holocaust, I think I'm justified in referring to it as sacramental. So there!
August 26 at 11:33am · Like
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JA Escalante nope
August 26 at 11:33am · Like
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Isak Benedict Am too
August 26 at 11:33am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Isak, I do like Seamus Heaney. His translation of Beowulf was smooth. My concern about form and metre is that even the formless poets have some form. Their words fall into some form. The days of Pope's heroic couplets may be dead, they may not work today, but what is the form today?
August 26 at 11:34am · Like
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Katie Duda I would add some Kafka (I know people have read it), The Cherry Orchard or the Seagull, and some lyric poetry of the English kind- Byron, Gray, etc., +Night and/or Ivan Denisovich. (But yeah, now I am getting too far ahead and not sure what is a *great* book at that point, but would like to incorporate how the suffering of Twentieth century is handled- it still being formative)
August 26 at 11:38am · Edited · Like · 2
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Katie Duda (speaking only of lit I would add)
August 26 at 11:40am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think American literature is great. It is curious though, that it does not rise to the level. In content. Mark Twain, Longfellow -- the last great American poet. None of them break out into epic greatness, which is curious. Because every great age has had poets that do this, and America is arguably the greatest nation ever. This may be because American greatness is about the little guy with unalienable rights fighting for freedom, and because America is built around eternal rights of the person. Other covilizations which housed the greater poets provided more societal data. Poets needs to become more spiritual in America before they will be able to connect the dots of liberty. Just a theory. But what form would that take?
August 26 at 11:41am · Like
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Sean Plus Anne Schniederjan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ux3-a9RE1Q
Cover Of The Rolling Stone-Dr.Hook
"(cover of the rolling stone) is property of (DR. Hook) and it's producers and/or promoters and is used here pursuant to the fair use provision of the DMCA a...
August 26 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure There have been a series of great novellae throughout the ages that all have the same character with a similar plot; Kafka's Amerika; Sam Jonson's Rasselas; Evelyn Waugh's Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold; Camu's L'Etranger; and Gunter Grass's Cat and Mouse; and Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby. The Novella is an interesting form. But again, no great American Novella. Just toss outs that end up in Time's Store of Used Books.
August 26 at 11:47am · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele what about taking out Don Quixote? Unless someone else has already mentioned this. Also I don't see why we need two Freud seminars. I agree about adding Scotus and Bonaventure somewhere...
August 26 at 11:48am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I'd also make a big ole push for Havel's the power of the powerless. But I just think that's a damn fine essay
August 26 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Denzinger and Ott are two of the best poets.
August 26 at 11:50am · Like
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Nina Rachele we might as well say it, you could fix almost all the problems with pacing and cover "everything" if you just added a fifth year. yes, everything needed quotation marks.
August 26 at 11:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger FOR ISAK. Some lengthier consideration. Criticism is easier, but I'm not just criticizing. Below is a start on distinguishing truly great literature from the slop of recent vintage. Much more needs to be said.
August 26 at 11:52am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger To the question of what is “great”, and important question for a program that sometimes at least claims to be great books (at other times not).
I believe Adler defines it as rereadable. Others as what time approves. If the latter, we can't call anything great but must leave it for the next age.
But are there any criteria by which we may judge? I don't agree entirely with the view of picking out those books that have developed our present culture. Not merely that at least, and ESPECIALLY so in literature (perhaps equally so in philosophy). Partly, the reason is that I regard the rise of modernity (in politics, philosophy, theology, and literature too) as a rejection of the ancients and the Church. Whereas Aquinas had the luxury (as well as Augustine) of picking out anything that was finely or rightly said by contemporary and ancient authors, we are now more involved in a war rather than a “great discussion”. Swift illustrates this in his intro to the Tale of Tub in one of my favorites “The Battle of the Books.” He demonstrates this poetically which I think I can demonstrate in bits and pieces only.
But as to literature or poetry and what qualifies as great, here's a few problems for recent novels (and is true of most American novels and a lot of poetry). In fact I recommend Rip van Winkle which is my favorite short American story (and I just realized as a kid I had his nickname, perhaps a part of the grand divine irony). The most significant change in the revolution I see therein is the loss of leisure, without which the poetic arts suffer grievously. One thing poetry (good poetry that is though not necessarily great) does is hold a mirror up to society (another aim being to concretize truth or point to beauty – Fr. Chad Ripperberger has an excellent essay on this, I believe on his site http://www.sensustraditionis.org/ChristianArtCulture.pdf ). Poetry can be more helpful for this because prudential judgement and politics are based on the concrete. Since we have no experience of pre-Revolutionary America, the poet (often an excellent observer) can show us what we cannot see ourselves and so aid us in making generalizations and judgements. Before reading Michael D. O'Brien's book “Strangers and Sojourners” I had difficulty understanding what distributism was, but in that he showed it (a kind of side point of it). He presented facts that one doesn't do. Likewise, our love of Hamlet these days (a play derided and unliked until this century) is a mirror for what most ails us, and after many years I think I finally see the horror of that image. THAT is one measure of the good poet. Can he hold a mirror to society (as Tennyson does in “Ulysses” which Eliot gives as an example of a perfect poem and I could write a few interesting comments on that too)? ANOTHER is “is it beautiful?” Does it direct us to love of the true? I see that in Dryden's ode to St. Cecilia.
And the music is important especially in the later, because in odes (which are akin very much to hymns and even the same kind of thing really) we are attuned to the truly beautiful and truth itself. For this reason a poet like Tennyson is well worth studying. Even if his subject matter was less than worthy, his ear for the music of language is one of the best; in that he is amazing. The problem of much recent writing is the poet himself has lost the very purpose of poetry. These are just a couple considerations. The aim of tragedy/ comedy is more to hold up a mirror and by means of irony to point out the flaws as for correction. Thus Homer, I must say, is as ironic as Plato – indeed perhaps taught the Greeks that art. So many of his lines surpass anything written since like “she shed a light tear.” Can one ever fail to smile at that? Does it lose its vigor? Is it not still true to this day? The irony of what Achilles does immediately after proclaiming his everlasting love for Briseis. But almost every line of Homer is full of such, like Agammenon “leaning” on his scepter. For irony, as Aristotle points out, is the humor of the wise man (and indeed he too is full of such). Anyways, something to consider.
August 26 at 11:52am · Like
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Pater Edmund Isak Benedict, your taste in literature is obviously good. (By which I really mean that the fact that you mentioned David Foster Wallace, about whom I am writing a dissertation, endears you to me). So you've introduced some doubt into my mind about Gatsby. But the problem with Gatsby seems to me that one never really cares about the characters. Sure they symbolize cool stuff and all, but that's all they do (unlike the characters in Faerie Queene )
August 26 at 11:56am · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think in modern poetry, the heroic couplet has fallen apart, like the pieces of a broken barrel, and the metal hoops that bind them all, and the bottom, the broken bottom; and the modern poet picks them all up in his arms, and with his hands rearranges them. He makes it up, going along. If it sounds okay, it's okay. There's no poetics in poetry these days.
August 26 at 11:58am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Is David Foster Wallace worth doing a dissertation on? He wrote about substance abuse centers; The Pale King is all broken up.
August 26 at 12:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I haven't read Wallace. Should I put him on my list?
August 26 at 12:04pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Without a doubt, The Great Gatsby is the first great American novella.
August 26 at 12:12pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Pope's mock-epic is the best ever:
Oft when the World imagine Women stray,
The Sylphs thro' mystick Mazes guide their Way,
Thro' all the giddy Circle they pursue,
And old Impertinence expel by new.
What tender Maid but must a Victim fall
To one Man's Treat, but for another's Ball?
When Florio speaks, what Virgin could withstand,
If gentle Damon did not squeeze her Hand?
With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,
They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;
Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,
Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.
This erring Mortals Levity may call,
Oh blind to Truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.
August 26 at 12:25pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,
They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;
August 26 at 12:25pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,
Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.
August 26 at 12:26pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure This erring Mortals Levity may call,
Oh blind to Truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.
August 26 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Kunz Gatsby is horse poop. Overrated, underwhelming. Great for marketing though. The first true soap opera. Much like the 20's Kardashian's.
August 26 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure You can't back that up. Gatsby is a great novella, in form and content and lyrical style.
August 26 at 12:28pm · Like
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Katie Duda "Is X worth writing a dissertation on?" A question only possible for someone who has blissfully never written a dissertation.
August 26 at 12:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Rolling back......
Why are we talking about literature? It think it plain that studying both poetry and (most) fiction (fine, I'll add drama too) is (nearly) a complete waste of time in Seminar.
I think there should be a seminar drinking game. Every time someone cherishes their pet crackpot literary theory everyone takes a shot. Poetry HAS to be read out loud. There isn't any other way to do it.
August 26 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I am in complete disbelief that somebody suggested taking Don Q. out of the program.
August 26 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 5
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Sean Robertson For me how much I got out of the literature seminars came down to which tutor I had. Some tutors were able to make the works earth-shattering and incredible, while with others all I got out of it was what I got out of it by reading it. But I disagree that they are a waste of time.
August 26 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nonono the literature isn't the waste of time. Just the class
August 26 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Again, I think that's pretty much 50/50.
August 26 at 12:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So much to respond to. So little time.
August 26 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson But maybe that makes you right....
August 26 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson But I am still interested to see what Pater would take out of the program in order to insert the names he suggested above.
August 26 at 12:55pm · Like
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Claire Keeler The more I like a book the more I hated doing a seminar on it. I'm being totally honest. I had to walk out of a few of them because I couldn't take the relentless plot and character dissection.
August 26 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, Heidegger is not in the curriculum.
August 26 at 12:56pm · Like
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Katie Duda I think both Don Q and W and P are elegantly situated to predict some of the questions that motivate the other texts. I found classes on them highly frustrating because, first of all, there were two each. Not like, say 5 or 6, on the earlier stuff (Illiad, Odyssey, Aeneid, DC). I also liked A(ll)S(chool)S(eminar) on Death of Ivan Ilych and Murder in the Cathedral. But seminars were also frustrating because people were all over the place.
August 26 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Study literature as poetics, because it supports metaphysics and faith at the same time. Still a problem with the faithful being attracted towards the great secular literary writers, as the early Christian clergy were drawn towards the pagan philosophers. We need the light of the pagan philosophers, but also need the pull revelation.
August 26 at 1:01pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thomas Aquinas was a great poet. His metaphor, Christ is a merciful Pelican, a bestiary.
Adoro te devote, latens Deitas,
Quæ sub his figuris vere latitas;
Tibi se cor meum totum subjicit,
Quia te contemplans totum deficit.
Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur,
Sed auditu solo tuto creditur.
Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius;
Nil hoc verbo veritátis verius.
In cruce latebat sola Deitas,
At hic latet simul et Humanitas,
Ambo tamen credens atque confitens,
Peto quod petivit latro pœnitens.
Plagas, sicut Thomas, non intueor:
Deum tamen meum te confiteor.
Fac me tibi semper magis credere,
In te spem habere, te diligere.
O memoriale mortis Domini!
Panis vivus, vitam præstans homini!
Præsta meæ menti de te vívere,
Et te illi semper dulce sapere.
Pie Pelicane, Jesu Domine,
Me immundum munda tuo sanguine:
Cujus una stilla salvum facere
Totum mundum quit ab omni scelere.
Jesu, quem velatum nunc aspicio,
Oro, fiat illud quod tam sitio:
Ut te revelata cernens facie,
Visu sim beátus tuæ gloriæ.
August 26 at 1:03pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Yes! Don Q. is the perfect introduction/remedy to the authors read in junior seminar. And we also had really good All-schools on Murder in the Cathedral and Gunnar's Daughter, although again, mostly thanks to the tutors.
August 26 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure The symbolism of the mother pelican feeding her baby pelicans with her own flesh and blood is rooted in an ancient legend which preceded Christianity. This tradition is found in the Physiologus, an early Christian bestiary, which appeared in the second century in Alexandria.
August 26 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Sean Robertson: Goethe on color and Portmann would replace the Measurement manual. Heidegger and Wittgenstein would replace the magisterial texts in senior seminar. And Bonaventure, Scotus, Ockham, Luther, and Calvin could be included by having sophomore seminar twice a week.
August 26 at 1:09pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Don Q is important because it precedes the modern English novel, and it is best of the Spanish in the tradition of the chivalric novel. It's part of a whole trend that lasted 400 years.
August 26 at 1:10pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda Once upon a time in a senior seminar long long ago, there was a girl who was so derailing in conversation that all the other students would only ignore her. She claimed that many of the texts were not worth the time. She coped by at first hiding Jane Austen novels behind her other book, but then grew so angry at the class's disregard that she read them openly, trying to draw attention to herself and holding the book upright on the table. That made reading literature (et al) frustrating....
August 26 at 1:10pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele ^what Katie Duda said. Don Q needs at least 3 or 4 seminarrs if not more. There are some things that seem worth doing partially, but with a book like that... I'd rather take it out completely, which is why I suggested it. I know, it's a little defeatist of me.
August 26 at 1:13pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure http://www.rna.org/news/184377/Beasts-from-the-East.htm
“Beasts from the East” - RELIGION | NEWSWRITERS
www.rna.org
Fairfax, VA (For Immediate Release) -- Eastern Christian Publications announces the publication of a series of original Catholic devotionals entitled The Blessed Book of Beasts, written by Jonathan Scott. Featuring virtually every animal named in the Bible, it uses classical literary forms from the…
August 26 at 1:14pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Interesting. Although I'm not sure that there is room in the theology tutorial for those magisterial texts. Also, the chosen encyclicals generally are at least partially in response to the works read in senior seminar, so keeping them in there helps continuity in the class, I think. They should, however, move those texts individually to immediately follow the texts to which they relate most (Humani Generis after Darwin, Pascendi after Jung et al., etc.), instead of just throwing them in at the end.
August 26 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson And I wonder how possible it would be to have sophomores do two seminars a week. I think that might do more harm than good.
August 26 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure You need to get more magisterial texts and doctrine into the curriculum somehow. It is the glue that binds the airplane together, without which the kids will never fly.
August 26 at 1:17pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure If you put more magisterial texts in the body, you can build bigger wings.
August 26 at 1:18pm · Like
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Katie Duda Can I get real excited about my crackpot literary theory yet?
August 26 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes.
August 26 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Duda's theory of literary activism.
August 26 at 1:21pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Nina, I definitely agree that those things need longer study, but I still think they're worthwhile to do quickly. It does occur to me though, that my appreciation for Don Q. didn't reach its fullness until the post-seminar discussions.
August 26 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson The thing is, with almost every work we read in seminar, it really needs a much more thorough examination. We only skim the surface with most of those works (although I think we do a pretty good job given the circumstances). That's when I have to remind myself that the curriculum is really just a beginning.
August 26 at 1:25pm · Like
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Sean Robertson And that "we do a pretty good job" comment probably applies more to the philosophers in seminar than the literature.
August 26 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Has anyone looked at the metaphysical art and theory of Carl Schmitt? His grandchildren and great grandchildren have gone to Thomas Aquinas College. I studied art theory and criticism for about a decade, and I don't think I've read anything quite so on the money. I just wish he wrote more.
He basically says the artist imposes form on non-formal, and formal, unities in nature, and then shares this in the form of his work of art. This is aligned with orthodox mysticism of the East and Western Churches, avoids modern art heresies such as sacramentalism, and bridges the gap between the classical formalists and the present. It gets us around the wasteland.
http://www.carlschmitt.org/
Carl Schmitt
www.carlschmitt.org
August 26 at 1:26pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure You need a trained literary instructor. It took "scholars" 150 years to figure out what Pope was doing. But a good teacher can demonstrate that in 10 minutes. It is a balance of trust between the tutor and the student.
August 26 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I believe Carl Schmitt was a tutor in the early days of the college, before he went off to found the Trivium School to prepare highschoolers for TAC.
August 26 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Pater, according to Dr. MacArthur, they did read Calvin at some point. I don't remember exactly why he said they removed it, but I think they either wanted to add something they thought was better or they generally found the discussions to be a waste of time.
August 26 at 1:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley As far as Scotus goes, I'm not sure he'd be worthwhile at TAC: not because it isn't important to read him, but he's so complicated that he'd need more time than the program has to spare.
August 26 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how about Suarez?
August 26 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Edward Langley, no haha, that was John Schmitt. _Carl_ Schmitt was the brilliant, scary German Jurist who wrote Political Theology.
August 26 at 1:43pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Speaking of the Christian bestiary, if anyone wants a copy of the first one written since the Middle Ages, please log on to:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
secure.webvalence.com
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
August 26 at 1:44pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Edward, that was Carl Schmitt's son who taught at TAC and founded the Trivium. You may be related to him by marriage thrice removed. I just find it incredibly curious how Schmitt NAILED art theory, but TAC begins with Euclid and spends about one day on Poetics. Ne'er forget, Thomas Aquinas mastered the metaphor.
August 26 at 1:48pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Philosophy + Theology > Art
August 26 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sacred theology > Metaphysics = Philosophy + Theology
August 26 at 1:51pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Art is just a making. It comes from the skill of the artist, and how he views the world. How he views the world depends on how he has learned, and grace. This informs the artist's observation, and his making.
August 26 at 1:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So Ed, are you jettisoning literature for more Philosophy and Theology at the seminar level?
August 26 at 2:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley I would, but I think too much more philosophy would dramatically increase burnout rates.
Also, Kierkegaard delenda est
August 26 at 2:24pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia why? Because phil/theo is superior, or because the classes on it are superior? or both?
August 26 at 2:25pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure With all due respect, I do not think anyone from Thomas Aquinas College understands the critical importance of a new art theory of realism. The founders and the tutors of the college could not explain the formal and material elements of metaphor and enthymeme if the world depended on it. The tutors force you to study logical syllogism for two months, but deny metaphor is a syllogism of beauty, and the enthymeme of the good. The curriculum is unable to deliver the transcendentals in a unified manner. So, there is no point reading literature. It undercuts what it sets out to do.
August 26 at 2:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Both, literature analysis always feels like a waste of time to me.
August 26 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "Metaphor is a syllogism of beauty" is a metaphor
August 26 at 2:30pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia ""metaphor is a syllogism of beauty" is a blooming rose" is a metaphor.
August 26 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, metaphor is a syllogism of beauty is literal. Woman is a rose is an example of a metaphor. But what is metaphor? Tom Kaiser couldn't tell you what a metaphor is.
A metaphor is a syllogism that informs the imagination and leads to beauty.
Art is reasonable.
The enthymeme is like this, but in relation to the will and to the good.
This is what Aristotle teaches in his poetics, politics, analytics and movement of animals.
But you do not teach any of this at TAC, so the whole thing undercuts itself.
August 26 at 2:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia here it comes:
http://i279.photobucket.com/.../kk143/faeini1/agscary4.gif
i279.photobucket.com
i279.photobucket.com
August 26 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure It also undercuts the student, who thirsts for transcendental unity. This is because the human soul is one in imagination, reason and will.
August 26 at 2:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I always considered "invisalign braces" to be trancendentistry
August 26 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure That reminds me, I have to call the ortho for my daughter. Thank you!
Her teeth will be flocks of sheep, each one with its pair.
August 26 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I assume by "transcendental unity" you mean good/true/beautiful, but you're assuming an awful lot when you say TAC doesn't understand poetics.
And no, metaphor is not a syllogism, either regular or hypothetical...
August 26 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure You deny a lot of things in your ignorance and universally convert TAC with knowledge.
Metaphor IS a kind of syllogism. It has a premise, with an implied major, leading to a reasonable conclusion by imagination.
Rose is beautiful (implied)
Woman is rose (metaphor)
Woman is beautiful (conclusio)
Enthymeme is a kind of syllogism also. Aristotle states this in Rhetoric.
Yes, transcendtal unity means the spiritual unity of the beauty, good and true. Logical syllogism only leads to true. Metaphor to beauty; enthymeme to good. Intellect, imagination and heart (will) respectively.
For the record, Michael Betia, you just denied all this.
But this is what Aristotle and Thomas taught, as well as Cicero and many others; but you do not learn this at TAC because it was establish by reactionary logicalists.
August 26 at 3:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict AND THEY'RE OFF
August 26 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia See, your inner Linda Blair is coming out again. Your example above shows the metaphor to be the minor premise, which isn't a syllogism, unless you're speaking in synecdoche
August 26 at 3:11pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia synecdoche isn't syllogism either
August 26 at 3:12pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Both metaphor and enthymeme are a kind of syllogism, as the Philosopher states, just as "African" is a kind of man. "The enthymeme is a kind of syllogism" (Rhetoric Bk 1) with an implied major, as is the metaphor, each leading to reasonable conclusions in imagination and will (toward the good), respectively.
Again, you are not competent on this issue. You are like someone denying that Micky Mantle was a baseball player.
FWIW, the form of the syllogism is the same form as transcendental unity, with each form corresponding with the various parts of the one human soul (reason, imagination and will).
August 26 at 3:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger May I confirm that pb is trying to distinguish himself as a master of tropes, Michael?
August 26 at 3:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe he should quote the whole passage
t is clear, then, that rhetorical study, in its strict sense, is concerned with the modes of persuasion. Persuasion is clearly a sort of demonstration, since we are most fully persuaded when we consider a thing to have been demonstrated. The orator's demonstration is an enthymeme, and this is, in general, the most effective of the modes of persuasion. The enthymeme is a sort of syllogism, and the consideration of syllogisms of all kinds, without distinction, is the business of dialectic, either of dialectic as a whole or of one of its branches. It follows plainly, therefore, that he who is best able to see how and from what elements a syllogism is produced will also be best skilled in the enthymeme, when he has further learnt what its subject-matter is and in what respects it differs from the syllogism of strict logic.
August 26 at 3:33pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Synechdoche is just when you take a part of something and use it to stand for the whole, and it has nothing to do with this. I think you just throw it in there to try to sound intelligent, like Langley, which is ashame, because you are both intelligent; but you fail to admit what you do not know, and deny truths which are obvious, such as a thing is defined by its form, metaphor and enthymeme have the form of a syllogism, which is why the Philosopher defines them as a kind of syllogism.
August 26 at 3:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Um, Mr. Not-the-Seraphic-Doctor, we TACers who read the Analytics and the Poetics and the Rhetoric remember passages like this which show that metaphor is not a syllogism but a way of using the name of one thing to signify another.
August 26 at 3:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion. Thus from genus to species, as: 'There lies my ship'; for lying at anchor is a species of lying. From species to genus, as: 'Verily ten thousand noble deeds hath Odysseus wrought'; for ten thousand is a species of large number, and is here used for a large number generally. From species to species, as: 'With blade of bronze drew away the life,' and 'Cleft the water with the vessel of unyielding bronze.' Here arusai, 'to draw away' is used for tamein, 'to cleave,' and tamein, again for arusai- each being a species of taking away. Analogy or proportion is when the second term is to the first as the fourth to the third. We may then use the fourth for the second, or the second for the fourth. Sometimes too we qualify the metaphor by adding the term to which the proper word is relative. Thus the cup is to Dionysus as the shield to Ares. The cup may, therefore, be called 'the shield of Dionysus,' and the shield 'the cup of Ares.' Or, again, as old age is to life, so is evening to day. Evening may therefore be called, 'the old age of the day,' and old age, 'the evening of life,' or, in the phrase of Empedocles, 'life's setting sun.' For some of the terms of the proportion there is at times no word in existence; still the metaphor may be used. For instance, to scatter seed is called sowing: but the action of the sun in scattering his rays is nameless. Still this process bears to the sun the same relation as sowing to the seed. Hence the expression of the poet 'sowing the god-created light.' There is another way in which this kind of metaphor may be employed. We may apply an alien term, and then deny of that term one of its proper attributes; as if we were to call the shield, not 'the cup of Ares,' but 'the wineless cup'. "
August 26 at 3:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IT DIFFERS FROM THE SYLLOGISM OF STRICT LOGIC (emphasis added)
August 26 at 3:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley I wonder if you know what I just quoted from.
August 26 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin lol. of course everything mr. beitia learned about aristotle he learned at tac
August 26 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha how you doing, former roommate?
August 26 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin pretty good!
August 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin How's the fam?
August 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia big and happy. When are you coming up north?
August 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin unfortunately, school does restrict my wandering a bit
August 26 at 3:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as does the fam mine
August 26 at 3:38pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin yes indeed. and I know you love Irving.
August 26 at 3:38pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's one thing to read, another to understand, another to know what you do not know, and another to need to look like the smartest guy in the room.
August 26 at 3:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Love Irving?" that's hyperbole
August 26 at 3:39pm · Like
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Jonathan Carlin well, maybe...
August 26 at 3:40pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphor has also been described as analogy of inverse proportion, by how it predicates the attributes of one thing to another by imagination, and uses the form of a syllogism, as does the enthymeme.
August 26 at 3:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia recapitulate, restate
unlisten
August 26 at 3:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am beginning to suspect that Perigrine is on the payroll of TAC to draw students away from Christendom.
August 26 at 3:45pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the man can derail a conversation as fast as he can start one.
August 26 at 3:48pm · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's charming how TAC denies truth outside the range of its ideology.
Peter is a rock.
Does this mean Peter is a lifeless mass of compressed minerals?
Implied major premise: All rock is solid and a good foundation.
Metaphor: Peter is a rock
Conclusion: Peter is a solid foundation
Metaphor is a kind of syllogism (Aristotle, Thomas, Cicero, Boethius, John Donne...)
***
Enthymeme is a kind of truncated syllogism. Cicero's epichyreme is also a kind of multipremised emthymeme.
(Implied) The virtuous leader opposes tyranny
(Implied) Political walls restrain with tyranny
(Enthymeme) Mr. Gorbachov, tear down that wall
August 26 at 3:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, Peregrine, metaphor is a species of equivocation.
August 26 at 3:58pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure You derailed it.
And it was never a conversation. It's an ideological polemic launched by a sycophant under the guise of truth, taking the names of Thomas and Aristotle and the Catholic Faith in vain.
August 26 at 3:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley It goes like this:
- Equivocation
-- Equivocation by chance
-- Equivocation by design
--- Metaphor, in which the intended meaning is not a meaning of the word
--- Analogy, in which the intended meaning is a meaning of the word
August 26 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley There may be a quasi-syllogistic process that justifies a metaphor, but metaphor is not, of itself, an argument.
August 26 at 4:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Then why does it have the form of a syllogism, mr. smarty-pants?
August 26 at 4:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion"
Aristotle's definition and division of metaphor
August 26 at 4:01pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No one said it was an argument, mt straw man smarty-pants. It's a reasonable play on imagination in the form of a syllogism.
August 26 at 4:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Syllogism just is a greek word meaning argument
August 26 at 4:01pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It's also a word people who are trying to sound "like the smartest guy in the room" use.
August 26 at 4:03pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's the anology by inverse proportion definition. And how come you won't answer the question. If metaphor and enthymeme are not a kind of syllogism, why do they take the form of a syllogism.
August 26 at 4:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley I admit enthymeme is a syllogism, that is an argument.
I deny that metaphor is.
August 26 at 4:03pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Syllogism is a form.
August 26 at 4:04pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Metaphor is a reasonable appeal to the imagination, enthymeme to the will. This is why they have the same reasonable form as syllogism.
You're just in denial because this was not in your indocrination.
August 26 at 4:06pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure The reasonableness in form is a cause of transcentental unity.
August 26 at 4:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley You're just asserting the things your teachers told you to assert.
August 26 at 4:07pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure ... unity between truth, beauty and goodness, in a rational soul comprised of imagination, will and intellect.
August 26 at 4:09pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure My teachers were the Great Books. They did not force me to drink Kool-Aid.
August 26 at 4:10pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Your teachers told you to drink the Kool-Aid of the Nile.
August 26 at 4:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley At least at TAC we're willing to admit that the Great Books for the most part don't teach themselves.
August 26 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure What does metaphor mean in Greek, Herr Langley? Beyond something, right?
August 26 at 4:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger how, how, o how can one call a metaphor a syllogism? Perhaps we need to start at the beginning. What is a noun for pb?
August 26 at 4:12pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ah, so you do need a teacher, then? Is this was you're admitting too now?
August 26 at 4:13pm · Like
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Joel HF My, oh my. I guess I missed my window to talk about literature at TAC.
August 26 at 4:14pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Edward Langley "a carrying across" "meta-phorein"
August 26 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Why don't you answer the question, Herr Langley?
Why does a metaphor and an enthymeme have the same form as a rational syllogism?
August 26 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley The name of one thing is "carried across" to signify another thing improperly.
August 26 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley I did: enthymeme does, quodammodo, metaphor doesn't
August 26 at 4:15pm · Like
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Joel HF PB, of course we need teachers. We can hardly be expected to indoctrinate ourselves.
August 26 at 4:15pm · Unlike · 7
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thank you, and what is carried across in a metaphor?
August 26 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Because metaphor is a way of using words, not a way of arguing
August 26 at 4:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley As I said, the word is carried across.
August 26 at 4:16pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure That is not an answer. It is a false denial. It is self- evident they have the same form.
If the metaphor and enthymeme are not both kinds of syllogism, then why do they both have the same form?
August 26 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley This is the form of a metaphor: Beatrice is a rose.
August 26 at 4:21pm · Like
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Joel HF So, in fixing TAC curriculum, I like Pater Edmund's suggestions for the most part. I'd also take out Billy Budd, Flaubert, and Ibsen, and I'd halve the amount of time spent reading the Founding Fathers and Tocqueville.
August 26 at 4:21pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley Or, I should say, an example of a metaphor
August 26 at 4:21pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, Herr Langley, the predication is carried across. Learn your grammar. The predicate attribute of the implied major is carried across to the metaphor, which leads to a reasonable act of the imagination.
August 26 at 4:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am starting to think its really maybe not PB's fault. He is so thoroughly confused. I was joking above but his inability to make distinctions reveals very fundamental confusion.
August 26 at 4:22pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley And metaphor doesn't involve syllogism but it can involve analogy.
August 26 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ha! Just kidding. I was just seeing if you were awake. The subject of the major premise is carried into the position of the predicate of the metaphor, the minor premise, to carry the predicate in the major premise, across to the reasonable act of the imagination.
Now could you please write that on the board 50 times.
August 26 at 4:27pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Hence, the carrying across. Just like the middle term carries across knowledge from better known to newly known.
August 26 at 4:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion."
August 26 at 4:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley As Aristotle says, what metaphor signifies directly is something about the imposition of names. It might use a four-term analogy to justify that imposition, but a four-term analogy isn't a syllogism.
August 26 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Beatrice is a rose is also the form of a minor premise with an implied major. Same for the enthymeme. Both are reasonable appeals, going from better known to newly known, carrying over through a middle, which is the carrying over part.
August 26 at 4:34pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure If "Beatrice is a rose" is the metaphor, Herr Langley, then what can we conclude from this metaphor?
August 26 at 4:36pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure The question, Ed.
August 26 at 4:37pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Can we conclude that Beatrice has thorns, and leaves?
August 26 at 4:38pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Does Beatrice have thorns, Mr. Langley?
August 26 at 4:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger perhaps you have misunderstood. Could pb's "arguments" be metaphors? . . . He doesn't know what syllogism is or metaphor: this is a breakthrough. But can he be helped? We may be dealing with Meno. I need to reread that dialogue
August 26 at 4:40pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Or is there something else implied in a kind of syllogism?
August 26 at 4:42pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Is this implication not an appeal to the imagination?
August 26 at 4:43pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Does it not lead to something new, using the same form as a syllogism and an enthymeme?
August 26 at 4:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maps lead to something new. Ergo, maps are syllogisms
August 26 at 4:46pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke Do syllogisms and enthymemes have the same form?
August 26 at 4:47pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke and if they do, then what is there distinction?
August 26 at 4:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Moreover, pb is proof that Faith requires reason. Lacking it, the fullness of the Faith is inaccessable to him.
August 26 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke Sorry, *their
August 26 at 4:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia enthymeme is probable sometimes, sometimes it elides one of the premises. It is proper to rhetoric whereas true (deductive) syllogism is proper to logic
August 26 at 4:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am afraid The Never Ending Thread has entered another Dark Age.
August 26 at 4:50pm · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure They do, Philip, the enthymeme has an implied major premise. It leads to a reasonable act of the will toward the good.
All good men desire good. (Implied maxim)
Milk is good for you. (Enthymeme)
August 26 at 4:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger adding enthymeme can only cause more confusion. He has NO idea what syllogism is.
August 26 at 4:51pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke But they have the same form, or no?
August 26 at 4:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, Phillip, Michael and Edward, you guys can be the Irish monks that preserve culture and learning until we can come to a more civilized period.
August 26 at 4:51pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Your welcome.
August 26 at 4:51pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Maps don't have a middle term, Michael. Metaphors and enthymemes do.
August 26 at 4:51pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Langley caused this Dark Age by denying the obvious.
August 26 at 4:53pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, they do have the same form. The difference is that the major premise is implied. One premise will get you nowhere.
August 26 at 4:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger FYI Philip. PB and I cant see each other's posts. I was excommunicated by him (blocked) before TNET era.
August 26 at 4:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What if you're wrong?
August 26 at 4:56pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure They have the same form. All three depend on two premises and a middle term. The form carries over something new.
The form is the same. The content is different. The content of the entymeme is moral. The content of the metaphor is imaginary.
August 26 at 4:57pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I thought aristotle says that enthymeme is an argument based signs and his example from the prior analytics is something like you can guess that a philosophers are wise from the fact that socrates was both. it might also be true that one is implied, and typically is which is why in the rhetoric aristotle gives that as a description of the enthymeme.
August 26 at 5:02pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I would submit to the jury, that if the metaphor did not take the same form as a syllogism, then "Beatrice is a rose" is nothing more than a false premise. For clearly, Beatrice is not a rose.
HATH BEATRICE THORN? HATH HER LEAFETH?!!
August 26 at 5:06pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke his other example from the prior analytics is something about lactating mammals being pregnant, which doesn't sound like a "moral" example very much. I think there's often confusion about this because enthymeme is so typical in rhetoric one tends to forget it in other places.
August 26 at 5:07pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Nay!!! Beatrice hath no thorn!
Hence, I would submit, the metaphor is more than a single premise, a false claim. No, there is an implied premise, which is the form of syllogism.
August 26 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Beatrice is a rose" hath not the form of a syllogism.
August 26 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke two premises do not, of themselves, guarantee that you have a syllogism. besides, even if there is an implied premise, it is outside of the metaphor, no?
August 26 at 5:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia unless you mean:
Beatrice is a pretty thing
all pretty things are roses
therefore, Beatrice is a rose
August 26 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Plus it is very hidden. Even in political speech. The implied major premise is often the content of much of the speech, the kairos, as it were, the forming the connection with the audience. The enthymeme is the punch line. Having connected with the multitude, you then move them where you want them to go. But it only really works when its moral, or when all good men lose their voices.
August 26 at 5:15pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke and in metaphors, which are improper speech, don't you have to take into account the meaning of the speaker which custom or context supply?
August 26 at 5:16pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke have you checked out the formal treatment of enthymeme in the prior analytics?
August 26 at 5:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger an observation: the perplexities in this debatable debate on metaphors is analogous the "debate" on fundamentals of theology.
August 26 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure St. Augustine is all enthymeme.
August 26 at 5:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "St. Augustine is all enthymeme" is a metaphor
August 26 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Reagan was the only President in modern times who used enthymeme and metaphor perfectly.
August 26 at 5:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger mb if you were more explicit he might get it: viz. syllogisms require 3 propositions and metaphor needs 2 terms only.
August 26 at 5:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why bother?
August 26 at 5:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia he'll just assert the same thing over and over
August 26 at 5:25pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke not if by enthymeme you mean "argument proceeding from signs or likelihoods" as aristotle does. Signs and likelihoods do not attain perfect universality which is why enthymemes are not syllogisms. the dici de omni and dici de nullo do not apply to enthymemes, but these are the principes of the syllogism.
August 26 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure At TAC, when they read Augustine, they try to extract the content and make syllogisms out of it, because they wouldn't know how to spot a rhetorical appeal if it kicked them in the knee.
August 26 at 5:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which in no way responds to the objection Philip just raised, but resorts to (continual) name-calling
August 26 at 5:29pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke rhetorical appeal has a time and a place to take the forefront. actually, though, isn't rhetoric present in all the sciences to some extent because ethics is a universal knowledge in the sense that everything we do (including knowing) has a bearing on our happiness. thoughts anyone?
August 26 at 5:32pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke also, it is extremely unfair to say nobody at TAC is moved by the rhetoric of
August 26 at 5:34pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Augustine. many of us have been profoundly moved by his writings.
August 26 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Matthew Reiser You people are STILL here? I am beginning to wonder when this thread will officially become the walking undead and start demanding BRAAAAINS
August 26 at 5:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i am not clear what you were asking above, Philip. The need for rhetoric depends on the audience entirely. If the listener cannot or wont follow syllogistic argument, it should be used. Of course poetry is often rhetorical. Though here's a question: is Aquinas' poetry rhetorical?
August 26 at 5:43pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke well, I guess I was thinking about the emotional and authoritative means of persuasion--their presence everywhere is pretty suprising, though true. Also, I wouldn't identify enthymeme and rhetoric. Enthymeme is use all over the strictly philosophical disciplines as, for example, when aristotle confirms the immateriality of the soul by its increase in strength after knowing a very intelligible object.
August 26 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke that fact is true of imagination and memory too, so the conclusion does not follow of necessity. enthymeme tends to get classed as solely rhetorical, I think, because the contingent subject matter of politics lends itself to this weaker form of argument; this and the argument called "example"
August 26 at 5:51pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke what I'm trying to say is that it seems impossible to me for a politician, making a speech about what to do in the future, to use a syllogism because the subject matter lacks the necessity for that kind of argument. it is not a matter of the attention span of the audience. that is the reason for the shortening of the enthymeme, not for its use in the first place.
August 26 at 5:54pm · Like · 4
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Philip D. Knuffke again, I think there is a common misconception about what the enthymeme is, and how it is related to syllogism. but I would point to the formal treatment of argument in the prior analytics as the key place to look and understand the other more particular texts under its universal light.
August 26 at 5:56pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke what happened to Mr. Bonaventure?
August 26 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia flew away
August 26 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Philip, i agree with what you say except maybe about examples. As described in the rhetoric, they are more improbable than probable. But i still don't understand your initial question.
August 26 at 6:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To be precise: they are often false, seldom probable.
August 26 at 6:13pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke you argue by example when you recommend a restaurant that you ate at last thursday. it was good for me, so it'll probably be good for you too.
August 26 at 6:16pm · Edited · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke do we not use rhetoric even in, say metaphysics, which is a purely speculative science? and if so, what justifies this? I proposed an answer, but I haven't run it by any wise men yet for confirmation, so I figured I should take the opportunity while you guys are all here and talking about more or less related stuff.
August 26 at 6:19pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger regarding speaches on future actions, that is true and one cause for democracies trending toward tyranny. (The need for enthymeme, philip)
August 26 at 6:20pm · Edited · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke what is true?
August 26 at 6:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But the examples of example in the rhetoric are far more tenuous.
August 26 at 6:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I can't keep up!
August 26 at 6:24pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke what do you mean, my friend?
August 26 at 6:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger regarding enthymeme in metaphysics, does Aquinus use it?
August 26 at 6:26pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke there is nothing impossible about it, though
August 26 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Do I read 2k comments and catch up because Philip D. Knuffke has joined the conversation?
August 26 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke i don't recall off the top of my head, what did you have in mind.
August 26 at 6:28pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke haha, just get your feet wet with the last coulple hundred and hop in. I actually never even saw the slideshow. mea culpa.
August 26 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger eg. Aesop's fables
August 26 at 6:30pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke could you say more what you're thinking?
August 26 at 6:31pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I agree Philip, the enthymeme needs to be cross-references with the treatise on valid and invalid syllogisms in the Analytics, for immoral persuasion relies on a flawed implied premise, as an imperfect syllogism relies on a flawed explicit premise.
But the book of Rhetoric introduces the enthymeme by name as a kind of truncated syllogism, the major premise of which is implied.
Then something very fantastical happens. In On the Motion of Animals, or in the book which goes by that name, the enthymeme is described in a metaphor of the joint in the leg of an animal: the implied major is like the lower part of the limb, the minor explicit term is like the upper part of the limb, and when the two terms align around the middle joint, the leg straightens out, causing the animal to spring. The conclusion is the act. The implied major sits firm on an immovable rock, which is an ethical edifice, or an uncaused cause.
August 26 at 6:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hahahahaha
rich. off to Mass
August 26 at 6:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Maxims, anecdotes, Aesop's fables used as examples from which to derive decisions for future action.
August 26 at 6:40pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure We use rhetoric, metaphor and logic altogether in metaphysics. We must, because man knows with his soul, which is all of reason, will and imagination together. The sapiential philosophies use all three. In fides et ratio, and lumen fidei, for instance, when writing in the form of a sapiential philosophy, we see the pope write in enthymeme, metaphor and syllogism all at the same time.
I would be happy to send you a few examples in a bit. We went over this a bit in a previous discussion with Ferrier.
August 26 at 6:40pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I don't understand. Does the holy father make one argument to be an enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all at the same time?
August 26 at 6:42pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke As to your earlier comment, I still maintain that you are giving a typical characteristic of an enthymeme as a definition of it. the text from the parts of animals is an illustration of that typical attribute.
August 26 at 6:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Philip are you talking to pb? I guess i will restate my question to your question: do you think Aquinus uses rhetoric in metaphysics? I have certainly seen Aristotle use rhetoric in his work but have not read his meta. in a long time.
August 26 at 6:48pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke what about this: do you think that enthymeme is a species of syllogism? what are all the species of syllogism? if it isn't a species, why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the genus? and if it is a species, why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all together?
August 26 at 6:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i cant see anything pb writes. (I assume that is why michael was laughing.)
August 26 at 6:50pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Ruplinger: yes I was. and yes, probably. why can't you see Mr. Bonaventure?
August 26 at 6:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger HE BLOCKED ME.
August 26 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke I take it this conversation was rather heated in the distant past.
August 26 at 6:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Its the only reason i joined the thread. I saw TAC alum beating up an imaginary person.
August 26 at 6:55pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke you are a TAC alumnus?
August 26 at 6:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict 3494
August 26 at 6:57pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger he blocked me before. I am anathema to pope pb, i presume, because i compared the CCC to the catechism of Trent on another thread.
August 26 at 6:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The schism rocked the facebook world
August 26 at 6:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i am not TAC. Which adds to the irony. And i had come to his defence.
August 26 at 6:59pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke well, back to our calm and dispassionate discussion: I was thinking that were you or I to write a paper on a metaphysical topic, we would for sure pay attention to rhetorical details. why is that? I suggested that it was because our will and emotions can help or hinder our intellectual endeavors, so we must take that aspect of the reader into account.
August 26 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger do you think Thomas did this?
August 26 at 7:08pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke aslo, maybe we could say that rhetoric moves the will (and emotions) of the audience, but through the mediation of the imagination; hence good writing makes parallel scentence structure for parallel ideas and uses repetition and so on. well, the intellect is also moved by the imagination in a certain way, so to the extent that it is, the way you order your imaginings matters. but this managed by rhetoric. therfore.
August 26 at 7:08pm · Like
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Claire Keeler No more posting the number of comments AS a comment! It's cheating!
August 26 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke he will often pull this trick. he'll support the major premise of an article's main syllogism above it, and he'll support the minor premise of an article's main syllogism below it, so that the two premises of the main syllogism are placed right next to each other at the center of the corpus--a rhetorical stroke of genius.
August 26 at 7:10pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I'm talking about St. Thomas.
August 26 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Pope in his encyclical uses the metaphor, the enthymeme and the syllogism all at the same time, in the same sentence and paragraph. Then he uses the conclusion thereof and does it again, introducing established principles of sacred theology, to shed new light of Faith.
August 26 at 7:12pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke is the same argument all three at once, Mr. Bonaventure?
August 26 at 7:12pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, rhetoric moves through the heart. Poetry/metaphor through the imagination; logic through reason. But they all have the same form.
August 26 at 7:14pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, the same is all three at once. It is an appeal to the whole of the person.
August 26 at 7:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Is he just making it easier to follow the argument, do you think?
August 26 at 7:16pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke that seems impossible to me. but you never answered my series of questions above. what is your solution to the difficulties?
August 26 at 7:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't see the difficulty. I only see that he orders the argument in such away as to make it most easily grasped by the reader. What am I missing?
August 26 at 7:18pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke once you solve those, I would like to see your analysis of the proposed argument which is at once a metaphor, a syllogism, and an enthymeme. I think it is possible to appeal to the whole person, by the way, without this three arguments in one business.
August 26 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You are talking to PB again, aren't you?
August 26 at 7:18pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Ruplinger: which is the art that teaches the rules of how todo that if not rhetoric?
August 26 at 7:19pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke and yes, to Mr. Bonaventure.
August 26 at 7:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree. But that is not employment of ethos, pathos, or ethymeme. Certainly, I agree that any writer, even the best, will take into consideration the reader or audience. Thus, it is true that the art of rhetoric should be employed in all writing or speaking (the contrary of which I stated above).
August 26 at 7:21pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Bonaventure: you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to imagination, rhetoric to heart, and logic to reason. But there are a number of difficulties in this. First, the soul of a rhetorical argument, says aristotle, is the logos, the appeal to reason, and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric. Further, rhetoric moves the imagination too, as for example the parallel structures, groupings of threes, etc. these move and delight our imaginations first, and through our imaginations move our wills and emotions. Also, your division is unclear because, logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from St. Thomas's proemium to the posterior analytics. Again, if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry with, isn't heart the natural choice? tragedy, for example, is defined by the emotions of pity and fear; the heart enters the very definitions of the species of poetry.
August 26 at 7:27pm · Edited · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Ruplinger: the structure, cadence, etc. of speech moves us for sure; though you've got a great point. it doesn't fit well into any of the traditional means of persuasion. I wonder where aristotle put these considerations.
August 26 at 7:31pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Caughron Rhetoric is the "art of persuasion according to the available means" (Aristotle, de rhetorica). People are persuaded in three ways: by an appeal to the reason (via logic, and the enthymeme has been called the "rhetorical syllogism), the emotions (including anger, pity, etc.), and "ethos" (trust in the speaker's good will, good sense, and good character). Rhetoric is not philosophy, but the good rhetorician knows his philosophy. Rhetoric is the great civic art. And while rhetoric may involve poetry, and poetry may be rhetorical, they are too different things. The aim of poetry is beauty; the aim of rhetoric is persuasion. The aim of logic is demonstration.
August 26 at 7:32pm · Like
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Megan Caughron That's not me, btw. That's just plain ol' Rhet 101. I think people are making things way harder and more complicated than they are, or need to be.
August 26 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But the aim of poetry is various and employs more or less rhetoric both as to the aim, and depending what kind it is (such as a Platonic dialogue or a tragedy or comedy).
August 26 at 7:34pm · Like
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Megan Caughron The aim of poetry as such as beauty. When it's aim is to persuade, it becomes rhetoric. Poetic rhetoric, but rhetoric.
August 26 at 7:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Caughron And let's be clear: I mean rhetoric as in the whole shebang discipline. Not just "schemes and tropes." Just clarifying. (That was a Middle Ages / Renaissance corruption.)
August 26 at 7:36pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Over and out.
August 26 at 7:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Some poetry is praise, other poetry can be declamation (satire). It is not all one thing. What is the end of tragedy? (And the Middle ages and Renaissance thought it was much more than that -- it is more of late 19th century corruption).
August 26 at 7:36pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Well, Mr. Bonaventure I will wait for your answers to my questions. Please don't leave me hanging.
August 26 at 7:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Megan, does Plato employ rhetoric in his dialogues which are philosophical but at the same time unmetered poetry of a kind (which seems to fall under Aristotle's divisions: remember too, he says poetry employs rhetoric)?
August 26 at 7:41pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure And the three cannot be separated; they go together because the soul is one. And the good, true and beautiful can only be fully attained in unity, and each appeals to these parts of the soul. Logic syllogism reason true. Poetry metaphor imagination beauty. Rhetoric enthymeme will good. They all have the same form. Different matter.
There is such as think as a poetic or rhetorical demonstration.
August 26 at 7:44pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke this is truly astonishing to me. I have never heard anyone else claim this. Are there any prominent thinkers such as St. Thomas or Aristotle who think this is the case? or do they in fact hold otherwise? besides, you are still refusing to answer my questions.
August 26 at 7:48pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Honestly Megan Caughron, have you studied Rhetoric at more than the freshman level of college?
August 26 at 7:49pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke i am beginning to suspect that you can't...
August 26 at 7:49pm · Unlike · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry, what was your question, Phillip. I have been coming and going?
August 26 at 7:50pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke there was a list of them. I can copy and paste them if you want, or you could just read back up a few comments. they were about the relation of enthymeme to syllogism.
August 26 at 7:52pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke here you go: what about this: what are all the species of syllogism? do you think that enthymeme is one of the species of syllogism? if it isn't a species, why do you include it syllogism in the definition as the genus? and if it is a species, why do you divide the species against the genus when you listed enthymeme, syllogism, and metaphor all together? you would never make a list of isosceles, equilateral, scalene, and triangle!
August 26 at 7:55pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke and here are the objections to the proposed division of metaphor, enthymeme, and syllogism and the corresponding powers of the soul: you seem intent on the correspondence of metaphor to imagination, rhetoric to heart, and logic to reason. But there are a number of difficulties in this. First, the soul of a rhetorical argument, says aristotle, is the logos, the appeal to reason, and the pathos and the ethos are subservient to this in good rhetoric and override it in bad rhetoric. Further, rhetoric moves the imagination too, as for example the parallel structures, groupings of threes, etc. these move and delight our imaginations first, and through our imaginations move our wills and emotions. Also, your division is unclear because, logic includes rhetoric and poetry as is clear from St. Thomas's proemium to the posterior analytics. Again, if we were to choose between imagination and heart to pair poetry with, isn't heart the natural choice? tragedy, for example, is defined by the emotions of pity and fear; the heart enters the very definitions of the species of poetry.
August 26 at 7:57pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Plato is a funny case. He is a philosopher who uses rhetoric and is rendered poetically (in form). But saying we "use rhetoric" when we communicate is not a big deal. Saying a poet "uses rhetoric" is like saying a dancer "uses work." Incidentally, the reason it's important to separate rhet from philosophy is because rhet conceives language as power. Severing language from truth would be the risk (hence Plato's concern about rhetoric, and the modern fascination with it). Side-note: poetry used as rhetoric has a name, and that name is propaganda.
August 26 at 8:09pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Im just throwing this out there in case someone finds it clarifying. If you dont....*airy wave of hand*.
August 26 at 8:13pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Megan, I apologize for the lack of manners from Mr. Bonaventure.
August 26 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Aw thanks, Mr Knuffke! Nice of you to say thay.
August 26 at 8:16pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Logos is the first form of rhetoric which links it to logic and syllogism. By definition, it is the art of getting someone to DO something, so its aim is the will/heart. Logos informs the art with morality and reasonability.
Poetry leads to beauty, as Megan points out, the aim of poetry is the beautiful. The form of poetry is the metaphor, which is informed by the Logos again, in the form of syllogism. For metaphor requires an implied premise as well as the metaphor itself.
Beauty is first an appeal to the imagination. Beauty becomes more than a gazing when it is joined with truth and goodness. Unless this happens, beauty turns ugly.
These three things go together. If they fall apart, the good and true become ugly. Having the same form keeps them together.
Logos is the first form of all three.
Plato is a good example, as Megan points out. They all go together, so people mistake him sometimes for a poet, sometimes for a philosopher.
August 26 at 8:21pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke ok, since you deal with rhetoric first, would you mind answering my questions about enthymeme and syllogism? Everyone agrees that enthymeme is present in rhetoric, but i think the claim that syllogism is there is controversial.
August 26 at 8:27pm · Edited · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke then we can have a conversation about how metaphors are arguments and whether or not they also are syllogisms or imply syllogisms. I think that is even more controversial.
August 26 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke what if we begin with this question: you say an enthymeme is a syllogism with a premise implied--well, are you saying that the enthymeme is a kind of syllogism, a species of syllogism? If so, would you mind listing all of them and we can examine by what they are distinguished the one from the other. This would, I think, clarify our discussion immensely. As Plato teaches us in the Protagoras: no more long speeches, just dialectical questioning and answering.
August 26 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Firstly, Aristotle states that enthymeme is a kind of syllogism. Langley agrees. Aristotle describes it is a truncated syllogism with an implied premise.
OK so far?
August 26 at 8:42pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke well, where does he say that?
August 26 at 8:42pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I wonder if it might be best to say that syllogism there is meant equivocally, meaning "argument proceeding from general truths" or something like that. In this case, though, the truths aren't completely universal--they're signs and likelihoods as is taught in the formal treatise on arguments, the prior analytics. what say you, reasonable?
August 26 at 8:44pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Megan, i am not going to fight you, except one thing. For Aristotle, rhetoric includes more than you admit. Preaching is a part of the art of rhetoric. Persuation is not merely aimless power. It includes convincing others of truth and convicting them of sin orally or by writing.
August 26 at 8:45pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Rhetoric Bk. II.
Well, argument proceeding from general truths is dialectic. This is what Aristotle's Topics is about. This is the form that Thomas uses in the Summa. This relies on the form of logical syllogism. He also incorporates dogma.
Rhetoric is the counterpart to this. If all good men desire good things, and milk is good for you, then it is reasonable to drink milk.
The enthymeme is Milk is good for you.
It is reasonable because it is in the form of logos. It is a kind of syllogism. Same form as a logical syllogism, different matter. Different matter because deals with those political things other than philosophy and revelation that cannot be demonstrated with certainty, but cleaved to because they are good and desirable, or it can be used to persuade someone to do something good that is in keeping with a golden rule.
August 26 at 8:55pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Bonaventure, what if I proceed more directly agianst your position like this: the fact that you state in spoken words the full two premises of an argument is utterly accidental to the reasoning that goes on in your mind, and therefore that fact cannot be a specific difference of any species of syllogism. I tried to give an account of what syllogism might mean there, but it seems absurd to say that it means the same as when said of, say, the demonstrative syllogism.
August 26 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke Even more fundamentally, the the two axioms, if you will, of the third act of reason, which are the foundation of the syllogism (the dici de omni and dici de nullo) cannot apply to the contingent truths about which rhetoric deals. You simply cannot make those kinds of statements about human behavior. Try to make a syllogism the conclusion of which is the US should go to war.
August 26 at 9:02pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Because for you to have certain knowledge, where the conclusion is absolutely certain, you need two explicit premises and a middle term.
August 26 at 9:03pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Just as if you want to jump from A to B, you need a limb with two parts and a joint in it.
August 26 at 9:04pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I maintain that the certitude of the conclusion is caused by two CERTAIN premises which it so happens usually must be stated, though not always. Anyone with experience of Euclid's Elements has made not only syllogisms, but demonstrative syllogisms so fast that they could not state in words at the pace with which their minds were drawing necessary conclusions.
August 26 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure You need two, in other words, so that you know the cause on which the new knowledge depends. The conclusion is the new knowledge. It is derived from the major premise through a middle term to the minor premise. Metaphor and syllogism do the same thing, only premises are implied.
August 26 at 9:12pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke have you studied the Elements of Euclid?
August 26 at 9:13pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke you always need to premises, the question is whether you need to explicitly state them out loud, no?
August 26 at 9:14pm · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, I have seen these fast thinkers. I myself was not one of them.
August 26 at 9:23pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke I'd like to correct something I said a bit ago. It isn't the certitude of the premises that cause an argument to be a syllogism, it is the universality of one of them, that is the real cause for the conclusion following of necessity. Whether or not the conclusion is itself necessarily true depends on the certitude of the premises. The enthymeme proceeds from premises that are general but not universal, and therefore the conclusion does not follow of necessity. The dialectical syllogism proceeds from universal truths but only probable ones, so the conlusion necessarily follows, but is only probable or likely. The demonstrtative syllogism proceeds from universal certain truths so its conclusion necessarily follows and is necessarily true. What do you think of my division?
August 26 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke We can continue this later--I need to sleep. Good night!
August 26 at 9:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia aah you let him off the hook
August 26 at 9:30pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, and I think that's right. I think for scientific knowledge, you just need to see two premises and a middle and a conclusion in your mind. You do not need to speak it, unless you are demonstrating a scientific proof to another.
The unstated premise of the enthymeme is not known to be universally true. It is just a maxim that is politically accepted by a majority. You do not want to say it as a premise, because you are not trying to get someone to agree that something is universally true, you are just trying to move someone to do something. Instead of stating a major premise, you want to build ethos.
With a metaphor, you definitely do not want to state the major premise, because it is not an appeal to the real but the imaginary through an analogy of inverse predication.
August 26 at 9:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^so is this a complete waffle from the before position?^
August 26 at 9:44pm · Like
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Megan Caughron John Ruplinger - you are entirely right, and I don't know what I said to make you think I would disagree w that statement. Rhetoric is powerful and practical, and can be used for evil and should be used for good. Sigh. I thought that was obvious....
August 26 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Wow...I just have one observation, per Aquinas. We can divide logic into two parts, one reason insofar as it is an act of understanding, and this is twofold. One is the act of simple apprehension, which is dealt with in the Predicaments (Categories). The other is that of judgment, which is treated in Peri Hermenias (de Interpretatione)
The other part is reason insofar as it proceeds from one thing to another, and this can be divided into three. The first is when reason proceeds, with logical necessity, to new truth with certitude, and this is called judicative or analytical logic. And this is divided into two, one is formal logic, i.e. the syllogism which is dealt with in the Prior analytics. The other is material logic, which deals with the soundness of premises, and this in the Posterior Analytics.
Secondly, reason may be led to an affirmation by probability, and this is "inventive logic" which can be divided into three parts. Faith and opinion is when reason is totally inclined to one part of a contradiction, although "with fear of the other" (formidine alterius), and this is treated by the Topics.
Secondly, there is suspicion when reason is inclined to one side, but not totally. And this is treated by the Rhetoric.
In estimation the mind is inclined to some part of a contradiction because of some beautiful aspect or representation, and the Poetics treat of this.
Lastly reason may be led to error, and this is treated in the Sophistical Refutations.
The difference between poetry and rhetoric is this, rhetoric still involves a form of illative reasoning, albeit incomplete, but poetry does not elucidate an argument formally, but rather gives an inclination through attraction, by its beauty.
You are all very welcome (I recently reread Aquinas' commentaries on the Peri hermenias and Posterior analytics)
August 26 at 10:03pm · Edited · Like · 7
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JA Escalante Joshua for Pope
August 26 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia however, appeal to authority is the weakest form of argument, according to Boethius....
August 26 at 9:57pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Did anyone mention surpassing 3500? I'm really grateful this conversation is still going strong. I feel like someone should be assigning readings to accompany the Neverending seminar.
August 26 at 9:58pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Also, for the Orator, it is often inopportune to state a major premise. The threat of an enemy can sometimes not be stated to a civilised audience. It is however imperative that majority support be formed. So a variety of means may be employed. One may persuaded to vote for a leader because he sees it as a way out of economic hardship, but the hidden premise may be that a change of party is needed for national security.
August 26 at 10:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll make the case for taking out some philosophy from Senior seminar. Hegel. The philosophy of history sets itself up nicely for Feuerbach and thence Marx, but Phenomenology of Spirit is too dense to be treated in such a short time.
August 26 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe i think you're right Michael Beitia - we should probably read Hegel more slowly - as an extra 2 credit hour course....
August 26 at 10:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia No, just take out Phenomenology of Spirit and replace it with Heidegger later on. It's a simple fix
August 26 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (still trying to stuff "What is Metaphysics" in)
August 26 at 10:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Or perhaps I should respond to Scottrine:
voting is for chumps
August 26 at 10:09pm · Like
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Max Summe How do you understand anything after Hegel without reading Hegel? I think also more waffles should be added to the curriculum.
August 26 at 10:10pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia did they still have those belgian waffle makers on Sundays when you went there?
August 26 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Hegel was amazing. What are you talking about?
August 26 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I did my thesis on Hegel
August 26 at 10:11pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Did you say it should be removed or did I miss something?
August 26 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just Phenomenology of Spirit, not Philosophy of History
August 26 at 10:12pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Also yes there were waffles.
August 26 at 10:12pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele we didn't have any belgian waffle makers tho... just the regular ones
August 26 at 10:12pm · Like
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Nina Rachele i think?
August 26 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I loved those do it yourself waffle things..... if you could fight through the tutor's children
August 26 at 10:13pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell I do think we need to take the Phenomenology of Spirit out, unless we're going to spend 8 weeks on it. People make the mistake of thinking that because it's one of his earliest works that it's, if not easy, at least more approachable than the Encyclopedia or the Science of Logic. That seems false to me.
August 26 at 10:13pm · Like · 4
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Nina Rachele 730 mass. problem solved. plus, you have all day to study and can do a full hour of adoration too.
August 26 at 10:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I used to go to the Indult at 1:30 in Ventura....
August 26 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele 730 was trid my last year there.
August 26 at 10:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia only once a month while I was there
August 26 at 10:15pm · Like
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JA Escalante Hegel's Phil of Right should be read. TAC cant handle Phenom of Spirit
August 26 at 10:15pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia But, on topic, Daniel, that's why I maintain keeping philosophy of history. It is easier, and leads well into Feuerbach and Marx
August 26 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele the morning mass switched to always trid now...
August 26 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yeeessssss JAson
August 26 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so I heard, Nina
August 26 at 10:16pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I would like to see a bit of the history of philosophy, too, if you ask me: but I think that would be contrary to TAC, to read Hegel, e.g., on Aristotle's Metaphysics. Cool, but contrary.
August 26 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I didn't write my thesis on Hegel, but some years ago I did make a Hegelian facebook album, illustrated with TACers and unicycles.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=8717309355&set=a.8717104355.14543.506859355&type=3&theater
Roy and Pat Ride a Unicycle
One self-consciousness realizes the other self-consciousness has a unicycle...
Self-consciousness has before it another self-consciousness; it has come outside itself. This has a double significance. First it has lost its own self, since it finds itself as an other being; secondly, it has thereby sublated that other, for it does not regard the other as essentially real, but sees its own self in the other.
It will, in the first place, present the aspect of the disparity of the two, or the break-up of the middle term into the extremes, which, qua extremes, are opposed to one another, and of which one is merely recognized, while the other only recognizes.
With commentary by Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
By: Catherine Ryland
August 26 at 10:20pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia It's hard because Metaphysics is in senior philosophy, so one would have to line it up later in the year, but that's when seminar FINALLY makes it toward the 20th century
August 26 at 10:20pm · Like
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Max Summe We should probably just create a new school - maybe a 12 year program?
August 26 at 10:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia hey - just trying to tie up loose Petersonian threads
August 26 at 10:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Society on an upward corkscrew path, thesis-antithesis- synthesis, and zeitgeist. And self-actualizing world spirit. Thus my comprehension of Hegel. .... More time was probably warranted. Heh.
August 26 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you forgot the world spirit realizing itself in freedom (if we want sound bites)
August 26 at 10:23pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No she said that. Can't you read, Beetia?
August 26 at 10:23pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron I'm indifferent about the waffles. But I get these weird craving for the tamales they used to serve, of ALL things - !
August 26 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (Sorry...)
August 26 at 10:23pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland They never had tamales when we were there. Or ostrich.
August 26 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "This truth of necessity, therefore, is Freedom: and the truth of substance is the Notion - an independence which, though self-repulsive into distinct independent elements, yet in that repulsion is self-identical, and in the movement of reciprocity still at home and conversant only with itself"
Hegel - Logic 158
August 26 at 10:25pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Of us, only the class of '02 remembers the ostrich I think.
August 26 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh, Matthew J. Peterson and I have a story about ostrich
August 26 at 10:26pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell In the early 90's, there used to be a Sunday-night 'mystery meat' which we took to calling goat-stag.
August 26 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Catherine Ryland Do tell.
August 26 at 10:26pm · Like
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Erin Turrentine '03 here. Ostrich was the mystery meat of our freshman year.
August 26 at 10:26pm · Like · 6
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Erin Turrentine Or was it the "chicken"?
August 26 at 10:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'll leave it to him. He was the one with the keys to the kitchen over Christmas break....
August 26 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Oh yes, I mean '03.
August 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Erin and I overlap
August 26 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I wasn't there for the '02 class.
August 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Erin Turrentine Barely.
August 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Another reason rhetoricians do not reveal a major premise is because an audience is not moved to the good all at once, but gradually. Whereas scientific knowledge is grasped all at once, a speaker may lead an audience away from violence by telling them about beekeeping and the warring bees, as Virgil does in Georgics IV.
August 26 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa Class of '09 here. We dubbed one of the meals "highlighter chicken"... anyone else remember that?
August 26 at 10:28pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland No, but I may have been gone.
August 26 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So Peregott.... we can't study theology, or poetics (or literature) or philosophy..... so how'd we screw up math?
August 26 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I once did a though experiment about the ideal program....even packed more tightly than TAC, it took 10 years, and there was still stuff I wanted to add.
Ostrich meat is good btw.
August 26 at 10:33pm · Unlike · 6
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Nick Ruedig I remember highlighter chicken! (that stuff is scary, no joke)
August 26 at 10:34pm · Like
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Megan Caughron TAC is part bootcamp, part appetizer, part party
I vaguely remember the ostrich....
August 26 at 10:36pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma You always knew it was ostrich when we had "meat tacos" etc. Like we couldn't tell the difference between genus and species.
August 26 at 10:39pm · Like · 8
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Megan Caughron And speaking of rhetoric, how 'bout that "gourmet potluck." Heh.
August 26 at 10:40pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry, I did not mean to waffle.
August 26 at 10:42pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Too much math, makes B'tia a dull boy.
August 26 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Too little makes Peregrott incapable of rational discourse
August 26 at 10:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joshua Kenz: ostrich meat may be good once in a while. Not for three straight months....
August 26 at 10:45pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron Anybody remember the shark steaks?
August 26 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia not really
August 26 at 10:49pm · Like
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Megan Caughron I'd support Julia Child being added to the curriculum...
August 26 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Elizabeth David would be better I think
August 26 at 10:58pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Brillat-Savarin for real though
August 26 at 10:58pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Brillat-Savarin is actually read in a regular elective at a great booksy place I know of
August 26 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Rather than extend the program, the obvious next step to me is to make a grad school program. Although you'd have to stipulate living off campus so that the grad students didn't go insane.
August 26 at 11:13pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante yes!
August 26 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante also, have we broached the topic of electives?
August 26 at 11:14pm · Like
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Sean Robertson And from what I understand, the food is better than it used to be. But that didn't stop us from complaining about it every day.
August 26 at 11:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Elizabeth David would be a phenomenal substitute for Emma. Anything would really.
August 26 at 11:14pm · Like · 2
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Megan Caughron Just so long as there's a practicum involved.
August 26 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Electives?!? BURN HIM.
August 26 at 11:16pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante yep I went there
August 26 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell St. John's in Santa Fe has two grad programs, I think. One is great books West and one is great books east (including a language requirement).
August 26 at 11:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante so, how about electives? An idea whose time has come.
August 26 at 11:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante have I mentioned electives?
August 26 at 11:17pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ancient Greek and Hebrew are obvious candidates.
August 26 at 11:17pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I actually am against adding electives to the undergrad though.
August 26 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson One of the best things about the program was that you could talk to anyone about anything you were taking.
August 26 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Chinese philosophy
August 26 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Electives would work well in a graduate program though, I think.
August 26 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Megan has already voted for the Taoteching
August 26 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Popping in with a new look.
August 26 at 11:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley . . . and off to Rosary
August 26 at 11:20pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Um, the Analects and the Mencius... and at least one Chinese historical work.
August 26 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Hmm....I think I could structure my 10 years toward a PhD....4, 2 and 4... but what would be the degree? Philosophy?
August 26 at 11:20pm · Like
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Nina Rachele "Truth"
August 26 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley A Ph.D. in Liberal Arts . . . I'm sure that'd be employable
August 26 at 11:21pm · Like · 5
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Nina Rachele I was looking in the Notre Dame course catalog once and that was the name of one of the classes.
August 26 at 11:21pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I suggest starting a grad school or institute in Pittsburgh, and then we can steal Dr Wiker and Dr Sanford (who has Plato and Aristotle literally memorized in Greek, line by line) from Steubenville part time.
August 26 at 11:21pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele it was the definition of a facepalm
August 26 at 11:21pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, at CUA, a Ph.D. implies seven years of coursework + masters thesis/dissertation. So I doubt anyone would do a 10 year program.
August 26 at 11:22pm · Like
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JA Escalante but Nina don't you worry that the Chinese would just get a straw man reading for the sake of dismissing them
August 26 at 11:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley (seven years: 4 at TAC, 3 at CUA)
August 26 at 11:23pm · Like
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JA Escalante I mean, Hegel is European and he doesnt exactly get a fair reading usually there
August 26 at 11:23pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I doubt you could dismiss them once you actually read them
August 26 at 11:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley The "actually read" is often the problem.
August 26 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I have only just started really getting into it but I find Confucianism fascinating.
August 26 at 11:24pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Dual Ph.Ds...maybe a Ph.D and an STL.....
August 26 at 11:24pm · Like
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JA Escalante Mr Berquist once told me that he thought that Chinese philosophy ws sententious
August 26 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele well, yeah. it's written in a totally different style.
August 26 at 11:25pm · Like
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JA Escalante btw there is a wonderful book which reads Aristotle in comparison with Song Neo-Confucianism, called "Aristotle's Man" by SRL Clark. I highly recommend it
August 26 at 11:26pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele I think it might already be on my list, haha.
August 26 at 11:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I read Hegel...I remember the moment something clicked and understanding of him came....it shocked me and I threw the book against the wall, behind my couch....not what I understood, but only I was startled by the click of reason...wasn't expecting to understand a word...maybe that is part of the issue, he is sort of written off as unreadable before we read him...
August 26 at 11:26pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley That would probably be giving math and science short shrift.
How about a series of Ph.Ds
1. Math
2. Biology
3. Chemistry
4. Physics
5. Philosophy (i.e. Metaphysics)
6. Theology
IT could be called "The Eternal Student Program"
August 26 at 11:27pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele I am starting with this for context and ideas for further reading http://www.amazon.com/Sources-Chinese.../dp/0231109393
Sources of Chinese Tradition, Vol. 1
www.amazon.com
A collection of seminal primary readings on the social, intellectual, and religious traditions of China, Sources of Chinese Tradition, Volume 1 has been widely used and praised for almost forty years as an authoritative resource for scholars and students and as a thorough and engaging introductio...
August 26 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante when I first visited TAC aeons ago, the guy I stayed with had Hegel on his desk and I asked him about it (I was going to be impressed that TAC read Hegel) and he said, "oh no, dont worry, no one has to read him"
August 26 at 11:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley "The only program where you get the pleasure of writing six dissertations"
August 26 at 11:28pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I found Hegel sort of poetic rather than philosophical. But maybe that was my imagination.
August 26 at 11:28pm · Like
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JA Escalante Nina, I've been studying Chinese philosophy for about 15 years now (and learning classical Chinese) pm me if you need recommendations
August 26 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Oh wow that's awesome! I definitely have questions about where to get started with classical Chinese.
August 26 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, why don't we just start a Catholic commune while we are at it...come, educate, get degrees, and also, teach, and procreate, and go to Church...it would be like über TAC...after all 6 PhD's! Not enough...what about Canon law
August 26 at 11:30pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland Publish, Pontificate, Procreate or Perish.
August 26 at 11:34pm · Like · 8
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Joshua Kenz Wow, I just had a very frightening image.....
...anyhow, switching gears (post padding mostly), Mr. Escalante you and I should discuss this (unknown to me) delving into the East sometime....when I am not so broke I would end up stranded halfway on the way to Berkeley. I have been reading some of the Upanishads recently, thought of reading Gong Sun Long Zi, but didn't find it in English. It brings back certain pleasant memories with the pre-socratics, in many ways...only in fuller form....
August 26 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante anytime Joshua you know where I live
August 26 at 11:38pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Too much, makes B'tia an arrogant jerk.
August 26 at 11:38pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry, that's right. You were an arrogant jerk BEFORE you went to Thomas Aquinas College. The mathematical extremism just brought it all to completion.
August 26 at 11:45pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland http://www.theonion.com/.../tenth-circle-added-to.../...
Tenth Circle Added To Rapidly Growing Hell
www.theonion.com
CITY OF DIS, NETHER HELL—After years of construction, Corpadverticus, the new circle of Hell, finally opened its doors Monday.
August 26 at 11:45pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson "Rapidly Growing Hell" gets my vote for the alternate name of this thread.
August 26 at 11:47pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland I HAVE found most arrogant jerks that graduated TAC came that way.
August 26 at 11:48pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland Including me of course.
August 26 at 11:50pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
August 26 at 11:50pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell No scotch?
August 26 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Valeatis omnes. In crastinum.
August 26 at 11:52pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland All the best reaching 4000.
August 26 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Kevin Gallagher Hey guys cool conversation; what's it about?
August 26 at 11:54pm · Like
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Kevin Gallagher wow thomism and ancient chinese thought
August 26 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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Kevin Gallagher that, for the record, is my jam
August 26 at 11:55pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I am going for my evening constitutional....and by that I mean pray rosary, smoke cigarettes....very TAC of me
Oh good ole Fr. Buckley. Saw him this Sunday. He related a story of a visiting Jewish professor who was shocked by the students smoking. Fr. Buckley said "See, at your place you encourage fornication and prohibit smoking. We prohibit fornication and encourage smoking"
Sums its up very well....
August 26 at 11:56pm · Unlike · 6
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Kevin Gallagher Clearly not for me, then; as a good liberal I think smoking is gross
August 26 at 11:58pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Daniel P. O'Connell - all I can really contribute right now is a pic of my drink of choice each evening. No scotch tonight, but even if I was going to have some I wouldn't show it. I mean, three nights IN A ROW? Scandalous.
I should have posted the actual bowl of popcorn consumed last night with my kids.
August 26 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson TACers think fornication is gross. So there.
August 27 at 12:02am · Like
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Kevin Gallagher So might I think, if I were surrounded by TACers
August 27 at 12:03am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Oh yeah? Well...
...
...
[wearied whisper voice] sex. week. [/wearied whisper voice]
I got nothin.'
August 27 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante TAC women are among the loveliest in the world, Mr Gallagher
August 27 at 12:11am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante and that's a manifest fact
August 27 at 12:11am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante the dudes however...
August 27 at 12:11am · Edited · Like · 2
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Kevin Gallagher wait there are women at TAC?
August 27 at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson We didn't have sex weeks, my friend. We had smoking years.
August 27 at 12:12am · Like
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Kevin Gallagher Honestly my own dislike for Sex Week is far outweighed by my delight at watching everyone else wring their hands over it
August 27 at 12:12am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I feel so bad for the ladies of TAC. I always have. JA is right.
August 27 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I know - which is why I annoyingly bring it up. Because it is the asinine refutation of everything you say in the vulgar media driven world of shadoes in which we live.
August 27 at 12:13am · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante Beauties and the Beasts
August 27 at 12:13am · Like
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JA Escalante so what about electives?
August 27 at 12:13am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson OK, I have to leave this blasphemy and go finish syllabi for the YOUTH OF AMERICA. LEADERS who think GLOBALLY in an increasingly diverse world.
August 27 at 12:15am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley There was a rough patch, but it looks like we've recovered.
August 27 at 12:15am · Like · 8
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Edward Langley Kevin, thomism and ancient chinese thought is just the latest topic this thread has attempted to assassinate.
August 27 at 12:16am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I do want an intro syllabus for Thomism and chinese phil
August 27 at 12:16am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante ^pm me
August 27 at 12:17am · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Also, for the record, a while back, Megan Caughran claimed that rhetoric can be used for ill as effectively as it can for good. This is false. Aristotle in fact underscores the nexus between the Orator of good character, the good end desired, and effective persuasion.
I am not sure if TAC teaches that ill ends may be the result of good rhetoric, but I do know they do not really teach rhetoric beyond the freshman year.
August 27 at 12:17am · Like · 1
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Kevin Gallagher best done separately; the ancient stuff is too different from thomism, the lixue stuff too similar; either way it would confuse students
August 27 at 12:17am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante ^coward
August 27 at 12:17am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Earlier we circled each other on the relation of philosophy and sacred theology. Then there was some banter about literature and fixin' TAC's curriculum. Then we took a pass at rhetoric and poetics. Now we're up to Thomism and Chinese philosophy.
August 27 at 12:18am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I have a sneaking suspiscion that as time increases, the probability that any this thread will touch upon any topic approaches 1.
August 27 at 12:18am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I just ran across this gem that is relevant to an earlier time:
"Of course prophecy is a subject which is properly theological but in the measure that theology is an acquired supernatural habitus, it will principally call upon philosophy to make the truths which are beyond us more suited to us, more explicit." -- Msgr. Dionne, "The Necessity of Logic"
August 27 at 12:20am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha Who's winning?
August 27 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The people who stay away.
August 27 at 12:21am · Like · 9
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Kevin Gallagher Yale is
August 27 at 12:21am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante unlike Edward
August 27 at 12:21am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I've been here since the beginning, and read all 3,712 comments
August 27 at 12:22am · Like · 8
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Kevin Gallagher #winning
August 27 at 12:22am · Like
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JA Escalante it's just a street carnival, relax
August 27 at 12:23am · Like
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Edward Langley In fact Jason Van Boom tried to kill this thread about 3500 comments ago
August 27 at 12:23am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Oh look - I'm done with my syllabus
http://supreme.findlaw.com/documents/federalist/toc.html
FEDERALIST PAPERS - TABLE OF CONTENTS
supreme.findlaw.com
Find a local lawyer and free legal information at FindLaw.com
August 27 at 12:24am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson All I have to do is write THE WHOLE TIME at the top of the page and we're good.
August 27 at 12:25am · Like
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Sean Robertson The amazing thing is that we all, I assume, live within 3 time zones (Pater excepted?), and yet overnight this thread doesn't stop.
August 27 at 12:26am · Like
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JA Escalante Jason is in Estonia or somewhere like that
August 27 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau There are a few Europeans. Jason Van Boom -- yes, Estonia
August 27 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm really excited about this book, speaking of China:
http://supreme.findlaw.com/documents/federalist/toc.html
FEDERALIST PAPERS - TABLE OF CONTENTS
supreme.findlaw.com
Find a local lawyer and free legal information at FindLaw.com
August 27 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Peregrine Bonaventure's powers of endurance are phenomenal: he takes it all, ad hominems, insults, refutations without ever giving up a point.
August 27 at 12:28am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Seriously - this one:
http://mychinesebooks.com/frmo-yan-grenouilles-la.../...
Mo Yan, “Frogs” and birth control policy.
mychinesebooks.com
Mo Yan is probably the greatest living writer of Chinese nationality. His latest novel, "Frogs", is devoted to his aunt ,77 years old, who helped his birth - like 9983 other babies - and, half angel, half-demon, was also responsible for the local birth control policy. As such, she has performed thou…
August 27 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau And he must live in 3 time zones
August 27 at 12:28am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.spiegel.de/.../nobel-literature-prize-laureate...
Nobel Laureate Mo Yan: 'I Am Guilty' - SPIEGEL ONLINE
www.spiegel.de
For the first time since receiving the Nobel Prize in literature, controversial Chinese author Mo Yan has consented to an interview. Many have accused him of being too close to the regime. But he rejects the charge and finds sharp words for his detractors.
August 27 at 12:29am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Mo Yan! he's great
August 27 at 12:29am · Like
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JA Escalante Republic of Wine is fantastic
August 27 at 12:29am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure ANOTHER poignant error in the Charter of TAC is the definition of wisdom. The college defines metaphysics as qualified wisdom, and revelation as unqualified wisdom. This distinction is false. Even Wisdom as revelation is qualified as a theological virtue of intellectual assent to all that has been revealed, including the theological dogma of grace perfecting nature, and the sacred science perfecting the metaphysical, sapiential sciences. In this light, Fides et Ratio calls for an interaction between sacred theology and more contemporary Christian philosophies to the extent that they are sapiential.
August 27 at 12:32am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't know Edward Fesser (perhaps I should? maybe he is on this thread?) but a local professor just wrote this review of Fesser's book on metaphysics. http://www.catholicworldreport.com/.../metaphysics_and...
Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism | Catholic World Report - Global Church news and views
www.catholicworldreport.com
Metaphysics and the Case Against Scientism Edward Feser’s new book, "Scholastic Metaphysics", makes a strong case for the contemporary relevance of St. Thomas Aquinas’s philosophical reflections on Aristotle Christopher S. Morrissey
August 27 at 12:32am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Feser. He's a champ.
August 27 at 12:33am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Maybe tag him on this thread.
August 27 at 12:34am · Unlike · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau ha
August 27 at 12:34am · Like
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Edward Langley Peregrine, I don't think you know what "qualified" means.
August 27 at 12:35am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure This is nicely coupled with Lumen Fidei, an encyclical that has a metaphor right in its title.
The point being that love is the center of Faith, and Faith perfects reason, and math has nought to do with love, so while it may express the laws of the universe, it can enslave the spirit of man when offered in disproportionate helping.
Good night, ladies;
Ladies, good night.
August 27 at 12:38am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Feser - but he doesn't have a personal FB account, I don't think.
August 27 at 12:41am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is almost embarrassing to allow outsiders in on this.
August 27 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Kevin is an outsider, and how
August 27 at 12:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Almost. I welcome the Gentiles.
August 27 at 12:42am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird This thread is STILL ALIVE?!
August 27 at 12:43am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Someone must post a summary about every 500 posts for the sake of newcomers
August 27 at 12:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We won't be judged any worse than we already are, really.
August 27 at 12:43am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Megan - it has a life of its own.
August 27 at 12:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Um Megan Baird - this thread is outside of time.
August 27 at 12:43am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley At this point, the count is all that matters
August 27 at 12:44am · Like
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Thomas Quackenbush The summary would be the length of the reality.
August 27 at 12:45am · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley It might even be longer
August 27 at 12:46am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante like an Ent's name
August 27 at 12:46am · Unlike · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau The problem is that our summary would not match Peregrine (Scott)'s. So 2 summaries?
August 27 at 12:46am · Like
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Thomas Quackenbush Which would actually be awesome for the length of the thread, if the summarizer broke it into individually-posted bullet points.
August 27 at 12:46am · Unlike · 2
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JA Escalante Thomas, what do you think of electives for TAC?
August 27 at 12:47am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau For sure. that was a problem earlier on (lengthy posts) we'd be over 5000 if they bulleted it
August 27 at 12:47am · Like
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Megan Baird Somebody should print this thread out and create a volume of 'TAC Dialogues.'
August 27 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I'd be interested to know how many unique commenters there have been on this thread. Comment statistics for individuals would be cool too. Ed Langley, I'm banking on you having some sort of magic math formula/graph to make this a reality.
August 27 at 12:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Someday someone will write a TAC Thesis on this thread.
August 27 at 1:03am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird When I go for my second Master's, this will be the subject of my dissertation.
August 27 at 1:06am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley There are 112 unique commenters (up to my last graph)
August 27 at 1:18am · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The top ten are:
615 Peregrine Bonaventure
435 Michael Beitia
305 John Ruplinger
234 JA Escalante
234 Edward Langley
196 Daniel Lendman
178 Catherine Ryland
142 Matthew J. Peterson
122 Pater Edmund
97 Isak Benedict
92 Sam Rocha
August 27 at 1:20am · Edited · Like · 6
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Edward Langley (there's eleven in the list because JA and I were tied)
August 27 at 1:21am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha 93
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
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Sam Rocha 94
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
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Sam Rocha 95
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
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Sam Rocha 96
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha 97
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha 98
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha 99
August 27 at 1:23am · Like
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Sam Rocha 100
August 27 at 1:23am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson How's the syllabi coming along, Sam Rocha?
August 27 at 1:23am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Those who attempt to game the system will be disqualified
August 27 at 1:23am · Like · 8
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Sam Rocha Finished. Sent. Now on to this grant and a shitty preface...
August 27 at 1:24am · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, Edward, you're no fun.
August 27 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Edward tally the ad hominems
August 27 at 1:25am · Like · 7
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Edward Langley I'd probably get an automatic Ph.D. in Computer Science if I could do that.
August 27 at 1:26am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Is there an appeals process?
August 27 at 1:27am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Megan Baird Tally the misspellings of Beitia's name...
August 27 at 1:28am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley Next ten are:
91 Jody Haaf Garneau
84 Nina Rachele
80 Marina Shea
77 Lauren Ogrodnick
62 Philip D. Knuffke
60 Joel HF
49 Megan Caughron
39 Jason Van Boom
37 Daniel P. O'Connell
33 Tom Sundaram
August 27 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Me! Did I win something?
August 27 at 1:30am · Like
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JA Escalante the first time ever that Tom Sundaram talked the *least*
August 27 at 1:30am · Like · 11
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JA Escalante i mean this is really a moment
August 27 at 1:30am · Like · 5
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Marina Shea Aw it's cause Tom moved continents.
August 27 at 1:31am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley And I think Tom Sundaram intentionally unfollowed this thread.
August 27 at 1:31am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley Kinda like Isak Benedict and Jason Van Boom
August 27 at 1:31am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Marina Shea Probs
August 27 at 1:32am · Like
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Sam Rocha When do we organize a conference at TAC on this thread?
August 27 at 1:32am · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Hey I didn't even make the list....but then again, I work 5:30 am to night and don't play around at work....
August 27 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea I can talk about music in the Aveterna. I've thought about that a lot
August 27 at 1:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yeah, I did, but it still popped up in my feed somehow. Maybe too many friends of mine are involved for me to avoid it? I don't get notifications for it any more. Although I do rather want to stay involved. It's kinda fun.
August 27 at 1:34am · Like
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Edward Langley The next batch (after which accuracy probably make measurement useless) are:
31 Sean Robertson
27 Joshua Kenz
24 John Kunz
20 Tim Cantu
20 Clayton Brockman
19 Joe Zepeda
16 Katie Duda
16 Emily Norppa
15 Liam Collins
15 John Herreid
15 Claire Keeler
13 Erik Bootsma
12 Aaron Gigliotti
10 Dominique Martin
August 27 at 1:34am · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Those lists are cool. Of course, they don't account for comment length. If that were to be factored in, I wonder how the standings would change in terms of sheer output?
August 27 at 1:36am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Also, FYI: facebook makes you solve a CAPTCHA when you tag a bunch of people)
August 27 at 1:36am · Like
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Edward Langley Maybe tomorrow, Isak
August 27 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Langley, you spammer you
August 27 at 1:37am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict They want to make sure you're not a robot. Did you pass?
August 27 at 1:37am · Like
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JA Escalante I wonder if anyone's unfriended any of us for what we've done to their newsfeed/tickers
August 27 at 1:37am · Edited · Unlike · 11
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha Wait, are we robots?
August 27 at 1:37am · Like
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JA Escalante i have a strong suspicion about one participant
August 27 at 1:38am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict PB is definitely a robot.
August 27 at 1:38am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Marina Shea Yes Sam .
August 27 at 1:39am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict "The humans are dead"
August 27 at 1:39am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha Actually I've been grooming this thread to use it to promote my album on Thursday, SUCKAS!!!
August 27 at 1:39am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha The real troll emerges.
August 27 at 1:40am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know
Pro:
If I failed to pass the CAPTCHA, then my comment wouldn't be posted
My comment was posted.
Therefore, I'm not a robot (notice the enthymeme here)
Con:
CAPTCHAs are illegible for robots
I found Facebook's CAPTCHA nearly illegible.
Therefore, I am nearly a robot.
August 27 at 1:40am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Marina Shea I'm still convinced at graduation Steubenville kids get the magic power to materialize acoustic guitars at opportune moments.
August 27 at 1:41am · Edited · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz My ticker (and hence "following" this thread) automatically stops whenever Peregrine posts....that is how I know he posted. So just block him, and it won't show up in your newfeed/ticker...unless you starting posting in it again...but that counts as consent right?
Mr. Benedict, not so sure. Robot originally referred to slave labor, implying actual productivity....is something a robot when it doesn't produce anything of value? It is more like an automate vuvuzela.....
August 27 at 1:41am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
JA Escalante Brian Dragoo I know you want in this how long can you resist
August 27 at 1:41am · Like · 6
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Sam Rocha I've never blocked anyone, ever, in social media. I don't know why not. Mainly because I need any bit of attention I can possibly get.
August 27 at 1:42am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I grew up in the shadow of FUS (three uncles on the faculty: Regis Martin, Mark Roberts and Charles Fisher).
Anyway, I went to some show at Franciscan once. It was opened by a student band called "End of Silence," which was slightly ironic since that silence should never have ended.
August 27 at 1:42am · Like · 6
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Megan Baird When do we organize an All-College seminar about this thread?
August 27 at 1:43am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Brian what do you think of adding electives at TAC?
August 27 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I've actually made friends on this thread! Which is cool! Peregrine Falcon tried to friend me too, but I don't like him very much. Maybe he can persuade me with syllogisms why I should be his facebook friend?
August 27 at 1:43am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Boo
August 27 at 1:43am · Like
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JA Escalante Edward is really all for this notion
August 27 at 1:43am · Like
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Sam Rocha Woah. That was Oscar's band rock/rap band.
August 27 at 1:43am · Like
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Sam Rocha That was my era. Did I play that night?
August 27 at 1:43am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know, it was followed by a juggling act.
August 27 at 1:44am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau You don't remember Sam?
August 27 at 1:44am · Like
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Isak Benedict I love juggling.
August 27 at 1:44am · Like
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Sam Rocha Because of this thread I befriended Jody Haaf Garneau and found out that my wife is old friends with the present director of evangelization in our diocese.
August 27 at 1:44am · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley Some latino dude who was famous for the number of items he could keep in the air.
August 27 at 1:44am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha When I was a student at FUS, let's just say that I was not a big fan of sobriety.
August 27 at 1:45am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict That juggler would have done well on this thread then
August 27 at 1:45am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Not me. Wrong Mexican.
August 27 at 1:45am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird I really think this thread is the cyber equivalent of chatting on the Smokers' Patio.
August 27 at 1:45am · Unlike · 10
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JA Escalante exactly
August 27 at 1:46am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson DINGDINGDINGDING - we have a WINNER
August 27 at 1:46am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Sam - boy if I had a nickel for every time I heard that one...
August 27 at 1:46am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson One of my favorite moments on smoker's patio was one fine day when two dogs began making love in the middle of campus, right en route to the commons when people were arriving after class and for mass, etc.
August 27 at 1:47am · Edited · Like · 6
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Megan Baird Where's Rich Marotti when you need him?
August 27 at 1:47am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, thanks to this thread, I can help Sam Rocha make some new friends in the archdiocese. I think I've talked some friends into attending the CD release party.
August 27 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think someone should tag some current TAC seniors (or juniors). There must be at least 2 dozen thesis topics here (and part of the research has been done)
August 27 at 1:49am · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson A mangy mutt who was in desperately in love with a fine, pure bred rottweiler. Just wouldn't leave her alone. And in the midst of this questionably consensual contact there were people walking by en route to the commons in dress code trying to ignore the, ahem, "elephant" in the corner.
We at smoker's patio, on the other hand, were not ignoring much of anything. No. No, we were savoring every last drop of those glorious minutes.
August 27 at 1:50am · Edited · Like · 6
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Dominique Martin O my gosh. No way. What are you all doing here?!?! I seem to have been tagged a few comments ago but not sure why...
August 27 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Because you Dominique Martin made 10 comments. (now 11)
August 27 at 1:50am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We've run stats on this thread
August 27 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz This reminded me of this
Edward Langley -http://www.politicsforum.org/.../flame_warriors/flame_40.php
Peregrine- http://www.politicsforum.org/.../flame_warriors/flame_77.php
et alii http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/
August 27 at 1:50am · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley This thread comes back to haunt participants
August 27 at 1:52am · Like · 8
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Dominique Martin Wow. So is it still Scott vs. The Reasonable People regarding how non-catholic TAC is or have we moved on to greener pastures? Not that I really want to know. I think.
August 27 at 1:53am · Like · 4
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JA Escalante both
August 27 at 1:53am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ed! thesis! Your wife is going to kill all of us!
August 27 at 1:53am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Such violence..."but Christian violence, good violence"
August 27 at 1:54am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Any analysis of the Never-Ending Thread is rendered impossible by the very fact that while said analysis is occurring, the thread itself is growing comment by comment, and hurtling closer and closer towards self-realization and true unity - once a self-and-othering sort of thing, now imminently shedding the skin of duality.
Fasten your seatbelts, ladies and gentlemen. We are exiting the cave.
August 27 at 1:55am · Like · 14
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JA Escalante see this just proves Hegel right about everything
August 27 at 1:56am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Well we had the negation of the negation moment a while back.....now we approach the absolute
August 27 at 1:57am · Like · 6
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Sam Rocha German negativity will make sense of all this nonsense.
August 27 at 1:57am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I need to retire...I fully expect you guys to hit 5,000 by the time I get home from work tomorrow.
August 27 at 1:58am · Edited · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict It's a new era, folks. The World Spirit is about to look in the mirror.
August 27 at 1:58am · Like · 6
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Anne Marie Hahahahaha. Holy cow. This is insane! Here I thought that I might be the last comment back when we were at 300. Oh my.
August 27 at 2:00am · Unlike · 7
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Sam Rocha Has anyone thought to consult the Guinness now I'm distracted and thinking about beer...
August 27 at 2:01am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict The Never-Ending Thread knows no "last" comment, Anne Marie. As it is Threadness itself, and that by which all other threads are threads, it does not exist in the particular and therefore cannot be bounded, having no beginning or end.
August 27 at 2:02am · Like · 10
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Michaella Pape This thread is still going? When I checked it last week there were under 400 comments. This is quite marvelous and impressive!
August 27 at 2:03am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha No. There is nothing going on here.
August 27 at 2:04am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I feel a lot of love in this room right now
August 27 at 2:04am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell
August 27 at 2:17am · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey this seems like the perfect time to tell you all about a very special high-profit, no-risk, multi-level marketing opportunity venture I'm currently working on. It's a simple franchise investment, folks. A small initial gift gets your foot in the door right away, but you've got to act now!
Then all you have to do to be a part of it is bring in two - just two - subsequent investors and you'll be increasing your profit in no time. And you don't even have to worry about market saturation - this opportunity exists outside of time!
I only mention it because you're my friends and I wanted to give you all the first chance at some World Spirit Networking income!
August 27 at 2:21am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I was reflecting on something you said above, Isak. I have been trying to loosely chronicle the "history" of the thread. However, being outside of time, it really isn't history. As I said above, there is an "above and below" but not a before and after, strictly speaking. It strikes me that this bears a remarkable similarity to either the structure of heaven or of hell as Dante recounts them.
Tom Sundaram, it might be time for you to tell us about Dante again.
August 27 at 2:26am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Apparently this is my 198th comment
August 27 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman For my 199th I will say that I am surprised that Aaron Dunkel hasn't been showing us any love on this thread.
August 27 at 2:27am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha Isn't this ^^ cause for disqualification?
August 27 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Whatever the structure is Daniel, it's totally not a pyramid!
August 27 at 2:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman For my 200th post I will repeat the most important and substantive thing I have contributed to this thread:
TAC is the best!!!!!!!
I am the best!!!!
USA, USA, USA!!
August 27 at 2:28am · Like · 7
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Sam Rocha He's got a certain style.
August 27 at 2:29am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict He does. He may be useful to us here at World Spirit Networking - Division of Sacred Theology and Pep Rallies.
August 27 at 2:31am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel's 198th comment was borderline. But the others had actual content.
August 27 at 2:36am · Like · 3
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Aaron Dunkel I didn't want 1500 notifications
August 27 at 2:36am · Like · 5
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Tom Sundaram I would, but I am gonna be busy in Siena today, praying to St Catherine for your collected souls.
August 27 at 2:37am · Like · 8
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Tom Sundaram Aaron Dunkel - you're telling me! I was tagged in the original status!
August 27 at 2:37am · Like · 5
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Michaella Pape I attempted to catch up - this thread is really too much! Some day I will read all of the comments, which can make one feel "outside of time" only to have that seemingness dissolved by a glance at the clock. Good night!
August 27 at 2:38am · Like · 2
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Emily Norppa Tom Sundaram: What about our individual souls?
August 27 at 2:39am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell The agent intellect is ONE, Emily!!
August 27 at 2:39am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Collective Soul is a fun band. But yes, individually too.
August 27 at 2:40am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Do join me! Everyone is invited! Except Peregrine
August 27 at 2:45am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman For my 201st comment, I would like to note that my 198th comment was meant only as a reflection on the diligent efforts of Edward Langley's documentation of the comments on this thread. You may now all expect at least 99 more comments from me, so that I can end on a good solid 300.
August 27 at 2:55am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Step into my officeness, Daniel. I'd like to discuss your future with our company.
August 27 at 2:57am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And past, actually.
August 27 at 2:57am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And present, if it existed.
August 27 at 2:58am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If that sounds like you're getting fired, it's because you're not.
August 27 at 2:59am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Aaron Dunkel, you should not stay away!
I want to talk about why metaphors aren't syllogisms again.
August 27 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Good night.
August 27 at 3:24am · Like · 3
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John Kunz I know it was 3 hours and 648 comments ago... But Matthew, I defy your recall of the greatest smokers patio moment of all time. In fact, it was a sunny day, and a certain Jay Krautmann was sitting there with his guitar, along side Herbert Hartman, you, sir, Mr Peterson, myself, & several of the other usual suspects... At this point, a certain Karen zedlick approached and engaged in conversation (something heretical & non-magesterial, I'm sure). At one point, she requests the guitar & says, "mr Peterson, may I play for you? But of course, if I play... I must sing as well..."
Nothing was the same after that...
August 27 at 5:14am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I remember that, Kunz....... and what I love is I still get to be number two in comments after taking 12 hours off at a time. (number one if you consider non-robots).
And Edward Langley, I'm sure I've won the "most ad hominems leveled at" competition.
Daniel Lendman, metaphors are syllogisms, if one can't reason well.... case in point?
August 27 at 7:32am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund On the theses volume front. Which of these two titles is better: 1Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College
2 Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College?
Also add any better ones here: https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit... Also: The nominations are pretty heavy on the recent years, as Joel HF has observed. We need some nominations from the good old days.
Thomas Aquinas College Theses Volume - Google Docs
docs.google.com
August 27 at 8:15am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia As Good Hegelians, Pater, we realize that the more recent theses are intrinsically better. (that and I think the thread is top heavy in terms of the participants)
August 27 at 8:17am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger how embarrassing. Off to do penance. Is that 100 years for every post in the 10th circle, do you suppose?
August 27 at 8:18am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia we just call them "partial" now
August 27 at 8:19am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger considering this was about TAC theses, a remarkable number of comments about Chrirtendom theses like "how a metaphor is a syllogism" which i think also demonstrates the correctness of Matthew's observation about the strength of TAC's curriculum.
August 27 at 8:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Metaphor is a syllogism works if you can't do math.... but can only speak in broad lyrical vistas of the TL:DR variety.
And I love me some rhetorical points. I may make a few....
August 27 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i think Christendom theses win with respect to producing unending threads. They also may make one more employable irl.
August 27 at 8:44am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Funny - in all these thousands no one has brought up the nerdy pick up line comment even once.
August 27 at 8:45am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think most (?) of us are married? Maybe?
August 27 at 8:46am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman John Nieto's thesis was supposed to be quite good.
August 27 at 8:46am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Well, that and the slideshow makes it really hard to sit through for all the thesis titles Peterson. I think I read three or four...
August 27 at 8:48am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like the first title better, Pater Edmund.
August 27 at 8:50am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure It's amusing how the founders of Thomas Aquinas College believed they discovered the one thing wrong with the world and the Church, and that they were the only ones who discovered it, and the college is the only place you can find the answer:
Aristotle's notion of causality, embedded in the Summa.
Because academia and the Church lost sight of this, we have things like modern science, abortion and divorce and the folk Mass.
Aristotelian Causality is the drum the bang over and over again.
But the world today believes in cause and effect. It just lost sight of the first cause.
And banging their drum does nothing to correct this.
Because the world disbelieves because of lack of grace, not metaphysics; as the Church state, grace is needed.
And grace is an effect to the gift of faith and a response of love, which presents a whole new world of learning, which TAC ignores.
August 27 at 8:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia How about "Irresponsible Agent Intellect: Wild Speculation sans Magisterium"
August 27 at 8:51am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of banging drums... welcome back Scott.
August 27 at 8:51am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia or better yet: "Theological Hubris: Metaphor as Syllogism"
August 27 at 8:52am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia (he just came back so I wouldn't take over first place in number of comments)
August 27 at 8:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think one of the first things I learned at TAC was that I don't need grace. That is why they offer mass 4 times a day; confession 8 times, adoration daily, and have 4 full time chaplains.
August 27 at 8:53am · Unlike · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Math is useful for college accreditation; but harmful because it has made fluff out of everything else.
August 27 at 8:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^stop reasoning^
How about: "Mathematics is Dangerous: 5 Ways and 3 Persons make 7 virtues"
August 27 at 8:55am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Generally the homilies at TAC are about the geometric perfection and proportions that can be discerned in our better-than-Christendom's-chapel.
August 27 at 8:55am · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia ah.... here goes: "Non-Euclidean Theology: Metaphorical Syllogisms in Magisterial Holistic Grace"
August 27 at 8:56am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is a commonly held position among the faculty and students that Prop. 1, 47 was the first real icon of the Trinity.
August 27 at 8:56am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman And that Euclid was Aristotle's pen name.
August 27 at 8:57am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Hang on, hang on.... I thought 2 11 demonstrated the Trinity
August 27 at 8:57am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia by way of construction
August 27 at 8:57am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Well, that's fair.
August 27 at 8:58am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman 1,47 just showed us what we were looking for.
August 27 at 8:58am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 2 11 makes cuts the AB into the golden ratio by constructing the golden ratio on the original line, turned at right angles and by extension, thus showing how God proceeds from himself, as the Son from the Father in order that the cut, the golden cut, produce that which is perfect in the Holy Spirit
August 27 at 8:59am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman And Scott says math isn't important for theology!
August 27 at 9:00am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Michael St. Patrick's metaphor-proof is a better syllogism: God is a shamrock. Therefore, there are three Persons and one God.
August 27 at 9:04am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think you believe if you go to Mass, and trust the plan, then God will give you grace to become a right-thinking and truly liberal Catholic man of leisure, and you will have the answer to the world's problem.
This is the form of political correctness.
August 27 at 9:04am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "What the magesterium says is metaphor" and "how drawing conclusions from magesteriaj propositions is heretical?" "whether Euclid was baptized and should be studied at a magesterium approved college, sans discursive reason but argued assertively by metaphorical syllogism?"
August 27 at 9:06am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman If you actually paid attention to what I write, you wouldn't have to guess at what I believe. You would just ask me and I would tell you.
August 27 at 9:06am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure And being a cult.
August 27 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If you actually paid attention to what I write, you wouldn't have to guess at what I believe. You would just ask me and I would tell you.
August 27 at 9:08am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Daniel, don't you remember consecration at curfew in the dorms? St. Aristotle and St. Euclid were promised our undying devotion.
Gnosis gnosis gnosis
August 27 at 9:11am · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure TAC reads so much Aristotle and Thomas because... they believe causality is the one thing that went missing from the world, and they need to bring it back.
August 27 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia That's why Pope Leo XIII recommended it. Lost causality. . .
August 27 at 9:14am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia plus, I figure by 4000 comments I can get close to 500 personally, for a robust 12ish%
August 27 at 9:16am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia stop stop stop. It wasn't for lost causality, it was for lost syllogistic metaphorical holistic magisterial grace
August 27 at 9:17am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Scott, it is interesting if you actually read what The Founders of TAC said, they don't mention causality as a reason for starting TAC.
It is not surprising, therefore, that under the pressure of ever widening vocationalism and humanism, Catholic education, immersed in this tide, is capsizing. Blurred in its vision, it cannot well distinguish and justify true liberal education apart from vocational and professional training, in a time when technical and technological progress seem to be everything that is commonly regarded as worthwhile. Correlated with man’s hope in technology is his despair in knowing the truth about reality, which desperation gave rise originally to humanism. Even against the humanistic part of modern “liberal education,” wherein man turns back upon himself for the meaning of all things, which view always favors the “world” against God, and man against his Creator, the benighted Catholic college has found itself defenseless. This capitulation shows on the one hand the general lassitude and dullness to which we are all heir, but on the other hand it shows more importantly what was noted above: the Catholic college has never really understood itself, has never, that is, thought out the exigencies of a liberal education which is undertaken in subordination to the teaching of the Church, and which has as its aim an intellectual perfection which is possible and proper to the Catholic alone. Such an education demands that all the parts of the curriculum not ordered to technical concerns should be conducted with a view to understanding the Catholic faith, and that the Faith itself should be the light under which the curriculum is conducted.
August 27 at 9:17am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia but they mean causality #gnosis
August 27 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Also, here Brain Kelly talks about why we study Mathematics:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/.../newsl.../winter-2011_web.pdf...
August 27 at 9:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The Great Dr. McArthur says about why they founded the college:
"We wanted a college that was seriously intellectual. We wanted, as such, to frame a curriculum that would be possible but demanding. At the same time, we wanted it to be deeply Catholic, which is impossible without a serious curriculum to match. People can have good will and be very good people, but there is no education unless the mind is developed. It is possible to have an institution with Catholic rules, a Catholic demeanor, good Catholics as teachers and students, but yet fail to educate. This is what we wanted to address."
August 27 at 9:20am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman From what the Angelic Neumayr says, it almost looks like the reason we study Aquinas and Aristotle is because we are following the Magesterium:
"Among scholars St. Thomas is a recognized master. For the Church he is the Theologian. The Church, as the popes have told us, has embraced his mind as her own — and this because he has unfolded the knowledge of ordinary experience, a knowledge shared by all men, with an almost unique fidelity to our shared experience. St. Thomas in his turn called Aristotle “The Philosopher:” the voice of the human mind itself. Speaking of Aristotle, then, Cardinal Newman said, “He told us our thoughts before we were ever born.”
Going from what we all know implicitly about the visibilia to an explicit account is not easy — and few, no matter their brilliance, have done it with perfect fidelity. Even the great St. Augustine concedes that though he knows what “time” is, he is at a loss when asked to explain it. St. Thomas and, perhaps, Aristotle before him were unique among men in this genius.
With good reason the College organized the course of studies to proceed “ad mentem Thomae.” This is to seek out an understanding of things according to the mind of Thomas; and not in any of the Neo-Thomisms that lived briefly and died in schools. This is to say that the College truly seeks to make its students disciples of Thomas. Discipleship asks more than a mere acquaintance with this master’s thought. His thought squares with our own and becomes our own."
August 27 at 9:22am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman ...but I heard from someone, once, that TAC doesn't care about the magesterium. Huh?
August 27 at 9:23am · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Are you talking about the overt TAC doctrine
or the secret doctrine
#gnosis
August 27 at 9:23am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Shockingly, Neumayr goes on to imply that sanctity and moral rectitude are important:
Question: But why this unique role for St. Thomas? Why among the rich minds of the renowned scholars should Thomas stand out? Aren’t they all geniuses of a sort?
Dr. Neumayr: Yes, but Thomas was not only a genius, he was also a saint. This can hardly be claimed for most of the Masters. But you might ask what difference does sanctity make? Is it merely an inspirational aspect that it brings? Or does it bear on the intellectual life itself?
The moral, in fact, has a central part in the intellectual life. Most of the more serious errors in judgment are more moral than intellectual. It is a moral failing rather than an intellectual one to claim that you see what you do not see, or that you do not see what you do see. The fallen nature of man makes a dogmatism favoring our own ideas almost irresistible. Those who would insist that a mere hypothesis be absolute are claiming to see what they do not see. The sanctity and the genius of St. Thomas would give him a certain immunity from claiming that he sees what he in fact does not see.
This moral rectitude in the pursuit of Wisdom ad mentem Thomae, in my humble opinion, is inextricably tied up with the mission of the College, and its future depends on this discipleship to our patron.
What does this mean for discipleship? You can’t be a disciple of just anyone, but only one you take to be both wise and honest. St. Thomas makes clear, for example, that the five proofs for God’s existence set out in his Summa Theologiae are irrefutable. By his genius he sees the truth of the demonstrations; by his sanctity he does not lie. We, his students, though we may struggle, have every expectation that we may come to see as he does that God must exist and cannot not exist.
August 27 at 9:24am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is just amazing what one can find when one actually pays attention to what people say and do.
August 27 at 9:26am · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Last time I looked, the First Cause is as alive in the world today as when God said let there be light.
But alas, you maintain, it is not God's Nature that lacks Nature's God, but modern man's understanding of nature.
Therefore, Math!
The language of causal science.
***
How has this proposal played out? Has it fixed the problem? No, not even among those who believed the problem was the problem.
August 27 at 9:27am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^just keep asserting it, maybe then someone will believe you^
August 27 at 9:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, are you drunk?
August 27 at 9:29am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Daniel, you show remarkable patience trying to reason, quoting people, linking articles. Don't you know that you just have to keep asserting the same thing, and it's all cool. I trust you
August 27 at 9:29am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and math isn't the language of causal science, its the language of casual science. Like science in yoga pants
August 27 at 9:30am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I am not sure that anyone who knows about the First Cause would ever think that there was a problem with the First Cause not being in the world. Because if the First Cause were not there, there would be no there, there for it not be in.
Scott, maybe if you did more metaphysics you would avoid such an embarrassing mistake. Fortunately, you are around TAC students and we don't care much when people make mistakes like that. We are a rather tollerant and patient lot. in that regard.
August 27 at 9:33am · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger Daniel, i disagree on one point. The universities did once know what they were about. They over time forgot as they strayed.
August 27 at 9:34am · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Keep banging those drums of Aristotelean causality. Those Whoville drums.
August 27 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John, I think I and the founders agree with that, mostly.
August 27 at 9:36am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger it only takes one or two generations. Bede observed that. It is evident two when the jesuits were suppressed.
August 27 at 9:37am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I am pretty sure it is too early in the day for you to be so inebriated.
August 27 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I just did a page search for "Aristotelian causality" and got no hits. The only thing close was "Aristotelean causality" [sic]
Who is beating a drum?
August 27 at 9:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In seriousness, Scott, this seems to be typical of your discourse. It seems that you seldom really want to know what other people think.
August 27 at 9:39am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I call it "Linda Blair on facebook"
It's all fine and dandy until he disagrees with someone..... then the head spins around
August 27 at 9:40am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I am going to have some quality time with the Mrs. I will be back, I am sure.
August 27 at 9:41am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'll just stick to ducking "work" for a little while longer
August 27 at 9:44am · Like
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Nina Rachele did you guys go back to this topic so we could hit 4000 faster?
August 27 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it was suggested..... elsewhere.....
August 27 at 9:49am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Damn you, Edward, for tagging me back into this madness.
August 27 at 9:51am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Joel HF wrote it best.
"The call of the cthreadulhu: 'That thread is not dead, which can eternal lie. Yet with strange aeons even death may die.' To gaze upon it, is to know madness, and to comment, is to never escape."
August 27 at 9:52am · Edited · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Pater Edmund I like 1) better, though 2) gets points for Latin and awesomeness.
August 27 at 9:54am · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger you remind me, michael, of a thesis i meant to propose for discussion: "the neverending thesis" or "how one escapes the never ending thread" or "we are stuck in the 10 th circle: what dante would do."
August 27 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I remember Mr. DeLuca telling us two things in Junior Philosophy:
(1) perfume is meant to remind you of sex. look at the ads!
(2) math is better than the magisterium because you can prove the trinity from it. Trinity has three right there in the name, and that's math!
August 27 at 9:59am · Edited · Like · 5
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Joel HF Beitia -- What'd I write best?
August 27 at 9:59am · Like
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Sean Plus Anne Schniederjan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE
Grateful Dead - Truckin'
Grateful Dead - Truckin' Garcia;Lesh;Weir;Hunter Lyrics:Truckin got my chips cashed in. keep truckin, like the do-dah man Together, more or less in line, jus...
August 27 at 10:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "so many,
I had not thought that death had undone, so many."
August 27 at 10:24am · Like · 2
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John Hall Tim Cantu, I was in your section and I can verify that we did in fact learn the aforementioned.
August 27 at 10:28am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu ^it's hard to believe, but it is indeed true.
August 27 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele you guys got practical life information in junior philosophy? so jealous right now.
August 27 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Thomas Quackenbush http://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw
St. Patrick's Bad Analogies
The problem with using analogies to explain the Holy Trinity is that you always end up confessing some ancient heresy. Let the patron saint of the Irish show...
August 27 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I thought I quoted it earlier, Joel.... plus you need to get back into the thread. Time's a-wastin
August 27 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Any thesis yet on how God breathed life into a dead monkey?
August 27 at 11:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia Is that your excuse?
August 27 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'll be here all day, tip your waitresses
August 27 at 11:01am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu It's all covered in senior lab (the monkey thing, that is.)
August 27 at 11:02am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu (did I miss somewhere in the previous 1000 comments where someone made the dead monkey claim?)
August 27 at 11:02am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Lab? I thought it was seminar.... so much has changes [glances out into the distance wistfully]
August 27 at 11:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia quomodo magna simiae?
August 27 at 11:03am · Like
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Tim Cantu I didn't pay a lot of attention to any of senior year, so that's probably right.
August 27 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You're all working for me now. Gnosis gnosis
August 27 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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John Hall gosh, it's called "Natural Science" now, at least that's what the kids tell me.
August 27 at 11:11am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia wait wait...... you're telling me that you can reason to things, natural things, from the things of nature?
*mind blown*
August 27 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Re theses, Pater Edmund, I think my wife's suggestion of asking the school for a list of double distinctions by year could be a good jumping off point in terms of older theses.
August 27 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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John Hall As long as you start from pure a priori cognition, sure!
August 27 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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John Hall But I meant that the class formerly known as "Lab" is now literally called "Natural Science"
August 27 at 11:15am · Like
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Tim Cantu That's good, because "Lab" sets you up for the very real disappointment of not spending time in Kronk and Yzma's lab making llama potions.
August 27 at 11:16am · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia well, I did once intuit a priori time...
August 27 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia got better
August 27 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joel, I don't know about that suggestion. That would be to assume that those grading the theses have some idea of what they're doing.
August 27 at 11:20am · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF True, but it would be a list to work off, at least.
August 27 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Almost
August 27 at 11:21am · Like
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Pater Edmund THE THREAD: A TRIOLET
Like dog to vomit, thread recursive:
Theology’s slave is metaphysics!
Without its slave its not discursive!
Like dog to vomit: thread recursive.
We need The Physics, need coercive:
Need logic, math, and pagan ethics!
Like dog to vomit, thread recursive:
Theology’s slave is metaphysics!
August 27 at 11:22am · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Adrw Lng at
August 27 at 11:22am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia 4001 (edited for accuracy)
August 27 at 11:22am · Edited · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu stay on target... stay on target! 4,000!
August 27 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Jonathan Monnereau 1st! Oh wait...
August 27 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I think it's a great summation of this entire thread that despite several people's efforts to hit it themselves, #4,000 was "at"
August 27 at 11:22am · Like · 5
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Sean Robertson Nice. So "at" is our glorious 4,000th comment.
August 27 at 11:23am · Unlike · 5
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Adrw Lng I wish I could say that "at" is the worst comment in this magnificent train-wreck
August 27 at 11:24am · Like · 8
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Pater Edmund I also like this quote from Fides et Ratio: "Theology in fact has always needed and still needs philosophy's contribution. As a work of critical reason in the light of faith, theology presupposes and requires in all its research a reason formed and educated to concept and argument. Moreover, theology needs philosophy as a partner in dialogue in order to confirm the intelligibility and universal truth of its claims. It was not by accident that the Fathers of the Church and the Medieval theologians adopted non-Christian philosophies. This historical fact confirms the value of philosophy's autonomy, which remains unimpaired when theology calls upon it; but it shows as well the profound transformations which philosophy itself must undergo. It was because of its noble and indispensable contribution that, from the Patristic period onwards, philosophy was called the ancilla theologiae. The title was not intended to indicate philosophy's servile submission or purely functional role with regard to theology. Rather, it was used in the sense in which Aristotle had spoken of the experimental sciences as “ancillary” to “prima philosophia”. The term can scarcely be used today, given the principle of autonomy to which we have referred, but it has served throughout history to indicate the necessity of the link between the two sciences and the impossibility of their separation."
August 27 at 11:27am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Have you noticed that the thread is recursive?
August 27 at 11:29am · Like · 5
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Tim Cantu Really? mine is in plain old printed letters.
I'll see myself out.
August 27 at 11:29am · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund "I'm not yelling at you:" http://youtu.be/AxQ7oqOTXlI?t=3m25s
Loriot "Feierabend" (einfach hier sitzen)
Das vollständige Original.
August 27 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict http://instantrimshot.com/
Welcome to Instant Rimshot
instantrimshot.com
If you need quick access to an ironicly-placed rimshot sound to mock your friends, or a genuinely-placed rimshot to put your great joke over the top, you've come to the right place.
August 27 at 11:31am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng How about some celebratory music for 4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdHK_r9RXTc
Reggie Watts disorients you in the most entertaining way
http://www.ted.com/ Reggie Watts' beats defy boxes. Unplug your logic board and watch as he blends poetry and crosses musical genres in this larger-than-life ...
August 27 at 11:33am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but God gave us reason, we used that to make instruments, and measure red shift..... who knows "how long" creation took, but I'm pretty confident in was somewhen in the order of 14 billion years ago
August 27 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #Gnosistalking
August 27 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Sorry, I keep posting unfinished things accidentally and then deleting them.
August 27 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Blasted shift/return.
August 27 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia malformed thoughts haven't stopping anyone else
August 27 at 11:46am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia <--- guilty
August 27 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Third Secret of Fatima: This thread will end only when Causality has been returned to Nature.
August 27 at 11:47am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^Also guilty^
August 27 at 11:48am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you liked my comment? My gnosis must be on the fritz
August 27 at 11:48am · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure And now, I am going to type into this discussion, every word of TS Eliot's The Wasteland, word for word.
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure April
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure is
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure the
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Please no
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson cruellest
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia month
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bringing
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure month
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure something about tubers
August 27 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Shantih Shantih Shantih
August 27 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Whew, now that that's over with...
August 27 at 11:50am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I need Aaron Gigliotti's expert advice on the Theses Volume title question: Which of these two titles is better:
1 Learning and Discipleship: Undergraduate Theses from Thomas Aquinas College,
2 Lac Ab Uberibus Almae Matris: Undergraduate Work from a Catholic Liberal Arts College,
or rather, what should the title of this volume be? https://docs.google.com/.../1PutRC7wDJYJ1XughyMKZ.../edit...
August 27 at 11:51am · Edited · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I have no idea what gnosis is. Are they gonna take my degree back?
August 27 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like the first better, honestly. But I really hate the word "discipleship" Mr Berquist ruined that for me
August 27 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Is this up to too many comments to just jump in?
August 27 at 11:56am · Like
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Catherine Ryland ^^ No, never.
August 27 at 11:57am · Unlike · 4
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Sean Robertson It's up to too many comments to NOT just jump in.
August 27 at 11:57am · Like · 5
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John Boyer Nice
August 27 at 11:57am · Like
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Catherine Ryland We may be arrogant jerks, but we are inclusive.
August 27 at 11:58am · Edited · Like · 8
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John Boyer I too aspire to be an arrogant jerk and inclusive.
August 27 at 11:58am · Like · 6
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Aaron Gigliotti Pater Edmund "A Well-Read High School Geometry Teacher: Intellectual Pride in the Catholic Ghetto."
August 27 at 11:59am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger Michael of the second most comments. 4000 is now yours.
August 27 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Is deleting old comments to manipulate the thread grounds for thread excommunication?
August 27 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.
Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.
August 27 at 12:19pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Yes but who is the thread magisterium?
August 27 at 12:20pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Good question. But if it's latae sententiae, does it matter?
August 27 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I would argue the Thread is its own Magisterium.
August 27 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I nominate pope Peregrott. Is mine the 4000th now?
August 27 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Organically developing in response to the churnings of the heresy factory.
August 27 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Either that, or we're all on the Barque of Peterson.
August 27 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland (Off-topically, is there a particularly good recording of Handel's Messiah on youtube? I already listened to one, but I'm supposed to listen to it for work.)
August 27 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r68P8TBWiIQ
Handel Messiah, by London Symphony Orchestra & Sir Colin Davis 1966
Handel Messiah, by London Symphony Orchestra & Sir Colin Davis 1966.mp4
August 27 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Catherine Ryland, one of the best, imo.
August 27 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Catherine, how is that off-topic? Who made you the topic cop?
the thread, as self-actualizing universality, determines the topic, not us.
August 27 at 12:27pm · Unlike · 4
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John Boyer From looking at this thread and the disagreements, I think there is a thesis/antithesis/synthesis going on. So the thread is the world spirit.
August 27 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland The topic magisterium.
August 27 at 12:29pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel BTW, turns out Truth is not a woman. Nietzsche is now being published with gender inclusive language
August 27 at 12:32pm · Unlike · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure The topic is how everyone in the world has lost their sense of Aristotelian causality, and how TAC is working to fix this problem.
August 27 at 12:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^nope that's just your ax-grinder
August 27 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel "If truth be a person, what then?"
August 27 at 12:33pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Dunkel "if truth is an it, then what?"
August 27 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Please, you have to say it mathematically if you want it to count as rational discourse.
August 27 at 12:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [Eureka! "excommunication latae sententiae" or "How to exit TNET?]
August 27 at 12:37pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel "if truth is a peregrine, how to proceed?"
August 27 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 1 a fool
+
2 bold assertion
=
3 Peregrott
August 27 at 12:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia "he or she is considered profound, because he or she cannot find a bottom to him or her. He or she isn't even shallow"?
August 27 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Can we all just agree: modern man does not believe in God anymore, so the way to fix this problem is by teaching Catholic college students about Aristotelean causality.
August 27 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^Yes!
August 27 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia education X vangeliz / duc = evangelization
August 27 at 12:41pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel If truth were a peregrine, you capture it, hood it, put it on a birdstand in your living room for about 3 mos so it becomes docile to your voice and dependent on you for food. And then you could take it hunting, training it to dive bomb on your favorite targets....
August 27 at 12:41pm · Unlike · 7
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John Boyer Aristotelian causality is necessary, but more fundamentally, which causality presupposes, is essentialism. Without an understanding of nature, we can make no headway.
August 27 at 12:42pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure That's backwards, John. We cannot metaphysically know anything about Nature, without assent to revelation:
DOGMA:
In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order.
Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
August 27 at 12:48pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia there you go responding to something no one asserted again. Can we add "take a drink" every time I accuse you of straw man?
August 27 at 12:49pm · Unlike · 4
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Sean Robertson *makes popcorn*
August 27 at 12:49pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^pour a drink for me^
I'm at "work"
August 27 at 12:49pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Even this dogma just by the wording still allows for some religious and moral truths to be known without supernatural revelation, if not easily or with perfect certainty or totally free from error.
August 27 at 12:50pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland No one said metaphysics was easy.
August 27 at 12:50pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure "Aristotelian causality is necessary" sure does not sound like a straw man, especially when the Church teaches infallibly that revelation is necessary to understand metaphysics.
Now, if anyone cares to engage in a rational dialogue...
August 27 at 12:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict http://stream1.gifsoup.com/.../eddie-izzard-popcorn-gif-o...
stream1.gifsoup.com
stream1.gifsoup.com
August 27 at 12:52pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure smokescreen
August 27 at 12:52pm · Like
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Frank Morris the truth will not be hooded, nor hidden in smoke.
August 27 at 12:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Bonaventure is like the students in the Thinkery, studying math in the sand with their face-eyes at the same time as studying the heavens with their nether eyes. Aristophanes was a genius.
August 27 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer If knowledge about nature is impossible without revelation, then how do you take Rom 1:19-21?
August 27 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris His powers of ridicule were feared and acknowledged by influential contemporaries;
August 27 at 12:55pm · Like
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Frank Morris their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened
August 27 at 12:56pm · Like
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Adrw Lng On a serious note, I initially thought (2k comments ago) that the main confusion by the thread antagonist concerned the distinction between the order of learning and the order of the sciences, but it appears the deeper issue is, ironically, his inability to perceive reality.
August 27 at 12:58pm · Unlike · 5
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Frank Morris G is revealed in nature.
August 27 at 12:58pm · Like
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Frank Morris can metaphysics shift the perception of reality?
August 27 at 1:00pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel
August 27 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel for your popcorn
August 27 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Sorry, Catherine, when the Church taught "it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order..."
She really meant:
"Yeah, metaphysics is tough, but thanks to the way Thomas Aquinas College teaches Aristotelean causality, problem solved. Nature redeemed! Salvation is at hand!"
August 27 at 1:02pm · Like
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Frank Morris Romulus and Remus were/are more entertaining.
August 27 at 1:02pm · Like
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Frank Morris "it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order..." nature is hungry-popcorn don't satisfy.
August 27 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland The root problem here is that it is commonly held that we can't reason about magisterial pronouncements.
August 27 at 1:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Frank Morris the magisterium's pronouncements are to form consciouses.
August 27 at 1:05pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel
August 27 at 1:05pm · Like · 4
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Frank Morris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience
Conscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from wrong. Moral judgment may derive from values or norms (principles and rules). In psychological terms conscience is often described as leading to feelings of remorse when a human commits actions that g…
August 27 at 1:05pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure God's "eternal power and deity" (Roman 1:19) cannot be clearly perceived through Nature, save by the assistance of grace.
The infallible Church is to be assented to.
August 27 at 1:06pm · Like
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Frank Morris the church only infallible when it says it is.
August 27 at 1:06pm · Like
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Frank Morris get that hood off me.................................
August 27 at 1:07pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Daniel, look what you got me to do now
August 27 at 1:07pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer Um, Peregrine, you are conflating two positions. How do you counteract a materialist worldview which categorically excludes God and the supernatural? By REVELATION! No. The claim isn't that TAC teaching Aristotle solves all our problems and gives you understanding of everything. Rather the claim, which needs defense, but defense can definitely be made, is that with a materialist/mechanistic view of the world, you cannot know God at all nor can you be open to revelation. So unless God goes Road to Damascus on everyone, we need to till the fields. And that is done by attacking the reductionist worldview that denies essences exist. Only by doing this can reason be prepared to tackle difficult questions. You seem to be tilting at windmills which aren't even present in this conversation.
August 27 at 1:07pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Lest we believe, as you seem to be teaching, that Aristotelean causality is an apologetical panacea, and a stepping stone to Revelation, in the order of being and discovery. This is backwards.
August 27 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Boyer OT: I asked students if they could disprove the principle of non-contradiction. One student said that Jesus was both man and not-man at the same time. How do you respond? I have my own answer, but would be interested in hearing what y'all have to say.
August 27 at 1:09pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure God does go "road to Damascus" with everyone. And it seems you're presenting the materialist/mechanistic world view as a straw man. No problem using pagan causality to go after that. Just don't use it to build a Catholic college around.
August 27 at 1:10pm · Like
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John Boyer What?????
August 27 at 1:10pm · Like
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John Boyer Sigh. Yes, by talking about hylomorphism, we are worshiping Apollo. THE GIG IS UP EVERYONE! Close down the college. We have been unmasked.
August 27 at 1:12pm · Unlike · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure John Boyer, you claim that only by studying pagan causality can you be prepared to tackle difficult question. Sorry, but this is utterly preposterous.
Don Quixote is the autobiography of Thomas Aquinas College.
August 27 at 1:12pm · Like
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John Boyer I guess I should not have gone to college but just stayed home and prayed reeeeeeeaaaaaaally hard? I'm not sure why you have such animus toward a view of the world that was adopted by doctors of the church.
August 27 at 1:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Aaron Dunkel Seems the magician has convinced you of the Moor's lie....you even embrace the Arabic spelling
August 27 at 1:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Aristotelean causality is a fine rebuttal to materialism and mechanism. Just don't premise Catholic education on it. Catholic education begins and ends with faith.
August 27 at 1:13pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Pagan Causality? Because causality works different once you're baptized....
August 27 at 1:14pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer Well, seeing as TAC begins with a year of scripture, I'm not sure what you are asserting.
August 27 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Catholic causality: Same effects, now with 100% more JESUS!
August 27 at 1:15pm · Unlike · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure That world view was not adopted by the Doctors. The Doctors always first assented to the principles of Faith, then studied the pagans, not the way you propose.
August 27 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland We do agree that faith or belief in God is always a gift of God. Always and everywhere!
August 27 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Reading the Bible is not a comprehensive introduction to the deposit of the Faith and the principles that the Doctors assented to throughout their studies.
August 27 at 1:15pm · Edited · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thank you Catherine. Let us agree that Faith always comes from God.
August 27 at 1:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger QED many times: Pergrine does not undersand what he asserts.
August 27 at 1:17pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Yes! But that doesn't mean we can't study with our reason at least some of what has been given to us by God.
August 27 at 1:17pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, Max, causality does work differently once you are baptized, as a matter of fact. Thank you.
August 27 at 1:17pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Remember what Rome made Bautain sign?
“We promise for now and forever: NEVER TO TEACH … 3 that with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics, and the truths depending on it, as a science totally distinct from supernatural theology, which is founded on divine revelation…”
August 27 at 1:18pm · Unlike · 5
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Frank Morris i think Peregrine understands what he asserts.
August 27 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Well, Catherine, the Church teaches you can't understand those things properly, without an assent to revelation, which implies an understanding of sacred theology.
August 27 at 1:19pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Indeed I do understand what I assert. Thank you and God bless Frank.
August 27 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Philip D. Knuffke Mr. Bonaventure, you say that TAC is teaching Aristotelian philosophy without revelation, but that is simply not true. They explicitly say that the whole course of studies is conducted under the light of faith. Moreover, you just seemed to arue like this: since you can't know ALL natural truths without using revelation(whatever that means exactly), therefore neither can you know ANY.
August 27 at 1:19pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Pater you're just reading it out of context and/or it doesn't mean what it clearly means because if it disagrees with PB it simply cannot mean what it means
August 27 at 1:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Philip D. Knuffke Dd you really mean that?
August 27 at 1:20pm · Like
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Frank Morris i assert with Pater Edmund
August 27 at 1:20pm · Like
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JA Escalante Mr Knuffke, vide my entire engagement on this insane thread for the answer to your q
August 27 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Isn't it a dogma that we can know some truths via reason? So, if that's true, wouldn't it be material heresy to claim “We cannot metaphysically know anything about Nature without assent to revelation”?
August 27 at 1:21pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe can you cite some text for that?
August 27 at 1:21pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Mr Knuffe Sir: I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."
So Aristotelean causality is not the secret sauce, or the appetizer, or the first course.
August 27 at 1:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater, rephrasing that in simpler words might help.
August 27 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure running for lunch.
August 27 at 1:21pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Yes, Joel HF, the heresy Bautain was forced to publicly renounce.
August 27 at 1:22pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund See I can split infinitives too.
August 27 at 1:22pm · Like · 3
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Philip D. Knuffke Well it would be a difficult position to maintain. Presumably, he would need to have that statement itself revealed to him too.
August 27 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I was already trying to rephrase that, even for myself, but I'm also trying to cook lunch.
August 27 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris Catholic education begins and ends with faith.
August 27 at 1:23pm · Like
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JA Escalante fun with Fideism!
August 27 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger but can he grasp that?
August 27 at 1:23pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Let's have some Alexander Pope:
«See skulking Truth to her old cavern fled,[451]
Mountains of casuistry heap'd o'er her head!
Philosophy, that lean'd on heaven before,
Shrinks to her second cause, and is no more.
Physic of Metaphysic begs defence,
And Metaphysic calls for aid on Sense!
See Mystery to Mathematics fly!
In vain! they gaze, turn giddy, rave, and die.
Religion, blushing, veils her sacred fires,
And unawares Morality expires. 650
Nor public flame, nor private, dares to shine;
Nor human spark is left, nor glimpse divine!
Lo! thy dread empire, Chaos! is restored;
Light dies before thy uncreating word:
Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall;
And universal darkness buries all.»
August 27 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris killing time.
August 27 at 1:23pm · Like
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--I believe Vatican I also has something to say about it. I think poor Peregrine doesn't know the magisterium he loves so passionately
August 27 at 1:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger pb could not distinguish syllogism and metaphor.
August 27 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Wow, I just saw PB's comment: «I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."»
That's formal heresy right there.
August 27 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Frank Morris naaaaah, mere anarchy not yet loosed.
August 27 at 1:25pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Edward Langley already pulled out the Vatican I.
August 27 at 1:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Pater Edmund
August 27 at 1:26pm · Like · 4
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Frank Morris My reason must allow, that I had wooed, not as I should. A creature made of clay. When the angel woos the clay, he'll lose his wings at the end of the day.
August 27 at 1:27pm · Like
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Max Summe So - just to be clear - Pater Edmund just pointed out that Peregrine Bonaventure just assented to a formal heresy...
So - who's the super-Catholic now!?
/troll
August 27 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Yeah, also the comment I quoted. No metaphysical knowledge without assent to revelation. Really? From the guy rabbiting on about how TACer's lacked magisterium?
August 27 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger NO I SUSPECT HE DIDNT GRASP THE CONDEMNATION. I misread it earlier too.
August 27 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Yes - but he just AFFIRMED THAT POSITION.
I also did not grasp the condemnation at first either. But he affirmed that's exactly what he's arguing for - a condemned position.
August 27 at 1:29pm · Like
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Max Summe PB - care to recant?
August 27 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe It's unfortunate I can't tag him - he'll never read this far back....
August 27 at 1:29pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So basically we need to address Fideism ...
August 27 at 1:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger he read it opposite its meaning.
August 27 at 1:30pm · Like
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Max Summe By the time you go "get lunch" and get back to this thread... it will be at 5000 comments, and who has the time to catch up when velocity increases....
August 27 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Which condemnation are you talking about Max Summe? There have been a few that PB didn't quite grasp.
August 27 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://godwillbegod.com/.../07/uroboros-MoM-figure-29.png
godwillbegod.com
godwillbegod.com
August 27 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe The one where he explicitly said:
Peregrine Bonaventure Mr Knuffe Sir: I am just saying what Pater Edmind just cited: "with reason alone one cannot have the science of principles or metaphysics."
So Aristotelean causality is not the secret sauce, or the appetizer, or the first course.
August 27 at 1:31pm · Like
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Max Summe Joel HF - that was in response to what you just said
August 27 at 1:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Maybe the self-actualizing world spirit has turned into Jormungandr
August 27 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Right, I just wondered which condmnation, b/c there were a couple others along the same lines, iirc.
August 27 at 1:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia don't magisterially magisterium your magisterially magistic teachings.
#gnosisrocks
August 27 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke Why does this guy hate TAC so much?
August 27 at 1:33pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger it containr 2 negations: too many for pb; he has problems with math and logic inter al.
August 27 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante just be ready for the decisive "it doesn't say that/you're taking it out of context/you lack the sacred integral sapiential gnosis and thus can't properly read that" argument. I mean, "argument"
August 27 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer You said gnosis. that takes me back to junior music with Molly Gustin.
August 27 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Philip D. Knuffke--No one really knows. Though getting told TAC "wasn't for him" (or something to that effect) by a senior tutor probably didn't help. Nor did having to leave after several attempts at freshman (and sophomore?) year.
August 27 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Phillip... go back a few thousand comments. It explains EVERYTHING
August 27 at 1:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley It seems to me that Peregrine has just now recovered from explicitly denying a statement taught by Vatican I 2000 comments ago.
August 27 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia except he doesn't understand it that way.
August 27 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Vatican I: "10. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
August 27 at 1:36pm · Like
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Joel HF I cherry-picked the above quote from like, dozens, that would equally support the point. And, Edward Langley, PB didn't recover, he has been more explicit than ever in his rejection of them. (Though, I imagine he thinks he DOES agree with them...or is it vice versa?)
August 27 at 1:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley .
Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the
other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
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[snip]
Edward Langley You haven't answered my question, Peregrine
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[snip]
Edward Langley Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?
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[snip]
Daniel Lendman Edward, I think you are being ignored.
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JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
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[snip]
JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
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JA Escalante oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling
1 hr · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.
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Edward Langley Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.
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[snip]
Daniel Lendman Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.
1 hr · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Scott, the appropriate response is silence.
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Michael Beitia if you can't distinguish between metaphor and syllogism, you'll affirm or deny anything.
August 27 at 1:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Here it is, Vatican I "1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema."
August 27 at 1:39pm · Unlike · 6
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John Boyer "Hence also the possession of [knowledge of the first causes] might justly be regarded as beyond human power; for in many ways human nature is in bondage, sot that according to Simonides 'God alone can have this privilege', and it is unfitting that man should not be content to seek the knowledge that is suited to him." From the Pagan Aristotle, Metaphysics 1.2 982b28-32
August 27 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joel, the way to do it is to quote Vatican I without citation and ask Peregrine if what you've quoted is true. When he denies it, watch him backpedal.
August 27 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Joel, the trick is now to say that your quote isn't the "fullness of faith" play a little three card mental monte and accuse everyone of heresy
August 27 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Peregrine Bonaventure That's false Edward, and you take Vat I out of context. Right reason is an effect of assent to Faith, which is clearly the foundation of the Faith.
1 hr · Like"
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Andrew Benjamin Harrah 4k comments. Well played Matthew
August 27 at 1:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley In The Neverending Thread, thread comment on you.
August 27 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well played Matthew? He barely cracks the top ten
August 27 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel Perhaps the antagonist ought to follow the ancient dietary laws of avoiding ostrich meat.
August 27 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Still got a way to go:
http://recordsetter.com/Facebook-world-records
Facebook World Records
recordsetter.com
Check out some of the coolest and quirkiest Facebook world records and videos. Impress your friends by breaking or inventing your own Facebook world records on Recordsetter.com.
August 27 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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John Haggard Well, let it never be said I didn't do my part.
August 27 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think we should make Peregrine wear a scarlet H
August 27 at 1:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel scarlet is too noble of a color...let us go with bile green
August 27 at 1:47pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia how about a scarlet "I" for idiot
August 27 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe While making fun of PB is fun... because...
We should also remember that we should probably do our best to help him not be a heretic...
August 27 at 1:49pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland YOu guys are brats.
August 27 at 1:50pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I think we're at the point where argumentum ad baculum is the only option left.
August 27 at 1:50pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia how's that possible, Max? Dialogue has to be possible first
August 27 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (Who's name-calling now?)
August 27 at 1:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Catherine: me, and yes, I am a brat
August 27 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Michael Beitia I don't know how it would be possible - perhaps argumentation + dialogue is not the answer - at least not in its current form and tone?
August 27 at 1:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's just like, you're opinion, man
August 27 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Maybe you should also burn him, since he's a material heretic, and dialogue is no longer possible. Cuz it's loving to help someone see their error by killing him.
August 27 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Public shaming is a form of argumentum ad baculum, and is often helpful in correction.
August 27 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, he called me a thug approximately 4000 comments ago.
August 27 at 1:53pm · Like · 2
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Philip D. Knuffke I think TACers should not be allowed to use facebook to dispute...
August 27 at 1:54pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger short, monosyllabicly worded questions and refusal to respond to his assertions?
August 27 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia better:?
http://assets.dogtime.com/.../50e.../column_Cat-meme_021.jpg
assets.dogtime.com
assets.dogtime.com
August 27 at 1:55pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia cat memes > disputation
August 27 at 1:57pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel What can be done when we point to the moon and our finger gets stared at?
August 27 at 1:57pm · Unlike · 5
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John Ruplinger start howling like our "interlocutor", Aaron.
August 27 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Plus, Catherine, I actually went line by line through Pope Francis's first encyclical with him on facebook with Megan and Mr.Ferrier back when he was just Scott. I tried
August 27 at 2:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger maybe that's it. Say absurd things on simple matters and see if he can correct his thinking by correcting others. IDK
August 27 at 2:04pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF That Ferrier thread is linked somewhere above, hidden by a few thousand comments.
August 27 at 2:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel something like this, John?
August 27 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Just to fill in for the "new" contributors, in case y'all haven't yet figured it out Peregrine aka Scott Weinberg, doesn't care about rational discourse. He raises some interesting questions, but cannot get beyond that.
As a rule, he does not really pay attention to what you say. It would seem that he is not interested.
He makes blind assertions and insults without basis.
Feel free to engage, but just know that he is a troll without equal.
If you do not believe me, you can just look above. His position with regard to TAC has been refuted a dozen times just in this thread.
August 27 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger cant see it, Aaron.
August 27 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Dunkel its a wolf howling.....it was suppose to be a gif, that's probably why you can't see it
August 27 at 2:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Most recently he has been talking about how the TAC founders thought that Aristotelian causality is the panacea for our world's ills.
It apparently does not interest Scott that our founders never said any such thing.
I quoted all of them at length above about 700 comments ago.
August 27 at 2:11pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF John, I can't believe you've hung in this thread when you can't even see Peregrine's posts, and aren't even a TAC grad.
August 27 at 2:11pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante Catherine is right that open meanness is never called for; she's just suggesting that we all act like Christians
August 27 at 2:11pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia A different one Joel. One specifically about the encyclical
August 27 at 2:13pm · Like
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John Boyer 700 comments ago? HA!
August 27 at 2:13pm · Like
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Joel HF I remember that one, vaguely. More of the same, iirc.
August 27 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante but honestly Catherine I think we've all MOSTLY been pretty good sports here
August 27 at 2:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley And now for a diversion:
Suppose two people play a "guess the number I have in mind game" except, rather than one person trying to guess the number the other is thinking of, he's trying to pick a point on a line that the other person has thought of. What is the probability that the guesser picks the correct point?
On the one hand, if the things to be guessed were line segments, the probability to pick a given segment varies directly with its length. Thus, it would seem that the probability to pick a given point would be 0 (i.e. as the limit of decreasing lengths). That is, it is impossible to pick the given point.
On the other hand, that point was already picked and if it was impossible for it to be picked, it could not have been picked. Thus the probability that it is picked must be > 0.
August 27 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Actually, Joel, there have been many interesting things on the thread and its more tolerable not to see pb. I am in an intellectual desert.
August 27 at 2:15pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, if even Aristotle had the humility to know that true metaphysical knowedge is impossible without God's help, don't you think it would be a good idea to teach Catholic college students the principles of Revelation in the infallible deposit of the Faith and of sacred theology?????
Just askin'
August 27 at 2:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine, how about replying to the proposition Rome made Bautain sign? It was quoted earlier by Edmund, and you're ignoring it
August 27 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I suppose it depends on what you mean
August 27 at 2:20pm · Like
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Philip D. Knuffke Are you serious Mr. Peregrine Bonaventure?
August 27 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That's his mantra, he repeats it to assure himself of its truth, Philip
August 27 at 2:21pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe PB! You're back - you missed the point where we just noticed you explicitly assented to an heretical statement by quoting it.
August 27 at 2:21pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Also, as an update, it became clear above that Scott is a material heretic with regard to relation of faith and reason by denying a central point of Vatican I.
Specifically he denies: "right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things"
August 27 at 2:21pm · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews I think that reading every comment on this thread should count toward credit hours.
August 27 at 2:22pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Max, I think his first name is Pope, which is why he is so persistent about this magisterium thing.
August 27 at 2:22pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick It's hump day, isn't it. . .
August 27 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia All day long.....
August 27 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peregrott, what are the principles of revelation, in your own words?
August 27 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps it is opportune for me to point out that, if the Church actually took Scott's position on things the Nicene Creed could never have been formed.
August 27 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger peregrine can not be heretic. HE DOESNT understand what he is saying. He is indocile though.
August 27 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Let me ask the question again:
If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without God's help, and since the *fullness* of God's "help" came after Aristotle, do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that "help" first?
Seeing as that "help" deals with: 1) some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason (albeit with His help) and 2) other things which can be known only in faith, then would it not be wise to teach students all of that deposit, and first, so everyone knows what that help is?
TAC proposes the opposite.
August 27 at 2:27pm · Like
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Max Summe PB - you haven't responded to the point that you're assenting to heresy.
August 27 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman See, this is a good question/objection! The only problem is that it has been answered before. But I think we should try again.
John, for your benefit, this is what Scott said: "Let me ask the question again:
If Aristotle himself knew that metaphysics was impossible without God's help, and since the *fullness* of God's "help" came after Aristotle, do you not think it is more important to teach the full deposit of that "help" first?
Seeing as that "help" deals with: 1) some things pertaining to God which can be know by reason (albeit with His help) and 2) other things which can be known only in faith, then would it not be wise to teach students all of that deposit, and first, so everyone knows what that help is?
TAC proposes the opposite."
August 27 at 2:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia again, what do you mean by "full deposit" is it a list?
August 27 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is also a good question!!!
August 27 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Let me ask again.
Since Aristotle had the humility to know that metaphysics is impossible without God's help, would it not be wise to learn what that help is?
August 27 at 2:29pm · Like
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Max Summe Can we talk about the Deposit of Faith in relation to material heresy?
You can't keep trumpeting the Church and deny her teachings!
August 27 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman <I am the self-appointed cheerleader>
August 27 at 2:29pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Dunkel The Pandorica will open, Silence will fall....who knew how prophetic those words were from the multi-form at the beginning of Dr. Who, Season 5
August 27 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I second Daniel for cheerleader. (pics or it didn't happen)
August 27 at 2:30pm · Like · 5
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Max Summe HAHAHAHA ^^
August 27 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Help = the deposit of the Catholic Faith.
August 27 at 2:30pm · Like
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Michael Horton I think the thesis on animal feelings sounds timely and interesting. Just wanted to add that.
August 27 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think the problem is that one cannot understand the deposit of the Catholic Faith without sound philosophy. The Church's own definitions are predicated with philosophical terms.
August 27 at 2:32pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Its Newman's fault: what happens when so called real apprehentioms are elevated above notional ones. He too seems to have rejected that we can know God "notionally". We wind up solipsic and trapped in our own mind unable to communicate with personal "experience" of God and irrational (toa degree since it is impossible simpliciter) fideism.
August 27 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Fine:
August 27 at 2:34pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, I patently disagree with that. Indeed, the opposite is true. You cannot understand philosophy, without God's help. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. You indicate TAC attempts to do the opposite.
Do you agree with this?
August 27 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Doesn't "faith seeking understanding" imply that faith is not, of itself, understood?
August 27 at 2:36pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure And you cannot establish a "sound philosophy" without assent to God's help first, which you cannot do without studying it. Agree?
August 27 at 2:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley Kinda like the phrase "man seeking wife" implies that he does not yet have a wife?
August 27 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Here is the difficulty. You equate God's help with understanding the deposit of faith. Now, I agree with Vatican I that faith and reason are mutually up-building and aid one another. However, nature proceeds grace. (Because grace is for the sake of make a nature like unto God). So, the help that comes in metaphysics is largely had (at first) through prayer and spiritual exercise.
August 27 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel The broad-backed hippopotamus
Rests on his belly in the mud;
Although he seems so firm to us
He is merely flesh and blood.
Flesh-and-blood is weak and frail,
Susceptible to nervous shock;
While the True Church can never fail
For it is based upon a rock.
The hippo's feeble steps may err
In compassing material ends,
While the True Church need never stir
To gather in its dividends.
The 'potamus can never reach
The mango on the mango-tree;
But fruits of pomegranate and peach
Refresh the Church from over sea.
At mating time the hippo's voice
Betrays inflexions hoarse and odd,
But every week we hear rejoice
The Church, at being one with God.
The hippopotamus's day
Is passed in sleep; at night he hunts;
God works in a mysterious way --
The Church can sleep and feed at once.
I saw the 'potamus take wing
Ascending from the damp savannas,
And quiring angels round him sing
The praise of God, in loud hosannas.
Blood of the Lamb shall wash him clean
And him shall heavenly arms enfold,
Among the saints he shall be seen
Performing on a harp of gold.
He shall be washed as white as snow,
By all the martyr'd virgins kist,
While the True Church remains below
Wrapt in the old miasmal mist.
August 27 at 2:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Aaron Dunkel, that is a favorite of mine.
August 27 at 2:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, I responded to Scott saying: "Daniel, I patently disagree with that. Indeed, the opposite is true. You cannot understand philosophy, without God's help. The maxim is faith seeking understanding. You indicate TAC attempts to do the opposite.
Do you agree with this?"
August 27 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And "And you cannot establish a "sound philosophy" without assent to God's help first, which you cannot do without studying it. Agree?"
August 27 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^Formal heresy?^
August 27 at 2:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger thanks, Daniel. He is partly right. But difficult to correct bc confused and indocile. Very confused.
August 27 at 2:39pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Daniel that image is obscene!
August 27 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That's all I get from you!
August 27 at 2:40pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I disagree with that Daniel. I equate God's help with revelation; and to have that "help" you need the Church, her teachings, and you need faith, to assent to those truths, and you need to study them, and to do that you need to be presented with them. Thomas's metaphysics is not the same as Aristotles'.
You, and TAC, seem to be saying the metaphysics and revelation are equal, and equally help each other.
This is false.
August 27 at 2:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Doesn't "faith seeking understanding" imply that faith is not, of itself, understood kinda like the phrase "man seeking wife" implies that he does not yet have a wife?
August 27 at 2:41pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Here I am not calling anyone a heretic or troll and you criticize my cheerleading outfit! Catherine! Where's the love?
August 27 at 2:41pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman What does homoousion mean?
August 27 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Peregrine seems to think that "faith seeking understanding" means "you can't understand anything unless you first have faith."
August 27 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Thus making all of philosophy into Sacred Theology.
August 27 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What does it mean for the soul to be the form of the body as the council of Vienne defined?
August 27 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, Ed, faith seeking understanding simply means gaining a greater understanding of the reasonability of the faith.
August 27 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, faith presupposes reason.
August 27 at 2:43pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland My poor eyes.
August 27 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Gaze for a while on the Never Ending Thread as it grows and all will be well.
August 27 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Never again to be unseen.
August 27 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Faith presupposes reason.
August 27 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger YES. WE CAN UNDERSTAND NO ARTICLE of faith without reason.
August 27 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, Peregrine, one cannot disagree well unless one actually addresses one's opponents: whether by presenting an argument for your own view, by distinguishing some term your opponent uses or by refuting some claim your opponent makes. Merely reasserting your own position like a broken record is none of these things.
August 27 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Here is another argument: Faith is a virtue, but the definition of virtue includes the account of a rational nature. Therefore, faith presupposes reason.
August 27 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Man seeking wife: This thread seems to have turned into a singles classified. Illustrated, sadly.
August 27 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Peregrine: Yes or no, do you agree or disagree that “the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason”?
August 27 at 2:48pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, Ed, "faith seeking understanding" does not mean "you can't understanding anything unless you first have faith." It means you would not exist without God, and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without faith. And since that is the case, and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the Church, in Her sacred theology, would you not want to study what those principles and teachings are, how they came to be, how they came to improve the metaphysics of the pagan, and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present moment?
August 27 at 2:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Turned into?"
August 27 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger BUT HIS CONFUSION AND OTHERS HERE (i think) is that de fide propositions (and not a special gift of the Holy Spirit) are what preserve us from many errors of reason darkened by sin and ignorance.
August 27 at 2:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That is a position that has been explicitly condemned.
August 27 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, that is true, Joel. We cannot know our Lord God without His help. So let us learn what that help is.
August 27 at 2:49pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, we want to know what the Church says, but to understand homousion and "soul is form of man" requires sound PHILOSPHY.
August 27 at 2:49pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia We may have a shot at 8128
August 27 at 2:50pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman John, this is just in from Scott,
"No, Ed, "faith seeking understanding" does not mean "you can't understanding anything unless you first have faith." It means you would not exist without God, and you cannot understand anything about God in Himself or in his Revelation without faith. And since that is the case, and since the principles of faith have been authoritatively presented to man through the Church, in Her sacred theology, would you not want to study what those principles and teachings are, how they came to be, how they came to improve the metaphysics of the pagan, and how and what they are doing through the ages to this present moment?"
August 27 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Keep it going! Wooooooo!
August 27 at 2:50pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe Joel HF - looks like he assents to that statement
August 27 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Peregrine--you realize that that proposition was *condemned by anathema* at Vatican I? I quote “If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.” Thus you must REJECT that idea if one wants to remain faithful to the Catholic magisterium!
August 27 at 2:51pm · Unlike · 8
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Edward Langley TAC -- 2, Peregrine -- 0
August 27 at 2:52pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I wonder how many sentences Peregrine would reject if we just quoted VI one sentence at a time.
August 27 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel!!! That was a gotcha argument! It was low-down and dirty... and AMAZING!
Edward Langley, look at the example you have set.
August 27 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure ***********Yes, Daniel, understanding the soul as form, requires sound philosophy, but sound philosophy requires sound Revelation, which requires the Church. ******Consider the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in light of Thomas' use of philosophy of the soul. He erred on this dogma ***because of*** his view of the soul. The Church did not err because the Church is aided by God in a unique way.********
So let us study that fully.
August 27 at 2:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, you have to start seeing that your position is really breaking down.
August 27 at 2:53pm · Like · 3
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Timothy Moore I think this thread has gotten way past harmful.
August 27 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please, Scott, for the good of your own soul and well being, you need to assent to the teaching of the Church.
August 27 at 2:54pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger AGAIN. He is not an heretic. Through modern "education" he has become imbecile.
August 27 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF It wasn't a gotcha, b/c I'd quoted the Vatican I statement in its entirety earlier today in this very thread. With attribution too. Moreover, I do sincerely hope that PB will come to the truth. (As I know, do you, Daniel.)
August 27 at 2:55pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Actually, St. Thomas's denial of the IC is consistent with his commitment to speculate as little as possible beyond things revealed by God. Of course the content of the Deposit of Faith was later made more explicit, but that's neither here nor there.
August 27 at 2:55pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure How is my position breaking down, Daniel?
August 27 at 2:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia scroll up
August 27 at 2:55pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Don't you see how you have explicitly rejected truths defined by the Church?
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, tell me how my position is breaking down?
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Twice.
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure No. How?
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure OK, where?
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Quote it again
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine can you please just reply to the propositions quoted from Vatican I and the recantation of Bautain? They directly contradict you
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia someone has to have it on ctrl+v
August 27 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I'll quote Vatican I again: "If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema." You explicitly agreed with the condemned statement.
August 27 at 2:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ok. You rejected as false, this statement: The one, true God, our creator and lord, can be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason.
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Edward Langley "Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the
other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds."
1 hr · Like · 2
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[snip]
Edward Langley You haven't answered my question, Peregrine
1 hr · Like
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[snip]
Edward Langley Does "right reason establish the foundation of faith" or not?
1 hr · Like · 1
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[snip]
Daniel Lendman Edward, I think you are being ignored.
1 hr · Like
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JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
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[snip]
JA Escalante Peregrine you crack me up. Do you ever actually respond to an argument, or do you just reassert your cranky position over and over?
1 hr · Like · 2
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JA Escalante oh I forgot, you also resort to name-calling
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Peregrine Bonaventure Right reason does NOT establish the foundation of Faith. Assent to revealed supernatural truths DOES establish the foundation of Faith and these truths are the principles of sacred theology.
1 hr · Like
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Edward Langley Well, then you're a material heretic: that quotation was from Vatican I.
1 hr · Like · 4
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[snip]
Daniel Lendman Edward, that was a gotcha argument, underhanded, and dirty. I really liked it.
1 hr · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Scott, the appropriate response is silence.
1 hr · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, what Joel just said.
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Please show me where I erred, and contradicted the teaching of the Church, if this is your claim?
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Ed
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Do you see how that just happened?
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF and Pater Edmund.
August 27 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante we just showed you, Peregrine
August 27 at 2:58pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland That is: He is anathema who says that God cannot be known from creation and human reason.
August 27 at 2:58pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Slow down, guys
August 27 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Let him respond.
August 27 at 2:58pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger thanks. Daniel. He needs it broken down.
August 27 at 2:58pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Even more strongly, Catherine: " by the NATURAL light of human reason."
August 27 at 2:59pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Thank you! (Not that I care what the magisterium proclaims magisterially.)
August 27 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Okay, maybe I do a little.
August 27 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel Behold, the sun pierces the fog
August 27 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Don't speak so soon, Aaron.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Everyone following should take a moment and pray for Scott. Now.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Are you going to let me respond?
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Brats.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Seriously.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please do.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Beyond harmful towards
healing. This needs to be a healing thread. The soothing eternal return.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland I love all of you.
August 27 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure May I respond?
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like
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Joel HF PB, please do respond, by all means!
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Please do!
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Does he grasp his statement. Does he grasp that that is what is condemned?
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He is asking for time to respond.
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Let's find out. Hush for a second.
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF He's asking us to let him respond, so let's hold off until he does so.
August 27 at 3:01pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia there's no way this turns out badly
August 27 at 3:02pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I have hope. The Peregrine may yet take wing.
August 27 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia cue jet engine
August 27 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger TRADITIONALLY, an heretic is given 6 months to recant. PB needs more time perhaps. Go gentle. He is confused.
August 27 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gur8ccqrQ9c
When You Believe - The Prince Of Egypt
"When You Believe" is the Official Movie Soundtrack of Prince of Egypt. In the film, this song of inspiration is performed by the characters Tzipporah (Miche...
August 27 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.
Thank you.
You seem more interesting in proving you are right, then understanding what is true.
But I thank you for letting me respond.
August 27 at 3:06pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland It's okay, Peregrine. They do this to EVERYONE. Including me at times. I have been known to throw pencils at people across the table. And burst into tears.
August 27 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel Wrong...It is extremely difficult to know without an admixture of error and may require much in the way of time....but not impossible
August 27 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Fascinating.
August 27 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland And I was usually wrong of course.
August 27 at 3:07pm · Like
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Joel HF When do we do this to you, Catherine Ryland? And moreover it is done entirely out of love!
August 27 at 3:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, Scott, I take it from your response that you do not recant?
August 27 at 3:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, this was from Scott: "Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.
Thank you.
You seem more interesting in proving you are right, then understanding what is true.
But I thank you for letting me respond."
August 27 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Do you not see how faith presupposes reason?
August 27 at 3:09pm · Like
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John Boyer I think the hang up here is the admixture of error point. That needs to be addressed to move forward otherwise this could continue to go in circles like so many epicycles.
August 27 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7yKg57tPVU
What happens when a bird hits a jet engine
Ever wonder what would happen if birds were sucked into a jet engine?
August 27 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John Boyer, that is going to happen anyway, we are in The Never Ending Thread.
August 27 at 3:11pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland I think the thread is intended to move epicyclically. (You beat me, Daniel.)
August 27 at 3:11pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman We should also all take a moment and recall all the times we have obstinately held a position even though we recognized, however vaguely, that the other had a better argument and position.
August 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Well then this part of the conversation is retrograde motion.
August 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante "Some people" is a distinction you've not admitted before, Peregrine. So basically, what you're saying is: you agree with Vatican I that natural theology is quite possible without revelation, but that there will always be some error admixed; and that, with revelation, metaphysics is purified of that but without losing its relatively independent status?
August 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is really hard, sometimes, to change one's mind and to admit error. Especially publically.
August 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Okay, let's talk about what it means to be infallibly infallible.
August 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yes John Boyer I have seen and recorded now four periods of retrograde motion. These are also known as "Dark Ages"
August 27 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Usually increased participation from Catherine is a herald of a new Renaissance.
August 27 at 3:14pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Tim Moore is our "storm crow."
August 27 at 3:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So, Scott, that is really all the response we're going to get?
August 27 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there can be no dark ages on the NET only varying degrees of dog-returning-to-vomit-edness
August 27 at 3:15pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am very sensitive to those degrees Michael.
August 27 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Don't judge.
August 27 at 3:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger RESPOND thus: can an atheist follow Aquinas and be convinced without error as Adler?
August 27 at 3:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have a strong stomach
August 27 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I really thought something great was going to happen.
August 27 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia enlightenment?
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah.
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia then it wouldn't be neverending.
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like
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John Boyer Hegelian synthesis.
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer That never ends.
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, let's take a look at his response:
Some people can know God as an uncaused cause by reason alone, but not without some admixture of error. Revelation and assent is needed to know without error. This is the *infallible* teaching from Vat I.
August 27 at 3:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see? now we're back to Hegel. Take out Phenomenology of Spirit, add Heidegger
August 27 at 3:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger one can admit that Aristotle had errors. But in principle it is not necessary.
August 27 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John Boyer you suggested that we tackle "the admixture of error" part.
August 27 at 3:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel Perhaps a Hegelian duel is in order
August 27 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What does that mean?
August 27 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What must it mean?
August 27 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Mr. Lendman has now taken the role of Tutor . . .
August 27 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland TACers are arrogant jerks.
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Let's go through this line by line
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland They really are, even if they're right.
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng, join in!
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the internet isn't known for friendliness
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You guys must have really boring jobs.
August 27 at 3:20pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer Let's look at source of quote first.
August 27 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But we are friendly, arrogant jerks.
August 27 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if you get a few drinks in us
August 27 at 3:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Good idea John Boyer!
August 27 at 3:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha I am still waiting for classes to start. I am still on vacation!
August 27 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Samantha, being a professor/grad student leaves a fair amount of free time which can be used for productive ends or Facebook.
August 27 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Aristotle knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of error.
Encyclicals must be read in context, not so much on facebook.
Some encyclicals say Thomas is pre-eminent. This does not mean this is all the theology we study. We must study what the Church teaches in Her fullness, and make assent to this.
This knowledge precedes metaphysics, so why does TAC not teach it?
August 27 at 3:22pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Can we take this somewhat seriously please? Even if we can't change PG's mind we may be able to understand his position with more clarity and then how to answer it
August 27 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Or just very, very good at avoidance behavior.
August 27 at 3:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, that is a good question, but we are looking at your response from above first.
August 27 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia PB: your claim that "this knowledge precedes metaphysics" needs clarification. What do you mean by "precedes"?
August 27 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Particularly, we are trying to discern what admixture of error means.
August 27 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer There are two questions there PB. I think it better to address the issue of natural knowledge of god and hash that out before making an assertion and then demanding an answer as to why TAC doesn't live up to it. That's avoiding the question.
August 27 at 3:23pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick One thing at a time. . . Ahh nvm this is Facebook
August 27 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John, Scott just said "Aristotle knew by reason that God exists but with some admixture of error.
Encyclicals must be read in context, not so much on facebook.
Some encyclicals say Thomas is pre-eminent. This does not mean this is all the theology we study. We must study what the Church teaches in Her fullness, and make assent to this.
This knowledge precedes metaphysics, so why does TAC not teach it?"
August 27 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So where is that quote from anyway?
August 27 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I would say that the phrase in question ultimately comes from Aquinas, no?
August 27 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Das Wahre ist so der bacchantische Taumel, an dem kein Glied nicht trunken ist, und weil jedes, indem es sich absondert, ebenso unmittelbar auflöst,—ist er ebenso die durchsichtige und einfache Ruhe."
August 27 at 3:25pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure "Some people" as in you guys. Get it?
August 27 at 3:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see..... here comes Linda
August 27 at 3:26pm · Like
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John Boyer ST I, Q. 1, A. 1 Co "I answer that, It was necessary for man's salvation that there should be a knowledge revealed by God besides philosophical science built up by human reason. Firstly, indeed, because man is directed to God, as to an end that surpasses the grasp of his reason: "The eye hath not seen, O God, besides Thee, what things Thou hast prepared for them that wait for Thee" (Isaiah 64:4). But the end must first be known by men who are to direct their thoughts and actions to the end. Hence it was necessary for the salvation of man that certain truths which exceed human reason should be made known to him by divine revelation. Even as regards those truths about God which human reason could have discovered, it was necessary that man should be taught by a divine revelation; because the truth about God such as reason could discover, would only be known by a few, and that after a long time, and with the admixture of many errors. Whereas man's whole salvation, which is in God, depends upon the knowledge of this truth. Therefore, in order that the salvation of men might be brought about more fitly and more surely, it was necessary that they should be taught divine truths by divine revelation. It was therefore necessary that besides philosophical science built up by reason, there should be a sacred science learned through revelation."
August 27 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger THEN PB doesnt deny the statement. AND AN ATHEIST like Adler can follow Aquinas and be without error. (Daniel)
August 27 at 3:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick What kind if necessary is Thomas using there? Sorry if that's an easy one, but he says necessary even with those things that could have taken a long time to come to know by natural reason and by a few.
August 27 at 3:29pm · Like
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John Boyer Side note, I appreciate the sentiment behind the use of the Arabic "N" profile pic, but I get lost as to who is talking sometimes.
August 27 at 3:30pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger NECESSARY to avoid error but more importantly for salvation.
August 27 at 3:33pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Well, the obvious reply, Lauren, although I don't think this is really answering you fully, is that the preambula fidei can be known by reason. However, since many cannot figure them out by reason alone due to difficulty (and time involved that most people don't have), they are revealed in revelation. The same would be said of the 10 commandments, which many argue are precepts of natural law, and thus discoverable by reason. However, there was still a need to give them by divine revelation because not everyone figured out that theft or murder or adultery are wrong.
August 27 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think that quote is from Ott
August 27 at 3:34pm · Like
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John Boyer Link plz?
August 27 at 3:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley "In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order. (De fide.)"
http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm V.9
August 27 at 3:36pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So the necessity is not because man cannot get there on his own, but it is more effective to have it through revelation so more men are saved. (Sorry, for just repeating, but it seems we've had the difficulty of necessity earlier on)
August 27 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Thanks, Edward
August 27 at 3:36pm · Like
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John Boyer Lauren, that's my meaning, yes.
August 27 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If someone has the actual book by Ott, it might be nice to see what he cites for that proposition.
August 27 at 3:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia except knowing the religious and moral truths of the natural order is not the same as being saved
August 27 at 3:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley I also find it interesting that that formulation says "morally impossible" rather than "impossible".
August 27 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer My guess is Aquinas, given the formula.
August 27 at 3:38pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Catherine Ryland: Not ALL TACers; Mr. Collins is not a jerk. From the archives:
August 27 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund More from the same thread:
August 27 at 3:38pm · Like
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Pater Edmund And:
August 27 at 3:39pm · Like
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Pater Edmund https://www.facebook.com/emily.norppa/posts/512239741478
Emily Norppa
A few years ago, Dr. Kelly wrote an article for the TAC newsletter about why we study math. Does anyone happen to have a copy of that which they could send me? Let me know and I'll private message my email address to you.
Also, other articles about why we study math that aren't simply STEM-related would be great.
Andrew Seeley Sean Collins Richard Delahide Ferrier Edward Wassell Gregory Froelich Brian Dragoo Nick Ruedig Tom Sundaram
August 27 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ok. So man can know some, but not all the truths of the faith through reason. But not all men can through reason, hence the way revelation is considered necessary. (Sorry!) If so then are disagreement with PG would be the some vs all vs any men.
August 27 at 3:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley John Boyer, that wouldn't explain why it's listed under "Dogmas of the Catholic Church"
August 27 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer True
August 27 at 3:40pm · Like
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John Boyer But as the original source of the formula...unless Aquinas is going back to something prior. The similarity of wording is striking to my eye at least.
August 27 at 3:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Sam Rocha This just occurred me, but do TAC'ers read Frege? Catch my drift?
August 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Um, sorry, I don't mean interrupt your victory lap, your spiking of the football. BUT, Holy Church teaches revelation is needed to know the Lord without error.
So why not study that?
August 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Peregrine, I think what the Church teaches is that most people need to have the both the preambles and the articles of faith revealed to them in order to prevent errors.
August 27 at 3:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, at least in principle, it is possible for someone to come to know all the preambles without revelation.
August 27 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick So to know ALL the truths yes, but for some men they can know some of the truths through reason..., right?
August 27 at 3:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think the disagreement is rather "some men can know the truths of the moral and natural order" vs. "entire deposit of the faith" - the latter, no one has claimed.
August 27 at 3:45pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer ^THIS
August 27 at 3:46pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Is there an implication here, somewhere, that Catholics must know how to read? I sure hope not.
August 27 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nor would anyone
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Michael Beitia rather I think the context of Vatican I would be helpful. What, historically, caused the anathema?
August 27 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm not sure that it would follow that you have to know how to read inorder to reason to truths.
August 27 at 3:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer People saying things that were wrong.
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John Boyer Lauren, I've heard it helps.
August 27 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure I never know if you are serious? Is there a way to tell?
August 27 at 3:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I mean Nicaea is a response to Arianism, right?
August 27 at 3:47pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley All those Roman Nazis.
August 27 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what is VI a response to?
August 27 at 3:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think to rationalism and fideism
August 27 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger mb, it was Newman (See above and below this comment. But seriously as y'all know i think he thunk the same.) . . . . It is a consequence of empirical nominalism: viz. fideism and immanentism.
August 27 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (i.e. the followers of Descartes and those of Pascal)
August 27 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bwahahahahahahahaha
August 27 at 3:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley Taking Descartes and Pascal as metaphors
August 27 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Trent anathematized Jansenism, right?
August 27 at 3:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, Trent was 16th century, Jansenism was 17th
August 27 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia So is PB's position fideistic? or some new thing?
August 27 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent
August 27 at 3:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Jansenism has primarily to do with the role of grace in salvation.
August 27 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think PB's position comes to fideism, although he doesn't admit that.
August 27 at 3:54pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I was thinking Pascal....
August 27 at 3:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Pascal was 17th century
August 27 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia And I was thinking the canons on justification.
August 27 at 3:55pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I admit it does not come to fideism. I have a great example... (In meeting)
August 27 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is interesting: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vatican Council
www.newadvent.org
The twentieth and up to 1912, the last ecumenical council, opened on 8 December, 1869, and adjourned on 20 October, 1870
August 27 at 3:56pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia Pascal in relation to Jansenism, canons on justification from Trent. Sorry at "work" still, getting distracted by life. Excuse incomplete thoughts
August 27 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BUT PB doesnt deny it . . . only without errors. He insists on studying sacred science to correct the errors.
August 27 at 3:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Although, VI seemed more concerned with rationalism than with fideism
August 27 at 3:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley (rationalism is also more of a danger at TAC, as far as I can tell)
August 27 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Boyer Based on Pascal's Penses, it seemed like it was just about the Pope being wrong and talking about Athanasius...
August 27 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger He doesnt grasp that Aquinas has done this already and is smarter than pb in his ability to do so.
August 27 at 4:00pm · Like
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John Boyer Bowing out to go to work. I'll wade through all this later.
August 27 at 4:00pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger AND THAT IT is necessary to develop reason before approaching sacred science: Jesuits: 3 years of latin and greek before 3 years of lit/rhetoric before logic before philosophy before ANY THEOLOGY . . . well i should say metaphysics is followed by sacred Scripture.
August 27 at 4:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick So wait! That's just another distinction we've added/clarified. Necessary for salvation vs necessary for studying Sacred Theology (sorry this just became clear to me as one of the issues we were having...)
August 27 at 4:07pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick (Maybe because half this conversation takes place at unreasonable hours)
August 27 at 4:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger PB is that which happens when theology precedes the other arts \ sciences: a concrete refutation of his position.
August 27 at 4:13pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure **necessary** for metaphysical knowledge without some error.
Have good example.
Plz stnd by.
In mtg.
Rock on.
August 27 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ok. So metaphysical (no clue what we mean by that). But we can have some truths through reason without any error, just it is limited and rare (not all men or all truths)
August 27 at 4:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger WE ACTUALLY can follow aquinas (if wise enough) without error, withoup faith. On our own no chance, these days. PB might grant this.
August 27 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger metaphysics is the study of being as being and of the first cause (God), Lauren.
August 27 at 4:36pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So, I think an example of the kind of admixture of error there would be is something like this: Aristotle knew that God was personal, probably thought God was only one person, however. Thus, there would be an admixture of error.
August 27 at 4:36pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Aristotle knew God was personal?!?
August 27 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't see why not.
August 27 at 4:38pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Evidence of any kind?
August 27 at 4:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger and didn't see his esse = essentia. But, yes. Not sure he had the concept of personal (since his understanding of the eternity of soul wasnt personal)
August 27 at 4:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Knew he had intellect (+ therefore will)?
August 27 at 4:42pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley A person is "an individual substance of a rational nature". Rational nature is defined by possession of intellect. Aristotle knew God had intellect. .: Aristotle knew God was personal.
August 27 at 4:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (even if he didn't state as much explicitly)
August 27 at 4:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Isn't that Thomas's definition, Edward Langley, not Aristotle's?
August 27 at 4:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Curiously my sixth sense perceives some doubt of the proposition PB doesnt really deny (I think) among TACers.
August 27 at 4:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Boethius was loooong after Aristotle, and Aristotle does not speak of persons, does he? And St. Thomas further develops that definition until even the old Catholic Encyclopedia says it is almost entirely different from Boethius's. In fact, of course, "person" is developed via complicated Christian theology.
Aristotle so far as I know, when speaking about what we take to be him speaking about God, never indicates that God has a will or refers to God in any personal way.
August 27 at 4:50pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I was just trying to think of an example, but this is interesting, now.
August 27 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman One would best look to his ethics to see his notion of a personal God.
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I was such a bad TAC student, when you guys start doing this all I can think is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU
Revenge of the Nerds - NERDS!
Clip from Revenge of the Nerds where Ogre and the other football players scream "NERDS!"
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, from what admittedly little we have of Aristotle, he seems to speak of God in remarkably careful and one might say sparse ways.
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Or this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Where in his Ethics?!
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Keep looking, Daniel, cause it's not there.
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, based on lecture notes, he said a lot of sparse things.
August 27 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Keep denying Samantha Cohoe
August 27 at 4:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Tim Cantu: But to me this is also the fun stuff we talk about when we get hammered and party too...dammit.
August 27 at 4:53pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Right, so give us ANY evidence of a personal God in Aristotle, anywhere.
August 27 at 4:53pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha--Don't you know that Aristotle was the only man ever to be reincarnated? He came back as Thomas Aquinas.
August 27 at 4:54pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Do you really need these wild anachronisms to prove your point, guys?
August 27 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Wanted to bounce these examples off you guys. There are two examples. Let me know what you think.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Like I said, it was just the first example that popped into my head.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is fun though.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I vaguely recall stuff at the end of the metaphysics that could be understood to imply a personal God. I don't think that Aristotle had developed that idea though. And I'm too lazy to look it up.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Obviously Aristotle never calls God a person, but he calls Him a living being: « If, then, God is always in that good state in which we sometimes are, this compels our wonder; and if in a better this compels it yet more. And God is in a better state. And life also belongs to God; for the actuality of thought is life, and God is that actuality; and God's self-dependent actuality is life most good and eternal. We say therefore that God is a living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to God; for this is God. » Sounds kind of "personal" in Daniel Lendman's sense.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 6
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Tim Cantu Hammered at a party is the only time I feel the self-confidence to participate in these discussions, other than shouting nerds.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman He's back, though, so I will put it aside for now.
August 27 at 4:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Haha, Joel, that's gold. I'm going to remember that.
August 27 at 4:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Aristotle's prime mover was an individual intellectual being and to that extant personal (though the Latin term wasnt used)
August 27 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Thank you Pater Edmund, that was the quote I was going to look up.
August 27 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, by personal, you just mean "living?"
August 27 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--That's what I was thinking of. But I don't think Aristotle had developed that anywhere close to STA's idea of "person."
August 27 at 4:58pm · Like
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Megan Baird Most of the time I only participate in this thread when I've had a nice glass of single malt scotch or rye whiskey.
August 27 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But He was living, knowing, and willing. What more do we need?
August 27 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am not denying that the notion of person is a real development.
August 27 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Well, the first two anyway. (Per Aristotle)
August 27 at 4:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do we have willing?
August 27 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel beat me.
August 27 at 4:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This thread moves crazy fast
August 27 at 4:59pm · Like
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Joel HF It also has sudden jumps between topics.
August 27 at 5:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Samantha--would you disagree that "The Doll House", "Billy Bud" and Flaubert could easily be dumped from Senior Seminar?
August 27 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu So, how bout them Bears?
August 27 at 5:01pm · Like · 4
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Megan Caughron Reading back up the thread and thinking big pictures and gravely risking initiating a discussion I totally do not want....... Isn't saying that "What the Church says is true is true because the Church says it's true" madly circular? And kind of an insult to God?
August 27 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, I forgot we read those ones. I think Doll House is important, but the others, meh
August 27 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure When I'm not on vacation, or on facebook, I liaise with States and Tribes in the Heartland. The Santee Sioux of Niobrara know God exists by looking at nature. They call God the Great Spirit. He created the stars and the moon and the fish and everything that came forth from the mouth of the Fish. They know God with admixture of error. Now, most of the Tribe became Catholic about 100 years ago. They still believe in the Great Spirit, but they call Him God the Father now, and since they have been taught the Faith, they know Him without admixture of error. They even say they always knew God existed. It's just that now they know God exists without error. So, this shows that you can know God by reason and nature, but you need revelation to know God without error.
August 27 at 5:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I can't remember Billy Bud at all. Did we skip that seminar?
August 27 at 5:04pm · Like
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Megan Baird Billy Budd was a snoozefest. Imminently forgettable.
August 27 at 5:05pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Does the first mover move for a reason? If if does, then that is a final cause, and that is good, and that is the proper object of the will. Therefore etc.
August 27 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwCiQASnw6o
Dallas Is Going Down
Marc Miller, an enthusiastic Buffalo Bills Fan, predicts the outcome of Super Bowl XXVII, then just starts yelling. (Final Score: Dallas 52, Buffalo 17) Clip...
August 27 at 5:05pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Not I! As Henry Zepeda can attest. "Jimmy legs" was my main take away. That and heavy handed tripe about the state of nature.
August 27 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah - there is no talk of God's will in 'stotle. I'm not at all sure what we would mean by speaking of a *personal* God in terms of what we know of his thought.
August 27 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF The Flaubert seminar is what I don't remember.
August 27 at 5:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel-- that argument is just the worst.
August 27 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Funny, brilliant men have made that argument. More fully developed of course, but that is what it is in essence.
August 27 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Flaubert was at DeCaen's house. I think we talked about how weird and disturbing the stories were, and how Madame Bovary was better.
August 27 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Are you really willing to say that the First Mover moves without any purpose or order in mind?
August 27 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Brilliant men have not made that argument to say that Aristotle must have made those extrapolations and inferred a concept that didn't really even exist yet.
August 27 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Oh right. All I remember is the artwork at his house. I've also never read Madame Bovary for some reason.
August 27 at 5:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, as I said above, "I am not denying that the notion of person is a real development."
August 27 at 5:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe eeeeehhhhhh....... make that "hadn't even been explicated yet."
August 27 at 5:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nevertheless, Aristotle new that God to be Living, knowing, and willing.
August 27 at 5:12pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe No. Booo.
August 27 at 5:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And you don't really expect me to recall (or have read) anything from "above," do you?
August 27 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I realize that this is a point of contention among many philosophers, but I also know when I make a good argument, and I did make a good argument. You may not like how it concludes, you may even have reasons aside from your derisive reactions, but I have been studying philosophy and theology at two different graduate institutions and think that I merit the respect of anyone, but especially of one whom, at least up to now, I considered a friend.
August 27 at 5:15pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF My favorite part about Aristotle having a concept of the will is how explicitly he takes up the notion in the Nicomachean Ethics.
August 27 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Here is a second example, and let me know your thoughts.
St. Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception, because of his adherence to Aristotle's moral and metaphysical teaching on the human soul. He said that that Mary was freed from sin after conception because ensoulment takes place after fertilization. So he had metaphysical knowledge but with error.
A further unfolding of revelation by the Church was needed to correct the error. Dogma corrected metaphysics. A body-soul unity comes into existence at conception. New science supports this claim. Under a microscope, identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster cells, not by a division of cells.
Revelation is conveyed by the Church in Her Scripture and dogma, which informs sacred theology, and this is necessary to remove error from reason and metaphysics. (This is different than reading Aristotle and praying and going to Mass.)
August 27 at 5:16pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I see another discussion is taking place. Please look at my examples when you can, and let me know what you think.
August 27 at 5:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Woah, I have to go make dinner, but before I ruin our friendship, Daniel, I was not objecting to the outline of your argument, just your argument as attributed to Aristotle. He doesn't say that stuff, and there isn't any reason to think he would have thought it.
August 27 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What Samantha said. But I hope you know not to take anything I say seriously, Daniel?
August 27 at 5:20pm · Like
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Joel HF "Under a microscope, identical twins are generated by a second soul in a cluster cells, not by a division of cells." Uhhh...scratches head...
August 27 at 5:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I thought my font looked very light-hearted and bantery, but I see I caused offense.
August 27 at 5:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, one more time: it's tangential in the sense that it was brought up as an example, but A) it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal God, and B) Aristotle does not speak of God having a will, or providence, in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his thought.
August 27 at 5:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's very interesting that you can see a soul under a microscope. Who knew.
August 27 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Samantha we believe what the Church teaches because God granted her authority confirmed by miracles and the testimony of saints (by their words, deeds, and blood): this by the gift of Faith strengthened by acts of Faith, also a gift.
August 27 at 5:23pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I thought it was his understanding of "conception" that was the problem. Also Thomas was avoiding the prevalent error of those who claimed Mary was cleansed before conception (which doesn't work because before conception there is no person).
August 27 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I've heard that there is some disagreement amongst Thomists as to what exactly Thomas taught w/r/t the IC.
August 27 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson We need to get some Scotists and Thomists in here to squabble at this point. Summon them!
FIGHT!
August 27 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger not circular.
August 27 at 5:25pm · Like
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Max Summe This thread hasn't had a soundtrack in a good long while Matthew J. Peterson.... what gives?
August 27 at 5:26pm · Like
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Joel HF "Yah, one more time: Aristotle don'" He don' what, Mr. Peterson? Edit: it is clear now.
August 27 at 5:26pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha In honour of the feast day: https://soundcloud.com/wiseblood.../07-eulogy-for-monica
7. Eulogy For Monica
On August 28, 2014, Wiseblood Records will release its inaugural collection of music: Late to Love, by Sam Rocha. "Eulogy for Monica" is the seventh track of that album. Pre-order your copy tod
August 27 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick It's not like we can go on Facebook and look up all his past conversations.
August 27 at 5:27pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Meagan, "what the Church says is true" is theological data about revelation, used in sacred theology, to correct errors in metaphysics, and to further support the reasonability of belief.
This is a lot different than saying knowing God by reason is the beginning of Wisdom.
You can't really know God without error by reason. I know Langley disputes that, but I think that's the truth.
Consider the Native American. They knew God by reason and nature and myth. They knew God without revelation, but with admixture of error.
Even St. Thomas knew metaphysics by reason but admixture of error. Consider his false teaching on the Immaculate Conception was derived from Aristotle's false metaphysical notion of ensoulment.
August 27 at 5:28pm · Like
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Brian Gerrity I'm anticipating this thread soon topping 1,000 comments per day.
August 27 at 5:28pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante ensoulment isn't a metaphysical concept; it is a physical concept
August 27 at 5:32pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe John-- sorry, were you directing your comment at some remark of mine?
August 27 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Is that a yes or a no?
August 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure And BTW, as informed Catholics, how can you claim that your understanding of Dogma didn't inform your reasoning to God? That being the case, why don't you study all of it?
You don't think Aristotle's metapjysics was without error, do you?
August 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But seriously, Daniel, I love you! Come back!
August 27 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Aristotle predicated the essential attributes of person to God but not the name or others, viz. one, thinking, and living.
August 27 at 5:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia JA Escalante I just got home and come to find, as usual, you beat me to it. It is a biological concept, considering the notion of "ensoulment" is in some way the "form" of the living thing.
August 27 at 5:37pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine it's really hard to take you seriously when you can't tell what falls under physics and what falls under metaphysics
August 27 at 5:37pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger yes, Samantha.
August 27 at 5:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, I agree with you about your two points " A) it is very unclear what anyone would mean when they say Aristotle talks about a personal God, and B) Aristotle does not speak of God having a will, or providence, in any serious fashion in the admittedly little we have of his thought."
Though I would not say "very unclear," but "difficult to see," perhaps.
I don't think that my argument concludes such that one must agree with me. It is an historical question, "Did Aristotle think X" and consequently is open to a very limited degree of certitude.
I am content to leave it at that.
August 27 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe THese guys are all being jerks. Why don't I get to be a jerk? No fair.
August 27 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia be a jerk then
August 27 at 5:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Apparently if I'm a jerk I lose friends. I call double standard.
August 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And Daniel Lendman's actual point was entirely valid, in my opinion, and I think everyone else's: he was just picked on a little by jerks for choosing a suspect example.
August 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?
August 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?
August 27 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Furthermore, PB's first example is support for what the other side is saying, that is, the tribe that comes to know God truly, already had a notion of God. Can anyone imagine a tribe not having a (if mixed with error and not fully formed) notion of God?
August 27 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Also, if memory serves, God in Aristotle is in the category of substance....if memory serves. And doesn't God move by final causality alone in Metaphysics 12?
August 27 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you can be my friend (in part because I'm probably WAY bigger of a jerk)
August 27 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oooh it's dinner time.
Taco Tuesday - on a Wednesday!!!!!
August 27 at 5:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't want to be YOUR friend, I want to be Daniel Lendman's friend. Sending you a friend request, though. (who are you?)
August 27 at 5:43pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante yeah Beitia who are you
August 27 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLIerfXuZ4
The Who - Who Are You?
Music video by The Who performing Who Are You?. (C) 1998 Polydor Ltd. (UK)
August 27 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe This is way more fun than making dinner.
August 27 at 5:47pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Or working.
August 27 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF In 1988, however, the Committee report stated that any illegal zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
August 27 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Re the Immaculate Conception--I have no opinion here, nor am I saying that Garrigou-Lagrange is necessarily correct--but this link has some interesting texts from Thomas that suggest that Thomas at the end of his life held that Mary was immaculately conceived: http://taylormarshall.com/.../did-thomas-aquinas-deny...
Did Thomas Aquinas Deny the Immaculate Conception? (Garrigou-Lagrange)
taylormarshall.com
We got fired up the other day in our discussion of Blessed John Duns Scotus and the Immaculate Conception.It seems that I may have been to quick to speak by pas
August 27 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante It's pretty clear I think Thomas always affirmed the basic idea of the doctrine, while denying the "how" account due to his physics
August 27 at 5:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I haven't been paying attention, does Peregrin just hate philosophy and St. Thomas? Is that a fair summary?
August 27 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Peregrine seems to hate TAC, and thinks that philosophy is just a penumbra of revealed theology, pertaining to created things
August 27 at 5:55pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner One does not simply "summarize" The Thread, Sam.
August 27 at 5:55pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF He always affirmed that she was free from original sin at birth, but the Summa fairly explicitly denies the conception bit. Of course, other texts fairly plainly affirm it. Again, I'm no expert, and if Thomas did hold that she wasn't, I wouldn't be bothered.
August 27 at 5:55pm · Edited · Like
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JA Escalante but she wasnt asking about the Thread, just about PB
August 27 at 5:56pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe So, good thing we study theology, too, then, yes?
August 27 at 5:58pm · Like
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Joel HF Particularly TAC, b/c way too much math, too much philosophy and it doesn't start w/ "Here are the doctrines of the church. They, and only they, are the data of theology." Plus I hear TAC lets Protestants in. Ewwwwwww!
August 27 at 5:58pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF That last bit may not * actually * be an accurate representation of his position. (Though I get the feeling it isn't far from that). In any event, TAC doesn't do enough to instruct its students on what the Church teaches and what they must assent to.
August 27 at 6:01pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris "∴" all they have written seems as straw.
August 27 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris JA Escalante i like the way you capitalized the Thread.
August 27 at 6:03pm · Like
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Frank Morris Katherine G, were you the first to capitalize?
August 27 at 6:03pm · Like
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Frank Morris final causality
August 27 at 6:05pm · Like
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JA Escalante its been capitalized for some time, and has its own FB page
August 27 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris An event's final cause is the aim or purpose being served by it.
August 27 at 6:06pm · Like
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Frank Morris final causality of The Thread....
August 27 at 6:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Who am I? I am who .... just finished eating tacos. TAC 00
August 27 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Thread has also taken the first faltering steps toward the horizon of self-consciousness, almost like a new Adam. A digital Adam waking up to himself on the morning of a new era of the world.
August 27 at 6:08pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict By the way I am very disappointed to come back and find that nothing was settled after we quieted down enough for the Peregrine to speak his response a few hours ago.
August 27 at 6:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia The Thread is hive-mind self actualization. The Bootstrapping of world spirit. Jormungandr
August 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Insert the monkey scene from 2001 Space Odyssey.
August 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante The Neverending Thread
August 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe How about we take this in a different direction, say, which TAC class is best? TAC06>>> TAC00, for instance
August 27 at 6:09pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia pansies. you couldn't handle the ostrich
August 27 at 6:10pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante you can't "take" the Thread anywhere
August 27 at 6:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the Thread takes you?
August 27 at 6:11pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't hate TAC, JA, I just think it is flawed because they tolerate an admixture of error when studying philosophy by denying, from its students, dogma and sacred theology from its curriculum. I think it is not being honest: It leads students to believe that they are receiving a truly Catholic liberal education, when they are not.
August 27 at 6:11pm · Like
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Frank Morris Mathew Petterson knows to much.
August 27 at 6:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We don't appropriate the thread. The thread appropriates us.
August 27 at 6:12pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia you see how Peregrott just started this all over again.
August 27 at 6:12pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Do TACers cringe at mention of emphatic statements of what the Church teaches? Could this be what PB takes offense at? Are they overly questioning of doctrine for PB?
August 27 at 6:12pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris golden thread.
August 27 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the golden gnostic thread
August 27 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe hmmm, that might be true. I got here an hour ago feeling very superior to everyone who had spent their afternoon arguing with PB... now look at me..
August 27 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante John, PB wants a body of doctrine (compendized where and in what, exactly?) to serve as the core of the program, with a plain systematic relation to every subject and text in the curriculum.
August 27 at 6:13pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia hang on, Samantha, you're right 6 tacos are better than none
August 27 at 6:14pm · Like
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Frank Morris ostrich tacos.
August 27 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia with no math, JAson
August 27 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Frank, I've been there. it is a dark place
August 27 at 6:14pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris let us be facebook friends mb.
August 27 at 6:15pm · Like
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JA Escalante oh Frank you might not know what you're asking there
August 27 at 6:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia too late HAHAHAHAHA
August 27 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The Heaviest Burden. What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or night, and said to you: "This Neverending Thread, as you live it at present, and have lived it, you must live it once more, and also innumerable times; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and every sigh, and all the unspeakably small and great in this Thread must come to you again, and all in the same series and sequence - and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the trees, and similarly this moment, and I myself. The eternal sand-glass of the Thread will ever be turned once more, and you with it, you speck of dust!" - Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth, and curse the demon that so spoke? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer him: "You are a God, and never did I hear anything so divine!" If that thought acquired power over you as you are, it would transform you, and perhaps crush you; the question with regard to all and everything: "Do you want this once more, and also for innumerable times?" would lie as the heaviest burden upon your activity! Or, how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The Neverending Thread, so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and sealing?
August 27 at 6:16pm · Edited · Like · 5
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JA Escalante Beitia is an elemental spirit, and you have let him into your virtual dwelling
August 27 at 6:16pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris JA, you and me are facebook friends...
August 27 at 6:16pm · Like
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JA Escalante I'm vastly nicer than Beitia
August 27 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Thread has really been the Axis Mundi all along in disguise. It runs through all, and all turns about it.
August 27 at 6:16pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris choke the demon with the thread.
August 27 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante Isak you are rapidly becoming one of my fav FB people
August 27 at 6:17pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante 5000 is in sight...thalassa! thalassa!
August 27 at 6:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- I see what you did there. Isak should write science fiction poetry.
August 27 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris axis mundi............
August 27 at 6:18pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Any minute now the old gods of all the myths will take hold of The Thread at any point, and rotate it divinely about in a circle, thereby creating a Cosmic Conic Section. All things will emanate from that center point in slowly widening concentric circles when seen at a certain point in time, or event. And Zeus shall dangle Hera in chains from one end of The Golden Thread, and we all shall weep for our children.
August 27 at 6:19pm · Like · 6
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Frank Morris metaphysics of the axis mundi and the divine milieu
August 27 at 6:19pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I'm glad you're enjoying my growing madness JA haha
August 27 at 6:21pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris naaaaaaaah the old gods of myth, war-lust and fertility, chance....have never released their hold
August 27 at 6:21pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA pushed this conversation along with a false suggestion. And may it continue until we find the truth about Faith and Reason. I think Aristotle and St. Thomas would want it that way.
August 27 at 6:22pm · Like
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Frank Morris faith is the bridge between reason and the Divine.
August 27 at 6:23pm · Like
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JA Escalante what is the false suggestion, Peregrine?
August 27 at 6:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Is PB the homunculus?
August 27 at 6:23pm · Like
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Frank Morris pb ain't his name.
August 27 at 6:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia okay, SW
August 27 at 6:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oof.... JAson, you're in the bay area, right?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W959czbBJAA
Here We Go Again - OPERATION IVY
Lyrics- It's not the ending Its the beginning The ground is moist and it rained last night Smells like smoke and it smells so clean The sun is shining down l...
August 27 at 6:25pm · Like
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JA Escalante I'm waiting for Peregrine to tell me what my "false suggestion" was.
August 27 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i finally figured out Matthew's joke. TNET must form a circle (or extended a cylinder) and we are all hamsters making it return to the beginning. And we are chasing a hopeless cause, pb. I feel really stupid now.
August 27 at 6:27pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris the final causality isn't hopeless.
August 27 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it does sound like Peregrin's proposed curriculum would be BORING
August 27 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF What do you mean you don't have a dog in this fight? This is a TAC thing, not a Catholic thing.
August 27 at 6:29pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante still waiting
August 27 at 6:29pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris code duelo, JA?
August 27 at 6:30pm · Like
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JA Escalante ....still waiting
August 27 at 6:31pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Though honestly, as has been said, PB's initial questions are interesting. And it is a rare TACer indeed who does not have a laundry list of complaints about the place.
August 27 at 6:31pm · Like · 3
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JA Escalante of course! the problem is that PB simply will not admit when his claims have been refuted, and he then repeats the charges ad nauseam
August 27 at 6:32pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger: Hopeless? Joke?
Maybe, if the return is eternal, it is no longer a return.
Maybe the joke is real, and the real is the joke.
Maybe there is no longer any need for hope, nor for chasing, when you become part of The Neverending Thread.
Don't feel stupid.
Be.
Be wise.
Let the common good of the Thread heal you as part to whole.
August 27 at 6:34pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe OK, but if the complaint is that TAC isn't Catholic enough, then that's weird, but I'm not sure I care.
August 27 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Well Samantha it's not simply a complaint, it's an actual claim about the principles and ratio studiorum of the college
August 27 at 6:37pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante a claim which happens to be false
August 27 at 6:37pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And yet - and yet. The longer one refuses to let go and embrace The Neverending Thread, the more one contributes to its being and growth.
August 27 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure My claims have not been refuted. You and others stated Vat I claims you can know God by reason alone. In fact, you can, but not without admixture of error; as the Native Americans, and even Thomas and Aristotle, can know God by reason alone but not without error. You need an outlay of revelation in dogma and theology to perfect reason.
This begs the question: why does TAC not teach this way, yet claims it presents a truly Catholic liberal education.
IS THIS REASONABLE?
August 27 at 6:38pm · Like
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JA Escalante though some of the things he's saying do point to problems within the program, as almost all of us readily admit
August 27 at 6:38pm · Like
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Megan Baird I have a question - and call me dim-witted - but who is the Final Arbiter of what is truly a "Catholic liberal education"?
August 27 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict MAGISTERIUM
August 27 at 6:40pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger i am
August 27 at 6:40pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Haggard Man, we're going to break 5,000!
August 27 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In a MAGISTERIUM...One MAGISTER...
Coming Soon To A Thread Near You
August 27 at 6:41pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Max Summe The main problem with the curriculum is that it's not all other curriculums simultaneously. That really sucks about it...
August 27 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe You know - maybe we should just only read things written by saints. That'd fix everything.
August 27 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Even St. Thomas could not know God and metaphysics by reason alone, without some error.
You how come you guys say you can?
How come you hate dogma?
August 27 at 6:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Next year people will be giving up The Neverending Thread for Lent.
August 27 at 6:42pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante Peregrine, that's a backpedaling save from your earlier unqualified assertions.
The question isn't admixture of error (which might be quite small, actually), the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him under. And it is, and does. Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level (creator/creature distinction, preeminently; but also things we would never know by reason, but don't necessarily deny otherwise, like the Trinity), but revelation needs- your Church's words, not just mine- metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human science. And the metaphysics it thus uses is relatively self-standing.
August 27 at 6:43pm · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson In the year 2020, the US Bishops will tell American Catholics they must give up The Neverending Thread on all normal Fridays.
August 27 at 6:43pm · Like · 8
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Isak Benedict Peregrine, what would it take to change your mind?
August 27 at 6:43pm · Like
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Megan Baird Ok, the Magisterium defines what is truly a Catholic liberal education. Is Peregrine representing the Magisterium then?
August 27 at 6:43pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure How come you guys don't know the relationship between revelation, dogma and theology -- and how it informs metaphysics?
How come you claim you can know God without error by reason alone, when you don't know this?
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like
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JA Escalante whereas you Peregrine are using the fact of admixture of error, without ever noting whether it is really significant error, to invalidate a relatively self-standing metaphysics and replace it with a "sapiential wisdom" which looks like Fideistic gnosis
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Just askin.
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Pope Peregrine represents nothing. He IS the Magisterium.
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe PB - stop inquisitioning us and ask yourself why you readily assented to... at least 2 different heresies....
August 27 at 6:44pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine come on, you cant even tell the difference between physics and metaphysics, as in the Imm Con discussion! And you're saying *we* have problems with categories?
August 27 at 6:45pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Liam Collins What I want to know is what sort of computer voodoo Edward Langley is doing to compile those stats on this thread.
August 27 at 6:45pm · Unlike · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure Do you guys believe you can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some error?
Please say, yes or no.
August 27 at 6:46pm · Like
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JA Escalante you didn't originally claim "without some error". Just acknowledge your mistakes, PB. It wont be the end of the world.
August 27 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe https://i.imgflip.com/bkcf5.jpg
i.imgflip.com
i.imgflip.com
August 27 at 6:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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JA Escalante and man, next time TAC sends me a donation request I am sending the letter back marked "PAID"
August 27 at 6:47pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger the irony: JA defending (or explaining rather) magisterial teaching to PB.
August 27 at 6:47pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, do you think you can know God or metaphysics by reason alone, always without error.
Yes or no?
August 27 at 6:48pm · Like
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Megan Baird I can't look away from this thread...
August 27 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Fine, I'll say it. Yes, I believe one can know God and metaphysics by reason alone without some error. All that means is I say it's possible.
August 27 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure St Thomas and the Church state you cannot know God and metaphysics by reason alone, always without error.
What say you, JA?
August 27 at 6:49pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure What say you Daniel?
August 27 at 6:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No they don't.
August 27 at 6:50pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure What say you, Mr. Langley, Mr. Smarty-pants?
August 27 at 6:50pm · Like
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Megan Baird I'd like to see citation for that, Peregrine.
August 27 at 6:50pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine, that's not the issue, dear man. The issue is whether the error (if such is always necessary, and it's not clear that it is; see "easily") is substantially vitiating, or not. I have already given the orthodox account above. It is not necessarily vitiating enough to render metaphysics impossible without revelation.
August 27 at 6:50pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Why are you mocking Mr. Langley's intelligence, Peregrine?
August 27 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante To reiterate:
The question isn't admixture of error (which might be quite small, actually), the question is whether metaphysics is relatively independent and mostly gets it right about God in the formalities it is able to consider Him under. And it is, and does. Where revelation secures metaphysics is in the very highest principial level (creator/creature distinction, preeminently; but also things we would never know by reason, but don't necessarily deny otherwise, like the Trinity), but revelation needs- your Church's words, not just mine- metaphysics to elaborate itself as a human science
August 27 at 6:51pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF Out of curiosity, what metaphysical error are you claiming St Thomas made? Because all I recall are being pointed out thus far are errors either of physical science or theology proper, not metaphysics.
August 27 at 6:52pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure What say you?
Can you know God and metaphysics by reason alone, always without error?
The Church says no.
St. Thomas' error on the Immaculate Conception demonstrates "no".
This being the case, why do you not teach dogma at TAC?
Is that reasonable?
What say you?
August 27 at 6:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict ^ Bailiff, club this man. ^
August 27 at 6:52pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF What would teaching dogma look like? I'm still not clear on how sophomore theology, or senior theology, just to take two examples, fail to qualify.
August 27 at 6:54pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante but discussing this idiosyncratic Nouvelle Theologie on steroids has been illuminating in certain respects
August 27 at 6:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger THAT is i think the point he will give in on, JA. viz. What do we get wrong following STA in his metaphysics?
August 27 at 6:57pm · Edited · Like
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Katie Duda Out of curiosity how do you understand Thomas's error on the immaculate conception?
August 27 at 6:55pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure JA, my good man, if that is your position, then you are ok with error in knowledge, which is crass.
August 27 at 6:56pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Katie, see above.
August 27 at 6:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Answer the Duda, Peregrott
August 27 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia because it was pointed out, AGAIN, earlier that St. Thomas re IC is not a metaphysical error
August 27 at 6:58pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia just sayin
August 27 at 6:58pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What you pointed to above were problems w/ Thomas's understanding of physical science, or at most natural philosophy. One could also argue that Thomas also erred theologically in failing to understand Scripture and Tradition. But, at least as far as I can see, Thomas's metaphysical notions have nothing to do with why he didn't accept the immaculate conception.
August 27 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so to answer "what say you?"
I say to you, Scott, that you question makes no sense because you have no idea what metaphysics is, since you make such a glaringly STUPID category error
August 27 at 7:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Let me recap. JA et al argue that reason alone is necessary for sacred theology. Church teaches that revelation is necessary to preserve reason from error about God and metaphysics. Escalante does not know how Church teaches revelation in Her dogmas and sacred theology.
What's wrong with this picture?
August 27 at 7:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia unless by "metaphysics" you mean everything that you haven't defined away as "sacred theology" in which case you are a blathering idiot
August 27 at 7:01pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Who's argued that reason alone is necessary for sacred theology? I think they've denied it.
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia No one ever said "reason alone"
Straw man
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (takes drink)
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia for realz, I'm at home now
August 27 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante Peregrine why don't you go ahead and find somewhere where I've said what you attribute to me.
August 27 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel I have one more hour at work...
August 27 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Thomas Quackenbush I feel like I've never seen any of thing things Peregrine claims except in his own posts. Perhaps he himself thinks these things, and hates himself for it, and is projecting on us as a coping mechanism...
August 27 at 7:03pm · Like · 4
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JA Escalante Really Peregrine, go ahead and find somewhere where I've said that
August 27 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF People (and the Church) have claimed that God can be known with certainty by reason alone. You do see that this is not the same as saying that reason alone suffices for Sacred Theology?
August 27 at 7:05pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe The only reason we are still all in this thread is the length of this thread.
The thread has become the cause of the thread.
Thus, this thread participates in divinity, and thus all of us who participate in this thread also participate in divinity.
August 27 at 7:06pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer The position that disparages the study of metaphysics is ultimately Protestant and/or Kantian. Cf Regansburg Address
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia unfortunately it is a manichean divinity, and we're on the wrong side of it
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like
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JA Escalante it's certainly not true that Protestantism disparages metaphysics
August 27 at 7:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Max Summe But still, we must press on, as participation in opposition is better than ceasing to be....
August 27 at 7:07pm · Like
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JA Escalante ^actually that's false; I'm a Calvinist
August 27 at 7:08pm · Like
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John Boyer This thread is not an imitation of the divine. It's an imitation of twitter where everyone basically follows everyone else.
August 27 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel I am pretty sure that no body has claimed that reason alone is necessary for theology. Earlier you objected to the claim that it was possible to have knowledge of God by reason alone, contrary to the magisterial pontifications of the pre and post conciliar church. But to suggest that the claim was reason alone was sufficient for theology is crass disrespect for the positions held
August 27 at 7:08pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia hence the "or" put up your claws
August 27 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^and poor reading skillz
August 27 at 7:09pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger In his defense, his argumentum ab ignorantia seems invincible. He doesnt know what metaphysics or metaphor are.
August 27 at 7:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia http://massappeal.com/.../thug-life-knuckles-jason...
massappeal.com
massappeal.com
August 27 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or syllogism or the difference between some and all or.....
August 27 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure We must conclude that TAC misleads, with crass ignorance.
August 27 at 7:12pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Is it possible to know cause & effect without the gift of revelation?
August 27 at 7:13pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe PB is too hopped up on all the attention he's getting in this thread to read and respond to things that have ACTUALLY BEEN SAID.
August 27 at 7:13pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Dunkel Is it possible to know of the division of mover and of moved in beings in motion?
August 27 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Conclude, Scott? Like the conclusion of a metaphor?
August 27 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Facebook is like an irresponsible bartender. If they were looking at this thread, we all would have been cut off by now.
August 27 at 7:14pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'm just waiting for Langley to recalculate the totals. I've got to be pushing a grand by now
August 27 at 7:15pm · Like
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Max Summe wait what there are totals by contributor?
August 27 at 7:15pm · Like
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John Boyer Of course. *Lights match, sets paper on fire. Repeats*
August 27 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Oh yeah.
August 27 at 7:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia waaaay back pre 3500
August 27 at 7:16pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Catechism of the Catholic Church
II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD
31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.
32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.
As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7
And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8
33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.
34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10
35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
August 27 at 7:17pm · Edited · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger seriously, Beitia has had me lol more the last two days than the last 4 years from things read on fb.
August 27 at 7:17pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe Aaron Dunkel nice catechism quote, but you need to quote from the Magisterium
August 27 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe or the Deposit of Faith. That is also acceptable...
August 27 at 7:19pm · Like
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John Boyer Unless you have a Humean epistemology leading to an event ontology, in which case you may think you know cause and effect, but you are wrong. Substance ontology and power model of causality FTW.
August 27 at 7:19pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Aaron, he already heretically denied VI
August 27 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel I will now quote from the MYSTERIUM: "blah blah blah blah"
August 27 at 7:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia quote from the Imperium
August 27 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel "we, who are about to die, salute you"....is that what you are looking for?
August 27 at 7:20pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I was thinking "Luke, I'm your father" but whatever
August 27 at 7:20pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict MB, I said "reason alone," but I was being reactionary and provocative. I shall avoid this. It clearly does more harm than good.
August 27 at 7:22pm · Like
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Megan Baird "Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant"
August 27 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer And now for something completely different: http://youtu.be/jT6i1kw4rEQ
VIDEO - Dumbass Manages to Set Himself on Fire During Ice Bucket Challenge
(Gawker.com) - If you had to imagine the platonic form of a failed ALS Ice Bucket Challenge, it would probably involve a guy in camo cargo pants and an Ameri...
August 27 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Isak, it really makes no difference, IMHO. I'm just here for the lolz anyway
August 27 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird This Thread really does need to be immortalized somehow.
August 27 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict PB: "We must conclude that TAC misleads, with crass ignorance."
Peregrine, I consider that a slap in the face with your glove. I accept your challenge and insist you choose your weapons. Put up, or shut up.
August 27 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh don't take him seriously (he's on the spectrum)
August 27 at 7:24pm · Like
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Megan Baird I'd again like to see citations for Peregrine's assertions. Otherwise it's just "blah blah blah."
August 27 at 7:25pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante ^really not appropriate for an alumni thread, like really not
August 27 at 7:25pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante you should remove it
August 27 at 7:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yeah, I'm old and prudish, I'm going to second that
August 27 at 7:26pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger mb, he is NOT an heretic. As with faith, reason is PREREQUISITE.
August 27 at 7:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia okay, material heretic
August 27 at 7:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The spectrum of what, MB?
August 27 at 7:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Get rid of that ear garbage
August 27 at 7:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum
Autism spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
The autism spectrum or autistic spectrum describes a range of conditions classified as neurodevelopmental disorders in the fifth revision of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5th edition (DSM-5). The DSM-5, published in 2013, redefined the a…
August 27 at 7:28pm · Like
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Max Summe Aaron Dunkel - WTF was that..............................
August 27 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It's another of my ways of being offensive, Isak
August 27 at 7:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i now wish i could read his comments. "Crass ignorance" eminating from the fence of those teeth. The irony
August 27 at 7:29pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel it was nothing.....mostly an hilarious, but terribly imprudent music video
August 27 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict He's not saying anything worth hearing, Mr. Ruplinger. Take it as a badge of honor I suppose.
August 27 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure At TAC, the story goes, the go from class to class,
Their faith is in the seminar where ignorance is crass...
August 27 at 7:30pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel we will forget it ever happened
August 27 at 7:30pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Ah yes, my friends, lose an argument by denying dogma, embrace error, and run.
August 27 at 7:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict My mind is boggled.
August 27 at 7:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what dogma have I denied, seriously?
August 27 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF That is what you've been doing, Peregrine, yes.
August 27 at 7:33pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and seriously, "run" that hasn't happened
August 27 at 7:33pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict We have denied no dogma, embraced no error, and done the opposite of run. What planet are you on, you darling cretin?
August 27 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Magisterius V, the most repetitive assertion filled planet in the galaxy
August 27 at 7:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Again, Peregrine, I ask for proof of your assertions. You can't simply throw out inflammatory & accusatory comments without backing them up. Text, verse, and volume, please.
August 27 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante oh yes he can
August 27 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 3
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JA Escalante trust me
August 27 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Megan Baird Okay, strike that: he CAN but he shouldn't. Poor form.
August 27 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia JAson, you've been here since the beginning. I'm raising a glass for you right now
August 27 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure If knowledge of metaphysics and God by reason alone is not possible without error, and the Church provides a remedy in Her dogma and theology, why does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum?
Why does the college teach that metaphysics is necessary for a full development of theology, when the opposite is true -- metaphysics can only be freed from error by theology informed by dogma.
Why did TAC establish its curriculum on this false notion?
Is this because TAC adheres to Liberalism instead of the truly Catholic liberal arts?
Or was it because the founders of the college were reactionary?
August 27 at 7:40pm · Like
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John Boyer YES! You uncovered the truth. TAC was established by modernists who cling to the heresy of Americanism and that Masonic invention of Vatican II.
August 27 at 7:41pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia Uhm, Scott, "metaphysics is necessary for a full development of theology"
and
"Metaphysics can only be freed from error by theology"
are not contradictory
August 27 at 7:41pm · Like · 6
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Peregrine Bonaventure Megan Baird, what assertion? That Thomas erred in metaphysics? Or that TAC errs in its understanding of Faith and Reason?
August 27 at 7:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where did St. Thomas err in metaphysics?
August 27 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In 2020 the bishops will allow children under seven who can read, as well as the old and infirm, to continue to use the Thread on Fridays. But all others will be encouraged to abstain.
August 27 at 7:42pm · Like · 9
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John Boyer The smell of sulfur greets you as you approach the campus, a sign of the hellfire which lurks behind the gates of the campus.
August 27 at 7:42pm · Unlike · 5
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Megan Baird Peregrine: I guess I'm not clear on how TAC does not "allow" the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum.
August 27 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia See the peregrine fly from my questions...... chicken really
August 27 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Peregrine, are you a traditionalist? Just wondering...
August 27 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^NO^
August 27 at 7:43pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia he isn't. Trust me
August 27 at 7:43pm · Like
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Megan Baird Thomas Aquinas is called the Angelic doctor due to his grasp on sacred theology... and we devote considerable time to studying his work (to say nothing about other doctors of the Church) so, Peregrine, I'm really not seeing your point.
August 27 at 7:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer I guess my University is bad because it now requires taking philosophy before theology.
August 27 at 7:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure Uhm, Michael, mr smartest man in the room, who said these were contradictory?
I just said TAC errs by denying, in principle and practice, that metaphysics without relevation leads to error about God.
August 27 at 7:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you did, dumbass
August 27 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and I quote "THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE"
August 27 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick *cough* Scotis was wrong about the IC also *cough*
August 27 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict PB: "why does TAC remain so crass by not allowing the Church's dogma and theology into its curriculum?"
This is utter garbage, and anyone with half a brain can see that just by virtue of the fact that TAC students spend TWO FULL YEARS reading Thomas Aquinas himself (THE Doctor of the Church!), TAC as a school does not merely allow the Church's dogma into its curriculum, it wholly supports it. It gives Thomas THE position of importance.
The fact that you cannot even grant a modicum of respect to this argument or to the school tells me that you are a willfully ignorant man.
August 27 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick CUA requires a year of philosophy too! And a semester of theology which may be done either semester
August 27 at 7:46pm · Like
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Katie Duda So. Flogiston...
August 27 at 7:47pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger pope pb excommunicates neopalagian meanies.
August 27 at 7:47pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Peregrine, can you please enumerate the errors which Metaphysics reaches without revelation? Clearly enumerate them. Otherwise this shall continue to be a thread full of assertion, counter-assertion, snark, snark, snark, rinse repeat....not that I'm not enjoying the jokes, but seriously, can you please make a list of the errors which are admixed with the truth?
August 27 at 7:47pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia don't derail this Katie, I finally got him to answer me
August 27 at 7:47pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Hey nonny nonny and a ha-cha-cha
August 27 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick As an aside, this thread has made my friend list sky rocket. . .
August 27 at 7:49pm · Like · 5
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Peregrine Bonaventure Megan, TAC does not provide an outlay of the Church's theology informed by dogma. In fact, almost all of its students to not even know what this means. On the contrary, TACs Charter asserts that metaphysics is necessary for the full development of theology. The curriculum of TAC is established on this false claim. This claim is false because metaphysics and knowledge of God is not without admixture of error by reason alone, but only by revelation; hence, the need for an outlay of the Church's dogmatic theology.
An example: Thomas and Aristotle erred in metaphysical understanding of the cause of the ensoulment, leading Thomas to argue against the Immaculate Conception.
August 27 at 7:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Everyone is making friends except Peregrine.
August 27 at 7:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the cause of ensoulment is STILL biological, Scott
August 27 at 7:50pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Dunkel Peregrine, do you know whence comes Dogma?
August 27 at 7:51pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris JA Escalante i think Peregrine Bonaventure just identified the premise of which he objects.
August 27 at 7:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia therefore, your example is NOT an example
August 27 at 7:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia But yet another glaring category error
August 27 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel You sound similar to somebody who proposes the outlawing of butchering cattle because you can buy beef at the grocery store.
August 27 at 7:53pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Frank Morris Theology can not be fully developed.
August 27 at 7:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nice....
August 27 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure John Boyer, I just need to list one. Aristotle erred in his notion of ensoulment. Thomas erred on this point also. This was a moral and metaphysical question about the formal unity of man. This error was the reason why Thomas and the Dominicans denied the Immaculate Conception.
There are many examples.
The Church teaches that God and metaphysics cannot be known by reason alone without admixture of error.
The Church sacred and dogmatic theology, informed by revelation, purges metaphysics of error.
This is why TAC cannot rest on the claim that metaphysics and reason alone bring the full development of theology. This is why TAC must provide instruction of dogmatic theology, in order for it not to participate in crass ignorance.
Gotta run, people.
I love TAC.
What, 5000 posts now?
9000
What say you?
August 27 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i need to explain my above statement. PB doesnt deny V I as far as i can tell. The real problem is that to be an heretic, you have to understand 2 things: THAT you reject an article; and at least imprecisely at least what that article means. But on both counts, it is doubtful in pb's case. He has shown he cannot grasp words all the while railing against the need for reason to have Faith.
August 27 at 7:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I say that the denial of the Immaculate Conception was BIOLOGICAL
August 27 at 7:58pm · Like
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Frank Morris i think pb is right.
August 27 at 7:59pm · Like
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Katie Duda Does it matter if Thomas erred? Does that negate the necessity of metaphysics in explicating divine revelation?
August 27 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris immaculate conception is infallible.
August 27 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Yes, to him, no to the rest of us. The IC is not a metaphysical point. It is a theological point, the repudiation of which was biological
August 27 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda No. IC is not infallible. It is true.
August 27 at 8:01pm · Like
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Frank Morris IC was when the magesterium declared it's infallibility...or maybe I'm wrong.
August 27 at 8:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia True, but saying that women don't have souls until X days after conception is a biological point, that was factually wrong.
Thought experiment: what if biology showed that DNA didn't show up until day 14 after implantation? then what?
August 27 at 8:01pm · Like
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Katie Duda Of course. I'm word quibbling.
August 27 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris Katie, please help me...was IC the only time the magesterium declared itself infallible.
August 27 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris is the truth infallible?
August 27 at 8:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Who is this Scott Weinberg? What is he like in person? I can't believe the things I'm reading, and I can't believe he's serious. Sometimes he says things that make me think I'm dealing with a human being. Am I?
August 27 at 8:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott-bot (as I posted 4800 comments ago)
August 27 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Frank - only twice did the Pope speak 100% infallibly. The Immaculate Conception, and Mary's Assumption body and soul into Heaven.
August 27 at 8:05pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Dunkel I believe the other ex cathedra papal proclamation was the doctrine of the Assumption of the BVM
August 27 at 8:05pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Frank Morris thanks Isak Benedict
August 27 at 8:06pm · Like
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Katie Duda I don't understand the question. I meant only to say that infallible is a word meaning incapable of error. A statement is not infallible but the body declaring it might be
August 27 at 8:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia quibbling.... are you back in town?
August 27 at 8:06pm · Like
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Frank Morris Isak helped moi...no problem with quibbles.
August 27 at 8:07pm · Like
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Katie Duda Beitia. Yes! Mr. Morris. Apologies. I distracted from your question
August 27 at 8:09pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ok so we can't read anyone that was ever wrong about any matter is what I'm getting out of this.
August 27 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I still owe you a drink, and I'd still like to read your dis....
August 27 at 8:11pm · Like
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Frank Morris lauren, pope benedict started his letter on faith with nietzsche...you tell me.
August 27 at 8:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia what about Pope Peregrott?
August 27 at 8:12pm · Like
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Frank Morris Michael Beitia that was a german joke...
August 27 at 8:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Correct, Lauren. That is the way to madness. Everyone is wrong except Pope Grottburg.
August 27 at 8:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pastor Aeternus indicates a much broader range of infallibility: when he DEFINES a matter of Faith to the whole Church as the supreme teacher.
August 27 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger JPII infallibly taught on abortion and women priests (and one other matter i forget)
August 27 at 8:16pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ahhh makes sense. So what is his understanding of the Immaculate Conception? Wait a second! Wasn't the reason it took so long to define because we had to make it "understandablish" aka it couldn't be a contradiction. (People during Thomas' time - and before- were saying it happened before conception which doesn't work since there was no human nature at that time) The IC took the Church almost 2000 years to define, it doesn't work well as an example for anything.
August 27 at 8:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger no it doesnt
August 27 at 8:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger HUGE recent slew of articles on whether canonizations are infallible.
August 27 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris i think it's an example that faith, is more pleasing to God than anything else.
August 27 at 8:21pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John - there are disagreements about whether or not those instances meet all of the qualifications necessary for a teaching to be considered infallible. The two I mentioned are the only ones that meet every single criterion (as far as I know!)
August 27 at 8:21pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I"m out
August 27 at 8:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Obviously, for example, canonization is considered infallible too, but not (I think) to the same degree. (Maybe "degree" is the wrong word to use there?)
August 27 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Grace perfecting nature does not mean reading Aristotle in a prayerful posture, as Daniel says.
It means reading metaphysics in light of the dogmatic theology of the Church informed by revelation.
So, a Catholic curriculum which includes "theology" but not the dogmatic theology of the Church, is fraudulent.
August 27 at 8:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger that you know. I summarized the criteria. Its in Pastor Aeternus: only 3, maybe 4, criteria. But there is debate and need for clarification.
August 27 at 8:26pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda One thing. It seems to me a tacit lesson of the curriculum is the capability of human error in all sciences. Nonetheless, the human mind is also capable to recognize errors. Theology has of course a greater authority, but aquinas didn't err because he refused to a submit to that authority.
August 27 at 8:28pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Frank Morris i read aristotle's metaphysics...very redundant.
August 27 at 8:28pm · Like
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Frank Morris but Katie, at the end, it was all straw...accept the song of songs.
August 27 at 8:29pm · Like
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Frank Morris little gazelles. prancing in the light of stars...................
August 27 at 8:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger a major long held objection in regard to canonization is that it doesnt involve doctrine but is judgement of a contingent matter. Doesnt mean it shouldnt be held de fide without very serious reasons. And then this is only the opinion of the Roman school. Let me be clear that I have no reason at all to doubt any canonization under the rules of Urban VIII but since their removal some Catholics (not just trads) have been troubled by particular canonizations.
August 27 at 8:41pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John-- what's the consensus view at this point? I'd find it a bit easier to be Catholic if I didn't have to believe in all canonizations de fide.
August 27 at 8:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Peregrin-- what specifically do you propose TAC should add to the curriculum, so as to teach "dogmatic theology?"
August 27 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger the old are very secure. I didnt have doubt til about a month ago. Its ok to hold a doubt imo. I have wavered a bit. I have 4 other reasons too. I have heard some would leave the church recently.
August 27 at 8:45pm · Like
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Mike Potemra I think, at this point, we need to move into the "historical-critical period" of this thread. I propose, therefore, that "Peregrine Bonaventure" was not an actual person, but a redactor's combination of three or four different sources that existed at the beginning of the thread.
August 27 at 8:46pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Mike- Nice try. By definition, TACers don't know how to apply the historical-critical method.
August 27 at 8:48pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger i dont know the consensus. The majority view is, i believe, that they are infallible. But this position itself is not infallible. If u follow.
August 27 at 8:48pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Frank Morris Peregrine Bonaventure your serve...
August 27 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe John,I do, thanks.
August 27 at 8:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz probably knows if there are any authoritative pronouncements on the infallibility of canonizations. I've was taught that they are infallible but I don't know the justification for that.
August 27 at 8:54pm · Like · 1
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Mike Potemra heh, heh, Samantha! I went to the Catholic University of America in D.C., and we weren't taught anything BUT the historical-critical method. (And, oh yeah, social justice. Because Democrats LOL.)
August 27 at 8:55pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley All canonization indicates, however, is that this person was an example of "heroic virtue". It doesn't imply anything about the appropriateness of imitating their particular actions or about the truth of their intellectual positions.
August 27 at 8:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley This is interesting, but hardly definitive: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Beatification and Canonization
www.newadvent.org
According to some writers the origin in the Catholic Church is to be traced back to the ancient pagan apotheosis
August 27 at 8:57pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
John Ruplinger definitions. definitions. What is heroic virtue? That is a problem these days.
August 27 at 8:59pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I guess I'm thinking of cases where the canonizations didn't follow any particular display of evidence but were made for pretty clearly political reasons, Thomas Becket for instance.
August 27 at 9:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, there are lots of saints I don't like, so it's petty, too.
August 27 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well, I don't think any amount of evidence can ever provide the degree of certitude required.
August 27 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris miracles can be like that.
August 27 at 9:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is, it seems to me that it is impossible in principle (excluding a universal revelation from God) to provide enough evidence to convince each person in the world that person X really is in heaven from that evidence alone. Consequently, there will always be a gap between the evidence the Church presents for a person's sanctity and the certitude implied by her judgment on the matter.
I think the evidence (miracles, etc.) relate to canonization the way dialectical arguments about principles relates to intellectus of them (if that analogy makes any sense).
August 27 at 9:03pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris ok....mystery is part of this game. but so is free will. thanks for this thread. i needed a break.
August 27 at 9:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Edward, thanks for the link. And, Samantha, i would be cautious about your seemingly human objections. St. Neri was entirely opposed to Ignatius in life but both are in heaven now.
August 27 at 9:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, well, they aren't just *seemingly* human objections. Human objections are the only kind I make.
August 27 at 9:16pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Miracles ARE the strongest evidence. When the definition of miracle changes . . . is problem.
August 27 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris a miracle defies reason.
August 27 at 9:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's actually interesting that St. Thomas denies that a miracle violates the natural order, since the natural order of things is for all creatures to obey the will of God.
August 27 at 9:19pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley As St. Augustine puts it, miracles violate the "manifest order of causes"
August 27 at 9:20pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger one of my favorite saints is st. Philomena: no historical record, lots of miracles (Piur IX was personally healed.)
August 27 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF The majority view is canonization is infallible, but with a strong minority dissent. Lots has been written on the matter recently. I don't follow the rationale of the majority view, and find the minority position convincing, personally. But as a Catholic one would still owe obsequium religiosum, so practically speaking there isn't all that much difference.
August 27 at 9:23pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger right and it is a matter of precept too which the linked article reminded me of. (That is a matter of obedience.)
August 27 at 9:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I am so impressed by the intelligence and kindness of so many people on this thread. This is quite nice.
August 27 at 9:26pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Sometimes I just sit back and read as the comments pop up. Lovely!
August 27 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure How droll, Edward Langley. Miracles, though reasonable, can only be believed in faith.
August 27 at 9:29pm · Like
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Adrw Lng The comments are a roller coaster of intelligence and kindness and inanity and error, but the sheer quantity is what continues to amaze me
August 27 at 9:31pm · Like · 4
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Church's dogmatic theology is informed by revelation. It is wonderful to study under a trained theologian. TAC should avail students to this, if only as an intro, to help them at least see how faith and reason, metaphysics and faith work together academically. If TAC did this a bit better, truly you would conquer the world. But till then, something is stopping you.
Being stopped is not a good thing to be.
We can discuss more practical applications in a bit.
August 27 at 9:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You know what would be droll, Edward? If there were some way of figuring out, not the number of comments or quantity of words, but the physical length of The Thread. I realize, since it is Threadness itself, that such a question is silly. But maybe if it could be printed out on a roll of paper, we might be able to approximate its near-infinite nature?
August 27 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick A roll of toilet paper?
August 27 at 9:35pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict No - toilet paper is too noble for the stomping grounds of the Peregrine.
August 27 at 9:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Toilet paper has a use.
August 27 at 9:36pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict In all seriousness, I was thinking a roll of teletype paper, like Kerouac's "On The Road."
August 27 at 9:37pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure On second thought, dogmatic theology might be a bit above you guys.
August 27 at 9:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict A wise man speaks because he has something to say, Bonaventure. A fool, because he has to say something. Do you feel better after that little piece of condescension?
August 27 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Sometimes humor is necessary to keep spirits alive and to keep plowing through life.
August 27 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Tis not condescension, but a bit of practical wisdom. Trust me.
August 27 at 9:46pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Along the same lines, Isak, I was just wondering how many hours a dramatic reading of this thread would be.
August 27 at 9:46pm · Like · 2
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Peregrine Bonaventure How many TACers does it take to change a light bulb?
August 27 at 9:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger this would be a very short thread if composed by wise men, Isak.
August 27 at 9:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele Though it might be better as an opera, then we could have multiple parts going at once.
August 27 at 9:47pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Nina - a dramatic reading would be magnificent. I propose we cast The Thread with actors of distinctive voice. I don't know about you guys, but I'm hearing Alan Rickman in my head as Peregrine Bonaventure.
August 27 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I don't trust you as far as I could throw you, PB.
August 27 at 9:49pm · Like
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Nina Rachele hmm, a good suggestion. trying to think of who for Beitia...
August 27 at 9:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Jack Nicholson as Michael Beitia.
August 27 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure Freshman theology should include an intro to dogmatic theology, because revelation is not just the Bible, but the Bible and tradition informing the Church's dogmatic theology. Then would be reading the Bible in context, as a formal unity, not just as a book. This would be the first fix.
August 27 at 9:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Al Pacino as Josh Kenz.
August 27 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure You could never throw me Isak. But trust is not impossible.
August 27 at 9:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger OUCH. and ouch
August 27 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Did you just call yourself fat? Haha
August 27 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Great. Any examples or explanations of what such an intro would be?
August 27 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure You could throw me Isak, so trust me too.
August 27 at 9:54pm · Like
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Nina Rachele i was thinking, it has to be an American. Peterson should be Morgan Freeman
August 27 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wait - so I could never throw you, but I could also throw you? The man is a schizophrenic. Someone please get him some help!
August 27 at 9:55pm · Like
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Joel HF I see PB more as a Wallace Shawn type, Isak.
August 27 at 9:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, you could start with the Church's dogmatic theology on the Immaculate Conception. This is original source material. You could add this to when you read the Book of Revelation or the Wisdom Books. That would be very easy and good.
August 27 at 9:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That's brilliant, Bonaventure. Someone give this man a cigar.
August 27 at 9:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i see nothing. Drawing a complete blank.
August 27 at 9:58pm · Like
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Joel HF And Matthew J. Peterson more as a Jeff Bridges character.
August 27 at 9:58pm · Like · 3
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Peregrine Bonaventure You could add the dogmatic theology on faith and reason too, all original source, during the Wisdom books, or even during the Pentateuch. This would be great, fun and easy to do. There is an ongoing dialogue between the two traditions. Dogma supports and perfects it.
August 27 at 9:58pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Thank you Isak.
August 27 at 9:59pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure But call me Peregrine.
August 27 at 10:00pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Jeff Bridges! that is a good idea, but I really think someone should be Morgan Freeman...
August 27 at 10:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You're incredible, Peregrine. May I peel you a grape?
August 27 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Perhaps Your Excellency requires a footstool? I would offer my own back, but it is too unworthy for Your Wisdom to rest his superior feet upon.
August 27 at 10:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Jug jug.
August 27 at 10:07pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Throw me Isak.
August 27 at 10:10pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Reading Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists do.
August 27 at 10:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Put on your fighting trousers, Scott.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRTB-FTMdk
Fighting Trousers - Professor Elemental
you can now follow us on twitter Moog_Peculiana prof_elemental www.professorelemental.com The first singe from professor elemental's ep: the indifference eng...
August 27 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I don't like your tweed, sir.
August 27 at 10:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'll settle for Sam Elliott playing the Big Lebowski/Thread narrator.
August 27 at 10:14pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews Dear heavens this thread has looped around and we're back at the beginning.
August 27 at 10:15pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What's wrong with reading the Bible as literature?
August 27 at 10:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict There is no beginning, Bekah. The Threadness is without limit.
August 27 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz Under 5,000 comments? Nope. I don't get up in the morning for less than 7k
August 27 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Not even for the tantalizing smell of some good ol' home-cooked holistic sacred theology?
August 27 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - the voice choices weren't insults. Those actors have amazing, distinctive voices.
August 27 at 10:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia bullshit on your Jack Nicholson....too tall
August 27 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Perescott: failure to make distinctions is what dumb people do
August 27 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia good to be back
August 27 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia unless it is "one flew over" Jack. I'll take that
August 27 at 10:39pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele sixteen more til 5000 let's break out the fireworks
August 27 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I was thinking One Flew Over, actually.
August 27 at 10:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah shucks, and I just inter-met you
August 27 at 10:40pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Welcome home Beitia
August 27 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I am disappointed...got back from work, and you are short of 5000....you lazy post padders
August 27 at 10:41pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict Although I think the tall factor would not matter for a radio drama, Michael
August 27 at 10:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I want to hear whatever harebrained theory PB has about reading/not reading the Bible as a piece of magnificent literature.
August 27 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland So close! Be kind, children.
August 27 at 10:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Kind? mmm.... nope
August 27 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Hey Kenz.... talk to me when you crack the top five
August 27 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Is everyone waiting to jump on 5000?
August 27 at 10:46pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I think so...
August 27 at 10:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Probably.. I missed 4000 by one today so screw it, I'm not trying again
August 27 at 10:46pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I must be cruel only to be kind.
August 27 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I think you got it, Beetiea.
August 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Is "I think so" worse than "at"
August 27 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, it was you
August 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger nope
August 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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Nina Rachele haha, congrats mr. beitia you are the winner
August 27 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Do I get a pony? I've always wanted a pony
August 27 at 10:48pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland "I'm not trying again..."
August 27 at 10:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict http://1001bottlesofbeer.com/.../04/812-Haywards-5000.jpg
1001bottlesofbeer.com
1001bottlesofbeer.com
August 27 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele no, pretty sure it was you
August 27 at 10:48pm · Like
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Nina Rachele anyway, doesn't matter.... now that we've reached 5000 I can sleep comfortably.
August 27 at 10:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia apparently so can everyone else.
August 27 at 10:54pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Can you imagine freshmen reading about the immaculate Conception! We might as well jump to the Trinity! Also Freshmen theology comes from St Augustine's advice to familiarize once self with scripture before embarking deeper into theology. Also part of the point is teaching us sola scriptura doesn't work and we come out of freshmen year appreciating that we do need the teaching Church.
August 27 at 10:55pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Commenting on this thread is starting to feel like fighting your way to the very front of a train that's hurtling towards a cliff. And infinity is over the edge.
August 27 at 10:55pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Lauren - exactly. You are taking much more seriously than I that latest grand insanity from Pope Venturegrine.
August 27 at 10:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Lauren you're so right. I came to TAC as an atheist, who had read the Bible (as a reference) several times. It is an underlying, like counting is to arithmetic
August 27 at 10:57pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well, I thought I would try. Listening to freshmen discuss scripture was hard enough... The immaculate conception would have been suicidal.
August 27 at 10:58pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What you said.
August 27 at 10:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and the funny thing is, one can have the truths of the faith presented to them, and still take it as a cultural reference: "the Catholics believe such and such" "for the Zen Buddhists, the ultimate goal is Nirvana" blah blah blah. Just because it is presented doesn't mean it requires any assent other than from a cultural-historical perspective
August 27 at 10:59pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Positions available: my new start up 12 stepper: TNET A
August 27 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I took John's method and I'm now free from TNET
August 27 at 11:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict World Spirit Networking recommends TNET. And WE NEED DONATIONS.
August 27 at 11:04pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer This could always end up on twitter with #tnet
August 27 at 11:06pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I prefer #gnosis
August 27 at 11:06pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Either way, this thread reminds me of twitter back around 2009.
August 27 at 11:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Moses supposes his toes are roses, but Moses' gnosis is erroneous
August 27 at 11:08pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Btw, I've seen a single TACer screw in a light bulb on multiple occasions. Thanks work study!
August 27 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger when michael returns, tell him i have a first 5 are free discount in the 8128 step program.
August 27 at 11:08pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Michael is here I think?
August 27 at 11:09pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley. The Church has not definitively taught on the infallibility of canonizations. Benedict tried to underscore it by ceasing to do most beatifications, restoring the old way of having someone else doit. A beatification of course is either merely permissive for veneration, or only orders veneration for a particular Church, order, group, etc. It is because of the universality of canoization that an argument can be made. In condemning the Council of Pistoia, the Church required it to be held that in matters of universal discipline, the Church cannot impose anything on the faithful positively harmful. So while a better practice may exist, the UNIVERSAL discipline cannot be positively harmful.
Canonization is at least, in form, a universal discipline, even if, nowadays, not every saint is actually venerated by all the faithul (via Mass e.g.)
St. Thomas wrote on this (my translation)
The argument for the infallibility of canonization rests solely on it affecting the universal prayer of the Church. If the saints we pray to were actually in hell, the Church's worship is in vain.
Whether all saints which are canonized by the Church must be in glory, or may some of them be in Hell?
And it seems that some can be in Hell, of those who are canonized in the Church
For no one can be certain of the state of another, just as he himself of himself, since what belongs to a man, no one knows but the spirit of the man, which is in himself, as it says in I Cor. 2:11. But man cannot be certain of himself, whether he is in the state of salvation, for it is said in Eccl. 9:1, "No one knows, whether he be worthy of hate or love." Therefore, the Pope knows much less, therefore he can err in canonizing.
Furthermore, whoever in judging begins with a fallible means can err. But the Church in canonizing saints begins with human testimony, since she inquires through witnesses about the life and miracles. Therefore, since the testimony of men is fallible, it seems that the Church can err in canonizing the saints.
But against this, in the Church there cannot be a damnable error. But this would be a damnable error, if one were venerated as a saint who was a sinner, since some knowing his sins would believe this to be false, and it such were to happen, they could be led to error. Therefore the Church cannot err in such things.
Furthermore, Augustine says in a letter to Jerome, that if in the canonical Scripture some lying is admitted, our faith, which depends on the canonical Scripture, would be shaken. But just as we are held to believe that which is in the sacred Scripture, just so that which is commonly determined by the Church. Whence he is judged a heretic who opines against the determination of the Councils. Therefore, the common judgment of the Church cannot be erroneous, and thus the same as said above.
I respond that it must be said, that something can be judge possible considered according to itself, which related to something extrinsic, is found to be impossible. Therefore, I say that the judgment of those who preside in the Church can err in whatever matter, if in respect to their persons only. But if divine providence is considered, which directs His Church by the Holy Spirit that it may not err, just as He promised in John 9, "that the coming Spirit shall teach every truth," namely in things necessary for salvation, it is certain that it is impossible for the judgment of the universal Church to err in those things which pertain to faith. Whence, the statements, pronounced in judgment by the pope to whom it pertains to make determinations about the faith, are to stand more than the opinions about Scripture of any of the wise whatsoever. Since it is read that Caiphas, although he was unworthy, since since he was pontiff, also prophesied unknowingly, John 11:51. But in other statement which pertain to particular facts, as when it treats of possessions or crimes or others of this sort, it is possible for the judgment of the Church to err because of false witnesses.
But the canonization of the saints is a mean between these two. Since, nevertheless, the honor which we exhibit to the saints, is a certain profession of the faith, by which we believe in the glory of the saints, it must be piously believed that the Church is also unable to err in this.
To the first, therefore, it must be said that the Pontiff, to whom it belongs to canonize saints, can be made certain of the state of another through the inquisition of life and the attestation of miracles, and precisely through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, who examines all things, even the profound things of God.
To the second it must be said, that divine providence preserves the Church lest in such things it is deceived by the fallible testimony of men
Quodlibet IX, q. 8 ad 2
August 27 at 11:10pm · Like · 7
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Lauren Ogrodnick Sooo.... In dumb man's terms
August 27 at 11:15pm · Like
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John Boyer ie tl;dr
August 27 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Some of the Church can err in its discipline, even worship. The whole Church cannot. Beatiication is "some of the Church," canoniztion is all of it.
August 27 at 11:16pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ok, that's what I thought.
August 27 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^nice recovery^
August 27 at 11:19pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It looks to me that what it comes down to is that there is a widely held theological opinion that canonization is an exercise of infallibility, but no definitive statement to that effect.
August 27 at 11:20pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Quite. And as far as I can see, there is not likely to be one!
August 27 at 11:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger The CE article Edward linked is more comprehensive bvt STA gives the best reason for it.
August 27 at 11:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict By the way John Ruplinger, this is a long time coming - sorry I was so belligerent back in the 600s of this thread. I do believe I misunderstood your jokes.
August 27 at 11:27pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger that was another era. Lots of misunderstanding.
August 27 at 11:30pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I took nothing personal and its hard to see people's intent or expression behind a screen.
August 27 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer That's what ALL CAPS ARE FOR! ANGRY TYPING!
August 27 at 11:33pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger i am also belligerent and rash. Hard to know how it appears.
August 27 at 11:34pm · Like
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John Boyer Sooooooo, any thoughts on Descartes's ontological argument? What do y'all remember about it from junior year? (I'm outsourcing lecture prep due to getting home late)
August 27 at 11:36pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger OR TO BE SEEN over the mellifluous lalagations of pb.
August 27 at 11:37pm · Like
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Megan Caughron How many people on this thread are teachers...?
August 27 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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JA Escalante me sometimes
August 27 at 11:38pm · Like
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JA Escalante Boyer obviously is
August 27 at 11:39pm · Like
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Megan Caughron I mean, claim a teaching job on tax documents. You know what i mean!
August 27 at 11:39pm · Like
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JA Escalante I did know what you meant
August 27 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Boyer Yup
August 27 at 11:40pm · Like
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JA Escalante Peterson is
August 27 at 11:42pm · Like
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John Boyer Daniel Lendman is a grad student. Don't know if he teaches any classes...
August 27 at 11:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Not me, anymore, thank God
August 27 at 11:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger BACK to the canonization question, my objection derives from the same principle as Aquinas. It is serious matter. I wish it were not so. But the Faith itself is at stake. I leave it at that and say only I am certain of the Church's indefectability.
August 27 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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JA Escalante I can imagine an argument for non-infallible canonization which wouldn't compromise the principle of indefectibility or anything else essential to RC belief
August 27 at 11:45pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Escalante I have seen such arguments too. But they are hard to reconcile with the, albeit hard to state the authority of, condemnation of Pistoia (the Church has a habit of list 100 propositions, and then say they are all heretic, savoring of heresy, favorable to sectarianism and/or offensive to pious ears, without saying which is which)
August 27 at 11:49pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger what proposition is condemned? . . . Forget it. I just took in your whole statement, but i think i will revert to my much safer opinion. So thanks, Joshua and Edward. (I have a narrower argument that doesn't affect infallibility of canonization. Maybe i will pm you.)
August 27 at 11:55pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm getting paid to teach too, Megan...hahaha
August 28 at 12:07am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Just taught sophomores about Raymond and Bohemond of the 1st Crusade today!
August 28 at 12:07am · Like
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Jeff Neill But if tac taught the "fullness of the magisterium of the church" this wouldn't be a question right now, right?
August 28 at 12:08am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict ^This man knows what's up.^
August 28 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I need an app just for this silly thread.
August 28 at 12:22am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Boyer, don't worry....the Thread has an app for you already
August 28 at 12:24am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I only lived next to Beitia and with the other carlin
August 28 at 12:25am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Thread has already carved your tombstone, John.
August 28 at 12:28am · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm a teacher, Megan.
August 28 at 12:31am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The Yankees win!!!!!!!
August 28 at 12:31am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell (That was the sports, now back to you, Bob.)
August 28 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell "To al newe professirs and teacheres about to teache: Ye are awesome. An invisible & beneficent unicorn shal protect yow on yower first daye." —@LeVostreGC
August 28 at 12:37am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha I am a teacher in at least one sense of the word.
August 28 at 12:39am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^sorites?
August 28 at 12:40am · Like
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Isak Benedict But do not despair, John - for it has also built your cradle.
August 28 at 12:40am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz But did it nurse him?
August 28 at 12:41am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Back to Peregrine's statement: "Reading Scripture without Tradition and dogmatic theology is what Protestants and atheists do."
What say you? I don't see this being answered.
I don't agree with Scott. I think a fair reading of the text is permissible by Catholics without being somehow framed by doctrine first. Can't it be read first at face value?
August 28 at 12:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Because that is a disturbing image
August 28 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell A propos of nothing, did you all know that today is Hegel's birthday? Born August 27th, 1770.
August 28 at 12:42am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell A ghost is haunting this thread ...
August 28 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict As usual with Peregrine, he has some interesting things to say mixed in with balderdash. I do not entirely disagree with that statement, insofar as it is quite true that the Protestant approach to Holy Scripture is "Sola," as it were, while the Catholic approach is guided by Church tradition.
That does not therefore mean that to read the Bible, say, for example, as literature, (or any other non-magisterial way) is to be a Protestant or atheist. I think there is much fruit in sometimes reading it the way one might read, say, The Iliad. As long as one does not do so exclusively. Does that make sense, Jody? I'm sort of thinking as I go here.
August 28 at 12:48am · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel - WHOA. I feel suddenly weird.
August 28 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I find the "There's no personal God in Aristotle" cliché tiresome. What to be people really mean by that? If what they mean is that Aristotle did not have a concept of the person then it's just obvious. But notice that they never say "Aristotle does not think that human beings are persons," which is just as obvious is that sense. But if they mean that Aristotle denies something essential to the person of God, then it's demonstrably false, as the opposite is true.
I don't find it surprising that Matthew J. Peterson takes up this vacuous cliché, since it gives him ammunition for his war on "TAC's idea of an anhistorial Aristotlethomas," but I'm slightly surprised that you take up the cliché Samantha since Caleb is so good at exploding similarly vacuous clichés about Aristotle's teaching on the soul.
FWIW Frederick Copleston gives exactly the same argument as Big Angry Daniel and Edward Langley above:
August 28 at 12:53am · Edited · Unlike · 10
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wasn't the question of a personal god in Aristotle a question that only arose later, in Neoplatonism and then with the Arabs? It was fundamentally a question of what sort of CAUSES his god knows. THAT he knows is manifest.
August 28 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I believe Matthew affirmed what Daniel and Edward said, later. I should say conceded.
August 28 at 1:01am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, Pater, as I see it there are two ways to approach the question: historically by asking "did Aristotle think God is a person" and philosophically "did Aristotle attribute to God the characteristics of a person".
Historically the question is trivial, since the philosophical/theological notion of "person" arose with the attempts to model the Trinity.
Philosophically, the question is "is the definition of person, 'individua substantia rationalis naturae' applicable to the God Aristotle describes. I think it is and it is trivial to show this: rational here just means "having an intellect". Aristotle's God has an intellect and is a substance. Q.E.D.
What's more difficult (and impossible) is for Aristotle to determine how many individual substances God is. But even there, Aristotle has some hint of the truth: doesn't St. Thomas quote Aristotle's De Caelo as having some threeness.
Obviously all the implications of being a person aren't explicit in Aristotle, but that's immaterial.
August 28 at 1:02am · Edited · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Also, LONG LIVE ARISTOTHOMAS
August 28 at 1:05am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Or is it Aquinotle?
August 28 at 1:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell This is all backwards. The question of person-hood in God or gods (historically) has nothing to do with the Trinity. It's a question about God's relation to people.
August 28 at 1:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So, e.g., we assert God's personhood as the God of Abraham.
August 28 at 1:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The God who spoke to Moses from the bush.
August 28 at 1:07am · Like
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Katherine Gardner God definitely thought Aristotle was a person.
August 28 at 1:07am · Unlike · 6
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Katherine Gardner @Edward
August 28 at 1:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Aristotle's god doesn't do this sort of thing.
August 28 at 1:07am · Like
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Edward Langley That's a different sense of "personal"
August 28 at 1:08am · Like
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Edward Langley (I was going to note that, but thought my intention was obvious)
August 28 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell No, it's not. You and Copleston are treating this in far to pat a manner.
August 28 at 1:09am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell As I alluded to above, the question is about what sort of causes god understands.
August 28 at 1:09am · Like
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Edward Langley Also, I've heard a passage in the Eudemian Ethics cited where Aristotle claims that when an ignorant man performs a virtuous action, he was inspired by the first cause. But I've never been able to find such a passage.
August 28 at 1:09am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Does god understand universal causes only? If so, then he / she is in no sense a personal god.
August 28 at 1:10am · Like
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Edward Langley I took Daniel Lendman's claim to be "Aristotle knew that God is a person but not that God was three persons". Matthew J. Peterson asked for evidence and several of us responded in various ways.
August 28 at 1:10am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell If, however, god understands e.g., what makes me want to go to Burger King at 1 am, then god is a personal god.
August 28 at 1:10am · Like
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Edward Langley On the question of God's knowledge, I say read Thomas DeKoninck's article in the Review of Metaphysics.
August 28 at 1:11am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You should engage with the claim I'm making, and not tell me to go read an article I've long ago read.
August 28 at 1:12am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell This is very much a problem of Neoplatonic philosophy and Arabic philosophy, the two parts of philosophical history that TAC casts a blind eye upon.
August 28 at 1:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger personal is from person: an individual intellectual substance [ that can be personable or standoffish]
August 28 at 1:13am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm saying that you're argument is incidental to the sense we're using "personal" here.
I grant that it's hard to determine what Aristotle thinks God knows and thus it's hard to determine if Aristotle's God is a "personal" God in the sense you're using, but I reiterate, no one besides you is thinking of "personal" in that way.
August 28 at 1:13am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley If you want to insist that "personal" doesn't bear these two senses, I'm not sure how to proceed
August 28 at 1:14am · Like
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Isak Benedict "And in this corner..."
August 28 at 1:15am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I was avoiding saying that "Aristotle knew that God is a person" because that could imply that Aristotle knew that God is _one_ person, which would be false.
August 28 at 1:15am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell But isn't Copleston just blowing smoke ... ? Secudum rem ... ? That doesn't persuade me.
August 28 at 1:16am · Like
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Edward Langley Coppleston is saying that "God is (one or more) individual substances having a rational nature"
August 28 at 1:17am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But, rereading, I won't defend Coppleston: (a) because I don't like his style and (b) because I'm not sure I have enough context to judge his claims.
August 28 at 1:18am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell God's nature is beyond reason ... all three of the monotheistic traditions affirm this. ... anyway, what I'm trying to say, is that it's too pat to simply assert Boethius' definition of personhood and then look back to Aristotle and say his god (a thinking of thinking!) was a person.
August 28 at 1:18am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Fair enough.
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Edward Langley Katherine Gardner, just noticed what the intent of your comment was.
August 28 at 1:19am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The implication you're drawing, Daniel, sounds like it would rule out anything besides negative theology. As a Thomist and a Catholic, I'd disagree.
August 28 at 1:20am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I would claim that it's Augustinus (and probably earlier fathers) who claim personhood (i.e.: knowledge of all causes, universal and particular) for God. I'll stick with Augustine, as he's the one I know best: it's in his refutation of Cicero's argument against divine foreknowledge in City of God that he claims God knows all causes (necessary and free, particular and universal).
August 28 at 1:20am · Like
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Edward Langley What do you think of the Dionysian superessential predication?
August 28 at 1:21am · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (or whatever it's called)
August 28 at 1:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I just realized James Layne hasn't been made one with the Thread
August 28 at 1:23am · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (Also, Rye and typing don't mix verry weelll_
August 28 at 1:23am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're a rye man ... see, I can trust you ...
August 28 at 1:24am · Unlike · 1
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Tim Cantu This is my thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My thread is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My thread, without me, is useless. Without my thread, I am useless. I must fire my thread true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My thread and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My thread is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my thread clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My thread and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
August 28 at 1:25am · Like · 4
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JA Escalante Aristotle seems to think that God doesn't know particulars directly, but a lot would depend on what God's relation to the gods is, since they do (vide Bodeus); and if the gods are somehow God, then He does in a way know particulars
August 28 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu it doesn't translate perfectly but it's pretty good.
August 28 at 1:25am · Like
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JA Escalante but there's a lot of equivocation going on here, and Daniel can get crankypants about this topic
August 28 at 1:26am · Like
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Edward Langley Although if Aristotelian philosophy implies that God is infinitely perfect, then he would be a principle of knowing all creatures and thus, in his self-knowledge, he would know all creatures.
August 28 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante God of course directly sees Dan's crankypantsness
August 28 at 1:27am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (and I realise that today's scholarship would deny infinite perfection of Aristotle's God)
August 28 at 1:27am · Like
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Edward Langley But they seem to be largely caught up in words.
August 28 at 1:28am · Like
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JA Escalante Edward, there are several steps missing there, and that's a somewhat Thomistified reading of Aristotle. In case Pater Edmund is right, Aristotle's God is most definitely Mind and "substance", and thus "personal" in the philosophic sense
August 28 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I realize that, but I happen to think that Thomas gets Aristotle right 99% of the time.
August 28 at 1:29am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell With friends like JA! ... not to dodge the question on Dionysius, but at bottom I'm more interested in an ethnological (and at the same time religious) concept of personhood. It's realized by Abraham in God's promise of Isaac (and subsequent command for sacrifice and salvation), it's realized by the Apostles in the Transfiguration or, at the very latest, at Pentecost, and it's realized by Muhammad in the revelation of the Qur'an by the angel Gabriel. Prescinding from the question of the truth or falsity of those experiences for a moment, THAT is a PERSONAL God (in the thick sense!).
August 28 at 1:30am · Like
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Pater Edmund Daniel P. O'Connell your PERSONAL is way too THICK. You write "personhood (i.e.: knowledge of all causes, universal and particular)" according that definition I am not a person.
August 28 at 1:31am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell No. You mistake my meaning Pater.
August 28 at 1:32am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm applying that to God's knowledge.
August 28 at 1:32am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell For God to be personal in this sense, he has to have chosen you, knit you together in your mother's womb.
August 28 at 1:33am · Like
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Pater Edmund I was just trolling you.
August 28 at 1:33am · Like · 4
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JA Escalante to be fair Dan is just saying that is what *divine* personhood would entail given what person is in the stipulated sense, and what God is
August 28 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Where is John Brungardt in all this?
August 28 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Pater, you got me!
August 28 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Maybe JA is right ... I am getting a bit crankypants, which sounds like something Nina Gapinski would say ...
August 28 at 1:34am · Edited · Like · 2
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JA Escalante but Dan the question of revelation isn't that simple a criterion. The Greeks had oracles, and those oracles were of the gods, and if the gods are somehow God (emanations, whatever), then its mediated revelation, but still somehow God talking to men; a lot like the Vodoun distinction between the lwa (who talk to us) and Bondye (who doesn't directly), but the lwa *are* Bondye in refraction; I think Aristotle thinks something like this, more or less
August 28 at 1:36am · Edited · Like · 1
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James Layne I'm viewing on my phone and something must be wrong here! I keep clicking "view previous comments," but there is no end (or maybe it's malfunctioning). What the hell happened? This will make good reading tomorrow. Thanks for notifying me, Joshua Kenz.
August 28 at 1:36am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm not sure ... in this case, however, what are we to make of the rather strong anti-personal nature of Plato's gods? As Plato tells it, at least, through Socrates, when the gods are like Zeus and Hera, this just leads us into absurdities. The poets lie.
August 28 at 1:39am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell (although I like your Vodoun analogy)
August 28 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Plato's gods act by the necessity of nature, despite what Timaeus says.
August 28 at 1:41am · Like
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JA Escalante Dan unlike you I am not a member of the Neoplatonic religion, and thus I have no magisterial doctrine of Aristotelian-Platonic harmonia binding upon me
August 28 at 1:41am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell
August 28 at 1:41am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think if the world is eternal (which is at least the supposition in Physics VIII), then you need a first mover (a thinking of thinking) who never changes.
August 28 at 1:42am · Like
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John Ruplinger could the gods be bad? Homer seems to show them so ( except maybe Poseiden)
August 28 at 1:42am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I guess you could have lower, planetary intelligences who are "personal" in some sense. Interacting with us in some way ...
August 28 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante knowing particulars does not necessitate or imply change, btw
August 28 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell True. As Augustine shows in his City of God.
August 28 at 1:43am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Hold on....are you implying if the world is not eternal, you can have a first mover that changes?
August 28 at 1:44am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger What did St Augustine think about the gods?
August 28 at 1:45am · Edited · Like · 1
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JA Escalante get 'im, Joshua!
August 28 at 1:45am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell LOL.
August 28 at 1:45am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You COULD ... but you need not. The world's eternality requires a god who never changes, but a world which begins in time (it seems to me) could have a changeable or an unchangeable source.
August 28 at 1:46am · Like
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JA Escalante ^!!!!!!
August 28 at 1:46am · Like
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John Ruplinger Who exorcized the Pythian oracle?
August 28 at 1:48am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I mean, Thomas' God or Lucretius' "swerve" ... both are consistent with a world that begins.
August 28 at 1:48am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Maimonides would back me up here I think.
August 28 at 1:48am · Like
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Joshua Kenz What?!!! Are you saying that, as far as the evidence the world gives, God could be changeable? Or that it could have a source other than God?
It seems to me that while there is a particular argument based on a supposed eternity of the world (cf the "5 Ways" in the Summa contra gentiles, particularly the second), every argument for God ends with his unchangeability
August 28 at 1:48am · Like
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Joshua Kenz (by ends I means leads to, not as if it is the final end of reasoning). Changeable things need an unchangeable source, all the more so if the world is not eternal
August 28 at 1:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger What did Croesus' test of all the famous oracles show about their knowledge?
August 28 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But Lucretius' swerve is not the origin of the universe, even in Lucretiu
August 28 at 1:50am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Why? I mean, I don't want to get into defending Lucretius here ... I never much cared for his poetry, but doesn't his changeable world have a changeable (i.e., random, chance-based) source?
August 28 at 1:50am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The swerve is not the source of the world. It is the source of things not determined (free will e.g.)
August 28 at 1:51am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And I was more thinking about the truth of the matter, not a listing of what some pagan thought. Not has someone claimed, but I asked youwhat youclaim about the actual evidence
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell This world as we know it would not have come into existence were it not for the swerve of atoms in the void.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Right.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't agree with Lucretius.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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JA Escalante this is the book I was referring to earlier, for any interested:
http://www.sunypress.edu/p-3247-aristotle-and-the...
Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals
www.sunypress.edu
Aristotle and the Theology of the Living Immortals
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I guess all I would care to defend at this point is the possibility of a non-eternal world with a changeable first cause.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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JA Escalante but a changeable first cause is an absurdity
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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JA Escalante that might even need the definite article- *the* absurdity
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't know ... what about an anthropomorphic deity who decides not to create a world ... then later he changes his mind and creates one?
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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JA Escalante but that's fairytale, not metaphysics
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante in literature, sure, the world can be created by a mutant ninja turtle; but in reality, the world has to have an unchanging first cause
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Okay. That I all I was getting at. Note that many people who talk a lot about a "personal God" end up denying His immutability (open theism eg).
Now the only problem is, since you hold an immutable God (right) you are claiming that one cannot clearly see the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, and understand by the things that are made; His eternal power also, and divinity.
Again we are not interested in what someone might hypothesize, but in what the truth is. God is immutable. If the world does not require an unchanging first cause, in se, then we do not get to God through reason, at least not on those grounds.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell What would Nietzsche say about fairytale and metaphysics? ... but more to the point, I think I see what you are saying. If there is to be a first cause (which there need not be), then the first cause must be unchanging.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger Anyways, my point is that if you investigate the ancient texts, they seem unanimous that the gods were bad or fake. Wherefore in his commentary on Romans, Chrysostum criticizes Socrates for sacrificing to a god he knew was false . . . .
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But there needs be a first cause, or do you think such is just an hypothesis (as far as reason goes), not knowable by reason?
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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John Boyer I wasn't aware open theism was a synonym for theistic personalism.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think Aristotle shows very clearly in his Physics that, for a world whose existence is infinite (or at least not bounded) in its duration, then a first mover is necessary.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger and Augustine points out the frauds of the pagan theologians and priests in the City of God.
August 28 at 2:00am · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The common assumption is that Aristotle takes the more difficult case, in choosing the eternal world, right? Because if it's finite, it's (supposedly) much easier to prove...
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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John Boyer Yep
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay, but that does not mean that if the world is not eternal, a first mover is not necessary.....quite the opposite. The main argument gathered from the Physics amounts to the 1st way, which is all about the hic et nunc of motion
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Also he takes that because it's what is presupposed by the pre-socratics.
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John Boyer Also eternity isn't until bk 8. Bk 7 gives first mover.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't want to seem cagey here. I think there is an eternal immutable source of everything that exists. But the question is whether there needs to be a first mover ... more to the point, whether we can know this with certitude. I think we can, but I'm not so sure the 1st way in the Summa Th. does the trick.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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John Boyer Well you can always take 2-5.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell
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John Boyer So what's the faulty premise? Or is the argument not valid.
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Edward Langley The newest graph
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John Boyer ?
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Edward Langley Comments, vertical axis; time in seconds, horizontal axis
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't want to drag in another figure here, but by comparison to Scotus' argument, what is missing is a full proof that there cannot be an infinite regress of causes as well as the unicity of the first mover (i.e., that there is only one of them).
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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John Boyer Ah
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm sure Thomas knew this.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think the Summa is a compendium, right? So he's giving us the shortest versions of these 5 ways.
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John Boyer Does he need to show only one god?
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John Boyer The fact that there is only one comes up in Q. 11
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John Boyer All you need is A god.
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Edward Langley That's Ockham's contention: he claims that unless one can show that there is only one universe, you can't demonstrate the Christian God.
August 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I suppose I'll learn all about Scotus this semester in Tim Noone's Scotus class.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Tim Noone is amazingly awesome.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, he's like a walking encyclopedia
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell If you're going to learn Scotus, what better person to learn from than a Scotist?
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well I like forthright responses, otherwise my sniffers go up...
I think it seems weird to say there is a first mover, but that it is an open question whether there needs to be...I think that is to ignore what a first mover is. That is like saying this power cord is in a battery, thus powering the light, but need not be in order to power the light. It both receives its motion from the battery and does not need the battery for that motion at the same time. If it already possesses what it gives, there isn't is a prior cause to it. If it does not, there must be. If there is a first cause, there must be a first cause. That amounts to little more than a tautology
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I kinda would like to see Socrates take Tim Noone on
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Well, at least the last few hundred comments were quite interesting.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 5
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John Boyer This was a hundred? Dang.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Time flies when you're having fun (i.e., contemplating basic truths).
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Yarp!
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Where are the standings now, Edward?
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I still want to re-visit this 'person' question regarding Aristotle's god ... I think JA opened up some interesting avenues regarding Greek pagan thought about god / gods.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell For now I'm off to bed as it's nearly 2:30 here. Carry on, ye west coasters / Euro-people.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell @Joshua: My short answer for now is that it's all about the assertion that there can't be an infinite regress. But I think Scotus solves it (and probably Thomas in the Sentences, but I'm not sure).
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Top Ten:
722 Peregrine Bonaventure
631 Michael Beitia
395 John Ruplinger
341 Edward Langley
327 JA Escalante
319 Daniel Lendman
216 Catherine Ryland
197 Isak Benedict
187 Matthew J. Peterson
142 Pater Edmund
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz Aquinas gives three arguments for that in the Summa Contra gentiles
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I have advanced beyond JA Escalante, Isak Benedict has moved up two places.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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JA Escalante PB remains the Unmoved Mover
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 7
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Edward Langley .
122 Sam Rocha
116 Joel HF
107 Lauren Ogrodnick
107 Jody Haaf Garneau
96 Nina Rachele
86 Marina Shea
82 Daniel P. O'Connell
68 Philip D. Knuffke
60 John Boyer
55 Frank Morris
52 Megan Caughron
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 4
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Edward Langley John Boyer is the promising newcomer
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Well I think a day job precludes breaking the top 20, but who knows...tomorrow I am off. Post padding like it ain't never been done 'fore
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Lauren Ogrodnick and Joel HF have moved upwards
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Arg contra infinite regress is taken from other places. Taken for granted. I'm guessing theo students would be familiar.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Most of my comments are idle words.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Philip D. Knuffke is falling behind.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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John Boyer And that was all in one day.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Or I could be productive and do one of a dozen things I have put off
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley .
47 Joshua Kenz
46 Samantha Cohoe
45 Sean Robertson
39 Jason Van Boom
37 Tim Cantu
36 Tom Sundaram
36 Max Summe
33 Aaron Dunkel
26 John Kunz
24 Katie Duda
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Wow, I used to be in the top 5. I am slipping.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley .
23 Megan Baird
20 Clayton Brockman
19 Joe Zepeda
17 Emily Norppa
16 Liam Collins
15 John Herreid
15 Claire Keeler
14 Erik Bootsma
14 Aaron Gigliotti
13 Kevin Gallagher
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
12 Dominique Martin
10 Bekah Sims
10 Adrw Lng
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Now that I've finished watching a movie with the wife and eating dessert, I can finally do lecture prep. Until I check Facebook...I mean TNET again.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley And, just for good measure, the graph again:
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley There are approximately 191,817 words in the thread (as of 2:00am EST)
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Edward Langley Averaging 5 letters per word.
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Isak Benedict This is becoming a self-referential mess. A smorgasbord of ideas. A veritable cornucopia of sentences vying for attention.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz If you ad up the totals from those not on the top 20-down, we still don't equal PB (582 give a few)
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict And so we jockey on, hurtling towards the future, the past receding behind us like clouds of dust, becoming ever harder to discern, ever more arduous to chronicle.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The wind in the willow's playin' "Tea for Two";
The sky was yellow and the sun was blue,
Strangers stoppin' strangers just to shake their hand,
Everybody's playing in the heart of gold band, heart of gold band.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley readability grades:
Kincaid: 7.4
ARI: 7.3
Coleman-Liau: 7.7
Flesch Index: 72.1/100
Fog Index: 10.6
Lix: 35.8 = school year 5
SMOG-Grading: 10.0
sentence info:
797142 characters
185856 words, average length 4.29 characters = 1.39 syllables
10953 sentences, average length 17.0 words
48% (5293) short sentences (at most 12 words)
18% (1985) long sentences (at least 27 words)
809 paragraphs, average length 13.5 sentences
11% (1293) questions
42% (4615) passive sentences
longest sent 138 wds at sent 5665; shortest sent 1 wds at sent 3
word usage:
verb types:
to be (6249) auxiliary (2188)
types as % of total:
conjunctions 4% (7561) pronouns 9% (16004) prepositions 13% (24057)
nominalizations 1% (2544)
sentence beginnings:
pronoun (2055) interrogative pronoun (197) article (391)
subordinating conjunction (218) conjunction (540) preposition (1071)
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz You need to be more copacetic Edward Langley. Too much analysis will drive you mad.
Well, I ain't always right but I've never been wrong.
Seldom turns out the way it does in a song.
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Maybe I need to lay off the absynthe....
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Boyer Yeah...about that Joshua, we've all been meaning to talk to you about your problem with...err, I mean love of absinthe.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John Kunz wrote the longest comment (#470) weighing in at 900 words. In it he solved all of Peregrine's objections, as has happened frequently since then.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 6
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Edward Langley And, Liam Collins, if I told you my method of compiling these statistics, I'd have to kill you.
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 6
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Edward Langley G'night Y'all
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Wait Joshua Kenz doesn't have the longest post? Shocked.
August 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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John Boyer G'night
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Brian Kemple Uh oh. I feel the overwhelming need to interject again, despite my undergraduate degree having a different college's name. Also, because my internet was down for over an hour, I feel like I'm beating some long-dead horse...
Anyway, Aristotle's God would not be personal in Thomas' sense, inasmuch as Thomas applies to God the name "person" because the Divine is engaged in real relations (Ia, 29.4), which is the proper signification of the term (according to Mr. Common Dr., anyway). At most, being a final cause (let's not get into the issue of whether or not Aristotle's God is a first efficient cause...) and accepting the notion that thought thinking itself precludes consideration of its causality on others as something essentially extrinsic, Aristotle's deity is "in" mixed relations only, being itself in no way affected by the relatedness of others.
To extrapolate a bit, human beings are capable of engaging in real personal relationship with God only through the humanity hypostatically united to the Divine in the person of Christ.
Now I'll just go back to pretending to work on my dissertation and hope this starts PB on another tangent about heresy.
*edit: wrong citation. 29.4, not 28.4
August 28 at 3:00am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Boyer Hey Brian, enough with the humility topos!
August 28 at 3:00am · Like
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Edward Langley (the order of the top ten comments, from longest to shortest is: John Kunz, Daniel Lendman, Joshua Kenz, John Ruplinger, John Ruplinger, Peregrine Bonaventure, Joshua Kenz, Pater Edmund, John Ruplinger, Joshua Kenz)
August 28 at 3:39am · Like · 6
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Sam Rocha Like I already warned you all a few times, here I go, but just for today (I promise). Some Augustinian soul music for the Feast of St. Augustine: http://samueldrocha.wix.com/late-to-love
late-to-love
samueldrocha.wix.com
August 28 at 3:45am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley @Brian, I don't think your argument works, but lack time.
In brief, I think you confuse the argument for what in God corresponds to the name person with the argument for whether God is personal.
In question 29, Aquinas splits those two questions: article three shows that the name person applies to God using roughly the argument I've laid out above. Article 4 shows that person signifies relation in God.
I don't see anything in 29.3 that Aristotle wouldn't assent to.
August 28 at 3:45am · Edited · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple I see plenty in 29.4 (which I had meant to cite above), though, that Aristotle wouldn't assent to. Like the last line of the corpus and ad.3. It's not just that "person signifies relation in God", but that "person" properly signifies relation (secundum dici, that is, and real relations at that [28.1]).
But since it's almost 3 am, I'll concede that I might be talking out of the wrong orifice here.
August 28 at 3:45am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Would 29.3 ad 4 be what Aristotle signifies in Meta Bk. 12? "Substance" can be applied to God in the sense of signifying self-subsistence." I feel that's stretching it.
August 28 at 3:45am · Like
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Pater Edmund Edward Langley can you use your computer voodoo to give us some stats on the authors cited by St Thomas (both in the Summa and more generally). There's a ranking somewhere of the citations in the IIa Pars, but I haven't been able to find one of the whole summa, or of the complete works.
August 28 at 3:45am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Has this thread really been sleeping for two hours?
August 28 at 4:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I can try to think of another innocuous example.
August 28 at 5:00am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia See, this is the kind of wild speculation Perebonburg has been warning us about. Really? Did Aristotle believe in a personal god? Flying waaaay too high there, guys.
John: the only parts about the pagans I remember from City of God is the chapter(s) on Priapus. Of course, they skip those parts at TAC, but hilarious nonetheless.
August 28 at 5:00am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia And to reply to what Joshua Kenz wrote earlier, trust me, having a day job does *not* preclude breaking the top twenty, provided you're willing to blow off your job.....
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger lot of confusion about the gods. Reading Acts and St Paul's exorcism and the need for interpretation as well as remembering one oracle in Herodotus that confessed it was deliberately deceiving and other things convinced me they were frauds or devils. Plutarch was a pagan priert (Apollo?) who noted the oracles stopped sometime after Christ. . . anyways i was always interested in them. By Themistacles clever interrpretation he saved Greece at Salamis a lot like Odysses in bk 2 interpreting the sign to his own ends (Iliad). . . .
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I suppose there are 3 options with oracles/priests
1: they are insane (mantis/manic?)
2: they are deceiving for their own ends (glory/offerings)
3: they communicate with the divine/diabolical
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger as to the gods, they are all called devils in the Bible and both Augustine and Chrystotum are good authorities and convincing. IMO most the ancient wise thought them devils or frauds too. But that is a looong argument.
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger mb. Its a combo of the 3.
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia Probably depends on the circumstances. Isn't there a fairly Christological prophesy given by the sibyl in Virgil's Georgiacs?
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was reading an article some years back that claimed that the cave of the sibyl had toxic volcanic fumes in it, so that's why the prophesies came out of there, oxygen deprivation or some such thing. But the modern world rejects option 3 wholesale
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger the "genuine" oracle was clearly possessed herself viz. Delphi and Pythia (or are those 2 the same. I forget. I think are tap water comes from Lethe.)
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it was Pythia I was reading about, that is in Italy, if I'm not mistaken, whereas Delphi is in (or around) Greece. Were's JAson when you need him. I'm sure he'd know
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The Sybil does complicate things. And God can make devils speak the truth too.
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia well, the devils don't have faith. They know
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- My comments on personhood in Aristotle were not endorsed by my husband, and do not necessarily reflect his views. He wasn't home at the time (or I would not have been on the Thread). But, disclaimers aside, I consulted with him when he got home, and he agreed that to refer to Aristotle's God as "willing" is well outside what we have of his thought. He did say, though, that he wouldn't object too much to someone using Boethius' definition of "person" to refer to Aristotle's God. So. I suppose I partly recant.
August 28 at 6:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe HOWEVER
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia this is clearly gnostic and inspired by Christian tradition:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib03.htm
Book I.
www.sacred-texts.com
Announcement, 1-5. Creation of the earth and man, 6-47. First sin and penalty, 4...See More
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha, don't you mean "sed contra"
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The reason I would say Aristotle's god isn't personal and not say that about Aristotle's views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously personal
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, SED CONTRA
August 28 at 6:00am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And overall, I quite sympathize with Matthew J. Peterson's crusade (if there is one) against the a-historical Aristothomas taught at TAC, if for no other reason than that it is quite embarrassing to go off to grad school and mistake a view of THomas' for a view of Aristotle, get called on it, then spend the rest of class rooting around in the text before you realize your mistake.
August 28 at 6:00am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger but they only see what God allows. They are also blind. I Iove Croesus' test (herodotus) which discovered only 2 "true" oracles but they only knew the present in that test.
August 28 at 6:00am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger it's interesting to inquire into the examples of oracles. They require layers of interpretation beginning with the priests interpreting the ravings of a possessed woman. . . . . I could make modern comparison but may offend pious ears.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger suffice that they are wrapped in ambiguity. And so often couldnt be disproved.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't take back anything I said.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Odysseus' interpretation of the snake eating the birds is too clever. Its real significance is nearly opposite imo (but that i take as the poet's own invention).
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia That's sort of the catch when reading philosophy, one has to distinguish between what the author is saying, what commentators are saying, and what is true. It is the movement between those three that seems to cause a lot of confusion, if not explicitly stated.
for example:
1 Aristotle does not state "personal god"
2 St. Thomas says you can know it
3 God is personal
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i thought you conceded that no one spoke falsely, matthew.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger generally i skip the commentators. It removes a whole layer of confusion (unless they be time tested)
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia granted, but a lot of classes and a lot of people use intermediate sources, and unless it is specifically claimed, there can be a lot of confusion. Someone above, for example, cited Copleston.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and for the record, I don't remember what Croesus' test was....
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger i was really screwed up by the intermediates for a while. I now adhere to the mega biblion kakon biblion principle. If its more than 50 pages, spend the time reading primary texts or posting on TNET.
August 28 at 7:00am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, who is Copleston, anyway? I do not recognize him as an authority I must submit to.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't either. He wrote a "history of philosophy"
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia and I think that's one of the things that TAC does right, excepting the Thomas/Aristotle issue.
Samantha, do they still read Lenin on motion? That was an absolute waste
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia or did they when you were there
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Samantha Cohoe What, in Lab? Doesn't sound familiar
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or philosophy?
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Michael Beitia I think it was philosophy..... talk about a straw man...
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm having flashbacks of Berquist.... I think Sophomore philosophy
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going to say no.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm still waiting for a refutation of anything I said or claimed.
Or any of the evidence I asked for.
But, to at least prevent more assumptions about what I think: I think there is interesting evidence in Aristotle's "other" Ethics and elsewhere (Cicero's quote from one of his dialogues) as to what Aristotle thought about God that tends towards what TACers want to say.
And it is true, as Pater Edmund says, that many who say "Aristotle's God wasn't a personal God" then proceed to make tiresome points. But the point itself isn't tiresome at all. It's rather obvious.
And yes, feeding the Thomistotle is a dangerous and ignorant thing to do, and it can be philosophically and theologically harmful, and most graduates are relatively clueless about why this is problematic.
In the scholarship, the other side usually goes too far (Harry Jaffa trying to separate Aristotle's Ethics from St. Thomas, for instance, in "Thomism and Aristotelianism", a fine book for TAC grads to read).
Now, I usually oppose that side in terms of scholarship insofar as Aristotle seems more open and less contradictory to the Faith than they let on.
But Ron M. liked that book and had Jaffa come to TAC for a reason.
Most TACers need to think more carefully about what Aristotle did and didn't say. I find most grads do not even think about this issue.
TAC grads will tend to think that Aristotle knew God as personal and proved natural law (which he talks about once, in the Rhetoric), etc.
August 28 at 7:00am · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia don't forget the special gnosis, Matt. oh, and good morning and welcome to the TNET
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Croesus, in brief: sent messengers to all famous ancient oracles to inquire on a certain day at a set time, " what is Croesus secretly cooking right now?" it was an impotable bastardization of turtle stew btw
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and stop being so confrontational..... hubris of TAC grads....
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I only recanted of my vociferous tone. Very partial recanting.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In short, they will say laughable things to serious scholars of Aristotle. They may be onto something but they would be destroyed by most serious scholars on the issue without being far more knowledgeable and careful.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia At what point do you determine "serious scholar"? More than the cursory glance at TAC, obviously.
At what point is one capable of speaking intelligently?
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger age 83 imo
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 5
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Erik Bootsma I'm sorry that you took offense to my words.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I mean a professional/this is what I do sort of person.
I have no intrinsic respect for scholarship.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger eg. I really didnt get the whole pantiestiedinknots contest above . . . . well actually i do suspect the underlying contraversy but that too really is much ado about nothing (if i guess right). The truth is more important than having this or that philosopher in one's corner. I love aristotle bc he has so well thought out things from every side. Aquinas is so clear (and straight foward). From both one can learn much but their methods are different. And i have so often been wrong about aristotle. He is a clever chap [TO MB]
August 28 at 7:00am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman In general, Matthew J. Peterson, I think would helpful on many levels if TAC grads, on the whole, paid attention to what we actually learned, and what we didn't. I realize that is rather vague and obscure, but let me explain:
(Gratuitous comment numbers padding pause).
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman If I may be so bold, I think the TAC "school of thought" centers more about the way things are. This is why Berquist denied that the school was a great books school. We do not attempt to master the ideas of the great books, but we try to learn about things. Most of us only learn how to learn about things. But this is important.
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Daniel Lendman The TAC school of thought is largely indifferent to whether Aristotle or Aquinas said something because both are principle masters of that the school follows.
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Daniel Lendman They both help us to learn about things.
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Daniel Lendman I am not saying that this is better or worse, I am deliberately making no value judgements. But this does seem to me to be an accurate description of what goes on.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure Why don't you just read Aristotle's missing "Primer on Catholic Doctrine Without Any Admixture of Error." That would solve the whole thing.
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger:
One of the problems is that what is at stake in this issue is the role of reason in human life - it is easy for those with Faith to baptize Aristotle and call the whole thing off: Faith and reason - BOOM - it all just works together, no problems. Of course, I am preeminently FOR the copious reading of Aristotle and St. Thomas, which I think is the best part of TAC, intellectually speaking.
Which, I might remind everyone, is made manifest in the status above.
August 28 at 7:00am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Consequently, I think if we really pay attention to what we've learned, we do not have a great amount of scholarly awareness. We know nothing, in fact, of current scholarship.. But we are ready to think deeply about things .
August 28 at 7:00am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Daniel, it's going to take more than 5 in a row to move up
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman In the end, I think for most people outside of academia, a baptized Aristotle is fairly benign.
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Daniel Lendman I know, Michael, I know.
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Daniel Lendman I am just getting started!
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ah, Matthew J. Peterson, but if some one objects to "Lockistotle" than they are just close minded, yes?
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman But, unfortunately, I like seeing what other people think.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The problem with not having any awareness of scholarship is that scholarship does overlap with arguments about what is true, so not being aware of it often means not being aware of plausible and challenging/opposing points of view.
And this is the problem of many tutors as well.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman So I tend not to multiply posts ad absurdum.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like
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John Boyer Morning all
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, I think you are right, but I think that belongs more to the province of higher academia. Not ideally, but necessarily.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ideally a liberal education would begin at a younger age.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 5
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John Boyer A summer session primer on Thomism in general (tradition, different flavors) for those going to grad school would be helpful.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Maybe this makes me a bad student, but I had no idea there were different types of Thomist when I started my MA. Or why they thought what they do. And everyone of course presupposes that I fit a mould I didn't know I fit (Lavalian). Just a minor gripe.
August 28 at 8:00am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Pater Edmund, I think your point waaaaay above about Aristotle's god obviously being a personal God is a good one, but it isn't something Aristotle explicitly says. And I think you conflate what is "per se" to the wise with what is "per se" to all.
Furthermore, what is evident using Aristotle's own principles and what Aristotle himself recognized are not the same. The De Anima may not be contrary to a Christian idea of the will, it may in fact support that notion beautifully, but De Anima itself does not recognize or discuss or in any way suggest that Aristotle had any explicit understanding of it. It would be like if someone were able to, I don't know, trisect the angle using only Euclid's Elements, and, for the sake of argument, let us say that this construction was certain, and true, and even elegantly simple. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that Euclid had any knowledge of this, even though he knew all the principles.
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John Ruplinger ON my part i dont know whether aquinas baptized aristotle or not. It is an important question and i waver back and forth. I at least have to reread all of both again. What is of note is that aristotle is not at all straight forward at least in those works i recently reread. He forces the rereader to engage in dialogue or dialectic. I at least can see where the Straussians are coming from but i withhold judgement on these controversies for not having read enough and merely maintain that one can do no better than to learn at the feet of plato, aristotle and aquinas but the last is preeminant for he was angelic and enlightened by faith.
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: Bwhahaha...I have no idea how so many people know so much about what I actually think about anything.
Of course, "Lockistotle" is, by definition, an absurdity.
But the questions surrounding Locke and Aristotle are similar (they are different, but are they intrinsically contradictory, etc.).
So to play my role in this crowd, and since you have provoked me, let me be provocative:
John Locke speaks much more clearly about what all men call a personal God than Aristotle does, and the same holds for Locke and natural law (which Aristotle only speaks about once, in the Rhetoric, as a kind of rhetorical flourish).
Heh, heh, heh.
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Joel HF This may be easier for me on account of the fact that I'm pretty ignorant about all of this compared to many (most?) of you, but I don't think I've ever had too much distinguishing Aristotle and Thomas.
I think there is a real push amongst certain ideologically motivated academics (aren't they all) to try to separate their thought. As if Thomas had to distort Aristotle to make him fit into a Christian ethic. At the very least, I think there is solid evidence to the contrary, and the position that Aristotle and Thomas are largely in agreement is, at the least, a respectable one (even if it is not currently in vogue). Cf. McInerny.
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John Boyer Cf. Feser.
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Matthew J. Peterson I agree with Joel HF wholeheartedly, to be clear, on the fact that many separate St. Thomas and Aristotle far too easily.
The usual historicism of the academy - which Daniel Lendman is right to say that TAC counters - makes it so many of these people never claim ANY thinker can overlap with ANY other because they lived at different times and places - and this is asinine. In fact, many seem to think that they all must contradict each other because they lived in different times and places.
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Samantha Cohoe Look how we all agree! Lovely.
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Joel HF Also, Samantha, I'm leery of the idea that Aristotle had any idea of "person," as STA used the term, at all, whether for God or for man. I still think that the definition can be applied to his idea of God as expressed in the later books of the Metaphysics
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John Ruplinger matthew, aristotle also mentions natural law in book v of nic. but that is obscure. In the rhetoric it is merely a tool to win an argument to be sure.
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Matthew J. Peterson And, once again, I'M the one praising TAC above all for reading tons of St. Thomas and Aristotle.
IN FACT, THAT VERY PRAISE IS WHAT BROUGHT THE NEVER ENDING THREAD's EXISTENCE INTO TIME AND SPACE IN THE STATUS ABOVE.
Of course, it already existed but it is in time by means of operation.
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John Boyer Aquistotle (auto correct wanted to say Squid turtle) sounds like a goat stag. I hear that's the new trophy for dorm wars.
Taking Thomas as a legitimate interpreter, if not the best one? Completely reasonable. However you must be able to give more than an a priori assertion that such is the case.
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger: Yes, the question is whether what we have of Aristotle is opposed to natural law or not - this is similar to the personal God question. Book V of the Ethics is notably obscure.
But my point is that a TAC grad simply assuming Aristotle is a natural law guy is sloppy stuff.
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Lauren Ogrodnick There are no more dorm wars...
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Samantha Cohoe Joel- right, Caleb didn't say that Aristotle himself had this concept of a person as an individual substance of a rational nature, just that the concept fits reasonably well onto what he did say.
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Samantha Cohoe BTW, if Pater Edmund gets to cite this Copleston person as an authority, then I get to cite Caleb as one.
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Daniel Lendman I take Caleb as an authority.
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Pater Edmund Well, I only cited Copleston to say "look even tiresome academcs make the same argument as Big Angry," not because I consider him an authority.
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Samantha Cohoe Oh good. A further step is that you should take me as an authority on Caleb, even his unpublished remarks at dinner.
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Samantha Cohoe especially his unpublished remarks at dinner.
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Matthew J. Peterson So as I say above I am NOT for much of modern scholarship's separation of St. Thomas and Aristotle.
BUT, on the other hand, the easy way in which TAC grads speak and bandy about "the truth" and "finding the truth" and yaddayaddayadda gets a little to easy and sloppy and cartoony, especially when combined with the staggering amount of ignorance we have when we are very ignorant of opposing interpretations and we are relatively weak when it comes to understanding the arguments of the "bad guys" we read in the program.
Which is why, Daniel Lendman, I'm not sure if the conflation of St. Thomas and Aristotle is harmful or not to most non-academics. I think it may be, as it allows people to simply think there is no tension ever between faith and reason and all is grand in the pursuit of the truth.
But hey, as I say in the status - the fact we read lots of both is a good thing - a great thing - the best thing, intellectually speaking, about TAC IMO
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Daniel Lendman Well, I think that means I am not a tiresome academic.
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Samantha Cohoe Everyone is tiresome to Pater Edmund this morning
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John Boyer Speaking of Caleb, I met someone who had read his dissertation who didn't know that the tradition did include interpretations that A. held the soul to be immortal. It was a bit startling. That's the problem with a lot of modern analytic Aristotelian scholarship.
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Pater Edmund It's not morning.
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John Boyer Wait. Aquinas represents faith and Aristotle reason?
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Matthew J. Peterson No, but Aquinas has faith and revelation and Aristotle does not.
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, I could be wrong about its harmfulness. It will be interesting to see the heritage of TAC play out over the next few decades.
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Pater Edmund But Samantha, you wrote, "The reason I would say Aristotle's god isn't personal and not say that about Aristotle's views of humans is precisely because I deny that Aristotle views God as personal in the way that humans are obviously personal." What do you mean?
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Matthew J. Peterson Daniel Lendman: I worry they will snap to extremes very soon when the bottom falls out.
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John Ruplinger i agree, matthew regarding natural law. I dont know what he means in the nic. And in the rhetoric he is tongue in cheek, naughty even -- i believe the rhetoric is where the straussians get their machiavellian interpretation of aristotle. I discern an outline for parts of the Prince there.
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John Boyer It would be nice to see the heritage of TAC publish some really good scholarship in the next few decades. Weapons grade Thomism (TM) and all that. Take the fight to the journals.
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Matthew J. Peterson But seriously, people, Pater Edmund: if you told most people that Aristotle "believed or thought there was a personal God" that would be highly misleading, no? To be at all honest, you would have to highly qualify that. One simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a will, or providence, or having some kind of personal relation to human beings, etc.
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Daniel Lendman Hell, let's just publish this thread.
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- was I unclear or do you just disagree? Not sure if I should re-state of defend myself
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Matthew J. Peterson We are peers, and we have reviewed our work, and we deem it publishable.
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John Boyer I'm still not clear what Pater Edmund means by personal.
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Pater Edmund Well, explain what you mean by humans being obviously personal.
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Matthew J. Peterson But "publishable" shall mean "always publishing"
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John Boyer Updating Vitae now...
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Pater Edmund I just mean what Boethius meant.
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Joel HF That's the comment I was responding to, I took it that Caleb Cohoe agreed with me! Now he needs to start posting himself. Resistance is futile.
Edit: I.e. the one Pater Edmund quoted above. I don't think humans being persons is obvious to Aristotle for the same reason, namely he didn't have the concept.
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John Boyer I'd cite Boetheus. Well then.
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger: I think a case can be made contra Straussians re Aristotle not being contradictory to the NL, but it is not as easy as a lot of TACers and others think.
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Matthew J. Peterson Caleb cannot deny The Thread any longer. It draws him.
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Matthew J. Peterson "Well, the Thread is what gives a Scholar his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."
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Daniel Lendman And it certainly has a light side and a dark side.
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Daniel Lendman And devotion to it also requires celibacy
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Daniel Lendman ...
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Daniel Lendman Yep, there are a lot of similarities between the thread and the force.
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know if it does draw him, you should have seen the look he gave me when I confessed to spending an hour on it yesterday
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Samantha Cohoe I'll reply in a minute, Pater, my daughter needs orange juice
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson are you using person the same way? All Pater Edmundmeans, I take it, is individual rational substance.
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John Ruplinger REGARDING straussians. They are formidable. My mentor and good friend has spent a year trying to refute one of their best on his last piece on the Republic. All i know of it is he is working on a seven fold distinction of "TO OV" whereat my mind explodes a bit and i realize my vocation is not to be a metaphysician. BTW that is the part he has been stuck on; i am pretty sure i cant help - he has spent 30 years meditating on the Republic.
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Matthew J. Peterson Just realized - I could make this thread public and we could link to it on Twitter, etc. - give it its own Twitter account, etc.
Or not.
Doubtless the The Neverending Thread already "knows" what will be since it simply is.
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Samantha Cohoe OK, so Pater Edmund, you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person don't likewise complain that Aristotle didn't think of humans as persons. I think that is because our first concept of a person *is* a human, and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to God. Hence, Daniel Lendman's objectionable claim that Aristotle's God had will.
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Matthew J. Peterson Is this Thread an individual rational substance?
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Samantha Cohoe Hope that was clear-- I have more babies climbing on me than you guys do, I think
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John Ruplinger pluralistic rational and irrational substance
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John Ruplinger it does think on its own thinking a lot. I believe that is heretical of recent: doesnt it fall under the anathema of being "self referential"
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Isak Benedict Matthew - it is not. The Threadness is not individual, but rather exists most properly as the matterless form which imbues all other threads with that-which-makes-them-what-they-are.
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Isak Benedict Also Matthew - perhaps make it public only to friends of friends for now, or something. I know a few people who would like to be a part of the rapture.
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Tom Harmon In honor of Augustine, whose feast day this is, I'm chiming in to say, "He who claims to have read every comment in this thread, lies." And also to ask: did Aquinas ever give the sense that he interpreted Aristotle to judge that God is a person?
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Peregrine Bonaventure When I woke up this morning, I noticed there was light outside my window. "Now every creature may be compared to God, as the air is to the sun which enlightens it. For as the sun possesses light by its nature, and as the air is enlightened by sharing the sun's nature; so God alone is Being in virtue of His own Essence, since His Essence is His existence; whereas every creature has being by participation, so that its essence is not its existence. Therefore, as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. iv, 12): "If the ruling power of God were withdrawn from His creatures, their nature would at once cease, and all nature would collapse." In the same work (Gen. ad lit. viii, 12) he says: "As the air becomes light by the presence of the sun, so is man enlightened by the presence of God, and in His absence returns at once to darkness....
"The preservation of things by God is a continuation of that action whereby He gives existence, which action is without either motion or time; so also the preservation of light in the air is by the continual influence of the sun."
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't think Aristotle viewed God as a person, and I think he also thought ensoulment took place after conception, the formal cause of man informing matter after conception, whereas the soul of a plant is induced from the potency of matter. But it's a little unfair to say, because he cannot respond.
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Michael Beitia that is one of the reasons God can be known (yada yada admixture blah blah error) from creation. As St. Augustine so rightly points out (through faith) God underlies and permeates the whole of creation.... therefore he can be seen through it.
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Michael Beitia It is speculation, but Aristotle seems to say that the vegetative, and then animal "parts" of the soul happen first in time. But it has been a long time one of the younger folks could check me on that
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Peregrine Bonaventure Admixture of Obi-wansianism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YQJsbbWNA
Obi-Wan explains the Force
Obi-Wan gives a cliffnotes explanation of what the Force is. This clip belongs to Lucasfilms and George Lucas.
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Michael Beitia crap. Mr. Bonbonventura (the candy to come - Halloween... MichaeL Myers . . . free association)
liked my comment. Stupid gnosis on the fritz again
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Daniel Lendman It is now the place for "Perennial Truths"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr9mLP6NwnU
this is your left
your gonna die
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Daniel Lendman I figure if we all start with clear first principles, the likelihood of our straying from Father Aristotle diminishes.
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Daniel Lendman Left and right can be known by natural reason with no admixture of error by all men.
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John Ruplinger the irrational attribute of the substance of this thread has returned. I kinda wondered what mb was about up there.
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Daniel Lendman I am sorry, Scott posted and I responded in kind...
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Max Summe Daniel Lendman - that video takes me back to SP 2009 in Adrw Lng's little shack - and reminds me of excellent scotch and cigars.
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John Ruplinger i still confuse left and right. So idk.
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Daniel Lendman Heretic.
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Daniel Lendman Remarkable that fine cigars and scotch is associated with that video. I doubt the creators ever had that in mind.
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Michael Beitia Okay Daniel, I got my left and my right. I know that, from natural reason and the chirality patriarchy
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Michael Beitia I'll play Meno, where are you going?
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Samantha Cohoe Apropos of nothing, I am sad and dispirited just now because Caleb is replacing our Colorado license plates with Missouri ones.
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Daniel Lendman That's as far as I go.
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Daniel Lendman Missouri is a fine sate! They say the liitle part that kind of hangs down into Arkansas, if were ceded to Arkansas would raise the average IQ of both states.
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Daniel Lendman Which part are y'all going to?
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Peregrine Bonaventure Who's touchy this morning? "God underlies and permeates the whole of creation" is NOT what Obi is telling Luke. They are as different as left and right.
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Michael Beitia beats me, I have no sound here at "work"
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Peregrine Bonaventure Daniel, I hope you prayed over your spiritual reading of Aristotle's Metaphysics this morning, to cleanse your soul from error.
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Peregrine Bonaventure The bootheel.
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Samantha Cohoe We're in St. Louis for the year. It's hot and riot-y here, and there beer is ok but not as good as in Colorado, and of course no mountains. But actually I quite like it here.
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Daniel Lendman Well, Scott, in your honor I found this appropriately significant article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../hello-kitty-not-cat_n...
Hello Kitty Is Not A Cat Because Nothing Makes Sense Anymore
www.huffingtonpost.com
You might want to sit down for this one. Sanrio has revealed Hello Kitty -- the ...See More
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Peregrine Bonaventure Who is Scott? Do I even look like a Scott? That is so mean of you to trash Hello Kitty. Only a TAC alum would even THINK of doing that. I am shocked, SHOCKED!!!
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Isak Benedict 'And the wind shall say: "Here were decent godless people,
Their only monument the asphalt road, and a thousand lost golf balls."'
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Pater Edmund Matthew, you wrote, «But seriously, people, Pater Edmund: if you told most people that Aristotle "believed or thought there was a personal God" that would be highly misleading, no? To be at all honest, you would have to highly qualify that.»
Sure, I don't actually say that. I say Aristotle never used the word person, but he thought of God as a thinking being, which is what person means.
Then you wrote:
«One simply does not get the sense from the little we from him as regards ANYTHING in relation to God having a will, or providence, or having some kind of personal relation to human beings, etc.»
How is that relevant?
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Daniel Lendman Schade.
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Adrw Lng Squid turtle
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Peregrine Bonaventure I once knew a Scot who golfed into a wind so fierce,
His ball flew twenty yards head, but eighty in reverse.
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Pater Edmund Samantha, I totally agree with you that you are an authority on Caleb's unpublished thoughts.
Also, you wrote: "OK, so Pater Edmund, you complained that tiresome people who deny that Aristotle thought of God as a person don't likewise complain that Aristotle didn't think of humans as persons. I think that is because our first concept of a person *is* a human, and that is much of the content of the concept that we take with us when we apply it to God."
Well, I agree, but then one has the same problem with things that Aristotle actually says about God. Like thought for instance, our first concept of which comes from our own thought.
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Pater Edmund Off to Vespers.
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John Ruplinger I dont understand the fuss, Matthew. You are equivocating. Pater has been clear as to what he means. But you keep insisting on a meaning of personal that pater is not using.
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Michael Beitia Good luck getting an answer Pater.... you missed your window
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John Ruplinger personal:
1having a relationship with other rational beings.
2. Characteristic of an individual substance having reason
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Michael Beitia 3. embarrassing photographs
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Matthew J. Peterson I insist on what most people think of when they hear "personal God" - if you told most people Aristotle believed in or argued to a personal God you would obviously be misleading them based on how they would normally and naturally interpret the phrase.
Most people, when they hear the word person, think of an individual human being with reason and will, I think. One is delineating an individual as opposed to a species, and an individual of a particular kind - one with reason, and (perhaps therefore) will.
1) When one says "personal God" today, one generally means a God that relates directly to human persons. And that is nowhere in Aristotle.
2) But even if we wanted to qualify the phrase to mean "God is a person," most people hearing the phrase would think this renders him an individual with reason and will.
What this means in God's case, however, even for St. Thomas is highly qualified, of course. But even more generically: what Aristotle says - thought thinking thought that stands to the rest of the universe as first cause - is God as person in the most nub of a basic sense: insofar as he is in some way an individual and in some way has reason. IS reason. The fact that Reason/the Truth itself can be considered a person is marvelous and not apparent from what Aristotle says, especially when thought thinking thought is what causes all else to be.
What one means by person here is simply far beyond what comes to mind - it would be misleading for most without explaining in detail.
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Matthew J. Peterson I AM WHO AM is a person, of course, in some way, beyond all human notion of personhood and indeed our understanding of person could be said to derive from God's beyondpersonhood person. But in any event, to say Aristotle holds to a personal God is simply misleading given what most people will interpret that to mean.
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Daniel Lendman What does person add to nature?
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John Ruplinger i agree, matthew but do you disagree with pater's limited sense? Not "what most contemporaries first think?". I do not see any real disagreement here (except perhaps on the matter of will).
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Edward Langley Hey, if Aristotle thinks God is an efficient cause (obviously controversial), he must think that God has appetite in some sense and therefore will.
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Matthew J. Peterson But. I wouldn't disagree that thought thinking thought and serving as eternal (and immutable?!?) prime mover negates personhood, for Aristotle or otherwise. That's not what I'm saying.
So much to say, and much is at stake. One needs to see the enormous problem of how God could at all relate to human persons for Aristotle.
I think something like JA Escalante says is likely true - he saw intermediary beings something like angels, or where his contemporaries got the idea of the gods from, but he was likely very unsure about this.
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Jon Andrew Greig I apologize for the interjection, but Matthew, with your last line in mind, do you suppose the Incarnation, esp. with the Theophany in mind, contextualizes the meaning of God as person(s), at least in the distinctly Christian sense?
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Edward Langley (to add the missing premises to my abbreviated argument above:
1) a knower can only move if it has an appetite
2) will is the only "immaterial appetite"
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John Brungardt Sorry, Lauren; I'm writing my dissertation elsewhere, not on Facebook .
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Daniel Lendman COME ON, John Brungardt!!
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Edward Langley "Aristotle had no concept of the will" is another one of those claims I dislike.
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John Brungardt I will admit though, this thread is giving it a run for its money re: length. But don't worry, I'm hardly done with Chapter 1.
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: all this "he thought X, so therefore he must have thought Y" talk makes me uneasy unless accompanied by intense and fair argumentation and meticulous examination and research. That statement is fine for the Book of Faces, of course, but it would and should never get you published anywhere ever without very rigorous argument from Aristotle's texts. But you know this.
The entire problem here, people, is that by assuming Thomistotle one lays the shoddy groundwork for upending much else later on down the line, and risks misunderstanding what Aristotle does and doesn't say, and therefore risks missing the truth of things, etc.
In this example, what would appetite even mean for what Aristotle says about God in the admittedly little we have of his work? What would will mean? Here's what it would not mean: what most people think about when they think about God with a will today.
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Edward Langley (And I'm not unreflective about these things: I've had claims like these pushed at me for two years now)
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Peregrine Bonaventure I AM WHO AM is what God said to Abraham. Good section on this in Lumen Fidei. A marriage of Hebrew and Hellenic traditions, of sorts.
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John Ruplinger BUT DOES the existence of "PB" refute the first two definitions of personal i gave setting aside Michael's for the time being? That is matter for disertation.
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Matthew J. Peterson Jon Andrew Greig: Might it be a little too easy for Christians to talk about God as person and foist that into places where it isn't because they believe God came to earth as a human person? Yes. Yes indeed.
What I don't like about Thomistotle is that it evades the real problems Aristotle had, and the tensions and even contradictions he faced within his own work, and the overflowing mystery and shock and beauty and solving of seemingly insurmountable problems the Incarnation solves, etc.
It tends towards a shallow rationalism.
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Edward Langley "What would will mean? Here's what it would not mean: what most people think about when they think about God with a will today."
Well, I don't think Aquinas's position would be what most people think about a "God with a will"? I'm not even sure Aquinas's position on our own will matches what people think about will.
(assuming that we're talking about the same group of people here)
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Michael Beitia Really, I would like an answer to what the will of the unmoved mover would be like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: I'd probably agree with you and Pater Edmund and Caleb Cohoe in opposing those people - may we all do so and work together doing so throughout long and successful careers - but we will not succeed unless we are very, very careful and cautious and more rigorous than the other side.
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Edward Langley My point is, though, that I think the question of will in God comes down to the dispute over whether or not God is an efficient cause.
The talk in the De Anima about appetite is there for the sake of showing how knowledge (whether sense or intellect) produces motion in animals. It seems to me like something like that would have to transfer to God, if he produces motion as an efficient cause.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Would not the will of the unmoved mover be more like a final cause? Or would it really be like an efficient cause, as when He creates a human soul, that soul is the formal cause of the person created, but in relation to the human soul, God is an efficient cause. So God wills that each of us exists, and He does this as an efficient cause. QED.
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Matthew J. Peterson But say more about what Aristotle might think the "will" of the unmoved mover is or would be like.
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Michael Beitia ^But that's got more than unmoved mover^
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Jon Andrew Greig Matthew, in one sense that's true about the human person, but I specifically mention the Theophany where the three persons are made manifest. It seems that we have three distinct agents at work, one of which is particularly manifest as a human, while his work as a human brings forth the other two non-human agents (Father and Holy Spirit). This is a bit of a loose thought, but I wonder if whether or how that might change the context of understanding God as person.
(Again, I apologize, but I haven't worked my way through this God-awfully long thread.)
And I agree on the Thomistotle'ing wariness. Aristotle leaves enough open questions which Thomas fills in, and I think one can argue that there is an evenual consistency, but one which A's writing doesn't make clear in itself without a good commentary.
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Michael Beitia will is not equal to efficient cause
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh, yeah.
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Jon Andrew Greig (Anyway, I have to run for now. Back later.)
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Edward Langley But appetite mediates a knowing power and efficient causality based on that knowing power. Thus, if Aristotle's God acts according to his knowledge, he must have an appetite (i.e. an inclination to what he knows to be good).
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Peregrine Bonaventure So, I thought unmoved mover was subsistent existence; like a rock from which a animal might jump off of; the rock does not push the animal, it just gives the animal a solid place from which to jump. Were it not for that solid, unmoved place, the leg and joint could not work, the leg of the animal would flail in space. God is unmoved mover with respect to existence.
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John Ruplinger that is difficult but for the rest we seem all to agree. All i am saying. Let's dispute where there is real dispute and difficulty. (The will that is.) [Woah. This was to mp way up there. Sorry ]
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Michael Beitia yes let's. Will is not the same as efficient cause, despite what Ed says
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Peregrine Bonaventure But everything in God is one, so He must be all causes in all respects.
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Michael Beitia distinguo, Bonbon
See Translation
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't tink Aristotle would say anything about the will of the unmoved mover, because of the admixture of error thing.
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Peregrine Bonaventure trying... my head hurts
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Peregrine Bonaventure Aristotle would say that the final cause of Nature is the will of the umoved mover. No?
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Frank Morris the final cause of nature is survival.
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Peregrine Bonaventure I thnk Goethe said is was reproduction, hence his numerous mistresses, and the character of Faust.
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John Ruplinger But is "thought thinking on itself" manifestation of a will?
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Michael Beitia Good question, is it?
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Peregrine Bonaventure But I'm sticking to: The final cause of Nature is what God desires.
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Michael Beitia ^meaningless answer^
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John Ruplinger a movement of God to God as a desired or chosen end for its own sake?
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Michael Beitia "why did I stub my toe?"
"it is what God desires"
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Michael Beitia "it is what God desires" makes sporting events complicated
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, or, rather, the final cause of Nature is God's appetite.
You stubbed your toe because you were a stubborn fool.
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Peregrine Bonaventure God loves the perfection of Nature, so much so, He gave His only begotten Son.
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Michael Beitia ^not metaphysics^
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Michael Beitia Isn't the will of Aristotle's god contained in the imposition of the Platonic solids gnostically around the world serpent?
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Michael Beitia or rather, among?
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Edward Langley And, even if I grant that Aristotle's First Cause doesn't have will, won\t I have to admit it for the secondary causes? He says they move their spheres out of love for the first. But if they were pure floating intellects, I don't see how they could love.
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Frank Morris i thought He sent the Son to perfect nature? the whole supernatural love and forgiveness thing.
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John Ruplinger [PB liked u again, MB. Progress on 'personal' in the first sense (but we hope it dont lead to the 3rd sense. ) ]
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Frank Morris love that can conquer even death.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Among... plus we are thinking of God as First Cause.
But all this by inference and speculation. Let Aristotle answer his own test.
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Frank Morris but beware talking serpents.
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Frank Morris Aristotle ain't talking.
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Serpent, in the garden, tempted Eve,
The gravity of death to disbelieve.
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Frank Morris the serpent has faith. he just don't want to serve.
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Peregrine Bonaventure O, how grave the sin, how deep the fall,
That took the blood of Christ to rescue all!
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Frank Morris back to free will.
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Frank Morris but the garden was a metaphor, or an allegory-infused with a syllogism, or something.
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think there really may have deen a garden, and man was infused with different kinds of good knowledge from the fruit God prepared on the trees of which man was allowed to eat. There was a Euclid tree. And man had dominion over the animals, until the fall, then after the fall, while man still had some dominion over the animals, God used animals and nature as elementary lessons to help lead man back to the right path, hence the Prophet's talking donkey, and the Book of Proverbs exhortation to consider the animals which are "exceedingly wise" and Our Lord's use of animals as part of revelation. BC, Aristotle was also doing the same thing but on the admixture of error track.
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Rose M. Halpin This may have been posted before, I have no idea, the last time I looked at this it was at about 3 thousand comments...and now it's over 5. Impressive. It's an interesting Ted Talk. Thought many interested in this thread might like it:
http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong...
On being wrong
www.ted.com
Most of us will do anything to avoid being wrong. But what if we're wrong about ...See More
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Peregrine Bonaventure Odds are, it's been posted.
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John Ruplinger Can a rational being not have a will? I cannot prove this, but it doesn't seem possible. What is an intellect without a will? Can it do anything?
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Peregrine Bonaventure But I may be wrong.
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Frank Morris i'm frequently wrong. Has there been a consideration of Jewish Metaphysics, or a discussion that the word Israel has been defined as "struggle with God".
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Frank Morris intellect without a will.....
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Frank Morris can it do anything.....
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Peregrine Bonaventure Consider, now, the intellect and will,
The first is weak, the other one is ill.
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think we need to bring some Franciscans into the discussion.
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Frank Morris a child has an intellect, but the child's will is often very selfish.
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Peregrine Bonaventure So too with many adults.
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Frank Morris but an intellect without a will...wouldn't be alive-so it couldn't do anything.
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Frank Morris what do you say John Ruplinger
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Edward Langley Aquinas's position is that every intellectual being necessarily has a will. In Aristotle, it's a matter of controversy.
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Peregrine Bonaventure I think every intellect is just stuck with a will and imagination. It is what it is. A three-legged chair.
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Frank Morris but John was posing a question.
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Peregrine Bonaventure John is a three-legged chair.
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Edward Langley Frank, I don't think Peregrine Bonaventure can see John Ruplinger's comments for some reason
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Edward Langley (nor vice-versa)
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Peregrine Bonaventure Alas, I cannot. Do you have a spyglass I can look through?
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Edward Langley John Ruplinger asked several comments ago: "Can a rational being not have a will? I cannot prove this. It doesnt seem possible. What is an intellect without a will? Can it do anything?"
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Peregrine Bonaventure The human soul has three parts in unity: intellect, will and imagination. It is a three-for-one deal, which proves that God is a Jew.
These parts in unity seek truth (intellect), goodness (will) and beauty (imagination).
This is why Augustine uses syllogisms, enthymemes and metaphor in the same appeal: Unity.
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Frank Morris i sent you a friend request Ed Langely...Metaphysics intrigues moi.
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Michael Beitia but the unity of the transcendentals isn't in Aristotle, except maybe in a nascent way, and therefore can't be used to determine what Aristotle is saying.
Ed, you'd probably be right to admit it from secondary causes, however, the secondary causes move the spheres according to love of the first. It isn't clear to me that that love is reciprocal, again, in Aristotle
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John Ruplinger then, does aristotle not address the question?
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Michael Beitia not that I know of.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh, right.
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Michael Beitia But then again John, it has been a few fortnights since I've studied me some Aristoilet
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Peregrine Bonaventure God's love of Venus, thus, is urequited,
Woe the Planet, whom the Godhead spited!
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Michael Beitia ^is that metaphor or syllogism?^
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Michael Beitia So Edward, can the love from the secondary movers (gods, demons, angels) be show to have been reciprocated by the first mover? or no?
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Peregrine Bonaventure Day after shining day, turn afer turn,
The Earth, alone, loves Deus in return.
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Frank Morris many people love Deus.
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Frank Morris but symbiotic reciprocity needs more representation.
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Edward Langley I don't know if it can be demonstrated along those lines. But it still seems to me that God cannot be an efficient cause unless he desires what he causes as something good.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Did Aristotle say anthing about the rings of Saturn?
Among the Planets, I think the Earth is the only heavenly body who loves God in return, because she dutiful remains in the center of things.
But couldn't you say all the Planets love God, by allowing other things to revolve around them, by allowing rings to be formed, their mass and motion exerting a cause?
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Peregrine Bonaventure <desires what he causes as something good> Please say more.
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Frank Morris planets are inanimate....pb is having fun.
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Frank Morris edward langley many demonstrations of symbiotic reciprocity.
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Tim Cantu were there drugs in my coffee this morning? I thought I had it black but reading this is making me wonder.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Planets may be inanimate, but they have form!
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Frank Morris but they don't have will....caffiene is a drug
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Peregrine Bonaventure Planets have form without will.
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Catherine Ryland plants aren't totally inanimate right? They have a vegetative soul. They can move toward or away something beneficial or harmful. Is this crazy?
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Peregrine Bonaventure If Planets have no will, who keeps them on track, in harmony? This must be good.
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Michael Beitia Edward, the parasites in the taco I ate last night are the efficient cause of my vomiting, but that isn't an idea of the good (or really any idea at all) So maybe you mean "rational efficient cause", right?
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Peregrine Bonaventure If Planets have no form, who do they move in symphonic harmony?
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Michael Beitia They don't BonBon they just fall....... perpetual falling into the curved spacetime
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Edward Langley Yeah, efficient cause with knowledge
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oh, so the perpetual falling into curved spacetime is the cause of the harmonic relations. I see now.
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Michael Beitia nope. no harmony just free-fall
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Michael Beitia in a straight line (along a geodesic)
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Edward Langley That's an atheistic cosmology
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Edward Langley Everyone knows that angels carry the planets along
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Michael Beitia atheistic??? no way! the angels are just shoving them down
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Michael Beitia with a matterless form ephemeral phlogiston plunger
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Peregrine Bonaventure Free falling. Hence, the Tom Petty song.
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John Ruplinger YES. I still am fond of the angel thesis. Call me nostalgic or romanic. I dont care. I just dont drink Newton's koolaid. Too many difficlties and some pretty weighty assumptions.
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Michael Beitia Newton was just an approximation, without the benefit of any causality. his Koolaid tastes bad. We rock the general relativity fruit punch
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Peregrine Bonaventure I once knew a Gard'ner, his name was Plant. He had a rational soul.
But his grapevine said to the little ant, now let's go on a stroll.
(My love, now let's go on a stroll.)
Said the little ant to the grapevine 'Dear, what lovely long legs you have,'
My legs are useful, my little ant, and better my God to love,
(And better my God to love.)
For I walk to Church on Sunday, and afterwards to brunch,
Where my fruit it good, it's understood, and tasty and sweet to munch.
(And tasty and sweet to munch.)
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Peregrine Bonaventure For my firstfruits go to the vintner. And his, in turn, to the priest;
And with that bread, His Body, instead, attend the Glorious Feast.
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Michael Beitia Catherine, is it clear that the vegetative soul is individual as well? St. Thomas writes that "act of existing" is part of man's essence, in which case the immortal soul follows. for the vegetative (and quite possibly the animal - no clear thoughts yet) it isn't clear to me that the soul of a plant exists beyond the species level, as a principle of that sort of plant.
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Peregrine Bonaventure The soul of a plant is induced fom the potency of its matter. That's what I was told to believe.
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Michael Beitia really? I thought soul was the substantial form of the plant (or whatever) whereas the matter is what individuates
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes.^
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Michael Beitia So Daniel, is it clear that Aristotle thinks that plants have individual souls, and can I tell my right from left?
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Daniel Lendman I think so.
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Daniel Lendman I mean, they "aren't" very much, so there isn't a very strong unity in plants.
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Michael Beitia and in TAC grads (I jest, I jest)
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Samantha Cohoe Opposition to Peregrine Bonaventure is the principle of unity in TAC grads
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Michael Beitia Final cause?
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Samantha Cohoe clearly.
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Michael Beitia this seems to be petering out we need someone to come in and say something crazy... Peterson tell me again how the American founding fathers had a good notion of the common good and Aristotle's Politics?
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Daniel Lendman Let's talk about NFP
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Samantha Cohoe !!!!
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Samantha Cohoe That would be so awesome!!!
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Edward Langley What Would Aaron Dunkel Say?
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Daniel Lendman As far as I can tell, St. Paul and the Fathers would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids conception is inherently sinful. Although, only venially so.
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John Ruplinger NFP is manichean. DEF! that's Augustine and its his feast. QED ! (Just stirring troubles. I apologize.)
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Samantha Cohoe To what in Paul's writings to you refer, Daniel?
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John Ruplinger Daniel is probably right though in seriousness. It is permitted today. Augustine seems a bit stronger agin it.
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Tim Cantu #yesallperiodicallyabstainingcouples
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John Ruplinger mb: "say something crazy" = jr's discussion killer / thread
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Tim Cantu I think all of you are sinners, either because you use NFP inappropriately or for other sinful reasons.
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Matthew J. Peterson Oh $@/$...this is like the part on the roller coaster just before....
Clickclickclickclickclick
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Matthew J. Peterson I can't believe I'm hearing this. But really, why should I be surprised?
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Catherine Ryland Just to add to the madness: https://www.facebook.com/angelvivaldi/photos/a.10153261369530494.1073741826.206070425493/10154503095485494/?type=1
Mobile Uploads
Truth!
By: Angel Vivaldi
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Peregrine Bonaventure A soul of a plant comes from its material generation, not from God. The matter is what individuates one plant from another. The soul of man comes from outside of matter.
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Tim Cantu Can plants use NFP? It's raining and I'm bored.
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Peregrine Bonaventure The would violate Goethe's doctrine.
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Samantha Cohoe And let's just get this out there: the Fathers had ALL KINDS of whack ideas about sex and women. Good thing y'all are only required to revere them as examples of heroic virtue, right?
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Peregrine informs TAC alum by inverse proportionality.
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Catherine Ryland ^Yes!
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Samantha Cohoe I'm concerned that I spelled whack wrong.
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Edward Langley Actually, the consensus patrium is infallible.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Woe to women who embrace chauvanistic entitlement syndrome!
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Edward Langley (but perhaps I missed the sarcasm?)
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Samantha Cohoe Nope I'm completely serious
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Peregrine Bonaventure CES
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John Ruplinger I REALLY like what the Fathers said on sex. Great stuff im'h'o.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Freud and Goethe, sitting in a tree...
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Edward Langley "Father" and "Doctor" are titles given to people because they are theological authorities. "Saint" merely indicates that they were exemplary in some way (in Thomas Becket's case, for example, standing up for the Church's rights before the onslaught of the state).
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Peregrine Bonaventure St. Therese, Little Flower, Doctor of the Church!
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I missed the part wherein they were all against NFP.
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Samantha Cohoe Well, if you are required to take every teaching of Augustine (inter alia) on sex and women as authoritative, then you are seriously out of luck, but a lot of them massively contradict more recent teachings.
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Edward Langley No, we are required to take the points on which all the Fathers agree as definitive.
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Tim Cantu I think I need an adult.
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Peregrine Bonaventure My mom told me never to discuss sex with women.
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Samantha Cohoe Then run along
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Edward Langley And, when deciding an argument based on authorities, the Fathers trump nearly everyone else (except the Magisterium and Scripture)
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Edward Langley (If this NFP discussion runs out of steam, we could always discuss this: http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/Scotus%20-%20Vat%2016.pdf)
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Matthew J. Peterson And, when discussing sex, as with booze, we are vastly superior to Protestantism so let's not ruin that by becoming puritanical remnantists re the issue.
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Adrw Lng It was only a matter of time with this thread
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Peregrine Bonaventure Oedipus' mom, upon learning from her Shrink that her son may have had a certain psychosis, replied:
Oedipus-schmoedipus! as long as he loved his mother.
(ba-da-bum!)
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Peregrine Bonaventure I just said not "talk" about it.
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John Ruplinger not puritannical. I dont see that in Augustine, what i have read. I just think our heads are so in the gutter we cant see what he is saying.
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Edward Langley But I think Daniel Lendman is our new resident troll
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Peregrine Bonaventure And now, let us go now, you and I, to that really steamy section of The Wasteland:
She turns and looks a moment in the glass,
Hardly aware of her departed lover;
Her brain allows one half-formed thought to pass:
“Well now that’s done: and I’m glad it’s over.”
When lovely woman stoops to folly and
Paces about her room again, alone,
She smoothes her hair with automatic hand,
And puts a record on the gramophone.
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John Boyer Ed, I see you trying to pawn off homework as thread fodder.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Smantha Cohen is the new troll, did you catch the snark?
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John Ruplinger Honestly we are worse than pagans in this. At least many of them respected early Christians and some were even in awe. Today we cant even fathom what they said.
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Edward Langley Peregrine still can't spell people's names, Michael
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catch the witness, catch the spark,
Catch the spirit, catch the snark.
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Samantha Cohoe Wow, was that Wasteland quote directed at me?
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Peregrine Bonaventure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcyqIA2eJww
Rush - Tom Sawyer (Live In Holland) WIDESCREEN 720p
The "best" opening to a concert ever.................Lil' Rush rules!!
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Peregrine Bonaventure She stoops to conquer.
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John Ruplinger I don't think Augustine was authoratative but he is helpful and interesting. Chrysostum is more indulgent. Much later, but Liguori is great.
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Edward Langley One of Peregrine's defining characteristics, in fact it's his haeccitas I think, is his remarkable ability to evade questions.
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John Ruplinger wasteland?
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Aaron Dunkel Sorry....was at lunch when I was tagged....but I have so much to share on this discussion of sex and NFP
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Aaron Dunkel For one....the onus is on the man Gen 38:10
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Samantha Cohoe I think he's casting aspersions on my virtue, but whatever.
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Aaron Dunkel aspereges me
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Aaron Dunkel Hi Sam! I didn't realize you were on this thread...How have you and Caleb been?
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Joel HF The fathers are only infallible when unanimous and when interpreting scripture, I thought. Am I off there?
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Edward Langley Not sure, I thought that unanimity was the only requirement.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Grandparents for Responsible Use of NFP, Unite!
(GRUNFP)
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Aaron Dunkel I think Ed is correct. Although, it seems that unanimity is probably accidental....speaking with the voice of the Church would be essential for infallibility regarding Faith and morals. Unanimity, it seems, is the standard by which it is judged that they speak with the voice of the Church.
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John Ruplinger i suspect Edward is right. They merit respect and an open mind always though.
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Aaron Dunkel I think you would probably say the same thing if there was unanimous consent amongst the cult of the Faithful.
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Edward Langley Although VI possibly shows me to be wrong:
"8. Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy Scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, we renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that in matters of faith and morals, belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true one, which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture.
9. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the fathers."
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John Ruplinger None are so close minded as those who profess but one thing, namely to have an open mind.
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Peregrine Bonaventure O, the folly of liberally educated women!
They believe they've earned the right to talk about any subject under the sun!
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John Ruplinger But VI is only speaking about Scripture there.
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Edward Langley Yeah, but it's the only source I've found so far that mentions the consensus patrium
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Peregrine Bonaventure Just kidding. Pretending to be an entitled Victorian man of chauvanistic leisure.
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John Ruplinger nothing in Denzinger?
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Edward Langley I haven't had time to look carefully
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Samantha Cohoe We're doing well, Aaron, how about you?
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Samantha Cohoe I would think it would be very hard to establish much that was actually unanimous among the church fathers.
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Edward Langley Another interesting question is the status of the text where St. Paul indicates that he isn't speaking authoritatively.
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Samantha Cohoe My point was that Daniel, who has conveniently vanished, could find a lot of quotes from the Fathers that say messed up things about women and sex and marriage, and still not have established much of anything
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Samantha Cohoe And by "messed up" I guess I mean "incorrect and also personally upsetting to me"
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Joshua Kenz I will note that up through the mid1950's there was a serious position held by many theologians that condemned NFP. Castii Conubii es not definitively resolve it, as neither it does castration of criminals. These theologians argued that, because of a probable opinion that it was permitted existed a confessor could not impose his view that it was not permitted on a penitent acting in good faith, but that in fact NFP was not justifiable and one ought not encourage it.
I point this out because I think rather than taking objections seriously, there is an assumption of a magisterial rubber stamp approving NFP... while there is something closer to that with the last few popes, the awareness of even recent and respected opposition should give pause and at least urge the answering of objections, rather than mere dismissal.
One of my top moments of frustration in theology at TAC was when we hit Augustine on make up and dyed hair. While I found and find Aquinas's view more tenable, almost every single student shrieked and rejected it out of hand in the exact manner the modern world does with our condemnation of contraception. Exactly the same. So of course I defended Augustine, while disagreeing with him....the willingness to think, "well just as I condemn things in the world and the world is so blind it doesn't fathom the reasons, maybe I too have blindness, maybe a value of ancient authors is that they stand outside of our context and provide a challenge, intellectually and moral to our assumptions."
But when that actually happened, by a saint, just shrieking and out of hand rejection....
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Joshua Kenz Of course Augustine is authoritative....hello, Church Father, Doctor of the Church...he has auctoritas dripping off him....he may not be conclusive by himself, but authority he has in spades...
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Samantha Cohoe Listen, I am really not on a crusade here. If you want I can dig up some quotes I read grad school that were troubling to me. But do you guys really need me to do that? Can we not agree that a lot of the Fathers, despite being awesome and important and heroic examples of virtue, were also products of their times who had some unfortunate views of women and sex? No?
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John Ruplinger Thank you, Joshua. . . . (Note this is not new. Chrysostom was likely martyred bc the empress took offense at his preaching on these matters. When examined these teachings have the support of reason and faith. We give them no fair hearing.
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JA Escalante Go Samantha!
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Peregrine Bonaventure I don't think there was a group of early desert gals who were comparable to the National Organization of Women. Nothing similar.
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John Ruplinger i havent read that much. But they exude sound reason and derive from principles we in blindness non comprehenderunt.
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JA Escalante they were also half nuts. And Roman Catholics don't really need to pretend otherwise; Scholasticism vastly improved on the ancient writers in many ways, and it's only a post Vatican II thing to get all gooey over the Fathers
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John Ruplinger Samantha, they are "hard sayings" which you acknowledged above.
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I think it sucks that one of my theological heroes "fail(ed) to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
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Joshua Kenz Are we not also products of our time, with some also very unfortunate views? I refuse to write off any position of the Fathers under such a blanket statement. I need to know what the position is and the arguments for it, before I dare judge for it is just as possible that I am the one to be judged unfortunate.
While I do agree some views that end up as wrong are also as you say, too many write off anything they don't like under that same rubric...so forget that rubric, and only reject after a fair appraisal.
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JA Escalante this isn't bad as a chronicle of patristic weirdness on the question of gender and sex:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Concept-Woman.../dp/0802842704
The Concept of Woman: The Aristotelian Revolution, 750 B.C. - A. D. 1250
www.amazon.com
This pioneering study by Sister Prudence Allen traces the concept of woman in re...See More
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not saying they should be rejected because they are "hard"
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JA Escalante and sure, we should avoid what Lewis calls chronological snobbery; but when you have pagan writers sometimes sounding much saner about women than some ancient Christian writers, you know its not just a question of anachronism
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Joshua Kenz This is true, but too many say that and then proceed to use it to ignore anything hard...I am not accusing Mrs. Cohoe of that. Merely making a warning. And because we may, through such snobbery, mistake the sense or be wrong about it being wrong, we should err on the side of a reverential reading. As Thomas always did.
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John Ruplinger not so JA. "Vastly"? corrected disagreement, yes.
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JA Escalante VASTLY
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JA Escalante the Fathers are very often a mess argumentatively speaking
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John Ruplinger Chrysostum? really? less sane?
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JA Escalante did I single out Chrysostom? I said "some ancient Christian writers"
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Joshua Kenz Well that is true... systematic thinking was left to those, like Thomas, trying to sum up their work...John Chrysostom is a great example, commenting on "take a little wine" and moving from drunkness not wine is a sin, to advice about sanctifying you hand by hitting blasphemers, and then back to wine again, and then to pastoral solicitude, and then....
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Joshua Kenz Clement of Alexandria, cough, cough
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Peregrine Bonaventure My head would become unscrewed if I did not have my wife. And I trust I am of some small use to her.
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Samantha Cohoe I plead not guilty to the charge of chronological snobbery that apparently no one has made against me. I am merely excusing the Fathers for some of the terrible things they thought about women by noting that those were easier mistakes to make in those days than now.
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JA Escalante I was replying to Joshua there, Samantha
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Samantha Cohoe Note that this is an excuse that none of you have
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JA Escalante and I'm not sure they were *that* much easier to make
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I know JA
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Samantha Cohoe You're my only friend
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Fathers may have had no use for women in one sense; they needed Holy Mother the Church in another. Hence: a massive portion of Her infallible dogmatic theology please.
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John Ruplinger no, idk about Clement. And not all of Chrysostum is so. He was a preacher first (and orator). What was the purpose and audience?
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Joshua Kenz WRT NFP
If you can find them
Fr. Orville Griese. "The Rhythm In Marriage And Christian Morality"
Msgr. McFadden has an article in (I believe) the 1954 Thomist covering the debate and its history. Unfortunately I have all of the Thomist issues from 1939, 1940, 1965-2008....no 1950's
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John Ruplinger caeci caecos ducunt, sicut dixisti, Joshua.
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Samantha Cohoe All I'm saying is, I hope Big Angry doesn't come back here with some cherry-picked quotes from the Fathers and think he has proved that use of NFP is sinful. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING
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Samantha Cohoe Not that I have a dog in *this* fight, either. Unless we re-convert of course.
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John Ruplinger what horror of horrors did they say, Samantha . . . as one who has read little. But to be fair maybe something from Augustine or Chrysostum.
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David Upham Will this thread hit 10,000?
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Joshua Kenz Oh and in 1937 the Holy Office issued a warning about NFP and promoting it (called the rhythm method then), that it coudl lead to denial of the marital debt. Obviously any moral version must hold that both parties consent, because the reasons for NFP would not negate the marriage debt.
FWIW, Prümmer speaks very cautiously of NFP. He first says a couple who is overly burdened, in dire straits, medical issues, should place their hope in God. If they reckon it necessary, live in complete continence. He then adds, the note from the Sacred Penitentiary in 1880 (first mention by the magisterium, namely that a couple strongly tempted to onanism, may be left in good faith wrt the rhythm method) and presents it as a possibility rather reservedly. Though in the edition I have the appendix adds to that section with the teaching of Pius XI and XII (the original edition was before both)
There are some very serious objections to NFP. And it is hard to morally differentiate it from actions that are sinful. I do think throughout the ages, from the Fathers to now, there has always been two schools of thought about the marital act. You can see it in authors that condemned relations during pregnancy or menstruation and other definitive infertile periods.....While a cherry picked quote from a Father does not settle the debate, and is unlikely exactly apropos, I am just saying these divisions raise unresolved matters that should be taken seriously
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Samantha Cohoe I already pulled out one quote, above, pretty symptomatic of the overall problem I thought
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Peregrine Bonaventure Yes, this thread will go past 10,000, and this is a true statement, purged of error, because I have been reading Aristotle in a prayerful manner.
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John Ruplinger AT the start of this thread i believe a fair statement regarding its sinfulness was expressed. Indeed culpability may be nil for many bc of so much confusion.
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Peregrine Bonaventure Catholic Women rise up against the Desert Fathers!
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Peregrine Bonaventure Or is it dessert?
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Joshua Kenz To be clear, until just now half of the comment over the last two hours were not visible to me....now some of the comments make a heck of a lot more sense
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Samantha Cohoe Dude, I am not a Catholic
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John Ruplinger i just noticed
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Joshua Kenz I think FB was having trouble temporalizing so much TNET, cutting half of the comments....
And so? I mean, so what that you are not Catholic...the relvancy of my point remains, that even relatively recently NFP was not de facto accepted, but reputable authorities had issue with it. Just meaning you should give a fair shake to the arguments.
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John Ruplinger why so angry, then?
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Joshua Kenz Who's angry? I am just annoyed at commenting on a different conversation than the one the people I was conversing with were having (it was almost every other comment cut!)
Oh wait, you aren't talking to me are you?
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Michael Beitia So let me get this straight...... married couples are required to procreate as often as possible?
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Joshua Kenz Like bunnies....that is definitely what I am saying /sarc (NB I think NFP morally licit for grave reasons, just recognize that it is not "obvious" that it is)
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Michael Beitia so there are occasions where not having sex is licit.
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Joshua Kenz Such as in Church
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Michael Beitia or at work, probably
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Joshua Kenz While eating, while walking the dog
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Joshua Kenz Depends on the work...at USC I don't know....it might be obligatory....
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Samantha Cohoe I'm only angry at PB, who quoted the Wasteland at me disrespectfully
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Michael Beitia Is sex a good thing that comes from being married (licitly?)
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Michael Beitia The nice thing about (finally) becoming an adult is I get to have dessert when I want. So I have dessert EVERY SINGLE DAY
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Peregrine Bonaventure Goodness no, Samantha, that was honestly not aimed at you! Sorry if it gave that impression.
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Michael Beitia (except on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday)
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John Ruplinger (NB: I cant see ANY of pb's posts)
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Joshua Kenz Oh, I thought dessert=sex in that comment....you can have that even of those days!
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Joshua Kenz NB Neither can I see Peregrine....have had him blocked since my first comment
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Michael Beitia but I'm not required to, right?
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Joshua Kenz Only if your wife requests the debt
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Michael Beitia and if she doesn't?
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Peregrine Bonaventure The Victorian "she stoops to conquer" was for you. That is as virtuous as you are, and that is virtuous indeed. The TS Elliot section unmasks some of the banality of modernism. That is different.
I suppose there is some subtext in the feminine animus against the Church Fathers.
I do not know why people read them outside of the context of Holy Mother Church.
Compared with the dogmatic theology of the Church, the Church Fathers are individual players.
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Joshua Kenz Then you are free Mr. Bundy
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Joshua Kenz Sorry bad 90's reference there
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Michael Beitia the best thing about the Church Fathers is you can dig up pretty much any quote for any crackpot theological position
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JA Escalante ^exactly
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Michael Beitia Especially matters dealing with biology
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John Ruplinger not really. MB. Do they justify crack or pot?
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Michael Beitia But more to the point, if we decided to abstain, on any day, for any reason, where is the moral ambiguity?
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Michael Beitia not really what?
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John Ruplinger the reason for abstention.
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Matthew J. Peterson "The debt must be PAID."
"But what if the rent is too damn high?"
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Joshua Kenz It is in the intention...some moralist said, e.g., abstaining completely for a health reason was fine, but abstaining only on days where she might be fertile, and not on days she is not is different
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Michael Beitia why?
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Max Summe Does having sex on infertile days amount to an act that deliberately avoids conception?
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Michael Beitia I mean, if a Bears game runs late on a Monday night, that's cool, right?
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Joshua Kenz Yes
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Joshua Kenz That is the intention, and what you are trying to do
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Joshua Kenz The question is whether it changes the object of the act.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure No, it's not an exact science. There is admixture of error.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Max Summe I don't think that really follows.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but the simple act of sex on any day is (without barriers or chemicals) is not avoiding conception
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I've never pondered these distinctions.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^you can say that again^
August 28 at 5:00pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz It doesn't follow, it is the presumption of the thing. You mean not to get pregnant, so you plan not to have sex on those days...or is NFP doing something else? Is it some game I am ignorant of?
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Max Summe The act itself considered alone without contraception is not avoiding conception. Something else must go along with it.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^what he said^
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Max Summe Such as contraceptives or onanism...etc.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia like I just said
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Peregrine Bonaventure I've never pondered these distinctions. My wife doesn't give me a spare moment.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz It isn't that simple...leaving aside that intention and circumstance can make it a mortal sin, the object of the act is not so simply defined as you are doing
August 28 at 5:00pm · Unlike · 1
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Max Summe It's in the word "intend"
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Max Summe Sometimes the word intend is not meant subjectively - like when we talk about the priest intending what the Church intends with the sacraments.
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Fornication is just sex after all...nothing immoral about sex...but we say that it differs in its OBJECT not merely circumstance
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Yes but lets not get too far off topic
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz What are you talking about? 1 The priest does not have to intend what the Church intends. That is heresy
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like
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Max Summe I don't want this to suddenly be about fornication
August 28 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's why I said "licit", which all of the above assumes marriage
August 28 at 5:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz 2. You are ignoring the question of what the object of the act is
August 28 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz 3. I have no idea what you think moral intention means
August 28 at 5:38pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it is a curious thing- the Trad-ish argument against NFP works by looking at the intent of sexual activity over the month as a whole, not just each act in isolation (because as Max and Mike point out, that's just "abstinence" then); whereas the argument against contraception does the opposite, it argues from the nature (so the argument goes) of the discrete act, regardless of overall intention (that is, regardless of intention for generously fruitful marriage, each act cannot ever be modified to frustrate the natural end). Just an observation
August 28 at 5:39pm · Like
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Max Summe Sigh - okay. Since we're numbering things.
August 28 at 5:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Let's talk about sex, baybee, let's talk about...
August 28 at 5:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia NOT YOU AND ME
August 28 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Peregrine is actually correct about the teaching of the Catholic Church there
August 28 at 5:40pm · Like
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Max Summe Yeah - I guess I'm trying to make a subtle point and I don't have the necessary words at my disposal right now.
August 28 at 5:40pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante NFP is only allowed for grave hardship; though the criteria of that aren't given clearly
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Did your wife have the baby yet, Max?
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like
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Max Summe Joshua Kenz - re priest intending what the Church intends - I know I've seen that formulation - but the word intent does not mean what it means normally when we think about intention....
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you're welcome, Pope Peregrine
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe PB - you really are nothing but a troll, amirite?
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia JAson, that would be a prudential matter
August 28 at 5:41pm · Like
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Max Summe No baby yet - otherwise I wouldn't be here....
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That formulation is perahps necessary for an orthodox priest, not for a valid sacrament.
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante not entirely prudential
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I exaggerated by calling it heretical
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante there are rules informing the prudence there
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Well, there are always clear cut areas and grey areas
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Max Summe no - i think it had something to do with sacraments when the priest slightly botches the formulation....
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante of course I have no dog in this fight
August 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Max Summe anyway - i need to get back to doing something that resembles work.
August 28 at 5:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia me neither. A well formed conscience and the guidance of an orthodox spiritual director kind of remove the dog fighting
August 28 at 5:43pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz A priest might not believe in transubstantiation, but the sacrament is still valid as long as he intends to do wht the Church does....which in his mind might simply be a community meal....just as even an atheist might validly baptise, while believing it all BS, because he intends to do what the Church does, namely a baptism, even though he thinks that is hogwash
August 28 at 5:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia I just like to argue
August 28 at 5:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there I said it
August 28 at 5:44pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Who doesn't? Endorphins for everyone
August 28 at 5:44pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Beitia, NO! really?
August 28 at 5:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz But seriously, if you guys ever can, those articles I mention earlier are very good.
August 28 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua pm me those please
August 28 at 5:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia some of these people may not know me (and none in the Biblical sense, Mr. Bonbon
August 28 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante closing in on 6000 comments deep of Rabelaisian madness, alumni!
August 28 at 5:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Wait - it's not cool to use NFP so I can save up to buy a Water Jet Pack?
http://www.gizmag.com/x-jetpacks-hydro-jetpack/30776/
X-Jetpacks tweaks the ride of the hydro jetpack
First, we saw the JetLev-Flyer, then the Flyboard, and...
GIZMAG.COM
August 28 at 5:46pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz That, I believe, is a grave reason
August 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'm saving up for new socks.
August 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson OK, OK. But what about a Tesla? I mean, THAT'S good for the ENVIRONMENT.
August 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia no, you're still a jerk
August 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and wrong
August 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Joshua Kenz: I'd be interested in the articles as well - go ahead, shoot.
August 28 at 5:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Jerkegrine
August 28 at 5:50pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Jerkegrine Wrongaventure
August 28 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia glad I could help
August 28 at 5:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Isn't it quite?
August 28 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict So very just.
August 28 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and accurate!
August 28 at 5:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Nine out of ten Doctors of the Church agree! A dogma a day keeps the Peregrine away.
August 28 at 5:53pm · Like
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Megan Caughron [Things seemed to have gone VERY Smoker-Patio-ish since I last noted this thread...... Play nice, boys.]
August 28 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Megan? Really? You're asking me to play nice? It didn't work 18 years ago, it isn't going to work now
August 28 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Nice nice very nice
August 28 at 5:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Seriously though
1. If a couple is sterile, temporarily or otherwise, still the nature of the act they are doing is procreative and ence licit, in that regard
2. If a couple contracepts, that changes the nature of the act, the object of the act. It is sodomitical in a sense, and not procreative. Not merely the intention, but the object changes
Another example
1. A married couple does the act, it is one thing
2. An unmarried couple does it, the object changes, not merely the circumstances. The claim is that marriage affects what the act is
Another example
1. I am not eating now, but you wouldn't say I am fasting merely because I do not eat continiously
2. I choose to not eat for a day ad gloriam Dei. That is fasting. The abstention from food is common to both my not-eating between lunch and dinner and my not eating during a day, but they are not the same things. The object differs
1. A couple is not having sex right at this moment, but we do not call non-sex abstention
2. A couple chooses to abstain on those days that are fertile, and not on infertile days. We call that periodic continence or abstaining. The object very clearly differs
Another example
1. I choose to not eat on Friday for God- I am fasting
2. I choose to not eat in order to lose weight- I am dieting.
The objects, not merely the intention, are different
1. We abstain for a month are two for health reasons or prayer
2. We abstain only on fertile days to avoid getting pregnant....is it that absurd that someone, like the dieting/fasting example, might think these are different objects, not just intents?
August 28 at 5:55pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict I do wish we could all smoke together
August 28 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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Megan Caughron Actually, I just realized what the discussion is. ... I take it back. Have at it!
August 28 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger WHAT IS PB saying?
August 28 at 5:58pm · Like
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Megan Caughron Were I talking to you, Mike, I would make an appeal for just being Mike-nice. (A subset of nice, which is not really nice, but which is also not Mike-not-nice.)
August 28 at 5:59pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict He just said: "At least I'm right about TAC not reading a responsible amount of doctrine."
August 28 at 5:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Which of course he's not right about.
August 28 at 5:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Peregrine-- I'll just pretend I believe you so my husband doesn't have to come on here and challenge you to a duel or some such thing.
August 28 at 6:00pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger but why the sharp words?
August 28 at 6:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not sure it's responsible for him to read.
August 28 at 6:00pm · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so Peregrine, if TAC's founding documents teach heresy, aren't you bound to denounce that to the local ordinary? And if you've already attempted that, how'd that work out for you?
August 28 at 6:01pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Because he's got the dull words handled.
August 28 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - he is now just listing all the things he thinks he's right about.
August 28 at 6:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia again
August 28 at 6:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict And PB, you better not ignore what JA just asked you.
August 28 at 6:02pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia re-crap? I thought it was more word-vomit
August 28 at 6:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante seriously Peregrine, I think we can get the email of the local ordinary for you, and I think you're bound in conscience to denounce TAC for public pertinacious heresy
August 28 at 6:02pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so go for it, Peregrine! I'm sure you can't wait to be vindicated at last!
August 28 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Peregrine suffers from digital logorrhea.
August 28 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joshua Kenz, I have a response, but it is getting lost in ad hominem, silliness and JA's critique
August 28 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and it's dinner time
August 28 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh you do need to report material heresy, to the one involved; and then if they don't accept fraternal correction, it becomes formal. None of the alums have accepted your fraternal correction, so now you're countenancing formal heresy
August 28 at 6:05pm · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante i was presuming that you had done the right thing and told TAC about its material heresy as soon as you discovered it; and certainly you've gone on about it to alums on FB for months now. Its become by now quite public, and formal and pertinacious; so walk the walk or quit talking the talk. Call the ordinary, see how that works out for you
August 28 at 6:08pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict There is nothing underhanded about anything I am saying, Peregrine. I have challenged you overtly, and repeatedly - if impatiently. You have engaged in evasion, self-righteousness and flagrant Pharisaical superiority.
You've also continued to argue extreme claims to the point of ridiculousness. Either that or you've been dishonest and sophistical in your argumentation.
You do not appear to have any concept of the mean. Your Odysseus sails either straight for Charybdis or for Scylla.
Can no one teach you anything? Do you already know everything? I have not seen you once say anything like "Wow, I didn't think of that! Cool!" or "I see what you mean now!" or "You know what, I might have been wrong about that!"
Do you really believe that you know everything? Do you?
August 28 at 6:12pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it would be discipline, Peregrine, not dogma
August 28 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you know, distinctions...like the one between physics and metaphysics
August 28 at 6:13pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict ^The difference there is exactly one meta. Not two metas - one meta.
August 28 at 6:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but many kinds of meat. I distinguish between pastor and carnitas
August 28 at 6:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Bonbon: "but they both come from a pig, therefore they are the same thing" magisterium magisterium
August 28 at 6:15pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict MAAAAAGISTEEEEERIUUUUUUUM
August 28 at 6:16pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ^in a braveheart voice?^
August 28 at 6:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes, as Wrongaventure draws and quarters me on the gibbet of holistic sacred theology
August 28 at 6:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm not angry, Peregrine, I am filled with pity for you.
August 28 at 6:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes Isak quite:
http://energymuse.com/.../2013/08/crystalhealing-1.jpg
ENERGYMUSE.COM
August 28 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I am actually laughing right now. . . mostly at Mr. Bonbon
August 28 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i am out of kalua
August 28 at 6:19pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer I'm slacking today on padding this thing.
August 28 at 6:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I really wish you could see the diatribe John
August 28 at 6:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What you just said is bullshit, Peregrine. No one has the right to be wrong. Rights only exist because duties to others are prior. Your duty is conformity to the truth. Therefore mere expression of your conscience, right or wrong, formed or unformed, is not a right at all.
Concede the point.
August 28 at 6:21pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And you are still making unfounded universal claims about what TAC produces. Are you saying that all TAC graduates are alike in this way, or are you saying there's merely a tendency? Let's take this bit by bit. Do the distinction dance with me.
August 28 at 6:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger WOW strange statement from the magisterium
August 28 at 6:23pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John, he said: "Then respect the fact that I live in a free country, and I am free to express my conscience, and my conscience tells me that TAC produces an arrogant alum quite ignorant of much dogmatic truth."
I'm saying that's bullshit, and I don't have to respect bullshit.
August 28 at 6:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no, we resort to foul language because of poor impulse control
August 28 at 6:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Erik Bootsma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9erulmi_4
Or we've seen Lebowski way too many times.
Do you have to use so many cuss words?
It speaks for itself
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 6:26pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger isak. I inferred it from your prior post. But thanks.
August 28 at 6:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wrong again, you cheeky bugger. Isak, one example of TAC alum, uses colorful language when the force of the point requires it. My legs are fine, thank you very much.
August 28 at 6:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I like to think of my swearing as seasoning... like pepper. Otherwise the food of my wisdom is sooo bland
August 28 at 6:27pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict And you know what Peregrine? Better noisome vocalizations than noisome undergoings. Your thoughts are foul, sir.
August 28 at 6:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Have you provoked the Linda Blair version of Sir Bonbon yet?
August 28 at 6:29pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Say, did PB ever recant his assertion of heresy a while back?
August 28 at 6:30pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict No he did not Tim. And I think his clear lack of ability to respond to my objections speaks volumes more than his evasions.
August 28 at 6:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia never been better, and you, good Sir Bonbon?
August 28 at 6:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger INABILITY is the word.
August 28 at 6:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And look at that - he wants me to respect that he is free to express his conscience, because he lives in a free contrary - but he won't respect my use of the word "bullshit" to describe the piles of dung he's heaping on TAC graduates.
He's a self-contradicting hypocrite.
August 28 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Guys, guys - I'm sure, given an infinite number of comments, we'll be able to sort this all out.
August 28 at 6:38pm · Edited · Like · 8
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Isak Benedict Yeah it's not like they teach you that at Mass in the campus chapel or anything...
August 28 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict It would be a waste of time. The flames would get tired of trying to consume you.
August 28 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu A big group of alums accused you of heresy because you quoted something and endorsed it and the thing quoted was, in fact, presented as heresy in the document in which it appeared. Despite the fact that you were participating in the thread at the time, you pretended no one had raised the question and did not even acknowledge its existence.
August 28 at 6:37pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Go reflect on what it means to have a "right" to anything, Pope Peregrine.
August 28 at 6:38pm · Like
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Frank Morris writing to Antipater, Aristotle noted: "the more i am by myself, and alone, the fonder I have become of myths."
August 28 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ^I like that so much.^
August 28 at 6:39pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris and he set up life size statues in Stagira to Zeus and Athena, the Saviors.
August 28 at 6:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Man alive...I could use a beer.
August 28 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris a case would be a start, and some cigars.
August 28 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *facepalm*
August 28 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You missed the point, PB. Go to the chapel.
August 28 at 6:44pm · Like
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Tim Cantu No, you did not. I find it difficult to believe you could have forgotten this.
August 28 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Believing one's own made-up versions of the truth is a classic trait of sociopaths.
August 28 at 6:48pm · Like
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Frank Morris i think pb has a good case Isak.
August 28 at 6:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Pseudologia fantastica. I pity you, Peregrine.
August 28 at 6:49pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Because we are seekers of the truth, and that we may be clear, here is what I am speaking of. The image is the accusation, which was repeated to you by different people. The quoted passage is--if I traced the discussion correctly, and if I recall Pater Edmund's citation correctly--part of the formal heresy which Bautain was forced to renounce. To my knowledge, it appears you have not recanted, which is what I am asking.
As to the maturity of my questioning, I leave that for others to judge.
August 28 at 6:51pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris "reason without grace serves an admixture of error".....sounds accurate to moi.
August 28 at 6:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Stop making brash generalizations about an entire alumni, stop refusing to admit when a good point has been made, stop mocking the intelligence of people on this thread kinder than I, stop announcing how right you are at every opportunity you get, stop avoiding questions, and maybe we can have a conversation.
August 28 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris Pater Edmund identified heresy...
August 28 at 6:54pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris paging Pater Edmund
August 28 at 6:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Lack of quality in my argument." Bah. To refute His Holiness The Peregrine, a quality argument is not what's necessary.
August 28 at 6:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict And the maturity of Tim's questioning is clear and admirable.
August 28 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I'm sure CC teaches logic which is why I am baffled that PB persists in making generalizations about TAC alumni.
August 28 at 7:00pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Well, more specifically he said you were asserting heresy by citing the quotation favorably. But close enough.
August 28 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris i think Pater identified heresy....but calling someone a heretic is a different monkey.
August 28 at 7:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Megan - that right there is all I want him to stop, ultimately. It amounts to a form of bigotry and I won't abide it.
August 28 at 7:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I imagine Pater Edmund is sleeping.
August 28 at 7:03pm · Like
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Mike Potemra I have enjoyed this thread immensely, but the chief takeaway for me has been that my rejection of atheism was perhaps too hasty.
August 28 at 7:03pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris franciscans are busy writing letters to the leaders of the world...this one is all TAC.
August 28 at 7:04pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Honestly, I'm tired of hearing the "TACers are arrogant" refrain - pick a different (and more helpful) song to sing.
August 28 at 7:04pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu It's currently 1AM where Pater Edmund leaves, so I doubt he'll appear any time soon. The entire train of comments and so on is available above, and it makes itself fairly clear.
August 28 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I think she means the generalization that we are arrogant foul-mouthed jerks. Isak and I are; the rest, not so much.
August 28 at 7:05pm · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu (Sorry, Isak.)
August 28 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict NO SHE DOES NOT MEAN THAT. SHE MEANS STOP CALLING AN ENTIRE ALUMNI ARROGANT.
August 28 at 7:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No offense taken, Tim. PB can say whatever he wants by way of insulting me and it will likely have some truth in it. But most anything good in me has come from my family or from TAC, and I will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the college.
August 28 at 7:06pm · Like
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Tim Cantu No. I think like any college, some are, some are decidedly not, and most are somewhere in the middle.
August 28 at 7:07pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Excuse me? Not all of them.
August 28 at 7:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes Peregrine. Triangles : three-sided :: TAC alum : arrogant. That's exactly right. Well done.
August 28 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I've met some pretty awful people from Christendom but I don't go around calling all of their alumni awful.
August 28 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ^I hear that.
August 28 at 7:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict God help me. God help me. God help us all. This is madness.
August 28 at 7:11pm · Like
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Isak Benedict ^^I can't even.
August 28 at 7:12pm · Edited · Like
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Tim Cantu No one accused you of slandering TAC. They accused you of slandering its graduates. I realize the topic of the thread meanders, but focus is likely for the best. Right now you've been asked about your accusations against all TAC alumni and you've instantly pivoted to another topic.
August 28 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30HUOx6SYk
Inspector Clouseau visits Dreyfus at the psychiatric hospital
From the 1976 film 'The Pink Panther Strikes Again'
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 7:13pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You know very well that's not what we were calling slander, you poor juice box of a man.
August 28 at 7:13pm · Like
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Tim Cantu (Well, someone may have accused you of slandering TAC, but it's not what we're discussing now, hence, it's not very relevant, I don't think.)
August 28 at 7:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tim, I did say "I will not allow this barbarian to continue slandering the college." You are correct to infer that by that I meant its alumni.
August 28 at 7:15pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Meanwhile, you still haven't recanted the formally heretical assertion you made, because we mysteriously pivoted from that topic to the arrogance (or lack thereof) of alumni.
August 28 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm going to go pray for sanity. God help me. Let me know if there's any love to be had here later.
August 28 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I plan on posting some Simpsons clips, so I suspect so.
August 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Tim Cantu I am going to play a board game with my brother. I apologize for preventing you from going to the chapel, PB.
August 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34RlJ0L0xE
Monty Python And The Holy Grail - Let's Not Bicker And Argue About Who Killed...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 7:17pm · Like · 6
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Megan Baird The only sense in which you are pitiful is in the way that you are persisting in your error.
I came out of TAC knowing far more about my Faith than I did when I was a freshman. And that had nothing to do with the lack of my faith formation beforehand - it had everything to do with the education I received there. So you are simply wrong.
August 28 at 7:25pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Tim Cantu please understand this is why you have offended people. when you say we are all arrogant, I think of my wife, who could not deserve that charge less. I am sure it is the same for others.
August 28 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz When I think about it, a program that requires 2-4 classes a day (usually three), is basically a liberal arts program, with a little les literature but with math and science (however well done) and theology packed in, plus greatly bulking up the philosophy, when a HS student looking for a college sees that and goes that's for me, well maybe only the self-confident ones will do that, and that includes those who should be confident and those who are deluded arrogants and those, like myself, who are both arrogant and rightly confident! So I can see why arrogance is not uncommon...it is not that it is produced by the college but rather that of course brighter people have as a danger arrogance.
Different types of people have different dangers. Just because being intelligent can lead to arrogance, doesn't mean we shouldn't learn...and TAC probably humbles as many as it puffs up, for just the reason that it is a heavy load for most.
August 28 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz And the same will be true of any challenging program
August 28 at 7:36pm · Like
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Angela Lessard One thing that can be said about TACers is that they suffer fools -- at absurd length, if not gladly.
August 28 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 10
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Max Summe HAHAHAHA Angela Lessard - that can no longer be debated.
August 28 at 7:38pm · Unlike · 5
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Jeff Neill Why the beef, pb? Did you apply and not get into tac?
August 28 at 7:40pm · Like
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Max Summe After the irritation with Peregrine subsides, a sense of boredom replaces it.
August 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Why does Cdom not teach book 3 of Euclid?
August 28 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Why does all math end with book 2?
August 28 at 7:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "This thread is a testament to the naive but earnest nature of Thomas Aquinas College graduates everywhere. Reason, Logic, and even Rhetoric sometimes are of no use, people."
Except I said that over 5,000 comments ago. What amuses me greatly is how people STILL think the point of this thread is to convert The Peregrine instead of thinking of it more as a virtual smoker's patio.
If the Peregrine offends you, well, you're about 5,000 comments and a week late. The Peregrine is Immutable. And this is The Neverending Thread.
I think I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel - we are about to leave that cave behind,, Isak Benedict. The Thread self-actualizes.
August 28 at 7:44pm · Unlike · 9
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Jeff Neill Why is tac not a 10 year program covering all literature and theological writings?
August 28 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Why didn't you go to tac?
August 28 at 7:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You are a former Canadian, former American elected official... I missed the poet part and theologian.
August 28 at 7:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Disappointing. Universally disappointing.
August 28 at 7:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson, I don't know why anyone gets offended by Sir Bonbon the poet. He's a broken record of an interlocutor. Sometimes, before every goes all whacked-out, he says interesting (if wrong) things. Call him on it, and Bonbon becomes Linda Blair. It happens periodically. Edward could probably figure out the period (I think twice daily - but have no stats to back me up). Then we'll discuss something interesting, and he'll come back all nicey-nice and the recursive thread spirals out again. No worries, the rest of you should just learn to enjoy the spectacle.
August 28 at 8:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia TNET has become self-aware
August 28 at 8:13pm · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu I'm going out for Afghan food. does anyone want anything?
August 28 at 8:15pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Afghan fries.
August 28 at 8:18pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Afghanis have food?
August 28 at 8:21pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Afghan burgers, please, heavy on the meat.
August 28 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger gnawing suspicion: there are many more lurkers than posters on TNET. They reference it and status it, and discuss but nary a post or like.
August 28 at 8:26pm · Unlike · 4
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Joshua Kenz Well many are called, few chosen
August 28 at 8:26pm · Unlike · 6
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Tim Cantu calling out Marie Cantu for doing this
August 28 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wow, almost at 6,000. Seems like just yesterday we were at 3,000.
August 28 at 8:28pm · Like
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Megan Baird And 'remiss' according to whose definition, Peregrine? I would be interested in discovering the identity of the person who officially determines exactly how 'Catholic' our theology program is.
August 28 at 8:31pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I am disappointed with your poetry as well.
August 28 at 8:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger confessions: the good news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of troubles.
August 28 at 8:35pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger confessions: the bad news is that TNET has taken my mind off a host of troubles.
August 28 at 8:36pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger WILL IT NEVER BE 6000
August 28 at 8:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger crawl. . .
August 28 at 8:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger crawl. . .
August 28 at 8:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger crawl. . .
August 28 at 8:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I D E C L A R E
T H I S
T H R E A D
D E A D
August 28 at 10:07pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger phew! now was that so hard?
August 28 at 8:41pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele nice. now the six thousandth comment is "crawl"
August 28 at 8:40pm · Unlike · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson #TNET 10,000
August 28 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele i have begun to question TNET's genuine desire for truth beauty and goodness.... it all seems like a numbers game to me now...
August 28 at 8:42pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger recursive: toddler stage next
August 28 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Beauty and goodness sometimes needs silliness and frivolity.... discuss
August 28 at 8:43pm · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu I hope so. I'm in terrible trouble otherwise.
August 28 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele is comedy really a species of the ugly... discuss.
August 28 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I read in a vocations book once that you shouldn't be a religious if you don't have a sense of humor, because humor is a test of your rationality.
August 28 at 8:46pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Kevin Miller This is The Thread That Won't Die.
August 28 at 8:52pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell If this thread were an app, Matthew J. Peterson would have had a few calls from Sillycone Valley by now ...
August 28 at 8:56pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joshua Kenz-- sorry I ignored all your arguments earlier. I was distracted and now I'm pretty far into my margarita, so maybe tomorrow.
August 28 at 8:58pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Now that school is starting up again and I have a life again, I regretfully have to abandon following TNET. I read the first 5,000 comments, but alas, my endurance fades. I do, however, fully expect this thread to be alive and well when I finish my Masters degree. So keep on keeping on, everybody.
August 28 at 9:07pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger there. I fixed 6000. Now brood. We'll no more merrymaking. Let talk of procreation and procreating be at end.
August 28 at 9:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sean Robertson: you do not unfollow The Thread. The Thread unfollows you.
August 28 at 9:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: being far into your margarita is perhaps the only time that arguing here makes sense.
August 28 at 9:30pm · Unlike · 8
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John Ruplinger that must be my problem.
August 28 at 9:32pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell This is all getting too Matrix-y for me. "MIS-ter Anderson ..."
August 28 at 9:37pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i believe the immovable thread mover has returned to quicken the mostly dead thread.
August 28 at 9:37pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell And you guys were all on my case last night because I didn't want a first mover ...
August 28 at 9:42pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia unfortunately, the meaningless fourth preseason game is winning in the ever-present battle for my attention. It seems like a lot of the "meat" of the thread (ephemeral though it may be) happens later in the evening. I have to stop sleeping.....
August 28 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Michael ... which one are you watching? I got too depressed with SC v. Texas A&M and switched over to the Lions - Buffalo.
August 28 at 9:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Bears/Browns halftime. Johnny Football can throw a FUGLY pass Tim)
August 28 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I would watch the BSU Ole Miss game, but no cable
August 28 at 9:45pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I've been saying for weeks: The Browns need to give Connor Shaw a chance. He's way more mature than Johnny Football and a better passer.
August 28 at 9:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Beats me.... I'm a Bears fan
BUFFALO IS GOING DOWN (week one)
You hear me Peterson!?
August 28 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but seriously, there were a few in the first half that were ugly ducks, nose of the football pointing up, wobbly, like it slipped out of his hand. Terrible
August 28 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I would really like someone to show how comedy was a species of the ugly. I don't quite get that one.....
August 28 at 9:53pm · Like
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Sean Plus Anne Schniederjan http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/.../what-if-all-the...
What if all the NFL logos smoked weed?
With Josh Gordon’s suspension for smok’n dat reefer dominating our newscycle yesterday harder than Ray...
KISSINGSUZYKOLBER.UPROXX.COM|BY UPROXX MEDIA
August 28 at 9:55pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger . . . . see the rotting corpse at 6000, MB
August 28 at 9:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't receive that, John Ruplinger ...
August 28 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia We may not make it to perfection..... I am so disappointed
August 28 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and Nina Rachelle, it has always been a numbers game. Numbers underlie everything. The universe speaks in maths to those that have ears to calculate
August 28 at 10:00pm · Like · 4
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Katie Duda "we may not make it to perfection." Well, to be fair, the thread seemed to have been faulty pretty shortly out of the gate.
August 28 at 10:14pm · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews this thread is in serious need of a double tap.
August 28 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Don't forget what Marx says in his letter to Engels about the law of transformation of quality into quantity! He derives this from Hegel's Logic.
August 28 at 10:18pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The return to Hegel is one of the central leitmotifs of this Thread.
August 28 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell But it's probably too early for that ... the ghost of Hegel only haunts after midnight.
August 28 at 10:22pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell "The Owl of Minerva" yadda yadda yadda ...
August 28 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As for the Bills, Michael Beitia: http://www.youtube.com/embed/7gt4StirOzc?autoplay=1
Mad TV - Lowered Expectations (Gena)
Gena has lowered her expectations Season: 4 Episode #: 4.13 Original Air Date: 1/16/1999
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 10:43pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The bills, Michael Beitia? As for them:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/7gt4StirOzc?autoplay=1
Mad TV - Lowered Expectations (Gena)
Gena has lowered her expectations Season: 4 Episode #: 4.13 Original Air Date: 1/16/1999
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 10:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "Lowered expectashuunnns"
August 28 at 10:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Omni agenti propter finem necessaria est cognitio distincta finis, quia agens propter finem agit ex appetitu finis sicut igitur agens naturale agit ex appetitu finis naturalis, sic agens per cognitionem agit ex appetitu per cognitionem; sed agens propter finem et per cognitionem est homo ; igitur necessaria est cognitio sui finis Sed distinctam cognitionem finis non habet homo ex naturalibus."
August 28 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Do not mock happy fun ball.
August 28 at 10:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Noli mihi irritare leones, sed opertet quod quis addat oleum camino.
Jumping back about 3,000 comments, a question. One that pertains to the "development" of doctrine. Lagrange distinguishes 6 steps in theology
1. The positive procedure.
2. The analytic procedure.
3. The apologetic procedure.
4. The manifestative procedure.
5. The explicative procedure.
6. The illative procedure.
It has been bothering me for a few days, but the illative sense, as Lagrange is using it here (syllogistic reasoning from two premises to a third) is what is missing in Newman, and if he is to avoid evolutionism he has to hold that all such development is done in the other 5 steps, probably the explicative (Lagrange helps, "To illustrate: take the sentence, The Word, which was God, was made flesh. Against the Arians, that sentence was thus expressed: The Word, consubstantial with the Father, was made man. This consubstantiality with the Father, whatever some writers say, is much more than a theological conclusion, deduced illatively from a revealed truth. It is a truth identical, only more explicitly stated, with that found in the Prologue of St. John's Gospel.)
It would seem Newman's "illative sense" must be doing something like that to avoid evolutionism.
But here is the real problem for those of us without Newman's aversion to illative reasoning. Can illative reasoning give us dogma? Now sometimes two premises, both revealed, conclude in a third that is also stated elsewhere in scripture, more or less explicitly. In that case a syllogism does not give us a new truth, but shows the relations of truth. And since revealed it can be considered dogmatic.
But say two truths of faith conclude in a third proposition, not revealed itself. While we would have to admit the certitude of that conclusion, would it merely be a theological conclusion, the denial of which could be condemned by the Church as theological error, but not heresy and over which the infallibility of the magisterium only touches because the logical consequent of its denial is a denial of a premise that is revealed. Or do we hold that it is, in fact, formally revealed, but implicitly.
If the latter, would we say that the syllogism only is the cause of subjective certitude, but the objective certitude still is based on God who reveals? The reasoning is not but a condition of us recognizing a more particular truth that was revealed in a more universal one? It seems that this is true, and most Thomists think this.
Now Lagrange then rejects that a syllogism, wherein one of the premises is of faith, but the other of reason, can be considered formally revealed. He considers them properly theological conclusions, which cannot be dogmatically defined. But it seems to me that the argument above, which he supports, might lend itself to the claim that, at least when the major premise is revealed and the minor premise is by reason, that the conclusion is of faith. Just as revelation presumes a certain context of knowledge, and we have the analytic and explicative procedures for that reason, so too the context of natural knowledge here is merely revealing a more particular truth implicit in the revealed truth.
Or does this cease to be de fide, because the objective certitude of the conclusion rests on the objective certitude of the premises, and while only the minor premise is of reason, that is still defective compared to revealed truth?
And (maybe I break Kunz's record here), if Lagrange is right, that such cannot be de fide, but only taught infallibly about insofar as the faith inherently presupposes or support such things, then it would seem things like NFP, contraception, abortion, heck most morality cannot be taught as de fide, but only as connected logically to the faith. And hence denial of these doctrines cannot be heresy, except in a extenuated way, the way the denial of the notions of the Trinity may be considered heresy, when one denying them realizes the logical consequent ofthat denial is denial of the trinity, but such denial is in se not heretical.
And now I forget where I was going with this.....
August 28 at 10:50pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Ah, football is just around the corner:
http://youtu.be/gODZzSOelss
East/West College Bowl - Key & Peele
Meet the flamboyant players of the East/West Collegiate Bowl. New episodes returning Fall 2014 on Comedy...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 10:50pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson ^Michael Beitia V
^ Tim Cantu V
August 28 at 10:52pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/rT1nGjGM2p8
East/West College Bowl 2 - Key & Peele
The best college athletes in the nation from the east and the west gear up for football fans' favorite annual...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 10:51pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz No!!! Only 693 words.....
O, if this is going to be about football, I must excuse myself....
August 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No.
August 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger cognitio autem finis hominibus necessaria est. etiamne Deo?
August 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Boyer Watch the videos. They are funny. You will like them.
August 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No excuses.
August 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Big fan of Ozamataz Buckshank all the way back to his days at Stanford, even though The Shank terrorized the Irish.
August 28 at 10:53pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The bounty of The Thread overflows, with plenty for each and all.
August 28 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer [Drilling Sound]
August 28 at 10:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Malo de lana caprina rixari quam football!
August 28 at 10:54pm · Like
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Tim Cantu [inaudible]
August 28 at 10:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Ita, Beatus Scotus arguit illam opinionem in quod sequitur
August 28 at 10:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Hey! Speak American!
August 28 at 10:56pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz laterem crudum lavem scriptu latine
August 28 at 10:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Beatus SCotus arhuit? vel arguit?
August 28 at 10:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley Corrigavi illum.
August 28 at 10:59pm · Like
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Benjamin Block https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2zJOryHKQ
(10hours) Lamb chop song that never ends
BigPhil1982siny brings to you 10 hours of the song that never ends enjoy Comment,Subscribe,Rate. Thank you...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu This is one of my favorite old SNL sketches.
August 28 at 11:00pm · Like
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Tim Cantu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZKpq5QfDE
The Dana Carvey Show Minisodes - Episode 8: Part 2
Watch hundreds of free full-length streaming movies and...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 28 at 11:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger to answer Joshua, I cannot. But it is an interesting question.
August 28 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley id est, correxi illum ... Cognitio latinae mea non includit declensiones vel conjugationes
August 28 at 11:02pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Bing bing altameae voglogo huisimon hola
August 28 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger scriptu? O magister latinitatis!
August 28 at 11:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Quia non potest certitudinaliter et determinate sciri finis hominis nisi ex actibus aliquibus eius ordinatis ad talem finem; sed nullum actum percipimus hic quo potentiae nostrae natae sunt pertingere et attingere substantiam separatam in se; igitur per nullum actum in nobis possumus arguere potentiam intellectivam ordinatam ad intelligendum finem in se."
August 28 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger AND interesting about the illative sense which Newman derides in the chapter by that name.
August 28 at 11:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Non intelligo sensum illi quod Ioshua dixit.
August 28 at 11:10pm · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall Why is everyone suddenly speaking Mexican?
August 28 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Quia sumus maior quam gentibus
August 28 at 11:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua, it seems to me that if both premises are de fide, the conclusion is de fide (if all the other conditions of a valid demonstration are met) as well because syllogism preserves truth.
August 28 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "quam" necessarius non est: 'maiores gentibus' vel 'maiores quam gentes", o maior.
August 28 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, perhaps it doesn't preserve certitude in the required way.
August 28 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley sum homo mediorum aetatium, utor "quam".
August 28 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Latina ecclesiae est latina mihi
August 28 at 11:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i was hoping to discuss Hamlet; midnight approaches.
August 28 at 11:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger its Mexican, pure and undiluted.
August 28 at 11:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia, referring to an earlier comment, my guess is you read Lenin on motion because the marxists (and possibly McTaggart) provide the only alternative non-circular account of motion. Of course, it relies on a denial of the law of contradiction, but I don't think it's exactly a strawman.
Descartes's definition of motion, "a transferrence from one locatliy to another" vel huiusmodi, for example, doesn't even begin to hold up. (Although, to be fair he seems to think it is something self-evident and indefinable).
August 28 at 11:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley We, however, didn't read Lenin on motion.
August 28 at 11:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger rereading that, Joshua, it seems all conclusions from revealed premises are certain, but as to the mixed less so though they should be held if taught. But is the teaching on NFP not both Scriptural and known from natural law as well as known from the Fathers (though perhaps mixed in its premises idk). . . .
August 28 at 11:48pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . but the teaching is only de fide and not infallible, no?
August 28 at 11:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think those mean the same thing
August 28 at 11:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger oh. I guess that makes sense. And what i said doesn't.
August 28 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer LATIN
August 29 at 12:02am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Um - a fly just flew into my beer.
August 29 at 12:02am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And that's not cool, man.
August 29 at 12:02am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Is the Newman argument about development of doctrine or something else?
August 29 at 12:02am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, back in the day there was a dustup about the DOD.
August 29 at 12:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson People said Newman was a MODERNIST
August 29 at 12:04am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Was it good beer, Peterson?
August 29 at 12:04am · Like
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Edward Langley Probably better than my Yuengling
August 29 at 12:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Infallible is not coextensive with de fide, but de fide is always infallible (that is when the Church solemnly teaches X to be de fide, that is infallible, as it means it belongs to the deposit of the faith.)
Or rather, if we wish to be more exact, if something is taught as de fide divina it is taught as belonging to revelation. But certain things are taught infallibly that are held de fide ecclesiatica. Such are dogmatic facts and propositions of reason necessarily true through connection with the faith. Hence that Vatican I was a Council, that Pius XII was pope are dogmatic facts, and we hold these as "infallible truths" because of an historical connection to the faith or rather the definitions of faith given by these. Likewise, e.g., the soul is the form of the body is taught infallibly by the truth, not as being part of the deposit of faith, but as a truth, knowable by reason, that is logically connected to the faith so that deny it logically imperils holding a proposition that is revealed. We can be said to hold these truths, that are infallibly taught by historical or logical connection, as de fide ecclesiatica. The canonization of saints, in infallible, would be similar. Denial would not, then, be heresy, necessarily entailing a loss of the virtue of faith, unless one at the same denied it knowing the logical or historical connection, and thus denying a proposition of the faith.
August 29 at 12:05am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I like yuengling
August 29 at 12:05am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Gross ...
August 29 at 12:05am · Like
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John Boyer I was talking with a friend recently that if Newman's basic argument about the structure of a revealed religion is correct, it can be used as an argument against other revealed religions which lack central authorities who are appointed for authoritative, infallible interpretation (or *whatever* the term I should be using is).
August 29 at 12:06am · Like
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Edward Langley
August 29 at 12:09am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley ... just because
August 29 at 12:09am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
August 29 at 12:10am · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Now if you agree with Lagrange that a third proposition, from premises both de fide divina, can also be defined de fide divina, holding that the syllogism is only a condition of its discovery, whereas the cause ofits truth and knowability is God who reveals, why can't we say the same of a syllogism where the major premise is de fide divina, but the minor premise is know through reason, that its conclusion is also de fide divina, with the minor premise being analogous to, say, the natural knowledge used in the explicative part of theology.
By illative I meaning discursive reasoning, reasoning that truly leads from one thing to another proposition. Not a restatement put more explicitly, but a new proposition that follows logically.
August 29 at 12:11am · Like
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Megan Baird Ok, that looks like good beer.
August 29 at 12:11am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell We can re-admit you ...
August 29 at 12:11am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Re Newman - Joshua Kenz made clear he was not a Thomist by education.
August 29 at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson San Diego brew. Not bad.
August 29 at 12:12am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not sure about that, because the principle by which one knows the minor premise isn't divine faith: in the case of two de fide premises, all the principles of the conclusion are known by the divine light.
August 29 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Boyer, did the ancient Jewish religion have an infallible authority? I suppose Aquinas implies Caiphas spoke infallibly (cf about 2500 comments ago when I quoted the Quodlibetal and canonization....but I don't think that was a nomal part of his office
August 29 at 12:12am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But for run of mill beer I have soft spot for yuengling
August 29 at 12:12am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Dude, Natty Boh!
August 29 at 12:13am · Like
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Valerie Acors Thornburg “When Pride and a Little Scratching Pen Have Dried and Split the Hearts of Men”: The Impoverishment of Human Knowledge and the Role of Beauty in Science" I went to the wrong school. This makes me want to go back, seriously.
August 29 at 12:15am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, at the risk of being obtuse, could I not also claim then that when I say Christ was one Person, two natures, that that is only a theological conclusion, not de fide, because the concept of person is not known by divine light?
I guess I am trying to discover the line between where reason help illuminate what is revealed, as opposed to reason being illuminated by faith. It seems clear to me if the major premise is of reason, but the minor of faith, it is not de fide divina, because then it amounts to divine revelation bringing out a further truth implicit in natural knowledge.
August 29 at 12:16am · Edited · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley Drank rice cream ale home brew from a Cappuchin friar tonight. So, I kind of win.
August 29 at 12:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't think that's relevant, because any error in concepts derives from errors in assertions.
August 29 at 12:18am · Like
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Edward Langley scratch that, I'm having trouble formulating my response.
August 29 at 12:19am · Like
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Valerie Acors Thornburg Seriously, I'm not even done reading them. Each one is better than the last. As my late grandmother would say in Italian*waving one arm in an arc to land in the position of holding her head* "Mannaggia".
August 29 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I guess I want to say that the divine light always presupposes that the illumined intellect has concepts to be "seen together" under the influence of that light. When we say that something is known "de fide" we're primarily pointing to the conjunctions of concepts asserted under the influence of the divine light rather than stating something about the concepts one is using.
So your objection doesn't hold, because it operates at a level presupposed to both matters of revelation and matters of reason.
August 29 at 12:22am · Like
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John Boyer If I see illumination one more time...
August 29 at 12:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz BTW, what I called de fide divina versus de fide ecclesiatica, I believe is referred to in more recent documents as de fide credenda or de fide tenenda respectively
August 29 at 12:23am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I don't think it is pressupose to both. It involves judgment, not mere simple apprehension. And judgment can be true or false. Thus one affirms the judgment that the concept of person is predicated of Christ.
August 29 at 12:24am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley (Also, the principles of philosophy are known by a distinct knowledge when used as principles of theology.)
August 29 at 12:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope Peregrine. He has criticized the color of my language, generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC alum, and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his way.
Well, here he is, 6 months ago, calling a woman a "Raging Bitch:" http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/.../wasinger.../
Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild insults. Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that name. Maybe she didn't. I doubt she did, but that doesn't matter. Admit it Weinberg. You're fine with strong language as long as YOU do it.
Hypocrite.
Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist
This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of Virginia, in political discourse, and deserves much...
VIRGINIAVIRTUCON.WORDPRESS.COM
August 29 at 12:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Now go away. Poet, my foot.
August 29 at 12:26am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wow, just wow.
August 29 at 12:27am · Like
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Valerie Acors Thornburg Is there some way to access the complete library of theses? I want to see if anybody has done anything like "Neural Plasticity of multiple modality activity and the metaphysical benefits of the rosary (ie Mary's gift to us)"?
August 29 at 12:29am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz You can physicallygo to TAC and see with Viltus will let you dig through old theses....
August 29 at 12:30am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley We teach theology as the Church tells us to teach it, with St. Thomas
August 29 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Langley, FWIW most Thomists agree with you. A minority think any syllogism that has a premise that is de fide, even if the other is not, concludes in a de fide proposition. While a few hold that this is only true if the major premise it.
I tried googling to find some of these arguments but the only hits I got were of myself talking about the same question 2 years ago elsewhere!
August 29 at 12:32am · Like · 1
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John Boyer PB, besides trolling, why do you care soooooooooooo much?
August 29 at 12:33am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Valerie Acors Thornburg: there should be such a thing. I think now one has to ask college and they get permission from author? Not sure,
August 29 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They actually ask seniors to sign a statement now giving them permission to distribute their thesis.
August 29 at 12:35am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell We're Catholics. We don't need the bible, and we don't need ... oh, wait ...
August 29 at 12:35am · Like
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John Boyer Huh
August 29 at 12:35am · Like
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Katherine Gardner I realize this is foolhardy, given that my reading of The Neverending Thread is at like 8%, but I have to ask: is the sinister implication of the Immaculate Conception not appearing thematically in the curriculum supposed to be that the founders, etc. somehow regret that dogma?
August 29 at 12:36am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell (satire)
August 29 at 12:36am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Comstock isn't much good. But PB's comments there are not right. He really should be blocked, Matthew. Thanks, Isak.
August 29 at 12:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell We have Charles de Koninck to teach us about the Immaculate Conception. Go to. Sirrah!
August 29 at 12:38am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu For the record, everyone, tonight in Boise a rehabbing first baseman (Jesus Montero) for Seattle (playing for the Everett Aquasox) reportedly took a bat into the stands to go after a scout after getting into it verbally with said scout. Baseball is the greatest sport of all time. I'm sure Mr. Montero will fit right in here when he is banned from baseball.
August 29 at 12:39am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu It may be that no one other than me cares about this, but I find it completely amazing.
August 29 at 12:40am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The man is a professional troll, or sock puppet: http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-opens-with.../
"Mr. Weinberg (if that is indeed who he is) has spread the “research” on Comstock using a number of different identities. The Bull Elephant has recorded at least six different identities being used by Mr. Weinberg, all with different email addresses."
Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock - The...
THEBULLELEPHANT.COM
August 29 at 12:40am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell That is awesome, Tim.
August 29 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I was at Comerica Park last night watching the Tigers play the Yankees. I do love baseball.
August 29 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Matthew, please block Peregrine Bonaventure from The Thread.
August 29 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Scott, the medieval curriculum looked like this:
- 6 years of philosophical training, starting around 15 (which would bring the student to 21, the approximate age of a TAC graduate)
- in the seventh year the student could either enter the Theology faculty or Medicine, Canon Law or Civil Law and listen to lectures there for another seven years (~ 28)
- After that, two years running through the Sentences with beginners. (~30)
- Then one on the Sentences (~31)
- Then two years of biblical studies (~33)
- Then one could participate in the disputes under a master
- a year later (~34), one delivered one's initial lecture (For example, Bonaventure's De Reductione Artium ad Theologiam)
August 29 at 12:42am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Notice, however, that you didn't even begin to study theology until after the time at which most students graduate from TAC.
August 29 at 12:42am · Like
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Edward Langley (All this from Dr. Noone at CUA)
August 29 at 12:43am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley All I'm saying is that it might be inappropriate for any theology to be taught to students at that age... after all, look what happens.
August 29 at 12:45am · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu I'd like to know more about the campaign thing, actually, I missed that before dropping my little baseball anecdote in (which is, admittedly, hilarious.)
Are you the same Scott Weinberg?
August 29 at 12:45am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The guy pictured here looks similar: http://disqus.com/disqus_hcw89l3s7L/
Disqus – Scott Weinberg
Disqus is a global comment system that improves discussion on websites and connects conversations across the web.
DISQUS.COM
August 29 at 12:45am · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley And here: http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-calls.../
Wasinger Campaign Calls Barbara Comstock "Raging Bitch": UPDATED - The Bull...
THEBULLELEPHANT.COM
August 29 at 12:46am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Katherine Gardner PB, the 'like' gesture is to be taken as an affirmative? That's a bit wide of the mark to engage seriously.
August 29 at 12:47am · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict It's the same entity behind the profile, whoever he is. Like I said thousands of comments ago, I don't trust him. Please block him, Matthew.
August 29 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I second.
August 29 at 12:47am · Like
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Tim Cantu (much as I sort of want to keep him around for entertainment, I think Isak is right. A rational person in this situation would issue a denial when confronted with evidence that one had acted atrociously and unethically. Or at least claim mistaken identity.)
August 29 at 12:48am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict You're a liar.
August 29 at 12:52am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Because I'm playing the role of Queen of Random on this thread, I just want to say that I can't wait until it hits 6,666 replies. That's all. Carry on.
August 29 at 12:53am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Oh, it certainly is Scott Weinerg.
https://www.facebook.com/scott.weinberg.16/photos
One of those photos, a wedding one, is the same as the avatar in the Twitter screenshot here: http://thebullelephant.com/wp.../uploads/2014/02/raging.jpg
August 29 at 12:53am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Yes, you are. I've found all your profiles under various names - twitter, blogs, whatever - and it's you. You're a blowhard and a liar.
August 29 at 12:53am · Like
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Isak Benedict We cannot trust anything you say and cannot engage a sociopath in conversation. Get out.
August 29 at 12:54am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Unless Peregrine has the habit of stilling photos from this Scott Weinberg fellow....which would be to admit to another unethical behavior
August 29 at 12:54am · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu Scott Weinberg, Christendom College grad who looks remarkably like PB and also remarkably like the person who commented on those articles relating to the 10th VA campaign.
http://warrencountyreport.com/.../south_river_and_the...
Warren County Report: South River and the Hatch Act
« Enchanted Dragon Mirror Maze a roaring good time |...
WARRENCOUNTYREPORT.COM
August 29 at 12:55am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict He is in the habit of maintaining multiple social media profiles. Get out, Bonaventure. Your behavior disgusts me.
August 29 at 12:55am · Like
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Isak Benedict Drag your stinking, rotting, lying carcass away from here, Scott.
August 29 at 12:56am · Like
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Tim Cantu If you go to the bull elephant link (http://thebullelephant.com/wasinger-campaign-opens-with.../) the Jonathan Weinberg who calls Ms. McNickle nasty names has a profile picture which is clearly identical to the one I posted above in the Warren County Report link.
Wasinger Campaign Opens With Amateurish Smearing of Comstock - The...
THEBULLELEPHANT.COM
August 29 at 12:57am · Like
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Tim Cantu excuse me: not identical, but clearly the same person regardless.
August 29 at 12:57am · Like
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Tim Cantu Unless Scott has an erstwhile evil twin?
August 29 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This is unbelievable.
August 29 at 12:57am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Seriously wondering now if PB is satire.
August 29 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well Pegegrine, since you are not Scott, but have stolen pictures of his family and his profile pic, I am reporting you to Facebook.
August 29 at 12:58am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu PB, the profile which was posted above uses a thumbnail of you and your children which you used on your Peregrine profile until a couple days ago. So are you stealing Scott's picture, or vice versa?
August 29 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird (If so, it's really, really appalling satire.)
August 29 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Oh, also, the Scott Weinberg posted above uses the exact same profile picture you currently use, minus your eye blacking. Not appears to be the same person. The same picture.
August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Matthew, what is to be done about this?
August 29 at 12:59am · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=655390844538303&set=a.107146222696104.10649.100002021811264&type=1&theater
August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1437215199863856...
August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Oh, also appearing on that Scott Weinberg profile? Your profile picture that appears under Jonathan Weinberg.
August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Identical photo, different profiles
August 29 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Feel free to delete or privatize that profile, but I have screenshotted everything.
August 29 at 1:00am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Stop yammering about dogma and admit you're a lying sociopath.
August 29 at 1:00am · Like
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Megan Baird Peregrine: you honestly can't expect us to seriously answer you when you are clearly using multiple profiles.
August 29 at 1:00am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger If he's blocked i call dibs on his post count for having been branded heretic and blocked by him.
August 29 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You are a liar.
August 29 at 1:00am · Like
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Megan Baird Guys, I think he thinks TACers are not only arrogant but stupid.
August 29 at 1:01am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley So, you're using someone elses photo?
August 29 at 1:01am · Like
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Edward Langley It's obvious that your current profile photo just has a little black thing drawn on
August 29 at 1:01am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Wait - the man who spawned 6,000 plus comments on this thread via troll transcended to Dragon Level trolling is a professional?
And you guys are shocked and surprised at this?
August 29 at 1:01am · Unlike · 10
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Isak Benedict This has been nothing but amusement for him all along. We cannot take anything he says about the Catholic faith remotely seriously as long as this ridiculous deception continues.
August 29 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Good work googling though - should have been done long ago.
August 29 at 1:02am · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, I'm not shocked or surprised. This is typical behavior of trolls.
August 29 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The game is up, asshole. Knock it off.
August 29 at 1:03am · Like
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Tim Cantu Here are some of the profile pictures of Scott Weinberg. Do they look familiar?
August 29 at 1:03am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz If you think theology is memorizing a list of dogma (and Ott, e.g., is just one attempt...there is no official list), you are a blathering idiot.
I feel sad for your family....to have a father/husband that has nothing better to do than to call women raging bitches, make fake accounts, lie and slander, must be trying....
August 29 at 1:03am · Unlike · 6
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Tim Cantu (Yes, they are crudely copied and pasted together, but anyone can go see them.)
August 29 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You won't get me mad again, Peregrine. I stand by my former statement. I feel nothing but pity for you.
August 29 at 1:03am · Like
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Megan Baird Scott/Peregrine - whoever you are - you're really doing your alma mater a huge disservice by misleading people. And it's completely undermining your arguments. No one's going to seriously entertain arguments from someone who is clearly trolling. But thanks for the relative entertainment.
August 29 at 1:04am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu This is the most fun I've had in ages, and the only thing muting it is what Joshua Kenz posted above.
August 29 at 1:04am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Matthew, i object to the implication that my posts are dragon spawn.
August 29 at 1:05am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu So, why are you using Scott Weinberg's photos? Or is it he who is using your photos?
August 29 at 1:05am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell "In this way [the Teacher] likened unto blind men very many of those who boast that they have a knowledge of theology. “For almost all who give themselves to the study of theology spend time with certain positive traditions and their forms; and when they know how to speak as do the others whom they have set up as their instructors, they think that they are theologians. They do not know that they are ignorant of that ‘inaccessible Light in whom there is no darkness.’
—Nicholas of Cusa, Apologia doctae ignorantiae
August 29 at 1:06am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I've just reported this brainless waste of space. I urge you all to do the same.
August 29 at 1:06am · Like
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Marie Cantu Samuel A Schmitt, you're friends with both of this person's profiles. Can you bring any clarity to the insanity?
August 29 at 1:07am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I have too...if he is Scott Weinberg, he has violated FB by having multiple accounts. If not, he has violated intellectual property
August 29 at 1:07am · Like
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Tim Cantu "Insignificant questions"? Someone is using your photo to call women raging bitches and you think it's insignificant? Dear me.
August 29 at 1:07am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz It is all of them, in principiis suis
August 29 at 1:07am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu Oh, and the answer is that I didn't memorize any doctrines or dogmas, because I, unlike the other people here, was a truly, truly terrible student.
August 29 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu (that part is not sarcastic; deadly serious, on the house.)
August 29 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Tim - whatever you did on your own time, you were a joy to have in freshman section.
August 29 at 1:08am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu Ugh, freshman section were some great times. I remember you using your laptop to play the imperial march before I did the death star prop. Stupid fun, but honest; like me.
August 29 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Shut your mouth Peregrine.
August 29 at 1:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict Tim - and math puns.
August 29 at 1:10am · Like · 1
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John Boyer We didn't play the imperial march. I don't think Baer would have been down with that.
August 29 at 1:11am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu Peregrine, I already told you; I didn't study anything at TAC! We must stop doing this dance, you and i.
August 29 at 1:11am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Don't ever let The Immutable Peregrine make you angry, peoples. I've tried to suggest ignoring the madness.
August 29 at 1:12am · Like · 4
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Megan Baird I wish I could have had Tim in section. I would have been immensely entertained.
But I had Victor Vincent, Daniel Fleury, Earl Williams, and a flurry of others whose personalities were about as compatible as oil and water. Made for some amazing discussions.
August 29 at 1:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Is it really possible to just collectively ignore this charlatan?
August 29 at 1:12am · Like
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Tim Cantu Well, it would be, but as I said, I'm nearly completely serious. It's in the house; part of my charm.
August 29 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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John Boyer It's called the block function.
August 29 at 1:13am · Like
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Adrw Lng Are people really still being surprised by the troll? He's obviously a pro internet bullshitter.
August 29 at 1:13am · Edited · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Matthew - but did you know the madness went this far?
August 29 at 1:13am · Like
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Megan Baird Clearly, he's full of it.
August 29 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I think it's keeping the thread going etc. etc.
August 29 at 1:13am · Like
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Tim Cantu Look, you people, lost in ALL OF THIS is the fact that a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER took a BASEBALL BAT into the STANDS OF A MINOR LEAGUE GAME over an ARGUMENT WITH A SCOUT.
I'm on the verge of peeved at you all for making me almost forget this.
August 29 at 1:13am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I've watched it go this far in disbelief.
August 29 at 1:14am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I actually gave you an answer,
Tu, cacans, ejicet merdam ex ore. Redde tuo loco
August 29 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I guess that quote might have been at Samantha after all.
August 29 at 1:15am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Eh, I have no shame.
August 29 at 1:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Boyer, I made the mistake of unblocking in order to report him...FB won't let me reblock him for 48 hrs
August 29 at 1:15am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Or, rather, belief. The Peregrine has never shown any indication of the possibility of change.
August 29 at 1:15am · Edited · Like
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Tim Cantu I've been looking in my gif folder for the summation of this thread. Good news; I found it! http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=ruu2vc&s=5#.VAAMdvldXoE
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
Tinypic™ is a photo and video sharing service that allows...
TINYPIC.COM
August 29 at 1:15am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Peregrine, if you say one more insulting word to a woman, you will ensure my fist in your teeth if we ever meet.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Wow, this just got a lot more pleasant.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I consider what I said more of a sarcastic shout in the street
August 29 at 1:16am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Tim, this makes me sorry I missed Olberman tonight. I'm sure he had a lot of fun with that one.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like
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John Boyer I won't follow your mistake Mr. Kenz. Once blocked, it stays that way.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I think it literally just happened, though, Daniel, so you should be able to catch it on his next show.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Further, it makes the responses to a non-existent entity more amusing.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Peregrine - do you act like this around my brother?
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson So my disbelief is mainly in people's naive belief that meaningful dialogue of some kind is possible after the provocative questions are asked.
August 29 at 1:16am · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu lololol wheeeeeeeeeeee
August 29 at 1:17am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Oh, Peterson, I think I stopped believing in meaningful dialogue about 1400 replies ago. Now, I'm just enjoying poking the bear a little.
August 29 at 1:17am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, God bless us, every one.
August 29 at 1:18am · Like
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Tim Cantu you all ignored my gif so here is Matthew J. Peterson in front of his computer right now after what he has created. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/.../animatedgifs1/1308171_o.gif
STREAM1.GIFSOUP.COM
August 29 at 1:18am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz You know what, the number is 496...we study 496 dogmas...
August 29 at 1:19am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Can we collectively ignore this Peregrine, this wart on the ass of The Never-Ending Thread? Personally I'm of the opinion it needs to be lanced.
August 29 at 1:19am · Like
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Adrw Lng Peregrine, why do you deny the holy thrinity? Whence came liberal education? NFP! 2737492
August 29 at 1:19am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Greg Benedict, bro-in-law: you are a professional psychologist - please diagnose all of us and this thread.
August 29 at 1:19am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict ^I like this guy's name.
August 29 at 1:19am · Like
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John Boyer Isak, only a mass blocking will do that.
August 29 at 1:19am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Don't just block him, try trolling back that's a much funner idea
August 29 at 1:20am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why is Scott (Peregrine) lying? We know is it him. He was in my class (and 3 others above and below me). He came from Vancouver Island at the time (so he is Canadian originally). He never did make it at TAC. I don't believe he got past sophomore year -- 4 times. He admitted to that 4000 comments ago
August 29 at 1:20am · Like · 4
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John Boyer I'm tired of the counter-troll. This is why blog admins have a ban hammer....
August 29 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Teach me your ways, Andrew. How does one go about this?
August 29 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Adrw, absolutely the best idea yet.
August 29 at 1:20am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Troll the troll you trolled you. Yes. This is the door through which one can enter meta-land.
August 29 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Okay, I am with Isak...and I should have remained as I was, oh 5500 comments ago...I had blocked him before my first post....I should have reported and then blocked. I urge everyone nto do that...report, and then block....and then I shall be the only one who can see him, and it will be easier to ignore him...that way I alone should suffer....it is a hard burden, but I am willing to do it!
August 29 at 1:21am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson ^Frodo
August 29 at 1:21am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Well. It is fun to watch Michael Beitia handle him.
August 29 at 1:21am · Like · 4
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Megan Baird I hate for you to be alone in your pain, Josh. I will stand with you.
August 29 at 1:21am · Like
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John Boyer Joshua, you are a Christ figure.
August 29 at 1:21am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird <---Samwise Gamgee
August 29 at 1:22am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Oh Mr. Frodo. Oh Sam.
August 29 at 1:22am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson How many trolls does it take to get TAC grads to write thousands of comments?
August 29 at 1:22am · Like · 3
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John Boyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFNycPd-tH4
Mr. Frodo
Frodo Frodo Mr. Frodo :D Sequel to Sam, Sam, Sam!! Gets really annoying xD
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 1:23am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson One. One Thread Dragon. And this - this is his hoard.
August 29 at 1:23am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Was Pope Peregrine the Pinhead not the only troll?
August 29 at 1:23am · Like
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Adrw Lng Peregrine, answer me this why do you place the study of economics in front of the study of mathematics? Why are you misogynist?
August 29 at 1:23am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Ahhh. I think I see.
August 29 at 1:24am · Like
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Adrw Lng Also, you never answered any questions about your educational
August 29 at 1:24am · Like
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Megan Baird Peregrine (aka Smaug)
August 29 at 1:24am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu Guys, Vandy is playing Temple right now and this is going to be the Vandy play of the game as things stand right now: http://www.sbnation.com/.../vanderbilt-escapes-jersey...
Vanderbilt escapes jersey timeout penalty by showing email to ref
Today in fun with NCAA rules ...
SBNATION.COM
August 29 at 1:24am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Adrw, you should ask him why the Pope wears white after labor day. That goes against dogmas of style.
August 29 at 1:24am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, we all trolled him back, and were reverse trolled in turn.
I admire his clarity of purpose and his discipline is impeccable.
August 29 at 1:24am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I don't like liars.
August 29 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, you might want to see this ...
August 29 at 1:25am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu It's not a surprise he's in politics. His message discipline is perfect.
August 29 at 1:25am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I want his hide nailed to my mantel.
August 29 at 1:25am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu ^Okay Sir Anthony
August 29 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I did not have sex with that woman...I mean with metaphysics.
August 29 at 1:26am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Troll chic. The under-the-bridge decor is all the rage in the big cities.
August 29 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng But I am just wondering why Pairgin has not answered my question? It really is quite simple he did not enumerate all the Doblez of his education which is necessary for holy mother
August 29 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeats later he gets his revenge upon TAC...on the Book of Faces with over a year of trolling. It's amazing. And his message never changed. I find it remarkable.
August 29 at 1:27am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict I claim the right to the troll hide
August 29 at 1:27am · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, Adrw, are you really expecting to get a serious answer from this man, youth, whatever?
August 29 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Ya know, if Matthew blocked him, PB couldn't see this post anymore. I don't think. But that might delete all his comments and hurt the overall comment number. AND NUMBERS MATTER. Because Descartes.
August 29 at 1:28am · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu Man, this is great.
August 29 at 1:28am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng But Peregrine before you answer my question about church dogma first you must answer me how many politicians does it take to pylon a stupid? How can you write up home without knowing reality!
August 29 at 1:28am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I think we're getting under his skin. His grammar's suffering.
August 29 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Well, shit, if they wanted him in CONGRESS, he must be a great man.
August 29 at 1:29am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Peregrine, I apologize for mistaking your identity. Clearly my real issue was with Scott Weinberg. I don't know how I made that mistake.
August 29 at 1:29am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I will tune in tomorrow night, Tim.
August 29 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng People give him a chance to answer my questions
August 29 at 1:29am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Friday night is always his best show anyway.
August 29 at 1:29am · Like
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Megan Baird Gee, more poetry. I can hardly wait.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like
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John Boyer Um, there's always time to answer the quesiton.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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John Boyer It's facebook.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger he hasnt answered nary a question in 6000 plus comments.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson How could I block The Peregrine? He is what he is. Without him, like Joker to Batman, there is no Thread!
August 29 at 1:31am · Edited · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Tim, please don't say words like "shit." It offends The Peregrine.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Time... time... what care I for time? Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Apologies, Groucho.
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng All I ask is one him simple question and he yells at me his school is full of arrogant jerk
August 29 at 1:30am · Like · 4
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Megan Baird I'm laughing so hard I can hardly breathe...
August 29 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley https://www.kickstarter.com/.../the-blessed-book-of.../posts
The Blessed Book of Beasts
KICKSTARTER.COM
August 29 at 1:31am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Isak Benedict Paraprosdokian phrase, Tim! I just taught my rhetoric students using that very example the other day!
August 29 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Here's a paper bag, Megan
August 29 at 1:31am · Like
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John Boyer Don't hyperventilate
August 29 at 1:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict Peregrine, why is your poetry so didactic?
August 29 at 1:31am · Like
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Edward Langley Notice on that kickstarter, his kickstarter name is "John Scott" but it links to this "Peregrine Bonaventure" account.
August 29 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Peregrine, why is your poetry so BAD?
August 29 at 1:32am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think the Blessed Book of Beasts should include a Thread Dragon.
August 29 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Notice how quickly peregrine leaves for ass and very simple questions that he cannot answer is because he doesn't have the answers because his school is fundamentally flawed
August 29 at 1:33am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I love the idea of a new bestiary. And politics is rough, and I can understand wanting to get out and write such a thing and turn a new leaf.
August 29 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict http://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Beasts.../dp/0970302703
Blessed Beasts A Blessed Bestiary in Verse
A bestiary is a literary collection of animals, each one of which conveys a practical lesson or a moral virtue....
AMAZON.COM
August 29 at 1:33am · Like
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John Ruplinger If blocked the thread might grow at a leisurely pace. Think of PB as the start up troll but you need to think long term.
August 29 at 1:34am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu You know, if it turns out that Scott suffers from multiple personality disorder I'm going to feel really really horrible about this whole thing.
August 29 at 1:34am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think the naive idea that reason, logic, and dialogue will lead anywhere in this situation is helpful.
August 29 at 1:34am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict All I care about at this point is my troll hide.
August 29 at 1:35am · Like · 2
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John Boyer So sarcasm, snark, and insults then? The finest rhetorical tropes.
August 29 at 1:35am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Negation of the negation?
August 29 at 1:35am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson It seems so cold and heartless.
August 29 at 1:36am · Like
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Isak Benedict I will make troll hide boots and a funny hat.
August 29 at 1:36am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Like leaving your wife of 40 for two 20s after she helped you to make it through to prime time.
August 29 at 1:36am · Edited · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng The essence of the world spirit is silliness she's on the way to respond to a troll
August 29 at 1:37am · Like
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John Boyer Adrw is en fuego
See Translation
August 29 at 1:37am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict World Spirit Networking is seeing a real spike in global troll hide prices.
August 29 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau So wait-- some of you didn't know who he really was? That's why I refused to call him Peregrine and not add Scott. We really need a preface to this thread (although I am opposed to prefaces in general)
August 29 at 1:37am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Sarcasm, snark, & silliness are the only ways to respond to troll logic.
August 29 at 1:37am · Like
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Tim Cantu We knew he was Scott, but we didn't know what all Scott got up to in his spare time/congressional campaigning.
August 29 at 1:38am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau oh. Are Canadians allowed to do that?
August 29 at 1:38am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Jody - I knew Peregrine Bonaventure was a pseudonym, but I had no idea what a pro this magnificent bastard was.
August 29 at 1:38am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson We need a Gloss!
August 29 at 1:38am · Like · 2
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John Boyer He's a sadder version of Anthony Wiener. And Peregrine Bonaventure is his version of Carlos Danger.
August 29 at 1:39am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And commentaries.
August 29 at 1:39am · Like
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Tim Cantu Only in non-Presidential years, I think. It's in the amendment about the right to privacy.
August 29 at 1:39am · Like
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Isak Benedict And an Index! Several Indices!
August 29 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John wins today. Well done.
August 29 at 1:39am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And post-it notes
August 29 at 1:40am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger writes The Thread's Pascendi
August 29 at 1:40am · Like · 2
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John Boyer I would like to thank the TNET Academy...
August 29 at 1:40am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I still want to see The Thread printed out on an endless roll of paper.
August 29 at 1:40am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Pater Edmund writes its Syllabus [of Errors]
August 29 at 1:41am · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I just want this to get to 6,666....
August 29 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I will write an apology to all of our spouses.
August 29 at 1:40am · Unlike · 7
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John Ruplinger KEEP YOUR PET TROLL then. But he is going to turn you all into trolls. It happened before. YOU have been WARNED.
August 29 at 1:41am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict We are very proud of you all over here at World Spirit Networking. Please step right this way towards the door marked "Labyrinth of Mirrors."
August 29 at 1:41am · Like · 1
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John Boyer My wife went to bed almost an hour ago. Just a few more posts....
August 29 at 1:43am · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict Tim - do you remember when I played the World Spirit for the Trivial/Quadrivial Pursuit games, and introduced the line of philosophers while wearing Kevin Kasson's pimp hat?
August 29 at 1:43am · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu YES. what a ludicrous dream undergrad was.
August 29 at 1:44am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And a prayer for The Peregrine before bed.
August 29 at 1:44am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Good night everyone congratulations on reaching 19000 post
August 29 at 1:45am · Like · 3
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John Boyer ok. bed. see all you crazies tomorrow. And if any of yall are ever in Houston, hit me up and we can go drink.
August 29 at 1:48am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Isak, if Tim can't say shit in English, maybe he could do as I did and say it in Latin (whle another post of mine used more Latin idioms, I think the one referring to Scott as "cacans, ejicit merdam..." is my finest vulgarity)
Or as St. Paul....who used the Greek word for it in the bible!
August 29 at 1:50am · Edited · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Well I'm wide awake, unfortunately. Maybe now I can finally go back to convincing Pater Edmund of the worth of The Great Gatsby! I also really want to hear about his dissertation on DFW.
August 29 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell 'Til the morrow, when hopefully we'll have some video of Jesus Montero taking that bat into the stands to go after the Mariners' scout.
August 29 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Josh - brilliant. Brilliant.
August 29 at 1:50am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson By all means,in any language, but pray mercy and grace for all.
August 29 at 1:50am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell DFW=David Foster Wallace?
August 29 at 1:51am · Like
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Isak Benedict We will answer for every idle word.
August 29 at 1:51am · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel - yes, quite. I'm a big fan, apparently so is Pater.
August 29 at 1:52am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell A friend of mine was telling me I should read Infinite Jest ... I'll get to that someday.
August 29 at 1:52am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I read "Brief Interviews" when I was living in D.C., and enjoyed it.
August 29 at 1:54am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Yeah, I usually try to know someone better before I recommend it, but that's because I'm an elitist. It's my favorite novel.
August 29 at 1:54am · Like
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Isak Benedict I liked Brief Interviews. My favorite was Tri-Stan: I Sold Sissee Nar To Ecko!
August 29 at 1:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Right now, I guess, the novel I would put up there would be Iris Murdoch's A Severed Head. But that's a discussion for another time.
August 29 at 1:56am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz ἀλλὰ μενοῦνγε καὶ ἡγοῦμαι πάντα ζημίαν εἶναι διὰ τὸ ὑπερέχον τῆς γνώσεως Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ κυρίου μου, διὃν τὰ πάντα ἐζημιώθην, καὶ ἡγοῦμαι σκύβαλα, ἵνα Χριστὸν κερδήσω
And I count all things to be but loss for the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but as shit, that I may gain Christ: (Phillipians 3:8)
ETA: The Greek is σκύβαλα. It is the Greek vulgarity for feces, not the polite term for it.
August 29 at 1:56am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Maybe Scott blocked me because i am good friends with someone who ran against weninger and Comstock. That makes more sense.
August 29 at 2:03am · Edited · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha WOAH. I obviously missed a meeting or two.
August 29 at 1:58am · Like · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau
See Translation
August 29 at 1:59am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Welcome back Sam. Scott's been outed. I've claimed his hide.
August 29 at 1:59am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha Who's on first?
August 29 at 2:00am · Like
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Isak Benedict For Sam and anyone just joining us:
"I would like to address one final thing to the Troglodyte Pope Peregrine. He has criticized the color of my language, generalized an attribution of foul words to all TAC alum, and stated more than once that he does not like vulgarities hurled his way.
Well, here he is, 6 months ago, calling a woman a "Raging Bitch:" http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/.../wasinger.../
Looks like the girls on this thread got off lightly with your previous mild insults. Maybe this Catherine Stone McNickle deserved that name. Maybe she didn't. I doubt she did, but that doesn't matter. Admit it Weinberg. You're fine with strong language as long as YOU do it.
Hypocrite."
Wasinger Campaign Goes Sexist
This type of language has no place in the Republican Party of Virginia, in political discourse, and deserves much...
VIRGINIAVIRTUCON.WORDPRESS.COM
August 29 at 2:00am · Like
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Isak Benedict After that everyone found all his other social media profiles with the same pictures, et cetera.
August 29 at 2:01am · Like
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Isak Benedict But now we are in love with him and want to have his babies.
August 29 at 2:01am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Peregrine, I would like to sire your progeny.
August 29 at 2:03am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, Re: 500 comments ago.
How am I a troll?!?!
Samantha. Sorry. I had to go. Familial duties, and what not.
Anyway, if still wanted I can bring texts to bear about the whole NFP thing. I really am not sure about it, but I am disposed to a certain opinion that seems to be in consonance with Scripture and the Tradition.
August 29 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And Callistos can live on my couch, Peregrine.
August 29 at 2:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau There are some great deliverance prayers on this site. Once this thread hits 6666, pick one to pray and go to bed! https://www.catholicwarriors.com/pages/warfare_prayers.htm
Spiritual Warfare & Deliverance - English Prayers
Spiritual Warfare & Deliverance Prayers - Catholic Resources to Break Free from Demonic attack. More Information about deliverance...
CATHOLICWARRIORS.COM
August 29 at 2:05am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau And pray for Peregrine Scottie too
August 29 at 2:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am just waking up here in Austria.
August 29 at 2:06am · Like
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Sam Rocha Wait one hot second, did this thread take puritanical turn? Fuck that.
August 29 at 2:06am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Peregrine seriously, I was wondering why your poetry is so didactic?
August 29 at 2:06am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Maybe Sam Rocha could add a song to the thread. We haven't had a musical interlude for a while.
August 29 at 2:06am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I will watch over TNET while you all sleep.
August 29 at 2:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think this is likely the least Puritanical thread ever.
August 29 at 2:06am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Daniel, do you need to be caught up?
August 29 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Plus, the thread does not turn. It is becoming.
August 29 at 2:07am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am doing so, slowly.
August 29 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I saw that The Troll was insulting women again.
August 29 at 2:07am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman That was the thing that made me lose my temper last time.
August 29 at 2:07am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha A soother, from Late to Love: https://soundcloud.com/wiseblood-records/04-rest-in-you
4. Rest in You
SOUNDCLOUD.COM|BY WISEBLOOD-RECORDS
August 29 at 2:07am · Like · 5
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Sam Rocha Fair points, outrage retracted. Always already becoming.
August 29 at 2:08am · Edited · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Is the metaphysical question whether Peregrine is real or not?
August 29 at 2:08am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Thanks Sam. St Augustine, pray for us!
August 29 at 2:09am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Nice song, Sam!
August 29 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman All too real.
August 29 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha Thx.
August 29 at 2:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, TNET essentially = facebook for me, now.
August 29 at 2:10am · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley Daniel, the accusations of trollery had to do with your tactic of releasing a couple firebombs in the thread and then disappearing for the next 500 comments or so . . . but it was mostly a joke.
August 29 at 2:10am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It has replaced my news feed.
August 29 at 2:10am · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Hey real quick does anyone know what kind of metal I need to make a needle strong enough to sew this stuff? Working on a troll hide jockstrap at the moment.
August 29 at 2:10am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And since I am friends with a bunch of my former high school students there is substantially more coherency.
August 29 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, well at least it got a conversation going!
August 29 at 2:11am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Isak, maybe tungsten?
August 29 at 2:11am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And showed Scott to be a misogynistic troll.
August 29 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In addition to other things.
August 29 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But maybe politics is safer than sex.
August 29 at 2:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...to talk about, that is.
August 29 at 2:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel, you might be interested in this http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/Scotus%20-%20Vat%2016.pdf
August 29 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Who translated the passage left in Latin in Augustine sophomore year...in front of the class?
August 29 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman heh, heh. Joshua, I hadn't heard that anyone had done that.
August 29 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That was the most counter-productive attempt to hide the meaning of a passage I've ever seen.
August 29 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is a very mild passage, if I remember correctly.
August 29 at 2:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Augustine was always very discreet with language.
August 29 at 2:14am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well if you read the rest carefully, it was essentially a summation...I guess a sprinkling is fine, but all in one place is too much
August 29 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think it was the least mild Augustine ever was on the subject, and crossed the line for those Victorians
August 29 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Augustine was so bawdy!
August 29 at 2:16am · Like
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Edward Langley Re. earlier things:
CASE 1. PLACE 1. Super Sent., lib. 1 q. 1 a. 3 qc. 2 arg. 3. Praeterea, in omni scientia acquiritur aliquis habitus per rationes inductas. Sed in hac doctrina non acquiritur aliquis habitus: quia fides, cui tota doctrina haec innititur, non est habitus acquisitus, sed infusus. Ergo non est scientia.
CASE 2. PLACE 2. Super Sent., lib. 1 q. 1 a. 3 qc. 2 ad 3. Ad aliud dicendum, quod, sicut habitus principiorum primorum non acquiritur per alias scientias, sed habetur a natura; sed habitus conclusionum a primis principiis deductarum: ita etiam in hac doctrina non acquiritur habitus fidei, qui est quasi habitus principiorum; sed acquiritur habitus eorum quae ex eis deducuntur et quae ad eorum defensionem valent.
August 29 at 2:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Didn't the Victorians edit the Bible at times?
August 29 at 2:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Lot's daughters, Tamar . . .
August 29 at 2:17am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Everyone edits the bible
August 29 at 2:17am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I have a book from 1873 called "The Confessional" It is a small handbook for confessors, rather unlike other handbooks in that it doesn't attempt to be a moral theology handbook. It recommends exhortations, remedies, penances, etc. Certain areas are put partially in Latin and the author says in the preface that it is to prevent the laity from delving into things....mostly sexual material, but some other (seems to me random) material too....God forbid the laity know that priests might have sins to confess too!
August 29 at 2:17am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, that would seem to go against Lagrange, no? I remember translating that passage now that you quoted it. Didn't think much at the time.
August 29 at 2:20am · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps, but I took these passages to be indicating the existence of an acquired supernatural (?) virtue.
August 29 at 2:21am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (I think that was Nieto's formulation of the special status of Sacred Theology)
August 29 at 2:22am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I think you might be right: i.e. that a conclusion drawn from two de fide premises is not itself de fide since a conclusion is less known than its premises.
August 29 at 2:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is a good point Edward.
August 29 at 2:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have been reading that Scotus link.
August 29 at 2:24am · Like
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Edward Langley I looked this up in connection with this Scotus class I'll be taking. I guess Henry of Ghent thought that the theologian had a special faculty, an "intermediate light" between the light of Faith and Beatific Vision by which he had greater insight into theology than the ordinary man does.
August 29 at 2:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Interesting. Weird. But interesting.
August 29 at 2:27am · Like
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Edward Langley Supposedly Scotus and Godfrey of Fontaines reacted strongly to this doctrine.
August 29 at 2:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz But this is funny. Capreolus, Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, the Salamancans, Lagrange, etc all say it is de fide. When both premises are de fide. The dispute seems to always be over whether one with a premise of reason is, with Suarez e.g. saying it is.
Either I am misunderstanding St. Thomas in the passage quote, he change his mind, or virtually every Thomist has interpreted him wrongly....
August 29 at 2:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, I am sorry, but I don't understand your difficulty. I probably missed something in my scan of the posts above.
August 29 at 2:38am · Like
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Edward Langley I think the question is: can the conclusion of a syllogism from revealed truths be de fide?
August 29 at 2:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
August 29 at 2:41am · Like
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Sam Rocha I think this has become the Platonic form of tl;dr
August 29 at 2:41am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Are we speaking of de fide as more than a canonical designation?
August 29 at 2:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What I mean, is that if I were to propose a doctrine like, Mary is Mediatrix of all graces, I think that would follow from de fide principles (i.e. she is the Mother of God, assumed into heaven.)
However, while I think it is true, would it follow that belief and assent to this doctrine is obligatory, before it has been defined by the Church?
August 29 at 2:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Maybe it would have the force of de fide... but I can't see how one could be compelled to believe on pain of being declared a formal heretic without the doctrine being defined.
August 29 at 2:47am · Like
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Edward Langley Well with the notiones, isn't that the case?
August 29 at 2:47am · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, the question is can it ever be define de fide. Or is it relegated to being a theological truth, yes capable of being infallibly taught, but not de fide divina (or de fide credenda, as opposed to de fide ecclesiatica, or de fide tenenda)
August 29 at 2:47am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman If that is the question, then I would respond: I don't see why it could not be so defined.
August 29 at 2:48am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ultima conclusio: propositio immediate deducta per proprium discursum ex duabus præmissis formaliter revelatis, quatenus infertur ex illius vi consequentiæ, et illationis, est conclusio theologica; specificative tamen accepta, et considerata est de fide, ob idque tam per fidem, quam per Theologiam possumus illi assentire. Hæc assertio, quam sub hæc distinctione pauci attigere, redigit ad debitam concordiam dissidium quodest super hac re inter Authores, dum quidam, ut Thomistæ, necnon Molina, Valentia, Torres, Lorca, et alii, absolute docent dictam propositionem esse theologicam; quidam vero, ut Okam, Cano, Vega, Vasq. et alii, quos refert, et sequitur Hurtado disp. 10, sect. 1 § 2, absolute affirmant, illam esse de fide. Possunt enim recte conciliari,, si primi loquantur de prædicta propositione formaliter, quatenus habet rationem conclusionis illatæ ex præmissis revelatis; ultimi vero sermonem instituant de ipsa specificative accepta, sive considerata præcise ex parte objecti. Et sane quidquid sit de sensu aliorum, Thomistæ solum loquuntur de illa formaliter, ut est conclusio deducta ex revelatis, ut eos consulenti constabit. Quo sensu verum est prædictam conclusionem esse propositionem theologicam. Nec obstat, quominus alias sit de fide ex eo, quod est deducibilis ex duplici præmissa formaliter revelata, ut statim probabimus.
Salamanticensis, Cursus Theologicus, Tomus 11, Tractus 17 de fide, dispt. 1, dubium IV, para 127
I think that settles the case with two premises of faith (longest latin quote typed by hand perhaps?)
August 29 at 2:50am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I just realized I failed to post the rest of it before closing the text program.....
August 29 at 2:57am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz And not saving....stupid, stupid...well it goes on even further than I posted, addressing theother cases (with one premise)
August 29 at 2:57am · Like
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Edward Langley So the claim there is that, formally speaking, it's thelogical while materially speaking it's de fide
August 29 at 2:58am · Like
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Edward Langley ?
August 29 at 2:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or at least capable of being so defined.
August 29 at 2:58am · Like
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Edward Langley So what would the implications of denial be before definition?
August 29 at 2:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In what sense do you mean? Canonically? Morally? Speculatively?
August 29 at 3:01am · Like
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Edward Langley Morally.
August 29 at 3:01am · Like
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Michaella Pape The Thread is absurdly addicting...
With regard to many comments back - Smaug is too noble a comparison for the troll.
Also, when first I started reading this a week ago, it reminded me of a Terry Pratchett novel. Now all I can think of, besides the ever-mentioned TAC Smoker's Patio, is "Rosentrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead". So many glorious exchanges of the profound and profane!
August 29 at 3:02am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz had previously said that in one circumstance it would destroy the gift of Faith while in another it would be different.
August 29 at 3:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If one clearly grasps the premises but refuses to assent then one would have to attribute it to a bad will.
August 29 at 3:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One could have a poor intellect, however.
August 29 at 3:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know what Joshua Kenz was talking about.
August 29 at 3:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It would be materially heresy if one did not realize the connection with defined faith, formally heresy if they did...a mortal sin
August 29 at 3:05am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well, I thought it was standard teaching that any sin against faith destroys it totally. So I'm wondering how the particular distinction between de fide/theological truth relates to that?
August 29 at 3:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah. Destroys the faith simply speaking (i.e. formed faith).
August 29 at 3:06am · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Sic Aquinas in Summa Theologica somewhere...the consequences of denying the notions
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Edward Langley I q.32 a.4: "Respondeo dicendum quod ad fidem pertinet aliquid dupliciter. Uno modo, directe; sicut ea quae nobis sunt principaliter divinitus tradita, ut Deum esse trinum et unum, filium Dei esse incarnatum, et huiusmodi. Et circa haec opinari falsum, hoc ipso inducit haeresim, maxime si pertinacia adiungatur. Indirecte vero ad fidem pertinent ea ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium fidei; sicut si quis diceret Samuelem non fuisse filium Elcanae; ex hoc enim sequitur Scripturam divinam esse falsam. Circa huiusmodi ergo absque periculo haeresis aliquis falsum potest opinari, antequam consideretur, vel determinatum sit, quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium fidei, et maxime si non pertinaciter adhaereat. Sed postquam manifestum est, et praecipue si sit per Ecclesiam determinatum, quod ex hoc sequitur aliquid contrarium fidei, in hoc errare non esset absque haeresi. Et propter hoc, multa nunc reputantur haeretica, quae prius non reputabantur, propter hoc quod nunc est magis manifestum quid ex eis sequatur. Sic igitur dicendum est quod circa notiones aliqui absque periculo haeresis contrarie sunt opinati, non intendentes sustinere aliquid contrarium fidei. Sed si quis falsum opinaretur circa notiones, considerans quod ex hoc sequatur aliquid contrarium fidei, in haeresim laberetur."
August 29 at 3:07am · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, Lendman heresy utterly completely destroys faith. Heretics cannot have the virtue of faith, unformed or otherwise. But one can deny even an infallible teaching that is de fide tenenda rather than de fide credenda and still have the virtue of faith.
August 29 at 3:08am · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Baird It's really sad that I keep checking this thread for 6,666...
August 29 at 3:09am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, of course you are right. I misread what you had typed above.
August 29 at 3:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was just about to correct myself, in fact.
August 29 at 3:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Just to be abundantly clear: Formal heresy does destroy the gift of faith.
August 29 at 3:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley As does denying the conclusion of a syllogism from two de fide credenda premises?
August 29 at 3:13am · Like
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Edward Langley Just to make everything explicit.
August 29 at 3:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But only if one clearly sees the connection to the premises de fide credenda.
August 29 at 3:15am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Cool!
August 29 at 3:19am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley BTW . . .
August 29 at 3:23am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz FWIW an example given of a theological truth (something that could be aruably be taught infallibly, de fide tenenda, but isn't) is with this syllogism
Esse sequitur personam
Atqui in Christo est unica persona
Ergo in Christo est unum esse
Now the first premise is from reason, the second is de fide divina. therefore the conclusion is not de fide divina, but merely a theological conclusion. Scotus would deny the argument, but that means he would have to deny the first premise.
Another example is
Infused knowledge is necessary so that the human intellect not remain imperfect
And the human intellect of Christ, already on earth, ought not be imperfect
Therefore, Christ, already on earth, had infused knowledge (S. Th. III q. 9 a. 3)
The major premise is not de fide, so neither is the conclusion de fide or definable as dogma
The Church could condemn the contrary as erroneus, even infallibly so, but not heretical
But
It is revealed Christ is true God and true man
And for true humanity a rational soul is essentially required
Therefore Christ had a rational soul.
That conclusion is de fide divina and was defined against the Apolloniarians. It is claimed, by Lagrange, that it is not objectively, but only subjectively illative. It is consider explicative, as leading reason to explain the subject and predicate already given in revelation, and not adding a third truth.
He gives no example of two premises concluding in a third truth that is de fide and is not revealed elsewhere..
But I suspect it is true of certain Marian doctrines. I cannot see how, e.g., some are in revelation except as deduced...except maybe counting Tradition. The common bard today is to try and claim it is all in scripture, but that is not true of the Assumption, clearly...but that gets into another debate!
August 29 at 3:47am · Like · 2
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Aaron Thibodeaux Despite having to spend a ridiculous amount of time every day catching up on the latest 500+ comments, The Thread is the best thing to happen to my Facebook. Thank you to everybody who made it happen, even -- or especially -- our very own resident troll. (Can we keep him? Can we keep him?? Pleasepleasepleasepleeeeeeeease???)
August 29 at 4:16am · Unlike · 7
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Aaron Thibodeaux But seriously -- I'm glad I kept up with it; I was privy to an amazing display of intellectual discussion (well, the rational half) and I want to thank all you super smart people out there for providing me with all of this metaphysical and theological material that I only got a glimpse of at TAC. I have thoroughly enjoyed being a part of this, and hope to benefit from the bounties of TNET for a while yet
August 29 at 4:26am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick The perfection of man to a large extent is the perfection of his intellect.
August 29 at 7:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, since things have been quiet for awhile, I will share with You O' Thread, my thoughts:
August 29 at 7:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Contemporary theological considerations regarding life between death and resurrection have been fraught with contention and have shifted to a point where the very meaning of resurrection has all but been lost. It was in response to this confusion that the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the Church.
August 29 at 7:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This document had this in particular to say regarding the soul:
The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the Bible, the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting it; moreover, she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of Christians.
http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_19790517...
LETTER ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING ESCHATOLOGY
The recent Synods of Bishops dealing with evangelization and catechesis have created increasing awareness of the need for perfect fidelity to the fundamental truths of faith, especially at the present time, when profound changes in human society and the concern to integrate the Christian faith into…
VATICAN.VA
August 29 at 7:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Then Josef Ratzinger, wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the body. Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about St. Thomas Aquinas' appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of soul: “Thomas took this formulation [the soul is the form of the body] and gave it, in terms of his own thought, a fundamentally new significance.”
August 29 at 7:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman However, a careful scrutiny of both Aristotle's and Thomas' treatment of the soul, however, makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the formulation, “the soul is the form of the body” a “fundamentally new significance.” To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several places, and in different ways. This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily dualistic. Neither of these positions, finally, seem tenable.
August 29 at 7:35am · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman I argue that Thomas' use of this formulation is fundamentally the same as Aristotle's and that this in no way contradicts the above teachings regarding soul. However, it is in light of revelation that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new way.
August 29 at 7:36am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Aristotle's treatment of the soul is limited, quite properly, to a mode proper to philosophy. Thomas in no way rejects this method, but even follows it in certain places in his own work. With the benefit of revelation, however, Thomas is able to approach the consideration of the soul beginning with God but this, nevertheless, does not fundamentally change the meaning of soul as forma corporis, but is an authoritative confirmation of this fundamentally Aristotelian formula.
August 29 at 7:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This seems to fit nicely into the "faith and reason" theme and "Arithomist" theme.
August 29 at 7:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think here one sees the way in which faith and reason, and Thomas and Aquinas interact on an important matter of philosophy and theology.
August 29 at 7:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, most of y'all are still asleep or are just waking up, so I don't expect any thoughts immediately.
August 29 at 7:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman However, when anyone who is interested, who is likewise drawn back to the thread gets a chance, I would love to hear thoughts on the matter.
August 29 at 7:41am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Are you saying you think the "human self endowed with consciousness and will" surviving death is an Aristotelian idea?
August 29 at 7:43am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, good morning
August 29 at 7:43am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm up before my kids. So, I probably have about 5 minutes
August 29 at 7:43am · Edited · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Woah-- catching up-- lots went on after I went to bed!!
August 29 at 7:44am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I remember a lecture at TAC, where a certain Tutor no longer there, got very worked up indeed on whether that-which-survived-death was the person or not.
August 29 at 7:44am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I may have missed the lecture, I don't remember it, but that never proves anything as bad as my memory can be, but I do remember you telling me about it, Samantha.
August 29 at 7:49am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That was a fun lecture.
August 29 at 7:46am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Also, can I just say -- I TOLD you guys that Wasteland quote was directed at me. I feel vindicated now.
August 29 at 7:46am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Who gave it? I can't remember his name. And on that note, is there a way to get a list of the lectures that occured while we were there?
August 29 at 7:46am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I have no idea. But the tutors got REALLY into it.
August 29 at 7:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It was a fun lecture.
August 29 at 7:47am · Like
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Joel HF PB has mental issues. In support I offer this: http://www.slate.com/.../internet_troll_personality_study...
Science Confirms: Internet Trolls Really Are Narcissistic, Psychopathic, and Sadistic
In the past few years, the science of Internet trollology...
SLATE.COM
August 29 at 7:47am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman That issue, though related, was not principally on my mind.
August 29 at 7:47am · Like
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Joel HF Daniel--would you PM me the rest of your paper? (I assume it was the precis or whatever, that you posted above).
August 29 at 7:48am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, Aristotle's understanding of what part of the intellect survives is pretty different than what the Church affirms.
August 29 at 7:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, I would send it to you if I had finished writing it.
August 29 at 7:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I posted that troll study 6,000 comments ago!!!
August 29 at 7:49am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Recurrence, Eternal
August 29 at 7:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is not other Matthew. It is continual manifestation of TNET
August 29 at 7:50am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I hope to finish it next semester. Joel HF
August 29 at 7:50am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson True.
August 29 at 7:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, it is not clear to me that it is different.
August 29 at 7:51am · Like
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Joel HF Haha! I actually missed that, despite being here from the beginning. Also, w/r/t non-troll people who post-online, the paper says this: "What’s more, [the study] also found a relationship between all Dark Tetrad traits (except for narcissism) and the overall time that an individual spent, per day, commenting on the Internet."
August 29 at 7:51am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman The Church says very little, in fact, about the 'state of being" of the soul.
August 29 at 7:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is to say, "the separated soul."
August 29 at 7:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think we had better hope that it's more than just an impotent active intellect, though. Aristotle's way of surviving is seriously limited
August 29 at 7:53am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Samantha--what does the Church affirm, in your view? (I know very little about what it does or doesn't propose here.)
August 29 at 7:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Church does not say very much about the state of being of the separated soul.
August 29 at 7:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I think you are probably right.
August 29 at 7:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But if, and to the extent that, that is true, it would have to be a super-added grace.
August 29 at 7:54am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. >>> I'm just going off of what Daniel quoted
August 29 at 7:55am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I thought that STA proposed that by way of grace, the soul was able to operate beyond mere impotent intellect, but by nature that's all that survived really.
August 29 at 7:55am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Something not contained within the nature of the soul, itself.
August 29 at 7:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes^ and ^Yes^
August 29 at 7:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, so we're agreed?
August 29 at 7:56am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm also not at all sure Aristotle would be able to say that the "human self" subsists after death
August 29 at 7:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No. But nor would the Church.
August 29 at 7:57am · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF That, as I recall, was (more or less) the point of contention between the two tutors in question.
August 29 at 7:57am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Not strictly speaking.
August 29 at 7:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Church says that a human soul or spiritual element subsists, but this in not what it is to be human.
August 29 at 7:58am · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF To avoid identifying them, I'll call them "Hubert" and "Lonnie"
August 29 at 8:45am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF I'm off to Mass. Later y'all.
August 29 at 7:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But Daniel, you never responded to my question 1000 comments ago about St. Paul.
August 29 at 8:00am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Further, the Church teaches (rather shockingly, really) that a soul has a relation to "this body"
August 29 at 8:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, you are probably right. Which question?
August 29 at 8:01am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Remember, when you were all like "St. Paul and the Fathers are against NFP! Have fun! See ya!"
August 29 at 8:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman lol! Oh yeah...
August 29 at 8:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Family obligations drew me away.
August 29 at 8:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yes yes, I forgive you
August 29 at 8:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, first of all, I think St. Paul and the Fathers would be totally supportive of NFP.
August 29 at 8:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think they would highly recommend it.
August 29 at 8:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh. Well then.
August 29 at 8:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman At the same time, they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of marriage.
August 29 at 8:04am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, so that's when I was all "eh, the church fathers think lots of stuff. What about Paul?"
August 29 at 8:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful. And venial sin is only sin secundum quid.
August 29 at 8:05am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I *really* don't think that's the cool thing about marriage.
August 29 at 8:06am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman well, "a" cool thing, at least.
August 29 at 8:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman
August 29 at 8:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, now my family obligations beckon. later.
August 29 at 8:07am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We shall continue.
August 29 at 8:07am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick How did NFP get involved? I am so confused. Obviously I had too much of an actual life yesterday. . .
August 29 at 8:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Woah... that's what I get for sleeping. As far as the Peregrott is concerned, I outed him on another thread ages ago. And I've repeatedly counselled humor over outrage at him.
this is way selfish, but I say keep him on TNET because it gives me a chance to counter-troll and I oh so enjoy it.
Finally, as to the substance of his supposed sexist comments, I love me some Raging Bitch:
http://flyingdogbrewery.com/beers/raging-bitch/
and it is in MD
Raging Bitch Belgian-Style IPA - Flying Dog Brewery
A Maryland craft brewery that views brewing beer as an...
FLYINGDOGBREWERY.COM
August 29 at 8:33am · Like · 6
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Lauren Ogrodnick And who/what exactly is our Troll? I mean, I knew a whole ago he had multiple profiles but now.... Uh what? . . .
August 29 at 8:37am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Lauren, IDK, Jody seems to be the only who has met him personally (unless he changes faces too......) I take him to be kind of like the slave boy in Meno, except he asks questions instead of answering them, and doesn't come to any conclusions. So wait, maybe the opposite of the slave boy. The slave boy can be taught
August 29 at 8:39am · Edited · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, Daniel, I have literally never heard that sex during infertile times is venially sinful. I'm quite sure there's no such notion in Paul (or the Bible). Sounds like something that comes from the view that sex's sole valid purpose is for procreation, which I thought had been pretty thoroughly repudiated.
August 29 at 8:41am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe By everyone.
August 29 at 8:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know that anyone (by that I mean sane people who are in the Church) has held that the ONLY valid purpose of the conjugal act is procreation. But, it is the position of the Church, that procreation is the primary aim of the conjugal act.
August 29 at 8:43am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sure, sure. But then why would you think the thing about non-fertile sex being venially sinful?
August 29 at 8:44am · Like
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Michael Beitia Is this a problem of scale? Because I doubt during the conjugal act many are thinking primarily of procreation
August 29 at 8:44am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Well, that is certainly fair.
August 29 at 8:50am · Like
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Michael Beitia If one looks at one's spouse with an eye toward where the evening may end up is that venial sin re: lust?
August 29 at 8:51am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Because if a man is unmarried, it is adultery, right?
August 29 at 8:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which is why the Fathers held that it while it was possible to engage in the marital act without venial sin, it was very uncommon.
August 29 at 8:52am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^subject to debate^
August 29 at 8:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I think this idea of married sex being the same sort of thing as unmarried sex, just less sinful get some things seriously wrong about marriage.
August 29 at 8:53am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I think the Fathers would say so.
August 29 at 8:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia Fair enough. Then living with a spouse is venially sinful
August 29 at 8:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, that's because the Fathers were seriously uncomfortable with sexual desire. Good new, though, we don't have to be!
August 29 at 8:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think that would be a gross mis-characterization of what the fathers and the church teach.
August 29 at 8:54am · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe come on, man, you've read Augustine
August 29 at 8:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For many, Michael, probably. But that is not in opposition to it being a pathway to holiness.
August 29 at 8:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know about that. Look at secular Roman History, and they were living at a time when sexual mores were arguably worse than now
August 29 at 8:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Marriage is supposed to end in celibacy.
August 29 at 8:54am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ?????
August 29 at 8:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What, you mean, when one of us dies?
August 29 at 8:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia and every Martha has to end up a Mary Magdalene, right?
August 29 at 8:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Precisely.^
August 29 at 8:58am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. the better part does not mean the only part
August 29 at 8:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Of course not.
August 29 at 8:58am · Like
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Michael Beitia Crap, I knew I should have become a Studite......
August 29 at 8:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, "If you would be perfect..."
August 29 at 8:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman See, the Church is not afraid of venial sin.
August 29 at 8:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'd study more math. and reason to perfection
August 29 at 8:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is okay to not be living the life of perfection right now.
August 29 at 8:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm confused. Why would you say that married sex is almost always venially sinful if you affirm that it is good to desire your spouse?
August 29 at 8:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One just wants to end there.
August 29 at 8:59am · Like · 1
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Joel HF In heaven, all will be celibate. But no one will really be married either, unless you are talking mystically and with Christ.
August 29 at 9:00am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Just to be very clear: I only hold this position with very tentatively. The reason I do hold it, is because I don't know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the Church.
August 29 at 9:01am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You keep talking about the Scriptures! What Scriptures?
August 29 at 9:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia this ties in well with the distinction between "personhood" and "human" from the above heaven discussion
August 29 at 9:03am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I think our culture has a huge blind spot re celibacy--namely that it is impossible unless one is some sort of a-sexual freak. St. Paul, otoh, clearly wants everyone to be as celibate as they are able to be, even if they are married I think. The Fathers run with this in weird directions, imo, but even JPII (at least, according to some readings) held that celibacy was a universal goal for christians. (NB: I haven't read any JPII.)
August 29 at 9:04am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman 1Cor 7:1-3 - It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 But for fear of fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband.
August 29 at 9:05am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- Paul never indicates in the least that he would like married people to be celibate, quite the reverse.
August 29 at 9:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The idea is that this is to avoid "burning."
August 29 at 9:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, and he gives lots of reasons for this position, none of which are that married sex is sinful.
August 29 at 9:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "I wish all could be as I am..."
August 29 at 9:06am · Like
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Joel HF Samantha-- I don't think St. Paul thought married sex was sinful.
August 29 at 9:07am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because he is able to focus entirely on the gospel, not because married sex is sinful
August 29 at 9:07am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, that's the conclusion Daniel is drawing
August 29 at 9:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No. I am not.^^^
August 29 at 9:08am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger no
August 29 at 9:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful.
August 29 at 9:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And condemned I think.
August 29 at 9:08am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, that married infertile sex is venially sinful.
August 29 at 9:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will say that again.
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia and married fertile sex, if one isn't pondering the procreative aspect
August 29 at 9:09am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful.
August 29 at 9:09am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Samantha: This is the passage I was thinking of "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No need! I revised!
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I would not say that either.
August 29 at 9:09am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger no again
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nor have I.
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But you did say that!
August 29 at 9:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia not "inherently" just most usually
August 29 at 9:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I said: It seems that the Fathers and St. Paul would teach us that marital act that deliberately avoids conception would be venially sinful.
August 29 at 9:10am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe "At the same time, they would say that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids pregnancy would be venially sinful in the context of marriage."
August 29 at 9:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe right.
August 29 at 9:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
August 29 at 9:11am · Like
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Joel HF 1 Corinthians 7:5--I take St. Paul in that passage to be recommending continence to married couples, but counseling against over-doing it "Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
August 29 at 9:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel Lendman is a Puritan!
August 29 at 9:11am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman That is different that saying "Infertile sex is sinful."
August 29 at 9:11am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and also:"The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."
August 29 at 9:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Damn it! I have been found out.
August 29 at 9:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Don't tell my wife!
August 29 at 9:11am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger not pondering, mb, but rather "that not being the end" mb
August 29 at 9:11am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm telliing Pope Bonbon
August 29 at 9:11am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I have to take my kids to school and go to the gym. I leave this to you, Michael. Though I guess we have already won.
August 29 at 9:12am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia My wife takes the kids to school. I'm already at "work"
August 29 at 9:13am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And I changed this: "The cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."
To
"A cool thing about marriage is that something that normally would be mortally sinful, becomes merely venially sinful."
August 29 at 9:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman My kids aren't old enough for school...
August 29 at 9:13am · Like
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Joel HF Beitia--you are just now figuring this out? Also, you should have seen/heard Big Angry Daniel at TAC. I think he wanted the women's dress-code to be Burkas at all times, even in the dorm.
August 29 at 9:15am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger NOT PURITANICAL. that is just pbish lack of distinguishing and you know it.
August 29 at 9:14am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Wait! It's August! School in August is immoral.
August 29 at 9:14am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia It's a joke.... I kid, I kid
August 29 at 9:14am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^I took no offense.
August 29 at 9:14am · Like
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Michael Beitia hell I have 2 in junior high
August 29 at 9:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel, I was always misunderstood.
August 29 at 9:14am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia <----old
August 29 at 9:14am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman and that was not helped by a severe lack of prudence.
August 29 at 9:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Wow.
August 29 at 9:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman You are old!
August 29 at 9:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I mean...
August 29 at 9:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Great!
August 29 at 9:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman
August 29 at 9:16am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Daniel--I know. And re "severe lack of prudence" you and me both!
August 29 at 9:17am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think part of the challenge to this view has to do with individualism.
August 29 at 9:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think that the Fathers and ancients in general had a much more robust notion of the unity of humanity.
August 29 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, that is the best thing I have ever seen you post.
August 29 at 9:18am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I mean, it kind of came out of nowhere, but still...
August 29 at 9:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If your contributions continue along that vein, we can be friends!
August 29 at 9:19am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^Don't speak too soon^
Linda Blair always comes back
August 29 at 9:20am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Samantha--I would like to hear your take on what I said about St. Paul and continence above--as your duties to your family allow, of course.
August 29 at 9:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In re to the above: I think the stronger notion of the union of humanity helped them see how marriage and children are really ordered to the good of all humanity.
August 29 at 9:21am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^Me too^
August 29 at 9:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One more qualifier: The position I have forwarded is not one that "I want" to be true. I am really earnestly, and honestly just trying to understand where the teachings of Scripture and the Fathers take us.
August 29 at 9:22am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger . . . . better notions about lots really. They are far more coherent than we in our incoherence give them credit. They were young we are old; they robust we decrepit. The oracle has spoken.
August 29 at 9:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I also don't accept, as a rule, that the Fathers all were weird about sex. That might be true, but I would be loathe to assume that and dismiss their counsel.
August 29 at 9:23am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The intellectual customs of our day are too suspect for us to dismiss the Fathers so summarily.
August 29 at 9:24am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger YES DL YES
August 29 at 9:24am · Like
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Joel HF In any event, to complete my thought from above, I think the modern view of continence is self-fulfilling. If all are taught that continence is impossible (and probably shows some sort of psychologically harmful “repression” anyway), then no-one will be continent.
For this reason, I think it is useful to listen to counsel from other ages with an open-mind.
August 29 at 9:25am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema
August 29 at 9:25am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hahaha! Remember when you started that petition to make the dress code stricter? Good times. : )
August 29 at 9:25am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger caeci caecos . . . . . baby. All i am saying.
August 29 at 9:25am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^which is why I tend to agree with listening to other ages wisdom
August 29 at 9:25am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia at the same time, we need to understand how marriage leads the married to sanctity, not just "Makes moral sin venial"
August 29 at 9:27am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia and somewhere along the way we missed 6666
August 29 at 9:27am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe St Paul's semi-rejection of marriage had nothing to do with sex, but was rather about his desire that everyone should be free to serve the gospel without distraction
August 29 at 9:28am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, he would have been REALLY against the Thread
August 29 at 9:28am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Samantha, how do you take the passage I quoted then? One of the distractions is sex/sexual desire.
August 29 at 9:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger REMEMBER. Lust is a sin that partictularly blinds too. And i am not claiming to be the one eyed in a land o the blind neither.
August 29 at 9:28am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia labor me vocat. later
August 29 at 9:29am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I mean otherwise his advice to everyone would be to leave their wives/husbands and become a hermit.
August 29 at 9:29am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^(Certain church fathers may have actually given this adivce, in fact.)
August 29 at 9:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger in marriage i take sanctification to mean a development (did i use that word) from physical union to spiritual with God (first) and spouse.
August 29 at 9:32am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I am strongly tempted --just so that this thread may cover every hot button Catholic/TAC issue, mind you--to post a few comments on the SSPX. Must. Resist. Urge.
August 29 at 9:32am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I think that reading of St. Paul is perhaps tenable.
I think that Joel HF is right, though, that you would have to account for this verse: "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
August 29 at 9:32am · Like · 2
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Lucy Zepeda I am so tempted to wade into this but I no I shouldn't get caught.
August 29 at 9:33am · Like · 2
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Lucy Zepeda know*!
August 29 at 9:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Also, your reading of St. Paul in that regard would not, seemingly, be in the accord with the tradition.
August 29 at 9:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which doesn't mean that your position is wrong.
August 29 at 9:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Too late Lucy. You're in.
August 29 at 9:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman And tagged.
August 29 at 9:34am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That would only be his advice if he didn't recognize the obligations spouses have to each other, which he clearly did
August 29 at 9:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Neverending Thread will not release you.
August 29 at 9:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't follow you, Samantha. Can you explain?
August 29 at 9:35am · Like
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Joel HF (NB--once again, my position isn't that St. Paul was against sex in marriage. But he did counsel (not command!) periodic continence, imo.)
August 29 at 9:35am · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews YO SCOTTY BOY! Care to explain how Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who's been dead since 2011, could give you a blurb for your book you allegedly wrote? The one you have a kickstarter for now. Three years after he died.
August 29 at 9:37am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes.^
August 29 at 9:35am · Like
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John Ruplinger reading of the early Canadian martyrs, the married pioneers did at a point start living without intercourse. Edifying not puritanical.
August 29 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Lucy Zepeda Okay, fine, I'm in. I don't think that the fact that virginity for the sake of the Kingdom is the higher calling means that the lesser calling is in any way sinful. And what does that have to do with the NFP issue itself?
August 29 at 9:36am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Adrw, I would appreciate your input, too.
August 29 at 9:37am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda The neverending thread won't release me AND it made me spill coffee on myself.
August 29 at 9:37am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman So, just to be clear, the position that it seems like the Scriptures and the Fathers would hold is that the conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation is venially sinful.
August 29 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that doesn't make sense from a continence aspect.
August 29 at 9:39am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda What MB said.
August 29 at 9:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No one here, to my knowledge, thinks that the marital act is sinful per se.
August 29 at 9:39am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia it is the lack of a conjugal act that deliberately avoids procreation
August 29 at 9:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Again, "It is an abomination to say that the conjugal union is inherently sinful."
August 29 at 9:40am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda Also, if that's true, Daniel , how do you reconcile that with the Church's approval of NFP?
August 29 at 9:40am · Like
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John Boyer So too is dieting then.
August 29 at 9:40am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia IF continence is sinfully, even venial, then how often are married couples required to perform the marital act during fertile periods?
August 29 at 9:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Immediately I don't know.
August 29 at 9:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia is it like going to confession once a year (minimum)?
August 29 at 9:41am · Like · 1
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John Boyer To cite Janet Smith's argument.
August 29 at 9:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia If I'm not obligated to have sex, then how is avoiding it sinful? It is only a sin if I'm obligated. So how often to I have to?
August 29 at 9:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, I don't see why it is wrong for the Church to encourage an act that is venially sinful.
August 29 at 9:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is better that mortal sin.
August 29 at 9:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman There is nothing wrong with celibacy.
August 29 at 9:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, I meant continence.
August 29 at 9:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Did you eat for the taste alone? Did you make the meal all special and fancy and about more than fulfilling bodily urges to sustain your body?
SINNER
August 29 at 9:43am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman There is not reason that would involve a venial sin.
August 29 at 9:42am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda Wha? Do you really think the Church is encouraging venial sin?
August 29 at 9:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^No.^
August 29 at 9:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just don't see why it would be a problem.
August 29 at 9:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ..if it did.
August 29 at 9:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because she ultimately tells everyone to strive for celibacy.
August 29 at 9:44am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda Okay, this argument just seems crazy to me
August 29 at 9:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, the problem is not pleasure. The problem is disordered pleasure.
August 29 at 9:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Maybe, it is wrong. Again, it seems that the scripture and the Fathers support it.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like
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John Boyer With the food example?
August 29 at 9:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman And the traditions of the Church.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Is it a venial sin to eat ice cream or candy? I mean, it really doesn't have much nutritional value at all.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman No.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like
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John Boyer I don't drink wine to hydrate myself.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But eating too much would be.
August 29 at 9:45am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Good.
August 29 at 9:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And thus doesn't please in virtue of fulfilling the central natural end of eating.
August 29 at 9:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But drinking too much would be bad.
August 29 at 9:46am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda The ultimately striving for celibacy thing means, as far as I can tell, that all are destined for the wedding feast of the Lamb and no one will be having sex with anybody there. Meanwhile some live that now, as celibates. But the idea that married people should strive to be more and more celibate is cuh-razy (and probably contrary to their vows?)
August 29 at 9:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^in fact marriage is ordered to celibacy. Ideally even here.
August 29 at 9:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman in this life.
August 29 at 9:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman After fertile years.
August 29 at 9:47am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I quoted cannon X on marriage from Trent earlier, everyone agrees (lest the anathema) that celibacy is the better part.
Some of us are Martha
August 29 at 9:47am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But not necessarily.
August 29 at 9:47am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda Ummm
August 29 at 9:48am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda That umm is about celibacy in infertile years.
August 29 at 9:48am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I guess most or half or at least 40% of all eating even outside of gluttony/too much quantitatively would be sinful under this definition.
August 29 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What definition?
August 29 at 9:49am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Or line of thinking.
August 29 at 9:49am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Certainly booze and candy would be at least venial sins. Heh. Individual act not ordered to the central or primary natural end.
August 29 at 9:51am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger true Matthew. And this has been the constant cousel until very recent. ^^^^
August 29 at 9:54am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman "For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends [beyond procreation], such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is preserved."
August 29 at 9:52am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman The same thing would follow with regard to booze and candy.
August 29 at 9:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia No Lucy, that was about religious versus married
August 29 at 9:54am · Like
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Pater Edmund I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.
August 29 at 9:54am · Like · 9
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Michael Beitia Lendman, what do you take "intrinsic nature of the act" to mean?\
August 29 at 9:54am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Wha??
August 29 at 9:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia TNET touches on all things, Pater.
August 29 at 9:55am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia wha what??
August 29 at 9:55am · Like
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Pater Edmund Have you noticed that if you use text->speech feature on mac to catch up on the thread the robo-voice sounds like a valley girl because it says "like" constantly?
August 29 at 9:56am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Wha everything
August 29 at 9:56am · Like · 2
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Jason Van Boom >>I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.<<
The Catholic version of Godwin's Law.
August 29 at 9:56am · Like · 8
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Pater Edmund Here's something I wrote on NFP on another thread. (Not written for TACers so forgive the "Philosophy of Nature for Dummies" part):
«I’ve been mulling this over, and there are lots of things I would like to say, but I I’ll just respond to what Steve H wrote above about nature, since I think the meaning of “nature” is really key to thinking about these things. I’m not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would like, but I’ll give it a try.
When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term “nature” they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it is. So the “nature” of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops growing, stretches out toward the sun, bears fruit, etc. Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a goal, toward a good, that the thing is supposed to realize. So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to realize. But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of knowledge, so St. Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on creatures; the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its end. This is the sense of nature from which natural law is derived: human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek self-preservation, reproduction, friendship, knowledge of God etc. and to shun what is destructive of those goods.
Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it is. A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it has, a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a tree. A human person on the other hand is human because of her nature. Now, this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural things, but also to human _actions_ and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. Human actions, because they are directed by human nature, can be said to “have” “a nature.” One can look a kind of human actions and ask “what is the nature of this sort of act”–i.e. what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act has. In our case one can ask “What is the nature of the sexual act? What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something else?”
I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP vs. contraception. It too is an example that many people find hard to understand, and for the same reason, but I think it can help us to understand what “natural” means in this context. The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs lying. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “By its very _nature_, lying is to be condemned.” (2485) This is based on St. Thomas’s analysis of the nature of speech. Speech is by “nature” ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her mind, if she (or he I’m trying not to offend anyone here…) says something which is directly contrary to what she thinks, then she violates the nature of speech, the action is “unnatural.” Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be good. Nevertheless, in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by equivocation, that is by saying something true which they are liable to misunderstand. Classic example: St. Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by boat, orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the persecutors, the persecutors ask his men “have you seen Athanasius,” and his men answer (on his orders), “yes, he is near by.” The persecutors hurry on up stream.
What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a situation? In both cases one is intending to deceive. But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of speech–it’s the wrong _kind_ of act that you are doing. When you equivocate you are certainly not _intending_ to communicate truth, but the act nevertheless is the right _kind_ of act, it has the _nature_ of true speech, even though in this case you sure hope it won’t succeed in communicating truth.
The case of NFP and contraception is similar.
The primary end of sexual intercourse is reproduction. Of course sex also realizes other goods: the union of the spouses, pleasure etc. But the one that defines it, that makes it to be what it is, that gives it it’s nature is reproduction.
Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech realizes–speech also strengthens relationships, sounds nice etc. But it is communicating truth that gives speech its nature–it is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others flow. Hence St. Thomas teaches that one even the so-called “friendly lie” (lying out of politeness: “you look great”), or the jocose lie (April fool’s jokes), are sinful.
So the question w/r/t contraception is: “What kind of act is this?” What Paul VI teaches (and John Paul II expands on at great length), is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is doing–it’s not just that one is not _intending_ to re-produce, it’s that the kind of act one is choosing is not a re-productive kind of act all. It doesn’t have the nature of proper sex, and hence it is unnatural. It is like a lie.
NFP on the other hand is more like equivocation. In an emergency situation (whether caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or whatever), one does not want the sexual act to result in pregnancy. So one chooses to engage in a true sexual act, but in such a way that it will not result in pregnancy. Just as Athanasius’s sailors say something _true_ but in a way that will not communicate the truth.
This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true one. The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind force, rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine wisdom. That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae Vitae. I think the main point of Bl. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based on. In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of God; about the impression in us of the divine wisdom.»
August 29 at 9:57am · Like · 2
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Drew Summitt <<>>I knew the thread would turn to a discussion of sexual intercourse eventually.<<
but muh theology of the body.
August 29 at 9:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "For intercourse of marriage for the sake of begetting hs not fault; but for the satisfying of lust, but yet with husband or wife, by reason of the faith of the bed, it has venial fault;"
Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, 6.
August 29 at 10:00am · Like
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Joel HF I'm just waiting for the inevitable SSPX discussions.
August 29 at 10:00am · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund I also agree with Samantha up to a point about certain things the Fathers say about women being not quite right. But the Fathers are nothing compared to our very own Saint Albert the Great. I'm afraid St. Albert had some bad experiences with a lady in Cologne that rather colored his view of the fairer sex.
August 29 at 10:00am · Like · 7
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Bekah Sims Andrews Yeah....or St. Jerome. His blowing up when some lady friend of his announced she was getting married. EPIC.
August 29 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia which is to say there is no replacement for a well-formed conscience and a good spiritual director
August 29 at 10:02am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ain't no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite St. Augustine.
August 29 at 10:02am · Like · 6
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Joel HF Lucy--weren't St. Thérèse of Lisieux's parents celibate for large periods of their marriage? I don't see what they would be wrong. I also don't see why the converse would be wrong either, of course.
August 29 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Epic win^ "Ain't no Puritan like a Catholic Puritan because a Catholic Puritan can cite St. Augustine"
August 29 at 10:35am · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund St Albert on women part one:
August 29 at 10:03am · Like
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Joel HF And of course, St. Jerome, and St. Albert, and St. Francis de Sales, etc.
August 29 at 10:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Lips that sin by eating candy shall not touch my own!
August 29 at 10:03am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund 2:
August 29 at 10:03am · Like
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Pater Edmund 3:
August 29 at 10:04am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Joel HF, my understanding was that Louis and Zellie WANTED to be celibate, but were told no by their spiritual director.
August 29 at 10:04am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund 4:
August 29 at 10:04am · Like
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Joel HF Father Buckley's argument against smoking is that no woman (or man, as appropriate) would want to kiss you if you had smoker's breath. But he is a Jesuit, of course, and not to be trusted.
August 29 at 10:04am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund All from: http://books.google.at/books?id=vCFFpzofHqIC&lpg=PA5...
Questions Concerning Aristotle's On Animals (The Fathers of the Church,...
BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT
August 29 at 10:05am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Ah Magnus, Magnus, Magnus. SMH.
August 29 at 10:05am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Bekah Sims--that could be right, but I thought they were celibate for a long while before (under their spiritual director) discerning a call for children. I don't have any position here, but I don't see why a couple that mutually agreed to abstain for a period of time (even a long period of time, if they were able) would be doing anything wrong. Just as I don't see why a couple that didn't abstain would be doing anything wrong either.
August 29 at 10:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Another thing that we should perhaps think about is that some things were just lost in The Fall. It is certainly true that concupiscence is one of the things man must always live with. I think this was driving a great deal of what the Fathers were saying and thinking about marriage.
August 29 at 10:07am · Like
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Lucy Zepeda I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong of course about a married couple deciding to be celibate (though I think it's kind of weird) if it is a mutual decision. But I don't think it is what marriage is ordered to as Daniel said. Nor is not doing so a venial sin.
August 29 at 10:08am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Joel....I would think if both spouses were on board, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. Unless their motivations were off. Or it was based misunderstanding of Church teaching. Which wouldn't make them wrong, but make the situation not good.
August 29 at 10:08am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I would actually be interested in hearing what people think of my lying:equivocation::contraception:NFP proportion above.
August 29 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Would you guys just chill til I'm done working out?
August 29 at 10:09am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman As I said above, I have no attachment to any outcome to this argument. Sadly, all that seems to be said against what seems to be the position of the Fathers and Scripture and Tradition is "It's Puritanical!"
August 29 at 10:09am · Unlike · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews I would think if being celibate was a choice in marriage....is indicative of something amiss. Perhaps physically or something, because it isn't natural. And it isn't how God designed marriage.
August 29 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Joel HF That St. Albert article is highly amusing!
August 29 at 10:10am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Daniel--I don't think that's fair. Arguments have been given on both sides. Other than a few jokes, no one (here at least) is dismissing any of the positions out of hand, I don't think. Which is amazing, given the subject and the forum.
August 29 at 10:11am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews Pater Edmund, I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments above.....feel free to repeat it for me. (pretty please)
August 29 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ahh . . . Like grandad used to say: its much easier to ridicule ones father than try to understand.
August 29 at 10:11am · Like
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--this thread moves way too fast. Where did you give that proportion or whatever?
August 29 at 10:33am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund OK, Bekah, repeating. Sorry it's kind of long:
Here's something I wrote on NFP on another thread. (Not written for TACers so forgive the "Philosophy of Nature for Dummies" part):
«I’ve been mulling this over, and there are lots of things I would like to say, but I I’ll just respond to what Steve H wrote above about nature, since I think the meaning of “nature” is really key to thinking about these things. I’m not sure whether I can say this as clearly as I would like, but I’ll give it a try.
When the fathers and doctors of the Church use the term “nature” they usually mean by it a principle change and rest that is in a thing making that thing be what it is. So the “nature” of a tree is the principle in the tree according to which the tree grows and stops growing, stretches out toward the sun, bears fruit, etc. Now this nature is seen as being directed toward a goal, toward a good, that the thing is supposed to realize. So nature is a kind of direction within a thing toward a particular good that it is supposed to realize. But to be directed toward a the good presupposes some kind of knowledge, so St. Thomas Aquinas defines nature as a kind of impression of the Divine Reason on creatures; the nature of each thing is a kind of participation in the divine wisdom by which that thing is directed towards its end. This is the sense of nature from which natural law is derived: human beings are directed by this innate impression of divine wisdom to seek self-preservation, reproduction, friendship, knowledge of God etc. and to shun what is destructive of those goods.
Now nature in this sense is what makes a thing to be what it is. A tree is a tree because of the sort of participation in the divine wisdom that it has, a participation that orders it to the sort of good that can be realized by a tree. A human person on the other hand is human because of her nature. Now, this sense of nature applies not only to human beings as natural things, but also to human _actions_ and this is the crucial point for understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. Human actions, because they are directed by human nature, can be said to “have” “a nature.” One can look a kind of human actions and ask “what is the nature of this sort of act”–i.e. what is the innate ordering to a goal that this kind of act has. In our case one can ask “What is the nature of the sexual act? What is the innate order toward a good goal in it that makes it to be sexual intercourse and not something else?”
I want to discuss an example that I think is closely parallel to the example of the sexual act and NFP vs. contraception. It too is an example that many people find hard to understand, and for the same reason, but I think it can help us to understand what “natural” means in this context. The example I have in mind is telling the truth and deceiving by equivocation vs lying. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “By its very _nature_, lying is to be condemned.” (2485) This is based on St. Thomas’s analysis of the nature of speech. Speech is by “nature” ordered to communicate the thoughts that a person has in her mind, if she (or he I’m trying not to offend anyone here…) says something which is directly contrary to what she thinks, then she violates the nature of speech, the action is “unnatural.” Thus the whole class of actions called lies is intrinsically bad and can never be good. Nevertheless, in certain emergences it can be morally good to deceive someone by equivocation, that is by saying something true which they are liable to misunderstand. Classic example: St. Athanasius fleeing his persecutors by boat, orders his men to turn the boat around and sail straight toward the persecutors, the persecutors ask his men “have you seen Athanasius,” and his men answer (on his orders), “yes, he is near by.” The persecutors hurry on up stream.
What is the difference between lying and equivocating in such a situation? In both cases one is intending to deceive. But in the case of a lie you are directly acting against the nature of the act of speech–it’s the wrong _kind_ of act that you are doing. When you equivocate you are certainly not _intending_ to communicate truth, but the act nevertheless is the right _kind_ of act, it has the _nature_ of true speech, even though in this case you sure hope it won’t succeed in communicating truth.
The case of NFP and contraception is similar.
The primary end of sexual intercourse is reproduction. Of course sex also realizes other goods: the union of the spouses, pleasure etc. But the one that defines it, that makes it to be what it is, that gives it it’s nature is reproduction.
Similarly communicating the truth is not the only good that speech realizes–speech also strengthens relationships, sounds nice etc. But it is communicating truth that gives speech its nature–it is the primary natural end of speech from which all the others flow. Hence St. Thomas teaches that one even the so-called “friendly lie” (lying out of politeness: “you look great”), or the jocose lie (April fool’s jokes), are sinful.
So the question w/r/t contraception is: “What kind of act is this?” What Paul VI teaches (and John Paul II expands on at great length), is that contraception changes the kind of act that one is doing–it’s not just that one is not _intending_ to re-produce, it’s that the kind of act one is choosing is not a re-productive kind of act all. It doesn’t have the nature of proper sex, and hence it is unnatural. It is like a lie.
NFP on the other hand is more like equivocation. In an emergency situation (whether caused by unjust economic structures or sickness or whatever), one does not want the sexual act to result in pregnancy. So one chooses to engage in a true sexual act, but in such a way that it will not result in pregnancy. Just as Athanasius’s sailors say something _true_ but in a way that will not communicate the truth.
This is hard to see for us because the modern idea of nature is very different from the true one. The natural world is seen by the moderns as a kind of machine with parts acted on by blind force, rather than an order of things directed from within by impressions of the divine wisdom. That I think is why so many people protested against Humanae Vitae. I think the main point of Bl. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body is to try to recover the traditional view of the nature of the human acts that this teaching is based on. In the final audience he says that the whole series was ordered to understanding the teaching of Humanae Vitae. What he tries to show finally is that this teaching is about our very structure as creatures of God; about the impression in us of the divine wisdom.»
August 29 at 10:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Daniel, it's not that it's Puritanical, it's that those comments lack the fullness of truth as taught by the Church. Augustine's views on marriage and sex aren't what come from the Chair of Peter.
August 29 at 10:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund, my object to the comparison is that deception is only permissible when one is deceiving someone who is not a valid authority. To describe this more generically:
The situation must be an emergency and with regard to something that is not owed anything more by right.
It seems that, with NFP, there is always a "legitimate authority," or someone that is owed something more, namely, (I think) humanity, and the Church.
August 29 at 10:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman and God?
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Daniel Lendman Well, Casti Conubii could be seen as Augustine's On the Good of Marriage made into an encyclical.
August 29 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Good morning everyone I have a Jesus Montero update for you
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140829...
Not Found
MILB.COM
August 29 at 10:16am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I don't know why it says not found because the link is not broken.
August 29 at 10:17am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Since new people have arrived I should make a few things clear that I said above: Just to be very clear: I only hold this position with very tentatively. The reason I do hold it, is because I don't know how else to read the Scriptures and the Fathers and appreciate the tradition of the Church.
August 29 at 10:17am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, what you said above is fair.
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Pater Edmund I don't think your objections stands, Big Angry Daniel, because in an emergency situation you aren't doing the Church any harm by using NFP.
August 29 at 10:17am · Like · 1
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Joel HF What did I say above?
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John Ruplinger Pater, i dont think it works. NFP seems ordered to mitigating concupiscence and thus venial. We ought to strive higher not that i do. We deny flesh to be increase spiritually - thus do we grow one with our end and paradoxically more unified with our spouse.
August 29 at 10:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF about people giving arguments,
August 29 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If one is deliberately avoiding conception, isn't one deliberately avoiding bringing more members into the Church?
August 29 at 10:19am · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF If Dan is Big Angry again, is Pater Edmund "Tommy Wally" now too? Or does the dignity of his office as a priest (and not of course his personal dignity--a prophet in his own country [alma mater] and all that--) preclude such nicknames?
August 29 at 10:19am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Pater, Tommy Wally Edmund.
August 29 at 10:20am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So, Ruplinger, your position is that equivocation is sometimes better than silence, but continence is always better than NFP? Is that what you are saying?
August 29 at 10:20am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^This doesn't seem unreasonable.
August 29 at 10:21am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews I think I see the comparison you are making Pater Edmund, but I don't agree. For a couple using the naturally occurring infertile time, there is nothing different in the act on their part. The fact that it does not bring for a child is simply a result of the nature God created. They are still completely ordered towards life.
August 29 at 10:21am · Like · 1
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Lucy Zepeda WHy??
August 29 at 10:21am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews NFP is continence.
August 29 at 10:21am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund But Bekah, equivocation is ordered toward truth in exactly the same sense.
August 29 at 10:22am · Like
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John Ruplinger continence and NFP have different aims. So yes.
August 29 at 10:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Except when one deliberately engages in the conjugal act at such a time that one will not conceive.
August 29 at 11:03am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF I don't see why it would have to be venial. Perhaps NFP wouldn't be the best response, just as marriage is lower than virginity, but that something is imperfect does not make it sinful.
August 29 at 10:22am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews Daniel, no that's not right. There is no hall of souls waiting to be released into the Church. There are unique individuals endowed with a unique soul created by God at the moment of their conception.
August 29 at 10:23am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "equivocation is ordered toward truth in exactly the same sense" - as is TNET?
August 29 at 10:23am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman True, Joel HF
August 29 at 10:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The problem is concupiscence.
August 29 at 10:23am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews No, continence and NFP do not, necessarily, have different ends.
August 29 at 10:23am · Like
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Pater Edmund Alright, I'm going to go read some heretical German moral theology now. (For my studies, not for fun).
August 29 at 10:25am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Bekah, that is not what was trying to imply.
August 29 at 10:24am · Like
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Joel HF Also, even now, times of infertility is not an exact science. Certainly at the time of the Fathers, there would have been very little way to determine when a child was or was not likely to result.
August 29 at 10:24am · Like · 2
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Lucy Zepeda Okay, why is making use of the infertile time necessarily concupiscent? I mean it might be, but that seems accidental. The real moral issue, it seems to me, is whether or not there is a good reason to avoid the fertile time
August 29 at 10:24am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews I guess I see equivocation as trying to cheat your way out of telling the truth, kinda the whole Jesuit mental reservation thing, and maybe I don't understand it properly. But using naturally occurring infertile times isn't waffling on the truth in any way shape or form. It's using the time God created.
August 29 at 10:25am · Like
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Katie Duda If procreation always had to be primary, then it would seem a serious scandal when persons , who through age or infirmity cannot conceive, marry?
August 29 at 10:26am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^Agreed w/ Lucy above.
August 29 at 10:26am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews OK, Daniel. I just don't think you can say that by being NOT pregnant you are keeping members from the church.
August 29 at 10:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Lucy, I don't know the answer to this question: Okay, why is making use of the infertile time necessarily concupiscent?
but I think the answer is concupiscence.
August 29 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Katie Duda--everyone knows that old people marrying is just gross.
August 29 at 10:26am · Like · 4
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Bekah Sims Andrews Why Daniel? I mean, what leads you to that answer to Lucy's question?
August 29 at 10:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman When children are a distinct possibility, the act is inherently unselfish and then open to being done without sin. Though even this is hard to accomplish.
August 29 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman VENIAL SIN IS NOT GRAVE!
August 29 at 10:30am · Edited · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews But, that's the thing with NFP.....children are always a distinct possibility. Even when you think you're using an infertile time. I just changed infertile time's diaper.
August 29 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No one should worry about lusting over his spouse.
August 29 at 10:28am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Chances are people can't distinguish between lusting over their spouse and having ordered desires.
August 29 at 10:29am · Like
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Joel HF Venial sin isn't grave, but it is serious.
August 29 at 10:29am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Only if it is habitual and leads one away from God.
August 29 at 10:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But that is what I meant by serious Joel HF. I will edit.
August 29 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews No, sin is bad. Always. And to be avoided, always. And having sex with your wife, when her chances of getting pregnant are slim.....not a sin. It's a good.
August 29 at 10:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Similarly, the jocular lie is a sin, but you probably have a lot worse sins to work on and confess.
August 29 at 10:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So don't worry too much.
August 29 at 10:31am · Like
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Katie Duda Also, I thought having sex was suppose to be a source of grace in marriage?
August 29 at 10:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Bekah, if it is without concupiscence.
August 29 at 10:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Katie, I think that is right.
August 29 at 10:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, venial sin can mitigate the efficaciousness of it.
August 29 at 10:33am · Edited · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Sex during fertile times most certainly been done with concupiscence as well. The timing isn't what makes it good, it's the spirit in which one approaches the spouse.
August 29 at 10:34am · Like · 3
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Katie Duda Here is a thought: a stable and loving relationship with your spouse is suppose to be the best thing you can do for your kids... Sex is suppose to help that. Does this mean even infertile-time sex can be for the greater benefit of the family?
August 29 at 10:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^I agree.
August 29 at 10:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes, in lieu of causing problems with the marriage.
August 29 at 10:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But it would be better to remain continent during that time.
August 29 at 10:35am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews in my eyes Katie, yes. Also, denying yourself at any time in the marriage, especially for the greater good of the marriage, children and spouses, is a great good.
August 29 at 10:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It would seem.
August 29 at 10:35am · Like
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Tim Cantu I have two kids and I've never thought about sex this much in my life.
August 29 at 10:36am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger we want to be better than habituated to venial sin: ergo the interest in this discussion. But i agree that continence leads to closer union with God AND spouse, but thir is only possible by grace and it is inconceivable ( ) in our society: et eam tenebrae non comprehenderunt.
August 29 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews No it wouldn't. It would be better to use the body, as created by God. Which means naturally occurring ebbs and flows to fertility. God created the body to carry life only sometimes.
August 29 at 10:36am · Like
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Katie Duda I bring it up to say that a procreative intent even if the chances of conception are low.
August 29 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is important to remember that the process of moral growth and development is practical. It is not open to an imposition of ideals. We should not be surprised if most of us take a long time to achieve sanctity. Indeed, the Fathers say that sanctity in marriage progresses at a "hen's pace" (i.e. slowly).
August 29 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Caroline King 2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life.
August 29 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Caroline King Backing your play Bekah Sims Andrews
August 29 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As far as I can tell, there is only one mere creature to whom one can wholly commit oneself that will in no way hinder your growth in holiness, and rather further it, and that is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
August 29 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman "At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation." This is the whole question. What does this mean.
August 29 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu so do I need to become a hermit or not, because if I'm going to make it into the foothills I can see from here before Marie wakes up (don't judge! We're not on Eastern time right now) I'm gonna have to hustle.
August 29 at 10:39am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is a false statement: The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life.
August 29 at 10:40am · Unlike · 2
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Caroline King From the catechism Daniel
August 29 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Tim, you probably aren't being called to be a hermit. So I wouldn't try.
August 29 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Catechism can be wrong.
August 29 at 10:41am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And it is in this case.
August 29 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu That's good, because I'm betting I'd be TERRIBLE at it.
August 29 at 10:41am · Like
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Caroline King Wow, then I won't engage you in further debate
August 29 at 10:41am · Like
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John Ruplinger Daniel, great distinctions above. thanks
August 29 at 10:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "For in matrimony as well as in the use of matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends [beyond procreation], such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscencce which hsband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the insrinsic nature of the act is preserved."
August 29 at 10:41am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Yeah, I don't think we can achieve common ground if we don't accept the Catechism at face value.
August 29 at 10:41am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Caroline you should read Casti Conubii.
August 29 at 10:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know a woman who helped write it.
August 29 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman She will tell you the same.
August 29 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There is a twofold good of marriage as a community of life
August 29 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Why does Casti Conubii trump the Catechism? Shouldn't they both be read together? It's not one or the other. It's both together, with ALL the Church teaching on marriage.
August 29 at 10:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman There is not a twofold purpose, as though one can order marriage to either the union of the spouses or procreation.
August 29 at 10:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Rather,the Church teaches that procreation is the primary end and union or good of spouses is secondary.
August 29 at 10:43am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Catechism is not promulgated dogmatically.
August 29 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews That's not what the Church says. It says the two cannot be separated from each other.
August 29 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or even doctrinally..
August 29 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman True.
August 29 at 10:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But there is an order.
August 29 at 10:44am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews The Catechism is said to be , by the Church, free of error.
August 29 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger CCC has gone through editions bc of mistakes. Catechism of trent is much better: there are many things NOT even in the CCC and they are soooo helpful / ok you can open your eyes again
August 29 at 10:46am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The Catechism is part of the Church's official teaching in the sense that it was suggested by a Synod of Bishops, requested by the Holy Father, prepared and revised by bishops and promulgated by the Holy Father as part of his ordinary Magisterium.
August 29 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman http://www.usccb.org/.../frequently-asked-questions-about...
Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the...
USCCB.ORG
August 29 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Encyclicals are generally part of the extraordinary magesterium
August 29 at 10:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Catechism part of the ordinary magesterium
August 29 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is why I take encyclicals over Catechisms.
August 29 at 10:47am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman CCC is a great place to start, but the reason they reference original documents is because they are not sufficient.
August 29 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda The worldly evidence of people having a sacramental marriage who cannot conceive is dealt with only as the highest good is that of only committing habitual venial sin?
August 29 at 10:49am · Like
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Katie Duda Or a Josephite marriage (shudder)?
August 29 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please convey this to your friend, Caroline, Bekah Sims Andrews. I am afraid I might have scandalized her.
August 29 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Katie, I think that is a more difficult case.
August 29 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I assume that they are open to and desire children, even if it seems unlikely (even very unlikely) that they will conceive.
August 29 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda But a pretty day to day real one nonetheless?
August 29 at 10:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not necessesarily.
August 29 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Intention is everything in moral acts.
August 29 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda not everything
August 29 at 10:51am · Like
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John Hall Is this really happening?
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." John Paul II also stated that the Catechism "is given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine."
August 29 at 10:51am · Like · 3
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John Boyer ALMOST 7000
August 29 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Fair enough. It is everything when evaluating the blame or praiseworthiness of an act.
August 29 at 10:52am · Like
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John Hall "Intention is everything in moral acts"
Mmmmkay well someone needs work on his Moral Theology.
http://www.vatican.va/.../hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis...
Veritatis splendor, Encyclical Letter, John Paul II
The splendour of truth shines forth in all the works of the Creator and, in a special way, in man, created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gen 1:26). Truth enlightens man's intelligence and shapes his freedom, leading him to know and love the Lord. Hence the Psalmist prays: "Let the light of y…
VATICAN.VA
August 29 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, I think this series is going to really help my coment count.
August 29 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What I meant is that intention is what is formal to a moral act.
August 29 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick "The Catechism is part of the Church's ordinary teaching authority."
August 29 at 10:54am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews I'll pass it along to Caroline. And maybe her brother as well. http://catholicapologeticsacademy.com/faculty/jim-burnham/
Jim Burnham - Catholic Apologetics Academy
Jim Burnham currently serves as the director of San Juan...
CATHOLICAPOLOGETICSACADEMY.COM
August 29 at 10:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes. I have read Veritatis Splendor.
August 29 at 10:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes, I have studied and taught moral theology for 8 years.
August 29 at 10:55am · Like
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John Hall Actually, Object is what is considered most formal to determine whether an act is praiseworthy or blameworthy.
August 29 at 10:55am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Pardon me if I slipped in my precision.
August 29 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, I am not going to have this debate with you right now. I am in the middle of another one.
August 29 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman All I will say is, what determines the object?
August 29 at 10:56am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Oh no. Don't debate me.....I'm supposed to be doing countless other things. Really, gotta go!
August 29 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Joel HF But you went to TAC, Daniel Lendman. We aren't ALLOWED to read magisterial documents!
August 29 at 10:56am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Damn. I am found out!
August 29 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm done working out....but now there is too much...
August 29 at 10:57am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Now it is known that I am a Puritanical magesterium quoting, non-dull academic.
August 29 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I feel like this is not the sort of thread where one can confine oneself to a discussion with one person. Engage the mob, or not at all.
August 29 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Joel, I remember all the Magisterial documents were locked up in a cage. You had to get special permission just to LOOK at them.
August 29 at 10:58am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman The thread has no rules.
August 29 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I would like to point out to everyone that Pater Edmund affirmed my earlier, highly disputed statements about the church Fathers
August 29 at 10:58am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Puritan with two kids less than a year apart
August 29 at 10:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng, your paper on the moral act would come in handy, now.
August 29 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please?
August 29 at 10:59am · Like
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Joel HF The CCC stuff should lead nicely into the upcoming SSPX debacle, I mean debate.
August 29 at 10:59am · Like · 3
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John Boyer I remember editing that paper...
August 29 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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John Hall Magisterium magisterium magisterium!!!!
Ima quote paragraph 75 now!
"The morality of the human act depends primarily and fundamentally on the "object" rationally chosen by the deliberate will"
August 29 at 10:59am · Like · 2
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John Boyer I am leaving if SSPX comes up.
August 29 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Sometimes I wonder if you people are real people or if I dream you all.
August 29 at 11:00am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I will have to look for it...
August 29 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Then we are agreed, John.
August 29 at 11:00am · Like
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Tim Cantu Then I remember that my imagination is not nearly this good.
August 29 at 11:00am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh I want that paper too!
August 29 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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John Boyer However we can further analyze the object into formal and material elements.
August 29 at 11:01am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe <<<I think that Joel HF is right, though, that you would have to account for this verse: "Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.">>>
August 29 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Please let's not get into the whole SSPX thing, that's worse than the NFP thing.
August 29 at 11:01am · Like
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Adrw Lng Here's my short ACPA version...not sure what you need I'm not caught up LOL
http://www.scribd.com/.../Andrew-M-Lang-ACPA-2009-Article
August 29 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Going back to that, I would say that there isn't anything I need to account for in that
August 29 at 11:01am · Like
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John Boyer A good source is Fr. Pilsner's book on the Object of the Act. Too bad it's like $100.
August 29 at 11:01am · Like · 3
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John Hall Here's another post!
"By the object of a given moral act, then, one cannot mean a process or an event of the merely physical order, to be assessed on the basis of its ability to bring about a given state of affairs in the outside world. Rather, that object is the proximate end of a deliberate decision which determines the act of willing on the part of the acting person. Consequently, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "there are certain specific kinds of behaviour that are always wrong to choose, because choosing them involves a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil".127 And Saint Thomas observes that "it often happens that man acts with a good intention, but without spiritual gain, because he lacks a good will. Let us say that someone robs in order to feed the poor: in this case, even though the intention is good, the uprightness of the will is lacking. Consequently, no evil done with a good intention can be excused. 'There are those who say: And why not do evil that good may come? Their condemnation is just' (Rom 3:8)"
August 29 at 11:01am · Like
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Adrw Lng ^Outstanding book
August 29 at 11:02am · Like
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John Ruplinger Joel, i dont think anyone here would go to bat for the SSPX. I am closest and wouldnt.
August 29 at 11:02am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Fasting from sex sometimes is recommended, doesn't mean it's usually venially sinful, or whatever Big Angry is claiming.
August 29 at 11:03am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer And a really nice guy. ALthough I remember telling him I was using his book to critique Finnis. Then Dr. Jensen pulled me aside to tell me Finnis directed Pilsner's dissertation. FOOT IN MOUTH.
August 29 at 11:02am · Like · 5
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John Hall ^ lol!
August 29 at 11:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And, Joel, preventing of lust is one of the purposes of marriage. So what? It's not the only purpose, or the main one, it just happens to be the one Paul mentions there
August 29 at 11:03am · Like
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Tim Cantu thanks, everyone, for reminding me that I am a mental midget.
August 29 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I never held that abstinence is venially sinful, neither, to my knowledge, did the Fathers.
August 29 at 11:04am · Unlike · 1
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Adrw Lng Great story John Boyer
August 29 at 11:04am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Well then avoiding conception through abstinence can't be venially sinful
August 29 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Instead of talking about SSPX or NFP, we could always talk about lying to a Nazi when you are hiding Jews in your house. That should be good for several hundred comments.
August 29 at 11:05am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe At least not as an abuse of sex, possibly as an abuse of some other kind, like generosity or something
August 29 at 11:06am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick And we have Thomas for that one! (More directly!)
August 29 at 11:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel brought that up Samantha because your account of why St. Paul recommends against marriage only included "serving the Gospel."
The point is that is seems from that text that St. Paul is encouraging celibacy and allowing the conjugal act.
August 29 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, he's encouraging celibacy and allowing marriage.
August 29 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I can't figure out how to post my MA thesis, I can email a copy if anyone needs it LOL
August 29 at 11:07am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe That's a very different point
August 29 at 11:07am · Like
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Adrw Lng 7000 "at"
August 29 at 11:07am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yes please!
August 29 at 11:07am · Like
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Tim Cantu Adrw: try dropbox and sharing publicly
August 29 at 11:08am · Like · 2
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John Boyer If the act of abstinence is not intrinsically bad, and if the act of having sex at infertile periods is not intrinsically wrong, the intention will have to give species, no?
August 29 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "This is a false statement: The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life."
I'd say it's less wrong than imprecise and given to misinterpretation, Daniel
August 29 at 11:08am · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick (These are times I go to Joshua Kenz and his million moral manuals just waiting to be combed through)
August 29 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I don't. Cause he'll just post 10 paragraphs in Latin and it will take too long to translate.
August 29 at 11:09am · Like · 5
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John Hall Albigensianism is fun!
August 29 at 11:09am · Like
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Adrw Lng Does this work?
http://www.scribd.com/.../Andrew-Lang-MA-Thesis-Complete...
Andrew Lang MA Thesis Complete Archival Version 4-1-11
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
SCRIBD.COM
August 29 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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John Boyer YARP
August 29 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The question comes to this: If one engages in the conjugal act with the intention of avoiding pregnancy, the question comes to this, "why?"
St. Paul seems to encourage spouses to periods of continence and says that if they can't do to temptation (to lust) then they should engage in the marital act.
Spousal unity can be attained and perfectly so in marriage, without the conjugal act.
August 29 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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John Boyer
August 29 at 11:10am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick (I ask for the dummy version)
August 29 at 11:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Paul would love it if everyone would stay single and devote themselves to spreading the gospel. However, he recognizes that some people would burn up with passion if they did that, so he admits that marriage is perfectly fine thing to do. He's not really even talking about sex
August 29 at 11:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You are joining up passages that don't go together. He is not saying spouses should only have sex if they can't stay continent. That is just not there at all.
August 29 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think that agrees with what Daniel just said... The first paragraph you posted
August 29 at 11:11am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Hall Derp
August 29 at 11:11am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It does not
August 29 at 11:11am · Like
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Adrw Lng This thread is moving too fast. This thread is life.
August 29 at 11:11am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman If then, one can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal act, then it seems that the only reason one would seek the conjugal act for the marriage union and not engage in the higher and more unitive practice of continence would be due to some weakness.
August 29 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman This weakness, the Fathers would hold, is generally lust.
August 29 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or more generally, concupiscence.
August 29 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't think Daniel's claim is that forgoing sex at some time is intrinsically wrong. But that deliberately avoiding sex to prevent children is intrinsically wrong because in that case one is willing to avoid children.
Kinda like fasting is not intrinsically wrong but going on a hunger strike is .
August 29 at 11:13am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What??? Who says you can obtain the perfection of marital unity without the conjugal act? That is just... ugh... blargh
August 29 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman NO^
August 29 at 11:13am · Like
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John Hall I think I'm going to be ill
August 29 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, the imprecision of the cycle is irrelevant because all that means is that one would act differently to achieve the end one is willing/
August 29 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Ed, that sounds rather NNL to me. Violate basic goods much?
August 29 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is deliberately engaging in the marital act without the intention of having children is likely venially sinful .
August 29 at 11:14am · Like
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John Ruplinger or . . . . . Daniel to beget children. ^^^^^^
August 29 at 11:16am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, Joseph and Mary say it.
August 29 at 11:14am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe WHY WHY WHY is it likely venially sinful?
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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John Boyer And remember the intention need not be front and center.
August 29 at 11:15am · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Don't think so, NNL's mistake involves not ordering the basic goods
August 29 at 11:15am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Because of concupiscence.
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? Where?
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We simply do not have full control over our appetites.
August 29 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Least of all in the conjugal act.
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So Augustine argues.
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why do we have to?
August 29 at 11:15am · Like
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Edward Langley But, intention is sometimes front and senter, Boyer: if someone _intends_ to murder but fails to for some reason, that intention is a sin.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I said above that intention can give species.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not asking Augustine I'm asking you.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because the proper order in humans is that the appetites are subject to reason.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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John Boyer But intention also includes the object of the act.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like
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Edward Langley And Daniel's position here is that it does give the species.
August 29 at 11:16am · Like
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John Boyer But is the intention present in the abstaince or in the act during "infertile periods"?
August 29 at 11:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I just don't know what not having "full control over our appetites" means in the case of married sex.
August 29 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or, Samantha, it would be perhaps better say, the proper order in humans is that the appetites function reasonably.
August 29 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I can have a continuous intention that every sexual act be directed toward new life insofar as each sexual act is performed in the proper way (non-contraceptively).
August 29 at 11:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I think that is precisely the problem...and a result of the fall.
August 29 at 11:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I am not certain.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So what's unreasonable about wanting to have sex with your spouse?
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I repeat: I AM NOT CERTAIN.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously, lets be clear here.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Oh is Peregrine back? Would someone PLEASE ask him how he got a dead guy to give him a blurb for his new book? Seriously! Would love to use that time machine.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Nothing.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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John Boyer When I have sex during infertile periods, I am not intending not to have children by means of the act.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Is there away to get Facebook to speak these to me so I can get work done?
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And I just don't know what you mean
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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Edward Langley John Boyer, well part of "the proper way" is "at the right time"
August 29 at 11:19am · Like
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John Hall Intention can only confer species on a moral act in a secondary sense.
It seems that the argument is being made is that the sexual act is (in our fallen condition) necessarily spoiled by concupiscence and is therefore in some sense inherently disordered.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Lauren, I think so, actually.
August 29 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . . . in accord with right reason. (is that clearer than "reasonably"?)
August 29 at 11:22am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer So I can only have sex at the right time or I'm guilty of some defect?
August 29 at 11:20am · Like
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John Hall Thus, asking about intention is secondary to answering the question about object
August 29 at 11:20am · Like
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Edward Langley Well, during a dinner party would imply a defect
August 29 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I said it before and I will say it again: To say that the marital act is inherently disordered in any way is an abomination.
August 29 at 11:20am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sigh. Anyway, Joel, did I answer your question?
August 29 at 11:20am · Like
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John Boyer But that's when I want to have sex the MOST!
August 29 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED INN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.
August 29 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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John Boyer ^That's why you can't have sex with plants.
August 29 at 11:22am · Edited · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu what is happening make the voices stop!
August 29 at 11:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Tim, that is called reason.
August 29 at 11:22am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Here's the deal with St. Augustine-- he thinks all sexual desire is lust. He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of children. From that it follow obviously that sex during infertile times is at least venially sinful. But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is lust!
August 29 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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John Hall Okay, that it seems to me that you're saying, Daniel
August 29 at 11:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "he thinks all sexual desire is lust. He thinks the only proper end of sex is the procreation of children."
I don't think the first thing is true Samantha.
I know the second thing is not true.
August 29 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I agree with this: But we should not think that sexual desire within marriage is lust!
August 29 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Based on her likes, Lauren Ogrodnick is my hype man.
August 29 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Fine. I'll go find some quotes later.
August 29 at 11:24am · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe my position is not Dan's. I just think St. Paul counsels (but doesn't command) a certain degree of abstinence in marriage. How one gets from there to venial sin, I don't see.
August 29 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Augustine doesnt say ALL sexual desire is sinful. I find him edifying truly though his sayings be hard.
August 29 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, and my position is not mine, either. I think it is the Father's
August 29 at 11:25am · Like
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Edward Langley "Hence it should be noted that the conjugal act is sometimes meritorious and without any mortal or venial sin, as when it is directed to the good of procreation and education of a child for the worship of God; for then it is an act of religion; or when it is performed for the sake of rendering the debt, it is an act of justice. But every virtuous act is meritorious, if it is performed with charity. But sometimes it is accompanied with venial sin, namely, when one is excited to the matrimonial act by concupiscence, which nevertheless stays within the limits of the marriage, namely, that he is content with his wife only. But sometimes it is performed with mortal sin, as when concupiscence is carried beyond the limits of the marriage; for example, when the husband approaches the wife with the idea that he would just as gladly or more gladly approach another woman. In the first way, therefore, the act of marriage requires no concession; in the second way it obtains a concession, inasmuch as someone consenting to concupiscence toward the wife is not guilty of mortal sin; in the third way there is absolutely no concession."
http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2012/05/act-of-religion.html
August 29 at 11:25am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman And I am very willing to be corrected about that.
August 29 at 11:25am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Paul *permits* periodic continence for the purpose of prayer if both spouses consent. That's not exactly the same as counseling a certain degree of abstinence in marriage.
August 29 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick (If I could have "liked" comments through TAC I would have not been told I don't participate enough )
August 29 at 11:26am · Like · 5
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John Boyer HA!
See Translation
August 29 at 11:26am · Like
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Edward Langley (BTW, that was Aquinas on a relevant passage)
August 29 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Edward, what is that citation exactly?
August 29 at 11:27am · Like
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Nina Rachele Haha, Lauren, I think all the quiet people in section should have been given "yea" and "nay" signs to hold up during appropriate times.
August 29 at 11:27am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley It's in the linked blogpost
August 29 at 11:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and to be clear again: TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.
August 29 at 11:27am · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas's commentary on 1 Corinthians (section 329)
August 29 at 11:28am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I've got three minutes until my self-appointed cut off time. Come at me, y'all.
August 29 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu ^SINNER
August 29 at 11:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One more time for good measure: TO SAY THAT THE MARITAL ACT IS INHERENTLY DISORDERED IN ANY WAY IS AN ABOMINATION.
August 29 at 11:29am · Like
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Tim Cantu sorry that was rude, I don't know you.
August 29 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu but I also think I'm probably right.
August 29 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^My position and the Church's
August 29 at 11:29am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, that's all right. That's one safe thing to call everyone
August 29 at 11:29am · Like · 5
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John Boyer It could be a new greeting: What up, my sinner?
August 29 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu It's the extent of my expertise in moral theology.
August 29 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Peace out. I'll be back to read Pater Edmund's probably horrible post later.
August 29 at 11:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is what I suspect the Fathera and St. Thomas would say regarding sexual intercourse intentionally carried out during times of infertility: every virtuous act is meritorious, if it is performed with charity. But sometimes it is accompanied with venial sin, namely, when one is excited to the matrimonial act by concupiscence, which nevertheless stays within the limits of the marriage, namely, that he is content with his wife only.
August 29 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Namely, that it is excited by concupiscence.
August 29 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Only if that concupiscence is an antecedent passion.
August 29 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, what are the stats?
August 29 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes.^
August 29 at 11:31am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer Yeah, Ed.
August 29 at 11:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have to be moving up in the ranks, now.
August 29 at 11:33am · Like
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John Boyer You have been posting and double posting at a heroic pace
August 29 at 11:33am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I still haven't figured out how it could be sinful to abstain from something I'm not required to do.
I am not required to say the rosary (though it is a good thing to do so) but there is no sin in not saying it, right?
August 29 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Lauren, I have a feeling several people on here never heard that they don't participate enough.......
August 29 at 11:37am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger causing troubles, mb. Always. And i just had it all figured out.
August 29 at 11:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia No, I really want to know. How is it sinful to avoid what is not necessary to do
August 29 at 11:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have three more practical points about this:
1. Would someone really trust himself to not be motivated by lust, or selfishness when one does pursue the marital act intentionally during times of infertility.
2. Chances are, this is not something most of us should worry too much about at this time. Most of us probably have to stop cursing our brother in our hearts, or pride, or something far more serious.
3. Do not be surprised by the fact that you likely commit hundreds of venial sins a day, if not more. Perfection can take a long time, and one cannot force it. We must "let ourselves be seduced" by the Lord.
August 29 at 11:39am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Unless there's some magisterial document telling me I have to have sex
August 29 at 11:39am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Daniel, I never pursue the marital act unintentionally....
August 29 at 11:40am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman The Fathers might argue that you have an obligation to humanity and the Church to procreate and educate children.
August 29 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger but dont stop saying the rosary. These days it is the mandatory weapon. THE weapon.
August 29 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and all of my kids were intended unintentionally
August 29 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu lolol Scott Weinberg is a PEN NAME?!?!?!
August 29 at 11:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman My first was born 40 weeks to the day after we got married.
August 29 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My second was born 11 months (10 months and 28 days) later.
August 29 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Is this some sort of Catholic oneupmanship?
August 29 at 11:42am · Unlike · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick My first took her time and is continuing to take her time...
August 29 at 11:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will let you guess about inentionallity Michael.
August 29 at 11:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Tim. Always.
August 29 at 11:42am · Like
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Nina Rachele I've long suspected this thread was some kind of subtle virility contest.
August 29 at 11:42am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman ^But not really.^
August 29 at 11:42am · Like
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Adrw Lng My impression as a poet is that TAC has a disordered curriculum where sacred theology is objectified by the Church Father's metaphysics of marriage.
August 29 at 11:43am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman It was meant to be a comment upon practical inentionallity
August 29 at 11:43am · Like
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Tim Cantu also, my wife's pregnancies have run about 42 weeks soooooo SINNER
August 29 at 11:43am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It would seem then that "as a poet" = asinine?
August 29 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu sorry, again, rude, I don't know what's wrong with me
August 29 at 11:43am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman
August 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It's the thread, Tim.
August 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng "inentionallity?" Krasevac would kill you Lendman
August 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is not your fault.
August 29 at 11:44am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Shhhh! Don't tell me that Tim!
August 29 at 11:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry.
August 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia even using NFP isn't necessarily "closed" to the creation of life.
August 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman to Krasevac, that is.
August 29 at 11:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am a barbarian.
August 29 at 11:45am · Like
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Adrw Lng ^ don't worry he'd employ double effect reasoning (DER)
August 29 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But I am a barbarian who is totally going to better my stats on the thread.
August 29 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you'll have to work hard to catch number two....
August 29 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 8 under 14 (but dont tell my wife its just a virility contest. That could spell a long spell of unintended non intercourse )
August 29 at 11:45am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I know, I know.
August 29 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I love how this thread has become dominated by the class of '06
August 29 at 11:46am · Like · 3
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John Boyer A practical problem with the way NFP is taught, or at least perceived. It's not "contraception for catholics." That would mean, ultimately, that the Church approves of contraception in the main, but disapproves of certain means of contracepting.
August 29 at 11:46am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I am content with third place.
August 29 at 11:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't have to be perfect, now.
August 29 at 11:46am · Like
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Michael Beitia after 8 years, you apparently know everything
August 29 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is, in fact, one of the practical points I made above about marriage.
August 29 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia after 8 years you know everything?
August 29 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Reading the comments in strict succession is a great way to enter into the madness
August 29 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia because I've been married longer than that, and I just don't know.....
August 29 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman When NFP first became "a thing" the ordinary magesterium was very clear that it was tolerated, not encouraged
August 29 at 11:48am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Also, I remember when I was learning about it from Scott and Kimberly Hahn (via cds) they mentioned how it should be carried out with a kind of sadness, that circumstances demand this.
August 29 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That seems to be in keeping with the tradition.
August 29 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And a special thank you to Lauren Ogrodnick for the reminded about the Church's stance on NFP when it first became big.
August 29 at 11:50am · Like
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Tim Cantu what's the it that we're carrying out with sadness? I may be doing it wrong.
August 29 at 11:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That one must avoid pregnancy but cannot do so with unmitigated continence is a sad thing. That there are circumstances so serious and that one cannot simply have children without care is a sad thing.
August 29 at 11:51am · Like · 3
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John Boyer The fact you can't afford kids to such an extent that you have to give up bonking for a while
August 29 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am not promoting women being "Baby factories" either.
August 29 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia nice
August 29 at 11:52am · Like
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Tim Cantu Okay mister two kids in eleven months
August 29 at 11:53am · Like · 3
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John Boyer I AM promoting Baby Factories which are factories staffed by babies. That would be ADORABLE.
August 29 at 11:53am · Like · 6
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Tim Cantu (NB: if it's not ENTIRELY OBVIOUS, none of my contributions are serious much at all.)
August 29 at 11:53am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia John - move to Indonesia
August 29 at 11:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The point is, is that if one cannot have children for any reason, it is certainly better to abstain simply, until circumstances are such that they are favorable to children.
August 29 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^good luck with that^
August 29 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu What do the babies make in the factories?
August 29 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick What do babies usually make?
August 29 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Fertilizer factory?
August 29 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Knock off Gucci diaper bags
August 29 at 11:55am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman The question is whether it is venially sinful to do otherwise. I think the fathers would say yes, do to the very high probability (necessity?) that it be done with concupiscence.
August 29 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu did you just advocate turning babies into fertilizer THIS IS A NEW LOW
August 29 at 11:55am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia soylent green?
August 29 at 11:56am · Like
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Adrw Lng Wave of babies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF9GJFUnd4I
Teen Girl Squad # 6
Teen Girl Squad
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 11:56am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Well we would only eat the irish babies.
August 29 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, are we finished with NFP, now?
August 29 at 11:58am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Or is there more to say, really?
August 29 at 11:58am · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu hahaha "is there more to say"
August 29 at 11:58am · Like
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John Ruplinger anthropophagi. New low
August 29 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng My video impersonation of the NFP convo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmd1qMN5Yo0
The Shooting AKA Dear Sister
Emotions run high in this loose homage to the final moment of the season 2 finale of The O.C. Featuring Shia LaBeouf.
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 11:59am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Because I would really like to talk about how Aristotle and St. Thomas' conception of the soul is essentially the same, contra Ratzinger.
August 29 at 11:59am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman This is Shia LeBeouf's greatest performance.
August 29 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Seriously.
August 29 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng SERIOUSLY
August 29 at 12:00pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Hey this is nothing! I've been stuck having this conversation on Facebook with all women most who were pregnant or post partum!
August 29 at 12:00pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman If you don't believe me, watch it.
August 29 at 12:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley The Graph . . .
August 29 at 12:01pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Still exponential!
August 29 at 12:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wow!
August 29 at 12:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a declaration reaffirming the ancient faith of the Church. This document had this in particular to say regarding the soul,
The Church affirms that a spiritual element survives and subsists after death, an element endowed with consciousness and will, so that the "human self" subsists. To designate this element, the Church uses the word "soul", the accepted term in the usage of Scripture and Tradition. Although not unaware that this term has various meanings in the Bible, the Church thinks that there is no valid reason for rejecting it; moreover, she considers that the use of some word as a vehicle is absolutely indispensable in order to support the faith of Christians.1
Then Josef Ratzinger, wrote a commentary on this document and brought it up in relation to the formula adopted by the council of Vienna that the soul is the form of the body. Ratzinger duly noted the Thomistic connection of this formula and made this comment about St. Thomas Aquinas' appropriation of the Aristotelian conception of soul: “Thomas took this formulation [the soul is the form of the body] and gave it, in terms of his own thought, a fundamentally new significance.
August 29 at 12:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman careful scrutiny of both Aristotle's and Thomas' treatment of the soul, however, makes it difficult to see how Thomas gives the formulation, “the soul is the form of the body” a “fundamentally new significance.” To hold such a position seems to ignore the fact that Thomas treats of the soul in several places, and in different ways. This position seems to stem from the belief that Aristotelian thought regarding the soul as the form of the body is necessarily dualistic. Neither of these positions, finally, seem tenable.
August 29 at 12:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I argue that it is in light of revelation, that Thomas is able to approach the soul in a fundamentally new way, but his account of the soul, essentially, is the same.
August 29 at 12:05pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick That's right Daniel, use the Thread to advance your own agenda
August 29 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No one can use the thread. Some merely manifest the Threadness more concretely and fully.
August 29 at 12:06pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley .
788 Michael Beitia
720 Peregrine Bonaventure
638 Daniel Lendman
517 John Ruplinger
473 Edward Langley
360 JA Escalante
313 Isak Benedict
291 Matthew J. Peterson
219 Catherine Ryland
174 Samantha Cohoe
August 29 at 12:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Ask Isak Benedict.
August 29 at 12:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Looks like we have a new reigning windbag
August 29 at 12:07pm · Like · 7
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Tim Cantu PB is first in our hearts, though.
August 29 at 12:07pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I am happy with a solid third place.
August 29 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
167 Joel HF
166 Pater Edmund
159 John Boyer
140 Joshua Kenz
131 Sam Rocha
129 Daniel P. O'Connell
123 Lauren Ogrodnick
118 Tim Cantu
116 Jody Haaf Garneau
101 Nina Rachele
August 29 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Someone has to keep up with you kids
August 29 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Keep up the good work, Michael!
August 29 at 12:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
86 Marina Shea
86 Frank Morris
68 Philip D. Knuffke
56 Megan Baird
55 Megan Caughron
54 Max Summe
46 Sean Robertson
40 Jason Van Boom
39 Aaron Dunkel
38 Bekah Sims Andrews
August 29 at 12:09pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Whoa Tim! For not being involved for the first few days you've really made up for it!
August 29 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V35jvY0u7I
The Lonely Island - DIAPER MONEY
Wack Sunday? For YouTube's Comedy Week we give you DIAPER MONEY iTUNES: http://bit.ly/13w2sxX AMAZON:
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 12:09pm · Like
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John Boyer Language Warning^
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Tim Cantu 1 Marie Cantu
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This thread needs more
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, I think that the definition of man as "rational animal" in Aristotelian thought is fundamentally different than "Rational substance conjoined to matter" in St. Thomas
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia don't you?
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
36 Tom Sundaram
33 Katie Duda
33 Adrw Lng
26 John Kunz
20 Clayton Brockman
19 John Hall
19 Joe Zepeda
17 Emily Norppa
16 Liam Collins
16 Erik Bootsma
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Aaron Dunkel
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
15 John Herreid
15 Claire Keeler
14 Lucy Zepeda
14 Aaron Gigliotti
13 Kevin Gallagher
12 Dominique Martin
11 Jeff Neill
August 29 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Although does Aristotle ever say "rational animal"?
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley In St. Thomas, the soul isn't a "rational substance"
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That's Plescartes
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Plato - Descartes)
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like
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John Boyer Thinking thing.
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley John Boyer, in the politics he says "zoon echon logon"
August 29 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley which is usually translated as "animal having speech"
August 29 at 12:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and my Greek is worse than my German, so I probably butchered the transliteration)
August 29 at 12:12pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman In the Summa, Aquinas approaches humans in the Divine Mode. It is the same account essentially, but it is more perfectly known through Sacred Theology.
August 29 at 12:13pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Since Sacred Theology sees all things proceeding from God.
August 29 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Pater Edmund now has the title of "longest comment": 1218 words, comment 6669.
August 29 at 12:14pm · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu ^SO disappointingly close
August 29 at 12:14pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer That sounds like a nominal definition, which implies rational animal.
August 29 at 12:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But "logos" also means "reason" in Greek, ritght?
August 29 at 12:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley comment 6666:
Bekah Sims Andrews
Pater Edmund, I have no idea where that comment of yours was made and am too lazy to look for it in the hundreds of comments above.....feel free to repeat it for me. (pretty please)
August 29 at 12:16pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The thread was 242002 words long.
August 29 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer It can
August 29 at 12:18pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Although it looks like someone might be blocking me . . .
August 29 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick How do your wives feel about this thread?
August 29 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia of course they are different modes, but Thomas also says that part of man's essence is his act of existence (unlike God where they are the same) does this change, fundamentally, an account of the soul existing after death?
August 29 at 12:18pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Understandable Ed
August 29 at 12:19pm · Like
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John Boyer But normally this is because it means it in the sense of "account"
August 29 at 12:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley (or at least not letting me see their comments somehow)
August 29 at 12:19pm · Like
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John Boyer Rather than the power.
August 29 at 12:19pm · Like
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John Boyer Wait, what Michael?
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think my wife likes this thread
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer Existence is NOT part of man's essence
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is according to Being and Essence
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like
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John Boyer Hard to think of why...what time did you get to bed last night?
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia same for angels
August 29 at 12:20pm · Like
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John Boyer De Ente 4 says existence is not part of essence. That's why there is a distinction.
August 29 at 12:21pm · Like
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John Boyer Otherwise all men, based on what they are, would be always existing.
August 29 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia in God, His essence is His act of existing
August 29 at 12:21pm · Like
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John Boyer Yes
August 29 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hence the immortality of the soul?
August 29 at 12:21pm · Like
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John Boyer No, because of immateriality.
August 29 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia St Thomas also claims that 'part" of man's essence is his act of existing, not fully as in God
August 29 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Boyer There is still a separate act of existence joined to the essence.
August 29 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Boyer Same for angels.
August 29 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Boyer Direct quote please.
August 29 at 12:22pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia yes, hence the "part"
August 29 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Boyer And you would need to determine the way that essentia is being used.
August 29 at 12:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm at "work" c'mon. You'll have to wait until 4 CST and then we'll be waaaay past this
August 29 at 12:31pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer To say existence is part of essence sounds vaugely Suarezian to me, for then form would give esse. Which, at least, is not the Thomistic doctrine. It may be the Aristotelian position, depending on who you ask.
August 29 at 12:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Boyer I usually translate them myself, but I have had many an objector suspect my translations, so I tell them here is the Latin, it says X see for yourself and make them ask....
Daniel Lendman, I take it you have read and understood St. Alphonse Liguori on marital relations and found his argument insufficient? Why so? Why is desire for your spouse, e.g., contrary to a virtual intention of procreation/unity? I can see objections if NFP are used ... in fact that is the strongest argument I know against NFP, that it seems you couldn't claim such a virtual intention and would fall into your position, which, in fairness, is Augustinian.
But still it should be addressed. When I can (note many hours from now) I will post the argument from Liguori as to why most marital relations are not sinful....
August 29 at 12:26pm · Unlike · 5
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Joshua Kenz Was PB banned or did he block me?
August 29 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Barry Miller, for example, holds that Aristotle doesn't acknowledge the real distinction. I am not sure what I think about Aristotle's view on this (if he explicitly has one). Metaphysics 4 implies he doesn't, where he states to say "Socrates is" is the same as "Socrates is a man."
August 29 at 12:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer Just joshing ya, Joshua
August 29 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Boyer I think Bañez has the best take on essence-existence. Essence, in particular form, is like a material cause which receives esse.
August 29 at 12:28pm · Like
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John Boyer "a virtual intention" THAT was the term I was searching for above.
August 29 at 12:28pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wow, I am fairly certain that Peregrine Scott actually blocked me!
Do I get a prize or something?
August 29 at 12:29pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer A more pleasant facebook experience isn't prize enough?
August 29 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, I think he just disappeared (unless he blocked me too)
August 29 at 12:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/peregrine.bonaventure
August 29 at 12:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Does that work for you?
August 29 at 12:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or perhaps Facebook is responding to Isak Benedict
August 29 at 12:30pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley reporting him.
August 29 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley gotta get my post count up . ..
August 29 at 12:31pm · Like
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John Boyer Troll pelt and whatnot
August 29 at 12:31pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Nope. But I still feel vindicated...I did report every single picture of his
August 29 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joshua, neither. I think he's taking a break to magisteriize!
August 29 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "utrum essentia lineae infinitae est 'esse' suum? Respondeo 'esse' essentiam lineae quae finem habere non potest esse quia . . . . " (Quaestio innumerabilis) No. I cant pretend to argue that.
August 29 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia But John, I was trying to change the subject from NFP, though I'm not wedded to any particular notion of being and essence, I wrote one of the appendices to my thesis on being and essence. Now it is a little less distinct. I'd have to look it up
August 29 at 12:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley The same thesis that Descartes wrote?
August 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Tim Cantu wait, has the mob/witch hunt been sated?!
August 29 at 12:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley I find it funny that Daniel has been repeatedly called a puritan. My in person conversations with him generally involve me implying that he's a laxist
August 29 at 12:49pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger no, Tim. It only answers the real unstated question of the thread: "how many posts does it take TACers to detect and kill a troll."
August 29 at 12:49pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer Too many.
August 29 at 12:52pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger puritan name calling was unfair. He EMPHATICALLY denied it many times and thereby padded his post numbers and passed me in the rankings as well.
August 29 at 12:53pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I do believe I have been excommunicated by Pope Pinhead Peregrine!! Is anyone able still to see his comments? If he blocked me personally, that hurts my feelings. I wanted to have his babies.
August 29 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Isak, I think all of the reporting finally took.
August 29 at 12:55pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer METAPHYSICS ÜBER ALLES.
August 29 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Sorry, an existential Thomist just took over me.
August 29 at 12:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger he is dead and gone, Isak, he is dead and gone. At his head a grass green turf, at his heels a stone.
August 29 at 1:04pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
August 29 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Here is a nit to pick with TAC. See if this gets the comment mill going: TAC should treat logic like Latin and teach it using a formal text, rather than relying on students gleaning bits and pieces from the Organon.
August 29 at 1:01pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yeah, they probably locked his account while it gets "sorted out"
August 29 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It appears his account is gone or down.
August 29 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't know how I feel about it.
August 29 at 1:03pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer If you don't know logic clearly, you suffer.
August 29 at 1:04pm · Like
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John Boyer Also, put Wittgenstein into Senior Seminar.
August 29 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Lord knows there's plenty of room because no church documents ever get read during senior seminar.
August 29 at 1:05pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson John Boyer: that would assume we teach the liberal arts as arts. Which we kinda do but not really.
Logic, Rhetoric, and Grammar would need way more drilling and workbooks if we really taught them as liberal arts.
It's a judgment call, as they are also trying to do the Great Books thing and the Aristotle-Thomas thing, but you are right: they aren't taught as arts per se.
August 29 at 1:05pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wow. You killed him!
August 29 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Yeah. I mean, that would be the reason. Great books are great and all, but the liberal arts, as tools for approaching the great books, are needed. I understand it's hard to strike a balance.
August 29 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger an epitaph an epitaph . . . .
August 29 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Boyer Has senior math been codified yet? They could do symbolic logic as part of senior math, since it's so math-y.
August 29 at 1:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson He could rise from the grave at any time. Are all his comments gone?
That will make this thread hilariously convoluted - well, more than it currently is, I guess.
August 29 at 1:08pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer No, comments have to be individually deleted, I think.
August 29 at 1:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ideally a strong base for the trivium is set in High school, of course, but...
August 29 at 1:08pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer And that's a big but. A but worthy of Sir Mix-A-Lot.
August 29 at 1:09pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i would spend the time on more latin instead a la WCC. (Grammar first.)
August 29 at 1:09pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Now we'll all look like King Lear in the storm.
August 29 at 1:09pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I really think he organon should stay. Even if it doesn't teach logic particularly well: which, honestly, dropped a lot on the tutor and the students: most of the prior analytics and on interpretation is pretty straightforward
August 29 at 1:09pm · Like · 5
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John Boyer I agree that the organon should stay. It is important. And many issues come up which must be dealt with in a more discursive manner (categories, truth or lack thereof of future conditionals)
August 29 at 1:10pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, st. Thomas refers to the organon way too much to go into him without having read a good chunk of it.
August 29 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer Agreed.
August 29 at 1:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Agreed about the organon!
August 29 at 1:12pm · Like
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Tim Cantu http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/.../solemn-high-requiem.../
Let's discuss.
Solemn High Requiem Mass Held For The Spirit Of Vatican II | Eye of the Tiber
CINCINNATI, OH- A Solemn High Requiem Mass was...
EYEOFTHETIBER.COM
August 29 at 1:12pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson It's hard because they can't be all things. Ideally, I think, one would train in the arts as arts, which would incorporate parts of the organon or some version of it and be more textbook/workbooky - and then you'd study the organon philosophically separately.
August 29 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer Summer session for incoming freshmen?
August 29 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [2 trolls in one day!!^^^ ]
August 29 at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer An intensive logic course?
August 29 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Matrix style downloading of logic...and kung fu?
August 29 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They should just make freshman listen to Duane Berquist lecture on logic after freshman year
August 29 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia he did this last time as "Scott Weinburg" deletes the account and then the specter of Bonbon returns ever again. Est nihil novum sub soli
August 29 at 1:21pm · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante let's talk about kung fu. For Aristotle, liberal arts without gymnastic would be sort of nuts
August 29 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia kung fu means the same as μαθηματικά, right?
August 29 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It would be nice if they included Aristotle on generation of animals. It would make people think twice before facilely dismissing his embryology.
August 29 at 1:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia JAson, isn't heavy drinking gymnastic?
August 29 at 1:23pm · Like
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John Boyer Wait, JA, are you saying we have to ride horses now, like a certain *other* college?
August 29 at 1:23pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict BLOW WINDS, CRACK YOUR CHEEKS! RAAAAAGE, BLOOOOW
August 29 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And John, much earlier in TNET I said that I left TAC after soph year because I wanted scholastic logic (and natural phil) taught me in lecture form, rather than debating the Organon with a bunch of 17 yr old homeschoolers, so I agree with you there completely
August 29 at 1:24pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Which beer to buy..
August 29 at 1:24pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it would make a world of difference if TAC just straight up taught John of St Thomas
August 29 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Hey, some of us weren't homeschooled. SOME of us knew math.
August 29 at 1:24pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer In latin.
August 29 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and no, no horses, but certainly kung fu
August 29 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia doesn't it mean the same as mathematics?
August 29 at 1:25pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante i believe the Greeks called their kung fu 'Pyrrhic Dance'
August 29 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no I mean a direct transliteration in to English
August 29 at 1:26pm · Like
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John Boyer Or as Michael Beitia calls it "Baccanlian rites at the Rocks"
August 29 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Ha!
See Translation
August 29 at 1:27pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Quaeritur: if TNET were added to the curriculum, where would it belong?
August 29 at 1:27pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I do believe that although I have taken the troll hide and made some very comfortable long johns with it, Pope Peregrine may end up making use of this magical serum or cream and return to troll us all again!
August 29 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia They were called "the F*&cking drunk rocks" in my day
August 29 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Seminar. It would be the first reading of the semester. Students would either read it all summer or be cramming it the night before term started.
August 29 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer I preferred The Tree, until that was banned.
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like
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John Boyer And the pit was verboten by the time I started.
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tim - TNET is never added to a curriculum and belongs nowhere. The real question is where does the curriculum belong in TNET? #gnosis
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia nothing compares to going down into the pit
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like
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Joel HF Added to the curriculum? It is self evident that TNET ought to * replace * the entire clap-trap they currently call a "curriculum."
August 29 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and Beitia no, kung fu translates roughly as "techne"
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the creek glistened with the glass of broken bottles, like a stained glass temple to excess
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante roughly
August 29 at 1:28pm · Like
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Joel HF The current drinking spot (I think they call it "downtown") is, I believe, roughly where the old pit was located.
August 29 at 1:29pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia what does mathematics translate into
August 29 at 1:29pm · Like
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Christopher Luke Trevilla This thread approaches 'Abomination in the sight of' status. Kinda like it scream 'We are legion and we will suck you in!'
*quickly runs away*
*fails*
*reads comments*
*reaches his comment*
*dies*
August 29 at 1:29pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF But the geography of the place changed a bit after the floods of 05.
August 29 at 1:32pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia same happened in 98-99 (the great el nino)
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like
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Tim Cantu ^last floods I heard of were fall '05?
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the one lane road
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The Pit was scriptural.
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Christopher Luke Trevilla Damn notifications.
I am now doomed.
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson "I am counted among those who go down to the pit"
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia remember trying to hit "down below" with empties?
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or was that just me
August 29 at 1:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Editted b/c I only got there in 01 (?) and it was Junior year that the great flood came. So it would be in January of 05.
August 29 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia μαθησες means learning......
August 29 at 1:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Anyone else go to the cliffs before they got banned too?
August 29 at 1:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Weren't you a prefect, Peterson? The job description must have been different, back in the day...
August 29 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Peterson was a sinner
August 29 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I started out as informal prefect of the Pit, junior year. RISE. I rose from the pit. And then they crowned me a prefect of the people senior year.
August 29 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and thus he got tapped by the Gestapo to work for the Man
August 29 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In those two years the pit was an excellent place.
August 29 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante they made him an "offer he couldnt refuse"
August 29 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante he was "rehabilitated"....this is the origin of his TAC Stockholm Syndrome
August 29 at 1:42pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia good, we gone from drinking spots to how Peterson sold out on us. My favorite drinking spot was room 316.
August 29 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I took like 2 full garbage bags of empty whiskey bottles out after graduation. Got some funny looks from some lovely tutors.
August 29 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "but save a prayer for Lefty too, he only did what he had to do, and now he's growing old"
August 29 at 1:43pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Nonsense. They wanted to convert me. Little did they know I was going to do that anyway. So I took their bait and tried to protect the people the best I could.
And sometimes that meant that those who didn't check in their booze, and yet left it in my refrigerator, would "pay the tax" as I called it when I drank free beer at the pit.
August 29 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Last I heard downtown, which is now a parking lot, has been frequented by the police in the last couple years
August 29 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Bet that puts a damper on things
August 29 at 1:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I've never been back. . .
August 29 at 1:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Admit it Peterson, you're a sellout
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Back then they always had one "token" prefect who was a "project."
August 29 at 1:45pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia and Lincoln was a tyrant
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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John Boyer Where was the pit anyway? I was never sure.
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Joel HF "He plucked me out of a pit of confusion, even out of the quicksand; he placed my feet on a rock and established my steps" Psalm 40:2
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF The Mountain Goats Psalm 40:2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcmDXkwwR4c
The Mountain Goats - Psalms 40:2
"Psalms 40:2," by the Mountain Goats Off the 2009 album, "The Life of the World to Come." Let me know if you have...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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Claire Keeler (reverential silence)
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the pit was out the front gate, turn right, and go into the dirt parking lot and back a little way.
August 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we had pallets for seats until we burned them all
August 29 at 1:46pm · Like
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John Boyer Ah.
August 29 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we used to drink under the bridge too, when it was raining
August 29 at 1:47pm · Like
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Claire Keeler I mighta spent more time there than in class. I'm not sure. I didn't keep exact records.
August 29 at 1:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I felt I contributed mightily to the common good in that role. I was a man without a country anyhow, as my original class was gone and graduated. And the place was so small and silly my reputation was already set in stone, and I felt imprisoned in it. Sad time, senior year. But being a prefect had nothing to do with it.
August 29 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I enjoyed locking campus up.
August 29 at 1:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia did your sadness contribute to your Lincoln adulation?
August 29 at 1:48pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler You were a prefect? Eww, and, whoa!
August 29 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF It was shut down a few weeks into my freshman year. As I recall a certain smelly Senior, despite warnings, kept throwning and breaking beer bottles and the ranchers got huffy and then the pronouncement came: drinking on rancher property was an expellable offense.
August 29 at 1:48pm · Like
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Joel HF Some took to federal property.
August 29 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Some to their rooms.
August 29 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But there was great mourning on that day.
August 29 at 1:49pm · Edited · Like
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Claire Keeler that was a keraaazy day
August 29 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I missed smoker's alley. The patio was too expansive, no Nietzschean horizons....
August 29 at 1:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The best part of locking up was ignoring all the doors that were perpetually broken, as well as reaching around Dr. Dillon's office window to "lock" his door, which was what I was told to do as we didn't have a key for it or some such.
"Diss work study - like communism."
August 29 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler rich marotti came out onto the smokers' patio after the announcement, rent his garments (buttons actually flew off his shirt) and rubbed dirt onto his forehead.
August 29 at 1:49pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I divorced my roommate at the end of freshman year when he told me that the Man had asked him to be a prefect
August 29 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler "The best part of locking up is folgers in your cup"
August 29 at 1:50pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson hahah
August 29 at 1:50pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante let's meditate on this: "I enjoyed locking up campus"
August 29 at 1:50pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante LOCKING UP
August 29 at 1:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the best part of "locking up" the library was having leeway as to 11 p.m.
August 29 at 1:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You were scared of THE LAW, JA Escalante. Why? Why did you fear the strictures most necessary and wholesome for the common good?
August 29 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Calvinists....
August 29 at 1:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is roughly where downtown was.
August 29 at 1:51pm · Like
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Claire Keeler when it comes through the imperfect filter of corruptible man
August 29 at 1:51pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante You can't trust a police which thinks the common good is divisible
August 29 at 1:56pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Like I say, it was fun because it was a pointless exercise.
August 29 at 1:51pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante remember those hours tickets? "you have taken from the common good"
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson hahaha
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante a philosophic absurdity
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah, I remember them. Which is why I am very leery of all the "common good" spouting graduates...
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I had a hole in the elbow of a long-sleeved undershirt...... how did that take away from the common good?
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante a police which thinks you can take a chunk out of the common good is basically the KGB
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Personally I liked the rocks: especially because the long walk back was great for scaring tipsy people with tales of mountain lions
August 29 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and frankly Peterson the Law feared me
August 29 at 1:53pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Those same people want a confessional state that would serve as one, gigantic TAC.
August 29 at 1:53pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Not mentioning any names, Lauren Ogrodnick
August 29 at 1:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That's probably true.
August 29 at 1:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia alien retreaval team, as long as were waxing nostalgic
August 29 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Anyways, TNET has failed me, I asked for beer recommendations and now it's too late.
August 29 at 2:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF The walk back from the rocks was great b/c every once in a while, some drunk would ride the oil rigs
August 29 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Matt Wall Amazing choices for their thesis titles....
August 29 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel Morehouse How is it possible this thread has 7436 comments?
August 29 at 2:04pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell These fellows did yeoman's work last night. When I went to bed this thread hadn't even reached 6,666.
August 29 at 2:06pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Never too late for beer, Edward. I am a big fan of Bear Republic's Racer 5 myself.
August 29 at 2:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Too late as in I'm no longer at the store.
August 29 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh well. There's always next time. What did you get?
August 29 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Edward, you are in DC, yes?
August 29 at 2:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley I got a flying dog "snake dog ipa"
August 29 at 2:12pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley yeah
August 29 at 2:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley a local brew from Frederick, MD
August 29 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm not sure it's there, but it should be: Bell's Two-Hearted Ale.
August 29 at 2:13pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Same brewery as the Raging Bitch. Does it have Ralph Steadman illustrations on the box?
August 29 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia All the flying dog beers do
August 29 at 2:15pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Daniel O'Connell nailed it with the Two Hearted recommendation.
August 29 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell It doesn't hurt that it's named after one of Hemmingway's Nick Adams stories.
August 29 at 2:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I try to only drink local, but I have sampled the flying dog, bells, and, well, most others
August 29 at 2:18pm · Like
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Katie Duda Bells is pretty local...
August 29 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
August 29 at 2:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I only go micro-local
August 29 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 5 mile radius
August 29 at 2:21pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Hipster alert! Hipster alert!
August 29 at 2:21pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley meaning homebrew?
August 29 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'M JOKING!!
August 29 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's generally my rule for coffee
August 29 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my new favorite is "Anger" by Greenbush brewing in Wisconsin
August 29 at 2:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656290994413287&set=pb.100000971786144.-2207520000.1409336575.&type=3&theater
Michael Beitia
Facebook life events cannot be false
August 29 at 2:23pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I was never tipsy on the way back but some jerks liked to freak me out about wild animals
August 29 at 2:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley Are those books approved by the Magisterium?
August 29 at 2:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I saw a mountain lion there once on campus. Freaked me out
August 29 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Which is why I found a house to have a drink at regularly instead of the middle of the forest
August 29 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Umm . . .
August 29 at 2:24pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I saw one on campus two days into Christmas holidays!
August 29 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "the venerable Bede" is one of them, Edward. jerk....
August 29 at 2:24pm · Like
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Joel HF "Venerable Bede" would be a great name for a beer
August 29 at 2:25pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Bell's, Dark Horse, and Jolly Pumpkin are the three most local breweries to me (in Ann Arbor).
August 29 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell What do you think of Lakefront, Michael?
August 29 at 2:26pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Ann Arbor? condolences.
August 29 at 2:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my favorite local is RevBrew, amirite, Katie?
August 29 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like lakefront's extended play IPA
August 29 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Then there's this . . .
August 29 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can I like that twice?
August 29 at 2:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley and this . . .
August 29 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Condolences?
August 29 at 2:28pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Now I want a drink.... But that probably wouldn't help bring on labor...
August 29 at 2:31pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://existentialcomics.com/comic/14
How Philosophy is Made - Existential Comics
EXISTENTIALCOMICS.COM
August 29 at 2:29pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley This is worthwhile, if different
August 29 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It's a good beer to spring on the unsuspecting, like Daniel Lendman
August 29 at 2:32pm · Like
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Joel HF This thread is 'the entertainment' spoken of in Infinite Jest.
August 29 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley This is an interesting post on designing online forums: http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-just-in-time-theory/
The "Just In Time" Theory of User Behavior
18 Jul 2014 The "Just In Time" Theory of User Behavior I've long believed that the design of your software has a...
BLOG.CODINGHORROR.COM
August 29 at 2:36pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley (Just in case we need a diversion)
August 29 at 2:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm in the top ten. What has happened to my life. Someone give me one of those beer.s
August 29 at 2:46pm · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley St. Louis's Sump Coffee roasts some amazing coffee.
August 29 at 2:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Comet Coffee is one of my favorite coffee shops I've run into driving from DC two California twice a year.
August 29 at 2:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley (apropos of very little)
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where's Comet Coffee? Is it in the city? Because I don't go to the County except for Trader Joe's.
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I take it you don't mean Comet Coffee in Ann Arbor?
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, kinda out of the way
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger one dead troll, 7500 posts & you're all slobberin drunk.
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I thought he was still talking about St. Louis
August 29 at 2:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley 5708 Oakland Ave, St Louis, MO
August 29 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's on the side of I-64
August 29 at 2:53pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Hey, I'm just talking about beer. Drinking a nice Guatemalan pour-over from Anthology Coffee in Detroit.
August 29 at 2:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Can you hear gunfire from where you're sitting?
August 29 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Surprising number of great coffee shops in St. Louis, I am discovering. Nah, we're in South City. Nothing much here but a little low level street harrassment
August 29 at 2:55pm · Like
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Megan Baird I found, Lauren Ogrodnick, that drinking beer down by the "Riviera" - spot by the river right before the campus gate - was hazardous for my health. I tripped and fell down those hills so many times. Lost my glasses once.
August 29 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nope.
August 29 at 2:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, haha, Edward, were you talking about STL or Detroit? Kind of works for both
August 29 at 2:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Now that there's some beering, can we get a little controversy back in here? What do you guys think of Communion in the hand versus Communion on the tongue?
August 29 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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John Hall Oh crap
August 29 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Only for consecrated hands . . .
August 29 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Do we have any video yet of the Jesus Montero incident in Boise last night?
August 29 at 2:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well what about extraordinary ministers, Edward?
August 29 at 2:58pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell For Tim: http://nypost.com/.../jesus-montero-fights-mariners.../
Jesus Montero fights own scout over ice cream sandwich diss
Now this is some kind of meltdown. One-time Yankees...
NYPOST.COM
August 29 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I think I've received Communion in my hands ONCE my entire life and I felt so profoundly awkward about it that I never did it again. It just seems more reverent to receive on the tongue, given that my hands are unconsecrated.
August 29 at 2:59pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I did once, when the EM was so short I'd probably have been too tall on my knees.
August 29 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sometimes I think the National Shrine seeks out midgets to be EMs
August 29 at 3:01pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe BORING. I'm out.
August 29 at 3:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well why is receiving in the hands even allowed then?
August 29 at 3:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Will mentioning NFP bring you back, Samantha?
August 29 at 3:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha - I have donned the troll skin. Peregrine has transmogrified me.
August 29 at 3:01pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley That's why Peregrine, a totally different person from Scott, looked so much like him.
August 29 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It will, Edward.
August 29 at 3:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But later.
August 29 at 3:04pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley DC really is a coffee desert, basically two roasters make coffee for all the local coffee shops: Ceremony (Annapolis, MD) and Counter-Culture (Durham, NC). They're both good, but it gets monotonous.
August 29 at 3:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I only go trad. there I said it. It's better than the Novus Ordo anyhoo
August 29 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Although there are a couple newish places that are promising: Viilante Coffee Roasters in Hyattsville, MD and Qualia in DC
August 29 at 3:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, it's called the "Extra-ordinary Form" kinda like "Extra-ordinary Minister"
August 29 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Once upon a time in D.C. there was a great shop that roasted its own beans. I think it was called Sirius Coffee. It was over by the Van Ness-UDC metro stop.
August 29 at 3:05pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele Qualia is ok, but the coffee at Room 11 in Petworth is exceptional. M.E. Swing in Del Ray/North Alexandria is also a good roastery.
August 29 at 3:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Here's a non-boring Communion story for you! When I was in high school, we often had Mass said in the gym, because it was the only place large enough to accommodate the student body.
Anyway, I was a stubborn boy and back then I not only received on the tongue, I also knelt to receive rather than stand. So, this one time we had a bunch of visiting co-celebrant priests and I got in one of their communion lines.
I got up there, knelt and opened my mouth, and the priest looked very confused. Then he tried to shove the Host into my mouth, missed, and dropped it on the dirty gym floor. He then said "Oh, shit!" picked it up off the floor, stuck it in my mouth and continued to distribute communion as if nothing had happened.
I kid you not.
August 29 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Looks closed
August 29 at 3:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley I got to check those out, Dylan
August 29 at 3:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I had an SSPX priest stop in front of me, snort, and keep going at the communion rail, leaving me with my mouth, stupidly, open. Maybe it was the bright green hair.....
August 29 at 3:08pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think the reason it is allowed had to do with the practice becoming common so they gave it a "universal indult" so that the penalty of sin wouldn't be on the people for disobeying the Church.
August 29 at 3:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia needless to say, I've never been back (this was in 99)
August 29 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And Room 11 isn't too far from CUA either.
August 29 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I didn't even know communion on the tongue was a thing until I was 14/15. . . Yeah. . . That tells you something about my parish/diocese
August 29 at 3:12pm · Like
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Joel HF Is the rock and roll evil or the evilest?!?
August 29 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It is worse than evilest
August 29 at 3:13pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF What was the Berquist quote? Something like "Some of you will return to your rooms and play The Rolling Stones or Grateful Dead *on your phonographs*"
August 29 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Joel HF Only the echt-hipsters, Mr. Berquist--no one else has phonographs.
August 29 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Rock and Roll is the Devil's music.
August 29 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird And if you play the lyrics of your favorite songs backwards, they say: "I worship Satan, Prince of Darkness."
August 29 at 3:14pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick ordinary vs extraordinary is more like the low mass vs high mass vs solemn high mass. Yes you only get the solemn high once in a while, but it's ultimately better
August 29 at 3:15pm · Like
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Joel HF Or perhaps "I prefer Plato and Newton to Aristotle and Thomas"
August 29 at 3:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, extraodinary means "this should be unusual and not the norm"
August 29 at 3:15pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I almost bought one of those cabinet phonographs at an estate sale. Seemed excessive, though. I don't own any 78s and I already have a turntable.
August 29 at 3:16pm · Like
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Joel HF The Rock and Roll music will lead one astray from one's true hylomorphic destiny! Beware the Rock and Roll music!
August 29 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Are you wise, Joel?
August 29 at 3:17pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick (Benedict said it should be an option in every parish on Sundays ) but we've discussed this before
August 29 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "Extraodinary" doesn't mean anything...
August 29 at 3:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia but I understand all the old people at the 4 p.m. Saturday "vigil" are attached to their usual form of worship, and unaccustomed to change, so they can continue to go to the NO
August 29 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF "I am the most foolish of men and the wisdom of men is not in me"
August 29 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Why do you ask?
August 29 at 3:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia have you been drinking, Edward?
August 29 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well a lack of wisdom was the consequence of listening to rock music Mr. Berquist predicted . . .
August 29 at 3:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm screwed
August 29 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well I doubt he's working on his thesis . . .
August 29 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes it was. In my case, I doubt it has much to do with my lack of wisdom.
August 29 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I'm not a student, btw, if that was in reference to me.
August 29 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Now we also have concerts. I cannot talk about this at length because that could be another lecture all by itself. I will content myself with an assertion. It is my conviction and that of many of my colleagues (and of all of the founders), that there is no philosophy without music, or there is no philosophy without good music. The soul must be disposed to the love of the true and the reasonable and there is no way to do that without music. So the concerts we offer as part of the series are our testimony, however slight, to our conviction that good music is necessary to the philosophical life. The concert series is a small thing; we do not have a great number of concerts. Some of you, perhaps, will go back to your rooms and listen to the Grateful Dead or the Rolling Stones on your phonographs, and we regret that profoundly. And we think that if you persist in that behavior you will never become wise. We have had only moderate success, so far, in making you aware of that fact. But still we bring it to your attention, and we do this by offering certain concerts in which good music is played, to please you reasonably, to relax the tensions in your souls, and to dispose them rightly to the intellectual efforts that are the principal business of your life."
August 29 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick No it was to Ed
August 29 at 3:24pm · Like
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Megan Baird The Rock and Roll will send you straight to hell.
Or so I've been told.
August 29 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (I hope the jocundity of my question didn't pass unnoticed)
August 29 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF My answer would be that like Pythagorous--the first to go by the name "philosopher"--call me not wise, but rather a lover of wisdom.
August 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick For the record, Isak Benedict, I did try to give somewhat of an answer to your in the hand question
August 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Also, rock and roll.
August 29 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I did to, but their are many strands that must be woven together to make a thread.
August 29 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia is that kind of like the NFP answer (can't.....stop......trolling.......)
August 29 at 3:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley I will answer your question once you explain why you insist on being liturgically retrograde.
August 29 at 3:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley (BTW, the Anglican Use is the way forward)
August 29 at 3:28pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Somewhat... Though probably limited and qualified a lot. But if simply taken as "not ideal" then yes, I think. (In reference to NFP and in the hand thing)
August 29 at 3:29pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia retrograde? If it is a choice between better and worse, I try to use the better
August 29 at 3:28pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia (and I shied away from using superior and inferior, but that's what I meant)
August 29 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I don't understand the question. Communion must be received on the tongue at the TLM. Easy peasy.
August 29 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Sidebar: I'm getting whiplash from the topic changes.
August 29 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF As an ex-Anglican I say: like hell it is.
August 29 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia says the guy who reads Thomas instead of Badiou
August 29 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Have you attended on, Joel HF?
August 29 at 3:29pm · Like
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Joel HF The Anglican's cherry pick a quote to justify communion on the hand.
August 29 at 3:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia how's your Zizek studies, going Ed?
August 29 at 3:30pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick How is the Anglican use the way forward but the 1962 is retrograde? *confuzzled but don't really want an answer because we've had this convo a million times *
August 29 at 3:30pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Yeah, born and raised in a "anglo-catholic" parish, till I converted.
August 29 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How's your bridge, Michael Beitia?
August 29 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia welcome home....
August 29 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't have one
August 29 at 3:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley We should start a kickstarter, "Build a bridge for the troll"
August 29 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
August 29 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, why do you study that old dusty Thomas instead of the shiny new exciting Zizek?
August 29 at 3:33pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF The 1928 Book of Common prayer is amazing prose, some of the best the English language ever saw.
August 29 at 3:33pm · Like
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Joel HF But it isn't the mass of the saints.
August 29 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/.../slavoj-%C5%BEi...
Maverick Philosopher: Slavoj Žižek: Plagiarism Proven
Malcolm Pollack has the details. Hats off to our mutual...
MAVERICKPHILOSOPHER.TYPEPAD.COM
August 29 at 3:34pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley I was unaware that translation and restoration produces an essential change.
August 29 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but he's newer and appeals to the "kids"
he's hip and with it
August 29 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if it is translation, it's a bad one
August 29 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (My main beef is with the insistence on Latin in the liturgy)
August 29 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the propers are not the same as the readings
August 29 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not wedded to Latin, although I find it easier to concentrate, but the changes are NOT just translation
August 29 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Which liturgy are you talking about Michael?
August 29 at 3:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not talking about the NO
August 29 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the Tridentine liturgy. but it could be in English
August 29 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The Anglican Use liturgy at our parish is basically the EF translated into English with a couple Anglicanisms thrown in
August 29 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh... I get it, the Anglo-Catholic rite? never been
August 29 at 3:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it would be better (from the little I know about it) than the NO
August 29 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley From the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar to the Old Offertory on through the Last Gospel.
August 29 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but my older kids say the rosary in Latin, so I may be biased....
August 29 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Latin is better. Ask the exorcists
August 29 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Latin, the language Jesus spoke.
August 29 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I find it easier to concentrate because I think in English, but not liturgically (caveat: I'm a convert and learned the Mass in Latin first)
August 29 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I've never actually gone to an ordinate Anglican service, though I do want to see what it is like. For day in day out worship, however, I don't want anything to do with Thomas Cramner, no matter how good his prose.
August 29 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Also, to be weird and use Vatican II, Latin helps build the "community" of the church since no matter where you go you will understand and it will be the same (yes these are not the best arguments, but those have been used in the past)
August 29 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Are you an Anglican, Edward?
August 29 at 3:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley I get that, Michael, and I actually like Latin liturgies from time to time. But I think there is wisdom in the Byzantine tradition of translating to the vernacular.
August 29 at 3:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ad orientem is important for unity
August 29 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Never said Jesus spoke it, but it is the language of the Roman Rite.
August 29 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley No, Joel HF, my (parent's) family moved to Houston and fell in love with Our Lady of Walsingham.
August 29 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Btw, random but, did you know praying the rosary in Latin has the same relaxation and focus benefits as yoga? They did a study on it...
August 29 at 3:42pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley Joel HF, also there are at least two different ordinariate rites: a more "traditional one" and a newer one. St. Lukes in DC (who will be at Immaculate Conception on 7th (?) St in a couple weeks) uses the more traditional rite.
August 29 at 3:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF I think I met your priest (perhaps?) at your graduation (my brother-in-law was in your class, I suspect). The name Bruce Noble (I think?) ring any bells?
August 29 at 3:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I think he was the Parish Administrator at the time
August 29 at 3:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Our old pastor had retired and we were waiting for a new one to be appointed.
August 29 at 3:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Fr. Noble is quite an amazing person.
August 29 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I graduated in 2012
August 29 at 3:44pm · Like
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Joel HF I'd take a decently translated (and authorized, of course) English version of the TLM over a Latin NO. I'm not sure if I'm typical in this regard, and while I think having a Latin liturgy is important for a whole host of reaons, it isn't the main reason that I prefer the TLM.
August 29 at 3:45pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia ^exactly^ (in Homer Simpson voice)
August 29 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Same here... But Id still prefer it in Latin ideally. . .
August 29 at 3:46pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'm also tied to it because my sons serve it. They made $80 at the last nuptial Mass!
August 29 at 3:47pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia inflation
August 29 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Peterson is going to be throwing around some comments about "crusty trads" and "hehs" fast and furious any minute now.
August 29 at 3:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia just ask him if he has a method to determine how high to raise his hand during the responsorial
August 29 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "Nevertheless, while we are talking about Aristotle, I shouid like to utilize this opportunity to state the conjecture that this wonderful man discovered DNA."
https://www.ini.uzh.ch/.../delbruckAristotleTotleTotle197...
August 29 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia HOME TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 29 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Interesting. I'll have to check out St. Luke's sometime soon.
August 29 at 3:51pm · Like
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Joel HF Particularly if this "more traditional version" is basically an English TLM (w/ the odd anglicanism, of course).
August 29 at 3:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I hate yoga.
August 29 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I believe in Rock & Roll!! \m/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkIysX2Bow
I Still Believe - Frank Turner - Official Video
Official video for "I Still Believe", the new single from Frank Turner, taken from the "Rock & Roll" EP, due for release...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 4:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey let's talk about Medjugorje!!!!
August 29 at 4:05pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I have a policy of not having an opinion on private revelations
August 29 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict That's still an opinion^
August 29 at 4:06pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Listen to Frank Turner and it will all be okay
August 29 at 4:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley If someone claims a prophecy, my attitude is something like "lets wait and see what happens" . . . I've read enough greek classics to know that it's a bad idea to react to prophecies.
August 29 at 4:06pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley http://malcolmpollack.com/.../ethics-engineering-and.../
Ethics, Engineering, And Driverless Cars – waka waka waka
There’s a great deal of buzz lately about self-driving cars. They were the focus of a couple of sessions when I was at Singularity University a couple of years ago, and Google sent one over so we could get a look at it. The consensus at SU was that they confer so many public benefits that their adop…
MALCOLMPOLLACK.COM
August 29 at 4:18pm · Like · Remove Preview
Samantha Cohoe I'd like to say how dumb I think the idea of using nfp with sorrow is.
August 29 at 4:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, unless you actually are sad that circumstances render it imprudent for you to get pregnant.
August 29 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Setting aside health reasons, what would such circumstances look like? My situation where another child would probably mean a 50% increase in rent?
August 29 at 4:25pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick *cough* why not to live in hyattsville *cough*
August 29 at 4:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well, we have the lowest rent I could find
August 29 at 4:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley And a coffee shop about six blocks away
August 29 at 4:28pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yeah....But we can have as many kids under the age of 24 months here which is what we needed for our two year plan
August 29 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It varies, I imagine
August 29 at 4:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, what if you're ecstatic you aren't pregnant? What are you supposed to do, fake it?
August 29 at 4:30pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick How is it dumb to think it's sad to have to use NFP? Sorry.
August 29 at 4:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm starting to worry that this thread will turn into a mommy blog
August 29 at 4:32pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's dumb to say that anyone using NFP ought to be sad about it.
August 29 at 4:33pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh don't worry... I have company 5 minutes away... So I'll be gone shortly
August 29 at 4:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Please. It's been much worse things than that.
August 29 at 4:33pm · Unlike · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't think it means sad as depressed and walking around miserable , but because you have to use it there is something missing, in ideal (or even just slightly better) circumstances you would not need to.
August 29 at 4:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley It seems to me that, objectively, there is a cause for sorrow. But I don't think it's a moral failing to feel happy or relieved that you aren't pregnant.
August 29 at 4:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Kind of like one might regret that a certain friend isn't at a party without letting that prevent you from having a good time at the party.
August 29 at 4:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I do think there is a lot of philosphical/theological work still to be done in order to justify NFP, but that's true in a lot of areas. It's part of being in what Daniel Lendman calls a "new patristic period"
August 29 at 4:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley i.e. a period where a lot of theology is happening without a firm basis in philosophy.
August 29 at 4:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, I wasn't trying to drive you away or anything. I find the arguments about NFP both interesting and relevant.
August 29 at 4:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I'm just doing three things at once. Haven't been driven away.
August 29 at 4:42pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Just trying to avoid misunderstandings
August 29 at 4:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Listen. If you get married when you're 22 as I did and many other TACers do, youve got a solid 20 plus years of fertility ahead of you. Unless you're claiming that everyone should want 10 plus kids, then mandating sorrow at the use of NFP seems a little ridiculous.
August 29 at 4:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm in the same boat, married at 23.
August 29 at 4:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Massive families (and by massive, I mean 8 plus, I guess) are a special calling. Not everybody can do them well, and I don't think those of us who don't want one should feel sorrow about that.
August 29 at 4:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Put it another way-- most young married mothers are going to be immensely relieved if they are able to space out their children using NFP over the course of the many, many years of their fertility. To expect them to feel sorrow over it is just... i dunno... dumb
August 29 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I guess what I'm thinking is that even a couple with a family too big for them to handle would balk at choosing which not to have had, right?
August 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I do see the prudential argument for spacing children
August 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley People do forget that the end isn't just the generation of children but their formation as well.
August 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe YES
August 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's kinda tough to keep balance in today's political climate.
August 29 at 4:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Right, I get it that we live in a culture that is quite the opposite. But let's hit the mean, yes?
August 29 at 4:50pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley There is still a question, though, of the best way to space births. Daniel Lendman's position seemed to be that the optimal method of birth-spacing is continence through both fertile and infertile periods.
August 29 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe BTW your mommy blog comment was totally condescending but I have no right to complain about that at this point so condescend away. ; )
August 29 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger dumb = dont agree / want to understand
August 29 at 4:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley NFP proposes a lesser standard.
August 29 at 4:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, John, when I say "dumb" what I mean is "silly" or something less kind
August 29 at 4:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel just likes to be more Catholic than the pope
August 29 at 4:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I wonder if the relationship between a continent couple and a NFP-using couple is like the relationship between the celibate state of life and the married state: i.e. objectively better but not necessarily better in particular circumstances.
August 29 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My mommy-blog comment mainly had to do with the reflection that discussions of cloth diapers and NFP bring women out of the woodwork like discussions of sports bring men out.
August 29 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I still disagree with every premise of Daniel's argument that continence is better than NFP
August 29 at 4:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I have a habit of being accidentally condescending, I once told my now-wife that she was rather intelligent.
August 29 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Trying to cheer her up about the prospect of doing junior math
August 29 at 4:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's interesting, though, the argument for celibacy > married state, as I understand it, only holds for christians who are called to a religious vocation: according to nature, it seems to me, the married state > celibacy.
Perhaps something similar is true on the other side of the proportion?
August 29 at 5:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley (As a side note, from my mother: Please say a prayer for the healing of Fr. Bruce Noble from cancer. Bl. John Henry Newman, pray for us.)
August 29 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Why only Christians called to a vocation?
August 29 at 5:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley As was mentioned before Fr. Noble is a good friend of my family and a one-time password. He and his twin brother were Anglican priests from Brisbane, Australia who became priests under JPII's Pastoral Provision. His brother, David, died of cancer a while ago, now Fr. Bruce is.
August 29 at 5:04pm · Like
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Joel HF And I'll pray for Fr. Noble.
August 29 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.
August 29 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.
August 29 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have to look it up in Thomas, but the general position I've heard is that they forgo a great natural good because of a greater supernatural good.
August 29 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see how that could translate to the "state of nature".
August 29 at 5:06pm · Like
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Joel HF Right, but wouldn't that be true even of nonreligious (I.e. not in an order ) Christians?
August 29 at 5:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Right, celibacy isn't good in itself, only as part of a calling to a higher good.
August 29 at 5:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, but why would that higher calling include a religious vocation of necessity?
August 29 at 5:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Eh, I don't know, it just has to include Jesus, I would think
August 29 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Agreed there.
August 29 at 5:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley It seems to me that the un-married non-religious state is meant to be a kind of transition period for a Christian and not an end in itself.
August 29 at 5:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Even if, for some reason, that period lasts your whole life)
August 29 at 5:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Life is a transition period for Christians.
August 29 at 5:10pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But even then, it seems to me that the order between the celibate and married life differs for the Christian and the non-Christian
August 29 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And thus, the continent marriage (like that of St. Edward the Confessor) might be a particular calling for Christians and only objectively better in that context.
August 29 at 5:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry?
August 29 at 5:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You mean if God particularly called you to a celibate marriage it would be better to obey than disobey?
August 29 at 5:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, that Christians in a continent marriage are in an objectively better state of life even if most married Christians shouldn't attempt to emulate them.
August 29 at 5:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ech. Continent marriage isn't really marriage. It's just a special sort of friendship.
August 29 at 5:23pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I'm suggesting this, not claiming it to be my own opinion.
August 29 at 5:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So it's weird to hold it up as an ideal of marriage.
August 29 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, do you know my brother? Facebook says you are his friend
August 29 at 5:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is a good point. A sign of that is that, according to canon law, marriage isn't indissoluble until consummated.
August 29 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't know, what's his name?
August 29 at 5:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew McCall
August 29 at 5:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley I only know him because he was a senior my freshman year at TAC.
August 29 at 5:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, at TAC the name seemed familiar for some reason . . .
August 29 at 5:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ah
August 29 at 5:26pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Edward, your comment about the single life being a transitional state is probably true when not applied to persons. What you probably mean is that adolescence is transitional to the state of life a person ought to live.
August 29 at 5:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm kinda undecided whether there is such a thing as a "single vocation" that isn't consecrated to God in some way.
August 29 at 5:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The other side of the NFP thing, Samantha, is the people who use NFP and are unreasonably upset when they are unexpectedly pregnant: to me that indicates a moral defect.
August 29 at 5:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Define "unreasonably upset"
August 29 at 5:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I'm thinking is this: it's ok to be worried about the financial consequences of the new child or the consequence's for the mother's health or other such things, but if you are upset with having a new child as such, there is something wrong.
August 29 at 5:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Just like there would be something wrong if a mother could easily choose which child to keep and which to send off.
August 29 at 5:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley or rather, if a couple . . .
August 29 at 5:56pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Edward, are we suppose to understand the perpetual virgins as religious? I never did, but I could be mistaken.
August 29 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Not really sure . . . at the very least I'd claim that that state is less perfect by nature than the married state.
August 29 at 6:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (with all the relevant qualifications regarding circumstances)
August 29 at 6:00pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel That certainly may be. But your claim was regarding the life of the Christian.
August 29 at 6:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, that seems fine. I think most people who are upset are thinking about the attendant difficulties and not the baby herself.
August 29 at 6:01pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel And once again, it seems like you mean adolescence or the life that imitates adolescence. Singularity would be such by nature only insofar that imitates adolescence.
August 29 at 6:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley I wonder where the line is, though: what counts as an "attendant difficulty"?
August 29 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, what I mean is that the pagan who never marries is in a less perfect state of life than his colleague who marries.
August 29 at 6:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do you have kids?
August 29 at 6:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley One
August 29 at 6:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And the attendant difficulties are not manifest to you?
August 29 at 6:06pm · Unlike · 2
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Aaron Dunkel What is less perfect about it?
August 29 at 6:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just trying to find the limits of what being "unreasonably upset" would mean. I think what I said above is a minimal definition.
August 29 at 6:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, for one thing, his state of life (abstracted from any other contributions he might make to the community) is less productive of the perpetuation of the community he lives in, so he fails that community in some way.
August 29 at 6:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I do realize that in prudential matters like that, there isn't going to be a formula that fits all cases.
August 29 at 6:11pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel Perhaps....but failure is such a strong word for a general obligation. Especially considering that it is not the city that places that obligation.
August 29 at 6:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the obligation derives in part from the common good of the city (state,polis) you're in.
August 29 at 6:28pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Certainly education does....I don't know about reproduction.
August 29 at 6:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 2 cents:
1) These are difficult times to have a large families. Society is in so many ways opposed to such. And I say this watching my many long time friends and their struggles, as well as our own. This is the principle difficulty.
2) Nevertheless, (without judging anyone else) financial reasons are not a real consideration imo. If you were aware of our circumstances, it is patently manifest that God does provide. But I know many others as well.
3) Returning to the first point, that is the real problem. I can hardly begin to show the ways in which this is true, and it is a struggle such that I am at a loss what to do presently (though I used to pride myself on my resourcefulness) which leads again to number 2.
August 29 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley It seems to me that, ultimately the justification for NFP comes from realizing that marriage is not merely for the generation of children but for their formation as well.
If for some reason a couple really don't think they can educate the another child appropriately, then NFP could licitly be employed.
August 29 at 6:37pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Providence does kick in. We have moved continually, but some how all works out well, though certainly never to plan at all. I had it all figured out ten years ago. We are on plan double zed now.
August 29 at 6:39pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger and I'm a teacher by trade. So at least that part of it is very important to me. [Of course, now I would never send my kids to public school ...... on the other hand, one HAD to go for a semester last year. So hey. It was good for a while]
August 29 at 6:42pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Right now it is definitely not what I had hoped for
August 29 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel Edward, care should be taken when making statements about deficiencies in anyone's state of life. Statements of this nature tend to reinforce this observation. The creation of prototypes, while helpful speculatively, may be extremely harmful practically. http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/204154.html
Let's talk about category structure and oppression!
This has been a v long-brewing post; I've been meaning...
SHWETA-NARAYAN.LIVEJOURNAL.COM
August 29 at 6:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I consider myself deficient and take no offense
August 29 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger AND I think being unprejudiced is very overrated.
August 29 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Sex, sex, sexy sex
August 29 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A lot of that Aaron, is not a matter of something inherent in categorizing, but is a misunderstanding of how theoretical categorizations relate to practice.
That is, even though being a priest is a better state of life than being in husband there are almost certainly people who would have been damned if they took orders rather than marry.
August 29 at 6:49pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Gimme an N, gimme an F, gimme a P
August 29 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But hasty categorization is a problem: I have tried to only speak with the force my certainty in these matters allows.
August 29 at 6:50pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I know you well enough to know that to be true. But you seem to deny a stable single life as a state while there are plenty of examples in history and in the saints to say otherwise. Categorizing single life as simply transitional is what I find problematic. That is why I wondered if you meant adolescent life or life in imitation of adolescence.
August 29 at 6:54pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Single people are single because they are being punished by God
August 29 at 6:59pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel lulz
August 29 at 7:00pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel not the prosperity gospel
August 29 at 7:00pm · Like
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John Boyer So still talking about NFP huh
August 29 at 7:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley after a brief interlude
August 29 at 7:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's because God knows their worth, and it is not great. They would be bad for other people so He keeps them single and alone.
August 29 at 7:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Sorry, I'm not as good at this as Pope Peregrine
August 29 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Just say "no" to NFP.
August 29 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia let's all be dominionists and out-breed the world!
August 29 at 7:04pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Yeah. Who's going to volunteer to take Peregrine's place. I'm already mostly trogledite.
August 29 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hey!
August 29 at 7:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "You only have 13 children? You really should consider stepping up your duty to the Lord."
August 29 at 7:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Who has 13?
August 29 at 7:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia OCto-mom X 8!
August 29 at 7:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (I jest, I jest)
August 29 at 7:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Bethea is the only one, at the last reckoning, to outdo pb in verbosity.
August 29 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and in wisdom!
August 29 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Peregrine has 13 children. They run his social media accounts
August 29 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer BABIES EVERYWHERE! http://youtu.be/Y6rE0EakhG8?t=20s
Nutrigrain Ad
Nutrigrain bars: Feel Great. :)
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley perhaps we'll split duties: I'll misspell names, Bethea will troll the thread.
August 29 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia (those aren't children, they're clones)
August 29 at 7:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think you're catching me
August 29 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edword
August 29 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer If you are under 25 and not married, you are a menace to society.
August 29 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Any word on what happened to Scott Weinerface?
August 29 at 7:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia got his ass kicked in a bar by a lady
August 29 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If you are over 25 and not married, you're an even bigger menace to society.
August 29 at 7:08pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer I meant over. OOPS
August 29 at 7:08pm · Like
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John Boyer http://youtu.be/PDAYBm9MyZQ
Mormon Marriage Madness
http://www.everythingisterrible.com
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:08pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer I will spam this thread with funny videos until Ed gets the various jobs straightened out.
August 29 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ah, the delegation of duties. Wonderful!
August 29 at 7:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia division of labor is just a capitalist plot to oppress the poor
August 29 at 7:11pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Fiction is from THE DEVIL. ESPECIALLY Harry Potter. http://youtu.be/OO-nN8Icqsw
Harry Potter Is The Antichrist
For more videos, DVDs, and found footage insanity: www.everythingisterrible.com
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Fiction is made up. Made up things are lies. Satan is the Father of Lies. Therefore fiction is Satan's child. Therefore fiction is from the devil.
August 29 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer The guy in the video obviously read Harry Potter more closely that I did. I had no clue there was incest and pedophilia.
August 29 at 7:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dude, the mormon video was a riot. I grew up in mo-mo country
August 29 at 7:16pm · Like
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John Boyer Sound argument. Time to purge seminar of all that "literature." Surprised PB didn't get upset about the smoke of satan in seminar class.
August 29 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My question is that if equal dollar values indicate some vague sort of equivalence, in what world is two gallons of gas equivalent to a gallon of milk?
August 29 at 7:17pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Freshman Seminar guide: http://youtu.be/dMD18ZF0MLo
Oedipus The King - Thug Notes Summary and Analysis
Don't run from destiny, just hit that SUBSCRIBE button...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I was wondering when Thug notes would make an appearance
August 29 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - there's also abortion in HP. Remember the mandrakes? Don't answer that - reading those books will send you right to hell.
August 29 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Hey dude, I took a gallon of milk from your refrigerator but it's ok, I replaced it with two gallons of gas!"
August 29 at 7:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Just have a couple glasses of cold gasoline with them cookies!"
August 29 at 7:20pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer But I can't drink cold gas!
August 29 at 7:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia isn't that "opportunity cost" in economics?
August 29 at 7:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Don't worry, John, it's equivalent!
August 29 at 7:21pm · Like
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John Boyer I think I might be a woman trapped inside a man's body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k2FkUF41AA
menstrual cramps
menstrual cramps victim vents
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Cars are abominable inventions and gas was put on earth by the devil to get us addicted to our fast shiny machines. WAKE UP SHEEPLE
August 29 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger So, Isak, do you really think HP is good literature?
August 29 at 7:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think anyone made THAT claim
August 29 at 7:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John - in all seriousness, no, I don't think HP is very good literature. I think it's the reading equivalent of candy. I don't agree with the more extreme theories I've heard regarding its so-called dangers, but I do criticize it on the charge that it's poor literature.
I know it's the most popular series ever or whatever.
August 29 at 7:26pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia http://xkcd.com/1013/
xkcd: Wake Up Sheeple
Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...
XKCD.COM
August 29 at 7:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Look Lewis was heavily involved in the occult before he became protestant and in shows, esp. in his trilogy (he never got it out of his system -- very difficult to do). Charles Williams was member of Ordo Templis Orientalis (and it shows). Barfield was on his screwy evolution of consciousness (he was a student of the freakshow anthroposophist Rudolph Steiner -- yeah read some of his wacky stuff)........
August 29 at 7:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia CS Lewis sucked. There. I said it too
August 29 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ......I am getting at the inklings were heavily involved in the occult and their are points in this article worth considering on the negative side of what he did, I think and I was a big fan but see some problems worth thinking about. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.ca/.../the-fantasy-writing...
RORATE CÆLI: The fantasy writing of Tolkien was Catholic!Well, not so fast ...
RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM
August 29 at 7:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I think it's somewhere between the Hunger Games and Eragon
August 29 at 7:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey hang on what's wrong with the occult?
August 29 at 7:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Eragon was truly atrocious.
August 29 at 7:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I've only read Hunger games, so I'm out of my element here
August 29 at 7:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Michael I can't see that cartoon. Looks like my school bans XKCD from access! I am saddened.
August 29 at 7:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's a silly article 'bout Tolkien, if it's the one I'm thinking of.
August 29 at 7:30pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger No, Harry Potter is not just candy. It's complete crap ..... of course long ago when it first came out I was ambivalent (just thinking it was bad literature -- terrible really, never liked the first chapter and the hack job done on the family. But chapter one is terrible. I have since reread it two times.
August 29 at 7:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think I'm winning this one
August 29 at 7:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley For Isak's benefit
August 29 at 7:31pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I think the gnosis criticism, the magic use, and the confusion of supernatural and natural are problematic and worth considering. (that is Tolkien). .....
August 29 at 7:32pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia thanks Edweird
August 29 at 7:31pm · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, wonderful - we're on the Harry Potter is Satanic trash kick!
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict HAHAHA
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, if you want to throw out Beowulf, the Norse Sagas, Homer and King Arthur
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yeah that article on Tolkien is laughable.
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It is trash in every way....
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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Megan Baird (Or at least on the it's Very Very Bad kick)
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Where's Pergrine when you need himl.
August 29 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger what is laughable. be specific.
August 29 at 7:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No, I really don't think it's trash. I just don't think it's worth defending.
August 29 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It basically criticises Tolkien by rubrics applicable to a different kind of writing.
August 29 at 7:33pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger AMAZING. How the mind absolutely shuts down if you utter a word of disparagement about Potter or Tolkien.
August 29 at 7:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That part where the blog author talks about admiring the beautifully carved altar only to discover it's Rosicrucian made or whatever comes to mind. Beauty is to be found everywhere and always belongs to God, even if it has come about by means outside the one True Faith.
August 29 at 7:34pm · Unlike · 4
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Nina Rachele check out how quickly we liked that comment guys
August 29 at 7:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Myths, fairytales, fables, magic - all exquisite and necessary for the proper formation of an imagination in my opinion.
August 29 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The main objection is that, as Aristotle says, a work of art is to be judged in itself and not according to the knowledge or character of the artist.
August 29 at 7:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^now you sound like Perebonbon Isak
August 29 at 7:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - my mind's not shutting down. I'm totally willing to listen. I just feel like it's fair you know from the outset what my current opinion is. It could change! I would be made better if I do not have the right opinion now.
August 29 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia do we need holistic theosophanic tantric magisterial dogmathons?
August 29 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I just like a good story, man. That's where I'm coming from. Hey pass that over here will you
August 29 at 7:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Also John - the author of that blog is not treating Joseph Campbell fairly. I am readily able to criticize him, but he is practically without peer when it comes to comparative mythology.
August 29 at 7:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley The charges of gnosticism would be more appropriate if he was trying to do philosophy or theology
August 29 at 7:39pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele I feel like John is preparing this really epic response right now
August 29 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or go to TAC
#gnosisrocks
August 29 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele or he's gone to eat dinner
August 29 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer http://youtu.be/lL0WayC7jW0
norm saves the interview
This is an interview with a girl from MELROSE PLACE... Thank GOD, Norm Macdonald cannot resist giving her...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 29 at 7:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Dinner sounds good. It's Friday afternoon in a teacher's life. That means beer.
August 29 at 7:40pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I just wanted some space from that NFP this, NFP that retro Albigensian, manichean blabber .....
August 29 at 7:40pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia THANK YOU John!
August 29 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia off to the store. kids ate all the food again
August 29 at 7:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia don't pass perfection without me (8128
August 29 at 7:41pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele well guys looks like we have a goal
August 29 at 7:41pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley "Consider yet another point, namely that in the Middle Earth of Tolkien, death for man is a gift: “the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar (Tolkien’s one god), which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."
Augustine has a section hidden somewhere in the City of God or elsewhere where he talks about how it was good that the Crucufixion didn't remove death. As far as I can tell, in Tolkien men don't come around until after what stands as the fall.
August 29 at 7:41pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Let's fight about Harry Potter! My position is neither that it is heretical, dangerous trash, nor that it is great or even good literature. I find it highly imaginative but abysmally storied. Bottom line - entertaining escapism.
August 29 at 7:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But seriously, Aristotle, Plato et al. had problems with the myths of Homer: esp. how they treated of the gods. Works such as Tolkien form the young minds (even Grimms tales I believe discussed earlier here or maybe not). I've been reconsidering GKC's take on fairy tales.
August 29 at 7:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Was Plato right to have problems with those myths?
August 29 at 7:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Harry Potter is the gateway to the occult. JKRowling is thoroughly steeped in it.
August 29 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger YES Isak
August 29 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Indeed I believe he thought the stories of the gods (esp. Odysseus' tale) should be not read to the youth.......
August 29 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger .......but later when it could be rightly understood.
August 29 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The stories of the gods lead to corruption of the youth.
August 29 at 7:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't think he was right to have problems with them. He wanted to kick out the poets, but did say that if anyone could adequately defend them he would let them back in.
August 29 at 7:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Without approaching the question of Plato (who thought the poets divinely inspired as well, see Ion), I think Aristotle is mostly concerned with the philosophical appropriations of Homer.
In the Poetics, he seems perfectly fine with all the various Greek poetic uses of myth (not only Homer, but also Euripides, etc.)
August 29 at 7:44pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I maintain that Homer thought they were bad (with perhaps the exception of Poseidon). HE SHOWS that dramatically.
August 29 at 7:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think the Republic should be relied upon as presenting Plato's view of a well ordered political society.
August 29 at 7:44pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger IN the Poetics, he also says the poets lie. That is a GREAT work
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well, I read the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey at a very early age, but they were children's versions. I graduated slowly to more and more mature versions as my mind's ability to handle such also grew mature. What's wrong with doing it that way?
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele ^_ please explicate
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I meant Ed's comment about Plato
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes, the poets lie. Fiction is a lie. And it's a good lie.
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and the best critique of poetry esp. in the sense of helping to understand poetry and how to read it (drama and stories in particular)
August 29 at 7:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger HOMER does not have the immoral effect today as in the ancient days because we don't believe in the gods ISAK
August 29 at 7:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley And the Republic? he tells us at the very beginning that the city being built is to be a model of the soul. The most common critique of his account is that he confuses a unity of order with the unity of an individual: coincidence? I think not!
August 29 at 7:46pm · Like
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John Boyer But Strauss says...
August 29 at 7:46pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele if fiction is about universals is it strictly speaking a lie? EDIT: about universals like Aristotle says in the poetics
August 29 at 7:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Church has rightly always had a strange relationship with, say, theater for example. On the one hand she recognizes the danger of pretending to be something other than what you are and participating in made up stories. On the other hand she knows very well that telling stories is the most powerful, most effective way to tell the truth. Medieval plays took place on the steps of the cathedrals.
August 29 at 7:47pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Edward ^^^^^^^^^^^^ you may be right about Aristotle way up there.
August 29 at 7:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You don't believe in the gods, John? Why not?
August 29 at 7:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley We have to remember, as Dr. Noone says, Roman theater was basically pornography.
August 29 at 7:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Yes ISAK about the Church and theatre and it's well worth considering why. (And what sort of theatre she was concerned about.
August 29 at 7:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Just out of curiosity, why are you capitalizing my name? haha
August 29 at 7:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Sorry, if I'm not responding. Too many posts. And I'm getting adjusted to becoming the new troll here.
August 29 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Does that mean Augustine wouldn't like Game of Thrones or Game of Thrones doesn't hold a candle to Roman Theater
August 29 at 7:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley Both?
August 29 at 7:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Just to make sure you see, isak.
August 29 at 7:49pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Figured it'd be both.
August 29 at 7:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't need Augustine to tell me that Game of Thrones is a stinking corpse of a story...and not because of all the boobage, either...
August 29 at 7:49pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Bad pacing.
August 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Atrocious writing.
August 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley But Augustine says it so vehemently
August 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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John Boyer I liked the prose in the first book.
August 29 at 7:50pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Haven't read any of the others.
August 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley I always like reading the Fathers because they don't hesistate to refer to the "hated-of-God Nestorius"
August 29 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Maybe he got lucky in the first one. I got 3/4 through and never finished. Saw the first season of the show and never bothered again. Better things to do - like comment for eternity on The Thread.
August 29 at 7:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley I should make a practice of that in my papers
August 29 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer So, should fiction reveal a deeper truth, which Plato would seem to appreciate because of the whole Noble lie....
August 29 at 7:51pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Ed, I want you to do that at conferences. A LOT.
August 29 at 7:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, fiction primarily should be for the sake of diverting a virtuous man
August 29 at 7:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And Chrysostum EXCOMMUNICATED folks for going to the circus. But does anyone care to know the reasons why. BTW Alban Butler is IMO wrote one of the best works all time in the English language. Very good resource. He was a polymath and read everything. His Lives (the original) are great (4 vol. or 12.
August 29 at 7:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Great question John. I think yes, very much.
August 29 at 7:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley As that pompous buffoon Maritain says in the execrable Degrees of Knowledge . . .
August 29 at 7:52pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Edward was that a serious response?
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like
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John Boyer That is a good way to start a physical brawl during q&a
August 29 at 7:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley About the purpose of ficiton? yes.
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Okay. Diverting a virtuous man towards what?
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'd like to do it in the presence of Finnis or Grisez
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Exactly!!
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like
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John Boyer It should be relaxation.
August 29 at 7:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger unto what?
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley As in amusing him
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But what sorts of things would the virtuous man find relaxing?
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger HP
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ?
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Really? You read The Brothers Karamazov for amusement?
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer So no need for deeper truth or revealing human nature in ways that stimulate the mind to comtemplation.
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Depictions of virtue.
August 29 at 7:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I read Aristotle for amusement.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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John Boyer That's not amusement.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and Chaucer. and Dante.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Brothers K is not exactly the book I would pick for depictions of virtue.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure those things can happen, but they should be a consequence of the way the primary end is achieved.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger esp. Chaucer for amusement.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Doesn't fiction tell a truth by holding the mirror up to nature, as it were?
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer I think that Edward reads the Fathers primarily for the sick burns
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and TNET.
August 29 at 7:55pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I read TNET because it's a thousand times better than my feed used to be.
August 29 at 7:56pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict And I can't stop.
August 29 at 7:56pm · Edited · Like · 6
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John Boyer ^THIS
August 29 at 7:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I would love for someone to write "The People's History of The Never-Ending Thread." You know, a concise chronicle of its ages and its aeons.
August 29 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer That sounds like a cultural marxist version, Mr. Zinn
August 29 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I like a little cultural marxism mixed in with my myth-obessions.
August 29 at 7:58pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Approaching 8000
August 29 at 7:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley what sorts of things would the virtuous man find relaxing?
depictions of action in its proper context which make clear the motives of the agents.
August 29 at 7:59pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley since pleasure is found in the best operations of well-disposed faculties
August 29 at 8:00pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matter of fact I feel like at some point this is going to end in a surreal fashion - TNET will awaken and force us all to drop acid, at which point we will have visions of recurring eternity for the rest of our lives. Potato.
August 29 at 8:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or, to say it another way "qualis unumquodque est talis finis videtur ei"
August 29 at 8:00pm · Like
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John Boyer Virtuous men only read about the virtuous? That rules out a large number of stories.
August 29 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Not what I said
August 29 at 8:00pm · Like
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John Boyer Go oooooooon
August 29 at 8:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But, Boyer, that is born out by the lives of many saints.
August 29 at 8:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And yes it does rule out much.
August 29 at 8:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Edward - to say that a man would find depictions of Achilles slaughtering Trojans relaxing is to use the word in a manner quite new to me.
August 29 at 8:01pm · Like
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John Boyer Depictions of vice and its folly would count as well, according to this criteria too I guess.
August 29 at 8:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger For continent men, I suppose satire is very useful and amusing too.
August 29 at 8:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But to the truly virtuous. .... perhaps.
August 29 at 8:03pm · Like
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John Boyer Satire is also a means of instruction for the incontinent and vicious.
August 29 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yes.
August 29 at 8:04pm · Like
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John Boyer Ok, dinner time
August 29 at 8:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Okay - I would love to know what you guys think makes a good STORY. I don't think we're on the same page about this. I have to go at the moment but I look forward to returning to my vomit.
August 29 at 8:04pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger vale.
August 29 at 8:04pm · Like
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Nina Rachele eat well
August 29 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele 1. a bad or mediocre character becoming a good or ok person
August 29 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele well, that's my favorite kind of story.
August 29 at 8:05pm · Like
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Nina Rachele 2. noble people undergoing trials, tribulations and temptations and becoming even nobler through them
August 29 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele second favorite kind of story.
August 29 at 8:06pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Are you folks really going to leave the discussion of Homer behind that quickly? Doesn't he deserve better than a passing glance?
August 29 at 8:07pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele I think everyone's gone to dinner...
August 29 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Their bellies are their gods . . .
August 29 at 8:14pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger on road
August 29 at 8:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond When I tuned in to this thread, I was intrigued by something you said about Poseidon, John, but I can't find it now--too many crazy comments to search through them all.
August 29 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele "I maintain that Homer thought they were bad (with perhaps the exception of Poseidon). HE SHOWS that dramatically."
August 29 at 8:25pm · Like
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Nina Rachele ^John's post
August 29 at 8:25pm · Like
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Nina Rachele about poseidon
August 29 at 8:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger that poseidon may be the only good god in homer. The rest . . . bad
August 29 at 8:26pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Thanks, Nina. What an interesting thing to say, John. I have always viewed Poseidon as playing the satanic role in the Odyssey, so I am intrigued by your claim. What do you find good about Poseidon in the Odyssey?
August 29 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger thats interesting.. .. In car
August 29 at 8:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia whew back before perfection...
August 29 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond While I wait for you to park the car and explain your interpretation, I will offer some thoughts about the two brothers, Zeus and Poseidon, the latter being evil, the former being good. Here it is helpful to think about four similar sets of brothers--one good, the other evil--from Shakespeare: King Hamlet and Claudius in Hamlet; Duke Senior and Duke Fredrick in As You Like It; Don Pedro and Don John in Much Ado About Nothing; and Prospero and Antonio in The Tempest. In all four plays the benevolent authority is temporarily usurped or thwarted by the unlawful and false authority of the evil yet fraternal power. This aspect of fraternity, combined with the eventual dramatic reversal of the evil power or its subjection to the good, suggests that Shakespeare’s cosmology is not dualistic or gnostic, but Christian. In other words, the existence of evil is paradoxically linked to the good, and plays a role within the pale of a single divine purpose: the freedom and sanctification of man. I see the same principle operating in Homer. Zeus is the Heavenly Father; Poseidon is the satanic force who unwittingly serves the divine plan to bring Odysseus home after much suffering and subsequent insight into himself and the divine order of things. The comparison to Job's trial is striking: just as Satan is permitted by God the Father to inflict pain on the blameless and upright Job, so Zeus allows Poseidon to punish Odysseus (who is not blameless and upright) in order to bring Odysseus to a state of moral perfection.
August 29 at 8:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and kill all the suitors....
August 29 at 8:54pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Absolutely.
August 29 at 8:55pm · Like
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John Boyer I remember so little of Homer. It was so long ago. Even though I read a book of Odyssey and a book of Iliad in Greek about five years ago.
August 29 at 8:58pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Thankfully Homer never grows old.
August 29 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Michael, you forgot to mention the execution of the women servants who had been sleeping with the suitors!
August 29 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Whenever I think of Homer, I think of "rosy-fingered dawn" - that particular phrasing has always stayed fresh in my memory.
August 29 at 9:09pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, and the wine-dark sea.
August 29 at 9:11pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Yes...in any other piece of literature, those descriptions probably would have been forgettable. Not with Homer, though.
August 29 at 9:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Speaking of unforgettable, how about the description of Odysseus' faithful dog Argos?
August 29 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond
August 29 at 9:24pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond
August 29 at 9:25pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Ladies and gentlemen, The Thread is closer than ever to achieving self-consciousness - for Jeffrey Bond has entered the conversation. We are almost out of the cave!!
August 29 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I would like to remind you all of the positions available here at World Spirit Networking. Act now for the highest-yielding dividends the negation of the negation can offer!
August 29 at 9:34pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Damn, I missed another meeting.
August 29 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Well, that's interesting and I could well have everything all upside down.
But with respect to Zeus and Poseidon, I see the former as the usurper. Poseidon is the elder of the two. And though Zeus brags that he could defeat all the gods easily, there are indications that the whole world would split if Poseidon were to fight him.
How did Poseidon hinder Odysseus' return? At what point? It is not until he is all alone on the raft at sea that Poseidon "hinders" him when he is only but a few weeks from his return. And what does it accomplish, but to bring him to the Phaiakians, by whom he is furnished with more wealth than had he come back with all of his booty from the Iliad? And who were the peaceful Phaiakians but those most dear to him? And as I see it they were "punished" for returning Odysseus lest lest they become known to the marauding Greeks and they were hidden from the likes of Odysseus himself. And again, it is Poseidon who urges Ajax (if memory serves) to save the ships at the burning.
It is Zeus and Athena, who are the principles of disorder. Why did Odysseus hide (kalypso) on the island for seven years, except for the same reason that (urged by Athena, sent by Zeus) he kept the Greeks from fleeing home (after Agammenon's 'brilliant' idea -- I can't help laughing out loud -- of 'testing' the Greeks). Now when Zeus sent Athena, he told her to go to the Greek leaders each one and stop them. However, she went only to Odysseus and what did she say? She reminded him of the shame there would be if after ten years they come home empty handed. Thereat Odysseus grabbed Agammemnon's sceptre (which the 'king of kings' "leaned" on) and wielded it: using arguments to urge on the leaders but smashing the lesser men on the head, just as he would do to Thersites in assembly, Thersites who voiced the very opinion of Homer (narrating -- or it seems to me) that many men should die and few return. So too Odysseus the many-wiled interpret the omen opposite its true meaning; and so a great though proud city fell and almost not one Greek returned home.
But Odysseus it seems for the same reason would not return home, namely the shame of having lost every man and the shame of no treasure (how would he be greeted by his citizens when he came home). I see Poseidon only giving benefits and keeping safe his own people.
But again what happens upon the return, but that Odysseus having lost (or destroyed) all 600 men, now finishes off the rest of the flower of the youth of Ithica, who became corrupt in the long absence of a good lord, and except for the intervention (and how long does that last?) of Athena, Odysseus would be avenged upon himself. Not only does he bring home the ravages of war into his own home and the clanging of the armor of those falling dead, but he corrupts the swineherd Eumaeus, best of all, prince at birth, and father of his son, who in the end cuts off the arms and legs and gonads of the goat-herder. But the main question is, does he also corrupt Telemachus, who with his own hands hangs the wicked women of his house. ...... but what was Ithika in ancient days? Was it not but a name of legend, a desolate island? and like of Beowulf and the Geats, could we not say of the Ithikans, they were no more?
Under Zeus, does justice prevail? Or rather is it hidden among the Phaiakians dear to Poseidon? (And Virgil seems to pick up on this, when Neptune appears like a statesman to calm the waves. And likewise at the end of that book after Aeneas' last -- as well as almost only -- words to his son, "Watch and I will show you what it is to be a man" (from memory) and proceeds to do what?????)
Under the sun, I say, "not one does right". But perhaps I am all wrong. In Virgil's case it's more obvious, for Aeneas brings endless war to Italy, that under Latinus had known only Saturnial peace for time immemorial: "bella, horrida, bella" cried the Sybil.
August 29 at 9:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia οἶνοψ πόντος
August 29 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Jeffrey Bond ^^
August 29 at 9:35pm · Like
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Sam Rocha tl;dr
August 29 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You didn't get the memo? World Spirit Networking may be forced to consider you a slave from here on out, Sam.
August 29 at 9:36pm · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I've always been a slave, and it doesn't bother me too much.
August 29 at 9:36pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The Peregrine has vanished, and now it's all about Zeus and Poseidon. I have to go back to work, but it makes me happy just seeing this interesting convo.
I feel like this epoch of the Thread is warm and glowing, shining like the light on glorious Mediterranean heroes of old.
But corruption and death could be just around the corner...
August 29 at 9:39pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia with slavery, at least you're guaranteed square meals.
August 29 at 9:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'm out at 8128 - having achieved enlightenment
August 29 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (and you're probably sick of the notifications...... Matthew Peterson)
August 29 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think the Thread serves a practical need - an ongoing conversation one could drop in and out of like a pub.
August 29 at 9:40pm · Like · 10
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Matthew J. Peterson I wish a took a screenshot of the notification for Peregrine commenting on a link I shared..
August 29 at 9:41pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia why's that?
August 29 at 9:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia for the memories?
August 29 at 9:41pm · Like
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Sam Rocha Did he disappear or was he discovered to never exist to begin with? I never figured that one out.
August 29 at 9:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia he huffed off by deleting his fb account. he did the same thing roughly a year ago
August 29 at 9:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Sam, he has been a figment of the collective unconscious all along. Get with the program, son!
August 29 at 9:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia absorbed into the thread of the matrix
August 29 at 9:42pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes. Bwhahaha. For the memories. I saw that image a lot while running around and settling in for teaching this semester. And given that he still comes up but his page is blocked...but no. These are happy centuries. Let us discuss Zeus and Poiseden, before the dark times come again.
August 29 at 9:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I'm so slow. Should have gone to TAC.
August 29 at 9:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you think he's coming back?
August 29 at 9:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes I think Dr. Bond's comment needs a response.
August 29 at 9:43pm · Like
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Sam Rocha Jesus?
August 29 at 9:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 8000 is Jesus
August 29 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict How very fitting!
August 29 at 9:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson He will come back the way he left.
I'm no prophet, but I bet he's fighting Zuckerberg right now, and trying to come back through Hades to haunt us all.
August 29 at 9:44pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson But in all seriousness, we should find a way to make money off this before Zuckerberg's all seeing eye notices that people want this kind of thing. I love having this rolling thread to return to that people come in and out of.
August 29 at 9:45pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia man, someone reported him? there goes my fun for 36 hours
August 29 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh John did offer a response to Dr. Bond's comment! My screen is not keeping up with the abundance of wisdom
August 29 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Just like Gandolph.
August 29 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But what of Poseidon as demonic?
August 29 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson [How can we compete with Zuck - let's just take what he gives us]
August 29 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict What of Zeus as a usurper?
August 29 at 9:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know how to read that in light of the "chain of Zeus"....
August 29 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "and she shed a light tear" (of Helen remembering her husband Menelaus just before she tries to seduce Hector). so so so many great one liners.
August 29 at 9:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger later.
August 29 at 9:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Did Michael Beitia just reference my characterization of The Never-Ending Thread as the golden chain of Zeus, the axis mundi shot through all that exists and about which all things turn - from thousands of comments ago? I am truly impressed. The self-referential nature of The Thread is becoming only more and more evident.
I also just realized something else. Has anyone succumbed to Godwin's Law yet in over 8000 comments?
August 29 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird (I have this vision of Peregrine trying to cross the river Styx trying to escape the FB equivalent of the Underworld.)
August 29 at 9:59pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird No one better volunteer to be his Charon.
August 29 at 10:00pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Megan Baird you just cracked me up, out loud and everything
August 29 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond In response to John's interesting interpretation, I cannot agree (but cannot address all at once the many points he makes). Let's think about Zeus. He is the Father of Gods and Men. Zeus' golden chain, which all the gods and men on the other end could not drag down from the heights of Olympus in a divine game of tug-a-war, has rightly--and traditionally--been taken as the first literary reference to the great chain of Being. Everything "hangs" on that. Boethius in the Consolation of Philosophy uses this Homeric imagery to talk about the chain of love that binds the cosmos into a One. It is also Zeus, in an astonishing anticipation of God the Father's sacrifice of His beloved Son, who cries tears of blood when he must sacrifice his son Sarpedon so that Troy will be rightly punished for its defense of adultery. As for Poseidon, note that he ultimately must defer to the will of Zeus, so Poseidon is clearly not the superior god despite being the elder brother. (As in Scripture, so in Homer, the elder is never the divine favorite, that being a merely human convention that God always thwarts.) Poseidon inflicts pain on Odysseus because Odysseus blinded his son, Polyphemus the cyclops. Poseidon, the lord of the formless ocean, punishes Odysseus through his many faces on the endless sea: Circe, Calypso, Skylla, Charybdis, etc. Ultimately, however, it is Zeus who is behind the punishment since it is his divine plan to bring Odysseus home once he is ready. As for Odysseus' men, Homer tells us from the beginning that they do not make it home due to their own wild recklessness. Odysseus is not responsible for the fact that they lose their homecoming. They eat the cattle of the sun--think here of the Garden of Eden--and are destroyed by Zeus.
August 29 at 10:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I would volunteer. I crave amusement.
August 29 at 10:01pm · Like
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Megan Baird Michael Beitia: I think you'd make an admirable Charon. Make The Peregrine a bit sea-sick crossing the Styx, will you?
August 29 at 10:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no I'd bring him over safe and sound. I love contention. It's a defect in me
August 29 at 10:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, I like the interpretation, except for the Boethius/God anticipation reference. It always makes me go a big Nietzschean flutter when every stick is a cross in literature
August 29 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Oh, safe and sound is fine. Just give him a little discomfort.... smooth voyages do not make for strong sailors. A little pain is good for people.
(Ok, I realize that made me sound a little bit evil.)
August 29 at 10:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I love the ocean, but there is a mystery, a power a chaos that it moves and moves it. the ocean is constantly moving. That's what I think of when I think of sea deities (Aegir)
August 29 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think there's something primally frightening about the οἶνοψ πόντος, wine-drunkenness, abandonment..... why wouldn't the sea punish Odysseus? that's what it does.
August 29 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Well, speaking of the cross (since you brought it up, Michael), St. Augustine rightly said that the cross is not significant because Christ died on it, but Christ died on it because it was significant. The cross is everywhere in Homer, especially in the weaving of Penelope where every vertical and horizontal thread meet. The vertical and horizontal imagery in the Odyssey is almost limitless. The early Christians were especially found of the image of Odysseus tied to the mast (always depicted in Greek art with a horizontal crossbeam) as a presentiment of the crucifixion.
August 29 at 10:12pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Funny you should mention the ocean, Michael - and the cross. For as the golden chain of Zeus hangs vertically, eternally binding the cosmos into one, the ocean exists horizontally, in a perpetual state of motion. It stands as the world of things that come to be and pass away, as the world of contingency, to the divine and eternal world represented by the golden chain.
August 29 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well that was uncanny. Looks like we've achieved a true unity of consciousness. The Thread-Merge is at hand!
August 29 at 10:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You be the vertical thread, and I'll be the horizontal.
August 29 at 10:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey I wanted to be the horizontal!
August 29 at 10:14pm · Like
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Megan Baird The ocean's rather like this thread - ever moving, ever constant - drawing people in with an inexpressible power. The more one resists, the more one is drawn to it.
August 29 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It may be more like Charybdis: always sucking down and then spewing forth.
August 29 at 10:17pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond And we, Odysseus-like, must reach up to the great tree that hangs over the whirlpool lest we be lost forever.
August 29 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Okay, that comment had me laughing so hard I choked on my wine.
That poor wine. It'll never be the same. Neither will be my vocal chords.
August 29 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia To be clear, I brought up the chain as an objection to John's interpretation. I clearly see that God's providence acts in this world. But as lyric and beautiful as Odysseus tied to a mast may be, the horrors of the Romans crucifying all the gladiators in the Spartacus revolt is a little less poetic.
August 29 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I have short arms - I won't be able to reach the tree. So I'm pretty prepared to be sucked under.
August 29 at 10:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Well, then cling to the mast and keel (that Odysseus lashed together like a good wanna be Christian), and then paddle like mad when the mast/keel are spewed forth.
August 29 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia this is one of the reasons I detest discussing literature. We all bring something to the interpretation.... like take out
August 29 at 10:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This is more like playing with literature as opposed to really discussing it. In any event, why would you detest take out?
August 29 at 10:23pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict More like a potluck, Michael...
August 29 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia If I'm paying for food, I want someone else to clean it up
August 29 at 10:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fine Isak, my metaphorical syllogisms suck
August 29 at 10:24pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict World Spirit Networking also offers a maid service.
August 29 at 10:24pm · Like
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Isak Benedict And we might be able to help you out with your meta-syllo-phor-gisms as well.
August 29 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia plus there's so many food allergies in this house, take out is almost impossible
August 29 at 10:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Syllometagismphorically speaking?
August 29 at 10:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no really speaking
August 29 at 10:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The roasted meats in the Odyssey always make my mouth water.
August 29 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ah yes, metagismsyllophorically speaking, of course
August 29 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my oldest can't eat dairy, nuts, peanuts or eggs: I can't hack ham-fisted Christian references in pre-Christian texts
August 29 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe NO ONE defended Harry Potter? Really you guys?
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Harry Potter sucks
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Homer was just a little bit more interesting.
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird By the time I was ready to defend Harry Potter, the thread had leaped to another topic.
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like
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Megan Baird And I got whiplash so that put a damper on typing out replies.
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You can't let that stop you, Megan
August 29 at 10:30pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't worry Megan. It will return.
August 29 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia everything returns
August 29 at 10:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If there were no Christian references in pre-Christian texts, we would have to doubt that nature awaits grace or that reason is perfected by faith.
August 29 at 10:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia not really. What we bring with us, we can find easily. Is it there before we bring it? less clear
August 29 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Harry Potter is absolutely candy and candy is delicious
August 29 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This bears quoting again, I think: "The Heaviest Burden. What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or night, and said to you: "The Neverending Thread, as you experience it at present, and have experienced it, you must experience it once more, and also innumerable times; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and every sigh, and all the unspeakably small and great in The Thread must come to you again, and all in the same series and sequence - and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the trees, and similarly this moment, and I myself. The eternal sand-glass of The Thread will ever be turned once more, and you with it, you speck of dust!" - Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth, and curse the demon that so spoke? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer him: "You are a God, and never did I hear anything so divine!" If that thought acquired power over you as you are, it would transform you, and perhaps crush you; the question with regard to all and everything: "Do you want this Thread once more, and also for innumerable times?" would lie as the heaviest burden upon your activity! Or, how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to The Thread, so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and sealing?"
August 29 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia IDK I haven't read it
August 29 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm thinking of really tasty candy like chocolate with sea salt and almonds or something
August 29 at 10:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha, it's all fun and games until your teeth fall out
August 29 at 10:32pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I agree with St. Paul. The Greeks had no excuse since God revealed Himself first in the book of nature.
August 29 at 10:32pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the book of nature is not the book of Homer
August 29 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Homer is the poet of nature. In fact, the Greek word physis first appears in Homer in his description of the moly.
August 29 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Candy is delicious and suitable in its own place. I enjoy candy. But I also enjoy steak and potatoes and shepherds pie.
August 29 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh if only Peregrine could see what just happened. Jeffrey Bond, the vast majority of this eternal conversation was spent dancing around the issue of whether a man could come to know God through reason alone, based on God's presence in nature.
August 29 at 10:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I once read a existentialist reduction of the short story "A Descent into the Maelstrom" by Poe, relating it to business. After that, I've got nothing left for you guys
August 29 at 10:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and I'm sorry, but what does "Homer is the poet of nature" mean?
August 29 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It means that Homer, without the benefit of revelation, saw into the nature of things and first showed her to us.
August 29 at 10:36pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger thanks, Jeffrey. The Odyssey is the strangest poem. So many questions. One i would wish i could take up in a reading group.
August 29 at 10:37pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We must all meet some place and have that discussion.
August 29 at 10:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia hmm . . . I'll have to think about that. I've always subscribed to the "all literature is a footnote of Homer" school of thought.
August 29 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It has to be near Chicago
August 29 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird This thread has inspired me to reread Homer again so I can really have a fruitful discussion on it.
August 29 at 10:38pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond I would place myself in that school for sure.
August 29 at 10:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Chicago would be wonderful. Where shall we meet?
August 29 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I prefer the Iliad, to be frank. The Odyssey always confused me a bit
Medici's on 57th
August 29 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Nice to know it is still there. When shall we meet?
August 29 at 10:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I tend to prefer whichever of the two I'm reading at the moment.
August 29 at 10:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beats me. Mass gets out around 11:30 on Sunday.... noonish?
August 29 at 10:40pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The Iliad is much tougher, I think.
August 29 at 10:40pm · Like
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Megan Baird I miss Chicago. I have family near there ~ and my parents took us to St. John Cantius quite a few times. #nostalgia
August 29 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I probably cannot get there until next summer. I hope that works for the rest of you.
August 29 at 10:41pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Pater Edmund should really get back into this conversation.
August 29 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'll probably be here.
August 29 at 10:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But i would far p refer the Odyssey. I am ever wandering and have little strength to topple a city that size: more begger than warrior I
August 29 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Mass at the Institute of Christ the King, then lunch at Medici's under the shadow of the University of Chicago. A Sunday in July perhaps?
August 29 at 10:45pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I don't think it is legal to toppke a city . . .
August 29 at 10:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond even in this permissive age.
August 29 at 10:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We have two takers for a Sunday in July in Hyde Park. Any others?
August 29 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's my parish Jeffrey
August 29 at 10:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm in
August 29 at 10:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and I'm not tied to either pick one
August 29 at 10:51pm · Like
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Megan Baird If I can make it, I'd definitely be interested. When I was younger, one of the parishes I attended was an Institute of Christ the King parish. Fantastic order.
August 29 at 10:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, I remember from another thread that you were a parishioner there.
August 29 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Jeffrey - there is no "other thread." The Threadness is all, and all is The Threadness.
August 29 at 10:53pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond So it is John, Michael, Isak, Megan and I. Is there a way to have FB send us a reminder in May so that we can make plans for July?
August 29 at 10:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I may interest another but that is tentative. You don't know Darrell Dobbs, Jeffrey?
August 29 at 10:55pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No, but of course he would be welcome if he is a lover of Homer!
August 29 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://media2.giphy.com/media/nzts9M7pHXXj2/giphy.gif
MEDIA2.GIPHY.COM
August 29 at 10:56pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird You could always create an event for July 2015....that sends out periodic notifications.
August 29 at 10:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger he is. But more of Plato.
August 29 at 10:57pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Then he is even more welcome!
August 29 at 10:57pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Oh, one can never have too much Plato!
August 29 at 10:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I have no idea how to create an event. Being new to FB, I can barely write comments. Can you do it, Megan?
August 29 at 10:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll do it, I'm local
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict https://www.facebook.com/events/1671935386365439/...
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Excellent.
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'll make you the admin, Michael Beitia
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia whatever
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (as in, that's cool)
August 29 at 10:59pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Wow, we even have a date--July 5th. I'll put it on my calendar.
August 29 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland No one banned PB, right?
August 29 at 11:01pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland He's one of the efficient causes of this thread.
August 29 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm afraid someone may have
August 29 at 11:02pm · Like
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Megan Baird I think FB yanked his profile.
August 29 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Or he deleted it himself in shame. This troll hide is so cozy...
August 29 at 11:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Someone invite John
August 29 at 11:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I'm looking forward to breaking bread with you folks at the Medici's on 57th. Gotta go for now.
August 29 at 11:04pm · Like
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Megan Baird I am very grateful to PB for his efficient causality.
August 29 at 11:04pm · Like
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Marie Donovan John Ruplinger I know Dr. Dobbs, I'm sure he'd find this intended Homer conversation interesting.
August 29 at 11:05pm · Like · 2
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Marie Donovan also this thread is certifiably insane.
August 29 at 11:05pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia one
August 29 at 11:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perfect
#gnosisachieved
August 29 at 11:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Welcome, dear Marie.
August 29 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Great. Look forward to it. Thank you.
August 29 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz A little late and a dollar short, but Matthew J. Peterson mentioned a dislike for how graduates refer to the common good. Two things
1. Even if, which seems fair, their notion of the common good is rather imperfect, is it not good that they are introduced to even using the term in a way that isn't associated with mocking leftists? Look at (increasingly trollish) bloggers like Fr. Z...social justice, common good, etc these concepts are only ever mentioned in bashing leftists, as their terminology. To have a "conservative" institution that uses the term in a serious way, even if only defectively, I think helps start breaking a barrier American conservatives have about such talk.
2. Would it be better if we studied On the Primacy of the Common Good, maybe in seminar? Or considering the progenitor status of De Koninck, would that be intellectual masturbation at TAC?
August 29 at 11:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Darrell is a very dear friend and similar in temper to Jeffrey.
August 29 at 11:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you're worried about the common good when my gnosis was just achieved? I should zap you with an outpouring of the world spirit
August 29 at 11:09pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland So this thread has over 8000 comments WITHOUT Bonaventure's?
August 29 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and I have sole possession of 8128!!!
August 29 at 11:09pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Beitia, I am always worried about the common good
August 29 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I am too. and I'm afraid that #1 you wrote above is spot on
August 29 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, Catherine, I think Facebook's comment total includes comments you can't see. But, that's only 600+ comments anyways
August 29 at 11:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I think when FB bans someone, it just sorta hides them, doesn't expunge their data
August 29 at 11:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia it's like the e-timeout
August 29 at 11:18pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz FWIW not only Peregrine, but Scott Weinberg's accounts are gone
August 29 at 11:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I checked that too. We'll see if he comes back in a couple of days
August 29 at 11:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If the thread isnt diversion enough i recommend rereading it with pb invisible
August 29 at 11:21pm · Unlike · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Then we could get the feel for how John Ruplinger read it originally (with no PB)
August 29 at 11:22pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger And I got Jeffrey Bond snagged in the thread.
August 29 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger TNET is frightening. It's out of control.
August 29 at 11:26pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley That sounds slightly unpleasant
August 29 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I believe Joshua Kenz promised some LIGUORI. Very interested really.
August 29 at 11:33pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Buy I thought tnet is pb's porism? How can it be and not be?
August 29 at 11:35pm · Like
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Katie Duda A much simpler question about the Odyssey, (which I agree is a conundrum of a text... and 'poet of nature'... really??) is the question really about Zeus v Poseidon, or is about how enemy and ally work towards the moral rectification of Odysseus?
August 29 at 11:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i have a theory about trolls. . .
August 29 at 11:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes I did. But before that, some context...from the Holy Office!
[Condemned in a decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679]
1158 8. Eating and drinking even to satiety for pleasure only, are not sinful, provided this does not stand in the way of health, since any natural appetite can licitly enjoy its own actions.
1159 9. The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial defect. (from Denzinger, old numbering)
I included 1158 for a reason. I don't know many who think we must be consciously keeping other ends in mind. I want to marry a girl, I need money for a ring, so I take up an extra job, gardening say. I need not be thinking "this is to marry that girl" for that intention to be behind and informing my act. It suffices that I have that intention virtually. Same too with habitual grace and merit, I need not always be thinking, this is for Thee God! In order to be acting for God. And when drinking beer I need not always be thinking of the other ends besides pleasure, e.g. conviviality.
Anyhow, I will pull out Liguori here and do the translating, since John Boyer is lazy, wherein he even says that one can hope a particular act does not produce a child!
August 29 at 11:42pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger i have a rather warped view of Odysseus that emenates from seeing too much the dark side of things, especially of late. So I can little help except to say that Zeus guides the intended harm of Poseidon's actions unto Odysseus' moral rectification. (Much as God thwarts the malice of Satan unto good.)
August 30 at 12:00am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I concur with Bond's poet of nature. Without him, no Socrates or Plato. All we have are a bunch of Pythagorians and we all no how much fun mathematicians are
August 29 at 11:57pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer An excellent point Joshua. My laziness thanks you.
August 30 at 12:00am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Foolishly poking in this thread with no context, are the two propositions above condemned Joshua Kenz?
August 30 at 12:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, hence the Condemned in a decree....preceding them
August 30 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Thank you
August 30 at 12:07am · Like
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Marina Shea I wonder if I can finish Buffy before the thread runs out of steam. You have three seasons people.
August 30 at 12:08am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell These pretzels ... are making me THIRSTY!
August 30 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger yes. And i misread it. So thanks.
August 30 at 12:08am · Like
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Adrw Lng Bring on 10000
August 30 at 12:09am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger context. That's funny. Kenz returned to a topic about 1000 posts old. I just reminded him.
August 30 at 12:21am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley 10000 is a noble goal
August 30 at 12:13am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm sure Daniel Lendman would concur
August 30 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We want a six-digit thread
August 30 at 12:23am · Like
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Aaron Thibodeaux Huh...I can't see Perescott's posts anymore
August 30 at 12:24am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, FB disappeared him
August 30 at 12:24am · Like
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Aaron Thibodeaux Oh...then I'm not excommunicated?
August 30 at 12:24am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Marina Shea: You like Buffy too?
August 30 at 12:25am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I would pay to see the exchange The Peregrine had with Zuckerberg's minions.
August 30 at 12:25am · Like · 7
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Joshua Kenz Sorry for not translating the PAGES of "cases" They have to do with the liciety during pregnancy, menstruation, the time shortly after giving birth, while breast feeding (yes some moralists denied you could have sex then)
From Theologia Moralis, Book 6, vol 4, tractatus 6,,cap 2)
927 From the stated cases, the licit use of matrimony is consequently resolved:
1. For the sake of offspring (prolis causa); even though this does not necessarily have to be intended while [the marital act] is exercised, as long as it is not positively impeded: on the contrary, sometimes it is even licitly excluded in a simple affection, e.g. from pauperism, lest one is excessively burdened by children.
2. For the avoidance of the danger of incontinence on one's own part or that of his partner. Martin Perez from Koninck, Pontius, Hurtatus, etc, against Sanchez, who reckons this to be venial unless, still, they cannot sedate sting of the flesh otherwise (See the aforesaid n. 882, Dubitatio 1. For the same ends, with which it is licit to contract marriage, also dignify [cohonestant] the request for copulation.)
3. The cause of health or because of some other extrinsic ends. Since what is dignified from its own nature and related to one end, is licitly refered to another end not repugnant to it; as teaches Sá, Koninck, Laymann, Martin Perez. See Diana-- Nevertheless to use it for the sake of health alone is probably venial, as St. Thomas, Henriquez and Laymann against Martin Perez teac. [see 883 dubitatio 2]
More to follow
August 30 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Megan- yeah I started it after a debate with some gentlemen about Spike versus Angel, and well here I am.
August 30 at 12:26am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Nice! I've been a fan for years.
I see this thread is now on NFP....I think?
August 30 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "Um, sir, I'm not sure what SACRED THEOLOGY and the MAGISTERIUM have to do with these requests to block and cancel your account."
August 30 at 12:28am · Unlike · 12
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Marina Shea Oh NFP. Yes let's really get into heresy now.
August 30 at 12:28am · Like
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Marina Shea Joshua - not to imply you are a heretic. Just that the word often gets tossed around re: NFP and just cause convos
August 30 at 12:33am · Like
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Catherine Ryland I'm sorry, I don't have any arguments for it, but to say you can't unite with your husband because you're breastfeeding (and naturally infertile) or because your pregnant, or because it's Lent, or whatever is just wrong.
Just because I say so.
I can't even believe people thought this, but they can go eat their hat.
August 30 at 12:35am · Like
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Marina Shea Catherine fwiw I am pretty sure you are good
August 30 at 12:36am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Furthermore, the pregnancy thing is especially bad because you're obviously already intending to procreate, since you ARE.
August 30 at 12:36am · Like
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John Boyer Aquinas explicitly says you should not give up sex for lent.
August 30 at 12:36am · Like · 6
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Catherine Ryland Okay, thanks. But others apparently thought you should, and I think I heard it was a practice.
August 30 at 12:37am · Like
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Marina Shea No i think a couple can decide they need to focus on prayer but I think that is a specific call of the Holy Spirit
August 30 at 12:38am · Like
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Marina Shea Such as some being asked to fast in a way others aren't to focus on God.
August 30 at 12:38am · Like
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson I don't really know any of you here, but I love you all for this thread. One of these days I may sit down and spend a day reading the whole thing.
August 30 at 12:39am · Unlike · 9
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Marina Shea We could make a book!
August 30 at 12:40am · Like
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Marina Shea It could pay off our collective student debts! Buzzfeed would love it!
August 30 at 12:41am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger LIS way back . . . . . . they had reasons. And if you knew the discipline of the early Church. It is edifying.
August 30 at 12:40am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So can you explain these reports about your behavior?
No, I've never heard of Thomas Aquinas College before. Where's tha--
Wait--ChrisEN-DUMB? What?
Oh, *Christendom*.
Like the crusades and stuff?
I went to Stanford, sir.
No, we didn't study ANY dogmas there.
Excuse me - that's just rude. Now about your account--WHAT?!?
No, I can't contribute money towards a bestiary--that sounds terrible, sir. What the heck is--never mind.
Look, it says here you--no, I don't really care what they read or didn't read when they were in college.
I'm not talking to you about the MAGISTERIUM, dammit. Look, you call me that again and - OK, we are done here. You, sir, are banned for life. And the great Eye of Google will be watching you, you hear me?
We'll. BE. WATCHING. YOU.
August 30 at 12:43am · Edited · Like · 8
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John Boyer HA^
See Translation
August 30 at 12:42am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is anyone else wondering if Peregrine Scott is going through withdrawal without this thread?
Then again, he may regenerate as someone else...
August 30 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Christopher Luke Trevilla That which nourishes me also destroys me?
August 30 at 12:43am · Like
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John Boyer The internet is a big place, Jody. Plenty of places to troll.
August 30 at 12:43am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Well he has a 'thing' for TAC. This isn't the first thread and won't be his last.
August 30 at 12:44am · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz And so I add
882 Dubit. 1
Paraphrasing what comes before: There are three ends of matrimony, essential and intrinsic, intrinsic and accidental and extrinsic and accidental. Essential and intrinsic are two: the mutual handing over of selves with the obligation of rendering the debt and the indissoluble bond
Accidental and intrinsic are two: procreation of children and remedying concupiscence
Accidental and extrinsic are any number of reasons why one might marrying....ending a feud is seriously listed by Liguori. He cites Aquinas (Super Sent IV dist 31 qu. 1 a. 3) that excluding the essential and intrinsic ends invalidate and make the attempt at marriage sinful...so likewise would it in the marital act. However one may exclude the intrinsic accidental ends in marrying (BVM and Joseph)
So the question arises (and here my paraphrase ends)
Whether one venially sins who marries principally to remedy concupiscence?
The first opinion affirms [that it is a sin]. An this St. Thomas holds (S. Th. III suppl. q. 49 a.5 ad 2), and he is followed by Navarre, Natalis Alexander, Concina, Bossius, Sylvester, Henriquez, Ledesma and Sanchez- They prove this by the authority of many holy fathers. Again they prove this by reason, since, although the remedy of concupiscence is even a dignified end of matrimony, still the primary end is the procreation of children, whence it is against the order of reason that a secondary end should be chosen over a primary.
But the second opinion, not less common nor less probable, denies one sins in any way. One contracting in this manner does not exclude the end of procreating children. Thus Palau, Roncaglia, Croix, Holzmann, Bossius, Salmant., Koninck, Dicastillo, Pontius, Peter Soto, Gabriel, Almaino, Covarruvias, etc. And again Cajetan, Major, Durandus, Richard, Palacios, Sá, Medina, Philiarchus, Angles, Perez, Ugolinus, etc, with Sanchez. (and they say this of spouses, asserting the same of spouses who copulate principally for sedating concupiscence.) The reason for this opinion is, since matrimony is instituted by God, not only for the procreation of offspring, but also for the remedy of concupiscence, as is proved by the Apostle 1 Cor. 7:2, where he says: Because of fornication...., one should have his wife, and she should have her husband.
Nevertheless, St. Thomas answers this text (S. Th Suppl q. 49 a. 5 ad 2) thus saying "If anyone intends by the act of matrimony to avoid fornication on the part of his spouse, this is not a sin; since this is a certain rendering of the debt...But if he intends to avoid fornication in himself, thus there is in that something superfluous and according to this it is a venial sin, neither is marriage instituted for this, except according to indulgence which concerns venial sins."---
But with the pardon of such a Doctor (whose opinions I studiously bow down to in the rest of matters), the interpretation of St. John Chrysostom seems rather more appropriate, whose words I will offer soon below, and which is followed by Estius, Salmeron, and Cornelius: namely, that "because of fornication" is not undersood of avoiding the fornication of one's spouse, but of oneself. And this seems to be born from the context of the same Apostle where he says: "It is good for man to not touch woman, but because of fornication any which should have his wife and anywhich her husband." See how the Apostle present a counsel to men to abstain from touching women. But if they are in danger of incontinence, lest they fall into fornication, he permits not only a remedy, but urges it, saying "any one should have his wife." And although he adds "But I say this according to indulgence, not according to comman." still it advances that for them who are not incontinent, he only permits them to marry, when he says "I say to those not married and widows: it is goodfor them to remain thus, just as I am also." Neither does "indulgence" here import permission for venial fault; for truly, as Pontius says with Estius, Salmerone and Cornelius, I would not dare to grant leave for sinning lightly, but rather to permit what is licit.
August 30 at 12:45am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Note how when he disagree with St. Thomas, he feels the need to list every one else who does over and over....
August 30 at 12:45am · Unlike · 6
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Joshua Kenz I will post the rest, including his quoting the Father referred above a little later
August 30 at 12:46am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I hope The Peregrine is OK. He's obviously NOT in some ways, but I hope somehow the Thread contributed to his and his family's good.
August 30 at 12:48am · Edited · Unlike · 8
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John Ruplinger Perhaps I can put it another way. In every age the Church has slackened discipline. We are pretty pathetic both as to our love of God and our governance of our appetites.
August 30 at 12:47am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes -- I hope he is ok too. Not so sure anything contributed toward his good - but people tried
August 30 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz What does it say about me that I drove 500 miles today and still had thought to lug Liguori with me? I know....NERD!!!!!
August 30 at 12:49am · Edited · Unlike · 11
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Matthew J. Peterson It says great things about you.
August 30 at 12:51am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I do stuff like that too. Those are the things that stick in my craw. So maybe not so great. But we like it.
August 30 at 1:57am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger THANKS, Joshua. That is helpful. Much interesting stuff in there. It also seems to confirm something i have have been pondering. And i really love Liguori.
August 30 at 1:17am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sequitur to the 882 above
Now since the Divine Paul recalls his sermon to those who are in danger of incontinence, he does not only permit but als absolutely exhorts them to marriage, saying "But if they do not contain themselves, they ought to marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt." For "nubant" more truthfully imports exhortation than permission-- This is well confirmed from this that the Aposle says in the same place, where speaking of spouses, he writes: "Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency." If, therefore, it is permitted for spouses to request the debt for the avoidance of incontinence, it will be permitted also for the same end to enter marriage.
Hence St. John Chrysostom, explaining the text of the Apostle, says that one of the reasons why God instituted marriage was to avoid incontinence--- Behold his words "What, therefore, was the reason for marriage? And why was it given by God? Hear what Paul says": for the avoiding of adulteries, everyone should have his wife, etc "That we should avoid adultery, lest we be consumed by concupiscence..., securing a wife of one's own, he conveys to us marriage, here its fruit, this hence its profit..., in this it belongs to those seeking marriage to be helped toward leading a life chastely.." Thus the holy Doctor.
To the authorities of the Holy Fathers which are opposed, the author Petrocorensis answers that therefore the Fathers condemned spouses since they supposed them to follow the impetus of lust.
Now in answer to the reason for the contrary opinion, namely that it is a disorder to choose the secondary end over the primary, it is answered that it would certainly be a disorder, if the primary end were ordered to the secondary; but not if, from two licit ends the secondary is chosen before the primary--- Still, accidental and intrinsic ends of this sort (whether procreating offspring or avoiing incontinence), in order to be dignified, must be refered to God, if not actually, at least virtually or habitually; as is commonly handed down by Sanchez, Pontius, Bossius, Reginald, Villalbos, Filliuccio, etc.
August 30 at 1:24am · Like · 3
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John Hall Joshua Kenz what is the name of the text you are quoting and where is it available? Is it a particular moral manual by Ligouri?
August 30 at 1:26am · Like
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Joshua Kenz 883 addresses "extrinsic ends" such as marrying to avoid shame, to end strife, etc. And the same, mutandis mutandi, applies to the use of marriage.
My summation is this: it is sinful to subjugate more primary ends to less ones, as if they were ordered to them. Or to act for a reason repugnant to them. It is not a sin to act, consciously, for a licit end, while only intending the other ends habitually or virtually, just as in my gardening example, the intention to marry the girl is not thought of while I contend with fixing the mower, but it underlies my entire endeavor.
August 30 at 1:27am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Liguori's Passion and Glories of Mary are wonderful but his little book on Uniformity with Will of God was a Godsend. Neat anecdote that loved listening to it near his end (blind) and didnt realize it was his. He suffered a lot at the end.
August 30 at 1:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz This is from his massive Theologia Moralis. All passages from the 4th volume, book 6, tractatus 6, cap 2. Dubia 1 &2, I posted sections 927 and then 882 which was referenced by it
You can find it if you look really hard through used and rare books. TAC I think had a single copy in the rare books room
August 30 at 1:31am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger thanks again. The part on strife is interesting too.
August 30 at 1:34am · Like
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John Hall Thanks much! for reference, these look like google-books editions of the latin:
August 30 at 1:35am · Like
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John Hall http://www.fisheaters.com/forums/index.php?topic=3193418.0
Theologia Moralis [Latin] by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
Theologia Moralis [Latin] by St. Alphonsus de Liguori
FISHEATERS.COM
August 30 at 1:35am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Of the Latin? Is there any other (those translations above were all my own! AFAIK not published in English...)
August 30 at 1:37am · Like · 2
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John Hall oh no I didn't mean to imply that there is a secret English version in my back pocket
August 30 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The edition I have is from 1954, it is organized into 4 volumes....I think what I was quoting is volume 7 of what you linked
August 30 at 1:39am · Like · 2
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John Hall cool.
Looks like B&N sells a paperback version of at least the first two volumes:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/.../theologia.../1114630853...
Theologia Moralis, Volumes 1-2
Available in: Paperback. FREE SHIPPING on orders of $25 or more. Theologia Moralis, Volumes 1-2 by Saint...
BARNESANDNOBLE.COM
August 30 at 1:40am · Like
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John Ruplinger What is meamt by "refered to God"
August 30 at 1:45am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Warning: In this section he raises some very explicit questions and answers. E.g. (to be less explicit) on irrumatio and other indebita vasa
August 30 at 1:41am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Ah, Mr. Hall looks like a self-publishing sort of thing, sort of how Lagrange's "Reality" was published via Lulu....interesting. I guess that helps make these rare books available again!
August 30 at 1:43am · Like · 2
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John Hall I guess these internets are good for something after all!
August 30 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Ruplinger, isn't it no more than with all acts of Christians, that they must be referred to God, as to our final end?
August 30 at 1:44am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird John Hall: of course the internet is good for something. It gave birth to this thread, did it not?
August 30 at 1:46am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger That makes sense. I thought it meant to pray to God.
August 30 at 1:48am · Like
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, I did a quick count in my head: I have approx 96 volumes of just moral theology (not counting general works that include it, the Summa, etc). If I am not lazy, I am fairly certain I can find just about any question address by moralists, at least before 1970....without leaving my home! It is more comprehensive than Google I find!
August 30 at 1:52am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Actually make that 97...but does Jone, OFM count....He was the one who had the chart for calculating the "true midnight" for fasting (rather than those modernist time zones)
August 30 at 1:54am · Like · 3
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John Hall Are you going to be working as a moral theologian professionally?
August 30 at 1:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger true midnight. That's great.
August 30 at 1:56am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua of course Jone counts; I own him too
August 30 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz John Hall Nope! Have you ever read those dreary things? I tend to find the field, as such, to be a swamp of error.
The moralists are fundamentally flawed because of an exaggerated and wrong view of conscience. Compare St. Thomas, he focuses on Prudence, conscience is a very minor element, as it is in reality. Pinckaers recognized this problem, as did Ralph McIrnerny though at least the former ignored the exceptions over the last 400 years, mostly Thomists that were not writing specifically as moralists and protestant (Reformed) theologians who followed Thomas closely in many areas here
Liguori, frankly, is the only real causist that is worthwhile, and that is because his equiprobabilism gives a backdoor (as seen in 883) for arguments of virtue and natural law, and scripture. But even he does the "just list the authorities on either side" and the "case studies for everything" a bit too much
Dr. Lamont from the Catholic Institute of Sydney wrote a great article, called Conscience, Freedom, Rights: Idols of the Enlightenment Religion. In the Thomist no. 73 (2009)
He states: "This wholesale dismissal of four hundred years of Catholic moral theology perhaps requires some defence. One might ask the general question why, if moralities of conscience are as bad as all that, it was possible for the Church, guided as she is by the Holy Spirit, to go so far wrong for so long? And one may ask the particular question how the Church could have canonized St. Alphonsus Liguori, declared him a Doctor, and officially taught that his solutions to moral questions were safe to follow? Saint Alphonsus, after all, worked within the framework of moralities of conscience. If such moralities are wrong, his approach must be wrong, and he should not have been given this endorsement.
The answer to the question about St. Alphonsus is that his approach of equiprobabilism, by requiring that one begin by determining whether command or freedom should be treated as in possession, allowed reasoning about the actual moral issue to return to moral reflection through the back door. Partly as a result, his personal solutions to moral dilemmas were distinguished by good judgment. The answer to the question about moralities of conscience in general is that a key component of them, the casuistic method, could in fact be made to serve some useful purposes."
I do recommend that whole article....it articulated nicely the thoughts that had been forming, but not yet articulated, through my own reading of the tradition.
August 30 at 2:11am · Edited · Like · 7
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Joshua Kenz To be fair, I exaggerate a bit...but only a bit...
August 30 at 2:12am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua I agree. Thankfully the Protestant casuists got Thomas right; vide Kelly, "Conscience, Dictator or Guide?" which shows this. Sanderson and Taylor are fantastic, with none of the legalism of the indeed dreary post-Trid RC tradition
August 30 at 2:12am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Kelly by the way is Roman Catholic himself
August 30 at 2:13am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Where may one find that article?
Here is Lamont's btw (loaded it up)
https://docs.google.com/.../0B3j1qptMEOqndXVUTnc1.../edit...
Conscience-freedom-rights.pdf - Google Drive
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
August 30 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Pinckaers is kind of a sneak in not letting his readers know that the Protestant casuists got Thomas right
August 30 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and thanks for the Lamont!
August 30 at 2:16am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh, Kelly's is a book....hmm...another book for my already too big till I get a place of my own library or a fungible good, like gunpowder for reloading bullets....dilemmas, dilemmas...
August 30 at 2:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Outstanding texts, Joshua. And yes, you are a nerd.
August 30 at 2:35am · Like
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Joshua Kenz On a more important note, Marina Shea, Spike is totally better than Angel, though Angel, I think, is a better series than Buffy (especially after they made Willow a lesbian)
August 30 at 2:51am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Which they also did to Buffy in the season 8 comics, because yay perversity-diversity
August 30 at 2:51am · Like · 2
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Marina Shea The facts revealed in this thread never cease to amaze me.
August 30 at 2:51am · Like · 4
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Ryan Penn Joshua, thanks for the Lamont as well, as I too will download it. The Kelly is a worthy add, but then so is the gunpowder. And if you ever reload your way into an excess of .308, I'll buy some off you so you can turn that cash into the book. No dilemma, then!
August 30 at 3:01am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The real question is who is more annoying, Lesbo-Willow with her emoting, or Conor (the actor behind whom is also annoying in Mad Men). I find it apropos that they actually changed reality to get rid of Conor....
August 30 at 2:55am · Edited · Like
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Marina Shea I haven't seen Conor yet
August 30 at 3:00am · Like
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Megan Baird Conner is in Angel - the spin off of Buffy. I detest Conner, so annoying. I do agree that Willow gets annoying in later series - but not necessarily due to the lesbianism. It's more of her willful trampling over the feelings of others and her unbridled arrogance. She's the worst in season 6, slightly better in season 7.
August 30 at 3:20am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am now lost.
August 30 at 4:14am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Answering Joel's Q from a ways above on the Friday Night lecture on why separated souls are not persons: it was by John O'Callaghan, and was later published here: http://books.google.at/books?id=rKGz2R0GiIIC&lpg=PA100...
Aquinas the Augustinian
The influence Of St Augustine's thought upon that of St Thomas Aquinas is well known. With the exception of...
BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT
August 30 at 5:10am · Edited · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Also my prediction on how the next round of NFP discussion will go: first Wendy Irene will join the thread and shed such a luminous light of good sense on the Q that for a moment even Big Angry Daniel and Samantha will agree, but this momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about 'Ecological breastfeeding' or something.
August 30 at 5:04am · Edited · Like · 3
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Thomas Hall 'Which they also did to Buffy in the season 8 comics, because yay perversity-diversity' - Joshua, I did *not* need to know that.
August 30 at 5:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund, I would like to point out that I really never had a position that I argued for, other than saying "such and such" seems to be what the Scriptures and the Fathers would hold.
August 30 at 7:17am · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson: you should go to TAC.
August 30 at 7:21am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I hope I at least disabused you of the way Scriptures part of your claim
August 30 at 7:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We never go to finish, sadly, Samantha.
August 30 at 7:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Despite your valiant attempts.
August 30 at 7:49am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund's prediction sounds nice
August 30 at 7:49am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dan, remember that time we agreed about Creon? That was nice too
August 30 at 7:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz did you come down on a side of this debate (that I never really intended to begin).
August 30 at 7:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I also remember calling you a fascist. Not my proudest moment, to be sure.
August 30 at 7:51am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Was that because I was against everything and not for anything? Or to do with being pro Creon?
August 30 at 7:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The former.
August 30 at 7:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman T'was neither politic, nor fair... but that my describe most of my later teen years.
August 30 at 7:57am · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, mine too. Possibly also my later twenties. I'm sure by my later thirties I'll have learned some policy and fairness though
August 30 at 8:00am · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger btw: i assume the reason that the reason for refraining from conjugal acts while a woman is breastfeeding is that it is generally an infertile period. That conforms to Samantha's thesis that woman are baby factories which is what sex is for (Cf. # 5,342.5)
August 30 at 8:48am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Breastfeeding is nature's way of "spacing" children, a vastly superior way than NFP. While it is the role of art to perfect nature, nevertheless art must follow nature. Sadly, that is not the case when a couple falls prey to the temptation to rationalize the need for "planning" their children.
August 30 at 8:52am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger [I used to be ambivalent but have seen the ill effect.] And I have a "real apprehension" that Harry Potter is from hell. Heads spun and all that; it was scary. I wont argue since reason does not prevail on the issue. Also first hand testimony from exorcists should give pause. Way too much wrong with HP.
August 30 at 9:02am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, the whole "breastfeeding is natures way of 'spacing' children" does not work universally. My wife exclusively breastfed and she gave birth to our second less than a year after the first. <<Bubble Pop>>
August 30 at 8:57am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you probably won't learn policy and fairness.... you went to TAC and are an arrogant grad.
August 30 at 8:58am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger generally though. And we have one exception.
August 30 at 8:58am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Fallen nature defies total compliance with universal principles, but the principles are still universal.
August 30 at 8:59am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, nature is pretty unreliable about spacing children. I'm pretty certain nature wants me to have waaaaaay more children than I could handle while retaining my sanity
August 30 at 8:59am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond We are often not the best judges in our own cases. That is why, if I am not mistaken, NFPers should seek spiritual direction.
August 30 at 9:01am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman ^I agree.
August 30 at 9:01am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond In any event, I would say nature is pretty reliable when it comes to spacing children. Otherwise we would not call it natural. Exceptions prove the rule.
August 30 at 9:03am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe That sounds circular Jeffrey
August 30 at 9:05am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia when we had three in diapers at the same time, and my wife exclusively breastfed.....yeah spacing
August 30 at 9:06am · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews oh. yeah. No. Especially in first world countries where nutrition is better so the body doesn't have to work too hard to keep both mom and baby alive. Any NFP group out there will show you the naturally occurring spacing is......very short. And not predictable.
August 30 at 9:06am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond How so? Whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by chance. We don't have to establish that there is nature; it is self-evident.
August 30 at 9:06am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia certainly, Jeffrey, but there are other factors than just breastfeeding, sleeping habits and as Bekah pointed out, nutrition contribute to the time period
August 30 at 9:09am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Isn't it generally the first world folks who, by any objective standard, are less in need of NFP but who have rationalized it to maintain a certain standard of living? The NFP groups have an agenda.
August 30 at 9:09am · Like · 3
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Franklin Salazar --
Pater Edmund writes : "this momentary agreement will then be dissipated when Franklin Salazar comes in and infuriates half of the thread with some theory about 'Ecological breastfeeding' or something."
Not theory. I simply write it like it is, and most Catholics don't like reading it for the simple reason that people typically don't enjoy having their most precious ox gored.
For instance, NFP is not natural as in the natural method of spacing babies that God intended, but is instead naturally medicinal caused by a disorder in society, and as opposed to correcting their culture caused disorder they promote a medicinal bandage mistaking its purpose for being what it is not.
NFP types don't like reading that the most common way NFP is promoted is disordered. But then again on the flip side, neither do the super sized catholic family promoters like reading that far from being a mark of the Faith, their super sized families are likewise a sign of disorder.
And so yes, I do on occasion infuriate people, but hopefully I also help them see past themselves. But I would hope for better from TACers who spent years in class practicing being wrong and politely taking it.
http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../nfp-is...
http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../supersi...
Catholic Culture and Society: NFP is harmful to a marriage.
This blog is about : Organic Catholicism. . . . . Organic Catholicism is at human scale. It's eminently practical, and simple. . . . . It's back to nature, as in back to our nature. It looks at the world around us according to our nature, which in turn is to look at the world simply . . . . . . . .…
CATHOLICCULTUREANDSOCIETY.BLOGSPOT.COM
August 30 at 11:19am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia that may be true in some cases, but because continence is abused doesn't make the method in itself immoral
August 30 at 9:10am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No one has said the method itself is immoral. But the method is readily an occasion for self-centered judgment about one's needs.
August 30 at 9:11am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger [I am not judging btw but am concerned with principle. The burden is serious and our society makes it very hard. The culture in profound ways works against normal, viz. nature. ]
August 30 at 9:12am · Like
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Michael Beitia which means that one needs good spiritual direction
August 30 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Uh. No again. I'm a first world gal. And I cannot have children ten months apart. Which my body seems to think I should do. But then again, my body also thinks I should have pre eclampsia every pregnancy. And my conscience thinks I should homeschool my kids. So , yeah. Not about the standard of living. And again. Visit any NFP group, lots on facebook. I challenge you to find one person who is practicing it to maintain a standard of living.
August 30 at 9:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey, I'll concede whatever point you're making about nature, if you'll concede that breastfeeding very often gives an extremely short space or even no space at all between pregnancies
August 30 at 9:13am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond How do you concede a point that is categorized as "whatever point you're making"?
August 30 at 9:14am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mostly I mean I will stop trying to argue with it, which I would like to do since it doesn't seem germain.
August 30 at 9:15am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe germane?
August 30 at 9:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Germane.
August 30 at 9:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is true that nature acts always or for the most part, but it is also true that art perfects nature.
What is further true is that when evaluating moral circumstances one is always dealing with particulars and never abstractions. Consequently, universals often break down in their application.
This is why it is helpful to have a Spiritual adivsor in such matters.
August 30 at 9:15am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Samantha:
http://images5.fanpop.com/.../jermaine-jermaine-jackson...?
IMAGES5.FANPOP.COM
August 30 at 9:15am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, him.
August 30 at 9:16am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed. As for art perfecting nature, that art must still follow nature, i.e., take its bearings from nature. Art cannot establish an end apart from nature.
August 30 at 9:17am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Thus the "perfects" part.
August 30 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I cannot prove that standard of living is a cause for folks misusing NFP, nor can the contrary be demonstrated. But I can look in my own heart, and listen to the concerns of others expressing what is in theirs, and then realize that maintaining a certain standard of living is a great temptation. To flat out deny that this is a temptation for NFPers seems mistaken given my admittedly limited experience on this earth.
August 30 at 9:20am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia as far as standard of living goes, here in the greater Chicago area I could live in less expensive neighborhoods, but I have an obligation not only to produce children, but to keep them safe and to educate them. Consequently, the must higher cost of living is for the sake of the children too.
August 30 at 9:23am · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it is prima facie at least implausible that anyone who takes the Catholic Church seriously enough to exclusively use a rather unreliable and in any case somewhat onerous method like NFP is in it to maintain a consumerist lifestyle
August 30 at 9:26am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The main standard of living I want to maintain, is one where I'm not losing my mind and all my hair from stress
August 30 at 9:25am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Understood. I cannot judge your case Michael, nor anyone else's unless they set it before me in all its particulars and ask me to help them discern what's right. So I am merely noting that maintaining a certain standard of living is a temptation for NFPers. Not a terribly controversial point, I think.
August 30 at 9:25am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews I have moved from being dismayed to alarmed over the years at how many people assume Catholics trying to live their vocation according to Church teaching are assumed to have weak or selfish motives. Rather than assuming they are making the choices they are enlightened by the grace of the sacrament of matrimony. NFP is freakin' hard. If you want to have a cushy lifestyle, and that's your primary motivation, you're not going to use NFP to get there.
August 30 at 9:26am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes, but that "certain standard of living" can easily be just
August 30 at 9:26am · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Maintaining a certain standard of living.....what does that mean? And how is this particular temptation unique to NFPers?
August 30 at 9:27am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah! Especially when you're not even 100% convinced by the Church's arguments against ABC anyway
August 30 at 9:27am · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz reading on my phone makes jumping around in the thread difficult. Could you recap the Liguori and the condemnation thingy for me?
August 30 at 9:37am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I just want to leave my mansion in the gated community, take the top down on my bentely and buy designer clothes for my kids. Is that so wrong?
August 30 at 9:28am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps the overall point in all of this, Jeffery, is that one must be very careful how one phrases the sorts of universals that your are forwarding.
August 30 at 9:28am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The temperature has finally dropped below 95, so I'm off for a run to help maintain my decadent standard of living. See ya!
August 30 at 9:29am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Must run to the post office to maintain my very low standard of living, but will happily return to this when I can.
August 30 at 9:29am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman My point would be that, even though NFP may be used poorly, its still better than ABC, and can still be a means to perfection.
August 30 at 9:30am · Like
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John Ruplinger [Salazar points to some of the underlying problem which is the main cause for Samantha's hair loss and is not caused by the nature of too closely spaced kids per se. The culture is anti physin. The anxiety is not normal but caused by extrinsic disorders.]
August 30 at 9:31am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, I suppose I could tone my life-style down a bit:
August 30 at 9:32am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman All mothers should have household servants.
August 30 at 9:32am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia that's what older children are for
August 30 at 9:32am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Not good enough.
August 30 at 9:33am · Like
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Michael Beitia my oldest is the perfect servant. Woke up to a nice fresh pot of coffee this morning
August 30 at 9:33am · Like · 6
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Brian Gerrity My kids fall woefully short as servants which is probably the fault of the master.
August 30 at 9:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my oldest used to get up with the youngest and change his diaper before anyone else got up, then make coffee. Raise 'em right!
August 30 at 9:35am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I've said it before, and I will say it again:
August 30 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I have a hard time when we compare ourselves today to those of say my great grandparents who raised ten kids on what they grew on the land. It's almost like when we complain we have so much to do and so little time and yet we have machines that wash our clothes and out dishes. Cost of living has gone up, yes, but we do pay significantly less percentage of our budget wise for food and clothing. Also, with regards to the natural spacing, it really does depend on the woman. Ok... I had more thoughts... But pregnancy brain killed them... Oh right!
Also oftentimes God knows what is best. I read an article by someone who's husband had cancer so they decided to avoid pregnancy... They got pregnant anyways and it was the best thing that happened because it have them someone/something else to focus on. God won't give you more than you can handle, though he may try to test your patience and trust
August 30 at 9:35am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia no my oldest is great.
August 30 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Michael, is your oldest a girl?
August 30 at 9:36am · Like
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Michael Beitia no.
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Daniel Lendman Lauren,that was sexist.
August 30 at 9:37am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia thank heavens
August 30 at 9:37am · Unlike · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wow! You're really Doing something right then!
August 30 at 9:37am · Like
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John Ruplinger AND to add to Michael's point the hardest time is the firsu three in diapers. It actually gets easier after that (just dont tell my wife that )
August 30 at 9:37am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia not me. I claim credit for nothing
August 30 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Lauren, that's twice!
August 30 at 9:37am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Lauren, also sexist. My daughter is the least useful of the older 3
August 30 at 9:38am · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia (also the youngest of the 3)
August 30 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick I must just have bad examples of raising boys well
August 30 at 9:41am · Like
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John Ruplinger Out of the city in the country the natural order is more discernable.
August 30 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In general, I find it very dangerous and unprofitable to tell good Christian mothers what they should or should not do. Circumstances vary too greatly.
I started this whole cancerous NFP discussion, I know. But my interests were purely speculative.
Again, even if people are mis-using NFP, the fact that they care about that at all is a huge improvement over the status quo, and will surely lead them to further graces. This is not the battle we need to fight.
August 30 at 9:45am · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger [btw Pater Edmund is the ultimate troll. Did anyone see him pop in, throw that fiery cocktail and run?]
August 30 at 10:03am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF Who is this person, and what has he done with Daniel Lendman? Venial Sin, not a big deal? No need to tell others what to do?
August 30 at 9:47am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well we could do a better job teaching the just and serious reasons to avoid instead of teaching it as a simple alternative to contraception...
August 30 at 9:50am · Like · 2
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John Boyer I wake up and the convo is still sex? Y'all have dirty minds.
August 30 at 9:55am · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger Dangerous, Daniel, indeed as if this thread weren' testimony enough. Of course after 15 years, I still haven't figured out how not to tell a certain Maureen O' Hara - did i say that - what to do.
August 30 at 10:06am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John, you have no idea.
August 30 at 10:09am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel, hardship has tempered me from what I was in my fiery youth.
August 30 at 10:10am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman In seriousness, though: In general, one ought not to try to root out every habitual venial sin all at once. This is almost always too much and often very harmful.
August 30 at 10:11am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Plus, venial sins are very common..
August 30 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Lauren Ogrodnick, I think that is true, but I also think that our catechesis and evangelization need to acknowledge that we live in a post-Christian society.
August 30 at 10:15am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I would rather people abuse NFP than be pushed away from the Church altogether.
August 30 at 10:16am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews My experience says that those who use NFP tend to be drawn closer to the Church. Self sacrifice will do that. NFP is hard enough that those who might "abuse" it more than likely will cease, as your motivations for continuing to deny yourself are strongest when you know it is for the family's benefit.
August 30 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe John Ruplinger-- I am amazed at your willingness to state what the casue of my hair loss is with such certainty.
August 30 at 10:29am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As a matter of fact, you are quite wrong. I do pretty well once my babies are born, but pregnancy ruins me. Unfortunately no number of servants can fix that.
August 30 at 10:30am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I have actually not lost my hair, btw. That was sort of a figure of speech.
August 30 at 10:33am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i figured.
August 30 at 10:39am · Like
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John Ruplinger And i didn't specify the causes (doing so might really heat things up. But the culture is anti physin. Bearing children is heroic, moreso for some women but our society adds so many anxieties, so few reliefs. That is all.)
August 30 at 10:44am · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews You need to keep in mind, bearing children....that's the first part. Of an minimum eighteen year commitment. A commitment to educating them and forming them with love and patience.
August 30 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i was just responding to Samantha's point, very valid.
August 30 at 10:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I have changed my profile picture to one which proves I still have hair.
August 30 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Because I am vain.
August 30 at 10:56am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe One of the venial sins I should be more concerned about than anything to do with NFP.
August 30 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am a little saddened at the fact that my Willow meme above has been so neglected.
August 30 at 11:11am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger what is Willow? Buffy?
August 30 at 11:27am · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Top o' the mornin'!
August 30 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Samantha I've expanded my "probably horrible post" into an essay which you can read on google docs: https://docs.google.com/.../1RTeD.../edit...
Have I mentioned that I think it admirable that you are against contraception even though as a Protestant you don't see the argument from infallible authority against it? Because I do think it admirable.
Natures as Words, Contraception as Lying - Google Docs
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
August 30 at 11:34am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman If this conversation is dying we could always talk about the War of Northern Aggression, or something similarly uncontroversial.
August 30 at 11:50am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Ford > Chevy discuss
August 30 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger How about the southern rebellion instead? [Or which Leviathan would you fight for 8 score years later? ]
August 30 at 12:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Fine, I guess I will actually read it. I'm at the playground now though. Still suspect it is probably horrible but thanks for your kindness
August 30 at 11:58am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia alright, I've got to clear up some thoughts about Harry Potter (garbage though it may be)
1) you're either born magical, or not. No special gnosis
2) it is a "natural talent" in the book that needs honing like any other natural talent
now let's consider another popular movie series, X-Men (garbage though it may be)
1) you're either born mutant, or you're not, no special gnosis
2) it is a "natural talent" in the series that needs special honing, like any other natural talent, hence Xavier's school
I hear rants against HP but not X-Men. why? is it simply the word "magic". Call them mutants instead and you have the same result
August 30 at 12:14pm · Like · 3
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Wendy Irene Well, how can I refuse an invitation from you, Pater Edmund? Although even you cannot make me read quite all the previous comments.
August 30 at 12:21pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger To Father: the analogy fails it seems or I don't understand. Does thwarting procreation correspond to avoiding unjust death (in the case of Athanatius? Or what is being compared?)
August 30 at 12:23pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Apropos of the "when is it OK to have marital relations" discussion, I think it's helpful to remember that the marriage union is, of its nature, "the sort of union which is ordered to children (both bringing them to being and raising them to be good adults, i.e., procreation and education)." And also, to remember that it is good for children for their parents to be united. So, engaging in marital relations even at infertile times, by uniting the spouses, is not "merely" unitive, but secondarily procreative because it promotes good circumstances for the education (in the broad sense) of the children. Any time you're talking about the unitive in marriage, it's going to be referred to procreative -- because that's precisely the kind of unity you get in marriage (qua marriage) (did you notice that I used qua? )
August 30 at 12:33pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Kunz When Mr. Smith Goes to TACshington: filibustering to prove a point... a sadly forgotten art... The Constitution of the United States:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
Section. 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.
No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.
The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
Section. 3.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof, for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.
Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.
No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.
The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.
The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Section. 4.
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.
Section. 5.
Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.
Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.
Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.
August 30 at 12:31pm · Like
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Wendy Irene (I grant, of course, that that kind of union (marriage, i.e. a union ordered to procreation & education of children) is perfected by other kinds of union, such as charity and friendship. But they are not the essence of marriage, but rather something from the outside needed to make it the best it can be. It's something like a...say...flower planting club. What makes it a f. p. club is the members get together to plant flowers. They could hate each other and still be a club. But they'll be a really good club if they are friends and love each other with charity.)
August 30 at 12:39pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele why is the constitution...ok, never mind.
August 30 at 12:39pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Michael, I have mostly forgot X-Men and dont remember its insights or what virtues it promotes or how it makes more reasonable the imagination, once called the mad woman of the house in more 'bigoted' times, but no kids go out to buy or search online a how to be a mutant book.
August 30 at 12:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia in HP you can't "become" a witch.
August 30 at 12:42pm · Like
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Wendy Irene These mashed potatoes are so creamy.
August 30 at 12:45pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Caesar Romero was tall.
August 30 at 12:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is tall in the category of "relation" or in "quality"?
August 30 at 12:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Ryan Burke John, filibustering is somewhat less impressive when you can cut and paste.
August 30 at 12:47pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I think we're all just treading water until Pope Bonbon comes back
August 30 at 12:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and what are the other effects on youth from reading HP again and again sometimes: read HP I. Do not the main protagonists not only go unpunished but even prevail by breaking rules (magic irl). What are the differences in character among the various adherents to different school? Does any one else notice how Baconian the characters are in their attitude of dominance over nature (and remember Bacon commended study of the occult arts in his New Atlantis)? . . . .
August 30 at 12:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger mb, irl one can.
August 30 at 12:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can I just say, before I go off to read Pater Edmund's probably horrible piece, that anyone who reads HP and then decides they would like to become a witch is a bad reader, which is not JK Rowling's fault.
August 30 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You're right, it's totally Baconian. Burn them all.
August 30 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Kunz except Ryan Burke- apparently FB has limits to the length of texts.. so... it actually took an hour to get it all formatted to fit into little pieces... I couldn't even do one article at a time... however, unfortunately the subtlety in my argument was missed...
August 30 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger so BLAME the misformed kids who do. . . nice
August 30 at 12:57pm · Like
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Megan Baird Except for the part where Dumbledore rewards Neville for standing up to his friends when those friends were going to do something they weren't supposed to do.
August 30 at 12:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Ryan Burke I sadly missed the original Harry Potter discussion, but will just say that all the arguments against Harry Potter I've ever heard have been ridiculous, so I assume the ones here were too. "Baconian" indeed.
August 30 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I think we have larger battles to fight than ones over Harry Potter.
August 30 at 1:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I personally doubt that such kids exist, John, but if they do, then their problems are not JK Rowling's fault.
August 30 at 1:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I blame their parents, public schools, etc
August 30 at 1:00pm · Like
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Ryan Burke Similarly, Jonn, those who take away from HP "no rules are important" (whose existence would need to be proven since that is clearly not the point) are also very bad readers, not readers of bad books.
August 30 at 1:02pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger its interesting there is one blog dedicated to the occult in society by an atheist who demonstrates that influence of HP. He argued against kids reading it without parental guidance. Noteworthy is that his interest lead him to join an occult society that he didnt see as harmful. His own wife was led to witchcraft because of her love of HP. But for them it was ok being their own choice. Yet they wouldnt let their kids read it bc they recognized the unwitting influence.
August 30 at 1:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, it is interesting that there are crazy people in the world. I agree.
August 30 at 1:06pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Harry Potter sucks?
August 30 at 1:08pm · Unlike · 3
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Ryan Burke Not falling for it, Adrw Lng
August 30 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i only became belligerent on the topic when i was alarmed at how catholic parents would more zealously defend HP than the Bible. Before which i was ambivalent, but since, I have seen much worse.
August 30 at 1:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger so it doesn't effect you or your kids in any way. That is good but why so zealous a defense of what is at best amusement or candy as several said?
August 30 at 1:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm ambivalent. Like I said, there's a huge crossover with X-Men, but sub "mutant" for "magic". X-Men are pretty Machiavellian, as is HP.
I keep saying it is crap.
BUt .... it does offer talking points as to why might doesn't make right, or why it isn't okay to do bad things even if the end is to be sought after.
August 30 at 1:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the more important thing is to TALK to you children about what they're reading, regardless of what it is (unless totally inappropriate).
August 30 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe It is a candy of which I am particularly fond.
August 30 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You should see what happens if you attack chocolate.
August 30 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I prefer salty snacks to sweet
August 30 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Chocolate is meh?
August 30 at 1:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael. I thought you were my friend.
August 30 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'd prefer tortilla chips and salsa any day of the week.
Plus I like my snacking with beer, and that more includes the salty
August 30 at 1:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia because as Thomas says, it is the moisture and the heat which produces the sweet.
August 30 at 1:21pm · Like
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Ryan Burke I agree that the Bible is superior to Harry Potter.
August 30 at 1:22pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia IDK, the Bible has lots of sex in it (JOKE)
August 30 at 1:22pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Harry Potter is not "occult"; "magic" in the HP cycle is a trope for "old liberal arts/learning", and "Muggledom" is technocratized society. The rest of it is just typical YA book plot
August 30 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger There is some clever candy that is fascinating. If it were complete crap none would defend it (although i am not so sure anymore)
August 30 at 1:25pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I am old enough to remember when churches had their undies all up in a knot over Dungeons and Dragons, so I've seen this before
August 30 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I don't defend it from just claims of being mind candy. But I think it is worse to accuse something of being more than it is
August 30 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I've read 2 or 3 HP books, and it is badly written derivative drivel. I'm always amazed the books have such intelligent defenders. But the criticisms (other than that it is crap writing and lazy uninspired storytelling) are even stupider.
August 30 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sorry Samantha Cohoe.
August 30 at 1:27pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm not defending it against anything other than charges of being gateway into Evil
August 30 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante like I said, its mostly just typical YA stuff
August 30 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF,
No problem. In 1679 the Holy Office condemned a series of proposition which included that idea that you could eat solely for pleasure, as long as it wasn't against health, and have marital relations solely for pleasure. The upshot is that either is at least venially sinful
Liguori argues that marrying or having marital relations for the sake of secondary ends (like remedying concupiscence) or even external and accidental ends (ending strife) is not sinful, and he argues it doesn't disorder the ends, because choosing to do X for a licit end does not necessarily means subordinating a higher end to that end. Nor does it mean excluding that higher end, just as with merit, the intention to direct the act toward God need not be consciously made at all times, but can be virtually present.
He even argues that, in grave cases, one may even have a certain affect, a hope if you will, that this act of relations will not produce children.
I was trying to address Big Angry's "it is probably venially sinful" position. Liguori recognizes that the Fathers, and in an attenuated way St. Thomas holds this, so he goes at greater lengths than normal (while pointing out that he bows down to St. Thomas as an authority...obsequi is the verb there) to argue the contrary position, relying on another Father and reason I think he succeeds.
So if a husband or wife is moved, in this instance, because of libido, toward requesting the debt, that is no sin, as long as they do not will or act in a way repugnant to the more primary ends of marriage (like procreating).
August 30 at 1:29pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I just read Pater Edmund's excellent essay entitled "Natures as Words, Contraception as Lying." He persuasively argues that lying is to equivocation as contraception is to NFP. This analogy is very helpful to our discussion. After all, equivocation is not the norm; truth telling is. Likewise, NFP cannot be the norm; complete openness to new life is. Equivocation is tricky business. So too is NFP. I may well be misinterpreting the underlying assumptions of some of the comments made on this thread, but some seem to be arguing as if NFP is the norm because nature doesn't establish a standard and so we, who know better for ourselves, must do so. In this context it is worth thinking about Pater Edmund's claim that a false view of nature underlies the contraceptive mentality. I think he is right.
August 30 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia JAson, I don't think I want to be Elfstar anymore
August 30 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right but being Elfstar in D and D didn't lead to you being Sepulchrus the Batwinged, High Priest of Satan, in real life
August 30 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird It's not high literature by any means, so I agree with most of you. I disagree that HP is a portal into the occult. I strongly believe that anyone claiming that HP led them into the occult is being somewhat disingenuous. I'm thinking there were probably other contributing factors.
August 30 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia any opportunity to reference a Chick Tract
August 30 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think the net effect of HP on kids is to increase interest in learning Latin
August 30 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I'm tempted to go find that one Chick tract against dungeons and dragons, JA Escalante.
August 30 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
Dark Dungeons
Debbie thought playing Dungeons and Dragons was fun...until it destroyed her friend.
CHICK.COM
August 30 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The moral principle of imposing one's will upon nature to what ends we will pervades the Potter world (as Bacon's). But what of conforming one's mind and will to nature, not visa-versa? What of leisurely things is absent in Potter that is present in LOTR? Are the muggle world and that of Hogworts 2 sides of a coin?
August 30 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there you go Joel
August 30 at 1:34pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Let's compromise-- chocolate covered pretzels.
August 30 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I just ate some peanut M&Ms... breakfast of champions
August 30 at 1:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz, so you think Ligouri meshes with the 1679 commendation?
August 30 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante John that's an excellent question, but I think Rowling makes it clear that familial and friendly love is the only real "magic"; that's sort of the whole point of Harry vs Tom (Voldemort). She's not in favor of "white" instrumentalism of the sort you're talking about
August 30 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Iow, it's not a Baconian parable
August 30 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe As a Latin teacher, I can absolutely attest that the effect of Harry Potter in encouraging kids to learn Latin is real
August 30 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "I dont 'believe' it is a gateway to the occult." Are the exorcists lying? What is the argument?
August 30 at 1:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think the claim is that HP + (other) = interest in the occult. but it is the (other) that is the interest in the occult, not HP
August 30 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz How does this fit in with NFP? Well when NFP is used to avoid pregnancy, there is a certain affection that this act will not produce a child. To have this hope or desire, and not be, in intention, rejecting the end of procreation I think is the tricky part. Such as dieting and fasting both can involve abstaining from food, yet differ specifically in their object and not just by intention, abstinence in NFP differs objectively from abstinence for some other reason. The desire not to have children produced through these acts of marital intercourse is present in those acts, so it is not the abstaining, but the having sex in the context of avoidance that raises the issue.
I think if we combine Liguori and Langley (who is just echoing De Koninck), we can say this:
The ends of marriage must be present, at least virtually, in the marital act. This includes procreation. It need not be conscious. The sort of act that it is, without employing means to frustrate these ends in the act, includes as it were by default a procreative end (even in sterile couples, as even a blind eye is ordered to sight). The user of NFP, nevertheless, clearly does not intend the procreative end, in THIS act. Hw can he or she both virtually intend it, but actually not want it to happen? Well if the end is more than physical conception, but is rather the procreation and education of children then one can still intend that end, even in this act, while hoping that it will not produce yet another child.
Still, poverty, e.g., or even risk to the mother's life from pregnancy does not REQUIRE the use of NFP. What we are really saying is that, for the sake of the other ends of sex (satiating libido for one!), one may hope not to produce another child, as long as that affection, and hence the use of NFP, proceed for the sake of the higher ends of marriage, considered more completely outside of the marital act. Nevertheless, it remains morally licit to even intend children in poverty, or even at risk of health, since that it a natural and primary end of the act, and there can be no moral necessity to refer it to another end that is only lower or virtually contained in that end.
NB: My understanding is that if the act of sex itself is a proximate danger to life, then it is immoral to have sex. If it is a remote danger, e.g. wife has AIDS, the endangered person, the husband, is not obliged, but may do so for just cause, either for himself or his wife's sake.. Not sure how a risk of a risky pregnancy fits in.
August 30 at 1:42pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Joel, yes, yes I do...since it would not be "solely" for that end. He is basically arguing the other ends can be virtually present.
August 30 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Klein thought that alchemy and magic were twins at birth but one was stillborn. I dont agree. That is all.
August 30 at 1:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fair enough, John, I don't believe in either.
August 30 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Harry Potter and nfp.......clearly just to keep the thread alive.
August 30 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Ruplinger, is there a more reputable exorcist than Amorth condemning HP?
I say this because Amorth is notoriously full of it. If all the stories he says are true, he acts against the Church's discipline on exorcism habitually....he also must be exorcising multiple people at once all the time....there are a lot of issues with his credibility.
That said, I detest HP. I read part of the first book and tossed it out...it was evil. Not morally evil, but literary evil...tripe...but I am a snob like that
August 30 at 1:47pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I think Pater Edmund's analogy between equivocation and NFP fails because the relationship of speech to truth telling isn't the same as the sex's to reproduction.
August 30 at 1:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Every act of speech should be truthful, not every act of sex needs to be procreative
August 30 at 1:49pm · Like
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Ryan Burke Not every act of sex even could be procreative, as every act of speech could--and should-- be truthful
August 30 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia all analogies are lame... let's come up with a more substantive objection
August 30 at 1:51pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger me too, Joshua but I was roped into the debate. And i have first hand testimony i think though exorcists speak with caution and dont reveal they are such. That said i am convinced of the testimony. [To clarify: i dont know whether he was present at the incidents. But other matters he did testify to convinced me too.]
August 30 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger To JA, I never said it was a parable for Bacon.
August 30 at 1:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Marriage and sex as a whole need to be ordered to procreation (taken as generating *and* educating children), but to say that every act of sex needs to be ordered to procreation leads to some absurd conclusions and ignores all the other goods of sex.
August 30 at 1:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda surreal to have parallel discussions of NFP and Harry Potter
August 30 at 2:03pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger and 0 likes and that mb failed to follow my distinction and the paucity of response and the number of questions unanswered. Tis strange that an overpopular and well grounded opinion is so strongly held, so weakly defended.
August 30 at 2:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [bunch of comments disappeared]
August 30 at 2:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz http://youtu.be/shgQ3-OGmu4
Kick in the Head - New Riders of the Purple Sage
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 2:19pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sorry, just found that apropos..."I went to the college of evil, but the smoke really drove me away. "
August 30 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, not sure what you're referring to. But Sat. is my laundry folding day. Been in and out (from being next to a computer)
August 30 at 2:25pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Breaking out the morning coffee at 1423 EST
August 30 at 2:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as in, I'm not sure what distinction you wanted me to follow
August 30 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger magic is in the real world; mutants are not. Kids do live out theis HP fantasies. That is all.
August 30 at 2:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't believe in magic.
If you mean in demons? that's different
August 30 at 2:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Even if magic isn't actually effective, though, there are still various Satanical groups that claim to practice "magic," and that's not harmless.
August 30 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia mutants do:
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-lees-superhumans
Stan Lee's Superhumans - Episodes, Video & Schedule - HISTORY.com
Save
HISTORY.COM
August 30 at 2:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I'm not sure how different that is from the argument "People shouldn't read stories about war because they might try to live out their war-fantasies in real life"
August 30 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley changed "hero" to "war"
August 30 at 2:30pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh I believe in magic alright
http://youtu.be/mDYNuD4CwlI
Ok, I probably going to hell....
Do You Believe In Magic - The Lovin' Spoonful
Do you believe in magic in a ayoung girl's heart How the...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Kids shouldn't read stories that anthropomorphize animals because they'll try to talk to badgers
August 30 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger by magic, i mean what God allows the demons to do to seduce practitioners of any variety of occult art often denied as such activity by the practitioner.
August 30 at 2:33pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
Pater Edmund's choice of comparing lying to artificial birth control is unfortunate because it can have the opposite effect of what he intends because common experience of life teaches us that lying, i.e. saying what we know is not true, is virtually intrinsic to our nature as political animals, and thus in turn his comparison can be seen as a defense of artificial birth control.
http://catholiccultureandsociety.blogspot.com/.../proof...
Catholic Culture and Society: The proof of Catholic social theory is : Does it work at a...
This blog is about : Organic Catholicism. . . . . Organic Catholicism is at human scale. It's eminently practical, and simple. . . . . It's back to nature, as in back to our nature. It looks at the world around us according to our nature, which in turn is to look at the world simply . . . . . . . .…
CATHOLICCULTUREANDSOCIETY.BLOGSPOT.COM
August 30 at 2:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think that's a widespread problem, John. I think it takes a special sort of megalomania to want to "have power over things"
August 30 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger but Edward war is not intrisically evil. Nor is every war novel good.
August 30 at 2:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger megalomania is pretty common today. Narcissism moreso "cough" FB
August 30 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That was the point: it's not sufficient to argue that they did X because they read about it in a book.
Just as it's silly to say that "X went on a shooting spree because he read a violent book" so it could be silly to say that "X got involved in satanism because he read HP": sure those statements could point out a kind of causality, but only in the way getting in a car is a cause of dying in a car crash.
August 30 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia that being said, we don't have first person shooter video games in my house.
August 30 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but by power over nature, I mean what is the practical aim of modern science. This is commonly held. Not so much megalomania.
August 30 at 2:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that is not the same as individual instantaneous power over nature, like wave a magic wand and my room is clean. Flying on a broom is different from flying on a plane.
August 30 at 2:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Katie Duda Is there really evidence of possession only from reading Harry potter? Because that seems a very susceptible person
August 30 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia impossible Katie. Doesn't there have to be willful assent from a Baptized person?
August 30 at 2:49pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yeah, broom flying is more economical...you can get a wisk broom for like $10...
August 30 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger true, Edward. But a child that spends his days watching war movier and dreaming about such, does it not influence his later decisions? Not always of course. But who would deny this?
August 30 at 2:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley How 'bout Mary Poppins? is she eeevil?
August 30 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Mr. Berquist used to say that Superman's flying is unnatural, because the whole man is moved but not part by part.
August 30 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes, but only because musicals are
August 30 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Well the books were before the movie
August 30 at 2:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Musicals exist outside of time
August 30 at 2:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Poppins
Mary Poppins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mary Poppins is the lead character in a series of eight...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
August 30 at 2:52pm · Like · Remove Preview
Jehoshaphat Escalante also, Superman's motion was violent in relation to gravity and levity
August 30 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (we have the books)
August 30 at 2:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Superman moves by pure act of will
August 30 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante like a baseball that never falls. Ergo, demonic
August 30 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I mean come on, ERGO
August 30 at 2:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why doesn't Superman recline on his back and read, while flying?
August 30 at 2:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am sorry, I am not taking this very seriously.
In all seriousness now. TAC is next door to the occult capital of the USA. Most of it is just silly, but I knew of some really dark stuff...animal sacrifices, orgies, etc.
We even had a witch steal a host from the TLM in Ventura for use in a black mass ... James Layne tried chasing her down. That is why, even if black Masses were a myth of literature in the 19th century, I know dang well they happen in reality now. So there you have it, fiction inspiring reality.
August 30 at 2:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Ojai delenda est
August 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahhaha
August 30 at 2:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree mb there is a difference though i think the underlying desire (in some only) is the same.
August 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "occult capital of the USA" !
August 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Superman's motion was not unnatural. I always assumed it was gas powered by his super-flatulence...that explains how he could even propel in space
August 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Silent but deadly of course
August 30 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Superman is probably evil, if only because it seems to be an attempt to make Nietzscheism acceptable to children
August 30 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante its nothing to with Nietzsche
August 30 at 2:55pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Hmm...I returned from attending to some duties intending to talk about NFP. It appears the conversation, has, er, moved on? (I will not say, up.)
August 30 at 2:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley . . . but then again, I haven't really seen any Superman stuff, I find an invulnerable person that needs Deus ex Machina countermeasures to be boring
August 30 at 2:56pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the name is via Zangwill's totally superficial appropriation of the term
August 30 at 2:56pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Superman is plenty silly, but dont blame Fritz for it
August 30 at 2:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz up, up and away it has moved!
August 30 at 2:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley Wendy Irene, the topic doesn't' move, everything returns eventually here.
August 30 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante for instance, does Superman use NFP?
August 30 at 2:57pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz There is no fore or after in TNET, all things have been, are and will be...so post about NFP if you will
August 30 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante maybe those tights just reduce his motility so he has no need of NFP
August 30 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/the-happy-valley
The Ojai Valley
Is it possible there's a place where everyone is content?Where all is right with the world?You be...
TRAVELANDLEISURE.COM
August 30 at 2:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Hold on, since Superman is an alien, not actually human, is Lois Lane engaging in that worst of unnatural sins?
August 30 at 2:58pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia well, reproductive cells are sensitive to temperature...
August 30 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, there's a topic for a medieval disputation
August 30 at 2:58pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, the original Superman comics did not have him flying...he was just able to jump real high, hence the whole "leap over buildings in a single bound" thing....it was only the later Superman that suddenly could fly
August 30 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Oh noes, my geeky side I showing itself
August 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante St Joseph of Cupertino supposedly flew all over
August 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley I suppose the comparison would involve considering whether or not the generation of hybrids like mules would be against nature.
August 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante no tights though
August 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz So Mr. Escalante, can a man wear tights as a way of regulating the number of children
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia so lugging the Latin Liguori (I love alliteration) wasn't geeky enough?
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante in principle yes, Joshua
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Franklin--I wonder what you mean when you say that lying is "virtually intrinsic to our nature as political animals." No matter how common it is to lie, it remains unnatural to do so. It is likewise unnatural to use artificial birth control even if it is commonly used.
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh you're asking whether its licit
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yep
August 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think so, for wearing tights is analogous to barrier....
August 30 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante if it doesnt interfere with the act, why not?
August 30 at 3:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I assume you take them off and/or have an opening for the act....
August 30 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz This is treading into dangerous territory here
August 30 at 3:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It would depend on intention. Why are you wearing tights?
August 30 at 3:02pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Edward, Superman (minus all the disgusting deviancy in the movies) can be useful for explaining two of the properties of the resurrected body; impassibility and agility.
August 30 at 3:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and glorious tights
August 30 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and underwear OUTSIDE of tights
August 30 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante cape would be glory too I guess
August 30 at 3:04pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante extra glory
August 30 at 3:04pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante glory upon glory
August 30 at 3:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwr-7nkTuX4
men in tights
my daughter laughs at this clip, its her favourite film
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia glorious gloriful glory?
August 30 at 3:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just had three bottles of wine show up at my door unexpectedly
August 30 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley didn't have it in me to send them away.
August 30 at 3:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe the underwear on the outside is what regulates the temperature
August 30 at 3:08pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I want to hear more about "occult capitol of the USA"
August 30 at 3:09pm · Like
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Wendy Irene So, what I was going to say relating to NFP: first, note that ecological breastfeeding is not 100% effective as birth regulation, but should not be simply dismissed. Women who practice ecological breastfeeding average 14.6 months of suppression of the hormonal cycle. Note also that ecological breastfeeding is NOT simply exclusive breastfeeding, but includes the "seven standards".
1)Exclusive breastfeeding (no other liquid or solid from any other source enters the infant's mouth) for the first six months of life.
2)Comfort your baby at the breast.
3)Don't use bottles and pacifiers.
4)Share sleep with your baby for night feedings.
5)Share sleep with your baby for daily nap feedings.
6)Nurse frequently day and night and avoid schedules.
7)Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your baby.
August 30 at 3:09pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante 8)wear corduroy jumpers
August 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Be quiet, Jason, I'm talking.
August 30 at 3:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahaha yes ma'am
August 30 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene That said, not all women have the same suppression of fertility. (Like many of my relations.) But that doesn't mean that we automatically have to presume the need for NFP for anyone who doesn't have the more average spacing.
August 30 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia JA, google "Ojai" it is a self-applied label
August 30 at 3:13pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante really? I think this is something Ghost Hunter guy came up with to boost book sales
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Richard Senate, Ghost Hunter"
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley TAC : Ojai area :: the Promised Land : surrounding countries
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and that in two ways)
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TAC is Hogworts
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene What does your bride think of that, Edward?
August 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante a few hippies with spirit catcher macrames do not an occult capitol make
August 30 at 3:15pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Wendy Irene, I think Bernadette has learned to ignore my comments about CA.
August 30 at 3:15pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Very wise.
August 30 at 3:15pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I told my kids that TAC was Hogwarts, but with a more outdated doctrine of physics
August 30 at 3:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Perfection on that level is dull, though, and Ojai (pronounced "oh-high," by the way) delivers on the quirky front, too. The Ojai Valley, you see, has long drawn people yearning to go deep. "The magnetic center of the earth is here," the Los Angeles Times wrote in 1878. "Spirit-minded people come to reach the God centers in themselves." A partial list of the groups that have called it home: Church of Tzaddi, Life Divine Center, Sufi Order, Vortex Institute, Science of the Mind, Siddha Yoga Dham, ECKANKAR, Church Universal and Triumphant, Sathya Sai Baba. On top of that, you have a layer of hippies and artists; ceramist Beatrice Wood—often called the Mama of Dada—lived in Ojai, where she was a follower of resident Jiddu Krishnamurti, thought by some to be the next messiah. Krishnamurti, with Aldous Huxley and others, founded the Happy Valley School here in 1946 (it's one of at least 20 private schools in the area). Then there's a thin layer of celebrity frosting. Anthony Hopkins, Bill Paxton, Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche all have houses here.
August 30 at 3:16pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It's the Hipster-physics, JA. When Aristotelianism is in, we'll be able to go around telling people that we were Aristotelians before Aristotle was a thing.
August 30 at 3:16pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that species of Aristotelianism might not ever be back in; recourse to angels as the motive force behind baseballs is done for I think
August 30 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Ojai is a nexus of Wicca, and that sometimes leads to darker practices... in all seriousness my maternal uncle was a warlock in Ojai, did some dark stuff... he renounced it as the last act he did before dying. Was in a coma, woke up, renounced it, and then went back into the coma and died. It was a very surreal experience
August 30 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I dunno, it probably is true in some way.
August 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia define "some"
August 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<<5)Share sleep with your baby for daily nap feedings.
6)Nurse frequently day and night and avoid schedules.
7)Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates you from your baby.>>>These three in particular are hilariously impractical for mothers of more than one child
August 30 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Maybe what newton means by inertia is really angels being kept busy ?
August 30 at 3:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahahaha sleep when my baby sleeps hahahaha
August 30 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Orgies, animal sacrifices, and some details I do not wish to discuss
August 30 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante gentlemen we need to step back at this point
August 30 at 3:20pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and allow this matriarchomachy plenty of room
August 30 at 3:21pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia yeah the dryer is probably done.... no rest for the wicked....
August 30 at 3:21pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I was done anyways....leaving for a wedding very soon
August 30 at 3:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's starting to sound like the reports of Ms. Zedlick's class on that part of the Politics where Aristotle talks about women. (which, incidentally, was the only class that semester I missed accidentally)
August 30 at 3:22pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Yes, I know what you mean, Samantha. I have four! But just because it doesn't work for some people doesn't mean we should disregard it for everybody. And in fact, for some the nap is not necessary for suppression of fertility. (I don't regularly nap with my children, but my children are about 2 years apart, just because I largely ecologically breastfeed -- and because I got the genes from my mom's side and not my dad's side -- many of my aunts and cousins have far less suppression of fertility from breastfeeding.)
August 30 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sure, it works for some people, I'll happily grant that.
August 30 at 3:26pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If those practicing ecological breastfeeding average 14.6 months of suppression of the hormonal cycle, then children would be naturally spaced 23.6 months apart--roughly two years. Looks like nature has a pretty good system in place.
August 30 at 3:26pm · Like
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Wendy Irene That's average. As I said, some people don't have that long of spacing (and some have more!)
August 30 at 3:26pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Got it. But it establishes a kind of norm whereby nature spaces children.
August 30 at 3:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think it's The Occult Capitol, but Ojai is a pretty legit doorway to the spirit world.
Morgan I Branch: thoughts?
August 30 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Since whatever happens always or for the most part cannot be by chance, it is correct to say that breastfeeding is nature's way to space children. Exceptions do not undermine that principle.
August 30 at 3:32pm · Like · 2
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Wendy Irene Let me say that I think there are many good potential reasons for NFP, and that certainty that, for example, another pregnancy would be way too exhausting for the mother can be one such reason. I also think that the decision belongs to the couple, precisely because it's a prudential decision, and prudential decisions are about particulars, and so the people who best know the particulars are the ones who makes the decision. It's like the decision to go to war: the decisions belongs to the president, because he's the one who best knows the particulars.
BUT some confuse "having the responsibility for the decision" with "not being able to get the decision wrong". The president is the only one to whom the decision to go to war belongs: but he can make a mistake, and it's the duty of others to think about what sort of things make war justified AND whether in a particular case those conditions prevail, so that they can help the president make the decision.
There is a school of thought about NFP that the couple makes the decision and no one can have any opinion about whether certain kinds of reasons for that decision are valid. This doesn't square with what we've heard from the Church (which speaks of "grave", "just", "serious" reasons needed for NFP.
August 30 at 3:34pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed on NFP. It is the couple's decision, but they can err. (On the analogy to war, for the American regime it is Congress that is supposed to make the declaration . . . perhaps a foolish constitutional principle given your correct account of prudence.)
August 30 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews Sure anyone can err. But it's not our place to pass judgment on anyone else's motives. And it's pretty darn hard to come up with a universal list of acceptable reasons.
August 30 at 3:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Be careful not to pass judgment on people you think may be passing judgment on anyone else's motives.
August 30 at 3:42pm · Unlike · 5
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Wendy Irene Hi, Bekah!
But, passing judgment on an individual's motives is not the same thing as saying "X kind of motive is (or isn't) a valid reason for NFP.
August 30 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Exactly, especially since the Church has done exactly that, and done so for our own good.
August 30 at 3:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, when has the Church done that?
August 30 at 3:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What motives have been called out as invalid?
August 30 at 3:44pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Just as saying murder is wrong is not the same as saying that some individual person committed a mortal sin when they killed someone. Perhaps they had invincible ignorance on the subject. I don't judge their soul, but I do judge that the act of murder is in itself evil.
August 30 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Well, right here, I was making an argument for it being OK to even start talking about valid or invalid motives.
August 30 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz We do need to be careful that in avoiding "judging" we don't avoid developing prudence! "NFP should be used for serious reasons." "What are serious reasons" "Whatever you think they are, of course after considered thought" "But how can I have considered thought if no one will discuss it for fear of judging motives?"
August 30 at 3:45pm · Unlike · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Grave, just and serious reasons, as Wendy cited above.
August 30 at 3:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, what are grave just and serious reasons? That's pretty non-specific
August 30 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Right: but does it need to be all three (grave, just, and serious) too, like my need to save up for a water jet pack before we conceive our next child?
August 30 at 3:52pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Wendy Irene I'd agree, Samantha, that that's not a specific list of motives! But it does give us some parameters (rather as just war theory does).
August 30 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I guess, except without anything more specific it's hard to know what a "just" reason might be.
August 30 at 3:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The wonderful thing about it is that it is a rough and ready rule with built in parameters.
Most people won't abstain for the sake of a water jet pack.
Most people.
August 30 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Wendy Irene That's what we're supposed to figure out, right?
August 30 at 3:48pm · Like
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Wendy Irene I'd say that justice, gravity and seriousness are all about proportion. You need a proportionate reason to practice NFP. Proportionate to what? To the suspension of the ordinary practice of a vocation to which you've vowed your whole self.
August 30 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I've heard lots of people talk about their (to me seemingly) not so grave reasons and they often end up with child anyhow.
And none of them have water jet packs.
August 30 at 3:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Yes...and while I think it
August 30 at 3:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz just or grave are very different things...I don't think one can avoid children for merely a "just cause" I think it must be grave. Spacing, perhaps, requires less justification.
August 30 at 3:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wendy-- i liked your last because I think it's very well put, not because I'm sure I agree with it.
August 30 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like
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Wendy Irene "justis causis" is one of the phrases used, as I remember. But since it's proportional, in this case (where we're talking about major matter, the suspension the ordinary practice of a vowed vocation) a "just" reason will also be a "grave" reason. My child's jumping on the table during dinner is a "just" reason for sending him to his room, but not a "just" reason for my chopping his head off.
August 30 at 3:54pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Samantha, looks like we both have over-active enter buttons.
August 30 at 3:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yep
August 30 at 3:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, might another way of putting it be that a just reason would need to be proportionate to the sacrifice involved in periodic abstinence? Or do you mean something else?
August 30 at 3:56pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews But that's the thing. If I think it's irresponsible to have a child while living on state aid, or without health insurance....ok fine. I will avoid pregnancy. But I can't say anyone else is wrong for getting pregnant while using food stamps. That's their conscience. Everyone likes to throw out vacations or toys as poor reasons to avoid, but let's be honest here, that's not the motivations for those using nfp. Seriously, if it was about material possessions they're not going to use nfp. Those Catholics who use nfp are doing so as part of their path to sanctity. And I don't see how anyone can come up with a universal list of right and wrong reasons. Because what is just to my family isn't necessarily just to the next.
August 30 at 3:56pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Just cause is good enough for the Vatican.....so it's good enough for me.
August 30 at 3:58pm · Like
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Wendy Irene But what does that mean?
August 30 at 3:58pm · Like
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Wendy Irene What does the word "just" mean?
August 30 at 3:58pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews What is owed. What I owe my husband and what I owe my children.
August 30 at 4:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think that, on balance, it means what most people willing to abstain rather than have sex think and say it means.
August 30 at 4:00pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews And that's where God will guide families if different ways. So will be called to homeschool, some will be called to have children closely spaces, it's going to vary. And that is unique to each family.
August 30 at 4:02pm · Like
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John Kunz Article. II.
Section. 1.
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.
The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.
The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.
The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be encreased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
August 30 at 4:03pm · Like · 2
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Wendy Irene Bekah, how about if I say that what is owed one's husband is that you engage in the ordinary practice of marriage -- which is uniting in the marital embrace when the couple feels the attractive for it..
August 30 at 4:04pm · Like
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Wendy Irene It's OK to suspend that ordinary practice when grave reasons intervene (such as being in a public place, for instance.)
August 30 at 4:04pm · Like
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John Kunz What about what the husband owes the wife?
August 30 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene mutatis mutandis
August 30 at 4:10pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews Exactly Matthew. I really think it's ok for even academics to admit there isn't a universal answer here. The Church has been very careful to not make a list here. Not to make our lives harder but because there aren't universals when it comes to what is just to a unique family.
August 30 at 4:06pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Right John Kunz. I was answering for myself, but absolutely the husband must be willing to die to self for the good of his wife and children.
August 30 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz Mutadis mutandis my footnis. It's a fair distinction... I don't think NFp is always looked at from both the view of responsibility AND love... And it goes both ways... Not just forcing the dude to hold off...
August 30 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Bekah, I don't see how what you say actually contradicts what I tried to say above. I agree that couples will have varying circumstances (in a similar way that different Presidents have different circumstances where they have to decide whether to go to war.) But that's not the same as saying, "anything the couple really wants to abstain for is OK." That wasn't what the Church said.
August 30 at 4:08pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/CQx1kbmow_g
X-Jetpacks
X-Jetpacks Water power jetpacks, bolt on kits for jet skis
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:09pm · Like · 3
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Wendy Irene There there, Matt.
August 30 at 4:10pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews The thing is Wendy Irene, I think I owe my husband more than just sex when we feel like it. I owe him a healthy wife. A happy home and most importantly, children raised well, educated well and safe and secure in their families foundation. So what is just to my husband is what is just to my children, since that is the end of marriage. And often, what is just is to say no to self and yes to the good of the family.
August 30 at 4:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson AMAZING:
http://youtu.be/LHL16av4C9k
♠ Flyboard ♠ HD
Man can walk on water. Flyboard.
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia does any one else feel the need to throw in a Metallica™ song?
August 30 at 4:13pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz I was hoping for blue oyster cult.. I was feeling the need for cowbell
August 30 at 4:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The reason circumstances are important, morally speaking, is not because they make the act not fall under a universal but because they make the act fall under a different universal.
August 30 at 4:13pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews anything the couple really wants to abstain for is OK
***********************************************************
I see this a lot in NFP discussions, the hypothetical couple who's abstaining for a jetpack. Well not hypothetical anymore
Anyway, NFP is self correcting that way. If it's a greater good than coming together as spouses, they'll continue to abstian. Otherwise, the perceived good will fade and things will rightly correct themselves. And, I think we'd all be hard pressed to find the couple who is using NFP, a self denial in and of itself, for selfish reasons.
August 30 at 4:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia aren't circumstances always important morally speaking?
August 30 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley For example having marital relations with your wife is just having marital relations. Having marital relations with someone else is adultery.
August 30 at 4:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley New circumstance = new species
August 30 at 4:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley = new universal moral norm applies
August 30 at 4:14pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Guiding non-Catholcs to discussions about NFP is a handy and effective way to keep the Church small.
August 30 at 4:15pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley (in the example the circumstance is "married to" or something)
August 30 at 4:15pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson OK, one more - but you HAVE to watch this:
http://youtu.be/zsrciLXhqRo
Jetlev-Flyer 2014 Official Video
Jetlev-Flyer.com Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made JF-260 ever. The lifting...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews But I can't Peterson....link broken,
August 30 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley THATS COOL
August 30 at 4:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson, I used to think Pope Bonbon was obsessed, but you're giving him a run for the money
August 30 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley NFP FTW!
August 30 at 4:16pm · Like
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Wendy Irene I'm going to push this, Bekah, not because I think you hold the following position, but because I'm wondering how, in what manner, you'd draw the line. Why would you tell a couple that they can't use NFP so they can save for a jetpack? You can't see into their hearts...perhaps it would satisfy some deep longing, and make them (say, the man, Matthew J. Peterson ) really happy, and so a better father. How do you make the argument that they shouldn't use NFP for that reason?
August 30 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ZGKI8vpcg
Fonzie Jumps the Shark on Happy Days (Episode 5.3) 1977
Ever hear someone say that a tv show "jumped the...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley water jetpack = your argument is invalid.
August 30 at 4:17pm · Like · 2
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John Kunz @bekah http://youtu.be/9dghbyBaQyI
Rubber sharks can't beat Batman!
Rubber sharks can't beat Batman!
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews I can't. I wouldn't. That's the couple and God and their spiritual adviser to determine. It would have to do with their motivations and I don't know those. That's why I think the whole concept of trying to pin down who can use NFP and when isn't healthy.
August 30 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews BAT SHARK REPELLENT!!!!!
August 30 at 4:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley That view totally undermines moral philosophy and moral theology.
August 30 at 4:19pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti There is nothing that makes me feeler closer to Christ that being lectured about the merits of various reasons for abstention. "Blessed art those who have carefully vetted their excuses for not getting busy" should have been one of the beatitudes.
August 30 at 4:19pm · Like
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Wendy Irene See, I think you're confounding two things: the kind, the sort, of reasons which make it OK to do something, and the motivations of some individual person and the guilt they incur or do not incur thereby.
August 30 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The more speculative lectures are generally either for those who already have determined to abide by the Church's teachings or for preachers/confessors to take into account when thy use rhetoric to convert people.
August 30 at 4:20pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews No it doesn't. It's exactly what the Church says....or doesn't say in this case.
August 30 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, it seems to me that you're confounding the judgment about a particular person with the universal judgment of an act in specified circumstances.
August 30 at 4:21pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The former instance is unjudgeable, because no one can no all the relevant circumstances
August 30 at 4:22pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews No I'm saying that a couple's decision to partake in a perfectly licit practice, as deemed by the Church, cannot be judged by those of us who don't know their motives.
August 30 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The latter is basically the subject of moral philosophy.
August 30 at 4:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia SEE! Robin has underwear over tights!!
August 30 at 4:22pm · Like
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Wendy Irene It's perfectly licit _with a grave reason_. It's our responsibility to understand what that means.
August 30 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But you're adding the claim that since a particular couple can't be judged, we can't judge universally whether a certain kind of circumstance is sufficient to justify NFP
August 30 at 4:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Anyhow, like I was trying to say - THANK YOU, Wendy Irene! - I'm pretttty sure a water jet pack right now, today, would deeply satisfy the longings of my soul and make me a better person.
It's virtually self-evident:
http://youtu.be/zsrciLXhqRo
Jetlev-Flyer 2014 Official Video
Jetlev-Flyer.com Germany is proud to present the most powerful out of carbon fibre made JF-260 ever. The lifting...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews I'm saying there is no universal here. There will always be particular circumstances and there will never be universal circumstances by which we can draw conclusions.
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Sittin' around on a Saturday, learnin' about people's sex lives.
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And I'm saying that that's not how circumstances work
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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John Kunz Love & responsibility page 28: interact with others as they have their own ends, not a means to an end.
"Don't "beatitudenally get busy" just for your own kicks, and dont get knocked up all by itself and do so skipping that the other has their own ends also"
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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Wendy Irene But that's always true, of every single moral act (including murder).
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley The addition of a circumstance can change the morality of the act.
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Yes, I am. Which is why the Church has never ever established a list of when NFP is ok and it is not ok.
August 30 at 4:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley But that's because it makes it fall under a different universal norm.
August 30 at 4:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think Bekah Sims Andrews point or the part of it I like is that the rough and ready principle of the the thing: most people will only stop having sex for grave reasons.
August 30 at 4:26pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Let me play peacemaker (bwahahahahaha)
WIG and Ed are showing there is a general principle by which an action can be judged
Bekah is pointing out that there no way of judging the people themselves.
August 30 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Wendy Irene WIZ, Michael.
August 30 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley WIZ to you, Michael
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia You'll always be WIG to me
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Heh-heh. He said "rough and ready."
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews Absolutely. And each circumstance will be unique to the couple.
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews And therefore we can't establish universals.
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Matthew, that's true of killing too, but murder still happens
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews Or what Matthew and Mike said.
August 30 at 4:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley . . . and that's where you go wrong
August 30 at 4:26pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti It is amazing how much devout Catholics unintentionally share about their most intimate private lives while discussing NFP.
August 30 at 4:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia But I still think Ed and WIZ (whatever) are right. we need guidelines
August 30 at 4:26pm · Unlike · 2
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John Kunz But props to wig for allowing the jet pack
August 30 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So for all the handwringing of young catholic interlectuals, most people at the end of the day aren't going to actually abstain unless they think shite just got real real, for hella reals.
August 30 at 4:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Bekah, where have I said that I judge any individual couple?
August 30 at 4:27pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews I never said you did WIG.
August 30 at 4:27pm · Like
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John Kunz Isn't the difficulty with guidelines the varying relativity of degree? Finances vs finances, stress vs stress, health vs health?
August 30 at 4:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson, that's BS. "well he shot him. must have had a good reason. let's acquit"
August 30 at 4:28pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia I, for one, don't assume anything about anyone's reasons. Y'all have fun now
August 30 at 4:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No. It's a very different and roughly self limiting circumstance, and the fact that it never comes up in these discussions is ludicrous.
August 30 at 4:29pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Never comes up? I hear it all the time, actually.
August 30 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz I think Matthew J. Peterson meant, the day ones losses their job, car breaks down AND someone gets sick... No nookie for a little while... That type of shite
August 30 at 4:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia HOWEVER, the difference between NFP and murder is pretty different
August 30 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene True, I'm just trying to make a point here.
August 30 at 4:30pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Most people do not give up available sex with someone they are attracted to unless they think they are in grave circumstances.
August 30 at 4:30pm · Like · 2
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Bekah Sims Andrews I would love a universal list. It would be extremely helpful. But it can't exist practically speaking. So the guidelines would have to be tailored to each couple at there state in life then....which can totally change in a month...or a year. And so that's where a good spiritual adviser would be necessary. To assist the individual couple ascertain if they are being selfish, or just.
August 30 at 4:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or have a headache
August 30 at 4:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Most people don't give up available property that's there for the taking even if they are in grave circumstances
August 30 at 4:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia five-finger discount?
August 30 at 4:31pm · Like
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Wendy Irene But are we really going to refuse to give any sort of public thought to the SORT OF THING that makes NFP OK? (note that I don't say, list every single possible situation and pass judgment on it)
August 30 at 4:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I assumed since he stole the food, he must have been hungry
August 30 at 4:32pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Understanding NFP is pretty important though. I mean, how else can we signal to our peer group that we are the most orthodox family in the rosary group?
August 30 at 4:32pm · Like · 3
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Bekah Sims Andrews No, I wouldn't say that Wendy Irene, but I just think the list would be so vague....it wouldn't be helpful.
August 30 at 4:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley My family doesn't need to signal, the rosary group's judgment means nothing to us.
August 30 at 4:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You hear about it all the time, and I don't disagree with your point - people love to talk about this stuff and themselves - but at the end of the day what they actually do is far different. The idea that all these people are out there misusing NFP doesn't hold weight with me at all.
August 30 at 4:33pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson If people forgo sex for long periods of time, and go through all this trouble, it ain't for the sake of a water jet pack. And the more disciplined they are that way, the more (sadly) interested they are in water jet packs.
August 30 at 4:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so since it is unlikely, there isn't grave moral risk?
August 30 at 4:34pm · Like
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Bekah Sims Andrews Yes, I think this is escape for us Matthew, back to the good old days when we could discuss life's tough questions, for hours on end. And not be interrupted by a naked three year old who just walked in and announced "eww gigusting!" I don't want to know.
August 30 at 4:34pm · Like · 1
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Wendy Irene Well, more than one good, balanced priest has expressed to me his concerns about misuse of NFP. And if anyone outside of the individual is qualified to know, I'd say a priest is.
August 30 at 4:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think as long as a list of circumstances was stipulated to be complete, the morality of every action could be determined.
August 30 at 4:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Kunz Or world find themselves in ACTUAL NEED of the jet pack in their sad miserable lives.
August 30 at 4:35pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Yeah, that seems right, Edward. That's why we can do any judging about morals at all. The reason we can't judge INDIVIDUALS is that we don't know all their circumstances.
August 30 at 4:36pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Yes, the BVM weeps on her throne each time a devout, loving couple with five kids uses an inadequate excuse for abstaining from sex. I demand that a group of elderly Italian men immediately convene and draw up a list telling me when I can have sex!
August 30 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson There is a risk, but how many experienced priests in conservative parishes think it something that ranks talking about as much as orthodoxish circles yammer on and on about it. But, hey, we all like to talk about sex.
The only circles that care about NFP seem to be to be quite procreative.
August 30 at 4:37pm · Like · 3
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Wendy Irene Aaron, if you think that's what anyone here has been saying...
August 30 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I could be wrong.
August 30 at 4:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^you can type that again^
August 30 at 4:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If there were no universals regarding NFP, then there would be no guidelines by which a spiritual director could guide a couple seeking his advice. So, if you recognize the need for spiritual direction in NFP, then you implicitly recognize the existence of universals.
August 30 at 4:39pm · Unlike · 4
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John Boyer Death penalty could be interesting when everyone tires of talking about when it's ok to take a roll in the hay.
August 30 at 4:40pm · Unlike · 3
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Wendy Irene Matthew, doesn't the "safety valve" argument of itself imply that NFP can be used for non-grave reasons? The argument is, "If it's not a grave reason, you'll stop abstaining."
It seems to me a problem
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia death penalty is immoral
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like
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Wendy Irene Company's arrived, so I will bid y'all farewell.
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NFP seems to be a slippery slope that leads to the disolution of the family when each rides around on their own separate water jet pack (or broomstick)
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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Bekah Sims Andrews I'm not saying there aren't universals, just that they are as hopeless vague as not selfishly. For just reasons. And we can't get much more particular than that. Because circumstances then come into play.
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Wendy Irene, your comments have been brilliant in this discussion. Thank you.
August 30 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It's not a perfect rule, and of course there are guidelines, but for the love of lust alone most people do not give up available sex except for grave reasons - that they will be thinking about and that will be tested over time, in this case. So prudence has a little help here from nature.
Checks and balances, kids, checks and balances.
August 30 at 4:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The safety valve argument is not an argument - it's just a recognition that non-grave reasons will often be weeded out.
August 30 at 4:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Death penalty is immoral really does = MODERNISM
But I don't think that what is modern is inherently evil, so...
August 30 at 4:44pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Arguing about NFP is one of the most thoroughly modern aspects of contemporary Catholic thought.
August 30 at 4:46pm · Like · 1
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Owen White After reading all 8724 comments, I'm inclined to think that TAC exists in order that people who otherwise stand very little chance of getting laid are able to find mating companions.
August 30 at 4:46pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti Owen you're joking, but as an outside observer, I would argue that TAC is actually an elaborate speed dating service for orthodox Catholics with less than stellar SAT scores.
August 30 at 4:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley My SAT scores were 98 percentile, as were my GRE scores, thank you.
August 30 at 4:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my GRE sat and act were 98th or above
August 30 at 4:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley I should have added the "or above"
August 30 at 4:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but that's just a shot across the bow. no need to get uppity
August 30 at 4:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I had a 5 on the calculus BC exam in highschool
August 30 at 4:53pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti 98th%ile is between 2140-2190. That won't guarantee you anything at top schools.
August 30 at 4:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I had 2220 on the GRE
August 30 at 4:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley The point is it's not "less than stellar"
August 30 at 4:54pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti AND, you read all that Aristotle.
August 30 at 4:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which is why intelligent people pick TAC
August 30 at 4:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and your point is...
August 30 at 4:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sheesh, even I haven't read all 8728 comments
August 30 at 4:56pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti TAC grads spend a ton of time talking about how smart they are. Which is why this thread has almost 10,000 comments. I just enjoy tweaking you.
August 30 at 4:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia like I said, a shot across the bow. I don't take it personally. but I don't think anyone is "talking about how smart they are"
August 30 at 4:57pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia more like TAC grads spend a lot of time talking....
August 30 at 4:57pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia sometimes the substance shows how smart they are
August 30 at 4:58pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "Michael Beitia: my GRE sat and act were 98th or above"
August 30 at 4:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it was a reaction to your prodding... but a couple of comments out of 9000 don't mean a whole lot
August 30 at 4:58pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti May I refer you to the post that sits at the top of this thread.
August 30 at 4:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia aaah the tongue in cheek one?
August 30 at 4:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron can be the new troll!
August 30 at 5:01pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't think he has the crazy of Pope Bonbon
August 30 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Any poems to read to us?
August 30 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's disappointing
August 30 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i thought the initial post highlighted the strength of the program. Not the quality of raw material.
August 30 at 5:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It takes a special sort of crazy. Maybe if he made a profile "Falcon Boethius" and used the same picture..... well then maybe
August 30 at 5:02pm · Like
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John Boyer For a dating service, TAC sure make you do a lot of unrelated reading. It's almost as if dating wasn't their primary focus. Guess they should have gone with the Match.com model.
August 30 at 5:03pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson God forbid I say one good thing about my alma mater reading lots of two long dead authors.
Owen White: I submit to you that any FB post with this many comments is full of....unique individuals.
But given that a lot of people on the thread are religious and married, and you want to talk about sex, I would refer you to every major recent study which shows practicing religious married couples have more and better than pretty much everyone else.
August 30 at 5:04pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm no troll! I just made a jokey comment and the next thing I knew people were pulling their SAT scores out of mothballs!
August 30 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Owen White: but yes, sure.
August 30 at 5:04pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, you assailed their scores and thereby their intelligence, albeit in a jokey way.
August 30 at 5:06pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer We do not joke on this thread. We are all super serial.
August 30 at 5:05pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia no just Ed and I.
August 30 at 5:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Seriously Aaron, it's cool. I type faster than I realize jokes
August 30 at 5:05pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I once knew a man from Nantucket...
August 30 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger falcon yes. But isn't Boethius a bit unmagisterial
August 30 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I see what you did there.....
August 30 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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Owen White If these numbers are accurate I would think Gigliotti's assertion rather uncontroversial: http://collegeapps.about.com/.../thomas-aquinas-college.htm
Thomas Aquinas College - SAT Scores, Costs and Admissions Data
Thomas Aquinas College's average SAT scores, ACT...
COLLEGEAPPS.ABOUT.COM|BY BY ALLEN GROVE
August 30 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was grasping at Roman-sounding names. "Kestrel Athenasius"?
August 30 at 5:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I didn't defend my intelligence even though I got a perfect score on everything ever.
August 30 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The averages are just facts - not controversial.
August 30 at 5:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia on the other hand...... you can't conclude anything about anyone from averages
August 30 at 5:10pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson But why anyone would give much credit to the present day system in the first place is beyond me.
August 30 at 5:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia The average american male is 5'11" therefore, how tall am I?
August 30 at 5:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley The standard deviation for Reading scores at TAC is better than UC Berkeley
August 30 at 5:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond me. Plenty of larger fish in the sea.
August 30 at 5:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the average life expectancy is 81 years. when will I die?
August 30 at 5:12pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Above, please replace "less-than stellar SAT scores" with "on average, very unimpressive SAT scores."
August 30 at 5:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia much better
August 30 at 5:13pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah. It's top of the bottom half of the first 100 national liberal arts schools stuff. Not terrible, but not super impressive. If those scores impress you.
August 30 at 5:15pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia except an SAT score of 1800 puts one in the 83rd percentile, right?
August 30 at 5:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I guess everyone who takes the SAT doesn't go to college
August 30 at 5:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley TAC also, from what I've heard, has a policy of admiting a wide spectrum of SAT scores to prevent students from moving too quickly through difficult readings.
August 30 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia [swallows nasty comment about homeschoolers]
August 30 at 5:16pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Which, combined with need-based rather than merit-based scholarships explains the lower SAT scores.
August 30 at 5:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pace my friends who drive Audis or went to USC, but the most annoying grads to me are the ones on the freeway in a shiny A6 with a USC logo trying to pull in front of me after getting stuck behind a truck that the rest of us saw five minutes ago.
August 30 at 5:16pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am the best!!!
TAC is the best!!!
USA! USA! USA!
August 30 at 5:16pm · Unlike · 3
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Owen White Look, no one here is saying that reading the right books doesn't make up for being not quite Point Loma Nazarene.
August 30 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Owen White http://collegeapps.about.com/.../top-california-sat...
Compare SAT Scores for Admission to California Colleges and Universities
Learn what SAT scores are needed to get into...
COLLEGEAPPS.ABOUT.COM|BY BY ALLEN GROVE
August 30 at 5:16pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti For the third time in the history of this thread, my daughter came in the room and asked me why I was laughing so hard.
August 30 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Who's the best, Daniel?
August 30 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson All I'm saying is we read a lot of those two authors - more than most or anyone - and that's cool in my book.
We may only be ranked in the 60s for national liberal arts colleges. We may not understand a word we read but think we do. But I think it's cool we read 'em.
August 30 at 5:19pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Owen, that chart tells me that TAC is for kids who would have had a chance at some top schools if they had been able to pull up their math scores about 60 or 80 points. In short its a safety for smart kids who struggled in math.
August 30 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Aaron, that's silly.
August 30 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Honestly, I don't think many strategize that way, although score wise it's true: you gotta be a freak if you want to go to TAC - either you're parents forced you or you are drawn to the education.
August 30 at 5:21pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman For under graduate degrees it is virtually irrelevant where you go to school.
August 30 at 5:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, I only applied to TAC: the thought of applying somewhere else was never serious for me.
August 30 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Everyone has a Bachelors of some sort. You can say, "hey I got a BA at Harvard in English" and you still get paid 40,000/year as a casualty adjuster at Mercury Insurance.
August 30 at 5:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley (And three of my uncles teach at Franciscan)
August 30 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^weird.
August 30 at 5:23pm · Like
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Owen White "And why anyone would want to single tiny TAC out for arrogance and dorkiness is also beyond me." Well, clearly, so long as the St. John's Colleges exist. Johnnies are the apotheosis of arrogant dorks, and a shame to all great bookers everywhere.
August 30 at 5:23pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Harvard grads aren't known for meekness either
August 30 at 5:24pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Ok, now I am trolling, and I better stop because my kids will probably go to TAC, and when they see this thread hanging on a wall in the Smithsonian, they might ask me about my role in it.
August 30 at 5:24pm · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman I think young people are arrogant.
August 30 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Almost all of them.
August 30 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is the way things are.
August 30 at 5:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not arrogant, I'm right
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Young people with good/decent educations come off as more arrogant.
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Um, no. For undergraduate degrees it is exceedingly important where you got to college, which is why parents shell out 60k a year to send their kids to the highly regarded ones.
August 30 at 5:25pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Right.
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Owen White - granted, within great books circles TACers are more than fair game.
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley I thought that was because of the football team?
August 30 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I got to be 2nd string quarterback at TAC.
August 30 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How many great books schools are there? TAC, SJC, Magdelen, Thomas More (and I'm not really sure about the latter two), WCC?
August 30 at 5:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Never could've lived the dream at one of those big schools.
August 30 at 5:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
August 30 at 5:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you went to Claremont Mckenna, you would have had small classes, intense attention paid to your individual needs and interests, and employers like Google and Goldman Sachs would come on campus looking for you. And you would be ready for them despite your liberal arts ish background because the college would make sure you were.
August 30 at 5:29pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley compared to UT, Texas A&M and Notre Dame, at least the cult of TAC generally centers on it's intellectual prowess.
August 30 at 5:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The employers are mostly interested in MA's or above, though.
August 30 at 5:29pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley For Engineering, I'd think Stanford, Caltech or MIT would stand out as undergraduate degrees.
August 30 at 5:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No. At CMC the vast majority of graduates enter the workforce directly. And at the highest of levels.
I know it hurts to hear this, but you are believing lies.
August 30 at 5:30pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But anywhere else is just as good as anywhere else.
August 30 at 5:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Shimer College (Adler's school) is great books.
August 30 at 5:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So now you see why I take comfort in what we did get, which is lots of Aristotle and Aquinas.
August 30 at 5:31pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I entered the workforce directly out of high-school
August 30 at 5:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, that may be true. But I think that would be an exception for most degree fields.
August 30 at 5:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman As it stands, I have no desire to defend the worldly effectiveness of any of my degrees.
August 30 at 5:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Haha! Tell that to all the Princeton kids walking straight from graduation to their cushy wall street jobs
August 30 at 5:32pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley That's good, Daniel Lendman, because it'd be a difficult sell
August 30 at 5:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have pursued the least efficient, likely most expensive, and longest lasting track to achieve my educational goals.
August 30 at 5:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, that is not because of their degrees, but because of their fathers.
August 30 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The sense I have from recent news articles, Samantha, is that attending an Ivy League college generally means crushing debt for the next ten or twenty years
August 30 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^and thats a fact.
August 30 at 5:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, not at all. It is based on rank and prestige. Most TAC grads have no idea how it works.
The top schools get you the best jobs. Outside of them, you are outside looking in.
It is ONLY because of their degrees. The top tier national liberal arts colleges place their graduates at the top elite positions in the world.
August 30 at 5:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Although graduates of Franciscan end up as married couples with a combined debt of aout $100,000 and degrees in theology, so it's not just an Ivy League thing)
August 30 at 5:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I watched them do it! Then I watched them come back for reunions with their billions and billions of dollars
August 30 at 5:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You guys are way out of your element.
35-40% of Ivy League grads annually go into finance.
August 30 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Nope. Its because of their degrees and the career office
August 30 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but I'm liberally educated!
August 30 at 5:35pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You live in a merito-oligarchy and don't even known it.
August 30 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia liberally educated = poor
August 30 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Oh we know it
August 30 at 5:36pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The degree means everything, and it comes with career offices and relationships of the highest caliber.
August 30 at 5:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, since we have been hearing undocumented assertions, here is some text:
http://metro.co.uk/.../relax-students-employers-dont.../
Relax students… Employers don't care where you go to university any more
The job market has changed dramatically in recent years...
METRO.CO.UK
August 30 at 5:40pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman http://www.grb.uk.com/.../does-university.../2013/08/08/2514
Graduate News - Does University Ranking Even Matter in 2013?
University ranking certainly plays its part on decisions by...
GRB.UK.COM
August 30 at 5:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia How do I get to be a hedge fund manager? Play with other peoples' money and skim off the top? oh yeah.... Yale
August 30 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Also, Princeton kids don't come out with debt. Either their parents pay the whole shebang, or the University does
August 30 at 5:38pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger Bu can they discuss NFP at their galas, Samantha?
August 30 at 5:38pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't need articles. I live it and see it from a variety of angles.
The top schools function as a filtering system for the top positions in American life.
These kids have parents who know this and have striven for years to make sure their kids become players in this system. That's why they freak out over getting their kid accepted into the right preschool - you think they're just nuts? No, they know how this world works.
TAC is like the Shire in all this.
August 30 at 5:40pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, TNET is our great consolation. Also the Thomas and the Aristotle
August 30 at 5:40pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman http://www.forbes.com/.../college-admission-officer...
Where You Go To College Doesn't Matter
It's what you do when you get there that counts.
FORBES.COM|BY JOIE JAGER-HYMAN
August 30 at 5:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not reading the article, I can tell from the title that it's BS
August 30 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Matthew,that sounds a lot like, "I don't need facts."
August 30 at 5:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Also, these kids are all very smaht but also the perfect employees. They can set meetings at 14, etc.
Still, some TACers could do the same and we could much better on these fronts but we are so clueless it makes me sick to my stomach.
August 30 at 5:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It might be true under the top tier, perhaps.
August 30 at 5:42pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Same for you Samantha Cohoe.
August 30 at 5:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird "Consolation of the TNET" - proposed new addition to the TAC curriculum.
August 30 at 5:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm telling you, I've watched this happen with my mouth hanging open in shock at the injustice of it all
August 30 at 5:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Isn't that just the result of having a well-connected father?
August 30 at 5:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../college-admissions_b...
Does It Matter Where You Go To College? Probably Not.
A designer degree doesn't matter nearly as much in the...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
August 30 at 5:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley In most of those cases?
August 30 at 5:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Daniel Lendman: come to CMC and we'll go to the career office together?
Did you not hear me? Some businesses only interview at certain schools. There are hedge funds that only hire from one or two ivies. Look at the facts re where graduates from top tier schools go.
Do you think a TAC grad has a prayer at working for Google or Goldman?
August 30 at 5:46pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It's not anyone here's fault, but the fact this is even a convo is disheartening and sad to me. Again, it's no one's fault. But TAC isn't even in the game. Let's hope that's for the best.
August 30 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I think there's a difference, though, between entry-level positions and later positions.
August 30 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What if I don't want to work at a hedge fund?
August 30 at 5:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger nice articles. Would you publish articles on how to become a member of little plutocracy?
August 30 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Not sure if it's TAC completely or the liberal arts degree as a rule. I do think the degree you get is part of the job game too.
August 30 at 5:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Once you get your foot in the door, most of a brilliant career is networking.
August 30 at 5:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley (at least, that's the way it is in computers)
August 30 at 5:47pm · Like
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Megan Baird I think as a rule employers don't see the liberal arts degree as anything "marketable." On the other hand, if you have a B.A in Computer Science or an MBA, that makes more of a difference. So it isn't solely the college you go to, it's also the degree you have.
August 30 at 5:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Go look up the facts on where cabinet members and presidents and senators often come from. Tiny handful of schools, eh?
August 30 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman TAC, I acknowledge, does very little to help its graduates get jobs (though Mark Kretschmer has done a lot to improve that). But, in general, an undergrad doesn't matter very much.
August 30 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The people that are getting hired right of college are getting that because of their parents and connections. Not the degree,
August 30 at 5:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ^thats crazy
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson This is not a rational discussion.
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Because if it were the degree, then the people hiring would be very foolish, because they almost certainly could get someone just as good or almost for less money.
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No. That is fact.
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Megan Baird Good point.
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Says the man who won't read studies?
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And polls?
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson At top tier national liberal arts colleges, like many of the Claremont Colleges, Google and Goldman don't hire people on account of their specialized degree. Nor do the hedge funds who hire from Williams.
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And facts?
August 30 at 5:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fine. here.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/.../do-elite.../...
Do Elite Colleges Produce the Best-Paid Graduates?
Newly-released data from PayScale, a site that collects...
ECONOMIX.BLOGS.NYTIMES.COM|BY CATHERINE RAMPELL
August 30 at 5:50pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I gave you some homework assignments - I suggest you do them.
August 30 at 5:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman One of the articles that I failed to link, I guess, was about Google and how it doesn't care about where students come from.
August 30 at 5:50pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell This may be lost on some, but no matter ...
August 30 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, I've read that article. Hilarious. More true of Google than Hedge funds, but at google for a long time if you weren't Stanford you were looked askance, as ran the stereotype.
August 30 at 5:52pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell (And no, that doesn't mean I agree with Daniel.)
August 30 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Beitia's article seems to indicate that a student's choice of major does make a bit of difference on what type of salary you get.
"Majors matter. Quantitative-oriented degrees – like engineering, science, mathematics and economics — filled most of the top 20 slots in both highest starting median salaries and highest mid-career median salaries."
August 30 at 5:52pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Who is going to put this into a word doc or sth. so I can read it at the beach like a penny novel?
August 30 at 5:53pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Just start paying attention to where elite members of society's degrees come from. Look at career services and what info top ten national liberal arts colleges and national U.s give re where they place graduates.
August 30 at 5:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman If my Father is "Daddy Warbucks" and he and all ancestors and all his friends and their ancestors went to CMC then, yep, that is why I am getting hired by one of his friends.
August 30 at 5:54pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Or do I mean a penny dreadful?
August 30 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Talk to any national leader in virtually any field of any kind.
August 30 at 5:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Talk to any parent cognizant of how the top rung in any field of any mind in America works.
August 30 at 5:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, your argument is predicated upon the notion that the people that are in those schools, by and large, aren't already connected, and I don't by that.
August 30 at 5:55pm · Unlike · 2
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Katherine Gardner By this I obviously mean the whole The Neverending Thread. (I love that you can tag it within itself.)
August 30 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Talk to anyone who has worked in Wall Street for more than 5 seconds.
August 30 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman yeah, their fathers worked their too.
August 30 at 5:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman and uncles.
August 30 at 5:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird So, based on these points and articles, it seems that the magic combination to Get a Good Job is nepotism, an Ivy League/top tier school, and a desirable degree. Am I summarizing the arguments appropriately?
August 30 at 5:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman and their white.
August 30 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And believe, because it is comforting, that what very one tells you is merely nepotism and has nothing to do with top tier undergraduate degrees.
It's not your fault you don't know this stuff. There is no shame in that. But it is the way it is.
August 30 at 5:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, if one wants to be a hedge-fund manager, then one's best chances are to be born to one.
August 30 at 5:57pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Katherine: I think I'm going to try to put it in a word doc format and then pdf. But I can only do that when the thread ends and I don't think this thread will ever end... it seems to be eternal.
August 30 at 5:57pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman If one wants to be a professional (doctor, lawyer, teacher, etc.) then by and large undergrad does not matter, graduate school, more so.
August 30 at 5:57pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia In America, anyone can be whatever he or she wants. Hey, even Daniel Lendman can become president
August 30 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^not true.
August 30 at 5:58pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have met "Ivy Leaguers" who get the cushy jobs, and I am even friends with some. They are smart, no doubt. They also got good educations. But they get hired because of their connections. That is just the way the world works.
August 30 at 6:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman My chances for being president were slim to begin with. They diminish proportionately to the time I spend on this thread. I am doomed.
August 30 at 6:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman At least insofar as being president is concerned.
August 30 at 6:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Hey, at least you're tall. I'm waaaaay below the Mendoza line
August 30 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I will also grant that certain names have a kind of mystique about them, but for most professionals, at least according to the above posted reports and research, it matters little.
August 30 at 6:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley and hedge funds are eeeevil
August 30 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman to boot!!!^^
August 30 at 6:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's generally the case in engineering related fields that a good graduate degree (MA) is more important than a good bachelors.
August 30 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Megan, you could do volumes.
August 30 at 6:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially since the first couple years of undergrad are generally taught by graduate students anyways, rather than by them famous professors.
August 30 at 6:06pm · Like
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Megan Baird In my profession, the choice of graduate school matters a little but it's more about the degree you have. Most libraries (unless they're trying to cut budgets) won't hire any professional librarians with any degree less than a Master's.
August 30 at 6:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Although it's also true in engineering fields that a Ph.D. is often bad for job prospects because it makes employers think you won't be happy with little boring tasks)
August 30 at 6:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson All that is true, but if you think it is not beneficial to go to Harvey Mudd or Stanford or MIT undergrad you're nuts.
August 30 at 6:07pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman For grad school, of course!
August 30 at 6:08pm · Like
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Megan Baird Katherine: what I need is a word/pdf file that automatically updates itself as new replies are added to the thread. That would be really amazing.
August 30 at 6:08pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I put Stanford and MIT aside above, mostly because their undergrad programs are generally as difficult as a masters degree
August 30 at 6:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ARE YOU EFFING CRAZY?
August 30 at 6:08pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Peterson, I think you're absolutely right about that.
August 30 at 6:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson A Stanford engineering degree is only good for GRAD SCHOOL?
August 30 at 6:09pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, in Texas at least, the better schools (Texas A&M and UT) generally let you do the first two years at Podunk Community College and guarantee admisison.
August 30 at 6:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman BS in engineering does not mean much.
August 30 at 6:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson An MIT ENGINEERING DEGREE is only good for GRAD SCHOOL?!?!?!!?!?
August 30 at 6:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What engineering firm is going to hire you?
August 30 at 6:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Your undergrad certainly helps with where you go to grad school. One has better connections.
August 30 at 6:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and, my Aunt in Ohio told me that an Associates degree in Machining will pretty much guarantee a $90,000 job as a machinist: the supply / demand ratio right now is pretty lopsided in favor of the employee.
August 30 at 6:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia read the article I linked above. It shows salaries for people who ONLY have an undergrad degree
August 30 at 6:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You know, I was never once upset with The Peregrine in all his Dragon level trolling. But you have, for the very first time in all this thread, trolled me emotionally.
And for that you deserve an award.
August 30 at 6:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman A student at MIT at the top of the class in engineering will likely be able to get into the graduate level at MIT. Most of the others will have to go somewhere else.
August 30 at 6:12pm · Like
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Liam Collins the majority of engineering undergrads at WSU find engineering jobs in Wichita while they're on campus, and a large portion of these roll directly on after graduation.
August 30 at 6:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Liam Collins just sayin'
August 30 at 6:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman MS is the new BS. Fact.
August 30 at 6:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No one is saying that you can't get jobs otherwise, but this ruthless avoidance of the reality of top tier education and job placement in this country is mind blowing.
August 30 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia A bachelors (and nothing else) from MIT gets an average starting salary of over 70K, with a career median salary of over 120k. BACHELOR'S
August 30 at 6:13pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman But since we are providing reasoned arguments and documentation, we don't really fit the troll label.
August 30 at 6:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know if Daniel would admit it, but I think there are one or two schools for each field that make a difference.
August 30 at 6:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, no denying that.
August 30 at 6:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia LOOK at the salaries for JUST a BA. Harvey Mudd does pretty freaking well
August 30 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah, for that kind of thing people will often go to Mudd over Ivies.
August 30 at 6:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia No there are ten schools that make all the difference
August 30 at 6:15pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.slate.com/.../tech_company_feeder_schools...
Googlers Are From Stanford, Applers Are From San Jose State
The next issue of Wired, on newsstands May 27, has an...
SLATE.COM
August 30 at 6:15pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../where-did-google-apple...
Where Did Google And Apple Employees Go To College?
More young people would want to work for Google than...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
August 30 at 6:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley The other problem with those statistics, though, is that the conclusion presupposes that the future will be like the past. And I think Daniel has been trying to argue that that just isn't true at this point in time.
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahahaa
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/04/30/get-rich-u
Get Rich U. - The New Yorker
Stanford University is so startlingly paradisial, so fragrant and sunny, it’s as if you could eat from the trees and live...
NEWYORKER.COM
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ok. Google is fixated on Stanford. Check.
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.independent.co.uk/.../the-billionaire-factory...
The billionaire factory: Why Stanford University produces so many celebrated...
INDEPENDENT.CO.UK
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like
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John Kunz Article III.
Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;— between a State and Citizens of another State,—between Citizens of different States,—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
Section. 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
August 30 at 6:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "In general, engineering schools produced the best starting salaries, and represented eight out of the top 10 schools in starting salary. On the other hand, Ivy League Schools are the best bet for mid-career pay, with five out of the top 10."
AND THIS IS BACHELORS ONLY
August 30 at 6:17pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Being a googler, though, isn't really a "get rich quick" scheme.
August 30 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Sure, they pay well, but any number of tech firms pay equivalent salaries.
August 30 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (and, while y'all are arguing, my dad (a TAC grad) got a job offer from Microsoft)
August 30 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So that last article seems to support a version of my nepotism theory.
August 30 at 6:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley My cousin, who graduated from Franciscan, is working at Amazon
August 30 at 6:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So...... St. Louis cut Michael Sam.....
when's the lawsuit?
August 30 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This entire article is based on the premise that it is shocking a student from Duke would even get an interview from Goldman:
http://www.businessinsider.com/college-students-recruited...
How A Duke Undergrad With No Finance Background Got Lured By Goldman Sachs
Highly indebted, with no clear career direction, Laura...
BUSINESSINSIDER.COM
August 30 at 6:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Plus, 90,000 in silicon valley is barely a living wage.
August 30 at 6:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Nepotism.
August 30 at 6:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have a friend from Steubenville who went to Franciscan and is working for Microsoft.
August 30 at 6:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley There's some Anecdata for you.
August 30 at 6:19pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I have never said that you can't get into these places by other means, but the willful refusal to acknowledge the practical benefits of a top tier school is just beyond the pale.
August 30 at 6:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or off the fucking rails
August 30 at 6:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Goldman Sachs and apparently Google are very foolish, because if they altered their hiring practices they could find equally educated and capable individuals who would likely work for less.
August 30 at 6:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "It is a lot easier to go inside the house through the front door"
"what do you mean!! I can climb on the roof and go through a window!!!"
August 30 at 6:21pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier school.
August 30 at 6:21pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Well-paying computer jobs have a relatively low bar for entry
August 30 at 6:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman For the record: I willfully acknowledge the practical benefits of going to a top tier school.
August 30 at 6:21pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Often because the kind of people who are into computers are generally also out to get the man.
August 30 at 6:22pm · Like
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Megan Baird There had better not be a lawsuit. Sam got cut due to relative mediocrity not due to his sexual orientation.
August 30 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And I haven't even said it doesn't make sense that things be this way: it does in many ways. These schools act as a gigantic filtration system that makes things easy for the business and organizations in question.
Most of these kids in high school or junior high would be far better employees than TAC grads and most are far more naturally gifted, of course.
I do think we get shafted, at the end of the day, but...
August 30 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I just don't think the benefit is due to the level of education.
August 30 at 6:22pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, in most cases these people are not related. It derives directly from how the school is perceived by employers, to be sure.
August 30 at 6:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman TAC students, in general are not great employees. We are more suited to management,
August 30 at 6:23pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahaha
August 30 at 6:23pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahahahaha
August 30 at 6:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hey I resemble that!
August 30 at 6:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia HEY!
August 30 at 6:24pm · Like
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Megan Baird Daniel: I find that really amusing considering that I am actually a manager of sorts. I find that power suits me well.
August 30 at 6:24pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia middle management philosopher kings
August 30 at 6:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No doubt due to the role model of our tutors, who are all excellent managerial/political types, and to the training in leadership we receive there, and the fact we are all there with fellow type A types who are striving to compete, and to the campus culture which is clearly trying to cultivate managers and leaders - except. Hm.
OK, so in some qualified way in some respect, maybe. Hah. Maybe.
August 30 at 6:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Philosopher kings, dude
August 30 at 6:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But most recent college graduates SHOULD be getting my coffee, which would also larn them the first lesson they need to larn.
August 30 at 6:26pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Oh shiz.
August 30 at 6:27pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar -
Matthew J. Peterson,
I'm glad a TAC degree doesn't lend itself to worldly success. In fact I'm rather sorry the school was accredited.
Other than being able to making a living wage, why do you care.
August 30 at 6:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Someone just asked me to be friends on Facebook.
August 30 at 6:27pm · Like · 4
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Megan Baird Why would you be sorry that it's accredited?
August 30 at 6:27pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
Because it changed the type of kids who applied to the school
August 30 at 6:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia could it be...... could it be the troll we all know and love?
August 30 at 6:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Anyone know a "Scott Weinberg"?
August 30 at 6:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia pick me. pick me!
August 30 at 6:29pm · Like
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Megan Baird ME. He tried to befriend me too!
August 30 at 6:29pm · Like
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Megan Baird Franklin: So what "type" of kids are now applying to TAC?
August 30 at 6:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley And if you really want a get rich scheme, I think the oil business in the Dakotas is the place to be.
August 30 at 6:29pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Especially if you had bought up all the property a couple years ago)
August 30 at 6:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia was, you're late now
August 30 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia DO IT PETERSON!!!
August 30 at 6:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia do it.....
August 30 at 6:31pm · Like
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Megan Baird I sense that the Peregrine might be ready to make a reappearance. From the ashes, the Peregrine arises...much like the Phoenix of old.
August 30 at 6:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia do. it.
August 30 at 6:31pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
Megan Baird,
Perhaps it would have been better to say that not being accredited acted as a filter.
August 30 at 6:31pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger NOOOOOO
August 30 at 6:32pm · Like
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Megan Baird I'm curious - what type of students do you think TAC is attracting now?
August 30 at 6:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia come on, Matthew J. Peterson, what else do you have to do on a Saturday night? Save up for a jet pack?
August 30 at 6:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson My wife and kids are out of town, so...
August 30 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Will The PEREGRINE RETURN?
August 30 at 6:37pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET 10000
August 30 at 6:37pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I will stay up as long as it takes to see this thread reach 10000.
August 30 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 10000 is right around the corner
August 30 at 6:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you know. He could be out for revenge. . . .
August 30 at 6:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TNET 4-evah
August 30 at 6:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I fear no e-troll!
August 30 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . AND GET TNET shut down. . . .
August 30 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hmmm.....
August 30 at 6:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger do you feel lucky?
August 30 at 6:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, I'm broke and this is as close to free entertainment as it gets, so why not?
August 30 at 6:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . .troll trolling punk?
August 30 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I can even imagine the Eastwood voice.....
August 30 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "now was that 5 comments, or 6? to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I've forgotten myself"
August 30 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird "Make my day."
August 30 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm going to go pretend to have a life for a little bit.... we'll see......
August 30 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am going to have to do something i havent had to do in a long time . . . .
August 30 at 6:49pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's my "identical twin" brother separated from birth you are talking about. He represents the Eastern Catholic side of the family. His ancestors were conversoes. My ancestors remained jewish.
I'm making this up. He was a character in a draft novella. I was born before email. I did not know you couldn't create fb characters. Not knowing is a beautiful excuse.
August 30 at 6:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Does anyone have any questions?
August 30 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson THE PEREGRINE RETURNS
August 30 at 6:50pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET 10000
August 30 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird But what The Peregrine espoused, you believe, correct?
August 30 at 6:51pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger [is that him, guys?]
August 30 at 6:51pm · Like
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Megan Baird Yes, John, it really is.
August 30 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You're back!! Our substitute troll was mean, and he lacked commitment.
August 30 at 6:53pm · Unlike · 3
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Megan Baird Michael Beitia: The Peregrine has returned.
August 30 at 6:53pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger thanks, Samantha
August 30 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can I say something about prestige, or as we call it in academia, pedigree?
August 30 at 6:55pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts, Samantha.
August 30 at 6:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Do I totally espouse the beliefs of the Peregrine? Not totally, no. And not his "personality" totally, either. He would frequently say things like "do not put words in my mouth." He is a pen name: a true converso to the Catholic Faith, still angry that some Romans from the IVth crusade sacked hotel rooms in Byzantium. Thank you for asking. Any more questions? Any political questions? Any question is okay with me.
August 30 at 6:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe PhDs from top grad schools (barring diversity hires) get ALL THE JOBS. These days, there are so few jobs that even crappy little jobs go to PhDs from fancy schools.
August 30 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks, Megan. That was more of a preamble then actually asking for permission, but I appreciate your interest. : )
August 30 at 6:57pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Haha, sorry.
August 30 at 6:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And the graduate students at the top grad schools almost all come from schools with highly, *highly* connected professors
August 30 at 6:57pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb was a total anomaly. The rest of his cohort came from schools with very highly regarded philosophy departments
August 30 at 6:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The upshot of this, is that if you go to Yale or Princeton as an undergrad and study philosophy, you have an almost incalculable advantage over us poor TAC lovers of wisdom. INCALCULABLE
August 30 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Baird And let's not forget the diversity hiring... that plays a big part too. If you're African American or Hispanic, that gives you a leg up. I'm not lying. I've seen it play out in the hiring process out here.
August 30 at 7:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, if you ever want to get a job
August 30 at 7:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What about in the private sector though? I think in the private sector, your success rises or falls on if you can bring in money, and hopefully what you do is good and virtuous. TAC really helped me in a couple of key ways, even despite the fact that I could not get past the first year.
August 30 at 7:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe a tenure-track job, that is
August 30 at 7:01pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, and the reason they are all freaked about diversity is because these places are full of similar white peeps
August 30 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Agreed. The magic combination for a great job is coming from a top tier school, having connections, and a "popular" (i.e. sought after) major/degree.
August 30 at 7:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Coming from the top tier school gets you those connections
August 30 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, in academia too your success will eventually depend on what you do/how you perform.
August 30 at 7:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You don't have to be born with them, once you've managed to get into a top tier school. Of course, being born with them helps you get into the top tier school.
August 30 at 7:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But in the private sector you have a lot more opportunity getting in at top tier schools obviously. The jobsters come to you.
August 30 at 7:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Eventually, although if you have a fancy degree and a fancy advisor who loves you, you have a much better chance to get a 2/2 tenure track job right out of the gate
August 30 at 7:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe then you have more time and resources and support for publishing, which makes it easier for you to publish and publish well
August 30 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I just marvel at the person and the society where the truly good person can rise. So many good people get kicked around. Maybe that's a bit like boot camp. Don't know if anyone knows Maggie Wynne. She's a good example of the good rising.
August 30 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yep, and as I said, anyone who has seen the career office at a place like Princeton in action will weep hot tears of jealousy and despair over what TAC has to offer.
August 30 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, can we TACers climb on the roof, smash through a skylight, and arrive at the party looking a bit flustered and as though we don't belong? Some of us can. But it sure is a whole lot easier to get invited and go through the front door, you know?
August 30 at 7:07pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This example is especially relevant for TAC grads since so many of us would really love to be philosophers or theologians or some such.
August 30 at 7:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Some can, to some degree. But many don't want to or have no idea what the terrain looks like.
The good news is we could, I think, relatively easily propel up multiple levels in ranking and in terms of job placement if we had the will and the resources.
August 30 at 7:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The first step is making sure everyone see what is.
August 30 at 7:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You gotta know the score.
August 30 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Canucks 2 Bruins 1
August 30 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But I'm not sure institutionally or among grads if the will is there.
August 30 at 7:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yep. The tutors back in our day were shocked, SHOCKED that Caleb only got into one of the top schools he applied to. What they didn't know was that it was a miracle he got accepted that that one at all.
August 30 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott Weinberg: I think good people can rise, but yes a they've always been kicked around.
August 30 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know if it's fixable, but our applicants to grad school will always be very hampered by the tutors' lack of connections
August 30 at 7:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They themselves will admit they have No idea what it looks like out there at all. And institutionally they refuse to take responsibility for so knowing.
August 30 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And of course by the fact that we don't know how to write papers that read like acceptable academic papers
August 30 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think you've got to get kicked around a bit, not that I advocate kicking, to build character.
August 30 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But grads don't seem to care. What they do after really depends on what they know or is expected from their families, and TAC does nothing to encourage or assist those who are unaware of what they could do.
August 30 at 7:11pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
August 30 at 7:11pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Agreed, Samantha. TAC definitely needs to help students develop more acceptable academic papers. The writing preceptorial/lessons aren't sufficient. And we need to write more. I was not remotely prepared for the amount of writing I needed to do in grad school.
August 30 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Michael Beitia should be researching or teaching at a top 100 college or U and consulting with a business.
August 30 at 7:12pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: nothing I've said involves changing the program at all.
August 30 at 7:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I don't know of any professional setting I've been in where I have not found my core beliefs in some way challenged fundamentally, but what do I know. Looking back, it is not bad to place yourself in those environments if that's where your job search takes you.
August 30 at 7:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I agree. Hard Knocks are the best post undergrad teacher.
August 30 at 7:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I have no problem with changing the program--even if that wasn't your focus. I do wonder, however, what it is you're looking for. Fame, glory, influence, wealth, prestige?
August 30 at 7:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Excellence.
August 30 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm talking about worldly success here, is what I'm talking about.
August 30 at 7:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mammon, baby.
August 30 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Arete. Do you really think the Ivy League can give that?
August 30 at 7:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Arête
See Translation
August 30 at 7:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What is worldly success?
August 30 at 7:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But seriously, what about influence within the culture?
August 30 at 7:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What about a place within mainstream academia?
August 30 at 7:17pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You have to have what the culture doesn't have to have meaningful influence within the culture.
August 30 at 7:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's true. I'm not saying TAC should become the Ivy Leagues
August 30 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Without true arete, you will not change the culture; it will change you.
August 30 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Mainstream academia is, for the most part, a joke.
August 30 at 7:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm saying, if some of our graduates want to get PhDs in philosophy that might ever land them tenure track jobs, they need more help than TAC is going to get them
August 30 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I never said the Ivy League can give that.
It does practically, however, as people are often pushed to do their best. We need more of that spirit.
We have people who are working crap jobs who could be doing much more - for themselves, their families, and the world.
We could be in the world at work, not self-consigned to some ghetto.
We could be starting our students out light years above where they are now, setting them up better for life, giving them the opportunity to excel at what they are best at.
Instead - well, it is shameful to me.
August 30 at 7:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I think you can be a part of the culture without being absorbed by it. I did feel, as much as I loved TAC, that it was lacking a little in practical skills. For example, the writing aspect at the college didn't really prepare me for what I faced at graduate school. I don't recommend changing the program - i wouldn't want the school to lose its identity - but maybe tweaking some elements to better prepare students for graduate studies.
August 30 at 7:19pm · Like
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Megan Baird Of course, I could be totally off-base in my recommendations...
August 30 at 7:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The writing program is very weak, but it should not be oriented to writing better graduate school papers.
August 30 at 7:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson These student need jobs! They have a great education that could easily get them more than it does.
August 30 at 7:20pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And if you want to tell a bunch of kids that studying theology and metaphysics is the highest and best thing you can do, great. But then not to consider it your job as a institution to help them out at all along that career path? That's ridiculous.
August 30 at 7:21pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson This is a solvable problem without "selling out."
August 30 at 7:22pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond No, that is not the school's job; and were they to make it their job, they would be sending a contradictory message to the students.
August 30 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond One has to desire the education for its own sake if it is to be of any real value. As soon as you start looking at it instrumentally, it's all over.
August 30 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The fact is, a very small percentage of TACers aspire to continue in philosophy or theology.
August 30 at 7:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahaha. Well, it's a hard saying for all the people who wander needlessly for years afterwards.
August 30 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Not all who wander are lost.
August 30 at 7:24pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I'm not sure what practical help TAC could give for people wanting to get into engineering or law or medicine.
August 30 at 7:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Christendom is more of a writer's college. But I had a boss in DC who tried to destroy my "career" because she was an ideologue who opposed what she thought the college's charter meant and stood for. I think Harvard and Princeton and other places would benefit from the TAC alum, but they probably oppose what they think it stands for. That makes it tough. It's very political. You need to be very lucky to make it in this world, especially if you want to dig gold or make wine.
August 30 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It doesn't have to change one's approach to the education. It just means a number of practical steps and offices set up outside of the education. This ain't rocket science.
August 30 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The key word is "outside." It cannot be a part of the institution if the institution is to be what it professes to be.
August 30 at 7:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I think the idea that the institution can teach impressionable youth and then take no responsibility for the context in which they teach them a bit much.
The truth is, we are all so ignorant of what these steps are it is really and truly shameful. There is no will or understanding of the world in which we live.
And this is why we fail.
But it is early on.
August 30 at 7:27pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell If I understand the argument, it sounds like rubbish to me. Having a career placement office on the campus (and a sector of that devoted to those who want advanced degrees) wouldn't compromise anything that TAC is doing.
August 30 at 7:27pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The point is to perfect the intellect. To gain a treasure that one can carry away in a shipwreck. Then, if one wants a different kind of treasure, one can seek it. But to mix the two would be to destroy the true treasure.
August 30 at 7:28pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill What is needed is the creation of a strategy consulting firm that specializes in systems engineering, analysis (quantitative and qualitative), LEAN/agile process improvement and implementing best practices. If you hired folk from programs like tac you would have the right skillset for such diverse analytical work
August 30 at 7:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson These students are capable of competing. They do so Anyhow, on their own!
August 30 at 7:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Exactly. So why the worry?
August 30 at 7:29pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger Conforming to the neg-otium or a-scholia of the world has in part ruined the universities.
August 30 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Engineering students are mostly incapable of seeing the big picture, acting as a consultant to engineers is a great business
August 30 at 7:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Gown cannot be town and still be gown.
August 30 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Would it be a Götzendämmerung to have a person on campus devoted to preparing those for the GRE who want to take it?
August 30 at 7:30pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond One can buy a prep book. No need to further lower tutor salaries to pay someone to read a prep book to the students.
August 30 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson WHY HELP STUDENTS OBTAIN BETTER AND STABLE EMPLOYMENT?!?
August 30 at 7:31pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond It is accidental to the real work.
August 30 at 7:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe WHat? What contradictory message would they send?
August 30 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I offered to be at the career day a few years ago but mark never got me on the list.
August 30 at 7:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Let them go to graduate school and suffer for years because they have no idea of very basic information that could help them and their large families in a real sense for the rest of their lives.
August 30 at 7:33pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The education is not ordered to success in the world.
August 30 at 7:33pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond That is a straw man, Matthew.
August 30 at 7:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It doesn't have to be ordered to it for the school to acknowledge that it plays some part in their graduate's future happiness
August 30 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe By your argument any sort of institutional career support would be a betrayal of the college's ethos
August 30 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Unless you want students to be successful and donate back to the college...
August 30 at 7:34pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The contradiction is this: You cannot genuinely present yourself as a liberal arts institution and at the same time orient toward worldly success.
August 30 at 7:34pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You're right. They should do nothing practical for their graduates.
The funny thing is, there is no classical school ever that did such a thing to its students.
August 30 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell That's rubbish. William & Mary. Washington & Lee. Colby. Plenty of schools do it.
August 30 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe TAC is in NO danger of doing that. They could pay a lot, lot more attention to the practical and still not be "oriented toward worldly success"
August 30 at 7:35pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond You seem to be saying that TAC is such a school.
August 30 at 7:35pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond William and Mary does not provide a liberal arts education, despite their propaganda.
August 30 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The medieval degrees were all part of practical jobs one could get after. The ancient and other sorts were for those with the wealth and connections for after.
August 30 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell St. John's College in Annapolis.
August 30 at 7:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The school just doesn't know how to practically apply to real work
August 30 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The way it seems to me we have a too easy time of conforming. Not conforming is harder. That' s my experience.
August 30 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^not relevant^^
August 30 at 7:36pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'll say it one more time: you don't have to change the educational program one bit to take steps to help students get jobs (and assist in the success of the college as well.)
August 30 at 7:37pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill And they do not have a separately funded office that understands business enough on how to apply to the current challenges in the business world
August 30 at 7:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think you are mistaken. You would have to change the orientation even if you changed nothing formally in the curriculum.
August 30 at 7:38pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Where did you go to school Jeffrey? With whom did you study? How did this lead to your own success?
August 30 at 7:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What success?
August 30 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey-- do you oppose TAC grads attempting to get jobs? Would this be a betrayal of their devotion to knowledge per se?
August 30 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Not at all.
August 30 at 7:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Which Jeffrey?
August 30 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Using the distinction between practical and speculative to dodge the issue is the usual game, and tiresome.
There is no example of this in medieval history. St. Thomas Aquinas did not teach in this kind of absurd context, not did Aristotle.
It is a load of crap.
August 30 at 7:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Which what?
August 30 at 7:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The one who is saying nonsense stuff. Not you Jeff Neill.
August 30 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger What is success?
August 30 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If graduates are allowed to be concerned about their job prospects after graduation, why should the college not be allowed to be so, to some moderate degree?
August 30 at 7:41pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond We were not talking about medieval history.
August 30 at 7:41pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I withdraw the question about success. I'm just curious about where you went to school and with whom you studied. I seem to recall that you took a different path than the one you're proposing for the youth.
August 30 at 7:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The medieval institutions were degree mills for people going into medicine, law, and the Church. The Church was one of the largest employers around.
So you tell me, Jeffrey Bond: that practically orientated context produced St. Thomas Aquinas and his textbook.
Why can't our graduates get institutional help to continue on practically?
August 30 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond B.A. from Kenyon College. M.A. and Ph.D. from the University of Chicago. Never took a different path than the one I am proposing.
August 30 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Aristotle would never have written the Ethics if he wasn't trying to influence young leaders/nobles.
August 30 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I once had a "boss" who googled the Christendom mission statement, and based on that -- even though I was a total wall-flower -- decided I was on a secret crusade to "restore all things to Christ" which meant everything the world misrepresents about the Faith. But I've always thought Christendom could tone it down a bit.
August 30 at 7:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond We are talking about a liberal arts college, not medical school or law school.
August 30 at 7:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, and?
August 30 at 7:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg TAC is not "just" a liberal arts college though.
August 30 at 7:45pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Like I said, I have no problem discussing changes in the TAC curriculum, but the desire to make the school more oriented to worldly success would destroy it.
August 30 at 7:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You went to Kenyon and the University of Chicago?? You are no longer allowed to talk, sir.
August 30 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No one is talking about changing its fundamental orientation
August 30 at 7:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I guess it depends how you define success.
August 30 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, are we allowed to have a career office at all? Or only if it remains ineffectual?
August 30 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Not being a cradle Catholic, I knew nothing about TAC or what it represented. Thankfully there was still a shadow of liberal arts education at Kenyon and the University of Chicago. So I know something of both worlds.
August 30 at 7:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm keenly aware of the problems at The Other - but I don't accept the idea that being cognizant and active about these issues means one has to alter one's contemplative orientation. Probably would only sharpen it, given that none of the contemplative authors we read acted in some context less vaccuum I pure contemplation.
August 30 at 7:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond That is your straw man representation of my position, but not my position at all.
August 30 at 7:48pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is not just a contemplative orientation. It is a complete dedication to perfecting the intellect quite apart from any practical gain that comes from that. As it turns out, such an education has tremendous practical consequences. But once you begin to make that your goal, liberal education will die.
August 30 at 7:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The problem is the skillset taught is directly applicable to a number of jobs but either the school is unaware how to market to fill the void -- I do not believe that the school believes that being practical should never result from the theoretical
August 30 at 7:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It seems to me that a stronger Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association would be better than a career office
August 30 at 7:54pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed.
August 30 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially if it involved some kind of nepotistic hiring practices
August 30 at 7:55pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill The other Jeff seems to say that theoretical would cease if ever steered toward the practical
August 30 at 7:55pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It would no longer be theoretical by definition.
August 30 at 7:55pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Many great poets at Kenyon over the years, too.
August 30 at 7:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I would gladly be nepotistic... I'm working on getting to that roll
August 30 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's only the case if one tried to be practical and theoretical in one act.
August 30 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well personally, I went to TAC because I wanted to make a lot of money. That's why I became a teacher.
August 30 at 7:56pm · Unlike · 5
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Jeffrey Bond As it is, there is not enough time in four years to do what needs to be done in terms of liberal education.
August 30 at 7:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, graduate degree in philosophy is where the big bucks are.
August 30 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley TACers are practical enough to aviod gendeer/woman studies degrees, though
August 30 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Many of you see the institution only from the perspective of a student who leaves wondering how to translate his education into making a living. But to see the institution from the inside is to be acutely aware of how little time there is to do what the school proposes to do.
August 30 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think there's a psychological aspect as well. When I got kicked out of TAC a second time (for lack of intelligence and bad manners) it took a while to find a path that was aligned with the good I discovered there. I always just wanted to go back to the Shire. I do not know if this is psychological or because there is no connection between truth and the world. But everyone does find a way. I think there is an integration... a Word becoming flesh kind of thing.
August 30 at 7:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Also, I notice that Scott Weinberg has dragged his new hide back to The Threadness. Is he being nicer now? Will he tolerate some perfectly reasonable and serious questions about didactic poetry once the 67th installment of the discussion on TAC's curriculum is over?
August 30 at 7:59pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell My choice was between the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester and TAC. I would not trade my education at TAC for anything, but with an eye on my later prospects for a Philosophy Ph.D. and a job, I probably should have gone to Holy Cross.
August 30 at 7:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes! And I need to know if free verse is okay.
August 30 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Well, you have said it all Daniel. Why would you not trade your TAC education for anything? Even for a Ph.D.? But a more practical orientation would not have given you the same education.
August 30 at 8:01pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The subsequent tension with the world is a sign that the student has been changed, and changed for the better.
August 30 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond A comfortable transition to the world would be deadly, and not even possible if the education has been real.
August 30 at 8:02pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell No. I just wished that someone would have prepared me more for graduate school and given me better advice. Not all of us score perfectly on the GRE and have our pick of Ivy League programs in Philosophy.
August 30 at 8:02pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg There's either a stark oil and water relationship between a TAC formation and some other things, or there's a pending illumination to be discovered. Either/or, it seems to me.
August 30 at 8:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What could someone have done for you? Like Dorothy, you had to find out for yourself.
August 30 at 8:03pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nice analogy. You know Oz was a Socialist paradise.
August 30 at 8:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, man crucified on a yellow brick cross of gold.
August 30 at 8:04pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Which doesn't bother me, of course ...
August 30 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Speaking of writing, I had dinner at TAC with this guy (I think) http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/about/r-scott-turicchi once. He related to us that his company had once done an essay competition and that the essays of TACers were obviously better than everyone else's
August 30 at 8:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The school should do a lot more writing. When I was there the students wrote only a few papers the entire year.
August 30 at 8:05pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I dunno about that. Writing takes a lot of time and junior/senior year are pretty time-demanding as it is.
August 30 at 8:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I found the transition to graduate-level writing to be more a matter of applying myself to actually writing than learning some foreign skill.
August 30 at 8:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley (I wouldn't claim, however, that I'm particularly good at it: but neither are most academics nowadays. I know, I edit for an academic journal)
August 30 at 8:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Some of the articles I used to edit for the Review (and before that for the ACPQ) were atrocious. No, not some: many.
August 30 at 8:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The problem of bad academic writing is real, but I'm talking about the problem TAC grads will have when they send their "writing samples" to grad schools.
August 30 at 8:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Were the tutors unwilling to read those samples before you sent them off?
August 30 at 8:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Say more, I wasn't interested in any of the prestigious schools, so I don't have any experience.
August 30 at 8:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The tutor who was isn't there anymore.
August 30 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But, Ms. Zedlick helped me put alot of work into my writing sample, and I got into both schools I applied to.
August 30 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond So why not go to a different tutor? I'm not sure I understand the problem?
August 30 at 8:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Were they CUA and Ave?
August 30 at 8:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, CUA and UST.
August 30 at 8:14pm · Like · 1
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Brian Gerrity Couldn't agree more with MJP and Jeff Neill. I've always found some irony in the fact that the college is always quick to point out the success of some of their graduates in their publications as well as the admission office, but do so little to help them take that next step to get there.
August 30 at 8:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The tutors are overburdened already
August 30 at 8:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley (which probably explains why I was accepted)
August 30 at 8:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, well both of those are on the short list of places where good TAC students do seem able to get in
August 30 at 8:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I guess you guys seem to be able to get jobs at other small Catholic schools sometimes. But I'm sure I don't have to tell you its hella rough out there
August 30 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The sense I have, though, is that that's because fair number of TACers have been through those places and established a relatively good reputation
August 30 at 8:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Unlike Notre Dame which, for some reason, has decided they hate TAC grads.
August 30 at 8:15pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Unlike Notre Dame where they have apparently barred the gates against us
August 30 at 8:15pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Jinx!!
August 30 at 8:15pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley (although we now have Sean Kelsey inside)
August 30 at 8:15pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I can tell you the reason: NIETO
August 30 at 8:15pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Is this just a rumour? Quack thought it was because TACers generally just wanted to teach at TAC.
August 30 at 8:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that is complete and total nonsense
August 30 at 8:16pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Lol
August 30 at 8:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Mark Kretchmer does the best he can with what he has. The main problem is a tutor culture that doesn't see this as their job ever in any way shape or form and are almost all ignorant of how the system works.
We will continue to do better as we pump out more alumni and we do much better than many might expect.
August 30 at 8:16pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe This is true. The tutors also by and large have no idea how to write letters of recommendation
August 30 at 8:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is probably less true of some of the younger ones.
August 30 at 8:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley MacArthur told me what his letter was
August 30 at 8:18pm · Like
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Adrw Lng As someone who worked for the school for a few years I can tell you that Mark is completely overburdened, also has no direct experience with academia on the whole.
August 30 at 8:19pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley "You accepted so-and-so and gave him money and this dude is just as good as he was, so you should give him money too"
August 30 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But mostly, letters from people who have no connections are pretty much useless
August 30 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sounds about right
August 30 at 8:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course he is. They overburden all the "practical people."
August 30 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng There's also complete plurality of opinions among tutors about approaching academia.
August 30 at 8:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Like Tom Dillon.
August 30 at 8:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Once I obtained the degree in December, I've taught at some fair to decent schools and now a shmancy one. I love Claremont McKenna.
I'll likely never be hired there tenure track, because of my pedigree and the fact that these place don't eat their own like as opposed to---
August 30 at 8:24pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When I was applying to grad school, I was given information about ITI and Ave and that's it. I did 100% of the leg work myself. I got a lot of helpful advice from some of the younger tutors about what TAC would NOT be able to do for me.
August 30 at 8:21pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Writing is a good way to discover what's in your soul. The Logos is more than Reason. One of the things I've noticed is Christendom grads have this inescapable grasp of Christ, Logos, in His Church. I'm not saying writing is the answer, but I do think what TAC proposes is what I wished Christendom had much more of, because Reason is the material spouse of Logos, so to speak. I do not understand why TAC expels great future poets and statesmen because they aren't intelligent enough to do Euclid, or patient enough to everything becoming clear later on. Intelligence is broader than that. But, alas, I am biased. At least I am cheering for the Logos!
August 30 at 8:25pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I don't mean that ironically, it actually was helpful
August 30 at 8:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Boston College is another one that seems relatively open to TACers.
August 30 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng As a graduate student working at the college I got some very helpful opinions from some tutors about publishing and networking with other professors that I might be doing doctoral studies with it was actually pretty helpful. It helps a lot that I had a pretty distinct idea of what I was interested in studying and lots of motivation (bugging them lol)
August 30 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But with some time and effort publishing, I think I have a decent shot at a lot more than the small circle of usual suspects. But this is largely because I naturally have some skills already (and I don't have other skills that others do have) and that I've developed on my own over many years of learning the score the hard way.
Getting a tenure track job is harder these days than getting an entertainment deal done.
August 30 at 8:24pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley and they even give credit for studying with Duane Berquist.
August 30 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Let's write a movie about this. I know a great producer.
August 30 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond So is the problem just that tutors don't care about helping students get into graduate school by writing letters of recommendation for them? Is the problem that the students have to do all the work when it comes to where they go next?
August 30 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe All of the above.
August 30 at 8:25pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, it's kinda funny, Chris Decaen's two articles for the Thomist seem pretty widely read in Catholic philosophy circles.
August 30 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and more.
August 30 at 8:25pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond What's the more? Because at every institution the students have to find the professors who will help them to the next level. That is the nature of the beast.
August 30 at 8:26pm · Like
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Brian Gerrity The students should do most of them work, but I think the college should provide in assist in getting them on the right path.
August 30 at 8:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the real problem is that TAC is well established in the Catholic circles but isn't old enough to have a strong reputation outside of those circles.
August 30 at 8:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Who was it that sued mitre dame law for anti des rumination whan they discovered that he was from South Africa and was white skinned? It made some news back in the day.
August 30 at 8:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Norte dame law
August 30 at 8:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think the issue is the curriculum is too difficult in some areas, and needs a tad more of the easier, more important stuff... in my unbiased opinion.
August 30 at 8:27pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Sorry iphone
August 30 at 8:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Ray Tittman, I believe.
August 30 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The deeper problem here, I think, is a cartoon understanding of practical and speculative and a deep rooted insecurity and lack of excellence that prevents hiring tutors who would be able to tutor well and retain connection to the "outside."
August 30 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley So, if you're looking into prestigious Catholic institutions, you should be OK. (except Notre Dame) But we still need to make an impression on the larger academic world.
August 30 at 8:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What are the other prestigious Catholic institutions?
August 30 at 8:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Logos.
August 30 at 8:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg CUA
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley CUA has a pretty good reputation in Catholic circles
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe PhD granting, I mean
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^lol Samantha
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Wippel is basically the master of living Thomists
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond What is the non-cartoon understanding that you propose, Matthew? What is excellence according to this model?
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Noone is ridiculously well connected
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Institute of Phenomenology in Lichtenstein. jk
August 30 at 8:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Msgr. Sokolowski is Msgr. Catholic Phenomenology
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We might have different definitions of prestigious.
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The root problem to my mind is speculative: I think there is a problematic disdain for and unnatural separation of practical and speculative lurking about.
But you combine this with lack of competition and insular enclavism and no requirements for tutors to do much of anything besides seminar style classes and you stagnate.
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley I meant "prestigious qua Catholic"
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But if CUA places its grads in tenure track jobs then more power to them
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley not "prestigious and Catholic"
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The idea that you can't tutor well and write a few articles and books now and then as well is absurd. The two things can and should inform each other.
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Does it?
August 30 at 8:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://philosophy.cua.edu/placement.cfm
Job Placement
The majority of our Ph.D. graduates have gone on to tenure-track or permanent* positions at the post-secondary level, in the U.S. and abroad. Of those who have not, some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia (e.g., in medicine, in music, as a member of a religious order), and some have c…
PHILOSOPHY.CUA.EDU
August 30 at 8:30pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley "The majority of our Ph.D. graduates have gone on to tenure-track or permanent* positions at the post-secondary level, in the U.S. and abroad. Of those who have not, some have chosen to engage in work outside of academia (e.g., in medicine, in music, as a member of a religious order), and some have chosen to conduct their searches only in very restricted geographical areas. Thus, graduates of our program who engage in unrestricted job searches have excellent chances of finding a position teaching philosophy in a college or university. Most do so in four-year Catholic colleges or seminaries; some do so in Ph.D.-granting institutions or non-Catholic colleges."
August 30 at 8:30pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So what would be changed to right the ship of speculation/practice?
August 30 at 8:30pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think Loyola Marymount has some great philosophy people. Eric Perl. Gretchen Gusich, others.
August 30 at 8:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "*A “permanent” position here means a non-limited-term position at an institution that does not grant tenure, such as a seminary."
August 30 at 8:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Phenomenology does an end run around the moderns, but you need Christian philosophy to intregrate it with classical Aristhomism.
August 30 at 8:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What about recently? I mean, since the market tanked?
August 30 at 8:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Since 2009?
August 30 at 8:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Write some articles and books? Fine. But how does that change the relationship of theory and practice?
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They need to attract and hire better tutors, and keep them there. They need to let a bit of air out the chimney to keep the fire going.
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's dated 2010, I'm not sure about recently
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Christendom College has a prestigious online MA program in theology.
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But it's counting placement since 1991
August 30 at 8:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe New Scott is hilarious.
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't know the answer to that question, Samantha, TBH. Edward is more in the thick of things right now. I would say that if you want to do MEDIEVAL philosophy, and specifically Neoplatonism, you could do worse than study with Stephen Gersh at Notre Dame.
August 30 at 8:32pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I like him better than old Scott.
August 30 at 8:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, sure, Notre Dame. But they don't take us.
August 30 at 8:33pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Not the Philosophy department, but the Medieval Institute.
August 30 at 8:33pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Better tutors--who could disagree? How does that change the relationship of theory and practice?
August 30 at 8:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Actually, a TACer with a basically perfect application was told that "they find it better to make TACers wait a year before accepting them"
August 30 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't think she ever tried again, she got married and now lives in NYC
August 30 at 8:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe At the Medieval Institute?
August 30 at 8:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think it was ND phil.
August 30 at 8:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley but not exactly sure.
August 30 at 8:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe WHO?? Emily Sullivan?
August 30 at 8:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, Edward, you don't know if recent PhDs from CUA are getting tenure track jobs?
August 30 at 8:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley (NB, I have this all second-hand, but you've guessed who I'm talking about)
August 30 at 8:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think that was the philosophy department, but she can correct me if I'm wrong
August 30 at 8:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley No. John Brungardt was hired temporarily at Benedictine College and I think there's a chance that he'll get a further position.
August 30 at 8:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I got in there, too, but not in philosophy
August 30 at 8:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Christendom should have a medieval bestiary in its curriculum.
August 30 at 8:37pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But I haven't really been keeping up with the job-related stuff
August 30 at 8:38pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They need to think a bit harder about why it is that no college, ever, had such a disinterest institutionally for the practical. And no author we read thought or acted this way.
St. Thomas might have "published" so much it killed him. Aristotle was a pretty active dude, overseeing and engaging in all kinds of "practical" tasks.
The tutors need a kick in the ass. They need to be encouraged to continue their education and engage with others while there (it can be with other Thomists, etc.) They need a wider variety of tutors re their background and pedigree.
This doesn't mean that they lose their salt. But don't pretend to complain about how hard it is to find people other than your own grads when don't even advertise open positions. Bwhahaha...asinine.
This is one of the best job markets in history for potential tutors.
But note the ones who aren't content to simply read the books and tutor either leave or become upset - even when these "other activities" are actually helping to inform and being informed by their tutoring.
August 30 at 8:38pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Did you know that Christendom College still doesn't have a medieval bestiary in its curriculum?
August 30 at 8:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Shields was hired at Xavier College` but not sure if that's a tenure-track position
August 30 at 8:39pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley So, they have Shields and Furlan! Maybe we should just make a Great Books utopia in Cincinnati!
August 30 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Samantha: Here are the programs offered by the MI at ND, but the question I can't answer is WHO, among the Philosophy faculty would review one's application before admission, if one chose to apply in the area of Philosophy. http://medieval.nd.edu/people/faculty/faculty-by-field/
Faculty by Field // Medieval Institute // University of Notre Dame
The Medieval Institute at Notre Dame promotes research...
MEDIEVAL.ND.EDU|BY AGENCYND // UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME
August 30 at 8:41pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Taking a #DigitalSabbath friends. See you on the far side of 10,000.
August 30 at 8:41pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg TAC should not expel poets, though, even if they yell at the tutor.
August 30 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Fair enough. I know something of what you say from having been on the inside. But I don't think the problem is the disinterestedness in the practical. That is the school's strength.
August 30 at 8:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley (but my ongoing debate is should I pursue philosophy, or jump ship and get into computers)
August 30 at 8:45pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Honestly, the entire tutor model or the extent to which it is taken, is not in its extreme TAC form part of any of the great U's or academies of all time.
No research/publishing reqs of any kind? Ever? Even in and with circles of like minded others friendly to your cause - God forbid you wrestle with those who disagree professionally, like, you know, the greats we read and like the method we profess seems to suggest you should. Not only to stay fresh, but to pursue the truth I hear so much about.
August 30 at 8:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Did the medieval universities have "publishing requirements"?
August 30 at 8:46pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Most of the publishing we have from them are the equivalent of Dissertations and class notes.
August 30 at 8:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But don't get me wrong: love it dearly, will defend it to the death, and protect the shire at all costs.
August 30 at 8:47pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Most of Scotus, for example, is in the form of "reportationes" which are basically student transcriptions of lectures.
August 30 at 8:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: I'm not sure, but they all wrote more than any tutor. St. Thomas probably died from how hard he worked, and a large part of that was writing .
August 30 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley St. Thomas, as Dr. Noone has pointed out though, is the exception to the rule
August 30 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley He's one of the only medieval men who wrote in order to be read
August 30 at 8:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Aristotle seems not to have been prevented from pursuing the truth while writing and pursuing many research projects at the same time.
August 30 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley The tutors have plenty of "research projects" in some sense of the phrase
August 30 at 8:49pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Aristotle may well have be the world's greatest genius
August 30 at 8:50pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Nieto, for example, has been working on a comparison of Thomistic psychology with the findings of neurobiology for some time now.
August 30 at 8:50pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Some do, and I love them for it - because they "do" put of love and pursuit of excellence.
August 30 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Edward please pffft
August 30 at 8:50pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley ?
August 30 at 8:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But as you just said, Nieto is more exception than rule: most get lazy unless nudged.
August 30 at 8:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think you want more from one institution than any one institution can provide. You seem to both love it and hate it. I think its speculative orientation is absolutely correct for an undergraduate institution, but individual human weaknesses, some of which became "institutionalized," were a problem when I was there. I don't know about now.
August 30 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Coughlin has chaired sessions at the ACPA and has several Aristotle translations
August 30 at 8:51pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Just kidding.
August 30 at 8:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Physics published, De Anima in a complete draft)
August 30 at 8:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I thought Danny was teaching at a seminary
August 30 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And most academic publishing of the best time is writing for the sake of understanding. And for letting iron sharpen iron amongst experts.
This idea that in the "outside" at respected national liberal arts colleges teaching suffers on account of research is absurd. They have fantastic teachers - even at the method of TAC - of the highest quality. And the research reqs don't hold it back, unlike at the big Us.
August 30 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Maybe I'm mistaken, Samantha, but I remember him being hired at Xavier University
August 30 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Although, to be fair, some of the most respected researchers are less spectacular in the classroom (Wippel, for example)
August 30 at 8:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sokolowski, however, is amazing in the classroom
August 30 at 8:54pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Rule # 9,547 of the Christendom book of rules: A yelling poet gets at least one written warning before it even becomes an issue.
August 30 at 8:55pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng All of academica is broke
August 30 at 8:55pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The real problem with academia is contraception and NFP: not enough students to make jobs for all the freshly minted teachers.
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What is academia? The modern university? The encyclicals are not broke. Someone's getting something from somewhere.
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The world is broke Adrw
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We still have to live in it
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think you are mistaken, Matthew, about the tension between serious research and publishing (in the modern sense) and great teaching.
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Emily Sullivan When I started off in the honors program at Loyola in Baltimore someone met with you, as a freshman, the first week of school, someone met with you to ask if you planned to compete for the Rhodes or the Fullbright. Now I don't think TAC should be doing that, but like Samantha I found it nearly impossible to get good advice about grad school except from Adrw Lng
Sumer Fellowships that I got from Notre Dame, Boston U. ISI, grants from the Fund for Theological Education were all things I found on my own.If you're a student whose ambitious about pursuing grad school its likely that you'll get a pamphlet for Ave and CUA, but it doesn't seem to be that the school would betray its character by hiring someone who is really in the know to coach students who are ambitious.
August 30 at 8:56pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I wish a terminal MA was a viable career choice
August 30 at 8:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Edward, that is where you are wrong. The real problem is administrators.
August 30 at 8:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are modern science and medieval science oil and water? What's wrong with oil and water being oil and water?
August 30 at 8:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley That too.
August 30 at 8:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley I embrace a Catholic both/and, Samantha
August 30 at 8:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Christendom's online MA program does away with Administrators!
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley More students, fewer administrators and free scotch for everyone!
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I have to live in the world Samantha but not academia
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Online programs are a trick to educate people without teachers
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The modern universities are not universities at all. There is no "one-turning" because there is no agreement about first principles. It is a war for students, money, and prestige. No integration or understanding of the various disciplines and their relationship to one another. Chaos.
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley All you need is a bunch of people to run the computers
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley i.e. administrators
August 30 at 8:58pm · Like
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Adrw Lng TNET
August 30 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Why can't modern universities just be different than medieval first causes? Where's the rub?
August 30 at 9:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Getting rid of tension and letting people who don't even have to put the time into lectures or grading papers simply read books and talk about them with little to no fresh air is a surefire way to bring about dissolution.
August 30 at 9:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A war for students, money and prestiege? Do you think maybe the government is involved?
August 30 at 9:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's probably what everyone told MacArthur in the 60s and 70s
August 30 at 9:01pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Plenty of tension among the tutors at TAC, at least in the "old days." But the tendency to hire graduates of the school was, I think, a problem on a number of levels.
August 30 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And the TAC faculty has so devolved.
August 30 at 9:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What do philosophy departments teach these days? Sean Kelsey? He was the smartest guy.
August 30 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe On that, at least, we can agree Jeffrey
August 30 at 9:02pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Explain the devolution as you see it.
August 30 at 9:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But I still think something like what they do is ideal. It's just these little lies and strawmen - you can publish and it can help inform your pursuit of truth and teaching. By engaging you in dialectic throughout your career with peers.
August 30 at 9:03pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Does anyone think that the second or third generation of tutors is of stature of the first?
August 30 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And, they should be allowed to go to conferences
August 30 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and meet people
August 30 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I still don't understand "pffft", Adrw Lng
August 30 at 9:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If you cut the teaching load in half, you can have some of what you desire. But four sections is tough, especially if you have never before done, for example, Euclid.
August 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Decaen is pretty great.
August 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe TOTALLY agree
August 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Edward just was laughing about the "projects" comment about the tutors NBD
August 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe About the Decaen and also about cutting the teaching load in half
August 30 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think Nieto is good, but he's not everyone's cup of tea.
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I hear that: I'm not for swamping them down and what they do is in many respects tough, especially early on. Dunno if I could swing all the classes or anything myself, at least well.
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Todays philosophers are the experts of today. I think Aristotle meant these guys in his Topics. Commonly held truths which were really false with which you begin the whole process of opinion masquerading as truth. TAC should be able to take them apart, dialect by dialect, just like Thomas did. That would be irresistable. But it would take a long time to study all the modern experts.
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley I never had Coughlin (probably 'cause he's my uncle)
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Nieto is more of a coffee guy.
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley but Coughlin, O'Reilly and similar are great tutors to have teach you
August 30 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb suggests that TAC have a visiting scholar program.
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like · 3
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Emily Sullivan Lehman was always doing side academic hustles, giving papers in Rome, but he left for Hillsdale.
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley I really do think, though, that different skills make for good teachers and good researchers
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia blah. TAC can fall into the ocean for the help it gives people
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think that is generally true.
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Probably better not to start talking about individuals IMHO
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Suggest TAC and Christendom have an arranged intra-marriage program.
August 30 at 9:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Samantha, I think that's how we got Ferrier
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh, and welcome back Scott..... although you've blocked me so I can't see you
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley tutor swap with St Johns
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They need to be re-awakened. They need to awaken a communal and ongoing intellectual life among tutors. They should teach all classes but embrace and not fear special areas of interest. They should commune and argue and debate and write and research with other like minded institutions and groups and conference and journals, etc. Done with priorities in right mind, this would help inform their work in the classroom, not hinder it.
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe See? So it WAS a good idea.
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The tutor model also gives student a very unreal picture of what teaching in most times and places is and has been and will ever be like.
August 30 at 9:09pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But not just with St. John's.
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We could have visiting tutors who are specialists, and only teach their areas of specialization for a semester
August 30 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But all that takes time, Matthew
August 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg YES!
August 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Peregrine like that.
August 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahaha
August 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Uh oh. What did I say?
August 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Well, now you really are rewriting the curriculum and the mission. I suppose it appears that you could make these kinds of changes and still keep the aspect of the college you love, but that is not so.
August 30 at 9:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe They wouldn't be lecturing. They'd still be fulfilling the role of tutor
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, the tutors who do maintain some outside contact were less than stellar in the classroom
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You could hire a specialist for a semester to teach about the medieval bestiary, for example. That's just one example.
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Although maybe they'd give a Friday night lecture or two
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley (i.e. Goyette)
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe YOU TAKE THAT BACK
August 30 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That is not at all what I am suggesting, Scott. Sorry.
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott Weinberg - Michael Beitia wants to be unblocked and see your comments if you wish
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Now we must duel.
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia this sucks
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It's sad that people think this would be changing the mission.
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The curriculum remains the same!!
August 30 at 9:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John Ruplinger, I admire your fortitude
August 30 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I have been blocked by Michael Beitia? No wonder this thread does not make any sense.
August 30 at 9:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: they have no lectures to prep. They have zero req.s.
They could make Effing time.
August 30 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I still think the requirements for research are antithetical to the requirements for teaching
August 30 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You could have hired, for example, Seamus Heaney, for a semester to teach poetry. (He passed away recently.)
August 30 at 9:13pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But one could take steps to ensure this stuff was informing them and helping not hurting their teaching.
August 30 at 9:13pm · Like
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Megan Baird Decaen is amazing. So incredibly smart and snarky. One of my favorite tutors.
August 30 at 9:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley And be known for sub-standard research?
August 30 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No. No one is going to get what I'm saying so I'll shaddup.
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Does Decaen rhyme with upon, or with pecan, or Ducayne?
August 30 at 9:15pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I get you Matthew.
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley And as far as prep-time, the tutor's I've talked to (Anthony Andres, who came from Christnedom, for example) say it takes more time to prep for a seminar than for a lecture
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia whatever. the degree from TAC is like a degree from DeVry..... without all the technical skill
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It absolutely would change the mission. You take for granted what the school now is, and that somehow it would remain the same while you added this and changed that. Certainly changing this book or that particular reading would not alter the mission, but what you are after really is something different. I think you underestimate what it takes to create and sustain an institution like TAC.
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird No, Peterson, keep talking. Please.
August 30 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Because in a lecture you can control the course of the questions to a greater degree than you can control the TAC seminars
August 30 at 9:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The curriculum stays the same!
August 30 at 9:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (unless you happen to be Berquist, who just lectured)
August 30 at 9:15pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond A seminar does not take more time to prepare than a lecture, but a tutorial does.
August 30 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng There are some circumstantial things keeping tutors from doing research such as finishing their doctoral thesis and having a huge family (lol)
August 30 at 9:16pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley By "seminar" I meant "whatever happens in a classroom at TAC"
August 30 at 9:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Andres graduated from TAC though. When he left Christendom, the whole thing went ker-sploosh!
August 30 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe For real. The tutors don't need to have such a heavy teaching load. TAC could cut it in half
August 30 at 9:17pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley And hire twice the faculty? I'd be all for that.
August 30 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes.
August 30 at 9:18pm · Like
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Emily Norppa I'm listening, Matthew J. Peterson.
August 30 at 9:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg There needs to be a bestiary in the curriculum, to bring it all together, and to make it possible to integrate the medieval with the modern in the Ivy League schools.
August 30 at 9:18pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley As long as they wait four or five years before doing so.
August 30 at 9:18pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is there a TAC Tutors' Union?
August 30 at 9:19pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley It's called tenure
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No it isn't
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's called Permanent Appointment and it's pretty different than tenure
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Who shuts up because no one is listening on TNET?
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Do tutors have rights at TAC?
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird LOL
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley ok, not sure what the diff is. I'm more a speculative guy
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson?
August 30 at 9:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The seminar is (or at least should be) ordered to the expression of reasoned opinion--it does not aim at truth--and therefore the conversation can go here and there so long as the students are getting a chance to practice speaking about serious matters. (This is why Homer and Plato get so badly butchered.) But the tutorial has a different end, that end being knowledge (not opinion), and therefore the conversation cannot just go here or there. It must resolve to knowledge. Hence, not much preparation is needed for seminar, but a tremendous amount of preparation is need for a tutorial.
August 30 at 9:20pm · Like · 9
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Scott Weinberg Is there a Category of rights for the Tutor?
August 30 at 9:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg but not the student. That's it, isn't it. That's what this whole never-ending thread is about.
August 30 at 9:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I thought this thread was about all things....
August 30 at 9:23pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That sounds fair.
August 30 at 9:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley There should be a support group "spouses and families of TNET"
August 30 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is freshman Euclid a seminar or tutorial. And what is TNET?
August 30 at 9:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey Bond- were you a tutor? What's your deal?
August 30 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Or: "TNET Participants Anonymous"
August 30 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If you buy that distinction between seminar and tutorial, then it seems to me you can begin to distinguish excellent tutors from those less so. Some allow a tutorial to get lost like a seminar. Others try to make a seminar resolve to truth.
August 30 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg what's TNET?
August 30 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, I am a fallen away TAC tutor.
August 30 at 9:25pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Freshmen Euclid is a tutorial, not seminar.
August 30 at 9:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley "The NeverEnding Thread"
August 30 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is TNET a gnostic thing, or an apologetical thing?
August 30 at 9:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When? How long?
August 30 at 9:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley It should actually be "TNT" because it's explosive.
August 30 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Dr. Bond was before my time....back in the Jurassic period. (Kidding)
August 30 at 9:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Three years. From 1989 to 1991.
August 30 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Hence, the reason I should have prepared more for Euclid than Homer?
August 30 at 9:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Were you there when Mike or Mark Langley was there, Dr. Bond?
August 30 at 9:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, I've been treating you like a peer. Sorry. I blame the Thread.
August 30 at 9:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia everyone is a peer on TNET
August 30 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird The nature of freshman mathematics is such that it requires a lot more preparation than seminar.
August 30 at 9:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Even so. Once you teach a tutorial a few times, yah got it. I've been around a few blocks in and out of the academy. And I do NOT think that TAC tutors don't have the time to keep their intellectual life going by writing and conferencing, etc.
The best ones do anyhow - the ones that don't leave, anyways.
August 30 at 9:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Someone feel free to cut and paste what Mr. Beitia is saying.
August 30 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I recall the name "Langley," but I don't think we overlapped. Please call me Jeff. No problem, Samantha. All are peers on the Peterson thread.
August 30 at 9:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Euclid takes very little preparation. It teaches itself
August 30 at 9:29pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I disagree. I spent hours preparing for Euclid, and loved every minute of those hours.
August 30 at 9:29pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird It look a lot of preparation for me - maybe I'm a unique case. It took me months to catch on but when I did, I loved it.
August 30 at 9:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I taught it to high school students
August 30 at 9:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Peregrine had counseling. Beitia can you see this?
August 30 at 9:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So Euclid is not preparation for poetry?
August 30 at 9:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I loved every minute of Euclid. . . but it is so elegant. so well ordered
August 30 at 9:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the hardest parts to teach are the definitions
August 30 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The truth is, at top tier national liberal arts colleges they care dearly about teaching. And they often do that well. And they can easily find people who can also publish and conference without breaking a sweat.
To be sure, at many U's the research requirements are obscene.
Anyhow - my concern is for the teaching. The teaching stagnates when tutors stagnate.
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, and the minutiae of bk X
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like
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Megan Baird Once I understood Euclid, I really loved it. I spent 3 hours with Dr. Cain learning Book 1. Prop 47. That was the pivotal moment in my life when I fell in love with Euclid.
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley People should go here: https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking to see if they are inadvertently blocking anyone
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Michael Beitia: unblock Scott. He is trying to communicate with you.
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Cain is amazing
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Tell him I went to counseling.
August 30 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson is also right that it is a crazy buyers market out there. Hungry, brilliant PhDs ripe for the picking
August 30 at 9:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, if you teach a tutorial a few times it becomes easier, but at TAC you move to another tutorial as soon as you master the first. At least that is what is supposed to happen. Certain tutors were kept in certain places to minimize the damage they could do.
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I struggled with Euclid until Cain took me under his wing. It was a bloody revelation for me when I finally grasped the Pythagorean theorem.
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott says that The Peregrine went to counseling, Michael Beitia
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley I want University Administratir heads on pikes.
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson I think increased dialogue between tutors and outside intellectuals would be an enormous improvement. From what I understand they are trying to move in that direction, but I'm not sure what that translates into in reality. I do think that a guest tutor program would be a bad idea since it would destroy the integration which is so key to the program's success.
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Samantha: you make PHds sound like tasty fruit.
August 30 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Then they could increase tenured jobs
August 30 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [Scott misses you Michael.]
August 30 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Book 1 Prop 47 was pivotol for me too. But in a different way. If only the Ace came up the next day.
August 30 at 9:34pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not suggesting they simply try to be a top national liberal arts college and imitate those places. That would be no goot.
August 30 at 9:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia he's blocking me
August 30 at 9:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking
August 30 at 9:33pm · Like
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Megan Baird I was called for Prop 47, bombed it. Cain sat me down because I was not understanding Euclid at all, we spent three hours on that prop and the next day he asked for a volunteer to do it. I volunteered, did it perfectly. And voila, I was redeemed. TURNING moment for me at TAC.
August 30 at 9:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott Weinberg - you are blocking Beitia, he say.
August 30 at 9:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott Weinberg look here to see if you're blocking Michael Beitia
August 30 at 9:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.facebook.com/settings?tab=blocking
August 30 at 9:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I block no one.
August 30 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, MA is supposed to be sufficient for teaching . . . Ph.Ds should be rarer
August 30 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I do not think the "top" liberal arts colleges care deeply about teaching. Many friends who have gone to the top schools testify that that is not so. Many come out having learned nothing. Freshman at TAC know more than almost all my fellow graduate students at Chicago. That is no joke.
August 30 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Also turning moment? Senior year mathematics with Dr. Richard.
August 30 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson We'd have to distinguish teaching from what is being taught, no doubt. Heh.
August 30 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia aaah scottegrine..... I can see you
August 30 at 9:36pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg It was I who was blocking Beitia. How utterly small and petulant of me. I'm going back to counseling.
August 30 at 9:36pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I think, ideally people wouldn't be expected to have a Ph.D until they were like 50 and had a brilliant career.
August 30 at 9:37pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia It may have been from a while ago.....
August 30 at 9:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Then "Doctor" would actually mean something
August 30 at 9:37pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Dr. Richard Ferrier?
August 30 at 9:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How do you integrate math with poetry?
August 30 at 9:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Using u-substitution.
August 30 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Or, perhaps, the fundamental theorem of calculus
August 30 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is u-substitution a kind of metaphor or the implied premise of an enthymeme?
August 30 at 9:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley F(x) = d(math)/d(poetry)
August 30 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Perhaps the best seminar style teacher I have ever seen teaches at Washington & Lee. I know many an Ivy educated and fantastic teachers at Claremont McKenna. Michael Sandel's Justice course is a hit online for a reason: it is amazing what he does in a class that size.
You don't teach at Williams, etc. if you are a crap teacher.
August 30 at 9:40pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg F(x) = d(math)/d(poetry) leads my soul to beauty.
August 30 at 9:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://poetry.about.com/od/poems/l/blmillayeuclid.htm
Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare by Edna St. Vincent Millay
“Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare,” Sonnet from...
POETRY.ABOUT.COM
August 30 at 9:41pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I disagree about crap teachers at top schools. They are everywhere. If you have published a textbook or have made a name through publishing, then teaching matters not a whit.
August 30 at 9:43pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
August 30 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what's the point Peterson? You want TAC to have a better name for tenure track, I just want Goldman Sachs beating down my door, IT AINT HAPPENING
August 30 at 9:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley My goal in philosophy is to influence papal policy
August 30 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley IT WILL BE AWESOME!!!
August 30 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ack! and you don't like Latin!? Get behind me Edward Langley
August 30 at 9:45pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Finally excommunicating those execrable Molinists
August 30 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley Sending out the SWAT inquisitors to take out all them personalists.
August 30 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley and NNL types
August 30 at 9:46pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Don't even get me started about traddy-whacks
August 30 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia kumbaya
August 30 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I would totally give you the fist-bump of peace
August 30 at 9:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'll introduce liturgical swing dance.
August 30 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia with a "phsheeew" and wiggling fingers moving away
August 30 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't swing.
Liturgical slam-dance
August 30 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But Matthew J. Peterson, the "Laval school" has never been well connected
August 30 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's for them Toronto types
August 30 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The real Thomist travels long distances to find the last faithful guardian of the tradition and then carries the secret until he can pass it on to the next generation.
August 30 at 9:53pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Maritain? Gilson?
August 30 at 9:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You mean in matters of faith and morals, in what the Church teaches?
August 30 at 9:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think he's speaking of #gnosis
August 30 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Does math give language to nature? Serious question.
August 30 at 9:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, Scott, I'm talking about the secret teachings known only to the few.
August 30 at 9:54pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia YES (scott)
August 30 at 9:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Oh, good. I get it.
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #thomasticgnosis
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Where can I go to find this secret knowledge?
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley Those for whom "Gilson" never passes their lips without a curse
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hahahahahahaha
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley The quest is long, Scott, and the path arduous.
August 30 at 9:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley And the way known to only a few
August 30 at 9:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I can do it!
August 30 at 9:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley You must first demonstrate I.47 in ancient Greek.
August 30 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the asses bridge....
August 30 at 9:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger what was that pons asini?
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg 1.47 is the right angle triangle?
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia VI. 31 is more universal. I. 47 is the special case
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Pythagorean theorem is I.47
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger asinorum?
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley I.6 is the pons asinorum
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia special case of VI 31
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley i.5
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley that is
August 30 at 9:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg is that the hypoteneus?
August 30 at 9:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley "If a triangle has two equal sides, the angles at the base are equal"
August 30 at 9:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The truth is that most of the top schools are empty shells. I have had many of my best high school students initially reject my advice to go to TAC and instead go to Princeton (Jenny Tilley), Georgetown (Peter Kwasniewski) or William and Mary (Matt Nolan). After one disappointing year, each of them transferred to TAC and discovered a world of real learning rather than the sophistry being dished out at these prestigious institutions of higher learning. Perhaps some of you know Jenny (who is now a nun), Peter (who teaches at Wyoming Catholic) and Matt (who could be anywhere!). No doubt they would have been more "successful" had they not transferred, but thank God they went to TAC and became failures in the world.
August 30 at 10:03pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The demonstration was often said to be the point at which people who couldn't do math would fail.
August 30 at 9:59pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's why I suggested it
August 30 at 10:01pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger thanks, Jeffrey. My logorhea stops at the careerist talk.
August 30 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg O, 1.47... called on Tuesday but could only do Wednesday. But I could do it. a2 + b2 = c2. Honestly, I got that. Honestly. But why does it matter.
a2 + b2 = c2 is it the same thing as the rose is beautiful, the woman is a rose, the woman is beautiful. ??
August 30 at 10:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or VI. 31 where you can show that similar and similarly constructed clown's heads work as well as the squares in I 47
August 30 at 10:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley The final step of the first stage of the journey is the fabled "Death Star"
August 30 at 10:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger a syllogistic doggeral.
August 30 at 10:04pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (although it's actually not as difficult as one of the neighbouring props)
August 30 at 10:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Then, thou shalt interpret the following verse aright:
August 30 at 10:07pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley .
Good luck befriend thee, Son; for, at thy birth,
The faery ladies danc'd upon the hearth;
Thy drowsy nurse hath sworn she did them spie
Come tripping to the room where thou didst lie,
And, sweetly singing round about thy bed,
Strew all their blessings on thy sleeping head.
She heard them give thee this, that thou shouldst still
From eyes of mortals walk invisible:
Yet there is something that doth force my fear;
For once it was my dismal hap to hear
A Sibyl old, bow-bent with crooked age,
That far events full wisely could presage,
And, in time's long and dark prospective glass,
Foresaw what future days should bring to pass;
"Your son," said she, ("nor can you it prevent)
Shall subject be to many an Accident.
O'er all his brethren he shall reign as king,
Yet every one shall make him underling;
And those, that cannot live from him asunder,
Ungratefully shall strive to keep him under;
In worth and excellence he shall out-go them,
Yet, being above them, he shall be below them;
From others he shall stand in need of nothing,
Yet on his brothers shall depend for clothing.
To find a foe it shall not be his hap,
And Peace shall lull him in her flowery lap;
Yet shall he live in strife, and at his door
Devouring War shall never cease to roar;
Yea, it shall be his natural property
To harbour those that are at enmity.
What power, what force, what mighty spell, if not
Your learned hands, can loose this Gordian knot?
August 30 at 10:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Megan Baird KUMBAYA showed up? What's next? The sign of peace? Hand holding?!
August 30 at 10:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hitler has yet to appear
August 30 at 10:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe YOU are Hitler.
August 30 at 10:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe For suggesting my favorite tutor is a less than awesome tutor
August 30 at 10:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley . . . ignorant women . . .
August 30 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think what happened was I understood the Pythagorean theorem on one level, but not at that deeper level of gnosis. In DC, you always get briefed before something important. Make sure your freshmen get briefed. At Christendom, they brief you. They always tell you in advance when to stand up and shout Amen!
August 30 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: I tell people to go to TAC as well, and it's wonderful what you did for those students.
Don't get me started on the Big Empty out there. The Nothingness grows.
August 30 at 10:11pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley (quoting a certain, slightly rash tutor)
August 30 at 10:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TAC is not so much about cheering as about derision.
August 30 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I could do the death star too, honestly, but I didn't get called. I just failed.
August 30 at 10:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I wonder, then, why we seem to disagree, Matthew, about how TAC might be better. Or perhaps we don't?
August 30 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the Big Empty.
August 30 at 10:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We don't want to change the curriculum!
August 30 at 10:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or the "orientation" of the school
August 30 at 10:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, that poem above you quote, the long one in heroic couplets. Could this form fly today, all other things being equal? The same quality, same form?
August 30 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley TAC has a knack for producing graduates who disagree on everything expect that TAC is awesome.
August 30 at 10:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nah, we agree about most things. That is why we have to find such weird stuff to argue about.
August 30 at 10:14pm · Like · 6
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg God is awesome. Worship God, parents, nation, alma mater.
August 30 at 10:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley The heroic never ageth, Scott.
August 30 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Whereas I would not have a problem with changing aspects of the curriculum, but not the overall orientation.
August 30 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg That's what I am told. Maybe only for a bestiary. Modern content makes it sound funny.
August 30 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Joel HF is catching up.
August 30 at 10:15pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I think it may again, Scott.
August 30 at 10:15pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg So scrap the content and strive for universals, maybe then it would work.
August 30 at 10:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The bestiary is pedantic. But pedantry and playfullness go hand it hand.
August 30 at 10:16pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson If one was to get a TNET tattoo, what would it look like?
August 30 at 10:17pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg 404 lines in heroic couplet. Each in pairs of metaphor, two of enthymeme. Straight down the middle of your back.
August 30 at 10:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond A DNA strand?
August 30 at 10:17pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I sit me down to slay the troll
Who lately down the thread doth stroll/
I bring the trusty mouse to bear,
The keyboard too is also there.
. . .
August 30 at 10:17pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I think TAC should just be up front about academia. If that's what you want, TAC won't get you there
August 30 at 10:18pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Couplets with chiasmus are DNA. They are.
August 30 at 10:18pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson The Thread is too much with us...
August 30 at 10:18pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond Gregorian Chant can heal damaged DNA. There's hope.
August 30 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Catherine Ryland WHAT is going on? Someone is seriously messing with our heads. This is the most mysterious thing. I feel like someone invented a rabid Christendom grad just to lure us all into meaningless dispute with a shadow.
August 30 at 10:19pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond O for a thread of fire!
August 30 at 10:19pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Ryland, you are soooo behind the times.
August 30 at 10:20pm · Unlike · 4
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia Catherine all is shadow in the unfolding of the world spirit that is TNET
August 30 at 10:20pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Catherine Ryland It's true, I lost my place in the TNET. I lost my mind here too. But that had already started long ago.
August 30 at 10:20pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond Batter my heart three-threaded God!
August 30 at 10:20pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley We are discussing how the use of NFP affects the number of tenure-track jobs for philosophy grads.
August 30 at 10:20pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Perhaps, if you read long enough, your mind will reappear in the eternal return of the same.
August 30 at 10:21pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Thanks for the update!
August 30 at 10:22pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The Peregrine perished, and a kinder, gentler Scott Weinberg came to life in his stead.
We have traversed leagues since those days.
August 30 at 10:22pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia I found mine. It has become universal with the spreading of #gnosis through understanding Jormungandr's spirals in infinity
August 30 at 10:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's chiasmus DNA in heroic couplet
Self-love but serves the virtuous mind to wake
As the small pebble stirs the peaceful lake;
The centre mov'd, a circle strait succeeds,
Another still, and still another spreads;
Friend, parent, neighbour, first it will embrace;
His country next; and next all human race;
Wide and more wide, th' o'erflowings of the mind
Take ev'ry creature in, of ev'ry kind.
August 30 at 10:23pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley We are also preaching the Secret Teachings of Thomism.
August 30 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond As we approach 10K, I feel a presence I have not felt for a long time.
August 30 at 10:23pm · Like · 6
--##--%%--##--
Catherine Ryland Is PB/Scott Weinberg completely a fiction? Is fictitious PB/Scott Weinberg making sport of us all?
August 30 at 10:24pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Ah, a sister thread!
August 30 at 10:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson These are days of peace. An era of the intellect. Discussion and friendly debate about educational reform and procreation. Secret societies abound.
But will it all hold together?
Could the days of darkness and gnashing of teeth return?
Are there unlocked doors behind which lie veritable bestiaries of soul?
We shall see, Catherine Ryland. We. Shall. See.
August 30 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Chiasmus is like DNA; DNA is like subject/predicate::subject/predicate, then splicing them in reverse manner.
August 30 at 10:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley The Big Angry doth sleep.
August 30 at 10:25pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg like a DNA chain; like what metaphor does. it's immitation, like identical twins.
August 30 at 10:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg or a reflection in a pool
August 30 at 10:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley I hear the rumbles of a syllaphor.
August 30 at 10:25pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Or perhaps it is a metagism.
August 30 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia nonono metagism
August 30 at 10:26pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg is it only doggeral? what is the gnostic connection, with MATH!
August 30 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Math stoops to conquer, purging metaphor of admixture of error
August 30 at 10:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley And the sweet muse of orthography abideth not with me.
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg how does it connect?
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I do not feel that I can help but post on this thread.
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg please
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like
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Megan Baird Brownie points to Jeff for that Star Wars reference.
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg one plus one... a squared plus b squared... all a is b... Beatrice is a rose... DNA
August 30 at 10:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Evening Hawk
From plane of light to plane, wings dipping through
Geometries and orchids that the sunset builds,
Out of the peak's black angularity of shadow, riding
The last tumultuous avalanche of
Light above pines and the guttural gorge,
The hawk comes.
His wing
Scythes down another day, his motion
Is that of the honed steel-edge, we hear
The crashless fall of stalks of Time.
The head of each stalk is heavy with the gold of our error.
Look! Look! he is climbing the last light
Who knows neither Time nor error, and under
Whose eye, unforgiving, the world, unforgiven, swings
Into shadow.
Long now,
The last thrush is still, the last bat
Now cruises in his sharp hieroglyphics.His wisdom
Is ancient, too, and immense.The star
Is steady, like Plato, over the mountain.
If there were no wind we might, we think, hear
The earth grind on its axis, or history
Drip in darkness like a leaking pipe in the cellar.
Robert Penn Warren
August 30 at 10:28pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Sing, goddess of Gnosis...
August 30 at 10:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hey, it's the 21st century #gnosis
August 30 at 10:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Math is like the cystalline sphere upon whom attendeth the warring elements.
August 30 at 10:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg RPW... stick whipping goldenrod. I spy chiasmus.
August 30 at 10:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley No steel-clad arguments shall escape my lips unless they don the rosy trappings of metagism.
August 30 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Waiting for someone to juxtapose "wine dark seas" with gnosis...
August 30 at 10:30pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You know, you just aren't saying.
August 30 at 10:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I will not serry terms to slay the troll, but will bedazzle his eyes with the wine dark seas of poetic gnosis.
August 30 at 10:30pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley While the rosy-fingered dawn breaketh overhead.
August 30 at 10:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley During the catalog of the ships.
August 30 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I shall never catch up.
August 30 at 10:33pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia his math struck through the hollow of the corselet,
sending his armor clattering about his syllophor
August 30 at 10:31pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia and he spoke a megasism that no two men, such as men are today
could have syllophored
August 30 at 10:32pm · Unlike · 6
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Scott Weinberg Do these below have the same thing in common, at the DNA level of gnosis?
one plus one equal two... "a" squared plus "b" squared... all a is b... Beatrice is a rose...
August 30 at 10:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley They are all caught up in the transcendental unity of beauty, goodness and truth . . that is, imagination, will and intellect.
August 30 at 10:33pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia all but the last.... it is metagism
August 30 at 10:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley This can be seen in the formal structure of the syllaphor.
August 30 at 10:33pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Ed, if that's true -- transcendental unity -- then they need to have something similar at their beginning, that is, at the DNA level of gnosis. Yes?
August 30 at 10:34pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think that I shall never see a Thread as lovely as a tree.
August 30 at 10:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Surely the DNA level of gnosis is beyond our petty categories of "yes" and "no" it is more like the self-same being-there of Dasein.
August 30 at 10:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Scottgrine, breaker of metagisms, cast his syllophor
and the dark death danced about reason
August 30 at 10:34pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That is beautiful and I have to go give Ellie a bath.
August 30 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia dont dis on Heidegger
See Translation
August 30 at 10:35pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Beauty is the thread, the thread beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
August 30 at 10:36pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia that and don't diss on Heidegger
August 30 at 10:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Approaching 10000
As a midpoint
of infinity
Yet
Not without limit
Or any thread at all
August 30 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The question is, is "The Tempest" of the devil?
August 30 at 10:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Catherine.... the thread is Yggdrasil reaching its ashen branches into the metagismic aether
August 30 at 10:37pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Exhibit (a):
Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes and groves
And ye that on the sands with printless foot
Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him
When he comes back. . . . By whose aid, weak masters
though ye be, I have bedimmed the noontide sun
Magic! the devil is in it!
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland The quality of Threadness is not strained.
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg The rose is beautiful / Beatrice is a rose is DNA splitting and adding the genetics of beauty to Beatrice.
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Mercy is a town in Australia.
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley And necromancy: graves at my command have waked their sleepers, ope' and let them forth, by my so potent art.
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The love their tea in Mercy.
August 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Koala-tea of Mercy is not strained.
August 30 at 10:40pm · Unlike · 2
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Catherine Ryland Of course the Tempest is of the devile.
August 30 at 10:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Australia knoweth mercy not, but waiteth in every shadow with some new horror for the unsuspecting man-child.
August 30 at 10:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I feel called to ask what Hamlet would do were he to approach 10K . . .
August 30 at 10:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland He would thrust it with a bare bodkin.
August 30 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond To thread or not to thread. That is the question.
August 30 at 10:41pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Lear would divide the thread among his daughters
August 30 at 10:41pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Reason, will, and appetite.
August 30 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Matt Nolan and Peter Kwasniewski are here on the Book of Faces, Jeffrey Bond, in case you aren't already connected.
August 30 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And the thread claims yet more victims.
August 30 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Your mercy knows no bounds!
August 30 at 10:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Blow, Thread, and crack your cheeks! Thread! blow! You cataracts and hurricanoes, spout Till you have drench'd our steeples, drown'd the cocks!
August 30 at 10:43pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The quality of this thread is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes
August 30 at 10:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Let us return to the clearing where the disclosedness of Dasein is Daseins own being-for-itself-for-the-sake-of-the-they.
August 30 at 10:47pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Do not go gentle into that long thread . . .
August 30 at 10:48pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley For it is the ever fixéd mark, that looks on storms and is never shaken
August 30 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger a knitting party now?
August 30 at 10:49pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I like knitting.
August 30 at 10:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley My wife has been knitting me a scarf for about a year now.
August 30 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The little Cricket sings a song of hope,
A song of love, in God's eternal scope.
If little Crickets sing of things thereof,
Then how much more can we sign of His love?
August 30 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Being and Twine
August 30 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, to be fair, Goyette and I basically waged war against each other for four semesters . . . I like to think that he is indocile.
August 30 at 10:52pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I like Mr. Goyette. I do not like his utter acceptance of St. Augustine. (Well, of practically everything he said)
August 30 at 10:53pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley St. Augustine is where it's all at.
August 30 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Justus quidem tu es, Domine, si disputem tecum: verumtamen
justa loquar ad te: Quare via impiorum prosperatur? &c.
Thou are indeed just, Lord, if I contend
With thee; but, sir, so what I plead is just.
Why do sinners' ways prosper? and why must
Disappointment all I endeavour end?
Wert thou my enemy, O thou my friend,
How wouldst thou worse, I wonder, than thou dost
Defeat, thwart me? Oh, the sots and thralls of lust
Do in spare hours more thrive than I that spend,
Sir, life upon thy cause. See, banks and brakes
Now, leavèd how thick! lacèd they are again
With fretty chervil, look, and fresh wind shakes
Them; birds build--but not I build; no, but strain,
Time's eunuch, and breed not one work that wakes.
Mine, O thou lord of life, send my roots rain.
Father Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J. (1844-1889)
August 30 at 10:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh yeah.... I think I had the same argument with Goyette about Augustine that I had with Big Angry earlier in the Thread.
August 30 at 10:56pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And I didn't have Goyette for Augustine, I had Paietta
August 30 at 10:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley But Augustine was basically the best Thomist before Thomas.
August 30 at 10:59pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond With apologies to Matthew Arnold . . .
The web is calm tonight.
The thread is full, the moon lies fair
Upon the straits; on the French coast the light
Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,
Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
Come to the window, sweet is the night-air!
Only, from the long line of spray
Where the sea meets the moon-blanched land,
Listen! you hear the grating roar
Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
At their return, up the high strand,
Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
The eternal note of sadness in.
Sophocles long ago
Heard it on the Ægean, and it brought
Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
Of human misery; we
Find also in the sound a thought,
Hearing it by this distant northern sea.
The Eternal Thread
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the web.
Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the thread, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
August 30 at 11:03pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley .
Marke but this flea, and marke in this,
How little that which thou deny’st me is;
It suck’d me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea, our two bloods mingled bee.
August 30 at 11:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Donne!
August 30 at 11:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But not done.
August 30 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But that's all one, this play is done.
August 30 at 11:12pm · Like
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Joel HF I never did quite understand your love of Goyette, Samantha. Mark Clark, on the other hand, there was a tutor!
August 30 at 11:13pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Was being operative in more ways than one.
August 30 at 11:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The syllogism is DNA, too; breaking two threads
Knitting one new.
August 30 at 11:15pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I bump into Mr. Clark frequently at CUA.
August 30 at 11:13pm · Like
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Joel HF I need to call/write him sometime.
August 30 at 11:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg When that I was and a little tiny boy,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
A foolish thing was but a toy,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came to man’s estate,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
’Gainst knaves and thieves men shut their gate,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came, alas! to wive,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
By swaggering could I never thrive,
For the rain it raineth every day.
But when I came unto my beds,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
With toss-pots still had drunken heads,
For the rain it raineth every day.
A great while ago the world begun,
With hey, ho, the wind and the rain,
But that’s all one, our play is done,
And we’ll strive to please you every day.
August 30 at 11:15pm · Like
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Joel HF St. John's has a rolling sabbatical, where ever 9 years or so, each tutor gets a sabbatical year. I've always thought this would be a good idea at TAC, as well.
August 30 at 11:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley Twelfth night should be put out to pasture for several years.
August 30 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Except maybe for the clown.
August 30 at 11:17pm · Like
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Megan Baird 263
August 30 at 11:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Every other Shakespeare event I run into is Twelfth Night.
August 30 at 11:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Better than a Midsummer Night's Dream.
August 30 at 11:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley People should stretch their imaginations a little bit and do Comedy of Errors or As You Like It or Alls Well That Ends Well.
August 30 at 11:18pm · Like
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Megan Baird I have a fondness for Much Ado About Nothing myself. I actually had a part in The Merchant of Venice while at TAC. That was a blast.
August 30 at 11:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Much Ado is borderline at the moment.
August 30 at 11:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's a good play, but just about played out for the nonce.
August 30 at 11:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, in Comedy of errors you have a confusion among a pair of twins with lots of beatings to boot.
August 30 at 11:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, I was in Vancouver, at Twelfth Night, at the Arts Club on Granville Island, on my way to Europe, and was talking to the clown after the performance, then met this actor and actress from Ireland who invited me to their place the following weekend where we said the Rosary with their brothers and sisters and mom and dad, and that's how I became Catholic.
August 30 at 11:37pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, agreed, but I think it's a brilliant play.
August 30 at 11:20pm · Like
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Megan Baird I think my favorite part of the Merchant of Venice was chewing out my classmate for losing his wedding ring. I really got to go off on him. Fun times.
August 30 at 11:21pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Here is no water but only Thread
Thread and no water and the sandy road
The road winding above among the mountains
Which are mountains of Thread without water
If there were water we should stop and drink
Amongst the Thread one cannot stop or think
August 30 at 11:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's hard to find a good play these days.
August 30 at 11:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Moliere generally pleases
August 30 at 11:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Thread goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Thread has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say”
August 30 at 11:22pm · Like · 6
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Megan Baird "Not all Threads that wander are lost."
August 30 at 11:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Go to now, ye threadmakers, make trial that ye all may know. Fasten ye a thread of gold from Zuckerberg, and all ye facebookers lay hold thereof; yet could ye not drag from heaven to earth Matthew J. Peterson, counselor supreme, not though ye toiled sore. But once he likewise were minded to draw with all his heart, then should he draw you up with very earth and sea withal. Thereafter would he bind the thread about a pinnacle of Olympus, and so should all those things be hung in air. By so much is he beyond gods and beyond men.
August 31 at 11:27am · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Goldsmith, "she stoops to conquer" is a good one too.
August 30 at 11:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg We are strangers and threadbearers...
August 30 at 11:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Better Thread, than Red.
August 30 at 11:25pm · Like
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Megan Baird "We are the thread-makers and we are the weavers of threads."
August 30 at 11:25pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I sing of Thread-makers, and a man of Thread!
August 30 at 11:28pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
The NeverEnding Thread is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
August 30 at 11:26pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of thread.
August 30 at 11:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A rolling stone gathers no thread.
August 30 at 11:27pm · Like
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Megan Baird Write ye long threads while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same Thread that never ends today
Tomorrow will be dying.
August 30 at 11:28pm · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Megan Baird SING, O Muse, of the NeverEnding Thread!
August 30 at 11:28pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I may be too eager for this thread to reach 10,000.
August 30 at 11:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg O, then, I see Queen Mab hath been with you.
She is the fairies' midwife, and she comes
In shape no bigger than an agate-stone
On the fore-finger of an alderman,
Drawn with a team of little atomies
Athwart men's noses as they lie asleep;
Her wagon-spokes made of long spiders' legs,
The cover of the wings of grasshoppers,
The traces of the smallest spider's web,
The collars of the moonshine's watery beams,
Her whip of cricket's bone, the lash of threads!
August 30 at 11:32pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg I would not take a thread or a sandal or anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ (Genesis 14: 23)
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg sing
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg of
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg warfare
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg and
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg a
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg man
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg at
August 30 at 11:34pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg war
August 30 at 11:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Peterson has turned you all into . . .
August 30 at 11:35pm · Like
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Megan Baird ...crazy people?
August 30 at 11:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg threadbugs
August 30 at 11:35pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Seriously, though, is free or open verse the only form of poetry that would work today?
August 30 at 11:36pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg And what's the connection between math, and poetry, and faith and reason?
August 30 at 11:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante http://www.amazon.com/Poetry-Mathematics.../dp/B000WQQYQQ
Poetry and Mathematics
A radical reform of teaching and learning in a small province of the modern academy
AMAZON.COM
August 30 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is there a gnosis central command, like NorthComm, that regulates how explicit these connections may become?
August 30 at 11:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . .no it just reminds me of Penelope.
August 30 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Faithful, patient, intelligent Penelope?
August 30 at 11:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Her completed shroud shone like the sun or the moon.
August 30 at 11:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger weaving
August 30 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond and unweaving
August 30 at 11:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond like nature on the cosmic loom
August 30 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, weaving, and unweaving, like DNA. The thread of DNA. Unpicking and stitching anew.
Does this make any sense?
http://theamericanscholar.org/a-mindful-beauty/#.VAKZHdddWSo
The American Scholar: A Mindful Beauty - Joel E. Cohen
What poetry and applied mathematics have in common
THEAMERICANSCHOLAR.ORG
August 30 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger what is the web you weave? and its like the lyre and the weaving together
August 30 at 11:45pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is math like weaving too?
August 30 at 11:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is the Universe (Nature) like weaving, and unweaving?
August 30 at 11:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Re. Augustine, Catherine Ryland, I think what a lot of people miss in his stuff on predestination is that he's very focused on the heresy of the day: Pelagianism. If there had been a stronger Stoic contingent in his day, I think what he wrote would have sounded more like what the Pelagians say.
That, combined with a human affinity for Pelagianism makes it hard to understand his stuff on predestination correctly.
August 30 at 11:45pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Things coming to be and things passing away. Each being a union of the vertical and horizontal threads . . . the cross at the heart of all things.
August 30 at 11:44pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Matter and form. Like weaving. That's it. Creation. Immitation. Things similar in kind.
August 30 at 11:46pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Thomas is a lot gnarlier than Augustine on the predestination question; vide RGL on the matter
August 30 at 11:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Does the Sacred Monster get T right?
August 30 at 11:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think so
August 30 at 11:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How people know, through likeness, extracted forms, phantasms, forms informing the soul; mathematical equations imitating nature.
August 30 at 11:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Note that Odysseus imitates this weaving when he lashes together the mast and keel in order to preserve himself after Zeus destroys his ship.
August 30 at 11:46pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Geez, I go to a picnic for a few hours and come back to find everyone drunk and PB re-incarnated as a Pythagorean mystic. What is going ON?
August 30 at 11:46pm · Unlike · 6
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Scott Weinberg I went to counseling.
August 30 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley frontal lobotomy was the prescription.
August 30 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The word "mast" and the word "loom" are the same in Greek.
August 30 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Please, no one post the video of Spock playing the lyre.
August 30 at 11:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Bringing to mind that poignant apothegm: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
August 30 at 11:48pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'd rather have a bottle in front 'o me, than a frontal lobotomy.
August 30 at 11:48pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I see you were classically educated.
August 30 at 11:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley For Scott's viewing pleasure:
August 30 at 11:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S5VYmc8qhg
Star Trek Original Series TOS Spock Vulcan Lute Lyre Prop Replica
This prop replica lute is an exact duplicate of the screen...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 30 at 11:49pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward, uncalled for!
August 30 at 11:49pm · Like
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Marina Shea I went whiskey tasting
August 30 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante next you'll inflict his Bilbo song on us
August 30 at 11:50pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Was it a whiskered whiskey tasting?
August 30 at 11:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dialectic is an unknitting of the thread, and knitting anew. It undoes predications, then reconnects beads, in scientific syllogisms.
August 30 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley =]
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Edward Langley ]\/p[;'k9bv
|"_
August 30 at 11:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks Spock, I've lost the thread.
August 30 at 11:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley My son doth join us
August 30 at 11:51pm · Like · 1
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Marina Shea Scott that sounds like music in the aveum
August 30 at 11:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I have a proposal for Matthew J. Peterson. After we reach 10,000 comments, I think Thread Awards should be given. Let me suggest a few categories, and hopefully all of you will add others.
(1) Best insult.
(2) Most humorous.
(3) Most high fantastical.
August 30 at 11:53pm · Like · 5
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Marina Shea But Pere left
August 30 at 11:53pm · Like
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Marina Shea He won't see his awards
August 30 at 11:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,
They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;
Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,
Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.
This erring Mortals Levity may call,
Oh blind to Truth! the Thread contrives it all.
August 31 at 12:00am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley My son just got his first Facebook "like"
August 30 at 11:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Can I have an honorary degree from TAC?
August 30 at 11:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley at the tender age of 16 months.
August 30 at 11:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley First you must complete THE ORDEAL.
August 30 at 11:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Congratulations!
August 30 at 11:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Welcome, son of Ed, to the Thread.
August 30 at 11:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What is the value of an honorary degree?
August 30 at 11:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley
August 30 at 11:56pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond (4) Best adaptation of a classic poem.
(5) Best image
(6) Best tragical/historical/comical
August 30 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (7) best original composition
August 30 at 11:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Enthymeme unweaves temptation, and predicates the heart on universal good. Metaphor unweaves the banal, and predicates the imagination on beauty.
August 30 at 11:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I hope that's not a salt-rimmed glass he's holding.
August 30 at 11:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
Child! do not throw this book about;
Refrain from the unholy pleasure
Of cutting all the pictures out!
Preserve it as your chiefest treasure.
Child, have you never heard it said
That you are heir to all the ages?
Why, then, your hands were never made
To tear these beautiful thick pages!
Your little hands were made to take
The better things and leave the worse ones.
They also may be used to shake
The Massive Paws of Elder Persons.
And when your prayers complete the day,
Darling, your little tiny hands
Were also made, I think, to pray
For men that lose their fairylands.
August 30 at 11:58pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I need to teach my son that poem.
August 30 at 11:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's just because I was intellectually unable to get a real one.
August 30 at 11:58pm · Like
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Megan Baird Okay, now I've seen it all - Spock made an entrance on this thread? Next thing you know, it'll be Chewbacca.
August 30 at 11:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley Godwin's law has yet to be fulfilled
August 30 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng
August 31 at 12:00am · Like
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Edward Langley
August 31 at 12:01am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What is Godwin's law?
August 31 at 12:01am · Like
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Edward Langley "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"
August 31 at 12:02am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTW2ZSjG5N0
The Producers (1968) trailer
Producers Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom make money by producing a sure-fire flop. Mel Brooks' directorial debut!
YOUTUBE.COM
August 31 at 12:03am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I gotta cardboard belt, Bloom!
August 31 at 12:05am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That's the funniest line in movie history!
August 31 at 12:06am · Like
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Edward Langley .
I CALL you bad, my little child,
Upon the title page,
Because a manner rude and wild
Is common at your age.
The Moral of this priceless work
(If rightly understood)
Will make you--from a little Turk--
Unnaturally good.
Do not as evil children do,
Who on the slightest grounds
Will imitate the Kangaroo,
With wild unmeaning bounds:
Do not as children badly bred,
Who eat like little Hogs,
And when they have to go to bed
Will whine like Puppy Dogs:
Who take their manners from the Ape,
Their habits from the Bear,
Indulge the loud unseemly jape,
And never brush their hair.
But so control your actions that
Your friends may all repeat.
'This child is dainty as the Cat,
And as the Owl discreet.'
August 31 at 12:08am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Beloc.
August 31 at 12:08am · Like
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Scott Weinberg not a real bestiary, but genius no less.
August 31 at 12:08am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Have you ever seen The Palm Beach Story by Preston Sturges? It may have some lines that are even funnier.
August 31 at 12:08am · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, but I will now.
August 31 at 12:09am · Like
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Edward Langley .
The Microbe is so very small
You cannot make him out at all,
But many sanguine people hope
To see him through a microscope.
His jointed tongue that lies beneath
A hundred curious rows of teeth;
His seven tufted tails with lots
Of lovely pink and purple spots,
On each of which a pattern stands,
Composed of forty separate bands;
His eyebrows of a tender green;
All these have never yet been seen--
But Scientists, who ought to know,
Assure us that they must be so. . . .
Oh! let us never, never doubt
What nobody is sure about!
August 31 at 12:09am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "Bringing up Baby" has to be in the running as well.
August 31 at 12:10am · Like
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Megan Baird Ok, if we're discussing funny movies - 'Arsenic and Old Lace' has to make an appearance.
August 31 at 12:12am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg The Bear can be a rough and tumble beast,
Who doesn’t care for manners, in the least.
Practice kindness, and embrace restraint,
And never mock a prophet or a saint!
***
As he was walking along the road, some boys came
out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here,
baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned
around, looked at them and called down a curse on
them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came
out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
(2 Kings 2: 23-25)
For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.
(Psalm 32: 28)
August 31 at 12:12am · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Paul Blart: Mall Cop -- funniest movie of the 21st century so far, imho
August 31 at 12:14am · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird My sister named her psycho cat Mortimer Brewster, despite the fact that the cat turned out to be female.
August 31 at 12:16am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Preston Sturges again: "The Sin of Harold Diddlebock"
August 31 at 12:16am · Like
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Scott Weinberg his
August 31 at 12:16am · Like
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Scott Weinberg fate
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Scott Weinberg made
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Scott Weinberg him
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Scott Weinberg a
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Scott Weinberg fugitive
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Scott Weinberg he
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Scott Weinberg was
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg first
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Scott Weinberg to
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Scott Weinberg journey
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Scott Weinberg from
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg coasts
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Scott Weinberg of
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Scott Weinberg Troy
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Scott Weinberg as
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Scott Weinberg far
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Scott Weinberg as
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Scott Weinberg Italy
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Scott Weinberg and
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg Lavinian
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Scott Weinberg shores
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Scott Weinberg Across
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg lands
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Scott Weinberg and
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Scott Weinberg waters
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Scott Weinberg was
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Scott Weinberg battered
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Scott Weinberg beneath
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg violence
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Scott Weinberg of
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Scott Weinberg gods
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Scott Weinberg for
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Scott Weinberg the
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Scott Weinberg savage
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Scott Weinberg Juno's
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Scott Weinberg eternal
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Scott Weinberg anger
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Scott Weinberg and
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Scott Weinberg many
August 31 at 12:19am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Arma virumque cano
August 31 at 12:19am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg sufferings
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Scott Weinberg were
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Scott Weinberg his
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Scott Weinberg war
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Scott Weinberg until
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Scott Weinberg brought
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Scott Weinberg city
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Scott Weinberg being
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Scott Weinberg and carried in his gods
August 31 at 12:20am · Like
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Scott Weinberg to Latium
August 31 at 12:20am · Like
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Edward Langley troiam qui primum ab oris
August 31 at 12:20am · Like
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Edward Langley fatam profugus, . . .
August 31 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Mel Gibson's character recites these lines near the beginning of "The Man Without a Face"
August 31 at 12:21am · Like
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John Ruplinger tot volvere casus . . . thats me
August 31 at 12:21am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "much buffeted" is better than "battered"
August 31 at 12:23am · Like · 2
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John Kunz Article. IV.
Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
Section. 2.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
Section. 3.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
August 31 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Fagles FTW
August 31 at 12:23am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If Virgil appears, then Dante cannot be far behind. After that, the thread culminates with Shakespeare?
August 31 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Forgive the Swan for its assertive trend,
It has a home and family to defend.
Squawk if you must; use poetry or charm,
But always keep the ones you love from harm.
August 31 at 12:26am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The ugly duckling hath become a swan.
August 31 at 12:28am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Chesterton said Dante and Shakespeare divide the world between them. There is no third.
August 31 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng And then went down to the ship,
August 31 at 12:33am · Like
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Adrw Lng Set keel to breakers, forth on the godly seas, and
August 31 at 12:33am · Like
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Adrw Lng We set up mast and sail on that swart ship,
August 31 at 12:33am · Like
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Jeff Neill This thread was better when it discussed a topic and sought to find answers or at least challenged a question or statement which was posited as truth, but it has fallen to post count bumping. Now it is just an auditorium of 5th grade kids attempting to have the last clap of an applause
August 31 at 12:34am · Unlike · 3
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Adrw Lng ^Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
August 31 at 12:34am · Unlike · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Clap
August 31 at 12:35am · Like
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Jeff Neill No. I actually was here for what was said not how much was said.
August 31 at 12:36am · Like
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Adrw Lng yawn
August 31 at 12:36am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond How strange to prefer quality to quantity.
August 31 at 12:37am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Well propose a question
August 31 at 12:37am · Like
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Adrw Lng "what is worse, being a blowhard or being frivolous?"
August 31 at 12:37am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger discussion will return
August 31 at 12:38am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world
August 31 at 12:39am · Like
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Adrw Lng Here are some random questions I would like to discuss:
What is the greatest fine art?
August 31 at 12:41am · Like
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Adrw Lng Is Hemmingway a great writer?
August 31 at 12:41am · Like
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Adrw Lng Greatest living philosopher?
August 31 at 12:42am · Like
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Adrw Lng Greatest living novelist...composer...scientist...take your pick
August 31 at 12:42am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Concerning Hemmingway, I think "The Short and Happy Life of Francis Macomber" may qualify as a great short story. After that, I'm not much of a fan.
August 31 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 2 no
3 aquinas
August 31 at 12:44am · Like
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Adrw Lng He was even as a novelist a great short story writer
August 31 at 12:44am · Like
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John Ruplinger what is pietas in the Aeneid?
August 31 at 12:45am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond pius Aeneas: doing the will of Jupiter
August 31 at 12:46am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Founding the eternal city
August 31 at 12:46am · Like
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Adrw Lng Following his heart (j/k!)
August 31 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Is there really any greater warrior than Aeneas?
August 31 at 12:48am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, Christ who vanquished death
August 31 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but he doesnt, does he?
August 31 at 12:49am · Like
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Adrw Lng Excellent!
August 31 at 12:49am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond How not?
August 31 at 12:49am · Like
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John Ruplinger ie aeneas
August 31 at 12:50am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Jesus the judo master who appears defeated but then gains the victory
August 31 at 12:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger how does he?
August 31 at 12:51am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I see now John
August 31 at 12:51am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Aeneas or Jesus?
August 31 at 12:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger [my posts are delayed]
August 31 at 12:52am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Festina lente
August 31 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Aeneas does not personally overcome death, but his founding of Rome, the city that incarnates the eternal rule of Jupiter, is an amazing anticipation of Christ's victory over death and the subsequent role that Rome would play in that great victory. I marvel at Virgil's insight that Rome's rule was to be eternal.
August 31 at 12:56am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But how does Aeneas found Rome?
August 31 at 12:57am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond He plants his sword in the body of Turnus. The Latin for "plant" and "found" is the same, yes?
August 31 at 12:58am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond condo, condere
August 31 at 1:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger sub pectore condit
August 31 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger then what is the meaning of that? I took it quite other.
August 31 at 1:06am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I have always loved Homer more than Virgil, but I am awed by Virgil's presentiment of our desire that what is eternal be incarnated in the world. For Homer, the eternal realm of Olympus and the world of men remain separate realms. For Virgil, the eternal and the here and now come together forever in Rome. While Virgil seems to have viewed this politically, nevertheless he was right beyond his wildest dreams.
August 31 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Turnus is the new Achilles who must be destroyed by the new Hector once the remnant of Troy has fulfilled the will of Jupiter. First Greece conquered Troy, but ultimately Troy (Rome) conquers Greece.
August 31 at 1:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger sub pectore?
August 31 at 1:10am · Like
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John Ruplinger well it seems i have it all upside down. Have to get off my head here.
August 31 at 1:12am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The founding act. Why in the chest? I don't know.
August 31 at 1:12am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But as I recall, doesn't Aeneas become righteously angry when he sees the belt on Turnus which depicts the destruction of Troy by Achilles' son? The belt represents the order of civilized life which Rome will now establish on earth for all nations.
August 31 at 1:15am · Like
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John Ruplinger To tell the truth i am horrified by what i see in the Aeneid.
August 31 at 1:16am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Why is that?
August 31 at 1:16am · Like
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John Ruplinger righteous anger or revenge. And what is depicted is not order though it is beautifully done, beautiful but horrifying.
August 31 at 1:19am · Like
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Adrw Lng Is the ending shocking just to us moderns? Was it intended to be abrupt?
August 31 at 1:22am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The key, I think, is the belt of Pallas which depicts the right order of political life. Aeneas' anger when he sees the belt moves him to plant (found) the sword which brings the old world to an end and establishes the new order according to Jupiter's will.
August 31 at 1:23am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond What god can now unfold for me in song
August 31 at 1:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger But as to the war, i see that Aeneas brings destruction upon the Saturnial peace of Latinus.
August 31 at 1:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger but i will have to look at it anew.
August 31 at 1:26am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What god can now unfold for me in song
all the bitterness and butchery
and deaths of chieftains--driven now by Turnus,
now by the Trojan hero, each in turn
throughout that field? O Jupiter, was it
your will that nations destined to eternal
peace should have clashed in such tremendous turmoil?
I think Virgil's answer is "yes".
August 31 at 1:28am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What appears on the belt of Pallas, mentioned in Book X at line 683, is first described in Book II, line 675. Check it out and see what you think.
August 31 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but what possible happiness for Lavinia and their marriage?
August 31 at 1:32am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It does not seem to be about personal happiness (unlike Odysseus' and Penelope's reunion in Homer). Were it about personal happiness, Aeneas would never have left Dido. He was helping her to build up the city of Carthage, Rome's mortal enemy (!), when Jupiter ordered him to leave and fulfill his fate.
August 31 at 1:34am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond There we see Aeneas' piety insofar as he subordinates his will to that of Jupiter.
August 31 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng i.e. the common good
August 31 at 1:38am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng and Divine Providence
August 31 at 1:39am · Like
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Adrw Lng Also, I never thought I'd see this or be there for it?
August 31 at 1:40am · Like
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Adrw Lng Guess yet?
August 31 at 1:40am · Like
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Adrw Lng TEN THOUSAND "at"
August 31 at 1:40am · Like · 7
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Jonathan Monnereau Wow
August 31 at 1:41am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Earlier Aeneas carried his father on his back and held his son by his hand--past, present and future united--when he left Troy to begin his journey to found Rome. Piety: that species of the virtue of justice which demands special reverence toward God the Father, the patria, and parents, each of which gives the gift of life and therefore can never be repaid.
August 31 at 1:41am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha Cheers everyone!
August 31 at 1:46am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I will have to look at it in the morning but deka myria thanks.
August 31 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond 'T is not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
August 31 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird YAY, congratulations on your diligence and hard work. The Never Ending Thread is amazing.
August 31 at 1:52am · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Jonathan Monnereau: How are you NOW just getting involved in this?
August 31 at 1:53am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund My SAT scores were miserable; TAC only accepted me out of loyalty to my parents. But I think intelligence is overrated anyways. I have been young and am now old, and never have I seen any evidence that more intelligent people are more happy. Same with worldly success. Plus: I think my dining room is better than that of the smart people who went to prestigious schools and made it big in the world:
August 31 at 2:07am · Like · 6
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Megan Baird Pater Edmund: where is that? It's lovely.
August 31 at 2:08am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Also: I agree with Matthew up to a point on TAC tutors needing a little more fresh air. I think they should definitely get sabbaticals ever seven years.
August 31 at 2:08am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund It's my monastery: Stift Heiligenkreuz
August 31 at 2:09am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird My graduate school was pretty lovely.
August 31 at 2:09am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I used to dorm in what was an old cloister. My bedroom was literally 6 steps away from an old Gothic chapel. It was really one of the most beautiful dorms ever.
August 31 at 2:11am · Like
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Adrw Lng Pater Edmund is one of the most erudite people I have ever met, and one of the happiest
August 31 at 2:11am · Like · 3
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Megan Baird I am pleased to make your acquaintance, Pater Edmund - your brother was in my class at TAC.
August 31 at 2:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The only problem with your dining room, Pater Edmund is the very unappetizing exhortation, "Ad mensam ut ad crucem," written on the ceiling.
August 31 at 2:19am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman
August 31 at 2:19am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Where did you go to graduate school Megan?
August 31 at 2:31am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You are making me want to be a monk Pater Edmund
August 31 at 2:32am · Like
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Megan Baird Dominican University right outside of Chicago. Lovely, lovely campus.
August 31 at 2:33am · Like
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Megan Baird I ended up rooming in the same place where I had my first holy Communion - Fr. John Hardon, SJ had given It to me in that very Chapel. Providential how I ended up there.
August 31 at 2:33am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Crazy growth while I was at a wedding....
Probably someone else already stated this, oh 2000 comments ago, but I am a pedant.
Wendy Irene, no, no no.
Just cause is not grave cause. Any first semester canon law or moral theology student knows they are distinct concepts. If even a pope used them interchangeably, then he is butchering language and failing to say much at all, and since he would know better, he is being terrible. More likely, as different hands craft papal documents and speeches, the contradiction of just cause versus grave cause was because of one of those ghostwriters.
A just cause, e.g., if any reasonable inconvenience arises. A grave cause means a grave inconvenience, a physical or moral impossibility (by moral I do not mean only possible with sin, but impossible to do within reasonable means)
A just cause basically means "is it rational" I repeat, these terms are not made up just for NFP, and we would be fools to gut out the meaning of terms and pretend they mean other things just because NFP
These terms have a long history and a specific meaning in that history. They are not equivalent.
E.g., for a grave cause I may miss Mass. IOW, whenever it is physically or morally impossible to go. For a just cause I need not make up a lesser part of Mass I missed (say I came in at the Epistle). I do not need to assert moral impossibility, I can simply assert a rational reason, such as I am meeting extended family for breakfast and cannot hang around for the next Mass to make up that part.
Or, e.g., a priest may be granted excardination for any just cause. A bishop cannot refuse except for grave cause.
What this means is that a priest can request to leave the LA archdiocese and go to Cheyenne. He gets the approval of Cheyenne, and then asks +Gomez. His reason, perhaps, is traffic bothers him excessively and he needs clean air. That is a just cause. Not a high standard there. +Gomez says no, I want you to remain as you are popular with your congregation and a good fit. Wel the priest would then appeal and he would win against Gomez. That the priest is a good fit, and the bishop wants him to remain is rational, it is a "just cause" but not a grave cause. A grave cause might be "I am sorry but you are the only priest that speaks Urdu and we need an Urdu speaking priest" or if there is an extreme shortage of priests and the removal of this one would significantly affect the diocese, etc.
See the difference? I know that sloppy papal ghostwriters have used both. I don't care. They are already imbued with meaning, they are not ad hoc terms. The best distinction, really, is that spacing children requires only a just cause, avoiding children a grave cause.
Or else we have a simple contradiction. But John Paul II used the terms properly. Yes I know that Chris West and others speak differently because they have never bothered studying the tradition and learning what terms actually mean. But you will see that JPII, at least, when he uses just cause is always referring to spacing. When grave cause is used, it is used for avoidance of pregnancy. Either these are different, or frankly we have to reject John Paul II, as I dang well know that Pius XII used the terms correctly and as traditionally employed, and I know JPII sometimes takes a word with an already established meaning and uses it differently (the word "election" which he conflates with calling in on encyclical)
August 31 at 2:37am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, the best Thomist before St. Thomas was St. Severinus Boethius...duh!
August 31 at 2:40am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Wendy Irene, you should see this^
August 31 at 2:43am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Addendum: I don't mean reject JPII, but reject his use of terms, i.e. fly back to those using them in the proper sense. I think the distinction of mere spacing from avoidance works for understand these terms being used properly. If I am wrong, then I fall back to grave cause, not just cause.
Proportionality is important, after all a rational reason for one thing is not for another. But it only gives a starting point, just says take that to rational, grave says take that to gravely inconvenient not to.
August 31 at 2:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, can you give me a summary of the positions about which you are discussing with Wendy Irene?
I apparently missed a lot.
August 31 at 2:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Please and thank you.
August 31 at 2:55am · Like
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Megan Baird I think this thread needs periodic synopses.
August 31 at 2:56am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Impossible.
August 31 at 2:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Don't worry, too much, though. The Thread periodically re-manifests certain dynamics of its Threadness, through various prophets etc.
August 31 at 2:59am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why do threads like this not happen in more reasonable places like the TAC Alumni page (which would be searchable)?
August 31 at 3:09am · Like · 2
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Megan Baird The Thread springs forth where it wills.
August 31 at 3:10am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well it was 11 hour ago. She essentially said that since it was a major matter, the "suspension of the ordinary activity" or something like that, then, since cause is proportional, this is weighty enough that any just cause will also be grave.
So, to be clear, she is not the laxist here. But I do think that, whatever the proportionality, the basic meanings are distinct and it would be just very bad and almost purposely misleading to ever use the term "just cause" if you also meant grave, as if those terms normally could mean the same thing. And likewise I think the cause needed, while still serious (because of proportionality) for spacing is still different in kind than avoiding children. IOW, the decision to have no more children, or to set a cap, seems to me to require a greater burden then, hey I just gave two births in 11 months apart and physically need to recover.
I tend, as I did in a much earlier comment, to just use "serious" when speaking of NFP...it avoids the controversy, and yes there is a controversy....many NFP promoters harp on just cause and argue about NFP is necessary for all marriages and is the 8th sacrament, and will improve communication. And if it doesn't that if because you are defective...yeah those people exist, and in spades....and it also underscores that any use for the sake of doing the horizontal tango without producing babies requires something more than a slight reason.
I imagine she and I are not disagreeing all that substantially. And her point is very valid that the proportionality makes even a just cause more serious. But I do think the proper terms are important.
August 31 at 3:10am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Also, I am not sure I see it as a suspension of any aspect of the marital vocation a she put it. Rather, when used rightly, isn't it in furtherance of the ends of that vocation?
August 31 at 3:11am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz There is still a TAC alumni page?
August 31 at 3:12am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, it is secret and we have to let you in. https://www.facebook.com/groups/2200569229/?fref=ts
Thomas Aquinas College Alumni
312 Members
Joined
August 31 at 3:13am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau There is also an official one: Thomas Aquinas College Alumni Association
August 31 at 3:13am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But the first one is the one where any chatting might happen (if it did)
August 31 at 3:14am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh, I thought we were referring to an older, pre-Facebook era site that I knew of
August 31 at 3:16am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yeah -- that discussion site might still exist. I haven't checked in a long time.
August 31 at 3:16am · Like
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Joshua Kenz BTW, I am back to the horror of what appearing to be spamming by one Weinberg.....That was horrifyin...thankfully, since not Peregrine, I could block....
August 31 at 3:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For five hours, now, The Neverending Thread has slept.
August 31 at 8:43am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mornin'
August 31 at 8:45am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Soooo... where were we?
August 31 at 8:46am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hey Pater Edmund-- I read your thing.
August 31 at 8:48am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg The Daisy
In the morning, open yawning.
In the evening, close your awning.
Tell me dear, I have forgot,
Do you love or love me not?
Will the horse and calf be gone,
Will the rain chase them away,
Will you ask your leprechaun,
And pixies out to play?
Will they speak, before they go.
If you love me, let me know?
If they implore you love me not,
Again once more I have forgot.
August 31 at 8:51am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw Lng-- Hemmingway is not a great writer. Caleb is the greatest living philosopher (or he will be). Greatest living novelist is Marilynne Robinson.
August 31 at 8:52am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I like your conviction.
August 31 at 8:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hemmingway was a great journalist
August 31 at 8:52am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks.
August 31 at 8:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And a really, really good writer of short stories
August 31 at 8:54am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg If math is the core language of nature, then how come the most important things in life and being cannot be quantified by math. For example, the way several of the Native American Tribes converted from belief in a Great Spirit to Catholicism, and how they maintain their culture, does not translate into the language of math. This being the case, why is math so central at TAC? Why is it so central to the proposal, when the proposal seeks to restore true freedom to academia? Is math not so central to academia? If it is not, maybe it is good there's no connection between TAC and modern academia. Just askin.
I agree, Hemmingway was not a great writer.
August 31 at 9:11am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I like the idea of Thread Awards. Where are we on nominations?
August 31 at 8:56am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think I deserve one.
August 31 at 8:57am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think I've earned one.
August 31 at 8:57am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe On that we can all agree
August 31 at 8:58am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg But in lieu of an award, send donations to the TNET Foundation.
August 31 at 8:58am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe (1) Best insult.
(2) Most humorous.
(3) Most high fantastical.
August 31 at 9:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe 4) Best adaptation of a classic poem.
(5) Best image
(6) Best tragical/historical/comical
August 31 at 9:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I would also suggest 7) biggest freak-out
August 31 at 9:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and nominate Isak Benedict.
August 31 at 9:04am · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Where should I start with Robinson Samantha? I haven't read a single novel of hers
August 31 at 9:07am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There aren't many. Just read Gilead, then Home, then if you would like something beautifully creepy, Housekeeping
August 31 at 9:09am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Best feigned outrage?
August 31 at 9:10am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Joshua Kenz one question I have for you is with regard to gravity in liturgical abuses... Example I'm wondering about: There are a lot of polka masses in my area...I find them totally gauche and of course there is no basis for them, but how gravely wrong are they? I have a hard time thinking about it because it makes me mad to think about it haha
August 31 at 9:11am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Best perceived insult award... best prank... best ad hoc prank... best one liner.
August 31 at 9:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What are mathematicals? How do they exist?
August 31 at 9:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Best one-liner from a fictitious persona: throw me Isak. If anyone can find that needle in this haystack, I will send them a free book.
August 31 at 9:13am · Like
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Adrw Lng Samantha well alright I just bought Gilead this fine Sunday morning
August 31 at 9:14am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I don't know. What are mathematicals?
August 31 at 9:14am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You won't regret it!
August 31 at 9:14am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Things which are math?
August 31 at 9:15am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm so pleased!
August 31 at 9:14am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What would a Best Perceived Insult be?
August 31 at 9:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I think I'm a solid contender for best feigned outrage
August 31 at 9:15am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Numbers are lines.
August 31 at 9:16am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Maybe one should answer the question about what mathematical beings are before,
1. Calling them the language of nature
2. Figuring out why it is important in TAC
August 31 at 9:16am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If numbers aren't lines, then what are they? Hmmmm?
August 31 at 9:17am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^ I can hear Molly Gustin, now.
August 31 at 9:18am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's basically all I remember from senior math
August 31 at 9:18am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, even that would still leave us with the question, "What are lines, and how do they exist."
August 31 at 9:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia don't you remember all those literalist people squinting with dismay as they tried to picture non-Euclidean geometry, and laughing on the inside? (I lied laughing on the outside)
Or was that just me
August 31 at 9:30am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe I was one of those literalist people. ::::feigned outrage:::::
August 31 at 9:32am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Beitia for best insult / humor. And i think he competes with himself on that. He calls it "amusing himself".
August 31 at 9:38am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I thought my senior section was going to lynch me first semester when Molly told me in class, "you don't have to take the final Mr. Baytee, you already know everything"
August 31 at 9:39am · Unlike · 10
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Michael Beitia but I got to sleep in that day
August 31 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I was at a conference last summer at which Marilynne Robinson spoke, but I was too shy to introduce myself to her. She has a new book coming out soon: http://amzn.com/0374187614
Lila: A Novel
A new American classic from the Pulitzer Prize–winning author of Gilead and HousekeepingMarilynne Robinson,...
AMAZON.COM
August 31 at 9:45am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Molly said something similar to me. It has helpful that in her mind, myself, Joel HF and another friend, Joe Kenney, were all indistinguishable.
August 31 at 9:45am · Unlike · 6
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Daniel Lendman Our merits multiplied.
August 31 at 9:45am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe !!!!
August 31 at 9:47am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund thank you for this excellent news!!
August 31 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I went to a lecture of hers once and got my copy of Home autographed
August 31 at 9:48am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Then I babbled about how much I was looking forward to another novel from her, but that she should take her time, but not too much time. It was embarrassing
August 31 at 9:49am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Mrs. Gustin likewise could not tell the difference between me and Monica Murphy.
August 31 at 9:49am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe She also claimed that it was impossible for anyone to do so because we were in fact identical.
August 31 at 9:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have never read this novelist, I am afraid I have not made it into the 21st century with my literary pursuits. I take it she comes highly recommended.
August 31 at 9:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Molly Gustin was probably not wholly on top of her game when we were there.
August 31 at 9:50am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Pulitzer for Gilead
August 31 at 9:51am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, that is an understatement, sadly
August 31 at 9:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And it's about Ames' wife! This is so exciting!
August 31 at 9:55am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia she wasn't on top of her game in the late 90s
August 31 at 9:56am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If you somehow happened to be on her good side, though, she was great fun.
August 31 at 10:14am · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund She liked me because of my ancestry, but sadly I never had her in class. I did have her on my defense panel though. She thought my thesis was silly.
August 31 at 10:17am · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe So, she hadn't *totally* lost it.
August 31 at 10:22am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe : )
August 31 at 10:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ouch.
August 31 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson It looks as if this particular incarnation of the Thread is coming to a slow and painful end. May it rise from the ashes in a form more powerful than we can possibly imagine.
August 31 at 10:51am · Like
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Sean Robertson By the way, Pater, I met your father this weekend. I am excited to study under him this year.
August 31 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The thread just wakes up slowly.
August 31 at 10:52am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Enlighten us ignorant ones. Why are mathematicals essential to peace among the nations, salvation and the restoration of genuine academic freedom; and why has the rest of humanity missed this?
August 31 at 10:56am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Forget it Daniel. I'm happy believing that you are just too intellectually advanced for someone like me to ever grasp what you are saying.
August 31 at 10:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Too bad, I was in the middle of a response.
August 31 at 10:58am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'll just take in on faith that you have solved the problem. Thanks for your service to humanity.
August 31 at 10:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Truthfully, I don't have answers to all the questions I proposed.
August 31 at 10:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman At least not answers that I would call anything more than suppositions.
August 31 at 10:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg OK, either do I. We are just threadworn soujourners...
August 31 at 10:59am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^With that I can heartily agree.
August 31 at 10:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg And sorry for my temporary lapse into troll-dom. At least you are genuinely trying to shed light.
August 31 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And that, my friend, is priceless.
August 31 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, there have been many instances of insincere questions, so I don't blame you.
August 31 at 11:01am · Like
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Scott Weinberg But, truly, in my limited experience, TAC alum are the only ones asking the central question in light of Faith? The rest of the academic world has forgotten.
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Pater Edmund Answers all questions: http://www.scribd.com/.../Klein-Greek-Mathematical...
Klein - Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of Algebra
Klein - Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origin of...
SCRIBD.COM
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Pater Edmund Are separated souls persons?
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Pater Edmund Commentary on Klein: http://books.google.at/books?id=-e-Mn50Q0soC&lpg=PP1...
The Origin of the Logic of Symbolic Mathematics
Burt C. Hopkins presents the first in-depth study of the...
BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT
August 31 at 11:07am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund, no.
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Daniel Lendman A person is an individual substance of a rational nature, but a separated soul is not a substance,
Therefore, etc. Q.E.D.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante then why are you praying to them Daniel
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Daniel Lendman Out of piety.^ Also, I have no problems acknowledging that separated souls are capable of intersession.
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Daniel Lendman Or many other activities.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante then they're pretty much persons
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Daniel Lendman Separated souls are still individuated secundum quid, through their order to "this matter."
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right that's Thomas' very weird save; but in that case, you might as well call them persons, even with the proleptic instantiation
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Daniel Lendman We often imagine them thus. And I would certainly not deny that to the little old lady in the pew. But, properly, metaphysically and theologically, that is incorrect.
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John Boyer Klein is clutch.
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Daniel Lendman Because of the above argument.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It's a problem more or less peculiar to Thomas; other Scholastics dont fall into it as much
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Daniel Lendman Although, I suppose if one thought being a substance accidental to being a person and that being in a relation of knowing and loving is essential, then I suppose one would call them persons.
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Daniel Lendman Is this^^ the sort of thing you have in mind?
August 31 at 11:36am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm just saying other scholastics often inflect "substance" differently; Thomas' save is unusual, and dictated by his read of Aristotle
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Jehoshaphat Escalante as you know Thomas' account works by something almost like miracle
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Joel HF Molly's mind was largely absent by the time I was there, absent gazing upon the forms themselves. When she did descend periodically, it was either to shed the reflected light of the radiance of the forms, or to tell someone that they were, and I quote "just stupid as hell!"
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Daniel Lendman From a magisterial angle: Is it fair to say that the Church takes Thomas' when it describes the soul as forma corporis? With this definition, it seems to me that it follows immediately that the soul is a principle of substance; not a substance itself.
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Joel HF I only had her for music, where she was more consistently good and had relatively few lapses. I hear senior math was a bit hit or miss.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and when you yourself say "they" or "it", if there's no substantiality there at all, what is happening grammatically? And the Church can describe the soul as forma corporis without committing to your conclusion, since it doesn't commit to the Thomistic middle term there
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Joel HF Escalante--what are the other scholastic options? My knowledge of scholasticism outside of Thomas is virtually non-existent.
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John Boyer Her senior math, at the end, was more miss than hit, Joel.
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Joel HF So I've heard, and how very, very sad. I had the pleasure of having Richard for senior math, and it was an unmitigated delight.
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Daniel Lendman I admit the case is hard, and not very clean. But if you will permit a perhaps rather fanciful argument from fittingness: So, Thomas holds that the separated soul is only a quasi substance. It is a principle of substance and is still referred to "this matter." Thomas even says in one of his commentaries on St. Paul's epistles that it is nigh impossible to demonstrate the souls immortality without faith. This is primarily because the separated soul doesn't really make sense. I think the reason Thomas is okay with this is because he recognizes that humans are not supposed to die. Our deaths are unnatural in a way that the death of plants and animals is not. The separated soul is not a human person, but, as it were, longs to be so.
August 31 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Thoughts?
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John Boyer Where does he claim the demonstration of immortality is hard?
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Joel HF And much of what is missing, for the separated soul, is restored (for the saints at least) in the order of grace, yes? I haven't thought about this since senior year, but I seem to remember Nieto saying something like that when you and I, Daniel, were at his house for dinner one night.
August 31 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund John Boyer: what does "clutch" mean?
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Daniel Lendman ^That is my understanding.
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Daniel Lendman John Boyer, I think it is in his commentary on Corinthians. His language is actually shockingly strong there.
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John Boyer You need to understand what up with symbolic math, you turn to Klein. He gives you what you need.
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz might remember.
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Daniel Lendman I will try to look it up now.
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Joel HF Daniel--but you could say that about anything!
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Joel HF (Namely, that Kenz might remember.)
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Daniel Lendman That is fair.
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Pater Edmund «But there seem to be two doubts about this reasoning: one is that what the Apostle says does not seem to be universally true, namely, that Christians are confident in this life only, because they could say that, although our bodies do not possess any good things except in this life, which is mortal, yet according to the soul they have many good things in the other life. This can be turned aside in two ways: in one way, because if the resurrection of the body is denied, it is not easy, yea it is difficult, to sustain the immortality of the soul. For it is clear that the soul is naturally united to the body and is departed from it, contrary to its nature and per accidens. Hence the soul devoid of its body is imperfect, as long as it is without the body. But it is impossible that what is natural and per se be finite and, as it were, nothing; and that which is against nature and per accidens be infinite, if the soul endures without the body. And so, the Platonists positing immortality, posited re-incorporation, although this is heretical. Therefore, if the dead do not rise, we will be confident only in this life. In another way, because it is clear that man naturally desires his own salvation; but the soul, since it is part of man’s body, is not an entire man, and my soul is not I; hence, although the soul obtains salvation in another life, nevertheless, not I or any man. Furthermore, since man naturally desires salvation even of the body, a natural desire would be frustrated.»
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Pater Edmund http://www.dhspriory.org/thomas/SS1Cor.htm#152
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Joel HF JA Escalante--I'd still like to hear more about what you alluded to above--namely that the other scholastics would handle it differently.
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Daniel Lendman Thank you Pater Edmund, but I think there is another even stronger text.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Gentlemen I have to be off to church- but don't confuse arguments for the resurrection (Pater's quote above) with discussions of the substantiality of the separated soul. Joel, more perhaps later tonight re other scholastic, but yes, you're right about "grace"- as I said earlier. Thomists tend to save the situation with a miraculum ex machina, by having God miraculously preserve the spirits against nature. But I'll leave with one more thought: it's easy to substract "rational" from substance, but subtract "substance' from "rational", and still have a rationality existing so much so that *one can pray to it* (I mean, I don't, but you do), is quite a move and seems nonsensical. One is left then with "quasi", but exactly what that means needs to be explained.
August 31 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman JA Escalante, I don't think I am confusing the resurrection with the separated soul. I only brought that up to reinforce the notion that the separation of the soul is highly unnatural.
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Daniel Lendman The key text I was interested in is this: "it is not easy, yea it is difficult, to sustain the immortality of the soul."
August 31 at 12:33pm · Like
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Joel HF So, a lot has been said (rightly perhaps) about the lack of practical options out of TAC. So, would you send your kids to TAC? Samantha? Peterson? Lendman?
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Joel HF Particularly given the lack of teaching w/r/t writing.
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Matthew J. Peterson Inclined towards it, depending on where the school is at at that time. It will get worse before it gets better, I think.
But I would take a number of steps to ensure they are well informed as to the next step in ways I wasn't.
The thing is, if you are given to see clearly graduating from TAC doesn't necessarily hold anyone back from whatever they want to do next.
For me, summers are key. I would have them do charitable/missionary type work the first two summer and them pre-professional work/internships the last. Plus use the time beforehand to supplement.
August 31 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Using summers that way is great, but it assumes no need to work and make money.
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Matthew J. Peterson But much depends on how the school turns post founders and my kids. There are other places with different downsides and upsides that are much better on the practical/leadership side.
August 31 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. My kids will all work crap jobs and pre-profesh internships when in HS.
I know many graduates who think money needs to be found for a summer program getting TAC kids out into charitable service.
August 31 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As far as internships and pre-profesh programs go, you are ultimately losing money and time if you aren't doing this summer of junior year.
August 31 at 1:46pm · Like
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Valerie Acors Thornburg ...still listening... I want my kid to go.
August 31 at 1:47pm · Like
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Joel HF Re: "How the school turns out post-founders," I guess I agree, in a certain sense. But I think I disagree with something you said thousands of comments ago, Matthew J. Peterson. Namely, I don't think that (as of '06 at least) the 2nd and 3rd generation of tutors were all worse than the founders. I think that there was more of a mix, but the best tutors while I was there were up there intellectually with the founders.
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Marie Pitt-Payne I'm guessing your children are pretty young, Matthew - they way you talk about what they are going to do in high school, during their summers, etc... I presume you do intend to give them some say in it?
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Bekah Sims Andrews I was blown away by the opportunities that were presented for my sister at Hillsdale. That's my first choice for my daughters right now.
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Brian Gerrity It's still a little ways out, but as of now I'd be thrilled to see my kids go to TAC.
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Samantha Cohoe Depends on a lot, especially what the school is like in 12 years, and what my kids' goals are, and whether we've reconverted by then. I did try to convince my little sister to go there, though, and that was just last year.
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course. I'm flexible and it depends on the kid. But I am very aware of what parents who know the system do - and do systematically.
And any TAC grad needs to understand the opportunities a profesh liberal arts college can give their kids. And basically imitate that. Thankfully, I'll have my own connections, especially by then.
But really people need to know all the other fantastic educational options out there before they decide.
August 31 at 1:58pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I think we'll be in a decent position to remedy *some* of TAC's practical failures
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Samantha Cohoe As parents I mean
August 31 at 2:00pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne That's fair enough.
I guess as a high school teacher I see the other side... the impact of parents who are certain that their children are going to live the lives the parents have chosen for them.
August 31 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Bekah Sims Andrews: I was thinking more of the choice between TAC and the sort of schools Matthew was talking about--e.g. Pomona, Williams, Amherst, that sort of thing. Or even a big university like UVA or Michigan. I.e. schools that regularly place their students in prestigious graduate programs.
August 31 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like
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Brian Gerrity As a Hollywood mogul, your connections with be innumerable, Peterson.
August 31 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne I say this as a TAC grad who is also a parent with 1 at TAC, 1 at Northpark studying nursing and the third currently applying to all the top chemical engineering schools she can... (With 3 more to go...)
Never could have predicted any of it!
August 31 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Nope won't send mine there (at this point)
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Michael Beitia of course the last name would probably preclude them from being accepted anyway, so the point is moot
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Joel HF It isn't like TAC doesn't have *any* students get into prestigious positions. I know of at least two grads who work (worked?) Goldman Sachs, and one who had an interview at Google. This is just off the top of my head.
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Michael Beitia yes?
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Joshua Kenz 1. Molly Gustin was definitely out of it by the time I had her. She knew me though, and insisted for 2 years before actually having me in class that she had had me in class.
2. She tried setting me up with girls, twice. Once based on similar etymological meanings of last names
3. If the entire class took the class seriously, we could have made it work. But they didn't. That is not them as much as her failing ability.
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Joel HF So, Beitia, even if they really wanted to go there?
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Michael Beitia she was excellent in 98-99 and 99-00
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Michael Beitia NOPE.
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Joel HF ^Expand.
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Michael Beitia I would but I just got home from Mass and have to run out again.... you'll just have to wait...... bwahahahahaha
August 31 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF What does Kenz mean? (Etymologically, that is.)
August 31 at 2:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg New TNET iron-on decal!
$9.99 while supplies last
1-800-THREAD-NOW
August 31 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond My children have each gone to a different school: the first to TAC, the second to DeSales University; the third to the University of Dallas; the fourth to Providence and then transferred to Christendom; and the fifth to AMDA in NYC (a conservatory to study acting). I have four more children still at home, the sixth child being currently a senior in high school. While I think TAC is the best choice without qualification, it would not have been the best choice for each child, especially since they did not choose it. And as Bekah noted when asking Matthew about his children having any choice about how they might spend their summers, you will find when it comes to college that you will have to take their choice into account. TAC is not for everyone, to be sure, but I think its strengths and weaknesses should be presented to a child who is capable and interested so that he can make an informed choice.
August 31 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger [as an outsider, definitely not. We are preparing our feral offspring for Mad Max Academy.]
August 31 at 2:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The meaning of my name she took from the root as being "ken" similar to kennen or kenntis, and hence meaning "knowledge" Won't say the girls name, but it was translated by Gustin as meaning "Idea" And from there an inappropriate knowing of the Ideas, you get the drift....
August 31 at 2:17pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond What Marie mentions above is so true--the danger of parents wanting their children to live the lives the parents have chosen for them.
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John Ruplinger and Jeffrey I did spend time on the looking into the belt, but later. It was at X.495. A lot there . Thanks again.
August 31 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Wow. Tutor match making! And here you folks were complaining that the tutors didn't do enough for you!
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Jeffrey Bond I will check out X 495. Thanks, John.
August 31 at 2:21pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne (Jeffrey Bond - you may remember me as a TAC student of yours - Marie Grimley at the time. If I had followed my Dad's wishes, I would have been a business major at Loyola Marymount and then I would have gone to Law School.)
August 31 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Or Dan Daniel Lendman, I think you are thinking of lectio 4 or 5 on cap. 15 1 Corinthians.
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Joshua Kenz But got to run
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, Marie, I remember you well, but I did not recognize your married name. As you can see, I am still approving of the things you say!
August 31 at 2:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What subject(s) are you teaching, Marie?
August 31 at 2:27pm · Like
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Joel HF I was principally wondering what those I tagged (and everybody else of course) would say if a child of theirs had an interest in TAC, but was undecided. I know there are lots of parents who give their children a choice between TAC and working at McDonald's, but I don't think anyone who's posted on the thread thus far would answer to that description.
August 31 at 2:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne HAHA! (I am better at Latin now!)
I ended up with an MA in Theology and I am presently teaching Senior level Theology at an Archdiocesan high school in Wisconsin.
Btw - my Dad was won over. When I graduated, he told me he wished he had known about TAC when my siblings were choosing a school, because he was convinced I received the best education. That coming from a Scottish immigrant who never attended college but - through self-study - passed the CPA exam and had his own very successful accounting firm.
August 31 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Wonderful news, Marie, both about your teaching and your father. Does the high school actually support orthodoxy in the classroom? Or do you have to sneak it in where you can?
August 31 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Truth is I am inclined to send only a couple kids and TAC is on my short list, but I am thoroughly disillusioned with higher education. Learning a trade for most is financially and in other ways preferable.
August 31 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Thanks, Jeffrey Bond. I am the Department Chair and have full support of our Admin team, local Pastors, Superintendent and Bishops to teach the Catholic Faith. We are experiencing a real renewal here. All 5 of our lay Theology teachers are grads of TAC or FUS (or both - in my case) and our two part time Priests on the faculty are completely solid. We are the first high school to implement this curriculum/platform - original sources: https://verbum.com/
Verbum.com | Catholic Bible Study Tools for the Modern Church
Verbum helps you study the Faith. Understand the...
VERBUM.COM
August 31 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Gustin declared on multiple occasions that "Mr. Boyer knows everything."
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Jeffrey Bond Wow. I will check out Verbum. Thanks for the link. And congratulations on being department chair. It amazes me to hear that such a place exists. How many students are there in the high school? And do the other departments support the mission?
August 31 at 2:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Re. The professional stuff. Both my parents graduated from tac, so I guess they saw what you guys are seeing My dad was pretty insistent that I get a real job and work a year or two before college. (A) because older people often benefit more from TAC and (b) because it would help me be confident about finding a job after graduation.
I'm pretty certain he was right. I hope to ensure that my children have marketable skills by the end of highschool and some on the job experience in the professional world before college.
August 31 at 2:43pm · Like · 6
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Jeffrey Bond Edward, is your father one of the founders of the Lyceum in Cleveland? Or is that a different Langley? Was that who you were asking me about last night?
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Marie Pitt-Payne We are a "system", technically - Pre-K4 through 12. Opened in 2010.
Two buildings - elementary in one, middle and high school in the other.
Last year's numbers: PreK to 5 = 283; Middle School (6-8) = 206; High School = 320. I know the numbers have gone up this year. In May, our Board approved a Catholic Identity Committee to ensure our various departments/extra curriculars are on board. We had to choose 3 action steps per department which we are going to try to implement to improve Catholic identity - so we have work to do - but way, way better than the high school I attended.
August 31 at 2:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Does he work with Luke Macik?
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Jeffrey Bond Impressive numbers, Marie. It sounds like a great project.
August 31 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I wonder if it would be helpful to reverse the traditional expectations of college and high school: vocational studies are often easier to do well than the liberal arts and having professional experience might benefit someone's approach to TAC's curriculum.
August 31 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Honestly, I think it is the work of St. Joseph. God's grace is really evident.
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Edward Langley Jeffrey, that was my uncle
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Jeffrey Bond OK. Now I'm getting things straightened out. Is he still at the Lyceum?
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Edward Langley Yeah, but he is no longer the headmaster.
I asked about him, because I think he was at TAC in the late eighties.
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John Ruplinger that's a grea school. I visited once. Mark is a good man. Happy students there.
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, I have met a number of the Lyceum graduates. Very impressive what they are doing there. Mark and I may have overlapped at TAC, but I never had him in class.
August 31 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's really too bad that Catholic high schools struggle to pay their teachers decent wages.
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Jeffrey Bond Amen.
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Edward Langley Mark was in John Nieto's class, and they were quite close friends.
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John Ruplinger that is not the real problem though. The bert teachers dont come for money that isnt there.
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Jeffrey Bond I know John Nieto, but he was not a student at TAC when I was teaching there, so I guess Mark and I did not overlap.
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Scott Weinberg I think whatever we do with our education, and that of our children, we need to be solution oriented. To do that, we need to shift our focus from why things went wrong in the World, the Church and academia, and why we have proposed 'such and such' to fix the problem. We need to focus on quiddity. The Logos is what binds the Hellenic tradition with the Christian tradition. The Logos is the Thread. The Logos is the imprint of every good thought; it is imprinted on the all of nature's causes; imprinted on the DNA of nature; stamped into the mathemtaical equation, and onto the syllogism, imprinted onto the metaphor and into the enthymeme. It's the essence of the Sacraments and intercedes in the creation of our children. Every good invention of science, from penicilin to water in the desert, to clean water, to good food for the hungry, the Logos is at the heart of it all. It's the heart of Logic and the fullness of revelation, the Word of God and the Voice of His Church in Her dogma. So in all we do, we need to avail ourselves of the Logos, in Reason and Revelation and Dogma. Not to force it on anyone, but just to present it freely, in its various Catholic forms. The Logos is the healing remedy between medieval science and modern academia.
August 31 at 3:08pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62MrU8mHx4
Ethel Merman sings "Everything's Coming Up Roses"
One of her final appearances...still had it...even then.
YOUTUBE.COM
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Michael Beitia still curious, Joel?
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Joel HF Yes.
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Michael Beitia I think that the evolution of TAC has lead less toward the inquisitive soul and more toward the safe place for daddy's brood.
The education, while great, doesn't set up well for either grad school or professional life (as per Peterson's earlier critique)
and it puts the student in debt.
I'd rather my kids went into the seminary, or to a state school for engineering.
August 31 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or plumbers votech school. Plumbers have saved more lives than doctors
August 31 at 3:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Shouldn't the councils be called "plumbers of the church"? That's how the Church has flushed all the sh*t away
August 31 at 3:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree. Liberal arts or engineering - I actually started on the latter. As to liberal arts, I am writing her epitaph but maybe she is only mostly dead wherein lies my shadow of a hope . . . but then I generally only see things in hues of gray and black.
August 31 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think TAC's student debt is all that great compared to other schools, though.
August 31 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's better than graduating with a degree in gender studies and $50,000 in debt.
August 31 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no it isn't... but who wouldn't take 100K in debt at Princeton to start working at a hedge fund for 120K a year
August 31 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nobody takes 100K in debt at Princeton
August 31 at 3:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, seriously, why not have vocational studies at a high-school level?
You know, woodworking classes with specified projects and deadlines. Or computer programming classes? You could even do intensive math and science
August 31 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia FOR EXAMPLE, miss bleary eyed literalist
August 31 at 3:33pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger what is success?
August 31 at 3:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ok fine
August 31 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Heaven.
August 31 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Anywhere you have to take out 100K in loans in probably somewhere that won't get you the king of starting salary Princeton will, is my point
August 31 at 3:35pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia fair enough.
August 31 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Even if my kids were so inclined to be academics, I'd rather they had a shot at a tenure track job
August 31 at 3:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley Ivy league college financial aid, though, is the exception rather than the rule.
August 31 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Wouldn't you want your children to not have to worry about finances?
August 31 at 3:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger at least not be debt slaves.
August 31 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes and no about worrying about finances. Too much concern: very bad. Too much money: probably worse.
August 31 at 3:41pm · Unlike · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne I really think the issue of worrying about finances is way, way bigger than a TAC issue.
When we left California, my husband was in a sales job and I was at home with the kids. The only stay at home mom in my neighborhood - AND - the one with the most kids.
We came to the Midwest - he took a $50k pay cut and we had a better standard of living here than we did in So Cal.
Ultimately, when the kids went to school, I went to work. It is true that I would way rather stay at home, but we need the money and the health insurance. But - given all that is happened, I do see my work as Providential.
In a culture based on contraception and dual-income families, there is undue pressure put on fathers today because you are trying to compete in a totally whacked society.
August 31 at 3:43pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Thankfully God gives each what each needs. To those who would be destroyed by too little, He gives more. To those who would be destroyed by too much, He gives less.
August 31 at 3:43pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Boethius had it right on this issue.
August 31 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia That is a whole lot easier to say post hoc, Jeffrey.
August 31 at 3:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but it doesn't put food on the table.
August 31 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I am not saying it post hoc. I am saying it hic et nunc.
August 31 at 3:46pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Librarianship has turned out to be a fairly ideal career for me, finance wise. Sufficient money to live upon comfortably but not enough to corrupt my soul.
August 31 at 3:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "sorry kids, no sandwiches in your lunches because we're broke and out of bread, but God thinks you eat too much"
August 31 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I was also fortunate to go to a graduate school that was fairly generous in financial aid so I got out of there without a lot of debt.
August 31 at 3:48pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne You are right, Michael Beitia - about it not putting food on the table. But I would venture to guess that your finances suffer due to your adherence to the Gospel. Open to life.
August 31 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia now I know that God wants me to be poor because being comfortable would destroy me, I'm cool. Everything is awesome, we live in the best of all possible worlds
August 31 at 3:49pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Any other way of looking at it has bigger problems.
August 31 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I live comfortably because I'm single. It's just me I have to feed. If I had a family, I would most likely be in your shoes, Beitia.
August 31 at 3:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know if the Dr. Pangloss method is the best method
August 31 at 3:50pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No, not Dr. Pangloss. Boethius and the Gospel.
August 31 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger we and many i know are getting serious extra crosses. So Michael, if your feeling the crunch it is a good sign really.
August 31 at 3:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'd probably be better off if I lived in Texas, but I'd rather take a bullet than move back to Texas
August 31 at 3:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Chicago style!
August 31 at 3:51pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Nope. Everything will never be awesome if you are a Christian.... you are
living a life contrary to the culture. But I bet your kids know you love them, even on the days when they have less food than you would like. I'm poor, too, btw.
August 31 at 3:51pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird Texas isn't bad - just bloody hot in the summer.
August 31 at 3:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The heat was my favorite part
August 31 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Do you recall Sean Connery's character explaining to Eliot Ness the Chicago way?
August 31 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger doesnt make it much easier. And i am a whiner.
August 31 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the Untouchables?
August 31 at 3:52pm · Like
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Megan Baird At least it's not super-humid Midwest heat. And the winters are fairly mild.
August 31 at 3:53pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Great scene in the Church when Sean Connery's character (I forget the name) asks Ness if he really want to get Capone.
August 31 at 3:54pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If I knew how to post film clips, I would put it here for you.
August 31 at 3:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZ6eaL3S2E
The Chicago Way - The Untouchables (2/10) Movie CLIP (1987) HD
The Untouchables Movie Clip - watch all clips http://j.mp/...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 31 at 3:55pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Yes!
August 31 at 3:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Are you all teachers at Catholic high schools?
August 31 at 3:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia NO!
August 31 at 3:57pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry! No offense.
August 31 at 3:57pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The Lord hates a coward.
August 31 at 3:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia (but I did for one year many moons ago)
August 31 at 3:58pm · Like
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Megan Baird Not at all. I'm a librarian, although I do teach Spanish class.
August 31 at 3:58pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I think I am the only high school teacher here.
August 31 at 4:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger no
August 31 at 4:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i am on extended Sabbatical, licking my wounds and chomping at the bit. I love teaching.
August 31 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird I do teach one Spanish class for adults - might be starting a second one in the fall. I really do enjoy that.
August 31 at 4:07pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Was the extended sabbatical of your own choosing, John?
August 31 at 4:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger God's who crushes the proud. . .
August 31 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger actually my head was hit, severe brain trauma . . . and them . . . and then. . .
August 31 at 4:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What happened?
August 31 at 4:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i dropped our house on my head. I dont recommend it (jack slipped). But as to schools, i basically had to resign at the last 4 places and still dont think i could have done differently. The liberal arts catholic schools are a warzone. And its one of principalities and powers . . . the things i have seen
August 31 at 4:22pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Thoreau talks about the farmer walking down the road carrying his farm (or at least the weight of the mortgage) on his back. You did the old farmer one better and tried to put it on your head. As for your comment about the warzone, I completely agree. We must get together some day and trade war stories.
August 31 at 4:26pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne I'm aware of some of your war stories, Jeffrey Bond. You are a hero of mine.
August 31 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Aw, shucks.
August 31 at 4:31pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne As a model of doing what is right and fighting in spite of insane pressure....
August 31 at 4:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Truly I thank you, Marie, especially for your prayers.
August 31 at 4:33pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne You've got them.
August 31 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, as a late response to your question: I do not plan to 'send' my children anywhere. I am hopeful by the time they are 18 or there abouts, that they will be able to make a largely reasonable decision about their post-high school ambitions.
TAC was great for me. In fact, it was nigh perfect. I don't regret going there for a moment. My wife, however, did not go to TAC and having gone to the summer program, she realized that she would hate it. HATE IT. Consequently, I am open to my children going to whatever place best suits them.
I despise (for good or for ill) things that are done for such tawdry purposes as getting a high-paying job, or having lots of prestige.
Consequently, such considerations will have no bearing on the counsel I give my children. I will encourage them to do those things that are good in themselves.
But I am a fool, and I will always be in debt. So, there's that.
August 31 at 5:40pm · Unlike · 16
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Richard Delahide Ferrier What a great post, Daniel Lendman!
August 31 at 6:02pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I'm undecided about making my children go to TAC, on the one hand are all the horror stories about people who were forced to go to TAC. On the other hand there are people like my cousin Pat Coughlin who, in a toast, said that he was "grateful to his parents for making the best decision he didn't make" or something to that effect. He also said something like "I did freshman year for my parents, sophomore year for my friends and junior year for the program itself".
I do think people generally overestimate how much teenagers grasp what is good for them.
August 31 at 6:02pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley In my case, coming to TAC was like coming home: because of my family's atmosphere and because I was always more or less consciously planning to go to TAC, being at TAC seemed like the most normal thing in the world.
August 31 at 6:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond God give us more fools like Daniel Lendman
August 31 at 6:08pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia Oh Daniel....... you've still got to pay the bills... and last I checked, "philosopher-king" positions were taken. there are a lot worse things than putting your children in a position to succeed more easily, especially because teenagers don't know what is good for them.
August 31 at 6:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Mr. Ferrier! You have graced TNET with your esteemed presence! Now I know the end is near
August 31 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Nor do adults often know what's good for them.. But both teenagers and adults learn, hopefully after proper guidance, by making choices and then dealing with consequences. Some children might benefit by being told where to go to college, but many would not.
August 31 at 6:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Beitia--I used to worry about the type of students TAC was admitting. During my time there, it seemed to me that TAC had moved from recruiting people passionate about the program but maybe not so much about the rules to people passionate about the rules and indifferent to the program. In other words, they were there because it was a safe Catholic place, and maybe they would even find a spouse. I remember my senior year a sophomore telling me she didn't read Chaucer because her parents had told her it was "immoral." Richard Delahide Ferrier may remember this. He had some choice (and apt!) words on the subject!
Since then I've met several younger students, and I think my concerns were maybe overblown a bit. My wife and I both have younger siblings who graduated after us (or are still there) and there are still very many "seekers of the truth" there, or so it seems to me. For a place like TAC to work, you need good students *and* good tutors.
August 31 at 6:21pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia Well, I've never set foot back in the hallowed Shire since driving up Hwy 14 and tossing an empty fifth of Jack out the window of Booty's Benz. I hear things, but that's all. All I know is that they somehow manage to find my address and send me letters begging for money no matter where I move. One of you jerks out there is selling me out.
August 31 at 6:27pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it's me.
August 31 at 6:28pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia jerk
August 31 at 6:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I send Kretschmer emails saying you make 350,000 a year
August 31 at 6:28pm · Like · 9
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Michael Beitia yen?
August 31 at 6:29pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I think the best plan in most circumstances is to require at least one year of TAC.
August 31 at 6:39pm · Like
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John Boyer Joel, some people should not read Chaucer. Like 8 year olds. The ye olde english would throw them off.
August 31 at 6:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Calling out Boyer's solecism
August 31 at 6:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley "the the olde english"?
August 31 at 6:46pm · Like
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John Boyer Oh, pardon me for being colloquial. It should be The "Ye Olde English", which would take "Ye Olde English" as a (semi)clever unit of speech.
August 31 at 6:47pm · Like
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John Boyer Whole hearted agreement with Daniel Lendman above.
August 31 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley 'Each lecture in the drones series focuses on one of the three basic attributes of the Abrahamic God: he's omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnipotent (all-powerful).
Apparently, so are drones.
"Drones would be a sort of a microcosm of who God is," Young preaches in the third lecture, before briefly explaining each attribute.'
August 31 at 6:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.vox.com/.../drone-god-megachurch-preacher...
God is a Predator drone: one Texas megachurch preacher's bizarre lecture series
Does comparing God to a drone make sense? Definitely...
VOX.COM
August 31 at 6:50pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley Discuss.
August 31 at 6:50pm · Like
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John Boyer One, Vox is not an authoritative source of anything. Two, this is definitely stretching analogy, because drones are not actually "onmiscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent" not could they ever be those three. Third, the fittingness of the metaphor comes into question, since Drones are not usually tools of anything other than the police or military. The King's power is present in all areas of the realm not only to punish but also to build up.
August 31 at 6:53pm · Like
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John Boyer To return to Daniel Lendman's comment above, I have met too many people who are very smart and well formed in the Catholic intellectual tradition who did not go to TAC to think that anyone MUST go there like it or not.
August 31 at 6:53pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I left out the
August 31 at 6:54pm · Like
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John Boyer I figured you wanted discussion for the sake of more post #s
August 31 at 6:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley I mostly shared it because it provoked a laugh.
August 31 at 6:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, I don't think I would force TAC on my children: especially since my brother didn't seem to fit into TAC very well but took to the Army like a fish to water.
August 31 at 6:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley On the other hand, I do think TAC provides an opportunity that isn't available many other places.
August 31 at 6:58pm · Like
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John Boyer Ultimately, I would praise and recommend TAC very highly for its strengths. More than any one particular piece of book learning, TAC helped me form (it didn't give it to me, it *helped* me) good habits of thought and an desire to know. If all learning begins with a sense of wonder, it seems appropriate that every class begins with a question, one you may not have thought about. I probably would have done just as well overall for grad school by going to a different undergrad institution. However, TAC is what made me interested in philosophy. It made me interested in areas I would not have thought to look into. I do not think a standard school would have provoked me in this manner.
I think the habitus which TAC tries to foster in its students is well worth the time and effort, even if one does not pursue a further degree. This doesn't mean that everyone needs it.
Hell, I didn't really get fully into the entire search for truth at TAC until I got slapped around in a don rags for being arrogant and then fell in and out of love with Descartes. Junior Math with Dr. Richard Delahide Ferrier also opened my eyes as well.
August 31 at 7:04pm · Unlike · 4
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John Boyer And any shortcomings in personality or intellectual biases I gained were not taught to me. Those are on me and my fellow alumni. No tutor told me that I HAD to interpret Thomas in a certain light.
August 31 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird TAC taught me how to articulate arguments and back them up well. That's an ability I can use in all areas of my life and a habit of thinking that was engendered in me by my four years there. I'll forever be grateful to TAC for that.
August 31 at 7:10pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Megan Baird But I do agree that TAC is not for everyone. And no one should feel pressured into going there simply because their entire family did.
August 31 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John Boyer, TAC relies on peer pressure to form the requisite Thomistic dogmas.
August 31 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Like I said, it wasn't tutors. That's on me and the other alumni
August 31 at 7:24pm · Like
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John Boyer The waterboarding of Gilsonians was a bit over the top.
August 31 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But there is an unbroken line of pressure reaching back to when the tutors themselves were students.
August 31 at 7:24pm · Like
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John Boyer Dogmas, Edward? We don't learn any stinking dogmas!
August 31 at 7:25pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird Agreed. It's a bit hard not to have some bit of pressure on you to go to TAC when 100 of your aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings all went to the same college.
August 31 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Well, as a first gen TACer, I didn't have that.
August 31 at 7:27pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Me neither. I was the first in my family to go - then my brother went. And my brother got to be far more well known than I.... Bairdo is still legend in certain circles, apparently.
August 31 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer What I did see was some undue...attachment to certain tutors as sole well springs of the truth. Or at least that's how it stuck this humble alum. And it was surprising that I did come out with certain views which were never explicitly stated, but which I had picked up by osmosis. Not saying those views were wrong, but I tend to read texts in a certain way without having been told that is the TAC way to read them. I think that's something other than peer pressure.
August 31 at 7:29pm · Unlike · 3
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John Boyer He is.
August 31 at 7:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, it's the result of actually knowing what the text says
August 31 at 7:29pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer ^THIS^\
August 31 at 7:30pm · Like
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Megan Baird You know my brother????
August 31 at 7:30pm · Like
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John Boyer Andrew?
August 31 at 7:30pm · Like
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Megan Baird Yes.
August 31 at 7:30pm · Like
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John Boyer He was a year or two ahead of me.
August 31 at 7:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny: when I read Heidegger, I remember what it felt like to be new to Aristotle.
August 31 at 7:31pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird Ok, that makes sense. I just keep running into people that graduated long after he did that know him. It's a little funny.
August 31 at 7:31pm · Like
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John Boyer I remember my first weekend there, he invited me to a cook out at the rocks.
August 31 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird "Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar...Hobbes was fond of his dram..." Oh, I'm sorry - I got sidetracked.
August 31 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer AAAAAAAAAAND Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: "I drink therefore I am"
August 31 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird "Nothing Nietszche couldn't teach ye about the raisin' of the wrist..."
August 31 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Socrates himself was peeeeeeermanently piiiiiiiiiiissed....
August 31 at 7:34pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Aristotle, Aristotle, was a beggar for the bottle.
August 31 at 7:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although reading Thomas makes me partial to Analytic philosophy (not in terms of content, but in terms of method).
August 31 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I too like the analytics in broad strokes, although they get a lot wrong. And analytic Thomists are good, although some of them need to realize that Frege and Aquinas are not the same person on existence. *cough* Davies *cough*
August 31 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Analytic Thomist is an oxymoron there i said it
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Edward Langley Yes and No, the analytics have a keen sense of the necessity of dialectics that the scholastics would appreciate. Their execution of dialectics, however, is often dissatisfying.
August 31 at 7:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I'd rather deal with an analytic philosopher than an über-Gilsonian.
August 31 at 7:46pm · Like
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John Boyer The two schools of thought occasionally clash in my dept.
August 31 at 7:47pm · Like
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John Boyer The main failing of most Analytics are the Humean metaphysical presuppositions.
August 31 at 7:48pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley That and a deep-seated skepticism.
August 31 at 7:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley which is perhaps the same thing.
August 31 at 7:49pm · Like
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John Boyer Same difference
August 31 at 7:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg About the bestiary:
Please join us tonight at www.fiatministrynetwork.tv at 9pm EST LIVE. Joe will talk to Jonathan about his book call "The Blessed Book of Beasts". They will talk about the literary genre of the Catholic bestiary. Please check out the website for the book https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Fiat Ministry Network
Fiat Ministry Encouraging All to Say Yes to Jesus Christ
FIATMINISTRYNETWORK.TV
August 31 at 10:14pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng My biggest problem with analytic philosophy is that it takes it self far too seriously I.e Wittgenstein ... it is a kind of unreality
August 31 at 8:55pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Was trolling all of us just a shameless plug for your book, Perescott?
August 31 at 9:16pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer I really like Wittgenstein on the whole.
August 31 at 9:22pm · Like
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Megan Baird Initially, I didn't want to go TAC. One of my good friends had gone there (class of 1998) and his freshman year he was SO obnoxious. It really turned me off the school. So I was dead set on Christendom. However, I somehow got persuaded into going to one of the very first summer programs. Owen Sweeney, Jen Danner (now DellaCroce - I think), Marco Emerson, Mary Susanka (now Robinson) etc were my prefects.
I fell in love with it the moment I stepped on campus. After that, I totally forgot about Christendom.
I had a difficult four years there - the program was challenging and, honestly, going straight from homeschooling to college was probably NOT the best idea - but I'm profoundly grateful for the education I received. But it isn't for everybody.
August 31 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Wittgenstein? Really?
August 31 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne http://youtu.be/slcYzUIPSD4
The Mostly German Philosophers Love Song
A very silly song by J. Boor: http://www.jboor.net/ LYRICS are here: http://jboor.bandcamp.com/track/the-mostly-ger...
YOUTUBE.COM
August 31 at 9:33pm · Like
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Megan Baird Ugh, I am not fond of German philosophers. Although I did enjoy Kant.
August 31 at 9:34pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne But you'll love the Mostly German Philosophers Love Song....
August 31 at 9:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I feel like Michael prefers vague, sloppy philosophy while John prefers clear, precise philosophy.
August 31 at 9:35pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I wanted to burn my Hegel so many times.
August 31 at 9:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny in class at TAC, there is a definite tension between the students and tutors who like big giant "philosophy of the whole" kinda statements and those who want to work out every niggling detail of two sentences in the Summa. The current analytic vs. continental war is an eternal struggle.
August 31 at 9:37pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I think I'm the "philosophy of the whole" type in general. I was better at big picture analysis than individual sentence analysis. I felt that those who split sentences could miss the forest for the trees.
August 31 at 9:38pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer I am the latter.
August 31 at 9:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I love continental philosophy....
August 31 at 9:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and yes, I'm a GUTofP kind of guy
August 31 at 9:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I wouldn't call it vague or sloppy....
August 31 at 9:44pm · Like
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Megan Baird I'm definitely more continental.
August 31 at 9:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley I might not have been completely unbiased in my presentation of the debate.
August 31 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel-- I don't think anyone here was arguing that prestige should be pursued for its own sake. It's a means to and end, and an increasingly important one. It's like Matthew J. Peterson said, TACers need to know the score, and to that end tutors need to know it, too.
August 31 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Though I guess Daniel is asleep now.
August 31 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think I have been accused of pursuing tawdry ends. :::::more feigned outrage:::::::
August 31 at 9:56pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The real question is: are you into vague, sloppy philosophy or clear and precise phil?
August 31 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng John Boyer what do you like about Wittgenstein? I enjoyed On Certainty and Culture and Value. His major works not so much. The Tractatus was like an LCWR labyrinth and I find the Investigations very tedious
August 31 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng If you think Wittegenstein is actually precise and clear I've got a bridge to sell you
August 31 at 9:59pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia you're all just gnostics
TAC produces arrogant grads that think they don't need the magisterium
#thingsweveneverheardbefore
August 31 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Wittgenstein vs. Heidegger? No contest.
August 31 at 10:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Heidegger
August 31 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley false.
August 31 at 10:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia wrong
August 31 at 10:01pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Edward one conversation I had with Nieto that you would've enjoyed was him pointing out all of the fallacies in the Tractatus
August 31 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, what is objectionable in Heidegger?
August 31 at 10:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley Never says anything
August 31 at 10:03pm · Like
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Adrw Lng It's so TAC to say this, but if you reject Aristotelian logic out of hand, you will make logical mistakes
August 31 at 10:04pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia Says a ton.
Even if "conclusions" are what you're after, his method is extremely important
August 31 at 10:04pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Analytic vs Continental is as wrongheaded as Republican vs Democrat
August 31 at 10:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley In terms of method, it's basically vague vs. precise
August 31 at 10:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but there's a difference between analytic and continental....
August 31 at 10:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley
August 31 at 10:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Plato was the original continental philosopher and Aristotle the original analytic
August 31 at 10:08pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley but it's all down-hill from there
August 31 at 10:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley (with a minor deviation in the mid-13th century)
August 31 at 10:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Have you studied a lot of continental philosophy?
August 31 at 10:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Bonaventure -- continental, Aquinas -- analytic.
August 31 at 10:09pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Don't you even
August 31 at 10:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Me? Just Beans and Twine.
August 31 at 10:10pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Just asking.... outside of the TAC curriculum, I don't know what people are all focused up on
August 31 at 10:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd take a helping of Quine any day.
August 31 at 10:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I just threw up in my mouth a little
August 31 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Analytic philosophers talk to Thomists like they're third party candidates
August 31 at 10:11pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley I've read Being and time and bits of Heid.'s commentary on Plato's Sophist.
August 31 at 10:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley (course on, I should say)
August 31 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Descartes - analytic
British Empiricists - analytic
August 31 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia got some skeletons in the old closet
August 31 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley I've listened to Sokolowski lecture on various phil.ers.
August 31 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (including a class on "Virtue and Human Action")
August 31 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I did a seminar with him on "the essence of truth" back in the TAC senior days
August 31 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley He's an amazing teacher.
August 31 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley Did he basically lecture? Or could he do the TAC thing?
August 31 at 10:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia seemed to be, this was about a 90 minute seminar - ages ago
August 31 at 10:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It was the TAC thing like Neumeyr ..... but not quite Berquist.
August 31 at 10:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley The only problem is that he expects you to actually be able to write.
August 31 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So I plan to audit his courses after I finish this MA.
August 31 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Being and Time I found to be less worthy of study... I think it is because the youth always seem to be systematizers. . . his studies of other things are more worthwhile
August 31 at 10:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia IHMO
August 31 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I'm clearly far from expert
August 31 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley The good thing about my class on Being and Time was that the Heideggering exposition in my paper was virtually indistinguishable from the padding.
August 31 at 10:19pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I would say the fruits of continental philosophy are more sickly than analytic
August 31 at 10:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia again, I think the method is important.
August 31 at 10:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Adrw, Thomists haven't been first-class philosophers since Bacon
August 31 at 10:22pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Agreed
August 31 at 10:22pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
Is there any truth to this?:
"the devotion to Machiavelli was very strong by the early 90s, there. You couldn't meet a TAC grad who wasn't babbling about how WONDERFUL The Prince was and how you just didn't UNDERSTAND it if you thought it was amoral or immoral"
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/171907/4494627#c14
Here's a question-- (4.00) Anyone know if there was any personal connection...
DAILYKOS.COM
August 31 at 10:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley I've always had a soft spot for the Prince. But mostly because Machiavelli is a ridiculously good writer.
August 31 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've probably read the Prince more frequently then any other non-Aristothomist book.
August 31 at 11:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I don't think there's any truth to a Straussian connection among the founders.
August 31 at 11:05pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Langley, there have been first class Thomists since bacon....not many, maybe not even the more known, but there are some greats out there if you look.
August 31 at 11:08pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley By "first-class" I was referring to stature in academia, not stature per-se
August 31 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley After all John of St. Thomas was Bacon's contemporary.
August 31 at 11:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger or if there were they wouldnt tell you. CryptoStraussians
August 31 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I dunno, Dr. MacArthur wasn't one to hold anything back.
August 31 at 11:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond There was no personal connection between Leo Strauss and Ron McArthur, though Dr. McArthur knew Harry Jaffa, the top Straussian at Claremont. Dr. McArthur completely rejected the Straussians. I know this for a fact because Dr. McArthur made that perfectly clear when I interviewed to teach at TAC. Having come from the University of Chicago where I studied under a number of the Straussians (Bloom, Kass, Cropsey and Tarcov), I was asked by Dr. McArthur if I was one. "That stuff will kill you," he told me quite bluntly. But I did not need convincing because I had directly experienced their destructive teachings.
August 31 at 11:13pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger i was kidding. I see nothing to indicate such. Sorry.
August 31 at 11:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No need to apologize. I got the joke. I wasn't addressing your comment, but just the question of any connection.
August 31 at 11:15pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger and I studied for a year with a Straussian at UD. He is partly why I left.
August 31 at 11:18pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Bolotin's essay on Thucydides (from Strauss and Cropsey's History of Political Philosophy) really helped me in my Freshman year. Yes, I know: we should not have been reading outside sources. But it was really well-written and substantial. It helped me along to thinking about the intention of the author on a deeper level.
August 31 at 11:21pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Strauss is fascinating, but his followers were mostly nihilists. Whether they were true to the master's teaching is hard to say. His book on Machiavelli is well worth reading. Very clever how he shows how Machiavelli used Livy to secretly attack his real enemy, the Church. Then one realizes that Strauss himself is using the same tactic. His "attack" on Machiavelli is really his way of secretly attacking Christianity. The Straussians, at least every one I knew, hated Christianity.
August 31 at 11:22pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, I agree with Daniel that one can learn a great deal from some of their writings. But their overall mission is, as Dr. McArthur insisted, destructive. I never read Bolotin's essay on Thucydides, but Strauss' essay on Thucydides in The City and Man is helpful.
August 31 at 11:27pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i second that. on their antiChristianity. It was masked at UD and most my fellow grads didnt see it.
August 31 at 11:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
Mr. Langley,
I was already quite certain about Dr. McArthur, I even spoke to him once on the subject. The apparent Strauss infestation came later.
I was wondering about The Prince and whether there where TACers lauding it.
August 31 at 11:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But some of the Straussians are brilliant.
August 31 at 11:32pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The first Straussians I encountered at Kenyon College did a good job getting students to question their moral relativism. The irony of it all, however, is that those students who were truly convinced that relativism was false then became a problem for the Straussians. These Straussians felt it was their job to convince most students to be good citizens of the regime (by supporting the ancients against the moderns), but then to convince the few select philosophers that the moderns were really right. They promoted an exoteric teaching for the many--be a good citizen--and an esoteric teaching for the few--there is no natural basis for morality. Very twisted.
August 31 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I am not fascinated with Strauss' writings and ideas (although some of the essays are useful, e.g., the essay on the Euthyphro); but, biographically, after my years in Germany, what interests me is the activities of Strauss within the larger German and German-Jewish community (Löwith, Arendt, Heidegger, et al.).
August 31 at 11:35pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley There may be tutors who like things about Strauss on the faculty, but I've never run into a full-blown Straussian in class (or else, I missed it). I never experienced anything like widespread admiration for the Prince: in fact, the closest thing to that is when one of my classmates asked me to stop comparing every work of political philosophy to it.
August 31 at 11:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Strauss obviously had a problem with the Nazis regime, and his investigation into the ancients seemed to have been fueled by his quest for an answer to the problem of modernity. Sadly, what he seemed to find in Plato was a confirmation of the Nazis position. The Nazis position was right--it's all about the will to power--but we need a "noble lie" to keep the many from knowing this. I think Strauss simply could not bring himself to accept that Plato actually thought there was an objective order to the cosmos. The Forms for Strauss are just an elegant lie that has a salutary effect on political life.
August 31 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The Straussians even turn St. Thomas into a exoteric/esoteric teacher. When St. Thomas quotes St. Paul at the beginning of the Summa about providing milk, not solid food, the Straussians seize on that as evidence of a secret teaching. St. Thomas, it turns out, is also a nihilist!
August 31 at 11:49pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley I've heard stories about wacky Shakespeare readings.
August 31 at 11:50pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Butcher jobs on Shakespeare. He too was a nihilist.
August 31 at 11:50pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Jeffrey, why do you think so many nihilists (both in America and Germany) gravitate towards the right wing rather than the left? It fascinates me that so many of these early German nihilists, including Strauss and Schmitt, are politically speaking part of a larger conservative revolutionary milieu that arises in Weimar (not National Socialist but part of that broader intellectual genus). The later nihilists (disciples of Strauss) also seem to gravitate to conservative politics.
August 31 at 11:52pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond As it turns out, for the Straussians--at least the ones I knew--there is really no great thinker who thinks there is an objective moral order.
August 31 at 11:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Ah, the ol' "St. Thomas was an atheist because the five ways are so weak" routine.
August 31 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Is Benardete a Straussian?
August 31 at 11:54pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Re. O'Connell's question, possibly because hardline nihilism is less conducive to an Epicurean worldview?
August 31 at 11:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg More fantastical promotion of the first Catholic bestiary written in centuries. How does God use animals to lead us to devotion?
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
August 31 at 11:56pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Good question, Daniel. I don't really know. When I would challenge them on that very point--in other words, why be one thing rather than the other if there is no support for morality in nature--they would get huffy and say something about how most men need a myth to believe by. Why they cared about the many poor fools, they could not say. One of the favorite words of the Straussians is "salutary." They defend the ancients against the moderns (at least politically) because it is more "salutary" to believe in something. But since "salutary" has no meaning if there is nothing to be salutary about, their position makes no sense.
September 1 at 12:05am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley But the cynic in me says that they're equally distributed on each side so they can act out their Nietzschean power plays against each other.
August 31 at 11:57pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond In my experience, they were all conservatives (though they thought there was nothing really to conserve). But yes, Nietzsche is their man--though you cannot say that publicly.
August 31 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Nihilists, not Straussians.
August 31 at 11:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Very curious how Strauss defends the ancients against the moderns in Natural Right and History, but he refuses to endorse the most fundamental political teaching of the ancients, namely, that political order rests upon a teleological natural order. Strauss wanted the ancient position without its foundation. I forget the name of the author who exposed this in the Review of Metaphysics many, many years ago.
September 1 at 12:02am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I see what you mean now, Edward. Yes, the nihilists can pick whatever side pleases them.
September 1 at 12:01am · Like
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Edward Langley And, ultimately Stoicism and Epicureanism seem to produce nihilists.
September 1 at 12:03am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes.
September 1 at 12:04am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Speak no ill of Epictetus, though! The Discourses of Arrian is one of my favorite works of late classical philosophy.
September 1 at 12:05am · Unlike · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I guess a Christian can read it sympathetically, but it seems pretty empty to me.
September 1 at 12:06am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I find Stoic "meditations" or "spiritual exercises" (as P. Hadot would have called them) are really effective at helping one to master the emotions. At least it helped me.
September 1 at 12:07am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't deny that, I love Stoic philosophy.
September 1 at 12:07am · Like
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Edward Langley But it generally led Stoics to suicide
September 1 at 12:08am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Well, you can't take it too far ...
September 1 at 12:08am · Like
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Megan Baird "One never steps in the same river twice."
September 1 at 12:08am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I really only know the Stoics through Cicero, and it never did much for me. By the way, Strauss read his Plato through Cicero, and I think that helps explain his strange twist on Plato. Cicero also wanted to wrap himself in the mantle of Plato's authority, but Cicero was finally a skeptic.
September 1 at 12:08am · Like
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Megan Baird Edward: I'm with you - I really enjoyed the Stoics.
September 1 at 12:09am · Unlike · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The New Academy championed by Cicero held as its fundamental position that one could never attain certainty. St. Augustine takes this position apart piece by piece.
September 1 at 12:10am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Augustine is good at taking Cicero and the Academics apart. It strikes me that Cicero's life (as we can judge it by his actions) was to defend the republic from the old families of Rome (on the one side) and the plebs (on the other). Why is another question.
September 1 at 12:12am · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond De Officiis is a Stoic tract, so TACers don't really see the real Cicero.
September 1 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell We do get a taste of him, though. I think it's in City of God that Augustine takes up his argument about divine foreknowledge and its inconsistency with free will (which A. demolishes).
September 1 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Cicero's de natura deorum presents the Stoic position which Cicero then undermines through the New Academy skepticism. More rhetoric than philosophy.
September 1 at 12:14am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think you are right, Daniel, about Cicero's political position. The why is an interesting question. I think he thought his rhetoric could forge an alliance among all men of good will. He could never be a full aristocrat--he was a "new man"--but he could not identify with the many either. He saw his oratorical skills as that which could guide the republic. His own rather terrestrial version of Plato's philosopher-king.
September 1 at 12:18am · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I like how Epictetus used a lot of animal metaphors to describe the reason of man. The Stoic's familiar with Aesop.
Consider, then, from what you are distinguished by reason. You are distinguished from wild beasts; you are distinguished from cattle. Besides, you are a citizen of the universe, and a part of it; not a subordinate, but a principal part. (Discourses, 2)
Further, there is a general and a particular end. The first is, to act as a man. What is comprehended in this? To be gentle, yet not sheepish; not to be mischievous, like a wild beast. (Discourses, 3)
September 1 at 12:18am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond To address Edward's question way back when: I think Seth Benardette is a Straussian, but I don't know if he would accept that august appellation. I only heard him lecture once. Three fourths of the lecture on Plato was in Greek. When no one had a question after the lecture was over (because no one understood what he was saying), I asked him if he thought one had to know Greek to understand Plato. He got angry and refused to answer.
September 1 at 12:23am · Unlike · 5
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Scott Weinberg I also like the epicheireme of Cicero. It's a much more interesting rhetorical argument that the Aristotlean enthymeme, though it seems to rely on the topics of invention, it is a strongly deductive persuasive argument that embraces a full range of political issues, even today.
September 1 at 12:26am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Allan Bloom was present at the Benardette lecture on Plato. Bloom laughed scornfully at my question. I thought it was a reasonable thing to ask. St. Thomas, after all, mastered Aristotle with no knowledge of Greek.
September 1 at 12:38am · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Interesting observation, Scott. I found Cicero to be much more interested in how one can move and manipulate an audience's emotions. Philosophy (logic) seems to be little more than an ornament for Cicero's rhetoric.
September 1 at 12:30am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger A point on suicide and the "control" of the emotions. It seems a suppression rooted as spiritual writers point out in pride. Thus in the end Portia swallows burning coals. Is that what they do?
September 1 at 12:30am · Like · 1
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David Upham We made it to 10,000. Oh, and just so we're all clear. TAC provides the greatest Catholic, liberal-arts education of any undergraduate institution west of Irving, Texas.
September 1 at 12:30am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond You must be a Dallas man. Brilliant deduction, eh?
September 1 at 12:33am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I agree, Jeffrey. I think Augustine really pulled all of those emotional arguments under his hat. He never said you need to argue in a particular language either. Usually, only people who are losing an argument make those claims.
September 1 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Upham, your a closet Straussian. Admit it.
September 1 at 12:33am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Isn't every Straussian a closet Straussian?
September 1 at 12:34am · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg I think Augustine understood how important emotions are in truth seeking for most people. If you want to appeal to emotions, bring in a few more premises. But who has time for that?
September 1 at 12:36am · Like
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John Ruplinger I know David. He is not.
September 1 at 12:36am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The further east you go, the more emotional the Catholic liberal arts colleges become.
September 1 at 12:38am · Like
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Scott Weinberg This is because of the way the sun travels across the country. The Virginia sunsets warm the heart and invites you to bring more and more observations into the structure of the syllogism.
September 1 at 12:48am · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The question of Benardete's links to Strauss is perhaps more fit for a dissertation topic than a short paper, but the New School's Digital Archive has just put much of Benardete's papers online with only a few minor exceptions (e.g., correspondence with those still living and, interestingly enough, Strauss' letters to B.). The link is here: http://library.newschool.edu/.../finding.../pdf/NA000501.pdf
The handwriting presents some difficulties, but one can find several interesting pages, including a 4-page letter to Strauss (regarding the Sophist) and some notes on the New Testament.
September 1 at 12:44am · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Anything interesting on the New Testament?
September 1 at 12:46am · Like
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Scott Weinberg In Virginia, a 5-premised epicheireme to restore all things to Christ. In Texas, a simple enthymeme to set students free. At TAC, the syllogism to be sure.
September 1 at 12:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I haven't read the New Testament pages yet. Still struggling through the letter to Strauss, which poses two obstacles: his poor handwriting and my poor Greek.
September 1 at 12:50am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I was never impressed by Benardete's writings. He always seemed lost in the minutiae. I thought his essay on Oedipus Rex was particularly weak.
September 1 at 12:53am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I have to get some sleep. It has been a pleasure conversing with you folks.
September 1 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Likewise. Here is the link for the NT scribblings:
http://library.newschool.edu/.../SB_01-35_New_Testament.pdf
September 1 at 12:58am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's more difficult to read his handwriting than the 15th-c. manuscripts I've worked with.
September 1 at 12:59am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Goodnight all.
September 1 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Adrw Lng, re q on Wittgenstein. I like how he identifies important problems and issues. Especially in Blue and Brown books and Investigations. I like the dialectic. Beetle in box is excellent argument against idealism/extreme skepticism. His general style makes me think. I take him to be useful for certain points rather than an overall world view or system.
September 1 at 1:26am · Unlike · 4
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John Boyer Great argument against representationalism in Blue book could be reworked to be argument for immateriality of soul. Wittgenstein argues concepts only make sense linguistically but basic point that we do not recognize things by comparing to image shows there must be something immaterial at work.
September 1 at 1:37am · Unlike · 3
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Adrw Lng Never spent any time with the blue or brown books, but good things about them
September 1 at 1:43am · Like
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Pater Edmund Jeffrey Bond: how did you find Kass? I really like his books, but you group him with the Chicago Straussians and their 'destructive teachings' above.
September 1 at 4:13am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So, in note 62 of the Common Good Book CDK writes the following: "It has become most urgent to spread the writings of St. Augustine against the Pelagian exaltation of man and of liberty, as well as his writings on marriage." http://ldataworks.com/aqr/V4_BC_notes.html#BC_n62
It seems clear that sophomore theology at TAC is inspired by the Pelagian part of this remark.
September 1 at 4:34am · Unlike · 4
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Sam Rocha HOW DID I MISS THE WITT MEETING?!?!
September 1 at 4:34am · Like
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Pater Edmund «"If only one of [Wittgenstein and Heidegger] had existed, who would you have preferred and why?"
"Don’t Sophie’s Choice me! What a cruel interview… I guess if I had to choose, I’d take Heidegger. As much as I love Wittgenstein, his project is to get me to stop doing philosophy, to perform a philosophical intervention on someone in denial, and damn it — I like doing philosophy! Heidegger still believes in the ability to use philosophy to learn, and he is still teaching me new things, even after reading him for nearly 20 years. I think that answers the question about their obsolescence as well.Foretelling future histories of philosophy is not a profitable endeavor, but I certainly can’t imagine them fading from view, or even becoming minor characters. If the view of philosophy as a conversation is right, then there are vast swaths of 20th Century philosophy that simply cannot be understood without them: phenomenology, existentialism, post-modernism, logical positivism, ordinary language philosophy, to name a few."» http://www.3ammagazine.com/.../on-heidegger-wittgenstein.../
September 1 at 5:55am · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Pater Edmund, I left the conversation last night before your question about Kass. Here's my experience with the man. I took a seminar he offered on Plato's Symposium. Kass, like Eryximachus in the actual dialogue, is a medical doctor. I was amazed how Plato somehow anticipated the typical "medical" position on love. Kass actually ran the seminar the way Eryximachus tried to run the drinking party! Just as Eryximachus tried (but failed) to orchestrate the discussion at the party in such a way as to control and limit the erotic/philosophic strivings of the participants, so Kass in his own strange way tried to suppress any real eros for the Good among those in the classroom. (As an aside to the question you are asking, it is worth noting that the entire experience was an extraordinary testimony of the fact that Plato's dialogues, as perfected works of art, really do imitate real philosophical discussion. Students often stress what they perceive to be the "artificiality" of Plato's dialogues, yet my experience--and especially with Kass that semester--was quite the opposite. Without going into details, the parallels between the conversation in the dialogue and that in the classroom were astonishing, with Kass having unwittingly cast himself in the rather comical role of Eryximachus trying desperately to keep eros under control.) Kass, in typical Straussian form, wanted nothing to do with the metaphysical questions raised by the dialogue, and he tried to suppress any efforts to discuss those matters. His focus was on the political need to control eros for the sake of the political community. And, of course, Kass had his way because the room was filled with his disciples, whom some of us called "Kassettes" because if you pushed their "buttons" they would simply repeat whatever Kass had said. Plug and play. Well, Kass asked me to come see him in his office at one point, and there he tried to recruit me into the inner fold. He very solemnly (in Eryximachus like fashion) informed me that his goal was to make good citizens out of most of his students because they could not handle the "dark truth" that "there is nothing out there." His mission, as he explained it, was to paint a beautiful myth, as Plato did, that could be placed between the students and the darkness. Kass invited me to join him as one of the myth makers because he and I, he said, could handle the truth. We must, he insisted, present a salutary teaching for the many, even though that teaching was not true. When I asked him how one knew what to be salutary about if there were nothing true, he responded by saying he would not take the question as a challenge, but only as me wanting to know how to respond to my own students someday when they asked me the same question. Truly amazing. It was like a seduction scene from a medieval morality play, an invitation to have a special seat next to the beloved master. It was a very tempting offer for a young man trying to find his way in the big, bad world of academia, but, thanks be to God, there was a Socratic figure in the classroom who saved me from the dark side. Sounds dramatic, eh? I was not a Catholic at the time, but moving in that direction, and my conviction that Kass was wrong, and the Church was probably right, saved me. As for Kass' writings, they can indeed provide some help in some areas, but if you look carefully at what he actually says you will see that he really does not endorse the position he seems to be defending. Kass, for example, is not really a teleologist. That is just part of the salutary myth he paints for the many. Whenever Kass encountered someone who really was convinced that nature is teleological, he didn't know what to do with that person, and he did everything he could to undermine that person's influence in the classroom. Kass did his very best to minimize the influence of the Socratic figure in our Symposium seminar, but he ultimately failed.
September 1 at 9:54am · Like · 6
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Adrw Lng "it is a great temptation to try to make the spirit explicit" Wittgenstein, 1931, Culture and Value. Anticipating TNET
September 1 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Wittgenstein, 1937, C&V, on Catholic dogma: "The effect of making men think in accordance with dogmas perhaps in the form of certain graphic propositions will be very peculiar: i'm not thinking of these dogmas determining men's opinions but rather as completely controlling the expression of all opinions. People will live under an absolute palpable tyranny, although without being able to say they are not free. I think the Catholic Church does something rather like this. For dogma is expressed in the form of an assertion and is unshakable but at the same time any practical opinion can be made to harmonize with it, admittedly more easily in some cases than in others."
September 1 at 10:04am · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson himself is strangely silent on all this Straussianism. Off enjoying his water jet pack, no doubt, the esoteric implications of which--don't get me started.
September 1 at 10:08am · Unlike · 7
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Joel HF Seriously though, thank you Jeffrey Bond for these insights.
September 1 at 10:10am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond My pleasure, Joel.
September 1 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i have an eye on him, Joel. ((supersubtle Jaffaite. shhhh))
September 1 at 10:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Wittgenstein was right about an "absolute palpable tyranny," but he did not rightly predict who would be tyrannizing over whom. The tyranny of relativism reigns supreme.
September 1 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger then too what is liberty? cf. Leo's Libertas (with hat tip to Jeffrey)
September 1 at 10:22am · Like
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Pater Edmund Jeffrey Bond how sad about Kass! I really loved The Hungry Soul.
September 1 at 10:28am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond That is indeed the question, John. Leo, I think, gives us the answer. And without his Libertas we would be in great danger of believing that the religious freedom so much lauded these days is actually real freedom.
September 1 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I'm saddened by that as well.
September 1 at 10:31am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Sad for Kass, yes. But ultimately quite comic.
September 1 at 10:34am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger (I am still pondering Virgil -- nefas indeed -- and have to defend my position that it be properly overthrown. It gives some insight I think into whence the Straussians come. They see only the darkness. Those passages are rich and ambiguous, or at least very difficult.]
September 1 at 10:42am · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Given an earlier discussion some of us had about TAC graduates having difficulty achieving success in the world, I think the tremendous worldly success of Kass (appointed by President Bush, etc.) is worth contemplating. Few come back from the kingdom of success alive.
September 1 at 10:43am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Straussianism is a curious form of gnosticism. The select few have a special knowledge that "saves" them, but their salvation is, as John suggests, all darkness.
September 1 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger (Their political deeds are nefarious as well. It is not an idle gnosis.)
September 1 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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Franklin Salazar --
Jeffrey Bond writes : "Few come back from the kingdom of success alive."
Perfecting one's art while in turn being a worldly failure is an art unto itself, and an art few wives appreciate.
September 1 at 11:07am · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson The fact remains that anyone who wants to read important books and talk about them contra the barbarians today will find themselves in the same room with "Strausssians".
Jeff's comments here remind me of my own critiques of TAC.
September 1 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And whatever your particular experience with Kass (and how long ago was that) it's a but much to simply bash him, of course. A bit of circular firing squad-ism on TNET. His books are often fantastic, and stand apart from someone like Bloom, who was more clearly far worse.
IF you are telling the truth of your encounter with him, one must consider why he would, over time, work so hard for the sake of myths. My guess is that, over time, he's somewhat conflicted, no? It makes little sense otherwise.
None of those Straussians who move in that direction usually sustain it. They become run of the mill modern scholars.
September 1 at 11:31am · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Who's bashing? Did I miss that?
September 1 at 11:29am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, the claim is the Leon Kass is a fraud based on a self-reported conversation that happened at some point in the past.
September 1 at 11:32am · Like
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Adrw Lng Also I had 0% encounters with Straussians studying ethics as a grad student, I find "same room" comment hyperbolic. Discourse is so compartmentalized these days.
September 1 at 11:32am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Name another group on the greater scene that wants to read "great books" - what would be hyperbolic would be universalizing your own anecdotal experience.
September 1 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Discovering and sharing the alarming underbellies of prominent scholars is hardly bashing. Deception and fraudulence should be talked about openly
September 1 at 11:35am · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, put it this way: we have Kass's books and career on one hand, and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the other. And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass for.
But it's more fun to vehemently disagree withe about everything, I suppose. Hah.
September 1 at 11:37am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I also think it very hard to write off Cicero as a mere skeptic. He seeks out Aristotle, and holds to him between Stoics and Epicureans. He is a skeptic of a sort, but he's much more interesting and complicated than he is generally made out to be, and he moves far closer towards the natural law than Aristotle does.
He's always moving towards Aristotle in a curious way, and moderating stoicism while fending off Epicureanism.
September 1 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The claim seemed to be that his entire life's work was for the purpose of deception. That's pretty extreme, and also somewhat hard to believe.
September 1 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson It could be true, but I bet this happened early in Kass's career if so, at least 20-30 years ago.
September 1 at 11:45am · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng Plenty of prominence scholars are deceptive, at least that was my experience when I "got to know them." I had a similar experience with Jean Porter for example
September 1 at 11:45am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, true. Human beings are deceptive.
September 1 at 11:45am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But bashing Jeffery who first hand saw the destructive influence of the Straussians is ok i suppose? I much more limitedly saw the same.
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Adrw Lng I probably grew agree with you about Ciscero though Matthew
September 1 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng ^ Gd spellcheck
September 1 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not bashing him. I'm just cautioning denigrating a lifetime of serious intellectual and political work of a man based on one story about him, especially when he's one of the few somewhat on your side.
September 1 at 11:47am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng He has published amazing works.
September 1 at 11:48am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Besides I love tons of philosophers who were in crazy error about some stuff
September 1 at 11:49am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng The whole finding truth wherever we can thing
September 1 at 11:50am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger One can respect without being naive. I have a friend who respects them much but at the same time refutes their errors or attempts to (as now he is engaged).
September 1 at 11:52am · Like
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Joel HF How is what Jeff said similar to your critique of TAC, Matthew J. Peterson? (Also, his critique wouldn't mean that no one could profitably read or engage with Kass.)
September 1 at 11:59am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger and to Andrew while true we take whatever is good we must refute or point out the errors too but more on that later when i will bring up a point on liberty that should bring home the point well (a piece by Pink pater directed me to read).
September 1 at 12:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think Jeff has a keenly honed sense of the worst of Strauss and Straussians as I do of TAC. Heh.
September 1 at 12:09pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond For what its worth, my conversation with Kass took place in the Spring of 1979 at the University of Chicago in his office. I shared the conversation at the time with a number of other students in the class, especially the Socrates figure in Kass' seminar who provided me with the intellectual means to escape the seduction. I have to laugh to myself as I offer this "evidence" in response to Matthew's doubts about my veracity. I see I have been put in the position of a "rape" victim who has to bring forth witnesses to the effect that she told friends soon after the rape that she had been violated. (My apologies for the potentially offensive analogy, but a kind of intellectual and even spiritual violation was being proposed by Kass.) For whatever it is worth--and it may mean something to many in this particular forum--God is my witness that I am telling the truth about my encounter with Kass. Having said that, I must add that the purpose of relating this story was certainly not to bash Kass nor put together a firing squad. As Adrw Lng as quite rightly noted, deception and fraudulence should be exposed. Those who admire Kass should be warned of hidden dangers. As for Kass' writings, I have admitted that they can be helpful, so there is no disagreement there. But I think, Matthew, that you are mistaken about Bloom. I knew him quite well and he was very open to serious philosophical discussion (despite his mocking me for my question to Benardete); nor did Bloom try to recruit me into myth making. I strongly suspect that Bloom finally did not think the world was one of objective order and meaning, but he was less interested in imposing that view on his students. Certainly the man had problems, but people knew where he was coming from on those issues.
Now, why would Kass work so hard to cultivate these myths? That, I think, is an excellent question, and one, you may note, I even asked Kass himself (as I reported in my self-reported conversation!). If you recall, I asked him why bother being salutary if there is nothing to be salutary about? Kass' answer to me was quite unsatisfactory, but that was his answer at the time. Would he answer differently now? Let's hope so. And let's keep him in our prayers. Certainly it is possible he has changed his position since the Spring of 1979. I hasten to add, however, that one of my student who went to Harvard and studied with Harvey Mansfield, Jr., had the occasion to talk with Kass at one of his lectures there. I had warned this young lady about the Straussians, and about Kass in particular, and she discovered through her conversation a Kass who very much fit my description of him. When she spoke with him after the lecture, she made clear that she was convinced (for more than just salutary reasons) that nature truly was teleological, and he then become very uncomfortable, especially after she offered my name in response to his query as to where she had learned about telelogy. Yes, this is all "self-reported," but I would be glad to put you in touch with this young lady if you truly doubt that I am being truthful. So, is Kass conflicted? Let's hope so. Does his position make little sense otherwise? I could not agree with you more. Kass' position makes little sense, yet it has not prevented him for achieving great success. That, of course, is my point.
Finally, I must acknowledge my debt to the Straussians because without them I do not think I would be Catholic today. My Straussian professors at Kenyon put me on a path, however inadvertently, that brought me to the Church's door. And so I agree with Matthew that they are among the few who read great books, and that their writings can certainly help those who are searching. But buyer beware.
September 1 at 12:22pm · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman Does 'Straussian' mean anything other than 'post-modern'?
September 1 at 12:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have no idea what it means to people, but if you are going to call people postmodern who defend much of what you defend and have fought those you oppose politically in serious ways that's on you.
September 1 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't think the term 'postmodern' is an insult.
September 1 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think Jeff is telling the truth - but that was in 1979, and a lot has transpired since re Kass, and what he has done intellectually and politically speaks for itself.
It would make sense that a younger, idealistic (hah) Straussian type would speak thus.
But in the decades since, Bloom's Closing of the American Mind was to my mind far more Nietzschean wrapped in anti-postmodern clothes than anything Kass has written.
September 1 at 12:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, define postmodern.
September 1 at 12:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But sure: let the buyer always beware.
September 1 at 12:50pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I suppose that what characterizes postmodernity is a looking back to the past for culture and philosophy having recognized (more or less explicitly) that modernity has ruptured our connection to the past and as left us bereft of culture and philosophy.
September 1 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But I love what Jeff says about Bloom at his best here. Seems very true. I would have loved to study with him.
September 1 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg New KidSafe TNET Tatoo
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September 1 at 12:57pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman To elaborate further: Edward Langley noted above that it is my position that, with regards to Theology in general, we are in a 'neo-patristic' period. Not, of course, with regards to authority, but rather with regards to how we stand towards doctrine. I think modernity and its consequent intellectual customs have alienated us from Catholic doctrine.
I think there is something similar going on in Philosophy; perhaps a neo-pre-Socratic period, where we are trying to find philosophy again, after had been effectively destroyed in the world. This is why I think guys like Heidegger are great, even as I disagree with them.
Anyway, I was just trying to understand what you meant by Straussian, Matthew J. Peterson.
September 1 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew, I appreciate your vote of confidence concerning my telling the truth about my encounter with Kass. It is interesting, is it not, that our earlier argument about TAC grads and worldly success has coalesced around the career of Kass. You wrote: "Well, put it this way: we have Kass's books and career on one hand, and we have an anecdote from someone on Facebook on the other. And even if the anecdote is true you still have a lot of thank Kass for." That juxtaposition, I think, is helpful to the debate about worldly success. On one side of the see-saw you place the books and career of Kass. My sorry ass goes on the other side. Clearly on the see-saw of success I am going to be sitting up in the air for a long time. But I would not trade sides with him for the world, and I encourage discouraged TACers to look carefully at the price of success.
September 1 at 1:03pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff's comments are more than welcome here.
They lead to a larger question: to give Leo and friends their best case, teleology makes them nervous because it seems to them, even when one rejects scientism, to be an open question.
Which it is. We need to further this debate. We need to push the argument of the Physics, such as it still stands, and see what happens.
September 1 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff: I'm not talking about Kass's success, but the substance of his actual books and political action.
September 1 at 1:05pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The best of the Straussians think they avoid this problem by espousing natural right instead of natural law (which is obviously dependent on teleology), but their natural right is either toothless or it too must take nature as standard for an intrinsic reason. Either way, the teleological argument is key, try as one might to get out of it.
But we do ourselves no favors if we just assume among ourselves and judge others by means of the hermeneutic of inquisition.
September 1 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff-- what would you say about Kass' work on Bush's Committee for Bioethics, or whatever it was called? I am having a hard time reconciling what you are saying with what I read there.
September 1 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Horton I wouldn't have gone to TAC without the experience of reading "Closing of the American Mind" but I came to see that Bloom was a carnival huckster - and thought his success was hilarious...considering who he really was.
September 1 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, that is a good question.
September 1 at 1:13pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Daniel I don't think calling Strauss postmodern as some sort of specifying term is accurate, the way for example you might describe Lacan as distinctively postmodern
September 1 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, I know you are focusing on another argument, but do you object to my understanding of postmodernity? Is it a fair to thing to consider Straussians, thus.
For the record, in a certain respect, I think we are all postmoderns.
September 1 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I agree that the apparent substance of someone like Kass can be helpful to bring others to something truly substantial. But it may not. It is much like the role the sophists play in the Platonic dialogues. Should one go to listen to them or not? Kass, Bernadete and Bloom are like Gorgias, Protagoras, Hippias, etc. And their success seems predicated on making whatever is substantial acceptable to those with money to pay for their services. They sell their wares, but they themselves do not really know what is intellectually nutritious and what is not. If you go to their lectures without a Socrates to accompany you, then you are likely to ingest harmful substances. Plato has given us access to these sophists through his writings, but the presence of Socrates in the dialogues saves us from the sophist siren song.
September 1 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng, what about "Straussians?"
September 1 at 1:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well - Michael Horton - see Jeff's comments above - Bloom was no carnival huckster, even if he was appropriated in ironic ways by the political right given his underlying views. And Closing was fantastic in many ways.
September 1 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, equating "success" with Leo Kass's success seems a bit beside the point, to me. I would just like TACers find satisfying work, and support their families, and get tenure-track jobs when they so aim.
September 1 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I think Daniel just nailed it.
September 1 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne For those who think it is hard to believe someone's entire life's work could be based on deception, I have one word: Maciel.
September 1 at 1:19pm · Like · 8
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Daniel Lendman ^ouch.
September 1 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Horton Glad to hear you think so - it lit me up and I still read it with pleasure. Jeff & I discussed Bloom at the time - it was painful to hear that such a dazzling thinker was an atheist Nietzschean!
September 1 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe OK, but I think we're resisting the idea that Kass is the sort of depraved psychopath that Maciel was
September 1 at 1:20pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^That is fair, Samantha.
September 1 at 1:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But just as they have an esoteric philosophy, may they not (which is an easier deception) have an esoteric policy? I have not followed Kass but have others.
September 1 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Obviously when I keep referring to Kass's life and work/political action, I refer on part to his role on the Bioethics council, etc.
September 1 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Though, I do think it's perilous for Catholics to miss out on the Christian philosophical revival of Benedict and JPII. Kass was so politically accurate on scientific issues of human life, but lacked passion and poetry, in relation to the barbarity of those issues. Human stem cell research and Gosnell are equally wrong for a bunch of the same philosophical reasons, but those reasons seem to fall short of emphasizing the beauty of life or describing the moral outrage in a good way. It's more than an academic trend that has got the world to here, so it will take more to coax it from the cave. Benedict and JPII seem to be the only ones able to descibe those big moral issues in a way that warms the heart.
September 1 at 1:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha Cohoe, sorry to take so long to respond. Comments are coming out fast and furiously! It has been a long time since I read what Kass wrote concerning stem-cell research, etc., but I remember at the time saying to myself that it was in keeping with the Kass I knew at the U of C. In other words, he was opposed to unlimited scientific study, but his reasoning was weak and only suggestive of the right reasons. I cannot give you particular examples--I would have to look at it again. But I am quite sure it was weak even if it was on the right side of the question. Now, would someone who knew the right reasons be able to do any better politically? Perhaps not.
September 1 at 1:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Plus, Kass speaheaded Bush's entirely unethical stem-cell compromise to allow research on existing human embryonic stem cell lines. I remember that well. We opposed it with everything we had. It was the beginning of the end for Bush, not because of any particular opposition, but poetic justice.
September 1 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson James Patterson - thoughts? No offense taken if you decide to remain prudently silent and do work that will help you obtain tenure instead. Heh.
September 1 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, there is unethical and then there is prudent and necessary compromise and there is the best you can get. And we always dispute which is which.
September 1 at 1:38pm · Unlike · 1
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Lucas J. Mather Very impressive. Thank God for Thomas Aquinas College and for their professors and these kids.
September 1 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Well, they weren't really called "pre-existing embryonic stem cell lines" were they, they were actually called human persons, and they were never created to die as microscopic lab rats.
Plus, all of the life-saving discoveries are coming from ethical cord blood research, not from these embryonic martyrs.
September 1 at 1:54pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey, it has been a while for me, too.
September 1 at 1:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Please just remember that Kass "morally authorized" President Bush to approve human embryonic stem cell "research" on the human stem cell lines that had been created at NIH under Clinton. That was the beginning of the end of the Bush Administration, and nothing was learned from that useless slaughter. Bush caved. The cures are coming from ethical research.
September 1 at 1:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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James Patterson My thoughts seem shallow in comparison, but what we're talking about strikes me as the fight between the perfect and the good. I'm more comfortable with modernity tha most traditional Catholics, and I used my APSA paper on Fulton Sheen to make that case. Kass made his arguments and got people to listen. More hardline Catholics made theirs and failed. One can blame liberalism all one wants, but that's an old trick to rationalize failure. The right response is to redouble efforts, perhaps reconsider the rhetoric or argumentation, and take the best from the options given as a result. If not then your only alternative is the front porch.
September 1 at 2:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Scott - in addition to cannibalizing embryos, it is also unfortunate that embryonic stem cell research has moved ahead because it makes somewhat ill-informed pro-life Catholics paranoid about good scientific research.
The ice-bucket challenge has raised over $90 million for ALS research. Many organizations are tainted because they participate in some degree in embryonic stem cell research. For example, ASLA has one, privately funded study using embryonic stem cells... Now many Catholics are broadcasting far and wide not to participate in the ice bucket challenge because it is immoral. They have not done their homework on organizations using adult stem cells.
So - laziness of pro-life Catholics perpetuates the stereotype that Catholics are anti-science...
September 1 at 2:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Kass's big decision was not perfect vs good though. No good came of it. It was a decision that authorized killing embryonic human life. It was his defining moment, and his only defense is to obscure the pefect vs good rationale. Plus it heralded the beginning of the neo-con reign of terror in DC.
September 1 at 2:04pm · Edited · Like
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James Patterson By the way, fundamentalists Protestants tried the feont porch already, hoping to free-ride Mainliners of the first half of the 20th c. How'd that work out for them?
September 1 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg ???
September 1 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Certainly we don't want the best to be the enemy of the good, but I think the debate here is about the good. It is not a failure to defend the truth and be rejected. It is a failure to defend what is false and succeed. Perhaps Kass got people to listen. But what did they listen to? I have to look again more closely at what he wrote, but I recall at the time thinking it was weak and compromised. I will grant that a better argument may not have succeeded either, but that kind of failure doesn't worry me. Prudence has to have one hand on the true principles and the other hand on the circumstances, but it cannot let go of the truth.
September 1 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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James Patterson Who are you convincing with that approach to stem-cells? You're not wrong, as the Big Lebowski quotation goes, but perhaps...? If folks listen to Kass instead of you, perhaps it's not their fault but yours. Folks listened to Sheen on communism for decades. He did something right. What are you doing wrong?
September 1 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The point is, permitting embryonic stem cell research on human embryos (stem cell lines), in any situation -- even the human embryonic stem cell lines created under Clinton -- is morally bankrupt. End of story really. That's like saying it's okay for the Nazis to kill the Jews in Auschwitz as the Jews were placced in Auschwitz before D-Day.
September 1 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So there was something vacant in Kass's philosophy. It did not always support the good or the perfect. It did support an entirely gratuitous and unethical policy in the Bush Administration.
September 1 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne People were fed a crock about embryonic stem cells by celebrities like Michael J Fox and Mary Tyler Moore and Christopher Reeve - and the media lapped it up.
September 1 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Bush did not even need to take up the issue. Guess who leaked his decision to the WSJ?
September 1 at 2:10pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Btw - the most successful stem cell programs today are adult - taken from the patient's own body.
Dr. Tony Windebank Mayo Clinic and Dr. Richard Burt at Northwestern University Hospital.
September 1 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Christopher Smith has been the champion of ethical stem cell research for decades. He's the real hero here.
September 1 at 2:11pm · Like
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James Patterson It's not the end of the story, but pretending it is a lovely though false consolation for the failure. There should be no quarter for those who wrap themselves up in the Garment of Truth and proclaim that Americans have failed them. There instead should be earnest prayer for forgiveness because of that failure.
September 1 at 2:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The problem I have with your analysis, James, is that your position seems to suggest prudence needs to figure out how to "win". That is not true. Prudence must assess the particular circumstances, but it must do so under the light of what is unchanging and true. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but you seem to suggest that an argument that doesn't persuade somehow has failed.
September 1 at 2:15pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Suggesting that refusing to participate in the ALS challenge is laziness or confusing the perfect w/ the good is nothing less than laughable.
September 1 at 2:14pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Then maybe you have not had the same comments in your feed, Andw Lng.
September 1 at 2:15pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman is neothomism postmodern?
September 1 at 2:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Everything is post-modern right now, except the Art criticism of Carl Schmitt. Post-modernism has a book of false dogma, and everyone seems to be understanding doctrine along those lines.
September 1 at 2:20pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger James, i can't take you seriously at all. at all. By prudence we also judge what battles we can fight and hope to succeed in. The deck is sometimes stacked. In any case your ridicule and insinuous accusation is offensive.
September 1 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne ALS isn't laughable - it kills in perhaps the most torturous way imagine able in a number of years - and I certainly think raising money for research is very pro-life. I also think people with ALS will be the first wave of targets the culture of death seeks to eliminate on the other end of the spectrum, and we have an obligation to assist. I'm sorry you find that laughable.
By the way - these are my Pastors - picture taken a couple of years ago:
http://www.kenoshanews.com/.../i_would_loved_to_be_healed...
September 1 at 2:23pm · Like
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James Patterson I do make such an argument, and in a democracy it is not enough to be right. You must persuade others too. Preferably those who vote. There are plenty of people making wrong arguments, and they are not doing it for fun, usually, and they often care nothing about you or your Truth. You can stop worrying about persuasion once you've built the Thomistic monarchy that heeds the authority of the See. Until then, make like Tocqueville's priest on Polish freedom and PREACH.
September 1 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne This is my Pastor now in the wheelchair - diagnosed with ALS just over a year ago. He can no longer speak, eat, swallow or breathe on his own.
September 1 at 2:24pm · Like
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James Patterson I'm enjoying this but have to run. And I'm not even out of bombs to throw!
September 1 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Kass was not persusasive. Kass's stem-cell decision informed an executive act of the president. It was not democratic. During his campaign, Bush stated he would oppose embryonic stem cell research without equivocation. There was no public referendum on the NIH stem cell lines.
September 1 at 2:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne The crock re: embryonic stem cell research is completely counter productive.
September 1 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Like a flock of Swallows, they fly in no particular direction, but they call that direction truth, and when the course of the Swallow changes, the paid philosophers scramble to call that new direction truth.
September 1 at 2:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Scott's last two points are on point though I wouldn't say philosophers.
September 1 at 2:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Swallows, too, not Sparrows. Too much poetry, I suppose. Or not enough!
September 1 at 2:40pm · Edited · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne James - trot out morally confused, ill celebrities (Parkinson's, etc...) promising the moon re: the benefits of embryonic stem cell research and broadcast it to the general public - and couple that with laziness re: ethical, successful alternative therapies - throw in some ignorant and/or lazy Catholics who don't know the difference, make it look like "pro-lifers" are anti-science and you have the perfect atmosphere to "persuade" voters.
September 1 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I am still wondering, James, whether you are openly advocating that in a democracy we should make efforts to persuade the many irrespective of the truth. At this point, nothing you have said in response has suggested that you think otherwise. Is it your position that the truth can and should be defended through false means?
September 1 at 2:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Embryonic stem cell research is completely counterproductive, to society at large, and to the human embryo.
September 1 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Mark my words. The quickest way to derail a career is to say anything close to truth. I have seen it too many times. And they are shouted down loudest of all. I was only recently reading about a whole class of academics and journalists who fear to speak out for this.
September 1 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Correct Scott.
Like IVF - a torturous process, also immoral - and yet NaProTechnology which is moral, is a significantly more successful treatment.
September 1 at 2:40pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I did not know that the high levels of academia were so tyrranical, John Ruplinger; when I was at CUA, I did come across some professors in the English Department who seemed to hate me because of the false ideology they thought I had embraced during my undergraduate years. I wasn't smart enough to take them on, so I just kind of cowered by myself in the library. Bush hired lots of well-informed Catholics who believe in truth without compromise. He just made a couple bone head decisions, on a couple rare that shouldn't admit compromise -- like bombing cities that have cradled Eatsern Christian civilization for centuries.
I thought universities were all about truth. Truth always rises, like a cork, does it not?
September 1 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The Truth was crucified and would be again, led by the same, the scribes and pharisees. Their hatred is becoming palpable. . . . only the cheering would be louder and Pilate wouldnt wash his hands with water.
September 1 at 3:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think this truth at the expense of tenure thing is worthy of discussion, in light of TNET. Tenure is a thread, and so is a four year degree. Can we tie these loose ends together? Should Catholic liberal arts colleges double-down on truth and strategize for a breakthrough in academia, or should they make wise concessions? And does this question make TNET a conspiracy?
September 1 at 3:01pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg If Faith is bolstered by reason, and this synthesis illumines the content of modern academia, how can we lose the argument over time?
September 1 at 3:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng. Yes, I think so.
September 1 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think, by answering the question, Daniel, and including a third party, you have made TNET a consipracy, implicating us all.
September 1 at 3:12pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger True. We are all to blame. I am only implicating the usual suspects (viz. all of us but with distinctions). It is the same in every age. We just think we are better. not so. not so.
September 1 at 3:50pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger thought you addressed me, Scott.
September 1 at 3:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Perhaps this conversation is better for suited after nighfall, for this is "dark business."
September 1 at 3:28pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg "We like to discuss dark business in the dark." -- Thorin Oakenshield, The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party.
September 1 at 3:21pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Come to think of it, James, Tocqueville's warning about the effect of majority opinion on the courtier spirit and national character, its omnipotence and tyranny make the Truth particularly odious. And is that opinion unmolded? [But these are the SAME opinions that Newman speaks of in "Illative Sense" as well as in Bacon, to make no mention of Plato and Aristotle.]
September 1 at 4:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me that TAC is proposing the very same thing proposed by Gandalf, countless centuries ago, to retrieve stolen treasure from the Dragon, and to restore those treasures to their proper place or origin.
September 1 at 3:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Tolkien was a great historian. I just wish he wrote fiction!
September 1 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger All right, James. I apologize. We proceed from different assumptions. I thought you were saying something else. But your most basic false assumption is that you would be given a fair public hearing. In the public sphere it doesn't happen. I have been involved in campaigns and seen it from a distance. Yet, precisely what you are saying is unclear.
September 1 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well, I see you all had a busy weekend!
September 1 at 4:59pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg BUY NOW! For a limited time only...
New KidSafe TNET Tatoo
Special College Dorm Room Application Kit
$19.99
1-800-TNET-NOW
(WARNING: This is a permanent tatoo. Will not wash off with soap and water)
Order yours now. Catholic liberal arts students are standing by to take your call. Order while supplies last.
September 1 at 5:51pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Thread losing steam?
September 1 at 6:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Will it end with a bang, or a whimper?
September 1 at 6:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict A whang. No...a bimper.
September 1 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I'm so confused right now.
September 1 at 6:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Truth will always out, throughout time, humanity's course has always born this out, as long as there are poets and scholars who seek God, as long as there are students willing to learn, and long as there are teachers and tutoes wiliing to support their quest. Even in the darkest times, when all hope was lost, humanity always found its way out of the cave, in age after age; faith has always shone her lamp; as when the pre-Socratics rulled the world and the arts, and delighted everyone with their dim ray of hope, soon after there came an even greater light, then a flourishing, then a great age of suffering, but then a great era, when east and west were united in Holy civilization; followed by even more harmful monsters, always replacing themselves with God, there is nothing new under the sun; the man of power who advocates morality in place of God is no different than the King pretending to govern the teaching of the Church of Rome; it all falls apart, but as long as there is you, there is hope, and humaity's best days are not behind, but straight ahead. So keep going, keep going up the hill, keep going, and sing!
September 1 at 6:34pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Fear not the confusion of The Thread. That's just the shining light of the sun. Bid farewell to your shackles
September 1 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I like Scott much, much better than Peregrine.
September 1 at 6:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne Revisiting stem cells - good article - donations now top $90million.
http://denvercatholicregister.org/.../ice-bucket.../...
The ice bucket challenge’s ethical surprise - Denver Catholic Register
The Most Rev. Samuel J. Aquila is the eighth bishop of...
DENVERCATHOLICREGISTER.ORG
September 1 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Scott is something like the thread's clown or fool. His next incarnation he'll make fools of us all -- or is that has made?
September 1 at 6:52pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No just me I think
September 1 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger All i know is that the farther down the thread i go the more fool i feel. I will be a complete imbecile soon.
September 1 at 6:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's turtles all the way down, John.
September 1 at 6:58pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Statement: Ernest Hemingway is a better writer than Jane Austen. Discuss.
September 1 at 7:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley I feel like Scott is Peregrine, Strauss version.
September 1 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger no one wants my opinion of recent literature. But how do you like Rip van Winkle?
September 1 at 7:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ....not....taking....the bait.....
September 1 at 7:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I love that story, John! One of the best American legends.
September 1 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger isak. That is.
September 1 at 7:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hemingway's characters are practically real people. Austen writes about cardboard cutouts who all sound like Jane Austen.
September 1 at 7:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger that's interesting.
September 1 at 7:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Heeheehee
September 1 at 7:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ....still.....resisting......
September 1 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger My nickname was Rip in grade school. Half the boys were named John.
September 1 at 7:11pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No for real. Everyone tells me I'm missing out on her incredible insight into human nature, especially the relationship between female and male nature - and I'm just not seeing it.
September 1 at 7:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Austen's men were like her too.
September 1 at 7:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe First of all, there would have been no Hemmingway without Austen. She is really the inventor of the modern novel.
September 1 at 7:13pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I do believe that honor belongs to Cervantes...
September 1 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Secondly, Hemmingway's characters were all just lightly fictionalized versions of people he knew, so if that's what you mean by "actually real people," then sure
September 1 at 7:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nonsense.
September 1 at 7:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Balderdash!
September 1 at 7:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But that's hardly literary merit
September 1 at 7:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger James roasts Austen in Portrait of a Lady
September 1 at 7:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Some of Austen's characters are ridiculous, but those ones are also hilarious.
September 1 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i have no dog . . .
September 1 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Her main characters are incredibly nuanced, and she is the best writer of romance in the ENTIRE ENGLISH LANGUAGE
September 1 at 7:16pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I for sure have a dog in *this* fight.
September 1 at 7:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I disagree that there would be no Hemingway without Austen. He's not indebted to her or influenced by her in the slightest.
September 1 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wait so lightly fictionalized < incredibly nuanced?
September 1 at 7:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger SO she is the one i should blame.
September 1 at 7:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, especially if your understanding of the people you are lightly fictionalizing is shallow at best.
September 1 at 7:17pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe He is indebted to her in the sense that every novelist after her is indebted to her
September 1 at 7:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict And CLEARLY the best writer of romance in the entire English language is Nicholas Sparks.
September 1 at 7:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why do I allow myself to be trolled in this way?
September 1 at 7:18pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict You don't think there are any better writers of romance than Austen? Austen's romances are so...well, trivial.
September 1 at 7:22pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What do you mean, trivial? Like, no one dies?
September 1 at 7:21pm · Like
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Isak Benedict They're quite nice. They're very safe romances.
September 1 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So you're complaining that no one dies
September 1 at 7:22pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict Ha, no. I'm saying the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel than whether or not a young lady is marriageable.
September 1 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger EXQUISITE. James' Lady Blackbird . . . . something of a meretrix running a moulin rouge = Jane Austen writing books.
September 1 at 7:29pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So the stakes are never higher in an Austen novel then the thing that young lady's ENTIRE LIFE hinges upon?
September 1 at 7:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe A novel does not need to be an epic tragedy to be great
September 1 at 7:25pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Her stories practically never leave their figurative parlor.
September 1 at 7:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Lizzy goes to like five places in P and P.
September 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And anyway, so what?
September 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Oh yeah, her cushy high class life. How awful that she might not find a man!
September 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Exactly. So what?
September 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger she was just a bitter young . . .
September 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, now I don't think you've ever read her novels
September 1 at 7:27pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or if you did, you weren't paying attention
September 1 at 7:27pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the protagonists in Jane Austen are mostly not guaranteed cushy high class lives. In fact they are pretty much universally doomed to penury and humiliating subservience unless they do marry well.
September 1 at 7:28pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The exception is Emma
September 1 at 7:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You know what, I can admit that there might be something missing in my soul, or something broken, that might be obstructing me from enjoying her stories. But I find her infuriating.
September 1 at 7:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Okay...let's not do Emma. Emma was the worst of the lot.
September 1 at 7:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I brought up Emma because she does have and will continue to have a cushy life regardless of marriage prospects
September 1 at 7:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, all I ask is that you admit that there is something missing or broken in your soul.
September 1 at 7:30pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Kudos for using penury in a sentence by the way
September 1 at 7:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, we can be done.
September 1 at 7:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks?
September 1 at 7:31pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wow you'd think I helped Mark Twain dig her up and beat her over the head with her own shin-bone!
September 1 at 7:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe BTW, you aren't also a former tutor who is 30 years older than me, are you?
September 1 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But James goes a bit too far and he was an imp himself. Austen's P and P was all right except the ending.
September 1 at 7:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because I've been unintentionally disrespectful to my elders and betters quite a bit on this thread
September 1 at 7:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So your manner changes depending on your interlocutor?
September 1 at 7:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Shouldn't it, ideally?
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^Rhetoric 101, seems to me.
September 1 at 7:33pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict Just clarifying.
September 1 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe well, are you?
September 1 at 7:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So when you discover the identity of some of your conversationalists, what was formerly intentional disrespect becomes unintentional disrespect?
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Don't hate me, but I would replace Emma with Middlemarch. It would make a nice follow-up to Feuerbach, since George Eliot was the first to translate that work into English, if I'm not mistaken.
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Right.
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Even if Austen was mediocre (which she wasn't), she is still better than Hemingway, who, let's face it, isn't even in the running for best novelist of his century.
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Samantha Cohoe Middlemarch is better than Emma.
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe But it's too long.
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe THANK you.
September 1 at 7:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Of course I'm not. But I am pointing out that you're reacting like I've attacked you personally. I've criticized Austen. Surely you can handle that.
September 1 at 7:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I can handle it. This is how I handle it.
September 1 at 7:36pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Re: Middlemarch-- too long for senior seminar, I mean, not too long simply speaking
September 1 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Emma may be the worst of the lot, but it is still inestimably better than anything Hemingway wrote.
September 1 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict You're telling me Emma > The Old Man and the Sea? Okay. Why?
September 1 at 7:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Weren't you the one complaining that nothing happens in Austen?
September 1 at 7:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe my comment about your soul was mostly a joke, btw
September 1 at 7:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, I can't tell, are you actually offended? I thought the entire purpose of your comments was to make me flip out
September 1 at 7:39pm · Like
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Joel HF Isak is the son of the ex tutor. Isak is class of 10, I think.
September 1 at 7:39pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No no, sorry if I gave that impression! The Sparks comment was entirely facetious, I admit.
September 1 at 7:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Actually I just remembered. She belongs in level two. sappy schmooze is not great literature. Just because she makes you swoon . . . but she is superficial. I mean the life she depicts which is not all her fault.
September 1 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Wodzinski would say that if one didn't appreciate Emma, one should read the Nicomachean Ethics again.
September 1 at 7:45pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm not offended at all and I'm sorry for pushing your buttons.
September 1 at 7:41pm · Like
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Joel HF She is anything but superficial.
September 1 at 7:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wasn't Wodzinski's favorite movie Army of Darkness?
September 1 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I don't think nothing happens in The Old Man. It's actually pretty epic.
September 1 at 7:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ooohhhh.
September 1 at 7:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I agree with John. I think she's charming but that's about it.
September 1 at 7:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, push away. It's fine. But this is what happens when you do.
September 1 at 7:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Superficial is a better word than trivial for what I mean.
September 1 at 7:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe She is only superficial if you think human families and relationships are superficial
September 1 at 7:44pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger havent read Emma in a long while. I will say this. She is overrated and her men are wilting noodles. How did that society reproduce?
September 1 at 7:45pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Nieto said that when it comes to the English language it was either Emma or Lear.
September 1 at 7:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe John Ruplinger, I refuse to believe that you are serious. If you are, then I'm sorry, but you aren't worth trying to convince
September 1 at 7:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well if John Nieto thinks Emma is the pinnacle of the English language, then I better take another look. I'm very, very skeptical of that claim.
September 1 at 7:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Samantha, why do you go right for the ad hominem?
September 1 at 7:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I went for the ad hominem after trying several other approaches
September 1 at 7:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Ad hominems are wonderful - but you don't break out the big guns first
September 1 at 7:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It has to be possible to discuss a book that some love and some despise. Taste can't be the sole arbiter here.
September 1 at 7:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So how do we do it?
September 1 at 7:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Bingley is a wilting noodle, but Darcy, Knightly?
September 1 at 7:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No.
September 1 at 7:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger the society was superficial. I am overcompensating for too much adulation. I Ioved Austen as a boy. And dont mind watching renditions with the wife.
September 1 at 7:48pm · Like
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Joel HF For the record, IMO, Emma is only Austen's 4th best work.
September 1 at 7:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe aHA. I knew you were arguing against the movies, and not the books
September 1 at 7:48pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hmmm.... I actually think it's her third best
September 1 at 7:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i read all as a boy.
September 1 at 7:49pm · Like
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Joel HF Haha, I could see that.
September 1 at 7:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and taught P and P.
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Mansfield Park is sappy schmooze? mmmkay
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, maybe try them again as a man.
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict ^HAHA
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Nice.
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's a misogynistic habit to dismiss books that primarily depict marriage and romance.
September 1 at 7:50pm · Like
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Joel HF Which do you put in first and second, Samantha Cohoe?
September 1 at 7:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks. Set me up for that one, though
September 1 at 7:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and taught P and P. And i deserve Samantha's vituperation.
September 1 at 7:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe 1) Pride and Prejudice 2) Persuasion
September 1 at 8:15pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict No one is dismissing books that primarily depict marriage and romance. Just the bad ones. And anyway why are you assuming men aren't just as interested in those subjects as women? That seems to be a pretty biased statement to me.
September 1 at 7:51pm · Like
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Nina Rachele disclaimer I have only read the last 30 comments
September 1 at 7:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think that when that seems to be the main content of the complaint, it's likely motivated by (probably unconscious) misogyny
September 1 at 7:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict More than I have!
September 1 at 7:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dude, you singlehandedly generated the last 30 comments, at least
September 1 at 7:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So once again, your problem is not really with the opinion but with the one who holds it?
September 1 at 7:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Bingly and Darcey are better comparative to eunuchs. yes
September 1 at 7:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, I'm saying the opinion expressed misogyny
September 1 at 7:53pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Austen herelf admitted P&P was too too cheerful. but, again, Mansfield Park... her last book, and my personal favorite. it's Austen, but it's got a clear serious moral core
September 1 at 7:55pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict An opinion doesn't express. An opinion is expressed.
September 1 at 7:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger eunuchs meaning many of the other men
September 1 at 7:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry? Why?
September 1 at 7:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I have a dog in the Jane Austen fight. Let is all strive to speak like Bingly from time to time.
September 1 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe don't be a pedant. an opinion does both
September 1 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict An opinion doesn't express itself. Don't call names.
September 1 at 7:56pm · Like
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Nina Rachele what is with this thread spelling names wrong, it's Bingley folks
September 1 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thank you Nina.
September 1 at 7:57pm · Like
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Adrw Lng This thread is a big "people who will never meet in real life but I wish that they have X conversation someday" dream
September 1 at 7:57pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Do you know all of us Adrw? Cause I mostly have no idea who I'm talking to.
September 1 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe '06ers excepted.
September 1 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele No-one has responded on Mansfield Park, so I suggest everyone go read it carefully and then we can really talk Austen.
September 1 at 7:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I once loved Austen but she glorifies AFFECTION and dismisses DUTY. James was right to call her a panderer though he was hardly better.
September 1 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dismisses duty? How?
September 1 at 7:59pm · Like
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Nina Rachele unless John is preparing one of those massive posts right now, in which case I will gladly eat my words.
September 1 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, what is wrong with affection?
September 1 at 8:00pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Um, Mansfield Park. Again.
September 1 at 8:00pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Also, what about Emma's filial duty to her father.
September 1 at 8:01pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mansfield Park is extremely duty-focused, but it isn't her best work
September 1 at 8:01pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell While we're on the subject of Senior Seminar, can someone explain to me why the greatest novel of the 19th c. isn't on the list? What is with the absence of Stendhal's Charterhouse of Parma? Is it because he was a Bonapartiste?
September 1 at 8:01pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Possibly the most noble aspect of Emma's personality.
September 1 at 8:02pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Huh, haven't read that. Is it really that great?
September 1 at 8:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger well now you will make me reread her. Talk me into it.
September 1 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Amazeballs. So good.
September 1 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Emma or Mansfield?
September 1 at 8:04pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I didn't discover Stendhal until I was 31, but since I did, I've read just about everything he wrote. But Charterhouse of Parma is his masterwork.
September 1 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Samantha I know most of the people who are in the younger grades commenting on this thread, from working at the college.
And Hemingway has his moments of greatness, fwiw
September 1 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Do chicks dig Darcy? If so, why?
September 1 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Well I would say Mansfield...
September 1 at 8:06pm · Like
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Nina Rachele People have fewer notions about it than her other books so it's easier to read without getting biased one way or another.
September 1 at 8:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF I haven't heard of "Amazeballs." Who's it by?
September 1 at 8:08pm · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell My description of Stendhal's The Charterhouse of Parma.
September 1 at 8:09pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Andrw Lng apparently, I cannot tag you, haha. I did want to chime in and say I thought A Moveable Feast was an enjoyable book.
September 1 at 8:10pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Untergang des Abendlandes: http://www.nbcnews.com/.../cray-yolo-amazeballs-added...
'Cray,' 'YOLO,' 'Amazeballs' Added to Oxford Dictionary - NBC News
Pop culture and Internet slang are becoming more...
NBCNEWS.COM
September 1 at 8:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ^ our lives are a facepalm
September 1 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele you heard it first here on TNET!
September 1 at 8:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Like Darcy, every lib'rally educated man should come with carriages and castles.
September 1 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger To be clear, I did once love Austen but her star has faded. My taste is for Pomeral or fast from wine. So take my criticism with that in mind.
September 1 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Me and movies dont get along any more. My poor wife.
September 1 at 8:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger BTW i drink box wine. But i can afford good books. Which are most, free.
September 1 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Have I mentioned that I really enjoy New Scott?
September 1 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
The problem with Emma is that Austin didn't persuade me to care one way or the other about any of her characters and I in turn did not care what happened to them.
I mean other than the father, she did persuade me to want to throw him down a well to save him from is his miserable self.
September 1 at 8:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And thanks for the recommendation, Daniel. I will read this "Amazeballs" of which you speak.
September 1 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Mansfield it is. Are there any men in it?
September 1 at 8:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Franklin Salazar has advanced the only good criticism of Emma so far. Emma is a total brat, so it's pretty easy to get fed up with her. Really, though, let's at least spell Austen right.
September 1 at 8:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe Emma is Austen's fourth best, Joel.
September 1 at 8:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger yeah. I just membered Emma was the only i never liked.
September 1 at 8:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe uhhhhhh. you troll
September 1 at 8:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen? The best writer of romance in the English language? You guys are cray
September 1 at 8:30pm · Like · 3
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Franklin Salazar --
Sense and Sensibility in contrast persuades us to care very much about the outcome. Or compare Emma to David Copperfield,
Uriah Heep the best villain all time falling short only of dracula makes us care deeply about the outcome.
I want a book to rip at my soul where I'm in fear of what is to come of the characters.
September 1 at 8:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I wish we had a Jane Austen or Harriet Beecher Stow today. Sheer artistry and ability to capute the shades of emotion, like a masterpiece painting. What light they could shed on today's issues, so that the public could make right judgments about pressing issues.
September 1 at 8:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen = Albrecht Durer of masterpiece painting.
Paints a wicked rabbit though
September 1 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- Care to advance another candidate?
September 1 at 8:38pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Let's talk about the issues.
September 1 at 8:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia No, I'm a critic. I only tear things down
September 1 at 8:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and as far as "owes a debt to" Aristotle owes a debt to the pre-Socratics, but you wouldn't say that he passed them by?
September 1 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Let me know what you think, Samantha. The Penguin edition has a good translation.
September 1 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I am all for spelling author's names right. Hemingway included.
September 1 at 8:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That was just my "first of all." But I don't think the debt is the same, Hemmingway's is much greater. And regardless, he didn't surpass her
September 1 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh no, Hemingway sucks
September 1 at 8:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia too
September 1 at 8:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe At least you are consistent
September 1 at 8:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen, IMHO, writes beautiful prose and very well constructed plots about . . . .wait for it. . . . rabbits
September 1 at 8:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia domestic ones
September 1 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I know you guys' scam, you're just trying to whip up the masses so we get past 1100 before midnight.
September 1 at 8:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's like Durer's painting of a beetle.... looks like a beetle... life like. Masterfully done. But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a beetle.
September 1 at 8:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I like domesticity. It's interesting. It's an enormous part of life. It is not comparable to rabbits.
September 1 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia have you read Watership Down?
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No way. Austen is writing about courtship and marriage, which is a lot bigger than a beetle in a painting.
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, no
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know it's about rabbits, though
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Flannery O'connor is swell. She was a good sport. Loved the peacock too. The king of birds.
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Hemingway doesn't suck. But comparing him to Austen is like apples and pears.
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (it's called hyperbole)
September 1 at 8:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger MB if i were drinking, i would have spit out beer. "domestic rabbits" > James and shorter
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I liked the Sun Also Rises. Made me want to get super drunk in Spain.
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Question: is domesticity intrinsically more interesting to women? (Please don't kill me)
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Shotguns to tea.
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, and normally I'm a fan, but you're using it against Jane Austen, so you must die
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I mean, if you look at the short story collections like In Our Time and Men Without Women, those are some of the finer short stories in the first half of the 20th c. in English. Only Joyce is better in Dubliners.
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (ducks)
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Joyce sucks.
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If it is, then that's a fault of men Adrw.
September 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Samantha, going on an international bender is one thing I regret never having to regret
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joyce is great
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Lemons with his fish and chips.
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Me too. Too late now, though. I'm old and responsible.
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joyce DOES suck!
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Araby is good. Portrait of an artist is very corrupt.
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Bah no taste
September 1 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Joyce is a POS (straps on gloves)
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I haven't been on here in a few days, but then I got into the gin, so here I am.
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe back at you
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg POS?
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia piece of shit
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Elaborate your point about men and the household Samantha ?
September 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Oh, my. He was so gifted, like Goethe.
September 1 at 8:49pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Portrait of an Artist is horrible
September 1 at 8:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Define horrible...
See Translation
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia not about rabbits
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Because aesthetically it's genius ...
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think talented artists are preyed upon, because they are so important to God.
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Domesticity is intrinsically interesting, and if it is true that men are less interested in it, then that's a fault in them. Just as, whiskey is inherently delicious, and if women like whiskey less than men do, then that's our fault.
September 1 at 8:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa My class read that book in high school. Couldn't really tell you what it's about.
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Horrible is immoral. Draws you in with senses, then leads you down the path of corruption.
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like
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Nina Rachele It inspired a _lovely_ anti-Catholic speech from my instructor when we were reading it in high school... so I may be biased.
September 1 at 8:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Horrible is beautiful portrayal of the ugly, using art to normalize wickedness.
September 1 at 8:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^if that works for horrible
then Austen is banal
September 1 at 8:52pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg banal is one of my all time favorite words. let us use it.
September 1 at 8:52pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Samantha, thanks. Even so, is it possibly still just more interesting to women? Fault vs. difference?
September 1 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia just did
September 1 at 8:53pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sorry, Joyce just goes from glory (Chamber Music poems) to glory (Dubliners) to glory (Ulysses) as far as I'm concerned. The only place I can't follow him is into Finnegans Wake. But I (sometimes) blame myself for that.
September 1 at 8:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, sure. Probably
September 1 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele But when exactly did women start liking Austen better than men?
September 1 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Art is like math. We cannot disagree on the banal.
September 1 at 8:54pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Because I think that only happened about eighty years ago....
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Nina Rachele ...or so...
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Scott Weinberg Euclid's prop. 1.32 is banal.
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Scott Weinberg Adolf Eichmann was banal, according to Hanna Arendt.
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Daniel P. O'Connell See, this is why Mary Ann Evans wrote under the name George Eliot. If Jane Austen wrote under the name Thomas O'Dell, would we find her better or worse for it?
September 1 at 8:55pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I think my dad appreciates Austen's humor even better than I do, though he's only watched the BBC version and hasn't read the books.
September 1 at 8:55pm · Like
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Tim Cantu suppositories are... oh, banal.
September 1 at 8:55pm · Like
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Nina Rachele though that's just a personal aside...
September 1 at 8:56pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell A mental exercise I propose: Pick up Emma or one of Austen's other novels and read it as if it had been written by a man. How would you (do you?) judge it differently...?
September 1 at 8:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think men would still have noticed that women liked it, and consequently make dumb criticisms such as that it is "shmaltzy" or "mushy" or whatever.
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Scott Weinberg pronounced like canal.
September 1 at 8:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But yes, the rest of you try what Daniel suggests
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Michael Beitia I'd rather re-read something worthwhile
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Tim Cantu I don't read Facebook out loud to myself, so
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Michael Beitia I imagine you are a man, Tim
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Tim Cantu I'm confused. I blame the aforementioned gin and the fact that I'm on my phone so you people move too fast.
September 1 at 8:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Imagination rhymes.
September 1 at 8:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO. James said he would have shot himself had he lived in Austens society. He wrote a long novel to torture the reader while scorching Austen. Nina
September 1 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
Austin writes like a girl, my imagining won't change that.
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Samantha Cohoe ^^not an insult^^
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Samantha Cohoe I might have shot myself, too, if I had lived in Austen's society
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Michael Beitia Isn't the wicked in Wuthering Heights less banal?
September 1 at 9:00pm · Like
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Adrw Lng If Guy Davenport can't convince me to like Joyce no one can
September 1 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Yes let's talk about how awesome Wuthering Heights is
September 1 at 9:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No!
September 1 at 9:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Wuthering Heights is a POS.
September 1 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Hahaha
September 1 at 9:01pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I actually did reread it recently
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Samantha Cohoe So did I. It's terrible!
September 1 at 9:02pm · Like
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Nina Rachele It is a strange book but I love the narration style.
September 1 at 9:02pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
Not an insult, I like girl writers, Edith Wharton for instance.
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Samantha Cohoe I'm supposed to be working, would you guys stop saying stuff about literature? This is cocaine to me.
September 1 at 9:02pm · Like · 5
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Nina Rachele The third party "witness" narrator is one of my favorite literary devices.
September 1 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger NO. I cant even read Wuthering Heights.
September 1 at 9:03pm · Like
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Franklin Salazar --
A modern girl writer I like is Elizabeth Kostova
This line is nice:
“[I]t seemed to me now that a Catholic church was the right companion for all these horrors. Didn't Catholicism deal with blood and resurrected flesh on a daily basis? Wasn't it expert in superstition? I somehow doubted that the hospitable plain Protestant chapels that dotted the university could be much help; they didn't look qualified to wrestle with the undead. I felt sure those big square Puritan churches on the town green would be helpless in the face of a European vampire. A little witch burning was more in their line--something limited to the neighbors.”
page 198
September 1 at 9:05pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele from The Historian, right?
September 1 at 9:05pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So sad that I missed the discussion of Austen, but I enjoyed reading the banter. One thought comes to mind. I think Austen aims at and achieves something relatively small, but she does it well. And I like her for that. Having made that confession, I hasten to add that she cannot compare to the truly great novelists, such as Dostoevsky, who aims at and achieves something absolutely magnificent. Austen is Monet; Dostoevsky is Michelangelo. I like Monet, but I am awed by Michelangelo.
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Michael Beitia How about Mary Shelly?
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Franklin Salazar yes
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Michael Beitia except Austen is the Durer painting of the rabbit, Jeffrey.
September 1 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Austen's settings are small, but her themes are not.
September 1 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ha
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Jeffrey Bond Shelly's Frankenstein is just paraphrased Rousseau. I'm not impressed.
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Michael Beitia burden of proof is on you
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Adrw Lng Well said Jeffrey Bond and Joyce is a noisy Damien Hirst
September 1 at 9:07pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF More like Austen is Vermeer. And I'd say Vermeer and Michelangelo are doing different things, but are equally impressive.
September 1 at 9:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia still better than Percy Shelly
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Nina Rachele I thought Kostova wrote a pretty worthy successor to Dracula in that book... at least she took the vampire thing seriously, which most authors seam incapable of doing even when they try.
September 1 at 9:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Agreed, Jeffrey Bond.
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Michael Beitia Vermeer painted people. That's too high brow for Austen
September 1 at 9:08pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Here's the proof. Read Rousseau's Second Discourse. Then read Frankenstein. You'll think you are reading the Cliff Notes to Rousseau.
September 1 at 9:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Percy Bysssssshhhhhe Shelley?
September 1 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Her themes are courtship and romance and family and class and money and society! Those are not small themes!
September 1 at 9:08pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes they are
September 1 at 9:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You are hopeless.
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Jeffrey Bond I don't want to be combative, but those are not themes. Those are subject matters. A theme has to say something about a subject matter.
September 1 at 9:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes I am
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Nina Rachele Lower middle class women being constantly on the edge of ruin is a small theme?
September 1 at 9:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Does it?
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Samantha Cohoe I have never heard that.
September 1 at 9:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But then, I went to TAC
September 1 at 9:10pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Nina, that's pretty much all times in all places. Universality doesn't make is a large theme
September 1 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Again, that is not a theme. A theme must say something about such women in that state.
September 1 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wouldn't that be a thesis?
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Samantha Cohoe Serious question-- I have never taken a conventional lit class in my entire life.
September 1 at 9:11pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia antithesis synthesis. . . and we're back to Hegel
September 1 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner I never heard it before either, yet a quick google told me the following: "It is important not to confuse a theme of a literary work with its subject. Subject is a topic which acts as a foundation for a literary work while a theme is an opinion expressed on the subject." http://literarydevices.net/theme/ Huh!
Theme - Definition and Examples of Theme
Definition, Usage and a list of Theme Examples in common speech and literature. Theme is defined as a main idea or an underlying meaning of a literary work which may be stated directly or indirectly.
LITERARYDEVICES.NET
September 1 at 9:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele ::cleans out ears:: we are talking about female virtue not being an important subject? Let's switch to subject, since I agree it's a better word.
September 1 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond For example, revenge in Hamlet is a subject matter, not a theme. To claim that revenge is destructive of human life is a theme.
September 1 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The return to Hegel is a leitmotif of this thread.
September 1 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's like that chord in Wagner.
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Jeffrey Bond Thank you Katherine Gardner.
September 1 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so what's the antithesis to Austen?
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Nina Rachele Samantha I also have no idea about literary analysis
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the synthesis is Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, right?
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I just read stuff.
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
Nina Rachele,
Have you read Whitley Strieber's The Hunger, what do you think of it as successor?
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Speaking of which, I'm off to read Gadamer on Hegel and the ancients. Good night to all! Samantha: Get to work!
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF A theme is writing about red rider BB guns that have a compass and a thing that tells time. Duh.
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I have not, though it sounds familiar.
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well we hit 11K. . .. my work here is done.
September 1 at 9:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell *drops mic*
September 1 at 9:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen is great.... timeless classics about the best of all possible subjects
then drops mic
September 1 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell *exeunt omnes*
September 1 at 9:14pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele ::shakes head::
September 1 at 9:14pm · Like
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Nina Rachele you kids... (who are all older than me...)
September 1 at 9:15pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks everybody. Glad we had this talk.
September 1 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley 100 more to 11,111
September 1 at 9:21pm · Like
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Nina Rachele ED it had just simmered down shhhhh
September 1 at 9:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, I think Crime and Punishment can't begin to match War and Peace: sure it might have better characterization and such, but Tolstoy is much better at constructing a plot that helps one see his view of history.
September 1 at 9:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, as Aristotle says, plot is primary in the poetic art.
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Nina Rachele ^ nope.
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Nina Rachele I mean, sorry, I do think Crime and Punishment is a better novel.
September 1 at 9:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I actually think Tolstoy has better characterization.
September 1 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele But War and Peace isn't exactly a novel.
September 1 at 9:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Every single one of Dostoevsky's characters has a diseased mind
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Samantha Cohoe It would be, if you took out the philosophy of history stuff.
September 1 at 9:27pm · Like
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Joel HF Tolstoy is a better writer, but worse thinker, imo, anyway.
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John Ruplinger banned topics: Austen and NFP . . . . . . . although I do doubt that those women had any "need" for it.
September 1 at 9:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, you are just... the worst.
September 1 at 9:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley (I also think that English has the best literature ever written)
September 1 at 9:28pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I don't think War and Peace would be... itself without the philosophy of history stuff.
September 1 at 9:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley But that's a side topic.
September 1 at 9:28pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Let's have a fight between Crime and Punishment and Anna Karenina instead.
September 1 at 9:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, please. Have mercy. That is even more like cocaine to me than the other stuff
September 1 at 9:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Haven't read Anna Karenina, but I'd gladly watch
September 1 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele they are actually much more similar books in a way.
September 1 at 9:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER WRITTEN
September 1 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . only because of the men. . .
September 1 at 9:30pm · Like
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Nina Rachele it is amazing, if you haven't read it.
September 1 at 9:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I should.
September 1 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The last time I read a bunch of literature, was extra-curricular readings during junior year.
September 1 at 9:31pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I would also make sure you read the introduction after you finish it, because it talks about how Tolstoy developed Anna as a character and it's fascinating.
September 1 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley The crowning jewel was the whole of the idiot.
September 1 at 9:31pm · Like
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Katie Duda Really??? War and peace isn't a novel????
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Franklin Salazar --
Anna Karenina is just depressing. It's like watching one long train wreck into oblivion. Not unlike watching Becky Sharp.
September 1 at 9:32pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele I mean the intro to the Pevear/ Volokhonsky translation
September 1 at 9:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I have read War and Peace a couple times leaving out the philosophy of history stuff and it works just great.
September 1 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley But a Russian novel just wouldn't be the same without the philosophical essays tucked in here an there.
September 1 at 9:32pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I never liked Austen...and that Nieto or anyone else does, does not sway me on that point.
A group of us, after the Austen seminars went out drinking and quoting battle scenes from the Iliad and Odyssey to each other...that was glorious.
Don't get me wrong, I recognize a technical skill there. But as with any fiction there is a certain subjective element. Maybe because the setting, landed gentry, does not appeal to me or because the sentimentalist works she satirized are not works that I have any knowledge of save that they existed...how could one appreciate Cervantes if they didn't have at least a basic idea of what works of chivalry and courtly love were like?
Not to mention the extrinsic context...liking Austen has very frequently been used as a criterion by literary snobs.
Now maybe if I were more familiar with sentimentalist works, or the cultural context, etc I would appreciate Austen more. But frankly I still would find it short of my appreciation of "lesser authors"
September 1 at 9:32pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's not "depressing." It is tragic! Would you call Oedipus Rex "depressing?" King Lear?
September 1 at 9:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Nina Rachele “It is not a novel, still less an epic poem, still less a historical chronicle. War and Peace is what the author wanted, and was able to express, in the form in which it is expressed.”
September 1 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Anna Karina
September 1 at 9:33pm · Like
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Nina Rachele --Tolstoy
September 1 at 9:33pm · Like
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Nina Rachele https://tableau.uchicago.edu/.../04/why-read-war-and-peace
Why Read War and Peace? | Tableau
There are novels. There are long Russian novels. And then there’s War and Peace. The book’s complexity and...
TABLEAU.UCHICAGO.EDU
September 1 at 9:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nina, Tolstoy had some delusions about himself. He was a truly great novelist, but that wasn't what he wanted to be, sadly
September 1 at 9:33pm · Unlike · 1
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Nina Rachele I did read his "What is Art?" for my thesis so I know he was pretty odd.
September 1 at 9:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Poetics is a lot like math. We all have our favs, but is there a rule by which we can say this is good or true? Cicero prescibed a form for rhetorical speech, an equation called an epicheireme. There is a literary demonstration, playing on the imagination.
War and Peace is longer than the Bible.
September 1 at 9:35pm · Like
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Katie Duda Yeah. I am familiar with the article;) i think there is something about the novel being the form of literature wherein men explore value. (In distinction, to say epic, which has a different relationship to value). War and peace would set the bar quite high
September 1 at 9:35pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele I just think the historical essay at the end is integral to the work; not saying you can't skip it, but you would never, say, publish the book without it.
September 1 at 9:36pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I dunno, the nobility of the action depicted is a fairly objective standard by which to rank novels and other literature.
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Franklin Salazar --
Miss Samantha,
Tragic and depressing because you spend the entire novel watching Anna Kerenina throwing away happiness.
September 1 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, everybody should read it once with all the philosophy garbage, to get Tolstoy's complete picture. Then they should read it every time after that without.
September 1 at 9:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley All the philosophical stuff in Tolstoy definitely is a welcome respite from having to read literature.
September 1 at 9:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg War and Peace is a big long demonstration, required a big story board, about 1500 times bigger than the death star prop.
September 1 at 9:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think that's what she is doing, Franklin. She isn't happy at the beginning of the novel.
September 1 at 9:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley The only problem I had with W&P was that it took 200 pages for anything to get going.
September 1 at 9:39pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz The Idiot by Dostoyevsky was better than his Crime and Punishment or the Brothers K, and does not get enough love.
Tolstoy? I think I agree with Mrs. Cohoe about how to read him
September 1 at 9:39pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley From what my wife has said about Anna Karenina, it sounds like an epic version of the Doll House.
September 1 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Yes, before I had to read it for school I tried and failed to get into it.
September 1 at 9:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe NOOOOOOoooOOOOOOOooo
September 1 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe They are both about women in unfortunate marriages. That's it.
September 1 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
Miss Samantha
I suppose it depends on how one defines happiness. She can't be happy outside of her family and her son.
September 1 at 9:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Karenina has 100% more adultery.
September 1 at 9:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes.
September 1 at 9:41pm · Like
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Nina Rachele have any of you read the Tolstoy short story "Family Happiness"
September 1 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So a cross between Doll House and Mansfield Park?
September 1 at 9:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Russian literature >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>English literature
September 1 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I feel like an idiot. When Langley said Doll House, I thought of Joss Whedon's Doll House and had no idea what he was thinking....
September 1 at 9:41pm · Unlike · 7
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Nina Rachele ^ Hahaha wow...
September 1 at 9:42pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anna Karenina is not a "version of" nor a "cross between" anything!
September 1 at 9:42pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Nina, at one point I read a bunch of short stories by Tolstoy, but I don't remember any particulars.
September 1 at 9:42pm · Like
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Nina Rachele It's more like a novella, so you probably haven't read it.
September 1 at 9:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's not an alternate title for Kreutser Sonata, is it?
September 1 at 9:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley So about the length of that book about the dude who fell while decorating his house and died all over a couple hundred pages?
September 1 at 9:43pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I think you would remember it... anyway, it's a good read in addition to Anna Karenina.
September 1 at 9:44pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele No.
September 1 at 9:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Shakespeare alone >>> Russian literature
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Nina Rachele It is sometimes published on its own, like the death of ivan ilyich
September 1 at 9:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's the one I was thinking of, Is it a similar length of a read?
September 1 at 9:45pm · Like
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Nina Rachele this thread is the king of apples to oranges comparisons
September 1 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Yes, about the same length I think.
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Scott Weinberg Deacrates was good at math, but lost control of imagination, lost all integrity, lost the good and beautiful.
September 1 at 9:46pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Katie Duda is the Nickell companion to W&P worthwhile?
September 1 at 9:46pm · Like
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Joel HF I've read family happiness, why?
September 1 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Well, we had started debating about whether Anna was happy before her affair.
September 1 at 9:47pm · Like
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Nina Rachele And I thought that story kind of helped show what Tolstoy thought marriage was aiming at.
September 1 at 9:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger TNET> Russian literature and shorter
September 1 at 9:49pm · Unlike · 1
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John Henry Pakaluk I literally just joined facebook on account of this thread.
September 1 at 9:49pm · Unlike · 9
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Samantha Cohoe Bleh, I don't care what Tolsoy thought marriage was aiming at. I care about his art.
September 1 at 9:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey John Henry.
September 1 at 9:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I remember you.
September 1 at 9:50pm · Like
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John Henry Pakaluk "Samantha Cohoe ANNA KARENINA IS THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER WRITTEN". I'd like this a million times if my opinion mattered.
September 1 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Ok, that's your call.
September 1 at 9:51pm · Like
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Katie Duda Joel HF. I would say yes. But he's my advisor... In honesty, he knows the Tolstoy family backstory really well/ cultural context is his thing. I would say, if you saw "last station" and were intrigued, his book on the death of Tolstoy is excellent.
September 1 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Nina, I think Leo's views about marriage changed quite a bit during his career.
September 1 at 9:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Another way of saying that is that he went way off the deep end.
September 1 at 9:52pm · Like
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Katie Duda An excerpt, in case anyone's interested. http://m.us.wsj.com/.../SB1000142405274870357170457534085...
'The Death of Tolstoy'
Read an excerpt from the introduction of 'The Death of Tolstoy' by William Nickell.
ONLINE.WSJ.COM
September 1 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ^just added it to my reading list
September 1 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yet another famous historical character marred by a troubled relationship with his parents.
September 1 at 9:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry Nina, the reason I'm dismissive of Tolstoy's view about what he wrote is that I think he let his philosophy get in the way of his greatness as an artist, more so as time went on.
September 1 at 9:54pm · Unlike · 1
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Nina Rachele like Winston Churchill
September 1 at 9:55pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think what he intended to do with Anna is very different than when he actually did.
September 1 at 9:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sort of an Ion situation.
September 1 at 9:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley I always found it fascinating skimming the biographies of the various philosophers we read junior and senior year. two out of three enlightenment philosophers seemed to have gotten into a philosophy as a way of showing their parents (one, the other or both) what's what.
September 1 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele No, you're totally entitled to your opinion. I guess... I just really enjoyed what I have read of Tolstoy, and haven't done a ton of other readings on the subject other than a few essays.
September 1 at 9:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, arguably W&P's purpose is to illustrate his historical philosophy.
September 1 at 9:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^basic reading^
September 1 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia from a guy who says "Heidegger isn't saying anything"
September 1 at 9:58pm · Like
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Joel HF TBF, Leo didn't have to go far to go off the deep end. Not really the most stable of men, even when young.
September 1 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (That was a fun class: a three way war between those who wanted to ignore the historical stuff, those who wanted to ignore all that literature and those who wanted to read the literature through the philosophy).
September 1 at 9:58pm · Like
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Nina Rachele It is interesting how W&P, Demons, and Fathers and Sons all cover kind of the same basic theme
September 1 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Demons is the best of the three IMHO
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I would love to read a big essay talking about the political and generational themes in those works.
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, I actually liked alot of Heideggers's stuff on language.
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg War and Peace is longer than the Bible, but you can't apply dogma to it like you can Scripture. You can apply rules of poetics though, and these rules are consonant with logic.
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh and to respond to Scottegrine's bald lie above:
War and Peace has 587,287 words. The KJV Bible has 783,137
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Haha, Demons is my least favorite Dostoevsky book...
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Russian literature is a little overrated. I have read i think all of Dostoyevsky, not so much Tolstoy. But all is not well. Really think one has to roll back the clock a bit for great lit. Form and substance have diminished.
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my favorite
September 1 at 9:59pm · Like
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Joel HF John Henry--how did you even hear about this thread?
September 1 at 10:00pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I think it took me too long to read, it was seriously at least a year.
September 1 at 10:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg In Russian, War and Peace is longer.
September 1 at 10:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Though I guess I went from scorning facebook to commenting my ass off b/c of TNET.
September 1 at 10:00pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia ^still false Scott
September 1 at 10:00pm · Like
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Katie Duda I can't weigh in here in terms of quality arguments:
But to say any novel by Tolstoy or Dostoevsky is overblown is rather shortsighted. There are Tolstoy people and Dostoevsky people. I could talk about this at length.
One note on late Tolstoy. It's a huge conundrum... Death of Ivan ilych, hadji murat, kreutzer sonata (and Russians think resurrection is a beautiful novel) are all written late, along with "what is art" and some other essays of interesting ideas. But one thing that unites them is a struggling experiment to see where art fits in the world. It's also there in w&p with Helene/ Anna k with the portrait. It's done so much more precisely in his art than in his essays. But his essays shed light on those questions.
September 1 at 10:01pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg But both are close to half and million.
September 1 at 10:01pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ruplinger--you are this thread's resident hater now. Russian literature, fairy tales, Austen--all crap!
September 1 at 10:01pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I sense a Straussian esoteric strain to the 100% new Scott Weinberg
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like
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Katie Duda Also, as he was a big fan of Rousseau, his confessions which usually mark off "late Tolstoy" are interesting.
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia we're ignoring lesser Russian authors too, like Lermontov, Goncharov, Gogol, Checkov, Pushkin.....
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What criterion do you use to assess literary quality, Michael Beitia? Is it just if you like something?
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd hardly call Pushkin "lesser"
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Chekov without a c
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, how it fits in with my #gnosis
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I really liked Resurrection a lot as well, but not a ton of people have read it (the anti-sacrament stuff in there is a bit much though)
September 1 at 10:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I DID NOT SAY THAT.
September 1 at 10:03pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg is that gnosis thing the same for math?
September 1 at 10:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Thomas
September 1 at 10:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Pushkin isn't read at TAC .: lesser
September 1 at 10:04pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
September 1 at 10:04pm · Like
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Katie Duda Scott, it's not Chekov either...
September 1 at 10:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Pushkin was basically Russia's Shakespeare, from what I can tell of his reputation among Russians.
September 1 at 10:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Katie-- you are right, it was oversimplification to say that I'm simply not interested in what Tolstoy thought.
September 1 at 10:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I type too fast:
Чехов
September 1 at 10:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or Chekhov
September 1 at 10:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger They are overrated. Dostoyevsky was my favorite novelist for many years. The novel does not measure up too the older literature.
September 1 at 10:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I disagree, John
September 1 at 10:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Except all literature is a footnote of Homer
September 1 at 10:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley '"Come, that's good! How can you maintain such a paradox? If you are serious, that is. I cannot allow such a statement about the landed proprietors to pass unchallenged. Why, you are a landed proprietor yourself!" cried Prince S. hotly.
"I suppose you'll say there is nothing national about our literature either?" said Alexandra.
"Well, I am not a great authority on literary questions, but I certainly do hold that Russian literature is not Russian, except perhaps Lomonosoff, Pouschkin and Gogol."
"In the first place, that is a considerable admission, and in the second place, one of the above was a peasant, and the other two were both landed proprietors!"'
September 1 at 10:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg is literary gnosis the same as math gnosis>
September 1 at 10:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg chekhov with h sometimes too?
September 1 at 10:07pm · Like
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Katie Duda I was just rambling. Not criticizing. But I do recommend hadji Murat to anyone who loves Tolstoy. It's considered his final work.
September 1 at 10:07pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg is math gnosis counting, and literary gnosis spelling, mr beitia?
September 1 at 10:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, Katie does know Russian.....
September 1 at 10:07pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ruplinger--ah, but is Fyodor Dostoyevsky a secret gateway to magic cults?
September 1 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg joyce is brilliant in some respects, but he chooses the wrong things to imitate in some respects, like stem cell research chooses to view the wrong data sometimes.
September 1 at 10:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg it's tolstoyevsky
September 1 at 10:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott, sorry I don't follow your metagism there.
September 1 at 10:09pm · Unlike · 3
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Katie Duda True dat. X (Cyrillic)= ch (German of Bach) or transliterated in by the library of congress these days as "kh"
September 1 at 10:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I even really enjoyed Berdyaev's philosophy
September 1 at 10:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg hm, i wonder if there's some formal way we are viewing literature, or is it just counting and spelling gnosis?
September 1 at 10:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia thinking #gnosis
September 1 at 10:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am only asserting that the novel is an inferior form. But lis I am attracted to the best. It is hardly an outrageous assertion.
September 1 at 10:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg so is good literature thinking aboiut something like math is thinking. wow. cool
September 1 at 10:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it's all about the #gnosis
September 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg novel is only form. we have no tales of old to tell. only imagination.
September 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Katie Duda You want formal? Oh dear sir, be careful what you ask. #ultimategnosis
September 1 at 10:12pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg thanks, i get it now, i am sure
September 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you still owe me a copy of the dis.... Katie....
#superultimategnosis
September 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg formal gnosis yes
September 1 at 10:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg the novelist lays down a premise, on the imagination, and leads the reader towards the light of gnosis
September 1 at 10:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia gnosis is the leading
#superduperultimategnosis
September 1 at 10:14pm · Like
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Katie Duda I will send it in its most polished form in 2 weeks (the schedule was demolished this summer. Long story)
September 1 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg we have no tales of old to tell, like Virgil told of Rome. we know too much. we have met the gnosis and it is us. the gnosis must guide our imagination
September 1 at 10:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about over a drink?
September 1 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (this comment applies to both Katie and Scottegrine)
September 1 at 10:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I drink only Canadian whiskey.
September 1 at 10:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I hear that is good for gnosis.
September 1 at 10:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nothing good comes from Canada..... except hockey
September 1 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda Ok. To halt the rambling:
September 1 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And Gordon Lightfoot.
September 1 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
September 1 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg All great novelists have gnosis. This is the onl;y way.
September 1 at 10:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald gives life to Great Lakes.
September 1 at 10:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Virgil, Pope, Dante had gnosis and hockey.
September 1 at 10:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg or equivalent thereof.
September 1 at 10:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia thankfully none of them had Gordon Lightfoot
September 1 at 10:19pm · Like
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Katie Duda Let's consider the first line of Anna K, which we are all familiar:
"All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Everything was confusion in the Oblonskii household."
September 1 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Euclid and Cicero had gnosis.
September 1 at 10:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, first line of AK. Imaginative dialiectical beginning. Bam.
September 1 at 10:19pm · Like
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Katie Duda Even grammatically (the plural and singular distinction) that sentence expresses the crux of the dilemma Tolstoy sets out for himself.
September 1 at 10:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia well, Propaghandi are Canadian.....
September 1 at 10:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Imagination "Topics" kind of beginning. Plausibility. But imaginative. Could be real, but imaginative. Can crack the dialectic open with skillful imitation. gnosis
September 1 at 10:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg nothing is really canadian
September 1 at 10:21pm · Like
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Joel HF ^^^Proving your point about nothing good coming out of Canada besides hockey?
September 1 at 10:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg the moral plot and discovery of AK, like the dialectical reversal
September 1 at 10:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hey! Lefty-punk is a dark passion of mine
September 1 at 10:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't see the syllophor, Scottegrine....
September 1 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg hockey is a blood sport. too many good men and women hurt by hockey
September 1 at 10:23pm · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQlM59sDJVo
Ramones - We're A Happy Family
We're a happy family We're a happy family We're a happy family Me mom and daddy ( 2X ) Sitting here in Queens...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 1 at 10:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg There is none. It's real.
September 1 at 10:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nonono more political less poppy
September 1 at 10:23pm · Like
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Katie Duda Also in Russian, the words that begin sentence one and two are differentiated only by gender, so the move from the general to the singular is done so seamlessly.
September 1 at 10:23pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg the art is real, the plot is imagined.
September 1 at 10:24pm · Like
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Joel HF ^the above was merely to syllaphor the true esoteric gnosis of the beginning of Anna K.
September 1 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg yes. same form as gnosis.
September 1 at 10:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg ak is good beginning to pick
September 1 at 10:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Katie, go on, I am listening.
September 1 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, check yo' gnosis, that was a metagism
September 1 at 10:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Samantha, some of us are lucky enough to hear this in person
September 1 at 10:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg that looks awfully like the form of dialictic.
September 1 at 10:25pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha, quit apple polishing.
September 1 at 10:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How do you manage that?
September 1 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg the form of ak looks awfully like aristhomistic dialectic.
September 1 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF They both live in Chi-town.
September 1 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What is apple polishing?
September 1 at 10:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I get an intelligent opinion of Russian literature from the master.
September 1 at 10:27pm · Like
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Joel HF Sucking up to the teacher, obvs.
September 1 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But I'm so GOOD at it.
September 1 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe All my teachers loooove me.
September 1 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia stick with what you're good at
September 1 at 10:28pm · Like
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Joel HF And modest too!
September 1 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg some people are good at math, some at lit, some at both, but it's the same kind of thing.
September 1 at 10:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I have NEVER claimed that.
September 1 at 10:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg its just impossible to get fired up over math
September 1 at 10:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia WRONG
September 1 at 10:29pm · Like
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Joel HF Weinberg, Math and literature are still not the same thing.
September 1 at 10:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg i guess math appeals to some mens' passions
September 1 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Literature has rules
September 1 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Math is my first language.... I had to translate into English
September 1 at 10:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg math and lit are different in kind, but both have rules and the rules intersect. this is what i say
September 1 at 10:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg i believe that
September 1 at 10:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia math has no rules
September 1 at 10:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia positivist
September 1 at 10:30pm · Like
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Katie Duda The sentence is really rich. Slightly obscured in English is how the second part "in their own way" is somewhat circular in Russian (not logically, but grammatically) because there is a reflexive pronoun, while the first part is more open "each other" and indicates a social relationship.
September 1 at 10:30pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg i still find it hard toi believe that some men get fired up over their native tongue
September 1 at 10:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg the first sentence of ak is the same form as the premise A lays out in the Book of Topics.
September 1 at 10:31pm · Like
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Katie Duda If you consider the train of thought/experience of Levin, the sentence predicts that
September 1 at 10:32pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Levin is the logos, the pov is he not?
September 1 at 10:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys quit apple polishing. She could mash her head against the keyboard and you would "like" it.
September 1 at 10:32pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg But levin is a mere phantasm in the mind of tolstoy
September 1 at 10:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg yet he drives the logic
September 1 at 10:33pm · Like
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Joel HF But does the sentiment reflect the way things really are? Namely, are all happy families really alike?
September 1 at 10:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg yes, that's what Tolstoy says, and he's ther man
September 1 at 10:34pm · Like
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Katie Duda The implication is that happiness is found in the family without society.
September 1 at 10:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia It's not apple polishing, I've been asking her for a copy of her dissertation since before she finished it.
September 1 at 10:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and I liked that one too thbttttt
September 1 at 10:35pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg it's a universal maxim of an expert, a russian maxim, the major premise, and it is the same thing that aristotle lays out at the begoinning of topics, it goes from specific to imaginary from there
September 1 at 10:35pm · Like
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Katie Duda Or that society distracts one from family happiness
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg but the form is similar
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg like hockey and clubbing people. the form is similar
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Is there a "wtf" button on FB?
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia reminds me of the theme in the "Three Hermits" (or what I remember from translating it)
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF B/c wtf?
September 1 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg but let us not collapse into plot summary
September 1 at 10:38pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, anything but that.
September 1 at 10:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you can only cause the metagismic waveform collapse through ethymemetic syllophor
September 1 at 10:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Another musical tie in (I'm here all week!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM22N-yhfF4
The Mountain Goats - Family Happiness
The Mountain Goats - Family Happiness
YOUTUBE.COM
September 1 at 10:38pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg all happy families are faithful and chaste; all sad families are not. that's it
September 1 at 10:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I just heard that in the car today! (songs on the hard disk on random)
September 1 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg thanks joel, that causes everything to gel
September 1 at 10:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dang, does this thread ever need a wtf button. I would go back and wtf a solid quarter of everything.
September 1 at 10:39pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia and it brings up Canada..... ooh:
#fullcirclegnosis
September 1 at 10:40pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF I wrote my sorry-ass thesis to that song on repeat.
September 1 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia mine was "lonesome crowded west" album on repeat.....
September 1 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia also sorry-ass
September 1 at 10:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My thesis was brilliant, but under-appreciated because it was heresy.
September 1 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia that'll do it....
September 1 at 10:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah.
September 1 at 10:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Hey, we're back on the topic of theses. #fullcirclegnosis
September 1 at 10:43pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Tolstoyevsky: all happy families are faithful; all unhappy are not. It's all illumination via imagination from there, of Russian society, and the family. Tolstoy also seems to paint a very beautiful and detailed picture, and Joyce can do that too, but T had this moral perspective that informed his creations. What is the framework of such a novel. Without a framework, it falls like limp jello. It is the poetic demonstration.
September 1 at 10:43pm · Like
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Katie Duda While this now comes full circle, Anna was not leaving a "happy marriage". Karenin is an odious character and Tolstoy implies that Anna's avoidance of further pregnancy with him is a sign of it being unnatural and inherently decrepit. (As opposed to Dolly and Oblonskii who are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed constantly. Really Stiva was Tolstoy's alterego, if Levin is who he wished to be).
September 1 at 10:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ^^ am I crazy, or is Scott kind of right here?
September 1 at 10:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw
The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald
A tribute to the 29 men who died November 10, 1975, aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior. ----...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 1 at 10:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, you think Dolly and Stiva were always on the bring of being saved? Even though Stiva never actually repented or intended to be faithful to Dolly?
September 1 at 10:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott--aren't there unhappy families that are faithful? Or am I missing what you mean by the word "faithful"?
September 1 at 10:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg All I can say is Cicero's epicheireme pulled metaphor into the structure of the enthygism.
September 1 at 10:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh yeah, never mind. I was misreading him.
September 1 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Chastity and faithfullness are the cause of joy between friends and spouses, so all happy families have this, but none that do-not do.
September 1 at 10:51pm · Edited · Like
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Katie Duda "On the brink" is strong. They are perhaps the most tragic couple in the novel, because, Stiva knows what will bring happiness and peace to his family, but remains selfishly lecherous. But I think that their fecundity is an indication of their family being ordered to that happiness.
September 1 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Why does AK jump in front of a train?
September 1 at 10:52pm · Like
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Katie Duda As opposed to a horse drawn cart? Or a why does she kill herself?
September 1 at 10:53pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I've always thought the he believes all he needs to do to bring happiness and peace to his family is successfully hide his affairs.
September 1 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, no, don't talk to him. Talk to me.
September 1 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I meant jump as opposed to flacidly falling? She jumps, like a bird leaping off a rock. What brings her to jump? How do we get from the opening line to this? How does Euclid get from "equals added to equals" to the final proposition?
September 1 at 11:03pm · Like
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John Boyer Anything interesting going on?
September 1 at 11:05pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Charity is the form of all the virtues. Under its influence, CHASTITY appears as a school of the gift of the person. The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one's given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ's fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world. (CCC: 3, Sec. 2, Ch. 2 article 6)
September 1 at 11:10pm · Like
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Katie Duda I think that is part of it. (I was looking for my copy, but I boxed up a lot of non-dissertation books.) Stiva is not a "family" man, but he does resolve to try at one point (and continues to fail). He is intemperate through and through, but as he and Levin had once been friends, Stiva reads to me as a weak man with corrupted habits.
September 1 at 11:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg My read, and I am very ignorant on this subject, is that Anna herself is more obvious. Cause and effect, if you can call it that, are seen most clearly in her, and around her. These characters are just phantasms, making the same argument, building the same case about humanity and nature.
September 1 at 11:14pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg These characters are just phantasms, making the same argument, building the same case about humanity and human nature.
September 1 at 11:15pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg The tragedy. The catharsis.
September 1 at 11:16pm · Like
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Katie Duda The city is never a good place, and Stiva also refuses to leave the city for most of novel and Dolly is always attending to the needs of the family by taking them out of the city to reduce their expenditures. He refuses to really tend to his family. So in addition to the affairs, yes, he is not family oriented. The possibility really lies more with Dolly. He sees her as an excellent mother, he fails to see that as better than societal pleasures.
September 1 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg He does not strike me as being made happy with societal pleasures. A little tragic.
September 1 at 11:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Demonstrative of a bigger picture.
September 1 at 11:22pm · Like
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John Boyer Tequilla!
See Translation
September 1 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng John Boyer lets talk LW and Anscombe
September 1 at 11:30pm · Unlike · 3
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John Boyer I would but I'm drinking and reading Descartes for class tomorrow.
September 1 at 11:32pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I'm very impressed with her despite the fanboyism surrounding her...
September 1 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Yes
September 1 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I have read more Geach than anscombe.
September 1 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I LOVED her essay on causality.
September 1 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda NB. I did misspeak with this statement about the Oblonskii's "who are always on the brink of being saved and are able to be reunited and renewed constantly." Not so much constantly, but they have 8 children (a lot by the standard of the book), so there is implied potential renewal in the implied unions. (ok, I am done for tonight) Spokoi!
September 1 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Haven't read much of her stuff on ethics though.
September 1 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Ok I can't really either I'm doing the damn dishes I'm sure we can talk whenever here
September 1 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Yeah. I'll look forward to it!
September 1 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Let's include Philippa Foot in that discussion about Anscombe shall we? Philippa Foot and Iris Murdoch, two (sort-of) students of Anscombe.
September 2 at 12:13am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I feel like Foot is the one ethicist in the 20th-c. who gives virtue ethics a leg (or two) to stand on, just as British ethics is recovering from emotivism.
September 2 at 12:16am · Like
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John Boyer oh emotivism. What a crock of dung.
September 2 at 12:32am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^truer words never spoken!
September 2 at 12:36am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but the word is "shit"
September 2 at 12:36am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Emotivism has its merits in a given (very limited) context. Ayer is probably its best defender. Ultimately, it fails, of course, and there are several philosophers who help move things along. Foot is one of them.
September 2 at 12:43am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell But, you know, by all means, take up your pitchforks and torches and disregard an important part of the history of 20th-c. British ethics while you try to understand Anscombe, Murdoch, and Foot.
September 2 at 12:54am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante there's a British ethics after Green? who knew
September 2 at 12:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill Thank you, the discussions have advanced admirably; although, this thread may not end until Tim Furlan is found and provides #superduperultimategnosis. (Duda... what else are you writing about? I want to read ahead in order to follow.)
September 2 at 1:03am · Like
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Isak Benedict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSkp2gOIaDQ
Flight Of The Conchords - Issues (Think About It)
There are people on the streets gettin' diseases from...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 2 at 2:22am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I still want to talk about the issues.
September 2 at 2:23am · Like
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Isak Benedict Think about it.
September 2 at 2:24am · Like
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Pater Edmund Jane Austen is the greatest Anglophone novelist by a long shot.
September 2 at 4:25am · Unlike · 3
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Sam Rocha I love the issues!
September 2 at 4:28am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund One Straussian who seems to me to totally match the description given by Jeffrey Bond above is Eve Adler. Did you know her Jeffrey? Her book on Virgil is evil, evil, evil. She reads Virgil as proto-Straussian, who accepted Lucretius's view of things, but disseminated pious myths about the gods for the sake of the security of the empire. Nevertheless, I learned a lot reading her book.
September 2 at 5:54am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia doesn't it seem a bit fun to give "Straussian" readings to everything? I'm always looking for secret gnosis hidden in take out menus
September 2 at 7:22am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, why is that view evil?
September 2 at 7:54am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds probable to me.
September 2 at 7:54am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia IKEA instructions are clearly Straussian. The exoteric meaning is, for example, to build a bookshelf. . . but the esoteric meaning.... well let me just say it involves lingonberries.
September 2 at 8:35am · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger We are all Straussians. We just dont know it. We havent been correcly interpreted yet.
September 2 at 8:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson is a Straussian
September 2 at 8:46am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, I'm clearly Straussian... .I have my exoteric doctrine that I share with the world..... only the initiated few get the
#superduperextrasecretwithasideofmushroomsgnosis
September 2 at 8:49am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Samantha I assume you're counter-trolling me because of the Iran thing, but see the discussion of Virgil above (around comment 9,970).
September 2 at 9:06am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Any of you super smart eggheads have any recommendations for a decent primer/overview of mediaeval Arabic philosophy? JA Escalante; Joshua Kenz; Jeffrey Bond; Edward Langley; Caleb Cohoe.
September 2 at 9:08am · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ^recommendation request seconded from over here
September 2 at 9:28am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I've been listening to Peter Adamson's history of philosophy podcasts on this era, which are very good, and give a good idea of the range of thought and the intellectual context.
September 2 at 9:32am · Like · 4
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Caleb Cohoe Here's the series' website, which also has bibliographic resources: http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/islamic-world
Philosophy in the Islamic World | History of Philosophy without any gaps
In these episodes Peter examines the thought of Muslim,...
HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET
September 2 at 9:32am · Like · 7
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Caleb Cohoe The Hackett anthology has some of the key texts with helpful introductions: http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Arabic.../dp/0872208710
Classical Arabic Philosophy: An Anthology of Sources
This volume introduces the major classical Arabic...
AMAZON.COM
September 2 at 9:33am · Like · 6
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Joel HF Thank you so much, Caleb!
September 2 at 9:36am · Like
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Nina Rachele yes, thank you!
September 2 at 9:39am · Like
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Joel HF How are Peter Adamson's podcasts on other eras? Caleb Cohoe
September 2 at 9:40am · Like
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Joel HF Also, if we can get the right folks interested, John Brungardt is planning on initiating a group on facebook to discuss Duane Berquist's lectures on Aristotle's Logic. Some of you may be interested, and all of you are welcome. Pater Edmund; Caleb Cohoe; JA Escalante; Samantha Cohoe; Joshua Kenz; Edward Langley; Jeffrey Bond.
September 2 at 9:47am · Like · 4
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Joel HF To be clear, the "all" includes those I forgot to tag.
September 2 at 9:48am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Guys, I'm about to start Lingua Latina with my students. I feel like Mr. Clark. It's very exciting.
September 2 at 9:51am · Like · 8
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Joel HF I felt like Mr. Clark once. I took two ibuprofen and lay down in a dark room until it passed. Don’t worry, I’m fine now.
September 2 at 9:54am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia does D-Berq get into the secret Aristotelian doctrine?
September 2 at 9:57am · Like · 2
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Joel HF He's the keeper of the #gnosis.
September 2 at 9:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel. You did it. You ensnared Caleb.
September 2 at 9:58am · Like · 2
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Caleb Cohoe Joel, the ancient podcasts are very good as well (so far, I've listened to all of the ancient ones and about a dozen of the medieval ones)
September 2 at 9:59am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Oliver Leaman is good for intro to Islamic philosophy; also, Majid Fakhry. And the HPWG link Caleb posted is also good
September 2 at 10:00am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: I'd suggest some of the Neoplatonist episodes from Adamson's podcast (anything on Plotinus, for example). Tim Furlan - didn't you work with him?
September 2 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the thing is you have to be careful because Western-influenced histories of Islamic philosophy are working from a sort of Whig narrative, as it were, and tend to not know what to do with Sufism and Iluminationism, but those are central for Muslim sapiential tradition
September 2 at 10:03am · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig ^ I think Adamson's done a rather decent job on covering those other parts of Islamic tradition with some of his more recent podcasts. That said, I've got a whole lot to catch up on.
September 2 at 10:04am · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Matthew, I'll be having him as my PhD supervisor over the next few years.
September 2 at 10:04am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it's ok. Books are better
September 2 at 10:04am · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig Which ones would you say, JA?
September 2 at 10:05am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante any history of Islamic philosophy which doesn't give a lot of attention to Mulla Sadra and Ahmad Sirhindi is giving a skewed picture
September 2 at 10:05am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jon, I mean monographs and articles....too long a list for here I think
September 2 at 10:06am · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig What do you think of Adamson's book list on his three episodes on Mulla Sadra?
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-existence
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-motion
http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/mulla-sadra-rizvi
186 - To Be, Continued: Mullā Ṣadrā on Existence | History of Philosophy without...
HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET
September 2 at 10:07am · Like
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Scott Weinberg How did the Thread get from Tolstoy to Islamic philosophy?
September 2 at 10:12am · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Adamson is good but misses or underplays some of the real lines of central tradition, in my opinion. But I'm glad for his work
September 2 at 10:12am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jon I think Adamson is ok not great on Mulla Sadra but there's no harm in starting with that
September 2 at 10:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia do not question TNET it questions you
September 2 at 10:14am · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Tim, a lot of the work already has been done; it's just buried in 19th and early 20th c British works no one ever reads
September 2 at 10:15am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am not worthy.
September 2 at 10:16am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Tim for instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_S._Seale
But I've found astonishing little gems of historical and philosophical insight in the passing remarks of English travel writers who were otherwise talking about the weather in Yemen. And there are many learned monographs which no one reads
Morris S. Seale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Morris Sigel Seale (14 July 1896 – 29 August 1993) was an Arab scholar and Theologist who wrote about both Christian and Muslim traditions and explored extensively the links between the two religions. He wrote three influential books and contributed numerous articles to Theological journals includin…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 2 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It's also fun to study the history of the Eastern Churches of Byzantium on the Arab world.
September 2 at 10:28am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Pere Georges Anawati is worth reading too
September 2 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I remember the good old days in Mosul. Today, it's hard to find even an icon that has not been decapitated, let alone a real Christian.
September 2 at 10:34am · Like
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Isak Benedict Phoenix hosted a weeping icon this weekend!
September 2 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Weeping for al those false private revelations, no doubt.
September 2 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia probably weeping for lack of magisterial teaching
September 2 at 11:01am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia sorry, I really have nothing to add to the Islamic philosophy discussion, but if I don't make a smart-ass comment then TNET abandons me...
September 2 at 11:12am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Going back to my TAC TNET comments, to put the comment in a nutshell:
It's a bit cold to inculcate impressionable young minds with the notion that the highest and best thing they can do short of the religious life is to become a TAC tutor, and then graduate them into the world we live in and turn one's back - exonerating oneself with the idea that one has no institutional relation to them or responsibility for what they do after in virtually any practical respect.
Is that a bit of an exaggeration? Maybe. But functionally, that seems somewhat true.
September 2 at 11:18am · Like · 9
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Isak Benedict TNET never truly abandons you - it just departs now and then to let you walk in its ways on your own for a while.
September 2 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia more like slither on your belly, Isak
September 2 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict or hang from the cave ceiling upside down...
September 2 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson, plus the whole "everybody wants a liberal arts degree" line of BS they feed to everyone coming in. (esp. true for those of us who came in knowing nobody there)
September 2 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante totally agree with Peterson and Beitia here
September 2 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (like you had a choice, JAson)
September 2 at 11:23am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante are you committing microaggressions against me as a Calvinist hyphen American with not so subtle jokes about free will
September 2 at 11:25am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, you can indeed go places straight out of undergrad with a liberal arts degree, but it depends on the college...
September 2 at 11:25am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but I agreed with these remarks before I left TAC. They were part of why I left
September 2 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Franklin Salazar --
Matthew J. Peterson,
Perhaps times changed, but I came in with it well understood that the school did not intend to help their students towards a career except insofar as some careers have the same end as a TAC education.
Technical training was what graduate school was for.
September 2 at 11:27am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think if you give each graduate a copy of the CCC and throw them out in the world, they'll be ok, and the college will have fulfilled its obligation.
September 2 at 11:27am · Like
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Katie Duda I think TAC set me up for the biggest grad school let down... Which is petty in comparison, but the isolationist (?) attitude has grown more appalling to me in recent years (not so much as it has gotten worse, but I have noticed something pernicious in it)
September 2 at 11:28am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg And TNET... TNET is part of the deposit of the Faith.
September 2 at 11:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia Actually JAson, I hadn't thought of it that way. Since we agree so much on CST I just usually think of you as a Catholic......
September 2 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante small c at least
September 2 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson I think the solution is with the alumni, not TAC itself. Those who have gone before, e.g., and gotten tenure need to help those who come after. It isn't enough to say TAC tutors don't publish, waaah! Those in a position out in academia to actually help students should do so directly. After all, simply being a sincere Thomist is enough to have one's name blackballed at many places, regardless of what we or TAC itself does. Mutatis mutandis, this also applies to other professions.
September 2 at 11:48am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Which is largely to say, keep on doing what you're doing, Matthew J. Peterson.
September 2 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me, and forgive me if I am way out of line, the college lays down some strong suppositions about knowledge and academia, and I have never been able to connect the dots, even in a perfect world... but, alas, I lack gnosis.
September 2 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante part of the problem when I was there was that grad programs in philosophy and theology were dismissed by the tutors as being basically useless except to get a diploma with which one could then maybe reach a mind or two with the light of Laval in some future career
September 2 at 11:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I found out about DSPT quite randomly, because Father Bart OP had handed a brochure to Sean White and I saw it on White's desk. When I called DSPT they said, we are knee deep in scholastics and late antiquity plus we talk to the outside world, and I said Hallelujah here I come
September 2 at 11:34am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia thanks for the heads up
September 2 at 11:35am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Does the college not propose that modern academia, both secular and Catholic, has gone hell in a hand-basket, because of false notions of academic freedom (and a few other things), then lays down a remedy to pull it all back together? Is that a fair description? But besides it being a great place to be at, full of the most interesting and amazing people you would ever meet, it is not immediately obvious how the dots have all been connected, in the supposition and proposal.
September 2 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia overall the school seems a bit myopic about its alumni
September 2 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^^agree with Scott
September 2 at 11:55am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF - I tire of it, but I try to keep on. It feels trying like helping those who can't help themselves, and are resistant, and the job is thankless to boot. I don't want to apply to teach at any of the small Catholic schools or try to help their grads anymore, but I still can't but help try to help grads.
But I've been for a strong alumni thing for a long time. Now I don't have time.
September 2 at 11:41am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott Weinberg : the college and others exaggerate the downsides of modern academic life.
A lot of how they perceive what is "out there" is just wrong.
September 2 at 11:41am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I am the last one who should be speaking on this, I was the stupidest person ever admitted into TAC, I failed out twice. I do not think anyone has ever done that before. (I just could not get passionate about math. Original sin impacts people in different ways. That was my Achilles heel.)
September 2 at 11:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia myopia
September 2 at 11:41am · Like
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Scott Weinberg But what does all the math have to do with restoring the supposition and solution? I mean ALL the math. I think there is something there.
September 2 at 11:43am · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng I was working on a big honking post but deo gratias I deleted it on accident.
September 2 at 11:44am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Matthew J. Peterson: things were pretty bad in academia and Church colleges in the 60s and 70s.
September 2 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg adrw, i am sure it was fantastic.
September 2 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg pretty bad is an understatement.
September 2 at 11:45am · Like
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Katie Duda Peterson, have you been asked to give a lecture in an academic capacity? (I ask because you're califonia-local, right? an alum, etc..) And in many ways a simple way to support alums, and at the same time expose students to people with the education who don't come back to the institution... (Maybe should be extended to other professions as well).
September 2 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Hahaha
September 2 at 11:46am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson No.
September 2 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg myopia means short sightedness, a little over-focused, over-reacting a bit to draw in focus too much?
September 2 at 11:46am · Like
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Isak Benedict It's as plain as the gnosis on your face.
September 2 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson But, if you'll allow me some petulance, all I do is teach at a top ten regional U and a top ten national liberal arts college - and hobnob and consult politically in LA especially - and, God FORBID, try to get Charles De Koninck's work more attention and prominence and spur the discussion and influence of Laval.
September 2 at 11:48am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson So why reach out to someone like me?!?
September 2 at 11:49am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I mostly agree with you on this matter, Matthew J. Peterson. Although, I struggle to articulate the problem clearly. I am inclined to think your wording is somewhat exaggerated.
September 2 at 11:50am · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and science, or is it more between two types of contemporary Thomism?
September 2 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I probably exaggerate. Our hates arise out of our deeper loves.
September 2 at 11:51am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson De Koninck to me is the "road not taken" by much of modern Thomism.
September 2 at 11:52am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia like gainful employment?
September 2 at 11:53am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman John Brungardt's dissertation is seeking to change that!
September 2 at 11:53am · Like
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Katie Duda That I see as pernicious.. Joe Zepeda? Have you? (Who are other localish academic alums...?) Sorry drawing some blanks.
September 2 at 11:56am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson To be fair, they are no doubt institutionally overwhelmed with survival, etc. But I am voicing what many grads think, many if which want a bit more love from alma mater.
September 2 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Scott I thought the math was disproportionate too, and was totally uninterested in it the way it was presented
September 2 at 11:56am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But it will get worse before it gets better. Mark my words.
September 2 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The emphasis on math got me my first job.
September 2 at 11:56am · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante this is an excellent question from Scott: "is De Koninck some kind of missing link between the Middle Ages and modern academia and science, or is it more between two types of contemporary Thomism?" The usual TAC answer is the former of course, which is partially true, but not as true as they think it is
September 2 at 11:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, the math emphasis (on paper) makes the degree from TAC seem more serious.
September 2 at 11:57am · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and I have been a close reader of De Koninck for a long long time as Matthew can attest
September 2 at 11:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman JA Escalante, I thought it was a good question as well. I don't quite know how to answer it.
September 2 at 11:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Both?
September 2 at 11:58am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why might someone walk the road of DeKoninck?
September 2 at 11:58am · Like
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Michael Beitia except, Daniel, the math emphasis isn't in the BA Liberal Arts....
September 2 at 11:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg No Catholic college is under obligation to solve the world's academic problems. It just has an obligation to properly inform its students so they are educated in such a way as to support their beatitude.
September 2 at 12:00pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Re being a reader of De Koninck: his doctrine of prudence, his tactile epistemology, his choice of the essay rather than the manual in pedagogy, his wide and very openminded reading
September 2 at 12:00pm · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF Anyone who claims that there is too much math at TAC should refrain from comment on the curriculum.
September 2 at 12:00pm · Unlike · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante there is too much math, and its often stupidly taught
September 2 at 12:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Well, I'll agree with the latter, but not enough (good) math
September 2 at 12:01pm · Unlike · 3
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Katie Duda In my experience, stupid questions were entertained for way too long, while people who didn't have a solid foundation in basic algebra wasted my *ahem precious time*
September 2 at 12:02pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia can I like that aleph-null times?
September 2 at 12:03pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg There's not enough good math, there's too much fierce, bad, wicked math, and its students wouldn't know how to pour water out of an enthymeme if it had instructions written on the heel.
September 2 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF As to the latter, there are better and worse tutors, no doubt. As to the former, nonsense. In fact, the math classes are philosophy of math, more than math itself, and the program wouldn't work without them.
September 2 at 12:03pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti "Too much math at TAC" = home school problems
September 2 at 12:03pm · Unlike · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I do wish TAC were serious about rhetoric. It really isn't
September 2 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm sorry but most people don't have the wherewithal to drag themselves through Descartes without serious guidance.
September 2 at 12:04pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman My math exposure at TAC opened my eyes. I never understood math until after Junior year.
September 2 at 1:04pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Then I found out that I am good at math.
September 2 at 12:04pm · Like
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Joel HF This may be controversial, but TAC should tighten the math reqs for admission. Step one, no more rolling admission.
September 2 at 12:05pm · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante i got more philosophy of math in one month I devoted to it in Berkeley than out of two years at TAC, by far
September 2 at 12:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, what's the eye-opener of math? In English please!
September 2 at 12:05pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Here is what high level undergraduate math actually looks like: http://www.thecrimson.com/.../6/math-55-rite-of-passage-for/
Math 55: Rite of Passage for Dept.'s Elite Intimidates Many |News | The Harvard...
THECRIMSON.COM
September 2 at 12:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I remember taking 2 *whole* lab classes senior year just to demonstrate the Lorenz transformations algebraically for the section. REally@!!?
September 2 at 12:06pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Michael Beitia, Descartes simply requires the understanding that all he is doing (at least in the bits we read) is super basic algebra. He isn't hard, just obscure.
September 2 at 12:07pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I don't speak English, Perescott..... I only speak in gnosis and math
September 2 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What is the math illumination, the math revelation, the math epiphany? And does this relate in any way to solving the problem of modern academia?
September 2 at 12:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I know, but did you sit through those classes? WTF!?
September 2 at 12:08pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the TAC math curriculum as (often) taught involves a lot of mystification in order to create the sense that something really big is going on, but it often isn't. The real lack though is rhetoric- TAC is an almost complete fail in that regard
September 2 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia okay Joel, maybe TAC students can't drag themselves through it
September 2 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg OK, say it in math then, and I will apply my gnosis. I am on a 30-day trial subscription.
September 2 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Aaron, and the fact that Harvard has more advanced math than a small great books/liberal arts school adds what exactly?
September 2 at 12:11pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia at work, sorry
September 2 at 12:09pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Joel, nothing.
September 2 at 12:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If math is the secret code, then it has to be related to emotion and imagination, because we are people, and these are separate studies within the liberal arts. Math can be used like a weapon, or a tool.
September 2 at 12:14pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Scott have you read Vico's Six Inaugural Orations? If not, then you should, given what you've just said
September 2 at 12:14pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Tighten the math reqs for admission would immediately produce better classes. And please, more rhetoric? The sad thing is, the truly wasted courses at TAC are the language courses. By teaching neither linguistics, nor Latin, nor philosophical grammar, the result is no one learns anything, and those that knew Latin merely forget it.
September 2 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Joel, say more about the need for linguistics. That is a really interesting point.
September 2 at 12:16pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante no, seriously, it needs more rhetoric. Rhetoric is the crux of the humanities. And define "linguistics"
September 2 at 12:16pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti My sister was an Italian major in college, and at least half of her major was linguistics.
September 2 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante do you mean philology? or do you mean structural linguistics?
September 2 at 12:17pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante define it
September 2 at 12:17pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante who are you talking about? Saussure? Benveniste?Jakobson?
September 2 at 12:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I was surprised that Augustine is not read as a rhetorical master, but a doctrinal one. So, the argument is missed. I was surprised that the 20th encyclicals were read as doctrinal supplements, not as rhetorical works. I was surprised doctrine as doctrine is lacking. Seems to make it more difficult and gnostic than necessary.
September 2 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- not if you had Mark Clark for Latin!
September 2 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yay Latin!
September 2 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rhetoric is even more basically about invention than persuasion, and if you'd dont grasp that, you don't grasp rhetoric or its immense importance. TAC most definitely doesn't grasp it; it views rhetoric as a kind of flowery con artist move
September 2 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Imma go back to Katie Duda's comment about Stiva and Dolly. I think you're right that all the hope for their marriage comes from Dolly. Stiva, I think, is charming but worthless. He seems to think it is actually impossible for him to live any other life but the profligate, immoral one he leads. Dolly is heroic in her effort on behalf of her family, but she's doing it alone.
September 2 at 12:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I was not counter-trolling you Pater Edmund. I truly think that sounds like a reasonable view, but I am not going to go back to comment number 9000 or whatever to see what you argued back then, so I understand if you wish to ignore me. : )
September 2 at 12:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe OK, I'm going to work now.
September 2 at 12:28pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Well, I decided to post my honking big counterpoint. Here goes: I said it before, the tutors on the whole have a big variety of opinions on academia, and IMO they come off as negative about academia most of all specifically in the situation of talking about it to curious unwashed students, many of whom they correctly see as probably not suited for that kind of life, but they don't realllly want to come out and say it. Fact: All walks and abilities of students are admitted to the college, and for most of them they would be happier elsewhere than academia. The world is a big place. As insular as TAC is, I really think that most the facility is liberally educated and have some perspective.
The tutors give the impression that they are the best thing completely on accident because they LOVE their life and they have a passion for TAC. Never has a tutor said to me the likes of "this is the best and only etc." In fact, most lamented there wasn't a grad school probably thinking they would love to teach advanced stuff etc.
Like I said before, when I doubled down and was serious about applying to doctoral studies and entering into the ivory tower, I did have a number of tutors sit down with me and help in a number of ways, including putting me in touch with people, as best as they could. I add that last proviso, because it's also true that TAC's tutors are *not* the best academics and pretty much lack the top-tier experience. Again, we've discussed a tutor or two who may be the exception to this, but I won't talk individuals.
As per the suggestion that the school thinks the academic well has been poisoned and should be mostly avoided (a separate issue), at best in my experience that was the opinion held privately by a few, and with regard to certain specific areas in the humanities/theology. It was something that the leadership was trying to counterbalance as best they could. The more common viewpoint is that academia has a lot of pitfalls (it does) and that it isn't for everyone (also true).
Also, if we exercise a little common sense and say, hey, TAC is not really at all a top tier school as far as its position in academia and it's admins and faculty are not really from that arena, I think all this makes some more sense, and is in fact humbling.
Yes, there are improvements that could be made but they are normal improvements. A bright and motivated student can overcome. We've seen it happen, we've got successful academics such as Matthew J. Peterson out there, and it will continue to improve, especially if us alums don't harbor resentment (of any kind, talk about a poison!) and unabashedly reach out to students who ask for our help. I had a bunch of successful TAC academics never get back to me when I got in touch with them, but let's not talk about that. We can be part of the problem, or part of the solution!
September 2 at 12:29pm · Like · 8
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--I did have Clark for Sophomore Latin.
September 2 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Then what are you complaining about?
September 2 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Andrw Lng, fair enough
September 2 at 12:31pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Joel HF JA Escalante--I meant Structural linguistics, but that wasn't the point. The point was they could try to teach any of those things, but by combining them all they fall between the stools. I had a freshman section spend a whole class arguing over whether "Ego" and "me" (I think it was those words but it could have been "amicus" and "amico" or something else) were the same word but different cases or different words entirely.
September 2 at 12:34pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ah ok, agreed about falling between the stools
September 2 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And if one is wasting time like that, how is one going to learn the latin language at the same time? And if one is going to do linguistics, shouldn't the foreign language be studied separately (and far more rigorously).
September 2 at 1:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, never mind. I know what you are complaining about and agree with your complaint.
September 2 at 12:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--I think Clark expected that the students would read along with him and simply learn the language. After all, that's how he learns languages. My experience was, I already had Latin so could read along, and everyone who didn't sat there terrified he'd call on them. A very few went out of their way to learn the language outside class and actually learned Latin at TAC.
September 2 at 1:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Clark's method, in short, needs to be more intensive for it to really work. And dear me, Martin of Denmark. <slams head on desk>
September 2 at 12:37pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I know. Clark was a great tutor if you were good at Latin. Otherwise, no.
September 2 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I pretty much sucked at Latin coming in with zero experience and bad study habits. Blame myself 100%, sucks to suck.
September 2 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well Wheelock doesnt help
September 2 at 12:38pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Joel, Seems to me they could do comparative Indo-European linguistics just to give some context. That would include the basics of morphology, phonology, etc. I taught ninth grade Latin at St Monica Academy, and I tried to add in some of that stuff to keep it interesting. It seemed to help even at that level. The kids loved it.
September 2 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think they finally ditched the Wheelock at least.
September 2 at 12:40pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^yes that could and should be done
September 2 at 12:40pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh thank God I hope that's true
September 2 at 12:40pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron, did you have any particular material that you used?
September 2 at 12:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Guys, this is relevant to my work. Thus, I am working! While on TNET!
September 2 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Anthony Burgess' "Lanuage Made Plain" would work in that regard, mostly
September 2 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I would say, though, that problem with Latin at TAC is endemic to foreign language requirements in the academy throughout. Is it to study the language or is it to learn about language? How does one do either when it is required that students take a year or a semester of any foreign language?
September 2 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha: I have an old textbook about Indo-European linguistics, and , believe it or not, I have a text from one of those Latin immersion courses that they do in graduate Classics departments that I used to great effect. It had a bunch of cool linguistics stuff in it. Here is the Indo text: https://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/z.172/main
John Benjamins Publishing Company
BENJAMINS.COM
September 2 at 12:43pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Made_Plain
Language Made Plain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Language Made Plain by Anthony Burgess is a brief...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 2 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks!
September 2 at 12:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Beekes is good. So is Benveniste
September 2 at 12:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that's Clockwork Orange Burgess, btw
September 2 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe GASP. SO MUCH MONEY
September 2 at 12:45pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Adrw Lng: fair points. But I do think direct conversation about points of awkwardness is a good thing, and is too often avoided on that campus. But fair enough.
September 2 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I can get from SLU, though
September 2 at 12:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or I suppose I could get the paperback.
September 2 at 12:45pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha: Here is the Latin intensive text. IMO, the best Latin textbook out there. http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Intensive-Floyd.../dp/0520031830
Latin: An Intensive Course
This is a comprehensive introduction to Latin forms and syntax, designed to train the student in reading ancient...
AMAZON.COM
September 2 at 12:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Catholic Burgess!
September 2 at 12:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante monarchist Burgess.
September 2 at 12:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And until I have a tenure track appointment, calling me a "successful academic" is probably an abuse of language. Hah.
September 2 at 12:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I have that one (somewhere). It is good.
September 2 at 12:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Exquisite Burgess.
September 2 at 12:47pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and for Latin, really, TAC should just man up and own medieval Latin instead of hankering after Ciceronian. Rosenstock's Magna Carta Latina is a great way to start
September 2 at 12:47pm · Like · 4
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Katie Duda Peterson, you should market the thread as a MOOC
September 2 at 12:48pm · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson Haha
September 2 at 12:48pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Katie Duda wins TNET for today
September 2 at 12:48pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti This thread is actually going to BECOME a TAC thesis. And it will be the best one ever written.
September 2 at 12:49pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Charge people to look at the Thread.
September 2 at 12:49pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Thread Healings?
September 2 at 12:49pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Thread peep show.
September 2 at 12:49pm · Like · 6
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Thread burlesque.
September 2 at 12:49pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson In a world of substandard MOOCs, one Thread...
September 2 at 12:51pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti "Comments 8216-9656: A Post Structural Examination Of How Failed Intellectuals Rationalize Their Jobs in Retail."
September 2 at 12:51pm · Like · 12
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Daniel Stoddart This thread is still going? I went away for the holiday, come back, and this is still going yard.
September 2 at 12:51pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Thread Bingo Thursdays.
September 2 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict “Sometimes the fluffy bunny of incredulity zooms around the bend so rapidly that the greyhound of language is left, agog, in the starting cage.”
September 2 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg If you read TACs founding document, specifically the section on Academic freedom, you see that the college seems to define modern academia as a "tyranny" because it rejects religion and truth:
"It is clear that they [American Association of University Professors] hold religious doctrine to be a restriction on academic freedom, for later in the same statement, the conditions upon which a religious school insists when it appoints a teacher are described as “institutional limitations on his academic freedom.”
It is also strongly suggestive that modern academia is tyrannical:
"Indeed, it would seem that the government of any institution by rules which prescind (or pretend to prescind) from all differences of belief, or which negate in principle the possibility of governing by the truth, must of necessity be tyrannical."
September 2 at 12:54pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg This is a harsh statement. I am not saying it is a false statement, though. I asked one of the Founders once if they would ever amend the Charter, and he said no because it is like the Constitution. But even the US Constitution can be amended.
September 2 at 12:56pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I'm starting a support group for Thread Voyeurs Anonymous.
September 2 at 12:57pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg You all knew what you signed up for. I obviously didn't, because I am ignorant. I am not asking anyone to shy away from this bold proposal. In honesty, I disagree with its tone and some of its content I see as mistaken. But in Charity I invite its defense. Dissent is the blood of freedom.
September 2 at 12:59pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF JA Escalante--this book? https://wipfandstock.com/.../Magna_Carta_Latina_The...
Wipf and Stock Publishers
Wipf and Stock publishes new works in theology, biblical studies, church history, philosophy and related...
WIPFANDSTOCK.COM|BY EMERGE INTERACTIVE, INC.
September 2 at 12:59pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Katie Duda--good point about languages in academia generally.
September 2 at 1:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not think the Catholic Church has ever taught or suggested that modern academia is a tyranny. That seems like a statement of reactionaries. And our goal should be to restore, not tear down, so the proposal should be more focused on truth; truth always restores, even if tenure is martyred.
September 2 at 1:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Or do not defend it. Just know what it is. It is a proposal from highly intelligent philosophers whose tenure was sacrificed for truth. You are in good company! But truth will overcome. It always has, in age after age. TAC students are practically the only ones asking the questions, and not afraid of how they approach the world or how they present the questions.
September 2 at 1:10pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Stoddart As soon as I saw that Rosenstock-Huessy thumbnail in the thread, I knew that JA Escalante had already gotten into book recommendation territory
September 2 at 1:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel, yes, that's the book
September 2 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Aaron Gigliotti--I know you probably said somewhere lost in the early part of the thread, but where did you go to college?
September 2 at 1:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, apparently Burgess's "A Mouthful of Air" incorporates almost all of "Language Made Plain" into its first half.
September 2 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is TAC supposed to fix academia, or just educate students properly? I think it should do both. You can't do one without the other. To do either, you need to be able to explain what you do. I think most would disagree with the college, because it does not provide a full range of solutions. It does not address the whole person, just a very small part of the person, so the graduate may find it difficult to intuit the challenges they are facing in modern academia which are largely emotional, not mathematical.
September 2 at 1:22pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF And is cheaper.
September 2 at 1:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Isak, we don't have thread healings, we have holistic thread gnostic crystal healings
September 2 at 1:22pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Too many TAC grads stand in cold-hearted antipathy against academia, cycicism, as opposed to sympathy. Most everyone in modern academia is in pain. Where is the human response? Where is the human answer? This is no less academic than mathematics.
September 2 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Stoddart "Most everyone in modern academia is in pain." Sounds like it's time to end the suffering.
September 2 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg To put them out of their suffering? To nuke them? Or to address the causes of the ignorance with the full range of scholastic and scientific appeals? Or to just state "they are wrong" / "they are tyrants" and nuke them; ie. wish evil upon them?
September 2 at 1:30pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF, that would be great re: Duane Berquist. I like his lectures, especially the analogy one. Greatly demystifies the sense one gets from certain people at TAC about that doctrine.
September 2 at 1:28pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Analogy is a TAC strong suit/trump card,
September 2 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg gnostic meaning please
September 2 at 1:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I fully confess to The Thread: I am hard on my alma mater because I love it and I think it is so money and the students and tutors don't even know it. And I probably want more from it than it is possible for it to give.
September 2 at 1:32pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley The best Latin course:
lingualatina.dk/wp/
Lingua Latina
Per Se Illustrata
LINGUALATINA.DK
September 2 at 1:33pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia Do you love it like a fancy meal, perfect in every way, but now you have passed it and it is flushed?
September 2 at 1:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, although analogy is presented as a mysterious doctrine in the world at large anyways.
September 2 at 1:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I had a year long 'course' on analogy with John Nieto. That was amazing.
September 2 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig I second Kenz, Joel HF, re. Duane Berquist.
September 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It was not mystifying.
September 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall At what point does a Thread reach critical mass, and if it does, what will the blast radius be?
September 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg 2nd American journalist just beheaded by ISIS. Why is our prezzie not doing anything about it.
September 2 at 1:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and the reason I said 'course' because it was Friday afternoons on the porch at St. Bernards and we smoked cigars.
September 2 at 1:34pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Edward, did you miss when I announced I was starting Lingua Latina with my students for the first time today? (It went super well, btw)
September 2 at 1:35pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I was so jealous of that Daniel, you guys were the worst with your excluding of women.
September 2 at 1:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^I felt badly
September 2 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF This course actually infuriated a few people in our class, Daniel!
September 2 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig Damn it Facebook---why the hell do they make navigating these threads so effing impossible...
September 2 at 1:36pm · Like
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Joel HF This thread moves too fast for my old fingers.
September 2 at 1:36pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Franklin Salazar --
For what it's worth, I could not of asked for more from TAC.
In business, i.e. architecture, it's the glue that binds my muse with experience both cultural experience as well as practical experience out in the field.
And likewise in everyday life.
September 2 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Looking back, Samantha, I realize that had I mentioned the fact that there were interested women, John almost certainly would have met somewhere where we all could be.
September 2 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^highly doubtful^^
September 2 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Alright, I'll try to contact John Brungardt and maybe we can start it this weekend (?). I know he is super busy, and may not be able to be that involved. If need be I'll start the discussion--though by no means am I qualified to lead it in any way.
September 2 at 1:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Or is modern academia something else? What is the connection?
September 2 at 1:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha, I don't think I missed that, although I might have missed the "Lingua Latina" part.
September 2 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, what are you starting?
September 2 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Yeah, Daniel Lendman, I'm not sure that is true, w/r/t location of the Analogy course.
September 2 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I concur with you, Edward.
September 2 at 1:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hey, before starting a billion and one groups for things, would people be interested in a separate forum for philosophical discussions on TAC-related topics?
September 2 at 1:39pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman, thought I tagged you in the initial post. A facebook discussion group of Duane Berquist's lectures on Aristotle's logic.
September 2 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am in!
September 2 at 1:40pm · Like
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Joel HF Here is the link to Berquist's lectures: https://archive.org/details/berquistphilosophylogic
Introduction to Philosophy and Logic : Duane H. Berquist, PhD : Free Download...
Save
ARCHIVE.ORG
September 2 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have already been working through them.
September 2 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Masterful stuff.
September 2 at 1:40pm · Like
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Joel HF As have I, but I'm hoping peer pressure will make me more motivated to go through them quickly.
September 2 at 1:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would only recommend this: The discussion should be on Aristotle's logic, using Berquist's insights as our guide.
September 2 at 1:42pm · Like
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Joel HF Edward Langley--what are you picturing? Like a facebook group?
September 2 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The math and science program needs a thorough revamp, but how good it is as "philosophy of math" is completely open ended. What I mean is, of the 4 tutors I had for math, one raised actual poignant lines in that regard, but (quite correctly as far as it went) was quick to leave that line of inquiry and show that in many ways you could "do the math" and understand its terms, without answering, e.g., metaphysical questions about the existence of mathematicals.
The second was Mr. Clark, and he was decent...definitely had an exuding enthusiasm for it...but he really exemplified the fellow student, not the expert. An example, he presented a "Euclidean" proof of trisecting the angle. In his favor, it wasn't the most common trisectrix and was more accessible than the other ways, but he missed what "Euclidean" meant.
In fact, how many students, even ones self-proclaimed great at math (cough...Bolin...cough) made fools of themselves trying to prove the 5 postulate, or trisect the angle, or square the circle or any number of things actually proven, often more than a century ago, to be impossible. While Mr. Clark's hyperbolic trisectrix was awesome, and fit in with the Apollonian theme, it was not Euclidean, not in the sense in which it is mean when people say there is no Euclidean way. (Straight edge and compass construction)
The third tutor was incompetent, and frankly not only mystified the thing through obscurity, but was mystified himself by what I found to be basic algebra and calculus. My lab tutor, Mr. Shields, was far superior.
The 4th was Molly Gustin, RIP. Maybe it would have been great if she was of better mind. She, being a true constructivist, would have been fun to engage, I think, when she was of sounder mind.
But as it is, only one tutor raised pertinent questions wrt philosophy of math, but abandoned them in order to just "do math." Another was essentially a fellow student still make elementary mistakes, but was decent. Another was out of his league, and the last past her prime.
But here is the thing....the quality of the mathematics tutorial shouldn't be so dependent on the tutor. They need to figure out WHAT we are doing in that class....if it is philosophy of mathematics, then I had one class on that, my very first on Euclid. The rest missed the mark. Maybe we need to read on the Division and Method of SCience, ask what existence mathematicals have
September 2 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley What I'm thinking is this.
September 2 at 1:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley I own a prime domain name: "socraticum.com"
September 2 at 1:43pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And I've been trying to come up with a good use for it.
September 2 at 1:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley These people make a forum package that's specially designed to make online conversations as pleasant as possible: http://www.discourse.org/
Discourse
Conversations, not pages Why break conversations into awkward and arbitrary pages, where you have to...
DISCOURSE.ORG
September 2 at 1:44pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Joel HF Edward Langley--I think getting people involved is tricky enough. Fighting facebook is pointless.
September 2 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, I agree.
September 2 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele What if it could connect it to facebook like Goodreads and other online apps are connected?
September 2 at 1:48pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Or here is one, is Euclid I.1 a valid proof? Proclus lists that proposition and many others as fallacious...just imagine reading Euclid with Proclus, and asking the questions that are naturally raised...questions still debated today. E.g. that very first proposition, the objection is that it assumes the circles intersect, which is to assuming the continuity hypothesis. Going further back, you hit the question of whether geometry and arithmetic, that is continuous and discreet quantity are truly divisible into distinct sciences. And the question of what is math...you could say that the Elements presume we are studying continuous quantity, but does that mean Prclus anticipated a more modern conception of math, where one just starts with quantity and cannot assume continuity or discreteness is its property?
You could have 4 years of philosophy of math just proceeding from the questions raised by Proclus, and all the time engaging contemporary debates....
September 2 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I had Clark for Euclid and our discussions were great (despite a somewhat iffy section that year--and yes, I'm largely to blame there); Letteney for Ptolemy, and we had plenty of philosophical discussions while also "doing the math", great balance; Cain junior year, and I thought he was excellent; and Dr. Richard for senior year. He was ideal.
Maybe I was just lucky.
September 2 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele How difficult would that be to do, I know almost nothing about html and building websites.
September 2 at 1:49pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I think that's possible: the way it would work is that anyone who has a Facebook or Google account could basically join in with minimal hassle.
September 2 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I am intent on making a bigger fool of myself. So, suppose TAC does read more Aristotle and Thomas than any other college; and suppose they even do more Euclid and read more Bible without dogma in freshman year than any other college. Suppose this is all true. Why is this a good thing? Is the college presenting these things in the right way to help its students grow in wisdom, to help them approach academia and the world with wisdom, or just a kind of reaction?
September 2 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley It would basically be "sign up -> sign in with Facebook/Google -> join conversation"
September 2 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz That isn't hard to do...even the FSSP.la site allows you to log in via Facebook....They then have a discussion site, meant to facilate communiation with parishoners and between them...I am guessing you are thinking of something like that
September 2 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--I may be misremembering, but (a) I think my class did discuss that at TAC (the Bk I.1 problem that is), and (b) do we not read the Division and Method? I guess I went to so many extra seminars on it that I just assumed we did.
September 2 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And having it on a separate forum might be ideal as far as getting people who dislike Facebook (e.g. David Grothoff) to participate
September 2 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua, I'm not sure if it's really possible to make the quality of a math or science tutorial not dependent on the abilities of the tutor.
September 2 at 1:51pm · Like
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Joel HF True, but there is also surprising inertia to get people to use these other sites.
September 2 at 1:52pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But you can make it less so
September 2 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am up for anything as long as it is epically simple. Like Duplo Lego simple.
September 2 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Division and method is in senior seminar: exactly one class
September 2 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Edward Langley--the problem is when the student body also limits it, b/c half of them never learned basic algebra. (And I'm not saying all the students should be math wizards either.)
September 2 at 1:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz We raised no philosophical questions after the definitions and postulates, and challenged no proof.
The Saturday seminars where we did the Division and Method were far superior to the cursory treatment it got in seminar with the general student population
September 2 at 1:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg I had an extremely lousy Euclid tutor; but probably the wisest way to not address the "tyranny" of contemporary universities is to put wax in your ears.
September 2 at 1:53pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, for those interested, there was an extra seminar or seminars on Div & Method every year I was there.
September 2 at 1:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, and I went to those...and the one on the De Hebmadibus, and the one one (ad nauseam)
September 2 at 1:54pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Were you in those same Saturday seminars, Joshua Kenz? This would have been your freshman year.
September 2 at 1:55pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Basic algebra is pretty easy to learn. I do not see that as the real issue, the mortal sin here.
September 2 at 1:56pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Best thing in the world was watching Dr. MacArthur resurrect a point he was arguing with Nieto, and watching Nieto just put his hand down on the table in frustration....Dr. MacArthur was like a pit bull...he was wrong on this point, but he wasn't dropping it till he was satisfied
September 2 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I think the purpose of a liberal education is to give one tools to begin further pursuits elsewhere. I think TAC does this marvelously. The emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know things. Moreover, it aids us in having a well ordered mind and imagination.
The theology tutorials are such that one can benefit from the perennial wisdom of theologians without being Catholic. Nevertheless, the inherent Catholicity of the tutorials and the school result in many conversions.
September 2 at 1:55pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman TAC gets people started on the road.
September 2 at 1:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Maybe not, I did those starting soph. year.
September 2 at 1:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley I attended a two year long seminar on Division and Method
September 2 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We got to the mathematicals by the end of the first year
September 2 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (MacArthur only made it to the first couple classes)
September 2 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman i even went to those extra tutorials after I graduated.
September 2 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^#shameless.
September 2 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg "The emphasis on mathematics helps us to see that we do know things." Daniel, is seeing that we know things really that big a problem?
September 2 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF The other thing that I loved was how Nieto was so deferential to McArthur, even when Nieto disagreed--Neito not being a naturally deferential kinda guy when he thought someone else had something wrong.
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For moderns, yes.
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley Ever been to a non-TAC philosophy program?
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like
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Nina Rachele How are you picturing the format Ed? I am thinking something where there would be conversation threads for individual works, but also for general topics, and you would be able to subscribe to them and get updates.
September 2 at 1:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz My main point is that if TAC more explicitly framed the class, e.g. saying we are studying this to raise these sort of questions, then even if the tutor is not as competent, then at least some direction as to what we are doing is given.
And I agree with Joel HF whom FB will no longer let me tag. Baic algebra is supposedly required just to graduate HS...if homeschoolers aren't learning it, then they must be treated as people without a HS diploma...let them get a GED before college.
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg "The inherent Catholicity of the tutorials..." How is freshman theology inherently Catholic?
September 2 at 1:59pm · Like
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Joel HF We've been over this ad nauseum, but, for one thing, only Catholic tutors who take the oath can teach theology at TAC.
September 2 at 2:01pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, for some moderns. Seeing that we know things is a problem. But we are not moderns. We can see that we know things. Are you pretending to be moderns, and doing math to address this role you are playing? I am asking a serious question here.
September 2 at 2:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nina, basically a separate thread for a separate topic and possibly some top-level categorization of topics.
September 2 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF (now I can tag you!), do you think, e.g., Ms. Zedlick should be allowed to teach it?
September 2 at 2:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Possibly also a parallel blog for original long-form contributions.
September 2 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz (now I can't tag you? WTF facebook!), do you mean for Math or freshman theology?
September 2 at 2:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I suppose the Catholic tutor can also present an outlay of dogma to accompany Sacred Scripture in freshman theology if he wished, not to force anything on anyone, but just to present these infallible truths...
September 2 at 2:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley You can tag anyone if you type an "@"
September 2 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Facebook has some odd rule about when it suggests people to tag
September 2 at 2:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I see that some moderns doubt you can know things. But most students at TAC do not doubt this. Is this approach to math kind of like an academic apologetics course? Where does it lead? What is the purpose?
September 2 at 2:04pm · Like
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Joel HF @Edward Langley are you able to extract all of this into a searchable format, when you do your wizardry with the stats and the graphs and the what not?
September 2 at 2:04pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley The thread? yeah
September 2 at 2:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Right now I have something like the first 9000 posts in searchable format.
September 2 at 2:04pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Do students have recurring trouble seeing they know things, hence math as a reminder that they do?
September 2 at 2:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think exposure to philosophy tends to generate skepticism
September 2 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially since teenagers generally have an inflated view of what they think they know (Cf. Phaedo)
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Joshua Kenz I mean theology...you mentioned the prohibition on non-Catholics teaching it. Joel HF
September 2 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Yes, Ed, if each user had a kind of blog "auto attached" like facebook's old Notes feature where you could tag topics, and they could be auto-posted in a central blog...
September 2 at 2:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I doubt that, Edward. I have to jump off for a while for some calls re: the Meskwaki. But I hope I have cemented my reputation as a complete fool. Please know you can know this; there's a formula to show this.
September 2 at 2:11pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Well, there are lots of behind the scenes politics about who gets to teach what course. There are tutors who are Catholic even whose course options seem restricted.
September 2 at 2:11pm · Like
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Joel HF And McArthur did once say that they only expect tutors to be able to teach about 2/3rds of the program.
September 2 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is not, to my mind, an apologetics course. My point about "knowing that one knows," is meant in this way: Mathematics is the clearest of the sciences. It is very easy to perceive the movement from principles to conclusions. One can also see that one is syllogising. A strong background in math enables a student to reflect upon what it means to know, and to point to things that he does know. This is especially helpful as one enters into the more difficult sciences of philosophy of nature and metaphysics.
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Edward Langley I think the restrictions make sense, since the school's view is that there is a certain way to do philosophy that leads to the truth.
September 2 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley A school that thinks that would necessarily take care to ensure that the philosophy (+ therefore theology) tutorials are taught by teachers who pursue the truth in that way.
September 2 at 2:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, I see that Daniel; but the principles of revelation are not known by math or syllogism. And these principles we all must know; not only know, but live. Indeed these principals are reasonable, but not reasonable in a mathematical or syllogistic way -- but precisely in other ways. So I have to keep asking, the college being Catholic, why so much of math, but not this other stuff?
September 2 at 2:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, for the same reason that Plato supposedly had a sign over the doorway to the Academy that said "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter."
September 2 at 2:15pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman There is probably little that one could point to in Freshman theology that one could call 'Catholic,' aside from the tutor and the majority of the students. The Catholicity is seen in the structure of the whole. At the end of freshman year the student becomes quickly aware of the many challenges presented by the Scriptures. Also, I think it begins to become clear that one need some authority to turn to in order to begin making sense of things. Fittingly, we begin Sophomore year with Augustine's On Christian Doctrine.
September 2 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel, you seem to be presuming that the study of scripture isn't inherently Catholic.
September 2 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Let us not forget that, while the college is Catholic, it is not producing theologians, per se, but liberally educated men and women.
September 2 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman People study the Scriptures without being Catholic.
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Edward Langley I'm sure some here would object, but the Bible is the Church's book.
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Daniel Lendman ^true.
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Daniel Lendman But reading it is not necessarily Catholic.
September 2 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF My tutor in Freshman Theology definitely guided us to specific (Catholic) conclusions. And he was one of the less pushy tutors. Or less obviously pushy, perhaps.
September 2 at 2:17pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure, but that doesn't mean that they either (a) do it correctly or (b) aren't engaged in a Catholic activity in some sense of the word.
September 2 at 2:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If so, there would be no more protestants.
September 2 at 2:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Nothing that wasn't say, in the Ecumenical Councils, for instance, but still things we wouldn't have arrived at without him.
September 2 at 2:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think we disagree. Or that you want to push this point too far.
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Daniel Lendman I had Paietta, God rest his soul. And that is all I will say.
September 2 at 2:19pm · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF Did you mean me, up above, Daniel Lendman?
September 2 at 2:24pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz In my Freshman theology I was accused of being overly "apologetic". Which was an odd choice of words, considering we had 5 non Catholics, and those that I argued with the most were Catholic and just butchering the scripture (favorite was over "hardening pharaohs heart", a person essentially ended up saying that what God did was sinful...when I pointed out that implication, the response was "well he didn't fulfil the three conditions" and I asked "imperfect knowledge or will then?"...they weren't happy with me)
But the 2nd semester (after I pulled back) the tutor said that perhaps his criticism was too harsh, and some people sometimes need to be smacked down.
I remember being confused about what we were doing...was it Catholic theology, or was it just groping around a literary source. Sophomore year with MacArthur was great though. I had Paietta junior year and that was horrid (well my section was horrid)...senior year was Nieto.
I my experience was 50% awesome/50% terrible I do think I would have rather had say Shields for Freshman year.....
September 2 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think it was Dante who discovered the sign above Hell's gate reading whomever is ignorant of geometry shall never leave.
September 2 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But I would think if the Freshman view of Scripture leads to questions and a realisation of the need for an authority, then that points to the Church, not the Doctors of the Church, lest we think Authority on matters of faith comes from a person or group. This may lead the students to think that their collective wisdom is infallible.
September 2 at 2:35pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "I remember being confused about what we were doing...was it Catholic theology, or was it just groping around a literary source." -I think the thread might have ended with this comment.
September 2 at 2:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so Edward, are you considering setting something up?
September 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Mhm
September 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 3
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Tim Cantu TAC students don't need any particular class or set of classes to believe their wisdom is infallible. Take me, for example. I have never been wrong.
September 2 at 2:36pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg Be sure to not cut the fools out of any discussion. Fools are the food of truth.
September 2 at 2:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Pope Cantu.
September 2 at 2:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda interesting to be in class with 18 infallible people who disagree
September 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Tim Cantu Ha! And you people think the current Pope's off the cuff interviews are bad.
September 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 4
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Tim Cantu "And that, my son, is why Brian Kelly should start Greg Bryant at running back against Michigan. Next question."
September 2 at 2:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Brian Kelly was a lousy soccer player. But I am a fool.
September 2 at 2:38pm · Like
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Tim Cantu Is the Pope allowed to establish the DH in the NL? Asking for a friend.
September 2 at 2:39pm · Like
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Joel HF ANATHEMA SIT!
September 2 at 2:40pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Is your dog named Anathema too?
September 2 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I once knew a dog, his name was Anathema. He was very obedient.
September 2 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu Worrying about the boundaries of Summorum Pontificum will be the least of your problems when I'm through. How does one word an excommunication of an entire fanbase?
September 2 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, as we all know only one person in each class is truly endowed in fallibility...Sam Almeida, who was the infallible speaker for his class, pronounced me infallible in the commons my junior year. So, you can see by our mutual pronouncements of each other's infallibility that I am truly infallible. I see no such credentials for the rest of you.....
September 2 at 2:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Cato used to end every speech in the following manner "Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est." And quite right he was too.
September 2 at 2:41pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Was he the son of Dr. Almeida, my honors prof at FUS?
September 2 at 2:42pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yes
September 2 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Samantha--where are you teaching Latin, if I might ask?
September 2 at 2:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sam Almeida . . . was something else
September 2 at 2:43pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Oh damn. I'm guessing he is ridiculously smart. I think he sat in our classes, doing his own work, when he was like 8.
September 2 at 2:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's one thing you might say about him.
September 2 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And it would be true.
September 2 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe South City Community School. It's my boys' school. Handily, all the small Christian schools are always in desperate need of Latin teachers. I taught at the boys' classical school in Denver, and it so happened that the one here needed me as well.
September 2 at 2:45pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think it depends on who you ask: Sam Almeida or anyone else?
September 2 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg In seminar, if 1 person presents Dogma, is that taken seriously?
September 2 at 2:45pm · Like
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Joel HF I kid of course! I all Almeidas everywhere.
September 2 at 2:45pm · Unlike · 3
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Sam Rocha His father was a fine professor, a humble and beautiful soul. When he had to dismiss me from the honours program I think it hurt him more than me.
September 2 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It depends if the dogma is relevant to the discussion, understood correctly and presented in a way conducive to improving the discussion.
September 2 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That's how Dogma is supposed to be presented always, and always trusted on faith.
September 2 at 2:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, some people don't present it that way.
September 2 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "conducive to improving discussion" is key here
September 2 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia for example, in my freshman theology section we had a student who kept reference Msgr. Knox. it got old.
September 2 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia until the tutor finally lost it
September 2 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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Tony Lopez Wayne, Patrick, Kenneth.
September 2 at 2:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, can you tell me about Descartes? Descartes knew math, but lost sight of how you can know things. How was this possible?
September 2 at 2:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sometimes the format of the discussion needs to improve for the sake of Dogma, instead of Dogma being presented in a way that is useful for the discussion.
September 2 at 2:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^WRONG^
September 2 at 2:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks.
September 2 at 2:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here is a Dogma on God.
"God's existence is not merely an object of rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith."
This kind of fits nicely into this discussion, because the Bible points to the knowability of God in both the Old and New Testaments. So, are these two ways of equal import? I mean, is God as object of reason more important than God as object of faith?
September 2 at 2:59pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Does that imply that, at one and the same time, for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of Faith?
September 2 at 3:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think that is the correct and full implication.
September 2 at 3:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think so, and Ott or whoever you're quoting isn't exactly "magisterial"
September 2 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Now this:
"In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order."
Certainly, "God exists" is a religious truth of the natural order.
September 2 at 3:02pm · Like
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Joel HF Also clearly, "God exists" is not "all religious and moral truths of the natural order"
September 2 at 3:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg But it is among those religious truths of the natural order, no?
September 2 at 3:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg God exists is a conclusion of metaphysics or natural theology, so it is a religious truth of the natural order, yes?
September 2 at 3:04pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF I'd quibble, but, yes it is a religious truth of the natural order.
September 2 at 3:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Edward: "Ott or whoever you're quoting isn't exactly 'magisterial.'" Are you saying this is not a Dogma?
September 2 at 3:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps not in its current formulation.
September 2 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think it is a religious truth of the natural order too. And I think I'd see why you would quibble. But I generally would agree.
September 2 at 3:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley i.e. if the Church were to define it, it would probably be clearer.
September 2 at 3:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, it's from Vat I and is stated as a negative proposition. You are correct. Thank you.
September 2 at 3:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Just to be clear, I'm not denying it's truth nor the necessity to believe it when correctly understood)
September 2 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Gotcha.
September 2 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Unlike me, who frequently denies dogma because I think I understand it when I do not.
September 2 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Or, the opposite of that.
September 2 at 3:08pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, to even understand dogma, you need to be able to talk about it reasonably. And I wish there was more of that at the colleges I went to.
September 2 at 3:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I wish Christendom was better at that too
September 2 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I am guessing you are conversing with Scott...he is blocked
September 2 at 3:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yeah, I hear you. And I wish TAC had more of that Dogma piece in my freshman theology seminar too.
September 2 at 3:12pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Suarez held that the existence of God could be known by faith and reason at the same time in the same person, and he argued this was because the formal object differed. Most theologians disagree with him. I have no idea what side Scott is taking, but I assume he is asserting it as dogma? Despite Ott's rating it as a disputed question and explaining both sides?
September 2 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Scott seems to be asserting that one and the same truth can be a matter of faith and reason simultaneously and furthermore asserting that that position is dogmatic.
September 2 at 3:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Really?
September 2 at 3:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think he's quoting something like this: http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
September 2 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley proposition I.2
September 2 at 3:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why don't you just ask me? Would that not be more polite? Instead of placing sources and suppositions into my mouth?
September 2 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I asked "Does that imply that, at one and the same time, for one and the same person the existence of God is both something rationally known and an object of Faith?"
Scott responded: "I think that is the correct and full implication."
September 2 at 3:15pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, I was talking to someone you can't see.
September 2 at 3:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Feel free to quote me so he can see:
He is a liar and a fool. If he is quoting Ott he knows damn well out says it is a disputed question. Or maybe he is not actually reading Ott, but like a lazy uneducated troll just quoting a list on a website that fails to differentiated common opinion from de fide doctrine, as Ott does
September 2 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg I think it implies it can be in the synthesis between faith and reason in the area of natural theology, but not in the realm of supernatural theology, namely those things which can only be known by faith.
But I presented the Dogma in regards to natural theology. I think it helps make the point that Faith aids reason. This is what TAC teaches in its Charter under the maxim "faith seeking understanding."
September 2 at 3:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley It seems like he might not have understood a prior question I asked him. Perhaps all he's asserting is that for some people God's existence is a matter of faith and for others it's a matter of knowledge.
September 2 at 3:17pm · Like
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Joel HF @Scott Weinberg, where is it in Vatican I?
September 2 at 3:17pm · Like
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Joel HF I.e., where was that quote?
September 2 at 3:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Who is asking the question I cannot see? And why cannot I see him?
September 2 at 3:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Someone has blocked you.
September 2 at 3:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which generally plays havoc with these threads, but whatever.
September 2 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Well, I do not wish to discuss "through you" with a hostile person.
September 2 at 3:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott, where exactly in Vatican I did you get the text you quoted up above?
September 2 at 3:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not just forwarding his opinions. Sometimes, however, it's necessary to repeat conversations to resolve confusions when two participants in a thread have blocked each other.
September 2 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Edward, I will assert this. It may be wrong, but I will assert it, and I am very open to the being corrected. No man can know supernatural truths by reason, but only by faith and revelation. All these truths are reasonable. Man may know natural revelation -- such as God exists -- by reason alone; but some do not know this by reason, but by grace. And even natural theological truths cannot proceed without admixture of error without grace. This is faith seeking understanding. Faith and revelation aids reason, to perfect metaphysics which, in turn, perfects sacred theology.
September 2 at 3:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I block no one. And here is the Vat I text. Let me know what you think.
September 2 at 3:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think all that is true.
September 2 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Admixture of error" just gave me BINGO!!!
September 2 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Waiting on the Vatican I quote.
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Edward Langley Although I probably understand "admixture of error" differently.
September 2 at 3:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Edward Langley, here is what Ott says
"God's Existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De fide)
.....
" 2. Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same Object.
It is a disputed point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of God. Many outstanding scholastic theologians (Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, Albertus Magnus) and many later theologians (Suarez) assert that such is possible, because the formal object is different (natural insight- Divine Revelation) and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being (nature-grace). St. Thomas, on the contrary, teaches: "It is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same person.": impossibile est, quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum (S. th 2 II. 1, 5) As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot co-exist with the obscurity of faith. It is, however, possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by another. According to the teaching of St. Thomas, it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural order, and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural order, because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge (difference of material object). (Cf. S. th. 2 II 1, 5)."
I had a rule as a mod on a forum before. No quoting Ott unless you can actually quote him...lists online don't count.
September 2 at 3:27pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Patience is a virtue; Internet connect is bad on the great plains.
September 2 at 3:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Here's what Ott says about that dogma:
"God's Existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De fide)
.....
2. Knowledge and Faith as Regards the Same Object.
It is a dispute point whether one and the same person can at the same time have knowledge and faith in the existence of God. Many outstanding scholastic theologians (Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, Albertus Magnus) and many later theologians (Suarez) assert that such is possible, because the formal object is different (natural insight- Divine Revelation) and because both acts or habits belong to different orders of being (nature-grace). St. Thomas, on the contrary, teaches: "It is impossible for the same truth to be known and believed by the same person.": impossibile est, quod ab eodem idem sit scitum et creditum (S. th 2 II. 1, 5) As ground for this hhe submits that the clear insight into the truth associated with knowledge cannot co-exist with the obscurity of faith. It is, however, possible that the same truth could be known by one person and believed by another. According to the teaching of St. Thomas, it is also possible for the same person at the one time to have a natural knowledge of the existence of God as the originator of the natural order, and a supernatural faith in the existence of God as the originator of the supernatural order, because the supernatural faith comprehends truths which are not contained in natural knowledge (difference of material object). (Cf. S. th. 2 II 1, 5)."
September 2 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF NP Scott! I'll eagerly await seeing where in Vatican I this quote is from "In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order"
September 2 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg This is good too, but not exactly what you are waiting for:
God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.
The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason. (Vat I)
September 2 at 3:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you mean you block no one since you unblocked me, right Perescott?
September 2 at 3:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Did you copy and paste the quote from a source other than Vatican I? Did you mean that the quote was "from Vatican I" as in Vatican I was the authority cited to support the quote?
September 2 at 3:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, and thank you for that gratuitious high five.
September 2 at 3:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Both, it's way up there around 950. Free copy of CCC if you find it.
September 2 at 3:31pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia CCC is not infallible, VI is....
September 2 at 3:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yep, I didn't know that.
September 2 at 3:32pm · Like
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Joel HF When you say both, what do you mean?
September 2 at 3:32pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz If he cannot actually quote Ott, call him on it
September 2 at 3:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The doctrine and the source text in the document of Vat I.
September 2 at 3:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Quoting a website that doesn't even get the division of Ott correct (this "dogma" is from part 4, not part 5) is just junk
September 2 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what exactly is being argued?
September 2 at 3:36pm · Like
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Joel HF To be clear Scott, you are doubling down on this exact quote being from Vat. I: "In the state of fallen nature, it is morally impossible for man without supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty, and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order." Is that correct?
September 2 at 3:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott is quoting from Vatican I, and I can't find the quote there. I'm just aiming for precision!
September 2 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No. That is not the exact quote from Vat I.
September 2 at 3:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Gotcha. Where was the quote from?
September 2 at 3:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That quote is from Ott. He derives it from this quote
"It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error."
Which IS in Vatican I, session 3 chapter 2. Also found in Denzinger (old numbering) 1786 and is nothing more than what St. Thomas says in S. Th. I q. 1 a. 1
Just so everyone is clear
September 2 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia aaah, so you're being persnickety... why, Joel?
September 2 at 3:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This is not it either, but this is good too:
"Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other... faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds." (Vat I)
September 2 at 3:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes, Joshua, we went through that before
September 2 at 3:38pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm an arrogant TACer, and a mean one to boot. This is what I do, sadly.
September 2 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg with gnosis
September 2 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I knew there was a reason you and I were facebook friends....
September 2 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here is something someone else pointed to, that was in Vatican I: ""It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error." Vatican I, session 3 chapter 2.
September 2 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia maybe I should ask Perescott....
Perescott, what is your point (in twitter format 140 characters or less)?
September 2 at 3:41pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Boy the blocking sure makes things silly to read. I feel like a theologian who has lost his mind
September 2 at 3:44pm · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF Things would be less silly to read if I had been less of a stick in the mud about the exact origin of that one quotation.
September 2 at 3:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That is it Joel. THANKS TO DIVINE REVELATION, matters concerning God can be known without admixture of error. But without DIVINE REVELATION, it follows that matters concerning God are known by reason alone with admixture of error; hence the doctrine...
And here is another revelvant section from Vat I.
"If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith [even the basic ones of natural theology on God's existence] can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles: let him be anathema."
So, I think this is worth understanding clearly, because some think metaphysics, in itself, by reason alone, without grace, can useful to perfecting sacred theology. This -- it seems to me -- is false. It is useful when it is perfected by grace, and dogma, and faith and revelation then, once perfected, it helps brings sacred theology to completion in the Thomistic synthesis.
I think this is why Thomas' metaphysics is different that Aristotle's in places. Thomas' faith enabled him to perfect metaphysics; and write the Summa as a synthesis of Faith and Reason.
September 2 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Your parenthetical is wrong, I think.
September 2 at 3:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Michael Beitia, can you please simply call me Scott? Thank you.
September 2 at 3:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It could be. You can strike the entire paragraph.
September 2 at 3:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You are, Adrw.
September 2 at 3:51pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng That is a very TNET spirit-embibed utterance Daniel Lendman
September 2 at 3:52pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Andrew Seeley blocked me once, because I disputed him on the issue of homosexuality. He said my opposition to homosexuality, or at least same sex attraction, was a knee-jerk reaction. My position is that same-sex attraction is a moral and natural defficiency, a kind of deficient cause, in the same way that same sex attraction is a natural cause aimed at a good and desirable end.
September 2 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I consider myself a TNET prophet.
September 2 at 3:54pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Indeed, our ancients stories foretell of such a prophecy.
September 2 at 3:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, since you spelled my name right..... okay Scott
September 2 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks. How do you pronounce Beitia? Is it Spanish?
September 2 at 3:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I already smoked the Montecristo, but there is a Cuban Romeo y Julieta for anyone in the area who wants to have a real smoker's section to this.... I will keep the Partagas though....
https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/.../10590638...
SCONTENT-B-LAX.XX.FBCDN.NET
September 2 at 4:00pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have a Montecrito 2 in my humidor, right now. Perks to living in Austria!
September 2 at 4:08pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Lendman, while I got the Cubans without leaving California, I will give you that you have better access....but I can smoke a Cuban, while drinking Bourbon and cleaning a handgun...because 'Murica! I prefer my perks.
September 2 at 4:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I prefer your perks, too, Joshua.
September 2 at 4:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The block function on facebook is for people who cannot handle the truth. heh.
September 2 at 4:24pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Spanish!?!?!? a pox upon you
September 2 at 5:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The TNET needle is stuck in an old familiar groove...
September 2 at 5:20pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Weinberg is Latvian.
September 2 at 5:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that explains everything
September 2 at 5:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Do you guys know the one about the Latvian?
September 2 at 5:37pm · Like · 1
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Tim Cantu I know a Latvian joke!
Latvian man hear knock on door, say, "who is?"
Voice say "is potato man, I come to give free potato."
Man very excite, open door.
Is no potato man. Is secret police.
September 2 at 5:43pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Two Latvian are look at cloud.
One see potato.
Other see impossible dream.
Is same cloud.
September 2 at 5:48pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Can we agree that Latvia is a free and sovereign nation?
September 2 at 5:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia do you have magisterial authority that says that?
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Tim Cantu Hail! Hail, Freedonia! Land of the brave and free!
September 2 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Latvian man are start read thread. Thread never ends. Man dies.
September 2 at 5:54pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley http://socraticum.com/
Socraticum.com
SOCRATICUM.COM
September 2 at 5:54pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley Still in development, but you can sign up with either Facebook or Google.
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Scott Weinberg Three Latvian boys conscripted into Czar's navy. Ship sails to Vancouver. Three boys jump overboard. Never look back.
September 2 at 5:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tom Malone the Latvian jokes have begun.
September 2 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Megan Caughron Almost to 12,000. Wow.
September 2 at 6:27pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Anyone read Longinus, the great rhetorician from the early years. Interesting how he uses the Bible, but was not Latvian.
September 2 at 6:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I could joke about my ethnicity, but it is too long and pun is the lowest from of humor.
are there any Latvian saints?
September 2 at 6:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I feel like I should say "That's what she said" but I'm not sure why
September 2 at 6:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg There are lots of Latvian saints. St. Roland. My wife is Norwegian, and my grandmother was Italian. We have four daughters, and they are very beautiful. I am open to arranged marriage. We have land and sheep.
September 2 at 6:45pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Food for thought
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Adrw Lng "supported in many ways by the classical liberal arts"
September 2 at 6:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Anyway, Longinus, the Greek, said you cannot know the **sublime** truths of nature without the revelation of the God of Moses.
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Scott Weinberg My girls... Solveig (right) is 16 today. Happy b-day Solveig!
September 2 at 7:11pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Thanks for the invite (many hours ago), Joel HF. Please keep me posted as the seminar on DB develops.
September 2 at 7:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Scott Weinberg, I have five sons. I am sure we can arrange some marriages. Your daughters are beautiful, but the offer of land and sheep would seal the deal for me.
September 2 at 7:52pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Jeffrey Bond, I had a look at those lines, but I'm not sure they were the same ones you had recommended.
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John Ruplinger In any case, I fell back to defending what I see as happening, below. Perhaps, Pater Edmund, would be interested or could steer me in a better a direction too.
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John Ruplinger Looks like it's too long
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John Ruplinger Furiis accensus et ira terribilis: “tune hinc spoliis indute meorum / eripiare mihi? Palllas te hoc vulnere, Pallas immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit.” / hoc dicens ferrum adverso sub pectore condit / fervidus. (Aeneid. Finis.)
Ablaze with the furies and terrible in wrath: “Wouldst (thou) clad in the spoils of mine be snatched away from me? Pallas by this wound, Pallas sacrifices you and takes up the punishment from your defiled blood.” Saying this, fevered he strikes the IRON deep through under the foe's chest.
First I'ld like to take up the final words of the poem (less two lines). Aeneas about to grant clemency, at the sight of his troth-bound ally Evander's son's belt, loses it, no? Burnt up with the furies, and terrible with wrath he flashes the anger of Achilles. It hearkens back to the “ira Iunonis” of the opening, the same as menis in Greek; the Iliad begins with wrath, the Aeneid ends in it. Pallas, who very like Aeneas' own son, who was the hope of his people, the crown prince, was struck down by Turnus. Surely it is a very different matter, a different thing, from what causes Achilles' anger: it is the loss of the hope for the future of Evander's people. But is this mere righteous anger? Before (furiis) and at the end (fervidus) he is shaking hot with anger: no less than three words to describe that, like the furies and like the goddess Juno no less; both a rage from the bowels of hell and a wrath that is proper to the gods above, we could call it Achilles' anger doubled over. He trips over Pallas' name in his anger. Is it, as he claims, Pallas who does the deed? To whom would Pallas be sacrificing then? How is it not rather Aeneas sacrificing to Pallas (or is that a reference to Athene?)? How is this not an act of revenge in hot rage? And all this, after Turnus had just conceded Lavinia. Surely the wars that follow or rather continue might have been avoided had he spared Turnus. This is not to say that Turnus is guiltless: that later. But Aeneas' opportunity to end the war is hereby lost. Regarding the sacrifice “immolat”, this reminds me of the practice of Romans to sacrifice the leaders of the conquered enemy to the fathers (patres) and for the fatherland (patria) (cf. the light-hearted play Titus Andronicus). Is he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in Pallas' name to Pallas' FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to Aeneas' future patria, Rome that will become? To put it precisely, Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom Turnus, prince captive and chief spoil, to his father and the fatherland. Whereas the war in the Iliad was coming to a close, here the war for Aeneas has just begun but also the war to gain empire while continually expanding Rome, a war that shall last more than 700 years continuously (setting aside Numa's reign). The Iliad can't hold a stick to that. 10 years versus 700 and change (plus hundreds more at the end of the Pax Romana)!
September 2 at 8:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger (But perhaps by “furiis” is signified his visceral desire for revenge of the foul deed of murdering a boy, one whom Aeneas was charged to protect, a nefas deed. And by ira, to contrast, is signified a more intellectually apprehended matter of injustice to be rectified, namely Aeneas' bounden duty to render good his word with Evander, as well as repayment to Turnus for killing a king before his time and even glorying in it by taking the belt as prize and badge of honor.)
But the difficult phrase is more important “ferrum adverso sub pectore condit”. It is THE sentence of the poem, what we've been waiting for the whole poem. Of course condit is in direct reference to the opening lines “dum conderet urbem” and Aeneas' many attempts to do so. There is then that first obvious meaning “founds”. This is a founding act of some kind. The other two possible literal meanings here are “buries”, but this is only said of the dead, and the war is not over as I said but to continue, one after the other until Aeneas himself dies (and soon) and his body floats down a river unburied. Other cities are still to be founded before finally Rome itself. It is unlikely he is burying (or putting away) the sword which would have been by an act of clemency he did NOT do. Perhaps it could signify burying the sword into the ground under Turnus, considering the violent force and rage of the thrust. Here condit means “strikes deeply”, which is to be considered given his anger. [It could also mean “hides” or “composes” as a poem, but I don't think those are pertinent.] We are left with the literal “strikes deeply” and the obvious allusion to “founds”. “adverso” is said of the chest (pectore), the seat of wisdom where one rolls one's thoughts over. Is he striking down the mindset of those opposed (adverso) the glory of Rome? How then does Turnus, last of the heroes, oppose Rome? (I don't know.) Is Turnus, too great to submit his personal glory for the glory of the city? Or INSTEAD is the meaning that Aeneas “founds the iron age of Rome below (sub) the heart” in the seat rather of the passions? It reminds one of the advice of Anchises' shade “debellare superbos” war down the proud, but Aeneas here does not “parcere subiectis” spare the subjected, which Turnus now is: do we think Turnus will rise again and not keep his word? And in what way is Aeneas here “pacis imponere morem” imposing the custom of peace (something that must await Augustus)? Of course that's all not to say that the final 2 lines aren't unmeaningful nor the final two words “sub umbras”, under the shadows, and even the word “indignata”, (offended) portends that fury will follow fury. And how not with all Latium up in arms and the last hero dead?
Let me suggest a few last things that Rome, at war, for 700 years, grows and lives by ferrum, “iron”. “Iron” is the metal of the Aeneid; Homer's was the bronze age. The age of heroes is over. It is no longer for personal glory but the glory of Rome. It is with an iron sword that Rome bit by bit expands. It is the kingdom mixed of iron and clay that Daniel speaks of. But here lies another problem. It is also a reference to the founding act of Romulus, who is the real founder of Rome and does so with his own sword BURIED in his brother, a fratricide, as St. Augustine points out. Rome is the city founded on “iron” built by iron and ruled with iron, polluted in coeptis in fraternal blood. Of course, that's the worst light. But it is not so clear: clemency was often shown. Was revenge the policy? It is by Rome's very clemency and extending citizenship to allies and keeping troth with them that cemented amity in Italy and extended her dominion, such that others desired her protection and sought it. But it is a tenuous and difficult thing as borne out in her history. And it was difficult at times not to act in revenge. Perhaps that is what the poet is showing too. What does it mean to do, as Anchises advised, “regere populos imperio” to rule peoples with command, to beat down the proud with war, to show clemency to the humble (or subjected), to impose the custom of peace? And yet, I cannot see how Aeneas shows clemency or imposes peace; not so, the opposite and he has not learned. But did even Augustus? Or finally was the advice false? Did Aeneas leave hell out of the gate of false dreams and the advice given bad?
September 2 at 8:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Lastly, it ends here, most abruptly. We don't know what Aeneas next does nor much detail of what follows. Only that he will found a city but not Rome and wage war til he dies to be washed out to sea. Just as book seven chronicled the cause of the war and the unleashing of Bellum, hideous to behold, the final words propel the founding spirit into interminable wars to establish empire. The first word is “arma” and tis a book of a man who brings war from Troy to the peaceful coast of Italy.
To sum is it not an act of founding, with the necessary sacrifice and the aim implied (the glory of the Roman empire) with demonstrating the mode and means of rule all in one act and word?
Nefas: the belt and death of Pallas
Et laevo pressit pede talia fatus / exanimem rapiens immania pondera baltei / impressumque nefas: una sub nocte iugali caesa manus iuvenum foede thalamique cruenti, / quae Clonus Eurytides multo caelaverat auro; / quo nunc Turnus ovat spolio gaudetque potitus. / nescia mens hominum fati sortisque futurae et servare modum rebus sublata secundis! Turno tempus erit magno cum optaverit emptum / intactum Pallanta, et cum spolia ista diemque / oderit. At socii multo gemitu lacrimisque / impositum scuto referunt Pallanta frequentes. / O dolor atque decus magnum rediture parenti, haec te prima dies bello dedit, haec eadem aufert, / cum tamen ingentis Rutulorum linquis arcervos.
X 495-509
Turnas having slain Pallas.
And having said these kind of things, he pressed the unsouled (corpse) with his left foot, seizing the vast weight of the belt and the unspeakable horror [nefas] impressed: a band of youth on one nuptial night foully slain and gory wedding beds, which Clonus Eurytides had carved with much gold. In which spoil now Turnus triumphs and rejoices at having. Men's mind unknowing of fate and future hap or (how) to guard the mean, upraised by favorable things. For Turnus the time will come when greatly he would wish Pallas sold untouched, and when he'll hate those spoils and (that) day. But crowding comrades with much groan and tears bore back Pallas, placed upon his shield. O (you) much sorrow and splendor returning to your father, this the first day gave you to war, this same took you away, when still you left behind vast piles of Rutulians.
Though I do not comment on each point. The entire above passage is most moving and amazing.
Here I examine the belt, that caused Aeneas' wrath, the NEFAS both depicted and that of Turnus but this question too: does Aeneas pay back justly the nefas or take it up again as Turnus by committing one himself (sumit poenam, lit. take up the punishment upon himself)? For clearly Turnus snatches the belt but the nefas too, which makes it so ponderous. What is depicted on the belt is obscure. It is worth long inquiry. Since I was clueless except a one sentence description, I lucked into finding a lengthy article “The Sword Belt of Pallas” on google, the all knowing. It is a fascinating article that tackles this labyrinthine story and references, and some points on the belt story. The question in that article that is of great importance I think is this: Were the Danaid statues appropriated from Egypt after the battle of Actium? If so then Augustus (like Turnus) has taken up the beltium and the nefas too, just as Turnus did, glorying in possession of them. So too I ask the follow up question, did Aeneas not take up spoils from Turnus (which we don't see) but some crime? Was it nefas for Aeneas to strike down Turnus pleading for mercy?
September 2 at 8:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Firstly, the boy was friend to Aeneas. As Homer points out he is like Achilles, whose glory is but FOR ONE DAY, as indeed is all glory, but fleeting and often turned to infamy (cf. Ozymandias). More importantly he was prince, son of Evander. If I remember right, Evander was the first Italian ally. They were troth bound. Moreover, Aeneas promised to watch over the youth. It is this blood covenant (bound by the blood of Pallas) and the likeness of Pallas to Ascanius that is significant. Not the friendship of Achilles and Patroclus, but the Roman alliance that bound her and built her empire. Such was stronger than anything that Greece had produced which as Herodotus points out would have fallen to pieces after Salamis had Xerxes not left (following Artemisia's advice, clever gal she). The Greeks were relatively weakly bound, and I doubt would have withstood the likes of Hannibal. And it also was Hannibal's fatal error, a political one. After his greatest victory – what should have been the end of the war – Hannibal lost the war because he did not march directly on Rome, having thought he won. But from the plutocatric and Moloch worshiping ivory coast city that ruled its allies by FEAR, Hannibal did not dream that the Roman allies would not defect but instead come to her aid. And thus in winning, he lost: how profound the irony of Providence. He lost not because of an error in his art but because of an error in his ways.
But what of the belt? The belt is an article of distinction merely, not like a shield or helmet in Homer; it's not clear that it served as a sheathe even. It depicts nefas, unspeakable horror. Unlike the shield of Achilles which is described in pages, here two lines are given to hint at the horror – it is nefas, NOT TO BE SPOKEN, after all. It depicts the slaughter of 50 youths unripe (as Pallas) by their would be, forced to be, cousin-wives. Egyptus and Danaus, brothers at war (cf. Romulus and Remus or Augustus and Antony), dragged their offspring into the feud that would devour their own blood, ancient Ugulino's. The particulars are confusing and various in tradition, but Egyptus made his daughters kill “ferro” by sword, their own cousins to consummate the wedding and wrath at the same time: a fratricide / conjugicide. They are the Danaan origin of the incestuous rulers of Egypt (since one escaped). The article points out Cleopatra (descendent) was a serial conjugicide herself and went on to 'marry' Antony (after as we know she had seduced then deceased Julius Caesar and after Antony had married Augustus' sister): this the article points out is mentioned explicitly by Virgil by “sequitur nefas Aegypta coniunx” (“the Egyptian wife, unspeakable horror, follows.”). Is it right to glory in yet another internecine triumph, the final, after all those that had sucked dry the blood of the youth of Rome? Is Actium itself being compared to the incestuous bridal-chamber murders, most unnatural? Does Augustus, like Aeneas, put an end to foul deeds or rather take glory in them himself? Thus, Virgil in these few lines connects the battle of Actium, the original act of Aeneas, the founding fratricide, and the horror of a wedding night gone bad. Fratricide, incest, rapine, child-bloodletting, regicide are stirred in one gory pot. HOW, O HOW can this depict some right order????
September 2 at 8:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But here's a clincher. It is said that Clonus Eurytides (and who is he?) engraved the belt with much gold. Virgil wouldn't waste a sentence on this detail. Here's my question. the word caelaverat (BTW from caelum) means carved or embossed. But who in his right mind would carve such a horrible deed? And it's on a belt, an article of HONOR only: a point itself of glory. Good Lord, how twisted, not only to do such a thing but to BOAST of it. Is Virgil criticizing Actium? Is Virgil criticising the ENTIRE history of Rome? (And let me note here that Aeneas, I find the strangest, least interesting, most unremarkable character in all great literature, that is character wise, speech wise. I could write much more on that. So, I have wondered whether Virgil is subtly dimming august Augustus. My only other memorable view of Augustus is from Shakespeare, in whom he appears a cynical Machiavel, but I'm less familiar with Antony and Cleopatra than Julius Caesar, wherein he coldly marks friends and foes alike for death, indifferently). But caelaverat can also refer to composing poetry as Horace points out “Mirabile visu celatumque novem musis” “wonderful to see and engraved with the nine muses (Ep. 2.2.92 from my nifty never used 160 yr. Old Latin dictionary that almost predates the era of the novel ) Thus, did Clonus engrave the crime and gild it over with MUCH gold just as Virgil is writing this nefas and gilding it over similarly? Is the nefas engraved but covered in gold an analogy for Virgil's poem, gilding a foul deed? More: making look glorious and a badge of honor what really depicts under the gold foul, foul, horrible deeds? Or to be precise to gild in beautiful gold what should not be and should not be seen or heard. Curiouser and curiouser. Not to mention again the word “arma” is first of the poem and the founding (condit) is with a sword in the end and those bellowing words of the Sybil reverberating throughout the poem and that age which still ring in my ears: “BELLA HORRIDA BELLA”. For war, as you know the Catechism of Trent teaches, is a punishment from God. And shall Rome, the city of Man, and the new Babylon, glory in its deeds of war? Did Actium extinguish the crimes of Egypt and her nefarious 'husband' or “sumit” take them upon herself? As that article suggests, did not Augustus glory in triumph at Actium? OR did he (and Aeneas too) extinguish a foul deed? THAT is the repeated question. Is order restored and peace achieved at last or is it a temporary false peace (providential) but that will not last and DID NOT LAST? Let me suggest this is but a beginning (perhaps), and I should investigate it more and it is worth investigating more. Virgil is hinting at something (and doing clear finger pointing as well) that shouldn't be spoken; it is horrible. As Daniel Lendman mentioned much earlier, there are crimes that he too would not utter, and I hesitate too.
Now Turnus' crime, the poet indicates, is not to kill the boy himself but in snatching the belt AND the nefas (engraved upon it). And what is nefas? What is his crime? To glory in this act that should not be gloried in (spolio ovat, gaudet potitus). Again does Aeneas himself not “sumit” take up the punishment “poenam” from the blood befouled by his own deed of not showing mercy but acting in hot revenge? Let me put it this way. The poet suggests Turnus would “wish” he might not have killed Pallas, but how is Turnus guilty of murdering Pallas, when Pallas has just gone on a rampage and heaped up piles of corpses? I don't see any opportunity for him to spare the boy who was rash in the first place to enter the battle. Not so, Aeneas, not so. Aeneas might have spared Turnus, but he was overwhelmed with passion. For which surely, too (but how much?) Turnus was to blame who like a hero at Troy would glory in a deed not to be gloried in, the killing of a stripling. But still, for a leader, and a founder of a city, more control is necessary than Aeneas displays. And as to Turnus' “crime”, might it not be overlooked because that was what was expected, that was what was done: it was the universal custom. Who did not take some trophy from battle? Who does not still? Turnus after all killed the prince of the enemy, who was indeed a leader in battle, his first, and who did glorious deeds. This, at least, might be forgiven. Moreover, too, Turnus was yet young and had been betrothed to marry Lavinia before the well curled men of the East interposed, and thus was cut off before his expected consummation and by the reneging of his father-in-law. In short Turnus is a more close comparison for the description on the belt than Pallas. Finally, Aeneas, not Turnus, had the chance “morem imponere pacis” to impose the custom of peace and did not; rather he BEAT (debellare) down the “subiectis” the humbled. In short, he SCREWED IT ALL UP. (And that's how I see many of (Augustan) Aeneas' deeds throughout. Without the wits of Odysseus, he wanders aimlessly and acts without foresight. He just follows the gods and never uses his judgement (talk about magisterialistic!!). Who was Aeneas? Who was Augustus? To me at least, Aeneas is neither endearing, nor merely ludicrous, nor again awe-inspiring, nor pitiable.)
September 2 at 8:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Finally, returning to the end of the poem, “indute spoliis meorum” is a bit strange. Does this indicate that that belt, that crime, that nefas, actually BELONGS to Aeneas and NOT Turnus? I say this for spoils are what we take of an enemy; to us they are not spoils. If we reacquire them, we have acquired our possessions and they are no longer articles of glory and triumph. But here he says “spoliis meorum”. And worse. Why not spoliis meis (my spoils)? Why “meorum” of mine? Who are “OF Aeneas'” if not the Romans who come here after? Spoils i.e. the belt (and the foul deeds they depict), belong to Aeneas, to the Romans. The spoils and glories of Rome: the Danaid statues (??), the triumphal arches; the prisoners led in chains; the prisoners led to be sacrificed (immolat) to the patres and for the patria, for the glory not of the individual but the glory of ROME, pagan Rome and not eternal Rome? And the honor with respect to Rome is the idol in “Julius Caesar”. Rome, iron Rome, that rules with a rod of iron and a sword and that will, like Babylon, be ruined by a rolling stone, from which will emerge Eternal Rome to be sure as well as Christendom, but is not itself eternal Rome, but the City of Man.
PS. A brief note on the passage from where Creusa's shade bids Aeneas leave (end Bk II)
“Quid tantum insano iuvat indulgere dolori, O dulcis coniunx? What does it help to indulge in such insane sorrow, O sweet spouse? This does not happen without the will of the gods; not right (fas) for you to carry away from here Creusa, a sojourner nor does that ruler of Olympus above allow. . . . [by the Tiber] there happy things and a kingdom and a royal spouse are portioned thee. Away tears of beloved Creusa. (Lacrimas dilectae pelle Creusae)” –Note the irony that Aeneas weeps, Creusa does not: womanly tears for her whom he love, but it is Creusa who is reasonable. He must leave behind all attachments to found not new Troy, but a new city altogether. As Virgil makes clear (elsewhere), nothing of old Troy shall be a part of the new Rome. Thus nothing is saved. He must follow the will of Zeus and leave his love to marry another for a higher cause, not mere lust (Dido). But I am uncertain how this affects the horrors above. Note the use of fas again. “Not fas” is not the same as nefas. Fas is right, just so. Nefas is unspeakably wrong. Aeneas must not follow his own desire to please himself. But does he purge himself of his passions? If so, how can he be so impassioned in the end? To pursue that inquiry I would need more direction.
PSS. Finally, a note on Rome, the destruction of which was the ending of an age and a type of the final ending. But old pagan Rome has been restored, the Phoenix is arising from the ashes. The order of the Phoenix unlike that of the Eagle, however, takes its cue from lawlessness, ab chaos ordo; and the Phoenix is a term for the one who was cast down or “the risen anointed one”. It is the (to what degree they know what they are doing I know not) Straussian project, be assured. They are rebuilding a new old Rome again. Virgil shows many other terrible aspects of the rise of empire. Certainly, there are many benefits as well, but it is very other than Christendom; not so the Phoenix, not so. I would be grateful to be shown the hope that Virgil had in the midst of the darkness which clearly he saw.
September 2 at 8:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, I didn't have a chance to respond on Pink's argument. While Pink's essay is good. I recommend doing a ctr + F on professor "McCall". While Pink is correct, I think. He is not addressing the elephant in the room. McCall points out the lunacy of fiddling while Rome burns. Do look at his lengthy comment. For IMO the "hermeunetic of reform, of renewal" is a wild goose chase that covers for the REAL issues. Not only on liberty but elsewhere. While wasting time finding contintuity (and is that eodem sensu or is that a continuity of continuous change, bit by it?). Perhaps, Daniel Lendman, wouldn't mind having a looksee at McCall's argument. It's probably better than I can do. It was informative. But still what is meant by "reform", "renewal" and "continuity"? Is it not a means to repress (effectually if not intentional) meaningful discussion about important matters that not only are disputable but concern as McCall indicates, teachings of the Church. Gratias multas (and I'll still have to look again at the Newman, but that can sit awhile).
September 2 at 8:33pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../on-religious-liberty... The link. Sorry.
RORATE CÆLI: On the coercive authority of the Church: a response to Fr. Martin...
RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 2 at 8:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Wow. Your textual analysis of the Aeneid is impressive, John, and it is certainly a much more detailed argument than my impressionistic comments way back when on the thread. Let me read what you have written again and think about it. In your admirable effort to be balanced, it seems to me you have not completely closed the door on the position I was taking, so let me keep one toe in that door for the moment.
September 2 at 8:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg A digression... A very cakey moment. Solveig Weinberg Sweet 16. Pray for Solveig, my dear friends. She is very good at math, and perhaps she will be first Solveig to go to TAC!
September 2 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Moon over Kansas.
September 2 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg O moon, O moon,
So high, so true;
Roses shed their thorns for you.
September 2 at 9:08pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick John, message me that analysis? I came to unsubscribe but I saw it and want to read it since it's pertinent to a class I'm leading.
September 2 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Jeffrey, I have not, indeed. I have just been rolling over those passages in my mind the last few days. And in the end decided to make the strongest argument I could. I do want a new direction. And I have hardly read the whole Aeneid with that much care.
September 2 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I will say this. That my Latin only REALLY improved when I started teaching Oerberg (Samantha above). And I only first really appreciated the Aeneid a few years ago. It was a piece of dreary work since 10th grade otherwise.
September 2 at 9:14pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger And Virgil's poetry translates so ill, much )worse than Homer in my opinion. It is beautiful in its conciseness and striking thoughts (which English IS NOT) .... [and my Greek is almost useless except for showing off now and again]
September 2 at 9:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Here's a lengthier bit on AUSTEN (to defend my position though not my trolling )
I have several complaints about Jane Austen. Henry James' “Portrait of a Lady” is thoroughly obnoxious and perhaps he skewed me a bit. But I do have the following problems (in particular with P and P which was my favorite).
1. The “fixing” of that ending and Darcy's selfish motive.
2. Dethroning duty in favor of affection. This is easily achieved in P of P because the arranged marriages were only about keeping the wealth together, already far degraded. This is quite the other than say Virgil's Aeneas.
3. The spiritual bankrupcy of the times. A serious flaw.
4. In P of P, is either pride or prejudice really overcome in the end?
5. Are the men, with few exceptions and those like Darcy only somewhat, anything? But that relates to number one and three and six? Who would not detest having such as one's only hope of security and income? Cruel torture indeed.
6. Finally, she lays seeds for modern feminism (which in its essence is a rejection of woman qua woman and is anti physin.)
I think these and the problem with the novel itself diminish her work in my estimation. The novel is a form that by its nature I think is ephemeral. Not that I read that many, but they wear out quickly – or I should say too quickly (it has taken many years). They present something new or amusing, with more or less depth, but they are not lasting. Even the best, their depths are plumbed and when the shortsightedness of their writers becomes clear or their less than comprehensiveness is comprehended, they lose interest. And so many authors are SO CONFUSED and confusing. That said, there are a few I would look at again. Another way to look at them is as distractions or fanning false fantasies, false idols (as Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales implies). I'll take the stories that Alban Butler writes and try not to wenden off the pilgrimage. Poetry, not so. One can savor again and again the lines of a well written poem, short or long. Similarly with drama, which in the best, ever presents something new: the old tales recast are best. But perhaps I've been reading the wrong authors. It's not that I completely disparage the art form. It presents a mirror to reality. It falls short, however, in ever inspiring wonder, or showing forth the beautiful or the true.
September 2 at 9:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe 1) What are you talking about? 2) Again, what are you talking about? There aren't any arranged marriaged in P and P. 3) What spiritual bankruptcy? 4) Yes. 5) What do you mean by "anything?" 6) Where is that WTF button we discussed earlier?
September 2 at 9:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously, about number 6. *What* are you talking about? How does she lay seeds for modern feminism in a way that is problematic?
September 2 at 9:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is this more trolling? I can't tell with you. You're almost as bad as Peregrine.
September 2 at 9:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Give up now, John. Your position has been thoroughly rebutted after what was clearly careful consideration of the individual points.
September 2 at 9:36pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe My questions are entirely sincere. I find everything John said baffling.
September 2 at 9:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #needsmoregnosis
September 2 at 9:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that was directed at you
September 2 at 9:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes I know. I can take an insult.
September 2 at 9:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia good. we can be e-friends then
September 2 at 9:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe /insulting joke.
September 2 at 9:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger her work is very worthwhile. It is not the trash James thinks, indeed better than his. But not without flaws. I am ruminating. That is all.
September 2 at 9:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict There are better and worse ways to ask questions about things one finds baffling. "What are you talking about?" is not one of the better ways.
September 2 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think by "arranged marriages" John is talking not about involuntary marriages, but ... let me channel my inner Austen, "a good and advantageous match"
September 2 at 9:40pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict John, for what it's worth, I think I agree with your points about Austen for the most part. But I don't think I agree with the claim that the novel, as an art form, necessarily falls short of poetry or drama. Is that your claim?
September 2 at 9:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger there WAS an hoped for marriage. But i have had enough of my long posts.
September 2 at 9:43pm · Like
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Adrw Lng The tone of this thread continues remain amusing 11k posts in...I love it
September 2 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I am vastly entertained. I don't even read the regular news feed any more.
September 2 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe He has pointed out some features of Austen's work, the substance of which are unclear to me. It is also unclear to me how most of what he points out constitutes criticism. I'm sincerely baffled.
September 2 at 9:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i will defer to aristotle on that. I raise an opinion i cannot defend without much work. Isak
September 2 at 9:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is there some problem with depicting a society in which an "advantageous match" was hoped for? The protagonists are never mercenary in their motives.
September 2 at 9:45pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Ruplinger reads like a bad Straussian
September 2 at 9:46pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe And really. I really want to know what you mean by this "lays the seeds of modern feminism" bit.
September 2 at 9:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Fair enough, John. I suppose I can really only call up individual novels as witnesses that I find DO measure up to great poetry and drama, and that isn't really an argument.
September 2 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And I think "what are you talking about?" is a perfectly reasonable way to engage a bad straussian.
September 2 at 9:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict I think, Samantha, that I am not very surprised that you are such a rabid fan of Jane Austen.
September 2 at 9:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Time to break out the ad hominem already? I thought you didn't like people who insulted women.
September 2 at 9:50pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict I see you are a Latin teacher. Would you allow your students to respond to one another during a discussion with any phrase along the lines of "What are you talking about?" Or would you train them to ask more pointed questions that reveal they have made the attempt to process the statement they are questioning?
September 2 at 9:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wait why is saying someone is a rabid Jane Austen fan an insult?
September 2 at 9:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you're playing dumb, friend.
September 2 at 9:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz She was a woman doing a man's work, writing a book= feminism
I kid, I kid. I honestly haven't read Austen recently or attentively enough to make any overarching claim/
September 2 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict ??? I suppose thinking I'm playing dumb is better than thinking I'm dumb, at least. It really wasn't intended as an insult, just a comment on your style. You seem like a fiery, passionate person - perhaps even like some Austen characters. Marianne Dashwood, perhaps? Again, not meant as an insult.
September 2 at 9:55pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, I didn't see Isak's comment as an insult...but maybe I am missing some history here.
But I do think we can be more pointed in our questions, and less vague in the assertions. I would like to know how Austen is, acoding the Ruplinger, laying the seeds for feminism. Is it because of how it treats marriage? That was in the era of radical changes in marriage law, especially property and divorce. At least in English influenced areas....so I could easily see it as plausible, but again my memory needs refreshing on the actual content of her work.
September 2 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, sorry. I'm getting too worked up about this, obviously.
September 2 at 9:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was reading your comments too much in conjunction with John's I suppose.
September 2 at 9:58pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Man, y'all are still talking about Austen?
September 2 at 9:59pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger that is my most tenuous claim. The society described lays the seeds. But what is feminism?
September 2 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Well THAT question should take us to 13,000...
September 2 at 10:01pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe It's John's fault. He was talking smack again. Confusing smack. With random anti-feminist stuff thrown in.
September 2 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele The duty vs. affection thing confuses me a little--I thought Austen was proposing a combination of the two more than picking one or the other. or maybe i don't understand your point...
September 2 at 10:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There is obviously both duty and affection in Austen which is one among many reasons that John's comments are....oh never mind.
September 2 at 10:11pm · Like
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Nina Rachele For example Jane's marriage to Bingley--Jane's duty to her family is met, but there is obviously disinterested affection there as well.
September 2 at 10:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well did Austen's work inspire any masterpieces like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGF5ROpjRAU
There is all you need. Only the greatest author could inspire such art.
Leonard Nimoy - The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins [FULL VERSION] - best quality
Sometimes, a body gets a hankering that only Leonard...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 2 at 10:14pm · Like · 4
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John Boyer HA!
See Translation
September 2 at 10:16pm · Like
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Nina Rachele http://www.thewire.com/.../giant-statue-wet-colin.../66918/
Giant Colin Firth Terrorizes London
People in London are currently learning the sobering lesson that Colin Firth's sex appeal as Pride and...
THEWIRE.COM
September 2 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Touche.
September 2 at 10:17pm · Like
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Anthony Crifasi On the other hand, Austen did inspire this: http://www.independent.co.uk/.../pride-and-prejudice-and...
Pride and Prejudice and Zombies casts Downton Abbey's Lily James and Sam Riley
Jane Austen devotees, take a seat before reading further.
INDEPENDENT.CO.UK
September 2 at 10:19pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well done sir, well done.
September 2 at 10:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger do not criticize Jane Austen. Repeat.
September 2 at 10:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger do not criticize Jane Austen.
September 2 at 10:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe stick with one criticism instead of six and flesh it out a little more...
September 2 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe or just do it in a way that makes some bloody sense
September 2 at 10:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or what Michael said
September 2 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Like this:
She writes about boring crap the way Albrecht Durer paints rabbits. Very well, everything in its place. But at the end of the day all you have is a painting of a rabbit. Or beetle, or whatever
September 2 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Anthony Crifasi I will admit that Pride and Prejudice is better than the Faerie Queene.
September 2 at 10:30pm · Like
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Joel HF I still prefer my Vermeer analogy.
September 2 at 10:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia But Vermeer paints people
September 2 at 10:31pm · Like
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Joel HF That's my point.
September 2 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Durer painted people too. And hands.
September 2 at 10:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but the RABBITS
September 2 at 10:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't give Austen that much credit
September 2 at 10:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia But Anthony is correct above: Pride and Prejudice is better than a lot of fiction, Faerie Queene of Dispair included
September 2 at 10:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I literally named my daughter after a character from the Faerie Queene.
September 2 at 10:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I liked Part I of the Faerie Queene
September 2 at 10:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh, my kids are all named after real people...
September 2 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird The Faerie Queene was an exquisitely painful work to read.
September 2 at 10:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Eh, it's just too long and repetitive. Part I is awesome
September 2 at 10:36pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird I think I blocked most of that reading.
September 2 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Just give me more Divine Comedy, thank you.
September 2 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele The seminar for that is like a black hole in my memory...
September 2 at 10:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel named *his* daughter after a character form the Divine Comedy
September 2 at 10:38pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele I cannot for the life of me remember what we talked about.
September 2 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Michael is right and both the arguments and Michael's well reasoned position are bringing me to his position.
September 2 at 10:38pm · Like
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Megan Baird Seriously, Nina Rachele, same here. Now, granted, our seminar WAS 15 years ago so that might be part of my problem.
September 2 at 10:39pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Ugh, just admitting that makes me feel old.
September 2 at 10:39pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Megan you only say that because you weren't there for my Paradiso seminar ::shivers:: our tutor just closed up his book and stared at us for the last fifteen minutes, it was so bad.
September 2 at 10:40pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland ^Why didn't he help you out?
September 2 at 10:40pm · Like
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Megan Baird Was your tutor Seeley?
September 2 at 10:41pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Only 3 of us had finished the reading, I think.
September 2 at 10:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Ouch.
September 2 at 10:41pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Appleby.
September 2 at 10:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Megan Baird Ouch. Yeah, I can see him doing that.
September 2 at 10:42pm · Like
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Megan Baird I had the freshman section from hell. We had ALL the strong personalities and with Seeley as our philosopher tutor, we got into constant battles that sent Seeley into giggles.
September 2 at 10:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Nina Rachele I stole Seeley's shoe in junior philosophy class once...
September 2 at 10:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia too....much...estrogen.....fight back TNET
September 2 at 10:44pm · Unlike · 3
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Megan Baird I got so angry at Sean Collins in sophomore theology so I said something mean about Augustine and he burst out laughing. And kept laughing the angrier I got.
September 2 at 10:45pm · Unlike · 2
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Catherine Ryland I remember Mr. Seeley wearing stuffed reindeer antlers for some KK prank.
September 2 at 10:45pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I wept in the bathroom most of 1st semester sophomore theology.
September 2 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I think most of us did. Well, most of us with Collins, that is.
September 2 at 10:46pm · Like
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Nina Rachele hey, there's been enough testosterone on this thread. it's time to pour tea and talk about the weather.
September 2 at 10:46pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird Then my shoulder was a nonstop bruise because I sat next to O'Reilly during sophomore philosophy.
September 2 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I had a certain classmate who fell asleep on Mr. Collins's shoulder.
September 2 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe DANNY GRIMM
September 2 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's a guess, but I'm right, aren't I?
September 2 at 10:47pm · Like
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Nina Rachele why do people sit next to tutors, I don't get it.
September 2 at 10:47pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Katie Martin... if we must name names...
September 2 at 10:47pm · Like
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Megan Baird I think I felt like I needed penance or something.
September 2 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Wow, I'm shocked there were *two* people who did that.
September 2 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I parked my ass next to freshman math tutor as soon as it became clear he would never call on me to do a prop
September 2 at 10:48pm · Unlike · 6
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Nina Rachele ::shakes head::
September 2 at 10:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I volunteered for all of them
September 2 at 10:49pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I thought I had Cain's prop system all figured out and then he mixed it up on us...
September 2 at 10:49pm · Unlike · 1
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Nina Rachele actually, i think my freshman math tutor was the only one i ever sat next to as well, haha
September 2 at 10:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I only sat next to Kolbeck, because I always hoped he would give me a hug.
September 2 at 10:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I had him when the beard was short
September 2 at 10:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Remember the Tweety Bird tie?
September 2 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland WITH the plaid shirt...
September 2 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I wish I had had Kolbeck for another class besides Freshman philosophy, blah.
September 2 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I had him for Jr. Philosophy, and it was a dream class.
September 2 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he was great for Soph Theo
September 2 at 10:51pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland You didn't weep?
September 2 at 10:52pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele very jealous...
September 2 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I never had Kolbeck at all. Made me very sad.
September 2 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Letteney for Latin was HYSTERICAL.
September 2 at 10:52pm · Like
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Nina Rachele ^haha! sounds epic
September 2 at 10:53pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird I DID have Wiker for sophomore seminar and he was amazing. Had he stayed I would have asked him to be my advisor.
September 2 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I still think Dr. Wiker should be a founding member of the post-TAC grad program.
September 2 at 10:53pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Though he might rather do something else.
September 2 at 10:54pm · Like
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Megan Baird He was fantastic. Every seminar I had with him - well, except for the Faerie Queen - was exceptional.
September 2 at 10:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland [What my recent-TAC-grad cousin just posted on her Facebook (she's teaching high school): "My freshmen are seemingly finding it impossible to grasp the fact that we can believe that God exists by anything other than faith. Is it really that difficult? I'm stumped. Thoughts?"]
September 2 at 10:57pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird Has she introduced them to St. Thomas' 5 ways?
September 2 at 10:58pm · Like
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Nina Rachele She should give them that St. Paul quote I think and have them discuss it. I think that's the best place to start...
September 2 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Yes, I think that's the problem. (I was joking by posting this -- since it goes back to one of the original discussions on this infernal thread...)
September 2 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia c'mon ladies, your memory lane chit-chat should take us over 12K in about 10 minutes
September 2 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Rom 1:20?
September 2 at 11:01pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Yes, I agree.
September 2 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I'm trying to do some Peregrine-baiting, Beetia.
September 2 at 11:02pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird All-right, more memory chit-chat. Let's take TNET over the edge.
September 2 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I can go away now...
September 2 at 11:02pm · Like
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Megan Baird Catherine, you instigator.
September 2 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Once Mr. Kolbeck almost walked out of my freshman philosophy class...
September 2 at 11:04pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia c'mon Catherine, you know that without magisterial proclamations, no one could ever know that God exists (just don't tell St. Paul that)
September 2 at 11:03pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Mr. Paietta most certainly stormed out of our freshman Theology class.
September 2 at 11:04pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland At LEAST once.
September 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Megan Baird Seeley just laughed at our philosophy class.
September 2 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Coughlin snarked in Theology.
September 2 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Stormed? I would have paid to see him storm. I had him for 3.5 hours on Tuesdays freshman year... lab and then Seminar. ooof. (RIP pi-pi)
September 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Nina Rachele we were a half hour away from the end and you could hear crickets chirping and he was like "let's stop here"
September 2 at 11:05pm · Like
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Megan Baird Try having Hartmann for sophomore lab. We nearly set the trailers on fire.
September 2 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele then me and Brian Hong did some fast talking and we ended up finishing.
September 2 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Ok! we're so close guys.
September 2 at 11:07pm · Like
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Megan Baird I feel sorry for those who never had Molly Gustin. Those hours were priceless.
September 2 at 11:07pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland One of my favorite moments was when Mr. Nieto mentioned casually that most females including humans were physically affected by the moon's phases, shocking a few (non-homeschooled) girls in the class. They raced for the computer room to verify right after class ended.
September 2 at 11:12pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele hahaha wow
September 2 at 11:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ALL right ladies. Some advice. . . . . .
September 2 at 11:09pm · Like
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Megan Baird 1 of my favorite memories? James Hanson and Fr JP Erickson making me the tester for all the chemicals, including substance D.
September 2 at 11:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I know, I never had Gustin, Neumayr, McArthur, Letteney, O'Reilly, Quackenbush, Appleby, and several others. I wonder who I did have?
September 2 at 11:09pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Oh dear, is he going to be asking for our advice or giving us advice?
September 2 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird You never had O'REILLY? I had him twice!
September 2 at 11:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger well its like this . . . . . . .
September 2 at 11:10pm · Like
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Megan Baird 12,002
September 2 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland You got it, Megan. 12,000. Now who woulda thunk it back at 1,100?
September 2 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele too late! we passed 12000 so goodnight.
September 2 at 11:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger my wife and i have a disagreement . . . .
September 2 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I'm so proud I got the 12,000th comment. I just wish it was on something more profound than O'Reilly.
September 2 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger it's seems to be an ultimatum of sorts. . . . .
September 2 at 11:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley They can only _believe_ that God exists by faith
September 2 at 11:14pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Just to be pedantic.
September 2 at 11:14pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Is about TNET?
September 2 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Now we should get to 13692
September 2 at 11:17pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger just kidding. But good on the pick up, Catherine.
September 2 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Emily Norppa I had Collins for senior lab - amazing class.
September 2 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Emily: so did I!
September 2 at 11:18pm · Like
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Megan Baird We were about 18 pages behind everyone. We barely touched the actual math in Einstein. It was delightful - all theorizing.
September 2 at 11:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I had Collins too... I spent two days demonstrating the math of the Lorenz transformations on the board to a class full of soon to be college graduates, half of whom couldn't do algebra.... sad, really
September 2 at 11:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Megan Baird Did anyone else have Shields for junior math?
September 2 at 11:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia me
September 2 at 11:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry check that, lab
September 2 at 11:21pm · Like
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Megan Baird Collins didn't do a lot of math with us in senior lab. I heard he changed his method shortly after our class.
September 2 at 11:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley I kinda wish I wasn't as out of it Senior Year. After working out all the proofs and stuff in Newton and Descartes (including various alternate proofs for things I thought didn't work), I had kinda burnt out by the time I got to the math in Senior lab.
September 2 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's a shame. It was simple, elegant and beautiful
September 2 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah: I kinda followed along half heartedly. But I could tell there was alot of amazing stuff going on.
September 2 at 11:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, I loved Dedekind and some of the other readings in Senior math.
September 2 at 11:26pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger So how exactly do you get into college without algebra (though i prefer Euclid for mathematika, things understood)?
September 2 at 11:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's funny, they do Lobochevski in Senior math, but the Gauss in the same book is much more elegant
September 2 at 11:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Lobachevski was kinda cool because he uses a whole collection of different kinds of proofs
September 2 at 11:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley His non-constructive existence proof was particularly neat: although, I spent most of the class trying to show people that it actually proved something.
September 2 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What do they do in Senior Lab now? Anyone know?
September 2 at 11:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think they've changed it since I was there.
September 2 at 11:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley When I was there, the highlights were Newton's Opticks, Maxwell and Faraday on electromagnetism and Einstein
September 2 at 11:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ferrier just taught it last year
September 2 at 11:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Rumor is they moved Darwin there and moved Einstein to math
September 2 at 11:32pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Which is kinda amusing, since Einstein has the world's most physicalist (if that's even a word) interpretation of math.
September 2 at 11:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've heard that too: Dr. Ferrier indicated to me that he and MacArthur had been working on a proposal to that effect: add genetics and QM and move Einstein to math, but I don't know when or if they implemented it.
September 2 at 11:32pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, the rumor (may it be false!) is they eliminated the electromagnetism section.
September 2 at 11:32pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley At the Aristotelian conference two years ago, Nieto was studying electromagnetism so he could teach it the upcoming year.
September 2 at 11:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I think they should keep Faraday/Maxwell
September 2 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I don't see how you do relativity w/o it, myself.
September 2 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Take c as a postulate
September 2 at 11:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Say just curious. Has anyone heard that Jacob Klein was an esoteric a la Strauss?
September 2 at 11:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know but in my experience Johnnies have strong Heideggerian inclinations, especially when reading Aristotle.
September 2 at 11:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Is Heidegger an esoteric philosopher now?
September 2 at 11:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley Maybe not intentionally.
September 2 at 11:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley And he forgot to include an exoteric meaning.
September 2 at 11:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Haha!
September 2 at 11:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger as one who hasn't studied Heideger, what does that mean?
September 2 at 11:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, seriously, my intention was to indicate their apparent intellectual inclinations, not to directly answer the Straussian question.
September 2 at 11:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley For one thing, they often seem to try to distance the understanding of Aristotle from Aquinas's positions.
September 2 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Out of curiosity, do St. John grads have the problems we have w/ getting placed in academia? I do know they have a similar reputation (earned or not) for arrogance.
September 2 at 11:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia they have good taste
September 2 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Klein was a student of Heidegger, no?
September 2 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes.
September 2 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But they tend to obfuscate the clear passages in Aristotle to match their readings of the more obscure passages.
September 2 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (And I may be slightly biased by interactions with one particularly loud Johnnie.)
September 2 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF From what I've heard, Johnnies have more variation amongst them, as St. John's itself has less of an official position and is more of a straight up great books school. Of course, St. John's does take a position by choosing what to read and all that, but less so than TAC, I think.
September 2 at 11:43pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger I definitely have some sympathy for the Straussian inerpretation. But think Aquinas got the truth right.
September 2 at 11:44pm · Like
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Joel HF What Straussian position?
September 2 at 11:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Klein was helpful in my intellectual develpment. But Braun seems a big drop off. Johnnies are arrogant in their scepticism.
September 2 at 11:48pm · Like
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Joel HF What Straussian position were you referring to, John Ruplinger?
September 2 at 11:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Position?
September 2 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joel HF Interpretation, that is.
September 2 at 11:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Averroes, Machiavelli, Nietzche: i don't know if they are wrong.
September 2 at 11:57pm · Like
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Emily Norppa I know that the senior lab program was in flux when I was there. Collins put much more of an emphasis on Maxwell than the other sections did.
I feel like I read Einstein without understanding him. Although, to be fair, that was true of quite a bit of the curriculum senior year.
September 2 at 11:57pm · Like
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Tom Malone Isak, I had to scroll a *WHOLE FIVE MINUTES* to find where you mentioned me. I hate you.
To the lot of you, things of this nature are best suited for classrooms, oratories, or whiskey bars. That is all.
September 2 at 11:59pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Honestly, i need to spend more time on Aquinas. I find the greats very helpful. Straussians not so much.
September 3 at 12:00am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger by that i mean only in their (Aver,Mach, Strauss) interpretation. My good friend and mentor is trying to refute their latest and having trouble. He is much brighter than I. And no one else is trying.
September 3 at 12:20am · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird I disagree, Tom Malone, things of this nature are totally suited to TNET.
September 3 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And I don't think the addition of whiskey consumption to this thread would result in a very noticeable difference.
September 3 at 12:17am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict More songs, maybe.
September 3 at 12:17am · Like
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Edward Langley Isak Benedict I've regularly consumed adult beverages (especially whisky) while posting to this thread: so any difference it could make it has already made.
September 3 at 12:28am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict That was certainly one of my intended meanings.
September 3 at 12:29am · Like
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Megan Baird Oh, songs...yes, there can never be too many of those...
September 3 at 12:35am · Like
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John Ruplinger It's partly why I hope Jeffrey Bond would meet him. They have both grappled with the Straussians and have similar dispositions. Both love Plato (not to be confused with Platonism).
September 3 at 12:39am · Like
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Isak Benedict Most of the S. John's graduates I've encountered have been absolutely delightful. If there's a reputation for arrogance there too, I still say it's not a fair universal.
September 3 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Here's the real question. If St. John's College graduates are called Johnnies, why are Thomas Aquinas College graduates not called Tommies?
September 3 at 12:49am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Much more fun than the common and awkward "TAC-er."
September 3 at 12:50am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We could be the "Tackiers"
September 3 at 12:51am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I only know one Johnny personally and he is a great guy. But the conditions are there. Another like school exudes arrogant scepticism.
September 3 at 12:54am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, no.
September 3 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John, do you mean the school itself? Its administration? Its philosophy? Surely not its graduates.
September 3 at 1:02am · Like
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John Ruplinger Langley from Shimer!?
September 3 at 1:05am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger philosophy.
September 3 at 1:04am · Like
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Isak Benedict I want to be called a Tommy. It sounds kinda tough. Like Tommy guns.
September 3 at 1:07am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger They are sceptics and there are few so arrogant as they. Ironic fact.
September 3 at 1:08am · Like
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Edward Langley John, not sure I understand the question.
September 3 at 1:10am · Like
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John Ruplinger Klein was friends with Strauss but they were not in agreement. They were both students of Heidegger. There is a rumor floating about that Klein too was an esoteric. I don't see it. That is all.
September 3 at 1:15am · Like
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Edward Langley I haven't read much of Klein.
September 3 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Eva Brann on the other hand appears very sceptic.
September 3 at 1:29am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Do you mean Eva Brann? I doubt St. John's hired Hitler's wife.
September 3 at 1:20am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
September 3 at 1:20am · Like
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John Ruplinger no
September 3 at 1:22am · Like
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John Ruplinger She was the head at St. John's for a long time.
September 3 at 1:24am · Like
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Brann
Eva Brann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eva Brann (born 1929) is a former dean (1990–1997) and the longest-serving tutor (1957–present) at St. John's College, Annapolis, and a 2005 recipient of the National Humanities Medal.
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 3 at 1:24am · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley "In her early years at St. John's, she was very close to Jacob Klein. After Klein died, Brann increasingly assumed his role as the defining figure of St. John's, the St. John's program, and the continuing dialogue with the Great Books represented by the program."
September 3 at 1:24am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
September 3 at 1:25am · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Honestly, I just drink and look in from time to time. And I can't believe...
September 3 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Someone post some links to some good Eva Brann writings.
September 3 at 1:28am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Of the many cheap beers on offer at TJ's, only Simpler Times is truly undrinkable. #nametag
September 3 at 1:29am · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh Matthew - I remember when some friends of mine tried to get into Simple Times because it was so cheap at Trader Joe's. We all found it rather - well - bad.
September 3 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And, yes, "Straussians" make great debating partners.
September 3 at 1:29am · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/author/eva-brann
Eva Brann, Author at The Imaginative Conservative
THEIMAGINATIVECONSERVATIVE.ORG
September 3 at 1:29am · Like · Remove Preview
Matthew J. Peterson Not that I need sparring partners. All I have to do is post a pic of a cheap-o beer and I get flak.
But this - this is the price of TNETdom
September 3 at 1:31am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict The flak attack from the Tommy gun!!!
September 3 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti TNET has become my entire Facebook experience. I'm being serious.
September 3 at 1:32am · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away - I used to favor Lucky Lager as my cheap swill of choice.
September 3 at 1:32am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley When in Texas, I generally go for Shiner.
September 3 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I did have a little silver patron earlier, not that that's all that - but just a pinch of courage for the TNET.
September 3 at 1:33am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I've pounded more Milwaukee's Best than you could possibly imagine.
September 3 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson See, I don't mind shiner or yuengling as cheap swill beers.
September 3 at 1:33am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Simpler Times is better than other cheap beers, and has a stronger alcohol content....well depending whether one is speaking of Sipler Times Lager or Pilsner...one is okay when cold, the other slips behind PBR
September 3 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Some of their limited-distribution beers are not bad at all.
September 3 at 1:33am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Beast
September 3 at 1:34am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Busch, too. Lots of Busch. Oy vey.
September 3 at 1:34am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ouch. If we're confessing, there was also a Mickey's malt liquor period of my young life.
September 3 at 1:35am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz To be honest I used to buy it as beer I would let others drink...for good cheapo Trader Joes beer, Trader Jose's Dark was actually good
September 3 at 1:35am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger In San Antonio, you must check out Blue Star. Perhaps the best brew ever and I WAS a brewmeister
September 3 at 1:36am · Like
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Edward Langley I think I've drunk two Bud Lights . . . but I generally forgo cheap beer.
September 3 at 1:36am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pater Edmund needs to shrive us of our beer-y sins.
September 3 at 1:36am · Like
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Edward Langley And just drink it less frequently
September 3 at 1:36am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I once drank 18 Tecates in one night once
September 3 at 1:37am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (Y'all should come over and have some of this stout I brewed up, BTW)
September 3 at 1:37am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think I had Blue Star and liked it - how long has it been around?
September 3 at 1:37am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti In high school I drank 2 40s of Colt 45 and passed out behind the Rustic Canyon Community Center.
September 3 at 1:38am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I once went to confession immediately after going to a beer festival...is it shriven if you are still inebriated while confessing inebriation? (Ok it wasn't that bad...just a bit tipsy)
September 3 at 1:38am · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Joshua Kenz: now we're getting real. Tecate is or used to be one of those youthful beverages that when the moon is right you can just...
September 3 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger brewing my most famous beer lead to wedding bands . . . . .
September 3 at 1:39am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay 16th birthday...9 beers, a shot of Everclear, a shot of Vodka, a shot of Kahula, and a shot of somethin I know not what.... my brother passed out at that point, and I went to bed.....what was funny were the mad libs we had tried doing while drunk....
September 3 at 1:39am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti I once put money on the Kentucky Derby and then popped into a confessional on Lexington Ave to ask if it was a sin to bet on the ponies. I believe the priest, A Dominican, told me he wasn't sure. LOL. True story.
September 3 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti TNET, so epic.
September 3 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Now I need a drink....
September 3 at 1:40am · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley No, unless you're spending money that you had a duty to spend on necessities.
September 3 at 1:40am · Like
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John Ruplinger A while. Joey brewed a double bock 'ipa ' that was amazing.
September 3 at 1:41am · Like
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Edward Langley My son appreciates that last drop in the empty IPA bottle.
September 3 at 1:41am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Once after a few adult beverages under the bridge, my companions forsook going down unto the pit on account of gang bangers hanging out there.
I went anyhow. They were drinking cheap beer and tequila from a central sacred bottle. We communed and I partook. Some girl asked me my name, afraid I'd forget it. Some dude showed me scars from where he took bullets.
Solidarity all around. They all signed the bottle with gang names. I went back to campus and my mind fell apart like a 2 year old who has been up hours past bedtime via candy and soda.
September 3 at 1:43am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson No TACer remained with me, as I recall.
September 3 at 1:44am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There are time when young when you just have more juice than the booze and can outrun it. The human body is amazing.
September 3 at 1:46am · Like
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Joshua Kenz There we go... nothing like Absynthe!
September 3 at 1:47am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I dunno, a good dram of Lagavulin is up there.
September 3 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (unless you refer to alcohol content)
September 3 at 1:48am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think drinking JD and other cheap whiskies is the most amazing thing I recall. I mean, finishing a bottle?!? Whaaa..?!? And then walking around campus and eating cereal while talking to people about great books. Lord save us.
September 3 at 1:50am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Lagavulin is a fave. You guys had Ardbeg?
September 3 at 1:49am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Mhm
September 3 at 1:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger Absynthe aint what it used to be. Ya know
September 3 at 1:50am · Like
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Edward Langley But not in a while.
September 3 at 1:50am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Best conversation are whilst imbibing. I remember giving a talk at the DSPT, and the enjoying Absynthe afterwards with Fr. Michael... great conversing drink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY
Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Philospher's Song
An oft-forgotten gem from the Pythons.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Christopher Luke Trevilla In Vino.. bbuuuuuurp... itas!
September 3 at 1:50am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Ruplinger, the wormwood content is the same. Just no leaded glas anymore
September 3 at 1:50am · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Joshua Kenz I've had some great absynthe - but not enough over time to figure out the vibe. Feels like a summery drink to me still, but I've enjoyed it.
September 3 at 1:51am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No lead. No more.
September 3 at 1:51am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz To be honest, I would prefer Bourbon, but I am poor and I have this at hand (bought it and forgot about it a while ao)
You need a few glasses to feel it out
September 3 at 1:53am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley My go to single malt is Laphroaig 10yr. Mostly because it's reasonably priced for such drinks. Otherwise, I get a decent blend: something by Johnny Walker, or Black Bottle (currently).
September 3 at 1:54am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson One of my fav drinking stories: we left TAC to go ... boating ... boating ... on Lake Piru.
Sausages. BBQ. And bricks of cheap beer. Sun. Illegal swimming. Good friends.
We pulled in to the station to refill our cups. We were in our early 20s. We shone like the sun. Empties were all over. We were wet from swimming. No life jackets. Man on the bow. Breaking every rule. So they pull us over.
And a dear friend. Who shall not be named. Driving the boat (named the "Jackie Treehorn", because it held a lot of water in that town, and you don't hold crap Lebowski).
He was asked how many he'd had. His lie-ish answer, trying to low lowball but remain realistic re the day? To the police on the lake?
"I've had...5 or 6...officer."
September 3 at 2:00am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson How are we all still alive?
September 3 at 1:57am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And in how many ways is this Thread going to destroy what little chance I had of tenure anywhere?!?
September 3 at 1:58am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The boat police let us go. Heh.
September 3 at 2:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Another amazing single malt is any bottle put out by Kilchoman: noticeably peaty, but not overpowering. It's quite amazingly well balanced. Only problem is, you can't find a bottle for <$50
September 3 at 2:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Need to try that.
September 3 at 2:01am · Like
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John Ruplinger [cv filler: "whether straussians are crypto thomists?"]
September 3 at 2:03am · Like
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Edward Langley I should maneuver myself to become the world's expert on the philosophy of scotch.
September 3 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Publications are publications.
September 3 at 2:05am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I'm sure there's a tenure-track position in that field somewhere.
September 3 at 2:05am · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps University of St. Andrews?
September 3 at 2:06am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Best 2 translations of the Politics anyone?
September 3 at 2:19am · Like
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Edward Langley I've always liked Carnes Lord, but that's because of what Aristotle says at the end of book 2 of the Metaphysics,
September 3 at 2:19am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I can't think of a second translation of Politics, but I like Sach's translation of the Nic. Ethics.
September 3 at 2:20am · Like
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John Ruplinger Lord is Lord: so say the Straussians exoterically of course. But what they really say. . . . .
September 3 at 2:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger "TRANSLATION!?" SB
September 3 at 2:31am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger actually that would have been in Greek if it were SB
September 3 at 2:29am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Carnes Lord and Benejamin Jowetts (as in Barnes Completes works of Aristotle) are the only two I have read...unless you count Moerbeke....
September 3 at 2:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger i have Loeb and Lord. Jowetts is terrible without the Greek, terrible. He even skips "uninteresting" sections.
September 3 at 2:39am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I agree, so I have relied on Lord. I only used the Barnes because I had it, it was usually, where different, better than Ross, and sometimes you need a more readable, though less accurate text, as a primer before, say, reading one of the hyperliteral translations passed around at TAC
September 3 at 2:41am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Barnes himself is annoying as hell.
September 3 at 2:42am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger The Loeb translators are meant to be an aid as I understand. They are poor otherwise. My favorite Greek translators are Grene, Lattimore, Hobbes, Dryden et al., and the Straussians. Chapman's Homer too. They are great unless you know better in which case let me know.
September 3 at 3:04am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer I would say it also depends on the work.
September 3 at 2:47am · Like
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John Boyer I can only speak to the Aristotle translations from the Loeb. The Physics translation is horrible. The Posterior translation is rather good.
September 3 at 2:48am · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz I like Lattimore's translation of the New Testament actually...wouldn't use it in theological argument though
September 3 at 2:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger Grene and Lattimore have mastery of English and Greek. They are literal and try to keep the flavor and poetry as well. Very admirable.
September 3 at 2:52am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Lattimore; his NT is outstanding
September 3 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua why wouldn't you use it in argument?
September 3 at 2:53am · Like
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John Ruplinger Grene's Herodotus is just far better than anyone else.
September 3 at 2:56am · Like
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Joshua Kenz 1. People are dismissive of it (for Catholics, no imprimatur, for protestants I have encountered "he is treating it as literature)
2. People have complained to me of the difficulty of finding the verses
3. I generally find people unfamiliar with it, and hence less willing to trust it
September 3 at 2:57am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante those are all bullshit reasons except maybe the first one, for Catholics
September 3 at 2:57am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante his NT is so much better than most of what Protestants use, I can tell you that
September 3 at 2:59am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Better than what most of what Catholic use too!
September 3 at 2:59am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I've never had a problem with TAC translations.
September 3 at 2:59am · Like
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John Boyer I have had one problem. One prof always gives me grief if I say "without intertwining."
September 3 at 3:01am · Like
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Edward Langley The proper solution to that is to return the compliment.
September 3 at 3:01am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Yeah...
September 3 at 3:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Especially the RSV-CE (seriously, other than the longer ending of Mark, 90% of the changes are "brothers > brethren") Daniel Lendman, if he remembers, can confirm that when doing Aquinas on the Pauline Epistles even the DR was more faithful to the Greek (NA-27)than the RSV-CE, despite being a "translation of a translation"
Though I would note the RSV-CE is worse than the protestant RSV, in that it was based on an earlier version of the RSV that was a looser translation. The later version tightened up standard a bit, but coyright issues, not actually concern over accuracy, affected the editorial decision of those that made the RSV-CE...the most overrated translation in Catholic circles....oh how I annoyed my tutor at TAC by refusing to use it (though I had it, along with the DR at every clas).
September 3 at 3:03am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I sort of wish I was much better at Greek (let alone Hebrew, Syriac, etc) The consensus nowadays is that only a group effort, a committee can make a scholarly translation. But I think that is BS...it makes a disjointed, conflicted and often ecclesiatico-political driven translation. A unified voice can be worth something. So I would love to translate the bible as such....but I am not nearly competent enough in the Greek to even attempt the NT...
Of course I am sure we all think we can do better than the other guy....
September 3 at 3:07am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The St Jerome one man method is given short shrift.
September 3 at 3:10am · Like
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John Ruplinger "The New Jerusalem Bible" by commitee. . . . . . I like accountability too.
September 3 at 3:16am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Joshua, not even a rough translation just to start off?
September 3 at 3:15am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger I would be suprised if the DR didnt at least consult the Greek (NT).
September 3 at 8:32am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer I took a reading class on the Gospel of John about five years ago. Some of the easiest Greek I've encountered.
September 3 at 3:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, the DR is a shockingly accurate translation. I say shockingly, of course, because it is a translation of a translation.
September 3 at 3:30am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I totally agree that committee translations are a bad idea. Robert Alter's translations of parts of the OT are awesomely good; I hope he translates the rest of it too.
September 3 at 4:54am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Ideal English Bible: OT Alter; NT Lattimore; format something like this: http://www.bibliotheca.co/#about
Welcome
Bibliotheca is an alternative to our customary Bibles, and is meant solely to reestablish the powerful literary thrust of...
BIBLIOTHECA.CO
September 3 at 4:57am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF I cannot believe a TAC alumnus is complaining about "Simple Times." When I was there TACers would drink such poisonously cheap stuff that not two could drink today and live! Where is the skunked Milwaukee's Beast? The Steel Reserve? And such liquors as have no name and are bought in plastic jugs at Safeway?
September 3 at 7:41am · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Early times. Good enough for Walker Percy, good enough for drinking on a rocky dirt patch.
September 3 at 7:38am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Of course, I mostly just whisked the elect off to my beach house where Grama would foot the bill for Tanqueray and craft beer.
September 3 at 7:40am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson For the Politics I'm thinking triangulating between Lord and Sachs is probably ideal but there are a few out there I haven't even cracked.
September 3 at 7:43am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Nothing like steeling one's reserve, as a friend used to say.
September 3 at 7:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Vons Charcoal filtered vodka. 'nuff said
September 3 at 8:27am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm kind of bummed I had to sleep through the Scotch conversation. I had much to add, but, as they say, TNET waits for no man
September 3 at 8:37am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Joel, did you ever suffer through the Tijuana cigarettes? I'm surprised we all don't have cancer
September 3 at 8:38am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or woman. I'm still sad my weak, tired body made me miss my chance to talk Anna Karenina with Katie Duda.
September 3 at 8:39am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia man as in species, not gender.... touchy much?
September 3 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Why do Catholic liberal arts people talk so much about scotch and Russian tragic novels? Too much math perhaps?
September 3 at 8:46am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was concurring. You are the one who is touchy.
September 3 at 8:48am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I am saddened by the recent deterioration of our e-friendship, Michael.
September 3 at 8:50am · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe What started with such a promising mutual admission of jerkishness has become mutual mistrust and suspicion.
September 3 at 8:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia I just for you I was going to speak in gender inclusive language ALL DAY. (the above comment was a joke, FWIW):
"man or woman, by nature, desires to know"
September 3 at 8:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Please don't. Everyone hates me enough already.
September 3 at 8:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia name him or her that hates you
September 3 at 9:00am · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I always talk tragic Russian literature, while thinking to myself I should have stuck with the math
September 3 at 9:00am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe EVERYONE. Just kidding. Everyone is nice.
September 3 at 9:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia He or she has probably just had too much TNET.
Katie: you can say that twice....
September 3 at 9:01am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, Katie, don't you think I'm right about Stiva?
September 3 at 9:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've got about five minutes, let's settle this.
September 3 at 9:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And we have all had too much TNET, Michael.
September 3 at 9:03am · Like
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Katie Duda I'm trying to find that comment, Samantha. But if I remember correctly, yes.
September 3 at 9:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe HAHA you'll never find it
September 3 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia find? don't ever hit previous comments....
September 3 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's a Lewisian rabbit hole you'll never find the end of
September 3 at 9:07am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I said that Stiva is worthless, and Dolly is solely responsible for everything good in their marriage and family, basically
September 3 at 9:07am · Like
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Katie Duda I thought fixing my footnotes was bad...
September 3 at 9:07am · Like · 2
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Katie Duda More or less, yes. She's also the one who can be happy with the family. (I am thinking her conversation with Anna most specifically)
September 3 at 9:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I found Dolly *much* more interesting the last time I read AK (first time since becoming a mother)
September 3 at 9:11am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe five minutes are up. see y'all.
September 3 at 9:12am · Like
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Adrw Lng One word: chartreuse
September 3 at 9:16am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg or, in my case, not enough.
September 3 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Is there such a thing as too much math?
September 3 at 9:48am · Like
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Michael Beitia like philosophically?
September 3 at 9:48am · Like
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Katie Duda What does *too much philosophically* mean? Or is it just a way to say you can't have too much of a study of quantity?
September 3 at 10:29am · Like
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Katie Duda (I'm avoiding those footnotes)
September 3 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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John Kunz Speaking of math / this keeps showing up in my feed...
September 3 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Katie, it was to distinguish from too much math as in "I have twenty pages of partial differential equations to solve" too much.
Is it possible to know and study too much math? for most people, there is no math more difficult than adding (I suppose occasional percents, if one were to bother figuring out sales tax). So if we're going to study *any* math, outside of learning how to count, can there be too much?
September 3 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I think it requires moderation. Especially in youth who are excellent at it.
September 3 at 11:08am · Like
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John Ruplinger It can lead them to think that is the only real truth because it is easier to gras p.
September 3 at 11:11am · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . . . . . . or
September 3 at 11:12am · Like
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Michael Beitia wasn't it Poincare who said "the pure mathematician studies mathematics not because it is useful, but because he delights in it, and he delights in it because it is beautiful"
September 3 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia IMHO, however, mathematics is the most knowable science in and of itself. So if we are to be knowers, it is probably best that we start by knowing the most knowable. I told my algebra students (back in the way back when I taught math) that disliking algebra was a sign of good taste. If it is unintelligible, there's probably a problem with how it is presented. Mathematics is a good counter to skepticism
September 3 at 11:34am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger . . . . . (they become Beitia's). But seriously the young mathmetician should be kept away until he is better rounded. After that, it is fine. It reminds me of my struggles trying to balance a curriculum where most of the board members were mathemeticians.
September 3 at 11:34am · Like
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Michael Beitia when my wife's cousin was getting a degree in Biology I used to tease him saying:
Biology is applied chemistry, chemistry is applied physics, and physics is applied math. So you're studying applied applied applied math. Skip the middle man.
September 3 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BUT MB. That is the problem. Algebra is not taught well.
September 3 at 11:36am · Like
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Michael Beitia it is an absolute failure. The Alg. I book I had started off with "there are collections of things, some of these things are called sets" WTF!? how about we start with the knowable first, like, IDK, COUNTING?
September 3 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I showed some students how the quadratic formula is just a generalization from "completing the square" - minds blown! They were truly surprised that it came from somewhere
September 3 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I dont say no math. Just not excessive. Most students shouldnt do calculus in HS. ESPECIALLY the way it is taught.
September 3 at 11:39am · Like
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Michael Beitia hah I had 4 years in high school (last year was independent study)
September 3 at 11:40am · Like
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John Ruplinger you are an exception. I said most. AND IT IS TERRIBLY taught.
September 3 at 11:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia horribly. worse taught than most subjects. It generally boils down to memorization for most students, and no notion of the organic development of mathematical ideas. If I was more energetic, like Peterson, I'd actually try to do something about it. But I'm not. I just work with my kids.
September 3 at 11:46am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Seriously. If you dont know the derivation of the quad. formula, what is the point? What you "know"? I know a principal that introduces Euclid well and with interest in 7th grade.
September 3 at 11:50am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger BUT setting aside how badly it is taught, it is an art. There are others that take more time. There are more than 1 (or 2) liberal arts.
September 3 at 11:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia 4 are math, thank you (and one could claim logic too.... I think there may be an argument there)
September 3 at 12:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . i have a problem with people like you. You are proving my point. They think everything is math. . . . It all becomes numbers which leads to one inevitable conclusion
September 3 at 12:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger as Walker Percy might say.
September 3 at 12:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . "TO THE GAS CHAMBERS!" (with you non mathemeticians )
September 3 at 12:26pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia yes yes to the gas chambers
#unlessyouhavegnosis
September 3 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger logic is not math, you usurper. It is precisely YOU people that have ruined the world . You . . . . .
September 3 at 12:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . you
September 3 at 12:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . NAZIS /TNET
September 3 at 12:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia GODWINS LAW : 12263
September 3 at 12:14pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger but does it count really? If you were intentionally trying to allude to godwin's law in jest?
September 3 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland No, it doesn't.
September 3 at 12:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what do I have to do to get called a Nazi?
#Hitleriangnosis
September 3 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I know!!
September 3 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Daniel, do you have Hitleriangnosis? Help me out here
September 3 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But I am in Austria and that is highly impolitic.
September 3 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Re: math. I learned (at least some) algebra, forgot all of it before I went to TAC, had to learn it all over again from scratch basically, forgot it again immediately, and it will have to study it from practically zero if I ever decide to take the GRE.
Some people just have a greater aptitude for mathematical disciplines. My aunt was the same way. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but some things just make more sense to other people.
September 3 at 12:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, I'm an Aryan.
September 3 at 12:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fair enough.
Freshman year at TAC Ms. Zedlick said my roommate had a nice German name. He told her it was Austrian. She said "same thing"
September 3 at 12:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland NOT the same thing.
September 3 at 12:26pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland At all.
September 3 at 12:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman More or less.
September 3 at 12:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tell that to a Prussian, I suppose
September 3 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Was she just trying to annex Austria with one remark?
September 3 at 12:26pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia hahahaha
September 3 at 12:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but to the point of math, Catherine, I think it is a grave defect in the teacher.
September 3 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland That could be.
September 3 at 12:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or the text, in the case of most high schools
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or both. there's sooo much blame to throw around
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am Prussian and Austrian.
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland But I've watched some people struggle FAR less with the same problems/processes. Perhaps it was their previous preparation.
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But the Austrians ruled Germany for many centuries.
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland But not at the same time and in the same respect, Daniel, right?
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia probably. And some people are just smarter than others (re: math)
September 3 at 12:29pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Yep.
September 3 at 12:30pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland But some people are smarter than others (re:words)
September 3 at 12:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia until that whole defenestration problem...
September 3 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Some people "get" poetry, and often not the same people who "get" math.
September 3 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland and vice versa.
September 3 at 12:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I suppose meter has nothing to do with poetry right?
September 3 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland There were only a VERY few at TAC when I was there who were truly excellent in both areas.
September 3 at 12:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #allismath
September 3 at 12:31pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland #mathgnosis
September 3 at 12:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia full circle (see math reference)
September 3 at 12:32pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I'm sure I'm repeating comments and themes, but that's a requirement of TNET.
September 3 at 12:33pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Who defenestrated whom?
September 3 at 12:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger only ever had 2 students who couldn't get algebra in MS. They were . . . . . well the world needs ditch diggers.
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TNET has no requirements. TNET requires all.
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the protestants in Prague threw some Catholics out a window.
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland aha.
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like
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Katie Duda TWICE!
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I suppose this is a bad time to stump for my new political party: UPDP?
September 3 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Oh, as in a Defenestration problem.
September 3 at 12:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's more physics and physiology than math, though....
September 3 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland UPDP?
September 3 at 12:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia don't ask
September 3 at 12:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Everyone can get poetry too. That also is mistaught badly. And mixing in complete excrement doesnt help one get it. But i do agree with CR
September 3 at 12:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "United People's Defenestration Party"
We would like to throw politicians out windows
September 3 at 12:36pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I'm in.
September 3 at 12:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Poetry is rarely read out loud, and that's a problem, but most kids are not trained to read out loud, and are very very very bad at it.
September 3 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Yes, I agree.
September 3 at 12:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland When I taught writing, I could tell which students had parents who read to them aloud. Their writing ability reflected their ability to hear correct and beautiful words and phrases. (Or inability as the case may have been.)
September 3 at 12:45pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia reading aloud is important in my house. (as is constantly having to tell children to SLOW DOWN - you're reading to someone else, not to yourself aloud)
September 3 at 12:46pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Speaking of meter, I found this to be a somewhat curious but helpful book for teaching such things: http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Metrical.../dp/1582974152
Writing Metrical Poetry: Contemporary Lessons for Mastering Traditional Forms
Write poetry in the great metrical tradition of Dante,...
AMAZON.COM
September 3 at 12:53pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland I'm sure this was discussed before (what wasn't?) but I don't think meter is actually necessary for poetry, just emphasis on line.
September 3 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF A Modern Poem:
This is a
poem because
I hit
the enter key
at
random.
September 3 at 1:22pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley Too much rhyming, Joel.
September 3 at 1:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley And you just used conventional capitalization and punctuation.
September 3 at 1:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
a mOderN poeM:
thiS Is a
poeM Bec.ause,
i\ (randomly).
hit the keYboard;
-- e. lAngley
September 3 at 1:22pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF The inversion at the end is to fancy and classical. Otherwise, well done.
September 3 at 1:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Correceted that.
September 3 at 1:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley although the word order in the last line does sound too classical.
September 3 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yeah, that's what I meant. Maybe I should change my last line as well, to "at random." In fact, I think I will.
September 3 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Someone could probably write a whole essay on the power structures enforced by the conventional use of a period to end sentences.
September 3 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF e e cummings
what a
c***
September 3 at 1:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Aaugh! stupid shift+enter!
September 3 at 1:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymaga.../browse/76/4...
July 1950 : Poetry Magazine
Read the latest issue of Poetry magazine-- the oldest monthly devoted to verse in the English speaking world--...
POETRYFOUNDATION.ORG
September 3 at 1:26pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Joel HF He defies parody.
September 3 at 1:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Catherine, I think it depends on what you mean by "meter". I think a poem should have a definite rhythmic structure, but poets like Hopkins and Eliot often manage to pull that off without using the traditional grecoroman metrical schemes.
September 3 at 1:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm Latvian but really Prussian. A Coorlander. My great Uncle was a giant. 6'-7".
September 3 at 1:31pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Did you really just call E.E. Cummings what I think you did?
September 3 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hopkins developed this thing called sprung rhythm. The rhythm gets a little bit tighter, then spring open.
September 3 at 1:32pm · Like
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Joel HF I knew you were a little premature w/ that like, Langley!
September 3 at 1:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Do you really think modern poetry is just hitting the enter key at random?
September 3 at 1:33pm · Like
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Joel HF It was a modern poem.
September 3 at 1:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Eliot kind of deconstructed verse. He was trying to ride the tude of deconstruction, so as to maintain some remnant of classicism. Seems to me he succeeded, but it needs to be reconstructed.
September 3 at 1:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Not all of it. But much of it, yes.
September 3 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Although, Hopkin's claim is that it's the natural rhythm of the English language.
September 3 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And I think it can be traced back to Beowulf and such.
September 3 at 1:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I almost think modern poetry is not worth reading. Compare Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf to Pope's translation of the Illiad.
September 3 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Yeats is the one great modern poet in English
September 3 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Yeats, yes, he is, but did he not digress into occult mysticism, personally and poetically?
September 3 at 1:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Yeats is great, to be sure.
September 3 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so?
September 3 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and depends on what you mean by "occult mysticism"
September 3 at 1:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So his subject did not transport to God or the moral heights.
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Hopkins had a metrical system, whatever one thinks of it.
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hopkins: sprung rhythm.
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that wouldn't follow, Scott
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This is about to get really good
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg what wouldn't follow what?
September 3 at 1:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that Yeats' poetry doesn't rise to God or moral heights
September 3 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've never been able to get into Yeats myself.
September 3 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Yeats' subject is the journey of modern man back to some sort of unity of soul, and God most definitely makes an appearance
September 3 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Must. resist. urge.
September 3 at 1:41pm · Like
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Joel HF to post Smiths' video!
September 3 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg We can disagree on Yeats. But he was quite something.
Tolkien wrote a seminal essay on criticism titled "Beowulf, the Monsters and the Critics," in which he asserted that the philosophers of language had taken form out of stories by examing too closely the minutiae of words and letters, as if those words and letters were blocks which were once part of a tower from which you could view the ocean; but they recognized them only as blocks, and not part of this form. I think the same thing has happened to poetry.
September 3 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^agreed; and there are other problems/causes
September 3 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I sigh that kiss you,
For I must own
That I shall miss you
When you have grown.
September 3 at 1:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What other problems/causes?
September 3 at 1:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And solutions.
September 3 at 1:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So spring rhythem evidently morphed into free verse, and the silvery polish of Seamus Heaney and the like; and Virgil and the ancients, I understand, were not strict formalists either.
September 3 at 1:45pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante for one thing, a hyper-Romantic notion of poetry which so valorizes "making" that that it is concerned to have the poem "be" the act of poiesis ,and leaves aside final poetic form as a sort of constraint; this produces all kinds of things from Symbolism to "language poetry"
September 3 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yup.
September 3 at 1:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And that Yeats was not!
September 3 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Def not; Yeats as a master craftsman and it was all about the form of the made thing for him
September 3 at 1:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Irish poets, learn your craft, and all that...
September 3 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante learn your trade, sing whatever IS WELL MADE, scorn the sort now growing up...
September 3 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ...all out of shape from toe to top
September 3 at 1:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg The form of some of the ancient Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is interesting. The parallelism, where the thoughts come in threes; it is kind of a free verse, definitely poetry and not prose, and is compelling emotionally and logically, rhetorically. I'll try to find an example.
September 3 at 1:51pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and Edward what can I do to help you get into Yeats
September 3 at 1:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Of course, the really great mathemeticians are nothing but a bunch of lazy poets, but much smarter than the average poet.
September 3 at 1:53pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not sure, perhaps I haven't read the right poems.
September 3 at 1:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, perhaps the great poets were just lazy mathematicians.
September 3 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes. Lazy and stupid.
September 3 at 1:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley who traded rigor for ease.
September 3 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward how about this:
http://www.bartleby.com/148/3.html
3. An Irish Airman foresees his Death. Yeats, W. B. 1919. The Wild Swans at Coole
BARTLEBY.COM
September 3 at 1:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger random entry >> some "poetry. And I like Hopkin's meter. Is it modern or a restoration, do you think?
September 3 at 1:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Or, who had to find out easy things the hard way.
September 3 at 1:55pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante btw this "poets are lazy mathematicians" is bullshit. A computer can do higher math; it cannot write a real poem
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Scott Weinberg Or, who had to take that road less travelled.
September 3 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Bull**** -- is that a metaphor?
September 3 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Thank you, JA!
September 3 at 1:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward I'm waiting for news of your conversion
September 3 at 1:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley one swallow doth not a summer make
September 3 at 2:00pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I expected that. So here:
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E910001-055.html
Meditations in Time of Civil War
The works by W. B. Yeats are in the public domain. This electronic text is available with prior consent of the CELT programme for purposes of private or academic research and teaching.
UCC.IE
September 3 at 2:01pm · Like
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Joel HF "A computer can do higher math" much as Siri can read a poem.
September 3 at 2:01pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Siri can read one; it can't *write* one
September 3 at 2:02pm · Like
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Joel HF Give her some time: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Can-YOU-spot-ROBOT-Website...
September 3 at 2:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If a poet and a mathematician were stranded on the floor of the Grand Canyon, the mathemetician would build a rocket to propel himself out in a minute. The poet instead will grab his pencil, and his donkey, and begin the slow trek upwards, winding to and fro, up the chiseled path, drawing his sights upward from the marred and craggy dust, toward the beauty of the distant view that God has pulled together. In the end, he will meet up with the mathematician, and they will have risen the same number of feet, their end point each being the same distance from their beginning.
September 3 at 2:06pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Mathematicals are the least rich of beings of reason; as opposed to the figures of poetic intelligence, which are the richest.
September 3 at 2:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, I just did a couple of those "poems": the fact that 40% of voters thought that the obvious computer-generated poems were written by humans says something.
September 3 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF How's that? JA Escalante
September 3 at 2:11pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg What, again, is a mathematical? Is that something that can be prescribed to a mathematical equation?
September 3 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF That the Turing test has also been subject to rampant grade inflation?
September 3 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But if you ask the computer who wrote the computer poem, they get it right every time.
September 3 at 2:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What is a mathematical?
September 3 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Makes me think that e e cummings was really a robot.
September 3 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A mathematical is an ens rationis.
September 3 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg a thing of reason?
September 3 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley A thing that exists in matter and motion but is considered as separated from matter and motion.
September 3 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I still do not get it.
September 3 at 2:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Like something you can measure?
September 3 at 2:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are mathematicals the things which are measured by mathematics?
September 3 at 2:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, a physical rectangle is a shape in the window; a mathematical rectangle is that shape as considered without its sensible accidents.
September 3 at 2:13pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, as my surname is Austrian/Bavarian, I will say this from my limited experience...you know Austrians from Germans by the better food and that they are midway between being laid back (Italians) and uptight workaholics (Germans north of Bavaria)....the virtue is in the mean....
September 3 at 2:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley (and without any of the imperfection that comes from its real existence)
September 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg OK, so a poem is a mathematical of things not measured by math.
September 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There is a joke about Bavarians: It is said that they posses the efficiency of the Austrians and the culture of the Prussians.
September 3 at 2:14pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg But math is measuring the same thing, but just in a different way.
September 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given, however, that BMW is in Bavaria and a huge economic hub, at least the first part of that joke seems questionable.
September 3 at 2:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley I find the sure-fire way to annoy a German or an Austrian is to claim that Mozart was either an Austrian or a German
September 3 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (at least it works on my wife 95% of the time)
September 3 at 2:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Austria, however, is Germany's Canada.
September 3 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Though unlike Canada, Austria has a glorious history. Far in the past.
September 3 at 2:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia JAson, don't dis on the mathematicians.
September 3 at 2:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley I take the fact that this thread has never seriously discussed music as a sign that we all agree that Mozart was the greatest composer ever.
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bullshit is metagism
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley #tacdogmas
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Also, all you guy drank crap at TAC. James Layne and I didn't drink swill as students. We made Margaritas, with 1800 as a bare minimum (Cazadores though was my favorite), and debated Gran Marnier versus Contreau
Beer was not commonly drunk outside what the school gave us, but Newcastle and Sierra Nevada were the standby there.
We bough nice Bourbons too, everything from Knob Creek (my standby) and Makers Mark (James Layne's) to Bookers
I only went to drinking swill as a poor grad student....
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^statement 100% convertible
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So a poem is like a mathematical for a different kind of form.
September 3 at 2:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^?
September 3 at 2:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I meant (by convertible) metagism is bullshit
September 3 at 2:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, Bavaria was still very Catholic when I was there, including a higher than Ireland Mass attendance rate (but considering Ireland is an apostate country now, not surprising)...I don't see the Prussian culture at all.....
September 3 at 2:18pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Scott, you seem stuck on trying to equate poetry as some sort of different form of mathematics, but I'm not really sure that's so.
September 3 at 2:18pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Cazadores and gran marnier
September 3 at 2:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Mathematicians talking poetry is like poets talking math.
September 3 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante a poem isn't analogous to a mathematical; a poetic figure would be
September 3 at 2:19pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, it is true.
September 3 at 2:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A poem is a poetic figure.
September 3 at 2:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 3 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ?
September 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I prefer Laphroige quarter cask to Lagevilin 16 year.
September 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am not trying to make poetry into a different form of math. I am just trying to see how they are similar, or where they intersect in terms of matter and form.
September 3 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yep, there was a time when I could afford to compare.
September 3 at 2:20pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward has the Holy Ghost changed your heart yet
September 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, but Scotus has been hardening that hart.
September 3 at 2:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ardbeg uigeadail
September 3 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and it also helps to be John Nieto's friend as he has been trying every kind of scotch from every distillery in Scotland. Someone's got to do it.
September 3 at 2:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^divine.
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict After all, Scott - Euclid alone has looked on beauty bare.
September 3 at 2:22pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia we tried that the year after graduation. I had a 18 month hangover
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, I don't think I want to know what hardening a hart means...it sounds cruel at best....
September 3 at 2:22pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Including scotch made after the blend that Shackleton personally crafted for his expedition.
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edna alone has looked on Euclid bare
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Maybe it has to do with tanning?
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A poetic figure is analgogous to a mathematical. Some poems are poetic figures in their entirety, an entire metaphor, is all I meant.
September 3 at 2:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley I used to have perfect spelling. Then I went to graduate school.
September 3 at 2:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia too many analytic philosophers
September 3 at 2:23pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Catholic schools, as a rule, are overrun by continental philosophers.
September 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante anal-ytic
September 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Greek and German destroyed my spelling.
September 3 at 2:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think he said anal^
September 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman hee hee.
September 3 at 2:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am sorry. I taught high school for four years.
September 3 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante unlike many senior girls, I've actually read Freud
September 3 at 2:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Ralph McInerny makes a joke in his autobiography that Catholic philosophers decided to move from the Thomist ghetto to the phenomenologist ghetto.
September 3 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and thus grasp the origins of analytic "phil"
September 3 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Although, he puts it more wittily than I do.
September 3 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Math is for people who do have not enough faith; poetry is for those who have too much.
September 3 at 2:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^?
September 3 at 2:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Poetry, btw, as an art is obviously superior to mathematics, as it encompasses a greater universality.
September 3 at 2:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Math is for people who love beauty.
September 3 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Scott is actually right about the modern academy at least
September 3 at 2:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Poetry is for people who love to talk about beauty.
September 3 at 2:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley And philosophy is for those whose faith is just right.
September 3 at 2:26pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Think of Dawkins on the one hand, and Derrida on the other, and you will see the truth of what Scott said
September 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Poets seek to explain nature in supernatural terms.
September 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Poets are those who are able to give beauty its life's breath so that it may enter into the hearts of men.
September 3 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Philosophers realize that one ought to use the correct level of discourse.
September 3 at 2:27pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Mathematicians seek to explain God with equations.
September 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Only poor poets would explain nature in supernatural terms.
September 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Rather, a poet ought to explain the supernatural through natural terms ,beautifully.
September 3 at 2:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or equations
September 3 at 2:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think if a poet could explain Creation has God sees it, he would be very rich.
September 3 at 2:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I apologize for the dogmatic character of my poetic-self.
September 3 at 2:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not see anything natural about a metaphor. Metaphor turns nature on its head.
September 3 at 2:29pm · Like
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Joel HF "Think of Dawkins on the one hand, and Derrida on the other, and you will see the truth of what Scott said"-JA Escalante Neither of those guys is a mathematician or a poet--at least, that isn't what they are known for.
September 3 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No, Daniel, I think you are on to it; if metaphor is natural.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz: Math is a science. Poetry is a hunch.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley "His colleague Alfréd Rényi said, "a mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems",[14] and Erdős drank copious quantities. (This quotation is often attributed incorrectly to Erdős,[15] but Erdős himself ascribed it to Rényi.[16]) After 1971 he also took amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking the drug for a month.[17] Erdős won the bet, but complained that during his abstinence, mathematics had been set back by a month: "Before, when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a blank piece of paper." After he won the bet, he promptly resumed his amphetamine use."
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Poincare is a mathematician.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sounds poetical to me.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Joel HF But this is a stupid argument.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Metaphors are beautiful, in their imitation of the divine.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "He had his own idiosyncratic vocabulary: Although an agnostic atheist,[18][19] he spoke of "The Book", a visualization of a book in which God had written down the best and most elegant proofs for mathematical theorems.[20] Lecturing in 1985 he said, "You don't have to believe in God, but you should believe in The Book." He himself doubted the existence of God, whom he called the "Supreme Fascist" (SF).[21][22] He accused SF of hiding his socks and Hungarian passports, and of keeping the most elegant mathematical proofs to himself. When he saw a particularly beautiful mathematical proof he would exclaim, "This one's from The Book!". This later inspired a book entitled Proofs from THE BOOK."
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That's it, I think.
September 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia do you have an equation that proves that Joel? or is it just a hunch
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But slightly crazy
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman poetry is "infima doctrina" but it is still doctrina.
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If poetry is a hunch, then the poet is very bold when guessing that Beatrice is a rose.
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Only a fool ignores the poets.
September 3 at 2:35pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley "Infima doctrina" < math
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Only the poets ignore a fool.
September 3 at 2:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or perhaps you meant "foal"?
September 3 at 2:32pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante 13,000 ahead ,mates- heave ho
September 3 at 2:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley and then 13,692
September 3 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that expression "infima doctrina" makes me want to punch people
September 3 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg The poet finds the wisdom in the fool; and the folly in the wise man.
September 3 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg infima doctrina = a short cut to metaphysics
September 3 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF, yes mathematics is a science, but is all of what we call mathematical a science? I threw in "as art" both as a weasel phrase to avoid objection, and because it seems to me math can also be treated as an art.
September 3 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante poetry is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the ore-vein of the concept; math yields little
September 3 at 2:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "God may not play dice with the universe, but something strange is going on with the prime numbers."
September 3 at 2:34pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley "Television is something the Russians invented to destroy American education."
September 3 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle...
September 3 at 2:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Quotations/Erdos.html
September 3 at 2:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."
September 3 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Everything that is, has beauty. But some things are more beautiful than others.
September 3 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And people who have done Euclid should know how beautiful a nice proof is.
September 3 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF JA Escalante "poetry is more closely allied to the phantasm which is the ore-vein of the concept; math yields little" Really?
September 3 at 2:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, I know beauty, and Euclid is beautiful.
September 3 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And there was that one time I saw a whole proof in Apollonius in the diagram at a single glance.
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Joel HF Behold!
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel: really.
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Joshua Kenz Euclid, beautiful? I thought him rather homely....now Apollonius was a real catch....
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Daniel Lendman Edward: angelic.
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Edward Langley And then Pascal's projective geometry . . . man that's fine.
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John Haggard 12,500 comments? We might get the longest thread record yet!
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Daniel Lendman Euclid is beautiful, but is certainly not the Beatrice that is Apollonius.
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Joel HF Edward Langley ala Bhaskara's famous proof of the Pythagorean theorem.
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Haggard, the thread would have to grow almost 50 times it current size to do that....we shall see!
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Adrw Lng "The sea never changes and its works, for all the talk of men, are wrapped in mystery."
--from "Typhoon" by Joseph Conrad
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Scott Weinberg Aye, but the Math does not convey the beauty. It conveys something else; the beauty just comes along with it, like a woman riding a horse.
September 3 at 2:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Um, wrong
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Scott Weinberg No, the math conveys something that must be true. Not something that must be beautiful.
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Edward Langley Have you ever really done math?
September 3 at 2:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes. Have you ever really done poetry?
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Edward Langley It's the proof itself that's beuatiful.
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Edward Langley Yeah, ask Catherine Ryland
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Joshua Kenz I have done meth, does that count?
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Joshua Kenz Just kidding, that was real bad
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Adrw Lng Joshua is the danger
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Scott Weinberg The proof is true, not beautiful. Math helps us see that we know it as true.
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Edward Langley Look who's splitting the transcendentals now.
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Samantha Cohoe What is this "infima doctrina" stuff?
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Scott Weinberg Geometry may have some beauty in it -- some beauty and truth -- but not math.
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Edward Langley You're going all Scotus on us now.
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Scott Weinberg The little way to metaphysics.
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Edward Langley Samantha, I think it's from St. Thomas. But I think the intention concerns its logical structure, not its utility.
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Scott Weinberg The content of math is literal. The content of poetry is imaginary. The content of rhetoric is contingent. The form of all three is the same.
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Scott Weinberg Their form being the same, they can all lead to beauty, truth and goodness in unity.
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Joel HF Math is the propaedeutic to philosophy. It is also the science best proportioned to our intellects. But poetry is great as well, though I don't understand claims that poeticals are "the richest beings of reason."
September 3 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg But you see math as beautiful, Ed, because you are beautiful inside, not because of the math.
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Edward Langley So, Scott, you're now saying that poetry isn't beautiful but leads to beauty too?
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Scott Weinberg "propaedeutic"... please watch your language.
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Joel HF Poetry may be the highest art, and thus be greater than Math insofar as Math is certainly not the highest science.
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Scott Weinberg Ed, what do you say I was saying before?
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Samantha Cohoe Incommensurables, guys.
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Edward Langley "Aye, but the Math does not convey the beauty. It conveys something else; the beauty just comes along with it, like a woman riding a horse."
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Joel HF But the praise of poetry at the expense of math is usually a compensation technique.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante tell it to Vico, you Cartesian
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, I think you are right. About 10,000 posts ago I post a division of "Logica", among discursive reason I divided it into three, that producing conclusions necessary, that producing probable conclusions and that producing error
The 2nd is divided into three...that producing opinion, that producing suspicion and the producing estimation, and that last was ascribed to the Poetics, as it inclines us to one side ofa contradiction through the appeal of beauty. It is the weakest, in that the Topics produces opinions, i.e. the mind is totally declined to one side, and the Rhetoric suspicion, the mind is partially declined, but the Poetics only produces, for lack of a better word, an attraction to one side.
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I think human imagination (properly informed) can be said to be beautiful, just as the human will (properly informed) can said to be good; just as the human intellect (properly informed) can be said to be true.
Math conveys the true; rhetoric the good; poetry the beautiful.
Poetry is a tool. The poet informs the form of his art with beauty. The poet is both informed by formal unity in the world, and informs the world with beauty in his poetical observation of the world and things in it. He then informs the poem with this form. In one sense, the poem possess beauty. But it is a beauty to transmit and inform the reader. It is a short cut to metaphysical beauty; in a similar way, a math equation can be the briefest possible description of a geometrical universal.
But what do I know? I am really a fool at times, and never wise.
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Samantha Cohoe What's happening here? Josh, are you saying poetry is a kind of discursive reasoning?
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--w/r/t your "weasel distinction," I think that's it is probably right to say that Poetry is much higher considered as an art, and mathematics can also be considered an art as well (e.g. algorithms, engineering, etc.).
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Joshua Kenz One may argue that its utility is the greatest though, in that it appeals to the greatest number of men
Poetry in general seems to have sprung from two causes, each of them lying deep in our nature. First, the instinct of imitation is implanted in man from childhood, one difference between him and other animals being that he is the most imitative of living creatures, and through imitation learns his earliest lessons; and no less universal is the pleasure felt in things imitated. We have evidence of this in the facts of experience. Objects which in themselves we view with pain, we delight to contemplate when reproduced with minute fidelity: such as the forms of the most ignoble animals and of dead bodies. The cause of this again is, that to learn gives the liveliest pleasure, not only to philosophers but to men in general; whose capacity, however, of learning is more limited. (1448b1)
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Joel HF Josh is quoting Aquinas in saying so, in one of his proemiums to logic.
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Joshua Kenz Yes Mrs. Cohoe. Not syllogistic, but it does lead the mind to new places, no?
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Scott Weinberg Pelican of mercy, Jesus, Lord and God,
Cleanse me, wretched sinner, in Thy Precious Blood:
Blood where one drop for human-kind outpoured
Might from all transgression have the world restored.
September 3 at 3:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It is not the point of poetry to produce conclusions.
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Scott Weinberg Not conclusions of truth, but conclusions of beauty.
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Edward Langley I think the claim is that poetry has a certain relation to logic insofar as it can often lead people to a conclusion through its proper method. But this isn't to say that it's properly a part of logic.
September 3 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF See STA commentary on the Posterior Analytics: http://dhspriory.org/thomas/PostAnalytica.htm#02
FOREWORD OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS - Thomas Aquinas: Posteriora Analytica: English
αἵ τε γὰρ μαθηματικαὶ τῶν ἐπιστημῶν διὰ τούτου τοῦ τρόπου παραγίνονται καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἑκάστη τεχνῶν.
DHSPRIORY.ORG
September 3 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is poetry a counterpart of logic, like rhetoric is a counterpart of dialectic?
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Joshua Kenz Sure it is, not again in the manner of a syllogism, but through and in beauty, yes. Beauty, after all, appeals to the mind in a way the good appeals to the will, it attracts it. Beauty has that ratio of truth blended with the ratio of good.
Or are we not supposed to contemplate anything in beauty?
September 3 at 3:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Thanks Joel HF-
At times, however, belief or opinion is not altogether achieved, but suspicion is, because reason does not lean to one side of a contradiction unreservedly, although it is inclined more to one side than to the other. To this the Rhetoric is devoted. At other times a mere fancy inclines one to one side of a contradiction because of some representation, much as a man turns in disgust from certain food if it is described to him in terms of something disgusting. And to this is ordained the Poetics. For the poet’s task is to lead us to something virtuous by some excellent description. And all these pertain to the philosophy of the reason, for it belongs to reason to pass from one thing to another. (from Joel's link)
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Scott Weinberg Is the conclusion of the poetic method that it informs the soul somehow, in a related by different way than logic?
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Samantha Cohoe Seems pretty reductive to equate contemplating beauty with producing conclusions.
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Joel HF I wonder if also it is because poetry can be used to move the mind to a certain conclusion--though that may not be the only (or even the primary) thing poetry does. Beauty is worthwhile for its own sake, after all, and not merely as a sort of 2nd rate rhetoric and 3rd rate syllogism.
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not saying it can't aid in producing conclusions. As long as we're not judging poetry relative to other disciplines based on its ability to convince the mind of something, then I'm good.
September 3 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, what Joel said.
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Joshua Kenz Maybe I am using conclusion more broadly here...I am not thinking of it as the end of a syllogism, but as that to which the mind is led....in a certain sense does not all art attempt to lead the mind in some sense?
September 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think the burden of proof is on anyone who claims that math isn't beautiful.
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, beauty may refer to the clearest sort of "seeing" of what truly is, when mind and heart are ordered rightly in relation to being via this beholding.
September 3 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sure, but not for the purpose of producing conclusions. At least, not necessarily, and I think, not usually.
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Michael Beitia and the only reason you snobs pick Apollonius over Euclid is because we have only the basics of Euclid.
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Matthew J. Peterson Brian Dragoo has a thesis for what ails yah arguing that math is beautiful.
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Edward Langley Joel, I think that's why poetry (and for a similar reason, rhetoric) is not properly part of logic.
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Michael Beitia Anyone ever heard of an "elegant" proof. No no no no no we only talk about the brute force of the proof bludgeoning us with logic
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Edward Langley On a related note, I think a lot of the funky mysticism about beauty happens because people lose sight of the first sense of beauty: namely, a certain consonance between something seen or heard and the sense power that produces pleasure.
Sure, that isn't the most noble sense of the term, but the characteristics of that sensible account govern the use of the term.
September 3 at 3:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia take a simple construction, like Euclid II. 11. In order to cut the line in the golden ratio, he first constructs it on the side. Elegant, and makes the beautiful spiral root, in the construction. (and it rears its ugly [I mean beautiful by ugly] head again in inscribing the pentagon)
September 3 at 3:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley St. Thomas's "What, when seen, pleases".
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Edward Langley From it, in particular, we learn that something is beautiful when it is well proportioned to our powers: both absolutely and taking into account our particular circumstances.
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Daniel P. O'Connell Newton's proofs in Book III of the Principia?
September 3 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia a simple drawing of Utah is the basis of the golden ratio, the pentagon, and finally the most complex of the platonic solids. Where again is the lack of beauty in understanding?
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Edward Langley In the former sense, there is an objective order between beautiful things (which Mozart happens to be at the top of); in the latter, it's more true to say that "beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder"
September 3 at 3:19pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Mozart. Pish-posh.
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Michael Beitia ^he's no Schoenberg^
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Edward Langley You have denied a #tacdogma: this incurs a _latae sententiae_ excommunication.
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Daniel P. O'Connell lol
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Michael Beitia Mozart is only beautiful because of #mathgnosis
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Edward Langley Quoth Mrs. Gustin.
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Scott Weinberg I thought Euclid's proof on the equilateral tringle led to beauty and truth. The perfectness of the form of the triangle is beautiful. Maybe you cannot say this, but maybe you can. I do not know. Maybe the form is not beautiful. Just true.
September 3 at 3:21pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah, but Mrs. Gustin thought Beethoven was the best!
September 3 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (please help! Does anyone know what a semiduplex rite is ecclesiastically?)
September 3 at 3:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really? Not Bach?
September 3 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Nerdiest "please help" request ever!
September 3 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Etymology, nature and synonyms. The word semi-double (semi-duplex) is derived from the Latin; and some writers hold that the word indicates feasts which are of lower rank and solemnity than double feasts. Others hold that it means simply, feasts holding a place between double feasts and simple feasts. Most writers on liturgy hold that on some days a double office—one of the feast and one of the feria—was held, and that in order to shorten this double recitation there was said a composite office, partly of the saint's office and partly of the feria; and they say that from this practice arose the term semi-double, or half-double.
Synonyms for the term "semi-duplex," are "non-duplex," "office of nine lessons."
1. The antiphons are not doubled in a semi-double office.
2. The Sundays of the year, excepting Easter Sunday, Low Sunday, Pentecost and Trinity, are said according to the semi-double rite. In the new Breviaries the Psalms for Matins are only nine in number, instead of the eighteen of the older book.
3. The versicles, antiphons, responses, preces and suffrages of saints, which are recited in semi-double offices, are given below under their own titles.
September 3 at 3:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Bach is the only serious contender for the title.
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Edward Langley But I think he's overly cerebral.
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Catherine Ryland Thank you!
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Edward Langley Quoted from here: http://www.sanctamissa.org/.../divine-office-quigley-09.html
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Edward Langley I don't know the authority of the source, but it seems to be a relatively straight-forward kinda question.
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Samantha Cohoe Too much #mathgnosis?
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Joel HF Yes, b/c Bach lacked (or didn't make much use of) the Sonata form, whereas it reached its peak w/ Beethoven, and the Sonata form gave the greatest unity and largest scope to a composition (or so saith my memory of Mrs. Gustin).
September 3 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That sounds sort of familiar
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Edward Langley Beethoven is overly emotional.
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Edward Langley Mozart is the golden mean.
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Edward Langley #truth
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Joel HF I also suspect she rather liked the masculinity of Beethoven as compared to Mozart. But that's my private view.
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Michael Beitia Bach is too mathy
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Samantha Cohoe What's so great about Sonatas? I think she was prejudiced against church music.
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Edward Langley Sonata is actually a church form.
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Edward Langley (the way a classical minuet was a dance form)
September 3 at 3:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really? what part of the liturgy?
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Joel HF Edward Langley sed contra, the mean is Nigel Tufnel.
September 3 at 3:26pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And I quote: "You know, just simple lines intertwining, you know, very much like — I'm really influenced by Mozart and Bach, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Mach piece, really."
September 3 at 3:27pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell See, this is the problem with music criticism (or criticism of the arts in general) at TAC. One is not trained in it (a training which demands many years of service in the temple of beauty), so one just falls back on one's own likes and dislikes, and if one is a tutor (or if there is a group of tutors who have the same tastes), this gets elevated into dogma, but it's not dogma at all. I think Richard Delahide Ferrier will back me up here.
September 3 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm not exactly sure.
But I had a violin teacher point out to me that the difference between a "partita" and a "sonata" (particularly referring to Bach's partitas and sonatas for unaccompanied violin) was that the former was stylized dance music while the latter was stylized church music.
September 3 at 3:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Was Joshua above suggesting that poetry is that art by which women can be brought to a different conclusion? Or did i miss something?
September 3 at 3:28pm · Like
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Joel HF Per wiki there were 2 forms of sonata originally
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Samantha Cohoe haha, I was just wiki-ing
September 3 at 3:29pm · Like
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Joel HF "In the works of Arcangelo Corelli and his contemporaries, two broad classes of sonata were established, and were first described by Sébastien de Brossard in his Dictionaire de musique (third edition, Amsterdam, ca. 1710): the sonata da chiesa (that is, suitable for use in church), which was the type "rightly known as Sonatas", and the sonata da camera (proper for use at court), which consists of a prelude followed by a succession of dances, all in the same key. "
September 3 at 3:30pm · Like
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Joel HF And the Church Sonata gives rise to the modern Sonata form.
September 3 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, I don't recall why Gustin thought the Sonata form was the so great. She probably had reasons, though, and it sounds like something that would be a truism at TAC.
September 3 at 3:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman do you recall Gustin's arguments for why Sonatas are so great?
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Samantha Cohoe Hey John-- if you really want to start something you should defend that claim you made about Austen and feminism. I no longer respond to anything less than dragon level trolling.
September 3 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel O'Connell, some of us have been (almost exclusively) listening classical music since before we were born.
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Daniel P. O'Connell I am one of those people, Edward. Well, at least since I was 5. Anyway, the rule should be: No criticism until you've read Goethe's Conversations, Kant's 3rd critique, and at least 200 pages of Ruskin.
To be serious for a moment, though: perhaps some develop more slowly than others. For myself, I had certain definite tastes by the time I was 18, but I feel I couldn't really begin to engage in criticism (of music, or painting, or poetry) until I was about 35 or so. But perhaps I was being scrupulous.
September 3 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Criticism is like Hume's maxims: one can know the maxims as a very young person, but it takes decades until one has learned how to apply them.
September 3 at 3:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley That may be right, for some sense of criticism, but the vice of music criticism is overemphasizing technique.
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Gustin also once hummed Metallica's Enter Sandman.... I think I find the favoring Beethoven over Mozart more surprising though
September 3 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Pretty sure TNET broke facebook there for a few minutes
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John Boyer You had same problem?
September 3 at 4:00pm · Like
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John Boyer Here's a poem:
A cat
S. A. T.
Inanimate
Stock
C
R
A
S
H
The cat cares not.
He has his money
In silver and gold.
September 3 at 4:01pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe yep. too much #gnosis.
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Joshua Kenz Everyone did...there is a site that tests "is it down for me or everyone" it said FB was down for everyone
September 3 at 4:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Probably the revelation that Gustin hummed Metallica....small rip in the space time fabric there
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Samantha Cohoe ^another good theory
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John Boyer I remember Bailey Fator singing Weezer for her.
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Scott Weinberg I can contemplate beauty without poetry. But I can do neither without imagination.
September 3 at 4:03pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yeah...we were sitting with her and the claim was made that a sign of the depravity of such music was that it was not memorable....so we got Louis Bolin, who had been tortured with Metallica by James Layne to regurgitate it, and Gustin repeated it back just fine.
September 3 at 4:04pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz That was a twofer really
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Scott Weinberg Saying "A Cat S.A.T...." is a poem, is like saying 1+3+7=25-6...[24] is a mathematical equation.
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John Boyer James Layne waterboarded Bolin with music? HA!
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Joshua Kenz IIRC Louis had said something derogatory about rock music, and his example was the Beatles...and we told him that wasn't real rock music, so James had a CD of Metallica and we played it in my room...Louis did not look all that pleased.
We subjected him to it again during the summer. He had his own room, next to ours, and was playing some track over and over...I think it was Schubert, don't remember. I wanted to go to bed and I knocked on his door asking him to zip it. He refused. I had 4 speakers and a subwolfer and James had the Metallica. We checked with our neighbors to see if they were fine with a music war....Louis came over saying he didn't mind, but maybe the others would be upset, and I could say, no, they are cool with it...I cam over a little later and he had moved to the other side of his room with his little laptop speakers put close to his ears...walls vibrating from the Metallica.....that was glorious.
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Scott Weinberg Poor mathematicians butcher poetry, and faith. The really excellent ones treasure it.
September 3 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Black Sabbath > Metallica. Discuss.
September 3 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Nick Ruedig What is there TO discuss once you've heard War Pigs, Iron man, Black Sabbath, etc?
September 3 at 4:34pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Metallica sucks. I do like having "speak like James Hetfield Day-ah at work"
September 3 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, it had something to do with overtones.
September 3 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And some prog rock bands, like YES, should be fined for outrageous lyrics, such as: "Hot color, melting the anger to stone."
September 3 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Mozart is, by far, the best. But it is certainly okay to listen to others.
September 3 at 4:50pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^^!!!!!!
September 3 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^I take it you agree.
September 3 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell See, this is what I'd like to get away from. "X is the best."
September 3 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mozart was a mason, therefore defective. He also had a very dirty mind....very dirty
Palestrina is the best, thank you.
September 3 at 5:00pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz /trolling
September 3 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell @Daniel: How can you even say that? One can say that, at a given time in European history, in Western music, Mozart was the most accomplished composer. But imagine trying to compare him to Leonin and Perotin, Wm. Byrd, Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Berg and Aaron Copeland. The sentence does not signify. Or it is twaddle.
September 3 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Say instead: "Mozart is my favorite composer."
September 3 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, Molly Gustin gave me some good tools for objectively evaluating music. That being the case, I admit that there is a range of composers that one might consider "the best."
However, I find that the more people listen, the more they will come to agree with me... it is inevitable.
September 3 at 5:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Here's a good dialectical argument for why those tools are not objective: look at Greek music at the time of Plato ... Molly's tools would not even know where to begin! The mode of classical western music is not even a mode Plato would admit (IIRC)!
September 3 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Lendman, having listened to the entirety of Mozart's works, maybe I have to agree. Especially k.231. (or k382c in the revised numbering). Though k382d (in old nubering k.233) may be superior
That latter is titled, "Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber"
Yeah, Mozart definitely the best at reaching such lofty heights....
In all seriousness, he is a bit overrated.
September 3 at 5:09pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Bach > Mozart
September 3 at 5:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^false.
September 3 at 5:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Try forming sentences more like these (this is truly my opinion now: I believe it): "Die Zauberflöte is the opera that I love best. I can't imagine a better opera." "La traviata is a close second, in my book, followed by Les contes d'Hoffmann."
September 3 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will try.
September 3 at 5:11pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Le Nozze di Figaro is clearly the greatest opera ever written.
September 3 at 5:12pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Although I understand why someone might thing Don Giovanni is.
September 3 at 5:12pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman How'd I do?
September 3 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Now me: Within Mozart's operas, Die Zauberflöte is clearly the greatest of his operas, a comedy, just as Twelfth Night is Shakespeare's best play.
September 3 at 5:13pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram It's okay Dan. I am with you. But then again, I am also partial to Bowie.
September 3 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Hmm... Clearly my argument was not convincing enough.
September 3 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, don't be a puritan. A little ass licking on occasion is funny.
September 3 at 5:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Overrated, my ass.
September 3 at 5:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman <ptui>
September 3 at 5:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Can anyone today talk to about poetry and music, who has the same kind of artistic force as Mozart or Beethoven; no, I think culturally the whole thing has fallen apart and needs to be rebuilt and cannot be grafted onto a contemporary form. By rare chance I once asked Gunter Grass, Joseph Brodsky and Seamus Heaney about poetry, and they all sounded vague and confused. Brodsky described his own as soupy, though argued the publishing industry is supply-driven. Grass was clearly a believer, but his books are incredibly profane. On the other hand, if you view old tapes of Tolkien or Chesterton, they are the opposite. They are diffinitive. If you look at heavy metal bands, or contemporary pop, you see depravity and sometimes the diabolical. If there is a poet or musician today of the same cloth as Mozart or Beethoven, or Pope, or Virgil, or Jane Austen. I think they would be very hidden. They would not be riding the wave in Hollywood.
September 3 at 5:23pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have the complete works of both Mozart and Bach...Bach is superior. Operas are another matter, which Bach is not compared in. Mozart has the greater number of Operas in the top ten, but Carmen is better than all of his.
September 3 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, I am not sure what to say....I didn't know you went for that sort of thing....do you also like Joyce?
September 3 at 5:21pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict ^I totally see everything you did there, Kenz. Brilliant.
September 3 at 5:24pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I disagree that there isn't the talent now that existed in Mozart's day. There are many brilliant modern musicians, to judge them by the same standard is like judging a Mozart piano sonata to a Chopin one. They aren't the same kind of music
September 3 at 5:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I like Joyce.
September 3 at 5:32pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I also like sandwiches. Can I get an amen for sandwiches?
September 3 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia depends on whether it is made from perfectly normal beasts
September 3 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Saying there are Mozart's or Chopin's today is artistic relativism. Why can no one recognize today's Chopin or Tolstoy or even Jane Austin or even Flannery O-Connor? Modernism has laid waste to it all.
September 3 at 5:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "modernism laid waste to it all" sounds like a cop-out.
September 3 at 5:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IMHO
September 3 at 5:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It also sounds bitter and pained.
September 3 at 5:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But it has laid waste to it all. This is what The Wasteland was about. Eliot, that seer, saw it coming.
September 3 at 5:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg For the same reasons, TAC cannot restore modern academia.
September 3 at 5:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It can only start something anew.
September 3 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia restore is a stupid word. onward and upward
September 3 at 5:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Greatest ballet: Giselle?
September 3 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia greatest ballet: West Side Story
September 3 at 5:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg onward and upward yes, but we cannot bring life back to the wasteland, we must move onward and upward elsewhere.
September 3 at 5:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Is that a ballet? I thought it was a musical
September 3 at 5:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Same thing
September 3 at 5:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg greatest sitcom: Happy Days
September 3 at 5:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, are you suggesting we go where no man has gone before?
September 3 at 5:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, to the future.
September 3 at 5:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Name a better use for the diminished fifth, Joshua?
September 3 at 5:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Oh, I thought space Scott
September 3 at 5:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg live long and prosper where you are planted
September 3 at 5:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I thought we were going upward?
September 3 at 5:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg prosperity is phototropic
September 3 at 5:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, no it is not. There may be some jazz-dance in it, but it is closer to a ballet-opera, but even then no. No, ballet is a distinct form. Musicals are something else.
September 3 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Musicals are dross
September 3 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia But is there a better use for the diminished fifth
September 3 at 5:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Sounds like Adrw hasn't seen enough of them
September 3 at 5:46pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Thanks but no thanks. Married to a theater major who thinks the same. Opera all the way
September 3 at 5:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia (TAC pronounced "tack")
when you're a TAC you're a TAC all the way
from your first euclid prop to your last dying day......
September 3 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Beitia, Dante Sonata by Liszt
September 3 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz ^wrt the diminished fifth
September 3 at 5:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (I troll.... I hate musicals)
September 3 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz My Fair Lady- best 20th century pop musical film?
September 3 at 5:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia never seen it
September 3 at 5:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Your loss!
September 3 at 5:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Musicals are opera meets vaudeville.
September 3 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg
My Fair Lady "Why Can't the English Learn to Speak"
First meet between Higgins and Doolittle, with English subs
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I can't believe I just wasted 6 minutes of my life.....
September 3 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Wasted?
It gets better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbdVvIbB1KU
Just You Wait - Audrey Hepburn 's own voice - My Fair Lady
Audrey sang most of this song herself in the released...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 6:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I cant believe MB just said he cant believe he wasted six minutes of his life, on TNET!
September 3 at 6:08pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe GAH I CAN'T LIGHT MY STUPID GRILL
September 3 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe great now I have to put my stupid pork skewers in the stupid oven
September 3 at 6:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^but can you make a sandwich out of them?^
September 3 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe TNET is my newfeed now, btw. That is why y'all get this status update.
September 3 at 6:14pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia ooof. psychopathic hallucinating cockney girl with the world's most annoying accent. I think I'll pass, Joshua
September 3 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia p.s. you owe me 10 minutes of my life back
September 3 at 6:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I owe you nothing! I merely filled a gap in your cultural knowlege
September 3 at 6:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Cultural!? Hah.
September 3 at 6:47pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer This comment is brief.
September 3 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Now I'm listening to Schoenberg to wash the cockney out of my ears
September 3 at 6:49pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Schoenberg!!!! It made my physically ill when I first heard him
September 3 at 6:55pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia It does the trick for washing cockney out of the ears....
September 3 at 6:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-pVz2LTakM
Schoenberg: Verklärte Nacht, Op.4 - Boulez.
Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951): Verklärte Nacht (Transfigured Night / La Nuit transfigurée), Op.4 (1899)...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 6:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and *you're* to blame!
September 3 at 6:56pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I love how proponents of Bach > Mozart don't even feel the need to put forth an argument . As if the opus speaks for itself.
September 3 at 6:56pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Awright geeezzaa! Whatever yew say. Sorted mate.
September 3 at 6:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Bach is too mathy. Plus if Douglas Hofstadter thought he was the best..... well, that's not a ringing endorsement
September 3 at 6:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lang, it does speak for itself!
September 3 at 6:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you and Hofstadter
September 3 at 6:58pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Beitia, Lor' luv a duck! unlike yew I do not 'ave da compulsion ter play videos an' I can stop 'em when I dislike 'em. Know what I mean?
September 3 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia where's the WTF button
September 3 at 6:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrjmeGKoR1E
Napoleon Dynamite - I don't understand a word you just said
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 7:00pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Bach is too mathy, whatever, Behtea.
September 3 at 7:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Fugue is too mathy
September 3 at 7:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joshua, I have poor impulse control
September 3 at 7:01pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I thought you were all about the #mathgnosis
September 3 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia shh, you'll give it away..... (my exoteric doctrine is that Mozart is superior)
September 3 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I prefer this for purging
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne2LzSG8bic
Pelot d'Hennebont, Tri Yann
Musique traditionnelle bretonne Ma chère maman je vous écris Que nous sommes entrés dans Paris Que je...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia why not *clicks link*
September 3 at 7:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia weird...it's like a strange French accented speaker over Gaelic music....
September 3 at 7:06pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is Celtic music....Bretaigne.
September 3 at 7:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I know that, I can read. But most of my Celtic music experience is The Pogues.
My daughter is at Irish dance class right now (so is my wife, which is why I'm killing so much time on TNET)
September 3 at 7:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So sometimes I'm forced to listen to the reel ad nauseum so she can practice.... ugh
September 3 at 7:09pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia But the French sounds way off
September 3 at 7:10pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Best modern musician: icejjfish
http://youtu.be/iq_d8VSM0nw
IceJJFish - On The Floor (Official Music Video)
BUY NEW ICEJJFISH SHIRT!! AVAILABLE NOW https://...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 7:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia holy crap
September 3 at 7:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Have I mentioned that St. Patrick is one of my favorite English saints?
September 3 at 7:21pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia hahahaha I tell that to my inlaws every year (though I leave the possibility open that he could be Roman)
September 3 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I expected no less from you, Adrw Lng
September 3 at 7:32pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Did somebody say something intelligent about Virgil, about 400 comments ago?
September 3 at 7:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If not, then how bout a Norwegian joke. So, Lena says to Lars c'mon it's our anniversary I want you to take me somewhere expensive so Lars says to Lena hop in I'm taking you to the gas station.
September 3 at 7:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg get it? rising fuel prices?
September 3 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugWGhItaQA
West Side Story - Cool (1961) HD
RIFF Boy, boy, crazy boy, Get cool, boy! Got a rocket in your pocket, Keep coolly cool, boy! Don't get hot, 'Cause...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 8:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This is my Bonnie's dance troupe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEtlBxLrMOo
Kristopher Estes-Brown Choreography Project Premiere '11
Kristopher Estes-Brown's Choreography Video from...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 8:07pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg petrol?
September 3 at 8:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Best musical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU
So Long Farewell
"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 8:17pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am off to work...when I get back in 16 hours I expect 15,000 posts
September 3 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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Emily Norppa My vote for favorite musical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw
Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles )
Tradition
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Pink Floyd's the Wall?
September 3 at 8:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Worst musical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU
So Long Farewell
"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC
YOUTUBE.COM
September 3 at 9:19pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia ^NOOOOOOOO^
September 3 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the sound of music was my personal hell in middle school when we had to watch it...
September 3 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I actually met one of the von Trapp children at a mall in smalltown ID as a kid. Bizarre where continual fame takes a person
September 3 at 9:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I have been peaceful for so long, but now I rise in defense of the Von Trapp family singers!
September 3 at 10:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Von Crap....
September 3 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Mathematical truths are good, true and beautiful because they are of an order of being created by God, and a high one at that, so their beauty is higher than the material world; but even as St. Augustine says, "you were within me, and I outside, and I sought you outside and in my ugliness fell upon those lovely things that you have made." So the only thing beautiful in man is the indwelling of the Logos, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and that enables us to be informed by the beauty around us in the material world, their forms, and immaterial forms.
September 3 at 10:14pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I suppose it depends on what you mean by "beautiful"
September 3 at 10:15pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I just cracked code. Thank you.
gratitude + (von trapp) x (-von trapp)
September 3 at 10:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Logos is a person. Indwelling of Logos enables us to apprehend beauty, truth and goodness in external signs and formula that are apprehended by entire person, entire soul. Person to person. Requires more than math. Requires math, poetry and persuasion. Total soul: intellect, imagination and will. Total person.
September 3 at 10:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Legos are not a person, Scott
September 3 at 10:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Goodnight TNET. I fear your glory days may be over. May the morning prove me wrong.
September 3 at 10:56pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Math alone is not beautiful to all men. To some men, math makes other things ugly. Descartes.
September 3 at 11:08pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg TAC too mathy to resemble medieval liberal arts. TAC too mathy make other things only true, but not good and beautiful. The only-true, without good and beauty, can be ugly and bad.
Goodnight ladies, ladies goodnight.
September 3 at 11:08pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Advertising TNET's semi-official forum: http://socraticum.com
Socraticum.com
SOCRATICUM.COM
September 3 at 11:22pm · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley It's easy to sign up: hit "Sign Up" then hit "login with Facebook/Google".
September 3 at 11:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A curious interview with Peregrine on why God put animals in the Bible.
http://www.fiatministrynetwork.tv/.../episode-39.../
Episode 39 with Jonathan Scott
Please join us every Sunday night at www.fiatministrynetwork.tvat 9pm EST LIVE. Joe will talk...
FIATMINISTRYNETWORK.TV
September 3 at 11:30pm · Like
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Adrw Lng So Boyer have you spent any time with the essay Modern Moral Philosophy?
September 3 at 11:31pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Edward, TNET will wreak its own vengeance upon you if you try to abscond with its devotees.
September 3 at 11:32pm · Like
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John Boyer I have not.
September 3 at 11:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley This isn't an attempt to divert people from TNET, but to create a lasting fan club in order to discuss topics in greater depth.
September 3 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Good idea.
September 3 at 11:34pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland TNET is watching you.
September 3 at 11:35pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng John , when TNET talks about bringing good philosophy to the wider community, this is the best effort I've seen in Ethics in the last 100 years
September 3 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Lol. I'll have to check out the Anscombe article.
September 3 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng What do you think some of Geach's best contributions to philosophy?
September 3 at 11:39pm · Like
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John Boyer One would be the refutation of Ascriptivism and his reconciling of esse with fregeian logic.
September 3 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I also quite like his work on divine attributes. The best contribution is setting stage for analytic Thomism
September 3 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Also his work on mctaggart.
September 3 at 11:41pm · Like
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Rebekah Shapiro I haven't been following, but I was reflecting this weekend that the impulse to rely heavily on more recent works from the Magisterium, instead of the Scriptures and tomes of the Doctors, is akin to confessionalism, and to a confessionalist impulse seen among former Confessionalist converts to catholic Christianity. Alexander Gorelik
September 3 at 11:46pm · Like
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Adrw Lng John so you're in favor of analytic Thomism?
September 3 at 11:48pm · Like
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John Boyer I am in the main. Oderberg, Feser, especially.
September 3 at 11:49pm · Like
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John Boyer The flaws mostly come one certain points (eg Davies trying to make Aquinas into frege on esse
September 3 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Does Feser consider himself one? I thought he was blackforest
September 3 at 11:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Analytic Thomism. Ack!
September 3 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng Not that the camps are all equally enclosed
September 3 at 11:51pm · Like
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Claire Keeler I've got to turn off those individual email notifications every time someone posts on this thread.
September 3 at 11:52pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer He is A-T (river forest/Lavalian mixture) but coming from an analytic background and addressing Analytics.
September 3 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I don't see other schools of Thomism engaging the Analytics very much on the broader issues.
September 3 at 11:55pm · Unlike · 2
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Adrw Lng You mean metaphysics?
September 3 at 11:57pm · Like
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John Boyer Yes
September 3 at 11:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict To go back to the modern poetry topic briefly, this guy is pretty good: http://fourchamberspress.com/farmers-market-02a/4/
Four Chambers at the Farmers Market!
Four Chambers at the Farmers Market! | independent community literary magazine (Phoenix, AZ)
FOURCHAMBERSPRESS.COM
September 3 at 11:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley Going back to Daniel O'Connell's complaint briefly.
If you grant that beautiful things are things which are consonant with man's knowing powers and that those knowing powers have an ideal state in which they operate at their best, then it is clear that there is a grand unified hierarchy of beautiful things: those things are more beautiful which are more consonant with man's knowing powers when those powers are in their best state.
This account also opens a space for relative beauty: i.e. consonance with a man's powers in any state he finds himself. But to deny the former sense because of this would seem to be odd.
September 4 at 12:04am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John Boyer, although there is a real question about whether the analytics are worth engaging for the sake of their positive contributions to philosophy. Oftentimes it turns out that post-Cartesian philosophy just rehashes sloppily what some medieval philosopher worked out in detail.
September 4 at 12:07am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict That is interesting Ed. It makes me wonder exactly what is meant by "man's knowing powers," since it seems to me that the beauty of a syllogism is not the same as the beauty of a rose.
September 4 at 12:07am · Like
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Edward Langley A particularly amusing example came up in class today: According to Dr. Noone, the Transcendental Thomists' view on the role of God in knowledge (he singled out Lonergan) is basically a sloppy rehash of Henry of Ghent's views of knowledge.
September 4 at 12:08am · Like
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Adrw Lng John I also like Feser
September 4 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Isak, I think the most basic sense of beauty is sensible beauty and syllogisms, etc. are only beautiful by extending the meaning of the term. (This is Aquinas's view as interpreted by Nieto and others at TAC).
September 4 at 12:09am · Like
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Edward Langley But, even admitting that "beauty is said in many ways", comparison doesn't require that one thing be the same kind of thing as another: for example, we say that God is better than I even though there is nothing at all that is common to both of us.
September 4 at 12:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict ^^I agree! So what then is meant by "man's knowing powers?" Does it ultimately mean becoming one with Beauty itself? If yes, then what does it mean before then?
If that doesn't make sense I'll try to clarify.
September 4 at 12:11am · Like
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John Boyer While this is true, engagement should be for the sake of bringing others to truth and correcting the state of philosophy. If we are going to complain about the state of mainstream philosophy and thought in general, we should try to fix it. Engage as a form of intellectual evangelization or combat. It's not to find the truth but to promote it. And we should acknowledge where contemporary thinkers are right. The resurgence in essentialism is good and must be sustained. Imagine if essentialism replaced Humean neoempiricism in Phil of Science. What a wonderful thing that would be.
September 4 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John, while that is right, it's not proposing engagement with post-Cartesian philosophy as an end in itself, but merely as something in the practical sphere.
September 4 at 12:14am · Like
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John Boyer Weapons Grade Thomism (Registered TM of Geoffrey Meadows and John Boyer)
September 4 at 12:14am · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley I was thinking on very mundane terms, Isak: man's knowing powers are the five senses (although, in the first sense of "beauty", only sight and hearing apprehend the beautiful), the interior senses (especially imagination) and intellect.
September 4 at 12:14am · Like
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Edward Langley But I'm not sure I understand the question.
September 4 at 12:15am · Like
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John Boyer Ed, you're talking about appropriating analytic stuff as a means to find truth rather than engaging in dispute, if I read you right.
September 4 at 12:15am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah.
September 4 at 12:16am · Like
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John Boyer That is a fair point.
September 4 at 12:16am · Like
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Geoffrey Meadows Engaging in disputation is the medieval way to find truth.
September 4 at 12:17am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm leery of relying too much on analytics as pedagogues because the fruit of analytic philosophy is almost always some kind of skepticism (especially speculative skepticism.)
September 4 at 12:17am · Like
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Isak Benedict Ah fair enough. I was thinking of the grander meaning of knowing, in which the knower and the known are unified.
September 4 at 12:17am · Like
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Adrw Lng There is a real risk in what you're envisioning John (think Jacques Maritain) but it's also a duty
September 4 at 12:17am · Like
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Edward Langley Isak, that would be implied.
September 4 at 12:18am · Like
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John Boyer I still think it is worth it, even though I still feel like a newcomer to the analytic tradition.
September 4 at 12:18am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Geoffrey, true, but the medievals would first determine which philosophers were worthy disputing partners
September 4 at 12:18am · Like
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Adrw Lng I have found them reasonably welcoming to newcomers in my limited experience.
September 4 at 12:19am · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm just curious about what it means to know the true versus to know the beautiful.
September 4 at 12:19am · Like
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John Boyer I meant in terms of how much I have read.
September 4 at 12:19am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley a.k.a: Not every problem, nor every thesis, should be examined, but only one which might puzzle one of those who need argument, not punishment or perception. For people who are puzzled to know whether one ought to honour the gods and love one's parents or not need punishment, while those who are puzzled to know whether snow is white or not need perception. The subjects should not border too closely upon the sphere of demonstration, nor yet be too far removed from it: for the former cases admit of no doubt, while the latter involve difficulties too great for the art of the trainer
September 4 at 12:19am · Like
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Edward Langley Isak, I'm not sure that "knowing the beautiful" is speaking properly.
September 4 at 12:20am · Like
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Edward Langley The affection in the soul that corresponds to beauty is delight.
September 4 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I also am tempted to think there is a realist position buried deep in late Wittgenstein, but I can't find my copy of On Certainty which has the passages that make me think this
September 4 at 12:20am · Like
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Edward Langley Thus St. Thomas definition "Quod visum placet" --- What, being seen, pleases.
September 4 at 12:20am · Like
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Edward Langley (This is part of what was behind my claim that the proper end of literature is to delight the virtuous man).
September 4 at 12:21am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I like how Ed is keeping up wih two discussions at once.
September 4 at 12:21am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng *nerd alert*
September 4 at 12:22am · Like
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Isak Benedict But you did speak thus: "beautiful things are things which are consonant with man's knowing powers." Did you not mean that to imply that beauty is knowable?
September 4 at 12:22am · Like
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Isak Benedict I agree with your comment about delight.
September 4 at 12:22am · Like
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Edward Langley Yes, but it's not precisely as knowable that it's beautiful but rather insofar as knowing it delights the knower.
September 4 at 12:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Run that by me again?
September 4 at 12:23am · Like
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Edward Langley (major edits)
September 4 at 12:23am · Like
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Edward Langley Did you see the edits?
September 4 at 12:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes, but I think I still need clarifying.
September 4 at 12:24am · Like
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Adrw Lng Ttyl
September 4 at 12:24am · Like
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Edward Langley Something is not beautiful because one can know it.
September 4 at 12:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Er, I mean I need clarification.
September 4 at 12:25am · Like
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Isak Benedict So far so good.
September 4 at 12:25am · Like
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Edward Langley But rather because, when one knows it, one delights in the knowledge.
September 4 at 12:25am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict So it's not beautiful as "known," it's beautiful as "delighted in."
September 4 at 12:26am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley This is also different from the good: that is good which, when known, causes one to pursue it.
September 4 at 12:26am · Like
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Edward Langley Or, more precisely, as "able to cause delight".
September 4 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Consider the difference between seeing a well cooked steak and a beautiful painting.
September 4 at 12:27am · Like
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Edward Langley Apprehension of the former causes one to desire to eat the steak.
September 4 at 12:27am · Like
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Edward Langley Apprehension of the latter causes one to desire to continue looking at the painting.
September 4 at 12:28am · Like
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Isak Benedict Okay I think I see what you're saying.
September 4 at 12:28am · Like
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Isak Benedict What about the apprehension of one's beautiful wife? Seriously.
September 4 at 12:28am · Like
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Edward Langley One delights in attaining the _thing_ which is good; one delights in attaining _knowledge_ of something beautiful.
September 4 at 12:28am · Like
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Edward Langley I think that's a mixed case.
September 4 at 12:29am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Yeah, seems like it.
September 4 at 12:29am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But people often want to show off their wife but wouldn't want to share her with the viewers.
September 4 at 12:30am · Like
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Edward Langley (If that makes sense)
September 4 at 12:30am · Like
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Geoffrey Meadows It seems clear that the philosophical topics, like the theological, were not chosen merely for their intellectual acuity but also for their popularity and influence.
September 4 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well sure, but there's still the fact that apprehension of a beautiful woman causes delight both in attaining _her_ and in attaining _knowledge_ of her.
September 4 at 12:32am · Like
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John Boyer I also find looking to a source from a different tradition helps clarify the Thomistic accounts.
September 4 at 12:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict Perhaps properly only in one individual, but the point still stands.
September 4 at 12:32am · Like
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Edward Langley Then a beautiful woman is both something beautiful and something good.
September 4 at 12:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict Does that mean that knowledge of her is of two kinds at once?
September 4 at 12:33am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Btw, Geoffrey Meadows, welcome to TENT. Unless you commented before I started.
September 4 at 12:33am · Like
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Edward Langley Isak, I think something like that is right.
September 4 at 12:33am · Like
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Isak Benedict Most illuminating
September 4 at 12:34am · Like
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Edward Langley Although, I think I might say that you're mistaking the subject of the terms.
September 4 at 12:34am · Like
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Edward Langley the _knowledge_ isn't good or beautiful but rather the _thing known_ is good or beautiful.
September 4 at 12:35am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict The subject of the terms?
September 4 at 12:35am · Like
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Geoffrey Meadows I realized my mistake too late.
September 4 at 12:36am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, we say the _wife_ is beautiful because when I see the woman, I delight in the sight of her.
September 4 at 12:37am · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We say the _wife_ is good because when I see her, I incline to her as an end of my actions.
September 4 at 12:37am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But still, apprehension of one and the same object would then cause a mix of two desires, based on your steak/painting example?
September 4 at 12:38am · Like
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Edward Langley I think that's right. one desires one's beautiful wife in two ways: (a) as something to be known and (b) as something to be sought.
September 4 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict For some weird reason that duality bothers me, since I want the knowing to be a unifying thing.
September 4 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Or maybe I mean unified thing.
September 4 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think all my position leads to is a twofold effect of the knowledge: an inclination to continue knowing and an inclination into the thing known.
I don't think it changes the unity of the knowledge itself.
September 4 at 12:45am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger we desire the beautiful because it is also good (it is delightful to see). You seem to be confusing desires, Isak.
September 4 at 12:49am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict By the way, I am a little surprised The Thread is not progressing in quite the same exponential fashion as in its halcyon days. Perhaps that will give me time later to write some things about 1) why The Great Gatsby is a great work 2) why I don't like Jane Austen 3) why we live in a golden age of poetry.
September 4 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict No, I was confusing my #gnoses
September 4 at 12:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [I am not mentioning that author again.]
September 4 at 12:51am · Like
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Edward Langley Jane Austen just happens to be the greatest novelist who ever wrote in the English language: not only according to my testimony, but according to John Nieto and Glen Coughlin, both well-regarded tutors at TAC.
September 4 at 12:52am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger She writes well.
September 4 at 12:55am · Like
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Isak Benedict I regard them supremely, but if that is really their position, I think they're wrong. I will formulate a fuller response soon.
September 4 at 12:55am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Although, I think Nieto distinguishes novels from "epic novels"
September 4 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And I'm not sure how that affects his judgment.
September 4 at 12:56am · Like
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Edward Langley I think the thing about Jane Austen is the action and interaction that drives the plot is very subtle: almost all of it happens through dialog between characters rather than in exterior actions.
September 4 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger that is true.
September 4 at 12:59am · Like
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Edward Langley It makes for a more "boring" novel than, say, My Antonía, but I think it's more indicative of what real action is like: when we act, most of the motivation for the action occurs in discourse, whether internal or external.
September 4 at 1:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger Well here is an observation: the silences and subtle (or not) actions of Homer's or Virgil's women reveal more. And every word one hangs on. Fewer words, more said.
September 4 at 1:12am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley But there is a much different action in Homer and Virgil and also a different medium of expression.
September 4 at 1:11am · Like
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Edward Langley The primary way Homer and Virgil present an action is through extended similes.
September 4 at 1:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am disappointed that 13000 has not yet be reached.
September 4 at 1:12am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Their speeches are loaded. Lavinia's silence speaks volumes.
September 4 at 1:14am · Like
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John Ruplinger The mystery. The mystery.
September 4 at 1:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger Homer's similes are amazing. Virgil uses them less.
September 4 at 1:18am · Like
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Edward Langley .
"As, when in tumults rise th' ignoble crowd,
Mad are their motions, and their tongues are loud;
And stones and brands in rattling volleys fly,
And all the rustic arms that fury can supply:
If then some grave and pious man appear,
They hush their noise, and lend a list'ning ear;
He soothes with sober words their angry mood,
And quenches their innate desire of blood:
So, when the Father of the Flood appears,
And o'er the seas his sov'reign trident rears,
Their fury falls: he skims the liquid plains,
High on his chariot, and, with loosen'd reins,
Majestic moves along, and awful peace maintains."
September 4 at 1:20am · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Aeneid, I.210ff.
September 4 at 1:20am · Like
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John Ruplinger In Homer the simile challenges us to make comparisons, to weigh differences and likenesses, some that are very strange, both involving ratiotination and intellectus. He is king of simile (and maybe irony to - a point aristotle implies too)
September 4 at 1:26am · Like
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Edward Langley The previous simile is the one I always think of when I think of an Epic Simile.
September 4 at 1:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger great simile. But they are fewer in virgil.
September 4 at 1:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger and Homer is better. How many times and ways does he use the lion simile (of Penelope too - striking)
September 4 at 1:30am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger so subtle and seemingly unthought. But not so.
September 4 at 1:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger Now to the Neptune simile, compare Aeneas' speech to calm his men after storm. Does he succeed? Is he calmed by his own words? Are his words fitting?
September 4 at 1:38am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley It looks like it.
September 4 at 1:37am · Like
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John Ruplinger What is he trying to accomplish and then what does he do?
September 4 at 1:40am · Like
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John Ruplinger spem vultu simulat, premit altum corde dolorem. I mismembered.
September 4 at 1:43am · Like
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Edward Langley He seems to be attempting to calm his crew: he doesn't calm himself but seems to calm the crew.
September 4 at 1:44am · Like
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Edward Langley Kinda speaks to the common position of a leader.
September 4 at 1:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger He feigned hope with his face, pressed deep in his heart grief. . . . . But their are untruths in his speach. They had suffered no loss (except by famine). Are his words convincing?
September 4 at 1:48am · Like
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Edward Langley His men seem convinced.
September 4 at 1:49am · Like
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Edward Langley "The jolly crew, unmindful of the past,
The quarry share, their plenteous dinner haste.
Some strip the skin; some portion out the spoil;
The limbs, yet trembling, in the caldrons boil;
Some on the fire the reeking entrails broil.
Stretch'd on the grassy turf, at ease they dine,
Restore their strength with meat, and cheer their souls with wine."
September 4 at 1:49am · Like
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John Ruplinger o passi graviora is not true. What does he list? What is the hope? . . . . They avoided scylla and the cyclops.
September 4 at 1:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger not one word of it is quite true. They will not have peace nor refound Troy. . . . but you are right that they are calmed not he "sick with vast anxieties"
September 4 at 1:58am · Like
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John Ruplinger You are right Edward. They were calmed by a poor speech.
September 4 at 2:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger that's funny.
September 4 at 2:01am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think it's necessarily a poor speech.
September 4 at 2:02am · Like
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Edward Langley A speech can be well constructed and persuasive, even if it employs lies and/or untruths.
September 4 at 2:02am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger my favorite line is " perhaps one day it will delight to remember these things"
September 4 at 2:03am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger they just lost most their comrades!
September 4 at 2:05am · Like
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John Ruplinger That and the one ship of allies that is lost gets no funeral. no speech. nada. they are totally forgotten.
September 4 at 2:11am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger not sure what to make of it but they dont seem much concerned about there lost comrades except aeneas
September 4 at 2:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger But then his worry and grief are not named and could be the lost hope.
September 4 at 2:15am · Like
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Edward Langley Anyways, need to turn in. Interesting conversing about this.
September 4 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pShuE09VsjI
Cricket sound 8 hours of nature forest sounds full night relax meditation zen music
This song was created to assist in the practice of...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 7:18am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele you guys stopped before 13000? I'm disappointed...
September 4 at 7:43am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Similogism!
September 4 at 8:09am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Nina I think that school has just started, so people are suddenly too gainfully occupied to tend to TNET
September 4 at 8:16am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me it is tough to persuade around a lie. Aristotle and Longinus seem to underscore this. This restores faith in TNET.
September 4 at 8:53am · Like
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Nina Rachele gainfully occupied? what's that...
September 4 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I didn't say lie. I think he goofs up. But his biggest gaffe is to say that they will remember this with delight. That could be said of scylla and the cyclops but can you imagine saying, "remember that time we lost all our friends in hurricane katrina. Good times, man. Those were the days." But he seems to say kinda dumb things like this all the time. Not like others.
September 4 at 9:29am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia the Aeneid brings up an interesting point re: music today. some have lamented the lack of good poetry, or music or whatever in today's culture. But look back at Roman culture circa Virgil. Can we say that there were some things that would make people today blush? Probably. Don't make we start translating Catullus....
September 4 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Omnino nihil novi sub sole.
September 4 at 9:39am · Like
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John Ruplinger Catullus is like who? Cyrus Miley?
September 4 at 9:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger I am not a fan of much of Catullus. But Passer is hard not to laugh at. . . . . and he has no match in english. It was high brow perversion.
September 4 at 9:48am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not a huge fan of Catullus either, but some of the filthiest Latin poetry around (and don't get me started on Petronius)
September 4 at 9:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger totally agree. LIS no one comes close in English. Did you know Juliet references Passer? (There is a running joke that classicists are all really pervs. Its true of many and they are sooo weird. I did not want to be one of them. . . . such strange folks. I dont get it.)
September 4 at 9:57am · Like
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Joel HF Passer as in the Catulus poem? And where is this reference? I'd never heard that before.
September 4 at 9:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger cf. 2.2. 176 et passim. Especially 183 . . . But R& J is nothing but bawdy humor and a slam against romances.
September 4 at 10:24am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger good play if you pass over the innuendo. Otherwise HS students have an arsenal of pervert jokes.
September 4 at 10:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger actually 2.2.183 is a great line. She does cherish him too much (ie in the wrong way). But the parents are most to blame imo and the friar too. Romeo is such a self pitying sap, a puddle of tears.
September 4 at 10:32am · Like
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John Ruplinger Too funny. When i arrived at one school they had the Oxford editions and whited out every explained innuendo (in every book ). I just used the Dover instead.
September 4 at 10:37am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I blame the parents.
September 4 at 10:37am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Plus, teenagers are dirty.
September 4 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Romeo and Juliet loved eachother the way teenagers should.
September 4 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Just in beautiful iambic pentameter.
September 4 at 10:38am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Daniel, love each other to mutual suicide? you must have had a rough teenagerhood
September 4 at 10:41am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman eh, kids are stupid.
September 4 at 10:41am · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger not sure about that Daniel: there love was not right but the parents are most to blame.
September 4 at 10:41am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Modern Bowdlers with a case of white-out.
September 4 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Kids are even stupider when their parents are stupid
September 4 at 10:41am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^that's the moral of the story.
September 4 at 10:41am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Their love wasn't perfect. But they were young. Young people are imperfect and love imperfectly. That is not blameable.
September 4 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I suppose, but middle aged people are imperfect and love as such too. I blame Tybalt.
September 4 at 10:44am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It would not be believable (or interesting) at all if Rome and Juliet loved each other with prudence and temperance.
September 4 at 10:44am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am 30 and perfect. So there.
September 4 at 10:44am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng It's called a tragedy for a reason, per Daniel's comments
September 4 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I thought 33 was the perfect age.
September 4 at 10:45am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^Shut up.
September 4 at 10:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oops.
September 4 at 10:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I guess I am not perfect.
September 4 at 10:46am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Meanwhile, those damn Darwinist bastards have planted yet another "fossil" to fool the weak minded: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../dreadnoughtous-schrani...
Meet Dreadnoughtus, An 'Astoundingly Huge' New Dinosaur
Say hello to Dreadnoughtus schrani, a newly discovered...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
September 4 at 10:47am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger of course not Adrw. And we mostly agree.
September 4 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland There you go again trying to control the TNET. Only TNET knows when to shut people up.
September 4 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I apologize.
September 4 at 10:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman 65 tons.
September 4 at 10:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Huge.
September 4 at 10:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Heavier than a 737.
September 4 at 10:49am · Like
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Joel HF Speaking of censorship, Viltis used to take a razor blade to the Art books in the library, or so I was told.
September 4 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No!?!?!
September 4 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland AHHHHHH, Joel are you SERIOUS???? I'm not sure I believe that.
September 4 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Say, "it ain't so!"
September 4 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That sounds like a legend.
September 4 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland It's got to be a legend.
September 4 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Viltis is not the kind to blush at a penis.
September 4 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Or any other kind of anatomy for that matter.
September 4 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I did not mean to be sexist.
September 4 at 10:50am · Like
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Joel HF Literally burst out laughing at work, Daniel Lendman!
September 4 at 10:50am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, Catherine Ryland.
September 4 at 10:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman at.
September 4 at 10:51am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^13000
September 4 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Good work..
September 4 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I do what i can.
September 4 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland So what if God created the dinosaurs and made them look old?
September 4 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (I'm not really serious.)
September 4 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Well, I could be mistaken (and hope I am), but it would be a double waste because the foolish (or indifferent to danger?) couples who went into the library's "art room" weren't going in there to look at pictures of fine art, dirty or not.
September 4 at 10:52am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman That would be stupid. But God is not stupid. Therefore, etc.
September 4 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Therefore Viltis did not cut out the pictures.
September 4 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I learned to knock pretty early on.
September 4 at 10:53am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Two arguments at once.
September 4 at 10:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I intentionally did not knock.
September 4 at 10:53am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland I just think she had more respect for beautiful things than that.
September 4 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Like I said above^
September 4 at 10:54am · Like
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Joel HF Hoping to get a glimpse, were we?
September 4 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^Voyeur.
September 4 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Lonely times.
September 4 at 10:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia I worked for Viltis for four years, I never saw her cut anything (had some of her Kahlua though)
September 4 at 10:55am · Like · 5
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Joel HF That makes me feel better.
September 4 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Meanwhile, whose on board for Denver going to the Super Bowl again?!?
September 4 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No one, huh?
September 4 at 10:57am · Like
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Catherine Ryland ^What's the Super Bowl?
September 4 at 10:58am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
September 4 at 10:58am · Like
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Catherine Ryland I imagine some of us will be sitting here getting TNET past 500k. No time for these Super Bowls you speak of.
September 4 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Just to be recursive: https://www.facebook.com/GoesOnForever/photos/exp.1538672269682439.unitary/1538672029682463/?type=1&theater
September 4 at 11:00am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia getting to the superbowl? possibly. winning it? not likely
http://gfycat.com/RigidGrizzledAyeaye
funny - Jiffier gifs through HTML5 Video Conversion.
Jiffier gifs. share your gifs with the world on the fastest gif...
GFYCAT.COM
September 4 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It depends on whom they are up against, yeah.
September 4 at 11:04am · Like
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Adrw Lng http://buttersafe.com/comics/2011-02-08-superbowl.jpg
BUTTERSAFE.COM
September 4 at 11:06am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Adrw, I marvel at how you are unable to appreciate the glory that is the Professional Football.
September 4 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eXSIsNS4tw
O'doyle Rules! (Car Scene) - Billy Madison (1995)
My favorite scene from the 1995 film starring Adam...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yep. Just like that.
September 4 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Baseball > football
September 4 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ugh, I don't know if I can handle another Super Bowl
September 4 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.footballz.org/.../01/SuperbOwl.0000000000.jpg
FOOTBALLZ.ORG
September 4 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe My son was literally in tears until we sent him to bed at the half
September 4 at 11:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That was epically disappointing last year, Samantha.
September 4 at 11:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So was I.
September 4 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe *epic.* The whole town was in mourning the next day
September 4 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I still don't know what the hell happened. But I don't really get football
September 4 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It was like we were cursed or something. Didn't Matthew J. Peterson advance a thesis about God smiting the Broncos for forsaking his prophet, Tebow?
September 4 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^yep.
September 4 at 11:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman They should have kept Tebow.
September 4 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman He could have learned a lot from Manning.
September 4 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As it is, Denver is looking even better this year, despite losing Welker for the first four games.
September 4 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's not going to be as fun rooting for them here where I can't see the stadium lights from my house
September 4 at 11:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger seahawks on meth high smacked down on some old men. Not pretty. Didnt watch.
September 4 at 11:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Denver choked. Big time.
September 4 at 11:19am · Like
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Pater Edmund Sadly I only have time for one comment right now, but I wanted to ask whether anyone has brought up MacIntyre's interpretation of Jane Austen, and ask what people think of it. Bye
September 4 at 11:21am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe NOOO COME BACK!!
September 4 at 11:22am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What is MacIntyre's interpretation? Was that in After Virtue? sounds a bit familiar
September 4 at 11:22am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger thanks. Pater. Haven't read that.
September 4 at 11:24am · Like
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Scott Weinberg TNET cannot be wielded by men; only Hobbits.
September 4 at 11:25am · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Cast the TNET into the fiery chasm from whence it came!
September 4 at 11:35am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti The problem is that if we destroy the TNET, Matthew will be destroyed with it and the beauty of TAC will fade and the tutors will return to the sea.
September 4 at 11:36am · Like · 9
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Samantha Cohoe ^^wins^^
September 4 at 11:37am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Except this analogy is confusing me, because the only candidate I can think of for uniting and ruling the land after TNET is destroyed and the tutors sail to the undying lands is Scott, and that *can't* be right
September 4 at 11:42am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger On a hasty review. It is interesting and i forgot how good Austen is. But i think Austen / aristotle get pride / magnanimity wrong. True magnanimity accompanies true humility. "Humility of Heart" by Cajetan describes it best. Austen falls back into the Aristotelian error.
September 4 at 11:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Seems like Emma contradicts this notion.^
September 4 at 11:48am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman What I mean is that she is humbled, and it is in this that she learns to be truly magnanimous. No??
September 4 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger In the end I dont think Liz and Darcy overcome pride and prejudice, only possible by grace or at least veerry difficult without.
September 4 at 11:50am · Like
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Nina Rachele Macintyre thinks Austen and Ben Franklin were the preeminent ethical thinkers of their era.
September 4 at 11:50am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^There is something very true about this.
September 4 at 11:51am · Like
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Nina Rachele ethical or moral I don't remember which. Let me go grab my copy...
September 4 at 11:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger You have to read Cajetan. I had no clue what it was before. Being humbled doesnt necessarily lead to humility. I would have to reread Emma.
September 4 at 11:53am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yep, that can't be right.
September 4 at 11:54am · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Lizzy and Darcy may not overcome pride and prejudice completely, but they certainly make some pretty significant strides in that direction
September 4 at 11:55am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger HUMILITY OF HEART is amazing.
September 4 at 11:55am · Like
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Nina Rachele "Jane Austen is in a crucial way [one of the last great representatives] of the classical tradition of the virtues"
September 4 at 11:56am · Unlike · 3
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Nina Rachele He talks about her in two different sections... you might be able to Google book it but it is too long to quote here.
September 4 at 11:58am · Like
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John Ruplinger Where does MacIntyre write on this? I just read a googled review. [posted at same time as above.]
September 4 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele anyway, need to go to work...
September 4 at 11:58am · Like
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Nina Rachele 239-243 After Virtue
September 4 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger thanks. Nina
September 4 at 11:59am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele also 181-187
September 4 at 11:59am · Like
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Joel HF After Virtue has been "at the top" of my reading list since I graduated from TAC. One time I did read the first 20 pages though. * sigh *
September 4 at 12:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Austen again (insert dog-vomit comment here)
September 4 at 12:03pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele one point he makes that's important is that Austen may make fun of a lot of people, but only when she views them as not fulfilling their real social roles, not because they have a particular social role.
September 4 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger more than I, Joel. [But Ben Franklin! ]
September 4 at 12:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele Oh, you. (directed at...everyone)
September 4 at 12:06pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg “Jane Austen Meets Sophocles” -- a play in one brief scene: Elizabeth Bennett is seated in English garden, holding a cup of tea. She sips tea, places the cup on a small stand, next to fine-china teapot. Enter Oedipus the King. Sitting next to Elizabeth, he upends the tea stand awkwardly. The tea set smashes on the ground. Crestfallen, Oedipus stands, gouges eyes out. Elizabeth feints [or faints]. The end.
September 4 at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Nina Rachele ok, really going to work now.
September 4 at 12:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Old Ben and FDR are curse words in some households ya know.
September 4 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Anyone else read "Humility of Heart"?
September 4 at 12:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, I think I'm with you on Franklin. And you've suddenly come around on Austen, so...this is a day of wonders, eh?
September 4 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger i never said she wasnt good . . . . I just dont seem to agree with her fundamentally and we may be getting at it. It is a good discussion.
September 4 at 12:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what was Elizabeth feinting? feinting a left hook for the tea set? I don't get the play
September 4 at 12:37pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Thomas Hall So, let's see, we're now talking about MacIntyre on Ben Franklin and Jane Austen. Right. Bored now. If you'll excuse me, I'll return to Homer, Sophocles, and Seferis.
September 4 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Austen = much ado about nothing . . . . broken tea pots. What would she do in the face of real tragedy, MB?
September 4 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia stop feinting and hit somebody
September 4 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I have no issue w/ someone saying "Austen isn't my cup of tea" or "Austen is good and all, but I have serious disagreements over X." After all, I think Tolstoy may be the best novelist ever, and I disagree with just about every conclusion the man ever came to in his life.
September 4 at 12:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia who would win in a boxing match between Portia and Elizabeth Bennett?
September 4 at 12:45pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF A great deal of the contumely heaped on Austen here however had fairly clear ulterior motivations.
September 4 at 12:46pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Pace Daniel O'Connor: Cervantes was clearly the greatest novelist and Don Quixote the greatest novel. He could totally take Elizabeth Bennett.
September 4 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Laywyer.
September 4 at 12:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--Elizabeth was clearly playing cards. Some critics contend that she used the breaking teapot as a distraction not merely to feint but to cheat as well.
September 4 at 12:48pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Joel, my only point from the start was the over praise of Austen. And keep in mind that to me the substance always takes place over art. That is just the way i am. Not everyone is like me. Does that make sense?
September 4 at 12:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so Portia gives her the smack-down? Is Shylock in her corner?
September 4 at 12:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Shylock would certainly be a better fight trainer than Mr. Darcy
September 4 at 12:52pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joel, ulterior motives? I think i have been up front.
September 4 at 12:57pm · Like
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Joel HF That makes sense, although separating out the "substance" of a work of art can be difficult, I think. I mean, does the fact that War and Peace supposedly illustrates LT's idiotic view of history (that's too harsh, perhaps a "wrongheaded" view of history is better) mean that, as a work of art, it is lesser?
September 4 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Padding stats here.
September 4 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger For me it does. But as with Austen I can still admire the art. It loses its lustre AND rereadability for what one can learn and more profoundly admire. That is all.
September 4 at 1:01pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ruplinger--"ulterior motives" was perhaps a poor choice of words, and not really aimed at you anyway. I just mean that the "she's for girls, let's read Hemingway and drink scotch and quote the Iliad battle scenes" is clearly more about the reader than the work.
September 4 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF Also, the substance of Austen is great!
September 4 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But to defend the detractors a bit, Austen's world seems small and the men almost effeminate. I think that is a fair complaint. P and P is one of the few with more manly men and even they seem selfish and small minded.
September 4 at 1:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger substance was the wrong word perhaps. I will have to think on it.
September 4 at 1:21pm · Like
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Joel HF One of the few with manly men? I dunno, there are manly men in just about all of them, I'd say.
September 4 at 1:21pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Dicken's world was broader and deeper.
September 4 at 1:24pm · Like
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Joel HF Certainly broader. I'd dispute deeper; in fact, depth is one of the main problems I have with Dickens.
September 4 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger maybe. My memory is terrible. His strength is in detailing individual character.
September 4 at 1:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger He is more earthy and homely and your not afraid of breaking tea pots.
September 4 at 1:34pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Just for the record, I'm totally on board for Denver going back and winning the Super Bowl.
As for the censoring of the blushing Viltis, I have a great story. A priest I knew a long time ago told me he was in Rome and hanging in the Vatican archives with a friend who worked there. They began discussing iconoclasm, censorship, and the differing take on nudity from age to age. He asked my friend if he'd like to see something interesting and led him down a couple levels below to what seemed a crowded storage level. He then produced an ornately carved box, with crush velvet purple lining. A series of custom padded spaces had been carved into the case and each one held a marble penis. The Great Penises of Western Civilization. I guess the story was that at a point the ideological tide turned and they were ordered to chisel them off, but the curators saved them in case the tide reversed and they could be reattached.
September 4 at 1:34pm · Unlike · 7
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Andrew Whaley That story should be good for another few hundred on the thread.
September 4 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger pics? What would Austen say?
September 4 at 1:39pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I have no pics and don't really want to plug "Great Penises of Western Civilization" into a Google image search.
September 4 at 1:40pm · Edited · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger just kidding.
September 4 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Pics or it didn't happen
September 4 at 2:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No Joel HF, "ulterior motives" was perfectly correct
September 4 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson At this pace we will surpass the Dow in another 10 days or so, correct?
#TNET20000
September 4 at 2:30pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Andrew just regenerated TNET in one move
September 4 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dickens?? Seriously?
September 4 at 2:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That story was the best.
September 4 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Best laptop for around $500?
To be used heavily but for light purposes = writing, multi-multi-tab and multi-browser interweb researching, PDF hoarding, and occasionally playing video to TVs.
September 4 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Manly Austen characters: Col. Brandon, Mr. Darcy, Cpt. Wentworth, Mr. Knightly. That’s the male lead in four of her six main novels. I think the idea that there are no manly characters in Austen is ridiculous. These guys are, to paint rather broadly, take-charge, stubborn men, who don’t like talking about their feelings—this last point fairly drives the plot in a few of the novels. Some of them have extensive military experience, and the ones that don’t still own lots of land and like to hunt. Powerful rich men with guns and cigars, the lot of them. And so I’d argue that these guys are the stereotypical “strong and silent” manly type.
But I’m not sure why this matters at all, because far more importantly, they are fully realized, three dimensional characters that reflect the reality of Austen’s day. Yes, they wore tight pants, cravats, and had UC English accents. No, they didn't drink Bud Light, play fantasy football or watch MMA. Yet I'm not so sure the latter is an improvement, where "manliness" is concerned.
September 4 at 2:34pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger no i havent read Dickens in very long. But his world is more inhabitable. And fun even with the suffering. [Samantha]
September 4 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Has anyone seen or written a description of TAC which doesn't reference "catholic", "God", or "love"... I'm updating my CV and I do not want TAC to look like "Thomas Aquinas Bible College"
September 4 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe By "effeminate" John means "appealing to women"
September 4 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Tight pants ARE manly
September 4 at 2:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia that's an interesting distinction: appealing to women or being like a woman.
September 4 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia because my manly tight pants appeal to women.....
September 4 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Anyone else interested in the D. Berquist logic discussion group? Speak now, etc.
September 4 at 2:43pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo
Bueller...
Classic scene from the much-loved 80's film, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti http://www.theonion.com/.../guy-in-philosophy-class.../
Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up
HANOVER, NH—Darrin Floen is unfamiliar with John...
THEONION.COM
September 4 at 2:44pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I take back effeminate. And there are several real men. That is not it but I think I am figuring it out.
September 4 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's O'Connell and not O'Connor Daniel. Get it right.
September 4 at 2:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I promise you, they are very different.
September 4 at 2:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Re: appealing to women vs. being like a woman
September 4 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You talking to me Giglio. Cause we can take this outside. You want?
September 4 at 2:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Can I ask TNET's advice about accepting Scott's friend request? I am torn.
September 4 at 2:50pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill:
Great Books program, no electives, no textbooks, all original works (including math and science), all seminar style classes. Degree equivalent to a double major in Philosophy and Theology with a minor in Math and Natural Science.
September 4 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That's on my CV
September 4 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill awesome. Thanks Peterson
September 4 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Far better than: A Liberating Education
Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is to discover and grow in the truth about reality. It is the truth, and nothing less, that sets men free. And because truth is both natural and supernatural, the College offers an academic program that aims at both natural and divine wisdom.
This curriculum presents the arts and sciences of liberal education as a comprehensive whole. There are no majors, no minors, no electives, and no specializations. The four-year interdisciplinary course of study makes use of the original writings of the great philosophers, historians, mathematicians, poets, scientists, and theologians of the West. Homer, Herodotus, Plato, Euclid, Aristotle, St. Augustine, Shakespeare, Einstein, and especially St. Thomas Aquinas are among the authors read.
There are no textbooks. There are also no lectures in the classroom. The curriculum is a sustained conversation in the form of tutorials, seminars, and laboratories guided by tutors who assist students in the work of reading, analyzing, and evaluating these great books. Students develop the lost tools of inquiry, argument, and translation — in critically reading and analyzing texts, in mathematical demonstration, and in laboratory investigation.
Equipped with these tools, the graduates are fortified to undertake any area of study, professional training, or vocation. Grounded in the arts of thinking and with a broad, integrated vision of the whole of life and learning, every subject becomes an open door. Even more important, alumni are prepared to live well the life of the free citizen and of the Christian.
September 4 at 2:53pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti John, that was a drive by TNET post. Wasn't actually reading the thread. My apologies.
September 4 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Post graduation, who academically or professional would take this statement seriously? (outside of entering religious life in the Dominicans or Norbertines)
September 4 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill: You could use the middle two paragraphs, or a variation/shortening of them, I think.
September 4 at 2:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I wouldn't use the first or last graph though.
September 4 at 2:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh the one hand, I respect the dragon-level trolling to which TNET is a testament. On the other hand, do I want that level of trolling in my usual facebook? Tough choice.
September 4 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Exactly... that was a direct cut-paste from the TAC website: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education
A Liberating Education | Thomas Aquinas College
Thomas Aquinas College believes that to learn is to...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 4 at 2:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill In order for the college to be taken seriously, it needs to advertise to more than just Catholic parents looking for a safe Catholic place for their Catholic children
September 4 at 2:58pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe For realz
September 4 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele That seems to be what it wants to be. I went because I thought that it would be like St. John's but with a nicer campus and a lower price tag, but it tries very hard to be a Catholic bubble instead.
September 4 at 3:01pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill The whole olde "it is not Magisterium enough" line was a joke, since the school does not graduate you as a Canon Lawyer
September 4 at 3:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You should be good to go, Jeff Neill, just don't mention... (gasp) Dogma.
September 4 at 3:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, as a former teacher of many TAC students and alumni, I regret to inform you that for many, "Orthodox Baby Sitting Service" is a feature, not a bug.
September 4 at 3:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The first question you're always gonna get during any interview is this:
"I can see from your resume here that you've studied a lot of math... but what about poetry, have you done any of that?"
September 4 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger What is wrong with bubbles? (Do you mean kids there to be safe and not to learn?)
September 4 at 3:17pm · Like
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Joel HF What do you teach, Aaron?
September 4 at 3:24pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele Bubbles discourage learning. The oppressive rules prevent personal growth, as well as fresh thoughts and applicants who think outside of the box.
September 4 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I like how there's a story about severed statue penises in the middle of the comments about Dickens.
September 4 at 3:28pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger guess i cant speak to that. The HS and MS liberal arts schools i have taught at didnt have that problem . . . . save one.
September 4 at 3:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think the bubbles discourage learning as long as the people in the bubble are there because they want to learn.
September 4 at 3:36pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, it depends on the learning in question, of course.
September 4 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, it wouldn't be TNET without penii
September 4 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg If you graduated from Christendom College, and you're at your first job interview, you're probably gonna get asked what the "instaurare omnio in Christo" written at the top of your resume means. Just a heads up.
September 4 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yes... TAC is the self-filling pitcher... but a self filling pitcher does not serve the purpose of being a pitcher. Unless the intent is to create teachers that only teach Past/present/future TAC students, you need to change the design. However, those that already fit this description or wish to fit this description are not the best (or lack the the ability) to describing any other possible form. http://www.extremetech.com/.../BoylesSelfFlowingFlask-1...
EXTREMETECH.COM
September 4 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe wow, excellent illustration.
September 4 at 3:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we used to call it a "fishbowl"
September 4 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The self-filling pitcher is why TAC needs to build a new Office of Evangelization.
September 4 at 3:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The purpose of a pitcher is to convey liquid is to make things wet. The other things that can be made wet are many, and there are different ways to do it, some are more efficient (heh heh) than others.
September 4 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The "office" needs to teach efficiency and objects upon which wetness can be applied
September 4 at 3:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is wetness a quality?
September 4 at 3:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Exactly.
September 4 at 3:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill yes
September 4 at 3:43pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Joel, I taught Latin and Math.
September 4 at 3:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg thank you
September 4 at 3:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill if the world is dry and TAC has all the water, the challenge is to make the world wet
September 4 at 3:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That pitcher has the faculty of wetness
September 4 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg wetness = gnosis and cannot be dumped on just anyone.
September 4 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill wettitude
September 4 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill some refuse to go in the water... Scott
September 4 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill or do not wish to swim
September 4 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill or go against the water
September 4 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill drowning is possible
September 4 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia aquatiousness
September 4 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg the office is about exploring the available means of wetaphor, wetagism and wethymeme.
September 4 at 3:47pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Thomas Aquaticus
September 4 at 3:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia humiditatem
September 4 at 3:48pm · Like
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Adrw Lng What's the link to the Berquist group again? Joel HF
September 4 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Aquaman is the most useless superfriend: discuss
September 4 at 3:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill agreed.
September 4 at 3:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aquaman has special sonar powers and communicates with the sea monsters and the beasts of the sea.
September 4 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg We share the same Creator as the sea monsters and beasts of the sea.
September 4 at 3:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Leviathan is a sea monster.
September 4 at 3:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The great Leviathan once roamed the sea,
The nemesis of all humanity.
That ancient dragon tempts your soul t'enthrall,
But rest assured, Our Lord has conquered all.
(May those who curse days curse the day when Leviathan is roused. Job 3: 8)
September 4 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland #aquagnosis
September 4 at 3:55pm · Like · 3
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Andrew Whaley Come on Jeff Neill, we are one the "soberest" colleges in America. Two years running!
September 4 at 3:57pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley LOL
September 4 at 3:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm just guessing you graduated in 2012, Andrew. LOL
September 4 at 4:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aqualicious.
September 4 at 4:07pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley The few hundred feet surrounding the campus is not technically the college. Hence...
September 4 at 4:11pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg I rise today in support of Aquaman the movie. The time is now. Do the right thing, Hollywood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNQTw4HdzxQ
Aquaman 1960's Cartoon Series - Introduction
Aquaman is a Filmation animated series that premiered...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 4:18pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The drunkenness at the prospective tutor dinners alone should disqualify us from any talk of being "sober." Even technically.
September 4 at 4:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, the drinking "ad hilaritatem"
September 4 at 4:20pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Michael - that's penisia, I believe. Louis CK said so
September 4 at 4:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Which is virtuous, like devotion.
September 4 at 4:21pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Was there like a mass weed mailing that everyone got in the mail? I didn't know a facebook thread could be psychedelic til just now...
September 4 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Nina, you haven't been paying attention, then. : )
September 4 at 4:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe penisia would be a neuter plural form, which seems wrong.
September 4 at 4:27pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwvB4_Te8A
Willy Wonka And The Chocolate Factory
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 4:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Most parents pay $ to send their kids to college so they can make $. Part of this is peer group, etc. It has many facets.
Religious parents often send their kids to college thinking primarily about how they will keep religion within our cultural context, stay on the path, become good people and develop the soul, and ultimately attain eternal blessedness, etc.
So the fact that most parents probably send their kids to TAC in order to pay for a peer group or for something like a bubble isn't very surprising.
Now, there are lots of other options along the above lines if that is what you are looking for, of course, which begs the question why TAC in particular - and here they make the educational and liberal arts argument +.
September 4 at 5:35pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.libertylawsite.org/.../post-collegium-ergo.../
Post Collegium, Ergo Propter Collegium: On the Destruction of Higher Education in...
LIBERTYLAWSITE.ORG|BY GREG WEINER
September 4 at 4:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I wonder if there's a graph showing the income levels of Catholic liberal arts graduates. That would be interesting to see.
September 4 at 4:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The advice I give my girls about college, marriage and money is to look at the Scriptures. What does the Bible say? In the Bible, we see that our Lord does not discriminate between the rich and the poor man. He treats them the same. That said (I tell my girls) you might as well go for the rich man!
September 4 at 4:50pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg After I graduated from Christendom college, I masqueraded as a Victorian liberally educated man of leisure (without inheritence) for about 10 years. After that got boring and perilously close to being harmful to my family, I finally got my first real job, and started making a decent salary.
September 4 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think most male grads of all these schools spend about 10 yrs before getting on track
September 4 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Things always work out for those with poetic gnosis. If you understand math but not poetry (or vice versa), keep reaching across the aisle. It all comes together, and there's always someone who can help.
September 4 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg May TNET be like the golden ladder.
September 4 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia golden gnostic ladder
September 4 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Consider the Cricket:
The little Cricket sings a song of hope,
A song of love, in God's eternal scope.
If little Crickets sing of things thereof,
Then how much more can we sing of His love?
September 4 at 5:17pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Let me just put this out there:
Higher education is crap. It rips off the parents, the students and the majority of the faculty. It is unnecessary, for the most part, expensive, in the main part, and ridiculous.
But..... nobody learns anything in high school any more so in order to avoid being a mouth-breathing cretin....
horns of the dilemma?
September 4 at 5:18pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris nature and facebook are the best teachers.
September 4 at 5:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger TNET - a virtual education. [Truth. I learned more from reading groups and discussion with friends than most my classes with a few notable exceptions.]
September 4 at 5:33pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris has anyone considered the nexus of metaphysics and quantum physics?
September 4 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris JR-virtual meaning-almost?
September 4 at 5:35pm · Like
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Frank Morris i crushed the head of a cricket today, it was causing my daughter dismay, i through it in the trash bin fast, I hope cricket season does not last.
September 4 at 5:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I learned almost no Latin or Greek more than what I had before i started college. 24 credits to spin my wheels.
September 4 at 5:39pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris yesterdays Latin: Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis
September 4 at 5:38pm · Like
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Frank Morris todays greek: adiabatic
September 4 at 5:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger virtual = interweb
September 4 at 5:45pm · Like
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Frank Morris did you look up adiabatic JR? some people are working very hard to make sentient machines.
September 4 at 5:48pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris sentient people is good enough for moi.
September 4 at 5:48pm · Like
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Frank Morris Matthew J. Peterson has now considered the metaphysics of quantum physics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
Kool & The Gang - Celebration
Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg TAC is a real formation. It hurts. You suffer. Christendom was like this too, but in a different way. In a good way too, though. It's hard to get a formation without suffering a bit. My oldest daughter just entered KU. She's studying to be a physical therapist. That's great. And she has had a good formation.
September 4 at 6:01pm · Like
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Frank Morris suffer to get to the celebration. Play it again Kool.
September 4 at 6:03pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg People, my book just got purchased by the bookstore at the Basillica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in DC, which is one of the biggest stores in the country. Please pray for it. It's a break for a poet. It's a catholic devotional in medieval form, with real metaphor and enthymeme, plus master engravings from Buffon's Natural history.
http://www.catholicculture.org/comm.../the-city-gates.cfm...
The Blessed Book of Beasts
There is a long-standing Judeo-Christian tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual lessons. Jesus used...
CATHOLICCULTURE.ORG
September 4 at 7:05pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg http://www.rna.org/news/184377/Beasts-from-the-East.htm
“Beasts from the East” - RELIGION | NEWSWRITERS
Fairfax, VA (For Immediate Release) -- Eastern Christian...
RNA.ORG
September 4 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
September 4 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger To follow up on MB and vent more. UD led me to a pit of scepticism that Pieper helped me out of. But I did enjoy friends, beer-brewing and grabbed me a good Irish child bearing woman on the way out of grad school.
September 4 at 6:10pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger latin poetry: culinarium et cubiculum est locus . . . kai ta loipa . . .
September 4 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think latin poetry is easier to rhyme than English.
September 4 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Latin poetry wasnt rhymed til medieval times. Old English wasnt rhymed neither. But meter . . . . no real poet does without.
September 4 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Wow, not only did I leave for a grueling 12 hr overnight shift, I also decided to sleep 5 hrs before returning to TNET, and TNET is only just above 13,000!?
September 4 at 6:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Interesting to hear that Pieper pulled you out of the pit, John. His books have a certain fetching quality, but I never felt like they really delivered on their promise. Leisure as the Basis of Culture comes to mind. Was there one you found particularly helpful?
September 4 at 6:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger easy catch up
September 4 at 6:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That was it, Jeffrey. Actually, Philosophic Act, the second essay.
September 4 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Anyhow, 19 hrs of catching up.
No one's aesthetic judgment is perfect, Edward Langley. Consider this, Mr. Nieto, in his back house, with Fr. Charles playing the guitar and they are singing Fleetwood Mac.
Or consider that Coughlin took his future wife, for a first date, to a Grateful Dead concert (which is just fine), but now repudiates such music as disordered. Sean Collins was far wiser, and remarked it was not healthy to listen to only classical music. (Though I admit, after Fr. Michael Perea hit me in the head with a book for listening to the Grateful Dead, Coughlinn did concede that the tracks I liked were "tolerable" as folk music....American Beauty ftw!)
September 4 at 6:28pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Dickens was my favorite author...in 3rd grade...seeing he was the only author the library had at my reading level (we were tested and then required to read at or above, and to improve by a certain measure....I scored 13+, i.e. college level, so no room for improvement....)
Dickens is the greatest penny novelist. Like Tom Clancy for the latter 20th century. Not one of the great authors, but fun nonetheless
September 4 at 6:30pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Joshua, that's not the point, though: the fact that our senses of sight and hearing have a nature necessitates that there be a best disposition of those senses and an order among the objects of sense (and, mutatis mutandis, the same holds true for imagination and intellect). Thus, there must be something which is objectively "most beautiful."
Judging that is another matter.
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But i think philosophy is different than he says. Or I should say he descibes a part only.
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz God is most beautiful
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But I suppose you're referring to my claims about Austen?
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Everything else is more or les, and in different respects
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It's clearly SoCal 80s punk
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley extenso nomine.
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am merely referring tothe argumentum ad authoritatem
September 4 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Nothing more, nothing less than what I said.
September 4 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley It was slightly confusing . . . I had both an argument about the superiority of Austen as a novelist and an argument about the objective order of beautiful things.
September 4 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I didn't realize until after I posted that I wasn't sure which one you were addressing.
September 4 at 6:33pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz In anycase, using Nieto and Coughlin as "close the case" authorities is what I was attacking, not in an altogether serious manner (but seriously, Fr. Charles and Nieto, Fleetwood Mac....you cannot forget that)
September 4 at 6:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nieto and Coughlin I don't treat as "close the case" authorities: for that, I bring out Marc and Duane Berquist
September 4 at 6:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I haven't finished catching up yet! (and again "not in an altogether serious manner")
Ben Franklin was no ethicist. Not in his published works, which at best off platitudes and have more in common with self help books than ethics, or in his personal, flagrantly sinful and debauched life
September 4 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, Tebow stunk....really, not a great player there
September 4 at 6:38pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Someone was filming Nieto & Fr. Charles singing Fleetwood Mac, I fervently hope. Please say someone has the video!
September 4 at 6:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Samantha Cohoe, speaking of drunken tutors, ad hilaritatem. Just because I am a pedant....Aquinas no where says "usque ad hilaritatem"
It was from a German, Prümmer...and he is talking about what is normally a venial sin
Imperfect inebriation is, on its own part, only a venial sin. The reason is that such an inebriation is, of itself, a light disorder not destroying the use of reason. Also, with an existing sufficient extrinsic cause, for example, for taking away melancholy, at nuptials and other worldly festivities, imperfect inebriation is, of itself, no sin, unless still if scandal or some grave inconvenience arose hence. Hence to drink even to the point of hilarity {lightheartedness} is certainly not illicit per se, but a cleric, a head of the family and other persons constituted in dignity ought to avoid hilarity of this sort, since grave scandal and other grave inconveniences are able arise easily from hence.
Ebrietas imperfecta est ex se solum peccatum veniale. Ratio est, quia talis ebrietas est ex se deordinatio levis non destruens usum rationis. Existente sufficienti causa etiam extrinseca, e. gr. ad melancholiam pellendam, in nuptiis aliisque festivitatibus mundanis, ebrietas imperfecta ex se nullum est peccatum, nisi tamen inde scandalum aliudve grave incommodum oriatur. Hinc bibere usque ad hilaritatem per se quidem non est illicitum, sed clericus, paterfamilias aliaeque personae in dignitate constitutae evitare debent huiusmodi hilaritatem, quoniam facile exinde oriri possunt grave scandalum, aliaque gravia incommoda.
Dominicus Prummer, O.P. Manuale Theologiae Moralis: Secundum Principia S. Thomae Aquinatis. Vol II pg. 520
September 4 at 6:43pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF, perhaps if I had been the sort to have a cell phone I could have filmed it...but I don't think anyone there had the means to film. And it was just Mr. Nieto, Fr. Charles, Mr. Nieto's mom, his brother and I....at the time I lived with them!
And in all seriousness, Edward Langley, I do actually trust Nieto's aesthetic judgment, but we all are wrong about somethings (cough...Austen...cough)
September 4 at 6:46pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger YES. Joshua. Such a common misquote.
September 4 at 6:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Couglin & Nieto are not meant to shut down discussion (though Nieto in particular has a fairly strong aesthetic sense, in my opinion), but neither is saying that after reading Austen you went out and recited bits of the Iliad while drinking scotch.
September 4 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Karen Zedlick once sang the Beatles ("Nowhere Man") to me while playing the guitar on smoker's patio. It was glorious. Stopped traffic.
September 4 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I remember that
September 4 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Neither what? I was attempting to be humorous, not altogether serious, let alone trying to close the argument (I thougt, on the contrary I was throwing fuel on the fire!)...and I did not drink any Scotch...I believe it was bourbon
September 4 at 6:49pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not sure if it was an intimate moment between us or if it was the greatest rejection ever.
September 4 at 6:49pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Josh, someone should tell the tutors that.
September 4 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Either way - I miss Karen. Say hi to her, people, whenever you visit. I don't think it is altogether easy to be from another country and a woman on that faculty.
September 4 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia right up there with when she told you that chewing tobacco was sub-human
September 4 at 6:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And a non-Catholic
September 4 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson When Domiane Forte was chewing in class too but I got in trouble...
September 4 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia some of us know (knew) the non-Catholic feeling
September 4 at 6:51pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Our hates come from our loves.
September 4 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And as to Austen. I'll say this and then stop, although I never had time to start.
It is no proof of anything, perhaps, but I used to remark that bachelor male tutors teaching young females seemed to especially love a certain plotline involving a man nearly 20 years the senior of a gal he helps teach/raise hooking up with her in the end...
September 4 at 6:55pm · Edited · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
September 4 at 6:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They found it very, very, very beautiful.
September 4 at 6:55pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia follow in discipleship....
September 4 at 6:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Not creepy at all. Oh no - it was a different time then. But still cool, when you think about it. Totally understandable. And very, very beautiful.
September 4 at 6:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia bwah!
September 4 at 6:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beautiful like Lolita?
September 4 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger So, Joshua, what do you think of Austen?
September 4 at 6:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Older, married male tutors with many children generally seemed to have a more ... balanced take.
September 4 at 6:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson But obviously they are incredibly written works that do spring from what in some ways was a very civilized culture, yadda yadda yadda.
But demographics of fanboy clubs often reveal much.
September 4 at 6:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I have a thesis finally. But to compose it would take time.
September 4 at 7:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If there had been single tutors like knightly some of us would have been into it
September 4 at 7:02pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Laura Berquist is a case in point.
September 4 at 7:08pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But in general, no. Not a lot of insanely wealthy but perfectly moral dudes like Mr. Knightly becoming tutors these days. Or ever.
September 4 at 7:10pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson See this video, or at least the very end where he does a version for women:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKWmFWRVLlU
Hot Crazy Matrix - A Man's Guide to Women
Join us on FaceBook! https://www.facebook.com/HotCra...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 4 at 7:15pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Think I finally stopped laughing.
September 4 at 7:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Here is my serious view of Austen (which I posted a while back)
1. As far as her technical skill, she is great.
2. The setting and, for lack of a better term, atmosphere of the works, do not appeal to me.
3. I think I may appreciate her more, if I was more familiar with the historical backdrop of her writings, particularly the sentimentalist works that preceded her and she in some measure was a correction too.
4. I have not read her often enough or recently enough to give an informed opinion over most of the intricacies. Nor do I have the time or desire to do so at this point of time.
5. While characterizing her as a high brow chick-lit is unfair, I was introduced to Austen via a very feminist reading. While at the time I saw that as somewhat forced, it still colors the reading of Austen for me.
6. Hence the, somewhat jestful act, along with several other students, of "re-man-ifying" ourselves after the seminar. This was as much a jest against the somewhat overhyping of her by some fellow female students, as a joke on ourselves (men of course are only moved by glory, violence, war etc)
7. I say overhype, not overrated. What I mean is that, while it probably isn't fair to Austen, there were some who were quick to exalt her before even considering her work as such precisely because she was the "great female author" This overhyping is seen in the wave of Austen-fandom that happened a few years ago. It didn't actually take her seriously for her work, and if anything skewed the perception of Austen unfairly, toward the chick0lit category
8. There is also this, in my experience the two type of Austen fans were either those turning her into a chick-lit or elitists, still with a touch of feminism, who opposed her to the more martial classics. I am allowed to have some fun at their expense! And it did not dispose me to liking Austen
Perhaps my opinion would change if I read her again, or got that historical backdrop. Perhaps it would have been different if I had first read her without any lenses coloring her against my tastes. But this is where I stand hic et nunc.
Now I shall resume my minor attempts at trolling...someone needs to fuel TNET back to exponential growth!
September 4 at 7:20pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz James Yeager?! That guy is batshit crazy...and I say that as a gun nut
September 4 at 7:22pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer Josh, you might be a gun nut, but Yeager is just a nut.
September 4 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think whoever made that video is probably a lunatic. But it went viral because it bears some cartoonish truths within it.
September 4 at 7:23pm · Like
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John Boyer Plus it's funny.
September 4 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Matthew, that video was super obnoxious. I made it through a minute before blah..... there's enough misogyny in the world, it doesn't need a TNET reference
September 4 at 7:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Even feminist blogs were linking it. It's made its way through pop internet culture. And let's not pretend it doesn't have some relation to reality in a shallow way, especially in this culture.
September 4 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh I agree, but on principle as soon as I see Yeager, I have to insult him....for other videos of his (such as threatening to shoot people if Obama does X or Y)
September 4 at 7:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I bet those who made it are misogynist loons, but it still hits the funny bone for a reason.
September 4 at 7:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nah had to give up. It perpetrates the stereotype that juvenile guys like: hot=crazy.
September 4 at 7:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Again, I couldn't make it through a minute. I don't hate women enough for that
September 4 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I watched one minute and now i feel personally betrayed by you, Matthew J. Peterson
September 4 at 7:28pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I didn't even know that about the "authors" but I could sense these people were crazy.
September 4 at 7:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger My thesis is that there is a grave spiritual vacuum in that day. It led then to Dido like failings and eventually some contemporary rot. But Austen portrays it magnificently.
September 4 at 7:32pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia seriously, when are we going to put to rest the junior high ideal that crazy=freaky
September 4 at 7:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you don't think extreme beauty comes with baggage you should come to LA some time.
September 4 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia living in LA comes with baggage, you should come to Chitown some time.
September 4 at 7:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (and I'll fly to LA if you'll put me up for a long weekend)
September 4 at 7:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Or read the ancient Greeks.
September 4 at 7:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia intellect comes with baggage
moral virtue comes with baggage
September 4 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The hot crazy matrix is usually presented in a more linear way, where crazy and hotness are inversely proportionate
.
In reality, as we all know, the true matrix is hot, sane and smart...pick two. But we all know TAC girls are usually a good mix of all three (though some of them not so much in the middle, but that is from a malady affecting men too...and I have only seen it at TAC)
September 4 at 7:32pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz, have I mentioned that you are one of my favorite facebook folks?
September 4 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And yes, people: women do tend to overlook looks in favor of wealth and stability and men do tend to overlook wealth and stability for looks.
That's just the sick old world we live in.
September 4 at 7:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's not perpetuate it.
September 4 at 7:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Though I'm not sure what you were getting at directly above.
September 4 at 7:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Rosary call
September 4 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Like the comedian says about being single or married, male or female: there are two states in life - lonely or annoyed.
September 4 at 8:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I feel so bad for TAC women. The men get a much better deal. The girls don't realize until it's too late. The fishbowl effect helps us more than them.
September 4 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Thus is the world --- No, .... thus have we made the world...best line from the Mission
September 4 at 7:37pm · Like
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John Boyer I agree with Mr. Kenz on most of his points above, although I did not experience the Austin hype until leaving. I felt no need to remasculate myself in seminar.
September 4 at 7:39pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I missed some of the background, but I had several teacher crushes, at least one at TAC and at least one female...
September 4 at 7:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think I fell madly and platonically in love with Mr. Nieto during Senior Philosophy, but really, who didn't? (Don't answer that...)
September 4 at 7:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz @Joel HF Oh, there were plenty of attractive and smart and sane ladies at TAC. There were also a few insane ones, in a way only TAC can house insanity. This insanity I also observed in some of the males. Interestingly all homeschooled, all from more insular like environments. In my experience the boys did overcome this better at TAC then similarly affected ladies.
September 4 at 7:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (The female teacher crush wasn't at TAC...)
September 4 at 7:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland The cloak people? Fainting cloak people?
September 4 at 7:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I don't know that they were all homeschooled by any means.
September 4 at 7:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I wasn't even thinking about the cloak people! I saw that more as a weird eccentricity than craziness. It is hard to give hard examples while not naming names, and I think that would be detraction in this context. Let's just say that being homeschooled is one thing, being completely isolate in your development...no homeschool group, parish involvement, etc, just insular is quite another and there were a few at TAC raised in such environments...and while some overcame it, more or less, I think the TAC effect on others worsened certain of the dispositions that arise from such a state.
September 4 at 7:47pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Throughout my life, I've occasionally been surprised to find out some not very boy-scoutish friend of mine was an Eagle scout (e.g. my roommate Jr. and Sr. years). Thus it was also at TAC, I'd be regularly surprised to learn that so-and-so WAS homeschooled (but that person knows how to make eye-contact and everything!) or that so-and-so was NOT (but that person refuses to communicate in anything other than Elvish!).
September 4 at 8:14pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I mean seriously, who doesn't' know what the middle finger means? "Must be a California thing"....followed by insistence that I am making it up and need to go to confession....okay that was a lighthearted (but real) example, paling in comparison to what I had in mind.
FWIW, it took me to junior year to disabuse the notion among some that I was homeschooled....and even in senior year some still thought that.....Not sure what that says about me.
September 4 at 7:50pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger yes. Homeschool is not the best. Ours are about every other year. Some environments at home are better than others.
September 4 at 7:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Let's face it, there are some crazy-ass people at TAC, but the worst that I remember weren't homeschooled. Not to name names or anything, but let's just say "yellow ninja costume" and "vaguely Germanic albino-assassin chic."
September 4 at 7:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF (And this isn't to say anything bad about those individuals. Just that they were a bit eccentric.)
September 4 at 7:53pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti My wife calls odd-ball off the grid homeschool Catholics "fundamentalist Mormon Catholics."
September 4 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well I suppose every class is different, and I by no mean am saying that public schooled kids can't be crazy! But eccentrism, and deeply rooted social problems are quite different. Maybe I was more attuned to noticing it in certain people more than others....maybe it was because I was the social outcast most of the time growing up, and even these people seemed socially stunted to me. But it wasn't the mere not socializing that was the issue. These people had some warped view on and really unhealthy approaches to reality (judgmentalism, uber piety masking it, and unhealthy attachments)
But this is all anecdotal. Perhaps I just hit the crazy jackpot in my experience. Since it seems limited to my experience, or perhaps my class (I am sure some suspect who I am thinking of), no need to press it. We can leave it at the more general observation that sane, beautiful and smart were not unheard of at TAC.
September 4 at 7:58pm · Like
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John Boyer Going to a small liberal arts school where everyone lives on the same campus, secluded from civilization after being in a small secluded homeschool house does not a normal person make.
September 4 at 8:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF So, Hans Urs Von Balthazar--arch-heresiarch or prophet and saint of new springtime?
September 4 at 8:03pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Both!
September 4 at 8:04pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Damning with faint praise there, kenz.
September 4 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I have a curious affection for the actual TAC oddballs although I roundly mocked them at the time... The truth is weird people are everywhere.
September 4 at 8:04pm · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF I was very fond of you as well, Andrew.
September 4 at 8:05pm · Unlike · 6
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Joshua Kenz Lang, I always though you were one of the weird people (not crazy)?
September 4 at 8:05pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Oh wait, were you talking about TAC oddballs OTHER than yourself?
September 4 at 8:05pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Homeschooling is not the ideal way to educate children. Discuss.
September 4 at 8:05pm · Unlike · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti I have done both, Samantha Cohoe. It can be great for some kids and great for some parents, but a disaster for others. In short, it depends. I dearly wish we could have made it work.
September 4 at 8:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger accenda ossa eius sunt.
September 4 at 8:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, that much should be fairly evident, in the abstract.... even assuming that a parent has the time and knowledge to do it all, he ust then also put effort in being part of a community in some other way. Perhaps in a different era (oh 20 years ago seems likes that) where kids did not need helicopter parents, and played in the streets, parks and yards, etc, they could socialize without arranging it. I am afraid no more!
Most homeschoolers I know partook to homeschool groups, helped teach each others kids, kids went to a junior college or something for certain subjects....it seems the natural tendency in homeschooling that is not anti-social is to start forming a loosely networked school itself
September 4 at 8:09pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I firmly assert (to myself, over and over) that there is a difference between delighting in zaniness and actually being uncouth and strange, lol. I had a roommate ones who didn't know what pot was... tell me about that
September 4 at 8:09pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Parents are the primary educators, and teachers are in loco parentkis, or should be. It is no natural function of the state to provide education either.
But it is a natural function for education to be social. And this is seen especially in the Church. The Church did not respond to mandatory schools through championing homeschooling, but through building a parochial school system, that at one time was open and even free to most Catholics and could be relied on. That was much closer to the ideal...but that too is largely bygone...even good Catholic private schools cost more money than many can reasonably afford...especially large families
September 4 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i remember a passage in Waugh's E. Campion where he mentions the secluded Catholic families went a bit luny. It is what happens.
September 4 at 8:13pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Right - you could add smarts into the matrix along with looks and crazy.
Sorry for betraying you, Samantha Cohoe. It was unintentional. My wife and I were both slightly bemused by the video.
September 4 at 8:15pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Pick your poison. I have seen it all.
September 4 at 8:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well off again....but before I go, more flame for the fire.
JA Escalante, Balthsar's view of Christ's descent into hell, where He suffered the pain of the damned, stems from the Calvinist heresy and ends at best in Nestorianism....discuss
September 4 at 8:15pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson TAC is often a halfway house for people coming from loony religious cults.
September 4 at 8:16pm · Like · 7
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Joel HF Oh, sh** just got real!
September 4 at 8:16pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Very true.
September 4 at 8:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It does a good job of helping normalize them, at least so far as this is reasonably possible.
September 4 at 8:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Though for some it is a halfway house from one such cult right into another. Vide: this thread.
September 4 at 8:17pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng I think a related question to Samantha's is, what are sine qua non qualities of a parochial school? I've been wrestling with this question because we have a mediocre Catholic school locally. Alternative is homeschooled, color me nonplussed.
September 4 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, Mr Clark is the exception that proves the rule
September 4 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The Thread transcends cults: it contains multitudes of them within it.
September 4 at 8:18pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I gave up on academics at the parochial. Do they teach the Faith and are kids happy. I find the academics are decent if the first two criteria obtain.
September 4 at 8:21pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua : pish posh.
September 4 at 8:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger we were lucky to have very rural schools with mixed grades. But they too are being centralized: one core to rule them all and in the darkness . . .
September 4 at 8:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson JA Escalante: can Calvin and Luther be reconciled? Don't they deeply oppose one another re political philosophy, among other things?
September 4 at 8:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger von B: ossa eius incendantur. I exaggerate, but I heard he had regrets at the end. Does he know whether hell is empty? How was Spyier not a false mystic? The criteria are pretty clear.
September 4 at 8:40pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew-- re: halfway house for loony religious cults, that was totally true for me.
September 4 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I have seen way to crazy stuff in Catholic cults. Legionnaires are not the lone loonies. What a mess!
September 4 at 8:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, it's true, there are lots of ways for parents to remedy homeschooling's inherent deficiencies. And of course it is often the best course available for a family.
September 4 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But the inherent deficiencies are very, very real.
September 4 at 8:44pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joshua should be banned for doing that. Joshua incendus est.
September 4 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Ratzinger > Von Balthazar
September 4 at 8:53pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF But Ratzinger is one of H Von B's biggest fans
September 4 at 8:56pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF In fact, if an ex-pope can be a fanboy, Ratzinger is one for HvB, far as I can tell.
September 4 at 8:56pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew J. Peterson: yes, they are already reconciled. They have fundamentally the same doctrine on all major points except the mode of Christ's presence in the Supper
September 4 at 8:58pm · Like
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Joel HF Is Roy on facebook?
September 4 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But what as to their notion of politics? Aren't you trying to resurrect Calvin here as opposed to Lutheranism and watered down modernism?
September 4 at 9:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger trouble, trouble, trouble. Let's talk about Newman.
September 4 at 9:00pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Calvin and Luther's political theology is one thing. See the work of Torrance Kirby who proves it, or Paul Avis
September 4 at 9:05pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and yes let's talk about Newman, whom we've all read
September 4 at 9:05pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Ratzinger has transcended his mentor
September 4 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng But seriously, mediocre parochial or homeschooling completely solo?
September 4 at 9:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Classical school!
September 4 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Forget the Catholic part!
September 4 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously, evangelicals are rocking some small classical schools these days.
September 4 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^plain truth
September 4 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Where are you these days Adrw?
September 4 at 9:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What is mediocre?
September 4 at 9:53pm · Like
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Joel HF I just watched "The Cosmopolitans." All hail Whit Stillman.
September 4 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb and I liked it too.
September 4 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Seemed apropos, given how much Metropolitan references Jane Austen.
September 4 at 10:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Whit Stillman isn't as good without Chris Eigeman, though
September 4 at 10:07pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^THIS!
September 4 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Barcelona is my favorite.
September 4 at 10:08pm · Like
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Joel HF Stillman wrote a large part for Eigeman in "Damsels" and was reportedly quite upset when Eigeman turned him down.
September 4 at 10:09pm · Like
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Joel HF I think Metropolitan is mine, but it's a tough call.
September 4 at 10:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What?? Why did Eigeman turn him down?
September 4 at 10:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is he doing some other thing I am not familiar with?
September 4 at 10:09pm · Like
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Joel HF I believe the other thing he is doing is "not acting"
September 4 at 10:10pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe disappointing.
September 4 at 10:10pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Did not know that about Eigeman. He is great in Barcelona.
September 4 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF He's great in all of them
September 4 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell True. I especially liked the back-and-forth, though, between him and Taylor Nichols.
September 4 at 10:13pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Matthew, TAC has never normalized anything in its entire existence. That's not the point.
September 4 at 10:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell His riff / re-reading of the closing scene of The Graduate is classic.
September 4 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Domiane Forte You got in trouble, Matthew, because you were dribbling all over yourself while proving a prop. Learn to swallow, man. Man that was an awesome sequence with Karen, though.
September 4 at 10:18pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell But how about Chris Eigeman's character in Kicking and Screaming (1995). I realize that's Noah Baumbach and not Whit Stillman, but still ... if there is any better film about one's first year after college, I'd like to know what it is.
September 4 at 10:24pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yankees!!!!!
September 4 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF A friend of Lucy Ferrier wrote a piece on Metropolitan that I rather liked: http://spectator.org/.../what-it-about-%E2%80...
What Is It About ‘Metropolitan’?
On March 16, Whit Stillman's debut comedy, Metropolitan, left the Netflix streaming library. Such changes are...
SPECTATOR.ORG
September 4 at 10:35pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Someone said above that poetry is meter, but not necessarily rhyme. But Aristotle says it is more than just meter.
"People do, indeed, add the word 'maker' or 'poet' to the name of the meter, and speak of elegiac poets, or epic (that is, hexameter) poets, as if it were not the imitation that makes the poet, but the verse that entitles them all to the name. Even when a treatise on medicine or natural science is brought out in verse, the name of poet is by custom given to the author; and yet Homer and Empedocles have nothing in common but the meter, so that it would be right to call the one poet, the other physicist rather than poet. On the same principle, even if a writer in his poetic imitation were to combine all meters, as Chaeremon did in his Centaur, which is a medley composed of meters of all kinds, we should bring him too under the general term poet."
September 4 at 10:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But at least poetry does not need rhyme, but meter and metaphor (or imitation). Metaphor is RNA.
September 4 at 10:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dithyrambic poetry being a metrical song.
September 4 at 10:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And dancing: In dancing, rhythm alone is used without 'harmony'; for even dancing imitates character, emotion, and action, by rhythmical movement.
September 4 at 10:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The rhythm of dance with words is meter, and song can be added and this is where the earliest epics may have come from.
September 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This being said, what form is well-suited for today: this post-modern wasteland, in the cave "under the shadow of the red rock" with new glimmers of light?
September 4 at 10:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley The poetic for Aristotle, though, seems to be a much broader scope than what we today would call "poetry".
September 4 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley For one thing, Aristotle seems to characterize the subject of the poetic art by having a plot: which is common both to "poetry" and to prose writing.
September 4 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz JA Escalante, admittedly I am not intimate enough with Calvin to accuse him of agreeing with Balthasar....that was a low blow!
But I do think Balthasar's ideas on the harrowing of hell are only coherent in a Nestorian context. And his whole eschatology opens up a lot of issues (e.g. the immortality of soul, true and false about statements said of those that died before Christ...it is almost incoherent thought, but it seems that he says that if it were 500 BC and I said Abraham is in the limbo of the Fathers, that would have been true, but it is false to say now that Abraham had been there, since when we die we awake in the eschaton...the particular and genera; judgments are combined, and there is no period of being a disembodied soul before resurrection... none of these absurdities would I accuse Calvin of)
For that matter, I am fairly certain that Calvin does not deny Christ had divine knowledge, which Balthasar does deny (both wrt beatific vision and infused knowledge of divine things). It would be a question, that I am not familiar enough with Calvin himself to answer, what the suffering of Christ in Hell, for Calvin, entailed with regard to Christ's knowledge, particularly the beatific vision. Balthasar says any admixture of divine knowledge would lessen His passion and detract from that. I don't think that is true.
September 4 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Metropolitan is excellent, as is Barcelona and, of course, Last Days of Disco.
September 4 at 11:34pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well if I am not going to have an argument over Balthasar, how about a related one (as far as it concerns ideas about death)
The Archdiocese of New York and Cardinal Dolan share the anti-Catholic attitude of the ancient Romans wrt to relics. Evidence: ADNY has stood in the way of +Sheens' cause, blocking attempts to exhume the body (as required by Church law) and +Dolan has said he won't let 1st class relics be taken, as it goes against American sensibilities. Discuss
(I am giving up if this doesn't start a fire)
September 4 at 11:51pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua: Calvin doesn't share any of von B's peculiarities. von B is a kook in my opinion. I don't like the soap-opera Trinitarianism, the kenoticism, the ridiculous name-dropping, or the weird Swiss seeress
September 4 at 11:56pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz What was Calvins view vis-a-vis Christ and the Beatific vision? I did read a part of the Institutes on the descent into hell. But I haven't read much else of him himself.
September 4 at 11:57pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante If you want to start a fire here theology isnt the way to do it. You have to say that a line is made up of an infinite number of points, or that Lobachevsky is right, or that TAC teaches too much math. TACers don't care about theology. They care about math
September 4 at 11:59pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict I'll fight about anything
September 5 at 12:00am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz But seriously, if only for my own edification....what was Calvin's view on Christ as viator and comprehensor
September 5 at 12:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Same here Isak!
September 5 at 12:01am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Thought for the evening: anime is terrible. All of it. Discuss.
September 5 at 12:02am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict That includes Death Note, Attack on Titan, Cowboy BeBop, et cetera.
September 5 at 12:06am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Dolan seems to have been sliding ever since he wen to NYC. Very sad.
September 5 at 12:11am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Dolan, sliding? Surely you jest!
September 5 at 12:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell New York City is the capital of the world. Peoria can suck it.
September 5 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell *puts on boxing gloves*
September 5 at 12:25am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Then why won't he let Sheen be exhumed and dismembered.....wow when you say it that way
September 5 at 12:26am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Peoria?
September 5 at 12:26am · Like
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John Ruplinger "Bravo!"
September 5 at 12:27am · Like
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Michael Horton End sexism! Just thought was relevant to something in this thread. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Sharks-nine-times-more...
Sharks nine times more likely to kill men than women, study says - Telegraph
Australian scientists baffled by finding that men are...
TELEGRAPH.CO.UK
September 5 at 12:27am · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger He was archbishop of Milwaukee where he knew me on a first name basis by 'Tex'.
September 5 at 12:31am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The way I heard the story, not only was the body to be exhumed but then it was supposed to be transported to the diocese in Peoria.
(Milwaukee rocks, by the way. One of the most underrated cities in America.)
September 5 at 12:31am · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger Now he is the proud grand marshal of which parade?
September 5 at 12:32am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Don't start with the Irish bashing ... I'm warning you!
September 5 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I have been cast out of Milwaukee into the desert tundra.
September 5 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger My kids are Irish and my wife could take you. Just saying.
September 5 at 12:36am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and my three year old irish german lad could out drink you.
September 5 at 12:38am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Dolan. Dolan watchee been a drinkin.
September 5 at 12:40am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Ryland: I get it, but no. TAC has COMPARATIVELY normalized many a cultist.
September 5 at 12:40am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Relative.
September 5 at 12:41am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua, pm me on Calvin
September 5 at 12:41am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson JA Escalante: I'll have to read your boys, but from what I've read of Luther and Calvin the idea that they agreed on politics and religion seems self-evidently ridiculous.
September 5 at 12:42am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante then you haven't read them
September 5 at 12:43am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante for just one very basic thing, the reason historians now call them the *Magisterial* Reformers as opposed to Radical Reformers is because Luther and Calvin are on the same page about the Christian magistrate.
September 5 at 12:45am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell @John: Das bezweifele ich ...
September 5 at 12:51am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That seems wild to me. Some texts on the morrow.
September 5 at 12:50am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger No doubt. Dolan is lost. Kyrie eleison.
September 5 at 12:54am · Like
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Edward Langley It seems to me the sentiments about TAC expressed above call for another cheer from Daniel Lendman
September 5 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Anyone else feel odd about two of the Luminous mysteries? I find the titles of the third and fifth mystery feel out of place when compared to the other eighteen mysteries.
September 5 at 1:02am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (I would prefer that the third be "The Sermon on the Mount" and the fifth be "The Last Supper")
September 5 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Michael Venegas Luminous mysteries?
September 5 at 2:17am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg So plot would have to be an element of a poem, along with imitation and meter. I wonder what plot and meter would be fitting for a poem today? I wonder.
September 5 at 2:17am · Like
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0
Experience the power of a bookbook™
At only 8mm thin, and weighing in at less than 400g, the 2015 IKEA Catalogue comes pre-installed with...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 2:22am · Like
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Michael Venegas Hey Scott. Long time.
September 5 at 2:22am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Too long.
September 5 at 2:23am · Like
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Scott Weinberg "Poetry in general seems to have sprung from two causes, each of them lying deep in our nature... The reason why men enjoy seeing a likeness is, that in contemplating it they find themselves learning or inferring. For if you have not seen the original, the pleasure will be due not to the imitation as such, but to the execution, the coloring, or some such other cause. Imitation, then, is one instinct of our nature. ... Next, there is the instinct for 'harmony' and rhythm, meters being manifestly sections of rhythm. Persons, therefore, starting with this natural gift developed by degrees their special aptitudes, till their rude improvisations gave birth to Poetry."
September 5 at 2:28am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg "Having passed through many changes, poetry found its natural form, and there it stopped." Where is it today? In various forms, including the novella.
September 5 at 2:34am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg "the Plot is the imitation of the action."
September 5 at 2:30am · Like
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Nina Rachele Isak have you watched Naoki Urasawa's "Monster"? Just curious...
September 5 at 7:54am · Like
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Joel HF Since literature seems to be the only controversial subject these days,
September 5 at 8:39am · Like
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Joel HF A modest thesis: Casaubon was a great intellect destroyed by a silly woman. http://www.independent.co.uk/.../the-truth-about-casaubon...
The truth about Casaubon: a great intellect destroyed by a silly woman
MIDDLEMARCH is done. The repeat of the last...
INDEPENDENT.CO.UK
September 5 at 8:40am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- that is hilarious.
September 5 at 8:49am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.mcsweeneys.net/.../the-canon-of-philosophy...
List: The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Songs.
“Total Eclipse of Descartes” “Don’t You (Foucault About...
MCSWEENEYS.NET
September 5 at 8:51am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Eliot is pretty rough on all academics through Casaubon.
September 5 at 8:52am · Like
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Joel HF She's nicer to hard science academics through Lydgate though.
September 5 at 8:56am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But look how she punishes him for flirting with Rosamond!
September 5 at 8:56am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Possibly a stress induced heart attack would have been kinder.
September 5 at 8:58am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I have watched the entire hot crazy matrix video and have to admit it was a little bit funny.
September 5 at 9:56am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I gave up after about a minute. I have no sense of humor.
"how many feminists does it----"
THAT'S NOT FUNNY!!
September 5 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It’s good to read Thomas and Aristotle, but they seemed to hold to flawed opinion in regards to some key issues on the human soul, which underscores the need for dogmatic theology in the Catholic liberal arts formation. It is interesting to examine the theological basis of the Immaculate Conception.
“The proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception expresses the essential datum of faith,” and “prescinds from [cuts away from] all explanations about how the soul is infused into the body.” [Aristotle and Thomas seemed to assert that the soul animates the body after conception. Aquinas seemed to hold the efficient cause of generation is the male, while the female is only the material cause: ‘In perfect animals, the active power is… of the male, according to the Philosopher in De Generatione Animalium, but the matter of the fetus is what is provided by the female.’ Summa Theologiae, Ia, q. 118, a. 1, ad 4.]
Thomas seems to have held that the human rational soul is created and infused into the body only when the human parents have, by their generative act, produced a material substance that is disposed to receive and to be informed by a human soul. In one place Aquinas follows Aristotle in saying that the rational soul is infused at 40 days for males, and at 90 days for females... (See: St. Thomas' Commentary on the Book of Sentences, Bk. III, dist. 3, q. 5, a. 2, Responsio; John Haldane and Patrick Lee, Philosophy 78, 2003, 255-278).
“The special commission of theologians set up by Pius IX to determine the revealed doctrine assigned the essential role to ecclesial practice. And this criterion influenced the formulation of the dogma, which preferred expressions taken from the Church's lived experience, from the faith and worship of the Christian people, to scholastic definitions.”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DEFINED BY PIUS IX
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 12 June, the...
EWTN.COM
September 5 at 12:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Nina I have not. Should I? Will it convert me?
September 5 at 12:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, for the sake of argument (duh) what if it were the case that it took 40 days for a human to be "ensoulled"? Isn't that the point at which we would say that human person is conceived? before that, you'd have a mess o' cells that weren't a person. So EVEN if there were a mistaken notion of biology and human ensoulment, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception would still be true.
September 5 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Nope. In fact, this is why the Dominicans opposed the idea of the Immaculate Conception.
September 5 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Per, Edward Langley's request:
I am the best!!!
TAC is the best!!!
USA! USA! USA!
September 5 at 1:08pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Peyton Manning is the best!
September 5 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg O most Holy Virgin, who was pleasing to the Lord and became His mother, immaculate in body and spirit, in faith and in love, look kindly on me as I implore your powerful intercession. O most Holy Mother, who by your blessed Immaculate Conception, from the first moment of your conception did crush the head of the enemy, receive our prayers as we implore you to present at the throne of God the favor we now request...
(State your intention here...)
O Mary of the Immaculate Conception, Mother of Christ, you had influence with your Divine Son while upon this earth; you have the same influence now in heaven. Pray for us and obtain for us from him the granting of my petition if it be the Divine Will.
Amen.
September 5 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott, I'm not sure that the ensoulment question is really the key issue here. Prior to ensoulment, St. Thomas teaches that there is no original sin to forgive. ST III Q 27 A2. The error in the Summa seems to be when he states that her sin persisted post conception (and ensoulment). Thomas seems to have retreated from this view later in his life, for what it's worth. (See his commentary on the Angelic Salutation.) (I say all this tentatively, as I'm no expert on his teaching on the subject.)
September 5 at 1:14pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman In fact, the question of ensoulment can still be validly brought up today.
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Adrw Lng Do tell Daniel
September 5 at 1:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know what there is to tell. My only point is that I do not know that the Church's definition of conception has to coincide with a medical definition. Consequently, a position such as Michael forwarded above seems plausible. I do not know that I am compelled to believe that a zygote has a human soul.
September 5 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So fellow souls of TNET, I'm looking for great recommendations of short novels or novellas. If we must use a measurement, I really enjoy books between 35,000 and 55,000 words. What does TNET have to say? Give me your best!
September 5 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's precisely the question. to say that the BVM was preserved from original sin "from conception" doesn't mean December 8th 14 B.C.
September 5 at 1:49pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Isak, Monsignor Quixote by Graham Greene.
September 5 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak, have you read any Knut Hamsen? I liked Hunger and The Growth of the Soil
September 5 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Is the question of ensoulment a metaphysical or a biological question?
September 5 at 1:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley A biological question, with metaphysical implications.
September 5 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF A metalogical question only reached after many syllophors and metagisms.
September 5 at 2:02pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Even if we have to take the "conception" in the IC is a biological notion, we are not forced to deny delayed ensoulment.
In the case of the generation of Christ (?) Aquinas says he was "all there" from the first instant. There is an objection to the effect that a full human cannot be present until the matter has been sufficiently prepared by the action of prior agents and that this must take time. To that objection, Aquinas responds that (a) what a posterior agent can do, the first can do; so God can dispose the matter himself an (b) something that takes a finite agent time to do can be done all at once by a infinite agent. Consequently, God could dispose the matter to receive Christ's soul in an instant. He could have done something similar in the case of the immaculate conception.
September 5 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Which I think would mean biologically that Mary never lacked a nervous system and never lacked sense.
September 5 at 2:04pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Is there a biological question that the matter is properly disposed to be human upon conception? i.e. what is conceived is a human?
September 5 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I think everyone would say that everything along the way is human and even a distinct human life but not that they are necessarily complete human lives.
September 5 at 2:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng sure
September 5 at 2:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Joel, obviously St. Thomas is the pre-eminent theologian of the Church. This is not meant to be critical of St. Thomas, Aristotle or the Dominicans. I bring it up because the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception helps illustrate the overall precedence of the Church's dogmatic theology. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception prescinds, departs from, from Thomas' view of ensoulment. Thomas' application of ensoulment, and that of the Dominicans, was flawed in this case. Chances are his view of delayed ensoulment is also flawed: there appears to be no basis for it. The Dogma means that Mary was free from all Original Sin, fully and wholly, from Her conception. And Mary is not only the Mother of God and the Immaculate Conception, she is also the same kind of being we are. This would suggest that our bodies and souls come into being at the same time at each of our conceptions. Hence, life is sacred from conception.
September 5 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele Isak It may not convert you, but it is a show I would recommend to even to someone who doesn't like the format. It thoroughly spoiled me for most other anime and now the only stuff I can really watch is Miyazaki and a few of the moodier more stylistic shows.
September 5 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott, when was Mary's conception?
September 5 at 2:17pm · Like
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Adrw Lng My Neighbor Totoro is one of the funniest things I've ever seen
September 5 at 2:18pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I liked "Howl's Moving Castle" and "Panyo" as well
September 5 at 2:18pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Interesting how the early Eastern Church celebrated the Feast of the Conception of Mary.
September 5 at 2:18pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Novellas > anime. Discuss.
September 5 at 2:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes Scott. Because we know all pregnancies last EXACTLY 280 days, right?
September 5 at 2:19pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Novellas need to come back... unless they never left and I'm betraying my own ignorance...
September 5 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley In fact, they last exctly 24,192,000 seconds.
September 5 at 2:21pm · Edited · Like
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Nina Rachele ^well, that's informative
September 5 at 2:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nonono 241920000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 units of Planck time
September 5 at 2:22pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think the length of the pregnancy may vary, but they all start at conception which is the very beginning of our formal unity. We are very small in the beginning.
September 5 at 2:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I like where Aristotle says that the form of a particular poem "advanced by slow degrees; each new element that showed itself was in turn developed. Having passed through many changes, it found its natural form, and there it stopped." I think art forms like the novella develop into their form. It's a great form.
September 5 at 2:26pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia so why celebrate on Dec. 8th? and Mary's nativity next Monday?
September 5 at 2:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dec. 8 is when Laura came into the Church at the Dominican House of Studies in DC. It's a great day. I think the early Christians did not have i-phones with calander apps, so it all got mixed up or the liturgical calendar is all up to the Wisdom of the Church.
September 5 at 2:29pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia but you can recognize that they are just days that have been picked
September 5 at 2:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I agree these dates have been picked.
September 5 at 2:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But I think it is good to have the Feast of the Immaculate Conception near the Nativity because it helps underscore who Mary is in relation to Her Son. Liturgy is poetical which enables you to compress time to better understand the event.
September 5 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia so when is a human zygote ensoulled?
September 5 at 2:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which would mean "conceived"
September 5 at 2:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which soul are you talking about?
September 5 at 2:36pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Beitia, you are quite correct. The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment happens, and it says this itself.
Here is what the Church says:
"Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable." - Donum vitae
In explaining the immaculate Conception, Alexander VII explained that it did not refer to the active conception. That was the heretical idea of the IC that was condemned by St. Bernard, and was the version people held when St. Thomas wrote. But nor does it refer to the passive conception of the body, but it refers to the conception of the person. Anything else is heretical. Whether the conception of the person and the meeting of ovum and sperm happen at the same time or 40 days apart, they are distinct in nature, and the conception of the person is AFTER the conception of sperm and ovum in the order of nature. Were it not, the IC would be untenable
September 5 at 2:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg And what time zone?
September 5 at 2:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What about identical twins?
September 5 at 2:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It happens at the same time. Conception is the first moment of being of the human person, the body-soul unity (so-called).
September 5 at 2:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg They're not so identical.
September 5 at 2:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Identical twins don't split until after conception.
September 5 at 2:38pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum states:
"The devotion to the most blessed Virgin Mary is indeed of long standing among the faithful of Christ who believe that her soul, from the first instant of its creation and infusion into her body, was preserved immune by a special grace and privilege of God from the stain of original sin, in view of the merits of her Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of our human race, and who, in this sense, esteem and solemnly celebrate the festivity of her conception; the number of these has increased ... so that ... now almost all Catholics embrace it. . . . (4) We renew the Constitutions and decrees published by Roman Pontiffs in favor of the opinion that asserts that the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary at its creation, and at its infusion into her body, was blessed by the grace of the Holy Spirit and was preserved from original sin."
The mistake is assuming "conception" both means the same thing now as then, and is univocal. It is not. How many Catholics understand the dogma the way proponents of the IC did in the 13th century? Referring to active conception, e.g.? They would be heretics
September 5 at 2:40pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley But there are two understandings of what happens there:
1) what comes before has a rational soul and when it divides to form a second human, God creates a new rational soul.
2) the rational soul is not infused until after twinning.
September 5 at 2:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin...
September 5 at 2:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Does the soul split or multiply?
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see how the rational soul can.
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill is there a common soul that precedes?
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Identical twins are almost like siamese twins, but their bodies have split completely. The bodies of identical twins split after conception. They are two soul at conception in two bodies, in an accidental formal unity.
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley We can see that the "material" souls do split and multiply in starfish and plants.
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Identical twins are conceived as two souls.
September 5 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, I don't think so, the preceding soul would just become the soul of one of the successors, if it is a rational soul.
September 5 at 2:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill so the second soul would come from the first
September 5 at 2:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, if by "conception" you are referring to fertilization, that's just empirically false.
September 5 at 2:43pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill ?
September 5 at 2:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Identical twins are conceived as two souls...
September 5 at 2:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill repeating doesn't do anything...
September 5 at 2:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, depends which scenario you're talking about: if you're talking about a pre-existing raitonal soul, the new one would have to be created _de novo_.
September 5 at 2:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is false that the soul of an identical twin is generated from an original soul of the other identical twin. That is false.
September 5 at 2:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley If there is no pre-existing rational soul, I think you'd say that that preexisting soul generates a like after division.
September 5 at 2:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, we're in agreement there.
September 5 at 2:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill so then if the identical twin is from a common fertilized egg, the fertilized egg is either two souls in one body or not yet ensouled
September 5 at 2:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Did anyone claim conception was fertilization or wasn't fertilization?
September 5 at 2:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Identical twins raise difficulties if the conception of the person is understood as being at the same time as active conception...indeed short of saying both souls are in the same body before it splits, you cannot hold this view.
If you hold it at the same time as passive generation, then you can see the twinning process as another act of generative conception.
Against Langley, I think it wrong to say even a plant soul divides as such. Rather the splitting, like in twinning, would constitute another act of generation (passive conception), sort of a latent result of active conception. The only difference is that purely natural principles cannot give rise to the human soul, but it is this conception, preceding ensoulment in nature if not in time, that is the explanation of the new person.
September 5 at 2:46pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley (so long as we are referring to the rational soul)
September 5 at 2:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, that does not follow.
September 5 at 2:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The soul is the formal cause which leads to a division of twins because there are two.
September 5 at 2:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley That can't be, Scott, two forms must inform numerically distinct matters.
September 5 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, before twinning, there must only be one soul.
September 5 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Identical triplets: three souls in one body (accidental formal unity comprised of three formal unities) divided by each soul as formal cause.
September 5 at 2:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley But what nature that soul has, is difficult to see.
September 5 at 2:48pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Impossible.
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I knew I could kick start this
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Wrong.
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Does not follow.
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am surprised you are jumping to false conclusions as if they are certainty. This is biased.
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Edward Langley, yes, referring to the rational soul. The question is "when" and if two rational souls are in one body or split, or if the rational souls follow after. If it is one rational soul, then "split" into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the other
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley It follows "as the night does day".
September 5 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what again is the false conclusion?
September 5 at 2:48pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Scott seems to want one fertilized egg to be two people
September 5 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg That one soul could lead to two souls. That identical twins were once just one soul. This is an unfounded claim.
September 5 at 2:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley A fertilized egg can only have one substantial form.
September 5 at 2:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So... how long can one thing be two?
September 5 at 2:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg There's no such thing as a "fertilized egg." That's de-huminizing.
September 5 at 2:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg One thing can be two for as long as you want to entertain dumb quetions.
September 5 at 2:51pm · Like
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Jeff Neill matter and form
September 5 at 2:51pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I entertain all your questions
September 5 at 2:51pm · Like
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Jeff Neill and I am entertained by them
September 5 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Matter and form at conception = human person
September 5 at 2:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg thanks
September 5 at 2:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg ok
September 5 at 2:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, "If it is one rational soul, then "split" into multiple rational souls is one said to be from the other."
That isn't true, BTW, the rational soul is a special creation by God, so, strictly speaking, it is not from anything preceding except God.
September 5 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, I did this, with the twin comment.
September 5 at 2:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff: identical twins are generated by two souls in what might appear to be one body... do you not think so?
September 5 at 2:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha you're just riffing on my IC claims
September 5 at 2:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think the IC thing was dying out.
September 5 at 2:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Langley, I have scott blocked...you may want to quote Donum vitae or another magisterium document that says the Church refrains from defining when ensoulment happens.
September 5 at 2:53pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I think this is only entertained because it is on that theme
September 5 at 2:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Edward, ok, then when?
September 5 at 2:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, I don't think that can be. Or, at least we have no empirical biological evidence to say that the embryo only "appears to have one body".
September 5 at 2:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg OK, I agree with Ed. That's Pope Ed speaking to me: identical twins is not a rational soul splitting
September 5 at 2:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, either one or two rational souls is directly created by God at the moment of twinning. Depends on what you think of what precedes twinning.
September 5 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott's two souls prior to twinning seems pretty ad hoc to me, but then so does most everything else said on the subject.
September 5 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The Church does not actually teach definitively when the ensoulment happens, and it says this itself.
Here is what the Church says:
"Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul; nevertheless, the conclusions of science regarding the human embryo provide a valuable indication for discerning by the use of reason a personal presence at the moment of this first appearance of a human life: how could a human individual not be a human person? The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion. This teaching has not been changed and is unchangeable." - Donum vitae
September 5 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill And the changing of ensouled to en-rational-souled is a change?
September 5 at 2:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, the view that there is no rational soul before twinning would just be Thomas's transitional form view of conception.
September 5 at 2:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (If this is an item for contention, is it possible for *new* dogma to arise from it? Are we creating theology?)
September 5 at 2:56pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram So, for the record, since this business began, I have flown to Italy, spent two weeks here, moved into an apartment, and taken a whole week of classes.
In that time, I think I have gotten over ten thousand notifications, because I was tagged in this monster originally and haven't blocked anyone, and for some insane reason haven't unfollowed the beast.
YOU ALL HAVE NO LIFE.
September 5 at 2:56pm · Unlike · 7
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Scott Weinberg Conception of identical twins is two souls animating one body -- or more likely two bodies joined in accidental formal unity -- and the souls generate the division of the body, like siamese twins only divided completely.
September 5 at 2:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I have a life, I'm just easily distracted from it.
September 5 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram I'm just waiting for Ed to start phoning it in and saying "yeah, you know, Gilson and Maritain might be right, or not. Whatever."
September 5 at 2:57pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram lolwut how are there 13,600 posts, don't you people ever get tired of typing and texting...?
September 5 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Identical twins is like TNET. It appears to be one material form, but it divides.
September 5 at 2:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia NO
September 5 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Tom, au contraire....I have travelled 1000 miles, went to a wedding, got some Cuban cigars, fixed my sister's computer, worked 60 hrs a week (now down to 36, but overnight) and have created a script to shrink TOPL down to a reasonable size....
All of which is just a distraction from my life which is TNET....
September 5 at 2:59pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg No
September 5 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill This is the first topic worth discussing on FB... I've been a member for 10 years and I have posted more here than anywhere, ever.
September 5 at 2:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But yes, identical twins are conceived at the first moment of existence with two human souls informing matter: two formal unities; then separated by their souls, their formal causes.
September 5 at 3:01pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Tom Sundaram-- i first came to this thread to post a similarly derisive comment. So watch yourself. You could be next.
September 5 at 3:00pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley But, according to the most certain teaching of Thomas Aquinas , number in forms derives from division of matter.
September 5 at 3:01pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Do I have two souls in me and I just haven't split yet?
September 5 at 3:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not for human persons though.
September 5 at 3:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg He had some errors about the relationship between the body and soul at conception,
September 5 at 3:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thomas argued that the soul was ensouled into matter long after fertilization.
September 5 at 3:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When?
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But we know our soul comes from God.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What doesn't take us away from TNET makes us stronger.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg And God can inform matter at conception.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, Scott, the Church has never defined that St. Thomas was in error.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The reason we think that is biological evidence.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg For the same reason, God did not breath life into the matter of a lower life form.
September 5 at 3:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So Scott, you are positing that two rational souls are in the same body in the same way?
September 5 at 3:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, they are not in the same body in the same way, and Thomas' "reason" contra the Immaculate Conception was wrong.
September 5 at 3:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's evidence, and evidence is not the stuff of belief.
September 5 at 3:05pm · Like
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Jeff Neill ...so in one body, they are both there
September 5 at 3:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe like a parasite.
September 5 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill is this why you are a faith before reason person? prefer to believe without thinking?
September 5 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, then Scott believes in the pre-existence of souls
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that's probably been condemned somewhere
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg read above. they are conceived together, two souls, distinctly separate in matter but virually united in matter.
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz?
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Heresy!
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Teaching 4 classes this semester at institutions 40 miles apart, plus multiple publications, consulting, and sundry other stuff - ref-ing my daughter's soccer games, etc.
Had multiple people over to dinner last night and awoke at 4:30am for my commute. So far today I've taught two classes, set three meetings, and wrote a memo summarizing a phone call yesterday.
You have no excuse Tom Sundaram.
The fallacy of the FB lurker has long since been debunked (accusing everyone of wasting time because they post instead of lurk with their time).
September 5 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Samantha: open Scott's mouth, put words into them.
September 5 at 3:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Matthew J. Peterson, I still have not forgiven you for abandoning the Foothill Cities Blog
September 5 at 3:08pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram The only reason I have been posting during the day is I have a data plan for my phone here in Rome - and unlike you gentlemen I have morning classes.
September 5 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The right question is how you have a life WITHOUT TNET.
TNET is what give us our power. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.
September 5 at 3:09pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, with identical twins, both souls come into existence at conception. How is this asserting the pre-existence of souls?
September 5 at 3:09pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And yes, I cannot believe how insane all you people are.
September 5 at 3:09pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Scott, conception and ensoulment are the same thing. But that is different from Biological conception
September 5 at 3:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, I did not mean to offend anybody by pointing out that Thomas's reasons against the Immaculate Conception were unfounded. I did not mean to start an argument.
September 5 at 3:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, conception and ensoulment are not the same thing. Ensoulment implies pre-existing matter.
September 5 at 3:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I gotta run, please try to not put words in the mouth of another formal unity. Thanks.
September 5 at 3:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe One of those two souls is superfluous to the matter, thus it isn't acting as a form of matter, thus it's just hanging out, pre-existing it's ensoulment into a different matter.
September 5 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I just think that seems like a necessary consequence of your view.
September 5 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Received some new books today (the ones on the right):
September 5 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I don't see that, Samantha, ensoulment is like God putting a soul in pre-existing matter, like pouring water into a glass. This seems like a silly view to me. I do not see that Thomas was not correct about this.
September 5 at 3:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, something like that has to happen, Scott, otherwise parents would be irrelevant.
September 5 at 3:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't get ensoulment, either, but your view seems to imply an even weirder kind of ensoulment, Scott
September 5 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not sure what you are saying, Ed.
September 5 at 3:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I rule out "ensoulment." I think you are not getting what I said above, Samantha.
September 5 at 3:17pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley The fact that the child's DNA is a mix of its parents's DNA implies that the matter in which the child's soul is received somehow preexists the coming-to-be of the child.
September 5 at 3:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think you are not getting the implications of what you said.
September 5 at 3:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Nope, the conception of identical twins does not involve or imply ensoulment or pre-existing matter that God pours two souls into.
September 5 at 3:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The conception of identical twins does not imply or involve one soul being ensouled, then dividing. In no way did I imply this. This is a smoke screen, sophistry.
September 5 at 3:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Then, I guess it's just superstition that we expect children to look like their parents.
September 5 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Your point is?
September 5 at 3:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley That what you said: "ensoulment is like God putting a soul in pre-existing matter, like pouring water into a glass. This seems like a silly view to me." is false.
September 5 at 3:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Identical twins come into being at the same time.
September 5 at 3:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley especially the "silly" part.
September 5 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Because God _does_ put a soul into matter that pre-exists in some way.
September 5 at 3:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I don't think it is possible to understand what you are saying.
September 5 at 3:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Nope.
September 5 at 3:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Conception is the coming into being of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal unity.
September 5 at 3:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is also true, in a certain respect.
September 5 at 3:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Hence, evolution involving God placing the soul of man into the pre-existing matter of a lower life form is hard to consider.
September 5 at 3:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, if preexisting matter was completely irrelevant, why does God create a person inside _this_ woman's womb rather than that one's?
September 5 at 3:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Conception is the coming into being of the human person, the simultaneous union of the formal and material causes of a person as a formal unity.
September 5 at 3:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not see how that follows as a relevant question.
September 5 at 3:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Identical twinning is the conception of two formal unities in one "body," as it were, but these bodies clearly become distinct through time.
September 5 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg If anything, the human soul in the mind of God precedes matter.
September 5 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^not relevant^
September 5 at 3:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Whatever you say, Samantha.
September 5 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Unless he wants to say that the mind of God informs matter.
September 5 at 3:27pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley (as a formal cause rather than as an efficient cause . . . )
September 5 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, how can there be two souls in one body?
September 5 at 3:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That God knew us before were were born is entirely germaine. He knows us as a soul in act and as a formal unity in potentia.
September 5 at 3:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Pre-existence of souls is indeed heresy
If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. - (2nd Council of Constantinople)
September 5 at 3:28pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Knew I could count on you
September 5 at 3:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How can two men be standing in one room?
September 5 at 3:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How can siamese twins have two distinct souls?
September 5 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Are you saying cases are the same?
September 5 at 3:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The "body" unity is virtual.
September 5 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What does that mean?
September 5 at 3:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Two persons -- two formal unities -- two body/soul composits -- two persons conceived as soul and body at conception -- reside in one "body" ... which then divides according to the formal principle of their personhood.
September 5 at 3:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg We do not know if the souls of identical twins both equally occupy all of their shared matter, or equal parts: they appear to be one, but they are really two. They are really two before they appear to be two. the thing that makes them two while they still look like one is their soul. Their souls were there at conception as was their matter.
September 5 at 3:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg their souls cause them to split into two distinct bodies.
September 5 at 3:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, you don't get to posit two body-soul composites and then say they exist in one body.
September 5 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley BTW, Scott, only a fool would call any of St. Thomas's positions "silly". They might be false, but not false in a silly way.
September 5 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. - (2nd Council of Constantinople)
September 5 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see what I mean, Samantha? You're just riffing off of me
September 5 at 3:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Thanks Mr. Kenz.
September 5 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, day late and a buck short
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe fine, but it was a good riff
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia like a Norwegian black metal guitarist
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, seems like you want to say that there are two bodies and two souls from the beginning, they just look like one embryo
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We should talk about what happens when one twin reabsorbs the other!!
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Ah, but Lendman probably was repeating it for Scott's sake
September 5 at 3:37pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^true
September 5 at 3:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hahahaha
September 5 at 3:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz For someone who whines that TACers do not study a specific number of dogmas, even just via responses, I find him woefully ignorant on doctrine.
September 5 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Cannibalistic twins?!
September 5 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it exists
September 5 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I know
September 5 at 3:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "fetal re absorption"
September 5 at 3:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, these difficulties are part of the reason the Church prudently does not define when "ensoulment" happens.
September 5 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The case of Christ was evidently miraculous.
September 5 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I'm not positing two body-soul composits in one body. But you do like to put words into others' mouths. LOL. And Thomas's view of ensoulment was ridiculous, as was Aristotle's view; and I do not believe you are an authority on who is a fool and what words I may use. Thank you.
Identical twins implies two persons from conception; hence two bodies, at least in potential which become visibly distinct over time.
St. Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception. His reason for opposing it was flawed and unfounded. This does not mean that he was not a great theologian. It just means that Dogmatic Theology is more important.
September 5 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman The case of the Virgin could have been as Christ's but it is not defined thus.
September 5 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Aut sicut abortivum absconditum non subsisterem, vel qui concepti non viderunt lucem.
September 5 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not sure what you are saying Daniel.
September 5 at 3:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am about 200 comments back.
September 5 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sorry.
September 5 at 3:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Trying to catch up.
September 5 at 3:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think I would conceded that the identical twin zygote is potentially 2 bodies. I would grant that with respect to any zygote actually.
September 5 at 3:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley "On which point the words of Blessed Urban V to the University of Toulouse are worthy of recall: "It is our will, which We hereby enjoin upon you, that ye follow the teaching of Blessed Thomas as the true and Catholic doctrine and that ye labor with all your force to profit by the same."(35) Innocent XII, followed the example of Urban in the case of the University of Louvain, in the letter in the form of a brief addressed to that university on February 6, 1694, and Benedict XIV in the letter in the form of a brief addressed on August 26, 1752, to the Dionysian College in Granada; while to these judgments of great Pontiffs on Thomas Aquinas comes the crowning testimony of Innocent VI: "His teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error."(36)" --- Leo XIII, Aeterni Patris
September 5 at 3:44pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Got it. If you can figure out how identical twins come into being, you will be ahead of us all. Samantha is mad at me because I described Thomas' view of ensoulment as silly.
September 5 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I saw that.
September 5 at 3:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the usual Thomistic accounts of twinning are kind of a dodge
September 5 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante or rather, neo-Thomistic (20th c)
September 5 at 3:44pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman It does seem to be a real difficulty, however, to say that there are two souls for one body. That would seem to violate the definition of the soul as forma corporis.
September 5 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz WRT Mary being conceived like Christ, Alexander VII was clear...IC means the conception of the person, i.e. ensoulment, not active or passive generation of the body. These must precede, in nature if not in time, conception of the person. And if you fail to keep that distinction, you fall into the heresy that St. Bernard and St. Thomas were rejecting (and yes 12th and 13th century versions of the IC were heretical)
As such, there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like Christ. The IC does not require it. It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies obviously. But in another sense, they must be distinct even materially in some way, even though they appear to be one body. I think this must be the cause, because they are twins from conception with two souls.
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley I dunno, twinning seems to be most satisfactorily explained by delayed ensoulment.
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz But 20th century Thomists do not hold delayed ensoulment
September 5 at 3:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Right, it is difficult to say there are two souls for one body. They are really two souls and two bodies, in one "body".
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz At least not usually
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante exactly
September 5 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^exactly
September 5 at 3:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hence the problem
September 5 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Twinning is explained away by delayed ensoulment. Not really explained.
September 5 at 3:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, even if there is a rational soul present, it has all the powers of the sensitive and vegetative souls and we see in animals and plants that such souls can produce a like via division.
All we'd have to say, is that when the person, the zygote, divides, it generates something with a human vegetative (+ possibly sensitive soul) for which God then creates a new rational soul.
September 5 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Delayed ensoulment just seems self-evident to me.
September 5 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, that solution seems at least as implausible as delayed ensoulment.
September 5 at 3:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley So we'd just say that delayed ensoulment is a special case of normal human generation.
September 5 at 3:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Two souls and two bodies in one apparent body is not a problem. The souls take care of everything. They divide and grow with the "same" DNA.
September 5 at 3:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman WRT Mary being conceived like Christ, Alexander VII was clear...IC means the conception of the person, i.e. ensoulment, not active or passive generation of the body. These must precede, in nature if not in time, conception of the person. And if you fail to keep that distinction, you fall into the heresy that St. Bernard and St. Thomas were rejecting (and yes 12th and 13th century versions of the IC were heretical)
As such, there is no reason to posit that she was conceived like Christ. The IC does not require it. It is fairly safe to assert that her physical conception and ensoulment was in the same manner as the rest of us
September 5 at 3:47pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The matter has to be suitable to the form ... there is no way that an embryo is suitable to a rational soul.
September 5 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz^
September 5 at 3:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley But we only have ad hoc evidence that it only appears like one body.
September 5 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Scott Weinberg^
September 5 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Daniel, at least is seems very possible that it is not suitable to a rational soul.
September 5 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Likely, even.^
September 5 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The problem is the two bodies part where there is one cell.
September 5 at 3:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I find it more a more satisfying explanation. It is far more mysterious and beautiful. It adheres to the fine notion that conception is the beginning.
September 5 at 3:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman 2 potential bodies, yes. But that means that they aren't.
September 5 at 3:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Typically I am compelled by arguments from aesthetics. In this case, I fear to be so hasty.
September 5 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It is no problem. Zoom in closer. Look at the DNA. It splits into two persons.
September 5 at 3:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For the very plausible reason that science might show something else.
September 5 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I do not think we will prove this. If we try, no doubt we will look silly.
September 5 at 3:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What if science creates identical human twins?
September 5 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Conception precedes DNA, so why are you looking at one cell?
September 5 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Conception precedes DNA? what does that even mean
September 5 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Do you mean distinct DNA?
September 5 at 3:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It means that Conception comes before a human genome is present in a person. It is pre-cellular. The splitting of the first DNA strand, and the splitting of the first cell, could be the first division of bodies of "body" informed with two souls. It is something we will never be able to see or prove with science.
September 5 at 3:55pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia what the hell do you mean by "conception" then?
September 5 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Well that's a tricky kind of argument to refute, huh?
September 5 at 3:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Even if one takes my proposed solution, that the twinning is another passive conception, i.e. a new generation , if the original zygote had a rational soul, it would seem that brother is begetting brother...and well a lot of issues arise.
Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing process, and it seems that, insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some time, that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single point, fertilization, but as something that only begins there. "Ensoulment" would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with it, as being its term. The zygote, still capable of twinning, then would still be undergoing conception, and the generative act would still be ongoing, and hence retain the potential for multiple persons.
September 5 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I though he was going to go with "notionally precedes" or something
September 5 at 3:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not really (to refute), you can never prove the Immaculate Conception by scientific observation either.
September 5 at 3:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought we were talking about twinning?
September 5 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I thought conception was distinct from fertilization (even if they could happen simultaneously)
September 5 at 3:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Conception is the first moment of material/spiritual being.
September 5 at 3:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which is not necessarily the same as fertilization.
September 5 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz once said this,
Even if one takes my proposed solution, that the twinning is another passive conception, i.e. a new generation , if the original zygote had a rational soul, it would seem that brother is begetting brother...and well a lot of issues arise.
Now Augustine uses the term conception as an ongoing process, and it seems that, insofar as Aquinas views the active power of the seed as continuing for some time, that we may be best at seeing passive conception as something that does not happen at a single point, fertilization, but as something that only begins there. "Ensoulment" would occur as a result of this conception and in a certain sense with it, as being its term. The zygote, still capable of twinning, then would still be undergoing conception, and the generative act would still be ongoing, and hence retain the potential for multiple persons.
September 5 at 3:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, fertilization is a biological definition.
September 5 at 3:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Cool.
September 5 at 3:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so they could be 2 events in time?
September 5 at 3:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The zygote is not capable of twinning. Only two souls which appear to be one are capable of twinning. But they are already twins. Twinning is a misnomer.
September 5 at 3:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And this is the part where it become beautiful and mysterious.
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The zygote is not a potential multi-human.
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But what what if scientists create a twin?
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What if they clone a human?
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Will the clone have a soul?
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz What about a child with three parents?
September 5 at 4:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It seems to me the obvious answer is, "
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you saying that human scientists can take a "zygote" and split the stem cells and form an identical twin -- with a distinct human soul?
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you saying that human scientists can take a "zygote" and split the stem cells and form an identical twin -- with a distinct human soul?
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman They can do crazy things.
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But a three parent child, will he have one and a half souls?
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There are babies with three parents
September 5 at 4:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby
Three-parent baby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Three-parent babies are human offspring with three genetic parents, created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future baby's mitochondrial DNA comes from a third party.[1][2][3] The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy an…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 5 at 4:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Scientists can't make souls. Human souls do not come from the potency of matter.
September 5 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman It would seem that God provides a soul whenever there is proportionate matter.
September 5 at 4:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not so. He provides them together.
September 5 at 4:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We do not create the soul, only the conditions.
September 5 at 4:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not even then.
September 5 at 4:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And of course God is not compelled to act, but does so naturally, and normally.
September 5 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg "God provides a soul whenever there is proportionate matter" is false.
September 5 at 4:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I understand the desire to want to hold your position, but the fact is, scientists are showing this to be the case.
September 5 at 4:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You cannot tack one half of a formal unity onto the other and have a formal unity. They must come into existence together.
September 5 at 4:05pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict AND IN THIS CORNER...
September 5 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And scientists are in no way showing they can induce a human soul from the potency of matter.
September 5 at 4:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What happens when they clone someone?
September 5 at 4:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What happens when the baby has three parents?
September 5 at 4:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby
Three-parent baby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Three-parent babies are human offspring with three genetic parents, created through a specialized form of In vitro fertilisation in which the future baby's mitochondrial DNA comes from a third party.[1][2][3] The procedure is intended to prevent mitochondrial diseases including muscular dystrophy an…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 5 at 4:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Things just don't seem to work the way you want them to Scott.
September 5 at 4:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Human cloning is not a reality. I know modern science can be confusing, but don't let things like "three parent" children confuse you. Three parent children is like organ transplants: borrowed matter. Ethical stem cell treatment involves cells generated by other people. It does not mean if I am injected with stem cell treatments that I become part of that stem cell donor's family.
September 5 at 4:09pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, you should lose the presumption. Thanks.
September 5 at 4:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:09pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I've found a third way
http://i.kinja-img.com/.../s--yC.../shjmbv2z2hvfb3k28ncd.jpg
I.KINJA-IMG.COM
September 5 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Your statement that "Things just don't seem to work the way you want them to Scott" is a false presumption. A shallow rhetorical ploy. Don't let modern science confuse you.
September 5 at 4:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "Yes, the zygote is potentially two distinct bodies obviously. But in another sense, they must be distinct even materially in some way, even though they appear to be one body. "
September 5 at 4:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I would like to point out that ^^ Scott switched to the position I suggested he actually espoused
September 5 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Who's putting words in your mouth now, sir??
September 5 at 4:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../New-spectre-cloned-babies...
New spectre of cloned babies: Scientists create embryos in lab that 'could grow to...
DAILYMAIL.CO.UK
September 5 at 4:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No I did not, Samantha. You seem more intent on not being wrong or not losing, than being true. What I said was, in one sense they are one, in another they are two. This is not a contradiction.
September 5 at 4:13pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman My point, at that time, was to show that modern science has pretty well 'demonstrated' that when the material conditions are provided, so is the soul. It is not as though the soul come through the stem cells.
September 5 at 4:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe You said they appear to be one, but are materially two
September 5 at 4:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Formally, they can be really distinct; materially, they can appear to be one.
September 5 at 4:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wasn't trying to be presumptuous, just trying to read the facts.
September 5 at 4:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And the fact is that human cloning is not real and "three parents" is a myth.
September 5 at 4:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Not to mention those experiments done by Driesch (?) where they would divide sea-urchin zygotes in half and each half would develop into complete sea urchins.
September 5 at 4:16pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Are they formally distinct or materially distinct? You're being confusing
September 5 at 4:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley I wonder if a similar experiment works in higher animals.
September 5 at 4:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Fortunately ethical restrictions have prevented such experiments.
September 5 at 4:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Human generation is unique in nature, but plant generation can produce a kind of twin through the potency of matter. The matter is one in form but two in potency. Because the formal cause in man is not induced through matter, I think it can seem implicitely confusing, or mysterious.
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think, however, it would be rash to dismiss it as an impossibility.
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Daniel "that when the material conditions are provided, so is the soul" so you're proposing a zygote does not have sufficient material conditions? Just trying to be clear about your position without reading everything lol
September 5 at 4:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel, there would be nothing objectionable in experimenting on dogs, etc.
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Cloning animals is possible, because the animal soul may be induced from a material cause.
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley 1. Artificial Embryo Twinning
Artificial embryo twinning is a relatively low-tech way to make clones. As the name suggests, this technique mimics the natural process that creates identical twins.
In nature, twins form very early in development when the embryo splits in two. Twinning happens in the first days after egg and sperm join, while the embryo is made of just a small number of unspecialized cells. Each half of the embryo continues dividing on its own, ultimately developing into separate, complete individuals. Since they developed from the same fertilized egg, the resulting individuals are genetically identical.
Artificial embryo twinning uses the same approach, but it is carried out in a Petri dish instead of inside the mother. A very early embryo is separated into individual cells, which are allowed to divide and develop for a short time in the Petri dish. The embryos are then placed into a surrogate mother, where they finish developing. Again, since all the embryos came from the same fertilized egg, they are genetically identical.
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/con.../cloning/whatiscloning/
September 5 at 4:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw, I think that that is at least a reasonable possibility.
September 5 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Identitcal twins are not human clones. Different process.
September 5 at 4:19pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Thanks. Also, are some peeps really saying there are no such things as clones??
September 5 at 4:20pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley At least in principle, twins should be genetically identical.
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Pop science + liberal arts = OMG!
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Genetically identical == clone.
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Nope
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm actually quoting real science, you know from a real university lab.
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No, Adrw.
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's pop science.
September 5 at 4:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think Scott is saying that he thinks that human clones do not exist.
September 5 at 4:21pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe and are impossible
September 5 at 4:21pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Cloning is the artificial generation of a genetically identical human. The definition you just threw down, Ed, means that identical twins are clones.
September 5 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley is holding that artificial cloning is just artificially caused twinning.
September 5 at 4:22pm · Unlike · 1
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Adrw Lng Right I meant Scott. The lulz he's provided...
September 5 at 4:22pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley At least in certain circumstances.
September 5 at 4:22pm · Like
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Joel HF Genetically, aren't they?
September 5 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg When you say "...I think Scott is saying..." that really is almost the weakest argument there is.
September 5 at 4:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was just trying to catch Adrw up, Scott.
September 5 at 4:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley From the article I linked, it looks like there are two different methods used in cloning experiments: "Artificial Embryo Twinning" and "Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer"
September 5 at 4:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Was I wrong?
September 5 at 4:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Samantha is saying that human twins are caused materially.
September 5 at 4:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley In the former, they literally take a slightly developed embryo, divide it into cells and reimplant the cells which then develop into complete animals.
September 5 at 4:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Daniel is saying that it really is possible for someone to have three parents.
September 5 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg, I won't say "I think Scott is saying" because I have no clue what position (positions) you hold.
September 5 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yep!
September 5 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley In the latter, they take the nucleus from an adult cell and implant it into an egg, which then develops like an embryo.
September 5 at 4:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Edward Langley is saying that human cloning is no different than identical twins.
September 5 at 4:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Daniel is saying that "twinning" happens after Conception.
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, I think Adrw had already caught that, Scott.
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman True.
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, I think Adrw had already caught that, Scott.
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Caught up ✅
September 5 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman When I write, "I think..." No disparaging sentiment is intended.
September 5 at 4:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, above you claimed that Edward Langley had fallen victim to pop science. That is certainly possible. DO you have any articles that you can link that would argue your case?
September 5 at 4:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.
September 5 at 4:27pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I think Samantha is saying that it's just impossible for two formal unities to exist within another kind of material unity.
September 5 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (I do realize that the genome "develops" after conception because of various induced mutations, but that would happen to clones as well.)
September 5 at 4:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh, you missed it Scott.
September 5 at 4:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw is all caught up!
September 5 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Oh, I feel so deprived Daniel.
September 5 at 4:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This seems reasonable: If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.
September 5 at 4:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Read this, Scott, it looks to me that one form of cloning is just doing artificially what people do naturally: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/con.../cloning/whatiscloning/
September 5 at 4:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Daniel is saying she does not mean to be disparaging, she just thinks that suggesting thoughts for another is a legitimate form of discussion or argument.
September 5 at 4:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am still not sure why you are offended by my writing, "I think..." in order to summarize a position. I was actually trying to be respectful and not put words in your mouth.
September 5 at 4:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, by the way, I hold with Samantha that two forms must correspond to two bodies.
September 5 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman you are being trolled
September 5 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think that thing that Scott thinks I think is what I think.
September 5 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Katie Duda Have we seen this?
http://www.theonion.com/.../guy-in-philosophy-class.../
Guy In Philosophy Class Needs To Shut The Fuck Up
HANOVER, NH—Darrin Floen is unfamiliar with John...
THEONION.COM
September 5 at 4:30pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (and with most of the other people in this thread)
September 5 at 4:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We have, Katie. Still relevant, though
September 5 at 4:31pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Or you could take it as an opportunity to see where your opponent has misunderstood your position, and charitably seek to further explain yourself.
September 5 at 4:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, pro-cloning ethicists and eugenicists say that identical twins are the same thing as clones to support the unethical bias.
September 5 at 4:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley I wonder if that's how the other graduate students view me, Katie.
September 5 at 4:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley The deduction doesn't follow, Scott.
September 5 at 4:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?
September 5 at 4:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just because something happens by nature does not imply that it can legitimately be done by art: see IVF, for example.
September 5 at 4:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger or cloning seems to be artificial twinning
September 5 at 4:32pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel is saying that it's scientifically and metaphysically possible to have three parents, just like pop science is claiming.
September 5 at 4:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If all one means by "clone" is "genetically identical" or "very similar", then twinning just is natural cloning.
September 5 at 4:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?
September 5 at 4:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am one of the few people left, here, that gives your positions serious consideration Scott. Maybe you shouldn't burn this bridge.
September 5 at 4:34pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Daniel is saying it is impossible to verify that two human souls exist in a microscopic identitcal twin because the Internet does not say so.
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, burning his boats led Cortes to victory.
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel just threatened me.
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is okay to be wrong, Scott.
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley ^Daniel Lendman
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is okay to be sad.
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?
September 5 at 4:35pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram I do believe Daniel just gave Scott quite the reality check, and Scott found reality threatening.
September 5 at 4:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny: by overthrowing the Aztec civlization, Cortes freed the surrounding tribes from oppression: and look how we now treat him.
September 5 at 4:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Daniel, it is okay to be wrong sometimes, and sad sometimes, but I think you are very weird.
September 5 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Article? It's called magesterium, Daniel Lendman.
September 5 at 4:37pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley And add to that, the the Spanish (+ Portugese) ruled portions of the Americas are the only ones where the natives managed to keep their original lands, and I think you learn something about the so-called "Black Legend"
September 5 at 4:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is there an article you can link, Scott that would explain your position?
September 5 at 4:37pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman
September 5 at 4:37pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Freed the surrounding tribes from oppression??
September 5 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated materially, Daniel? I am just stating the obvious, you are denying it. The burden is on you, not me.
September 5 at 4:38pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That might be a colored view,
September 5 at 4:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, the Aztecs would raid them for human sacrifices.
September 5 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Right, and the Spaniards were lovely, enlightened rulers
September 5 at 4:39pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, the burden is on you, not me. Is there a scientific journal you can link to that shows that the souls of identical twins may be generated materially?
September 5 at 4:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley No one is saying that the souls of identical twins were generated materially.
September 5 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti So, I think we've established the deficiencies of the Christendom biology program.
September 5 at 4:39pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley At least the Spaniards didn't force the natives into reservations.
September 5 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's true, there are lots of ways to be horrible.
September 5 at 4:39pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And they actually educated them and taught them more advanced agricultural practices in their misisons.
September 5 at 4:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, you suggested (above) that a child may have three parents. Is there a scientific journal you can link to that proves this, Daniel? The burden is on you.
September 5 at 4:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel?
September 5 at 4:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel?
September 5 at 4:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley (not denying that the Spaniards had their problems, but they seem to have been better colonizers than the English)
September 5 at 4:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, that would be a misunderstanding of my position. My position is that humans create the material preconditions for a soul.
September 5 at 4:40pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Can you link to an article that proves or supports that, Daniel? The burden is on you.
September 5 at 4:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman More or less:
http://www.npr.org/.../one-baby-three-parents-scientists...
1 Baby, 3 Parents: Scientists Say Due Date Is In Two Years
A medical procedure uses material from three people to...
NPR.ORG|BY BILL CHAPPELL
September 5 at 4:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, but "freed the surrounding tribes from oppression?"
September 5 at 4:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's your proof? You guys suck.
September 5 at 4:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think you are right, Scott. The burden was on me.
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman On cigars.
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yes, being forced to supply human sacrifices seems to be a pretty severe form of oppression.
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Does npr offend?
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think you are a creep.
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think we all need to slow down.
September 5 at 4:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe so is forced labor and racially based subjugation.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because it is very unclear why you are so hostile.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I still think you are a big creep.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3LxyiW7-o8
Built To Spill - Cortez The Killer
YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And angry.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Now it is awkward for everyone.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger STOP the threats already. This is a philosophy thread. None of that empirical stuff.
September 5 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You guys just suck.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Demostrably.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What the heck?
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Pathetic.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Arrogant.
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 5 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Joel HF I smell the return of ... the Peregrine!
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Samantha, but the Aztecs imposed that on the surrounding tribes as well.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was really trying to engage, Scott.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Stuck on "science." Head-strong, self-appointed arbitors of truth.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Really?
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's just that the Aztecs divided the races differently.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, probably not helpful.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So what? The Spaniard didn't liberate anyone from anything!
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
September 5 at 4:44pm · Like
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Pater Edmund So I just finished a big youth prayer meeting thing, so I'm still up at this ungodly hour and can enjoy watching The Neverending Thread unravel a little.
September 5 at 4:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You don't liberate a slave by making him your slightly better treated slave
September 5 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley That's just bias.
September 5 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I was just trying to follow the arguments.
September 5 at 4:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What's bias?
September 5 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Good work everyone. Have I mentioned that Jane Austen is the greatest English Language prose fiction writer by far?
September 5 at 4:46pm · Unlike · 6
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Samantha Cohoe God bless you Pater Edmund
September 5 at 4:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Going from "offered as human sacrifices + forced labor and racially based subjugation" -> "forced labor and racially based subjugation" is still a step up and being freed from oppresion.
September 5 at 4:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Can we talk about Iran on here?
September 5 at 4:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, Pater Edmund, let's talk Iran!
September 5 at 4:46pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Yes, Iran!
September 5 at 4:46pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, my guess is, the Colonial mexicans (for lack of a better term) really imposed something closer to a feudal system than outright slavery in Mexico.
September 5 at 4:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Pater, you have.
September 5 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Oh, and natural slaves exist. Let's make this JUICY.
September 5 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg You proud TAC alum are just mad because Thomas is not as critical as the Churches Dogmatic Theology, and you don't really focus on that.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Tom, that's irrelevant to the question because any slavery in Mexico was just slavery by law.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Iran is a horrible abuser of human rights!
September 5 at 4:48pm · Unlike · 2
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Tom Sundaram AND Aristotle was right all along because projectile motion DOES require a continuous (literally touching) actuality - it just was the physical entity we now call "space-time" instead of air.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Iran is not a person.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley As has been pointed out before, Scott, you're position isn't dogmatically taught.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty to God unto the pulling down of fortifications, destroying counsels,
And every height that exhalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ;
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF If one were a Catholic integralist, or monarchist, one would condemn the false theocracy that was Iran, yes?
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Tom, I warned you.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Scott: I know a person named Iran, so nyah.
September 5 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I'll be honest. I have no idea whether "Scott," if that is his real name, is serious. NO IDEA!!!!
September 5 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Although, people under ISIS might be better off if Iran were to take over the region.
September 5 at 4:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I never said it was, Ed. I said Thomas' basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was unfounded. His rejection of the Immaculate Conception was wrong and unfounded.
September 5 at 4:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, Edward, if we're making guesses, then my guess is that you're wrong.
September 5 at 4:49pm · Like
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Joel HF They would be freed by Iran? Like the Spaniards freed the Indians!
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "In the encomienda, the Spanish crown granted a person a specified number of natives of a specific community, with the indigenous leaders in charge of mobilizing the assessed tribute and labor. In turn, encomenderos were to take responsibility for their Indian charges, in particular the instruction of the Indians in the Christian faith. The receiver of the grant was to protect the natives from warring tribes and to instruct them in the Spanish language. In return they could extract tribute from the natives in the form of labor, gold, or other products.[1] In the first decade of Spanish presence in the Caribbean, Spaniards divided up Indians who were worked relentlessly. With the ouster of Christopher Columbus, the Spanish crown sent a royal governor, Fray Nicolas de Ovando, who established the formal encomienda system.[2] In practice, the difference between encomienda and slavery could be minimal.[1] Many natives were forced to do hard labor and subjected to extreme punishment and death if they resisted.[1] Queen Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous "free vassals of the crown." [3] Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family units, but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their families, homes, and land.[4]"
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Hey, I don't have to PARTICIPATE. I just have to be the Bic to this absurd trifecta joint of nerdiness.
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That looks like feudalism to me.
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda
Encomienda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The encomienda (Spanish pronunciation: [eŋkoˈmjenda])...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like · Remove Preview
Joel HF Cortez came dancin' across the water
September 5 at 4:50pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Obviously I think that Islam is not the true religion, so of course I wish that Iran was Christian.
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF with his galleons and his guns
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I don't deny, that in practice, parts of the Spanish colonies might have been worse off under the Spanish than under the Aztecs.
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram and when he spun around he discovered the otter
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Pater Edmund But that being said, I prefer Muslims who actually believe in Islam to so-called "moderate" Muslims.
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I don't mean to make generalizations, but the way TAC alum argue is to put words into the mouth of others, or attack them like a street gang. It's really flawed and you should take a look at this.
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Can anyone tell me what I did that was offensive?
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Pater Edmund How can one be moderate about the highest good?
September 5 at 4:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, don't worry about it.
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I was desperately trying not to put words in your mouth, Scott.
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Here comes the part when Scott tells US that OUR rhetoric is flawed.
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "Moderate" muslims just deny the parts of their religion that are obviously horrible
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like
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Joel HF By the way, did you guys see that the SSPX just celebrated mass in St. Peters?
September 5 at 4:52pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley But it seems like the Crown of Spain did its best to ensure that the indigenous people were treated well: "Queen Isabella of Castile had forbidden Indian slavery and deemed the indigenous "free vassals of the crown." [3] Slavery was often characterized by the geographical displacement of those enslaved and the breakup of communities and family units, but the encomienda in Mexico functioned to rule these free vassals of the crown via existing community hierarchies with the indigenous not forced permanently from their families, homes, and land.[4]"
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg "It's okay to be wrong?" ... "It's ok to be sad..." What X is saying is this... [then mistate his position.] You think that's all cool and straight up, Daniel?
September 5 at 4:52pm · Like
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Pater Edmund « For is it not one's duty, instead of beginning with criticism, to throw oneself generously into that form of religion which is providentially put before one? Is it right, or is it wrong, to begin with private judgment? May we not, on the other hand, look for a blessing through obedience even to an erroneous system, and a guidance even by means of it out of it? Were those who were strict and conscientious in their Judaism, or those who were lukewarm and sceptical, more likely to be led into Christianity, when Christ came? Yet in proportion to their previous zeal, would be their appearance of inconsistency. Certainly, I have always contended that obedience even to an erring conscience was the way to gain light, and that it mattered not where a man began, so that he began on what came to hand, and in faith; and that anything might become a divine method of Truth; that to the pure all things are pure, and have a self-correcting virtue and a power of germinating. And though I have no right at all to assume that this mercy is granted to me, yet the fact, that a person in my situation may have it granted to him, seems to me to remove the perplexity which my change of opinion may occasion.»
September 5 at 4:53pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti joel, how did that go down? What does it mean?
September 5 at 4:53pm · Like
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Joel HF I think the Spaniards probably did lots of things that were bad by their own standards, and certainly by modern standards. I think most of the opprobrium leveled at them is whig history, since *obviously* they had to be much worse than the English, right? Right?
September 5 at 4:53pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley The difference between you and us, Scott, is that we generally back up our positions with credible documentation and arguments. You seem satisfied with bare assertion.
September 5 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The "It's okay to be wrong?" ... "It's ok to be sad." was my counter trolling,
September 5 at 4:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Tom, the rhetorical and diplomatic skills of TAC graduates are reputably deplorable.
September 5 at 4:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's a ridiculous assertion on its face Ed.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I did not willingly mis-state your position..
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In all sincerity.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley There you go, Scott, proving my claim.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We all do plenty of asserting.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What is counter trolling? Suffice it to say, that was not straight-forward?
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Joel, tI don't know if they were worse that the English, but they were certainly different from them.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe All I'm saying is that they didn't "liberate" nobody
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, you just proved mine, AGAIN, Ed.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That part wasn't.
September 5 at 4:54pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Presented without comment: http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/.../prof_results...
Front Royal Antisocial Personality Therapist - Antisocial Personality Therapist Front...
THERAPISTS.PSYCHOLOGYTODAY.COM
September 5 at 4:55pm · Like
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Joel HF They got permission, and celebrated mass in honor of St. Pius X's feast day. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../sspx-priest...
RORATE CÆLI: SSPX Priest Celebrates Mass in Saint Peter's Basilica
RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 5 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think it is helpful to recognize that often there are many people aligned against scott's position.
September 5 at 4:55pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is hard to argue coherently against a crowd.
September 5 at 4:55pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg I'm just saying, St. Thomas's basis for rejecting the Immaculate Conception was unfounded. His position was wrong. Agree?
September 5 at 4:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Which is why I was trying to restate your position Scott.
September 5 at 4:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger From Scott's perspective, it easily seems like ganging up. Ensoulment is puzzling. Kind of like how did God create the foundation of the world. And cloners are playing God it seems.
September 5 at 4:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, what if the religious tradition you were raised in is based on idol/demon worship, like Hinduism?
September 5 at 4:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You were misrepresenting my position Daniel.
September 5 at 4:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unintentionally.
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Samantha Cohoe Wouldn't it be better not to throw oneself into that religioun generously?
September 5 at 4:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger beat me DL
September 5 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Gotta run, you dear, sweet people. God bless.
September 5 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott--if Daniel was doing that, he certainly didn't mean to. I think your response should be to show him what your position really is, instead of flying into a trollish rage.
September 5 at 4:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott Weinberg, he was wrong about the IC, but I don't see that he was wrong about the genesis of a person.
September 5 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, I'm not sure exactly how wrong he was about the IC.
September 5 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Who is the he, there?
September 5 at 4:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Come on guys, are we really lecturing Peregrott on manners? Have we learned nothing?
September 5 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley because to know that, you'd have to know what his contemporaries meant by "immaculate conception".
September 5 at 4:58pm · Like
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Pater Edmund There is an Indian tribe in Mexico that has a legend according to which after the Fall of the first man and woman the tree turned into a pine tree, the fruit into a pine cone, and the snake...into a Spaniard.
September 5 at 4:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Joel, Thomas Aquinas.
September 5 at 4:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley Looks like we've roped Mr. Susanka into TNET.
September 5 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ah. I'm going to keep banging the drum of, it isn't all that clear that Thomas does, in fact, ultimately reject the IC. Certainly his biology doesn't compel one to reject the IC.
September 5 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Good Q about idolatry Samantha.
September 5 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Whoops.
September 5 at 5:00pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I wish this conversation would turn to human chimerism.
September 5 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Certainly Islam is an improvement over the fire-worshipers of ancient Persia.
September 5 at 5:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I think it is okay and reasonable to suggest that Thomas might also have been wrong about the genesis of the human person. He may have neen right, but it is also reasonable to hold that Conception may involve the simultaneous coming into being of matter and spirit. That's all I was saying. I think the reaction/response of the TAC "gang" is demonstrative. Gotta run. Nice chatting with you.
September 5 at 5:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Furthermore, the people he was most directly arguing against in the Summa (if what I read is correct) DID have a heretical conception of what the IC was.
September 5 at 5:01pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Sometimes I feel like there was a whole conversation I missed in the conversation we were having.
September 5 at 5:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Very often Scotts summary seems so very different from they way I recollect things.
September 5 at 5:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's hard to argue coherently if you're Scott
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Samantha Cohoe I think you have to believe that significant knowledge of the true God can be had through Islam to admire Islamic "fundamentalists"
September 5 at 5:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael that's not nice.
September 5 at 5:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And also that the false things taught about him don't outweigh the true.
September 5 at 5:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley "We may formulate the question discussed by them in two propositions, both of which are against the sense of the dogma of 1854:
the sanctification of Mary took place before the infusion of the soul into the flesh, so that the immunity of the soul was a consequence of the sanctification of the flesh and there was no liability on the part of the soul to contract original sin. This would approach the opinion of the Damascene concerning the holiness of the active conception.
The sanctification took place after the infusion of the soul by redemption from the servitude of sin, into which the soul had been drawn by its union with the unsanctified flesh. This form of the thesis excluded an immaculate conception.
The theologians forgot that between sanctification before infusion, and sanctification after infusion, there was a medium: sanctification of the soul at the moment of its infusion. To them the idea seemed strange that what was subsequent in the order of nature could be simultaneous in point of time. Speculatively taken, the soul must be created before it can be infused and sanctified but in reality, the soul is created and sanctified at the very moment of its infusion into the body. Their principal difficulty was the declaration of St. Paul (Romans 5:12) that all men have sinned in Adam. The purpose of this Pauline declaration, however, is to insist on the need which all men have of redemption by Christ. Our Lady was no exception to this rule. A second difficulty was the silence of the earlier Fathers. But the divines of those times were distinguished not so much for their knowledge of the Fathers or of history, as for their exercise of the power of reasoning. They read the Western Fathers more than those of the Eastern Church, who exhibit in far greater completeness the tradition of the Immaculate Conception. And many works of the Fathers which had then been lost sight of have since been brought to light."
September 5 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So is that what you think, Pater Edmund?
September 5 at 5:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary 'in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt…
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 5 at 5:03pm · Like · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia and Samantha, the Catholic priests in the Americas defended the natives against the Europeans.
How many English/native mixes do you find? Where are the NE US "mexicans"
September 5 at 5:04pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, the U.S. was a lot worse to the Natives.
September 5 at 5:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't claim the English were better!
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Daniel Lendman But it never goes well, when stone-age encounters modern-age.
September 5 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Good!
September 5 at 5:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We can all still hate the English.
September 5 at 5:05pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley By "liberation" all I meant that going from Aztecs -> Spaniards was not like going from "Chinese Landlords" -> "Maoists" but more like going from "English Colony" -> "Slave-permitting US"
September 5 at 5:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not the one advancing crazy claims about Old Worlders liberating New Worlders!
September 5 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman By liberation what Edward mean was a rather bombastic rhetorical flare that he does not fully believe.
September 5 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Just retract the "liberate" comment, Edward. Then we're all good here.
September 5 at 5:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But it probably helped drive away a troll.
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Joel HF I don't know their political theory, but from what I've read Iran's theory sounds like a religious version of Hobbes' leviathan.
September 5 at 5:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's a historical fact, that Cortes's expedition liberated the surrounding tribes. Now, perhaps the succeeding Spanish government oppressed them again, but that was not Cortes's expedition and, for all I know, not the way Cortes intended his conquest to turn out.
September 5 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You don't liberate a slave by making him a different kind of slave!
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Samantha Cohoe Cortes immediately set up shop as overlord
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Edward Langley A hierarchical society =/= slavery.
September 5 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (unless you're Rousseau)
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Daniel Lendman I should come by and liberate your alcohol collection, Edward.
September 5 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe pleeeeeease.
September 5 at 5:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley I see evidence that the Spanish set up a feudal society in Mexico and that (as often happens in feudal societies) individual officials oppressed the Indians.
September 5 at 5:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe encomienda was distinct from slavery in theory but not in fact
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Samantha Cohoe it was inherently oppressive because the Indians had few rights, and none that were consistently enforced
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Edward Langley That's like saying "crony capitalism" is distinct from slavery in theory but not in fact.
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Samantha Cohoe no it is NOT
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Edward Langley They also didn't have twitter to inform the Queen of their plight immediately.
September 5 at 5:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda hard to have a consistent domestic policy if message transport involves a month round-trip.
September 5 at 5:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley (or more)
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not attacking your precious Queen.
September 5 at 5:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe She probably meant well
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund left again already. sigh.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha it was a bit more complicated than that in Mexico and the New World generally
September 5 at 5:12pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe more complicated than what?
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Pater Edmund No, I'm still here. I don't know about false things outweighing the true. I have to look into it more. But they do say a lot of true things.
September 5 at 5:13pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante than you're making it out to be
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Edward Langley The feudal system in Europe wasn't a form of slavery either: but there were plenty of rulers who abused their authority (King John in England, for example)
September 5 at 5:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante re the status of the natives
September 5 at 5:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, the natives had lots of rights under the Spaniards that were consistently enforced?
September 5 at 5:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley But only an Enlightenment philosopher would call the European serfs "slaves"
September 5 at 5:15pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley My point is that your criticisms apply to feudal systems generally.
September 5 at 5:14pm · Like
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Pater Edmund That God is compassionate and merciful, the Creator of all things, the guide and lawgiver of mankind, who sits enthroned above the shifts of time, who changing all things remains Himself unchanged.
September 5 at 6:49pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF JA Escalante ensoulment is a difficulty for Thomism. Is there a theory for which it isn't?
September 5 at 5:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm making a particular historical point, Edward, not a broad theoretical claim
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Jehoshaphat Escalante they had rights as subjects of the Crown which were enforced with increasing consistency
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it varied by regions and period, but in general it was a movement toward greater consistency; at some points the criollos were actually angry that the Crown was doing so much to enforce the rights of the new subjects
September 5 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And my historical point was that the kinds of abuses you found in the Spanish colonies are the kinds of abuses one finds in feudal societies generally.
September 5 at 5:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley And are consistent with a "liberation" narrative.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but generally I prefer to agree with Samantha so I'll leave it at that
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Edward Langley Heck, you found similar abuses in the American south re. Catholics.
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Samantha Cohoe Except feudal European societies weren't based on a conquering race subjugating original inhabitants
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Samantha Cohoe which is a pretty huge difference
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Edward Langley Tell that to the Basques.
September 5 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Or the Scots, or the Irish.
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Edward Langley Alsace-Lorraine?
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Edward Langley Normandy?
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Edward Langley The Saxons under William the Conqueror?
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, for the most part, then
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Edward Langley Most of European society was founded by Roman conquest.
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Edward Langley and a long period of naturalization.
September 5 at 5:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe those people weren't liberated by their conquerors either
September 5 at 5:20pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And the tribes surrounding the Aztecs _were_ liberated by the conquest in some minimal sense.
September 5 at 5:20pm · Like
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Pater Edmund “…the Third Estate need not fear examining the past. It will betake itself to the year preceding the ‘conquest’; and as it is nowadays too strong to be conquered it will certainly resist effectively. Why should it not repatriate to the Franconian forests all the families who wildly claim to descend from the race of the conquerors and to inherit their rights of conquest? If it were purged in this way, I think the nation might well recover from the thought that thence-forward it would be reduced to the descendants of mere Gauls and Romans. When our poor fellow citizens insist on distinguishing one lineage and another, could nobody reveal to them that it is at least as good to be descended from the Gauls and the Romans as from the Sicambrians, Welches and other savages from the woods and swamps of ancient Germany? ‘True enough,’ some will say; ‘but conquest has upset all relationships and hereditary nobility now descends through the line of the conquerors.’ Well, then we shall have to arrange for it to descend through the other line! The Third Estate will become noble again by becoming a conqueror in its own turn.”
- Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès What is the Third Estate?
September 5 at 5:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They no longer had to give up their men and women as human sacrifices.
September 5 at 5:21pm · Like
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Pater Edmund http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../arthurian-republicanism/
Arthurian Republicanism
> “...the Third Estate need not fear examining the past. It will betake itself to the year preceding the ‘conquest’;...
EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM
September 5 at 5:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Could you define "Third Estate", Pater Edmund? I often confuse the various "Estates".
September 5 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund http://youtu.be/pVP9U4XK7FE?list=UU5Qm7V52b06JC36LLmXOQpg
Understanding God's Mercy, Lesson One (1/8) by Sheikh Dr Shomali, July 2010,...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 5:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it was a pretty long time before the rights the crown granted the natives made it to the New World in any very real sense.
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Samantha Cohoe In the meantime, most of them were dead from smallpox anyway
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Edward Langley That was a limitation of the transportation available at the time.
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Pater Edmund The first is the nobility (Frankish conquerers according to semi-official mythology), the second the clergy, the third the other people, Gauls according to Sieyès.
September 5 at 5:24pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, it's true, there was generally a lot of conquering all the time in history. I take back that claim
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Samantha Cohoe If you told the Indians at the time of Cortez that the Spaniards had liberated them, they just didn't know it yet because of the limits of transportation available to their masters, I think they'd be rather nonplussed
September 5 at 5:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I think whether or not the Indians thought they had been liberated would depend on whether you asked an Aztec or not.
September 5 at 5:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Spaniards didn't just enslave and slaughter Aztecs.
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Samantha Cohoe http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.html
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Samantha Cohoe But don't take my word for it, take Fr. Bartolome De Las Casas's
September 5 at 5:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I was focusing on what is now called "Mexico".
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Edward Langley And the Aztec Empire.
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Edward Langley And, historically, it's also not clear that Cortes is reponisible for what happened after his conquest of Mexico.
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Edward Langley He wasn't exactly on good terms with the Spanish government.
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Edward Langley I think it is a perfectly respectable position to hold that the natives were better off under Spain than under the Aztecs.
September 5 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That is a moderated version of your original claim.
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Samantha Cohoe But I have to make dinner. Ciao
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Edward Langley It's all I meant by "liberation"
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Edward Langley Bye!
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Aaron Gigliotti Matthew J. Peterson No one's talking! Take it down! Take it down! Take it DOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWNNNNN!!!!!!!!
September 5 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1Q8oFpX1Y
JIBO: The World's First Family Robot
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YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 5:54pm · Like · Remove Preview
Joshua Kenz All of the Europeans were more or less dicks to the natives. Of all the evil they are accused of, though, toppling the Aztecs was actually a good thing, in se. But human sacrifice was practiced elsewhere...Incas, Chimu, Moche....to this day in the highlands of Peru remnants of ritual combat happen every year where, before planting crops, members of different villages go all combaty with each other.
Now just because the Aztecs, and much of South American dominant tribes were evil, doesn't mean Europeans replaced them with beneficence.
In fact, if anything, the French treated the Indians far better than the Spaniards. And both were better than the English.
I have been told two reasons why the French treated them better
1. Religious- they have souls, must be converted. But this was true of the Spaniards and Portuguese
2. No legal slavery. Technically true of the Spaniards (on paper)
But really:
3. But here is what set them apart....they were interested in furs and the like, and less in land. It is simply more economical to be on good trading relations. No need for plantations, field hands, etc. Expediency, not beneficence.
Now, against Mrs. Cohoe, it must be said that members of other tribes did aid and ally with the Spaniards against the Aztecs. I think at the time they would see it as being liberated...it is what came shortly thereafter that would change that perception.
I also think the deplorable wickedness of many S. American tribes, either contemporary (Aztec) or already gone (Moche) was often seen as giving too great a warrant to lord over them. After all, their society was Satanic...if we have to subjugate them in order to save them, it is merely because they are savages.
The English and French had less basis for asserting such reasoning, of course, but that didn't stop the English....well in fairness, colonials. England, at least after the French and Indian Wars, had a far more humane policy. Which we enumerate among the intolerable acts of tyranny of course, but that is a whole other can of worms there!
September 5 at 5:55pm · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF I still want to hear more about the various options if one believes in an immortal soul for a material animal (i.e. man). Heck, it's hard to understand even with the other animals!
September 5 at 5:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, the break up of families and the attendant evil was not inherent in slavery. Even the Southern Jeremiads condemned that great sin in the ante-bellum south. In other words, even some of the fiercest proponents of slavery, said the south would be punished by God because of breaking up of slave families and the like
Brazil, which had slavery for a little while longer, did not allow the break up of families. Neither did Imperial Rome. That the Spaniards forbade such is a small thing, since even the Portuguese did that and they had slavery (de jure and de facto).
September 5 at 5:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley My point, though, was that the legal framework the Spaniards imposed on the natives is not a matter of "slavery".
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Edward Langley It's problems seem to stem less from the system itself than from corrupt officials.
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John Ruplinger Our Lady of Gaudalupe did not come to save anything but a less than hopeless situation.
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Edward Langley The relation of the French to the Indians is interesting, though.
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Edward Langley Especially in World War 0 where the Indians were employed by the French to basically wage total war against English settlements.
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I made dinner. I think Mr. Kenz summary is pretty much right.
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Samantha Cohoe Would you also argue that Russian serfdom wasn't slavery?
September 5 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, I am having a hard time following your analogizing the Spanish system with an 18th century fictitious system. You are saying that the Spanish modelled it after the construction of French philosophes writing 200 years later?
In case you cannot follow that, you do realize feudalism is a myth, right?
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Edward Langley Yes, as far as I know.
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Joshua Kenz Are you thinking of manoralism?
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Edward Langley I wasn't using Feudalism in any technical sense.
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Joshua Kenz Well, then what sense were you using the F-word in? I know of no consistent meaning, as bad historians trying to force it bak through projection come up with various contrary meanings....
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Samantha Cohoe Russian serfdom is a good example of "feudalism" that wasn't technically slavery, but in fact was.
September 5 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley What I meant was that, as far as I can tell, the government of the new world was just an extension of the way the government related to commoners in the Old World.
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Samantha Cohoe And I would guess encomienda was a lot worse, at least at its worse.
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Joshua Kenz In all seriousness, I have no idea what that word is supposed to mean here! Do you guys mean manorialism?
September 5 at 6:10pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know what Edward means. I think he just means that the natives were laborers on land that wasn't theirs
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Joshua Kenz Okay...sorry the cranky medievalist in me awoke. Fr. Thompson said once that if you even want to see a medievalist rant, just use the "F-word" (Feudalism).
September 5 at 6:11pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ed, let's just agree that "liberation" was a ridiculous thing to say, and I may have initially overstated the evils of encomienda
September 5 at 6:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe *may* have.
September 5 at 6:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can I call you Ed?
September 5 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley yes.
September 5 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I agree that it is ridiculous to say that the Spanish liberated the natives.
September 5 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I still reserve judgment about Cortes's expedition.
September 5 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
September 5 at 6:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Maybe, once I finish the Ph.D. thing I'll look in more depths into Spanish history.
September 5 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, Joshua, it looks like Manorialism is essentially what I meant by Feudalism
September 5 at 6:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (at least if Wiki is to be trusted)
September 5 at 6:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Interesting aspect though of the Spanish system....it encourage interbreeding with Europeans, as mixed-race were not subject to force labor. Compare that to the ante-bellum south....even if you could pass as white, e.g. most of the Healy family, if your mother was a slave, you were a slave (which leaves us with bizarre aspects of history, like a US naval officer who was legally a slave, a president of Georgetown that was born a slave and served while it had a no blacks policy, a bishop of Portland Maine that was legally a slave even as he was ordained a priest....oh that wacky Healy family, pretending to the black Irish...)
September 5 at 6:19pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Not to mention the Grimm family.
September 5 at 6:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Perhaps this is all I mean: "varying degrees of servile peasantry underpinning a hierarchy of localised power centers."
September 5 at 6:20pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I'm curious to learn more about Russian serfdom, Samantha.
September 5 at 6:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley My knowledge of Russian culture is pretty much limited to literature and Tchaikovsky.
September 5 at 6:22pm · Like
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Joel HF From the little I've read, the Russian system of serfdom was radically different than, say, the English system of "feudalism." But the emphasis here is on *little*
September 5 at 6:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley And all that tells me is that Tolstoy wanted to free the serfs.
September 5 at 6:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley A movement which seems to have lead directly to Communism.
September 5 at 6:24pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it was pretty different; England was always "freer", and got more free. Russia started out pretty free, and got increasingly less free, until Catherine initiated the reforms and Alexander completed them
September 5 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF You could buy and sell serfs in Tolstoy's day. Which you couldn't ever do to the peasantry of England, as far as I know.
September 5 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Was that a matter of buying and selling the land the serfs lived on?
September 5 at 6:25pm · Like
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Joel HF I dunno how that compares, say, to the French system in the middle-ages.
September 5 at 6:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd assume that, generally speaking, the ruler of the European serfs would be whoever owned the land they lived on.
September 5 at 6:26pm · Like
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Joel HF Katie Duda--explain serfdom in Tolstoy's day to us!
September 5 at 6:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The curious thing about Tolstoy, is that he seems to thinks that the serfs were the real Russians. (cf. that dancing serf scene in W&P)
September 5 at 6:27pm · Like
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Joel HF You know what a real weakness at TAC is? History. We don't learn it at all, basically, outside a few ancient works the first two years.
September 5 at 6:28pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz The medievalist in me wants to post this:
http://historymedren.about.com/od/feudalism/a/feudalism.htm
The Problem With Feudalism - the F-Word
Feudalism was once considered the prevailing social system of medieval Europe. But most medievalists have...
HISTORYMEDREN.ABOUT.COM|BY BY MELISSA SNELL
September 5 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz That said, how do you, ethically and really distinguish a serf from a slave?
September 5 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Thanks for that.
September 5 at 6:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley I feel like I should work feudalism into a conversation with Dr. Noone now.
September 5 at 6:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley I've already got him to rant about how only paleographers can determine what Aquinas really thought.
September 5 at 6:30pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz ???? So what, like the 10 people on earth that can read his handwriting have some Thomisticgnosis....?
September 5 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Only about 5 paleographs, from what I've heard
September 5 at 6:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's worse than that, you have to have read all the manuscript sources to really understand what St. Thomas thinks.
September 5 at 6:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Is Dr. Noone a Dunceman?
September 5 at 6:32pm · Like
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Joel HF So, basically nobody really understands it.
September 5 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley (i.e. Bonaventure, Alexander of Hales, Guibert of Tournai . . . )
September 5 at 6:32pm · Like
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Joel HF Probably Br. Reginald back in the day.
September 5 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, he's said that explicitly about analogy.
September 5 at 6:32pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Who says what about analogy?
September 5 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, for him and for most paleographers, understanding what St. Thomas thinks presupposes that you know who St. Thomas is responding to every time Thomas takes a position.
September 5 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Noone has said that Noone thinks no one (or almost no one) understands St. Thomas's doctrine of analogy.
September 5 at 6:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley Noone is CUA's resident Scotist, but this isn't a particularly Scotistic position: The acclaimed Fr. Gauthier (who edited the Leonine edition of the commentary on Nic. Ethics) seems to have thought something similar.
September 5 at 6:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No offense, but he sounds like an impossible blow....really?
And I suppose you need to under who they were responding to, and so on ad infinitum, or until we hit the point that we haven't a clue, because we don't have every thought, coversation, etc down
September 5 at 6:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, it seems to be the general position of the real Gilsonians.
September 5 at 6:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz So their position is that they don't have a frickin' clue what St. Thomas actually holds, because we know they do not have some hidden gnosis unavailable to everyone else, and their demand is impossible in reality.
September 5 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I think his position is a characteristic error of paleographers.
September 5 at 6:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just like there are certain opinions about music that are characteristic errors of musicians.
September 5 at 6:37pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz To overexalt their authority?
September 5 at 6:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Basically, in my experience experts generally treat their area of expertise as the Master Science.
September 5 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Does Noone himself claim to understand said doctrine?
September 5 at 6:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, I think his general position is that Aquinas hasn't seen all the difficulties and questions needed to resolve the positions.
September 5 at 6:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley And that Aquinas is usually too ambiguous on key points to be understood through mere consultation of his texts.
September 5 at 6:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Another example of this error, though, we had a literature professor give a lecture at TAC once. In the Q&A, he explicitly said that the study of literature should direct all the other sciences.
September 5 at 6:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley It was kinda surreal.
September 5 at 6:41pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah the old, he can't have a position, he hasn't answered every possible objection yet!
September 5 at 6:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, note, Noone is really amazing in terms of the extent of his reading and what he knows about the history and positions various medievals held.
September 5 at 6:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda natural for a Scotist to take that path, though.
September 5 at 6:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, it isn't TAC's fault that historians don't write great books.
September 5 at 6:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia read Livy and tell me that
September 5 at 6:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that was "modern historians" don't write great books.
September 5 at 7:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I kid I kid.
September 5 at 7:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mostly
September 5 at 7:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, what Ed said.
September 5 at 7:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IDK I've got a great history of the 30 years war that came out relatively recently
September 5 at 7:01pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But to go to what point can be made from what Noone says - if you want to understand great books one must turn to context.
It's great that TAC bends the stick the other way to break students free from rampant historicism, but after the beginning it provides one really needs to know context if one wants to truly understand the meaning of those great and not so great old books.
September 5 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yes, but the necessity of context for philosophy is pretty minimal
September 5 at 7:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley My counter-point is that if St. Thomas didn't think he needed to mention his sources and footnote to be understood, why should we need to read those sources?
September 5 at 7:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I thought Ramachandra Guha's history of modern india was quite good... edit: this comment was meant to be after Michael's.
September 5 at 7:06pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia If
September 5 at 7:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes if
September 5 at 7:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if context is "minimally important" for a study of philosophy then why does TAC seminar (where the bulk of the philosophy is) proceed historically?
September 5 at 7:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps because TAC doesn't intend to teach philosophy in seminar?
September 5 at 7:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I wouldn't call it minimal. Great errors arise comes from ignoring it. St. Thomas wasn't writing for people 7 centuries from his time.
If you're talking about the Summa, he was writing a textbook for advanced students. So yah, no footnotes. But he wrote what he did in the midst of very heated battles - I would hope that in grad school one dug into them for the sake of fully understanding him!
September 5 at 7:10pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Teaching philosophy ahistorically is an error
September 5 at 7:07pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Sure, to some degree.
September 5 at 7:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Someone like Locke is a good case in point. You can make Locke look like a number of different (even opposing) things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware of.
September 5 at 7:25pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Is it possible to understand Kant's first critique independent of Newton and British empiricism?
September 5 at 7:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Teaching Kant, in TAC's book, is only teaching philosophy per accidens..
September 5 at 7:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Even Aristotle places himself contextually by citing all the presocratics
September 5 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I grant that philosophy itself is not per se historical - but it is conducted by human beings who live in time and place and communicate within that time and place with the language they're given.
September 5 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley When they intend to teach philosophy (i.e. in the philosophy tutorial), they proceed according to the ordo doctrinae.
September 5 at 7:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia But Aristotle makes his own writing historical and contextual by citing his predecessors
September 5 at 7:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia to understand what his philosophical project is he thinks it is important to place it in context, at least in the "history of ideas"
September 5 at 7:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley Aristotle's procedure in citing predecessors is important, though, he generally mentions them in the context of laying out the possible positions on some question. In fact, even if all those philosophers were lost, the Aristotelian text would still make sense because the important thing is the position rather than the positioned.
September 5 at 7:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not against the history of philosophy per se, anyways. Especially when people realize that doing such history isn't just a matter of listing everyone's position on a given question.
September 5 at 7:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley However, it gets tiresome when medievalists prevent one from doing philosophy in the medieval mode: i.e. they want you to write monographs about Quaestiones Disputatae rather than writing your very own commentary on the Sentences.
September 5 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The historicism currently rampant often treats medieval philosophy as a dead school of thought.
September 5 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Not even Duane Berquist audio will make Aurelia sleep
September 5 at 7:16pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Interesting that the best old historians are little grasped or i should say appreciated by historians. Their inquiries and investigation transcend their eras.
September 5 at 7:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Aristotle observed that poetry (tragedy) was superior to history because of its universal character.
September 5 at 7:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not talking the "history of philosophy" but it is important to study chronologically because the ideas (positions as you put it) are usually a response to someone else, especially more so from the medievals on.
September 5 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The recent project to historicize philosophy is an attempt to particularize the universal. If one step away and look at poetry instead, many of the great poets require not much historical context to understand. (It was part of Bacon's project to historize all disciplines and we pretty much all lined up like docile ants to contribute our own iota.) But is Plato understandable without volumes of context? Is Aquinas so different? Isn't it a presumption against the possibility of what he attempted?
September 5 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- is that why Catherine isn't on this thread much?
September 5 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia isn't there a pretty good transition from British Empiricist --> Kant --> Hegel --> etc etc?
September 5 at 7:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Michael, that's the position I deny, at least for the medievals.
September 5 at 7:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, do we even bother to study all the figures in the British Empiricist tradition?
September 5 at 7:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I actually have a historical theory of error
September 5 at 7:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If one is setting up a position simply for setting up a position, not because someone *actually* held that position, isn't that what we call "straw man"?
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I've been thinking about Scott's two souls in one body theory of twinning.
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley No: a straw man is also an intentionally weak position.
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Anyone want to hear a defense of his position?
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Heretic
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia heresy
September 5 at 7:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Unlike Scott, I do not deny my heresy
September 5 at 7:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Go ahead, Samantha? (Is it ok if I just call you Sam ?)
September 5 at 7:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mrs. Cohoe to you
September 5 at 7:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's a straw man if you're setting up a position no one holds specifically to refute it.
September 5 at 7:39pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, I think the problem we all had with his position is that we basically have an Aristotelian understanding of the soul, and don't see how a body can have two forms
September 5 at 7:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Mrs. doesn't apply to people who went to school with my in-laws .
September 5 at 7:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? Who're your in-laws?
September 5 at 7:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jonathan and Henry Teichert.
September 5 at 7:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But, what if we say that there was divine intervention, such that both souls simultaneously act as form of the matter in exactly the same way?
September 5 at 7:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, who did you marry?
September 5 at 7:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Bernadette.
September 5 at 7:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Now, obviously, this *is* seriously ad hoc.
September 5 at 7:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But there doesn't seem to be a solution to the problem that isn't seriously ad hoc. Other than ensoulment taking place later, which has its own problems
September 5 at 7:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that defense might involve a contradiction.
September 5 at 7:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley Mor soon.
September 5 at 7:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh, congrats.
September 5 at 7:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why does later ensoulment cause problems
September 5 at 7:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, I don't think that is possible. Even if we took a faulty Scotis view, of multiple substantial forms in one body, they are still conatined by the higher form. If they both act "in the same way" well, I think that is just incoherent.
It is also difficult, because one would basically have to hold that God, forseeing the twinning, prepares for it by cramming two souls in, but twinning really does seem to be a natural process of generation, and is potential in any zygote....so does every zygote have an indefinite number of souls? It just seems like a huge stretch.
September 5 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael--it does seem asdhic
September 5 at 7:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sorry, toddler attack
September 5 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger MB. I agree with you and Langley. wrt old historians they were not about the mere chronicle of deeds and facts. Why did Herodotus write? Plutarch? Bede? They were more universal in their aims than many contemporary philosophers.
September 5 at 7:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There is one, self-directed, biological organism from conception. If it doesn't have a rational soul, what sort of organism is it? Is it still human? I dunno, maybe it's not a huge problem, but it seems strange to me.
September 5 at 7:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I'm not entirely clear on what the later ensoulment view entails
September 5 at 7:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just to quibble, Joshua, I'm not sure that Scotus's pluriformist view is actually objectionable: from what I've heard, it seems closer to the view of elemental presence Aquinas lays out in De Mixtione Elementorum than a full-blown pluriformism.
September 5 at 7:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Josh, your second paragraph seems right. I don't understand your first
September 5 at 7:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Although, on further thought, why would it be problematic to assert that God foresees every aspect of twinning and provides an extra soul? Other than the ad hoc problem.
September 5 at 7:54pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley For the second soul to inform the matter, the matter would have to retain the potency to form in the way it had it prior to information. But that would imply that there were two matters in the composite: in addition to the proximate matter (flesh and bones, etc.) there would be this unchangeable remote matter that just kinda sat there. But that just isn't the way matter works.
September 5 at 7:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley One argument: matter is relative to form; thus, as the more universal form stands to the less universal form so the remote matter stands to the proximate matter; but the more universal form (i.e. the form of substance) does not stand to the less universal form (i.e. the form of man) as one form two another but rather as two aspects of the same form. So too, the more remote matter does not stand to the more proximate matter as two matters but rather as the same matter considered in two different ways.
September 5 at 7:55pm · Like
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Joel HF I think Joshua nailed it. Does God foresee the twinning or tripletting, etc and stuff in X number of souls ahead? It certainly seems more like twinning is a natural potential of zygotes.
September 5 at 7:58pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, so is being conceived a natural potential of human persons. But we still think God has to "stuff in" an immortal soul, right?
September 5 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Thus, after information, the matter in the man doesn't retain the potency to the soul of man in the way it did before hand and, as such, cannot be re-informed by a form of the same kind.
September 5 at 7:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ed, sorry, I've put the kids to bed and had a beer. Your last two seem like gibberish to me.
September 5 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They might be.
September 5 at 7:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<Well, so is being conceived a natural potential of human persons. But we still think God has to "stuff in" an immortal soul, right?>>> Seriously, though, is this what we think? This ensoulment talk has me confused.
September 5 at 8:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha--the Thomistic-Aristotelian view of ensoulment--even for purely non-rational souls--always confused the hell out of me.
September 5 at 8:06pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I mean, I follow it, but it * does * seem ad hoc and "like a dodge." Still, the other views of ensoulment of which I'm aware seem even shiftier.
September 5 at 8:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see what's confusing about it.
September 5 at 8:09pm · Like
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Joel HF The hey presto creation ex nihilo is awfully convenient, yes?
September 5 at 8:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But, that's absolutely necessary.
September 5 at 8:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Only God can create an intellect: since if something lower could create an intellect, that intellect would be perfectly satisfied by contemplation of that lower thing.
September 5 at 8:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And it's beatitude wouldn't be the beatific vision.
September 5 at 8:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Sure, I mean, I'm convinced by it. But it doesn't sit easily. Like I said, it follows from things I think have to be true, and every other explanation seems even weaker.
September 5 at 8:14pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe OK, but what's the difference between saying that God put two souls in one zygote knowing that there would be a twinning, and saying that God puts an immortal soul in a sufficiently developed embryo? Am I getting the ensoulment view wrong?
September 5 at 8:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Because matter must be proportioned to form.
September 5 at 8:15pm · Like
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Joel HF Though, actually, I reject your argument Edward. Only on the order of grace are humans called to the beatific vision.
September 5 at 8:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But this lower thing that co-creates the intellect creates a matter that is only able to exist as an intellect-infused thing. In other words the matter of man (species not gender) must be rationally ensouled.
September 5 at 8:16pm · Like
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Joel HF Get out of here with your nouvelle theologie!
September 5 at 8:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's Augustine.
September 5 at 8:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In twinning the soul splits in two. Twins have strange characteristics. Mysterious indeed. Far more we cant know than can and both outstrip by light years what we think we know.
September 5 at 8:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Edward, you misspelled "Henri de Lubac"
September 5 at 8:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe John, I'm pretty sure that's NOT what we want to say
September 5 at 8:18pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley IT's also straight out of Bonaventure.
September 5 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The soul can't intrinsically change in that way.
September 5 at 8:20pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Do you think that we desire to know God by our nature?
September 5 at 8:20pm · Like
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Joel HF *in his essence that is
September 5 at 8:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas implies that in some sense in ST I.12.1
September 5 at 8:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Somebody tell me about ensoulment! Where is Mr. Kenz?
September 5 at 8:21pm · Like
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Joel HF He bloody well does not!
September 5 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger kidding. But they are strange. I have heard many stories. Some from twins.
September 5 at 8:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sorry, I.12.2
September 5 at 8:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Cum enim ultima hominis beatitudo in altissima eius operatione consistat, quae est operatio intellectus, si nunquam essentiam Dei videre potest intellectus creatus, vel nunquam beatitudinem obtinebit, vel in alio eius beatitudo consistet quam in Deo. Quod est alienum a fide. In ipso enim est ultima perfectio rationalis creaturae, quia est ei principium essendi, intantum enim unumquodque perfectum est, inquantum ad suum principium attingit. Similiter etiam est praeter rationem. Inest enim homini naturale desiderium cognoscendi causam, cum intuetur effectum; et ex hoc admiratio in hominibus consurgit. Si igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam rerum, remanebit inane desiderium naturae. Unde simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam videant."
September 5 at 8:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley I.12.1
September 5 at 8:23pm · Like
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Joel HF You think the "light of glory" is on the order of nature?
September 5 at 8:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Si igitur intellectus rationalis creaturae pertingere non possit ad primam causam rerum, remanebit inane desiderium naturae."
September 5 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes, we naturally desire to know God
September 5 at 8:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Unde simpliciter concedendum est quod beati Dei essentiam videant."
September 5 at 8:26pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF To jump waaaay back, Matthew J. Peterson "You can make Locke look like a number of different (even opposing) things depending on what you read of him and what part of context you are aware of." One can even make Locke look like he agrees with Aquinas!
September 5 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Interesting about Locke. That happens with aquinas. Interpreting into texts is a modern phenomena. We simply dont try hard enough to understand what an author means, compounded by the problem that many dont know what they mean themselves.
September 5 at 8:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as far as the ensoulment problem goes, I don't see how one can rationally take another take than delayed ensoulment. From what we know, biologically, of human generation it seems a huge waste of rational souls to create so many that will never develop.
Dr. Optiz on the bioethics counsel testified that between 60 and 80% of naturally conceived human embryos get thrown out with the monthly bathwater. If they are ensouled, and suffer the stain of original sin, then God appears a bit monstrous. I'm not asking anyone to gird up their loins like a man, but how does this make any sense if fertilization = ensoulment
September 5 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger MB. Good point. Good discussion. I am at a loss. It is a mystery but God is just. I dont worry about matters so hidden to us..
September 5 at 8:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I"m not sure who makes Locke look like he agrees with Aquinas.
September 5 at 8:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm sure whomever it was was at TAC Matt
September 5 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley I thought that was a reference to the Lockistotle dustup
September 5 at 8:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No kidding John ßwenkler. It's funny how these scholars of Aristotle jump right over his errors and head straight to the modern eugenic scientist for explanations about the human soul. They don't do dogmatic theology. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception might be something they keep in a shoe box somewhere, but they certainly don't study it.
September 5 at 8:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ahh but Strauss on the other hand MP
September 5 at 8:50pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF "Respondeo dicendum quod impossibile est quod aliquis intellectus creatus per sua naturalia essentiam Dei videat." I.12.4
September 5 at 8:54pm · Like
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Joel HF "Sed intellectus noster vel angelicus, quia secundum naturam a materia aliqualiter elevatus est, potest ultra suam naturam per gratiam ad aliquid altius elevari." I.12.4 ad 3
September 5 at 8:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nouvelle Theologie aside, the question is, could a created intellect have perfect beatitude in attainment of something less than God.
September 5 at 8:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, what do you make of Q.D. de veritate q 14, a. 3
September 5 at 8:58pm · Like
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Joel HF "Aliud est bonum hominis naturae humanae proportionem excedens, quia ad ipsum obtinendum vires naturales non sufficiunt, nec etiam ad cognoscendum vel desiderandum; sed ex sola divina liberalitate homini repromittitur;"
September 5 at 9:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger what nature lacks, God supplies. By nature we cannot attain our natural end. Was it so in Eden? [ To the previous quotes, Joel. I am not sure I understand the last.]
September 5 at 9:08pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, you are aware that there is a science of living things, right? and that science is called Biology? And it makes the faithful look like absolute jackasses if they don't understand it and speak in enthymemetic syllophor?
September 5 at 9:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Additionally, Scott it is easy to talk trash, but less easy to, say, define "conception" which you have failed to do in any meaningful non-metagismic way.
September 5 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott--I'm still nct convinced that the IC requires us to say what everything you want us to--then again, I'm not exactly sure what you take the dogma to mean.
September 5 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF #metagism gnosis
September 5 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there are a few things that are clear in human development:
1: there is fertilization
2: there is ensoulment
3: the first is a biological act, the second, divine.
after that you lose me
September 5 at 9:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially since uncritical defense of the IC could result in saying that Mary doesn't need the Passion to be saved.
September 5 at 9:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that and uncritical defense of various poorly understood things leads one to being a flat earther.
Do we have pictures of Scott in a tinfoil hat?
September 5 at 9:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, depends what you mean by "ensoulment": before the rational soul there is already a vegetative soul and probably a sensitive soul, on the hypothesis of delayed ensoulment.
September 5 at 9:09pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer RE: Human development...they drive in a way to truly irritate me ALL THE TIME!!!
September 5 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley At least, both vegetative and sensitive souls are both the kinds of things that are proportioned to natural causes while the rational soul requires a divine cause.
September 5 at 9:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm referring to "ensoulment" as that point in time in the development that a rational soul is placed in matter. (I hate "informed" as a philsophic term)
September 5 at 9:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see above
September 5 at 9:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Placed in" runs the risk of sounding Plartesian.
September 5 at 9:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I agree that "informed" is pure jargon.
September 5 at 9:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as regards 'vegetative' or 'animal' soul, sperm have DNA and move, are they living or parts of something living?
September 5 at 9:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yes?
September 5 at 9:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see any reason to deny Aristotle's view that the sperm is an instrument of the father.
September 5 at 9:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that means it is a distinct, incomplete, living thing.
September 5 at 9:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what would a distinct, incomplete, animal soul be like?
September 5 at 9:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Who's purpose is to dispose the egg to receiving a human form.
September 5 at 9:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, living is said there equivocally, surely.
September 5 at 9:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Don't think so, except in the way "living" is equivocal between plants, animals and men.
September 5 at 9:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we could ask similar questions about the egg. otherwise petri dish fertilization wouldn't be possible
September 5 at 9:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the accounts of both are parallel (and actually don't necessarily contradict Aristotle's view)
September 5 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley at least if one abstracts from niggling details
September 5 at 9:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I agree that they are parallel, but I'm not sure that Aristotle's account gives us the proper distinctions.
September 5 at 9:16pm · Like
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Joel HF It has to be "alive" in some sense. But not in the way a complete living thing is, which reproduces others of its kind, etc.
September 5 at 9:16pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia ^so what "form" does that have^
September 5 at 9:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Have you read Generation of Animals? I think it's position is defensible in the main.
September 5 at 9:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Edward, it's been a while....
September 5 at 9:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, a form similar to what a separately existing human cell has.
September 5 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but different too, I suppose
September 5 at 9:18pm · Like
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Joel HF Haven't.
September 5 at 9:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah: the transitional forms in generation are intrinsically ordered to the final human.
September 5 at 9:19pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Edward Langley--you mean like, if a skin cell was kept alive in a petri dish, what form would it have?
September 5 at 9:19pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley The form in the separated cell, of itself will not survive.
September 5 at 9:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, yes.
September 5 at 9:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Was there a lockistotle dust up in these circles? What precipitated it?
September 5 at 9:20pm · Like
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Joel HF Similarly, with the sperm and the egg, right? My biology may be off, but they don't really have the nutritive faculty once they've been developed, do they?
September 5 at 9:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia way to change the subject Peterson. jerk.
September 5 at 9:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think you shared Seagrave or someone talking about how Locke's political philosophy is compatible with Aristotelianism
September 5 at 9:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia what does "nutritive faculty" even mean with regard to cells?
September 5 at 9:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, the sperm and egg have to have the nutritive faculty in some sense, because their nature is to cause something human to come to be.
September 5 at 9:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia other than one-celled creature that eat - hi amoeba!
September 5 at 9:22pm · Like
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Joel HF And then threw a fit when it was criticized. "He was taught by Straussians! He was taught by Lavalians! Don't you think he already understands your feeble objections!"
September 5 at 9:22pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Michael, cells eat too: they take in sugar and give off other chemicals.
September 5 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia sort of
September 5 at 9:23pm · Like
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Joel HF Mostly though, it is about counter-trolling the troll. Your own motto is "always be trolling" after all! }:-)
September 5 at 9:23pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley They also regenerate things similar in kind through cell division.
September 5 at 9:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley The other part of the nutritive faculty.
September 5 at 9:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia again, sort of
September 5 at 9:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley There's no "sort of" about it.
September 5 at 9:24pm · Like
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Joel HF Michael--I was thinking what Edward was saying. Most (though not all?) cells can take in nutrition from the blood. Certainly living things considered as whole organisms can. Sperm and egg can't, until the egg gets fertilized and implanted.
September 5 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there is a "sort of" if you're talking about parts of a whole.
September 5 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley But they participate in a higher faculty of the nutritive soul, reproduction.
September 5 at 9:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia otherwise you couldn't go from zygote to animal with distinct parts
September 5 at 9:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the cells "regenerated" are of different types from the beginning cell. So.... sort of
September 5 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That wasn't what I was thinking of.
September 5 at 9:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley I was thinking of skin cells reproducing to form skin cells.
September 5 at 9:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I was thinking of them existing separately from the body. . . .
September 5 at 9:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's why talking about cells opens a huge can of worms. How do you get from sperm+egg to skin cells, muscle cells, heart cells......
September 5 at 9:27pm · Like
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Joel HF The problem is that microbiology is posterior to macrobiology in the order of knowing.
September 5 at 9:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fair enough. I don't think we necessarily disagree
September 5 at 9:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Stem cells seems to be more like equivocal causes.
September 5 at 9:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so saith DeChronic Joel)
September 5 at 9:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Which are the instruments of the animal's soul to form all the parts of the animal.
September 5 at 9:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia instruments that possess the higher functions of nutritive souls, right?
September 5 at 9:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or do they only possess them in virtue of being a part of that thing that has an animal soul?
September 5 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or both?
September 5 at 9:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Aurelia finally succumbed to Berquist's sleep inducing voice. I fear I will follow not far behind. Of course, his voice is sleep inducing because it is soporific.
September 5 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They only possess them in virtue of being parts because they don't have proper forms while being parts.
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's opium Joel
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, when separated, their quasi-forms retain the ability to main existence for some time.
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially if aided by art.
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so a cell that is part of an animal doesn't have a proper form, but if we separate it then it gets a form, properly?
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Berquist's voice is classified by the DEA as a class I opiate.
September 5 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I suffered through junior theo and soph phil. I know.
September 5 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Sorta.
September 5 at 9:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sounds a little like a dodge
September 5 at 9:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, I object to cartoon objections - he doesn't claim Lockistotle - perhaps one might argue that what he says amounts to such if one grapples with his argument.
People were laying out the ridiculous jump to conclusions mat that day, bringing out objections that only an idiot would never have considered, regardless of whether or not one agrees with his conclusions.
But such is the internets: your complicated book gets summarized in an article and then the article gets posted and then people make comments based on the headline.
But the Lockistotle debate is usually had in other circles...
I finished my review, and thus far they say it will be published later this fall.
September 5 at 9:33pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't think its a dodge, when I say "sorta" I mean the form can't really maintain existence in the way a form should.
September 5 at 9:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but if aided by art, how does it continue except by virtue of its own form
September 5 at 9:34pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Or, people read the article and found it unconvincing for obvious reasons and it pissed you off b/c you want everyone to cheer wildly for "innovation" so that we aren't a backwater school. I mean, I know bugger all, so don't take what I say seriously, but if the objections were so handily dismissible, you could have engaged with their substance.
September 5 at 9:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult (atypically) but all this applies to human development, generation and ultimately what we understand when we profess the dogma of the IC
September 5 at 9:36pm · Like
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Joel HF I do admit that the book may very well have been (and probably was) more meaty. That doesn't make the article more convincing.
September 5 at 9:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Going waaaay back-- I don't know about the "stained with original sin" aspect of the equation, but I don't think it's a very solid argument against personhood from conception to point out the high percentage of early miscarriages. It's only very recently that the majority of children survived childhood. Do we say that makes God a monster? seems like an analogous case.
September 5 at 9:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley The reason I call it a quasi-form is not because it acts like a real form nor because it isn't a real form (for some value of "real"), but because it isn't the form of a being complete in itself.
September 5 at 9:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the headline was juicy though
September 5 at 9:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha, children who died (in the past) were typically baptized. that doesn't happen to four cells that leave with the menstrual cycle
September 5 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Are Cajetan's commentaries on the summa available online?
September 5 at 9:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley yes
September 5 at 9:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, ok, in Christendom, sure. Millions of children have died unbaptized though. I'm not sure your objection changes the substance, just the numbers.
September 5 at 9:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/repedleo.html
Editio Leonina
CORPUSTHOMISTICUM.ORG|BY ENRIQUE ALARCÓN
September 5 at 9:40pm · Like · Remove Preview
Joel HF Woohoo! Thanks Edward!
September 5 at 9:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but if 60% (taking the smaller figure) die before the fertilized egg implants, that means much much more than any infant mortality figure.
If you think that 20% infant mortality is high, this is 10 times that many
September 5 at 9:42pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Why would abortifacient contraception be wrong in the early stages then? Prior to full ensoulment? (I realize this isn't a real argument against, b/c I'm assuming what I should be proving.)
September 5 at 9:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Because of the dignity of human life.
September 5 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Thanks Ed, now I had to delete my long winded reply
September 5 at 9:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley All the transitional beings are human lives.
September 5 at 9:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley No problem.
September 5 at 9:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm saying there is already a number that is impossible to accept comfortably, so the problem has to be dealt with whether we posit 60% of ensouled persons being miscarried or no
September 5 at 9:45pm · Like
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Joel HF How does this not reduce to the MP's "Every Sperm is Sacred"?
September 5 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't see a problem with that claim?
September 5 at 9:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which claim
September 5 at 9:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Every sperm is sacred"
September 5 at 9:46pm · Like
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Joel HF What claim? That the sperm are little homonculi that mustn't be killed on any account?
September 5 at 9:46pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It's not like I think that it's moral to use sperm for something besides generation.
September 5 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia why does this always degenerate into sex?
NFP arguments? Anyone? Buehler?
September 5 at 9:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe not my fault this time
September 5 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It's funny the path this particular conversation took Church dogma -> arguments about ensoulment -> sex
September 5 at 9:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley The NFP conversation, at least, was a forthright conversation about sex.
September 5 at 9:48pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Innate natural drives?
September 5 at 9:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley now the conversation is getting all meta
September 5 at 9:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe well...I still don't get ensoulment.
September 5 at 9:53pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia neither do I
September 5 at 9:54pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think the rest of them do either
September 5 at 9:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe they're pretending
September 5 at 9:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as a Catholic, I've got this:
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
September 5 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I've been trying to explain this to you
September 5 at 9:54pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Only James Brown can truly tell us what ensoulment is.
September 5 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which is hard to reconcile with more than half of people not getting the chance to be baptized.
which is why I think delayed ensoulment is the more rational choice
September 5 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe can't you do some kind of baptism of desire stuff?
September 5 at 9:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've heard Catholics make a lot of hay with baptism of desire
September 5 at 9:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that's possible.
September 5 at 9:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, in the main, it's all speculation.
September 5 at 9:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not going to dig up the article, but the comments and objections were ASSume city, ridiculously put, and not worth responding too.
It wasn't clear from the article what his response/argument was/would be, or whether or not it was correct: but it was clear he was well aware of the objections made by people with far less professional interaction with said objections than he's got under his belt.
September 5 at 9:58pm · Like
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Joel HF That still leaves all the non-Christians out in the cold. I mean, China still largely hasn't been proselytized, just for one instane.
September 5 at 9:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Officially" Baptism happens in three circumstances:
1. Ordinarily: through water
2. Extraordinarily:
2a. If a catechumen dies while intending to become a Christian
2b. If a catechumen is martyred.
September 5 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The latter two are "Baptism of Desire" and "Baptism of Blood".
September 5 at 9:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not being a Catholic, I can just be all "I trust God's mercy. No need to worry about unbaptized babies."
September 5 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley But the chatechism mentions that non-Christians who sincerely seek God and try to do his will may be aved.
September 5 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or something like that.
September 5 at 10:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Agreeing with Seagrave of TAC and ND on the public discourse is not going to change our backwater status. Hah. I cheer for people out in the ring wrestling with ideas - I still think the jury will be out for a while (and for me as well) as people argue with him more over time and he's forced to deal with objections.
September 5 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, I don't think God is limited to the sacramental order.
September 5 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell "I got soul ... and I'm superbad."
http://youtu.be/LJ9CLOEOB5U
James Brown - SUPER BAD !full length!
********Funk Power******* 1970 -A Brand New Thang- for educational purposes only
YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 10:01pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Wasn't Seagrave the one that argued that our common experience rules out evolution?
September 5 at 10:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/05/9954/
Evolution and the Eye Test
Darwin’s evolutionary theory rests on a problematic premise: Our senses don’t tell us the truth about nature.
THEPUBLICDISCOURSE.COM
September 5 at 10:02pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley I guess, he's a little more nuanced than that.
September 5 at 10:03pm · Like
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Joel HF The Catechism mentions it, but then you have dozens of much more magisterial statements, such as the one Beitia quoted above, saying baptism and the Catholic church are necessary and exclusive means of salvation.
September 5 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Sure, but the difficulty is interpreting what "baptism" means.
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Edward Langley Baptism of Desire comes from the Fathers, and Baptism of Blood is implied by the feast of the Holy Innocents: none of whom were baptized.
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah - profoundly disagree with that one.
September 5 at 10:04pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But I look forward to Joel HF 's review of my review!
September 5 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If "Baptism" just means the conferral of sanctifying grace (which ordinarily occurs through the sacramental order), then there is no problem affirming the Canon Beitia quotes.
September 5 at 10:05pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah, here's the money quote: "After all, some serious philosophers—most notably Aristotle, Aquinas, and Locke—think that all of our knowledge of the world comes initially through our senses." LOCKISTOTLE! J'ACCUSE!
September 5 at 10:07pm · Unlike · 6
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Joel HF Baptism of desire and blood are surely the teaching of the church
September 5 at 10:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Um. No. That's jest true.
September 5 at 10:08pm · Like
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Joel HF The Catechism gets into more controversial ground. Not that the CCC is wrong, just that (at the very least) this is still open for debate.
September 5 at 10:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF I'll expose your esoteric teaching to the harsh light of day, Peterson
September 5 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The point is that, if God in certain circumstances saves people w/o using the sacramental order, it's not unreasonable to hope that he saves others w/o using the sacramental order.
September 5 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think it parallels the way "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" has been interpreted.
September 5 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Yeah, that's a very closely related doctrine.
September 5 at 10:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yuuuup
September 5 at 10:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, the treatment of the Feeneyites indicates that that doctrine is to be interpreted in terms of the "invisible Church". i.e. all the baptized.
September 5 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia blah blah sentimentalist garbage
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Edward Langley blah blah rigorist garbage.
September 5 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Remember when the NYT was publishing articles about how limbo would be abolished any day now?
September 5 at 10:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia the canon says baptism is necessary. "what do you mean by baptism?" really?
September 5 at 10:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, the canon doesn't rule out either baptism of blood or baptism of desire.
September 5 at 10:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Everyone's in heaven but Hitler and Judas. It's all good
September 5 at 10:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny how my various conversations on Facebook relate
September 5 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley A week or so ago, I was arguing against universalism and now I'm being accused of universalism.
September 5 at 10:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yeah. . . "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" depends on what you mean by "church"
September 5 at 10:36pm · Like
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Joel HF we are church
September 5 at 10:36pm · Like
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Joel HF every religion is also church
September 5 at 10:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley But the Catholic Church has always affirmed the validity of Orthodox and Christian Baptisms as long as the form and matter are sufficient.
September 5 at 10:37pm · Like
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Joel HF atheism if lived authentically, also church
September 5 at 10:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, at the very least, baptism is co-extensive with the church
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Joel HF To put aside my flippancy, what has that to do with anything.
September 5 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So there must be a distinction between the visible church and the invisible church.
September 5 at 10:38pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, baptism is co-extensive with the church. The church has no (direct) authority over the non-baptized.
September 5 at 10:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what is the "invisible church"
September 5 at 10:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley All the validly baptized.
September 5 at 10:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Whether Roman Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.
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Joel HF I don't think that's the distinction b/w the visible and invisible church
September 5 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Read Unam Sanctam again
September 5 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe well, "church" does have a lot of meanings
September 5 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF People who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by heresy, or apostasy, or schism, are decidedly not the "invisible church." At least, not as I ever heard the term used.
September 5 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's like taking the St. Thomas article about the demons being subject to the kingship of Christ as saying that they are part of the church
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Edward Langley Joel, setting aside those that are separate due to sin, my definition is more or less accurate.
September 5 at 10:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley (due to personal sin)
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Samantha Cohoe I think I'm going to bow out now. Good night.
September 5 at 10:42pm · Like
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Joel HF What definition?
September 5 at 10:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia to quote you, Ed:
Sure, but the difficulty is interpreting what "baptism" means.
September 5 at 10:42pm · Like
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Joel HF Good night, Samantha!
September 5 at 10:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley The definition I just gave (modified here): the invisible church is all the baptized who have not separated themself through personal sin.
September 5 at 10:42pm · Like
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Joel HF All that are validly baptized (and living) are part of the church militant.
September 5 at 10:44pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Ok, then why did you object "People who have divided themselves from the church whether it be by heresy, or apostasy, or schism . . ."
September 5 at 10:44pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Well, the living are still visible, is my main objection
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Edward Langley Church militant / triumphant / suffering is a different division from the one I'm laying out.
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Edward Langley As I'm dividing, it has to do with their public connection to the Roman Catholic Church.
September 5 at 10:46pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley But, however the words are used, what I said still stands: "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" does not mean "only those who die in a state of grace who claim to belong to the Roman Catholic Church are saved".
September 5 at 10:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley It means "anyone validly baptized who dies in a state of grace is saved".
September 5 at 10:48pm · Like
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Joel HF It isn't a division I've heard from Catholics before, not as you are using it. But your point about the validity baptisms of and by people the church considers heretics is accepted by all, I think.
September 5 at 10:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley And "baptized", at the very least, can refer to the ordinary baptism of water and the extraordinary baptisms of blood and desire.
September 5 at 10:50pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger invisible = those in sanctifying grace
visible = all baptized Catholic pew warmers everywhere.
September 5 at 10:53pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, I might be misremembering the Baltimore Catechism, but I kinda remember a picture of a boat with little ropes hanging off of it.
September 5 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sure, but the old understanding of that would be that if an infant was baptized by heretics, he *would belong to the Church*
September 5 at 10:52pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne *desire (extraordinary)
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Joel HF Yes, so do I. And I don't have some ultra-rigourist views, really. I just think people are too quick to have this idea that everybody is saved without struggling with the fact that for much of history this view would have been decidedly not a mainstream catholic view.
September 5 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia depends on whether you're talking about the "ordinary" mainstream of the "extraordinary" mainstream
September 5 at 10:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, that's not what I'm saying: what I'm saying is that there is space in Catholic doctrine for non-Christians and unbaptized infants to receive sanctifying grace.
September 5 at 10:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^false
September 5 at 10:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley ^false
September 5 at 10:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying grace.
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Michael Beitia Seriously, how could an unbaptized infant receive sanctifying grace
September 5 at 10:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley How did the Holy Innocents receive sanctifying grace?
September 5 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Old law
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Joel HF Well, I think that it may be possible that where the parents desired to have the infant baptized with the same desire that a catechuman had (i.e., they don't plan on doing it "sometime" but as soon as humanly possible), then that desire can stand in place for the child. Just as the parent's/godparent's answers stand in place of the infants at the actual baptism. But I'm open to correction here, and don't think this is officially taught anywhere.
September 5 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^really circituitous
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Edward Langley That's not why they're venerated as Saints, Beitia.
September 5 at 10:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia more Trent!:
If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema.
September 5 at 10:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF " Not that they necessarily do receive sanctifying grace" How is *anyone* getting saved w/o sanctifying grace? Isn't it need by definition?
September 5 at 10:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia still old law
September 5 at 10:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley You're misreading that sentence, Joel, it's not a statement about the necessity of sanctifying grace but a denial of a universal grant of sanctifying grace.
September 5 at 10:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Beitia--I do think that it is Church teaching (if not de fide, then close to it) that the baptism of blood is sufficient for salvation. Also, a firm baptism of desire, though this is taught later.
September 5 at 10:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley That canon of Trent is beside the point, as far as I can tell, Michael.
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Michael Beitia you said "unbaptized" anathema sit
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Edward Langley oh, I see, I meant "not baptized in the ordinary way"
September 5 at 11:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what does that even mean?
September 5 at 11:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley i.e. didn't have water move over their heads.
September 5 at 11:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia are they baptized with coffee?
September 5 at 11:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah, Edward, the CCC is decidedly ambiguous: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
September 5 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, they could receive the baptism of blood
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Michael Beitia Iff martyred
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Joel HF http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#xi
Unbaptized infants - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian Church; frequently called the 'first sacrament', the 'door of the sacraments', and the 'door of the Church'
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 5 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not trying to be any more definite than the CCC
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Michael Beitia CCC is not de fide
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Edward Langley Never said it was.
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Edward Langley It still is an authority owed "religious submission of intellect and will"
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Edward Langley as promulgated by the Holy Father.
September 5 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was responding to Joel
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--I know, I said that like 200 comments ago! I was just pointing out that it was also hardly clear on the point.
September 5 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger invisible = Joan of arc
visible = those who condemned her
September 5 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Edward--what of the cases where it clashes w/ other church doctrine also owed religious submission?
September 5 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Thus, we see that sometimes God gives sanctifying grace even though the person wasn't baptized with water. Therefore, it is not a matter of doctrine that baptism of water is necessary in every case. Therefore, it's possible that non-publically-Christians and infants who never received the baptism of water somehow receive an extraordinary grant of grace.
September 5 at 11:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, I'd say the newer document supercedes
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, I'd guess that Kenz or someone has a more definitive answer.
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^historicist^
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger CCC only recommemds hope. That is all.
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia quiz: does that have the assent of faith?
September 5 at 11:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley ?
September 5 at 11:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Up there. it's a quote
September 5 at 11:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley re. historicist.
September 5 at 11:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia newer document? can never contradict older document and must be interpreted as such
September 5 at 11:06pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley only if both are de fide, or if the older document is de fide.
September 5 at 11:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley if they are both matters for "religious submission of intellect and will", then they can be in contradiction.
September 5 at 11:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley In which case, I'd argue that the newer document stands.
September 5 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Edward is correct.
Baptism by water, desire and blood are all recognized.
If a catechuman on his way to the Easter Vigil is struck by a car, and you believe he will end up in hell because he was not baptized by water, that is not a Catholic understanding. God is not bound by the Sacraments, although they are His ordinary means of acting.
In the case of infant baptism, it is the Faith of the parents that brings the child to baptism (which is why it is licit for a Pastor to refuse baptism to a child if he is convinced the parents will not bring the child up in the Faith).
There was actually a commission looking into the question of baptism of desire re: parents who suffer a tragic miscarriage... since their Faith brings the child to the font, and they were only impeded from administering it by the mother's flesh which was in the way - could baptism of desire apply? I think it is a great question.... but I don't think it will be answered with much more than "we don't really know - but we entrust the child to the mercy of God, knowing His love is greater even than the love of the parents...."
September 5 at 11:08pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia again, unam sanctam- de fide
again trent - de fide
again Lateran IV - de fide
the quote I just posted - de fide
September 5 at 11:08pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley As far as your quote goes, it's from an encyclical: I'm not really sure about their authority. I think that they are not necessarily part of the infallible teaching authority of the Church.
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John Ruplinger Again reread the CCC. It recommends nothing to faith, only hope.
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Joel HF Which is all the more reason that it shouldn't be an argument stopper in this case.
September 5 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Marie, your example is absurd. really.
September 5 at 11:09pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Which one?
September 5 at 11:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley Anyways, none of the quotes you've posted contradicts my position in any meaningful ways: they just place limits on the circumstances in which my claims apply.
September 5 at 11:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia catechuman on the way to baptism. that is the most cherry-picked of possible examples
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Marie Pitt-Payne But its true.
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Edward Langley--where did you get the invisible/visible church thing? The way you were using it seems much more like a protestant understanding to me.
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley St. Ambrose (?) references baptism of desire in connection with a catechumen who died in a shipwreck.
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but unhelpful because of the cherry-picked nature
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Again, it's a hazy recollection of the Baltimore Catechism.
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like
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Joel HF Michael--do you reject the doctrine of baptism by desire? (At least, in that exemplar case)
September 5 at 11:11pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne How is it unhelpful? Water is not necessary.
September 5 at 11:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and a stretch to go from that to unbaptized infants, simply
September 5 at 11:12pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But I think I've demonstrated that it follows from admitted propositions.
September 5 at 11:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes it is
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Joel HF I missed the demonstration.
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Marie Pitt-Payne An infant does not consent to Baptism. The parents do. So much so that if the parent does not have faith, the child is not baptized. This is standard pastoral practice.
September 5 at 11:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
September 5 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia again. YES IT IS
September 5 at 11:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley How does that jibe with the Church's long acceptance of baptism by blood and baptism of desire?
September 5 at 11:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Aren't canons de fide?
See Translation
September 5 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia to be fair, I'm not denying the *possibility* that others may receive the gift of sanctifying grace, but as John Ruplinger put it - that's a hope, not a believe
September 5 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne I see now why you think my example is absurd. Because you want to believe that God is - well.....
September 5 at 11:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yes, but one's understanding of them may not be de fide.
September 5 at 11:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia read canon 2 out loud to yourself
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Joel HF I think you have to accept the minimal cases of a chatechumen martyred for the faith, and also killed on the way to baptism. But I'm too lazy to go look up the texts.
September 5 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, Michael, I think that admission means that we hold the same position.
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Michael Beitia no, you universalist leaning people want to make exceptions into rules
September 5 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I explicitly denied that it was a rule.
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Michael Beitia then why talk about it? I think it is bad for evangelization
September 5 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia show of hands: converts?
September 5 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Because, for one thing, sounding ultra-rigorist about Baptism isn't good for evangelization either.
September 5 at 11:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why? It means I actually care about non-Catholics
September 5 at 11:18pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^Disagreed-Edward Langley
September 5 at 11:18pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia with me?
September 5 at 11:18pm · Like
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Joel HF No, Langley
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Michael Beitia good
September 5 at 11:19pm · Like
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Joel HF So who else besides me converted?
September 5 at 11:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia me
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Joel HF At TAC? (I converted in highschool.)
September 5 at 11:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes
September 5 at 11:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's one thing to be clear about Church doctrine. It's another thing to present the doctrine in a way that conveys the impression that we know what happens to people who haven't received Baptism of Water.
September 5 at 11:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is that "ordinary" know or "extraordinary" know
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Marie Pitt-Payne You are now claiming that the Catholic Church does not care about non-Catholics, since baptism of desire and blood are both mentioned in the Universal Catechism.... awesome...
September 5 at 11:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no Marie, that was a response to Ed's previous comment. I made no such claims
September 5 at 11:21pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne So - why won't the Church baptize a child whose parents have no faith?
September 5 at 11:21pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Ok
September 5 at 11:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley (One really odd case is the little boy Pius IX took from his jewish parents because he had been baptized. I don't really know all the details, or even if it actually happened, but it's an example that always gets brought up in similar situations).
September 5 at 11:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara
Edgardo Mortara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Edgardo Levi Mortara (Bologna, Papal States, August 27,...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 5 at 11:23pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley Pius IX's adopted son.
September 5 at 11:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hard cases make bad law?
September 5 at 11:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Now you're stealing my line.
September 5 at 11:24pm · Like
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Joel HF You should read Thomas Pink on religious liberty.
September 5 at 11:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne No. Hard cases help us understand reality.
September 5 at 11:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i might be pissed if i went to hell when folks were so nice
September 5 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Both are right, sides are right, Marie: but it's a general rule that hard cases should be left to the judge's prudence rather than codified in law.
September 5 at 11:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley The preaching must fit the preached to, John.
September 5 at 11:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia without pandering, however
September 5 at 11:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne What I am saying is that a homosexual activist couple who despise the Church but approach for baptism for their child (coming to a parish near you) would be denied - while the Church was examining the possibility that the daily Mass going parents who suffer a miscarriage after 3 excruciating weeks of bedrest may have obtained baptism by desire - and that seems utterly reasonable to me.
September 5 at 11:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I was once smashed over the head by a priest . . . .make it twice. I am forever grateful to him.
September 5 at 11:30pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Michael -- you misunderstand the anathema statement above. It is speaking of sacramental baptism. If you read it in that light, nothing that has been said about baptism of desire or blood is contrary.
September 5 at 11:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau I base that on my knowledge as an RCIA coordinator.
September 5 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger We jus do not know what happens to unbaptized infants. Never have. We do know that God is all just and merciful. Trust He knows what He is doing.
September 5 at 11:33pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Marie makes a good case. If the reason we baptize infants in the first place is because of the parents' faith, then it isn't much of a leap to say they also benefit from baptism of desire (at least in the case of children of parents of faith).
September 5 at 11:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But you are right to say we don't know definitively.
September 5 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but that is speculation and hope. . . . . not dogma. That is my point.
September 5 at 11:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Jody, what is non-sacramental Baptism?
September 5 at 11:37pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau By blood and desire. They are outside of the norm.
September 5 at 11:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.youtube.com/embed/RhT51tmUE0E?autoplay=1
You are all WEIRDOS!!
YOUTUBE.COM
September 5 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so.................. we're full circle
September 5 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Weirdos? What? Because we are discussing theology on a Friday night? Oh right. Maybe.
September 5 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I was baptized as an infant by my fallen away Catholic parents and raised as an atheist. I converted in 2004 at the age of 33. I am very glad I was baptized because I believe that the graces I received led me back to the Church. I realize that this is anecdotal, but the TNET is the only thing I've got going at the moment.
September 5 at 11:40pm · Like · 6
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Marie Pitt-Payne 98. When an infant is baptised, he or she cannot personally make a profession of faith. Rather, at that moment, the parents and the Church as a whole provide a context of faith for the sacramental action. Indeed, St Augustine teaches that it is the Church that presents a child for baptism.[132] The Church professes her faith and intercedes powerfully for the infant, supplying the act of faith that the infant is unable to make; again the bonds of communion, both natural and supernatural, are operative and manifest. If an unbaptised infant is incapable of a votum baptismi, then by the same bonds of communion the Church might be able to intercede for the infant and express a votum baptismi on his or her behalf that is effective before God. Moreover, the Church effectively does express in her liturgy just such a votum by the very charity towards all that is renewed in her in every celebration of the Eucharist.
September 5 at 11:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^not de fide?
September 5 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes! Aaron. What a blessing that you see it that way (I believe it to be true). But many are upset they can't celebrate the sacrament with their new awareness. They just don't get how without the grace latent in them, it might not have ever come to fruition.
September 5 at 11:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia CCC, right?
September 5 at 11:41pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What articles are de fide to you Michael?
September 5 at 11:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia CCC isn't, right?
September 5 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Or was that clarified earlier?
September 5 at 11:42pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne No - it's the study I was talking about that was taking place when I was in grad school, and it was closely related to our study of St. Thomas on the sacraments, so we looked at it.
September 5 at 11:42pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne We can agree that an infant does not make a personal profession of faith, right?
September 5 at 11:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course, with a caveat
September 5 at 11:43pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau CCC is certainly the teaching tradition of the Catholic Church. It can't be dismissed so easily.
September 5 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if it is at odds with de fide teaching. . .
September 5 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ok. I'll bite. Where?
September 5 at 11:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where what?
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Dang, I have a wedding program to print and fold yet.
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Where is the CCC at odds with de fide teaching?
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TNET admits of no other hobbies
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Daniel Lendman et al - re the earlier convo about top tier schools:
http://www.newrepublic.com/.../harvard-ivy-league-should...
The Trouble With Harvard
The Ivy League is broken and only standardized tests can fix it.
NEWREPUBLIC.COM
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And you'll need to quote both the CCC article and the de fide statement it is contradicting.
September 5 at 11:45pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne "Do you reject satan?" I do! Shouts the 6 day old baby...
September 5 at 11:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it isn't specifically, but I find people's quoting of CCC to support positions that contradict etc etc
September 5 at 11:46pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 10 years ago I heard about that study. It has been discussed for decades. Limbo for centuries. Trust that God really is good and it is all good. It is about Faith in Him.
September 5 at 11:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why did the Vatican publish the CCC?
September 5 at 11:47pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau To be optional teaching?
September 5 at 11:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beats me?
September 5 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau That was an invitation to read the intro.
September 5 at 11:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia busy with TNET
September 5 at 11:48pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne I had all my babies baptized within a week of being born - Teresa was baptized by Jeremy in the hospital because she was in danger of death. I'm really not a "free and easy with baptism or not" kinda gal... but I know that it is the parents who reject satan, and all his empty promises, and the glamour of evil, etc... on their child's behalf.
September 5 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my oldest was baptized in an NICU
September 5 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Jody, they did it to taunt TAC grads who they secretly know are holier and wiser than they are.
September 5 at 11:49pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau 11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church's Magisterium. It is intended to serve "as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries".15
12 This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God. Through the bishops, it is addressed to redactors of catechisms, to priests, and to catechists. It will also be useful reading for all other Christian faithful.
September 5 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Also find the part which says it should be considered the "norm"...
September 5 at 11:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Aaron, I don't profess to be holier or wiser than anyone (except Hitler)
September 5 at 11:51pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I knoooooooowwwwwww.
September 5 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Oh. I thought that was a shot across my bow
September 5 at 11:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am a displaced medieval. The Trent Catechism speaks better to my unupdated mode of thinking.
September 6 at 12:37am · Edited · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti It's hard to tell when the TNET is ready for goofing around
September 5 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But the Church is a living, breathing thing. One must be with the current flow of grace.
September 5 at 11:53pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Pope John Paul II ordered the publication of the Catechism by the Apostolic Constitution, Fidei Depositum, on October 11, 1992. An apostolic constitution is a most solemn form by which popes promulgate official Church documents. The new Code of Canon Law, for example, was promulgated by the Apostolic Constitution, Sacrae Disciplinae Leges. In Fidei Depositum, Pope John Paul II said, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." John Paul II also stated that the Catechism "is given as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine."
September 5 at 11:53pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia goofing around and seriousness are one on TNET
September 5 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau This thread couldn't have gotten this far without a little of both (goofing off and seriousness)
September 5 at 11:54pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti My rule of thumb is goofing around is appropriate if that Scott guy isn't around.
September 5 at 11:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peace out all y'alll
September 5 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I will, now that I have my drink
September 6 at 12:03am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti What is the longest break between comments ever on TNET? Is there a TNET archivist who can look this up?
September 6 at 12:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I worry if it goes over 1 hour.
September 6 at 12:05am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm 5,000 comments behind.
September 6 at 12:07am · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's generally not advisable to discern sacred Catholic mysteries without a trained guide, or to mix that subject with goofing on social media.
September 6 at 12:09am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So how many points is Michigan going to beat Notre Dame by tomorrow night?
September 6 at 12:09am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The CCC was written to present "an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition."
September 6 at 12:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger Just started the Trent Catechism 3 months ago. Aint anathemized. And it does have more in it . Are you suggesting it is in error?
September 6 at 12:12am · Like
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Edward Langley I think eighteen hours, Aaron (at least, that was the longest before 9,000)
September 6 at 12:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Above all, the CCC was published in support of the Pastoral principle of Charity: "The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love."
September 6 at 12:13am · Like
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Edward Langley By what authority was it promulgated, John?
September 6 at 12:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not think ensoulment is a doctrine of the Faith.
September 6 at 12:14am · Like
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John Ruplinger Has anyone read the Trent Catechism?
September 6 at 12:14am · Like
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Edward Langley I've referred to it before, but I haven't read it
September 6 at 12:15am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Parts of it. I recall it has something of the same structure as the CCC, the Credo, virtues, sacraments, etc... but I could be wrong.
September 6 at 12:15am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Delving into dogmatic theology I find is more satisfying than the Catechism, to my mind. It ties in philosophy and in a sense shows you the mind of the Church.
September 6 at 12:16am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Good night.
September 6 at 12:16am · Like
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John Kunz Daniel p. O'Connell we don't allow that kind of blasphemy on this page. Only the Catholic kind of blasphemy... No gold & blue blaspheming...
September 6 at 12:58am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Hail to the Victors!!!!
September 6 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill How's it going Kunz?
September 6 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://youtu.be/ZsHbCfgPA1c
Michigan vs Notre Dame "The Last 1:41"
Incredible Michigan win
YOUTUBE.COM
September 6 at 1:23am · Like
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Jeff Neill Kunz, I've had enough of your crap for the evening; that's it, I'm done; I'm going to bed.
September 6 at 1:25am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, thank you for the article. I thought it well balanced and interesting.
September 6 at 2:09am · Like
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John Kunz Well....ok Jeff
September 6 at 2:28am · Like
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John Kunz (Doing great, Jeff!!! You?)
September 6 at 2:28am · Like · 1
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John Kunz I remember that bs oconnell...preeeeety generous spot off that 3&2 qb draw... Haha that was amazing....
September 6 at 2:40am · Like
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Pater Edmund Interesting book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/825788.Shi_i_Islam
September 6 at 2:51am · Like
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Pater Edmund Another interesting book: http://cuapress.cua.edu/.../books/frontmatter/TACE.pdf
September 6 at 2:52am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Relevant to the ensoulment Q, one of those “outrageously provocative Bolin theses:” https://drive.google.com/.../0B1NKBnJwd.../edit...
And Man Became a Living Being.pdf - Google Drive
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
September 6 at 3:24am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Bolin's position is a rather extreme form of my own.
September 6 at 4:00am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Thanks pe, I got through 4 pages before I couldn't press the next page button on my phone. I'll have to read it on a computer. I like his approach but I haven't reached a point where there is a clear statement that in generation whether ensoulment is necessitated by the arrangement of parts.
September 6 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I can't believe I missed being in class with a Bolin. I think there were three there representing three different classes my Junior year....
September 6 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill (Doing awesome! John... I've been keeping track of you via my spy network)
September 6 at 10:51am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I came across a copy of the monthly budget of F. Scott Fitzgerald and his wife Zelda from their Paris days. It has three interesting line items:
1) Flowers $15
2) Wild parties: $90
3) Leisure: $8
Could we plot these items on a graph to show the relationship between leisure and wild parties? Are flowers a variable? Probably not.
September 6 at 11:17am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Peter Edmund, I wonder what the Dominican or Church's position is on ensoulment. It seems to me there is no Catholic doctrine on ensoulment; but there is on Conception, ie. the Immaculate Conception. Is this accurate? I also find it disturbing when human cloning is used to support the "theory" of ensoulment -- this seems imprudent because it cites unethical science (human cloning) to support a theory and, in so doing, serves as a kind of support for unethical human cloning.
September 6 at 12:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, it isn't support for unethical science, more than a recognition that unethical science exists and forces us to reconsider the metaphysical implications of the physical world around us, in this case re: fertilization.
I don't think any Catholic on this thread would deny the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, but the Church in her wisdom hasn't set exact dates/times because this is a spiritual dogma, not one of biology
September 6 at 1:01pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Pater Edmund, I am not sure if you had the chance to see the previous citation on human cloning posted by Edward Langley, but the gist of the article was that a natural identical twin and a human clone were the same thing. Do you think this citation, and the way it was presented, forced consideration of metaphysical implcations of "fertilization" or had any bearing on the discussion, or would you regard it as contentious? Thomas often cites unethical claims, but to refute them in classical dialectic context.
I am not sure how capable some TAC alum are of discussing these issues.
The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from "the first **moment** of her conception..." Hence, there does clearly seem to be a direct reference to time in the Dogma.
September 6 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John Ruplinger--Here at long last is a response to your fascinating posts on Virgil many days ago. (I apologize for taking so long to comment, but the start of school has kept me away from the Great Thread.)
You asked the following questions about Aeneas' sacrifice of Turnus: "Is he sacrificing to Pallas or rather sacrificing in Pallas' name to Pallas' FATHER and to that patria of Pallas that might have been or perhaps rather to Aeneas' future patria, Rome that will become?" I would agree with the last two suggestions, and especially with what you state immediately after your series of questions: "To put it precisely, Aeneas acting as Pallas is sacrificing in Roman custom Turnus, prince captive and chief spoil, to his father and the fatherland." But you and I would appear to differ concerning the justice of this sacrifice. I think Virgil wholeheartedly approves of it, whereas you argue that he may have had grave reservations.
Concerning the phrase that describes Aeneas' founding act, the planting of his sword in Turnus (ferrum adverso sub pectore condi), we both agree, I think, that it refers to the opening lines “dum conderet urbem” and Aeneas' duty to found Rome. But why sub pectore? There is a line in the last book of the Aeneid that may help make sense of this. When Virgil presents us with the alternating scenes of Turnus' and Aeneas' deeds (XII 675, 707), which culminate in their fateful meeting, Virgil recounts the death of Rutulian Sucro, who is killed when Aeneas "plunges his naked sword there where the end is quickest: right through the ribs, the grating of the chest" (XII 683-685). Virgil had earlier in Book X described Aeneas' killing of Liger as follows: "Then with his sword, he opened Liger's breast, in which the spirit has its hiding place" (X 826-827). Hence, Aeneaus gives Turnus the quickest death, suggesting it is not about personal revenge driven by wrath. Remember, too, that Aeneas is employing what Virgil has earlier called "the sword that deals out fate" (VIII 804). Given Virgil's reference to the place where the spirit hides, I would agree with your suggestion that Aeneas is also slaying the spirit of Turnus, though you and I may disagree about what that spirit is.
Certainly Aeneas' anger is intense when he slays Turnus, but it seems to me to be Virgil's depiction of the pious anger that accompanied Rome's founding. The anger, we both agree, comes upon Aeneas when he sees the belt of Pallas. Here I think your analysis is missing a key component. Depicted on the belt of Pallas is not the slaughter of just any fifty youths. The crucial passage that reveals the identity of these youths comes from Book II when the fall of Troy is recounted: "And I myself saw Neoptolemus, insane with blood, and both of Atreus' sons upon the threshold. I saw Hecuba together with her hundred daughters, and among the altars I could see King Priam, polluting with his blood the fires he himself had hallowed. And the fifty bridal chambers that had such hopes of sons of sons, the doors that once had stood so proud with booty and with barbaric gold lie on the ground. What fire cannot do, the Danaans can" (II 669-679). The fifty youths depicted on the belt of Pallas are the future of Troy, that is, the future of Rome. And note that it is the son of Achilles, Neoptolemus, who commits this outrage and who is later resurrected as Turnus himself, the new Achilles, who hubristically bears on his very person this horror of horrors as a trophy of war. For Virgil, the personal glory of Achilles, such as is was, reaches its nadir in the evil act of his son, who, but for the will of Jupiter, would have ended Rome before it began. Roman clemency, which you rightly point out is advocated by Aeneas' father as the future policy of Roman expansion, cannot be exercised here toward Turnus whose wearing of this belt signifies all that would stand in the way of Jupiter's plan to establish the right order of eternal Rome.
That is all I can address for now, but hopefully some of the above will be worth your consideration.
September 6 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg In other words, I do not think St. Thomas would have cited unethical research on human cloning to score a cheap contentious point for Aristotle's flawed view of "ensoulment"; though Thomas and the Dominicans did deny the Immaculate Conception because of their doctrine of ensoulment.
September 6 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Out of faith, science?
I would not use the wording of dogma of the IM to ignore the topic of discussion.
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Scott Weinberg I know you do not like dogma at TAC, but that is sophistry, which leads to a corruption of faith and science. I introduced the topic, Mr. Neill, as the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, because it is worthy of contemplation; not so that others would bring up human cloning to support the claim that ensoulment is scientific. Is it also not true that Thomas erred in this Dogma due to his adherence to Aristotle's notion of ensoulment.
September 6 at 2:14pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Thanks. Jeffrey. That is helpful. Interesting that the depiction is not clear. I will certainly concede that the poet is at least ambiguous. Still can't detach it as a foreshadowing of Romulus. Thanks again.
September 6 at 2:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Bolins do have an elegant manner of asserting provocative topics, who are we to refuse discussion?
September 6 at 2:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, that cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes doesn't necessitate that they be ethically identical: as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and IVF, but that doesn't justify the latter.
September 6 at 2:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That reference makes more sense.
September 6 at 2:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, you were using human cloning to support ensoulment which is a cheap contention. Plus, no one knows human cloning and identical "twinning" are the same. In fact, "twinning" is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from another. So, you do not know what you are talking about.
September 6 at 2:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^This argument doesn't follow.
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Edward Langley And Scott, your arguments here are inappropriate to the dignity of church doctrine: in a hundred years, people who argue like you might be cited as "the second Galileo affair"
September 6 at 2:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unless I am missing several premises.
September 6 at 2:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Not helpful.
September 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Whatever you say, Daniel. Talk to you sophists and gnostics later.
September 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which argument, Daniel?
September 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott's argument that concluded with you not knowing what you are talking about doesn't follow.
September 6 at 2:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Your contention that he should be associated with something like "the second Galileo affair" isn't helpful.
September 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am interested in knowing why this would be the case: "Plus, no one knows human cloning and identical "twinning" are the same. In fact, "twinning" is a flawed notion which implies one is twined from another."
Why don't we know this.
September 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pardon me if I am a victim of 'pop science."
September 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This seems like a reasonable argument to me, Edward: "that cloning and twinning involve similar biological processes doesn't necessitate that they be ethically identical: as I mentioned earlier there is little to no difference biologically between normal generation and IVF, but that doesn't justify the latter."
September 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think it is. St. Thomas always is concerned about the irrisio infidelium and Augustine shows us how important it is to show the complementarity of doctrine and natural science.
September 6 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It sounds like you are supporting Aristotle's theory of ensoulment because human clones and identical twins are the same. This is laughable.
Facts are stubborn things.
FACT: Mary was free from Original Sin -- body and soul -- from the *moment* of her conception.
FACT: Thomas opposed this dogma because of Aristotle's notion of ensoulment.
September 6 at 2:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Cell division, replication and twinning are surprisingly similar. When one results in more cells vs. separate being is a wonderful topic for study.
September 6 at 2:23pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am not sure that that account of Thomas' rejection of the IC is sufficient. But let it be, for now.
Regardless, does the Church's account of conception necessarily align with a biological definition?
September 6 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia FACT: Mary was free from Original Sin from the moment of her conception. In her soul, not body.
FACT: calling something laughable isn't reasoning
September 6 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg O, Mary, conceived without soul, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
September 6 at 2:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, are you being intentionally obtuse?
September 6 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isn't the definition of conception something worth considering?
September 6 at 2:39pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Mr. Beitia, I cannot imagine that even you would claim in jest that Mary, Mother of God, was Immaculately Conceived only in her soul, but not Her body. If this is what you are claiming, you are in error, and I sincerely urge you, in good faith, as a brother in Our Lord, to seek counsel from a holy priest on this matter.
September 6 at 2:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Only the soul suffered in the fall, not the body.
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Daniel Lendman ^Not true.
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Michael Beitia I tried, Daniel. I wrote something to the effect that fertilization is the biological act whereby the two gametes become one "thing" whereas conception is the activity of God in each human's particular creation
September 6 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Sure it is
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Daniel Lendman Scott is right to say that the effects of original sin affected both soul and body.
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Daniel Lendman Why?
September 6 at 2:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Nope, just the soul
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Michael Beitia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary 'in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt…
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 6 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Because persons sin, not souls.
September 6 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Prayer of the Novena of the Immaculate Conception
Immaculate Virgin Mary, you were pleasing in the sight of God from the first moment of your conception in the womb of your mother, St. Anne. You were chose to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I believe the teaching of holy Mother the Church, that in the first instant of your conception, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human and beloved Son, you were preserved from all stain of original sin. I thank God for this wonderful privilege and grace he bestowed upon you as I honor your Immaculate Conception.
Look graciously upon me as I implore this special favor: (mention your request).
Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother, from your throne in heaven turn your eyes of pity upon me. Filled with confidence in your goodness and power, I beg you to help me in this journey of life which is so full of dangers for my soul. I entrust myself entirely to you, that I may never be the slave of the devil through sin, but may always live a humble and pure life. I consecrate myself to you forever, for my only desire is to love your divine Son Jesus. Mary, since none of your devout servants has perished, May I too be saved. Amen.
September 6 at 2:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, then why do you die?
September 6 at 2:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Spiritually or physically?
September 6 at 2:43pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Wait - pardon me?
How do you account for the Blessed Virgin's perpetual virginity (before, during, after Christ's birth) and miraculous birth if sin somehow tainted her body?
September 6 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, I was speaking of physically.
September 6 at 2:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Because we are not aveternal beings, physical death is in our nature
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Michael Beitia She suffered the effects of the fall, hunger , weariness, pain etc
September 6 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think anyone was saying that sin tainted the Virgin's body.
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
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Daniel Lendman Man was not supposed to die.
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Marie Pitt-Payne What is Michael saying then?
September 6 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Since by man came death."
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Daniel Lendman That is, by man's sin.
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Jeff Neill Animals suffer pain, but they did not suffer the fall, pain is essential in bodily function
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Michael Beitia I'm saying the BVM got hungry.
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Jeff Neill Pain existed prior to the fall
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Michael Beitia and was sad sometimes
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Jeff Neill And she could feel pain
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Jeff Neill And suffer
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Daniel Lendman ^yep.
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Daniel Lendman But not because of sin in her flesh.
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Jeff Neill Christ could feel pain too
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Marie Pitt-Payne No - you said she was free from original sin in her soul, not her body
September 6 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Of course Christ could feel pain.
September 6 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No one is arguing against that.
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Daniel Lendman We are talking about the effects of original sin.
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Jeff Neill Good. Then the fall was not physical, this does not deny that miraculous acts may happen
September 6 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 6 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know what you are saying.
September 6 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman My point is that persons sin, not souls. Persons are body and soul.
September 6 at 2:47pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Mary was preserved from sin, body and soul:
"The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body. "
September 6 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes that's what I said. What I mean is that She was preserved from original sin, it wasn't taken away. Her soul didn't suffer the effects of original sin, but her body did. THat's it
September 6 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^That is true.
September 6 at 2:48pm · Like
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Angela Lessard The Church teaches both that all of creation fell in some way, and that though Mary and Jesus were without sin in body and soul, they suffered the effects of a fallen world.
September 6 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Pain in childbirth?
September 6 at 2:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unfallen in a fallen world.
September 6 at 2:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I was saying that the body does not suffer in the fall
September 6 at 2:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes it does.
September 6 at 2:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yup totally natural to have pain
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Daniel Lendman ^Not death.
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Daniel Lendman ^Not disease.
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Marie Pitt-Payne No - no - no. Virgin birth. Dogma.
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Michael Beitia Marie, IDK. All I know is that she was virgin perpetually
September 6 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne "like light through glass"
September 6 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I argue for pain and all existed prefall
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Daniel Lendman ^Unlikely.
September 6 at 2:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But death for humans certainly only came through the fall.
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Jeff Neill I like to believe physics pre and post fall are the same
September 6 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes. Rational souls are immortal and joined to bodies
September 6 at 2:50pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Dogma of perpetual virginity = virgin before DURING and after birth.
Christ passed through her miraculously - like light through glass.
September 6 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Spiritual death
September 6 at 2:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Physical death
September 6 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Marie, are you denying that the BVM suffered physically?
September 6 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yup I believe physical death would have occurred if the fall didn't
September 6 at 2:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia at any time?
September 6 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill That which has a beginning has an end
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Daniel Lendman I am pretty sure that position is condemned.
September 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Possibly... At any time accidents happen
September 6 at 2:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz? Do you know?
September 6 at 2:53pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I am saying that pain in childbirth is one of the curses of the Fall - as is death. See Genesis 3:12 on. And it is a dogma that Mary bore Christ miraculously - that she maintained her virginity before, during and after birth.
September 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Daniel:
. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.
September 6 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but giving birth isn't the same as intercourse (technically)
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Where is that from?
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill How about: since death is necessary (since all things that start stop) that the fall was necessary and unavoidable, since it is not possible to exist perpetually
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Trent.
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^true.
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Thanks
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Correct - it is not. She remained "physically intact" (impossible during normal childbirth)
September 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Genesis is not to be read literally
September 6 at 2:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is possible to exist perpetually. Just as my soul and the Blessed Virgin.
September 6 at 2:56pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Jeff - I know how to read Genesis.
September 6 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not saying, nor have I on this said that the birth of Christ was like the birth of mine - or your children.
September 6 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If by, "not to be read literally" you mean, the first several chapters are not to be read as though a precise history, then we are agreed.
September 6 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but the BVM suffered the effects of original sin, in the world, in her body.
She got tired. and sad.
September 6 at 2:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I read the first several chapters of Genesis literally as in the genre of myths.
September 6 at 2:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Is her existence now the same as it was on earth?
September 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think Marie and I are just trying to make sure that we are clear that the origin of her bodily suffering is not through her.
September 6 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia of course not
September 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Does Mary have a metabolism still?
September 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, Mary's existence now is a glorified existence.
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Daniel Lendman If she wants to, probably.
September 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Christ ate fish.
September 6 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman and bread
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Daniel Lendman after he was in his glorified state.
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Daniel Lendman Mary could too.
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Daniel Lendman She just doesn't need to.
September 6 at 3:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Could or needs to?
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Being glorified and all.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ah
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Could.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman As I said.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So, before the fall did we need to eat?
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We did need to eat.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Data is nt infinitely fast forgive slow replys
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "Physically intact" what absurdity. Who cares if Mary had an intact hymen?
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Before the fall man was not glorified.
September 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Through Christ we are glorified.
September 6 at 3:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I do, Samantha Cohoe.
September 6 at 3:02pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Genesis is not "myth" technically - the language is figurative.
September 6 at 3:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It further reveals something about her virginity and the birth of Christ.
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Daniel Lendman Marie. I would consider it in the genre of myth.
September 6 at 3:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia somebody bust out some St. Augustine
September 6 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's weird.
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Daniel Lendman I would also consider it true.
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Daniel Lendman Fair enough.
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Michael Beitia http://college.holycross.edu/.../Augustine-Genesis1.pdf
September 6 at 3:03pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne It's not myth. The Catechism is explicit in that regard. I'll find the citation.
September 6 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If by myth one means something that is inherently not true, then no.
September 6 at 3:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia obviously.
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Samantha Cohoe It's irrelevant to her virginity and makes the birth of Christ cartoonish
September 6 at 3:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or understanding, using figures and images in order to explain the current state of things, then yes it is in the genre of myth.
September 6 at 3:05pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne What is irrelevant?
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Daniel Lendman Ancients considered an intact hymen to be essential to virginity.
September 6 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe This "physically intact" nonsense
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Daniel Lendman Well, you call it that.
September 6 at 3:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I don't see why it must be nonsense.
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Daniel Lendman Or cartoonish.
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Marie Pitt-Payne Well - that "nonsense" is dogma.
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Daniel Lendman Certainly Christ had the power to pass through material barriers.
September 6 at 3:08pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Without disrupting said barriers.
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Jeff Neill Chapter 20 and 21 of that work by Augustine.... Let it nourish your soul, but don't try to replace science. (Extreme paraphrase)
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Marie Pitt-Payne He also chooses to "hide" under the appearance of bread....
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Marie Pitt-Payne Without Faith, Catholicism is ridiculous. With Faith, it is astounding.
September 6 at 3:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Wasn't Augustine speculating on Genesis by his admission?
September 6 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, Scott was right when he said that the BVM was immaculately conceived in soul and body. She was conceived (whenever that happens) as a person, immaculately. Thus the Church has defined.
September 6 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Genesis is allegorical, certainly. For example - the use of the word "days"... the sun is created on day 4. We are obviously not talking about 24 hour periods. However, it is not "myth".
CCC - "289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. the inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. Read in the light of Christ, within the unity of Sacred Scripture and in the living Tradition of the Church, these texts remain the principal source for catechesis on the mysteries of the "beginning": creation, fall, and promise of salvation."
Note - it says "the truths of creation". That is not an accidental use of the term at all. Read the CCC on the 4 senses of scripture and different literary forms.
September 6 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ancients were confused
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Daniel Lendman Possibly.
September 6 at 3:14pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne And moderns are so enlightened
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Daniel Lendman Or perhaps they had a valuable insight into something.
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Samantha Cohoe Like what exactly?
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John Ruplinger Moderns aren't confused. We now believe in evolution.
September 6 at 3:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like the fact that God is interested in using physical signs, even if gratuitous.
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Daniel Lendman There was no need for them to define things thus.
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Jeff Neill And nowhere does any modern believe that rationally souled people live forever.
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Samantha Cohoe With regard to the moral value of intact hymens, marie, moderns have a better read on things, yes.
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Daniel Lendman But God is interested in signs.
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, you are wrong.
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Daniel Lendman The Blessed Virgin lives forever.
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Jeff Neill Oh?
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, that seems true.
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Daniel Lendman Rational beings were never intended to die.
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Samantha Cohoe That is general to the point of meaninglessness
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Daniel Lendman This is the clear teaching of the church.
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Daniel Lendman It is important.
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Jeff Neill Yes... The subject may also be a how, which we don't understand
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe, it is very important.
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Samantha Cohoe "God is interested in signs" I mean
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Daniel Lendman Especially since Sacraments are signs.
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John Ruplinger "may have had" - is that a dogmatic expression?
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Daniel Lendman Sacraments.
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Marie Pitt-Payne Moral value of intact hymens? You are missing the whole point, Samantha. It is not a moral statement.
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Samantha Cohoe An untorn membrane is morally insignificant
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Daniel Lendman usually, yes.
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Daniel Lendman But not necessarily.
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Daniel Lendman Physical things are perhaps inadequate signs of spiritual realities. Nevertheless, God uses them. Often.
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Samantha Cohoe To say that an intact hymen is an essential part of virginity is to endow it was with moral significance
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Michael Beitia Daniel, Scott intended by saying that the BVM was conceived immaculately in body and soul was to say that conception and fertilization are the same. and in that respect he isn't necessarily correct, which is why I originally disagreed with him.
September 6 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Things to do. Peace out.
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Daniel Lendman Yes, Samantha. But that is not what I am saying.
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Daniel Lendman I see, Michael.
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Marie Pitt-Payne No Samantha. It is a necessary sign to show that the Incarnation was entirely God's initiative. You are reading some 21st century angst into this. "Mary’s virginity manifests God’s absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. “He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed.… He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures.”
Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 127). Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference.
September 6 at 3:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and then you read my disagreement ahistorically. jerk
September 6 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger In what way is the story of Adam and Eve mythical? In what way is the story of Evolution a foundational myth?
September 6 at 3:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger discuss.
September 6 at 3:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Quia igitur virginitas dicitur per remotionem praedictae corruptionis, consequens est quod integritas membri corporalis per accidens se habeat ad virginitatem. Ipsa autem immunitas a delectatione quae consistit in seminis resolutione, se habet materialiter. Ipsum autem propositum perpetuo abstinendi a tali delectatione se habet formaliter et completive in virginitate."
September 6 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Please don't use the word "myth". Modernists use it to question the historical veracity of creation and the fall.
There are three ways to look at Genesis:
Fundamentalist interpretation: historical and literal.
Catholic interpretation: historical but symbolic rather than literal.
Modernist interpretation: nonhistorical and nonliteral.
September 6 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley IIª-IIae, q. 152 a. 1 co
September 6 at 3:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley (note _per accidens_ doesn't mean "unrelated" but means "not essential".)
September 6 at 3:39pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley ST IIª-IIae, q. 152 a. 1 ad 2: "Ad secundum dicendum quod pudicitia est quidem essentialiter in anima, materialiter autem in carne, et similiter virginitas. Unde Augustinus dicit, in libro de Virginit., quod licet virginitas in carne servetur, ac per hoc corporalis sit, tamen spiritualis est quam vovet et servat continentia pietatis."
September 6 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger What is mythos? What parts are mythical? Is it possibly nonmythical: can it be explained as historical and allegorical? Why is that an impossibility? Is that what Marie means?
September 6 at 3:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger written before Marie posted. But people mean these terms different ways.
September 6 at 3:44pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne It is historical and allegorical. That is the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium. These events: creation of human beings in the image of God, male and female, temptation, the original sin, the Fall, the curse of the Fall, the protoevangelium - all took place at a moment in human history - but the language describing these events (a tree... fruit... a serpent) are allegorical ways of expressing what actually happened.
September 6 at 3:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I cannot read Genesis as creation myths. It is much unlike the other myths. Even with what modern science knows it can be understood historical. None can prove that men did not live so long. Much of paleontology is . . . . .problematic
September 6 at 3:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley The biggest problem with interpreting Genesis as a strict history. is that there are two different orders of creation listed. That, and Augustine never treats it as a strict history.
September 6 at 3:50pm · Like · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne What does "strict" history mean?
September 6 at 3:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I take the tree as historical and symbolic as well. The fruit too. We are such literalist that we cant imagind that God can use real things as symbols. . . .
September 6 at 3:52pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne The catechism says that the tree represents the limits of man as a creature - limits he/she is not meant to transgress.
September 6 at 3:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Augustine was speculating. He said so, no?
September 6 at 3:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, but he is basically the master of Western biblical interpretation.
September 6 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne I still don't know what "strict" history means. If we are talking "7 24 hour periods" then certainly it is not "strict". As I said before, the sun is not created until the 4th day.
Read Scott Hahn's explanation of the 1st creation account - realms and rulers, building the temple of the universe. Ratzinger's commentary on Genesis "In the Beginning..." is also excellent.
September 6 at 3:55pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Augustine wrote three works titled "on the literal interpretation of genesis" once early in life, mid and late life, all end with figurative reading necessary. But the real topic is to discuss biology and physics pre-fall, my understanding is the world is the same and the nature of the soul changed.
September 6 at 3:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, that's not sufficient: the first creation account makes man last but the second creation account has man made first and all the creatures made and brought to him to be named.
September 6 at 3:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, even if all "strict history" means is "gets the order right", which order is correct is a matter of interpretation.
September 6 at 3:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Therefore both cannot be literal
September 6 at 3:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It doesn't matter much since paleontology can fill the gaps of knowledge
September 6 at 3:58pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne The two different creation accounts are emphasizing different things.
First account speaks of the temple of creation, with worship as the goal in day 7. Man is the finale - the high point. Second account deals with creation, male and female, the fall.... both contain truths - but different truths about different things.
September 6 at 3:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley As far as the biblical text goes, creation could have been instantaneous an each account symbolizes the orders in creation via temporal imagery.
September 6 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Correct.
September 6 at 4:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't quite agree with Hahn. Parts don't seem literal and that is fine. But the tree is connected to the cross perhaps literally.
September 6 at 4:02pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Have you read Hahn?
September 6 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I defined myth very clearly above.
September 6 at 4:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think my account of myth has been around a lot longer than the modern notion.
September 6 at 4:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger missed it DL. Sorry.
September 6 at 4:04pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne http://www.scotthahn.com/download/attachment/3350
This is not Hahn himself, but we used this text.
September 6 at 4:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "If by myth one means a story that is meant to explain things that are beyond human experience or understanding, using figures and images in order to explain the current state of things, then yes it is in the genre of myth."\
September 6 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne But that is a big "if" - and not how the term is commonly used by biblical scholars.
September 6 at 4:06pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I also believe that mans rational nature is to be naked and habit (clothing) is essential to the works of a rational creature. Thus the 10th category is preserved prior to the fall
September 6 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Actually, I am pretty sure that many biblical scholars would use the term that way.
September 6 at 4:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Let me suggest that God wrote Genesis in a mode that is easy for all men to grasp. That no man could grasp the how as is pointed out in Job and elsewhere. I dont buy the primitive man myth.
September 6 at 4:08pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Perhaps Biblical scholars who are inappropriately utilizing a historical critical hermeneutic...
September 6 at 4:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That is not a fair argument.
September 6 at 4:09pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne ?
September 6 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I like that def. DL. And read too hasty.
September 6 at 4:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson My recent status also applies to The Never Ending Thread.
Without TNET, like marriage, one is lonely. With TNET, like marriage, one is annoyed.
September 6 at 4:10pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman That is just an ad hominem.
September 6 at 4:10pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I don't know any good Biblical scholars who would use the word "myth" when interpreting Genesis.
September 6 at 4:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, now you do.
September 6 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Maybe... but I haven't read any of your work, so I don't know.
September 6 at 4:12pm · Like
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Vincent Terreri I hope you think this is apropos: I don't think we should ever approach the sacred Text as a work of literature. There's too much reverence lost as soon as you start dividing the Text by genre and literary tradition. That's just my thought.
September 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I'm not trying to make an ad hominem argument. I just think using "myth" in this climate is extraordinarily unwise. You may disagree. That's fine.
September 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The account of myth that I gave above is very much inspired by research that I have done in this area. Jacques Maritain gives a good account of the use of myth in his "Degrees of Knowledge."
September 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Joel Morehouse Because one should read the Psalms exactly the same way that one reads Chronicles?
September 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Marie, I think, in general you are right.
September 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would not typically use the term among the uneducated or if I were unable to explain myself clearly.
September 6 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nevertheless, I think the term is helpful.
September 6 at 4:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Dr. Peterson, I'm getting wife heat for spending time on this thread... Do you have anything you can prescribe?
September 6 at 4:17pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Vincent, I think when approaching the Scriptures we must remember that it is the Word of God and word of man.
September 6 at 4:17pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Vincent Terreri - your point is well taken. The Primary Author in the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth. The literary styles of the secondary, inspired human authors are important, though, I think - because Magisterial teaching says so, and we must discern the literal meaning before the spiritual... but often, genres are used to try to undermine inerrancy and inspiration.
September 6 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But to be fair DL, many scholars even do not mean by myth what you mean. A different word than mythos might be more fitting.
September 6 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger late again
September 6 at 4:19pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps, John, but I have not found it.
September 6 at 4:19pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell 15,014 not bad guys (and gals).
September 6 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne The main thing to keep in mind is that we read Scripture as a Canonical whole with one Primary Author. That is where typology comes in to play. Otherwise, typology would be impossible. But awareness of genres is helpful because we are not fundamentalists.
September 6 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne And it is the Primary Author who inspires the human authors to write everything He wanted written and nothing more. (According to Dei Verbum)
September 6 at 4:21pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Signing off, folks. Thank you for the interesting discussion. God bless.
September 6 at 4:22pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill: take long breaks from TNET and make sure she knows it.
Then return. Rinse. Repeat. Your experience will be more satisfying and you will keep the heat off.
Have faith that TNET will still be here and you will be rewarded for that faith.
Just remember to tag others into TNET each time you visit. Go forth and multiply.
September 6 at 4:25pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I didn't say biblical scholars. There is a lot of confusion.
September 6 at 4:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yeah. And St. Paul uses the word mythos or fabulas to signify false tales as opposed to true doctrine. Some big guns got my back.
September 6 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger not just false doctrine but kids stories . . . . . . evolution anyone. How was Adam not the most intelligent even after the fall?
September 6 at 4:33pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I often don't pay attention: but are people calling evolution a myth?!?
September 6 at 4:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Just me. . . . you heard it here first on TNET.
September 6 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I second that motion.
September 6 at 4:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What sort of fundies are y'all? No such thing? A century and a half of thousands of scientific conspirators? Set species just poofed into existence and don't change into other species ever? Young earthers too?
September 6 at 4:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Bam.
September 6 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Brian Gerrity Hmm...When you say evolution is a myth, are you positing strict creationism as the truth (e.g., 6,000 year old earth, etc.) or are you referring to the evolution of man from an irrational animal as a myth? The former position is shaky at best, IMO, but I take no issue with the latter.
September 6 at 4:48pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond A "scientific" falsehood that lasts a century and a half is a relatively short one, no?
September 6 at 4:51pm · Edited · Like
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Brian Gerrity For what it is worth, I find the concept of material creation unfolding over millions or billions of years, with man as the end, or crowning achievement, to be fascinating.
September 6 at 4:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ptolemy may have been wrong, but I wouldn't call his system a falsehood.
I'm not sure what you think is false though: genetics, paleontology, astronomy, biology, etc.? All of the above? The very idea of evolution? Our multifaceted approach to determining the chronology of the universe? Our analysis of genetics and bones and what used to be here on the earth? Etc.
September 6 at 4:54pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger And the majority of scientists have never been wrong before. But the truth is many evolutionary scientists have given up on the theory. The difficulties are too great. Kolbe Creation has good work on this.
September 6 at 4:53pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I find material creation unfolding over millions or billions of years into something evolutionarily more advanced to be inconceivable. It doesn't match with my experience. Things seem to devolve more than advance. And where are the half species? The ones on their way to being advanced?
September 6 at 4:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The truth is that cutting edge evolutionary theorists admit they don't have the mechanics sorted out. They don't abandon the facts on the ground.
September 6 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't buy the pseudo-Dekoninck "evolution is demonstrable" claim but I do think it's at least as worthy of belief as the crystalline spheres were to St. Thomas.
September 6 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Brian Gerrity Things advance at their genesis and earlier stages, devolve later. But that doesn't preclude continued evolvement in nature even as other parts of it devolve.
September 6 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm unclear as to why slow development is hard to accept while poofing specific species into existence is easy to accept. But really, I find it hard to believe anyone looking past fringe works written to the choir would not accept that our multiple methods of dating and what we've found of the past have changed our understanding of the universe, at the very least roughly speaking.
September 6 at 4:59pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson No, that is not the truth.
September 6 at 5:01pm · Like
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Brian Gerrity So because something is difficult, it is false?
September 6 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger post got messed up there
September 6 at 5:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They are becoming less doctrinaire and moving into much more interesting territory that increasingly tends to stop short of the old, asinine "evolution contradicts teleology" routine, however. And they are looking into much more interesting territory that transcends ye olde natural selection.
September 6 at 5:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Insurmountable difficulties. But evolution is a religious tenet to question which will get you relegated to the fringe. Nice the way it works out. But de Chardin types. Well that's ok.
September 6 at 5:06pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wait until Scott gets back on here. This is one of his pet peeves with TAC.
September 6 at 5:08pm · Unlike · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau They won't allow Hugh Owen (Kolbe Centre) to speak on campus.
September 6 at 5:08pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But I think Hugh has some significant things to say both scientifically and theologically.
September 6 at 5:09pm · Like
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Brian Gerrity As a recovering creationist, my observation is that much of Christianity is wary of any thought system related to evolution as it was successfully utilized in the past by others as a means to discredit the existence of the Divine. And it was done in a totalitarian fashion.
September 6 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Evolution is one of the major dividing questions at TAC.
September 6 at 5:10pm · Like · 3
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Brian Gerrity It's right up there with democracy vs. monarchy.
September 6 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I was shocked and scandalized by Warren Murray's take on it (God just decided to infuse a human soul into the fetus of an ape). But was surprised to hear that most tutors on campus find that to be a good theory. Seriously? Even if Genesis isn't literal, that isn't even in the spirit of the story.
September 6 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau That doesn't address why there was 1 set of first parents (which we must hold). And frankly yes, I'd find it more dignified that a fully formed human adult came from mud than that the first parent was an ape.
September 6 at 5:13pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I dunno, that is generally taken to be a decent theory
September 6 at 5:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, the first couple is a particular and science is not of particulars.
September 6 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (are particulars)
September 6 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau The base argument was that 'creation doesn't take leaps' -- but the reality is that God does. Incarnation is a great example of a leap.
September 6 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau How do you account for death before the Fall?
September 6 at 5:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley The only thing we're required to believe is that man had a preternatural gift of immortality before the fall.
September 6 at 5:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley There's a place, I kinda remember, where St. Thomas seems to indicate that animals killed each other before the fall.
September 6 at 5:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In any case it is an hypothesis at best, one that doesn't interest me much but is treated as truth (much as Galileo held his opinions).
September 6 at 5:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Often, the best we can do is a likely story: cf. the crystalline spheres.
September 6 at 5:21pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau off to a wedding. But I trust you to carry on.
September 6 at 5:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Do y'all hate your bodies and their obvious similarities to animals and primates? Rational animals.
I think Hugh is a well intentioned guy, but I'm glad that don't allow him to speak on campus. It's simply head in the sand nuttery to dismiss all of modern science and hold to young earther dogma.
September 6 at 5:23pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I do think they could or should have Hugh on campus in the context of a debate. That'd be healthy.
September 6 at 5:25pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Problem with infusing a soul in an ape fetus is that ape fetus matter is not proportionate to a rational soul.
September 6 at 5:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Whaaa...
September 6 at 5:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Then, if you say that God proportioned the matter to the soul then you might as well say that it was from mud, or slime because that iss just as easy for God to do.
September 6 at 5:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, because that would be ignoring the evidence.
September 6 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Science is of universals, we don't have evidence of the generation of the first couple.
September 6 at 5:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Mind you, I have no real problems with evolution in many respects, but certainly in the case of humans it is insufficient to explain our origins in any sort of exclusive manner.
September 6 at 5:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We do, actually.
September 6 at 5:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, as far as I can tell, the scientific evidence points against a first couple via human genetic diversity.
September 6 at 5:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Geneticists have pretty much shown that all currently living humans come from a genetic Adam and genetic Eve.
September 6 at 5:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley who lived several thousand years apart
September 6 at 5:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson How in the universe do you know what matter is proportionate to a soul?
I suppose it's just a slight tweaking of the mass of genetics we share with the animals, especially some animals?
September 6 at 5:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond "Lack of experience diminishes our power of taking a comprehensive view of the admitted facts. Hence, those who dwell in intimate association with nature and its phenomena grow more and more able to formulate, as the foundations of their theories, principles such as to admit of a wide and coherent development: while those whom devotion to abstract discussions has rendered unobservant of the facts are too ready to dogmatize on the basis of a few observations." (Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on De gen. et corrupt. I, 2, n. 25)
September 6 at 5:30pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Maybe, Edward: http://www.nature.com/.../genetic-adam-and-eve-did-not...
Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time
Studies re-date 'Y-chromosome Adam' and 'mitochondrial...
NATURE.COM
September 6 at 5:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, Cats never give birth to non-cats.
September 6 at 5:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Dogs never give birth to non-dogs.
September 6 at 5:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Thank God we have millions of increasingly sharper and better observations as time goes on as well as exponentially increasing abilities to observe the past...
September 6 at 5:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Humans never give birth to non-humans.
September 6 at 5:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhaha...thanks for letting me know.
September 6 at 5:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Glad we are clear.
September 6 at 5:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Non-human matter is not proportionate to human souls.
September 6 at 5:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why non-humans don't give birth to humans.
September 6 at 5:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Techinically, man is not generated by man according to the rational soul either.
September 6 at 5:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But man generates matter that is proportionate to receiving a rational soul.
September 6 at 5:34pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman which is the point.
September 6 at 5:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not that I would simply correlate genetic Adam with scriptural Adam, anyway.
September 6 at 5:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, genetic Adam is probably Noah.
September 6 at 5:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman
September 6 at 5:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley And according to Aquinas, generation only implies similarity in kind: but that can be generic kind and not only specific kind.
September 6 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I agree with this.^
September 6 at 5:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Polar bears can give birth to pizzly bears. Wolves are mating with Coyotes and creating a whole new species of Coyolves. Wolyotes.
September 6 at 5:36pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I think it is very hard to distinguish species.
September 6 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.../VC1fEvidenceSpeciation...
Evolution 101: Speciation
Speciation in action? In the summer of 1995, at least 15 iguanas survived Hurricane Marilyn on a raft of uprooted...
EVOLUTION.BERKELEY.EDU
September 6 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That one doesn't have a cool a ring as Pizzly bears.
September 6 at 5:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Notice, Samantha, that I used the term "non-dogs," or "non-cats"
September 6 at 5:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I can imagine Cro Magnon matter being pretty well fitted to receive human soul
September 6 at 5:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://education.nationalgeographic.com/.../speciation/...
speciation
Encyclopedic entry. Speciation is how a new kind of plant or animal species is created. Speciation occurs when a...
EDUCATION.NATIONALGEOGRAPHIC.COM|BY NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SOCIETY
September 6 at 5:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe BTW, nobody thinks humans evolved from apes.
September 6 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Good. I can infer from that, that everyone agrees with me, then.
September 6 at 5:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because that is the only thing I have been arguing.
September 6 at 5:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Good articles, Matthew.
September 6 at 5:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://news.nationalgeographic.com/.../080421-lizard...
Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island
Italian wall lizards transplanted to a tiny island near...
NEWS.NATIONALGEOGRAPHIC.COM
September 6 at 5:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.the-scientist.com/...
Red fish, blue fish, speciation? | The Scientist Magazine®
Capturing the eye of a potential mate is the first step in...
THE-SCIENTIST.COM
September 6 at 5:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://evolution.berkeley.edu/.../090301_cichlidspeciation
Sex, speciation, and fishy physics
Holding a prism up to a bright window demonstrates a basic principle of optics that the plain white light radiating...
EVOLUTION.BERKELEY.EDU
September 6 at 5:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't get the point of the articles?
September 6 at 5:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have already done lots of reading on evolution.
September 6 at 5:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman lots.
September 6 at 5:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson See the section on speciation: http://users.rcn.com/jkimb.../BiologyPages/P/Polyploidy.html
Polyploidy
Cells (and their owners) are polyploid if they contain more than two haploid (n) sets of chromosomes; that is, their chromosome number is some multiple of n greater than the 2n content of diploid cells. For example, triploid (3n) and tetraploid cell (4n) cells are polyploid.
USERS.RCN.COM
September 6 at 5:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What is the point?
September 6 at 5:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Do you think speciation happens or not?
September 6 at 5:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Of course I do.
September 6 at 5:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Did you read the arguments that I made?
September 6 at 5:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Not everyone here does, and your comments about birth didn't give that impression. You realize, of course, that Samantha's comment above simply means that Homo Sapiens are related to species that seem to be advanced variants on a primate theme - but not apes.
September 6 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No, I didn't - you want me to read what you and others say?!?
September 6 at 5:48pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Dogs don't give birth to "non-dogs"
September 6 at 5:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I did not say that Dogs only give birth to offspring that is, biologically speaking, identical in species.
September 6 at 5:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A racoons and bears really all that different? I have no idea. If someone told me if a racoon and a bear had the same ancestor, I wouldn't be very surprised.
September 6 at 5:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you guys are crazy. everyone knows the devil planted fossils to lead us astray and destroy the Church
September 6 at 5:51pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Hey! I made the Diabolic Darwinist joke like 1500 comments ago.
September 6 at 5:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia the earth is only 6000 years old. Do you even know how big a billion is?
September 6 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Now. if someone told me that a rainbow trout and a giraffe had the same ancestor, I would find that harder to swallow.
September 6 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia all depends on how far back you go.
September 6 at 5:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Damn it Michael, don't be a fool. It is 7,000.
September 6 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Pre-cambrian stuff is pretty strange
September 6 at 5:53pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^heretic
September 6 at 5:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I always go back to turtles.
September 6 at 5:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it's turtles all the way down
September 6 at 5:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman
September 6 at 5:55pm · Like · 4
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Marie Pitt-Payne The Church has never taught that Creation occurred in 6 twenty four hour periods, 6000 years ago. However - she teaches infallibly that we have 2 first parents - male and female.
September 6 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The earth is flat and the center of the flat universe.
September 6 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia discworld!
September 6 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Flat in 4d spacetime? Or flat like construction paper
September 6 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia of course Marie, otherwise we have no original sin etc.etc.
September 6 at 5:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The universe is round in the center of a flat earth.
September 6 at 5:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Flat in time cube http://www.timecube.com
Time Cube
The ONLY Official Site For Gene Ray/TimeCube. Need Help - Donate to Timecube/Gene Ray at PayPal...
TIMECUBE.COM
September 6 at 5:57pm · Like · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne Was more addressing to Edward than you, Michael - but thanks.
September 6 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was just agreeing with you
(testy TACer)
September 6 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman <insert diatribe about TAC mannerisms here>
September 6 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Just a heads up, I'm gonna be back later to yell about that "virginitas in carne" stuff.
September 6 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Daniel that was very arrogant.
September 6 at 5:59pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I will be asleep.
September 6 at 5:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is what I do best.
September 6 at 6:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, that and be right, of course.
September 6 at 6:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You can yell back at me later. Adio.
September 6 at 6:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jeffie where the hell did you find that
September 6 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Whoa! 15,147... A Thread in the hand gathers no moss!
September 6 at 6:04pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You are welcome Michael Beitia.
September 6 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I quoted Aquinas because he denies the claim that bodily integrity is essential to virginity.
September 6 at 6:05pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley And, Marie, I never denied that we had two first parents, just that it's hard to reconcile the first couple with genetic evidence.
September 6 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Without resort to some kind of miracle.
September 6 at 6:06pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne But it is essential in the case of Mary.
September 6 at 6:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley It might be essential to the dogma, but that is not to say that bodily integrity has moral significance.
September 6 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I still think that genetic Adam is Noah.
September 6 at 6:07pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman I also need to go to bed.
September 6 at 6:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How can you still think that, after all these years?
September 6 at 6:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I'm also pretty sure that immortality of the person was a gift to man before the fall.
September 6 at 6:08pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I didn't say you denied it Edward. Lots of things take a long time to reconcile. Thousands of years sometimes. And if it is something that would contradict Revelation, it would be hasty to cite it.
September 6 at 6:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which is why the Passion didn't necessarily restore it.
September 6 at 6:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The foxes and birds have holes and dens, but the Son of Man has no where to lay his head.
September 6 at 6:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I deny that before the fall birth was "like light through a window"... Also Noah may have been one person that survived "a flood" but I. Et that was just a regional affair and certainly in no way did it envelop the whole world.
September 6 at 6:09pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I didn't say it had moral significance. I said the opposite.
September 6 at 6:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I see Edward is now the mystic expert on the Sacred Passion of our Lord.
September 6 at 6:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just repeating Augustine, basically.
September 6 at 6:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley And the notion that if something is a necessary consequence of a certain set of circumstances, that set of circumstances cannot exist without the consequence existing.
September 6 at 6:11pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I did not say birth before the Fall was like light through a window. It would have been natural, but painless. Natural because Adam would have been the father.
When God is the Father, however, Mary's physical integrity is an important sign of the Incarnation being entirely the work of God.
September 6 at 6:12pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Not if it contradicts Catholic dogma.
September 6 at 6:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Plus dogma is there to help illumine and make our arguments more reasonable and beautiful.
September 6 at 6:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Thus rationality requires that man be naked and act to clothe himself. (Whether or not the fall) since rationality necessitates imperfection of form and perfection to be situational to the work of reason. Thus the hammer is part of the man as an extension of his being.
September 6 at 6:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Man gave names to all the tools in his tool belt?
September 6 at 6:15pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I miss Peregrine
September 6 at 6:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, what is contradicting what dogma?
September 6 at 6:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley If a certain set of circumstances necessarily implies a certain effect and if that set of circumstances exists, the effect cannot contradict dogma, Scott.
September 6 at 6:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Where did the new, kinder, gentler Scott go? did anyone see him leave?
September 6 at 6:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Before the fall, prelapsarian man had an infused relationship with God and a special relationship with nature and the animals. After the fall, while man retained some dominion over the animals, animals are used by God to help bring man back towards the path of salvation. Consider the talking donkey in the Old Testament who directed the prophet Balaam back to the path of God, and the Sparrow or the Camel which Christ uses to teach lesons about wisdom, virtue and salvation.
September 6 at 6:18pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne For the record: I did not claim physical integrity (virginity) had moral significance. Samantha said I was implying it re: the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin - and I claimed her suggestion was rooted in 21st century angst.
September 6 at 6:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia wth?
September 6 at 6:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, where did that come from? and how is it relevant to anything I said?
September 6 at 6:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-WPlvZguZ4
What in God's holy name are you blathering about?
New shit has come to light ...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 6 at 6:19pm · Unlike · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne A broken hymen is not a moral issue, Michael.
September 6 at 6:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not you, Scott. and yes, it isn't
September 6 at 6:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I hit wth before your comment appeared
September 6 at 6:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I quoted Aqunas indicating that virginity does not consist in an intact hymen.
September 6 at 6:20pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Samantha suggested that the dogma of perpetual virginity was a moral statement.
September 6 at 6:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott refer to above video
September 6 at 6:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, in discussing the virtue of virginity, Aquinas explicitly says that an intact hymen is per accidens to virginity.
September 6 at 6:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Mary's perpetual virginity is dogma, I believe.
September 6 at 6:21pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne Edward - you are missing the point. Virginitas in partu is intact hymen during childbirth - which is dogmatic.
September 6 at 6:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Blather is also word that should be used more frequently. No, I meant slather, as in TX BBQ sauce.
September 6 at 6:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Texas BBQ is awful. KC is better
September 6 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia discuss
September 6 at 6:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Oh yeah!!
September 6 at 6:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia has bad taste, but we already knew that .
September 6 at 6:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg KC BBQ has origin in jazz movement on 17th and vine. Lovely stuff. Generates much economy in this lovely city. Real unemployment rate here is 3%.
September 6 at 6:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perhaps there's something we can agree on? nah. probably not
September 6 at 6:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Mary suffered child birth and suffered seeing her child die
September 6 at 6:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Edward Langley, you've probably never had the joy of "fry sauce"
September 6 at 6:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg KC BBQ is better than Texas BBQ because KC BBQ has deeper cultural context.
September 6 at 6:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I like NC BBQ too
September 6 at 6:26pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Everyone move to Kansas City.
September 6 at 6:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg NC BBQ is very good.
September 6 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg NC is beautiful state. Many good people.
September 6 at 6:28pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Actually - she didn't suffer in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a curse of the Fall. Mary's Immaculate Conception meant no pain in childbirth and due to her role as Theotokos, she is a perpetual virgin.
Bye again....
September 6 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia, you've already admitted that you don't like Texas, so you're biased.
September 6 at 6:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I lived there, so it is a familiar dislike
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny, I've heard of more murders in NC than in any other state.
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and the food in KC is really just better
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia come visit Chicago
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley My parent's family lives in the Houston area . . .
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley (i.e. my siblings)
September 6 at 6:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley I passed through it a couple months ago, stayed long enough to drink a cup of coffee and drove on.
September 6 at 6:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my family still lives in Idaho, but I never want to go back there
September 6 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd move to Houston in a heartbeat.
September 6 at 6:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Isn't there the Aquinas school in Houston?
September 6 at 6:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley UST?
September 6 at 6:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley with the Center for Thomistic Studies.
September 6 at 6:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley yeag.
September 6 at 6:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sure, whatever
September 6 at 6:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know if they'd hire a Laval Thomist, though.
September 6 at 6:35pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia fake being Maritainian
September 6 at 6:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dinner time...
September 6 at 6:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I'd probably have a better shot at the archdiocesan seminary.
September 6 at 6:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Beitia, are you from Idaho?
September 6 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill So the belief of Mary not suffering child birth pains is an interpretation of genesis as literal mixed with the belief of an intact hymen to a light through the window analogy? Is it not possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a Virgin?
September 6 at 6:39pm · Like
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Joel HF Edit: It is possible to not have an intact hymen and still be a Virgin. (Your question was phrased oddly.)
September 6 at 7:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't know re. the 1st. The answer to the 2nd is yes. The additional answer is that Mary's bodily integrity is dogmatically defined.
September 6 at 6:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Nowhere on this page does it say "not experience pain". http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Virgin Birth of Christ
The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 6 at 6:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Also while Mary "does not know man" before or after that does not exclude suffering.
September 6 at 6:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or natural child birth.
September 6 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg If you move to Kansas City, live in Johnson County Kansas. Low taxes. Good services. Awesome Bishop. Diocese growing. Governor is Good Roman Catholic. Pro-life.
September 6 at 6:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think New Advent prints some things sometimes which are not perfectly true.
September 6 at 6:50pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I'm pretty sure the "painless birth" part is just a pious tradition.
September 6 at 6:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley However, when St. Thomas gives counterexamples to the proposition that two bodies cannot be in one place, he generally gives Christ walking through the door after his Resurrection and the Virgin Birth.
September 6 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley (not to denigrate pious traditions, BTW)
September 6 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Mary is Theotokos,
Mother of God,
Immaculate Conception,
Seat of Wisdom,
Morning Star...
Sing her praises!
September 6 at 6:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley Here's a partial quote of Ott on the question:
September 6 at 7:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Mary bore her Son without any violation
of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the
ground of the general promulgation of
doctrine.)
The dogma merely asserts the fact of the
continuance of Mary’s physical virginity without
determining more closely how this is to be
physiologically explained. In general the Fathers
and the Schoolmen conceived it as non-injury to
the hymen, and accordingly taught that Mary
gave birth in miraculous fashion without
opening of the womb and injury to the hymen,
and consequently also without pains (cf. S. th.
III 28, 2).
However, according to modern natural scientific
knowledge, the purely physical side of virginity
consists in the non-fulfilment of the sex act
(“sex-act virginity”) and in the non-contact of
the female egg by the male seed ("seed-act
virginity”) (A. Mitterer). Thus, injury to the
hymen in birth does not destroy virginity, while,
on the other hand, its rupture seems to belong to
complete natural motherhood. It follows from
this that from the concept of virginity alone the
miraculous character of the process of birth
cannot be inferred, if it cannot be, and must not
be derived from other facts of Revelation."
September 6 at 7:01pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Revelation 12
12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.
3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.
7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:
8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:
14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
18 And he stood upon the sand of the sea.
September 6 at 7:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ott is cited here in greater length: http://www.pford.stjohnsem.edu/.../20%20mchugh%20and... but I think the first part of the letter endorses a heresy (it seems to me that it implies that Mary didn't need the Passion for salvation). Joshua Kenz would know better.
September 6 at 7:04pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg When Mary travelled to visit her cousin Elizabeth, her footprints left in the soil were in the shape of lillies of the valley, as it is stated in pious medieval manuscripts; and during the Flight into Egypt, legend tells how the Holy Family was waylayed by robbers who stole Mary's purse only to find, after they had run away, it was filled with marygolds. Repentant, they returned only to find the marygolds hade been turned again into real gold whereupon they converted and worshipped the Lord.
September 6 at 7:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, be rational and explain the relevance.
September 6 at 7:11pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg In Sicily, it is told that the Madonna's Juniper Bush opened its branches to shelter the Holy Family when Herod's pursuing soldiers drew near them as they fled to Egypt. The rosemary bush and clematis were also said to have sheltered the Holy Family during the flight into Egypt. The rosemary's fragrance arose after Mary hung her linens to dry on its branches.
September 6 at 7:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Someone is asking to be blocked.
September 6 at 7:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The alabaster white snowdrop became a symbol of Mary's purity and was called the Flower of Purification because it bloomed on February 2, the Feast of the Purification of Mary. In Italy and other countries in Europe the statue of Mary was removed from the altar on that day and snowdrops were strewn in its place. This day was also the feast of the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple. The flowers were called Candlemas Bells after the ceremony of blessing the candles began late in the eighth century and February 2 also became known as Candlemas Day.
September 6 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Veneration of Mary is highly relevant.
September 6 at 7:13pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I just work up, and still have a lot to catch up. But her are somethings
1. Samantha Cohoe. The difference in ensoulment is that God does not pre-create the soul and "stuff it" in the zygote. Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human person, and, in the order of nature, it is posterior to it, though it may be simultaneous in time. The soul really is not something just crammed into the process. It is a term of generation. But if multiple souls are in that zygote, then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human conception, to natural processes.
2. Edward Langley and Joel HF. This seems a fair treatment of the question of the desire to know God. http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/reality.htm#08
3. Thesis, is Scott's ideas of ensoulment are correct, original sin cannot be. Even with St. Thomas the argument for how original sin is inherited is extremely difficult. This problem made Augustine waver between creationism and transducianism. The "ensoulment" cannot be something so extrinsic to the natural process of generation, which must precede it.
Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P.
We give here the chief characteristics of the knowledge creatures may have of God: first by the beatific vision; secondly by the analogical knowledge we must be content with here below.
EWTN.COM
September 6 at 7:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz On the Marian issues, and the stupidity of citing Ott without actually citing him (seriously, supposed lists of dogmata without his actual text, explanations, citations?) I will have to comment later on
September 6 at 7:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is impossible to reduce sacred dogma to rational debate and certain rational conclusion. It can only be understood as a reasonable mystery.
September 6 at 7:24pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia it is important to understand, however
September 6 at 7:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, but the way to understanding the sacred is not the same as natural science. The understanding of the sacred is a reasonable mystery, and it certainly admits of pious myth and literary tradition, which to many seems more appropriate than the physiological descriptions of Ott.
September 6 at 7:27pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Marie's talk about the "physical integrity" of Mary makes me nauseous.
September 6 at 7:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And thanks for the Thomas, Ed. He puts it well.
September 6 at 7:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I fail completely to see how Mary's hymen staying intact through childbirth is in any way relevant to anything theological, including that the Incarnation is entirely the work of God.
September 6 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Have you guys figured out amongst yourselves whether that weirdness is actually dogma?
September 6 at 7:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, I think I actually cited him: I gave the original source which included the page numbers and a longer quotation.
September 6 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seemed like you were leaning toward "no."
September 6 at 7:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the reason for the intact hymen, according to Marie, was to be a sign that the conception of Christ was entirely supernatural.
September 6 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ott (who is not the final word, but is a good reference point) was quoted above, and it leans towards no. But basically whatever "physical virginity" entails, that must be affirmed of Mary at all times.
September 6 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Any old random weird miracle would fit the bill just as well, I think.
September 6 at 7:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, I don't really know what is included under the dogma, and things the others said gives me pause.
September 6 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia this is Piux IX, in defining the dogma, but I don't know if it helps:
As if these splendid eulogies and tributes were not sufficient, the Fathers proclaimed with particular and definite statements that when one treats of sin, the holy Virgin Mary is not even to be mentioned; for to her more grace was given than was necessary to conquer sin completely.[24] They also declared that the most glorious Virgin was Reparatrix of the first parents, the giver of life to posterity; that she was chosen before the ages, prepared for himself by the Most High, foretold by God when he said to the serpent, "I will put enmities between you and the woman."[25]-unmistakable evidence that she was crushed the poisonous head of the serpent. And hence they affirmed that the Blessed Virgin was, through grace, entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind; that she was always united with God and joined to him by an eternal covenant; that she was never in darkness but always in light; and that, therefore, she was entirely a fit habitation for Christ, not because of the state of her body, but because of her original grace.
September 6 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne Does circumcision as the sign of the Covenant in the Old Testament make you nauseous, Samantha?
September 6 at 7:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia followed by St. JPII:
Her virginity "during and after giving birth", although implicit in the title virgin already attributed to Mary from the Church's earliest days, became the object of deep doctrinal study since some began explicitly to cast doubts on it. Pope St Hormisdas explains that "the Son of God became Son of man, born in time in the manner of a man, opening his mother's womb to birth [cf. Lk 2:23] and, through God's power, not dissolving his mother's virginity" (DS 368). This doctrine was confirmed by the Second Vatican Council, which states that the firstborn Son of Mary "did not diminish his Mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it" (Lumen gentium, n. 57). As regards her virginity after the birth, it must first of all be pointed out that there are no reasons for thinking that the will to remain a virgin, which Mary expressed at the moment of the Annunciation (cf. Lk 1:34) was then changed. Moreover, the immediate meaning of the words: "Woman, behold, your son!", "Behold, your mother" (Jn 19:26), which Jesus addressed to Mary and to his favourite disciple from the Cross, imply that Mary had no other children.
September 6 at 7:41pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The intact hymen is a particularly fitting miracle in two ways: (a) it nearly completely rules out sexual intercourse in the generation of Christ. and (b) it makes it so that Christ's birth involves a miracle only possible by the power of God: making two bodies be in the same place.
September 6 at 7:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg JP II is always good and Ed you are being vulgar, profane and raining on the parade of sacred mystery.
September 6 at 7:43pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley No more so than Aquinas in discussing these matters, Mr. Weinberg.
September 6 at 7:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but neither pope speaks specifically to the question of physical "intact-ness", so I suppose it really doesn't matter
September 6 at 7:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Aquinas was known for his purity.
September 6 at 7:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't see the vulgarity, but more an examination of all possibilities.
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Marie, nope. the case it not analogous
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You are not Aquinas, Mr. Langley, and you are way out of context.
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne So only the female body nauseates you?
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nope, we're talking about the virgin birth and part of the tradition is bodily integrity.
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ed, those "fittingness" arguments are weak.
September 6 at 7:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha, never said they weren't
September 6 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can we go back to what we know?
1 perpetual virginity
2 free from sin from the moment the soul was put into the body
September 6 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The female body does not nauseate me. People thinking that natural childbirth is a violation of "physical integrity" do.
September 6 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But these details are subject to the will of God, so we won't have anything more than such arguments in these matters.
September 6 at 7:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you still holding that the Immaculate Conception was not immaculate in Her body, Mr. Beitia?
September 6 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley What does that mean, Papa Weinberg?
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^ does anyone know what Scott is talking about?
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia No, I was merely disagreeing that conception is the same as fertilization, as I have said
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne But cutting off a foreskin is fine with you?
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think he knows what he is talking about.
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as Pius IX seems to agree with me
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (more like I to him, in the real order of things)
September 6 at 7:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What is the parallel you are attempting to draw?
September 6 at 7:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, Mr. Beitia, you do hold that Mary was immaculate only in soul but not body. I just want to know your position before backing out of this obscene conversation. To hell with you.
September 6 at 7:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, I never said that
September 6 at 7:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia In fact, I just said that I never said that
September 6 at 7:49pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne The point is this: giving birth to the Son of God is not "natural childbirth". It is supernatural childbirth. That it would occur in an extraordinary way to highlight that point is not in any way denigrating to natural maternity.
I think your nausea is rooted in the fact that you see it as some kind of sexist thing - which is why I refer to 21st century angst.
September 6 at 7:51pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne "Nauseous" is a pretty strong, bordering on dysfunctional, term to use
September 6 at 7:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia here's what the Holy Father Pius IX wrote:
Now inasmuch as whatever pertains to sacred worship is intimately connected with its object and cannot have either consistency or durability if this object is vague or uncertain, our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs, therefore, while directing all their efforts toward an increase of the devotion to the conception, made it their aim not only to emphasize the object with the utmost zeal, but also to enunciate the exact doctrine.[6] Definitely and clearly they taught that the feast was held in honor of the conception of the Virgin. They denounced as false and absolutely foreign to the mind of the Church the opinion of those who held and affirmed that it was not the conception of the Virgin but her sanctification that was honored by the Church. They never thought that greater leniency should be extended toward those who, attempting to disprove the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin, devised a distinction between the first and second instance of conception and inferred that the conception which the Church celebrates was not that of the first instance of conception but the second. In fact, they held it was their duty not only to uphold and defend with all their power the Feast of the Conception of the Blessed Virgin but also to assert that the true object of this veneration was her conception considered in its first instant. Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul's infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception."[7]
September 6 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I draw attention to the "first instant of the soul's infusion into the body"
September 6 at 7:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which suggests the existence of some thing (body) for the soul to be infused into
September 6 at 7:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia now of course, you can hold that fertilization is contemporary with conception, and that's cool, I'm suggesting that one is the biological act and the other is a metaphysical act, only possible by the divine will
September 6 at 7:55pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia and potentially separable in time
September 6 at 7:55pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I think the separability in time is a necessary consequence of the rational soul not being generable by any power besides God's: the generative faculty has to have a proportionate object of itself for it to be an instrument of the generation of the person and that proportionate object cannot be the rational soul.
September 6 at 8:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley (the principle is that every instrument has an effect it produces by its own nature)
September 6 at 8:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley as well as an effect it produces by the power of the principal agent.
September 6 at 8:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I tend to agree, but I'm not wedded to the idea. I fail to see where I have contradicted any teaching of the Church that justifies a "go to hell"
September 6 at 8:08pm · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Marie-- let's recap. You claimed that it is dogma to hold that Mary remained "physically intact" through childbirth. All the actual quotes that have been produced from actual dogma affirm no such thing, but rather talk about Mary's perpetual virginity and incorruptibility. So, unless you want to claim that an intact hymen is necessary to virginity, or that physical childbirth is a corruption of the body, then you were just wrong about your original claim.
September 6 at 8:08pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I said "separabilit" not "actual separation", just to be clear.
September 6 at 8:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If you want to make a really weak argument about fittingness and admit it isn't dogma, or produce some actual evidence that your weird claim is dogma, then go for it.
September 6 at 8:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you're welcome for doing the leg work
September 6 at 8:10pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes thanks
September 6 at 8:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia someone has to dig up actual dogma for us to endlessly debate
September 6 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne First Lateran Council:
"If anyone does not, according to the holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was begotten of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without injury, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned."
September 6 at 8:10pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne How do you interpret "injury" - breaking her leg?
September 6 at 8:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sure.
September 6 at 8:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Giving birth doesn't injure virginity
September 6 at 8:11pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe unless you want to make a weird claim about an intact hymen being essential to virginity
September 6 at 8:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe which I would find sexist.
September 6 at 8:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe part of my 21st century angst, no doubt
September 6 at 8:12pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne So when the Church specifically states she remained a virgin "during" birth, you think we need to be assured she was not having sex while she was giving birth?
September 6 at 8:12pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne That is absurd
September 6 at 8:13pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You quoted that she remained a virgin after the birth
September 6 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne No - the teaching is before, during and after. I have quoted it at least 3 times.
September 6 at 8:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia isn't "perpetual" the same as before, during and after?
September 6 at 8:14pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^ yep
September 6 at 8:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe beat me to it
September 6 at 8:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and we all agree on that, right?
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne ???? Beat you to what?
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Weeeelll
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Why even say "during"?
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perpetual virginity, don't we all agree on that?
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Probably. I mean, I wouldn't have a problem with it if I reconvert.
September 6 at 8:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I like to keep all this clear in my head, what I would actually have to believe, what I wouldn't
September 6 at 8:16pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe useful for reference
September 6 at 8:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I tell you what, I'd have a pretty damn hard time seeing how it was necessary to my salvation to believe that Mary's hymen was intact after she gave birth to Christ
September 6 at 8:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley This might be a bit forward, but would you mind sharing your biggest problem?
September 6 at 8:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe maybe if TNET starts showing real signs of winding down
September 6 at 8:17pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne "ante partum, in partu, and post partum" is the teaching.
Why bother with "in partu"? Who would think someone would be having sex while giving birth?
September 6 at 8:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Natural child birth is made better by christ's participation in it.
September 6 at 8:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I guess as to the physical intactness, I see arguments for it, as Edward and Marie have given. But I also think that the "poof here's baby Jesus" is a little weird. I don't think any interpretation is necessary
September 6 at 8:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe they're just being thorough
September 6 at 8:18pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I still want an answer to why "in partu"
September 6 at 8:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, do you deny it?
September 6 at 8:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's true even if it isn't making a very profound point
September 6 at 8:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Maybe "in partu" refers to birth not violating purity?
September 6 at 8:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I honestly don't know.
September 6 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, unless you want to assert that an intact hymen is an essential part of virginity, you haven't made your point
September 6 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, isn't dogma supposed to be what is necessary to believe for salvation?
September 6 at 8:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that dogmas are divided into two classes: those which are simply necessary for salvation and those which are necessary to believe for salvation only because the Church has proposed them for belief.
I'd happily admit I'm wrong on this. But if I were wrong, I'd wonder how early Christians who denied the IC were saved if belief in the IC is necessary for salvation.
September 6 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Did I get that right?
September 6 at 8:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia All I know is that nothing in the event that was the birth of Christ violated Mary's virginity
September 6 at 8:20pm · Like
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Joel HF Personally, I've always been happy with perpetual "physical virginity." I thought the JPII quote above (wherein he quotes VII) was good. I don't think "physical virginity" has been dogmatically defined.
September 6 at 8:21pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia no, dogma is what is always all time true.
September 6 at 8:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill For the sake of going full circle, Man's rationality pre fall necessitating pain and clothing was my thesis topic. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aVvw-pusSLY
Adventure Time - FULL CIRCLE.wmv
FULL CIRCLE
YOUTUBE.COM
September 6 at 8:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^my point^
September 6 at 8:21pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I think you are missing my point, Samantha. I personally would find it more concerning if giving birth was considered a violation of purity than if a physical sign was left to indicate a supernatural birth. I really don't know why this nauseates you..... but you are entitled to your nausea.
September 6 at 8:23pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne BTW - I still don't understand why circumcision is no problem for you...
September 6 at 8:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is it a problem for you? I still don't see what connection you are making.
September 6 at 8:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Marie, you keep arguing that virgin during childbirth has to mean her hymen wasn't torn-- which means you think a torn hymen is not compatible with virginity, which is problematic to me.
September 6 at 8:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe <<The difference in ensoulment is that God does not pre-create the soul and "stuff it" in the zygote. Rather the soul is created with the conception of the human person, and, in the order of nature, it is posterior to it, though it may be simultaneous in time. The soul really is not something just crammed into the process. It is a term of generation. But if multiple souls are in that zygote, then we must abandon that view and view ensoulment as something wholly incidental to human conception, to natural processes.>> But going back to this stuff, is what Mr. Kenz saying here compatible with the ensoulment view wherein the soul comes to be well after fertilization?
September 6 at 8:27pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Well - I think circumcision is not part of the New Covenant for a reason....
And no, no, no... you continue to miss the point. A torn hymen is not incompatible with virginity. However - if you wanted to stress the point about a supernatural conception/birth, it seems a logical way to do it, and it explains "in partu" better than a loss of purity through childbirth or sex during childbirth.
September 6 at 8:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Like I said, if you want to make a weak, weird fittingness argument for Mary's intact hymen, go for it. But don't claim it's dogma, because then you're implying something completely different, given what the dogmatic statements actually say
September 6 at 8:30pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF As I read Mr. Kenz, it is perfectly compatible with that view, as the soul would then be the term of that generation and posterior in time, as well as in the order of nature. That doesn't mean it is posterior in time, but that would be the easy case.
September 6 at 8:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So the embryo is just mattered being prepared until ensoulment?
September 6 at 8:31pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne And you want to say that "injury" more likely refers to a broken leg - so I will remain with the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who speak of "light thru glass" and you can hold your opinion. Cheers.
September 6 at 8:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I want to say that injury to her virginity cannot refer to injury to her hymen. But yeah, enjoy your "light thru glass" if that makes sense to you.
September 6 at 8:32pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne You are very condescending, Samantha. You may not respect the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, but I do.
September 6 at 8:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I am condescending, sorry.
September 6 at 8:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think at this point, the most helpful resolution is to realize that neither position seems to be ruled out by the dogma.
September 6 at 8:37pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne If I thought you were apologizing, I would accept it.
September 6 at 8:37pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If the soul is the formal cause, isn't it necessary for life and cell division? Unless man's soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative soul, animal soul or rational soul. Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to lesser, so that "this person is a human vegetable" is an accurate statement.
September 6 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Unless there is explicit evidence as to the implications of "physical virginity".
September 6 at 8:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, that's more or less Aquinas's view of generation.
September 6 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (at least the first part)
September 6 at 8:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously, I am sorry I was condescending.
September 6 at 8:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know how much thought Aquinas gave to the "descent" from the rational soul. But something like that seems to happen when body parts are kept "alive" outside of the person and possibly in certain end-of-life circumstances.
September 6 at 8:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill And so ensoulment is part of all cell division and if so divided into two separate organisms they are two separate souls that have some relation to the prior soul causing said division.
September 6 at 8:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley The infusion of the rational soul is a special case, because the only way for an intellect to come to be is an special act of creation.
September 6 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It seems there are three souls. One before and two after.
September 6 at 8:41pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But also seriously, why are Scott and I the only ones on this thread who ever get called out for being jerks?
September 6 at 8:41pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley (At least, according to the near-unanimous position of the Christian scholastics.
September 6 at 8:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott has called me a jerk, and worse, several times.
September 6 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And Beitia calls 'imself a jerk
September 6 at 8:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill But are there people without souls? (Gingers speak up. Erik Bootsma)
September 6 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, because "person" is defined by the rational soul.
September 6 at 8:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Michael Beitia, let me know if I did that right)
September 6 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott calls all of us jerks, so that doesn't count.
September 6 at 8:43pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF So that confirms it: Gingers are soulless.
September 6 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF And thus not persons.
September 6 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong." I'm happy to go out being considered an idiot.
September 6 at 8:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley I hope I haven't been a jerk without due cause.
September 6 at 8:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well I didn't say that, Marie!
September 6 at 8:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If the soul is the formal cause, isn't it necessary for life and cell division? Unless man's soul changes and can said to be at one time a vegetative soul, animal soul or rational soul. Thus if it can change from lesser to greater could it not also change from greater to lesser, so that "this person is a human vegetable" is an accurate statement.>>> has this been answered?
September 6 at 8:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley I basically said that the ascent is Aquinas's view, and I'm not sure about the "descent".
September 6 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley But that's not really an answer.
September 6 at 8:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe then the same biological organism (the fetus) is a completely different kind of being at different times
September 6 at 8:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's more or less Aquinas's view.
September 6 at 8:50pm · Like
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Joel HF Would it be a being fully, on that view?
September 6 at 8:50pm · Unlike · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne True, Samantha - and no offense taken.
I teach Theology to high school students for a living. We live in a very sceptical world and it is possible to Monty Python-esque pretty much any Catholic doctrine... I try to be fair with the supernatural, that's all.
September 6 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No.. I would say that it is always the same thing
September 6 at 8:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I only taught theology for a semester as a long term sub.
September 6 at 8:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think we know pretty well biologically these days that an embryo is a self-directed biological organism from conception.
September 6 at 8:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, it's some kind of being
September 6 at 8:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley The various transitional beings are incomplete beings directed by their nature to a complete being, namely the human generated.
September 6 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sure, as are the sperm and egg. But I don't hold the delayed ensoulment view.
September 6 at 8:53pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I should have said "would be"
September 6 at 8:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not sure which position is right, myself, but I incline to simutaneity of conception and ensoulment myself. I just think delayed ensoulment isn't as stupid as some people think it to be and that Aristotle just might be right
September 6 at 8:55pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^This.
September 6 at 8:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley And that "outdated embryology" is, in the main, a spurious objection.
September 6 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Hey, Jeff Neill, how's dinner coming along? Natives are getting restless!!!
September 6 at 8:58pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley Sounds like the spouses are coming after their spouses now.
September 6 at 8:59pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill Please, get your nose out of the phone and man that grill
September 6 at 9:00pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF My wife has asked if instead of yelling up the stairs, I would rather she post her requests on TNET.
September 6 at 9:00pm · Unlike · 9
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Joel HF I didn't answer, too busy with TNET of course.
September 6 at 9:00pm · Unlike · 8
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Edward Langley I want to see this, Joel.
September 6 at 9:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Just as long as no one tags Catherine Joliat Feil
September 6 at 9:01pm · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF D'OH!
September 6 at 9:01pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Is Catherine Joliat Feil a lurker? Or just too good for us?
September 6 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Liz Neill, the chicken is flipped and sauced... I'll re flip and sauce in a minute.
September 6 at 9:06pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds tasty, Jeff.
September 6 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, I got a "go to hell" so you've yet to top that. jerk. and I called Daniel a jerk too.
September 6 at 9:08pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Wow, who said that? I missed it
September 6 at 9:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia guess
September 6 at 9:09pm · Like
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Liz Neill Jeff Neill, thank you for the speedy response. I shall inform the natives.
September 6 at 9:09pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe haha, nevermind
September 6 at 9:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think that counts, Beitia.
September 6 at 9:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia But what do we make of the time between fertilization and implantation, several days according to biologists, where the zygote has cells merrily dividing away?
September 6 at 9:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Do you think implantation is significant in some way?
September 6 at 9:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia according to biologists, 60-80% of naturally fertilized eggs pass with the uterine lining naturally, i.e.: aren't fertilized in time to implant, and thus out they go
September 6 at 9:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes I do
September 6 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe back to that are we.
September 6 at 9:11pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If this goes back to hell again I'm out
September 6 at 9:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we are. I don't understand how 60-80% of "pregnancies" because that's what they would be if the zygote had a rational soul, end before the first week. Makes no sense
September 6 at 9:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill
September 6 at 9:13pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I'll give you that it seems wrong intuitively
September 6 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe charcoal grill and everything
September 6 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I know it isn't an argument for delayed ensoulment, but it seems intuitively correct
September 6 at 9:13pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I hear that.
September 6 at 9:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's all. . . carry on
September 6 at 9:14pm · Like
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Liz Neill That's how we roll Samantha
September 6 at 9:14pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia how do you roll Samantha? (commas are important)
September 6 at 9:16pm · Like · 5
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Liz Neill Lol
September 6 at 9:17pm · Like
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Liz Neill You try typing on the iPhone with a 1.5 yr old crawling on you. Still is.
September 6 at 9:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If delayed ensoulment is the real, I don't know if the Church is consistent in the gravity with which it regards all abortions.
September 6 at 9:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think that follows
September 6 at 9:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Morning after as abortion. If not implanted then not ensouled the. Not abortion
September 6 at 9:20pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not that it regards them as wrong, just the way it insists on the gravity
September 6 at 9:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe automatic excommunications and such
September 6 at 9:20pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe: I will cop to occasional lurking, but I lack the commitment and "patience" that actual posting would seem to require.
September 6 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil I'm satisfied that my influence has been felt on the topics that piqued my interest, though.
September 6 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine, should I get short Frye boots or tall Frye boots?
September 6 at 9:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ha! I should have guessed!
September 6 at 9:21pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Are you trying to chase all the men off the thread?
September 6 at 9:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, just get your advice.
September 6 at 9:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going shopping tomorrow.
September 6 at 9:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was trying to chase them off before, with all that hymen talk, but it didn't work
September 6 at 9:23pm · Like
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Joel HF Based on my reading of Church history and the fathers, men *love* talking about hymens.
September 6 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe lol so true
September 6 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't even. I just. You're all. I can't even.
Sigh.
September 6 at 9:26pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Re: boots: tall ones may be less subject to the vicissitudes of the fashion industry (i.e., they may be more "classic")--but the short ones are cheaper.
September 6 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I prefer talk about hymns.
September 6 at 9:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe http://shop.nordstrom.com/.../frye-anna.../3453813...
Frye 'Anna - Shortie' Leather Boot (Women) | Nordstrom
Free shipping and returns on Frye 'Anna - Shortie'...
SHOP.NORDSTROM.COM
September 6 at 9:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I like these ones
September 6 at 9:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe neither tall nor cheap
September 6 at 9:29pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe: Probably the closest I came to actually posting (before tonight) was to tell you how jealous I am of your boys' school. But then the conversation moved on...
September 6 at 9:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Their school is soooooo great
September 6 at 9:29pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil There is a Charlotte Mason school in Northern VA...but it is 45 minutes from here (more like 90, with traffic), and it costs twice as much.
September 6 at 9:30pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil (Everything in NoVa involves traffic and inflated prices.)
September 6 at 9:30pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, sorry. NoVa sucks.
September 6 at 9:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe http://shop.nordstrom.com/.../frye-anna-d-ring.../3699248...
Frye 'Anna' D Ring Boot (Women) | Nordstrom
Free shipping and returns on Frye 'Anna' D Ring Boot...
SHOP.NORDSTROM.COM
September 6 at 9:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Pardon me if I introduce, for anyone so inclined, a different and intrinsically less important topic, but one I have wanted to return to for some time now. I don't recall whether it was on TNET or some other thread that a number of teachers were comparing notes on their current students' willingness to make moral judgments, but I was surprised by the shared experience of these teachers on this matter. They said that their students were generally convinced that some actions are indeed immoral, especially obviously evil actions such as torturing babies. What I have found in the classroom, however, is that while students will confess to having a personal aversion to torturing babies, they are almost universally unwilling to say that such actions are wrong for everyone everywhere. I have set forth below an actual facebook dialogue with one of my ex-students (who is now studying at a well respected liberal arts college) which illustrates well my experience in the classroom for the last 35 years. I have not posted this dialogue to ridicule this student or anyone else, but I would be very interested to know whether other teachers out there have generally had the same kinds of exchanges with their students. In the dialogue below (which I have had to break up into three parts since facebook will not accept it as a single comment), I have changed the names of all the other participants to protect their identities. The dialogue was initiated when my ex-student "Karen" posted an article about a man who feel in love with his best friend and thereby discovered that homosexual love was as wonderful as heterosexual love. Karen's friend Sally was the first to respond with warm support for the article. After Karen's response to Sally, I entered the conversation as follows below:
Sally: I love the line, "It just matters if it brought me love."
Karen: Thanks so much for reading this!!!! I agree. If only everyone was like this you know?
Jeffrey Bond: Karen, I am confused by your comment. You want everyone to be like this? Does that mean you are not open to people who are not like this? That sounds judgmental to me, yet aren't you the one who is against people making such judgments. Please explain!
Karen: Dr. Bond, of course not! To each their own, of course. I simply meant, I wish everyone was so much more focused on the parts that matter, like love. Rather than the parts that get in the way, like what you think you are supposed to be, or identify with or what the world will see it as. I think its a beautiful gift that this man was able to just recognize that he loved this man, his best friend, and didn't try to question it to death, but rather accepted it as something positive and loving in his life and let that be enough. I think this is a case of simplicity being the best path he could have offered himself. I appreciate you caring enough to inquire further and I hope this explains a little more?
Jeffrey Bond: I think I understand what you are saying, but I am still puzzled. Can the principle of "to each their own" really guide us? What if someone's "own" is contrary to what you support in your comment above? In other words, what if someone rejects the idea of "to each their own." You clearly don't agree with that person, yet by your own principle don't you also have to approve of that person's position, too? Therefore, doesn't the principle of "to each their own" cause one to both approve of and disapprove of the very same thing? Does that make any sense to you?
Karen: It does! And I think I agree with exactly the way you've phrased it. I suppose a good comparison would be when a couple "agrees to disagree" on specific topic. They reach a level of neutrality without surrendering their own personal beliefs on the matter. This allows them to carry on together and move forward, functioning together in the same world as two individual people. When you take this ideology to a larger population than one specific couple, i.e. the human race, I think "to each their own" is a way to work towards harmony when there are so many different and sometimes conflicting opinions, values, and beliefs out there, without feeling compelled to all be cookie cutter copies of one another, always in agreement.
Karen: I agree completely with what you've said about my own principle asking me to both simultaneously approve of and disapprove of the very same thing, but I suppose it depends on what my end goal is for this to be acceptable and good enough. If my end goal is to achieve harmony, peace and respect amongst the people I share this earth with, then I would say its the best path I've learned to get there in my young adult life.
September 6 at 9:38pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Part II
Jeffrey Bond: But aren't there limits to the principle "to each their own"? Let me offer an extreme example in order to make a point. What if someone loves to torture babies. Surely you would not say to that person, "Hey, to each their own." You could not just "agree to disagree" could you?
Jeffrey Bond: I am assuming you could not "agree to disagree" with someone who loves to torture babies. You could not say in that case "to each their own" because you would be supporting someone doing something that is wrong. But as soon as you admit that something is wrong, don't you have to give up the principle "to each their own"?
Karen: Hmm. Well here is where I run into my own personal dilemma. I am still trying to figure out my own beliefs on if people can be, by nature, good or bad. I mean purely born one or the other without any choice in the matter. Or if everyone is born "good" and along the way things happen to them that shape the decisions they make, for example, torturing babies. Assuming I believe that everyone is born good and something led this person to make such a socially deemed "evil decision", I would be much more inclined to feel empathy for this person. I would not condone it, but I would try to put myself in his or her shoes and see how they've come to justify it. However, if I come to believe that some people are just born rotten in their core, then I would be significantly less inclined to agree to disagree in this situation because he would be the enemy. Assuming I was born inherently good and am in the right mind to decide such a thing
Karen: You are correct, once I might admit something is wrong, I would indeed have to forfeit that principle. But to play devil's advocate here, first we would have to determine who gets to decide the definition of "wrong". Just because the majority might think something is so doesn't make it Fact or Truth. Because to the individual doing the torturing, he or she may genuinely, in their heart and soul, may not find anything wrong at all about their beloved past time or choice in activities.
Jeffrey Bond: Yes, but if someone who tortures babies sincerely believes he is doing something good, wouldn't we say he is mistaken regardless of how he feels about it?
Greg: I definitely don't feel qualified to enter into this discussion, HOWEVER... obviously, once someone's "own" desires violate someone else's, that's when you essentially lose that right. Like murder, theft, and torturing babies. But when you're just shootin' some love out into the universe, and not forcing it on to a target that doesn't want it, you're not violating anyone's rights and therefore free to do it. I'd think.
Jeffrey Bond: Who determines the question of when a "violation" has taken place? If we say "to each their own," then we cannot say that murder, theft or torturing babies is wrong. Greg seems to be suggesting there is an objective standard of right and wrong, which would mean that "to each their own" cannot be a guiding principle in life.
Karen: I, personally, agree with you, yes. I am one of the last who would ever be one to hop on board the baby-torturing train. I just think its isn't up to me to decide that he is mistaken.
September 6 at 9:33pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Oops, posted under Joel's profile
September 6 at 9:33pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Anyways, since you are pretty tall, you should be able to wear pretty much any height of boot...which is not true of everyone.
September 6 at 9:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's funnier if I imagine Joel saying that.
September 6 at 9:33pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Part III
Jeffrey Bond: Would you really not try to stop someone who was torturing a baby?
Karen: Of course not! I plan on having at least 25 myself and adopting the rest of the one's that need a loving home! My point is just who am I to make that an all-mighty, omnipotent definition of right or wrong, mistaken or all-knowing?
Jeffrey Bond: Ah. But do you see that your principle of "to each their own" was in fact an attempt to identify an all-mighty universal statement about right and wrong? The problem is, that principle really can't guide our lives (as you just indicated when you acknowledged that you would not follow such a principle if you saw someone torturing a baby).
Jeffrey Bond: My point is this. We cannot avoid attempting to determine what is right and wrong, because even a principle like "to each their own" is such an attempt. It just happens to be one that contradicts itself and therefore cannot be true.
Karen: I realize this brings us back to our original debate; I am no longer allowing this man or woman to practice their own beliefs by interfering and placing my own values into the equation by trying to remove the baby from the situation. This example contradicts the principle I am in favor of practicing. Naturally, I don't mean to be a hypocrite, as I am sure no one ever intends to be. But I haven't come across a better "solution" so to speak for how to coexist as well as when I have practiced the "to each his own principle". And in more times than not, fortunately, the circumstances and situations I encourage myself to apply this principle in are not nearly as extreme as torturing a baby. Rather it just helps to remind me that there is more than one "right" way to live, even if its different than mine. Just because its not my way or a way I may not be able to see eye to eye on, doesn't mean its wrong or beneath mine.
Jeffrey Bond: I have to get some sleep. But I would love to continue this conversation at another time if you are interested. You have a good heart and I'm glad to hear you plan on having 25 children! Peace be with you!
Karen: Absolutely! I always welcome intelligent conversation. Its essential, quite frankly. Thank you for such kind words as well! Peace be with you and your family too Dr. Bond.
David: I had to read these comments 3 times but that was easily the coolest debate I've ever encountered
Karen: Thanks David.
September 6 at 9:33pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil He was not very happy about it.
September 6 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey-- Caleb has reported similar unwillingness among students to actually make universal moral claims
September 6 at 9:35pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Especially given the subject matter.
September 6 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yep, they all think Joel gives excellent fashion advice now
September 6 at 9:37pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think I'll go with the tall ones. Thanks, Catherine!
September 6 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^They all think rightly then.
September 6 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If you get sucked in, then I'll never quit. And I keep telling myself I'm about to quit...
September 6 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks, Joel! You're right, I *am* pretty tall!
September 6 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: thanks for that.
September 6 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Was it on this thread that this was being discussed long ago? Or was it another thread of yours?
September 6 at 9:41pm · Like
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Joel HF Jeffrey Bond, in my (limited) experience, the default position of people (these days, at least, but perhaps always) has been rank hypocrisy.
September 6 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I haven't seen much of that. The vast majority of my students are very earnest. They are just deeply confused.
September 6 at 9:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe A lot of Caleb's students, though, when pushed, would rather admit their their moral norms are actually just moral preferences than say there is objective right and wrong
September 6 at 9:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isn't that crazy??
September 6 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Samantha, I think you should get the shorter boots
September 6 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (I refuse to be scared away)
September 6 at 9:44pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond It has been the norm in my experience.
September 6 at 9:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How can lazy moral relativism be the norm? What the hell happened?
September 6 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Plato's cave tells the story quite well, I think.
September 6 at 9:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Don't they all hate "bigotry," though? Everything is relative, except of course a denial that all is relative. Or so it seems to me.
September 6 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Because we are now the last men.
September 6 at 9:45pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The hollow men
September 6 at 9:46pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe They will tie themselves up in knots coming up with a way to condemn bigotry, that's true
September 6 at 9:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you ask them about racism and same sex marriage and economic inequality they seem very sure. Is slavery wrong? They say yes.
I don't buy it. They are torn, to be sure, by a stupid relativism but most students like most people are not really so.
September 6 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But bigotry just means thinking some things are always wrong.
September 6 at 9:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, they will condemn it, like they condem torturing babies, but if pushed they will say that their condemnation is personal, not objective.
September 6 at 9:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley And bigotry is always wrong.
September 6 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Our public discourse is full of claims about justice.
September 6 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I agree there is no agreement and mass confusion re what the basis of morality is or even can or could be, of course.
September 6 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, but if you press them, as I did Karen in the dialogue I posted, my experience is that they will return to the subjective level, even on racism, same-sex marriage, etc.
September 6 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I need more experience in the classroom.
September 6 at 9:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Look at what Karen says about torturing babies. She is not personally for it, of course, but she cannot say it is wrong for anyone else.
September 6 at 9:50pm · Like
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Joel HF It is also full of relativism. One of the reasons radical Islam gets treated differently by many (but not all) moderns, is the desire to be inclusive and not to judge other cultures. Of course, against that you have people like Hitchens or whoever claiming that all religion is evil absolutely. But he's fighting people largely on his side--i.e. elite liberal westerners.
September 6 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond How long have you been teaching?
September 6 at 9:50pm · Like
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Joel HF Then there is Pater Edmund, who seems to just have a thing for Iran.
September 6 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley "I will speak unto them of the most contemptible thing: that, however, is THE LAST MAN!"
And thus spake Zarathustra unto the people:
It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the germ of his highest hope.
Still is his soil rich enough for it. But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon.
Alas! there cometh the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond man—and the string of his bow will have unlearned to whizz!
I tell you: one must still have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: ye have still chaos in you.
Alas! There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There cometh the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.
Lo! I show you THE LAST MAN.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?"—so asketh the last man and blinketh.
The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest."
September 6 at 9:51pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I have not had this experience. I do think Matthew brought it up a long while ago. I am surprised. But it is the conclusion of the principles that govern public discourse and law.
September 6 at 9:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley "But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon."
September 6 at 9:52pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I don't know how many of you have the time (or inclination) to actually read more than my introduction to my dialogue with Karen that I posted above, but I would be grateful to any of you who would read the whole thing to see if it conforms with your experience. For me, this conversation is absolutely typical. If your experience is otherwise, I would be very interested to know how your students react when pressed in the same way.
September 6 at 10:02pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger That is actually shocking and explains a lot. I have seen this on one FB heated debate where the ultimate ground for a particular pro abortion position was that individual choice was the first principle of moral action.
September 6 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't have students because I don't teach. I interact with adults of various ages in my job. But I've found that the older ones also suffer from the same inability to firmly come down on a side.
"whatever makes you happy" is more the phrase I hear
September 6 at 10:04pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger However I have not had a class in which I pressed this question.
September 6 at 10:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia in a blue collar business, a lot of the personal ribbing that goes on between men is calling each other homosexual in one way or another. In the last several years the more frequent response has been "but is it wrong?"
September 6 at 10:05pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Do you ever challenge that principle by pointing out that one cannot consistently defend "whatever makes you happy" when two people are made happy by opposed actions, say the child's desire to avoid the abuser and the abuser's desire to abuse the child?
September 6 at 10:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia frankly, I usually call them F*CKING IDIOTS who all went to Catholic school and should know better
September 6 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer So what's up? Been off the thread for a bit, after we were discharged.
September 6 at 10:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but then again, no one will engage me in debate at work
September 6 at 10:07pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Quite a healthy response (in my subjective opinion)
September 6 at 10:07pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley That was my experience too, Michael, in an environment that allowed for more heated arguments.
September 6 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the F-word is like salt to food at my work. it is added to everything
September 6 at 10:08pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Good opportunity to expose the problem. You want to debate--that makes you happy. They don't want to debate--that makes them happy. Can they really agree that both sides are right? Someone is going to be left unhappy.
September 6 at 10:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The funniest thing was the Texas style liberals (complete with sidearm) ranting about how all republicans were racist when I was the only one who had hispanic/black/etc. friends.
September 6 at 10:10pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I have more success with discussing Obama and the adulation he receives from the black community in Chicago, with members of the black community in Chicago
September 6 at 10:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I am surprised you are still alive.
September 6 at 10:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny how parochial the average American liberal is
September 6 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia several of my co-workers live on the south side, consequently are black and there is an odd respect that you get when they realize that you aren't from "there"
September 6 at 10:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley He wants racial equality, but heaven forbid that he interact with members of other races in anything besides a professional environment.
September 6 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia people from the West don't have the inborn racism that white Chicagoans have
September 6 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh and BTW Joel, I am from Idaho. wanna guess how many times I've seen Built to Spill?
September 6 at 10:14pm · Like
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Joel HF How many? (Only once for me.)
September 6 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia conservatively? 30
September 6 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Wow!
September 6 at 10:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia they used to play almost every Thursday night at the all-ages club in Boise called "the crazy horse" that, alas, turned into a gay bar right after high school called "bacchus cabaret"
September 6 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I am of the opinion that Iran ought to develop nuclear power generation. They need it both to continue developing as a country, providing power and clean water as well as continuing their only major export, oil. They lack the natural gas resources to continue a natural growth curve As a nation going through industrialization.
September 6 at 10:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's funny that even Zizek recognizes that "tolerance" is the only virtue left in the West
September 6 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger I can say that folks in northern Wisconsin have not lost their moral compass to that degree. It is refreshingly down to earth up here. But even Eau Claire is not so.
September 6 at 10:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But absolute majority rule is preferred mode of government?
September 6 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John, are you near Wasau?
September 6 at 10:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I would think that a totalitarian set of rules would be preferred by those that do not wish to establish or push their view on others
September 6 at 10:21pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger and intolerance the only vice.
September 6 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 90 miles
September 6 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The only sin is tobacco cigarettes
September 6 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Here are the fundamental moral principles of the students I see year in and year out:
1. No one should impose his views on anyone else.
2. Everyone should be tolerant of all points of view.
3. Everyone should be free to do whatever he likes as long as he does not hurt anyone else.
4. Everyone should be open-minded.
5. Nonconformity is better than conformity.
6. Democracy is the best form of government.
7. There is no absolute truth. What's "true" for you may not be what is "true" for me.
All of these principles, when understood as they are understand by my students, are self-contradictory, because they all rest on the relativist principle set forth in number 7. Yet they repeat them like they are the 10 commandments.
September 6 at 10:22pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Built to Spill on ensoulment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlgzqTRv7Ec
Built to Spill - Cleo
There's Nothing Wrong With Love
YOUTUBE.COM
September 6 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill When simple examples break the rules, how do they respond? Confused, hostile?
September 6 at 10:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Confused.
September 6 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond And when you show them the contradiction in their position, the vast majority of them continue to hold that position.
September 6 at 10:27pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Do they attempt to establish answers?
September 6 at 10:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond My experience has convinced me that Plato's cave allegory is fundamentally correct, and the seven principles above are the shadows of the American cave.
September 6 at 10:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The allegory works, no doubt. How often do people wish to leave the cave?
September 6 at 10:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I see one or two per year who want out.
September 6 at 10:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Thx 1138. The cave wants to keep you there
September 6 at 10:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The cave dwellers want to stay there.
September 6 at 10:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or any other modern interpretations of the cave. Such as matrix or the Lego movie
September 6 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The Truman Show
September 6 at 10:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yup
September 6 at 10:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I prefer the Lego movie as a remake of the matrix... It is a fight to leave.
September 6 at 10:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill And once out there isn't much there to support except knowing.
September 6 at 10:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The modern cave seems much more powerful than the original version exposed by Plato.
September 6 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I guess this is the problem with tac and supporting graduates once out.
September 6 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill "Now what"
September 6 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Jeffrey Bond: I've taught two sections of Phil 201&202 at CUA (required for all first year students). I focus on ethics and politics for the courses, and my experience was that at least 1/3rd of the students disagree with moral relativism even before taking the courses.
September 6 at 10:34pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond That is quite amazing. Can they make the argument against it? Or do they simply oppose it out of a kind of instinct?
September 6 at 10:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond These students must have been visited by Hermes and given the holy moly to protect them against the seductive wiles of Circe.
September 6 at 10:43pm · Like · 2
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Dominic Bolin Several have argued against the inconsistency of moral relativism in a way similar to the one you pointed out: e.g. you can't consistently hold both that morals are subjective and that you can do whatever as long as you don't hurt someone else. Some of the others weren't sure how to defend it initially, but agreed with the arguments after they were presented. And then there were some that didn't seem to be sure whether they should be relativists or not (they wanted to agree with both sides). The remaining 30-40% were quite convinced of moral relativism even after these discussions. I don't think they ever changed their mind (at least not while I had them for class).
September 6 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond If over 50% are leaving having been convinced that moral relativism is inherently self-contradictory, then there is hope.
September 6 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I can convince many of them that moral relativism is self-contradictory, and I can even get some to repeat the arguments and seemingly understand them, but most of them slip back to their original relativism once they have been away from the discussion for a period of time. Very few really make the position their own.
September 6 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Where I taught relativism was not a problem and I had not realized how pervasive it was. I had imbibed some of its flavors. But it is impossible maybe to fully shake off.
September 6 at 10:59pm · Edited · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Jeffrey Bond - your concerns are normative. This year, teaching Seniors, I am going through Thomas Dubay's Faith and Certitude. I couldn't recommend it more highly for dealing with those precise issues. Chapter 6 - the Origins of Error - is particularly compelling.
September 6 at 11:02pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I will check it out. Thank you.
September 6 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I had some while ago read Testem Benevolentiam and its a check list of some of my faults, more than one that relates to relativism. It is in our air and water and mother's milk.
September 6 at 11:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne These are the 10 questions I just assigned for Ch. 6 - I think it will give you a feel for what I am getting at:
Faith and Certitude - Thomas Dubay
Chapter 6 Questions
1. Should we accept error as something “normal”? Why or why not?
2. According to physical laws, should a stick in the water appear to be bent? How does answering that question help us to understand whether or not our senses truly deceive us?
3. In the example of the fruit tree, what was the origin of the author’s error when he declared “Look at the gorgeous apples”?
4. Dubay lists six common reasons that we often assert what we have not really seen, heard or studied. Please list these six reasons - your list does not have to be in complete sentences. (Hint: there are 6 paragraphs in a row explaining them).
5. At the bottom of page 90, Dubay says “An ignorance of one’s ignorance is a depressing disease.” We all suffer from this at times. How is it possible to combat this “disease”?
6. What does it mean to say “men go by their sympathies, not by argument”?
7. “American folk wisdom excludes anything that cannot be placed on a poster or bumper sticker and read at a glance.” Dubay says men everywhere show the same trait. Why?
8. Why does sin cloud perception? Do we reach reality as a whole person or as a detached intellect?
9. What are the three main reasons people leave the Church?
10. “It seems clear enough that if sexual activities leading to intercourse and coitus itself were unpleasant or simply neutral, no one would have any problem seeing that contraception is both unnatural and evil.” Explain how we rationalize sexual behavior through “autokiddery” (kidding oneself) - using the example of those who claimed the ruling purpose of their own intercourse was the unselfish “enrichment of their partner’s personality”.
September 6 at 11:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz WRT to the Virgin birth, the whole sun shining through glass analogy, which is directly from Augustine btw, is used in the Roman Catechism and has some magisterial support. It isn't merely a pious belief. That doesn't mean it is a dogma, but it does mean that it deserves a little more respect. I would dare call it at the least probabilior, or even well-founded, meaning it would be impudence to mock it or dismiss it lightly, but possible to reject after considered thought.
She was virgin, before, DURING and after. If the Church saw the need to say "during" there must be some sense, even if only incidental, in which virginity could have been harmed/lost in giving birth, no?
I don't know if the passage has been brought up, but St. Thomas explains the matter of virginity being the exclusion of having experienced sexual motions of the generative parts, with the form being the exclusion of any wilful sexual motion of said parts (so self-abuse means you are not a virgin, but rape doesn't mean that... you would remain, formally, a virgin)
Now for the perfection of virginity Aquinas says one needs both mental and physical integrity. Sometimes he does refer to physical intactness as the matter, other times only as perfecting, making the matter as I said above.
Mary would be a virgin formally, obviously, and this suffices to be a true virgin, in the moral sense. But she would also be a virgin material, in that she would not have experienced such motions even involuntarily. The physical intactness would be a further perfection of the matter, though Aquinas himself notes how an incision, say by a sword, would no more affect the matter of virginity than being cut in the hand.
Actually, let me post this more. Aquinas fleshes this out more in some places. Seeing that the integrity of the mind, i.e. the formal and moral aspect of virginity is the more essential, the material integrity is 3 fold
1. Purely bodily- St. Thomas says this is not the matter of any virtue or vice, except accidentally, as mediating some passion of the soul. unde si per aliquam incisionem claustra pudoris rumpantur, non majus detrimentum virginitati inerit quam si pes aut manus gladio incideretur ("whence if by some incision the hymen is broken, there would not be a greater detriment to virginity than if the foot or hand were cut by the sword.")
So rupturing the hymen is only a matter of virginity, WHEN the rupture is actually caused by the sexual activity. Otherwise it has just about nothing to do with it. But its intactness would be a visible sign that such activity has not occurred, even if its absence is no sure sign that it has
2. The second element of its matter, is the venereal motion itself, from whence sexual pleasure arises.
3. Is the passion of the soul that subjects reason to itself
Only these last two pertain per se to the matter of vice and virtue. It is possible, it seems, to affirm the dogma and hold that the rupturing of the hymen by birth would be like an incision, not relevant to virginity. But then one would have to explain the importance of the DURING. You could easily explain the physical part, as being far broader than the hyman. So just the "during" part needs explanation....
September 6 at 11:58pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Samantha Cohoe, I had a talk I have once that went into a lot of detail about Aquinas' view of generation and how just about everyone misrepresents it....it is not as simple as saying that it starts with a vegetable soul, and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by an animal soul, and whatever that thing is dies and is replaced by a man, but that does seem to be the case of what he is saying on a first reading.
I wish I could find that talk...even when I am the one who did the research, I am too lazy not to plagiarize myself....
September 7 at 12:04am · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Somehow I found a rough draft of the talk...
In question 65 of the Prima Pars of the Summa Theologica, Aquinas asks whether the substantial forms of corporeal beings are produced by the angels. St. Thomas explains two views he rejects. One is an emantionist view, which holds that there is a separated and subsisting form of man that is immaterial, and the immaterial man participates in this form, so that the matter receives its impression in a way. The same is held about life, and horse and any other formal aspect of a being. The other view, which he ascribes to Avicenna, is that the forms of corporeal things exist in the intelligences, or as we call them angels, the same way that the form of a statue exists in the artisan prior to making the statue.
He says both of these share a common error. They treat the substantial form as an entity itself, and hence tried to answer how the form itself was brought into being. Rather, it is the composite that comes into being. It is not the equine form that is made as some kind of substance itself which is then impressed on matter, but this horse that comes to be. This being the case, the cause must be looked for in another composite substance, and not a spiritual substance. A horse produces a horse. Angels are still involved, because he holds that the composite agent is moved by a created spiritual substance, but they are involved precisely by moving the corporeal agent. Hence the form does not emanate from them or arise from then apart from the corporeal agent. Rather, the potentiality of matter for this form is brought into act by the composite agent. The created spiritual substance moves it to that form, but does not replace the material agent. Further the species of these forms is referred back to God as the first cause. Only the first production of a corporeal creature involved God immediately producing the form, because matter only obeys His command there. But once nature exists, it is the reason for the reproduction of that nature.
In question 118 of the prima pars we move to the production of the soul. St. Thomas affirms that the sensitive soul (the soul of animals) is not produced by an act of creation, but through the agent reproducing. The argument to the contrary, he states, rests on the premise that an animal soul is simple and self-subsisting. If this were true, then it would have to be made through creation. He denies the premise because, as he argued earlier, the animal soul does not subsist. The reason is that in brute animals, who have sensation but no intellect, there is no operation that is not involved with some organ. Since every operation then is of the composite acting as a unity, there is no per-se operation of the animal soul. Since being follows upon operation, there is no warrant to claim that the animal soul is subsistent. It must then perish with the body.
Because of this it is not proper to speak of the animal soul being made, but rather the composite being made. It is the composite that exists, not the animal soul, except inasmuch as the existence of the composite is through the form. Hence, the soul is produced in the matter through corporeal agency, similar to non living things. The semen acts as a medium in the case of reproduction, it is an instrument of the generator. For St. Thomas the semen has a force that acts on the foetal matter given by the woman. The foetal matter has vegetative life and takes in nourishment. The force of the influence of the semen transmutes it until in some principal part the sensitive soul is present (the sensitive soul is not in the semen, but effect by the semen). Once this happens the semen is no longer exists as the semen gets dissolved. If we adapt his explanation to modern science, we may say that when the sperm joins the egg a change is effected such that in a principal part (say the nuclei of the egg) the form is already present. From thence, the substantial form in the body is able to work to the perfection of that body without any more need of influence from any sperm.....
September 7 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz In the next article we find that we cannot say this about the human soul. Indeed, St. Thomas say that it is heretical to believe that the human soul is generated by the semen. The reason is that the human soul is intellectual. Now the intellect has an operation this does not involve the body, such as happens in understanding universals. Since this is the case, a material agent could never produce it. Further, this being the case, that it has a per se operation apart from the body, it is subsistent unlike the animal soul. Being simple and subsistent it needs be created by God. This holds true in every instance of human generation, not merely the creation of the first man.
Several objections are raised. The most important is the second. In man there is one and the same soul according to substance, intellective, sensitive and nutritive. But the sensitive soul is generated in man by the semen, just as in other animals, whence also the philosopher says in his book on the generation of animals that animal and man are not made at the same time, but first an animal is made having a sensitive soul. Therefore the intellective soul is also caused from the semen.
St. Thomas’ answer here is very informative. He rejects two positions pretty quickly. One is that the vital operations of the embryo are caused by the mother or the semen. But this cannot be because nourishment, growth, etc cannot be caused from an exterior principle. So at least the
nutritive soul is present in the embryo from the get-go. He rejects also that there are three souls in man, where the intellectual soul stands as act to the sensitive soul, which stands as act to the nutritive soul. This is rejected because one must reject really the notion of substantial form to hold it.
The third position he argues at length against. This holds that the same soul evolves from nutritive, to sensitive and to intellectual. This position even affirms God doing this.
He rejects this for several reasons. One is that substantial form does not admit of more or less. By adding or subtracting we get a different species, just as by take a species of number, say 5, and adding unity, we no longer have the same species but a new one, viz. 6. The same identical form cannot belong to multiple species for an obvious reason that either the form would not be the same, or the species would be identical. Second, an animal would come to be in a continuous motion. But in substantial change we do not have a lapse of time. Either this thing is a man or isn’t. He may be a man who is bleeding to death, but he is still fully a man while he is a man. Third, this would not be generation, which is always the bringing of a new thing into the matter and hence the end of an old thing, This against what we observe in nature. Lastly, we must either say that the intellectual soul is subsistent in which case it needs be distinct from the pre-existing form it evolved from or that like the pre-existing form it is not subsistent, but that is false.
September 7 at 12:38am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz St. Thomas states (I didn't have the citation in there)
Certain people have understood the body of man to be formed prior in time and afterward that God poured the soul into the already formed body. But this is against the ratio of the perfection of the first institution of things, that God should make either the body without the soul or the soul without the body, since both are part of human nature. And this is also even more unfitting of the body, which depends on the soul and not conversely.
September 7 at 12:39am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz My lazines meant massive c&p...but I do think my thoughts from the past-me were helpful to present-me and may to some of you. Especially after seeing the question raised about the ascension/descension of souls
September 7 at 12:41am · Like
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John Kunz Pretty sure TNET has met its quota for use & misuse of hymen. Next topic?
September 7 at 12:51am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz What about my last 5 posts? That was about ensoulment/ embryonic development
September 7 at 12:59am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger It seems impossible to say the zygote is not an human person (ensouled) though rational in potentia without rejecting the notion of substantial form. But that (rational in potentia) is little different from the nine month stage.
September 7 at 8:03am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Does this mean we get to return to twinning? TNET is Ground Hogs Day wherefore it can be said to be never ending.
September 7 at 8:07am · Like
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John Ruplinger I would like to point out my earlier contention that while discussing this matter is interesting and helpful, at the same time it is beyond our capacity and that is fitting. For as pointed out in Job, the foundations of the world are inscrutable. How much moreso the new creation of a human soul which is of more worth than all visible creation, being eternal? (False assumptions about creation and the immutability of the laws of physics really set all "scientific" theories about origins on tenuous (or ignorant) grounds as an example.)
September 7 at 8:37am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger oh and while the thread is dead, while I appreciate the criticism of my anti evolutionary position which admits speciation, I have sound reasons and am as immoveable by mere hypotheses as the earth before Galileo. Anyways my sentimental syllogism is hard to overcome: i am comfy dwelling in the notion of an 8000 year old earth and with the thought that Adam named many of the same animals I name.
September 7 at 8:57am · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram Uh oh! TNET is dying?! It is time to inject it with life through sneaky underhanded means!
Modesty in women's dress - a good thing, or the BEST thing, ladies, amirite?
(hee hee hee)
September 7 at 9:11am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia define "modesty". are you going burka levels, or tastefully covered?
September 7 at 9:30am · Like
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John Ruplinger burka or bust baby. Lets blow up this thread. What does thomas say?
September 7 at 9:34am · Like
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Jeff Neill Breast feeding in public without a cover is modest
Get over the fact that a baby is eating on an uncovered female.
Clothing is a primarily a tool for function, secondarily a tool for beauty to complement the human form.
September 7 at 9:46am · Edited · Like · 2
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David Upham I do know this: if you want to see grossly IMMODEST--go to the TAC campus.
September 7 at 9:43am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Immodesty is an effect of passion not action. So the person wearing "what is immodest" is never immodest to themselves.
September 7 at 9:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill Further, The concept of modesty is the only outward effect of the fall. (All that other stuff about pain in childbirth and other such crap is hogwash)
September 7 at 9:52am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger distinguo: modesty as safeguarding purity and modesty as temperance in our relations to others (including dress and due proportion or a mean between slovenly appearance and drawing excessive attention to externals.)
September 7 at 9:55am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/.../new-line-of-sleek-sexy.../
New Line Of Sleek, Sexy Ankle Length Jean Jumpers Stirs Up Controversy At 2014...
EYEOFTHETIBER.COM
September 7 at 9:54am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger Re modesty as a safeguard of the virtue of purity, reason establishes the norms after which custom works out acceptable habiliments. That is how I understand Aquinas.
September 7 at 10:00am · Like
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Jeff Neill Complementing the human form, would mean complementing the externals as beautiful.
The athlete is not immodest. For example:
I do not believe a triathlete is ever immodest. Running, swimming, cycling.
However you a person moves to the category of morbidly obese, the human form requires more clothing to complement the lack of form.
September 7 at 10:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger Modesty as a safeguard to the purity of another may actually fall under justice and not merely the virtue of temperance.
September 7 at 10:06am · Like
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John Ruplinger BUT JEFF. What of the functional aspect you mention? What are clothes for?
September 7 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Therefore, "burka burka burka"?
Sounds like the problem is in the formation of the individual and an over emphasized sense of modesty is actually destructive to purity
September 7 at 10:12am · Like
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Jeff Neill Weather protection, shoes, socks (when's angles don't suffice) leg covers if you may get scratched
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John Ruplinger burka was a joke.
September 7 at 10:14am · Like
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Jeff Neill Complementing human form
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Jeff Neill I know I laughed
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Jeff Neill All clothing is part of rationality, however clothing for modesty is a result of the fall
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John Ruplinger But why any clothes for Venus on a temperate day in the shade?
September 7 at 10:16am · Like
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Jeff Neill Being a work of man it can be done better or worse; therefore some cloths can be for beauty sake. Venus wearing flowers in her hair counts. Also the sun may move.
September 7 at 10:17am · Like
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Jeff Neill Disrobing in the heat and standing in the shade is not uncommon
September 7 at 10:18am · Like
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Jeff Neill However if you create a culture that says anything less than a burka is immodest, and would cause impurity, and people were raised in that culture is it not true?
September 7 at 10:22am · Like
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Jeff Neill Thus like my link above if you raise your children to believe modesty means ankle length jean jumpers, than truly anything less is immodest
September 7 at 10:23am · Like
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John Ruplinger [We have forgotten, nor will get to, modesty as temperance (in speech, gesture and dress etc) in our relation with others.] Let me suggest that reason does give minimal limits as to what ought to be covered. They are set by what tempts the weaker sex (in this regard) to impure thoughts (and I am not speaking of those who make no attempt to guard the eyes.)
September 7 at 10:35am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill What?
September 7 at 10:25am · Like
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Jeff Neill "No nipples and pubic hair" start with that as the reasonable limit
September 7 at 10:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill I've lived and worked in Huntington Beach where string bikinis are street wear... It's the beach
September 7 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill As my wife would say "sufficient length that you don't flash you hoo-ha if you bend over"
September 7 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Thank God I broke you from that habit, Jeff. Good thing you married me.
September 7 at 10:31am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Prudish people make sin.
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Jeff Neill You're beautiful Liz. Flaunt what your maker gave you.
September 7 at 10:33am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill My knees are quite pretty. Thank you
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Jeff Neill I put this in my thesis at tac as well.
September 7 at 10:34am · Like
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John Ruplinger so you are fine with your 12 year old daughter wearing bandaids + thong?
September 7 at 10:37am · Like
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Liz Neill Ace bandage??? Sure! Totally kidding.
September 7 at 10:38am · Like
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Jeff Neill Front yard or back yard?
September 7 at 10:41am · Like
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Jeff Neill I believe dressing appropriately for the situation. For example, I rarely wear shorts, unless it is for sports.
September 7 at 10:44am · Like
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John Ruplinger But do you think Aquinas and Pius XI are wrong to point out that norms for fashion shouldn't be taken from a morally corrupt culture like the cannibals of Hawaii as opposed to the full length dresses of traditional Ugandans?
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Jeff Neill They dressed for their climate. Not immodest
September 7 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Ugandans?
September 7 at 10:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill Videos and photos of tribesmen are not immodest until you take them from their environment and culture and placed them in European culture.
September 7 at 10:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger BTW Hawaii is very temperate. Houstonians should be stark naked by that argument.
September 7 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What is the definition of modesty that people are going off of?
September 7 at 10:51am · Like
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Jeff Neill But the houstonians would get sun burned....
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John Ruplinger i raised it above DL. I would be happy with a better
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Jeff Neill The problem with setting the definition of modesty in the other is that the culture the other is raised in is the standard of modesty.
September 7 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, as I understand Aquinas, modesty would fall under the virtue of temperance, and (stated negatively) would involve a habitual disposition where one does not draw undue attention to oneself.
September 7 at 10:55am · Like
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Jeff Neill Therefore prudish people in a commune are creating a cultural standard.
September 7 at 10:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Yep.
September 7 at 10:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill The need for normalization is across the culture falling to less than the standard is immodest
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Daniel Lendman Modesty is not just with regard to dress, but all actions.
September 7 at 10:57am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Yes. But when we typically speak of modesty that is never what it is about. Instead it is a matter that falls under justice.
September 7 at 10:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, a Victorian era woman would likely sin against modesty if she wore pants. Nowadays, there would be no sin.
Likewise, a Victorian era man would likely sin against modesty if he were out in his garden without a shirt on. Nowadays, not so much.
September 7 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John, that is precisely the problem, I think.
September 7 at 11:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Placing modesty under justice quickly leads to a kind of tyranny of the offended.
September 7 at 11:00am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Yes
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Jeff Neill That is the exact problem and why that flawed thinking ends in burka burka burka
September 7 at 11:01am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Prudish people make the sin
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Daniel Lendman Moreover, I do not think that one needs to bring in the account of justice in order to make standards of modesty considerate of others. All virtues are always understood in a social setting. The definition of modesty, as I proposed, takes society into account.
September 7 at 11:04am · Like
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John Ruplinger not so much. . . . but some societies are not to be used as guides. I am not appealing to another society especially the current.
September 7 at 11:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman There are certain challenges in popular western culture because it has become acceptable (in many instances) to where clothing that deliberately draws undue attention. That, however, would be something that we could not allow.
September 7 at 11:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, I do think you are right that there are some cultures which are "better" objectively and should be seen as further human development in a real way.
The naked tribes of Africa, while in no way sinning against modesty, nevertheless, hardly seem something to aim at.
September 7 at 11:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In general, however, I think one can allow for broad variations in dress that will still be modest.
Bikinis, for example, are not inherently immodest. At the beach they are acceptable. Some, Bikinis, however, deliberately try to excite too much attention. Is there a line? No. A lot has to do with the interior disposition of the wearer and his/her behavior and bearing.
September 7 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Better societies? Bull crap
September 7 at 11:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Why?
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John Ruplinger Let me suggest that long dresses need not be prudish and i have observed such. Because some are so does not mean all are.
September 7 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Given that man has as a certain end, aren't some societies better at helping man achieve his end than others?
September 7 at 11:11am · Like
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Jeff Neill You are in your culture where you are at right now. The standard of society changes in the seasons.
September 7 at 11:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Granted.
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Daniel Lendman But...
September 7 at 11:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given that man has as a certain end, aren't some societies better at helping man achieve his end than others?
September 7 at 11:11am · Like
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Jeff Neill No.
September 7 at 11:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, for example: I think that polygamist societies are not as conducive to human flourishing as monogamist societies. In particular, it seems that women tend, on a whole, to suffer in attaining human fulfillment.
September 7 at 11:13am · Like
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Jeff Neill What tyranny of society do you wish to impose on all others?
September 7 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Therefore, I would say that monogamist societies (in general) are better than polygamist societies.
September 7 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, careful about the gap between is and ought.
September 7 at 11:14am · Like
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Jeff Neill Creating an "ought" is artificial
September 7 at 11:15am · Like
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John Ruplinger Moreover, is a certain minimal norm for modesty prerequisite to developing the more important aspects of the virtue of modesty?
September 7 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Simply because a monogamist society is better, it does not mean that one can impose monogamy from on high on a polygamist society.
My only point is that a monogamist society comes closer to a nor form human flourishing than a polygamist society.
September 7 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No
September 7 at 11:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think I am being controversial.
September 7 at 11:16am · Like
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Catherine Ryland It seems there are several aspects to be considered before wearing clothes: 1) protection from the elements 2) hygiene 3) convention 4) awareness of concupiscence, one's own or others' 5) aesthetic values
September 7 at 11:18am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman John, I think that is an excellent question.
September 7 at 11:16am · Like
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Jeff Neill And add beauty of the human form Catherine.
September 7 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Okay!
September 7 at 11:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Certainly, very primitive tribes cannot even conceive of very high standards of human excellence in living. They are too busy surviving.
September 7 at 11:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But remember also that modesty does not simply pertain to clothing.
September 7 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland ^Exactly.
September 7 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As I defined it above, the virtue of modesty is a part of temperance whereby one does not draw undue attention to oneself.
September 7 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Positively put, one draws the right amount of attention, at the right time, in the right way.
September 7 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Brides should look gorgeous and catch everyone's attention.
September 7 at 11:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Monks, not so much.
September 7 at 11:20am · Like
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Jeff Neill Christ on the cross is immodest?
September 7 at 11:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^No.
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Jeff Neill Undo attention to self?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Did you actually read what I wrote?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Jeff Neill Excellent
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Do you think that Christ was drawing undue attention to himself?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Isn't that 'undue' pretty subjectively determined? For example, there are women in beautiful African costume who go to mass at my church. Sure they draw a lot of attention because they are dressing differently, but who is to say that it is too much or not?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Really?
September 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes, Catherine. But virtues, in particulars, are subjectively exercised and expressed.
September 7 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yeah here too, beautiful colorful African dresses and hats
September 7 at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "The mean for Milo..."
September 7 at 11:22am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland So there will always be a lot of gray area on what is modest and what is not.
September 7 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Externally speaking, yes.
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Just like with all of temperance.
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Jeff Neill Too little for milo
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is my drinking a bottle of wine intemperate?
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Catherine Ryland ^Clearly not.
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Likely, you can't know.
September 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Until you try it anyway.
September 7 at 11:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unless I clearly act like a drunk afterward.
September 7 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Thus the problem with ideal societies and modesty of the ideal do not apply, since it is not real
September 7 at 11:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For the record: One bottle is not intemperate for me, in my experience.
September 7 at 11:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, I don't understand what you are saying.
September 7 at 11:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Can you explain more?
September 7 at 11:25am · Like
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Catherine Ryland There's no one standard that could apply to all societies.
September 7 at 11:26am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland All of the 5 points on dress I stated above are all variable.
September 7 at 11:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger Modesty concerns actions, words and dress in Daniel's. Of course I am Chaucerian in that our attire reveals our character and state, not good for me. But as to an ideal standard with room for variation i think Aquinas answers that.
September 7 at 11:28am · Like
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Catherine Ryland For example, I think naturist colonies can be modest because the convention is not to wear clothes, and people get used to the sight of a lot of flabby human bodies pretty quickly. Hygiene is an issue however, and protection from the elements...
September 7 at 11:32am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger NUDIST CAMPS. EUREKA!
September 7 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Oops, naturist colonies.
September 7 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It seems to me that this: "For example, there's no one standard that could apply to all societies."
Is only true if you think that there are no universally applicable characteristics of human flourishing.
September 7 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think there are.
September 7 at 11:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like in the monogamy v. polygamy example.
September 7 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Consequently, while certain virtues will be expressed differently in certain societies, it is still possible (though difficult) to objectively evaluate societies.
September 7 at 11:36am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why I said that there is no sin against modesty in the naked tribes of Africa.
September 7 at 11:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman However, I am also inclined to the position that it is easier to behave immodestly if one is not clothed.
September 7 at 11:38am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I agree with Daniel. The virtues are universal. Everyone ought to have the virtue of courage, for example. But how that virtue is exercised by any given person in any given situation will necessarily differ based on their size, age, gender, health, etc. That does not make the virtue itself subjective in any way. One cannot avoid the "ought" connected with virtue. That "ought" is not imposed by man; it is discerned.
September 7 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Well, said Jeffery.
September 7 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman (Particularly the part where you agreed with me.)
September 7 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman
September 7 at 11:40am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Hence, political communities that have laws and customs that help us achieve these virtues, which are natural to us, are definitely superior to societies that fail to do so.
September 7 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland ^just as long as they don't require burkas, or a certain kind of dress.
September 7 at 11:41am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Our political community, if it can even be given that name, has failed miserably in directing us to virtue.
September 7 at 11:42am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger re Aquinas he points to a then 2400 year variation for what appears to be norm. Is difficult to dress modesty in a culture that denies it as a virtue in any way.
September 7 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland The problem is that everyone is going to have a different idea of what virtue is virtue (even if they're wrong), and I'd rather my political community not have the power to dictate what to wear, for example, so that when the leaders who are in power are wrong, we don't have to comply.
September 7 at 11:44am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So the police should not have the authority to require a person walking naked down the street to cover himself?
September 7 at 11:45am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is one thing to say it is difficult to know where to draw the line, but it is quite another to say there is no such line.
September 7 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, I would argue that a political community that is legislating with regard to clothing, typically, is not adequately allowing for those thing that promote human flourishing.
September 7 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman One can promote modesty in other ways.
September 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Certainly better ways.
September 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We are never required to follow laws that are unjust. But simply because unjust laws can be made, do we want to throw out all laws?
September 7 at 11:48am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It does not seem unreasonable to legislate AGAINST certain clothing.
September 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But even there one must be careful.
September 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Right - the political community is composed of people. And people disagree. Increasingly disagree, ever more radically. To convince others, one must persuade them.
Laws about what people wear? Generally outside the extremes this is dictated by custom and culture, not legal regulation. Law isn't going to help you much here.
We built the largest Catholic cradle to graduate school educational system in this country. It still exists. There is a parish church in virtually every community. And they are all free to speak to these issues.
September 7 at 11:49am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Note that the boundaries for engaging in what are deemed appropriate kinds of persuasion are still set by the political community. Politics is there even when it decides to default on a given issue.
September 7 at 11:51am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond In Aristotelian terms, the people are the material cause of the political community, but the regime is the formal cause. It shapes the people according to a vision, even when that vision is that no one should shape anyone else.
September 7 at 11:53am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The Catholic Church (its human element, that is) has largely lost the will and the ability to speak to these issues--to persuade its people--precisely because it too has been shaped by the regime principle of "it's wrong to shape others". It's called Americanism.
September 7 at 11:58am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I guess the Catholic Church will die off here then and in most countries. I guess it can't survive without the force of law on its side, just like Jesus said.
September 7 at 12:00pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Too bad the Church is just too weak to change culture and laws.
September 7 at 12:01pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I am counting on you to come to its rescue, Matthew.
September 7 at 12:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Maybe the more radical Muslims are right and Iran is the model but just the wrong religion: maybe it's just a race to take power and legislate rightly if error has no rights and it is the office of the wise to rule...
September 7 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Now don't get sensitive on me.
September 7 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel, while it's true that modesty isn't under justice as a particular virtue. It and every other virtue falls under justice as a cardinal virtue.
Also, I think there are two ways of presenting modesty incorrectly: one focuses too much on individual freedom in action and the other focuses too much on dressing as a "political" action. But both aspects are important.
September 7 at 12:05pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Are not the Church and state partners in the need to form virtuous citizens? This does not mean a theocracy, but it also does not mean the modern understanding of separation of Church and state.
September 7 at 12:06pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I walk away for a couple hours and I miss out on the "fashion police" and totalitarian religious regimes?!?
September 7 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Walking away from TNET should clearly be outlawed.
September 7 at 12:09pm · Like · 7
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Jeff Neill As a former police officer, the last thing I would want to waste my time on is enforcement t of poor taste.
I prefer the safety of people.
September 7 at 12:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger you missed it Jeff. Consensus on TNET is that you must don the burka on TNET
September 7 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill As for the culture and society, there is formal and informal and right application of clothing to fit the environment both in form and function.
September 7 at 12:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Isak Dinesen gives a wonderful account of the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant missionaries' approach to the indigenous folks in Kenya on the issue of dress. The Protestants tried to make them all wear trousers. The Catholics did not. Clearly this relates to the Catholic vs. Protestant view of nature--utterly depraved for the Protestants; ordered to the good for the Catholics. So, yes, of course cultural difference must be taken into account when it comes to modesty (as many have said above). But that is not the same thing as saying everyone should simply wear whatever he wants.
September 7 at 12:14pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Black tie affair. (Wear whatever you want and would be appropriate)
September 7 at 12:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Construction site... Framing and finish painting. Wear whatever you want.
September 7 at 12:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The standards will be created to the task at hand.
September 7 at 12:17pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed, though I would say the standards are discerned, not created.
September 7 at 12:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Correct
September 7 at 12:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Form and function. Tuxedo t-shirts do not apply
September 7 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Created in the sense of making.
September 7 at 12:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Not legislating
September 7 at 12:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond My point is simply that the standards come to us from nature. Hence, we don't make them; we discern them. Then, having discerned them, legislation will naturally follow from that discernment. No society--not even the nudist colonies--can avoid legislating on these matters. But the virtue of prudence is needed to know the content of that legislation and how far it can and should go.
September 7 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I lived next to "Glen Eden Sun Club" in lake Elsinore, ca, shopped next to the residents at the grocery store and everything.... Do you know what they wear in public? Clothes. About the same quantity as anyone else.
September 7 at 12:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Why are prudish people the only ones that wish to legislate modesty?
September 7 at 12:32pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Growing up I attended A LOT of Lamaze classes, my mom taught them in our living room. On a weekly basis I watched film strips of child birth and learning the "Bradley method". There was no sense of immodesty since it was rightly ordered toward the purpose. However there is a time and place for naked folk birthing babies.
September 7 at 12:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger To be clear norms of modesty are governed by custom and limits set by the church.
September 7 at 12:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What limits set by the church?
September 7 at 12:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, I don't think anything I said was against that. Rather I referenced particularly how all virtues are understood and practiced in a society.
However, while that is important to remember how all virtues are in a sense "Justice" nevertheless, when one is trying to distinguish virtues that can be confusing.
September 7 at 1:00pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Modesty, it seems to me, is the mean between prudishness and lack of shame. And I agree with John's claim about the norms of modesty, but I think custom is generally a part of legislation broadly understood. Hence, I do not think it is only the prudish who want to legislate in these matters. All parties want to legislate, even when the legislation they want is the absence of such.
September 7 at 1:01pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Absence of legislation is legislation?
September 7 at 1:03pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Legislation in the broadest sense precedes the particular pieces of legislation that a political community promulgates. Legislation in this sense expresses and establishes the vision of the good of man that informs the particular pieces of legislation. I am thinking here of Socrates' account of the two-fold art of politics (legislation and justice) as set forth in Plato's Gorgias.
September 7 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In such an understanding, custom, for example, has the force of law.
September 7 at 1:08pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This idea is also found in Aristotle's Politics when he speaks of politics as the master art, the architectonic art which looks to the highest good of man and orders all the lesser arts accordingly.
September 7 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What force of law is in custom?
September 7 at 1:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "We are the makers of custom" H V
September 7 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond My mistake. It is in the opening of the Ethics where Aristotle makes this point about the architectonic art, but the idea is certainly implicit in the Politics.
September 7 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond As Henry V tells Kate when he proposes to kiss her, despite French custom to the contrary before a couple is married: "Nice customs curtsy to kings."
September 7 at 1:13pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill If it were not for concubisense would modesty exist?
September 7 at 1:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Great question.
September 7 at 1:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I think it wouldn't although I think that clothing would.
September 7 at 1:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Nudist colonies are ridiculous since they exposing the body to unnecessary risk of damage from the environment
September 7 at 1:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Purity as a virtue is in the control of emotions.
September 7 at 1:18pm · Like
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Pater Edmund #LetsGoIran: http://www.letsgoiran.com/iran-women-dress-code
Iran Women Dress Code | Women Cloth in Iran | Iranian Women Dress | Muslims...
LETSGOIRAN.COM|BY IRAN TOUR | IRAN TRAVEL
September 7 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Not to distract from the modesty discussion, but a while back Michael Beitia was accusing people of being universalist. But if one recalls his original comment that brought up the whole universalism issue, it was an argument for delayed ensoulment because of the high mortality rate of zygotes. But this is obviously a crypto-universalist argument. The unspoken premise is that it would be unfitting for millions of young people to go to hell without a chance at salvation. Hah Beitia! You have been umasked! Molinist! Jesuit! Semi-Pelagian! Liberal! Neo-Modernist! Freemason!
September 7 at 1:24pm · Unlike · 7
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Daniel Lendman Again, if modesty is defined as only drawing the right amount of attention at the right moment and in the right way, etc., then of course it would exist before the fall.
September 7 at 1:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Where is Andrew Whaley? Bring forth the great penises of western civilization!
September 7 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Recently had a somewhat similar discussion to this one re: responsibility of the state in moral matters - does anyone know how many states still have legislation on the books against adultery? (Answer - quite a few.) And to those who might find that odd, why is it illegal to steal someone's truck but legal to steal his wife? Why is it illegal to destroy someone's finances but legal to destroy her home?
September 7 at 2:09pm · Unlike · 1
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Sean Robertson I think it's absurd to posit modesty as completely relative to custom. Adam and Eve post-fall had to wear clothes. No human being today is better than them in that respect. Nudist colonies are not okay. Just because you're at the beach, it's all of a sudden okay to walk around in (essentially) your underwear? I think not. Admittedly the line is incredibly hard to find, and does likely vary somewhat from culture to culture, but that doesn't mean there is no line. Also, modesty is clearly about more than clothing, but I find people too often use that as an excuse to act as if it doesn't have a practical reflection in how they dress.
September 7 at 2:15pm · Unlike · 1
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Sean Robertson As for the legislation aspect, it generally seems like something that the state should not be involved with. But I have no problem with laws against public indecency, as long as they aren't out of control.
September 7 at 2:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The statue of David is more immodest in a leopard print thong than naked.
September 7 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I'd also note that the very same "cultural relativism" argument about modesty implies the conclusion that it might be immodest for a Saudi Arabian woman to wear anything less than a burka.
September 7 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Matthew J. Peterson, of Loyola, has raised the point that persuasion is needed to resolve disagreement. This may be true in politics, but not so much when it involves sacred Dogma and sophistry. On Sophistical Refutations points out that the most elementary of sophistries is to agree to a Truth, but just redefine what that Truth means. An example of this is to say you agree with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and that there is a Dogma, but then redefine what that Dogma teaches. In fact, the Dogma teaches that Mary, the person, body and soul, at the first moment of conception, was Immaculate, free from any privation of sanctifying grace. This is fitting, since Our Lord, the Divine Person, took his human nature from His Holy Mother. Some on this thread have sought to redfine what this means by saying that Mary was Immaculate only in soul but not in body, in order to prove another point about human biology. This is a heresy of course. It is a grave matter. Every Catholic is obliged on pain of sin to understand what the Catholic Dogmas mean and to give assent to them. Mary is the Seat of Wisdom and Mirror of Justice.
September 7 at 2:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley So why are you so critical of our attempts to understand the Catholic Dogmas?
September 7 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Bikinis not inherently immodest? As they are actually less fit for function and were soley designe for immodest reasons, I don't by that. Interesting that the Church always said it was inherently immodest for men and women to swim together.... Daniel Lendman
Also, I think it is a misreading to say modesty is about bringing undue attention. That is one thing modesty concerns, sure. So, frankly, if you wear victorian clothes to Mass, or eccentric old timey stuff, like cloaks, that is immodest.
It would be immodest for a guest at a wedding to dress so as to draw attention and stand out...not immodest, as such, for the bride.
It would indeed be immodest to wear ankle length dresses while swimming, and dangerous too. The necessity of function dictates a clothing that would be inappropriate elsewhere.
But modesty is more than about undue attention. That is to reduce it to the sin of singularity, or rather as the counter virtue of that sin. It is more than the sin of singularity though. It does have to do with the right dress, at the right time, at the right place, and there are objective norms...the Church was explicit about it not being culturally determined in toto. So I am not so sure that those African tribes could be called anything other than immodest, even though they would not be accused of singularity because of the cultural context.
The Church takes this very seriously. Though ignored, we are told to deny the immodestly dressed communion, and in extreme cases throw them out of Church, if this can be done without disrupting the liturgy. And whilst cultural norms were changing, the Church insisted in condemning these norms, not saying that modesty was changing as to its measure, but condemning the changes. But we ignore that
How about this statement, nudity is always sinful in public, or in front of a member of the opposite sex, excluding your spouse, except for grave reason? That is taught universally in Catholic morality, but I find even that being doubted. Bizarre how far we have fallen here.
And yes the state has a duty to enforce public modesty, as the end of laws are virtue
September 7 at 2:40pm · Unlike · 4
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Joshua Kenz On a somewhat related note, I urge all of you never to watch Discovery or any of its affiliated channels (Military/American Heroes/Science). They now air commercials almost as bad as the smut commercials of Europe, advertising explicitly porn....ye only late at night, but you call a channel "American Heroes Channel" and then do that...well that is the culture we live in, breathe, and are infected with
September 7 at 2:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sean Robertson, how is modesty absolute and not based upon custom?
September 7 at 2:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley It probably is partially absolute and partially based upon custom.
September 7 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I accept your hug Edward Langley
September 7 at 2:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Although clothing (or lack of it) apart from action is not immodest in and of itself. Hence nobody is claiming Christ is immodest on the cross.
September 7 at 2:48pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I think it's probably better to relate the virtue of modesty to the act of dressing rather than to clothing itself.
September 7 at 2:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley Because one of the circumstances of the act of dressing is the occasion for which one dresses.
September 7 at 2:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley And also, virtue is a habit upon which action follows, not the habit in which a person is.
September 7 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, and theologians make the distinctions necessary for that...but I see none of that here. Even Jone draws attention to the distinction between less decent and indecent parts of the body, and how custom regulates the former's display, e.g.
Actually he makes a few more distinctions. The breast, privates, etc are one (pudor, never to be shown without grave cause save to a spouse)....and yes, breast feeding, without cover and in a public place is not modest....
The midriff, shoulders, thighs are another distinction
And the forearm, leg below the knee, etc another.
Custom wholly regulate how much is shown (whether by being bare or by letting its figure through) of the last. The second is mixed, modesty demands that such parts not be used to draw attention, and they are generally considered indecentior. By that, they may, according to custom, be more or less covered in certain circumstances, but it is inherently more fitting that they be covered, and not accentuated. The first is always immodest
Daniel Lendman mentions pants. Yes we all know the letter of pope Nicholas to the Bulgars about women wearing pants. Still, while custom may allow such, it is inherently a more feminine and fitting form for them not to, such that even now, in certain situations, it becomes immodest. Imagine going to a white collar event and a woman wears a morning coat and top hat....
September 7 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti All good Catholics should dress like this:
September 7 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Eeeeeew.
September 7 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Isn't that the poligimy-fundi group?
September 7 at 3:02pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "Woman, wear not tight fitting pants, or thou shalt incur the wrath of doughy men in ill fitting slacks and burgundy dress shirts."
September 7 at 3:03pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley "58. The educators of the young clergy would render a more valuable and useful service, if they would inculcate in youthful minds the precepts of Christian modesty, which is so important for the preservation of perfect chastity and which is truly called the prudence of chastity. For modesty foresees threatening danger, forbids us to expose ourselves to risks, demands the avoidance of those occasions which the imprudent do not shun. It does not like impure or loose talk, it shrinks from the slightest immodesty, it carefully avoids suspect familiarity with persons of the other sex, since it brings the soul to show due reverence to the body, as being a member of Christ[101] and the temple of the Holy Spirit.[102] He who possesses the treasure of Christian modesty abominates every sin of impurity and instantly flees whenever he is tempted by its seductions.
59. Modesty will moreover suggest and provide suitable words for parents and educators by which the youthful conscience will be formed in matters of chastity. "Wherefore," as We said in a recent address, "this modesty is not to be so understood as to be equivalent to a perpetual silence on this subject, nor as allowing no place for sober and cautious discussion about these matters in imparting moral instruction."[103] In modern times however there are some teachers and educators who too frequently think it their duty to initiate innocent boys and girls into the secrets of human generation in such a way as to offend their sense of shame. But in this matter just temperance and moderation must be used, as Christian modesty demands.
60. This modesty is nourished by the fear of God, that filial fear which is founded on the virtue of profound Christian humility, and which creates in us utter abhorrence for the slightest sin, as Our predecessor, St. Clement I, stated in these words, "he who is chaste in flesh should not be proud, for he should know that he owes the gift of continence to another."[104] How important Christian humility is for the protection of virginity, no one perhaps has taught more clearly than Augustine. "Because perpetual continence, and virginity above all, is a great good in the saints of God, extreme vigilance must be exercised lest it be corrupted by pride. . . The more clearly I see the greatness of this gift, the more truly do I fear lest it be plundered by thieving pride. No one therefore protects virginity, but God Himself Who bestowed it: and 'God is charity.'[105] The guardian therefore of virginity is charity; the habitat of this guardian is humility."[106]"
September 7 at 3:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRA.HTM
September 7 at 3:08pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "Woman, if thy neighbor's wife hath not a treadmill nor a gym membership, wear not skirts that showeth thine knees. For he may longeth for thy shapely figure."
September 7 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I'm being blocked by Joshua Kenz, my wife had to read to me what he wrote
September 7 at 3:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or the thread is asploding.
September 7 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I don't get blocking on social media: it just deprives you of the context of the arguments.
September 7 at 3:16pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, I am surprised at your lack of documentation. I see no reason to understand modesty differently than the way I suggested. I am pretty sure I am following Thomas on that.
September 7 at 3:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am also pretty sure that there are no binding demands on Catholics today for men and women to swim separately.
September 7 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Regardless, I wish we all would go back to tunics and robes. More beautiful, more comfortable, more modest.
September 7 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Double checked, yes, I'm being blocked. So much for rational discussion.
September 7 at 3:25pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Woman, looketh upon your neighbor for certain signs. If he be portly of stature and his skin be pale and spotty, be wary! If he weareth ill fitting corduroy, possesseth a leather bound copy of the Silmarillion, and speaks often of his bottles of small batch scotch, these signs shalt cause you to expect comments on the length of your womanly garments. For the frustrations of this man are multitude, and you must pity his lamentations.
September 7 at 3:27pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I like tunics, too, Daniel! I'm going to get this one: http://www.bodenusa.com/.../Womens-Must-Have-Tunic.html
Must Have Tunic
Buy the Must Have Tunic now for $98.00. A style you love in a print you’ll hold deer. Just add jeans or leggings for a...
BODENUSA.COM
September 7 at 3:29pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe but, I'm not supposed to be here right now. So, bye!
September 7 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill $98???!!!!
September 7 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe or maybe this one...http://www.bodenusa.com/.../Womens-Sweatshirt-Tunic.html
Sweatshirt Tunic
Buy the Sweatshirt Tunic now for $88.00. A chic new shape that looks relaxed when you feel anything but. Fall...
BODENUSA.COM
September 7 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe But 20% off, though!
September 7 at 3:39pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, seriously, I'm going now
September 7 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill This. http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=mp_s.../186-5906786-9033422...
Up2date Fashion Kaftan/Caftan with Safari Sunset Print, Style Caf-76
We are the importer and manufacturer of women's...
AMAZON.COM
September 7 at 3:43pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Young Catholic men demanding modesty is Dr. Freud's last foothold in contemporary culture. I have a three prong approach for you guys: 1) A devotion to St. Joseph; 2) saltpeter; 3) a hobby that doesn't involve Middle Earth.
September 7 at 3:44pm · Like · 5
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Liz Neill Only $11.99 for all that material! I love a good deal.
September 7 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It's concerning to see that some of these remarkable students of Aristotle and Thomas assert a false understanding of the Faith, including the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, or no Faith at all, or a rationalistic approach to the mysteries of sacred theology.
September 7 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Plus, the clothes that the women wear at TAC are not beautiful at all.
September 7 at 3:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No sense of beauty and false teachings about the Immaculata. Make the connection.
September 7 at 3:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I've known beautiful tac girls that dressed in beautiful clothing.
September 7 at 3:54pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg So have I, but I have also known tac men who espouse lies about the Immaculata.
September 7 at 3:57pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I cherish the time I spent at Richard ferrier's house singing praises to Mary from the hymnal.
September 7 at 3:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell I cherish the time I spent at Richard Ferrier's house watching the Met's production of Wagner's Ring Cycle.
September 7 at 3:59pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell #TalibanChic?
September 7 at 3:59pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I cherish the time I spent watching the Ring Cycle illegally in someone else's room.
September 7 at 4:01pm · Like · 7
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Scott Weinberg That's nice, I cherish the time I had at Ferrier's sipping wine coolers, but Richard Ferrier would not know a metaphor if it bit him on the leg, and that does not discount the error of alum espousing Buddhism, same sex attraction, evolution, and dogmatic heresy about the Immaculata.
September 7 at 4:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I married an Armenian.
September 7 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I married a Norwegian.
September 7 at 4:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The Taliban truly understood that law ought to be ordered towards virtue.
They were trying to make Afghanistan more virtuous via an entire Ministry/governmental department of Virtue until we so rudely stopped them.
September 7 at 4:03pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill America! _____ yeah!
September 7 at 4:04pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson This Scott fellow is sounding suspiciously Peregrine-ish...
September 7 at 4:04pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Correct, and ISIL makes Al Quada look like bleeding heart liberals.
September 7 at 4:05pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You guys are all prudes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikörperkultur
Freikörperkultur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freikörperkultur (FKK) is a German movement whose...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 7 at 4:06pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill The joy of being put back into right ratio
September 7 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'd love to read about cycles and trends re prudery and acceptance of the naked human form. Fascinating how things change in art, for starters.
Andrew Whaley's Vatican story re sculpture being a case in point. Same thing famously re many paintings.
September 7 at 4:09pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg So, I express concerns about how a TAC scholar of Aristotle and Thomas could assert that the Immaculata was immaculate only in soul but not body, and how another asserts that a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin, and you accuse me of being The Peregrine? I'm shocked.
September 7 at 4:10pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley If what you just said was true, I'd be the first to back you up. However, you have always insisted on blurring distinctions others have made to distort TAC grads into people who fit your prejudices.
September 7 at 4:12pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm used to such tactics from talk show hosts, political bloggers and comboxes, I didn't expect them from a graduate of Christendom college.
September 7 at 4:14pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill There have been a number of studies on the trend of skirt length, fall 2014 is back to mid-length and full length. (All though there are full length sheer options available, for those that prefer to show off fluorescent under-Roos )
September 7 at 4:14pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, did those studies come with graphs?
September 7 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I don't wish to offend anyone. I just find it alarming and, quite possibly, telling, how a TAC alum on this thread asserted that only Mary's soul, but not Her body, was immaculately conceived -- in order to support a cheap contention. That's crass heresy.
September 7 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley Implying that the wives of many people in this thread wear ugly clothes is not away to avoid offense, last time I checked.
September 7 at 4:21pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Some graphs but mostly photos. I'll find some.
September 7 at 4:26pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Scott - I too was blown away by the conversation re: Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth - as well as the conversation about Genesis and Biblical interpretation in the Catholic Tradition.
September 7 at 4:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Scott, it's only "crass heresy" if the person asserting it knew the content of the dogma. What was in question at the point was precisely what the content of the dogma was.
September 7 at 4:32pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And I still don't understand the difficulties people were posing in either conversation: no Catholic, to my knowledge, denied the letter of the dogma of the IC, they generally asked "what does the dogma entail?" Similarly, no Catholic said that Scripture could deceive, they just pointed out that the first couple chapters of Genesis are open to a wide range of interpretations with respect to the literal sense and that they broadly fit what Plato and Platonsts term "myth".
September 7 at 4:38pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And, remember, St. Thomas and St. Augustine say that the literal sense of the Scriptures is the sense found once one has interpreted any symbolic speech.
September 7 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I am blown away by flat landers that deny paleontology, and geoscience. At least our pope is willing to offer salvation to non-earth born people. (If ever found)
September 7 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am always around to blow people away.
September 7 at 4:53pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am pretty sure I am the one that shocked when I used the term myth to talk about Genesis.
I also raised certain questions about the way one might understand the IC.
September 7 at 4:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman lol.
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Scott Weinberg To re-cap, several of the best and brightest of TAC disputed the Catholic Truth that high metaphysical and moral truths cannot be known by reason alone without some admixture of error. In fact, several of them (I do not want to name names) maligned this Catholuc Truth as heresy. To support this truth -- that grace and revelation are required to guide natural theology with error -- the example of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was presented. Thomas Aquinas disagreed with this dogma because of his Aristotelean natural theology regarding the conception of man. In response, three of TACs finest argued that 1) Mary was not immaculate in her body; 2) a human person can have three parents, and 3) a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin. You can attack me all you want, but this is demonstrative of a flawed and crass intellectual formation.
September 7 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley You'd be more credible if you didn't insist that obvious mistakes and distortions weren't obvious mistakes or distortions.
September 7 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg You are a crass intellectual, and you are not worth debating.
September 7 at 5:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley And if you actually stooped to argue rather than merely assert.
September 7 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I could call you a fideist and stop debating you, but I care about truth.
September 7 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have been called a lot of things by a lot of people (usually things like, brilliant, kind, patient, wise-beyond-years, etc.), but I have never been called a crass intellectual.
September 7 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think we are primarily having a communication problem, Scott.
September 7 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think he's referring to my use of medical terminology above.
September 7 at 5:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought we were having a great/interesting discussion the other day when I unintentionally offended you and it all went to pot.
September 7 at 5:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, onward and upward, the road goes ever on...
September 7 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley This thread is full of firsts. I don't think I've ever been called a universalist before.
September 7 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman LOL!
September 7 at 5:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I missed that!
September 7 at 5:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Go back and look: In response to the position that conception of body and soul occurs at the beginning of life, Daniel Lendman defended post-conception ensoulment and produced an article from pop science which claimed that one person may have three parents, and asserted that a soul could be infused into a zygote after fertilization to create an identical twin because "strange things happen" or words to that effect; 2) in response to a presentation of Dogma, and in defense of ensoulment, Edward Langley presented vulgar biological descriptions of female anatomy and an article claiming that a human clone is the same thing as an identical twin, and 3) in a statement of bald face error, Michael beitia asserted that the Immaculate Conception is immaculate only in body but not soul.
This is crass, malformed intellectualism. God bless.
September 7 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman 1a. So, "guilty" I do think (still) that it is a reasonable position for someone to hold that biological conception as it is currently defined is not necessarily the same as what the Church means when it says that the Blessed Virgin was Immaculately conceived.
1b. The article about the three parents was brought to bear on a different though related point about how it seems that all that is needed for ensoulment is properly disposed matter. Pater Edmund later linked a fascinating paper by Dr. Michael Bolin who carried this position to a rather extreme point, in my opinion.
September 7 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman 2a. I find it amusing to think of Edward Langley presenting vulgar descriptions of female anatomy.
2b. I still think it is reasonable to say that identical twins are essentially the same as clones. Natural v. articificial.
September 7 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman 3. Michael did not intend to suggest that, and clarified his meaning later on.
September 7 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF The only person I remember spouting heresy was that Peregrine fellow. Remember when he contradicted a Vatican I citation twice? The 2nd time he stated that he held a proposition that Vatican I *specifically* anathematized!
September 7 at 5:24pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley I also remember him explicitly contradicting Vatican I as well, although he might have backpedaled slightly when the source was pointed out.
September 7 at 5:23pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^You are right, those were both Vatican I citations (though he may have also contradicted Trent).
September 7 at 5:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Basically, this debate boils down to this: several TAC alum maintain the false notion that reason alone -- without grace and revelation -- can attain all natural moral truths and truths of natural theology without any trace of error. This has been the position held by many in this thread, even to the point of taking sections of Vat I out of context. The Church teaches that revelation is necessary to guide and perfect natural theology. This debate also boils down to the fact that several Catholics on this thread do not know what "conception" means, and do not know the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. At least one "scholar" of Aristotle and Thomas from TAC seeks to misdefine the dogma to suit his false claim.
This is outrageous and pernicious. May God have mercy on you.
September 7 at 5:25pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Nope. Not what anyone said.
September 7 at 5:26pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Scott, you're an idiot. Pius IX SPECIFICALLY tells us what conception means. When God, by special creative act, put an immortal, rational, immaculate, soul into Mary's body. Read the encyclyical
September 7 at 5:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia do I need to quote it for you again, Perescott?
September 7 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Ensoulment" obviously happens, as all of the souls of men are specifically created by God. You deny that? Dumbass
September 7 at 5:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (I thought my ideas were radical, but I guess they weren't extreme enough). As to the subject of mixed gender swimming, what are the clothing standards by which men (gender) should follow, who sets the standards and how?
September 7 at 5:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley And thus passes the drive-by tongue-lashing.
September 7 at 5:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia My patience is limited. Expecially as regards intentional and deliberate misreading. I was particularly deferential in the "delayed ensoulment" convo - pointing out that I would have no problem with a different view. But, as usual, context is ignored for the sake of ax-grinding...
September 7 at 6:08pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne My blown-away-ness was really just that I couldn't tell if anyone had studied the Universal Catechism at all. It's a really important document - and all the topics discussed are treated extensively there, but no one seemed to be citing it. It took an alum of my own generation, Jody Haaf Garneau, to really go there. But then, she is actually working at educating in the Faith as an RCIA coordinator.
September 7 at 6:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia To be fair Marie Pitt-Payne, we have been citing magesterial documents, that are the basis for the CCC
September 7 at 6:22pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../640px-Hemline_%28skirt... per request, here is a Wikipedia page on hemline trend http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemline
UPLOAD.WIKIMEDIA.ORG
September 7 at 6:25pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne I understand that, Michael. But Pope Benedict so much wanted the faithful to study the CCC that he attached indulgences to the practice during the Year of Faith. Most of those questions that were being asked on Scriptural interpretation are presented in detail in the CCC.
September 7 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Mr. Beitia, I would urge you to talk to a priest about what the Immaculate Conception means. It does not mean, as is your contention, that an immaculate soul was "ensouled" into Mary's non-immaculate body. This position is heresy. The Immaculate Conception, as an infallible Dogma of the Church, means that by a singular act of grace, Mary the Mother of God was preserved from Original Sin in her entirety, body and soul, from the first moment of her conception. Please consult with a holy priest, instead of relying on your interpretation of what you read on the internet. And please refrain from gutteral remarks or vulgar biological references. We are speaking about the Mother of God, after all. Thank you.
September 7 at 7:30pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Immaculate Conception, as an infallible Dogma of the Church, means that by a singular act of grace Mary, the Mother of God, was preserved from Original Sin in her entirety, body and soul, together, at the first moment of her conception. It does not mean, as some have crassly asserted, that Mary's body was NOT free from Original Sin, before an "ensoulment" of an Immaculate soul. This is heresy. This is not the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception, Mary Mother of Jesus, was conceived entirely without Original Sin in one moment. Her divine Son, Jesus the Christ, took his human nature from Her immaculate nature which is and remains immaculate in the fullest sense, body and soul together, from Her Immaculate Conception.
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
September 7 at 7:40pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott, what is meant by non-immaculate body? What does it mean in relation to any unborn child? Where in the papal documents quoted above is it mentioned? I dont know what it means.
September 7 at 7:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary is Immaculate body and soul from the first moment of her conception. Unfortunately, others on this thread, particularly Michael Beitia, (not me) assert that only Mary's soul is Immaculate, not her body. He claims that her body was not freed from Original Sin until "ensouled" by Her immaculate soul. This claim is childish, heretical and false. I have never made this false claim. Other have.
September 7 at 7:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here is the Dogma from Ineffabilis Deus: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."
September 7 at 7:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And Ineffabilis Deus describes the Immaculata as: "singularly holy and most pure in soul and body..."
September 7 at 7:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And, Mary is "entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind."
September 7 at 7:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Thank you, Scott. [BTW I dont think Michael denied this but I can see why you might think so.]
September 7 at 7:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ineffabilis Deus cites previous decress about "the infusion [of the soul] into the body." The Dogma, however, prescinds from this view of ensoulment. Ineffabilis Deus asserts that Mary was preserved from all Original Sin, and by singular and special grace was made "entirely free from every stain of sin, and from all corruption of body, soul and mind."
September 7 at 7:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, Michael Beitia did say above that the Immaculate Conception means that only Mary's soul was immaculate and infused [ensouled] into a body. This is NOT the dogma. The reference to infusion in the encyclical Ineffabilis Deus is merely a citation of a prior decree which was not the Dogma. Beitia did say that, and above he maintains that heretical position. So, the reason I think he said this, is because he said it. Also, others on this thread have said that a human clone and an identical twin are the same thing (Ed Langley). Other TAC alum have asserted that all metaphysical truths and truths of natural theology can be known without error by reason alone, even to the point of taking Vat I out of context. This contradicts Catholic Truth which holds that grace and revelation are required to ensure that reason may proceed completely without error in areas pertaining to high moral truths and mataphysics. Others have denied that Thomas rejected the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Still, others have said it is possible for a child to have three parents. Others from TAC have promoted Buddhist practices, and false theories of evolution, and have supported a moral basis for same sex attraction. When questioned on these things, they deny ever making thse claims, even though they are in writing.
September 7 at 8:12pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland "And They Were Both Naked...and Were Not Ashamed:" The Nude as the Highest Material Object of the Visual Arts. -- by Mariana Langley. One of the 2014 thesis titles in the slideshow above, just to bring it all full circle again.
September 7 at 8:25pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Nudity as the highest material object of visual art? That's really absurd. Nudity is precisely why art conceals nudity. The next thing you know, students will be sunbathing nude as an artform.
September 7 at 8:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Funny thing to say, seeing as one of the oldest art objects in the world is the Venus of Willendorf.
September 7 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm sorry, Scott, I forgot that your interpretation of dogmas is right because you assert it.
September 7 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Notice too, the difference between "nudity" and "the nude" .... not the same thing.
September 7 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell But the nude study is really quite central to the history of art. You can't really deny that (though I know you might well try to).
September 7 at 8:36pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I'd also like to note that JPII personally had the clothing painted onto figures in the Vatican's murals removed.
September 7 at 8:38pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg So, is this how it works? See a picture of the statue of David, pull a verse from the Bible and write thesis? Objects of practice are not the highest. Clearly depictions of the nude are not the highest form of visual art. Clearly, depictions of creation, revelation, Christ, Mary and salvific images are the highest form of visual art.
September 7 at 8:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell OMG. Whatever.
September 7 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Actually, Mariana Langley's father is an excellent artist (possibly even the greatest living artist, although I might be biased) and Mariana had a first class training in the visual arts long before she went to TAC.
September 7 at 8:40pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Scott, I have read the whole document. It does not prescind from prior teaching but affirms it clearly. And Beita well cited it. That part clearly refers to the first moment of conception, the infusion of the soul. I dont think it is debatable. The references to corruption and purity do not seem to refer to refer so much to the conception as later or rather her whole life.
September 7 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://jameslangley.com/viadolorosa/
Via Dolorosa
CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ⎜ ARTIST
JAMESLANGLEY.COM
September 7 at 8:41pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Scott Weinberg And no, Mr. Langley, I am merely restating the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the teaching if Ineffabilis Deus. Mary, Mother of God, was Immaculately Conceived all in one moment, body, soul and mind, at her conception. This is the teaching of the Church, not my reiteration of it. I am merely asserting it again and again because you do not seem to get it or assent to it.
September 7 at 8:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe TAC totally corrupts the youth. I wouldn't be surprised if students snuck out after curfew to swim nude in the ponds.
September 7 at 8:42pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley Sure, what does conception mean? that's the crucial question you've been ignoring for hundreds and hundreds of comments.
September 7 at 8:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe now...to tag or not to tag....
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ha ha ha! Yes! Freikorperkultur FTW!
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Monica Murphy, Rebecca Gisla, Laura De
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg John, that is false: Mary was Immaculately Conceived body and soul, all at once, at the very first moment of her being, namely, at her conception. This is what the Church teaches. I am sorry you see it differently.
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Conception is the first moment of being.
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Apropos of not too much, Mariana also painted gorgeous botanical studies for work study.
September 7 at 8:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's too late for them to retract our diplomas, right?
September 7 at 8:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Ok, what do you mean by "first moment of being"?
September 7 at 8:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Conception for the Immaculate Conception was the first moment of her immaculate being, entirely, body and soul.
September 7 at 8:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg First moment of being means the first moment of existence for matter and form. Both immaculate for Mary, in one divine act. This is the Dogma. Not mine, but the Church's.
September 7 at 8:45pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley So, you're saying that pre-existing matter had absolutely nothing to do with the conception of Mary?
September 7 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes.
September 7 at 8:45pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So much fun, those ponds. As frosh, we left our welcome party (hosted by Vinnie and Steck) thoroughly inebriated and then went to swim in the ponds.
September 7 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger NO ONE has dissented from the dogma, only from your interpretation.
September 7 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell But I'm dating myself ...
September 7 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ah, the ponds. Very cold.
September 7 at 8:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Matter from St. Anne and Joachim, at moment of Mary's conception, became Mary's matter, with form, both immaculate.
September 7 at 8:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Was St. Joachim really Mary's father?
September 7 at 8:46pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yes. We almost froze. The alcohol kept us warm though.
September 7 at 8:46pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That's convenient, John.
September 7 at 8:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, St. Joachim was Mary's father.
September 7 at 8:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel O'Connell, you mean helped freeze you faster?
September 7 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg John, I am simply stating Catholic dogma, not my opinion of it. You can disagree with it if you wish, but at least know what it says.
September 7 at 8:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, but in normal generation being a parent means providing matter (in some sense) to receive the human soul.
September 7 at 8:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The terror of expulsion is also good for warming.
September 7 at 8:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not really Ed, we do not really know that.
September 7 at 8:48pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nope. We survived. All these annoying upperclassmen came by and tried to compel us to get out of the ponds, but we didn't listen. "Ah, the immodesty of a co-ed swimming party!"
September 7 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I never lived. (Actually I got to bathe up by the punchbowls one time, so I lived a little.)
September 7 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ok, Scott, go ahead and deny 2000+ years of biology.
September 7 at 8:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, co-ed swimming parties are clearly mandated by tradition at the end of Senior year. No one objected in 06.
September 7 at 8:49pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Just don't claim to be reasonable.
September 7 at 8:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Everybody just has to wear their academic gowns. It's the modest way.
September 7 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I am not denying anything that science has proven, but science has not proven what you think it has proven. Being a parent means providing matter which becomes new matter at conception, at the same time with a soul, called into being at the same moment as the soul is. This is conception.
September 7 at 8:50pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yes, I was just thinking of mentioning the burqini, but academic gowns would do just as well.
September 7 at 8:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott, when you quote the dogma, no problem. When you add words, problem.
September 7 at 8:50pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg The biological theory of generation you are using is a theory, Ed.
September 7 at 8:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, that is true in some sense. But it's also true, and basically philosophy 101, that matter is the only thing that persists through change.
September 7 at 8:51pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe like a unisex burqini
September 7 at 8:51pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://www.eastessence.com/islamic-clothing/modest-swimwear/ !!!
BURQINI & SWIMWEAR
EastEssence.com offers a wide array of affordable Full-cover swim suits. We offer two types of fabrics. The...
EASTESSENCE.COM
September 7 at 8:51pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I am quoting what the Church teaches: Mary is the Immaculate Conception. She was conceived body and soul and mind in one moment. At her conception.
September 7 at 8:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John. Not understanding dogma. Problem. Not studying dogma at Catholic college. Problem.
September 7 at 8:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe dislike! I dislike the burqini!
September 7 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Well, your mind is certainly not all there in actuality at conception.
September 7 at 8:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Our point has been that if "conception" means the first moment in which the human person, Mary, existed, then nothing we've said so far contradicts the dogma you keep quoting.
September 7 at 8:53pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Dogma does not say Mary's immaculate soul was infused into pre-existing fallen human matter. To assert this is a problem.
September 7 at 8:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Neither is your body, Catherine.
September 7 at 8:53pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nothing seduces like modesty.
September 7 at 8:53pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Because none of us have ever claimed that Mary, a human person, ever existed with a non-immaculate body or soul.
September 7 at 8:54pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Beitia and others assert that Mary's immaculate soul was infused into pre-existing matter that was not immaculate.
September 7 at 8:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Beiatia did. See above. Please do not deny your previous claim.
September 7 at 8:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Depends what you mean by "pre-existing", Scott.
September 7 at 8:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Look man, there had to be some pre-existing matter out of which Mary came to be.
September 7 at 8:54pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe But that matter wasn't Mary's body in any relevant sense until her soul was there, too
September 7 at 8:55pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Nope, it means that you claimed only her soul was immaculate. It is clear you do not know what the Dogma means. What do you think it means?
September 7 at 8:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Her soul did not make her body immaculate. Got it?
September 7 at 8:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley If you mean that matter had been prepared to receive Mary's soul, then we say that there must have been some preexisting matter that was marked out by natural causes to be the matter for a new person. If you mean the matter that is the matter of a human person, none of us has said that that matter could exist before the creation of Mary's soul.
September 7 at 8:56pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg What do you mean Ed? What does the Dogma mean to you?
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Edward Langley Techinically, "human body" names the ensouled body considered as distinct from the human soul informing it.
September 7 at 8:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley Without out really being distinct.
September 7 at 8:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Beitia said that Mary's immaculate soul informed what was the non-immaculate matter that became her body. This is not the Dogma. But, pray tell, what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means?
September 7 at 8:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley If that's the body you keep talking about, we all (or most) agree that that came to be at the moment her soul was created.
September 7 at 8:58pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Can you even consider them as distinct?
September 7 at 8:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Edward Langley, please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means.
September 7 at 8:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ed, heroic efforts and everything, but I don't think this is going anywhere.
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Catherine Ryland What is the problem with saying that was when the sperm met the egg?
September 7 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger WHAT IS IMMACULATE matter? I missed that dogma
September 7 at 8:58pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Edward, please tell us what you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means.
September 7 at 8:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (I didn't read all the comments above, but I can go do so now...)
September 7 at 8:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley None of us has any real objection to that, Catherine, our main contention is that the dogma doesn't commit us to any particular view of the relation between the fertilization of the egg and the coming-to-be of the person.
September 7 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley i.e. the question of "when is the soul created" is not bound to a specific view of what happens in fertilization.
September 7 at 9:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, should I catch up? Did anything interesting happen today besides the modesty stuff?
September 7 at 9:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, it means that when a person, Mary, came to be, she was free from all stain of sin in both body and soul.
September 7 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Not that I can recall, although a distinction was made between modesty as conceived as a virtue of clothing vs. modesty conceived as a virtue governing the act of dressing.
September 7 at 9:02pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley But I suppose that that's just "modesty stuff"
September 7 at 9:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg We are still waiting for Edward Langley to state what he thinks the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means. (It means that all of Mary came into existence at once, body and soul, matter and form, and this was her conception and she was, at this first moment of her existence in both body and soul, by a special act of grace, preserved from sin, body and soul... not just soul.)
September 7 at 9:03pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz posted some thoughts on ensoulment, too
September 7 at 9:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley I just did four or five comments ago.
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, just saw that...it's long....I guess I'll read it
September 7 at 9:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And ensoulment is a theory.
September 7 at 9:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And Thomas opposed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception because of his theory of ensoulment. This proves that some metaphysical truths may not be held without error by reason alone.
September 7 at 9:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley False. He may have given arguments from his theory of ensoulment, but as we've repeated over and over, it doesn't seem that his theory of generation entails a position on the Immaculate Conception.
September 7 at 9:05pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg, Ed said what his view was like three comments up.
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Edward Langley And, Scott, was Mary saved by Christ's Passion and Death?
September 7 at 9:06pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Also, error implies an already-defined dogma. Duh.
September 7 at 9:06pm · Like
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Nina Rachele 16000!
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Scott Weinberg Not false at all Ed. And what do you think the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception means. We are waiting.
September 7 at 9:06pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Dang it! I wanted to be 16000!!
September 7 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Why don't you stop and read the various comments I've just posted.
September 7 at 9:07pm · Like
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Nina Rachele my timing is awesome but I can't count...
September 7 at 9:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley If you won't read what I write, I'll just have to start antagonizing Samantha about how Aristotle really did think that God was at least one person.
September 7 at 9:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele since I first posted "14000" before I realized my error. darn you, pumpkin ale...
September 7 at 9:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or maybe we could talk about Aristotle's theory of the will.
September 7 at 9:08pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You can edit it, Nina.
So I would just like to open up the thread here to some NFL talk. Did anyone see the Cowboys debacle?
September 7 at 9:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, what do you think the Immaculate Conception means? Thomas denied the Immaculate Conception because he thought that Mary's soul was immaculate enough and would have made the rest of her fully holy. This is beitia's position, and your's it seems. This is not what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that Mary was immaculate in body and soul at the same moment by the same one act, and this was the first moment of her being in both body and soul.
September 7 at 9:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley NFL is officially off-topic.
September 7 at 9:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm only repeating myself once: "Scott, it means that when a person, Mary, came to be, she was free from all stain of sin in both body and soul."
September 7 at 9:10pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Edward Langley does not know is Doctrine, tsk tak, and I have go go say the Rosary. Good night.
September 7 at 9:10pm · Like
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Nina Rachele since there were ladies talking about fancy boots on here yesterday, I am not sure anything is legitimately off topic...
September 7 at 9:10pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Is there anything legitimately off-topic? The ponds were okay, right?
September 7 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Word, Nina.
September 7 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Ed, that is right. Good man. Good night.
September 7 at 9:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley We permitted the discussion of boots on this principle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU
Harry Enfield - Women know your limits
Hilarious clip from Harry Enfield and Chums
YOUTUBE.COM
September 7 at 9:11pm · Like · Remove Preview
Daniel P. O'Connell What are you guys, like the prefects now? The enforcers? I don't like this turn of events at all ...
September 7 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have read Mr. Kenz's essay about Thomas on ensoulment and am more confused now. Might be the whiskey sour
September 7 at 9:13pm · Like · 4
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Nina Rachele Does anyone have a good brandy recommendation? Under $30?
September 7 at 9:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I also have read what he wrote about the virgin birth and I have so many more things to say about that!
September 7 at 9:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe J/k, didn't actually read it
September 7 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Courvoisier is just about $30 and is drinkable, at the very least.
September 7 at 9:15pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Not really a brandy person myself ... I'll have to pass ...
September 7 at 9:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Christian Brothers isn't bad for mixing, but I'm not sure if it's exactly good.
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Get yourself some whiskey, girl
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe brandy is for egg nog only
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg But Ed, "personhood" does not prove the theory of ensoulment into pre-existing matter. The Dogma does not imply this at all.
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley Cheap brandys, however, tend to be much worse than cheap rums or whiskeys.
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg true dat
September 7 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You can get solid whiskey for $30, depending on the state you live in
September 7 at 9:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Except Scoresby, Scoresby just shouldn't be drunk).
September 7 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It tastes like cheap scotch with liquid smoke added for "peatiness"
September 7 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I am starting on brandy and then we will see if I can get over to whiskey at some point. not a huge liquor person, brandy is the only thing I've liked so far...
September 7 at 9:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott is an idiot.
September 7 at 9:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Get a nice bourbon or something. Those are sweet.
September 7 at 9:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley I find bourbon harder to like than Jameson or Johnny Walker.
September 7 at 9:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^ get out
September 7 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I like bourbon.
September 7 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia He keeps asserting I said something I didn't, because he has an ax to grind
1) Ensoulment happens: God creates all human souls and infuses them into matter
2) BVM was free from sin from the first moment of her conception: that is when God placed her soul into matter
3) when that was is subject to speculation.
September 7 at 9:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley It just took me longer to like it.
September 7 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia He refuses to engage me, but smears me when I'm busy watching Dallas get blown out
September 7 at 9:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Michael, it might be dangerous to say "creates all human souls and infuses them into matter". I've heard people fuss about how this isn't what happens, but rather God creates the soul in the matter.
September 7 at 9:20pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Bulleit Bourbon.
September 7 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Fine. The creation of the soul is special act of God independent of biology
September 7 at 9:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Ed, nobody "permitted" me to do anything! I talk about what I want on this thread!
September 7 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia ^that's what you think
September 7 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley We'll let you think that .
September 7 at 9:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia all is permitted by special act of TNET
September 7 at 9:21pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele whoa, scary synchronicity
September 7 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If nobody stopped me when I brought up skinny dipping, I think I'm pretty much off the leash
September 7 at 9:22pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia the jokes write themselves Nina
September 7 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Notice how we just sorta moved right along, though?
September 7 at 9:22pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Discuss: Google Earth has ruined the future of nude sunbathing.
September 7 at 9:23pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I said "hymen" like, 100 times.
September 7 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley That scared Scott away for a time.
September 7 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele ^I must have missed a lot over the last few days...
September 7 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia The funny thing is, last night my wife and I went for our evening constitutional and, while discussing, we came up with some very good reasons for ensoulment to be contemporaneous with fertilization.
But if I'm just supposed to be wrong.... whatever
September 7 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I also said "sexist" and "misogyny"
September 7 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia ^2 of my favorite topics
September 7 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you need to bust out with "Patriarchy" I don't think they'd take it well from me
September 7 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's up next, I've been saving it.
September 7 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia good work. Back to football (and nachos)
September 7 at 9:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and beer
September 7 at 9:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What, you think they'd take it well from me? Really?
September 7 at 9:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Gendernorming? More like TNETnorming.
September 7 at 9:27pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell I just saw online that the Broncos are giving the Colts a good working over.
September 7 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET is beyond offensive. It contains offensive and non-offensive within it.
September 7 at 9:28pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Woohooo!
September 7 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Aufhebung! (Hegel, natch)
September 7 at 9:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So, I've got this article I'm supposed to be editing ... *procrastinates*
September 7 at 9:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm waiting for Caleb to be done carefully curating his "10 books that moved you" before he posts it to facebook. He does not know what "off the top of your head" means.
September 7 at 9:33pm · Unlike · 7
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Edward Langley Procrastination is the best.
September 7 at 9:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I told him he couldn't put "Summa Theologiae" on the list but he disagrees
September 7 at 9:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Why not?
September 7 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's like saying Corpus of Aristotle.
September 7 at 9:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Aristotle's Corpus, I mean
September 7 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe too much. it's cheating
September 7 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But it's actually a book, and was intended to be a unit.
September 7 at 9:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe but it's soooooOOOOOoooOOOOOoo long
September 7 at 9:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Could he have put Churchill's "History of the English-speaking People?"
September 7 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://www.amazon.com/History.../dp/0880294272/ref=sr_1_2...
A History of the English-Speaking Peoples (The Birth of Britain / The New World /...
AMAZON.COM
September 7 at 9:39pm · Like · Remove Preview
Samantha Cohoe I'm guessing you put it on your "10 books that moved me"
September 7 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg One last thing, Ed. There is no mention of "person" in the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and Thomas rejected the Dogma for several flawed reasons. Study your Dogma.
September 7 at 9:41pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I see Samantha's point though. If I were to focus in on what part of the Summa really stuck with me I would say something like ST, I. QQ 1-13. I admit it sounds awkward, but still ...
September 7 at 9:41pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I'm sure you don't want to say that Churchill's history has anything like the immense breadth of topics that the Summa has
September 7 at 9:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley The best thing I ever did after leaving TAC was reading through the first 10 or so questions in the Prima-Secundae (the parts on man's last end and the parts on the stages of a voluntary act).
September 7 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The one giant lacuna in TAC's philosophy course is a discussion of the appetites from the perspective of natural philoosphy. While the ST isn't exactly natural phil., that section helped me clarify how the appetites work.
September 7 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I kinda wish we read it instead of the Treatise on Law.
September 7 at 9:44pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I'm still waiting, Scott, for your discussion of how all men were saved by Christ's Passion and how that works in the case of the Immaculate Conception.
September 7 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Well, I can't put off editing this paper any longer: I promised the author I would give him my comments by the morning. I'll stop back later if I finish early enough ... TTFN.
September 7 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That's funny Ed. That was the same reason why Thomas rejected the Immaculate Conception. Terms like ensoulment, fertilization and personhood, and crass physiology from hip chicks, have nothing to do with the Dogma. You seem like medieval neanderthalists. You should allow your bodies to be ensouled by Dogma. Lol.
September 7 at 9:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley You realize that it's heretical to deny that all men were saved by Christ's Passion and Death, right?
September 7 at 9:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "hip chicks?"
September 7 at 9:52pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (BTW, don't read that in a universalist sense, I was slightly sloppy in my formulation.)
September 7 at 9:52pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe crass physiology?
September 7 at 9:52pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley What I meant was "it's heretical to deny that everyone who is saved is saved by Christ's Passion and Death."
September 7 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What is he talking about?
September 7 at 9:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Christ died for all men, so in that sense you're right
September 7 at 9:53pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley He means talking about female anatomy in relation to the dogma of the virgin birth.
September 7 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Who're the "hip chicks?"
September 7 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I think he might have meant you.
September 7 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And maybe Marie.
September 7 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe huh.
September 7 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well I wasn't claiming the "light through glass" stuff had anything to do with IC dogma.
September 7 at 9:58pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Yeah, I think he might be confusing our discussion of the Virgin Birth with that of the IC.
September 7 at 9:59pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Best Hodor voice. Hymen, Hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen...
September 7 at 10:00pm · Like · 6
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Scott Weinberg I mean, the Immaculate Conception was a grace wrought through Christ's sacrifice and, Catholics, please do not speak of physiology in relation to the mysteries of the Most Holy Mother of God. This is obscene.
September 7 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, did you come from the Victorian Era in a time machine?
September 7 at 10:01pm · Like · 7
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Edward Langley Aquinas does speak of physiology in reference to such things and the Church's Tradition is full of disputes about exactly what physiological happenings are implied by the dogmas about the Blessed Virgin and the incarnation.
September 7 at 10:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley This doctrine from Trent raises the single greatest difficulty for defending the Immaculate Conception: "The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation.
For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity."
September 7 at 10:02pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil I am resolved not to get sucked into the vortex, but re: the whiskey discussion upthread: http://www.thedailybeast.com/.../your-craft-whiskey-is...
Your ‘Craft’ Whiskey Is Probably From a Factory Distillery in Indiana
The artisan whiskey industry has a big secret—many of...
THEDAILYBEAST.COM
September 7 at 10:03pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil No idea how reliable the article is.
September 7 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If Mary never was subject to sin, she would not have needed salvation and thus Christ would not have justified her but Trent teaches us that every man must be justified by Christ's Passion and Death.
September 7 at 10:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scotus's solution is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's coherent: he says that we must divide the instant so that at one and the same moment (that of her conception) she was subject to sin and neading salvation and saved from all taint of sin.
September 7 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "infused with dogma": this may explain his understanding of Faith enlightening reason which I understand primarily as the dogmas we assent to safeguarding us from errors. Scott seems to regard it as an infusion of grace that protects one from error.
September 7 at 10:05pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine-- you're just a big spoil sport
September 7 at 10:06pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Ed Langley, you seem to be a clone of Neanderthal and medieval man. Did they use pre-existing matter in your creation?
September 7 at 10:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm actually deeply troubled by this.
September 7 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Read Dogma; put away the brandy.
September 7 at 10:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The whiskey thing, I mean
September 7 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm pretty sure it's true, Samantha.
September 7 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, fyi, I am not a "hip chick"
September 7 at 10:07pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I've got three kids and a mini-van.
September 7 at 10:07pm · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley Three is just about the limit for "normal people", Samantha.
September 7 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It has never been Catholic tradition to discuss Mary in the crude and presumptuous way that you do. That is tragic.
September 7 at 10:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, if all those Fathers Marie was talking about actually said all that stuff about the Virgin Birth, then it was in fact Catholic tradition
September 7 at 10:10pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Here's some Aquinas:' On the contrary, Augustine says (Serm. de Nativ. [Supposititious), addressing himself to the Virgin-Mother: "In conceiving thou wast all pure, in giving birth thou wast without pain."
I answer that, The pains of childbirth are caused by the infant opening the passage from the womb. Now it has been said above (28, 2, Replies to objections), that Christ came forth from the closed womb of His Mother, and, consequently, without opening the passage. Consequently there was no pain in that birth, as neither was there any corruption; on the contrary, there was much joy therein for that God-Man "was born into the world," according to Isaiah 35:1-2: "Like the lily, it shall bud forth and blossom, and shall rejoice with joy and praise."
Reply to Objection 1. The pains of childbirth in the woman follow from the mingling of the sexes. Wherefore (Genesis 3:16) after the words, "in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children," the following are added: "and thou shalt be under thy husband's power." But, as Augustine says (Serm. de Assumpt. B. Virg., [Supposititious), from this sentence we must exclude the Virgin-Mother of God; who, "because she conceived Christ without the defilement of sin, and without the stain of sexual mingling, therefore did she bring Him forth without pain, without violation of her virginal integrity, without detriment to the purity of her maidenhood." Christ, indeed, suffered death, but through His own spontaneous desire, in order to atone for us, not as a necessary result of that sentence, for He was not a debtor unto death.
Reply to Objection 2. As "by His death" Christ "destroyed our death" [Preface of the Mass in Paschal-time, so by His pains He freed us from our pains; and so He wished to die a painful death. But the mother's pains in childbirth did not concern Christ, who came to atone for our sins. And therefore there was no need for His Mother to suffer in giving birth.
Reply to Objection 3. We are told (Luke 2:7) that the Blessed Virgin herself "wrapped up in swaddling clothes" the Child whom she had brought forth, "and laid Him in a manger." Consequently the narrative of this book, which is apocryphal, is untrue. Wherefore Jerome says (Adv. Helvid. iv): "No midwife was there, no officious women interfered. She was both mother and midwife. 'With swaddling clothes,' says he, 'she wrapped up the child, and laid Him in a manger.'" These words prove the falseness of the apocryphal ravings.'
September 7 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But, anyways, it's just silly to think that statements about bodily processes are too dirty to attribute to the Blessed Mother or Christ who "became like us in all things but sin."
September 7 at 10:14pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Edward Langley The first question you should ask yourself before charging someone with obscenity is "what was the occasion for this saying?"
September 7 at 10:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin People, why do you keep responding to this man?
He has repeatedly and in the clearest terms shown that he is either incapable of or not interested in participating in rational discussion.
He has interrupted actual conversation with baseless slurs and accusations of heresy, thus revealing his genuine interest, trolling.
He has needlessly denigrated the Church's Common Doctor in fruitless attempts to support his risible fideistic theology, and rejected the notion of faith seeking understanding in pursuit of the same end.
He has made absurd displays of purported piety in order to cast aspersions on legitimate and honest theological inquiry.
He has repeatedly and baselessly insulted the men and women in this conversation as concerns their education, faith, and moral character.
I realize that there is some occasional measure of entertainment to be found in his tirades, but to encourage this behavior seems more likely to be a spiritual hindrance than a help to him. The man needs not argument but prayer.
September 7 at 10:36pm · Unlike · 15
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Scott Weinberg Wow, Michael, you sound like a very proud fellow. I just find it tragic when Catholics scream like furies at the smallest of perceived slights, yet you use the most vulgar terminology when speaking of the Theotokos.
September 8 at 12:05am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Scott, why do you feel it necessary to attack people?
September 7 at 10:43pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng TNET ≠ DNFTT
September 7 at 10:47pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Michael's is a well measured response. Scott when it comes to certain dogmas you make unfounded attacks of heresy. Your other posts are at times amusing and even insightful. But if you continue attacking, I will soon block you. I dont doubt your Faith but your zeal is misplaced.
September 7 at 10:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin There have been any number of fascinating topics on this thread that could serve to keep it never-ending without feeding the troll. Even apart from concern for his good, it's a pity to see these derailed.
September 7 at 10:53pm · Unlike · 6
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Scott Weinberg I attack no one. Thomas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception. Others on this thread have stated opinion about the Dogma which is clearly false. Some of the language you have used to discuss the Virgin Mary is vulger and inappropriate. You seem to embrace your own frail understanding of medieval theologians over the guidance and Dogmas of Holy Mother the Church. This is hardly Catholic. So why do you attack me, why do you not just censor me, and prove you are hardly American as well?
I am too busy to discuss the sacred with crude people like some of you.
May God have mercy on you.
September 7 at 11:54pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill "I attack no one" and "you are hardly American" in the same paragraph.
Really?
September 7 at 11:27pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Please explain anything that was written, "vulgar"
September 7 at 11:32pm · Edited · Like
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Liz Neill Hymen???
September 7 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The vulgar physiological descriptions used in your discussion of the mysteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary are inappropriate. I have been attacked by several TAC alum for pointing out that Thomas erred in his understanding of the Immaculate Conception. This is not a denigration of Thomas, but fact. Others on this thread have claimed or implied that the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is necessitated by "ensoulment." This is false. Ensoulment is a theory. The Dogma is de fide. For all this, I have been personally attacked and threatened with censorship. The threat is whimpy, and un-American.
September 8 at 12:01am · Edited · Like
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Monica Murphy Not seeing how "hymen" and "passage to/from the womb" is any less vulgar than "circumcise the foreskin of your hearts". Actually, in the literal sense of the word "vulgar", "hymen" isn't vulgar at all--it's medical terminology. Nobody's talking about popping cherries, which would be crass and vulgar. In any case, I don't know how a discussion of virginity before, DURING, and after birth can occur without some discussion of physiological logistics. Always been curious about Catholic teaching on this. Thoughts, Samantha?
September 8 at 12:01am · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg This is enitirely inappropriate, sad and pathetic. God have mercy on you. It is clear that you have had very little introduction to Catholic theological and dogmatic traditions, especially those which involve the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth, and how to discuss. Social media is no excuse. You talk trash like a bunch of miscreants.
September 8 at 12:04am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, go back under your bridge.
September 8 at 12:03am · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Ed, go to hell.
September 8 at 12:03am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Hymen. Hymen. Hymen, hymen, hymen, hymen. HYYYYMMMMMEEEEENNNN!!!!!!
September 8 at 12:08am · Like · 3
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Liz Neill Hodor?
September 8 at 12:09am · Like
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Jeff Neill Theological topic: when Christ was presented in the temple, was his foreskin incorruptible?
Is it hidden in some momentary tabernacle?
September 8 at 12:10am · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Dude, if Scott Weinberg drops dead from shock, I blame Jeff.
September 8 at 12:10am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I think Scott thinks that, in general, it is inappropriate to try to understand mysteries both singly and in relation to each other. Thus, bringing in physiological details to discuss the implications of the Virgin Birth is "obscene."
September 8 at 12:10am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, did you go to or graduate from Thomas Aquinas College?
September 8 at 12:10am · Like
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Jeff Neill HahahahHa.
September 8 at 12:11am · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, I think that question is probably inappropriate.
September 8 at 12:11am · Like
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Edward Langley Mostly because I don't see any consideration of it in theological authorities.
September 8 at 12:12am · Like
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Jeff Neill But interesting..... For a better crowd to discuss
September 8 at 12:12am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Your nuts, Ed. We could go 2 maybe three thousand comments on that question--with a few breaks to talk about skirts and Latin.
September 8 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ok so it isn't theological per se
September 8 at 12:12am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Ed, bringing such terminology into discussion on the Topic of the Theotokos is by definition obscene and inappropriate and not funny in any way. Shame on you!
September 8 at 12:14am · Like
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Edward Langley My main objection (upon reflection) to Jeff's question had to do with making jokes about holy things: the question of the consequences of the Virgin Birth has a long history in theological authorities.
September 8 at 12:16am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti One day, someone is going to tell me that Scott Weinberg is a hilarious prankster, and that all of his pedantic, boorish bullying is just a giant charade. He's really just a great guy who pretends to be horrible as a way to entertain his old buddies on Facebook. I kind of think that might be the case. Can anyone confirm or deny? Until then, I can't figure any of this out.
September 8 at 12:18am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of vulgar, in the Hebrew text where it is talking about slaying all the men of Jericho the text literally says, "Slay all those who urinate against the wall."
September 8 at 12:32am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Oh those Semites!
September 8 at 12:32am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Penance is being tagged in a comment on TNET
September 8 at 12:32am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau And Scott you haven't been to the campus lately. The women wear beautiful clothes. I didn't even see one jumper nor a denim skirt. I was most impressed by the upgrade in the women's fashions since the '90's
September 8 at 12:33am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman "Go to Hell," is pretty much the worst thing that one could desire for another man.
September 8 at 12:33am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau No Aaron -- he is for real.
September 8 at 12:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. Col. 3:16
September 8 at 12:35am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Kathleen Wilson
September 8 at 12:43am · Like
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Kathleen Wilson Well, heck. Last time I checked out this thread everyone was playing so nicely together.
September 8 at 12:51am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Scott, as I said before, I did go there and my senior thesis was on Aristotle's 10th category and Genesis, in particular on rationality necessitating clothing before the fall... But not for modesty.
September 8 at 12:52am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Oh, but you've missed so much in your absence.
September 8 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Hi Kathy
September 8 at 12:54am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Kathy, start reading. Lol
September 8 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Brian Dragoo or someone else should post a link to his talk on vulgar humor, etc.
September 8 at 12:55am · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm so proud of you all. Did I miss the 16000 party?
September 8 at 12:58am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Yes, very yes
September 8 at 1:05am · Like
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Monica Murphy Just scrolled up 1,000 comments (!!!) to find the original hymen conversation, and found the relevant magisterial quotations - thanks - in which the possibility of being born without a hymen at all isn't raised. Developments of modern science should, to some extent, affect our understanding of the Faith. The phrase 'in partu' perhaps reflects a lack of understanding about variations in female anatomy, variations including the hymen's presence/non-presence, size, thickness, shape, and flexibility. The Schoolmen (and, perhaps, comments on TNET) ASSUME a universal presence, thickness, flexibility, and shape of the hymen, and must therefore address the issues which a birth-through-hymen must entail. But as far as I know, it isn't an article of faith to believe that Mary was born with any sort of hymen at all--which makes the whole doctrine of perpetual virginity a lot easier to accept.
September 8 at 2:52am · Like · 2
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Monica Murphy And lest anyone think the above comment is too shocking for rational discourse, let's bear in mind that our bodies are "fearfully and wonderfully made", and that knowledge and discussion about the female body in no way precludes respect for its structure and power.
September 8 at 3:03am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Monica, interestingly, the Church was very deliberate in defining the perpetual Virginity of the Mary thus: "virgin before, during and after giving birth." It follows then, that even the physical (though not necessary) signs of her virginity are present.
September 8 at 3:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think in defining the doctrine thus, there is something wonderful, regardless of the misunderstandings of the council fathers had with respect to the intricacies of female anatomy.
September 8 at 3:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would argue that the physical signs of the blessed virgin more perfectly express her role as Sign ("sacrament"), Image, and Exemplar of the Church.
"And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut" Ezk 44:2
September 8 at 3:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, I was on my way to Mass. I do want you to think hard about what customary standards imply about a culture's stance on sexuality. You don't get the customs we have without being "sexually liberated" Same went for the Hawaiians and their promiscuous sexuality
Or you sure you want a boatload of documentation? I don't know want to quote from St. Thomas, as I presume you read the pertinent passages and somehow missed what I, and say Prümmer or Jone or Merkelbach or Tanquery saw in them
Would you accept any of them? If not, did you want the Vatican's declarations?
Would you dismiss the Congregation of the Council's Decree of January 12, 1930? Or the Congregation for Religious, August 23,1928, which explicitly condemns the current custom in dress....see if custom makes it not immodest, then Benedict XV was such an idiot in Sacra Propediem, condemning things that had ceased to be immodest, because custom.
Frankly I am shocked by you taking such a modernist take here. And I am not using that word lightly
For further benefit, I will reproduce what Prümmer says. Jone is clear, but I haven't him handy and he does tend to be legalistic
September 8 at 3:21am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And bikinis were explicitly designed to be immodest, even if the sin of singularity is what you reduce modesty too....underwear is often more modest. A bikini not only shows a lot, it is seductive in the little it hides and is made to draw the eye. There is a reason there are nude and topless joints and bikini joints too....all places to ogle women. But anyhow, found the Prümmer...give me a bit
September 8 at 3:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, thank you for the homework (and I do not mean that flippantly) I will take a look at those texts when I can find them and when I get a chance.
I am glad, at least, that you would be shocked that I would have a modernist take. Scott would just assume it of me. I only ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt for now as I am earnest in my pursuit of the truth and I am willing to be corrected if I am in error.
My position is largely based on the following texts which I am putting in English for the sake of others:
I answer that, It is not in the outward things themselves which man uses, that there is vice, but on the part of man who uses them immoderately. This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive." Secondly, the lack of moderation in the use of these things may arise from the inordinate attachment of the user, the result being that a man sometimes takes too much pleasure in using them, either in accordance with the custom of those among whom he dwells or contrary to such custom. Hence Augustine says (De Doctr. Christ. iii, 12): "We must avoid excessive pleasure in the use of things, for it leads not only wickedly to abuse the customs of those among whom we dwell, but frequently to exceed their bounds, so that, whereas it lay hidden, while under the restraint of established morality, it displays its deformity in a most lawless outbreak."
In point of excess, this inordinate attachment occurs in three ways. First when a man seeks glory from excessive attention to dress; in so far as dress and such like things are a kind of ornament. Hence Gregory says (Hom. xl in Ev.): "There are some who think that attention to finery and costly dress is no sin. Surely, if this were no fault, the word of God would not say so expressly that the rich man who was tortured in hell had been clothed in purple and fine linen. No one, forsooth, seeks costly apparel" (such, namely, as exceeds his estate) "save for vainglory." Secondly, when a man seeks sensuous pleasure from excessive attention to dress, in so far as dress is directed to the body's comfort. Thirdly, when a man is too solicitous [*Cf. Question [55], Article [6]] in his attention to outward apparel.
Accordingly Andronicus [*De Affectibus] reckons three virtues in connection with outward attire; namely "humility," which excludes the seeking of glory, wherefore he says that humility is "the habit of avoiding excessive expenditure and parade"; "contentment" [*Cf. Question [143], Objection [4]], which excludes the seeking of sensuous pleasure, wherefore he says that "contentedness is the habit that makes a man satisfied with what is suitable, and enables him to determine what is becoming in his manner of life" (according to the saying of the Apostle, 1 Tim. 6:8): "Having food and wherewith to be covered, with these let us be content;"—and "simplicity," which excludes excessive solicitude about such things, wherefore he says that "simplicity is a habit that makes a man contented with what he has."
In the point of deficiency there may be inordinate attachment in two ways. First, through a man's neglect to give the requisite study or trouble to the use of outward apparel. Wherefore the Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 7) that "it is a mark of effeminacy to let one's cloak trail on the ground to avoid the trouble of lifting it up." Secondly, by seeking glory from the very lack of attention to outward attire. Hence Augustine says (De Serm. Dom. in Monte ii, 12) that "not only the glare and pomp of outward things, but even dirt and the weeds of mourning may be a subject of ostentation, all the more dangerous as being a decoy under the guise of God's service"; and the Philosopher says (Ethic. iv, 7) that "both excess and inordinate defect are a subject of ostentation."
II-IIae, Q.169 a. 1.
September 8 at 3:33am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Additionally,
In the next article:
"But those women who have no husband nor wish to have one, or who are in a state of life inconsistent with marriage, cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see them, because this is to incite them to sin. And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to lust, they sin mortally; whereas if they do so from frivolity, or from vanity for the sake of ostentation, it is not always mortal, but sometimes venial. And the same applies to men in this respect. Hence Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): "I do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to marry, should think how they may please God: whereas the others think on the things of the world, either husbands how they may please their wives, or wives how they may please their husbands, except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their hair, since the Apostle commands them to cover the head." Yet in this case some might be excused from sin, when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary custom: although such a custom is not to be commended."
However, the standards for what excites men to lust are, in many ways, culturally and societally relevant. Not absolutely, but largely.
September 8 at 3:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would conclude, therefore, that even Bikinis on the beach, nowadays, do not do much to incite men to lust. But even here one must be careful, because not all Bikinis are the same. Some certainly seemed designed to do exactly that (a cursory glance at headlines from the UK's Daily Mail confirms this).
However, I only meant to express by the word "Bikini" swimming attire for women with brief style bottoms and bra styled tops with exposed middles.
September 8 at 3:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In conclusion I would say that you are right to identify many of "pop fashion" trends to be motivated by a sense of "sexual liberation." I would hold that it has largely become normative in our society that it is acceptable to incite the opposite sex to lust through dress and action. Such dress and behavior must be avoided.
As said above, however, many things which incite to lust are simply culturally relative.
September 8 at 3:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Nevermind, didn't find the Prümmer....where on eath does he deal with modesty?
Anyhow, the Jone distinction (around para 146 iirc) is between indecent (those parts Aquinas refers to as pudor), less becoming and always becoming. Those parts that are pudor, the privates e.g., it is always a mortal sin to expose to another of another sex, unless for grave reason or to one's spouse. Also inherently immodest to draw attention to those parts.
As I said, don't have Jone handy, but I am certain of the distinction and such, often in other terms, I have found elsewhere....maybe I can pick another moralist if you would prefer...
September 8 at 3:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman At least PM me if you find the relevant passage. I would be very interested in the argument.
September 8 at 3:43am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It might have to be tomorrow....my computer is balking at PDFs right now, and most of my hardbacks are in storage/
In the meantime, I finally found Pius XII here (many people quote him on this, but never give a citation)
"It is always difficult to indicate with universal norms the border-line between seemliness and shamelessness because the moral evaluation of attire depends on many factors. However, the so-called relativity of fashions with respect to times, places, persons, and education is not a valid reason to renounce a priori a moral judgment on this or that fashion which, for the time being, violates the limits of normal decency....
... Yet, no matter how broad and changeable the relative morals of styles may be, there is always an absolute norm to be kept after having heard the admonition of conscience warning against approaching danger: style must never be a proximate occasion of sin....
...The garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt society, but according to the aspirations of a society which prizes the dignity and seriousness of its public attire.
It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a people. But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to take: either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and civilization.....
The sound consistency of your principles will be put to the test by the so-called modern spirit, which cannot bear hindrance. And it will be tried by the same indifference of many toward the moral consideration of styles. The most insidious of sophisms are usually repeated to justify immodesty and seem to be the same everywhere. One of these resurrects the ancient saying ab assuetis non fit passio ("The passions are not aroused by things we are accustomed to") in order to brand as old-fashioned the rebellion of honest people against fashions which are too bold. Must it perhaps be shown how out of place the ancient saying is in such questions?
When We spoke of the absolute limits to be defended in the relativism of style, We mentioned the unfounded character of another fallacious opinion according to which modesty is no longer appropriate in the contemporary era which has now become free of all useless and ruinous scruples.
It can certainly be conceded that there are different degrees of public morality according to the times, the nature, and the conditions of the civilization of individual peoples. But this does not invalidate the obligation to strive for the ideal of perfection and is not a sufficient reason to renounce the high degree of morality that has been achieved, and which manifests itself precisely in the great sensitivity with which consciences regard evil and its snares.
http://www.sspxasia.com/.../Catholic_Morality/Fashions.htm (I wish there were a better site....I found it in AAS too, but why translate that when another has done it?)
Maybe this makes it clear that while I am certainly with you on some points, an article of clothing, designed to tantalize, and in accordance with that end was named after the site of the testing of the hydrogen bomb, and which is less functional and worse as swimwear than say one-piece or even more modest two pieces
I figure I have no warrant to quote from the American bishops, who did explicitly mention men exiting the house without a shirt on as horrible depravity....seeing as I mock those same bishops for condemning ballroom dancing.
ETA: It does seem you may be using bikini to mean two-piece. I am not sure what sense the Church had in mind when, among very few specific fashions that it did so with, it condemned bikinis (and hot pants). It was with the first Miss World thing, and Pius XII helped get the garment outlawed in many countries.
SSPXAsia.com: Fashions
[1] Reported in Osservatore Romano, November 9, 1957. Italian text. Translation based in part on one released by N.C.W.C. News Service.
SSPXASIA.COM
September 8 at 4:06am · Edited · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Daniel, the notion of an intact hymen as a sign of physical virginity has largely been discredited by medical professionals precisely for the reasons I've noted. According to recent studies, for example, less than half of all women bleed when they first have sex, and even an examination of the hymen itself by a physician cannot determine whether sex has occurred. Thus, the presence (or non-presence) of a hymen is not a physical sign of virginity in any woman, including the BVM. The articulation of the doctrine "during birth", as far as I can tell, stems from a) a misunderstanding of female anatomy, and b) a dangerous association between virginity and the presence of the hymen. If, however, we think more carefully about the phrase "virgo INTACTA . . . in partu", we can develop a slightly different understanding of the doctrine. "Intacta" meaning "untouched" by any man is not problematic for me. And "intacta" meaning "whole" or "unbroken" is not problematic if we dismiss the presence of a hymen altogether, or if we consider that the hymen can stretch, or that the female body is capable of a tortuous degree of stretching and changing during birth. For Mary's labor to happen painlessly and without tearing is quite miraculous enough. The advantages of the explanation I offer is that it a) avoids assuming the existence of something whose existence ought not to be assumed; b) avoids the erroneous, dangerous, and irrelevant association of the hymen with physical virginity; and c) preserves the important part of the doctrine, i.e. that Mary knew no man sexually, and that hence Christ's father was Divine. Whether or not the men who wrote the doctrine intended this or another understanding of the word "intacta" is perhaps analogous to how "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus" can be "reformulated positively"(CCC 846), without changing the original wording. And as for the passage from Ezekiel, one doesn't need to interpret it physically; she can "shut" her womb to men by her own free choice. Samantha?
September 8 at 4:07am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Both Augustine and Aquinas were well aware that the hymen could be broken in other ways. Aquinas explicitly says that when that happens it has no bearing on virginity. Only when broken through intercourse does it haev a connection, and an accidental one at that
And Vatican I's condemnation of the evolution of dogmas prevents us from giving a sense other than that which was meant at the time, to this or any other dogma (EENS is a can of worms there, a rabbit hole that should be avoided unless it can get central attention...)
September 8 at 4:11am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick I hate that this thread has some good discourse going on ... There is no way I can catch up even during night time feedings...
September 8 at 4:15am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Yes, I realize that A & A made that distinction. But unless I missed something in the quotations provided, I didn't see any evidence that they were aware that a woman could be born without a hymen at ALL. It's this fact, rather than the non-sexual perforation of the hymen, which has a bearing on interpreting the word "intacta".
September 8 at 4:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Why? A man can be born with 6 fingers, or 4 toes....I see no bearing merely because some women lack a hymen
September 8 at 4:19am · Like
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Monica Murphy Because if the BVM had no hymen, then giving birth "intacta" (in the sense of being "unbroken") makes much more sense than if she had a hymen, and somehow a baby had to get through it without breaking it. Given the doctrine as an article of faith, it makes more sense to interpret it in a way that makes sense with what we know about anatomy.
September 8 at 4:27am · Like
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Monica Murphy And, mine is a more palatable explanation of the doctrine in the context of evangelizing, when people are curious about what they must believe as a Catholic. I don't see that my explanation is heretical in any way, though it does demand less of the believer in terms of what is to be believed.
September 8 at 4:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Monica, I think your argument is very persuasive. However, it does seem that your position would challenge the Church's position on the "non-evolution" of dogma.
Also, I gave what might be described as a "mystical" argument for the fittingness of the Blessed Virgin Mary's possessing even the accidental physical signs.
Doesn't the position that I laid out make better sense of the dogma and the tradition? While at the same time, it does not violate anything proven by science.
September 8 at 4:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So granted that Ezekiel doesn't need to be interpreted that way, isn't there a greater fittingness if the physical signs were there.
September 8 at 4:39am · Like · 2
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Monica Murphy Daniel, I do think that the way you're interpreting it is closer to what the Fathers/Doctors themselves would have believed. However, my point is that what they believed about female anatomy was flawed. Moreover, nobody's proffered textual evidence that it's an article of faith to believe THAT Mary had a hymen. Yes, we have the phrase "virgo intacta", but the word "intacta" doesn't mean "has a hymen". It can, as I have shown, be interpreted in a way that aligns with modern medical knowledge. Finally, I reject the phrase "physical signs", accidental or non accidental, since (as I have argued) there are no true physical signs of virginity--especially in the case of a woman who has no hymen to start with.
September 8 at 4:52am · Like
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Monica Murphy Re. "non-evolution" - yes, I can understand your point about the danger, and I'm genuinely interested in figuring out whether my interpretation of the doctrine would be doctrinally acceptable. Aside from TNET, I've never seen/heard this issue discussed seriously, but I think it is an important topic especially given contemporary feminist criticisms of the historical fixation on the hymen as a proof of virginity.
September 8 at 4:58am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Also, I'm curious about how pushing an 8 lb baby through a thin membrane without tearing it would be explicable without violating what we know from science.
September 8 at 5:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, the dogma mentions explicitly that Mary was virgin "during" the birth of Christ. Unless one would hold that they were attempting to exclude the possibility that someone was having sexual intercourse with the Virgin during birth, then it seems that we are forced to accept that it is Dogma that the Virgin has a hymen and that it is still intact.
I suppose, then, that though the Council Fathers may have erred in their understanding of female anatomy, the Holy Spirit allowed this formulation and it seems we are bound to find a ratio for it.
Also, I will not use the phrase physical signs any longer in order to not offend. However, I think one can legitimately talk about something being a "sign" even if that sign is not a necessary sign.
September 8 at 5:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Here is St. John Paul II's catechesis on Mary's perpetual Virginity:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm31.htm
THE CHURCH PRESENTS MARY AS
Mary's perpetual virginity was the subject of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of...
EWTN.COM
September 8 at 6:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia I posted a quote from that earlier (TNET eternal return). It seems to be more ordered toward answering those certain protestants that believe that the BVM had other children. The "during" is never addressed
September 8 at 7:13am · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne This is really an issue of Mary being Theotokos and is more about special privileges being given to her than making implications about other women.
Going to work, but using the writings on the Sacred Heart (which have a lot to do with physicality) - what was not assumed would not be redeemed. Mary would not have been missing a body part or it would not have been redeemed.
The whole point is that the Blessed Virgin is the new Eve, Mother of all the living, and her Son the new Adam.
Something supernatural is beyond nature - therefore, science will be technically "incompatible" with miraculous occurrences - and the birth is referred to as miraculous and mysterious and without injury
September 8 at 7:26am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I think that's probably the best way to understand it.
September 8 at 7:31am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Mark Shea rounds up some "in partu" texts on Patheos (more pertinent than the ewtn article, and more damning to my explanation): http://www.patheos.com/.../2010/12/i-stand-corrected.html
I stand corrected
Way back in August 2009 I wrote concerning the in partu inviolability of Our Lady (i.e, that her hymen was...
PATHEOS.COM
September 8 at 7:45am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Going back to Michael Beitia's crypto-universalism. Let's discuss St Augustine's argument that the vast majority of people got to hell, and that this manifests God's justice better than if more people were saved. Recall:
«he who destroyed in himself a good which might have been eternal, became worthy of eternal evil. Hence the whole mass of the human race is condemned; for he who at first gave entrance to sin has been punished with all his posterity who were in him as in a root, so that no one is exempt from this just and due punishment, unless delivered by mercy and undeserved grace; and the human race is so apportioned that in some is displayed the efficacy of merciful grace, in the rest the efficacy of just retribution. For both could not be displayed in all; for if all had remained under the punishment of just condemnation, there would have been seen in no one the mercy of redeeming grace. And, on the other hand, if all had been transferred from darkness to light, the severity of retribution would have been manifested in none. But *many more are left under punishment than are delivered from it, in order that it may thus be shown what was due to all.* And had it been inflicted on all, no one could justly have found fault with the justice of Him who takes vengeance; whereas, in the deliverance of so many from that just award, there is cause to render the most cordial thanks to the gratuitous bounty of Him who delivers.» (Civ. Dei XXI,12)
Is he right?
September 8 at 8:03am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia how did I get to be a crypto-universalist?
September 8 at 8:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia and yes, Augustine is right.
September 8 at 8:07am · Like
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Monica Murphy Well, Daniel, maybe I simply disagree with the Fathers and we'll leave it at that. I'll have to go through that Patheos article and read/think about the excerpts carefully. P.S. Unless you're Peregrinesque, don't stop using a phrase you think has merit because you're worried about offending me or anyone else; I think we're all pretty good at disagreeing with each other without letting feelings get in the way.
September 8 at 8:19am · Edited · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Michael Beitia, I accussed you whilst you were off watching football.
September 8 at 8:09am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes, I saw the comment. I disagree with your analysis, but thought the comment more humor than argument.
September 8 at 8:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and unlike a universalist, I have no problem saying that if that is the case that ensouled zygotes pass with the menstrual cycle, unbeknownst to the mother, have original sin, and consequently do go to hell
September 8 at 8:16am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia with Hitler and Judas
September 8 at 8:16am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I have lots to say about that, Pater Edmund, but it will have to wait til nap time. Labor me vocat
September 8 at 8:26am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe OK, it seems I have a minute. Obviously, Augustine has to be right that all humanity is justly condemned, and God would be just to leave any number, great or small, of us to damnation. The problem to me comes in with these arguments about why God allows most to be condemned. First of all, he is assuming something we don't know, namely that most are not saved. Secondly, God's justice is more than amply displayed in Jesus's sacrifice. Scripture is clear that God desires all men to be saved (1st Timothy 2:4). He did not send his son to die for us merely to display his justice and mercy, but because he loves us. Augustine's explanation seems to leave that out.
September 8 at 9:08am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I'd be leery of writing "Augustine's explanation seems to leave that out"
remember, this isn't St. Thomas, and there's probably four pages of lead up and four pages afterward that qualifies exactly what he means, and to what position he is responding.
September 8 at 9:17am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I've read a lot of Augustine and I don't think he ever accounts for 1st Timothy 2:4 in a satisfactory way.
September 8 at 9:21am · Like
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Michael Beitia how do you account for history, given 1Tim2:4?
September 8 at 9:22am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But my point is about the specific argument Pater Edmund posted
September 8 at 9:22am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't feel the need to offer an account for history
September 8 at 9:27am · Like
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Michael Beitia of course not, I'm simply suggesting that there's a time element here between Christ's sacrifice for all men, Paul writing that God wants all men to come to knowledge of that, and then the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice being carried to the four corners of the Earth.
September 8 at 9:37am · Like
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Tom Sundaram Seems I can see TNET while others cannot!
September 8 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram It appears to be available still here in Rome.
September 8 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Haha
September 8 at 2:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Because you were tagged in the status it's now just you and me in an empty Hall of statues
September 8 at 2:08pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Tom Sundaram maybe we should try re-tagging people, like Michael Beitia
September 8 at 2:07pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram It is like Narnia in here. I wonder what happens if we tag...The Neverending Thread!!!
September 8 at 2:10pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram OH MAN THIS JUST GOT RECURSIVE AGAIN
September 8 at 2:10pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram BUT IN A WHOLE NEW WAY
September 8 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram hey Matthew J. Peterson I heard you like TNET so I put TNET in your TNET so you can TNET while you TNET
September 8 at 2:11pm · Like · 7
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Tom Sundaram Well, Poncho, looks like the Zuckerberg done took away all our Panama Red.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71n3PtdQWF4
Willie Nelson - The Party's Over
Track 7 of the 1967 LP 'The Party's Over'
YOUTUBE.COM
September 8 at 2:18pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram BUT BEFORE THE LAST LIGHTS ARE OUT, this being largely one of them TAC threads, it's only fitting to pour some whiskey on it and piss out all the fires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hMdoGet2A8
The Parting Glass - Peter Hollens - Assassin's Creed 4
Album Pre-Order: http://www.pledgemusic.com/peterhol...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 8 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Be careful: they can all see your footprints or they will see them tonight when I reopen the thread.
September 8 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Until then: The canvas is yours
September 8 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram If they are from TAC, presumably they will be glad that at least one of us did the honors.
September 8 at 2:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I closed TNET as part of an experiment I will reopen it tonight
September 8 at 2:21pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram You should wait three days. It would be more theological. MAGISTERIAL, even.
September 8 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Maybe I will select people like you every so often to write on the canvas
September 9 at 10:58am · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram Except that if you were to wait three days, I fear that Edward Langley would dissolve from inactivity.
September 8 at 2:22pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Hilarious that you are still here. Fitting since you started it, in a way.
September 8 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Hey, man, don't put this on me. I posted a link, you started a cult, the two are dissimilar.
September 8 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The only time your nerdfest line has been mentioned is when I mentioned once that no one had mentioned it. So strange.
September 8 at 2:29pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Yeah - it was the flame which, having lit the cigarette, was expended, and everyone on this thread has been chain-smoking the theology doobies ever since.
September 8 at 2:31pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I reposted a link you posted.
A link I'm pretty sure I posted earlier along with everyone else months ago.
Who am I to argue with what sprang forth?!?
Like a bizarre growth from a potato.
September 8 at 2:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sickening but you can't look away.
September 8 at 2:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The tension between naive TACers trying to reason with trollery proves fruitful.
September 8 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram More like an explosion in a fireworks factory - tragic, but beautiful, and every time it seems to end, another box explodes.
September 8 at 2:32pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And eternal
September 8 at 2:32pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram And that box's name is Scott.
September 8 at 2:34pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Behold. TNET returns.
September 9 at 10:53am · Like · 10
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Joel HF TNET is "The Entertainment" from Infinite Jest.
September 9 at 10:57am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia thanks for screwing with all of us, Peterson.... now I forgot what essential point I was about to make
September 9 at 11:01am · Unlike · 4
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Sean Robertson So where were we...
September 9 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I am actually curious if TNET can pick itself up again.
September 9 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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Joel HF So, Matthew J. Peterson was just hiding this the whole time? And note how long I held out. My willpower must be improving.
September 9 at 11:05am · Unlike · 6
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Sean Robertson I'm not going to do it, but maybe some ambitious soul could tag everyone back into it. Or we could get lives, I guess.
September 9 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm at "work" not a life I really want to live
September 9 at 11:08am · Like
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Sean Robertson I'm also wondering what exactly this "experiment" was.
September 9 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I wonder if I can nest the thread on my wall into a comment here....people were about to start arguing about marriage and the Odyssey...
September 9 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am an hopeless addict. I thought I was done. But then pater made an interesting comment and that was it. I am afraid they will have to pry TNET from my cold dead hands. As for Peterson, I should start back scrolling and unliking every one of his comments.
September 9 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia no, you need to like them all so that he gets moar notifications
September 9 at 11:13am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund So here is something that my father wrote on the olive tree bed in the Odyssey that I posted on Michael Beitia's ersatz for The Neverending Thread:
«Part of the archetypal power of this scene is that the marriage bed itself serves as “the great sign (μέγα σῆμα)” of recognition between husband and wife after their separation, just as it had been the sign of their union twenty years earlier. The center post of the bed, a living Olive tree rooted in the earth, expresses the stability of the interior space created by love. Odysseus built the bed with his own hands in such a way that it cannot be moved. The wedding chamber in the Odyssey is part of a large house, the royal palace, in which there is room for many people. The great good of hospitality, a central good in Homer and the whole tradition of the West, belongs to the very nature of spousal love. By its innermost nature, the space which love creates for itself is not a space for the spouses alone. From the very center of this space, from the bed and the conjugal act, a larger space is built, in which there is room for children and other guests.»
September 9 at 11:17am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund And then Joel HF objected, saying «a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly, at least as far the "[marriage] bed and the conjugal act" are concerned. This act and this place are of their nature private, and not common, goods.»
September 9 at 11:18am · Like
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Pater Edmund And then I posted the continuation of the above quote: «This comprehensive power of the conjugal act seems to be the reason for a curious way of speaking characteristic of this vision of marriage: the natural end or good of sex is the procreation and education of children. Thomas writes, “The end which nature intends from within sex (ex concubitu) is the procreation and education of offspring.” How does sex educate children? Not as an educational display. That much is clear. The point is, rather, the power of sex in building an intimate space, the core of a larger home, in which children can be welcomed as guests, grow and be educated.
In the Odyssey, this intimate space is brought out negatively by the absence of Odysseus during Telemachus’ childhood and adolescence. It is brought out positively by Penelope’s faithfulness to it during the same twenty years, despite the pressure of her many suitors—a decisively important factor in Telemachus’ growth into a mature man.
It is in this manner that sex is unitively procreative. The union it produces is an open union that leads of itself to hospitality for children and other guests. One can see this essential role of procreation both from the side of the children and from the side of the parents. From the side of the children, the wider space of a home that is built up from the more intimate space created by the love of husband and wife is exactly the space children need. They need it to be conceived in a way fitting for persons.... they also need it to grow and receive their education in the right setting, in a house animated by a spirit of love. From the side of the parents, the gift of children completes and fulfills the interior space of union which their love creates. The pain of couples who are unable to have children is a testimony to the greatness and joy of this fulfillment, despite the labors and difficulties that come with it.»
September 9 at 11:19am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia are you taking "space" metaphorically in to sense of "grounding" or "clearing" in the Heideggerian manner?
September 9 at 11:20am · Like
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Pater Edmund Yes, clearing is good. Lichtung.
September 9 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Aren't all private goods ordered to common goods in some way or another? And procreation is decidedly a private good. I also don't see, at least not clearly, why STA must be taken as saying that "sex educate[s] children" when he says that "[t]he end which nature intends from within sex (ex concubitu) is the procreation and education of offspring."
September 9 at 11:29am · Edited · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Yes, all private goods are ordered to a common good.
September 9 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Maybe you could say more about what he means by "space." I've not read Heidegger.
September 9 at 11:23am · Like
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Pater Edmund Children are not a private good, though, FYI.
September 9 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Neither have I.
September 9 at 11:23am · Like
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Joel HF In so far as the conjugal act is concerned, they are. My seed vs. yours. If you want, I can start pulling up biological papers on how male animals compete to impregnate the females. There is strong evidence that this is true even in humans.
September 9 at 11:24am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF In other words, children may be a common good, but this woman having my son *excludes* her having some other man's son.
September 9 at 11:25am · Like
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Pater Edmund Fair enough.
September 9 at 11:25am · Like
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Pater Edmund That's something Odysseus definitely understands...
September 9 at 11:26am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia but since the child is the production of two, it can't be private, no?
September 9 at 11:26am · Like
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Joel HF ^How do you mean?
September 9 at 11:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia the suitors
September 9 at 11:27am · Like
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Joel HF I'm still not following. What is the "it" here: "since the child is the production of two, it can't be private"? (Sorry I'm being so dense!)
September 9 at 11:28am · Like
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Paul Peterson You fail to note that Thomas Aquinas College requires more years in the study of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas than most colleges require minutes. I would be particularly interested in reading Caitlin Griffith's thesis.
September 9 at 11:29am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia The it refers to the exclusion of the suitors, or like you said, *my* child not *yours* which Odysseus understands given his treatment of the suitors.
September 9 at 11:30am · Like
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John Ruplinger Children are especially private. All other external goods may be taken away. But paternity / maternity, never.
September 9 at 11:31am · Like
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Michael Beitia tell that to the Social Security Administration......
September 9 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . . a defect in our laws that sees nothing as private or off limits to the state. I think the Roman law is better if not entirely right. The state long ago crossed and transgressed the threshold.
September 9 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you think marriage should be cum manu or not?
September 9 at 11:39am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger trouble maker. Anyways marriage law and marriages are pretty screwed up, not to mention family law. Discussion is impossible because of confusion. Livy reported that there was no record of divorce for the first 300 years (though the records had been destroyed at the sacking of the Gauls.)
September 9 at 11:50am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe TNET!!!!!!
September 9 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hurray!!!!!
September 9 at 12:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger After our duty to God comes that to our parents. The filial bonds have been severed. If the Romans erred, it was less than ours which has unbound all ties while leaving the individual entirely at the mercy / disposal of the state.
September 9 at 12:18pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF I forgot to say this earlier but: LEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOYYY *JENKINS*!
September 9 at 12:20pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU
September 9 at 12:21pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I always cite this:
"Man becomes a debtor to other men in various ways, according to their various excellence and the various benefits received from them . . . the principles of our being and government are our parents and our country, that have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to piety, in the second place, to give worship to one's parents and one's country."
St. Tommy Aquinas
September 9 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Haha, roman law sucks.
September 9 at 12:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Oh my goodness it's back! It's alive!
September 9 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I am curious as to the conclusions of your experiment, Matthew J. Peterson.
September 9 at 12:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, just catching up...
September 9 at 12:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this was all just a cruel experiment??
September 9 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What are we to you, Matthew J. Peterson??
September 9 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's like you shot us all up with heroine and then took it away!! Did you not think of the consequences??
September 9 at 12:54pm · Like · 8
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Matthew J. Peterson Your individual needs are inferior and subservient to the DEMANDS of political SCIENCE!
September 9 at 12:54pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Also, Michael Beitia, time for you to make good on your trash talk. Wasn't I supposed to be writhing in the crushing grip of your syllogistic megatisms?
September 9 at 12:54pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeez. That SCIENCE bit is terrifying.
September 9 at 12:55pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict And whoa - the words "go to hell" were actually used. I thought people were exaggerating about that, but no.
September 9 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe shocking, right? all of it
September 9 at 12:55pm · Like
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Sam Rocha WE'RE BACK!!
September 9 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Getting the band back together.
September 9 at 12:56pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/dzOHq5WbQ8k
We're Gettin the Band Back Together
Jake and Elwood Blues get the band back together in "the Blues Brothers"
YOUTUBE.COM
September 9 at 12:57pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I do enjoy that you and Tom were kicking around there in the infinite empty space of TNET while the rest of us were panicking
September 9 at 12:58pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson Hahaha.
September 9 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you're on repeat...
September 9 at 1:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this dumb coffee shop's dumb internet is making me sound dumb
September 9 at 1:02pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia *making* and *sound*
So does your husband have rights over you or your father.....
September 9 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pavlovian experiment for Peterson's class: "troll response conditioning of Thomists."
September 9 at 1:04pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia So really, wasn't Hegel right about the procession of world spirit in the realization of freedom?
September 9 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and Peterson, you haven't talked about the Federalist Papers *at all*....
September 9 at 1:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, during that brief hiatus, my marriage improved, I reconnected with my children, and rediscovered my purpose in life.
Man, am I glad TNET is back!
September 9 at 1:06pm · Like · 9
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Samantha Cohoe Legal rights, no. Moral rights, sure.
September 9 at 1:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My internet is too lousy, guess I have to actually work. Later y'all.
September 9 at 1:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger So is it agreed that children are private belonging to parents (and God) but for the common good (among which God is first)? And that the end of the marital union (in itself private) has the education (broadly speaking) of children as its highest end though the sanctification of spouses is not to be trivialized as an end of marriage? At least we are not "autonomous" cogs of the state (or Peterson's experiment).
September 9 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia legally or morally?
September 9 at 2:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, that sounds right. How about elaborating on the supposed advantages of Roman law?
September 9 at 2:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger legally, we may be owned by TNET, a subsidiary of Peterson's Labs. But I don't know if that extends to progeny.
September 9 at 2:25pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Roman advantage: we belong to dad, not the state.
September 9 at 2:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if we had Roman custom, how could I tell my wife apart from my daughter? They'd have the same name....
September 9 at 2:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger no. Only daughters have the same name. That was what the Romans used math for (eg. Iulia Prima . . Iulia secunda . .etc. That was kind of weird but the boys weren't much different: viz. Decimus, Quintus and Sextus.)
September 9 at 2:36pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how many Julias were there?
September 9 at 2:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.luc.edu/roman-emperors/jclaud1.gif
LUC.EDU
September 9 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or you could have a Julia and a Julilla
September 9 at 2:38pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Life of Julia.
September 9 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Roman disadvantage, we belong like property to dad. modern advantage, we're not property.
September 9 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Everybody go look at today's google doodle!!!
September 9 at 2:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It is so great!
September 9 at 2:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To whom do children belong by law, today, as the laws are written?
September 9 at 2:59pm · Like
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Megan Baird Wait, when did TNET return? Or did it really disappear?
September 9 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele what, it's back?!
September 9 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha modern Roman law doesnt work that way; vide Spanish, French, Scots, and "Romano-Dutch" codes
September 9 at 3:01pm · Like
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Megan Baird It's a miracle!!
September 9 at 3:01pm · Like
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Megan Baird (Ok, slight exaggeration but still...)
September 9 at 3:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, what do you mean, modern Roman law?
September 9 at 3:03pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I mean, the Roman-civil system which obtains in most of the world now
September 9 at 3:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is that what John is talking about?
September 9 at 3:04pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm just saying that Roman law is a living thing; it wasn't clear to me how narrowly John meant it
September 9 at 3:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I just assumed ancient Roman law. apologies to John if I misinterpreted him
September 9 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I was contrasting the extreme of ancient Roman law with the modern extreme.
September 9 at 3:07pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh i see- sorry Samantha!
September 9 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe John, I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine children belong to themselves, in the custody of their parents, with some oversight from the state
September 9 at 3:08pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Actually, you're all wrong - true Roman law defers to the principle that everyone belongs to Dean Martin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYd_8I44YL8
Dean martin- You Belong To me
This song makes me cry. Visit my channel! ＆ Suscribe!
YOUTUBE.COM
September 9 at 3:13pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger That "some" is the undefined. Moreover you agreed above that children belonged to their parents.
September 9 at 3:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's why I put 'em to work. DO THE DISHES!
September 9 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante children in Christian law (civil and common-law) do not belong to their parents; they are dominus sui, but this status is held as it were in trust by the parents until the children are of age, very much like property held in trust
September 9 at 3:15pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe "belong" is said in many ways
September 9 at 3:17pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram But when the parents die or disown the children, the children, having no legal identity, lose their names - as a result, they are "facies sine nomini", for which reason they are sent back to Houston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rt1VicF5-0
Dean Martin - Houston
Dean Martin on TV, singing and covering his mouth with a harmonica through "Houston".
YOUTUBE.COM
September 9 at 3:17pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, what JA said.
September 9 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do people call you JA? What is your actual name?
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah, but all your base are belong to us.
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^re-phrase?
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The honor owed to the state would be much clearer if America's laws were like, e.g., German law where, when one gets married, one must go to the Standesamt, the office in each city which certifies marriage. Then, if one wants a church wedding, one can have that too. But the state controls marriages.
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha I prefer "His Highness"
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram more like his mustacheness
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's JAson
September 9 at 3:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe well, I like you, JA, but I'm not calling you that
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia with the extra capital
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell "Hercule Poirot"
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF "Masked Man of Mystery" JA Escalante?
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram You have to shout the first syllable.
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It might or might not be Jason.
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram It's pronounced "JAH! Sawn!"
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no. . . JA!son
September 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram with a click somewhere in the middle.
September 9 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how else are we to do homage to almighty Jah
September 9 at 3:20pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The first syllable is "jai" like in "jai guru deva"
September 9 at 3:20pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but there are two other Christian names, one of whose initials is A, and the other of which I left out here. Hence, JA because FB wont let me use periods
September 9 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^now we're talking!
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What does a masked man of mystery do for a day job? (You know, purely to keep people from guessing his secret identity).
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Joel HF: Professional kitten murder. I've seen him.
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger JA what \ when is the origin of the use of "dominus sui"?
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel I read hearts. Especially Tom's.
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Calvinist websites to prevent people like me from slipping back into the arms of Romanism, is what I've been told
September 9 at 3:21pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and intercede with much groaning, esp for the Toms of the world
September 9 at 3:22pm · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram Mine reads like the script of A Clockwork Orange!
September 9 at 3:22pm · Like
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Joel HF Tom's heart is an open book. Everyone has read it. Boooring!
September 9 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram that's actually from his intestinal gas problems from being such a windbag.
September 9 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante John it goes back to medieval law; it's Thomas' definition of "person"
September 9 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia really? going to be serious?
September 9 at 3:23pm · Like
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Joel HF JAson has a website?
September 9 at 3:23pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm keeping the light on for you, Samantha.
September 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://youtu.be/PN9n1bAahg4
The Beatles - Across The Universe
Lyrics: Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup They slither while they pass They slip away across...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think they need to use the term "popery" more often
September 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia especially in conjunction with "romish"
September 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I use those all the time. I just haven't here because I'm so careful not to offend you all.
September 9 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I can't take a medieval law discussion seriously without being accused of Romish popery
September 9 at 3:26pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF-- my brother goes around telling everyone I'm just stalling on coming back into the fold.
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so do we know what happened to TNET?
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Popery - it makes a pleasing odor to the Lord
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante was it "reported"?
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Let's not forget "ultramontanism" ...
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson shut it down to jerk everyone's chain
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson was screwing with us
September 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram You guys were jonesing for your fix hahaha
September 9 at 3:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia didn't you see my wall? It's like the TNET methadone program
September 9 at 3:28pm · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell Damn straight.
September 9 at 3:28pm · Like
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Joel HF I think it's the "Vicar of Wakefield" that opens w/ a scene of the young boy running to his mother, all out of breath, and crying how they found a peddlar who was a real papist! And so naturally all the young lads of the neighborhood began chasing him and throwing stones at him, as you do.
September 9 at 3:30pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And like methadone, just couldn't replace the real thing
September 9 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I was like a junkie without a spoon.
September 9 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram you mean "method one"?
September 9 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia nope methadone
September 9 at 3:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^Arrested Development reference
September 9 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia aaah... me no ever seen
September 9 at 3:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell A nu start
September 9 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF My new career will be a cross between a therapist and an analyst. I'm going to call myself an "analrapist."
September 9 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell A classic from the mid-90's:
http://youtu.be/OUJI9Uwb3fo
Sonia Dada- Lesters Methadone Clinic
Sonia Dada- Lesters Methadone Clinic original song from the album 'a day at the beach'
YOUTUBE.COM
September 9 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Truest, most profound quote from AD-- "I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Arizona."
September 9 at 3:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This works for a lot of other states as well, for instance "I'd rather be dead in California than alive in Texas"
September 9 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF A civil war general (unless I'm totally wrong) once said "If I owned Hell and Texas, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell."
September 9 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^That would be Gen. Philip Sheridan.
September 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe wise man.
September 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No Texans here? I thought that would be more inflammatory.
September 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Where is Sam Rocha?
September 9 at 3:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Texas sucks I suffered through one year in Irving.....
September 9 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I have some fine Texan friends. Some much obliging and friendly folks.
September 9 at 3:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb almost got a job in Houston when he first went on the market. Shiver. Dodged that bullet.
September 9 at 3:42pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Dallas is trble
September 9 at 3:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Houston is maybe worse.
September 9 at 3:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Texas has Rich Linklatter though.
September 9 at 3:44pm · Like
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Joel HF And he is brilliant.
September 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Houston is great ... the only city in Texas with culture.
September 9 at 3:44pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger San Antonio is real.
September 9 at 3:45pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The Menil Collection, Rothko Chapel, opera, ballet, symphony, wine bars and breakfast tacos. What more could you ask for?
September 9 at 3:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Pacific ocean, mountains, less than a bazillion percent humidity, seasons
September 9 at 3:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^ all things I could ask for
September 9 at 3:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe walkability
September 9 at 3:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe urban density
September 9 at 3:47pm · Like
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Joel HF A few weeks ago I told Catherine that we should see Boyhood. There's a 10 am matinee on Saturday, I said. No one will be there, I said. Aurelia sleeps like a rock in the morning, I said. We'll sit in the back, no one will even notice we are there, I said.
We left the crowded theater like we had robbed a bank. Out the sidedoor through the alley into the car in seconds flat.
September 9 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson and another lifted me up to change the letters on the sign at the historic stock yards in Forth Worth one very inebriated night.....
I wonder if he remembers that surreal evening
September 9 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I couldn't reach the top row of letters so that stayed "tonight only:"
September 9 at 3:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I remember
September 9 at 3:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the corral of women?
September 9 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That cowboy mafia bar we had to leave
September 9 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia never felt more "Yankee" in my life
September 9 at 3:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Some sex trafficking we stumbled into, apparently.
September 9 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia cheap vodka though
September 9 at 3:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Me this morning:
"Villains!" I shrieked, "dissemble no more! I admit the deed! --tear up the planks! --here, here! --it is the beating of TNET's hideous heart!"
September 9 at 3:53pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Michael Beitia & Matthew J. Peterson--this sounds like the beginning of a Coen Brother's movie.
September 9 at 3:55pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I've been to Austin. Good music and food. (I happened to be there during a punk festival... Never so many unique snowflakes wearing the same uniform. Some of the older Brit bands were there;can you still be punk in your 70's?)
September 9 at 5:23pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Austen = Austin? Freudian slip?
September 9 at 4:17pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Maybe Samantha, you would like it in Austin?
September 9 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joel, every time I hear "Fly trapped in a jar" it reminds me of Fort Worth
September 9 at 4:42pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe Austen. Probably not Austin.
September 9 at 4:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Austin is one of the hottest and most happening cities in the USofA right now. But maybe that's your problem with it too.
September 9 at 4:45pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm puzzled by where, in fact, Samantha *does* want to live. Let's see: the pacific ocean, mountains, not too much humidity, seasons? Walkability, urban density? California is right out then. I guess you want to live in Portland, then.
September 9 at 4:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Hipster.
September 9 at 4:51pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Austin is so over, Matthew. Detroit is where it's at.
September 9 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Those were disjunctive
September 9 at 4:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But yes, I'm torn
September 9 at 4:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pretty much every beach town in CA is walkable.
September 9 at 4:56pm · Like
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Joel HF ^False
September 9 at 4:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, seasons?
September 9 at 4:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Unless you mean "the beach portions only" or something
September 9 at 4:57pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, there are seasons here. That's a fact of naychure. Usually what people want is northeastern fall, however. So drive up to NorCal and get a taste.
September 9 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You *want* urban density?
September 9 at 4:59pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF If we pretend that California has real seasons, then the Bay Area might answer. Though there aren't *really* mountains. But I maintain that Portland fits all the the categories mentioned. Everything south fails one way or the other.
September 9 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Try Claremont sometime. Walkable. Craftsman homes. Mountains. And ocean and all that Los Angeles has to offer close by.
September 9 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Caleb Cohoe would love to teach at any of the Claremont Colleges.
September 9 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Anne Marie Haha. It has evolved into a discussion of the weather. You guys are really grasping here
September 9 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And they need him.
September 9 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Although, does it have to be in the US? Maybe Vancouver? Holy cow, I think Caleb Cohoe has gotten to Samantha! Resist Canada Samantha! Resist it!
September 9 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Wasn't the "Straus House" in Claremont? Peterson, I think you have a very loose definition of walkable. I will admit a partiality to the inland empire.
September 9 at 5:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you are in NorCal you just drive to the foothills of the Sierras, one of the most beautiful ranges in the world, and you pick apples and get your fall out there in gold country.
September 9 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Based on the list Samantha Cohoe provided, I think Vancouver wins in a landslide. Caleb's plan of luring her to Canada is about to come to fruition.
September 9 at 5:05pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Claremont by the colleges is all Craftsman homes and walkable/cute downtown village area. Even outside of that it's great for biking and walking. Wilderness trail a mile or so from Strauss house - saw a bear there once.
September 9 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley California is overrated.
September 9 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Anne Marie This is my beef with the CA season thing. Yes, California has seasons. Southern California has seasons too, which are very subtle and not, I repeat, not the classic four seasons. Not even a mild version. They are something different, but things do change and the changes are pretty nice for the most part. I just wish people ( including Californians!) would stop forcing the four season thing on SoCal. It doesn't work.
September 9 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Walkability has to exist in the context of a good network of public transport (buses / streetcars / subways). New York City is walkable with the aid of buses and subways -- you can get anywhere.
September 9 at 5:12pm · Like
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Anne Marie And admittedly, now that I read back a few comments ( not 1000's, just a couple , that you guys were discussing a rather elevated topic of cities and places to live. And I dragged in the season thing. Haha.
September 9 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Walkability = Able to live without a car
September 9 at 5:13pm · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--you sound like Ron and Sheila Albertson at the end of Waiting for Guffman: "Well, here we are in the land of dreams,
and don't let anybody tell you dreams can't come true. We're an hour from the snow, we're 20 minutes from the ocean, And we're gonna get there one of these days. Soon as we get a car. We don't have a car yet. Who wants to add to the pollution? We consider ourselves bl-coastal if you consider [Lake Erie] one of the coasts'
September 9 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson is right, NorCal is my ideal, but we'd move to Claremont in half a freaking second if Caleb got a job there. But then, who am I kidding, we'd move to Austin in half a second if Caleb got a job at UT.
September 9 at 5:15pm · Like · 2
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Anne Marie "Can you smell the salt in the air?" Best line of the movie.
September 9 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And yes, I like urban density if I'm in a city. But like I said, my list is disjunctive. The point is, Houston had *none* of those things
September 9 at 5:16pm · Like
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Joel HF Do air pollution and extreme heat count for nothing?
September 9 at 5:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, as much as I hate to admit it, Vancouver certainly has a few things going for it...
September 9 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sadly, aside from ruling out a few egregiously horrible places, I get very little say in where we end up.
September 9 at 5:18pm · Like
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Gabe Haggard Is this a good place to bring up Apple products?
September 9 at 5:19pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Houston does have NONE of those things, but my earlier claim about the cultural glories of Houston was based on an IF/THEN: IF one must live in Texas, then Houston is the best. Just wait until Caleb gets a job offer at Rice!
September 9 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Gabe Haggard I really want an Apple Watch.
September 9 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Hahaha...great line.
But you don't have to believe it.
The village in Claremont is small about as walkable as it gets, I can and do drive up to the mountains in 10 minutes.
And I walk to my work.
We also walk to Trader Joe's, mass, good restaurants, grocery stores and pretty much anything else you could imagine.
But we have a wonderful deal re the beautiful house we rent, and I do drive a long commute for my other job - because I don't have a tenure track one here - so in a sense this is all fiction.
But with the right position here, yes, you can have it all.
September 9 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe sooo..... is Claremont hiring an ancient philosopher this year?
September 9 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Basically all you need is...a s$&t-ton of money.
September 9 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "The right position"
September 9 at 5:22pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Cash rules everything around us ... dolla dolla bill y'all.
September 9 at 5:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is this a good time to go back to the subject of how TAC should be more ordered to worldly success?
September 9 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Like I said, whenever Matthew J. Peterson starts talking about California, he sounds like the Albertsons from Waiting for Guffman.
September 9 at 5:23pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Similarly, you can walk to a lot in Santa Monica. All you need is for daddy to have been an ambassador and you to be his errant communist leaning daughter.
September 9 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I kid because I love, yet, nevetheless, it is funny because it is true.
September 9 at 5:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You can walk to a lot in Manhattan Beach. When you aren't driving that humble Tesla.
September 9 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or else you just need your Californian parents to NOT HAVE SOLD THEIR HOUSE ON THE CENTRAL COAST TO MOVE TO FRICKING OHIO.
September 9 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson In the right season, Claremont is like walking around an arboretum/botanical garden too. Love it.
September 9 at 5:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF The problem with TAC being ordered to worldly success is that, if you drink the kool aid there, you've already failed by worldly standards.
September 9 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF How mad do you think the fine folks at Kool Aid are that it wasn't even Kool Aid that was served at Jonestown?
September 9 at 5:26pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Dayton. Ohio. I kid you not.
September 9 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Some executive is pulling out his hair and screaming "Damn it all! It was *Flavor Aid*!"
September 9 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF There are not enough Waiting for Guffman clips on youtube. eom.
September 9 at 5:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill FYI: Money magazine has an article on Liberal Arts colleges this month.
September 9 at 5:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Santa Barbara is also very walkable, if your man servants walk for you while you lay atop your solid gold litter.
September 9 at 5:28pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I've found New York to be perfectly walkable as well. Why, my butlers would take Fido out for a walk in Central Park every day, and they never had any problems with any of that horrid riff-raff!
September 9 at 5:29pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Um. Actually, I do still have that beach house in Santa Barbara... for now. BTW, can everybody here pray that my lousy relatives don't decide to sell it? We can have a TNET party there if your prayers are heard.
September 9 at 5:30pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson There actually IS a botanical garden I can almost see from our place.
September 9 at 5:30pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF If I were rich, one of my many houses would definitely be in the bay area though. Maybe another in Santa Barbara as well. Or maybe Big Sur. Decisions, Decisions.
September 9 at 5:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If I were rich, I would buy out the other 96% of Grama's house from my lousy relatives.
September 9 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson We have the same wish re part of a beautiful family property in CA.
September 9 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And it's in NorCal, just to show how cosmopolitan I am.
September 9 at 5:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Vancouver would be incredible if it weren't for the whole Canadian thing.
September 9 at 5:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Exactly. I'm so close to getting Caleb to agree to US citizenship, too.
September 9 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley It's back!!!! I'm late to the game, huh? Have we cast lots to elect a new troll yet?
September 9 at 5:56pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe No one can replace Scott. He is troll par excellence.
September 9 at 6:07pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Trollissimus!
September 9 at 6:16pm · Like · 2
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Anne Marie Matthew J. Peterson, silly, un cultured ignorant American snob
September 9 at 6:16pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley Ohhhhhhhhh, Canada, you just kill me.
September 9 at 6:19pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I was giving you how incredible Vancouver is.
September 9 at 6:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Where is The Two Faced Peregrine anyhow? What happened? Did I miss something?
September 9 at 6:20pm · Like
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Anne Marie An improvement for sure. You've come a long way. Andrew Whaley, however....
September 9 at 6:21pm · Like
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Anne Marie Matthew , shhhhhhhhhhh
September 9 at 6:22pm · Like
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Anne Marie Don't wake him from his slumber! Then again, if you are aiming for 100k comments, then maybe it's a good move. I missed about 15,500 comments, so I have no idea what went down since the beginning of The Never Ending Thread.
September 9 at 6:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau grab some popcorn and start reading Anne Marie. I think you could skip the first 1200 comments...
September 9 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What does it say about The Threadness that Matthew J. Peterson can turn it on and off at will? And more scarily, what does it imply about him? WHAT IS HE?!?!
September 9 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Anne Marie I am pretty sure I actually missed about 16.4 comments, but had forgotten how many there were when I posted my last comment. What are the juiciest parts?
September 9 at 6:29pm · Edited · Like
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Anne Marie Yes, I just asked that as if someone could just summarize this thread in a few sentences. Haha!
September 9 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau we try to do that every 1000 posts or so but it is impossible to capture the nuances.
September 9 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Goddard lots of girls in that photo
September 9 at 6:31pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Actually - I'd like to see someone try to encapsulate it.
September 9 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger venimus, vidimus, vicimus in less than 17,000 comments.
September 9 at 7:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley Matthew J. Peterson, I agree. Sssshhhhhhhh. It's like Candyman. If his name is spoken too many times on the thread...
September 9 at 6:35pm · Like
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Anne Marie Jody , I agree. We could make it a competition and award this trophy for the prize!
September 9 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia TNET is too long..... TNET is too short... TNET is
September 9 at 6:40pm · Like
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Anne Marie A little fun with google. I just could not resist finding an image of a troll trophy. Mea culpa, Peregrine. I mean no harm http://concordiamn.prestosports.com/.../20130919tnj1c2
The Ugliest Rivalry Trophy In The Nation
Concordia will renew its rivalry with St. Olaf on Saturday with the winner getting to take home the ugliest rivalry...
CONCORDIAMN.PRESTOSPORTS.COM|BY PRESTOSPORTS
September 9 at 6:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Does anyone know of any studies done on the use of iPads in the classroom?
September 9 at 6:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I missed the first several thousand comments, but my favorites topics include: which truths of natural theology can be known by reason, the evils of a-historical Aristothomas, who is the biggest jerk on the thread (this competition is ongoing), NFP, whether the Church Fathers maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and women, whether sexual desire can ever be acted upon without admixture of concupiscence, whether Augustine maybe had some not awesome ideas about sex and women, whether Aquinas messed up about the Immaculate Conception because of his over-reliance on reason, when ensoulment happens, twinning, Mrs. Gustin, which composer is the best, whether TAC could do a better job helping its graduates find jobs and get into grad school, whether the prestige of one's college education is helpful to one's career (believe it or not, people actually argued no on that one), why Jane Austen is indisputably great, whether Mary remained "physically intact" through childbirth--the last one is what made Scott really and truly lose it.
September 9 at 7:10pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe That's just a sampling, really, Anne Marie
September 9 at 7:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley At the risk of bringing this thread down, my old business partner's wife is on full life support, following multiple cardiac arrests and the installation of an artificial heart. Her lungs are now failing and the family is begging prayers. They have a baby son. Take a moment if you have it.
September 9 at 7:03pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "Why Jane Austen is indisbutably great..." hahaha that gave me a chuckle
September 9 at 7:04pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Will do, Mr. Whaley.
September 9 at 7:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha - *indisputably. Been taking spelling lessons from Jane again?
...I tease, I tease!
September 9 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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Matthew Dugandzic I wondered why this kept coming up on my newsfeed, and then I saw that this thread had over 16.5k comments.
Peterson, I'm sure that this is the most press TAC has ever gotten. You should bill them.
September 9 at 7:06pm · Like · 8
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, and there was that whole Straussian interlude, intermixed with a lot of talking about Virgil
September 9 at 7:09pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe evolution! modesty!
September 9 at 7:10pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Don't forget the part where TAC was founded by heretics and is a heretic factory. That is kind of what got the engine going. Then there was the whole thing about who Peregrine really is and what is in his political past. So many topics, so little time!
September 9 at 7:20pm · Like · 7
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Liz Neill Andrew, I will be praying. How awful.
September 9 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BTW Matthew, Peregrine defriended me a day or two ago . . . you also I noticed.
September 9 at 7:33pm · Like
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Nick Zepeda John and Matthew: It's because you're arrogant. Accept it or it will destroy you.
September 9 at 8:18pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "Humility of Heart". It has made me well aware. But a tough book.
September 9 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how can you summarize the ineffable?
September 9 at 9:53pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda Are we just reminiscing about the golden age of tnet?
September 9 at 10:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia apparently...
Scott!? Where are you?
September 9 at 10:26pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The gimp is sleeping. In this case, don't wake him up (sorry: I just saw the 20th-anniversary edition of Pulp Fiction on the big screen tonight).
September 9 at 10:37pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Off topic again: In Scotus and others, what do the abbreviations stand for? E.g. lib. 4 dist. 1. qu. 7 n.2 . I know lib. and qu. Is dist. 'distinction'? What is n.?
September 10 at 12:09am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Dist is distinction, follow Peter Lombard's Sentences, which Scotus, and more expertly Aquinas, commented on, qc stands for "little question" (quaestiuncula).
n. is numerus, whether the number of a page or line
September 10 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Is this back??!
September 10 at 12:38am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz For a complete list afaik
a. articulum
ad - response to an objection or sed contra
arg. argumentum (an objection)
cap- caput (chapter)
c. - caput/chapter (but only when after the number of a book)
col- columna (column)
c./co.- corpus, body of text
f. folium
ff. folia
lect. - lectio
lib. - liber
lin. - linea
n. numerus
p. - before a number, pagina
praef. preface
s.c.- sed contra
t. tomus
v.- versus
September 10 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Adrw Lng, it never left...we left it!
September 10 at 12:42am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz I probably missed something obvious there.... JA Escalante, any more useful abbreviations for citing scholastic texts?
September 10 at 12:46am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante yeah, tl;dr
September 10 at 12:47am · Like · 5
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Adrw Lng Quaestiuncula could be a cute nickname for TNET
September 10 at 12:54am · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Very funny!
September 10 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell TNET bears more resemblance to Aristotle's Problems.
September 10 at 1:13am · Like · 2
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James Layne I've really been away from TAC too long. I came back to browse this EPIC thread a little and then skipped to the end, and it took me awhile to realize that Catherine Ryland indeed was not requesting information for how to cite opinions from the Supreme Court of the United States. Oh yeah, the OTHER SCOTUS.
Someone print this all out and make a book of it. It's amazing.
September 10 at 1:29am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Hi people.
September 10 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Here I was trying to be helpful
In all seriousness though, anyone think Scott will be back?
September 10 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz People: Hi John Boyer
September 10 at 1:37am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Daniel P. OConnell, you mean it's spurious?
September 10 at 1:37am · Like
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James Layne I hope he was banned. What a troll. I saw some of his rambling above. He's either unhinged or completely insincere. That he sincerely believes what he writes is inconceivable.
September 10 at 1:44am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell John Boyer: Ha, no. Just in terms of the structure. A series of problems posed and answered ... as long as one cuts out the goatfeathers ... although those are sometimes the most enjoyable part.
September 10 at 1:42am · Like
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James Layne I feel like with the length of this thread someone should insert a rambling diatribe about their philosophy of history.
September 10 at 1:51am · Edited · Like · 7
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Anne Breiling and maybe some Townes Van Zandt... #whynot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGOxo0KDMs&index=7...
I'll Be Here In The Morning (Townes Van Zandt)
The sun is rising, and despite the clouds and blowing...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 10 at 3:04am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Thank you for your help, Joshua! That is splendid.
September 10 at 7:26am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, is this the wake for TNET? If it is, I want to know final stats.
September 10 at 8:47am · Like
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Michael Beitia where's Scott when you need some poetry?
"that's the way the TNET ends
that's the way the TNET ends
That's the way the TNET ends
not with a bang but a whimper."
September 10 at 9:27am · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Just the dark ages of TNET. Everyone is busy doing penance, or "working".
September 10 at 9:27am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia work sucks more TNET!
September 10 at 9:31am · Like
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Joel HF Reports of TNET’s demise are greatly exaggerated. Especially since these are just a few of the topics we haven’t discussed yet:
America: Just how blindingly obvious is it that America was founded on evil enlightenment principles? or We totally used to sing songs that sound like they could be understood to refer to the common good in some way!
Vaccination: Does vaccination hurt kids?
Agrarianism: Only for well-heeled white folks with rich fantasy lives? or Why the lower classes just need to accept their hunger pangs, periodic food shortages are totally ordered to the common good!
Capitalism: Evil and contrary to CST? or Those kids in China WANT to work 16 hours shifts totally by their own free choice in those lovely factories and no Pope has ever written against it ever! (Except for Francis, Benedict XVI, JPII, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XI, etc.)
September 10 at 11:24am · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe How about this Mike (can I call you Mike?)-- Paul says god "overlooked the times of ignorance." Maybe that's how I account for history while denying that the majority of people necessarily go to hell.
September 10 at 9:38am · Like
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Joel HF Predestination is always good as well.
September 10 at 9:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia Predestination is good. Let's all cherry pick our favorite Bible quotes:
Jer. 25:27
September 10 at 9:40am · Like
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Joel HF Rm 8:30.
September 10 at 9:45am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh so it's fine to quote popes, but as soon as I cite the Bible it's "cherry picking"
September 10 at 9:46am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Papists
September 10 at 9:46am · Like
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Joel HF Papists (other than those that agree with me) love to cherry pick quotes from popes. But we can save that for the Capitalism discussion.
September 10 at 9:47am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia In Communism, man is slave to the state. In Capitalism, man is slave to the corporation.
September 10 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^not a pope quote^
September 10 at 9:51am · Like
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Joel HF Sed contra "Russia, China, Cuba, etc. etc. weren't *really* Communist states, so Marx's theories are still valid." And also, "Yes, that's true of *Crony* Capitalism, but true Capitalism hasn't been tried yet. Once the state gets out of the way, you'll see. Utopia for everyone."
September 10 at 9:52am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia let's not talk theory here, (conra TAC) but let's talk real existing socialism, or real existing capitalism.
Fact: the skeleton in the closet of capitalist economies is that if you go far enough down it rests on real or virtual slave labor.
September 10 at 9:55am · Like
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Joel HF ^yup.
September 10 at 9:55am · Like
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Joel HF But is there anyone on here who will defend capitalism as existing?
September 10 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Predestination: Is the Calvinist (and Lutheran?) view really different from STA, and if so how and how much? (I have no clue myself. One of you schmahrties can let me know.)
September 10 at 10:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger yeah. This is exactly how capitalism and communism work. There are flaws in the theoretical. What we have seen is what you get.
September 10 at 10:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia Killed it. Economics - solved
September 10 at 10:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As far as real, existing stuff goes, I'd prefer to be in America over the last century than in Russia - and so would everyone else here, despite the pretensions of parity.
September 10 at 10:10am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And the same goes for China.
September 10 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia only prefer to be here cause little slave kids made your IPhone for you
September 10 at 10:11am · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson This is true, and one could substitute China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.
September 10 at 10:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But, of course, I'm supposed to qualify that by saying that's just accidental and America actually sucks just as bad in theory.
Because: intellectualism.
September 10 at 10:12am · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, in my proposed questions above, did you note how irenically I phrased the two options on America's founding?
September 10 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And we are never supposed to use the "if you don't like it, leave it for some place better" argument because being grateful for what we have is somehow immoral in this day and age and that argument is silly because...we likes to be close to the precious even as we hateses it, I suppose.
Eh.
September 10 at 10:14am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I loved your magnanimous flourish there.
September 10 at 10:14am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Also, we are never supposed to listen to people from other countries who like it here or any immigrant story of success because that's all just propaganda.
September 10 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In an ideal world, those people wouldn't have to come here, and therefore we suck.
September 10 at 10:16am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nothing wrong with being grateful, *however*, it is important to understand how un-utopian it really is.
How much U-S-A U-S-A!!!!!! chest thumping do we really need?
September 10 at 10:16am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In an ideal world, we could choose other options other than the one's that have actually existed over the last century even as America corrupts itself.
September 10 at 10:17am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't see a lot of USA thumping anywhere.
September 10 at 10:17am · Like
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Michael Beitia I mouse over your facebook picture and I see 130 mutual friends.....
September 10 at 10:18am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I see a lot of watered down Zinn and a (justifiably and understandably) dispirited people.
September 10 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Zinn is terrible. I prefer Chomsky
September 10 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson If I said something patriotic I would have droves of ironic naysayers and critiques underneath the status chiding me for saying something so base and stupid.
September 10 at 10:19am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Gotta go talk about The Federalist THE WHOLE TIME.
Peace.
September 10 at 10:21am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Immigrant success story?
September 10 at 10:23am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In order to critique and reform well, it's important to wrestle with what is good and bad now - too easy to go to extremes either way, of course.
But the rah rah extreme is rare in education, and the poo poo extreme is usually done very poorly and just as if not more dishonestly.
September 10 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I see a lot of chest thumping. That or hatred for the wrong things. Very little real self examination.
September 10 at 10:29am · Like
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John Ruplinger chest thumping outside academia of course.
September 10 at 10:29am · Like
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Joel HF Chomsky is a nut, from the little I've read.
September 10 at 10:34am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here’s what bugs me: Yes America is better than many places in the world (and not just because we get to be the rich consumers and they get to be chained to a factory bench to provide us our goodies). Yet even so the answer simply cannot be to always demand fewer regulations and lower taxes as if that were the answer to everything. It seems that this ignores the plight of the poor, not just at home, but those abroad who are made miserable here and now for our comfort. Doesn’t social justice demand more from us?
Yet even if it were the case that capitalism makes everyone richer world-wide, and even if we assume the all but slave labor conditions in 3rd world countries would be *even worse* if it weren’t for the multi-national conglomerates (unproven assumptions as far as I can tell), I’d still have serious, grave reservations about the capitalist system, and I’m always surprised when I find people who claim to share my values who do NOT seem to have these reservations.
Don’t we all recognize that our society has become deadened to the higher things? That material excess and pleasures are, far too often, the only goods recognized? This is the result of capitalism as it has been practiced. I don’t have any neat solutions, of course, but surely there ought to be an acknowledgment that endless consumption cannot be the only principle of our economic policies?
September 10 at 10:43am · Edited · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger "deadened to the higher things". If the aim of the society not be higher, then there is no principle to check that of "more commodious living" as the guide to economic policy.
September 10 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But it is a facile delusion to think we can correct the inequities. Our legislators do not write or read the laws and haven't for a while. Have you read that stuff?
September 10 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Profit over People is golden
September 10 at 11:07am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys are just mad because you're poor
September 10 at 11:09am · Like
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Joel HF As I've said before, Social justice is when I am safely within the top 1%. Until then, no justice, no peace!
September 10 at 11:14am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Where's Pater Edmund? He should be into this "deadened to higher things" stuff.
September 10 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger No. I don't care about being poor. Poverty is underrated.
September 10 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Poor? who said anything about being poor?
September 10 at 11:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I agree with Joel HF.
September 10 at 11:22am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, you did, like 1000 times. 1000 or the 16000 comments on this thread are you complaining about being poor.
September 10 at 11:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe First it was TAC's fault, now it's capitalism's fault.
September 10 at 11:25am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's possible I'm reading between the lines here a little
September 10 at 11:25am · Like
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Joel HF He's just jealous of your boots, Samantha. Ignore him.
September 10 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe HAHA I love consumerism.
September 10 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hang on, so if there is systemic oppression for the sake of cheap goods here (which means I can afford a television, cheap clothing etc) I'm complaining about it because I'm poor? There seems to be some sort of disconnect here.....
September 10 at 11:29am · Like
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Michael Beitia and at least I buy American made boots......
September 10 at 11:30am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was not actually attempting to make a serious comment.
September 10 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Frye's are made in the USA! http://www.thefryecompany.com/made-in-usa
September 10 at 11:32am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia should be for $347
September 10 at 11:33am · Like
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Michael Beitia there can be no levity on TNET!
September 10 at 11:34am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Chomsky is the BEST. GENIUS. HONEST. Haven't read him in a long while and his politics are whacked. I thinj that happens to everyone disillusioned with but stuck in the libertarian / communism spectrum. And he toasted the conservative "voice of reason" in a debate once to the point of getting threatened. I don't get the Chomsky hate. I am not a Chomskyite but he isn't a typical flatulant talking head.
September 10 at 11:42am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Things are expensive when they aren't made by little slave kids.
September 10 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia whether or not one agrees with him, Chomsky is always worth the read
September 10 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe for the record, TNET has now officially sanctioned my purchase of expensive boots.
September 10 at 11:40am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe in case anyone missed that.
September 10 at 11:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia boots >> feeding the poor
September 10 at 11:41am · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe "Things are expensive when they aren't made by little slave kids." Sometimes things are still expensive. I quote the poet, Jemaine:
"They’re turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers
But what’s the real cost, ‘cause the sneakers don’t seem that much cheaper.
Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them
What are your overheads. "
September 10 at 11:50am · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmLHOGT0v4c
Flight of the Conchords- Issues (Think About It)
Flight of the Conchords performing their song "Issues." If...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 10 at 11:45am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I strongly urge everyone to take a moment to watch this highly relevant clip.
September 10 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Hey I posted that back in the Jurassic period of TNET
September 10 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Joel HF On TNET there is no before and after, no first and no last.
September 10 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Now, in the Baroque period....
September 10 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Kerouac? Anyone?
September 10 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe "We're talkin bout the issues, but we're keepin it funky" unofficial motto of TNET
September 10 at 11:51am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think John is right about poverty being underrated, but I think it's underrated in exactly the same way that all suffering is underrated.
September 10 at 12:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia suffering... so are we shifting from economics to Edith Stein?
September 10 at 12:09pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland [Oh my learned friends, does "Div. Hieron." mean the divine Jerome? St. Jerome? Something else? You have all been so helpful in the past.]
September 10 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like
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Katie Duda How is poverty underrated?
September 10 at 12:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll take a stab - underrated as a means to santification
September 10 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland According to Jesus, poverty is pretty important.
September 10 at 12:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland And generosity, if one has means, is necessary for salvation, or so says God.
September 10 at 12:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just like all suffering. "blessed are the poor," "blessed are those who mourn"
September 10 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger born in a stable, no crib for a bed. King of kings and second person of the Trinity. Example one (Yes, Catherine.)
September 10 at 12:15pm · Like
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Katie Duda That's somewhat of a platitude compared to how the rest of the conversation was going...
September 10 at 12:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Poverty and other suffering can just as easily lead to bad effects on the soul as good effects, but God has a special place for them in his plan
September 10 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe it isn't inherently a good thing, was my point
September 10 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it is a platitude. But how does it jive with the maximization of profit as is demanded by our current Real existing Capitalism?
September 10 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda My point was more of a societal one. Poverty can't be underrated because it's an evil. So how does one rate an evil? I mean are we lumping below physical death?
September 10 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Right, just like suffering. That's what I was saying.
September 10 at 12:20pm · Like
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Katie Duda We also imply a certain moral failure to poverty? Especially poverty that is not temporary
September 10 at 12:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What did St. Francis call poverty?
September 10 at 12:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "We"? just because poor people are lazy and stupid
September 10 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Or we might imply that the moral failure lies with society.
September 10 at 12:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Either way, poverty is an evil we always blame on something.
September 10 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia doesn't John Stossel have a bit every November on why not to give spare change to bums?
September 10 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I feel like we equivocate when we say St. Francis and "poverty" and raise the minimum wage/ welfare and "poverty"
September 10 at 12:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Franciscans definitely live a different sort of "poverty" than a single mom with four kids
September 10 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia isn't poverty kind of a relative term?
September 10 at 12:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger There are distinctions. Correcting unjust acquisition is one thing. Eliminating poverty (and how do you define it) is another.
September 10 at 12:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there is also a lot of equivocation between poverty and inequality.
September 10 at 12:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like a close to home (for some) example: What is the difference between an adjunct and a tenured professor?
September 10 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda A part time job at starbucks
September 10 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hahahahaha
September 10 at 12:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Please. Adjuncts need at least two part time jobs.
September 10 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger YEAH. That would be an injustice right under the hypocritical noses of policy wonks. . . . not to mention aging liberation theologians and their social teaching brethren.
September 10 at 12:36pm · Edited · Like
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Katie Duda Here's the thing, I can talk about poverty or inequality in my own line of vision and from what I can tell, that problem (with academia) is structural/institutional. I am not poor though insofar as a) I am single and have attendant mobility in that regard b) I have some marketable skills and one highly developed skill that I might peddle outside the tower.
That being said, if I say choose to keep teaching part time at colleges in Chicago and teach math on the side and work a slightly better than min wage job when things get tight, I am told that is my own choice. To which I totally agree. Does that change the structural problems with the academy? (no). Does my choosing to partake in that structure make it just in some way? Does it make me stupid to abide in the vicious circle? (Here's the moral judgment) Is it because "I undervalue/overvalue poverty"?
September 10 at 12:44pm · Like
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Katie Duda BTW, I ascribe no moral high ground to my choice in teaching Russian. Let's say it's my pride because I spent so long in doing it. Oh and I like it.
September 10 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Seriously excellent study of poverty and work in the university context:
http://www.amazon.com/How-University-Works.../dp/0814799752
I highly recommend this book. It's polemical, but in a good way.
How the University Works: Higher Education and the Low-Wage Nation...
AMAZON.COM
September 10 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Moral high ground aside, I wish our society valued teachers more
September 10 at 12:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The problem is there are too many people who love their field within academia, and administrators are blatantly exploiting their love. It's not actually correct to say, as I often here, that the academic job market it "oversupplied." Lots of teaching needs to be done at the academic level. The fact that tenure-track jobs are so hard to get is the result of administrators choosing to fill those teaching needs with adjunct slave labor, rather than full-time faculty.
September 10 at 12:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger My point was that those looking to cure societal "inequalities" need to look under there nose at home first. I am firmly against the camp of all are equal. I see where it has led.
September 10 at 1:04pm · Edited · Like
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Katie Duda Also, at the same time, that is not living in poverty in the way that living on the south side of Chicago is living in poverty, with no opportunities and no connections/ support network.
September 10 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Right, adjunct usually have the ability to find better paying work outside the academy, but they stay because they love their field. Also, sunk costs.
September 10 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I digress
September 10 at 12:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Adjuncts often make less than shoe string budget private school teachers. The university has no excuse. The early university guilds had the best model. A book and a teacher and maybe a rented roof. Still poor but at least students weren't debt slaves.
September 10 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I would imagine that they always make less than school teacher. But since adjuncts are paid per class (regardless of hours), it is hard to tell.
September 10 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I know what they are paid at one Jesuit institution. Pathetic.
September 10 at 1:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's pathetic across the board.
September 10 at 1:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia now compare that to other industries. Does the guy mopping the floor work any less hard than the guy bsing with corporate bigwigs on the golf course?
September 10 at 1:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The causes of our present economic ills are not solved by leveling wages. The rot is worse and deeper.
September 10 at 1:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia explain to me how a college president can make 1000 times an adjunct and that's just. Leveling wages may not be *the* solution, or even *a* solution, it doesn't mean that there isn't a deep injustice here.
September 10 at 1:33pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I agree. But correcting that unjust INequality is not what you had suggested above. The underlying causes . . . .
September 10 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . are little mentioned, little known and some, taboo. But nothing will be fixed until that system crashes.
September 10 at 1:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I haven't suggested any solutions as yet, but like a good TAC grad, only criticized what I see.
September 10 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley I have the answer! Magisterium. Bwahahahahahaha!!
September 10 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman These facts make capitalism a hard pill to swallow:
http://www.forbes.com/.../the-85-richest-people-in-the.../
The 85 Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The 3.5 Billion Poorest
And the top 1% control half the world's wealth.
FORBES.COM|BY LAURA SHIN
September 10 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Somewhere justice as gone awry.
September 10 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley Daniel, Your objection presupposes a zero sum game and ignores the powerful force that capitalism and entrepreneurship have been in pulling people and countries out of poverty.
September 10 at 2:20pm · Like
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Katie Duda So... What are some ideas? Going back to the question of America... Is there some way to think about the problem of individualism as the virtues of capitalism distended to vices? I see this as attendant with a cynicism towards patriotism. Are there civic virtues to be fostered to create a greater responsibility towards your immediate poor? And how do we break out of the problem of all the bs around that? (Bill Gates will reward the newest condom ideas, but what about providing local support for parents in school options for their kids and time and energy to pursue those goods?)
September 10 at 2:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Andrew, pulling some people out of poverty put putting others into poverty.
September 10 at 2:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^evidence for this?
September 10 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Remember in the old examen how defrauding the worker of his wages used to fall under the 5th commandment?
September 10 at 2:42pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Mr. Whaley, are none of those saved states saddled with unrepayable debt? And which of those humanity loving 85 entrepeneurs hold the non zero sum notes with interest?
September 10 at 2:43pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm not for equalizing wages, but we do have to start to move towards paying workers (all workers) a living wage.
September 10 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I think austerity laws are the more likely forecast. We wouldn't want to make the banks go hungry.
September 10 at 2:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sadly true.
September 10 at 2:49pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley John, I'm not familiar with private entrepreneurs loaning money to nations. I seem to remember the Drop the Debt and Jubilee initiatives being targeted at nations holding notes.
Michael Beitia, Could you tell me the mechanism and give me an example of a nation that now has a lower standard of living than they had before their involvement with the free market? I don't mean a bigger gap with the West. I mean people who used to have bathrooms and clean water who now have to poop in a hole in the yard because Capitalism stole their money or standard of living.
September 10 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joel: here you go.
Andrew, see also Detroit MI
September 10 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I the D — Detroit will rise from the ashes. With no help from Capital, of course.
September 10 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Furthermore, factories in China where the workers live in dormitories..... may be a higher standard of living. Prison is a higher standard of living than some inner cities. Let's help them all and put them in prison (oh, that's what we already do)
September 10 at 3:01pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Katie Duda Isn't the situation with Argentina private citizens loaning money to nations?
September 10 at 3:03pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Katie Duda, I know nothing of Argentina.
Michael, So, wait. People making profit and obeying the market sunk Detroit? I seem to think it was giant labor unions making American car companies lose money while Toyota's American operation made more money selling the same number of better cars for less money, but not paying someone over $70 to put a bolt on. And, if living in overcrowded conditions and working long hours beats starving in a village, is that not an increase in standard of living? I don't want to do it, but I'll take it over starving, which seems to be what they were doing or they wouldn't move in to the city. Now, there may be governmental pressure, but that's not the market.
September 10 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Mr. Whaley, I have a different take on the IMF. Money is power, always has been. And though Carnegie imported culture for the masses. He is part responsible for the conditions that made its importation necessary. Entrepreneurial philanthropist vs. robber baron view of these matters. Kind of like Gates: which helps to save more lives in Africa, condoms and vaccines or wells and clean water? And which is cheaper?
September 10 at 3:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "the market" is kind of a myth. And if you think it is perfectly okay to close down American factories to build sweat shops in foreign countries - affecting the poor here and there - then I'm not sure we have the same copy of CST
September 10 at 3:23pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Even aside from how well capitalism works to ease the immiseration of poverty (a great good, if only it could be proven), I'm reminded of the time someone remarked to Mr. Paietta (apropos of what I’ve haven’t the foggiest) that dogs have an exceptionally keen sense of smell, and he replied without batting an eye “For all the good it does them.”
Likewise, even ignoring the systematic injustices Katie and Michael have raised, it still seems to me that a wealthy capitalist society is like the dog that smells so keenly—yes the society has a good deal of wealth, but can anyone really praise the use that is made of it?
September 10 at 3:25pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're such a radical, Beitia.
September 10 at 3:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Beitia 2016: Put all the poor people in prison sweat shops
September 10 at 3:26pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Are you guys seriously arguing that free markets haven't raised millions of people out of poverty?
September 10 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley I don't think it is "ok", but we can't keep a factory going and losing money and then the people selling that product they used to make need someone to produce it.
September 10 at 3:28pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Unions did that.
September 10 at 3:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Beitia 2016: three squares and cheap American made underwear. YES WE CAN!
September 10 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sí se puede!
See Translation
September 10 at 3:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Last I checked, Whaley, the garment companies are doing pretty well
September 10 at 3:30pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I'm tagging in the illustrious David Quackenbush to channel George Gilder and set this straight, as I have to go do manual labor for tips and slightly above minimum wage, elitist that I am.
September 10 at 3:30pm · Like
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Joel HF And people thought this thread was dead!
September 10 at 3:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Hanes's stock has gone from 20 to 108 per share in the last five years, but they can't raise the wages in Haiti.......
September 10 at 3:32pm · Like
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Katie Duda I'm not arguing against capitalism. But it's not a force for good on its own. And I go back to my original critique of how is poverty a vice or a sign of vice ignores some serious problems
September 10 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley I'm not saying that all big companies are innocent, but that's a long way from capitalism forcing countries into poverty.
September 10 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda I am curious how people understand the argentine debt default though.
September 10 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not countries, people
countries are mythological
September 10 at 3:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So I'm going to interrupt with this BREAKING NEWS: Apparently the Diocese of Phoenix, where I work, is going to have "the best educational technology professional development breakout sessions for Educator Day." Needless to say, I am quite excited - nay, delighted by this.
There is a suggested list of topics, but they are open to additional ones. Here are my suggestions:
"Stealing Fire From Heaven: A Hermeneutic Tract on the World Wide Web and the Fate of Prometheus"
September 10 at 3:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "This Dragon Has A Face In All Your Homes: A Commentary on the Modern Libido for the Moving Image"
September 10 at 3:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "The Crucifix and the Chromebook: The Power of Distraction for Contemporary Heretics"
September 10 at 3:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "How to Keep Your Students in the Cave: Basics of Projector Use in the Classroom"
September 10 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "Let Us Make Man In Our Image: The Jackdaw God and Very Shiny Toys"
September 10 at 3:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Where Have All The Chalkboards Gone? Luddite Nostalgia in Today's Teachers"
September 10 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "The Mimic Has No Voice of His Own: The Philosophy of Photocopiers"
September 10 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I drink your milkshake.
September 10 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda "Kindle-ing the fire in their hearts" (Something like that)
September 10 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I welcome your suggestions.
September 10 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Invention and innovation create new markets and advance western civilizAtion in the 3rd world.
September 10 at 3:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If technology advancement. Stopped then the communist arguments for distribution hold water, since it is just a process of trading existing goods. But if new kinds of goods are created that leapfrog current barriers reducing development costs material/labor greater time can be spent in academia and learning. The real product needing development is clean water and electricity. Both can be solved through nuclear proliferation.
September 10 at 3:43pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The only true production is by the land and it is not a zero sum game. Moreover, new goods do not require new technology. We need to step back and perfect the old before we are all buried in broken wares from China.
September 10 at 3:50pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Speaking as a canon law student who brings a Kindle to Church, there's no need to be a luddite - pretty sure prayer reflects what comes out more than what goes in.
September 10 at 3:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But additive manufacturing is awesome and carbon fiber makes everything better.
September 10 at 3:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "the only true production is by the land." Sorry, what does this mean?
September 10 at 3:53pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Natural growth I think.
September 10 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, that doesn't seem very relevant then
September 10 at 3:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sheesh, someone made a list of the topics I have views on that create the greatest screaming against me, and I wasn't here.
Mr. Neilll, giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social problems. The Amish may have taken it way too far, but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and community....sometimes intermediate technology is how you raise people, all of them, out of poverty, rather than creating a modern city destined to return to squalor, as the countryside gets poor, by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer people.
September 10 at 3:54pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz In anycase, I take Redeeming Economics by Mueller to be the definitive must read here. From the actual economics side.
September 10 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Not if it is just referencing food, but wood and other materials are grown and are renewable.
September 10 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I have no idea what you just tried to say. What is referencing food? And what does this have to do with growing things that are renewable? Antecedents and pronouns people! Come on.
September 10 at 3:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The Middle East is a great study on that, rapid growth from Bedouin to civilization without the admixture of effort
September 10 at 3:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Cell phones are horrible typing devices forgive me.
September 10 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I'm all thumbs and autocorrect
September 10 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I responded to Jeff above. And it caused confusion.
September 10 at 4:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Which nations does mueller take into study in his book?
September 10 at 4:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The middle east is a terrible example. And has very little to do with the problem I mentioned. Sure, shitloads of cash for oil have a way of transforming a society. Not repeatable in most instances. I was refering the problem of introducing modern production into societies with pre-modern production still going on. The effect is usually devastating poverty for many. Intermediate steps, not leaps, are cheaper, can be done more widely, and avoid or mitigate the problems of increasing production too rapidly.
We only need to see the moral depravity of our own nation and the destruction of the family to see how technology is not always good in the concrete.
September 10 at 4:01pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Mueller? Oh, he is not writing on developing nations but economic theory in general. Most studies he uses are of the US.
September 10 at 4:02pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Neill, Marxist theory is actually looking forward to your fictional leap frogging technology. In reality, technology that outspaces labor creates disparity, not boatloads of leisure. If it worked as you think, Marx is right...you aren't a Marxist are you?
September 10 at 4:05pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Mueller is excellent in every way
September 10 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I like the Middle East since it is a real example and modern issue; the closet American analogous society is Indian gaming.
Indian gaming brought rapid growth and income to a society that was doomed to fail. However, if you provide a large amount of income to a society and do not require effort the society consumes more but does not necessarily advance.
September 10 at 4:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What would you do if you were provided $20k/mo with no work requirement?
September 10 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Is this redistribution? Is it working ?
September 10 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Haha... I make no claims as to what I am. I believe in technology development, Risk management, identifying future problems and offering solutions (for a fee).
September 10 at 4:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The problem in the Middle East is free money to citizens as long as there is oil and gas. The "smart" leaders realize. They only have 20 years left. So they need to work right now to develop both alternatives to oil as power as well as develop a new export or service. The fields they initially identified are education, manufacturing and medicine.
September 10 at 4:17pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill They desire to create a world class education system to develop an academic "Mecca" (pun intended) university system. The first thing they want to teach is English.
September 10 at 4:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The challenge is nobody in the nation wants to go to school, since they already have more money than they can spend, without having to work for it.
September 10 at 4:21pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay, best I can tell, I have no idea what conversation you are having...so have fun with it. I am honestly not following the trail of thought here.
September 10 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz George Gilder?! Mr. Whaley you jest....do we really need more clap-trap on this thread?
September 10 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Thanks for the Mueller tip. That goes for Jehoshaphat as well.
September 10 at 4:41pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I do not know of the "clap-trap" you refer to, as I've only dipped in and out of this thread. That being said, I think Gilder understands the nature of supply as a driver, the non-zero sum game that is our reality, and the risk/gift that underlies the entrepreneurial initiative.
September 10 at 4:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I hear George Gilder and the Discovery Institute comes up...man doesn't understand nature.
That and his fantasy about moral capitalists...the man's version of reality is a nice fiction land. Maybe even capitalism as it ought to be, but not as it is.
September 10 at 4:47pm · Like · 3
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Andrew Whaley Well, I wrote my thesis on business/entrepreneurship as a mode to embody love to human persons, consider myself both moral and an entrepreneur along the lines of his description, and would love some examples of how he misunderstands nature.
September 10 at 4:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia This is once again evidence that TAC grads don't study enough history. The closest American analogue to "free economy" was the industrial monopolists. Only through government intervention, violence, concessions by capital to labor, and more violence, did ANYTHING close to modern American economy come to be. It wasn't through the capitalists, but contra the capitalists
September 10 at 4:51pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia quick quiz A: Capital or B: Labor
1: 40 hour work week
2: elimination of child labor
3: workman's comp
4: pensions
5: safer working conditions
September 10 at 4:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (answer is B)
September 10 at 4:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wow, you wrote a TAC thesis? And so??
You may be moral. But his view of the moral capitalist in naïve. There are moral capitalists, sure. That wasn't the point.
And you are a support of Intelligent Design too? Why do you reject St. Thomas, teleology, and the Aristotelian idea of nature?
September 10 at 4:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes that was snarky. But come on, I wrote my thesis on predestination and God's universal salvific will, therefore I must have definitively answered that debate!
BA theses are fun to read in the future...they are rather naïve attempts usually, but good ones...clumsy gropings.
September 10 at 4:56pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I don't deny what you say, Mr. Whaley. It is common in small to mid size business. But big business is mostly about busting balls. The nice guys are window dressing.
September 10 at 4:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Common? You need a quick tour of my work (medium business)
September 10 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz See the whole problem is the the system is not a mode to embody love. Man has went crazy. Good and bad people can equally be capitalists. And are. The system itself, insofar as one naïvely considers Gilder's description to be reality, and not a construct meant to simplify things for the sake of an argument, is amoral. Gilder tries to make it moral per se and that is so absurd I don't think even he believes it.
And I don't accept his construct, which is different than Novak's construct, and different than any other number of constructs vaguely called capitalism.
September 10 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's why it is impossible to get them to speak of "Real Existing Capitalism" or REC as I refer to it
September 10 at 5:00pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Joshua Kenz, I think I may have misread your question/statement of :
Mr. Neilll, giving state of the art tech to many developing countries creates massive social problems. The Amish may have taken it way too far, but their principle in whether to accept a new techology is based on their valuing labor and community....sometimes intermediate technology is how you raise people, all of them, out of poverty, rather than creating a modern city destined to return to squalor, as the countryside gets poor, by introducing leaps that mean greater production than can be absorbed by fewer people." Are you suggesting that third world countries should not develop? I was (poorly) attempting to relate the economies of developing nations in the middle east to the US economy based upon their current export (oil).
September 10 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger more common . . . more common in the past . . . . than big business
September 10 at 5:03pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia ha! not my experience at all
September 10 at 5:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger cause you're in Chicago
September 10 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, I grew up in Mormon crony land too
September 10 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Neill, no, I was suggesting to should be aided in developing in a healthy, organic way, not by leaps, but by intermediate steps.
September 10 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda В единстве-- победа!
September 10 at 5:11pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley My thesis sucks, qua thesis, but I am actually more impressed by it every time I read it, as a set of original ideas, many of which I have acted upon.
That was snarky by the way.
September 10 at 5:11pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I think you all look at business through the lens of giant corps. I look at it through the lens of a mom and pop store. That's where I was raised and what I do now.
September 10 at 5:12pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I view a large business, ideally, as the out-growth of one that started small, but had to grow to achieve it's ends. If a bunch of evil people betray the nature of the entrepreneurial life, it doesn't change what it is any more than bad priests redefine the Church.
September 10 at 5:14pm · Like
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Katie Duda Unfortunately, most people are not employed at mom and pop stores.
September 10 at 5:14pm · Like · 3
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Andrew Whaley No, but they have, at least in the West to start one. Actually, roughly 100% of the new jobs created in the last few years have been in small business, when you factor all the big biz jobs lost and small ones added.
September 10 at 5:15pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Entrepreneurship" is sort of a weasel word. Define it please
September 10 at 5:16pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It is a) too often undefined, and b) too often regarded as a sort of "meta-occupation" since it is supposedly the great "job creator"
September 10 at 5:17pm · Like · 7
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Katie Duda I understand it is the age of the company, not its size that creates new jobs. Bringing new jobs in and out as they succeed or fail. (Not an econ person, but that seems pretty obvious around the city... as small as that niche is)
September 10 at 5:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Who is this Jehoshaphat and what have you done with Jason?
September 10 at 5:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger JA makes the point. It is a magic quality we hold in reverence, not to denigrate Whaley's ambitions at all. But oftener it is the quality that separates a Tesla from an Edison.
September 10 at 5:26pm · Like
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Clare Coffey Eat the entrepreneurs.
September 10 at 5:27pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'll be content for now with just defining them
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
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Clare Coffey ^reformist
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda Whaley, I am not sure it quite matters whether you see large business as a perversion... It seems that that perversion keeps coming around to capitalism, that on its own has nothing to prevent it.
Also, "small business" seems slippery. I have a friend who works for a small startup as an offshoot of the sun times. there is nothing mom and pop about it, but it is still "small business."
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante also everyone Clare Coffey is not a TAC alumna don't be fooled
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
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Clare Coffey or am I
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Defining them out of existence?
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Duh-duh-DUNNNN.
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think we'd need to know what exactly we're talking about first
September 10 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
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Anne Marie Samantha Cohoe or anyone, I am dying to know what P's position was on the topics you listed, but I just cannot dig that way back. Care to divulge a few more details? If not, then carry on, people .
September 10 at 5:29pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante look even "small business" is a "large business" once it's hiring people outside the families of the original "entrepreneurs". And we need to define "entrepreneur"
September 10 at 5:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Who is P? Peregrine? Peterson?
September 10 at 5:31pm · Like
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Anne Marie Sorry, Peregrine. But now that you mention it, Peterson.s would be interesting as well, though I bet I could guess what he'd say
September 10 at 5:32pm · Like
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Katie Duda Entrepreneur- one who starts his own business.
Let's critique!
September 10 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "starts" can be said in many ways
September 10 at 5:33pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of other's labor in that context. In the more modern context, it seems inevitably to involve innovation, largely in the combination of concepts taken from pre-existing models, contexts, and products. How's that.
September 10 at 5:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew won't speak his mind about Gilder for fear of causing a schism in the De Koninck Project
September 10 at 5:33pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Define "value"
September 10 at 5:34pm · Like
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Anne Marie I don't know how you people keep up with this and still function on a daily basis. !!
September 10 at 5:34pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante So, entrepreneuship is a) the State, and b) inventors?
September 10 at 5:34pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley something worth something.
September 10 at 5:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz If entrepreneur means the one that starts a business, then it again is an amoral term and activity. Good and bad people do that...
Mr. Whaley's definition seems a far more obscure way of saying that same thing. But also asserting, not fully accurately, that it inevitably involves innovation.
September 10 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia added "something worth something" to create a surplus of "something worth something"
doesn't mean something
September 10 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I would say: anyone who has made great success in business regardless of means (ie made lots of green)
September 10 at 5:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia since corporations are people under American law, then are corporations entrepreneurs?
September 10 at 5:36pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Inventors would be an example, if they develop the idea and sell it or license it. The state is not what I have in mind, but could use those same principles.
September 10 at 5:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Heck , " Entrepreneurship is the art that has as its end the creation of context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for added value to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of other's labor in that context."
"Pimping is the arts that has as its end the creation of a context or set of relationships that uses the trade of money for the added value of sex to create a surplus of value, usually involving the direction of others' sex labor in the context"
September 10 at 5:37pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Entrepreneur: someone who skims off the labor of others for his meal
September 10 at 5:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Joshua: pimpin' aint easy
September 10 at 5:38pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Michael Beitia, is wood worth something? Is a birdhouse worth more? Is a cool design of a birdhouse that does something one has never done worth even more.
September 10 at 5:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Tesla vs Edison. The difference is?
September 10 at 5:39pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Michael Beitia, You sound like a slave.
September 10 at 5:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia a birdhouse is worth EVEN MORE if I can get someone else to make it, and sell it, and harvest the materials for it, and still get paid
September 10 at 5:39pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Its still not clear to me what an entrepreneur is on Andrew's first definition. It comprehends everything from architectonic legislation to money laundering
September 10 at 5:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and pimping
September 10 at 5:39pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell "I don't know what you heard about me / but I'm a motherf(*^&^&*ing P.I.M.P." —50 Cent
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Andrew, don't make me post old BR videos
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And why do the "others" whose labor the entrepreneur is "directing" need him at all for their market?
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^they have the principle within themselves
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Not all entrepreneurship is moral. A pimp may be one, but an evil one.
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I heard that one before
September 10 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz If you say pimping is not entrepreneurship, then you must have another aspect of definition. And if it isn't arbitrary, then it should be evident
Betamax was far superior to VHS, quality and innovation wise...but VHS took off...it was simply cheaper and good enough. So betamax was, in some sense, a greater value, technologically, but the market value wasn't there....just as a cool design for a birdhouse only has economic value if the market grants it, not because it is innovative
September 10 at 5:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante let's bracket the morality question, I'm interested the utility question. Do we need the "entrepreneur"?
September 10 at 5:41pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Jehoshaphat Escalante, Why does Michael Beitia not own a parts store?
September 10 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia NO
September 10 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I lack the architectonic principle of robber baron
September 10 at 5:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante what is this "creation of a set of relationships"? Is he like a translator between people who dont speak the same language enough to be able to trade?
September 10 at 5:42pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz So entrepreneurs, capitalists, laborers, consumers, etc may all be immoral. And the system they are involved in is at best amoral...so we have already rejected Gilder....good.
So Escalante's question is not the next one
September 10 at 5:42pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger entrepreneur: what you want to be known as. money laundering: what you do. I still say it is nothing but being successful at making money which excludes many hardworking honest business men
September 10 at 5:43pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and people don't be ganging up on Andrew- give him the chance to speak and be taken seriously for goodness sake
September 10 at 5:43pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley Gilder doesn't claim that there can be no evil done in that context.
September 10 at 5:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia take back the slave comment and I might
September 10 at 5:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But then it doesn't embody love....as you clamed
September 10 at 5:44pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante fair enough!
September 10 at 5:44pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley How about Player Hater Michael Beitia? lol. Seriously, you do sound like someone who thinks the bigger organization of all this is super easy and that the only real work is with calloused hands. If I'm not mistaken, you're currently chatting on FB while some guy pays you right?
September 10 at 5:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope I'm at home
September 10 at 5:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you gotta put "pays" in air quotes though
September 10 at 5:47pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley So, quit! Start a shop! Start a distribution company. Do something. Risk! Come up with ideas and make the picture in your head out of wood, steel, one and zero, pixels, whatever. You are not stuck and if you are it is not Capitalism's fault.
September 10 at 5:48pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I have to run a business, ironically and wasting my time taking on a room full of scholars.
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^Bootstraps myth
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hey! not me, that's the rest of these folks
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like
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Katie Duda State was thrown around. How is the State an entrepreneur? Insofar as it has an ability in some cases to turn the worker into a consumer?
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wonder who is going to feed my five kids while I'm risking?
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Yes, mustn't insult capitalism....never mind that an "entrepreneur" cannot always bootstrap a business or gain external financing.
According to the Catholic Church I should be able to work for wages sufficient, if I live frugally, to acquire productive property of my own
September 10 at 5:49pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "live frugally" is contextual as well. The school district I'm in requires high speed internet and wifi at home.
September 10 at 5:51pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Well, people with kids move up and start shit all the time. But, and here's the rub, be ready to work 100 hours a week for a while and it might burn down. I did. I will again.
September 10 at 5:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict poop
September 10 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell No one wants to demonize entrepreneurs. The problem is that we are living with a Reagan zombie myth that claims that we ought to take from the poor and the elderly and give tax credits / exempt from tax businesses and entrepreneurs because then things will "trickle down." Manifestly bullshit.
September 10 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I shouldn't have to work 100 hours a week. I have a family and would like to see my children before I'm dead or they're gone. See how well it works in families where the father is gone all the time?
September 10 at 5:54pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Daniel, I am. I've worked for some really shitty ones
September 10 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante The entrepreneur is a different and better thing than the capitalist in principle, *but* entrepreneurship as it presently exists exists within a context of capitalism, and looking only at the entrepreneur, or even worse, the IDEAL entrepreneur, means you aren't really looking at the entrepreneur in his context
September 10 at 5:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But how do you define entrepeneur?
September 10 at 5:58pm · Like
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Katie Duda Aha! So the 100 hour a week thing (which is amazing for those who can and do do it), is that inherently noble? Or is it noble for some and not for others- meaning it would be a sign of virtue in one (wo)man and a sign of vice in another?
September 10 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz That is not the case for many of us, despite efforts. And Mr. Whaley, you are not using the word ironically correctly.
I blocked a friend for a while that blamed me for my economic problems. Not because I don't bear some responsibility, but because he stupidly blamed me for not emigrating...as if being penniless I could just get up and leave the place of my birth, and my family, and automatically succeed through "effort" transplanted somewhere else without social relations
And Mr. Whaley, it is a n injustice if you have to work 100 hrs a week. It is an injustice if both parents have to work. I will take the Catholic Church's side on that.
I have been working overtime, overnights, etc. My company doesn't pay me everything it owes, disputes never resolve (just sent an email because they underpaid me, neglecting overtime, again) and takes up enough time to hamper other efforts...and the money is just about gone, to bills, when I do get paid. So should I quit and have nothing to pay the bills but finally have the energy to "risk" starting a business?
My lord, the condescension of such a myopic worldview. "Just work harder" It is nice for you if you had the opportunity to start a business. When I cannot even afford, when I do have the time, to go to daily Mass because I cannot put gas in my tank, maybe, just maybe what little I have isn't worth risking unless I have a solid business plan...and maybe where I am hasn't offered me such an opportunity, and maybe I cannot afford to leave...but I cannot blame anyone but myself. Is that the view? I should be able to work a reasonable job for a reasonable pay. That would be just. Not everyone is meant to be an entrepreneur, especially an employer.
September 10 at 5:59pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia It would be neglecting my state in life, Katie
September 10 at 5:59pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger 100 work week was not a sign of virtue in my case. Acedia comes to mind.
September 10 at 6:02pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Pieper, in the Leisure book of his, makes that point, that workaholism and acedia are closely linked.
September 10 at 6:04pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Now if you excuse me, I have about 2 hrs to make dinner, clean, get some coffee and then I have to leave for another 12 hr overnight shift, where apparently I do not work hard enough in otherwise I would "move up"
September 10 at 6:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no no no. you're just not SMART enough
September 10 at 6:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or dedicated
September 10 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz My boss's boss thinks I am smarter than he. And his boss thinks I am the smartest person working for him.... so it must be that dedication part
September 10 at 6:08pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda Is not having a boss important to entrepreneurship?
September 10 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *monocle monocle monocle*
September 10 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Yes Katie, it is. entrepreneur is the Indie business owner
September 10 at 6:27pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda So it seems like, yes, there need to be bosses? Or is there some egalitarian other mode?
September 10 at 6:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, boss doesn't = entrepreneur
September 10 at 6:29pm · Like
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Katie Duda And there also need to be people who are bossed?
September 10 at 6:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm technically a boss at my work..... technically
September 10 at 6:29pm · Like
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Katie Duda (I would assume Erin is the boss at home)
September 10 at 6:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no, it's an autonomous collective
September 10 at 6:30pm · Like · 3
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Katie Duda ah yes. Like an academic department
September 10 at 6:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no like a commune
September 10 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there, I said it
September 10 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma You're fooling yourself woman.
September 10 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma We're living in dicatorship, a self perpetuating autocracy, in which the workers...
September 10 at 6:33pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda Me? No. I am distracting myself
September 10 at 6:33pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Oh there you go, bringing in class again.
September 10 at 6:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (MOnty Python)
September 10 at 6:33pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda http://2.bp.blogspot.com/.../are-you-not-entertained.gif
2.BP.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 10 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Nice.
September 10 at 6:34pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Good pickup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0
Dennis The Constitutional Peasant
Monty Python and the Holy Grail is a 1975 film about King Arthur and his knights who embark on a low-budget...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 10 at 6:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia good pickup!? that was the point of my "autonomous collective"..... sheesh
September 10 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma That's what I mean. I caught your reference there.
September 10 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia anyway, Katie, yes some people need to be told what to do at work, and some people need to be telling them what to do. Most work is hierarchical
September 10 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
September 10 at 6:36pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia stop it Booty
September 10 at 6:36pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Shut up, I order you to shut up.
September 10 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda So not having a boss essential? Does that tap into a desire to be autonomous?
September 10 at 6:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Probably. It might be an Americanist thingy, like co-operatives seem to be more Western European. But yes, no boss
September 10 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Do any of you have opinions on the nature of offset agreements? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_agreement
Offset agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Defense offset agreements are legal trade practices in...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 10 at 6:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia seems like the worst of cronyism
September 10 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger the world must be weaponized.
September 10 at 7:30pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, TNET, what were the most distinctive features of Roman law? ...asking for a friend...
September 10 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It is forced bartering not cronyism. For example you want to sell product in India? It may be better/cheaper to open a factory their since the tariff posed on American products prices the goods outside of competition.
September 10 at 7:11pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well their most ancient piece of true legislation is The Twelve Tables. Basically after Tarquin the Proud was expelled from Rome there was class warfare between the patricians and the plebeians, and the plebs left and refused to come back until basic rights were established for all citizens, rich or poor. The Twelve Tables are pretty nifty.
September 10 at 7:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you haven't lived until you've lived Livy
September 10 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am still trying to figure out that off set agreement. Is it forcing the purchase of weapons? Or just regulating?
September 10 at 7:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz, what do you do, if you don't mind me asking?
September 10 at 7:19pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I annoy USC students mostly....working with the housing admin at USC.
September 10 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger No. Jeff. I think it's dangling lots of irresistable fruit, meeting US geopolitical strategic "defense" targets, cronyism domestic and foreign, and some forced bartering to boot. And that's just the above table deals. [Actually it makes me kinda sick. And I can't figure how it "works" financially for our arms dealers.]
September 10 at 8:16pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I have read the Twelve Tables. What does "dedicated to the infernal gods" mean? Sounds scary.
September 10 at 7:44pm · Like
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John Kunz Matthew J. Peterson - kenz may be able she's some light on your USC run in this morning.
September 10 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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John Kunz https://m.facebook.com/story.php...
Matthew J. Peterson
Dear Young White Male in the shiny black A6 with the USC decal who weaves and passes and cuts in front of us from the right lane only to slam on his brakes: we all hate you.
-Los Angeles
PS No offense meant to our many friends who drive Audis or who went to USC.
September 10 at 8:29pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz leaving just now....most of the fancier cars coming in at USC are driven as if by dicks....who needs to speed around the bends of a parking garage?
September 10 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia John Kunz DONT CROSS THE STREAMS
September 10 at 9:52pm · Like · 6
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Jeff Neill My purpose of posting on offsets is this is a real world business problem and the real world "customer" need. Philosophical solutions or ideal economies are polite and nice, but if you want a moral solution or moral problem to solve, then develop the technology they need while drinking their milkshake.
September 10 at 10:53pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDbeqj-1XOo
Pink Floyd - Us and Them
Us and Them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 10 at 10:55pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill I have to ask, for those who were arguing that bathing suits were immodest, and to the same ones whom argued that certain scientific body parts were offensive/immoral, I'm curious to ask...why? Is it that you are, hmm, how shall I say, turned on? I'm not trying to be offensive, only curious. Also, for those who believe that, what are your opinions on men's attire at the beach? Or is it entirely up to woman to keep men from "tempting thoughts"
September 10 at 11:14pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Burqinis for all!
September 10 at 11:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and burgers!
September 10 at 11:31pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill I should start a fashion line, Daniel P
September 10 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Seductive ankles...
September 10 at 11:38pm · Like
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Liz Neill Yep, that's what I'll call it.
September 10 at 11:39pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nothing seduces like modesty.
http://www.eastessence.com/islamic-clothing/modest-swimwear/
BURQINI & SWIMWEAR
EastEssence.com offers a wide array of affordable Full-cover swim suits. We offer two types of fabrics. The...
EASTESSENCE.COM
September 10 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Hahahahaha! Nice!
September 10 at 11:41pm · Like
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Liz Neill Haha east essence?
September 10 at 11:42pm · Like
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John Boyer You just turned me off.
September 10 at 11:42pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Bloody hell
September 10 at 11:42pm · Like
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John Boyer I see enough of that on campus. Also the full on no eye hole burquas.
September 10 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I'm still trying to figure out what garment was "named after the atom bomb test site" (wasn't it called trinity)
September 10 at 11:44pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell On campus? Where are you?
September 10 at 11:49pm · Like
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Liz Neill What campus, John?
September 10 at 11:54pm · Like
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Liz Neill Burqini, it's what every good catholic woman should wear.
September 10 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill John? How do they see? Or walk? I could make a whole lot of jokes, but.....
September 11 at 12:02am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell C'mon people! Entertain me! Panem et circenses!
See Translation
September 11 at 12:23am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell
September 11 at 12:23am · Like
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Liz Neill It's late
September 11 at 12:25am · Like
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Liz Neill http://www.independent.co.uk/.../mars-hill-church-closes.... Penis homes. There you go
Mars Hill church closes branches after founder Mark Driscoll calls women 'penis...
INDEPENDENT.CO.UK
September 11 at 12:26am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ha! I saw something about this in the paper today ... thought it was a joke, or a mis-quote.
September 11 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Oh no! The word "penis" was mentioned. No one get turned on.
September 11 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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John Kunz http://youtu.be/cRU9BT9M9Iw
Tonight Show Family Feud with Steve Harvey and Jason Segel
Steve Harvey hosts a special Tonight Show edition of...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Oh no, all reall!!!! lol
September 11 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Kunz! Funny as hell!
September 11 at 12:35am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81APjIsXJ28
Cocaine's Hell of a Drug
Chappelle's Show - Cocaine's Hell of a Drug.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Liz Neill P is a woman's home. Rolls my eyes so far back in my head! And then I laugh!!!
September 11 at 1:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia Regarding the Burqini, and other things like that, has anyone else ever found "purity" laws/morality to be an odd subject? Purity isn't like any other virtue. "It's hard to keep them on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus". A person can grow in virtues like temperance, courage, etc. but purity seems unidirectional. I'm not even sure it is a virtue.
Further, everyone knows bacon is forbidden under Jewish food purity laws, but cheeseburgers too? I don't know if I can get on the train...
September 11 at 8:19am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Truthfully, I'm starting to feel badly for Mark Driscoll.
September 11 at 8:20am · Like
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Joel HF I had to look him up. Ew.
September 11 at 8:25am · Like
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Michael Beitia Mark Driscoll is a jerk
September 11 at 8:35am · Like
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Michael Beitia and a misogynist
September 11 at 8:35am · Like
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Jeff Neill Jewish purity laws make sense in a pre-refrigeration technology day. Since the goal is "bacteria separation" of vegetables, meats, cheese/dairy all need to be separated. But with "modernization" that mostly went away for the majority of Jewish families. (But there are those that follow the letter of the law and not he spirit)
September 11 at 8:43am · Like
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Michael Beitia If a bacon cheeseburger is impure, I don't want to be pure.
September 11 at 8:47am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, but I feel bad for him. All this digging up stuff he said 15 years ago on the internet is getting vindictive.
September 11 at 8:54am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe OT purity doesn't map very well onto Aristotelian virtue. It all has to do with being set apart. And OT purity doesn't map very well onto modern ideas where purity tends to mean something like sexual innocence.
September 11 at 8:58am · Like
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Joel HF OT is law. Aristotle is virtue. Agreed w/ Samantha that a lot of the OT law was purely to set the Israelites apart.
September 11 at 9:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia a lot of Christian morality centers on purity. But it isn't even a virtue in the Christian sense.
September 11 at 9:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think it's a virtue at all. There's no mean of purity.
September 11 at 10:06am · Like
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Frank Morris MB, why wouldn't purity be a virtue in the Christian sense? Is purity needed to embrace the virtues?
September 11 at 10:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia you can't increase in purity, only decrease
September 11 at 10:09am · Like
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Frank Morris conceived in sin and born in corruption...i think people can increase in purity.
September 11 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia That's an equivocation. once a person reaches the age of reason, where virtues can increase, it is impossible to increase in purity, only decrease. Furthermore, it is evidenced by "physical purity". One is either a virgin, or not.
September 11 at 10:13am · Like
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Frank Morris Natura Pura: On the Recovery of Nature in the Doctrine of Grace...mucho equivocation in nature.
September 11 at 10:14am · Like
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Frank Morris The Lord Our God is One....so there--Matthew J. Peterson is The Thread beautiful again?
September 11 at 10:16am · Like
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Frank Morris though your sins be as scarlet....
September 11 at 10:18am · Like
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Joel HF Sed contra, ST IIa IIae Q 151 A 1 ad 2: "As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 18), "so long as her mind holds to its purpose, whereby she has merited to be holy even in body, not even the violence of another's lust can deprive her body of its holiness, which is safeguarded by her persevering continency." He also says (De Civ. Dei i, 18) that "in the mind there is a virtue which is the companion of fortitude, whereby it is resolved to suffer any evil whatsoever rather than consent to evil.""
September 11 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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Joel HF But I think purity is much equivocated on.
September 11 at 10:19am · Like · 3
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Frank Morris Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow. 18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land
September 11 at 10:20am · Like
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Frank Morris Joel--I shall send you a facebook friend request.
September 11 at 10:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, if one consents to evil, then purity is irrevocably damaged, no?
September 11 at 10:22am · Like
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Frank Morris but what if one doesn't consent to evil...can purity be restored?
September 11 at 10:23am · Like
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Joel HF Uh, I'd defer to the many many people who know more than I, but as far as I can see purity might be taken to refer to innocence which once lost is lost (though recoverable in a sense through baptism and confession); or it could refer to a habit of keeping oneself free from impurity and then no, the damage isn't irrevocable; or it could refer to keeping the OT law and I'm not sure but I think one could be come clean again (if that's the same thing) through certain actions.
September 11 at 10:25am · Like · 2
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Frank Morris joel seems to moi to know plenty.
September 11 at 10:27am · Like
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Anne Marie 'We must be pure. I do not speak merely of the purity of the senses. We must observe great purity in our will, in our intentions, in all our actions.'
--St. Peter Julian Eymard
God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can perform.
--St. John of the Cross
Those whose hearts are pure are the temples of the Holy Spirit.
St. Lucy
September 11 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris i think a certain purity is necessary to embrace and live the christian virtues. that is all....and through confession and reparation, purity and the virtues can increase.
September 11 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Anne Marie "Holy Purity is granted by God when it is asked for with humility."
--St. Josemaria Escriva
"Chastity is a difficult, long term matter; one must wait patiently for it to bear fruit, for the happiness of loving kindness which it must bring. But at the same time, chastity is the sure way to happiness."
--Pope John Paul II
September 11 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris Anne Marie, I've heard it said that all persons are Temples Of The Holy Spirit, and there in rests our greatest dignity--but a temple can be defiled...old idea i know-but ideas have a tendency to thrive in certain pockets in cyberspace.
September 11 at 10:31am · Like
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Frank Morris Anne Marie, I like Escriva as well...I will send you a facebook friend request.
September 11 at 10:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia are we talking habit of avoiding the impure, or of innocence?
wrt confession, the effect of sin is still on the soul even if sanctifying grace is restored
September 11 at 10:33am · Like · 3
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Frank Morris yes-the effects of sin are there---the affects of reparation can also be there.
September 11 at 10:34am · Like
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Anne Marie Michael Beitia, I was wondering the same thing
September 11 at 10:35am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia not the way it is taught, which is why I've always had a problem with purity based moralities
September 11 at 10:35am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh I missed your earlier comments Anne Marie. work computer doesn't update as fast as one woud like
September 11 at 10:36am · Like
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Frank Morris you lost me mb on the "way it is taught"
September 11 at 10:36am · Like
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Frank Morris thread lost to moi.
September 11 at 10:36am · Like
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Michael Beitia morality manuals. Especially for young women. the phrase "damaged goods comes to mind"
September 11 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Anne Marie You guys really need to read some JPII. You are losing out.
September 11 at 10:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think the common modern use of purity as "sexual innocence" is particularly Christian at all.
September 11 at 10:40am · Like · 4
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Frank Morris got it MB...i wasn't aware of your reference...thank you.
September 11 at 10:40am · Like
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Joel HF STA has interesting stuff here: "Et ideo virginitas est quaedam specialis virtus, habens se ad castitatem sicut magnificentia ad liberalitatem. " IIa IIae Q 152 A3. Cf. IIa IIae Q151 (on chastity).
September 11 at 10:41am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ryan Burke!!! How are you???
September 11 at 10:41am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can you type, or just use the "like" function?
September 11 at 10:41am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe chastity does not equal purity. Chastity has a much more specific meaning.
September 11 at 10:43am · Like
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Frank Morris Anne Marie-I've read a fair amount of JPII but more Ratzinger--are you familiar with Srodowisko? It was a little group of JPII friends that he went hiking with.
September 11 at 10:43am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Chastity has a more general meaning, at least if by purity we mean sexual purity, which seems like what we are talking about now.
September 11 at 10:45am · Like
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Frank Morris the term means milieu, but also how the self affects the milieu--and how the milieu affects the self.
September 11 at 10:45am · Like
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Joel HF Also, what do you mean Samantha when you say " I don't think the common modern use of purity as "sexual innocence" is particularly Christian at all"
September 11 at 10:46am · Edited · Like
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Ryan Burke Doing much better! I can type one-handed. Liking is just easier.
September 11 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ok, like away! Glad to hear it.
September 11 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Anne Marie Ratzinger is the bomb too. And I wanted to add that my comment was meant in a friendly way, not condescending. JPII 's writings are so incredibly rich. I just wish everyone read them because they really shed so much light on the topic of innocence, purity, chastity, marriage and family and so much more.
September 11 at 10:47am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think it's a Christian concept. It's not used in the Bible that way.
September 11 at 10:46am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Jesus definitely wasn't concerned with Old Testament purity. He talked with women in public, including prostitutes, he dined with notorious sinners, he didn't wash his hands, he broke the Sabbath for different reasons, and his followers would begin eating unclean foods.
September 11 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris yup, and he also told people to sin no more.
September 11 at 10:47am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think scholars dispute that, Catherine Ryland
September 11 at 10:47am · Like
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Anne Marie Samantha, what do you mean?
September 11 at 10:47am · Like
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Joel HF That Jesus did these things is a sign that purity is important (though not as important as love), not that sexual purity didn't matter
September 11 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Anne Marie On both accounts?
September 11 at 10:48am · Like
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Joel HF Also, consider STA's response to the objection that virginity cannot be a virtue since it is not restored by penance, IIa IIae Q 152 Art 3 ad 3:
Virtue can be recovered by penance as regards that which is formal in virtue, but not as to that which is material therein. For if a magnificent man has squandered all his wealth he does not recover his riches by repenting of his sin. In like manner a person who has lost virginity by sin, recovers by repenting, not the matter of virginity but the purpose of virginity.
As regards the matter of virginity there is that which can be miraculously restored by God, namely the integrity of the organ, which we hold to be accidental to virginity: while there is something else which cannot be restored even by miracle, to wit, that one who has experienced venereal lust should cease to have had that experience. For God cannot make that which is done not to have been done, as stated in the FP, Question [25] , Article [4].
September 11 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe OK, I think I see the confusion, gimme a minute
September 11 at 10:48am · Like
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Frank Morris even the Gods cannot change the past.
September 11 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I don't mean that he didn't care about morality, but that he didn't follow the expected purity/cleanness codes of his time.
September 11 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Obviously, what we would call chastity is important in the Old and especially New Testaments. But I think the use of "purity" to refer specifically to sexual innocence reflects a later pre-occupation.
September 11 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Thanks to Jesus we no longer stone women for adultery.
September 11 at 10:50am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland I agree, Samantha.
September 11 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And Catherine Ryland, a lot of scholars think Jesus did keep the expected purity/cleanness codes of his time
September 11 at 10:51am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or at least that he kept the codes, but not to the exacting interpretations of the Pharisees
September 11 at 10:51am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Perhaps, but he did many things which caused the Pharisees to look askance at his idea of morality. (e.g. the things I mentioned above).
September 11 at 10:52am · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Right!
September 11 at 10:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, but a strong case can be made that Jesus's differences with the Pharisees were about interpretation of the Law, not a rejection of it.
September 11 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life..."
September 11 at 10:53am · Like
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Joel HF Samantha--you don't think the Church Fathers cared about virginity?
September 11 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I think the law was pretty clear about stoning women for adultery, for example.
September 11 at 10:54am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, are you trying to make trouble?
September 11 at 10:54am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Trying to count how many possible tenure track positions TNET has probably already lost me. But then again, that all started with attending my beloved alma mater in the first place.
September 11 at 10:54am · Edited · Like · 10
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, I'm up for it.
September 11 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe by "later preoccupations" I may have been referring to the Church Fathers
September 11 at 10:56am · Like
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Joel HF Have you looked at St. Thomas's article on Virginity? I think he makes a nice distinction both w/r/t how it is a virtue in relation to chastity and the way in which it is (and isn't) lost through sin.
September 11 at 10:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia the strong preoccupation that most early cultures have with sexual purity have to do with women as property
September 11 at 10:59am · Like · 4
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Frank Morris mb, we can't change the past, but people are called to repair the world
September 11 at 10:59am · Like
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Frank Morris and spoils of war.
September 11 at 11:00am · Like
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Frank Morris and circumcision for men was a mock castration ritual...deep baby.
September 11 at 11:01am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe huh. don't know what that last thing means.
September 11 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris war and violence and vicious psychological control...Jesus tried to free people from all that.
September 11 at 11:05am · Like
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Frank Morris Samantha, was it ever discussed at your college that male circumcision was a castration ritual?
September 11 at 11:06am · Like
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Frank Morris or that polygamy and women as property was a consequence of vicious desert politics, scarcity, and constant genocidal war?
September 11 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Women have been treated shabbily to horribly throughout history and across cultures. I'm not sure the early church or even ancient Mesopotamia stand out in regards to mistreatment of women.
September 11 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe not that I'm aware of. maybe in the boy's dorm. they talked about all kinds of crazy stuff.
September 11 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Frank Morris not that crazy: AIM:
In the earliest records of human religion, castration was regarded as an act of devotion. Moreover, the ritual of circumcision is still followed by many modern religions. In this article, we have exposed the archeological, historical, cultural and religious evidence between the ancient ritual of castration and circumcision.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
We reviewed the reports about circumcision and castration in the English, French, and Turkish literature.
RESULT:
Both the rituals of circumcision and castration had similar aims in human religions.
CONCLUSION:
The ritual of castration evolved into circumcision as a less-invasive and bloody procedure than castration.
September 11 at 11:12am · Like
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Joel HF No comment.
September 11 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris secrets everywhere.
September 11 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe As I recall, a lot of people at TAC thought polygamy was in accordance with natural law.
September 11 at 11:12am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Yes, let's discuss!
September 11 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris well, if most of the young men are dead fighting the old chiefs wars...
September 11 at 11:13am · Like
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Isak Benedict That's because it totally is, Samantha.
September 11 at 11:13am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF And now who's starting trouble?
September 11 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris the castrated are frequently pure.
September 11 at 11:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh heavens....
September 11 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris the ownership stuff can be gender neutral.
September 11 at 11:16am · Like
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Frank Morris for all the women. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUT9KQ-LuaU&index=9...
The Kinks - Superman
Ray's my superman! Enjoy!
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 11:16am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Polygamy is NOT in accordance with natural law, but I can see how one might make such a mistake if the only good of marriage one acknowledges is the good of procreation
September 11 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe as certain Bishops of Hippo did
September 11 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEep67akIn4...
The Kinks - Apeman 1970
The Kinks - Apeman 1970 I think I'm sophisticated cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien But all around me...
YOUTUBE.COM|BY THE KINKS
September 11 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Is it therefore contrary to the natural law? And if so, why?
September 11 at 11:20am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe polygamy is bad for everyone. it goes against God's original design for marriage as manifested in Genesis. therefore etc.
September 11 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris but what if most of the young men are dead from war, and the adversarial tribes are trying to steal the women....And there was no talking snake.
September 11 at 11:28am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sure, I suppose it could be the least bad of several terrible options
September 11 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Frank Morris or maybe love God, love one another--the whole law depends on this...Love Jesus. Hail Yahweh.
September 11 at 11:42am · Like
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Frank Morris than the whole natural/moral law thing kind of flows...peace harmony structure....
September 11 at 11:43am · Like
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Frank Morris the women at the well....Love G in spirit and truth, these are the worshippers G wants.
September 11 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia is murder against the natural law Joel? how about abandoning male offspring?
September 11 at 12:03pm · Like
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Frank Morris moses (the law giver) abandoned to the river, to save him from political murder.
September 11 at 12:12pm · Like
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Frank Morris flowing like a river...
September 11 at 12:12pm · Like
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Joel HF I think polygamy is partially opposed to natural law, and wholly opposed to the new law. See Summa Theologiae Supplement Q 65 Art. 1.
September 11 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF It's a bit of a shame that we don't read a little bit of Thomas on marriage at TAC, since he puts Augustine's views in context.
September 11 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia An examination of Mormon polygamous practice shows murder and abandonment as systemic. IF those are against the natural law, THEN polygamy is against the natural law
September 11 at 12:16pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think polygamy is against the natural law, though secondarily. Just for the record.
September 11 at 12:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What does "secondarily" mean?
September 11 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe There are so many excellent arguments against polygamy that it's hard to pick just one.
September 11 at 12:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson God allowed or encouraged or commanded something agin the natural law?
September 11 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^Strong
September 11 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Read Summa Theologiae Supplement to Part III Q 65 "on plurality of wives".
September 11 at 12:25pm · Like
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Joel HF "But an action may be improportionate either to the principal or to the secondary end, and in either case this happens in two ways. First, on account of something which wholly hinders the end; for instance a very great excess or a very great deficiency in eating hinders both the health of the body, which is the principal end of food, and aptitude for conducting business, which is its secondary end. Secondly, on account of something that renders the attainment of the principal or secondary end difficult, or less satisfactory, for instance eating inordinately in respect of undue time. Accordingly if an action be improportionate to the end, through altogether hindering the principal end directly, it is forbidden by the first precepts of the natural law, which hold the same place in practical matters, as the general concepts of the mind in speculative matters. If, however, it be in any way improportionate to the secondary end, or again to the principal end, as rendering its attainment difficult or less satisfactory, it is forbidden, not indeed by the first precepts of the natural law, but by the second which are derived from the first even as conclusions in speculative matters receive our assent by virtue of self-known principles: and thus the act in question is said to be against the law of nature."
September 11 at 12:26pm · Like
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Joel HF "Now marriage has for its principal end the begetting and rearing of children, and this end is competent to man according to his generic nature, wherefore it is common to other animals (Ethic. viii, 12), and thus it is that the "offspring" is assigned as a marriage good. But for its secondary end, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. viii, 12), it has, among men alone, the community of works that are a necessity of life, as stated above (Question [41], Article [1]). And in reference to this they owe one another "fidelity" which is one of the goods of marriage. Furthermore it has another end, as regards marriage between believers, namely the signification of Christ and the Church: and thus the "sacrament" is said to be a marriage good. Wherefore the first end corresponds to the marriage of man inasmuch as he is an animal: the second, inasmuch as he is a man; the third, inasmuch as he is a believer. Accordingly plurality of wives neither wholly destroys nor in any way hinders the first end of marriage, since one man is sufficient to get children of several wives, and to rear the children born of them. But though it does not wholly destroy the second end, it hinders it considerably for there cannot easily be peace in a family where several wives are joined to one husband, since one husband cannot suffice to satisfy the requisitions of several wives, and again because the sharing of several in one occupation is a cause of strife: thus "potters quarrel with one another" [*Aristotle, Rhet. ii, 4], and in like manner the several wives of one husband. The third end, it removes altogether, because as Christ is one, so also is the Church one. It is therefore evident from what has been said that plurality of wives is in a way against the law of nature, and in a way not against it."
September 11 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson-- is see "allowed." Where do you get "commanded" or "encouraged?"
September 11 at 12:27pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris G is G, He can do what he wants.
September 11 at 12:27pm · Like
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Joel HF Uh, depending on what one means, I guess?
September 11 at 12:28pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill https://m.facebook.com/story.php...
September 11 at 12:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We don't allow Divine Command Theory on TNET.
September 11 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell quodammodo ... the great escape ...
September 11 at 12:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Frank Morris 1 is 1.
September 11 at 12:30pm · Like
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Frank Morris quōdammodo (not comparable)...thank you TNET
September 11 at 12:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, I should add that according to St. Thomas (at least in the Supplement to the ST III), polygamy was only allowable via divine dispensation and it could only be dispensed since it was not opposed to the primary end of marriage (nor *entirely* opposed to the secondary end of natural marriage)
September 11 at 12:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thomas is wrong. Polygamy totally hinders the first end of marriage, the begetting and raising of children.
September 11 at 12:33pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell As in the case of Abraham and Hagar?
September 11 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF How so? I mean, if having lots of kids is one's goal (and assuming sufficient means to support everyone)...
September 11 at 12:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the "rearing" part. Having lots of kids is not the goal, having them and raising them well is
September 11 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What about what Jesus says about it?
September 11 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe All you have to do is look at the polygamous families in the OT to see how the "raising" part works out.
September 11 at 12:36pm · Like
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Frank Morris couldn't have the big turf fight, part of Gs plan, without Hagar DPO...but this all a dead end street for those on the tenure track.
September 11 at 12:36pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson [makes sure troll costume is fully zipped]
September 11 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris trolling part of the thread.
September 11 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Troll Version of Matthew J. Peterson-- what did Jesus say about it?\
September 11 at 12:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia how did polygamy work out for David? Solomon?
September 11 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris helped to solidify allegiances.
September 11 at 12:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'd say when one of your sons rapes one of your daughters, setting off a blood feud that ends in one of your other sons raping some of your wives, the primary ends of marriage have been pretty thoroughly disrupted.
September 11 at 12:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Not to mention all the killing and the dying
September 11 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris Absalon oh abssalon...nice on Sam!
September 11 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris politics is a tough game...and David danced before the covenant....Love the thread!!
September 11 at 12:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks.
September 11 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What about The Law? Where did that come from, huh? It was allowed on account of your weakness.
September 11 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What about all those modern TV shows people watch? Huh?
September 11 at 12:42pm · Like
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Frank Morris J was the best. rhetoric of the most sublime.
September 11 at 12:42pm · Like
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Frank Morris the shows are a distraction from the thread.
September 11 at 12:42pm · Like
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Frank Morris waeving through time and space....
September 11 at 12:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Troll Matthew-- I already granted you "allowed." Defend "encouraged" or "commanded!"
September 11 at 12:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Who are you Frank Morris? And is your spirit animal a falcon?
September 11 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't understand polygamy. I understand the concubine thing, but not polygamy. One wife is enough.
September 11 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris the law is subservient to the presence, but when in the presence--people should follow the law.
September 11 at 12:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha--how could it be allowed if it were totally contrary to the Natural Law?
September 11 at 12:44pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris my spirit is friction.
September 11 at 12:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I was asking "or" which verb
September 11 at 12:44pm · Like
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Joel HF One wife may be too much, in fact, Matthew
September 11 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know. But should I go through the OT law and make you defend everything in it that seems contrary to NL?
September 11 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Probably won't be fun for anyone.
September 11 at 12:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe everything *allowed* under it, I mean
September 11 at 12:46pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21dRPu_v1xU
The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier
The Pogues The Gentleman Soldier http://twitter.com/#!/jimmiwiththeash
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 12:47pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Oh you underestimate me Samantha. My (supposed) Norse ancestors are descended from Loki himself.
September 11 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe How about requiring rape victims to marry their attackers? Everybody for that? Seems cool from a natural law perspective, right?
September 11 at 12:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Isn't it the same as saying our abortion laws aren't contrary to the natural law, since they merely allow - and in fact regulate.
September 11 at 12:48pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Do you remember Norton's analogy of the types of people in section: Sheep (those capable w/ a lot of guidance of reaching the truth); dogs (those who wanted everyone to understand); and wolves? I think I was what he had in mind w/r/t the last category.
September 11 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh gosh, me too
September 11 at 12:49pm · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHCdKb5UWc
The Dark Knight - Some Men Just Want To Watch The World Burn
One, out of many, great lines from The Dark Knight....
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 12:50pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I guess my thesis is that God allowed a lot of messed up stuff in the Old Law because all society everywhere at that point was premised on the idea of women as property. And at that point in salvation history, that wasn't what he was trying to fix.
September 11 at 12:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's bit unsatisfying, but it's a hell of a lot better than the kinds of things you have to say if you want to affirm everything in the Old Law as just.
September 11 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia God allowed a lot of things in the old testament because without grace people are terrible. With grace people are terrible too, but without - done
September 11 at 12:55pm · Like · 4
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Frank Morris the thread is good sport too.
September 11 at 1:07pm · Like
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Frank Morris and some want tikkun olam
September 11 at 1:09pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I'm afraid I have been sadly neglecting The Neverending Thread, but "believe me I shall soon return; my fires are banked, but still they burn."
September 11 at 1:57pm · Like · 7
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Joel HF Edward Langley--more stats & graphs, plz.
September 11 at 2:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ditto^
September 11 at 2:14pm · Like
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Max Summe Some men have hobbies, others have TNET.
September 11 at 2:24pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'd like to know Pater's thoughts on the Old Law and permissibility
September 11 at 2:24pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Max, I'm at work. It's multi-tasking
September 11 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Where's the phony falconaventure? Who is now this thread's officially designated troll?
September 11 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia there's an opening for you....
September 11 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Jon Andrew Greig I second Michael Beitia's interest in Pater Edmund's thoughts.
September 11 at 2:36pm · Like · 3
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Jon Andrew Greig Both on the Old Law and in general.
September 11 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Everything you say is wrong! TAC = Hitler! Gnosis!
September 11 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia closer. but you have to sound normal for a while first. then pull the Linda Blair.
September 11 at 2:52pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe Michael - I just think you know how to do this better than I do...
September 11 at 2:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have years of practice.
September 11 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and plus, it's #gnosis
September 11 at 2:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe True Peregrine-level trolling cannot be faked. We shall never see his like again.
September 11 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe did he disappear? Maybe if we say his name 3x in a mirror...
September 11 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig What. He's...whoa, gone??
September 11 at 2:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Good try, though, Max.
September 11 at 2:58pm · Like
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Max Summe C'mon guys - we just have to believe in him. That's what makes him real!
September 11 at 2:58pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Why is polygamy multiple wifes? Why can't it be multiple husbands, or multiple husbands and multiple wifes? How many spouses does it take to change from poligamous relationship to a commune?
September 11 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh he'll be back. the facebook is just on hiatus.
September 11 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like
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Max Summe he deleted his Peregrine FB account? What about his Scott Whinerberg account?
September 11 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's polyandry or polyamorous
September 11 at 3:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia both on hiatus. I was going to page him
September 11 at 3:01pm · Like
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Max Summe There's no troll like Peregrine, there's no troll like Peregrine. *clicks heels together*
September 11 at 3:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or he blocked me again
September 11 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Probably - he likes blocking TACers
September 11 at 3:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia me in particular....
September 11 at 3:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wonder why?
September 11 at 3:02pm · Like
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Max Summe https://www.facebook.com/scott.weinberg.16?fref=ts - you can't see this one?
September 11 at 3:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I graciously accepted his friend request a while back, only to have it ungraciously revoked.
September 11 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia happened to me before.
September 11 at 3:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's him, Max.
September 11 at 3:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Guess he's still around
September 11 at 3:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe he just blocked this thread, which is why I can't page him
September 11 at 3:03pm · Like
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Max Summe Can the thread survive?
September 11 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia once Pater gets us going again... I have a dinner guest this evening, so I'll be out for most of today
September 11 at 3:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So are the arguments for polygamy different than polyandry or polyamorous relationships? I think there should be more equality among plural unions! Although I am not sure how a family tree would look if 15 people married each other and they all had children.
September 11 at 4:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2w4xiDstgM
Waylon Jennings - Will The Wolf The Survive
Waylon Jennings - Will The Wolf The Survive. Lyrics in...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 11 at 4:09pm · Like
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson Possible fodder for further TNET cogitation: Cajetan, McInerny, Hochschild, and analogy?
September 11 at 4:19pm · Like
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson Is McInerny really as wrong about Cajetan and analogy as I have heard?
September 11 at 4:19pm · Like
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson www.phil-inst.hu/~gyula/files/josh-thesis.pdf
September 11 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 11 at 4:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Looks like it's tapering off.
September 11 at 4:32pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ugh
September 11 at 4:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Philosophically, is the lgbti community against plural marriage?
September 11 at 4:43pm · Like
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Joel HF St. Thomas treats polyandry differently, fwiw.
September 11 at 4:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson, fwiw I had an informal course on analogy with a rather brilliant professor during undergrad, and he argued that McInerny was right. But that was long ago, and memory fades
September 11 at 4:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeff, nature makes it so that paternity is dubitable. Maternity, however, is not. Motherhood and fatherhood are consequently different, and therefore polygamy and polyandry are vastly different
September 11 at 4:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
1959 Michael Beitia
1880 Edward Langley
1603 Scott Weinberg
1346 Daniel Lendman
1141 Samantha Cohoe
1107 John Ruplinger
740 Matthew J. Peterson
705 Joel HF
564 Isak Benedict
419 Joshua Kenz
September 11 at 4:57pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia we're number one! we're number one! (1960) and I'm not stopping until I hit my birth year
September 11 at 4:57pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Note, I've combined "Scott Weinberg" and "Peregrine Bonaventure")
September 11 at 4:58pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Ay.
September 11 at 5:00pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Discuss: "Michael Voris, ie this is why we can't have nice things"
September 11 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, I agree that polyandry is more degrading to the first end of marriage (to borrow Thomas's definition) but would contend that both are equally damaging to the second.
September 11 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Though is also think it's clear that polygamy is very degrading to the first end as well
September 11 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Who is Michael voris? A different troll?
September 11 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I assumed you had already hit your birth year.
September 11 at 5:08pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe Everytime the list of top 10 TNETers is published, I breathe a sigh of relief... that there are 10 people wasting way more time than I am.
September 11 at 5:41pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia not even close yet, Daniel. I assume that you're only a few years younger than me (1961)
September 11 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes, I'm numbering my comments (1962)
September 11 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I can't believe I'm still in the top ten somehow. I've barely had any time to get involved.
September 11 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Beitia, you're just sexist against Matriarchal colonies of drone husbands.
September 11 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It's not sexist that I can't bear offspring. It's the nature of things (1963)
September 11 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I guess I can take some comfort in the fact that I'm not very close to my birth year
September 11 at 6:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Treadmills boring. Moar tnet!
September 11 at 6:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Fine. Podcast it is.
September 11 at 6:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dinner guest on the way, sorry can't help you out
September 11 at 6:33pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Polyandry goes against a primary precept of the natural law, whereas polygyny goes against a secondary precept of the natural law. To understand, procreation is primary and a women having multiple husbands is to use marriage for another end. Clearly she can only get pregnant once, so the primary end is weakened in the use of marriage and the secondary end is weakened. Whereas in polygyny, the primary end is not affected but the 2nd end is weakened.
So both are against the natural law, but the latter is permissible by God for the sake of the higher end
September 11 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz The the objection that polygyny hinders the primary end, not in its basic sense. I have been thinking this, we have tried to throw in the "education of children" as the primary end, but that is not really true. That is an ad hoc change in arguments for NFP. Now the education of children does pertain to the common life of marriage, but in its basic end, in the USE of marriage, i.e. the bodoinky doink, we are speaking of procreation as such, and as such it is not hindered and can be augmented in polygyny, whereas at the very least in polyandry it cannot be augment.
But I do concede Mrs. Samantha Cohoe's point, that a household with multiple wives does have negative consequences to the education of children. And so we might call it indirectly harmful to the primary end, insofar as the primary end entails the education of children as something incumbent on it.
In anycase, polygyny is a bastardized form of marriage, unable to be raised to the state of a sacrament, because that is the image of Christ and His Church ....which makes for some polygamous analogies with certain protestants' belief of many equally "valid"churches.
September 11 at 7:22pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz McIrnerny is unfair to Cajetan on analogy, and is indeed very wrong himself. I have spoken, QED.... but in all seriousness, I will drudge up my thoughts on that. It seems to me that McIrnerny grossly misreads the whole thing
September 11 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Oh yeah, McIrnerny first puts his foot down his mouth with the assertion that EVERY reference by Aquinas is purely logical, and does not involve the analogia entis.
I think the very common example of health in urine, man, food, etc already betrays that as a stretch.
September 11 at 7:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I studied with a student of McInerny and was told that McInerny thought McInerny was wrong but maybe he later corrected himself. That was a long time ago. [I see that he has updated his work. His earlier work was very confusing.]
September 11 at 7:40pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz He also ignores that Cajetan's treatment is not his own, but can be traced back to the defensiones and to Capreolus. He talks about the "medieval" view and paints Cajetan as inventing another thing, ignoring or not putting forth any medieval evidence....when in fact for 2 centuries before Cajetan, we see the substance of his de nomina analogia in other authors
September 11 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I see know reason to see the health example as anything other than a merely logical analogy.
September 11 at 7:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, my inclination is to deny the analogia entis, unless by that you just mean participation.
September 11 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I see no need to have two terms for the same thing.
September 11 at 8:00pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^Scotist
September 11 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, because Scotus won't allow for analogical concepts.
September 11 at 8:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think analogy is, properly speaking, a species of equivocation.
September 11 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell In my opinion Aquinas is too liberal on the question of analogy and predication about God. Aquinas abandons the doctrine of Dionysius at a critical point (I think it's ST I.12 or I.13) and says that when we call God good we don't mean that he is "cause of Good" but that he is actually good. I think that's a mistake.
September 11 at 8:05pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell But Aquinas didn't have the benefit of reading Plotinus.
September 11 at 8:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley Isn't the notion that "Good" names God in his essence just what Damascene and Dionysius mean when they talk about superessential predication?
September 11 at 8:07pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't think so. I can't speak to Damascene, but for Dionysius, 'superessential' simply means 'above' the theophanies. For Dionysius (as Perl would say) 'to be is to be intelligible' ... so when we predicate "good" of God, we're not predicating anything of his essence (no one can do that) but we're making his ousia a reference point. But more properly we said God is "cause of Good" than that God is good.
September 11 at 8:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz By Dionysius, we mean the guy who pretended to be St. Denis, but really was a Platonist many hundred years later....
September 11 at 8:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or someone who was named Dionysius and was assimilated by the medievals to St. Denis.
September 11 at 8:13pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, even Ralph admits the doctrine of analogia entis, and that Aquinas held it. In fact such is necessary for analogical causality, e.g.
September 11 at 8:13pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'd really have to go back to his commentary (and Albert's) on the Divine names and the Celestial Hierarchy to say more about this. It's several years since I've read them.
September 11 at 8:13pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Further, S. Th. I q. 13 must presume an analogia entis, upon which predication follows.
We predicate good of God analogously, is not merely a logical analogy. We are saying that the being of created things, considered under the ratio of the good, reflects God in some way. The very reality we call good is analogous to God as good. See what I am saying?
It seems clear that is not a purely logical analogy then.
September 11 at 8:16pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig Dionysius as a 'Platonist'? what does that even mean? In fact what is a 'Platonist' anyway?
September 11 at 8:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know if we actually disagree, Joshua. I just prefer to talk about analogy in logic and participation in metaphysics.
September 11 at 8:17pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig How do you understand the difference, Edward Langley?
September 11 at 8:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^too much analytical philosophy
September 11 at 8:19pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz On and just as a random aside.... the distinction of nun and sister were abolished in 1983, and before that followed the distinction of order from congregation. A sister took simple vows, nuns took solemn....cloister has nothing to do with it.
Sorry, the false distinction was raised like 10,000 comments ago and I forgot to correct it then
September 11 at 8:19pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Analogy is a doctrine about the use of terms. Participation is a doctrine about formal causality.
September 11 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, for whatever it's worth, Aquinas never uses the phrase "analogia entis".
September 11 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz So?
September 11 at 8:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Your distinction is still your own. Participation is also misleading, and the favorite buzzord of people like Fabro...
September 11 at 8:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Thomastic Gangfight" is my new hiphop group
September 11 at 8:21pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley So, if the question is the priopriety of the phrase "analogia entis", you can't simply claim that Aquinas would sign off on such a phrase.
September 11 at 8:21pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sure I can.He would. It is part of the Thomistic tradition. Only people lke Fabro have conniptions over it.
September 11 at 8:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley As far as I can tell, Thomas is careful to only to use analogy to refer to what was also called "equivocatio a consilio"
September 11 at 8:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Again, analogia entis was the term invented by Thomists for Thomas's doctrine on naming God.
September 11 at 8:24pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Why reinvent the wheel?
September 11 at 8:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley That only proves my point, as far as I can tell: it's primarily a doctrine about naming, not about the being of the things named.
September 11 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz That is a dispute over what the doctrine is
September 11 at 8:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And I think I gave a good reason why every Thomist from Capreolus to the haughty 20th century with its secret gnosis took it as an analogy of being
September 11 at 8:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley What do you mean by "analogy of being"? Do mean that creatures are created according to a divine exemplar?
September 11 at 8:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley And so creaturely perfection derives from divine perfections?
September 11 at 8:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz To the second it is to be said that the Creator and creation are reduced unto one, not by a community of univocation but of analogy. Moreover such a community is able to be in two-ways. Either from this that some things participate something one according to before and after, just as potency and act [participate] the account of being, and similarly substance and accident; or from this that one receives existence and the account from the other, and such is the analogy of creation to the Creator: for creation does not have existence except according as it descends from the first Being: whence neither is it named a being except in as much as it imitates the first Being; and similarly is it concerning wisdom and all other things which are said of creation. (Sup. Sent lib 1 q. 1 a. 2 ad 2)
September 11 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Since marriage is (legally) no longer about children poly-marriages are the next frontier for legalization. The result of which may be seen in the insurance agency requiring a "married" status for adult dependents.
September 11 at 8:35pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Please: let's stop reading Fabro already. I mean, I was fascinated in my senior year but I got over it. Read Doolan. Read Wippel. And re: Dionysius, if you really want to understand him, read Perl.
September 11 at 8:35pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig ^ On the latter, also Dillon/Wear.
September 11 at 8:39pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Kenz, just curious, how do you understand Dionysius as a 'Platonist'?
September 11 at 8:41pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Edward Langley: In Sent I. 19: "aliquid dicitur secundum analogiam tripliciter: vel secundum intentionem tantum, et non secundum esse ... Vel secundum esse et non secundum intentionem ... Vel secundum intentionem et secundum esse."
September 11 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Owen White What upsets me most about this thread is that in 17,264 comments there has not been a single bawdy limerick. What the hell did they teach you people at TAC?
September 11 at 8:53pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell There once was a man from Nantucket ...
September 11 at 8:54pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict In the garden of Eden lay Adam
Quite merrily boning his madam
For he knew in his mirth
That upon the whole earth
There were only two balls, and he had 'em.
September 11 at 8:54pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict *bows*
September 11 at 8:55pm · Like · 4
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Owen White Thank you good sir, thank you.
September 11 at 8:55pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict My pleasure.
September 11 at 8:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell If Peregine falcon were still here he would get his knickers in a twist about that one.
September 11 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict He can go boil his head.
September 11 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Platonists=Canadians
September 11 at 9:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Woah. Let's take it easy there, Catherine.
September 11 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Are you insulting Canadians or Platonists?
September 11 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Woah. Let's take it easy there, Joel.
September 11 at 9:33pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I take it Sean Robertson is a Canadian.
September 11 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Woah. Let's take it eas- No wait, that's right. I am.
September 11 at 9:35pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Take a poll.
September 11 at 9:35pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think you'll find many, many Canadians with Platonist sympathies and vice versa.
September 11 at 9:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Recent archaeological data suggests St. Thomas was actually Canadian. Scotus, meanwhile, was apparently from California.
September 11 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
578 Jehoshaphat Escalante
352 Catherine Ryland
349 Jeffrey Bond
345 John Boyer
318 Daniel P. O'Connell
270 Jeff Neill
248 Nina Rachele
224 Pater Edmund
220 Megan Baird
179 Adrw Lng
September 11 at 9:39pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante can that be right? I'm pleased if so but I haven't commented much in the last two days
September 11 at 9:39pm · Like
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Sean Robertson It pleases me that my name doesn't appear.
September 11 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (That was 11-20)
September 11 at 9:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley 166 Jody Haaf Garneau
163 Lauren Ogrodnick
151 Tim Cantu
150 Frank Morris
146 Sam Rocha
136 Marie Pitt-Payne
106 Katie Duda
101 Marina Shea
81 Aaron Gigliotti
80 Tom Sundaram
September 11 at 9:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
71 Bekah Sims Andrews
68 Philip D. Knuffke
56 Sean Robertson
56 Megan Caughron
54 Max Summe
50 Aaron Dunkel
49 John Kunz
45 Wendy Irene
40 Jason Van Boom
39 Andrew Whaley
September 11 at 9:43pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Canadians can also be formidable trolls.
September 11 at 9:49pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I've sure dropped... But I guess that's what happens when I have reading I have to do for classes while nursing instead of Facebook ...
September 11 at 9:50pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick And I'm not a Platonist...
September 11 at 9:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Are you Canadian?
September 11 at 9:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It isn't right Jehoshaphat Escalante. You have more than #10 on the earlier posted list....
September 11 at 9:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley It is, in 1-10 I hadn't taken in account that Jehoshaphat Escalante had changed his Facebook name recently.
September 11 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, really, Joshua Kenz should be in 11-20
September 11 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yes, I am Canadian...
September 11 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The Apology was definitely a Canadian work.
September 11 at 10:03pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Haha!
September 11 at 10:03pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Maybe growing up in proximity to Ontario (on the Detroit side) influenced me to be a Platonist ... although I'm not as comfortable with that label these days. More of a Cusan.
September 11 at 10:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Sorry)
September 11 at 10:03pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell If Canadians are Platonists, does this mean that De Koninck was a crypto-Platonist?
September 11 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia crypto-Platano-proto-Aristotelian?
September 11 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, I think I just like giving you a hard time. I have no problem calling it participation, as long as one understand that participation as according to analogy! That is, we do not participate univocally but by analogy in the good, being, etc
See what I did there?
September 11 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I see what you did, but I'm not sure I'd phrase it that way.
September 11 at 10:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I grant that the X in itself and participated X aren't named X univocally.
September 11 at 10:31pm · Like
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Liz Neill Dear Isak, you made my evening so much better.
September 11 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But we can participate either univocally or by analogy. And Aquinas is explicit on this. Indeed he faults Plato for reducing all participation to univocal participation
September 11 at 10:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Do you have a citation? I recall texts like that, but I forget the context.
September 11 at 10:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That is right, you weren't in the class on the de hebdomadibus
Lectio 2 and 3. Essentially there are 3 modes of participation. Species participates genus (this is a weak way, and in other places he prefers not to call it participation), 2. matter participates form, accidents substance, etc. The third way, via causality, can be either univocal or analogical. It is analogical in creature to creator, univocal as fire causes heat. Or as medicine causes health!
September 11 at 10:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley I see texts talking about participation according to before and after.
September 11 at 10:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The upshot is that Aquinas sees Platonic participation as univocal. The analogia entis can be called participation but one must clarify that it is not according to the manner Aquinas ascribes to Plato
September 11 at 10:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So thomists hold that created things are good by analogy not by actually participating in God's goodness, but a "platonist" would say participation in God's goodness is direct?
September 11 at 11:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz No, they actually participate, according to analogy. Analogy doesn't mean fictitious or only potentially
September 11 at 11:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley This is the difficulty I have, though: if there is something real common by which the name applies analogously, then it would just seem to be univocation; otherwise, if there is no community, wouldn't it just be pure equivocation?
September 11 at 11:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley I actually need to think out the last question.
September 11 at 11:15pm · Like
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John Boyer I just like to think of participation in terms of efficient causality, which I think is third sense of De heb.
September 11 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John, doesn't it have to involve formal causality as well? (not intrinsic form, but form in the sense of exemplar).
September 11 at 11:16pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Community according to participation! To say that is not "actual" participation is to beg the question about whether participation can be analogous.
The goodness, e.g., in the man really is analogous to the goodness of God (not just the name, the goodness itself). If we possessed God Himself as our goodness, would that be being good by essence, rather than participation? But we say the goodness in us is like to the goodness of God.
September 11 at 11:21pm · Like
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John Boyer Yes
September 11 at 11:34pm · Like
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John Boyer But the efficient says why there's a connection present in first place.
September 11 at 11:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley But the efficiency isn't why we call it "participation".
September 11 at 11:37pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So since goodness is only analogous, man does not "really" participate in God's goodness. Right?
September 11 at 11:37pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, he really really does, according to analogy
September 11 at 11:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Analogy does not mean metaphor
September 11 at 11:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But Analogies are not real things.
September 11 at 11:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Analogies are dumb like a bag of hammers or a box of rocks.
September 11 at 11:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley Doesn't all that mean in this case is something like man's goodness : man as God's goodness : God ?
September 11 at 11:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The being which is analogous is real
September 11 at 11:52pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz created goodness: Divine Good:: as creature: God
September 11 at 11:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hmmm sounds accidental
September 11 at 11:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley That only justifies a transference of the name.
September 11 at 11:53pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And, possibly, of the concept: but I'm still not sure whether an analogous name corresponds to a single concept or not.
September 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Like I said accidental due to word choice, but not real
September 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, Mr. Neill
September 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is not accidental
September 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ratios are nice but the words are different
September 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That I am created by God
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sure it is
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not sure if you are being serious...are you trolling?
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Is your goodness his?
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Are you trolling?
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or only good by analogy?
September 11 at 11:55pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I don't think you know what that word means
September 11 at 11:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm challenging your topic
September 11 at 11:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, you are showing no familiarity with the topic
September 11 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Sorry about this, but I think it more fruitful to engage Edward Langley
September 11 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Because I'm not quoting text?
September 11 at 11:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I didn't mean to interrupt your bromance.
September 11 at 11:57pm · Like
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Liz Neill Asking questions is relevant here.
September 12 at 12:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The transference of the name is justified because the corresponding concept is analogous to the reality which is God? What I mean is that not even the concept of divine goodness signifies univocally divine goodness
Aquinas certainly speaks of a community here, of analogy. According to before and after is the 2nd sense of participation used in the de hebdomadibus. But the 3rd mode is according to efficient cause, as one being receives existence from another.
Sup. Sent lib 1 q. 1 a. 2 ad 2)
September 12 at 12:05am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill If you prefer to engage one on one, without allowing other input, might I suggest pm? It' super cool!
September 12 at 12:03am · Like
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Liz Neill Download the app!!!!
September 12 at 12:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I only mean that it is more fruitful to discuss one topic at one time. Are we asking about Aquinas' doctrine of analogy, and its relation to being, or are we going to analogy 101 and trying to cover the very basic rudiments? Both can be fruitful, but it is confusing at the same time and therefore, personally, I am just saying I will be answering Langley on this topic...especially since half of the time he responds I am answering Jeff and vice versa, confusing as heck.
September 12 at 12:07am · Like
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Jeff Neill In that sense nothing participates in God's goodness univocally, except Himself. All participation is by analogy.
September 12 at 12:08am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And of course answering anyone else on the same topic. Feel free to have a parallel conversation on the "challenge" to the very idea of analogy brought by Jeff. Just two similar, but divergent topics is confusing for me to participate in.
September 12 at 12:09am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Not all participation is in God. Accident participates substance. This has already been covered aptly
September 12 at 12:09am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Which is why you should read the cited texts
September 12 at 12:10am · Like
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Jeff Neill It very well may be what Thomas said, I'm not sure I agree with it.
September 12 at 12:11am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz So accidents don participate their substance?
September 12 at 12:12am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And we don't call medicine healthy?
September 12 at 12:12am · Like
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Jeff Neill No we don't
September 12 at 12:13am · Like
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Jeff Neill Medicine is not healthy.
September 12 at 12:13am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay, now I know you are a troll. Consider this my last post direct at you
September 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Jeff Neill It is a cause of effects not all effects are healthy
September 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Liz Neill NOT all medicine is healthy
September 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Kevin Gallagher SECUNDUUUUM QUIDDDDDDD
See Translation
September 12 at 12:14am · Like · 5
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Kevin Gallagher sorry i will see myself out now
September 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Jeff Neill You are young and full of yourself.
September 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Liz Neill Not a troll. Not in the least
September 12 at 12:15am · Like
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Liz Neill Come on. Put your big boy pants on.
September 12 at 12:15am · Like
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JL Liedl This status has been at the top of my news feed for two weeks straight.
September 12 at 12:16am · Like · 7
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Liz Neill Uh huh
September 12 at 12:17am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is sign of trolling when someone tries to argue over trivialities. It is stupid as the objection against saying man is a rational animal, that some men are irrational. Yes medicine, meaning drugs, can be good or bad. But we do say that this medicine/food is healthy, as a cause of health, or that this complexion or urine is healthy as a sign of health. To object that some medicine is not healthy is an idiotic objection that mises the point
September 12 at 12:17am · Like · 3
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Liz Neill How old are you Joshua?
September 12 at 12:19am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick And this just went downhill again... This is worse than freshmen Theology...
September 12 at 12:19am · Like · 8
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Jeff Neill I've been blocked. Haha. I guess he is Not willing to communicate.
September 12 at 12:20am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz So Mrs. Lauren Ogrodnick, I heard they ban baby walkers in Canada
September 12 at 12:20am · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Josh, honestly, if you disagree with others, why do you block them? This should be an open discussion. That's how conversions happen, no?
September 12 at 12:21am · Like
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Joshua Kenz As long as we are doing non serious discussion, would that make this depiction of the holy family encourage to break the law? http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../Jesus_in_a_baby_walker...
September 12 at 12:22am · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Deflect much? Come on! Let's figure this out.
September 12 at 12:23am · Like
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Edward Langley I think the point, Jeff, is that we call the medicine that is healthy, healthy because it causes health.
But, as far as I can see, there are three levels of community:
1) community according to names
2) possibly community according to concepts
3) possibly community in reality
Without (2) or (3), (1) seems to be pure equivocation: like "bat", the mammal and "bat", the stick one hits a baseball with.
(2) is obvious in the case of a univocal name: then there is one name and one concept and these together pick out one kind of thing.
It's less obvious to me how to parse (2) in analogy: some people (Henry of Ghent for one) say that analogous concepts are concepts that appear to be one but, upon consideration, turn out to be two. As far as I can tell, one interpretation of Aquinas is that there is one concept which, through consideration, is extended to take on additional meanings in a certain order.
I'm not sure at all how to understand (3): i.e. how to understand real community of kind existing outside the mind. The triplex consideratio in De Ente makes it seem like the universal/common nature is only something in the mind and that everything outside the mind is individual. But, perhaps Aquinas's view is closer to Scotus's and there is a real community secundum rem.
September 12 at 12:25am · Like
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Nina Rachele figure something out? this is TNET... the dark abode of unresolved questions and half-finished thoughts... where your friendliest neighbour could become the troll of your worst nightmares... *cue spooky music*
September 12 at 12:26am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley As far as analogy goes, though, it seems to avoid (3), although perhaps Dominic Bolin's text suggests something else.
September 12 at 12:26am · Like
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Edward Langley http://socraticum.com is where those questions should move to be discussed to a resolution
Socraticum.com
Discussion group for TACers and friends
SOCRATICUM.COM
September 12 at 12:26am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Liz Neill All hail Joshua Kenz! He reigns supreme!
September 12 at 12:26am · Like
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Edward Langley (Just a little bit of periodic advertising).
September 12 at 12:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, I am agreed.
September 12 at 12:29am · Like
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Liz Neill @nina. True that
September 12 at 12:31am · Like
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Edward Langley What do you make of analogous concepts, Joshua? Scotus is pretty critical of them in the Lectura (I d.3 p.1 q.1-2) but he seems to be focused on Henry of Ghent's position without considering alternative views.
September 12 at 12:33am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Goodness would seem to be In the third sense, since it is not in just the mind; however it does not seem to be individual. I have not read scotus yet, but he seems like something I would be interested in
September 12 at 12:40am · Edited · Like
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Liz Neill If people Unfriend people, it's cowardly. Just saying.
September 12 at 12:39am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Jeff you weren't blocked. But I may block Liz soon enough for my own sanity
September 12 at 12:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Langley, I would have to look at the texts. What exactly is meant, in that context, by analogous concept? Or maybe that is dangerous, seeing as SCotus is not at all clear about analogy.
September 12 at 12:42am · Like
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Edward Langley It looks to me like it means a concept that initially appears to the intellect to be one concept but which, upon consideration, is discovered to be two
September 12 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But just so similar as to be conflated? Would that be like "children call all men fathers, then they learn to divide", namely distinguish the concept of man from father?
September 12 at 12:45am · Like
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Edward Langley The example we went over in class was "ens". For Henry of Ghent, to say that the concept "ens" is analogous is to say that, to ordinary people, it is taken as one concept. When philosophers reflect on that concept, they realize that there actually were two concepts: ens negative indeterminatum and ens privative indeterminatum.
September 12 at 12:46am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (the former is such that it cannot receive any further determination while the latter is such that it is able to receive any determination).
September 12 at 12:47am · Like
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Joshua Kenz So pure act and pure potency, in Thomistic terms
September 12 at 12:48am · Like
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Edward Langley I think it's more like esse divinum et esse commune: I'm not sure if the latter is the same as "pure potency".
September 12 at 12:49am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh, so we are considering ens through abstraction, namely from any way of being, and not as principles of things...so abstraction in the ...3rd sense? Oh I forget the numbering, the sort of abstraction by which we say that the genus "animal" is not rational
September 12 at 12:51am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah.
September 12 at 12:52am · Like
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Liz Neill Jeff Neil is the new troll!!!
September 12 at 12:53am · Like
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Edward Langley The context is a question about whether we know God through a concept univocal to him and creatures.
September 12 at 12:55am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Do keep in mind I have been awake sins 9 am....Sept 10th. Brain is not functioning as sharply as usual
And I am glad another nerd makes homonym typos.....no and know especially
September 12 at 12:56am · Unlike · 2
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Liz Neill FB messenger, for reals...
September 12 at 12:58am · Like
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Liz Neill Kidding
September 12 at 12:58am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yes, baby walkers are banned in Canada... I guess too many babies were throwing themselves down stairs or something... But she's going to take her first steps in Virginia probably and I guess US babies are not as inclined to suicide by means of a walker and a set of stairs.
September 12 at 1:00am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Where's that?
September 12 at 1:00am · Like
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Edward Langley coming from?
September 12 at 1:01am · Like
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Liz Neill Moment of silence for those who lost their lives. I will nerver forget an God bless their families.
September 12 at 1:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz So we know that our concept of God or any attribute of Him, is not a proper species, save in the Beatific vision. So the question is, do we have one concept, which is referred analogously to God, or do we have two concepts, one for created goodness and another for God, with that concept being the same but including say containing the denial of imperfection, etc?
September 12 at 1:02am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Because we cannot have a concept that is not founded on created reality in some way...
September 12 at 1:02am · Like
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Edward Langley I think that might be an important distinction but for Henry of Ghent, God is the primo cognitum.
September 12 at 1:03am · Like
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Liz Neill @josh true I actually agree
September 12 at 1:04am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just wondering how united in the mind the concepts corresponding to spoken words are.
September 12 at 1:05am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Play nice, children, or I'll beat you all up and then shank your goldfish
September 12 at 1:16am · Edited · Like · 5
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Liz Neill Josh, please don't write like Aristotle..
September 12 at 1:16am · Like
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Edward Langley Aristotle always seems to write clearly, to me.
September 12 at 1:18am · Edited · Like
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Liz Neill @isak !! Fish sticks
September 12 at 1:20am · Like
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Isak Benedict Do you like fish sticks?
September 12 at 1:23am · Like
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Isak Benedict Both Josh and Ed are pretty solid thinkers by the way guys. Let's be nice and not throw nasty accusations about youth around. Do what I do and call people bastards like a gentleman.
September 12 at 1:24am · Like · 3
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Jason Van Boom The Thread is back!
September 12 at 2:26am · Like
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Jason Van Boom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv1PF0tAE1s
General Mcarthur: "People of the Philippines, I have returned"
TO THE PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES: I have...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 2:27am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau You TAC mom types -- do you know we actually have a discussion list for TAC moms. It jumps around much like TNET but we have the sense to separate discussions by topic. We use google groups as our format now (moved from a fb group). Message me to figure out how to get in.
September 12 at 2:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman For all questions on analogy from 100's of comments ago, Joshua Kenz and Edward Langley:
http://www.amazon.com/.../dp/1449977677/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3...
Understanding St. Thomas on Analogy
This book is a reprint of the dissertation that won the 2009 Prize of the Pontifical Academies. The analogy of names...
AMAZON.COM
September 12 at 2:52am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Greg Rocca is good on analogy as well
September 12 at 3:09am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I know someone made recordings of at least a good portion of Nieto's 2005/2006 weekly lecturs on analogy. Does anyone have a copy of them? Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund Caleb Cohoe
September 12 at 8:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sadly, no.
September 12 at 9:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What's wrong with all you people?? I'm gone for ONE night, and nobody bothers to contradict Mr. Kenz's outrageous assertion that the primary end of marriage is the begetting and NOT the rearing of children? Do I have to do everything around here??
September 12 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia So let me get this straight: Health is said primarily of the body, and secondarily of the effects of health (urine etc) and causes of health (medicine or food). This example is to teach us about God's goodness, right? the only sticking point is the understanding of analogy?
September 12 at 9:40am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Actually, I'm not sure either is correctly identified as the primary end.
It seems to me (and I may be waaaaay off base here) that marriage as sacrament exists to give grace. Primarily, then, marriage would exist to get one to heaven, through the production/raising of offspring
September 12 at 9:49am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, maybe that would be the primary supernatural end, and the begetting and rearing of children would be the primary natural one.
September 12 at 10:04am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz's argument would mean that a family with 12 kids who abandon them all is fulfilling the primary end of marriage as well as another family with 12 or fewer kids who raise them well.
September 12 at 10:05am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Furthermore, St. Thomas says the primary end is the begetting and rearing of children, so what's the deal Mr. Kenz? Do you know better than St. Thomas?
September 12 at 10:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Y'all need to read some more Aristotle. The end of the oak tree is to produce another oak tree, not just an acorn.
September 12 at 10:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, Samantha, I missed that.
No, it is quite clear that when one begets children there is an obligation, likewise to educate them. This is always part of the account of the primary end of marriage.
September 12 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children unto adulthood.
September 12 at 10:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I'd be surprised if Joshua finally disagrees. Apparently he was quite sleep deprived.
September 12 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think your "reduxio" argument is valid and true, Samantha Cohoe. Also, you are right that St. Thomas mentions procreation and education together.
September 12 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, his argument would imply that it's perfectly fine for a woman whose husband is sterile to have another husband, since it's all about getting pregnant
September 12 at 10:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't have time to look up the references now, but they are there for anyone doesn't believe me.
September 12 at 10:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, Daniel, I don't understand how you're still ahead of me in the standings. You're ever here anymore.
September 12 at 10:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know!
September 12 at 10:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I had a streak there for a while.
September 12 at 10:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or, rather, that it isn't against the primary end of marriage for a woman to have another husband if her first one fails to beget children on her.
September 12 at 10:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am going to have to be more attentive to my TNET obligations.
September 12 at 10:12am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^I suppose that is correct.
September 12 at 10:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe if the begetting of children is the *only* primary end, there would be situations in which polyandry wouldn't be against the primary end of marriage
September 12 at 10:13am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I really just need to pass up Weinberg so I can hold a comfortable third place for awhile.
September 12 at 10:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't mind you pass me up, though, Samantha.
September 12 at 10:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously. TNET was flagging there until the scintillating issue of analogy revived it.
September 12 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Today in Austria we celebrate the victory over the Turks at the battle of Vienna.
September 12 at 10:18am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Before the battle the Turks were In Trumau, the town I live in. All the people gathered in prayer in the church, and the damnable infidels came and burned the church to the ground with the people inside.
September 12 at 10:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Austrians still don't like Turks.
September 12 at 10:20am · Like
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Joel HF I actually meant to say something about this earlier, but got distracted. Here's a quote in Latin (I had to type it out by hand since I don't know of an online latin edition of the Supplement to the III part): "Matrimonium ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et educationem: qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui generis: unde et aliis animalibus est communis.” ST IIIa Supplement Q 65 Art 1
September 12 at 10:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which is why their immigration laws are so tough.
September 12 at 10:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^You're a boss, Joel HF.
September 12 at 10:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^I don't really know what that means.
September 12 at 10:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^I picked up while teaching high school.
September 12 at 10:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I really do need to go now.
September 12 at 10:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I will be back and better than ever. \
September 12 at 10:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I promise.
September 12 at 10:22am · Like
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Joel HF To play devil's advocate, how does one translate "educationem" here? This end is one which we hold generically, and thus it is common to animals (perhaps Mammals would have been better, since plenty of animals do nothing to rear their young in any sense).
September 12 at 10:23am · Like
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Joel HF If it is in common with animals, how is it that we take "educationem"? Clearly not any strong sense of "educate," perhaps, "rear" would be better. And if that is the case, and this end is in common with (some) other animals, how much is expected there? I.e. would polygamy still be contrary to this primary end?
September 12 at 10:27am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF To proceed slightly less trollishly, the education bit is often taken as an argument against big families period. I remember reading a NYT article with some lady Episcopalian "bishop" (that would be in quotation marks regardless of her sex), and she claimed that the reason Episcopalians had so few children was that they focused on quality not quantity. I do wonder if a slightly less elevated standard ought to be held ("we have 2 kids, because we can only afford to send 2 through Princeton and then to Grad school").
September 12 at 10:32am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't think that polygamy violates the primary end.
I think that educate could be rendered as rear. I think the idea, generally speaking, is that one's offspring must be able to reasonably attain the ends of the said species. Animals with higher/more complex ends, tend to need more time with parents in order to do this.
Humans, however, have by nature the ability to reason and know their end. Consequently, 'education' is used properly for humans in distinction from other animals, since humans must be taught about their end and how best to pursue it.
September 12 at 10:31am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^This is, at least, how I always thought about it.
September 12 at 10:33am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I can't like Daniel's last comment, because of the WRONG first paragraph, but the latter paragraph is what I was going to say
September 12 at 10:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Maybe, in the first paragraph I should have added the qualifier 'evidently' so I might emmend it to say:
I don't think that polygamy EVIDENTLY violates the primary end.
September 12 at 10:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Aquinas has a text where he talks about how, had it not been revealed, it is highly unlikely that mankind would have been able to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural law.
September 12 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman He does, however, hold that it is according to natural law.
September 12 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What about the arguments about the damage polygamy does to the rearing of children?
September 12 at 10:36am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Monogamy, that is.
September 12 at 10:36am · Like
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Joel HF The secondary end--i.e. the one proper to man as man, and not just as animal--is “communicationem operum quae sunt necessaria in vita” (See Aristotle NE VIII 12). Here "necessaria in vita" seems to be not just bodily necessities (though it includes that) but also the beginnings of that which man ultimately lives in community for--i.e. family goods which ultimately lead to political goods.
September 12 at 10:36am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's highly unlikely that *men* would have been willing to see the necessity of monogamy as a tenet of natural law
September 12 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It'd be pretty obvious to women
September 12 at 10:37am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Daniel is correct. Aquinas thinks that because of the way in which custom obscures things that aren't the first precepts of natrual law (and with our greater knowledge of anthropology, perhaps we could say, even the first precepts occasionally!), that Man is basically highly likely to err on such points.
September 12 at 10:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I don't know the arguments that polygamy damages children. My thought would be that such concerns are proper to our times.
September 12 at 10:37am · Like
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Joel HF This is because women are more ordered to the second end of marriage: i.e. fidelity.
September 12 at 10:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nonsense
September 12 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That being said, of all the patriarchs, only Isaac had only one wife.
September 12 at 10:38am · Like
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Joel HF (Begins fiddling while TNET burns!)
September 12 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman He had fewer problems.
September 12 at 10:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? Do you not recall the Old Testament?
September 12 at 10:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But his children were still pretty messed up.
September 12 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I need to type faster, obviously
September 12 at 10:39am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The damage polygamy does to children is pretty thoroughly documented in the Old Testament. it's not a modern concern
September 12 at 10:39am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We had this whole conversation yesterday.
September 12 at 10:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives and it seems pretty clear that this caused them problems.
September 12 at 10:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Sorry, I missed it.
September 12 at 10:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isaac, apparently turned out okay.
September 12 at 10:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Though, obviously Ishmael had problems.
September 12 at 10:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ishmael would have to have had serious Daddy issues.
September 12 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes, and it is opposed to the secondary end, that which is proper to man qua man. I still don't see that it is opposed to "rearing" generically.
September 12 at 10:41am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman No question that polygamy violates the secondary end of marriage.
September 12 at 10:42am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do you think that damage that occurs to children in the process of raising them is incidental to the "rearing of children?"
September 12 at 10:42am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't understand how children are the primary end, when I thought the primary end of all sacraments were the sanctification of the person.
Isn't that the primary end of all sacraments qua sacraments?
September 12 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I don't think the damage done to women by polygamy should be considered incidental to the primary end of marriage.
September 12 at 10:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps one could conclude that polygamy harms the full success of the first end of marriage, but does not contradict the first end? What do you think of that, Samantha Cohoe?
September 12 at 10:43am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I hate it.
September 12 at 10:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Really?
September 12 at 10:43am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But that's how I feel about it, let me consider what I think about it for a minute
September 12 at 10:43am · Like
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Joel HF The goods of marriage (according to St. Thomas following Peter Lombard) are ""faith, offspring, and sacrament."
September 12 at 10:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I think that is true about Sacraments in general, but this does not distinguish the sacraments.
September 12 at 10:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Each Sacrament has a proper end.
September 12 at 10:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, we must remember to distinguish between the goods of marriage and the ends of marriage.
September 12 at 10:44am · Like
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Joel HF The third end of marriage (for marriage between believers) (per STA) is "the signification of Christ and the Church." Though this is only a tertiary end, and is not common even to all men, for those with a sacramental marriage it is the most important, imo.
September 12 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm confused about Thomas's numbering of the ends of marriage and how that relates to the relative importance of those ends
September 12 at 10:45am · Like
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Joel HF Yeah, I was gonna link them up, but I don't type nearly fast enough here. But it was sloppy to just post that without doing the linkage in that post.
September 12 at 10:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Church today in her documents tends to not speak of marriage as an institution but as a "community of life." Likewise, the church like to speak of the goods of marriage and not the ends.
September 12 at 10:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For Thomas, (and I think this is true) the only difference between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is that in the later the couple are baptized.
September 12 at 10:47am · Like
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Joel HF I think (and please remember that I'm the furthest thing from an authority) that they simply go from most common to most specific. The most important end has got to be the third (for those for whom that end obtains), as far as I can see. And this speaks to Michael Beitia's point as well.
September 12 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's misleading, then, to say that polygamy is only against natural law "secondarily"
September 12 at 10:49am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it is flat out wrong to say that marriage is against natural law.
September 12 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I edited
September 12 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Parapraxis!
September 12 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman
September 12 at 10:49am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dude, I am pro-marriage both consciously and sub-consciously.
September 12 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think it dismissive to wave a hand and say that the proper end of any sacrament differs from the specific end of *that* sacrament
September 12 at 10:50am · Like
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Joel HF @Daniel Lendman--that difference gives them a 3rd end as well, to be a sign of Christ and his church, and thus to strengthen each other in faith, etc. It is from the third end that the first and third good proceed.
September 12 at 10:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think that polygamy is against natural law, simply speaking.
September 12 at 10:50am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Sacraments, in general, are for the sake of sanctification.
September 12 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Each sacrament has a particular means by which that is accomplished..
September 12 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes, and thus the other ends are ordered toward that.
Baptism removes original sin - for the sake of sanctification, right?
September 12 at 10:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think that is true.
September 12 at 10:52am · Like
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Joel HF Yes, but STA thinks that polygamy for non-believers could be allowed through a special dispensation from God (and otherwise it couldn't be, though many gentile nations would fall into error), but could never be allowed for sacramental marriages.
September 12 at 10:53am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I just mis-typed big time and so I deleted a comment.
September 12 at 10:57am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Don't respond to the clearly stupid thing I wrote.
September 12 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What I meant to write, is that marriage as an institution has ends that are inherent to it. The first of these ends is procreation.
September 12 at 10:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do we have to say that God "allowed" polygamy in any special way, other than the way many evils are allowed?
September 12 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Christ, by raising marriage to a sacrament, did not change nature essentially. He just made the pursuit of those ends of marriage meritorious of efficacious grace.
September 12 at 10:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Out of piety, we should be hesitant to say that the Old Testament saints sinned in polygamy.
September 12 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^I think.
September 12 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe aaccch
September 12 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know, I know.
September 12 at 10:57am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Abraham is clearly portrayed as sinning when he takes Hagar.
September 12 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think I see why one would read it that way.
September 12 at 10:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think we are obliged to see the Patriarchs as heroes of faith, not as heroes of virtue
September 12 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think many (if not all) the fathers avoided such interpretations.
September 12 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, sure. I'm aware that they did.
September 12 at 10:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe They were wrong, weren't they?
September 12 at 10:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Augustine says some of the dumbest things ever said about sex on the topic of the patriarchs and their wives.
September 12 at 10:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, I am really scared to go against nigh universal patristic authority.
September 12 at 10:59am · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously, David only used his hundreds of wives for procreation?Seriously?
September 12 at 10:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Bathsheba was the only time he sinned in lust?
September 12 at 11:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Maybe?
September 12 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Please.
September 12 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--yes, qua sacrament (as far as I can tell), the mutual strengthening of faith and the marriage as "signification of Christ and the Church" are what is most important. Unlike the other sacraments, however, there is "natural marriage" as well, and sacramental marriage also shares the natural ends.
September 12 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Like I said, I understand the force of your argument but I am prevented from assenting because of the fathers.
September 12 at 11:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF that is along the lines of what I was trying to say.
September 12 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Augustine was messed up by the Manichees on this. They used the immorality of the Patriarchs as an argument against the catholic faith, so he felt obliged to defend them.
September 12 at 11:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Or he was saintly, wise, and correct.
September 12 at 11:02am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman And it is just hard for us to understand because of the intellectual and cultural customs of our day.
September 12 at 11:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'll give you the saintly and wise parts
September 12 at 11:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry? It's hard to understand why a man would want several hundred wives and concubines?
September 12 at 11:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isn't it at least possible that he saw things more clearly that we do?
September 12 at 11:03am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think so.
September 12 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think, again, that the results of polygamy speak for themselves (David, Solomon)
September 12 at 11:04am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe On a lot of things. This just flies in the face of everything that is obvious about human nature
September 12 at 11:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman He wanted so many wives so that he could help bring forth the Christ.
September 12 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe He only needed Bathsheba to bring forth the Christ. And that's the one situation that Augustine concedes was sinful
September 12 at 11:05am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I think you are right that the Old Testament shows that polygamy is a bad idea.
September 12 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but it worked out pretty badly, plus the sin of David is Bathsheba
September 12 at 11:05am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, but he didn't know that?
September 12 at 11:05am · Like
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Joel HF I'm no scripture expert, but I don't think we have reason to think that David had "hundreds" of wives do we? Solomon, who we are explicitly told had hundreds of wives, clearly sinned in taking so many--though lust doesn't seem to have been the prime motivation there, or even the primary sin.
September 12 at 11:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're saying he needed to make sure God could bring about his promises by making every attractive woman in Israel and the surrounding nations his wife or concubine?
September 12 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia after killing their husbands, right?
September 12 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, you're right, not hundreds for David. more like dozens. The point still stands
September 12 at 11:07am · Like
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Joel HF As for Abraham and Hagar, Abraham's fault there--though really, Sarah's, right?--doesn't seem to be lust but lack of faith.
September 12 at 11:08am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, on both their parts.
September 12 at 11:09am · Like
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Joel HF FB is lagging for me, so I'm replying to posts WAY up thread, just fyi, y'all.
September 12 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Joel HF But, to Samantha's point about why man would take so many wives--I think that in a society like Solomon's it is more about pride and ostentation ("look how powerful I am") than it is directly about lust. Not that lust isn't involved as well, but it seems more like signaling to other nations / his own subjects how rich and wealthy he was.
September 12 at 11:12am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's a huge part of it, it's true. The point is that Augustine didn't want to think of the Patriarchs as sexual sinners, so he came up with this explanation about "use" of their many wives to explain it. It leads him to make some excuses for polygamy that are false. It also misses the point of a lot of those stories, esp. the Abraham and Hagar one.
September 12 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But should we actually feel the need to assert that the patriarchs didn't sin sexually? It would be astonishing if they didn't, right? Basically a miracle.
September 12 at 11:15am · Like
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Joel HF Yeah, I think Augustine's reading of the patriarchs is motivated by his desire to see the patriarchs as good, and that the text of the OT doesn't always bear this up.
September 12 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Joel HF That said, for men back then, children, LOTS of children, would be hugely important. Which wouldn't make it right to take a concubine b/c your wife was barren, but is slightly different that plain lust (though lust can be a compenent as well). In our society, men are so desirous of avoiding kids that this is sometimes easy to forget.
September 12 at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sure. Also,the sin of lust is not really discussed the in OT. It's only coveting another man's wife that is wrong, and that's because of the sin against the other man, not the lust per se.
September 12 at 11:24am · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I keep getting tagged in TNET and I can't find the post because immensity
September 12 at 11:28am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Adrw Lng--I tagged you, trying to see if any one had the audio recordings of Nieto's lectures on analogy our senior year. I think the person who made them may be a monk now...
September 12 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Hi Joel, I don't think I have them, I'm afraid. I will root around a little anyway and see if I find anything
September 12 at 11:34am · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig Btw, 133,873 left for us... http://recordsetter.com/.../comment-thread-facebook.../12596
Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Wall Post
DawarKazi set this world record with RecordSetter, a...
RECORDSETTER.COM
September 12 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng ^ More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.
September 12 at 11:39am · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Sorry, just getting caught up on my morning reading. To the point made right after I went to sleep on dialog with Kenz.
No matter how "good a thinker" a person may be, it does not give them a pass to be immature.
September 12 at 11:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill It would be easier to think that a patriarch sinned in lust for taking multiple wives and still reaching sainthood or patriarch status than to assume all actions of a patriarch were not sinful
September 12 at 11:46am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Although charity in assuming the best possible answer is nice.
September 12 at 11:47am · Like
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Jeff Neill If you remove sacramental marriage from the consideration than nearly any configuration for marriage could meet the end of rearing/educating children
September 12 at 11:50am · Like
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Jeff Neill (Since children do not only occur in marriage, although it is more ordered to production of children)
September 12 at 11:52am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm curious, but the point still stands, that if the end of a sacrament insofar as it is a sacrament, and the "primary end" of procreation is ordered toward the final end.
The difference, it seems to me, between natural marriage and sacramental marriage is the grace one receives in that association so that it may be done well vis a vis salvation.
September 12 at 11:59am · Like
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Jeff Neill It is my understanding People who are unable to have children are allowed sacramental marriage since they would be "open to children" even though it may not be physically possible.
September 12 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perhaps that's because the end of marriage is sanctification, not offspring, insofar as it is a sacramental marriage. (even if the proper end of offspring would be thwarted in this case, and the marriage would, according to the natural end, be lacking)
September 12 at 12:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yup.
So in one question would be in the "rearing and education" what does this mean; is it time based, direct action by parent or is indirect rearing and education sufficient?
September 12 at 12:18pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, I think marriage is unique among the sacraments because it is something prior to being part of the order of grace. The reason for making it a Sacrament seems less directly aimed at sanctification and more at making it easier for the couple to remain faithful (although, obviously, the latter is ordered to the former in some sense).
September 12 at 12:40pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Jeff, I think there are certain physical impediments which are also impediments to marriage.
September 12 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature."
September 12 at 12:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the "rearing and education" meanst that the family exists to bring children to self-sufficiency both according to bodily and soul.
September 12 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Impotence may nullify a marriage or does it nullify all marriages ipso facto? Asking for a friend.
September 12 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The only thing different between sacramental marriage and natural marriage is baptism.
September 12 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti True, Daniel. And a natural marriage can be licit with a dispensation!
September 12 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante BORING
September 12 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Totally agree Jehoshaphat Escalante. Let's talk about mucus viscosity or something with a little more action!
September 12 at 12:59pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I like the name change Jehoshaphat Escalante.
September 12 at 12:59pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Shit Catholics say: "Honey why are you handing me a thermometer?"
September 12 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman We could talk about the likely event of the Dodgers going to the World Series.
September 12 at 1:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and losing
September 12 at 1:11pm · Like
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Joel HF We still haven't touched on Agrarianism, vaccinations, the American founding, just to use my irenic list of topics from way up above.
Perhaps the last topic would be unhospitable, seeing as this is Peterson's wall and all.
September 12 at 1:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The American founding? Or whether destruction of the rule of law is ever licit?
September 12 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Or more generally: Whether one should ever follow Masons?
September 12 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF How did I phrase it waaaay up above? "Why the founding is based on evil enlightenment principles, or Guys, we totally used to sing songs that could be understood in some way as not contrary to the common good" --this is why Norton thought I was a wolf: I love to watch ship-wrecks from the shore.
September 12 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia distinguish between the "justness" of the American Revolution and the "unjustness" of the Civil War
September 12 at 1:24pm · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--yes, perhaps it is time to discuss the Masons. I hear they are everywhere and control everything. Masons ran Vatican II!!!1!!!1!
September 12 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia That was the Bavarian Illuminati
September 12 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Vatican II may actually be too controversial even for me. I may be a wolf, but I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd--to paraphrase a silly movie.
September 12 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Nothing to be said about vaccination except everybody get your damn vaccinations.
September 12 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF You'd think that, Samantha, but this is the internet.
September 12 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Everyone knows vaccinations cause autism.
September 12 at 1:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, vaguely crunch Catholic types especially, tend to get real squishy on the subject.
September 12 at 1:38pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And leprosy.
September 12 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF They were created by the Masons to impurify our precious bodily fluids.
September 12 at 1:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY
Dr. Strangelove - Precious Bodily Fluids
Mandrake and Ripper
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 1:40pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Vaccines cause gluten sensitivity.
September 12 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Which explains why wheat was eaten just fine for so many years, and then people started having problems with it
September 12 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia gluten sensitivity is BS.
September 12 at 1:43pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia tinfoil hats - a requirement for attending TAC or optional?
September 12 at 1:44pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF http://www.theatlantic.com/.../tin-foil-hats.../262998/
Tin Foil Hats Actually Make it Easier for the Government to Track Your Thoughts
Or so says "physics."
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MATT SONIAK
September 12 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no.... as part of dress code. Uncovered heads are immodest.
September 12 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Posting the "Related" links suggested by the Book of Faces
September 12 at 1:57pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
Kool & The Gang - Celebration
Music video by Kool & The Gang performing Celebration. (C) 1980 The Island Def Jam Music Group
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 1:57pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma http://www.mcsweeneys.net/.../the-canon-of-philosophy...
List: The Canon of Philosophy Student Karaoke Songs.
“Total Eclipse of Descartes” “Don’t You (Foucault About...
MCSWEENEYS.NET
September 12 at 1:57pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU
So Long Farewell
"So Long Farewell" from the 1965 film version of THE SOUND OF MUSIC
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Booty, I already posted the Karaoke. get with the TNET times.
September 12 at 1:58pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Don't know how Kool & the Gang relates, but Sound of Music makes sense.
September 12 at 1:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think Joshua and I were discussing the abomination that is musicals, and I think Daniel posted a Kool and the Gang video many hundreds (thousands?) of comments ago
September 12 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Facebook is very confused by TNET
September 12 at 2:04pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia TNET includes all of facebook - and more!
September 12 at 2:05pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris http://phys.org/news/2011-09-cosmic-thread-revealed.html
Cosmic thread that binds us revealed
(PhysOrg.com) -- Astronomers at The Australian National University have found evidence for the textile that forms...
PHYS.ORG
September 12 at 2:06pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict What is TNET's relationship to God?
September 12 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If all things are expressions of the Creator, what kind of an expression is TNET?
September 12 at 2:07pm · Like
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Frank Morris if any one consider moi a troll, frig em.
September 12 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris "If all things are expressions of the Creator, what kind of an expression is TNET?" metaphysical at best, Isak.
September 12 at 2:08pm · Like
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Frank Morris “A consequence of the Big Bang and the dominance of dark matter is that ordinary matter is driven, like foam on the crest of a wave, into vast interconnected sheets and filaments stretched over enormous cosmic voids – much like the structure of a kitchen sponge,” he said.
September 12 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris kind of like neurons.
September 12 at 2:10pm · Like
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Frank Morris for Michael Beitia Cosmic strings are originally very thin, but hyperdimensional objects, but when observed from low dimensional perspective, they may appear fuzzy. They exhibit Rayleigh-Plateau and Gregory-Laflamme instabilities.. The gravitational waves correspond the indeterministic CMBR noise (i.e. not harmonic waves) - but these fibers can behave like SOFAR channel in underwater and they could enable the spreading of weak harmonic ripples with superluminal speed at limited distance - at least in principle. Quantum states are delicate-or maybe not.
September 12 at 2:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have yet to see anything in my pop physics understanding that makes "multi-dimensional" object more than idle speculation.
September 12 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris consider cmbr waves...saints in heaven? saints relics as a bridge...
September 12 at 2:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just noise from a tape run in reverse.
September 12 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris noooooooooooooo. do you think comporting metaphysics and quantum physics is easy?
September 12 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia simple. The inherent quantum fuzziness in electron behavior means that the dryer (on the inside) is unseen and magnifies the quantum effects to the macro, which is why my socks disappear even though I know I put both in the dryer.
September 12 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It's like Schrodinger's cat, only with my socks
September 12 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris do the socks usually turn up?
September 12 at 2:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia never. they fall through a superluminal wormhole to the other side of the universe. that's what the "M" in M-theory stands for: "Where is my motherf*&king sock?"
September 12 at 2:32pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris bull, who is now equivocating?
September 12 at 2:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia okay, what does the M in M-theory stand for, then?
September 12 at 2:33pm · Like
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Frank Morris M for “membrane”.
September 12 at 2:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no no no My socks have no-local interaction with particles on the other side of the universe, and when something happens to them, poof! there goes my sock. It's Bell's theorem
September 12 at 2:36pm · Like
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Frank Morris Dualty The key tool to understanding this breakthrough is something “duality.” Two theories are “dual” to each other if they can be shown to be equivalent under a certain interchange. The simplest example of duality is reversing the role of electricity and magnetism in the equations discovered by James Clerk Maxwell of Cambridge University 130 years ago. These are the equations which govern the understanding of light, TV, X-rays, radar, dynamos, motors, transformers, even the Internet and computers.
September 12 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm familiar with electro-magnetism, and the standard model, etc. etc.
I just need a reason why I keep missing one sock. It's always a nice pair like argyles, or striped ones....
September 12 at 2:39pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris but they eventually turn up, right--they weren't lost.
September 12 at 2:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no they never do. I have a laundry basket that has tons of single socks in it.
September 12 at 2:40pm · Like
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Frank Morris wow.
September 12 at 2:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think the entangled particles met their anti-particles annihilating each other, and consequently, my sock
September 12 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I love just watching these conversations unfold. Like water lilies unfolding.
September 12 at 2:42pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia all is math #mathgnosis
September 12 at 2:42pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Water lilies of true gnosis and enlightenment floating on the muddy waters of earthly ignorance.
September 12 at 2:43pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Come recommend your favorite beers:
http://socraticum.com/t/beer-recommendations/82
September 12 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia now we're talking about the enlightenment again?
September 12 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris ha ha ha ha ha........i had a girl fiend once that had 40 different pairs of black socks, all a little different...it was really hard to match them...so rather than matching them, she would just buy new socks.....
September 12 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Socraticum doesn't work on my phone.
September 12 at 2:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I gave my recommendation
September 12 at 2:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, what exactly is the problem?
September 12 at 2:46pm · Like
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Frank Morris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USUpaatRyBM
Zeitraffer Seerose - Water Lily Time-Lapse
Zeitraffer einer sich öffnenden Seerose Timelapse of an opening waterlily
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 2:48pm · Like
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Frank Morris Time-lapse reveals to us a new perception of processes occurring every day. These slow movements in time can only be made visable by speeding up the process.
September 12 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF 504 error: gateway timeout
September 12 at 2:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland #vaccinegnosis
September 12 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I'm using a Google nexus, so it isn't an old phone
September 12 at 2:51pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland #vaccineherdthink
September 12 at 2:51pm · Like
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Joel HF Searching for the wth button
September 12 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland re: Apple watches and expensive gadgets. This guy forgot to read his 'Metaphysics'; he's rather confused about Time: http://www.vox.com/.../time-illusion-mctaggart-unreality
The big problem with the Apple Watch is that time is an illusion
The idea that time passes requires events to be in the...
VOX.COM
September 12 at 2:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland (I don't have as much time to post on TNET as before, so I just do what I can now and then to stir things up mildly and keep it going...)
September 12 at 3:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Anthony Crifasi Catherine, I seem to remember arguments at TAC about whether time exists if there's nobody to count the numbers of motions.
September 12 at 3:16pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer This is just an example of Vox generating click bait content. But time exists potentially if no one is present to count it.
September 12 at 3:23pm · Like
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John Boyer Plus the McTaggert argument hinges on some very questionable presuppositions, which the author presents as if this is the only way to view time. Change is nothing other than an event going from future to present to past, pace McTaggert. This assertion is questionable. He subscribes to an event ontology, which necessitates his description of change in this way. Second, to use the argument from retorsion, if time is an illusion because there is no change, we still experience change when we are deluded since we are actually deluded as we move along the C series. Thus change does exist in our mental states, therefore there is time.
September 12 at 3:27pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Haha, I clicked...
September 12 at 3:27pm · Like
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John Boyer This is why I hate sites like Vox. Guy reads one philosophy argument, decides it must be valid and sound, then throws up article which proclaims that because time is an illusion (something he merely asserts by another's argument rather than proving conclusively), Apple shouldn't sell watches. Well, that's not a problem for apple, but for all watchmakers. Except this is ridiculous. May Vox and its ilk die soon. Vox is BuzzFeed with a BA.
September 12 at 3:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well, I didn't know that more traditional speech about marriage was "outrageous". Seeing as the substance of what I said was in the Liguori I posted as well....did I deny an obligation to rear children? No. Not at all. Is rearing children an end of the use of marriage? No. It is not. Procreation is. Rearing is an obligation that flows upon that, but is not an end, as such, of the use of marriage. Heck you can rear children without continuing the use of marriage after procreation.
Yes we simplify things and speak of the ends of marriage as being procreation and education, and unity, and remedying concupiscence (though that third is wholly ignored by most)
That was not the sense I was talking about, but I was referring to the "essential" ends Liguori mentions. Perhaps I should use a different terminology. E.g., the intrinsic essential ends are monogamy and the indissoluble bond. These exist even without the use of marriage. I believe the 1917 code calls them properties.
Sadly Aquinas did not treat of this question as such. He does treat of the "goods of marriage" which is a broader term than ends, but he treats of ends of marriage itself here, in the Super Sententias. Note carefully what he says. He does not say the primary end is "the procreation and education"
Ad primum ergo dicendum, quod in prole non solum intelligitur procreatio prolis, sed etiam educatio ipsius, ad quam sicut ad finem ordinatur tota communicatio operum quae est inter virum et uxorem, inquantum sunt matrimonio juncti, quia patres naturaliter thesaurizant filiis, ut patet 2 Corinth. 12, et sic in prole, quasi in principali fine, alius quasi secundarius includitur.
To the first therefore it must be said, that in offspring, not only the procreation of offspring, but also their education is understood, to which, just as to an end, the entire sharing of works which are between man and wife, inasmuch as they are joined in marriage, is ordered, since fathers naturally lay up treasures for their sons, as is clear in 2 Cor. 12. and thus, in offspring, as if in a principal end, includes another as it were secondary end. (Super Sent., lib. 4 d. 31 q. 1 a. 2 ad 1)
In a real sense, while the education of children is demanded by procreation, and is included with it as a GOOD of marriage, it is not itself an end of the use of marriage. And since valid and licit intent to marry follows upon the intrinsic essential ends and includes the licit reasons for the use of marriage, whereas the education of children belongs to the good of marriage, being a product, not of its use, but as an end of the common life of man and wife resulting therefrom, the education of children should be distinguished from the procreation here. So that, even if, insofar as the "sharing of works", that is common life is weakened in polygyny, the education of children is also hampered, still polygyny does not go directly against the end here, as to its principal part.
September 12 at 3:29pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz To be clear, use of marriage= bo-doinky-doink
September 12 at 3:30pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer Bow chicka wow wow
September 12 at 3:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua, I'm not sure how your citation from Aquinas leads one to think that the upbringing of children is not an end of marriage? Also, isn't "being an end" transitive? If X is an end for Y and Y for Z, then X is an end for Z.
September 12 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Langley, re-read what I wrote....I didn't say it wasn't an end of marriage, I said the opposite of that.
September 12 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--how do you deal w/ the texts I cited--where he explicitly deals w/ goods of marriage AND w/ the ends of marriage--from the Supplement, which is gathered from Thomas's commentary on the Sentences (iirc).
September 12 at 3:39pm · Like
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Joel HF And, fwiw, Thomas does not seem to consider the cure of concupiscence an end of marriage per se. Perhaps there is a distinction b/w "end of marriage" and "end of the use of marriage"...
September 12 at 3:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill procreation doesn't require marriage... it is fairly common without it. Why have a long relationship bound in a marriage "thing" if all procreation takes is one night?
September 12 at 3:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill if not for rearing and education of children
September 12 at 3:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I said it wasn't an end of the USE of marriage, but followed, quasi secondarius, from procreation of offspring, and both are understood by in prole, a good of marriage
Joel HF I think we were quoting from the same place essentially
September 12 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Procreation is not the only end of marriage, and furthermore are natural (i.e. non-sacramental) marriages indissolvable?
September 12 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no
September 12 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia they're not
September 12 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill singles bars and alcohol end concupiscence... although the end is temporary
September 12 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--I do think that Q 65 of the supplement is where Thomas most directly deals w/ the ends of marriage. Here's the quote (I still have the cut and paste up, miraculously):
“Matrimonium ergo habet pro fine principali prolis procreationem et educationem: qui quidem finis competit homini secundum naturam sui generis: unde et aliis animalibus est communis.”
And further in the same article:
The secondary end--i.e. the one proper to man as man, and not just as animal--is “communicationem operum quae sunt necessaria in vita” (See Aristotle NE VIII 12).
September 12 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig ^^ Richard Nutley
September 12 at 3:46pm · Like
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Joel HF I defer to the knowledge of others who have studied moral theology. I would like to see what you make of the texts from Q 65 though, Joshua.
September 12 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Josh, missed the distinction between end of marriage and end of use of marriage.
September 12 at 3:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, I'm not sure I'll grant that the end of the use isn't education since the end of the use is instrumental relative to the ends of marriage and thus the latter still are ends of the use in some sense.
September 12 at 3:50pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes and no. Even the power of the pope to dissolve marriage bonds, in not consummated marriages and in disparity of cult marriages was strongly resisted by theologians until the 18th century. Precisely because of the emphasis on indissolubility makes this hard to justify
St. Thomas justifies the dissolution of the bond, when not consummated, through the taking of vows, by saying that entering religious life is drying to the world spiritually, and hence death separates. But once consummated, only bodily death suffices!
Now, divorce is forbidden even to purely natural marriages, ony the Church can grant divorce in those case, as a privilege for the faith. Maybe one could make a similar argument, that being baptised into Christ changes things? But then the controversial until recently Petrine privilege doesn't jive well...which is why it was resisted!
September 12 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig ^ again, Richard Nutley
September 12 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Doesn't St. Paul basically say, if your non-baptized pre-conversion spouse wants a divorce, grant it? Or am I misremembering. Anyway, Thomas implies that marriage as sacrament is what makes it truly indissolvable.
September 12 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Yes, that is the Pauline privilege. But it remains that divorce is forbidden even to natural marriages, save as a privilege of faith (Pauline privilege)
September 12 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman St. Paul allows it because Baptism is a real death.
September 12 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
Can. 1141 A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death.
Can. 1142 For a just cause, the Roman Pontiff can dissolve a non-consummated marriage between baptized persons or between a baptized party and a non-baptized party at the request of both parties or of one of them, even if the other party is unwilling.
Can. 1143 §1. A marriage entered into by two non-baptized persons is dissolved by means of the pauline privilege in favor of the faith of the party who has received baptism by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by the same party, provided that the non-baptized party departs.
§2. The non-baptized party is considered to depart if he or she does not wish to cohabit with the baptized party or to cohabit peacefully without aVront to the Creator unless the baptized party, after baptism was received, has given the other a just cause for departing.
September 12 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Just some authorities.
September 12 at 3:54pm · Like
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Joel HF Edward Langley, btw, read Cajetan's commentary on Ia Q 12 Art 1--w/r/t the dispute we were having WAAAY above. I'll note that the first thing Cajetan notes is that the article is dealing with whether "any created intellect" can know God and not with whether any "human intellect" can.
September 12 at 3:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, the original quote of yours I took exception to was confusing, if you truly were talking about the end of the *use* of marriage and not the end of marriage simply. I think discussing the end of marriage is more relevant to the issue of polygamy.
September 12 at 4:00pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer No discussion among TACers can avoid sex talk for very long.
September 12 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF So, a Roman who divorced and remarried and THEN converted--does he have to put his wife away?
September 12 at 3:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I do think there is some confusion in terminology here. Ends, goods, properties, are all used differently in different authors. Perhaps I should have avoided Liguori's manner of speaking....
September 12 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Seems rather harsh for the Gentile nations. Israelites have a special dispensation to divorce AND take multiple wives. Gentiles--one wife, no divorce! Good luck with that!
September 12 at 3:57pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Joshua Kenz No. My understanding is that the prohibition is of divine positive law, and was given by Jesus. Though it is a question what about before that with the Gentiles...Christ says Moses allowed it...which means it is after the Noahide covenant
September 12 at 3:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yeah, just convert to Judaism.... although an adult bris may be required.
September 12 at 3:59pm · Like
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Joel HF ^So the dispensation would be for "all peoples"? And Thomas understands the reason for the prohibition for Christians to be because marriage is a sign of Christ and his Church and Christ is one etc.
September 12 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz ???
I am not sure about whom the dispensation was for (both Jews and Gentiles?) But it is certain that after Christ no one, not Jews, pagans are Christians can take multiple wives or divorce (save the few odd cases, Pauline, Petrine, non consummatum, etc)
Is there a question about whether St. Thomas things polygamy is prohibited now to pagans/Jews? I am not sure when that was settled (Benedict XIV certainly thinks it as settled)....
September 12 at 4:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley If it's of divine positive law, Joshua, wouldn't it only bind the baptized to whom it was promulgated?
September 12 at 4:04pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF This discussion is all moot now, since the Archangel Maroni relieved us of that silly "1 wife at a time" requirement.
September 12 at 4:04pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz No, it binds everyone. That is why only the Church can grant divorce to anyone
September 12 at 4:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF There is no question that St. Thomas thinks that polygamy is contrary to natural law. And God of course could dispense it (assuming polygamy to be contrary in a way that it could be dispensed) for everyone, baptized or not. The question is whether Christ's new teaching on marriage apply to everyone or just the baptized. Also whether the original dispensation only applied to the Israelites.
September 12 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh yeah! Well Matt Walsh says monogamy is not natural!
Samantha Cohoe, you'll love this!
http://themattwalshblog.com/.../01/07/monogamy-is-unnatural/
Monogamy is unnatural - The Matt Walsh Blog
Monogamous marriages are unnatural. On this, I agree...
THEMATTWALSHBLOG.COM
September 12 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Who is Matt Walsh?
September 12 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman For the record, on the whole I think he is rather foolish.
September 12 at 4:07pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman A fool, Joel. Just another fool.
September 12 at 4:09pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill what do you mean who is Matt Walsh
September 12 at 4:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe uuuuuuugh Matt Walsh
September 12 at 4:08pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not reading it, but if he means not in accord with our fallen nature, then sure
September 12 at 4:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (I like Matt)
September 12 at 4:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, Jeff. I didn't mean to offend.
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill haha
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't get offended
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That sounds like a challenge...
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill bring it on!
September 12 at 4:09pm · Like
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Joel HF I mean I'd never heard of him. My finger is far from the pulse of Catholic blogdom. Thank heavens.
September 12 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe He's not all bad, just occasionally.
September 12 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Like he was SO WRONG about Noah.
September 12 at 4:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe SO. WRONG.
September 12 at 4:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And that's actually the only post of his I've ever read.
September 12 at 4:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Noah is a nice fable.
September 12 at 4:13pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland What did he say about Noah?
September 12 at 4:13pm · Like
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Joel HF Re concupiscence: Anyone here familiar with the occasion for Diogenes the Cynic's wish that he could relieve his hunger by rubbing his belly? Erik Bootsma
September 12 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Noah the movie? Or Noah the patriarch?
September 12 at 4:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Ohh, the movie.
September 12 at 4:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, the loud Catholic bloggers are generally just rash.
September 12 at 4:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the movie. Catherine-- he just made fun of it. It was kind of funny, but he wasn't at all fair to it.
September 12 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Well, especially on films, there's no accounting for taste...
September 12 at 4:15pm · Like
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Joel HF I once read patheos. <shudders>
September 12 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland chaque a son gout + accents.
September 12 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Bloggers are usually a waste of time. Sometimes a welcome waste of time.
September 12 at 4:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe TNET, on the other hand, is never a waste of time.
September 12 at 4:16pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland P.S. Yes, Joel , that story is vaguely familiar.
September 12 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict His Noah review was where I began to suspect he had no literary sensibilities. His piece on Robin Williams was where I realized he's an obnoxious turd and stopped promoting his writing.
September 12 at 4:16pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Oh no, never a waste of time...
September 12 at 4:16pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Joel, talk to Joseph Andrew Chaney.
September 12 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The only good blogs I've run across are:
http://thomism.wordpress.com
http://branemrys.blogspot.com/
http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/
September 12 at 4:17pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF With regard to the former, the Church has answered that...it binds everyone. That is why if I seek to marry an unbaptised woman, who "divorced" her unbaptised husband, I cannot. Because they are still married in the eyes of the Church. But if she is baptised and he will not live with her, that is different. But note only upon baprism does the Pauline privilege take. So before that, no divorce (cf. ASS 34, p. 550...and yes I mean ASS, not AAS...it is an older document) But of course this is merely baccking the assertion that it is so, not an explanation of how
With regard to the latter, that I do not know. St. Thomas' article implies it was only to the Jew wrt polygamy.
September 12 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I knew Matt Walsh was going to make an appearance here eventually.
September 12 at 4:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley As well as this: http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/
from time to time.
September 12 at 4:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Erik Bootsma--where do you think I first heard the story? #diogeneslives
September 12 at 4:18pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Chastek's been running that Thomism blog for over a decade solid.
September 12 at 4:18pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I don't mind Matt Walsh, as long as I'm aware he is being intentionally inflammatory and (perhaps unintentionally) imprecise, and sometimes intentionally "insensitive".
September 12 at 4:19pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, he was better longer ago. But he's still worthwhile.
September 12 at 4:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill but of course... that is how you grow readership
September 12 at 4:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill nobody likes reading a bore
September 12 at 4:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's a good point.
September 12 at 4:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley There are definitely some bloggers whose charm is their outrageousness.
September 12 at 4:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley While she might not be to everyone's taste, Ann Coulter is a prime example of this.
September 12 at 4:20pm · Like
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Joel HF Does Walsh have a particular angle? Like you know, Mark Shea has cornered the whole "Loud Catholic who is almost always obnoxiously wrong and is cringe-inducing even when right"?
September 12 at 4:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF
September 12 at 4:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is a good blog that everyone here should go to. http://www.danherrickphilosophy.com/
Dan Herrick Philosophy
Philosophy with a vision to bring you closer to God through daily articles and interactive conversation. Think as much as possible.
DANHERRICKPHILOSOPHY.COM
September 12 at 4:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Walsh I think manages to be right 80% of the time and nearly always imprudent in his manner of delivery.
September 12 at 4:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What is imprudent per se is prudent blogiciter
September 12 at 4:22pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe No one ever got followers on the internet by being measured and reasonable.
September 12 at 4:33pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF The death of google reader really meant I stopped following most blogs. Mostly sports blogs now.
September 12 at 4:24pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland The hard thing to see when one agrees with x blogger is how off-putting he is to everyone who disagrees with him.
September 12 at 4:25pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland And perhaps vice versa.
September 12 at 4:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joel, feedly is pretty good.
September 12 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Did Herrick overlap w/ Caleb at Princeton?
September 12 at 4:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yup. He and his wife are very close friends of ours.
September 12 at 4:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe He's also an amazing rapper.
September 12 at 4:28pm · Like
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Joel HF So no one ever answered this--to what extent, if any, is Calvin's doctrine on predestination different from Thomas's? Joshua Kenz; Samantha Cohoe; Jehoshaphat Escalante
September 12 at 4:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Double vs. single predestination.
September 12 at 4:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley (as I understand it)
September 12 at 4:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that double vs. single predestination stuff is just a technicality
September 12 at 4:32pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think so. It's the difference between saying that God permits an evil vs. saying that God wills an evil.
September 12 at 4:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- I don't know for sure, though I'm sure there's lots of overlap and they both pretty much lifted their views from Augustine
September 12 at 4:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Reading Thomas on the subject reminds me of the caricature (not in a bad sense) version of double predestination that I learnt as a kid, but with lots of distinctions thrown in and presented much more carefully. But I'm not sure I even understand Thomas's teaching, and heaven knows this is hardly a settled question in the church (either as to the actual doctrine or as to what St. Thomas thought).
September 12 at 4:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I looked at the Summa passages recently, Joel, and he's pretty careful to distinguish what God orders from what he permits (ordinat vs. permittit).
September 12 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Calvin's doctrine on predestination need not be read as all that different than Aquinas or Augustine.
This is a gross simplification, especially since TULIP is not always like by Calvinists to summarize their doctrine here, but take it for what it is worth
Total Depravity- Any actual Calvinist I have read does not understand this as I had been led to think they do. What I mean is, if one says, simpliciter, that every act before justification is a sin, sure that is wrong. But every act before justification is a sin, in a certain respect. This is explicit in Augustine and is in Aquinas too, who understands it to mean that no act can be rightly ordered to our due final end. Which is true.
Unconditional election- God elects some people for salvation, without regarding foreseen merits. If we understand by this complete predestination (that is both to grace and glory) that all Catholics agree that it is unconditional, it would be heretical semi-pelagianism to say otherwise. If understood as referring only to the election to glory, and not to grace, then some Molinists (not all) hold that this is conditional, but most theologians, historically, have held unconditional (Thomist, Congruists, Syncretists, Augustinians, Scotists). Consequently, excepting the late Fr. Most and his weird positions, all Catholics hold that positive reprobation (the decree predestining this person to hell) is based on foreseen demerits (as Augustine holds quite explicitly), but some Molinists hold that negative reprobation (the passing over and permitting to sin) is based on foreseen sin, but most, including Molinists, hold that negative reprobation is unconditional (oterwise circular...the permission to sin is given because of foreseen sin?).
If we understand double-predestination to mean God, from all eternity, predestines some to heaven and others to hell. Well that is Catholic doctrine, even if we came to use predestination to refer to election, and reprobation for the decree to damnation to avoid confusion. If we understand it to means complete predestination (both the end and the means thereto), then we only hold this as unconditional and predestined with election (as God is the cause not just of glory but of merits), but we deny it of reprobation (God decrees the sentence, He does not cause us to sin). Again, most Calvinists I have read would hold a similar distinction and would not make God a predestinator of evil.
Limited Atonement- If this is understood to mean that, in every sense, Christ died only for the elect, then we hold this as heretical. Similarly, in a Jansenist context, if it means Christ died only for the faithful (namely only for those that will obtain grace at some point, even if they should fall later), it is offensive to pious ears and savoring of heresy (those are the Church's words)
But if we understand it to mean that Christ's death is only effective for the elect, or the faithful in general, but sufficient for all, and we affirm the antecedent will to save all men, then this is in accord with the Roman Catechism explaining "for many". Further, Calvinists are divided on how to understand this. I myself have read Calvin make a similar distinction to Aquinas's antecedent and consequent wills. I believe "will of decree" and "prescriptive will" was the distinction.
Remember that Aquinas says, simply speaking God does NOT will the salvation of all, but only secundum quid. And this seems obviously true, in that God could predestine everyone to heaven regardless of your views on how that works, but does not.
Irresistible Grace- We must say that the will is free to resist even under the influence of efficacious grace, but what does that mean? By definition it will not resist under efficacious grace after all. The way it can resist is only the same as when I say "I am sitting, I could stand. But while I am sitting I cannot be standing"
From my understanding, some Calvinists present irresistible grace as a victorious delectation, which is Augustinianism. And this is held both in a corrupted form by Jansenists, and by Augustinians. One is condemned, the other approved. Approval is made on the condition that one does not hold it as something extrinsically necessitating the will. But the necessity is interior. Here, through an infallible moral motion of the will. Others I have heard explain it like Thomists, with the physical pre-motion of the will. Others do not think it wise to explain.
I have yet to meet a Calvinist that holds there is no freedom in the act. Whether the details of how this or that one holds the workings are compatible with Catholic doctrine, well that varies. But I think as a general doctrine, it need not be opposed
Perseverance of the Saints- The doctrine that one who is justified will not fall from that state. Here we clearly disagree. To Calvinists anyone predestined to grace is predestined to glory. We hold some come to grace, but fall and do not obtain glory.
September 12 at 5:39pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Jehoshaphat Escalante can correct me on any of the points about Calvinist doctrine. I know it is not always as monolithic as the caricature I learned,and I know there are many internet commenters that self-label Calvinist who fit the caricatures. But thus is my understanding of serious Calvinist theology.
September 12 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Yes Joshua thats basically right
September 12 at 5:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia tl;dr
September 12 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram That's funny because I totally read and it was awesome
September 12 at 5:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz For Michael Beitia
Calvinists don't all agree on everything, but by and large what they hold on predestination is not contrary to what Catholics may hold, with the exception of the belief that those who come to grace do not fall away from grace (if predestined to grace you are predestined to glory)
Was that short enough?
September 12 at 6:01pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill It could have been shorter.
September 12 at 6:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or say something radical, which would inspire a reader to pay attention.
September 12 at 6:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joshua: I did read it, it was my way of saying "well put, I have nothing of value to add" and still get notifications when the subject changes to something I more interest in.
September 12 at 6:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Wish me luck y'all - featuring my poetry tonight in front of real live poets. Cheers! I will compose an ode to TNET if all goes well.
September 12 at 6:19pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia post video somewhere
September 12 at 6:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Bonne chance!
September 12 at 6:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I will try to have someone with a magic phone capture a poem or two
September 12 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris write a poem on the magic phone.
September 12 at 6:45pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Friiiiiiiiiiday!!!
http://youtu.be/r5WgYoRCs2U
The Dubliners & the Pogues - Whiskey in the jar
From their collaboration in 1987
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 6:51pm · Like · 4
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Frank Morris good version....Metallica, Thin Lizzy, The Dead, all the real irish versions....never gets old.
September 12 at 6:54pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's good craic.
September 12 at 6:54pm · Like
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Frank Morris maybe here this in church one day at midnight mass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFn9T1ge2g
September 12 at 6:55pm · Like
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Frank Morris this too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au30c9ZMIPg
The Pogues With The Dubliners
the pogues perform the irish rover with the dubliners RIP RONNIE DREW
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 6:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell And this:
http://youtu.be/gMMgIqW9vso
Dirty old town - The Pogues
Brilliant song
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 6:57pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris the barque of ireland...a song for Ian Paisley
September 12 at 6:57pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm a bit torn about Paisley. What he did in his last few years to bring about the peace was noble ... but man, what a life. May God forgive him.
September 12 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris on bbc today, he said in an old interview that he had a brush with death-and it focused his thinking...a hard man...400 years of orange men in one voice...there will never be another Reverend Ian Paisley.
September 12 at 7:01pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia just as long as you stick to "dirty old town" and not the sick bed of Cuchulainn.
September 12 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris i never liked dirty old town....but, It was Christmas Eve, in the drunk tank-and old man said to me, not see another one-than he sang a song- ...The Rare Old Mountain Dew
I turned my face away
And dreamed about you
September 12 at 7:11pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEe7_b6NHtA
The Pogues - The Rocky Road To Dublin
Previously unreleased
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris if the barque of peter wasn't divine, the wee boys would have kicked the bottom out of it.
September 12 at 7:14pm · Like
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Frank Morris maybe better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCoUj3kSwrc
The dropkick murphys- Rocky road to dublin
uber irish rock song
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKkMKbocjOA
UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!
Lemongrab - Unacceptable Back and Forth
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 7:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Play whatever you want, Jeff: the thread is wide open ...
September 12 at 7:26pm · Like
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Frank Morris cmon Jeff...Ian Paisley only gets to die once....and there is some dancing in some sectors around.
September 12 at 7:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's times like these when I'm proud to say: I have zero Irish blood in me. (JOKE! I know how sensitive you Irish types are)
September 12 at 7:50pm · Like · 4
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Frank Morris basques don't understand.
September 12 at 7:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's a willful ignorance, Frank
September 12 at 7:59pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell ETA or IRA?
September 12 at 8:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ETA all day
September 12 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the Guggenheim in Bilbao is an abomination
September 12 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia should be blown up on aesthetic principle
September 12 at 8:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell lol
September 12 at 8:01pm · Like
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Frank Morris will call an uncle.
September 12 at 8:01pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I actually like Richard Serra's work, but 'de gustibus ...'
September 12 at 8:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia disagree?:
http://www.apite.eu/.../_migr.../pics/guggenheim4744x300.png
APITE.EU
September 12 at 8:02pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Did you hear the one about the IRA foot soldier who went to confession?
September 12 at 8:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, I haven't
September 12 at 8:03pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell He confessed, saying "Bless me Father for I have sinned, I blew up the railway tracks last week."
September 12 at 8:03pm · Like
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Frank Morris kicked out of the church.
September 12 at 8:03pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell And so the priest says: "Okay, I will absolve you, but for your pennance I want you to do the Stations.
September 12 at 8:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell
September 12 at 8:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I was talking about the building itself
September 12 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Frank Gehry, I believe
September 12 at 8:05pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yes, it looks like that other one of his, in downtown L.A.
September 12 at 8:05pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The Walt Disney Concert Hall.
September 12 at 8:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Better than the "massive" art piece.
September 12 at 8:08pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia here's the opera:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Frank_Gehry
List of works by Frank Gehry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This list of works by Frank Gehry categorizes the work of...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 12 at 8:10pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia crap from top to bottom
September 12 at 8:09pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://upload.wikimedia.org/.../Image-Disney_Concert_Hall...
UPLOAD.WIKIMEDIA.ORG
September 12 at 8:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think it is to deflect lasers when the aliens finally attack
September 12 at 8:09pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's a Transformer sleeping.
September 12 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill http://www.latimes.com/.../la-levitated-mass-photo...
'Levitated Mass' opens at LACMA
With iPhones and cameras out, crowds virtually stampeded the white concrete path to view Michael Heizer's...
LATIMES.COM|BY LOS ANGELES TIMES
September 12 at 8:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia except instead of sleeping in the shape of a car or truck, it is an inside out fun house
September 12 at 8:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I that a big rock, Jeffie?
September 12 at 8:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia on two walls?
September 12 at 8:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill A big rock on a ditch.... They shut down the freeway system to move it on a huge truck.
September 12 at 8:15pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland So close to 18,000. I don't have anything controversial to say.
September 12 at 8:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the sculpture is the Jane Austen of sculpture
September 12 at 8:18pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^evil.
September 12 at 8:18pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I was able to get verification that the church's definition of conception is not at implantation.
September 12 at 8:23pm · Edited · Like
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Liz Neill Sperm, meet egg.
September 12 at 8:33pm · Like
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Matthew Reiser Catherine Ryland Bring up Euclid's Fifth Postulate just for giggles?
September 12 at 8:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Dirty Old Town is a fantastic song.
September 12 at 8:39pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Machiavelli was far before his time. The prince is a great book on leadership and applies incredibly well infernal business
September 12 at 9:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET need to take the weekend off
September 12 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew Reiser Matthew J. Peterson Don't say you didn't ask for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahvSgFHzJIc
Loverboy- Working For The Weekend
Loverboy- Working For The Weekend Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 12 at 9:21pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET 20000
September 15 at 2:43pm · Like · 7
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's back, Samantha; just when I thought I was going to get some writing done.
September 15 at 2:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Did we do this, Daniel? Others were whining, too, but from the timing it appears that Matthew heeded our sadness in particular.
September 15 at 2:46pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think we're his favorites.
September 15 at 2:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or else he hates your writing.
September 15 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Well, I am writing about illumination theory in the later middle ages ...
September 15 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Somebody tag Isak, I want to know how his poetry reading went.
September 15 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe also,http://www.themorgan.org/.../divine-jane-reflections-austen
The Divine Jane: Reflections on Austen | Video | The Morgan Library & Museum
Watch more videos:
THEMORGAN.ORG
September 15 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew McGuire You guys have really slowed down. I was expecting exponential growth.
September 15 at 3:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson keeps shutting us down.
September 15 at 3:03pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak - we're up
September 15 at 3:03pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell #Buzzkill
September 15 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Do you think Matthew was getting complaints? I take the new instruction on blocking TNET to be evidence of this thesis.
September 15 at 3:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beats me? I just want all these super smart Aristotelian-Thomist types to explain to me quantum mechanics using only matter and form. That should be good for a couple hundred comments, and laughs.
September 15 at 3:06pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I think you have to phrase your challenge a little more specifically if you want it to take off.
September 15 at 3:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia FACT: Aristotle's physics are out-dated, and don't take into account the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing nature.
FACT: matter and form only describe notional or human made divisions and not nature (unless the division is tautological)
September 15 at 3:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Handwaving ... Heisenberg ... handwaving ... potency ... handwaving ... indeterminate ... handwaving ... and fin. How's that Michael Beitia?
September 15 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia close.
September 15 at 3:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia pay no attention to the man behind the Mckeon
September 15 at 3:10pm · Like
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Joel HF Not enough of us super-smart hylomorphic types (alright, that doesn't really describe me) know enough about QM to really say much at all.
September 15 at 3:12pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think Caleb might. I'll ask him at dinner and get back to you.
September 15 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia maybe everyone should go home and read their Copenhagen Interpretation.
September 15 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But that hasn't stopped us/them from writing about relativity or hell even classical mechanics, now has it?
September 15 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ahh, dinner table #gnosis.
September 15 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Is everybody impressed that Cornel West thinks Jane Austen is all about freedom?
September 15 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Cornel West is so cool.
September 15 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia If Austen is about freedom I'd rather be a natural slave (as was accused earlier....)
Freedom.... pshaw.... freedom to be banal
September 15 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Cornel West is disappointed in you, Michael.
September 15 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia If eliciting disappointment was marketable, I wouldn't be at "work" right now
September 15 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/.../CornelWest.jpg
THEOCCIDENTALOBSERVER.NET
September 15 at 3:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's Cornel West's disappointed face.
September 15 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I hope you feel chastened.
September 15 at 3:25pm · Like
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Sean Robertson So Scottish Independence. For or against?
September 15 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nope. I feel empowered
September 15 at 3:26pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Or is that too relevant a topic to be discussed amongst TAC alum?
September 15 at 3:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, if Groundskeeper Willie is for it....
September 15 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm against it for reasons of historical aestheticism.
September 15 at 3:29pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Explain.
September 15 at 3:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I love Brother West. Here he is in a cab talking about Plato et al.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfD3X3f5C_w
Examined Life - Cornel West
Cornel West excerpts from Examined Life, a 2008 documentary film directed by Astra Taylor. The film...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 15 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell And I'm in favor of Scottish Independence.
September 15 at 3:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is not a deeply thought out position. I think it's pleasing the way the line of succession joined up both nations in James I and VI. Great Britain is awesome and did lots of awesome things and it would be sad if it went out of existence.
September 15 at 3:33pm · Like
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Joel HF This will all be moot when they bring back the Stuarts, rightful kings of Scotland *and* England.
September 15 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Is there still a Stuart claimant kicking around somewhere hoping the Jacobites take control of Scottish parliament?
September 15 at 3:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I love this thread.
September 15 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia English hegemony has been destructive in several parts of the world. Time to end it
September 15 at 3:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Franz, Duke of Bavaria, is the current head of the Stuart household, I think.
September 15 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's been destructive *and* awesome. In different respects.
September 15 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, so does Franz have a real shot at taking the Scottish throne if independence happens? If so, I reverse my position
September 15 at 3:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Sadly for us Jacobites, none since the cardinal king Henry IX have actually claimed their rightful throne. Luckily, the divine right of kings needs the consent of neither the governed nor governor.
September 15 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF (I made up that last bit, I think even the divine right of kings recognizes abdication. But we do have the precedent of forcibly making men bishops and even popes, so ....)
September 15 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think the current idea is that the Queen would still be monarch over Scotland.
September 15 at 3:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia divine right of kings is mythological
September 15 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Kinda like Canada.
September 15 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 'Merica's back 40, right?
September 15 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So Scotland would still be in the Commonwealth? Laaaaaame.
September 15 at 3:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, the divine right thing was a modern development.
September 15 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That is not how to claim Independence, guys.
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sort of grew up side by side with the myth of "nation state"
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--we already established that the Stuarts are the rightful kings. Also, Michael Beitia, I suspect you of harboring modernist enlightenment principles!
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, still in the commonwealth, just poorer and in a worse position all around.
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia suspect away, I'm a card-carrying anarchist
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But "free."
September 15 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Even King David derived is right to rule from the consent of the people of Israel.
September 15 at 3:42pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Anarchists carry cards? Kind of wrecks the spirit of the thing, doesn't it?
September 15 at 3:42pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman If anyone had a divine right to rule it was David.
September 15 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which species of anarchism are you talking about? Bakunin? Kropotkin? Proudhon?
September 15 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I think to become independent from England and not be part of the Commonwealth you have to kill a lot of people.
September 15 at 3:44pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm a left-authoritarian type of guy: I can't keep track of all your divisions. It's worse than protestantism.
September 15 at 3:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia bwahahaha ...... nothing's worse than Protestantism
September 15 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe except popery.
September 15 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF King David derived his right to rule from the consent of the people?
September 15 at 3:46pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell On that libertarian bar-graph thingy, I always come out way to the left and slightly into the authoritarian quadrant.
September 15 at 3:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not on the division thing, though. You've got us beat, there.
September 15 at 3:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Libertarians suck
September 15 at 3:47pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell What about potpourri?
September 15 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia interesting, I always come out way to the left and not authoritarian. (unless they ask about social issues like pornography, then I float more toward authoritarian)
September 15 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Libertarians?
Ayn Rand as the natural successor and fulfillment of Aristotle: GO!
September 15 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell Strong words on Scotland.
September 15 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Michael, re QM, Aristotle invented it and it took until Heisenberg et al for scientists to get the memo.
September 15 at 4:07pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris exactly Edward. QM/QP and Metaphysics. The Thread/SuperStringTheory---now the telos must be optimization and control, for the common good. The Noble Truths to counter balance the Noble Lies.
September 15 at 4:42pm · Like
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Frank Morris but what is the means to the telos? what is the means?
September 15 at 4:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ha! next you'll tell me that sub-atomic particles are "prime matter" or have incomplete substantial form.....
September 15 at 4:44pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris yes, that would be completely crackers.
September 15 at 4:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia substantial form is a noble lie
September 15 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris prove it.
September 15 at 4:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Kinda like calling an electron either a wave or a particle
September 15 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia not either. wave and particle. Copenhagen? where are you?
September 15 at 4:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley When waves and particles are just models of experimental effects.
September 15 at 4:45pm · Like
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Frank Morris yeah, that would be non sense
September 15 at 4:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, waves are real.
September 15 at 4:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley I was referring to the way physics is taught.
September 15 at 4:47pm · Like
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Frank Morris Ed, you're the metaphysical guru, and I'm just a humble baby sitter--but did old Aristotle, invent QM, or somehow observe it?
September 15 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia baby sitter? I'm just a midwife
September 15 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Frank, that was inflammatory hyperbole. But Heisenberg did tell us to think about QM probability as Aristotle's potentia.
September 15 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Frank Morris sneaky...where is that cat?
September 15 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris the threads are delicate-yet resilient.
September 15 at 4:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley And Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is roughly what one would expect to find if the material parts of substances had less being than complete substances.
September 15 at 4:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley (i.e. since the less actual is less determinate)
September 15 at 4:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia You're quoting Heisenberg out of context
September 15 at 4:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia he follows up the potentia, by saying
"Modern physics is of course not satisfied with only qualitative description of the fundamental structure of matter; it must try on the basis of careful experimental investigations to get a mathematical formulation of those natural laws that determine the "forms" of matter...."
I'm home next to my book case now
September 15 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't see how that nullifies my claim, though: it more indicates to me that he has the relation between the "qualitative" and the "quantitative" wrong.
September 15 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yeah, read the text, Edward! *best seminar voice*
September 15 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and Daniel, re: Scotland, I'm a supporter of every seccession.
September 15 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I suppose our observation, which causes waveform collapse, gives the particle its substantial form.... or not...
September 15 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Frank Morris but what if the quality and quantity keeps shifting the more and more closely one observes?
September 15 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Frank Morris wow mb-that was pretty fast.
September 15 at 4:59pm · Like
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Frank Morris now need to comport laws of physics with moral law and praxis.
September 15 at 5:02pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict The reading really could not have gone any better, folks - thanks for the support. Unfortunately I don't think there is any video but maybe that will be an upcoming project.
September 15 at 5:13pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Also - TNET 20000!!! Onward!! Once more into the breach, and fill the walls with our English dead!
September 15 at 5:13pm · Like · 3
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Frank Morris this hit 13 minutes ago...http://www.nytimes.com/.../a-discoverer-as-elusive-as-his...
A Pioneer as Elusive as His Particle
The Nobel laureate Peter Higgs, 85, whose public appearances have been as rare and fleeting as the...
NYTIMES.COM|BY DENNIS OVERBYE
September 15 at 5:14pm · Like
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Frank Morris Dying was nothing and he had no picture of it nor fear of it in his mind. But living was a field of grain blowing in the wind on the side of a hill. Living was a hawk in the sky. Living was an earthen jar of water in the dust of the threshing with the grain flailed out and the chaff blowing. Living was a horse between your legs and a carbine under one leg and a hill and a valley and a stream with trees along it and the far side of the valley and the hills beyond.”
September 15 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris this is fun. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01124a.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Actus Et Potentia
A technical expression in scholastic phraseology used to translate Aristotle's energeia or entelecheia, and dynamis
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 15 at 5:30pm · Like
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Matthew Reiser Michael Beitia Silly. Everyone knows that prime matter is tofu. Berquist said so.
September 15 at 5:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe On another subject, I just found out that it's common practice for Catholic parishes to charge per child for Sunday school. What the what??
September 15 at 6:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Charge? charge what?
September 15 at 6:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Money!
September 15 at 6:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no. we have catechism once a week (Tuesday nights) and they provide the book
September 15 at 6:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Glad to hear the practice isn't universal, but several catholic ladies i know confirmed the practice in their parish
September 15 at 6:21pm · Like
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Frank Morris what people pay into, they commit to...I have no problem with a small fee to teach the children the faith. My grand parents took their gold wedding rings and donated them to the church for the chalices....commitment is commitment, and buy in helps the organization.
September 15 at 6:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hmm Ed was saying something funny about QM, and then he went away....
September 15 at 7:30pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You could use the same argument to support charging admittance for mass, Frank. In evangelical churches, Sunday school is a part of children's ministry. You don't charge people to be ministered to.
September 15 at 8:08pm · Like
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Frank Morris mass is different. the Eucharist is a common good.
September 15 at 8:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe so is teaching about Jesus
September 15 at 8:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe the gospel is a common good
September 15 at 8:10pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris yes, and the little children are brought away from the mass, and taught the gospel...if the parents went to church and brought the kids...problem solved.
September 15 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris but, now--attendance dropping....so it goes.
September 15 at 8:11pm · Like
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Frank Morris i liked the Actus Et Potentia stuff...thank you TNET for introducing it to moi.
September 15 at 8:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I get the impression that it's pretty hard to be a family with little kids in the Catholic Church. No nursery, not a lot of children's programs generally, and then there are all the people in mass who expect all children to sit still and quiet through the whole service.
September 15 at 8:15pm · Like
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Frank Morris i like it when the priest calls the fussing of children the voice of angels...
September 15 at 8:17pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond A crying child is a wonderful excuse to avoid a bad homily . . .
September 15 at 8:22pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe don't get me started on bad homilies
September 15 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris and a a bad homily is a wonderful opportunity to express humility and stay there.
September 15 at 8:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I am rightly rebuked for my lack of humility. I guess I will have to stop pinching my children to get them to cry when I want to escape a deadly homily.
September 15 at 8:41pm · Like · 9
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Joel HF There are Catholic churches with Sunday schools?
September 15 at 8:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I was told by a priest once that the crying of infants is how we sound to God. small consolation as my 4th screamed incessantly for the first two years of his life.......
September 15 at 9:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and Samantha, it's not a service, it's Mass
September 15 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Frank Morris mass and energia...oh yeah.
September 15 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia eternal return...
September 15 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Frank Morris at every moment on earth....that's the time thing
September 15 at 9:09pm · Edited · Like
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Frank Morris "we shall harness for God the energies of love. And then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire." teillard chardin
September 15 at 9:12pm · Like
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Frank Morris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAFH2_3o-oo
White Lion - When the Children Cry [HD]
White Lion - When the Children Cry (Official Music Video)
YOUTUBE.COM
September 15 at 9:13pm · Like
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Frank Morris little chiiild, dry your crying eyes-how can i explain.........hoooooooo, that's bad.
September 15 at 9:14pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia frankly, I find the idea of "sunday school" or "children's programs" to be pandering. I hate pandering
September 15 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh please. What's pandering about teaching children about Jesus? Is it pandering to support families attempting to bring up their children in the faith?
September 15 at 9:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I know y'all don't call it a service, but I'd already used "mass" in the sentence. Anyway, isn't service sort of a generic term?
September 15 at 9:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia separating and talking down to them is not the same as supporting or teaching
September 15 at 9:23pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Protestants.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXrEPNvRO8
Norman Greenbaum - Spirit in the Sky (PSK Remastered)
v.2 Thanks for the 1,463 likes people (11/18/13) (New)...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 15 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe apparently you had a bad experience with Sunday school somewhere along the line. Mine have been good, especially the ones my kids are involved with.
September 15 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Sam Rocha - this is what the youth mass at Stuebenville was like, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXrEPNvRO8
Norman Greenbaum - Spirit in the Sky (PSK Remastered)
v.2 Thanks for the 1,463 likes people (11/18/13) (New)...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 15 at 9:26pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Psychedelic gospel rock, man. Pure sixties. A Jewish rocker singing about Jesus. Dig it.
September 15 at 9:36pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Samantha - I've been to pretty much every church imaginable. Raised as an atheist, but grew up in Mormon country.
As to my thoughts on pandering, I have four children that have made first communions, and have been through catechism (independent of Mass) with each of them.
September 15 at 9:32pm · Like
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Adam Fuller I don't have anything to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to provide the 18,016th comment.
September 15 at 9:34pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, I didn't mean to make condescending assumptions or anything. I just don't see why you would say Sunday school is "talking down" to kids if you hadn't had a bad experience. I've been in just about every kind of church too. Sunday school can be bad if its done badly, but that's a bug, not a feature.
September 15 at 9:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I disagree, but for obvious reasons. I think Sunday should be the family all together. Separation is never good, IMHO. However, I can see how it would appeal to parents
September 15 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But there is Sunday school and there's Sunday school. And there's bad homilies and there're homilies that are an occasion of sin for which taking out crying babies is a remedy.
September 15 at 10:51pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia but seriously, what happened to physics contra Aristoilet, adn #mathgnoisi!!? we have been derailed
September 15 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Okay, mine makes 18,020.
September 15 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Never heard Aristoilet before.
September 15 at 10:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict May I submit this as another of TNET's many themes? "The road goes on forever and the party never ends."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj6HfWp-eh0
The Highwaymen - The Road Goes On Forever
From the album The Road Goes On Forever (10th...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 15 at 10:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia like Aristotle, only all his arguments are crap
September 15 at 10:34pm · Like · 4
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John FitzGerald Does he make any sounds when you kick him, or does he just gurgle?
September 15 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer Yeah, things are looking up.
September 15 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Phew. Just submitted 2 proposals to the Kalamazoo Medieval Congress at the midnight hour.
September 16 at 12:33am · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia So I've got no takers in a defense of Aristotle's physics?
How about a question: does a rock have a substantial form? Or do all the diverse parts of the rocks have substantial forms, and the whole is an accidental unity? Does it really make sense to talk about substantial forms outside of living things?
September 16 at 8:29am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I would take you up but my ignorance has been exposed too many times already. Good questions but physics is filed in my memory archives under Lethe.
September 16 at 8:53am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia what is the substantial form of a cat? That which makes a cat to be a cat. the particular instantiation of catness. The whatness of the stufficity whereby one cats a cat.
September 16 at 9:07am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia crap. I forgot "thinghood"
September 16 at 9:13am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger An essentially hypocritical whatness or a cosmetically clean and pure animal that preens continually and licks the unlickable to have the most spotless anus.
September 16 at 9:38am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger We have had some 12 cats in the last year. Distinguishing attributes and properties from their quiddity is my science.
September 16 at 9:35am · Like
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John Ruplinger The substantial forms of inanimate things are weak yet still the principle of unity. In the case of animate things they are stronger but naming is never as precise as we would want. It is but straw in the end and yet invaluable straw that prevents absurdities. Without them the world is unintelligible and the atomists and nominalists do not escape the problem either; they betray their reliance in ordinary speech.
September 16 at 9:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia how is it not tautological?
September 16 at 9:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill When it falls away from the form, it is less than what it was supposed to be.
Standing cat is not cat, but it looks like one at times.
September 16 at 10:16am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia it lacks the catness of caticity?
September 16 at 10:24am · Like
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Jeff Neill Less catastic due to uncatly behavior
September 16 at 10:58am · Like
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Michael Beitia Catastrophic catness admits of cat-tastic degree? Schrodinger may have something to say about that
September 16 at 11:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill Or not
September 16 at 11:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia Schrodinger is dead..... or is he?
September 16 at 11:24am · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma I can has or can not has?
September 16 at 12:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Forget medieval logic. All hail "thought" "experiment". #mathgnosis
September 16 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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David Upham I shall never depart from this thread.
September 16 at 12:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia These are serious questions (originally) John, I don't see how Aristotle's physics means anything.
September 16 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia If all we mean by "substantial form" is what it is to be what it is, I don't see how anything can be deduced or learned from this tautology
September 16 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree that your questions are serious but I am really too illiterate to answer. I have similar concerns though about modern physics: mathematical formulae seem to hide more than they reveal and veer off into the land of fantasy and absurdity: and that is an age old criticism of physics: give them time and they refute themselves. But thanks to you I am now wondering what the whatness of everything is. Barfield's "Saving the Appearances" is a corrective for seeing only invisible atoms, but is not demonstrative proof. I haven't read the physics in too long but the intelligibility of things requires a doctrine of forms. The alternatives lead to absurdities.
September 16 at 1:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Well, the first question is: can you really explain change without recourse to form and matter?
September 16 at 1:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever has any other value than as it may be fitted for the attainment of this object. Were the plan of the convention adverse to the public happiness, my voice would be, Reject the plan. Were the Union itself inconsistent with the public happiness, it would be, Abolish the Union. In like manner, as far as the sovereignty of the States cannot be reconciled to the happiness of the people, the voice of every good citizen must be, Let the former be sacrificed to the latter
September 16 at 1:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And "catness" is not the same as "the substantial form of cat" since "catness" includes matter disposed to receive such a form.
September 16 at 1:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Edward, yes. yes I can
September 16 at 1:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Matthew, so you're an anarchist too?
September 16 at 1:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "substantial form of cat" has only notional existence, because it is not separable from cat
September 16 at 1:30pm · Like
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Max Summe Cat = "fur + tail" That is the cat test. Does it have fur? Does it have a tail? Then it must be a cat.
September 16 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--szrOHtR6U
VeggieTales: Monkey Silly Song
Silly Song from Big Idea, the makers of VeggieTales. This song can be seen on the DVD entitled, "The Wonderful...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 16 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://dims.vetstreet.com/.../thum.../645x380/quality/90/...
DIMS.VETSTREET.COM
September 16 at 1:33pm · Like
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Max Summe ^^^ not a cat
September 16 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, it's an ape
September 16 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But does the notional participate in a (non analogous) way?
September 16 at 1:34pm · Like
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Max Summe Here is a cat http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/10d-17/vervet-monkey.jpg
MCCULLAGH.ORG
September 16 at 1:34pm · Like
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Max Summe Note both the fur and the tail.
September 16 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, it's a monkey
September 16 at 1:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If I rearrange the dna sequence of a chicken I get a small dinosaur. Is it a toothed chicken with scales, or what? how does substantial form explain anything more than simply a rearrangement of parts?
September 16 at 1:43pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Samantha started reading Gilead yesterday. Didn't realize it was set in Iowa, the tone is very Iowan. Congregationalist are a rural minority around here too, afaik. Very promising!
September 16 at 1:47pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger It explains the principle of a thing's unicity and intelligibility.
September 16 at 1:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Did you really create a chickosaurus?
September 16 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BTW: "WHERE ALL THE 'RISTOTHOMISTS AT?!"
September 16 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin It takes too long to type anything with one hand, so I just don't bother.
September 16 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill https://www.londontheatredirect.com/.../CatsToMakeWestEnd...
LONDONTHEATREDIRECT.COM
September 16 at 1:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Abandon forms and down down the slick slope to militant magisterial nominalist fideism. . . . aka PB/SW. RIP
September 16 at 2:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Matter without form is just algae
September 16 at 2:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger not even: blocks, stones, worse than senseless things . . if that. And even the stone ...
September 16 at 2:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there's no matter without form. they are inseparable. (one might extend this to say simply: there's no matter and form.....)
September 16 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think 'ristothomists duck the question because matter/form notional distinction can't explain modern science. It works well as a pre-scientific understanding, but get Ockhamized in the end
September 16 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger disagree. But I don't have the comprehensive theory for everything perfected. A couple stones to polish.
September 16 at 2:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger As things increase in complexity the need for a principle of unicity is more apparent. But things like mud and stone and atoms appear to have almost no form at all. Rather they are matter to be ordered and stuff to be taken up by beings of higher form. Modern science is at loss to explain the ordering and unifying principle: it would be tidier if the question didn't exist.
September 16 at 2:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ack biology is just applied chemistry, chemistry is just applied physics, and physics is just applied mathematics.
unicity is meaningless at the most basic level. (a pile of stones has no form, but each of the constituents must, right?) I suppose the question of modern science pushes the level of unicity to another level. Are atoms fundamental? yes and no. are the constituents of atoms (protons, neutrons, electrons) fundamental? yes and no. where is the unicity? All electrons are the same
September 16 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger So DNA on the cellular level is the unifying and ordering principle of the oak?
September 16 at 3:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger All the individual cells just tap into the world spirit or sumfin', and voila, they get on the same page without any need for commitees to assign and oversee the formation and proper alignment of xylum?
September 16 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia biology is messy. But formality makes more sense with living things. but isn't there a sort of mathematical unity that is given to something by virtue of structure on the DNA level?
September 16 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger mathematics idolatry still. Just smash it Michael.
September 16 at 3:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No. I see problems with the substantial form but I will stick with it until the next best thing. I can't answer your objections but it gets messy as you acknowledge without it.
September 16 at 3:49pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Beitia has already seen this, but I'm adding it to the thread because I know there are other fans of Darnielle / Mountain Goats out there. (Sam Rocha maybe?)
http://electricliterature.com/interview-john-darnielle.../
INTERVIEW: John Darnielle, author of Wolf in White Van
Nearly every song on John Darnielle’s fourteen albums...
ELECTRICLITERATURE.COM
September 16 at 4:05pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I'm a big fan, but his politics are just so terrible.
September 16 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't know about his politics, but don't tell me. I don't want to spoil the music.
September 16 at 4:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell
September 16 at 4:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Don't look up live shows from the last, oh, 3 years or so.
September 16 at 4:32pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I saw him play as a duo with his bassist in Detroit in 2013. He didn't say much between songs. It was a great set. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue about it -- I usually don't pay any attention to a musician's politics unless it's an integral part of his/her music (e.g., Billy Bragg).
September 16 at 4:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I second Joel, it will spoil something....
September 16 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia new topic: why do musicians/actors/athletes think we care about their political opinions?
September 16 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger because we do. Why is that?
September 16 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Maybe we should ask them about the substantial form of a pile of rocks.
September 16 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia most actors are a pile of rocks (between the ears)
September 16 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Their co-formality may give them special #gnosis
September 16 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia rocks don't have substantial form
September 16 at 5:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #rockgnosis [the cure for hyperdulia of math]
September 16 at 5:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Matthew J. Peterson: I fear that it may be necessary one day, (if it isn't already necessary today,) to abolish the Union for the preservation of the public good.
September 16 at 6:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I have a question for the denizens of TNET. What exactly was the manna in the desert? The Israelites jokingly called it "what," but what did they call it when they weren't joking?
September 16 at 6:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict *gnosis gnosis gnosis*
September 16 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger sustenative rock bread material
September 16 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- I always pictured it as a super thin graham cracker.
September 16 at 8:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew Reiser Tofu. Dried Tofu. Now you know why they complained so much.
September 16 at 9:25pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe A super thin graham cracker made out of protein powder.
September 16 at 9:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, the Jacobite heir is a Bavarian duke at this time. The last real claimant to the throne was Henry Cardinal Benedict Stuart. He almost became pope, and so came very close to uniting in his person king of England and head of Church!
In his latter years he was financially supported by the Hannover 'pretenders'. And the monument, in the Vatican, to the Stuart kings, including the good Cardinal Duke of York, was last restored through generous donation from Elizabeth....really think they have reconciled
September 16 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, authority is not derived from consent of the govern, you heretic!
I kid, I kid. It frustrates me to no end that I have every issue of the Thomist save the 1950's, because there were some great articles in that decade. One was on various competing theories of the authority of governance. Bossuet, Suarez, Thomas...it was fascinating and the author was better versed than I in explaining Thomas here . First, to show I submit to the magisterium
"Those who believe civil society to have risen from the free consent of men, looking for the origin of its authority from the same source, say that each individual has given up something of his right,[15] and that voluntarily every person has put himself into the power of the one man in whose person the whole of those rights has been centered. But it is a great error not to see, what is manifest, that men, as they are not a nomad race, have been created, without their own free will, for a natural community of life. It is plain, moreover, that the pact which they allege is openly a falsehood and a fiction, and that it has no authority to confer on political power such great force, dignity, and firmness as the safety of the State and the common good of the citizens require. Then only will the government have all those ornaments and guarantees, when it is understood to emanate from God as its august and most sacred source. (Diurturnum, Leo XIII)"
In a rather nasty non-debate I had with some Americanists, in which a priest had to repeatedly call people on misrepresenting what I said, I summed up my views thusly, and this still makes the best sense tome
"Government derives all of its just authority from the common good. The actual establishment of goverment may be of different types. The authority comes from God. Those are the propositions which all Catholics must agree with. The particular Thomistic view I take is actual far more congenial to a "democracy" than other permissable views. It is simply this, there is a natural law inclination to form in a society. It is necessary that such be governed, so there is an obligation to set up one, a few or many in charge. This does not require explicit consent, but only tacit, and the authority is not derived from the consent as from its source, rather it is usually determined by it. In extraordinary cases even that is not needed, as say in the papacy or when God Himself, in the Old Testament, chose rulers."
But to see someone who really knows his stuff, see if you cannot find Thomist 16, 71-81, 11 p. January 1953
September 16 at 10:10pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz Also from Diurturnum (I forgot how great that Encyclical is)
5. Indeed, very many men of more recent times, walking in the footsteps of those who in a former age assumed to themselves the name of philosophers,(2) say that all power comes from the people; so that those who exercise it in the State do so not as their own, but as delegated to them by the people, and that, by this rule, it can be revoked by the will of the very people by whom it was delegated. But from these, Catholics dissent, who affirm that the right to rule is from God, as from a natural and necessary principle.
6. It is of importance, however, to remark in this place that those who may be placed over the State may in certain cases be chosen by the will and decision of the multitude, without opposition to or impugning of the Catholic doctrine. And by this choice, in truth, the ruler is designated, but the rights of ruling are not thereby conferred. Nor is the authority delegated to him, but the person by whom it is to be exercised is determined upon.
September 16 at 10:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia saying "all authority comes from God" seems to me to be like answering "for the greater glory of God" to any historical question.
September 16 at 10:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz What is wrong with that?
September 16 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nothing really. But then we say that bad rulers rule by God's authority, and then we have to distinguish between active and passive will, and it all gets very complicated
September 16 at 10:23pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Isak Benedict, when I was briefly in Catholic school (after my first foray into public school, but before my one semester of "homeschool"), I was taught the manna was bird shit. Literal bird shit.
September 16 at 10:23pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm sure it isn't a graham cracker. those we invented to "suppress carnal urges...."
September 16 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley . . . and by a mysterious twist of fate hit on the exact chemical constitution of the manna in the desert.
September 16 at 10:30pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia IDK if the pre-promised land Israelites were suppressing any carnal urges....
September 16 at 10:33pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Didn't they have to eat crow or sumpin before the carnal urges ended? What's in store for us ya wonder, belly full and belly aching.
September 16 at 11:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict So our candidates for the role are rock bread material, a super thin graham cracker, tofu, and bird shit. A promising start.
September 16 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think you could all do better if you cited some text up in here.
September 16 at 11:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Gnosis.
September 16 at 11:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I believe the manna was crystallized gnosis juice.
September 16 at 11:57pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna
Manna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Manna (Hebrew: מָן) or al-Mann wa al-Salwa (Arabic: المَنّ و السلوى, Kurdish: gezo, Persian: گزانگبین), sometimes or...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 16 at 11:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Some say it was psychedelic...
September 16 at 11:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Ergot, perhaps?
September 17 at 12:01am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson 13 That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14 When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. 15 When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was.
September 17 at 12:04am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Heh, heh, heh. Quail turds.
September 17 at 12:05am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The wiki article is a good start.
September 17 at 12:05am · Like
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Isak Benedict Some kind of entheogen would make sense, like the kykeon of the Eleusinian Mysteries.
September 17 at 12:07am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If they let it sit, the good book says it became nasty and full of maggots right quick. Had to boil it so it would keep, I think.
September 17 at 12:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Obviously it was polenta. Or grits.
September 17 at 12:08am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Feta cheese?
September 17 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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Tim Hsiao This has been on my newsfeed for weeks. I've just noticed how many posts it has....
September 17 at 12:09am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict The taste was supposedly honey-like.
September 17 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Haydock says it was not Arabian manna...hmm I don't even know what Arabian manna is!
September 17 at 12:16am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Welcome, Tim Hsiao. TNET has drawn you here. TNET is always here.
What is TNET? Well, TNET is what gives your comments their power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.
September 17 at 12:18am · Like · 4
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Tim Hsiao Cool story, bro.
September 17 at 12:19am · Like
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John Ruplinger Its just not natu'l. I say. Not many substance refrain from spoiling by maggots every seventh day. And only allow for a limited daily harvest. Daily bread from heaven.
September 17 at 12:23am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But it does spoil if they try to save it for later without boiling it, no?
September 17 at 12:25am · Edited · Like · 1
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson Is TNET expecting children? Can it even reproduce?
September 17 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger except Sabbath.
September 17 at 12:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger But I just read New Advent. My Bible is unopened.
September 17 at 12:30am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill How long was this the only food?
September 17 at 12:38am · Like
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John Ruplinger "It is plain, moreover, that the pact they allege is openly a falsehood and a fiction." The antecedent of they? Rousseau? Hobbes?
September 17 at 12:48am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger 40 years.
September 17 at 12:47am · Like
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Jeff Neill I wonder where they went in those years, or did they just go nowhere, satisfied on eating ... Mana... And doing nothing.... And never getting to a body of water for fish.
September 17 at 12:54am · Like
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Jeff Neill I know it is analogically/ metaphorically significant, but it seems to challenge reason.
September 17 at 12:55am · Like
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Isak Benedict It was never the only food. They had oil, flour, milk and meat. They also bought supplies from neighboring peoples.
September 17 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger They wandered. What were they punished for though? That is very interesting.
September 17 at 12:57am · Like
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Jeff Neill How do you wander with 40 years worth of flour?
September 17 at 1:01am · Like
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Jeff Neill It would seem they may have stopped for years at a time to replenish supplies, but 40 years worth of mana and wandering seems more reasonable/desirable to maintain the "story".
September 17 at 1:04am · Like
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Isak Benedict Well, they might have only had enough to make offerings with. I'm not certain about it.
September 17 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "story"? I assume they weren't always moving but also not settling.
September 17 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - I thought they were punished for not believing that they could take over the promised land from its current occupants?
September 17 at 1:10am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, I wouldn't deny what you said. Although I think there is room for "consent of the governed" in those declarations. This is not opposed, simply speaking, to authority coming from God.
At least this is how I have always understood things. Perhaps I am wrong.
September 17 at 1:29am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. The article I recommended makes it clear that consent of the governed in some way plays a role in every Catholic theory here, including Aquinas's. Bossuet's was a certain kind of "designation" theory, whereas Suarez and Bellarmine had a kind of transference theory (and held that pure democracy was naturally presupposed). Whereas Aquinas held that pure democracy was not a natural form of government, and hence not presupposed by the rule of one, a few, or many. But still his view was not quite the same as Bossuet's.
And in anycase, I don't think such a mechanism is needed with say David. My understanding is that, for Aquinas, the actual establishment of a rule is required by the natural law, but if that rule is established directly by the source of authority, God, then the secondary causality of our politicking is unnecessary.
September 17 at 1:35am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz ETA: the other theory is the "transmission theory" Not transference. Transference mistates it
The problem, why we can reject the claim that the origin/source/basis of the authority is the consent of the governed, is threefold
1. Some authority is given in nature, as father over son. The father need not his son's consent in order to bind him in conscience
2. Some authority is given by God directly, as in the pope. The pope does not need the consent of the faithful to govern
3. Just as no individual merely by being a member of a common society can have authority over another of that same society, neither can any number of them, even a majority. Conversely, even in our system, even if the vast majority disagree, still those in governance have lawful authority for this or that act, and that authority may bind in conscience.
The analogy with fatherhood is apropos. The son is not free to choose whether to be governed or not. It is given is nature. Likewise with society. Now Bellarmine and Suarez recognized this, and proceeded to argue that therefore, since society needs a rule, that authority, given by God (or else it could not bind in conscience) is primordially and naturally present in the whole (pure democracy is a natural form). But Aquinas doesn't lend himself to this. Rule requires some form of hierarchy and unitive principle. And so this authority never belongs, even considered hypothetically, to the mass of the people, but still, by an obligation of the natural law, and often tacitly rather than openly (I think of Rick's rise to leadership, initially, in the Walking Dead...) they do transmit said authority to one, a few or many. Not give, but transmit. It only has the form, as it were, of authority when so transmitted and not before.
The designation theory, on the other hand, given by Bossuet would hold it something akin to how Cardinals select the pope. The merely designate the man to whom God grants authority. They in no sense transfer authority to him, as if it were theirs to grant, as indeed their entire authority derives from him
You are going to love this, Daniel Lendman, but Cajetan can be credited with introducing both the transmission and designation theories! He ascribed the former to royal authority, the latter to papal. Suarez and Bellarmine took the former to a different conclusion, though, that I hold is Aquinas's (and correct).
So we could say, if I am right, that the formation of political authority is like the establishment of human law. Natural law may dictate that one should drive on one side of the road (insofar as self-preservation leads to demanding certain safety rules). But this or that is determined by human law. In the family, the determination of authority is more or less already given, but in political society it pertains to "the consent of the governed" to give it its further determination, without which it does not exist (just as the rule to drive on one side cannot exist unless which side that is is determined).
Does this seem tenable?
September 17 at 1:59am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson To be clear: you are saying that the consent of the governed at some level or at some time or in some manner must be given to make the one, the few, or the many the ultimate authority in a given regime?
September 17 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Yes, explicitly or tacitly.
September 17 at 2:04am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well with the exception of divine intervention. Just as with the papacy, God could just say "hey guys, Bob here will be your king. obey him"
Kind of causing the effect directly rather than through the natural processes there though...
September 17 at 2:06am · Like
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Isak Benedict Are you considering the consent of the governed to be a principle of lawful government, or merely a condition of it?
September 17 at 2:07am · Like
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Isak Benedict More clearly - the way Matthew stated your position makes it sound like you are merely pointing out an obvious condition for government to exist. A people that will not be ruled, will not be ruled. Are you claiming further that the consent of the governed is a _cause_ of government?
September 17 at 2:10am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes it is.
September 17 at 2:10am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Of course, once established the acts of the sovereign remain binding in conscience (presuming they are not unjust laws, etc) as long as there is some ordering to the common good, even if a majority disagree with this or that law/act etc (practical difficulties aside). The common good is the justification for the acts of government. Consent of the governed for who will govern. God for the basis of its authority, even over the will of one who does not want to be governed.
It seems to me that once established, it is not like the new members, upon the age of reason, deliberate about consent. Natural law is that there be an authority, and an authority is already, in the case of an existing society, a given (at least normally).
September 17 at 2:14am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I am not sure if you are saying authority is derived from the consent of the governed or not. Could you explain what the difference is between authority "derived by" and "determined by" the consent of those governed?
Does my question make sense? I might just be missing something.
September 17 at 2:21am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am denying that it is derived by the consent of the governed
September 17 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz That would imply that the authority, as such, was theirs to give or that it was constituted, as such, by their consent. Neither can be the case. Still, it does belong to them, in any of the Catholic theories, to give determination to the form of government, most frequently tacitly
September 17 at 2:28am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Okay, I see. Would that not make it a necessary condition rather than a principle?
September 17 at 2:29am · Like
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Pater Edmund Hey, Andrew Strain, The Neverending Thread is talking about transmission and designation theory!
September 17 at 3:01am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Joshua Kenz have you read Elliot Milco's piece on sovereignty? : http://the-josias.blogspot.co.at/.../introductory-notes...
The Josias: Notes on the Relation between Sovereignty and Commonwealth
THE-JOSIAS.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 17 at 3:03am · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz No, I haven't. But I shall
September 17 at 3:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The violence inherent in the system (i.e., in the formation of nation-states):
http://youtu.be/J7HpE4k5JLc
Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence
Noam Chomsky on Scottish Independence : Statehood and Power. Recorded at MIT, Boston by Stuart Platt....
YOUTUBE.COM
September 17 at 3:31am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia manna gnosis:
http://gnosticwarrior.com/the-philosophers-stone.html
The Philosophers Stone
For many ages our great ancestors had known about what we call today, "the philosophers stone." However it wasn't...
GNOSTICWARRIOR.COM
September 17 at 7:35am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia manna is phosphorus....
September 17 at 8:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Who on this thread recommended The Historian? I've almost finished it. It's getting super scary
September 17 at 9:10am · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele The end is SO scary.
September 17 at 9:40am · Like
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Nina Rachele edit: think I stole this from a facebook friend... http://www.karlremarks.com/.../we-give-scottish...
Karl reMarks: We Give the Scottish Independence Referendum the Middle...
KARLREMARKS.COM
September 17 at 9:43am · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Since God isn't speaking to us from pillars of fire, the problem in these debates over consent is what the more traditional types thundering against consent mean practically.
The practical options as regards deciding on a fundamental regime form are consent/persuasion or force/violence. Usually, of course, in the course of human events both are involved in foundings and revolutions, and force and violence seems to prevail. This is because many do not seem to care about consent or persuasion. Force and violence domestically are more often than not signs that one or both sides are seeking power, and not the public good.
To say that consent is not part of whether or not a given people chooses whether the one, the few, or the many ought to fundamentally govern seems to suggest that the wise rule by force, and politics then becomes an arms race between various groups claiming to be the wise that are justified in using force.
Liberalism begins by trying to mitigate the problem - consent being a barrier to force and violence.
September 17 at 9:41am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So the problem with ancien regime platitudes like "error has no rights" and "it is the office of the wise to rule" is that what truth and error are, and who is wise, is precisely what is in dispute in political life, and the more so they are in dispute, the more meaningless such propositions become. They solve nothing. Do we determine what error and wisdom are and how they ought to be implemented via something more akin to an arms race and force, or by something more akin to persuasion and conversion? That's the question.
September 17 at 9:59am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Aristotle, by the way, who is the founding father of the common good and virtue and justice rightly understood being the end of the polis, was well aware of this and thus did not childishly repeat such mantras when he rolled up his sleeves to discuss politics.
He recognized, for instance, that even if the many (who assert that justice is equality) and the few (who assert that justice is inequality) had extreme and incorrect understandings of justice, one must give both views a say in an attempt to give the mean and the correct understanding of justice a fighting chance. This is also why he is so big on the existence of a middle class, so understanding of ostracism and attempts to keep the oligarchs in line no less than the mob. Etc.
September 17 at 10:00am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Is Scotland giving consent
September 17 at 10:18am · Like
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Joel HF I'd say consent of the governed is virtually never given explicitly, unless consent means "we submit, please stop shooting us."
September 17 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Aristotle is also great for understanding the overratedness of written constitutions.
September 17 at 10:20am · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Hamilton and Madison agreed with both of those points.
September 17 at 10:24am · Like · 1
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Andrew Strain I pretty much agree with Elliot Milco's piece on Sovereignty that Pater Edmund linked above. Moreover, the transmission theory of authority which holds that the entire political community is invested with political authority is in my opinion incompatible with the essential function of political authority:"the unification of action for the common good when the means to the common good is not uniquely determined" (Simon Phil. Of Dem. Gov.). If every member of the community is invested with authority there is no authority properly speaking because direction towards the common good is simply not possible in the vast majority of cases where the means to common good "is not uniquely determined." Any decision would have to be unanimous, but authority is intended to supply unanimity on account of the very impossibility of attaining it. (see Finnis Natural Law and Natural Rights 248-252)
September 17 at 10:38am · Edited · Like · 1
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Andrew Strain Also how is thing still alive? I stopped following it around the 8 or 9k mark.
September 17 at 10:52am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. But very few actual political bodies have ever meant that the consent must be unanimous. Usually it is a mixture of the majority and some outside understanding or standard of right and wrong and what is good, etc.
September 17 at 10:52am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's why the modern nation-state of leviathanic proportions is so unnatural. what could consent even mean in a country of 300 million people?
September 17 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yes means yes. (Lack of "yes" also means yes)
September 17 at 11:40am · Like
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Jeff Neill No means yes, if the person saying no lacks the power to defend their belief.
September 17 at 11:41am · Like
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John Ruplinger Who is wise is really not disputed. Indeed in democracy there is a long standing tradition of despising anyone who reminds us of inequalities. As to the rest of Matthew's remarks or rather snipes they are hardly worthy of response as if Aristotle were aware of the so called platitude that error has no rights - indeed nowhere mentioned by Joshua. Continue boxing shadows though.
September 17 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill A whole nation saying no may mean yes if you confuse the wording on the ballot and half answer no/yes on accident
September 17 at 11:43am · Like
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Michael Beitia what part of "polis" includes nation-state?
September 17 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger translated "global village". It includes all nation states and continental unions.
September 17 at 11:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia Global village is an interesting concept. It also brings up whether "nation-state" can have any meaning in a G8 world of global economy.
plus nation from "natio" or "birth" means very little when the mobility and scale of the state is such that, for example, I can live 2000 miles from the land of my birth and still be in the same "nation" (FWIW I consider myself an immigrant...)
September 17 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Taxes, politics, laws, flora, fauna and pronunciation different? Yeah you immigrated.
September 17 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The old empires operated under subsidiarity, some moreso (and better imo) some less but all moreso than the modern state maybe even when we had the 10th amendment. This degree of centralization of lawmaking and administration is an historical first (cf. de Tocq. and schools with today's CC which is unprecedented again in scale and scope as 2 days ago confirmed to me by a life long public school teacher who finally just got out).
September 17 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia well, then authority doesn't rest with the consent of the governed, but rather with the will of the ruling elite.
I suppose the centralization of power is kind of like trying to teach algebra to a class of 1000 junior high kids. The material may be the same, but the teacher would be incapable of tailoring anything to any student specifically, and would be ineffective.
September 17 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or to put it another way:
all political authority is a populist deceit.
September 17 at 12:41pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger the irony. the irony. But nothing can be more ruinous to welcome in your social circle than the least attempt to undeceive.
September 17 at 12:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The system does not require your opinion.
September 17 at 12:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes it does. It requires enough of an opinion that rule is legitimate.
September 17 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger we like our little lies but our big ones we will take to the grave and send others first early to theirs rather than let go our grasp.
September 17 at 12:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Honest question-- why do y'all hate the Common Core? Is it the principle of the thing, or the practice?
September 17 at 1:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger both. Its the same as the old rot on a grander scale and there are testing aspects that are Orwellian.
September 17 at 1:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Louis CK hates it too. He had a lot of stuff on Twitter about it, from a while back.
September 17 at 1:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What are the Orwellian testing aspects?
September 17 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Even many of the most classicly denominated schools adhere to the modern curricula with better material and a couple additions. Even the renegades conform with unquestionable docility.
September 17 at 1:12pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Since the primary common good is peace, there has to be a certain level of implicit consent for the common good to be preserved. But authority comes from the common good, and from consent only insofar as it is a subordinate element in the common good. I agree with Andrew Strain on the incoherence of the transmission theory. Moreover, Pius X in Notre Charge explicitly rejects the strong version of the transmission theory:
«The Sillon places public authority primarily in the people, from whom it then flows into the government in such a manner, however, that it continues to reside in the people. But Leo XIII absolutely condemned this doctrine in his Encyclical “Diuturnum Illud” on political government in which he said:
“Modern writers in great numbers, following in the footsteps of those who called themselves philosophers in the last century, declare that all power comes from the people; consequently those who exercise power in society do not exercise it from their own authority, but from an authority delegated to them by the people and on the condition that it can be revoked by the will of the people from whom they hold it. Quite contrary is the sentiment of Catholics who hold that the right of government derives from God as its natural and necessary principle.”
Admittedly, the Sillon holds that authority - which first places in the people - descends from God, but in such a way: “as to return from below upwards, whilst in the organization of the Church power descends from above downwards.”
But besides its being abnormal for the delegation of power to ascend, since it is in its nature to descend, Leo XIII refuted in advance this attempt to reconcile Catholic Doctrine with the error of philosophism. For, he continues: “It is necessary to remark here that those who preside over the government of public affairs may indeed, in certain cases, be chosen by the will and judgment of the multitude without repugnance or opposition to Catholic doctrine. But whilst this choice marks out the ruler, it does not confer upon him the authority to govern; it does not delegate the power, it designates the person who will be invested with it.”
For the rest, if the people remain the holders of power, what becomes of authority? A shadow, a myth; there is no more law properly so-called, no more obedience. »
September 17 at 1:15pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Pater, I don't quite get the distinction between "designating" and "delegating" in the Leo XIII quote above.
September 17 at 1:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Nationalized database for regular computerized tests that tailorize questions according to answers of previous questions. . . . .
September 17 at 1:16pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I read it as delegating=transmission theory; designating=designation theory
September 17 at 1:17pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Nina Rachele: that Scotland article is great. I loved this bit: "This rivalry for long manifested itself through the competition between the two main football clubs, the Protestant Rangers and the Catholic Celtic, until Rangers were hilariously relegated to the third division in 2012 as a result of financial troubles." That was such a great day: http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../sometime-miracles-do.../
Sometimes miracles do happen....
The first line of the Wikipedia entry for a certain Football team, "Rangers Football Club was a football club based...
EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM
September 17 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Isn't it kind of a cop out to say all authority comes from God?
"why is it raining?" - God wills it
"why is it not raining?" Deus vult
September 17 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Well, both designation theory and transmission theory agree authority comes from God. The disagreement is about how that works.
September 17 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia everything comes from God. Case closed
September 17 at 1:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but seriously, if the "people" or whatever can designate a ruler, then they can designate another, how is that different from delegating authority?
September 17 at 1:20pm · Like
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Pater Edmund One difference is that on transmission theory revolutions are easier to justify.
September 17 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Delegating implies the authority comes from the people. The authority to rule comes from God. That does not mean all rule is legitmate. It is only authority to make just laws and promote the common good not its opposite.
September 17 at 1:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Not sure I understand the transmission theory though.
September 17 at 1:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not sure I see a difference (yet)
September 17 at 1:26pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Another difference is this: on the one account (transmission theory) delegation is of the essence of political authority, whereas on the other account (designation theory) designation is one of many ways by which the ruler can receive authority (cf. Milco).
September 17 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger To designate is simply to point out who shall have the power. Designation can occur by law, by a king, by nobles, by the people in democracy or in popularly elected monarchy. Unless i confuse it for the tacit consent of the governed but I dont think that is the same.
September 17 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And God Himself can designate as with David who was chosen by the people as well. It occurs in all regimes but is not a transmission of authority itself. That comes from God.
September 17 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger As I read, God gave the Israelites a king they wanted, one "like other nations", Saul. And when that flopped, He gave them a king after His own heart. He doesn't force his will upon us but gives us what we pray for. Sometimes you wish He weren't so accomodating
September 17 at 1:52pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia however, Pater, even if there were another way of ruling, lack of the consent of the governed makes for a de facto loss of authority, wherever that authority may have come from.
the people can always march the sovereign to the guillotine
September 17 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger no. Not if merely designated. Leo refutes this opinion.
September 17 at 2:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so if one were to march Louis XVI to the guillotine, he still has authority?
September 17 at 2:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Who ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common good? If the King doesn't look to it, the people grin and bear it until when, exactly?
Funny thing about the common good - it implies a deep or ultimate equality. For it must be truly common to all. Utilitarianism's greatest good for the greatest number doesn't cut it.
September 17 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Put another way - when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not desire?
September 17 at 2:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia shut up and pay your taxes!
September 17 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No one disputes, obviously, that the common good is the goal and this ought to trump the mere will of the one, few, or the many.
Our own regime acknowledges this, and our politics are often about when majority rule goes wrong.
But the question is how to arrange things.
September 17 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger one or few? No one is saying that or implying. And what of the many or those who write the laws? [To 3 comments above.]
September 17 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Often the change of a corrupt regime comes from outside. As Cyrus to Babylon.
September 17 at 2:33pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So what about Cardinal Burke's change in position...?
September 17 at 2:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Wall scrubbed and put in edit. Not to worry. Daneels will replace Burke at the synod.
September 17 at 3:15pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Re: Burke. It is dismaying news. Without wanting to overreact, it makes me want to put my head down, focus on my own spiritual life, and just try to ignore what goes on in Rome altogether (as far as that is possible for a practicing Catholic, of course). It would be a disgusting travesty if he is not able to participate in the Synod, while Kasper and his anti-Catholic views are paraded around like a hero.
September 17 at 4:02pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill ?? I know little of Cardinal Kasper, so I just read up what I could find, but I am not sure why you are critical of him. Is it the not ending the excommunication of Pius X bisohps (due to the biships denial of the jewish holocost), the desire to bring divorced/remarried back to the sacraments, or something else?
September 17 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson There are better links, but here's a quick one:
http://dailycaller.com/.../the-scandal-of-cardinal-kasper/
The Scandal Of Cardinal Kasper
Cardinal Walter Kasper has become the man of the hour within the Roman Catholic Church. With the...
DAILYCALLER.COM
September 17 at 5:11pm · Like
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Jeff Neill thanks... I'll check it out.
September 17 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia divorced/remarried back to the sacraments? what does that mean?
September 17 at 5:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If a Catholic has divorced and remarried civilly, if they are ever allowed to return to receiving communion without the "no sex" requirement.
September 17 at 5:22pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Here is a 2-minute video of Burke on Kasper:
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/.../cardinal-burke...
Creative Minority Report: Cardinal Burke: Cardinal Kasper in 'Error'
Thank Thank Thank God we have Cardinals like Cardinal...
CREATIVEMINORITYREPORT.COM
September 17 at 5:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes Jeffie, that's the definition of marriage that the Church has always taught.
September 17 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill As long as the divorced spouse is alive, the remarried person is barred from communion.
September 17 at 5:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes, any one with mortal sin is barred from communion. why add sacrilege to fornication (or adultery)?
September 17 at 5:24pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Burke doesn't really get what Kasper is trying to say. Perhaps he should learn to speak German first.
September 17 at 5:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes, I know. It appears Kasper was making an aruement for "mercy" on those that wish to return to the sacrements while remarried and "living in sin"
September 17 at 5:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If we believe in the real presence, and we believe in mortal sin, there is really only one conclusion.
Unless one thinks communion is like a badge of honor that has only to do with oneself and not with God
September 17 at 5:26pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Yes.
September 17 at 5:27pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell He was making a pastoral claim (Kasper is) not a claim about Canon Law.
September 17 at 5:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if you separate the pastoral from the theological, then you're asking for trouble
September 17 at 5:29pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I am constantly amazed that the number of people in the communion line exceeds the number of people in the confession line
September 17 at 5:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill One is much easier to approach in the state of sin
September 17 at 5:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but with no merit in it
September 17 at 5:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Not just no merit, but condemnation.
Kasper's position is incoherent. No surprise, he stopped defending the Catholic faith, if he ever did, years ago.
You don't help people by encouraging them to damn themselves through sacrilegious communion. There is no hope, grace, joy of the Eucharist in any of this. He talks of that, but that can only be true of incidental aspects, of "feelings" and "self affirmation"; here, affirmation in their sin. Don't worry, you are fine where you are, we don't exclude you; but God will, for all eternity. And we think sending the opposite message hear is pastoral?
How many Cardinals, bishops and even popes much go to hell for all eternity, before they learn that a shepherds hook is there to bring wayward sheep back, if necessary against their liking, to the straight and narrow, and not to be dragged by the sheep.
If Kasper prevails one of two things will happen...the Church's teaching of marriage will further be rejected, and this will be seen as part and parcel of that; and we will be accessories to the sins of many, as we encourage sacrilegious communion.
Kasper is clear enough to understand. He doesn't believe, so such "pastoral" solutions are easy for him.
September 17 at 5:36pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz What is with this opposition of pastoral to canon law, and the avoidance of the underlying theological basis of the same?
Newsflash, pastoral law could be another name for canon law...to oppose to two is ludicrous. Kasper is at the very least rejecting canon law...the pastoral label is being used the way Averoists were alleged to use philosophy. Oh the world is eternal, philosophically, but theological it is not. The whole "two truth" claim, but this time as a cover to excuse sin and deny Church doctrine. Oh, I am only pastorally counselling the aiding the condemnation of souls through sacrilege, but canonically....how absurd must we get?
September 17 at 5:47pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell "Denn mit welcherlei Gericht ihr richtet, werdet ihr gerichtet werden; und mit welcherlei Maß ihr messet, wird euch gemessen werden." (Matt. 7:2)
September 17 at 7:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The Church has repeatedly judged that divorce and remarriage are grave sins and an impediment to receiving communion. I'm not judging - that's the Catholic Church.
and the idea that a pastoral claim is not a theological claim is at best misguided, at worst, total bs
September 17 at 7:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I take that back. In all cases total BS, at worst grave sin for leading the faithful into worse sin.
September 17 at 7:53pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz "I am uncomfortable when proponents of controversial positions take a Scripture passage and invoke it talismanically."- Ed Peters.
He said it better than I. By condoning their behavior, you become an accessory to their sin. I am not saying we should bring back the sentence of excommunication non-senentia et tolerati that was imposed on those who, through attempted bigamy, attempted to marry a second person after abandoning common life with their spouse, let alone subject them to excommunication vitandi where they do get barred from even setting a foot inside of a Church and all except close relations and those with necessary civil business are barred from even saying a word to them.
But should we not uphold the discipline of protecting the sacrament? And to elide over their adulterous attempt at simultaneous bigamy, because that is what it is...bigamist, adulterers, abandonment of common life with their actual spouse.... by calling them "suffering"...this is not helping them. It is like affirming the cancer of a patient who is suffering. How does that help?
No my version of charity is a bit more in line with scripture here...hot coals and all that. And to claim that some hidden gnosis exists in Kasper because he spoke German! Hah!
Do be charitable to these who, mocking marriage enter into false unions, who, maybe realizing the grave evil they have done, are unwilling to renounce evil. Yes, circumstances of their adulterous union, e.g. children, are real issues. Pastoral solicitude may be for them to live under the same roof, as brother and sister. Anything else is SIN. And to counsel anything else is to take the place of Satan and place yourself on the path of hellfire.
Can we be serious? Kasper, I know, has no fear of the Lord here, but I for one do. That is the stakes here, not someone's feelings about the Church, but whether the Church brings that person to God...we don't do that by ignoring the cancer of sin.
September 17 at 7:59pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson "A further case for the admission of remarried divorcees to the sacraments is argued in terms of mercy. Given that Jesus himself showed solidarity with the suffering and poured out his merciful love upon them, mercy is said to be a distinctive quality of true discipleship. This is correct, but it misses the mark when adopted as an argument in the field of sacramental theology. The entire sacramental economy is a work of divine mercy and it cannot simply be swept aside by an appeal to the same. An objectively false appeal to mercy also runs the risk of trivializing the image of God, by implying that God cannot do other than forgive. The mystery of God includes not only his mercy but also his holiness and his justice. If one were to suppress these characteristics of God and refuse to take sin seriously, ultimately it would not even be possible to bring God’s mercy to man. Jesus encountered the adulteress with great compassion, but he said to her “Go and do not sin again” (Jn 8:11). God’s mercy does not dispense us from following his commandments or the rules of the Church. Rather it supplies us with the grace and strength needed to fulfil them, to pick ourselves up after a fall, and to live life in its fullness according to the image of our heavenly Father." - Card. Muller, Prefect of the CDF
September 17 at 8:16pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill I do not like thinking pulling a "Henry VIII", of murdering one wife to marry another is more forgivable than divorce and remarriage.
But I guess it is what it is.
September 17 at 8:16pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Full text here: http://www.news.va/.../archbishop-muller-care-of...
Archbishop Müller: Care of remarried divorcees must not be reduced to the...
NEWS.VA
September 17 at 8:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Wouldn't it be better to also provide the tools and resources to discover when annulment is possible for the first marriage and how to complete the process?
September 17 at 8:43pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Henry never did murder his true wife. Let second "wives" beware. But haven't we sacreligious communions enough without more open false sanction?
September 17 at 8:52pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe He sort of murdered Catherine of Aragon by neglect, and he straight up murdered Catherine Howard, who was his true wife, since he married her well after Catherine of Aragon was dead.
September 17 at 8:54pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict "I'm Henry the eighth, I am. Henry the eighth I am, I am. I got married to the widow next door, she's been married seven times before..."
September 17 at 8:56pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Catherine perhaps died of her penances but Professor Wiki relates that it was cancer.
September 17 at 9:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If you murder your wife, I don't think you can contract another marriage, but maybe that's only if you conspired with the future "wife" to murder the former
September 17 at 9:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm just saying, he was only a tiny shade nicer to C of A than the ones he did murder, and probably only because her uncle was Charles V.
September 17 at 9:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia see what happens when people aren't allowed to divorce and re-marry? they behead their wives and start their own church. Look at the pastoral need!
September 17 at 9:05pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I just object to Jeff. Since Henry VIII did not repent, no divorcee should? It doesn't quite follow if you see what I mean. C of A was raised to point out one flaw.
September 17 at 9:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I have a happy marriage. I love my wife. I want to grow incredibly old with her. (This counts as public record, right)
September 17 at 9:24pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill The best part about the church are the keys. What is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven. There are no null annulments once granted.
September 17 at 9:26pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Nothing to worry about, Liz. We just speculatin'.
September 17 at 9:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I can't imagine the position of someone divorced and remarried. I don't want to. But part of me feels like it is people that stopped practicing the faith for a period of time, did whatever, and now that they are coming back, expect that there is no problem with how they behaved in the intermediary time. Frankly, you can't have your cake and eat it too. there are consequences for everyone's actions.
September 17 at 9:27pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger yeah. I anulled the anullment comment.
September 17 at 9:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Liz's phone died, she can't reply. I guess I am free to marry another phone.
September 17 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Anullment declares something never was: no binding or loosing involved. That right?
September 17 at 9:39pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Daniel Quinan
September 17 at 10:23pm · Like
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Daniel Quinan Yes, that's right.
Also, it's high time for this:
https://i.imgflip.com/bmx4t.jpg
I.IMGFLIP.COM
September 17 at 10:26pm · Like · 8
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Jeff Neill What is the problem here? Is this Cardinal actually saying that those who are in the state of mortal can receive communion? Or, is he saying that more needs to be done to help them come back to the church? I see no problem, assuming he's sticking to doctrine. "Liz"
September 17 at 10:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Daniel Quinan - read the revised status. Heh.
September 18 at 1:00am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I have another serious question for TNET. Which one was in the very center of the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?
September 18 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Isak, that correct answer to that question is: who gives a shit. (I'm drinking.)
September 18 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That was a rather large G&T...but now it is sadly almost gone...
September 18 at 1:27am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Matthew J. Peterson, I want to go to there.
September 18 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I would just like to point out how the crusades were a failure because the Christians ultimately failed to liberate the Holy Land.
September 18 at 1:29am · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti Here's a topic: Caring about the demotion of Cardinal Burke or the opinions of Cardinal Kaspar makes you a modernist.
September 18 at 1:32am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is possible that Burke, whether intentionally or no, is part of the problem in the curia.
September 18 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson TNET needs one:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qiw3vVy_eN8?autoplay=1
Office Space - Jump to Conclusions
YOUTUBE.COM
September 18 at 1:40am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict To answer your question, Aaron, I give a shit. You honking great pockmark, you pickled herring, you pinhead. Like drinking is an excuse to be an ignoramus...
September 18 at 1:39am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What does anyone a little less dismissive think about the possibility that they may have been one and the same tree?
September 18 at 1:41am · Like
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Isak Benedict It's quite ambiguous in Genesis, which makes it fun.
September 18 at 1:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isak I have never thought about it.
September 18 at 1:41am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I know Augustine thinks they are different.
September 18 at 1:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes he does. I'm wondering if he's right.
September 18 at 1:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm always surprised few people seem to tackle the question of the trees and what the hell is going on with them and what their names even mean, myself.
In the older authors, they seem to speak authoritatively about it in often in deeply unsatisfying ways - and the issue often gets far too quick and easy a pass.
September 18 at 1:45am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What do you think it would mean for it to be the same tree.
September 18 at 1:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
September 18 at 1:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I like the simple question: what the hell is wrong with such knowledge? What does it even mean? And why a tree relating to life? Etc. It all seems very complicated to me.
September 18 at 1:44am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti To paraphrase Woody Allen, how the hell should I know about the trees in the Garden of Eden. I don't know how the can opener works.
September 18 at 1:47am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Daniel, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't teased out the possibilities completely yet. It would mean that one tree might have two aspects of its consumption that could not be simultaneously encountered by Adam - the conferring of wisdom and the conferring of immortality.
September 18 at 1:47am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Damn.
September 18 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And why a tree and a fruit? Ye shall know them by their fruits. Curses the tree that withers. Etc.
September 18 at 1:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson All I know is that I'd like a wee but more Gin.
September 18 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I certainly think it's a bit of a riddle. Another interesting thing is that the properties of the tree of knowledge of good and evil are mirrored in explicit references to King David's and King Solomon's personal piety. They are both said to be able "to discern good and evil," which seems to be an almost angelic power. Why was it forbidden for Adam to acquire those same powers of discernment?
September 18 at 1:51am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau It doesn't mean that the fruit would have been forbidden forever -- just until it was ripe perhaps.
September 18 at 1:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isak, maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic questions, then. Why is knowledge a problem? Why fruit? Why all those images?
September 18 at 1:52am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Like the gift of immortality. It was to be delayed.
September 18 at 1:52am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And doesn't knowledge being associated with all this strike us as odd given the focus on contemplative and speculative as higher than practical/ethical in our circles.
In both Solomon's case and here, the focus is not on that, it seems.
September 18 at 1:53am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Well, I'll see you guys later. I'm heading over the the fundamentalist TNET to discuss whether the trees in the Garden of Eden had rings.
September 18 at 1:54am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why does man have to know evil? (know good yes, but why evil?) It isn't the tree of knowledge in general.
September 18 at 1:55am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm back. They're talking about this, too.
September 18 at 1:55am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And why does it appear that the serpent tells the truth about the tree of knowledge of good and evil while Yahweh does not? God says if they eat of it, they will surely die. The serpent says no you won't, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like gods, knowing good and evil. Then they eat the fruit, and they don't die, and Yahweh is all like behold, they have become like us, knowing good and evil! What's going on there?
September 18 at 1:56am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti But they do die . . . later.
September 18 at 1:57am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Is the problem that they take contemplative seeing and knowing too far?!?
September 18 at 1:57am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Aaron Gigliotti - this is cool:
http://www.theatlantic.com/.../30-years-of-coens.../380220/
30 Years of Coens: "The Big Lebowski"
Raymond Chandler in a bowling alley
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY CHRISTOPHER ORR
September 18 at 1:57am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yeah Aaron, but Yahweh explicitly says they will die on the day they eat it. And they don't. Unless we take "day" to not be literal, which might be the case I guess.
September 18 at 1:58am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I read that! Loved the discussion of Coen Brothers references in Lebowski.
September 18 at 1:58am · Like
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Isak Benedict What would it mean to take contemplative seeing and knowing too far? Isn't the goal to know God Himself? How much farther could one go?
September 18 at 1:58am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Die === as in mortal sin
September 18 at 1:59am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Isak Benedict - take that to mean that NOW they are sure to die (upon eating eventual death is set in motion).
September 18 at 1:59am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict That's what Augustine says...but are you guys sure that's not stretching the meaning of the text too far?
September 18 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau And if they had then eaten from the Tree of Life, their sentence of being in mortal sin would have been immortalized. So putting them out and closing the garden was for their own good.
September 18 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And weren't they going to die anyway, as mortal beings as such do...?
September 18 at 2:00am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti St. Augustine, modernist.
September 18 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau nope
September 18 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau They could have entered eternal life without dying.
September 18 at 2:01am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ah that's an interesting point, Jody. I had not thought of that.
September 18 at 2:01am · Like
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Isak Benedict The one about them then eating from the Tree of Life.
September 18 at 2:01am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Like Our Lady did (fall asleep in the Lord)
September 18 at 2:01am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Augustine also said that to sing "On Eagles Wings" is to pray thrice. And, he didn't kneel after the Agnus Dei.
September 18 at 2:01am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau The priest who gave our TOB class the other night said they even glowed in the garden. Interesting. Not sure of his source for that.
September 18 at 2:02am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau That would have made finding them easy. And seeing when they had sinned even easier.
September 18 at 2:02am · Like
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Isak Benedict Huh.
September 18 at 2:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/OpaZU4Q3Ubk
Now young Skywalker you will die HD
:)
YOUTUBE.COM
September 18 at 2:03am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I just like saying that Adam literally tried to cover his ass after he sinned...
September 18 at 2:04am · Edited · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Augustine's favorite song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNXqjwh8is
Gather Us In
Gather Us In by Marty Haugen If you like this song, please show the artist appreciation by purchasing it: http://itunes....
YOUTUBE.COM
September 18 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'll have to ask him his source. He was a student of Dr Waldstein. Maybe Pater Edmund knows this info. ??
September 18 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or rather, is the problem how they came about the knowledge? What would have happened if they had simply asked God for the fruit?
September 18 at 2:04am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Daniel I wonder about that too. As if the fruit itself could have been had at the asking, but was not to be seized.
September 18 at 2:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau http://www.ccwatershed.org/.../Dan-Schutte-Mass-of.../
Why Can't We Use Secular Music During Mass?
Listen to these audio files. Is there any difference...
CCWATERSHED.ORG
September 18 at 2:05am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman My sense is that knowing good and evil, here, means more something like, being the measure of what is good and evil.
September 18 at 2:06am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Off to bed. I'm sure when I return this topic will have morphed into teacher salaries or homily rankings or something of the sort.
September 18 at 2:06am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Daniel you said above "Isak, maybe it is better to start with some of the more basic questions, then. Why is knowledge a problem? Why fruit? Why all those images?"
Could you maybe elaborate on your own question? Why do you think that might help solve some riddles?
September 18 at 2:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isak, I would love to, but I must be off to class.
September 18 at 2:07am · Like
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Isak Benedict But when does "knowing" ever mean "being the measure of?!?"
September 18 at 2:07am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Oh be sure to listen to the "My Little Pony" liturgy I posted above. Some things can't be 'unheard'
September 18 at 2:07am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Not to be aggressive at all, I'm just conveying excitement in my digital speech.
September 18 at 2:08am · Like
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Isak Benedict Darn I will await your return eagerly.
September 18 at 2:08am · Like
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Isak Benedict Well if everyone is going to bed maybe I will engage myself in scintillating conversation.
September 18 at 2:12am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4
that's not true. that's IMPOSSIBLE
it's about damn time.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 18 at 2:17am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti TNET. Good times.
September 18 at 2:18am · Like
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Isak Benedict #gnosis
September 18 at 2:21am · Like · 1
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Michaella Pape Jody, I'd not read that article before now and that is an absolutely horrifying similarity!
September 18 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #ponygnosis
September 18 at 2:27am · Like
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Isak Benedict Ah, the esoteric truths of modern worship music laid bare...TNET is pleased
September 18 at 2:28am · Like
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Jeff Neill You don't actually think that "the garden" is one physical place and not a metaphysical state of man?
September 18 at 3:18am · Like
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Isak Benedict Why not both?
September 18 at 3:19am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Why not the tree as both real tree in the middle of a garden and as a cosmic axis in the center of all things?
September 18 at 3:20am · Like
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John Boyer So who let TENT theme of endless talking about TAC get diverted to the Thomism discussion group? I thought TENT had a monopoly on that.
September 18 at 4:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Just in case this was bothering anyone else, Charles V was Catherine of Aragon's nephew, not her uncle
September 18 at 7:12am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia When you have read and carefully listened to these things, you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love Him, being made [as you are] a paradise of delight, presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and flourishing well, being adorned with various fruits. For in this place the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted; but it is not the tree of knowledge that destroys— it is disobedience that proves destructive. Nor truly are those words without significance which are written, how God from the beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of paradise, revealing through knowledge the way to life, and when those who were first formed did not use this [knowledge] properly, they were, through the fraud of the Serpent, stripped naked. For neither can life exist without knowledge, nor is knowledge secure without life. Wherefore both were planted close together.
from The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, 2nd century.
It seems like the early early Church tradition separates the two trees.
September 18 at 9:03am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Gregory of Nyssa argues that they are one tree (if memory serves).
September 18 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson John Boyer, please. It's TNET. And you speak like someone from the ancient days of TNET. Time have changed. Many epochs have passed.
September 18 at 10:38am · Like
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Pater Edmund All right this has been bugging me: why the T in TNET? The original acronym was simply NET. Isn't it bad form to include the definite article in acronyms? TUSA? Anyway acronyms are evil; why can't people just tag The Neverending Thread it doesn't take much longer.
September 18 at 10:41am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe TNET sounds more sci-fi than NET. Like that system that brings on the age of robots in Terminator.
September 18 at 10:42am · Like · 8
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Pater Edmund The worst acronym of all is LOTR. I just hate it; "of" AND "the" in an acronym?! By that logic the USA should be called TUSOA.
September 18 at 10:44am · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The internet: it even destroys proper acronyms. But TNET does have a ring to it, I have to say.
September 18 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "Toosoah" has a ring to it. . .
September 18 at 10:49am · Like
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John Ruplinger NET is ambiguous, infected with modernism. Just read Pascendi. TNET has a gnostic signifiance for the initiated, viz. those over 1000 posts. . . . mostly Straussians i think.
September 18 at 10:49am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I meant the sci-fi comment in support of TNET as our acronym, but Pater Edmund has a solid point about acronyms generally.
September 18 at 10:54am · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia how about tNET?
September 18 at 10:49am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe oooh, that's even better
September 18 at 10:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia Pater, I was looking in Gregory of Nyssa this morning, but I couldn't find the citation. Do you remember what it is from?
September 18 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [t]NET
September 18 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund It's in the Sermons on the Song of Songs I think.
September 18 at 10:52am · Like
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Pater Edmund Found it (Gregory of Nyssa anticipating Isak Benedict's point): «If we hear that paradise was planted by God and that the tree of life is in the center of paradise, we seek to learn from the One who reveals the hidden mysteries of which plants is the Father both the husbandsman and the vine dresser, and how it is possible that there are two trees in the middle of paradise, one of salvation and the other of destruction. For the exact center as in the drawing of a circle has only one point. However, if another center is somehow placed beside or added to that first one, it is necessary that another circle be added for that center so that the former one is no longer in the middle.» http://www.lectio-divina.org/index.cfm...
September 18 at 11:10am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #mathgnosis
what if circles in the Garden are non-Euclidean?
September 18 at 11:01am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ?
September 18 at 11:02am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia If it is elliptical geometry, there are two "centers"
September 18 at 11:03am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund «There was only one paradise. How, then, does the text say that each tree is to be considered separately while both are in the middle? And the text, which reveals that all of God's works are exceedingly beautiful, implies that the deadly tree is different from God's. How is this so? Unless a person contemplates the truth through philosophy, what the text says here will be either inconsistent or a fable.»
September 18 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I've no dog in this fight.
So the "trees" are one tree considered under separate notions
September 18 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund How can you have no dog in this fight?
September 18 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--admit that you stole tNET from tMG. Those who know, know.
September 18 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't like dog fighting
September 18 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Samantha, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of SkyNet from Terminator when they hear TNET.
September 18 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But the tree needn't be evil in itself nor permanently forbidden. And why couldn't they both be in the center next to each other?
September 18 at 11:16am · Like
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John Ruplinger The disobedience brought death spiritual first.
September 18 at 11:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, I admit and deny nothing.
September 18 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson The text of Genesis suggests to me that they are different:
"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever'" (Gen. 3:22, RSVCE)
The language here seems to imply that they have not yet eaten of the tree of life and that it is different from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God places an angel to guard the tree of life. It is my understanding that this is done to man's benefit, since if he ate of the tree of life while spiritually dead, he would live forever in a state of death (or something like that). It seems analogous to abstaining from the Eucharist (the Fruit of the Tree of Life/the Cross) when in the state of mortal sin.
September 18 at 11:26am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia yes, Sean, it certainly looks that way from this
et ait: Ecce Adam quasi unus ex nobis factus est, sciens bonum et malum: nunc ergo ne forte mittat manum suam, et sumat etiam de ligno vitae, et comedat, et vivat in aeternum.
September 18 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson As to knowledge of good and evil being a bad thing, wouldn't knowledge of evil detract from their freedom for righteousness? That is, if we understand freedom as the ability to do good, then would not a knowledge of evil perhaps be unnecessary to a knowledge and accomplishment of the good? It would in a certain sense be a knowledge of non-being (whatever that would mean), which cannot be said to be necessary for knowledge of being/good. I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of the good (maybe just not as such?) before eating the fruit.
It could also be that the knowledge spoken of is an experiential knowledge. They now have knowledge of good and evil because whereas before they only had experiential knowledge of good, they now have experiential knowledge of both, since to contradict the divine command was an evil. But perhaps that is a voluntaristic reading of the nature of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
September 18 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Jody Haaf Garneau: I think the glow-in-the-dark Adam and Eve thing is a Kabbalistic tradition.
September 18 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Above Matthew J. Peterson wrote: "Who ought to judge whether a regime form is looking to the common good? [...] Put another way - when is it legitimate for the one or the few to force the many into a regime form they do not desire?"
Maybe we can look at some concrete examples. 1) The anti-pope Anacletus II had the support of the majority of the cardinals, with only 16 belonging to the "sanior pars," which elected Innocent II.
2) The supression of the popular uprisings of 1848 in Bohemia and elsewhere.
3) The Spanish Civil War.
September 18 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater-- are you suggesting that church government operates on the same principles as state government? Otherwise I don't think the anti-pope example is helpful.
September 18 at 12:05pm · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau (different topic): Where do you people get your news about the Vatican from these days? Our priest said something weird at mass this morning about what Pope Francis is going to do (re: 2nd marriages and communion). I do hate rumours in the days of the internet.
And how is it even possible for consider communion for people who are in a "remarriage" situation (i.e.: first marriage is not annulled)? Has anyone made sense of this possibility? I am shocked at the comments (and ignorance) on the Catholic news sites.
September 18 at 12:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As discussed earlier, it doesn't seem possible without a dramatic change in doctrine, not just practice.
September 18 at 12:32pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And is that even possible? (to change doctrine)?
September 18 at 12:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe shouldn't be
September 18 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Apparently, if we find this offensive, we are pharisees. (according to the priest this morning)
September 18 at 12:33pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So what is the Pope actually saying? (Not some cardinal or bishop or commission)? Humanae Vitae showed that the pope can pull good out of evil suggestions.
September 18 at 12:34pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think it's probably the humanae Vitae situation. Never an intention to change it but some clergy thought there was so we ended up in a mess.
September 18 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau So what really ticks me off is having a priest tell me what the pope will do. How does he know? Where is he getting his info? (I need more facts)
September 18 at 12:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Matthew, the tree of knowledge of good and evil woudl, by its name, seem to provide practical knowledge: i.e. knowledge about good and evil.
September 18 at 12:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It is going to be - strike that - has become ugly. Stick to the daily rosary. The Faith of many will be tested. [Jody]
September 18 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe John, what do you mean? Your prophecy of doom is vague.
September 18 at 1:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As befits prophecies of doom, I suppose.
September 18 at 1:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger We've had a tidal wave of daily bad news. It's unbelievable: friends, family, the Vatican etc. A ten year old at our monastery who just fell to his death, couples breaking up, a fire in our house and delinquent contractors etc. on top of the daily craziness out of Rome et al.
September 18 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I AM NOT the only one saying it. And lots more i could say.
September 18 at 1:09pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Who is feeding the Koolaid to the guy on the Thomism discussion forum? Yikes! Maybe we should cross post over here some of the themes. (should women be allowed to vote? are husbands allowed to physically discipline their wives?)
September 18 at 1:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger what's the Thomism forum?
September 18 at 1:12pm · Like
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Richard Nutley re: jody
1. people shouldn't be allowed to vote
2. women are people
C. ... I'm not going to say it
September 18 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Is it supposed to be the end times or something?
September 18 at 1:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The upcoming synod is going to cause great confusion. But yeah, a chastizement has begun already. No need for prophecy.
September 18 at 1:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have great hope for the upcoming synod.
September 18 at 1:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just to check-- everyone on TNET thinks women should have the vote, right? I mean, assuming they think there should be a vote at all?
September 18 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe strike that. I don't actually want to know.
September 18 at 1:33pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I have hope for the Church and in Our Lady. The synod not so much.
September 18 at 1:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I lean heavily towards the one vote per household position.
September 18 at 1:37pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Samantha, how about not all women and not all men as a response? But I am not a fan of democracy. It is inherently unstable and lots of other things. Hoi polloi are not great masters.
September 18 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We have that in my household, Daniel, but I'm the one who gets the vote
September 18 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The one vote per household model is actually prejudicial against family units, since it gives two married people the same vote as an unmarried person
September 18 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But anyway, I SAID I didn't want to know.
September 18 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe But seriously, the one vote per household position is dumb.
September 18 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And also, my husband doesn't get to vote because he's Canadian, in case I gave the wrong impression
September 18 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner I have no idea what the rest of this conversation has been, and I refuse to press 'previous comments' but a lecturer at the ITI once proposed that votes be counted by household but weighted by the number of people represented, including kids. So you (Samantha) and Caleb would have one vote that counted for 5 whereas I would have 1. Interesting.
September 18 at 1:45pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger No one votes in my household. We are on indefinite strike.
September 18 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That presupposes unity of views within the family that doesn't always exist.
September 18 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Truth.
September 18 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner But I thought the idea of acknowledging that the vote of parents represents a larger portion of the populace than themselves was intriguing.
September 18 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hi Katherine. : )
September 18 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I do like that aspect.
September 18 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Is there a better system for getting from TAC to LAX now than back in our day? (that is, the system of getting a ride from a Teichert)
September 18 at 1:47pm · Unlike · 2
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Sean Robertson Roadrunner Shuttle
September 18 at 1:48pm · Like
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Sean Robertson www.rrshuttle.com
Roadrunner Shuttle -Los Angeles, LAX, LGB, BUR, SBA.
RRSHUTTLE.COM
September 18 at 1:48pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner No. Ha ha, that was the system, you're right. His (J. Teichert's) wife is a treasure, btw. Anyhow, I drive, though poorly, and only when not in class.
September 18 at 1:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner But roadrunner, yeah.
September 18 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I loved being a courier. Taking them to LAX over the rivers of highway, and then coming back myself up the one. Stop at Neptune's Net for a beer and a bite all by me lonesome. Good times.
September 18 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I just changed the status above to protect myself, but I guess I'm almost 20,000 comments too late. The judgers have already judged.
September 18 at 1:50pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I hope you aren't facebook friends with anyone who might be on a search comittee anytime, oh, ever
September 18 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Unfortunately...
September 18 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In another thread on that FB Thomism group, someone just said in all seriousness that men should be able to corporeally punish their wives.
September 18 at 1:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As Patrick X. Gardner said: "Ray Rice Theology."
September 18 at 1:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ???
September 18 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What is this THomism group?
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner That's it, I'm going for a run before I read any more.
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe good for you, but did you get my message?
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you seem to have messenger turned off
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner (P.s. in cas anyone is wondering, that person is NOT my brother Patrick.)
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.facebook.com/groups/TeamAquinas/686322341452314/
Brian OrtizThomism Discussion Group
I hope this is not terribly off-topic.
So... there are ex-St. Thomas Aquinas College students at my university. TAC is a liberal arts college in Santa Paula. Th...
See More
September 18 at 1:53pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Oops..., on now
September 18 at 1:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ^[the discussion group link, not Katherine's comment] This is why we can't have nice things.
September 18 at 2:16pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Some people have no idea what it means to be a Thomist
September 18 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson For reals quote from that thread:
"As for corporal punishment. I’ve never hidden the belief, but I don’t go out of my way to be abrasive. I brought it up to a close female friend not long ago, and convinced her of my position. What kind of punishment? Slapping or spanking, probably."
September 18 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson 50 Shades of Thomism
September 18 at 1:56pm · Edited · Like · 9
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Jody Haaf Garneau yikes
September 18 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia voting is stupid
September 18 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I would refer anyone with a strong stomach for language to South Park season 8 episode 8
September 18 at 2:55pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I can't remember voting for a candidate for national office and not feeling sick to my stomach afterwards. I would say "a candidate for any office" only occasionally I don't know much about candidates for local offices, and so don't know what I've done.
I maintain that ignorance is the only way one may feel anything less than utter revulsion upon voting for any of the presidential candidates (in primaries or otherwise) of my voting life time.
September 18 at 3:04pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Don't blame me, *I* voted for Kodos.
September 18 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I always felt pretty good voting Republican in New Jersey, because no one I voted for had the slightest hope of winning office. Except Chris Christie, that one time. Ah well, the other guy was a crook, too.
September 18 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I voted for Kang....
September 18 at 3:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm voting for Dukakis
September 18 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Joseph Ferrier If you're voting for someone who makes you sick to your stomach, you're doing it wrong. Very wrong.
September 18 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- is your profile picture a TNET reference? I'm impressed.
September 18 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #metagnosis #alltheladiesbelikedayyyum
September 18 at 3:25pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #profilegnosis
September 18 at 3:26pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Voting is never about anything other than the best possible. Practical politics is nothing other than answering the "compared to what" or "compared to who" question. So don't let it bother you.
September 18 at 3:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you did think your candidate was wonderful and perfect - well, then I would be worried.
September 18 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Some people drink Pepsi, some people drink Coke, the wacky morning DJ says democracy's a joke..."
September 18 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Every time I vote my dad calls me up and asks who I voted for and then he yells at me.
September 18 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson We need to get rid of the puritanical view of politics. What can best be done? Then you hold your nose and vote/do it.
September 18 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia NEVER! I only vote for the best. See also Ivan Karamozov
September 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Say more, Joseph Ferrier.
September 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe A lot of time, though, even that is hard to determine, and it's more a question of guessing which future evil would be worst and hoping you didn't just indirectly abet genocide in the Middle East, or something.
September 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. That's politics/prudence. So it has always been!
September 18 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Nuh-uh. Politics is the art the care of which is men's souls.
September 18 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think the best prudential decision is to join the PNDP.
September 18 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson All you wan to do is vote for whatever candidate you think is better, even if only marginally so (less evil). There is nothing wrong with that.
September 18 at 3:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yep. Still sucks, though.
September 18 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia other than you are actively supporting evil. but whatevs
September 18 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
The People's Front
From Monty Python's The Life of Brian. Great for getting discussion board sniping back on track.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 18 at 3:35pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think that actively supporting argument is ridiculous.
September 18 at 3:36pm · Like
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Joel HF I think that video may have been posted here before, but who can say?
September 18 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley There's another principle at work in politics: if a politician needs your vote and needs to lie to get it, he will probably continue lying as long as he needs to be reelected by you: thus, he will probably act politically as you want him to.
September 18 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson When it comes to voting between set candidates, at least.
September 18 at 3:36pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think voting for an evil man is ridiculous.
September 18 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson: Sed contra: http://www.amazon.com/Cthulhu-President.../dp/B008EWPEA2#
Cthulhu for President. Why Choose the Lesser Evil? Pinback Button
You'll receive one button measuring 2.25 inches. Each...
AMAZON.COM
September 18 at 3:37pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Not if he's less evil than the other candidate.
September 18 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF - I prefer Zod.
September 18 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Yes, Michael Beitia--choosing an evil "man" is silly. This is why the party of Cthulhu guarantees you won't be disappointed by half-measures.
September 18 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/.../e/e0/Vote_quimbya.jpg
IMG3.WIKIA.NOCOOKIE.NET
September 18 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia a two party system is also evil
September 18 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Why DO we have a two party system? (Forgive my ignorance, but I've never understood (a) the reason for it or (b) when/how it got set up that way.)
September 18 at 3:39pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Fine, throw your vote away. I'm still voting for Kodos.
September 18 at 3:40pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley As far as I can tell it's a historical accident
September 18 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my guess is an agreement between the rich white man and the rich white man to maintain rich whiteness
September 18 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov We do the same thing in Canada with a multi-party system, though the two party system probably makes the agreement easier.
September 18 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Rich creamy whiteness... like the middle of a double stuffed oreo
September 18 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF My view is that *all* of the views on tNET are Matthew J. Peterson's personal view. Especially the ones that contradict each other.
September 18 at 10:05pm · Edited · Unlike · 10
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Michael Beitia nice use of the lowercase "t" Joel
September 18 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: Because in a multi-party system, you get to vote for "purer" candidates and parties that clog up the system and promote discord and instability. Heh.
Winner take all elections (especially as regards the presidency) are what dictate or create our mostly two party system (with some marginal third parties that sometimes help change the face of the two parties). The two party system moderates extreme views and forces constantly changing large scale coalitions within the parties, which are simply speaking coalitions that seek to win elections. It helps make large scale republican or popular government possible in the sense that it forces very broad and big coalitions that, as I say, are always changing. It pushes politics towards a "center."
If you had a Prime Minister instead of a President based on votes in parliament, you could have a multi-party system here too. I'm not convinced that would be an improvement.
September 18 at 3:56pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng 18500 comments, what are we talking about these days?
September 18 at 3:55pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson If people understood that parties are simply coalitions to get elected, and that voting is simply about choosing the best possible, and accepted that reality - then we could start to get somewhere.
September 18 at 3:55pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm not sure my views are mainstream enough to really sit comfortably in any coalition in the USA these days.
September 18 at 3:56pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson There is always a better and worse, and closer and farther, and politics is about persuading others and working prudently to move things towards what you see as the good insofar as it is possible.
September 18 at 3:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The parties are like unreal "averages" created to win elections. Most people don't sit comfortably within them. We need to stop thinking about them the way we do: as ideological choices through and through that OUGHT to each be based on clear political philosophies. Most people still view them and voting in a way that prevents realistic engagement with American political life.
September 18 at 4:07pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov The problem wit the United States party system in my opinion is that the two party system worked better as a general position or trend that you wanted the country as a whole to gravitate towards, in this I think you can find more commonality between people . But as the Federal government usurped the minutia of policy that should be in the hands local government it became harder to find that common ground between diverse peoples from different parts of the country.
September 18 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick What's with the disclaimer on the original now? Matthew J. Peterson are you being held responsible for all views expressed here?
September 18 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It's a much too late attempt to ensure my diverse array of friends and colleagues understand -- well, it's probably far too late.
September 18 at 5:16pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia HA! Peterson, you just need to join NPDP. we vote with open windows
September 18 at 5:54pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram So I have now seen the bodies of 4 different incorruptible saints in Rome ALONE and yet I have never seen so many lifeless bodies as I see on TNET.
September 18 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I broke into the Thomist thread. I am selling a new line of wife beaters for tNET. (BTW pretty funny how that ended up on the bash TAC thread.)
September 18 at 7:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can't do it. One infinite thread is enough for me. (and I reeeeealy hate misogyny, especially the religiously justified kind)
September 18 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger only looked at 2 comments.
September 18 at 7:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No time to comment on everything. But a few
1. Jeff, if you murder your spouse in order to marry another, you cannot. That is a diriment impediment to marriage
Can. 1090 §1. Anyone who with a view to entering marriage with a certain person has brought about the death of that person’s spouse or of one’s own spouse invalidly attempts this marriage.
§2. Those who have brought about the death of a spouse by mutual physical or moral cooperation also invalidly attempt a marriage together.
September 18 at 8:12pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Women in combat! Go!
September 18 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz 2. Mrs. Samantha Cohoe and Daniel Lendman, I once too held the one vote per household
Problem is, that disincentives marriage. Better, especially if we agree, for my spouse and I to be separate, and get two votes, than married and get only one...further, while the man is the head of the wife (just quoting scripture there), the whole political structure presumes relating to individuals. I think the desire to respect subsidiarity and family is Lendman's motive, mine too. But that is better down first and foremost in other ways, especially local.
Not to mention the legal issues. If no unmarried persons can vote, well maybe that would work. But if they can, are we using the femme sole, femme covert distinction in law? In which case the wife's say belongs to the husband as the one in charge of her, precisely as her father was, whereas a single woman, a femme sole, would have her own say (and property, etc)...hardly incentive to marry! So forget the easter states and stupid New York laws. California has the common property law. Unlike the subjugated nature in the east coast, our laws treated the spouses as one person, as is especially seen in ownership of property (and that gets complicated, e.g. firearm laws and who owns what), but it is every different than merely placing the woman under a man's custody.
But if so, if they disagree, who gets to punch the ballot? You say the man, as head. Okay, but then the practical difficulty arises, the woman has incentive to be her own person and not marry
Ending woman suffrage would, de facto, be very beneficial but only in the same way that nuking New York and SF and LA would shift American politics...not in its root, but because those happen to be more "liberal" blocs
September 18 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It normalizes violence against women. And therefore is evil. Why would you want women to perform the worst activity of men?
September 18 at 8:21pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict ^that.
September 18 at 8:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is only going to work if I tag all the people who were arguing over on that other thread, but I don't seem to be friends with them.
September 18 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe MAX SUMME, WHEN DID YOU UNFRIEND ME YOU JERK.
September 18 at 8:25pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Max Summe and Evan Dunkel are not your friends?
September 18 at 8:26pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson what other threadt?
September 18 at 8:29pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict THERE IS NO OTHER THREAD
September 18 at 8:29pm · Like · 7
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Evan Dunkel I refuse to be sucked into the Never Ending Thread... This shall be my only post.
September 18 at 8:30pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict This thing has been going for over a month and it's the best thing on facebook. But I understand not following the crowd.
September 18 at 8:32pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #nonconformitygnosis
September 18 at 8:32pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick It's kind of like Facebook, you can only put it off for so long. Eventually everyone joins though.
September 18 at 8:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson pffft... Evan Dunkel, the more you deny tNET, the more you will be drawn into it - your FB being is even now only existing within tNET, regardless of your acknowledgment of the fact.
September 18 at 8:34pm · Like · 3
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Sarah Susanka In 2014, tNET became self aware.
September 18 at 8:55pm · Like · 4
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Max Summe Samantha Cohoe - I didn't?
September 18 at 8:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET has always been self aware, Sarah. It let us become aware of it in 2014
September 18 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Ryan Burke Josh, I sort of want to agree, but I'd hardly call warfare the worst activity of man.
September 18 at 9:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Dunkel's tautological proof for the existence of the thread.
September 18 at 9:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Kenz, did you seriously mean anything you just said about denying women voting rights or any of the other crap about subjugation to her husband?
And you didn't actually think I was serious that murder is more forgivable than bigamy?
September 18 at 9:19pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill As for firearms laws and ownership, what is your point? Clearly you are a gun nut, do you not think that your wife is not a gun nut too?
(All the women in my wife's family are gun fans... To a degree you could never comprehend)
September 18 at 9:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz actually argued against denying women voting rights, albeit circuitously
September 18 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And Max, that's weird, because we definitely used to be friends. I remember because you had a LOT of strong political opinions-- oh. well. this is embarrassing.
September 18 at 9:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We're friends now! All's well that ends well, right? haha. ha. ah.
September 18 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, no, I was just seeing stuff in my feed about your water carbonator the other day, so we must have been friends then, and I definitely didn't unfriend you in the last couple of days, so it WAS you! Proof!
September 18 at 9:34pm · Like
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Max Summe Samantha Cohoe - A long time ago, I was on facebook. Then I was off facebook. Then I was on facebook again. Then I was off facebook... and now I'm on facebook.
So I never unfriended you specifically. Just facebook.
(Also - you can see stuff in a feed that a mutual friend liked. Depending on privacy settings. So that proves nothing.)
If I were going to unfriend you though, it would be because I had a grudge against Caleb Cohoe for the way he used to keep winning sneakily at board games over the summer on campus... But I haven't unfriended him so.... that seems absurd.
September 18 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I wouldn't blame you if you unfriended me for that. Everyone hates Caleb for sneakily winning at board games.
September 18 at 9:45pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill Samantha, Kenz's arguement "for" equality ended when he said he was once against it.
September 18 at 9:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, it clearly wasn't an argument for equality.
September 18 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia politics sucks let's throw them all out windows #PNDPgnosis
September 18 at 9:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Abolish the vote!
September 18 at 9:57pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill My wife was accepted to tac, but chose not to go and instead went to Washington, D.C. To work for congressman Dornan. She has first hand political experience that I do not have and an understanding for hill politics beyond the average American.
As for gun rights and ownership, I'm proud to say she took me on our first date to the shooting range her sister worked and the femAles in her family own the nicest weapons I have ever held.
Your chauvinism is shallow and immature.
September 18 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia name calling Jeffie? It's a little early for that. I think this is more a question of how to emphasize family in the political sphere - not keep women pregnant and barefooted....
September 18 at 10:06pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Is Weinerface Scrotchburger being mean to anyone else on their profile pictures? I knew it was a bad idea to accept his friend request...
September 18 at 10:10pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I did accept it a couple of years ago and he did the Linda Blair on me. Yes bad idea.
September 18 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Jeff. You have got to be kidding. Do you seriously think that the guillotining of the head of household isn't just a modern aberrance?
September 18 at 10:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You survived Weinerface's tNET friend purge?
September 18 at 10:15pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And John, I feel like I never understand what you are talking about.
September 18 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Do you speak in code?
September 18 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #culturaldifferencegnosis
September 18 at 10:16pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict #friendpurgegnosis
September 18 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger If Austen had been barefoot and pregnant we wouldn't have to hold our tongues so much. I mean if she walked the walk, we wouldn't have these contraversies about domestic rabbits.
September 18 at 10:17pm · Like
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Joel HF #gnostic_gnowledge
September 18 at 10:18pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Uh...come again?
September 18 at 10:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Say it in English so I can bite your head off.
September 18 at 10:19pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger and here come the domestiated rabbits to the rescue.
September 18 at 10:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger J.K. . . i guess i am too obcure
September 18 at 10:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger
September 18 at 10:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You better not be calling me a domesticated rabbit. That would be worse than "hip chick," making you worse than Weinerface.
September 18 at 10:24pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #hipchickgnosis
September 18 at 10:26pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe ahhhhh cute. I'm not mad anymore.
September 18 at 10:27pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wait, what are we mad at Josh for? Quoting Canon law or did I miss something?
September 18 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe He's a gender essentialist, and he's only reluctantly in favor of voting rights for women.
September 18 at 10:36pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Sorry, I have zero tolerance for subjugation.
September 18 at 10:36pm · Like
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Max Summe I would like to simply say that the last century has demonstratively made the case against women's suffrage.
* ducks *
September 18 at 10:36pm · Unlike · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh that's nothing new.
As for subjugation that's all over Scripture... now what we understand it to mean though... That's not as clearly stated, however it is part of marriage
September 18 at 10:39pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz I have blocked Jeff...I said nothing about equality or non-equality. I have no stomach to argue against someone who isn't even arguing against me, but is chasing phantoms and burning strawmen. Though I hope the fact that I dislike the "femme covert/femme sole" as opposed to the common property approach (inherited via Spain from visigothic law) would indicate I don't think the husband "owns" his wife. Obviously reverting to that old English law doctrine was something I thought was a negative.
My initial support for voting by household arose solely from the fact that the family is the primary unit of society, rather than the individual. Now either we restrict voting to only family units, specifically in the context of marriage, or we all individuals who aren't married a vote, and families a vote. But if the former, then the family, as a unit, is diminished because whereas before marriage there were two votes, now there is but one.
And in either case, the question must be "who decides the vote" Yes man and woman are as one person, through a moral union. That doesn't mean they agree. And where there is but two, then a majority vote doesn't work...so one must be the decider. I mocked the idea of making the man the decider via the femme sole/femme covert distinction, which treated woman as under her husband, the way a minor female was under her father. Even Aristotle didn't think those "rules" were the same. But even under a different legal doctrine, we hold that "man is the head of the wife." That is simply quoting scripture. So he would end up, practically, having a vote and through marriage woman would lose the vote. Or else women would never have the vote (if the unmarried in general were denied).
Hmm, the fact that I saw this as a problem...yes, my argument was only about incentivising/disincentivising marriage. But it doesn't follow that I secretly harbor a belief that women shouldn't have a say.
These considerations and others forced me to abandon the "respect family as a unit of society by making it the voting unit" approach. If that is sexist, then so be it. I guess everything is sexist.
September 18 at 10:42pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz Ryan Burke. Oh, perhaps that was hyperbolic. War can be done justly. But even then it is one of those uglier things that are sometimes necessary, no?
There are virtues associated with war...bravery for one. And of course, insofar as we speak of those virtues in general, women are capable and should in fact aim at them. But war is still an evil, even if virtuous men must engage in it from time to time.
So maybe not the worst thing men do, but the worst among the sometimes "good" things.
ETA: and certain dispositions, while they may be ordered properly to reason, are certainly less desirable in themselves, though desirable in war, such as aggression, the ability to suspend empathy, etc. Put it this way, the sort of dispositions desirable in a soldier are double-edged things, but even when ordered by virtue they remain less desirable, then say the meekness of Christ.
September 18 at 10:48pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, I was mostly kidding with my above comment. I'm a gender essentialist, too. It's a shameful secret I hide around (non-TAC)academics.
September 18 at 10:46pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Samantha, I wasn't calling you a domesticated rabbit. I was amazed at Joel's rapid response to my silly joke. I don't want to resurrect Austen. But I am pissed that I forgot my thesis regarding her.
September 18 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Ruplinger, I am more progressive than that. Pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen! I am fine if women wear shoes.....
Okay bad joke....I know.
September 18 at 10:50pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I am amenable to feminists in the context of modern culture on many issues, but I also hold that we have indeed unnecessarily diminished masculinity. Most people who say the latter I despise, so I hesitate to say it.
But war is ever present in some form or other, no? Even with ourselves.
September 18 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Shoes are uncomfortable while pregnant and in the kitchen... Well that and they tend to shrink..
September 18 at 10:52pm · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, I wish feminists put their money and focus where their mouth is, as modern culture and college campuses are indeed full of "rape culture." They rarely attack the most obvious targets, however, or the roots causes of violence and injustice against women.
September 18 at 10:52pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz They shrink, or the ankles swell?
September 18 at 10:53pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick The shoes shrink!
September 18 at 10:53pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Matthew J. Peterson, I couldn't agree more... I have seen more of that nastiness in the last 4 weeks than I could have imagined. If one wants to see actual subjugation of women, watch their position in the society that is a college dorm, how they are related to, and how they relate to men in that context. It becomes quite clear how unhealthy the air is for a woman who respects herself...because certainly very few of the men respect her, and the culture of those dorms do not. And in that atmosphere, well I fear for them at times....
September 18 at 10:56pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Put it this way, few Law and Order episodes on the subject, I used to think of as hyperbole...I don't think that anymore.
September 18 at 10:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes and we have to be very very careful of victim blaming, insofar as we're "putting blame" where it is due.
September 18 at 11:15pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund I actually agree with Matthew J. Peterson on multi-party systems being worse than two party systems.
September 18 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Austria is multi-party.
September 18 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund But this would be much better: https://opuspublicum.wordpress.com/.../on-royal-government/
On Royal Government
For the first time ever a French/English edition of Fr. Reginald Garrigrou-Lagrange's essay "On Royal...
OPUSPUBLICUM.WORDPRESS.COM
September 18 at 11:10pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia execute all monarchs. (Sorry Pater)
September 18 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger READ von Luddhin's Equality or Liberty - free at von Mises Inst.
September 18 at 11:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I agree with you abstractly, Pater, but in most practical circumstancs monarchy would result in a step backwards (Mid East excepted).
September 18 at 11:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh what's going on in the Middle East is conservatism at its most pure - conserving the caliphate....
September 18 at 11:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Monarchy is the best form . . . . its not even close. Von Luddhin even as a liberal saw that.
September 18 at 11:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley There's a difference between the claim that "X is the best simply speaking" and "X is the best in such circumstances"
September 18 at 11:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley In most Western Countries, instituting a monarchy would be a step backwards because the people would not accept such a form of government and so it would lead to constant internal strife.
September 18 at 11:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What does backwards mean Edward. What, is Islam backwards or monarchy?
September 18 at 11:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia both, really
September 18 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger late
September 18 at 11:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I mean is that if the US were to become a real kingdom in the next ten years, it would be a bloody mess.
September 18 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (literally)
September 18 at 11:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley (i.e. not figuratively)
September 18 at 11:30pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well, the hatred is more of the name than the reality....which is why the 2nd Roman monarchy named the Emperors rather than kings, and made every pretense of still being the Roman Republic....now that Emperor is a bad name, we just have to get creative
September 18 at 11:31pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Edward, are the people backwards or the regime? And I agree that it cant be imposed.
September 18 at 11:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger late again
September 18 at 11:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Michael, I do encourage you to look at Luddhin. Anarchy doesnt work because it cant.
September 18 at 11:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Once the democratic age falls, monarchy will be restored and not the decrepit sort.
September 18 at 11:36pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But I only see a massive change like that through an age of violence first
September 18 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger democracy ---> tyrrany ... always (as if the 20th century weren't proof enough)
September 18 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Right, Joshua, but not an age. It will be short and it has begun.
September 18 at 11:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pater Edmund: I have some good readings on the two party subject I have to dig out for my syllabus anyhow. Would be interested to hear what you think of them.
We "actually agree." Hah. Have you ever read Hamilton's long speech in the constitutional convention?
September 18 at 11:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahah...monarchy.
I agree with Aristotle. And Plato. And St. Thomas.
September 18 at 11:48pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The President has more power than many a monarch (as opposed to a tyrant), but the trade off is short term elections.
Then again, we are far from a democracy. More like a constitutional gov or polity, even still, that drags towards the corrupt form (democracy).
But we are just as far much farther in terms of corrupt regime forms toward oligarchy than democracy.
Representation itself is aristocratic by nature and corrupts into oligarchy. It's not democratic.
September 18 at 11:53pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson But as Aristotle said, the best possible is to inculcate a neutralizing tension between oligarchy and democracy, which can help a few good citizens shoot for the mean and a true notion of justice in the midst of the messy affairs of humankind.
September 18 at 11:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think any of the trinity I invoked thought monarchy simply speaking was the best possible form of government.
September 18 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You have have to think a bit and dig to see what sort of government we have: on paper and also in the real.
September 18 at 11:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sure. It still would be called a government of the many by Aristotle, as the few must still get majority opinion on their side at some level.
September 18 at 11:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I always thought that the Constitution, while clearly not the product of Thomistic thought, does resemble in many respect's Aquinas' ideal government, as described in the Summa
September 19 at 12:00am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But as to whether it is a good witch or a bad witch, well...let's just say no one during their lifetime, regardless of the underlying form (one, few, or many), thinks the form they are under is the good kind.
September 19 at 12:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jefferson probably read Bellarmine, and they still had vestiges of a scholastic education, both via the Scottish enlightenment guys and their Aristotle and via their Tudor English roots - but yes.
September 19 at 12:01am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson This was a time in which you were accepted to school based on Euclid and Greek and Latin abilities. Madison's logic and rhetoric course started with Aristotle's categories like at TAC - and he wrote against Locke's epistemology.
September 19 at 12:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jefferson mentions Aristotle along with Locke and Sidney.
September 19 at 12:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But what saves it above all is old time religion and long experience. The entire federal Constitution and and the entire Federalist movement is dedicated to countering democracy as a corrupt form with what amounts to polity.
September 19 at 12:05am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson That and people like Hamilton's push for a more mixed regime.
September 19 at 12:06am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Otherwise - how the hell could any republican or democratic form last this long?!? It's an amazing anomaly. And Christians will be sad and look back at the moment longingly when it's gone.
September 19 at 12:07am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson
September 19 at 12:07am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Wish I was in Pater Edmund's neck of the woods for some real beer.
September 19 at 12:08am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz I think the government we got has often been better than the "ideal" of even many of the founding fathers, particularly Jefferson and Madison (on the issue of religion certainly). Perhaps the familiarity with the classics helps explain that
But frankly I think the mass of people were more "conservative" and certainly more religious than most of the founding fathers....that certainly had some (beneficial) effect.
September 19 at 12:13am · Like
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John Ruplinger Well, it seems to me that Rome is the best comparative for our government. As to Aristotle, Plato and Aquinas endorsing ours as best, that requires a rather selective reading and a curious application but I am pretty rusty there.
September 19 at 12:17am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well, only in a certain respect
I answer that, Two points are to be observed concerning the right ordering of rulers in a state or nation. One is that all should take some share in the government: for this form of constitution ensures peace among the people, commends itself to all, and is most enduring, as stated in Polit. ii, 6. The other point is to be observed in respect of the kinds of government, or the different ways in which the constitutions are established. For whereas these differ in kind, as the Philosopher states (Polit. iii, 5), nevertheless the first place is held by the "kingdom," where the power of government is vested in one; and "aristocracy," which signifies government by the best, where the power of government is vested in a few. Accordingly, the best form of government is in a state or kingdom, where one is given the power to preside over all; while under him are others having governing powers: and yet a government of this kind is shared by all, both because all are eligible to govern, and because the rules are chosen by all. For this is the best form of polity, being partly kingdom, since there is one at the head of all; partly aristocracy, in so far as a number of persons are set in authority; partly democracy, i.e. government by the people, in so far as the rulers can be chosen from the people, and the people have the right to choose their rulers. (St. I-II q. 105 a. 1 co)
September 19 at 12:21am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I didn't say anything about those cats endorsing ours as best. I just said monarchy simpliciter supporters they were not.
September 19 at 7:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson True about the religiosity of the people - of which many intellectuals today are entirely ignorant. New England laws were over a century old and devoted unabashedly to virtue by the time of the revolution.
September 19 at 12:27am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But even the most unorthodox of elites like Jefferson thought reason proved the existence of God and the virtues known by reason largely overlapped with the virtues of Christianity.
September 19 at 12:28am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson He was mad that priests taught superstition and faith when God could be proved via reason. Hah.
September 19 at 12:29am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So you had a recognition even among most elite enlightenment types here that the ethics and virtue of religion and reason largely overlapped and that "pure democracy" was a bad thing and needed serious mitigation.
September 19 at 12:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson
September 19 at 12:33am · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua, that needs a lot more fleshing out. I have no problem with what is said there. I DO have a problem saying that ours is the application of what Aquinas says. Matthew, you are compelling me to do some rereading and new reading. I may do so. . . maybe starting Sunday.So thanks.
September 19 at 12:44am · Like
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John Ruplinger Has anyone read Aquinas' treatise on monarchy?
September 19 at 12:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger Mixed governments aren't bad. But they do need to be mixed. Medieval governance was often more mixed than ours.
September 19 at 12:54am · Like
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Joshua Kenz We read On Kingship at TAC...and I have read is a half a dozen times since
September 19 at 1:15am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange's introduction to On Kingship has now been translated. I linked it above, but here it is again: https://opuspublicum.files.wordpress.com/.../lagrange-on...
September 19 at 1:32am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Matthew J. Peterson: I remember reading a good speech by Hamilton where he talks about how the president should be elected for life (if I remember rightly; at least for a long time).
September 19 at 1:36am · Unlike · 5
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Artur Sebastian Rosman Bless their hearts.
September 19 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson He made that speech (saying out loud that the British form of gov at the was best in the world - not a popular opinion) and then left the convention to pay bills back home with his law practice. Not a landed wealthy type.
But many think he did it on purpose to make Madison's proposals look palatable and more moderate by comparison, and I think they must be right. Shortly after this the convention moved in Madison's direction.
September 19 at 1:42am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund https://twitter.com/BuckeyeinIdaho/status/512831269797756928
Ross Cunningham on Twitter: "God Save the Queen and God Save the United Kingdom! Now let's work...
When you tweet with a location, Twitter stores that location. You can switch location on/off before each Tweet and always have the option to delete your location history. Learn more
TWITTER.COM|BY ROSS CUNNINGHAM
September 19 at 1:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and Franklin wanted two heads of state elected for one year, a la the Roman model
September 19 at 8:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe 55% vs 45% It wasn't even that close. Quebec got a lot closer in 95.
September 19 at 8:49am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You monarchists are adorable.
September 19 at 9:29am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if adorably wrong.
gimme an H!
gimme an E!
gimme a G!
gimme an E!
gimme an L!
September 19 at 9:32am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia for monarchists:
http://www.taleswithmorals.com/aesop-fable-the-frogs...
The Frogs Desiring a King an Aesop's Fable
Visit this site dedicated to providing Free Aesop's Fables for kids including The Frogs Desiring a King. Free version...
TALESWITHMORALS.COM
September 19 at 10:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger My authority for kingly rule is Monsieur Rip van Winkle. It is much more compatable with leisure: sitting in the shade, pipe smoking, unfrenetic discussion, and sipping beer. Rip for peasant!
September 19 at 11:03am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia see that's the problem I always have with monarchists. They seem to assume that they are the aristocracy and not the dirt farmer who lives and dies in squalor.
September 19 at 10:54am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And really, no American has any cause to assume that. If you're here, it's because your ancestors were having a lousy time in the old country under the monarchs.
September 19 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #immigrationgnosis
September 19 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Michael, your view of kingship is maimed by centuries of Jacobin propoganda. Indeed the most tyrranical monarchs in past ages - and there were some douzies - don't come close to some modern totalitarian "democracies". But just keep dreaming anarchy . . . . just how does that work again?
September 19 at 10:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia which anarchy are you talking about?
September 19 at 10:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that's why we need balance of powers and the rule of law-- nobody is advocating totalitarianism.
September 19 at 11:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia (and my view of kingship is maimed by years of reading history)
September 19 at 11:01am · Like
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John Ruplinger rip was not aristocrat. Nor have I any such ambition . . .at all. Nor do I imagine it to be a panacea or perfection.
September 19 at 11:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia any utopian dream is a failure from the get go, whether it be anarchism, monarchy, or representative democracy
September 19 at 11:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia which is probably why Peterson keeps advocating the 'Merican regime. as the least awful of crapulent choices.
September 19 at 11:04am · Like
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John Ruplinger fixed
September 19 at 11:04am · Like
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Isak Benedict Faculty seminar on the Crito this afternoon. I plan on being provocative.
September 19 at 11:18am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I think the Crito is one of the most difficult of the dialogues. It is deceptively simple. Anyone have a definitive take on it?
September 19 at 11:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There are no definitive takes on Plato.
September 19 at 11:23am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #straussgnosis
September 19 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, Michael you should know that Pater Edmund is perfectly just in assuming that he is in the aristocracy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Waldstein
House of Waldstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The House of Waldstein (Czech: Valdštejnové) is a Czech noble family, originally from the old early mediaeval Bohemian clan Markvartici. Formerly a poor and less significant family, it gradually acquired large properties in the territory of the Crown of Bohemia (especially in Bohemia and Moravia), r…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 19 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm Basque. We're all nobility
September 19 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Your Basque?!?! Really?
September 19 at 11:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is so cool!
September 19 at 11:53am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Just like d'Artagnan!!!
September 19 at 11:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Basque are one of the strangest groups of people on earth in terms of genetics and language.
September 19 at 11:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Strangest and most fascinating.
September 19 at 11:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia don't I know it. You should go to a cultural fesitval
September 19 at 11:54am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The Basque language isn't derived from the Indo-European mother language.
September 19 at 11:56am · Like
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Michael Beitia I know my grandparents speak it.
September 19 at 11:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I have a dictionary at home, but I can't pronounce it
September 19 at 11:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That's awesome!
September 19 at 11:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman You would be cooler if you could speak it.
September 19 at 11:58am · Like
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Michael Beitia I can say "where is the bathroom", count to 20, and "poor man with loose pants" which is idiomatic for pathetic. My grandmother used to say it to us when we were kids and injured....
September 19 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, that's cool.
September 19 at 12:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's weird. What's it related to, then? Anything?
September 19 at 12:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This excerpt from Wikipedia basically argues that Basque is a stone aged language:
Though geographically surrounded by Indo-European Romance languages, Basque is classified as a language isolate. It is the last remaining descendant of the pre-Indo-European languages of Western Europe.[6] Consequently, its prehistory may not be reconstructible by means of the comparative method except by applying it to differences between dialects within the language. Little is known of its origins but it is likely that an early form of the Basque language was present in Western Europe before the arrival of the Indo-European languages to the area.
Authors such as Miguel de Unamuno and Louis Lucien Bonaparte have noted that the words for "knife" (aizto), "axe" (aizkora) and "hoe" (aitzur) derive from the word for "stone" (haitz), and have therefore concluded that the language dates to the Stone Age, when those tools were made of stone;[9][10] others find this unlikely; see the aizkora controversy.
Latin inscriptions in Aquitania preserve a number of words with cognates in reconstructed proto-Basque, for instance the personal names Nescato and Cison (neskato and gizon mean "young girl" and "man" respectively in modern Basque). This language is generally referred to as Aquitanian and is assumed to have been spoken in the area before the Roman conquests in the western Pyrenees. Some authors even argue that the language moved westward during Late Antiquity, after the fall of Rome, into the northern part of Hispania in which Basque is spoken today.[6]
Roman neglect of this area allowed Aquitanian to survive while the Iberian and Tartessian languages became extinct. Through the long contact with Romance languages, Basque adopted a sizable number of Romance words. Initially the source was Latin, later Gascon (a branch of Occitan) in the northeast, Navarro-Aragonese in the southeast and Spanish in the southwest.
September 19 at 12:02pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is classed as "Lingua Isolate"
September 19 at 12:02pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Or something like that.
September 19 at 12:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Woah, cool.
September 19 at 12:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That is so awesome.
September 19 at 12:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Lingua Isolate." I learned something today.
September 19 at 12:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there are varying dialects within the Basque region. My grandfather is from Gipuzkoa, which is supposed to be the most "pure" linguistically
September 19 at 12:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there was my giant Basque flag flying in the 300 dorm, back in the day....
September 19 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Isak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate
Language isolate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A language isolate, in the absolute sense, is a natural language with no demonstrable genealogical (or "genetic") relationship with other languages, one that has not been demonstrated to descend from an ancestor common with any other language. Language isolates are in effect language families consis…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 19 at 12:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe How Basque are you? 100%? I'll be disappointed if it's less than 100%
September 19 at 12:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 50%
September 19 at 12:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia be disappointed
September 19 at 12:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe so disappointing
September 19 at 12:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, is Beitia at least a Basque name?
September 19 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman People with Basque descent move their eyes differently when they try to remember something, also.
September 19 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe shut up. that's not real.
September 19 at 12:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It's true.
September 19 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes. it means "down"
September 19 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it is also the most common Basque surname, but it is usually mixed with other words.
September 19 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Lendman is full of the crap. Beitia is Basque and fibs all the time and his telltale eye movements are totally normal
September 19 at 12:10pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Madinabeitia is common, yes?
September 19 at 12:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think most people look up and to the left when they try to remember something from "long term" memory. Basque, I think, look the opposite way.
September 19 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jehoshaphat, they don't know me like you do.....
September 19 at 12:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia fyi:
http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/B/beitia.html
Buber's Basque Page: Beitia
Buber's Basque Page, Basque history, language, culture, sports, food, Blas' biography and a description of research
BUBER.NET
September 19 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and I highly suggest those with small children teach them "Basque Santa"
September 19 at 12:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No. I don't lie to my children.
September 19 at 12:16pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, 'cause Santa is not Basque. He's Turkish.
September 19 at 12:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Santa ruins Christmas. I hate Santa.
September 19 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante such a Protestant, Samantha!
September 19 at 12:22pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Nobody wants to fight about Santa?
September 19 at 12:49pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Knowing nearly nothing about the Basque, TNET continues to remain weird and interesting
September 19 at 12:50pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Do you guys think that the arguments Socrates makes to Crito for why he should remain in prison and not try to escape are convincing arguments? What do you think he is up to?
September 19 at 12:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #basquegnosis
September 19 at 12:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Basque santa is a drunken evil giant that eats bad children. Much nicer than a bishop flying around depositing presents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olentzero
Olentzero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Olentzero (Basque pronunciation: [olents̻eɾo]) is a Basque Christmas tradition. According to Basque traditions...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 19 at 1:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia disclaimer: we never did Santa at my house.
September 19 at 1:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This #Xgnosis thing should be getting old by now, but somehow it continues to delight me.
September 19 at 1:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it never gets old to me #hashtaggnosis
September 19 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I agree that Santa ruins Christmas (especially the American Santa invented by Coca-Cola advertisements), but isn't there a way of having similar figures (eg. St Nicholas and Krampus) that is not a lie? Figurative speech and all that?
September 19 at 1:08pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund As Michael Beitia would say, I have a link for everything: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../lying-to-children.../
Lying to Children; or Edward Feser at the Battle of Solferino
In an excellent series of blog posts Edward Feser has...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
September 19 at 1:09pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know, Pater, my kids are very good at distinguishing fable from fact.
September 19 at 1:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I don't agree that there is ever a time that children think dolls are as real as their brothers and sisters.
September 19 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Children are good at pretending, but they know when they are pretending.
September 19 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Those of us with children near the puberty line have to know what is appropriate to explain without lying, but still at an age appropriate level. That is a difficult task
September 19 at 1:16pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Also, if you tell your kids that St. Nicholas is coming to fill the shoes with candy, what is figurative about that?
September 19 at 1:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia isn't anyone going to read about Olentzero
September 19 at 1:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't see how it's figuratively true any more than it is literally true.
September 19 at 1:20pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick We never did Santa... I don't think we missed out on anything. Though it was amusing when my aunt had to tell my 5 year old brother not to ruin her 12 year old daughter's last year of believing in Santa. Though I think the gifts left in our stockings may have given her a clue (she got a disc man, we had Oranges, toothbrushes and a movie.)
September 19 at 1:21pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the hardest for us was having my blabber-mouthed second son not ruining it for other kids at school. (he takes after me)
September 19 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I'm glad there are moms who fret about Santa in the world. That sounds condescending, but I mean it in the best way.
September 19 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund St Nicolas is the occasion of one's parents filling one's shoes. So the figure is occasion for cause, as in "Christmas fills the shops."
September 19 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And why is that more exciting than saying "we celebrate St. Nicholas's day by putting candy in your shoes!"
September 19 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ?
September 19 at 1:25pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick The other kids never believed me... But I guess it was 12-1 ...
September 19 at 1:25pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Why are figures of speech ever more exciting?
September 19 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Nope. It isn't more exciting because it's a figure of speech. It's more exciting because they believe something that isn't true, which you intended them to believe
September 19 at 1:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think if there is some distant sense in which what you are saying is true, but it isn't the sense you intend to convey, and it isn't the sense in which it is believed, then it's a lie
September 19 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund As a child I never experienced it as a lie.
September 19 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia really Pater? I was pissed when I found out I was lied to.
September 19 at 1:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know lots of former kids who felt lied to, and lots who didn't. Doesn't really change the facts, though. If you were lied to, you were whether you felt deceived or not, right?
September 19 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund But the question is whether I was lied to or not. The fact that I never experienced it as a lie is not proof but it is evidence.
September 19 at 1:32pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Some parents take it way to far. We always talked about the toothfairy but always knew it was just mom and dad...
September 19 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I agree with Lauren.
September 19 at 1:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger leprechons are ok, but that's bc they are real.
September 19 at 1:36pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I think intending to deceive your child is taking it too far. If you're telling a story, and everybody kinda knows it's a story, that's fine. My eldest is pretty literal minded. He would want to pin us down on the details.
September 19 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Yes, I agree on that. My parents never tried to deceive us about St Nicolas.
September 19 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, what did they say, exactly?
September 19 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe btw, I like that no one is even trying to defend Santa
September 19 at 1:39pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe He's the worst
September 19 at 1:39pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund They told a story and everyone kind knew it was a story.
September 19 at 1:40pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, well, no wonder you didn't feel lied to then
September 19 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Daniel Frederick Benedict Grimm what do you think?
September 19 at 1:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Pater Edmund, way, way back in the infancy of TNET you mentioned being possibly amenable to elevating the status of The Great Gatsby to Great Book. I've simply not had time to formulate a small defense of the work as such until now, so at risk of derailing the #santagnosis, here are some somewhat formed thoughts about it.
1. Let me state up front that my usual response when I hear someone refer to a character as a "Christ figure" or a trial as "Passion like" is to roll my eyes. Often this is an example of lazy thinking, since any story at all about a heroic character or a personal sacrifice will draw automatic comparisons to the greatest story ever told, and as such, does not usually help us truly understand the character being thus compared to Christ. That said, I think this may be one of the cases where it is in fact worthwhile to make such a comparison.
2. In "The Life You Save May Be Your Own," Flannery O'Connor describes the figure of Shiftlet (who ends up as another one of her "weird bringers of grace" to others) standing at the end of the driveway as forming "a crooked cross." I believe that in a similar fashion, Fitzgerald intended to portray Gatsby as a sort of "crooked Christ." Here follow a few examples of support.
3. The language used to describe the life and death of Gatsby is sacramental. Gatsby is referred to explicitly as a Son of God, but a self-made one. The moment he truly changes from Gatz to Gatsby is when he kisses Daisy for the first time, and Fitzgerald's exact phrasing is "the incarnation was complete." [SPOILERS] After the murder-suicide that ends the novel, when the bodies of Wilson and Gatsby are found, the exact phrasing Fitzgerald uses parallels the former - "the holocaust was complete." He is using holocaust here in the sense of "sacrifice."
4. Consider the facts leading up to and including Gatsby's death. He decides to use his pool for the first time all year, and blows up an air mattress to float on. He picks it up and bears it to the pool on his shoulder. He stumbles under its weight at one point, and his chauffeur offers to lend him a hand, and Gatsby merely shakes his head in refusal and moves on towards the pool. I think this is an obvious slanted reference to Simon helping Christ. Furthermore - Christ dies on a wooden cross. Gatsby dies on an air mattress. It's a twisted, slanted, not-quite-exact and frankly Wal-marty version of Christ's death.
5. It is common and easy to claim that Fitzgerald was writing his masterpiece MERELY as a critique of the current wealthy elite. It's more than that. Christ died to save humanity. Gatsby died because he lied to protect Daisy. It is easy to say that Daisy is an object unworthy of Gatsby's love. It is harder to say that we are like Daisy, unworthy of a love like Gatsby's, unworthy of a love like Christ's. Obviously Gatsby is not a perfect person. But just as one could argue cosmically that Christ throws Himself away for something not worth it, but that He nevertheless loves madly, one could argue that in a slanted way Fitzgerald was writing not about a single wealthy culture of a single time, but of humanity in general, by showing a great man like Gatsby throwing himself away for a wretch like Daisy that he nevertheless loves madly. We like to identify with Gatsby, we like to identify with Nick - we should be identifying ourselves with Daisy. I do not believe that the title of the book is ironic.
6. These thoughts are messy and partially formed, so I would be glad to modify them, clarify them, or retract them if there is evidence.
What does TNET think? It's been ages since we talked about this.
September 19 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund There's the bell Compline, I'll read your Gatsby thing tomorrow.
September 19 at 1:46pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict NOOOOOOOO
September 19 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Okay pray for us
September 19 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia good luck finding it tomorrow
September 19 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #suspiciouslyconvenienttiminggnosis
September 19 at 1:47pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe What makes Gatsby great?
September 19 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe He's good at making money, and he loves Daisy. That's it.
September 19 at 1:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And he throws a good party, obviously.
September 19 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well that's exactly it. I'm saying it's ironically his love for Daisy that makes him great.
September 19 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well that and his personal integrity, which is admittedly not uncompromised.
September 19 at 1:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's always entirely possible that I'm seeing in the novel what I want to see. Nevertheless I think my evidence needs to be considered.
September 19 at 1:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not convinced about the personal integrity, but I like the rest of your reading.
September 19 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger All right. I really need to hold my tongue just because I can't finish certain books.
September 19 at 2:15pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia #integritygnosis?
September 19 at 2:12pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Yeah as far as I can see there are two possible grounds on which to criticize him. First, the method by which he obtained his wealth was illegal bootlegging. Although we objectively consider Prohibition unreasonable and the consumption of alcohol lawful, his involvement in the criminal world is still apparently reprehensible.
Second, he doesn't respect the lawful marriage of Daisy and Tom. Going along with my semi-allegorical interpretation, Daisy wedded to Tom is humanity wedded to the world, and Gatsby seeking to take Daisy from him is Christ seeking to free humanity from the world's influence.
Bear in mind that I am not claiming this to be the "main" or "central" point of the book. It's primarily a fantastic story, about people as real as can be written; secondarily a story of modern cosmic sacrifice.
September 19 at 2:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Not sure I understand your comment, John. Why don't you like the book?
September 19 at 2:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger cosmic sacrifice? Definition anyone?
September 19 at 2:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Meaning merely that Gatsby's death bears universal significance.
September 19 at 2:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger well. You are getting me to consider reading TGG again.
September 19 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict That is truly my only goal!
September 19 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I hope I didn't break TNET with that long bit of Gatsby recurrence.
September 19 at 2:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe tNET is not dead, but sleeping
September 19 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Isak, I hate to be a stickler, but it has been decided that the initial "t" in tNET is lowercase. that is all.
September 19 at 3:02pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Really? Must have missed the memo
September 19 at 3:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't think I like that
September 19 at 3:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia our favorite compline-ite objected to "the" having a letter, others preferred the sci-fi sound of it.
September 19 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You weren't here, so you didn't get a vote. Sorry. tNET's polling hours are short.
September 19 at 3:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia unlike the trolling hours, which are 24/7
September 19 at 3:08pm · Unlike · 6
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Isak Benedict I think it mirrors the iPhone and iPad nonsense, which bugs me for some reason
September 19 at 3:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [t]NET. Pater has a pet peeve about acronyms but especially acronymizing the definite article. Causes him to cause all kinds of problems at the monastery i hear.
September 19 at 8:52pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger late again
September 19 at 3:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it may mirror iPhone et al. but it is better than typing out The Neverending Thread
September 19 at 3:13pm · Like
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Isak Benedict t'NET
September 19 at 3:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sounds like a football player: D'Brickshaw
September 19 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe no apostrophe. polling hours are over.
September 19 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley While we're nitpicking about acronyms, neverending is one word.
September 19 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley TNT is such an explosive acronym.
September 19 at 3:28pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia it is but I can't spell Toluene
September 19 at 3:28pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti People who tell their kids that there is no Santa Claus and dislike The Great Gatsby are history's greatest monsters. If you felt "lied to" by you parents when you found out there was no Santa, might I suggest that there are other issues at play that a professional might help you work through.
September 19 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Oh I've worked through those issues. And we didn't tell the kids that there was no Santa, we just didn't *do* the Santa thing.
September 19 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, yeah. I should definitely see a professional. I'm not gonna deny that.
September 19 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm 43 and the oldest of seven. My dad STILL won't admit that there is no Santa, and it's hilarious. We DO Santa, and it's the best thing going.
September 19 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe your dad is a LIAR. he sounds nice, though.
September 19 at 3:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we finally found a Santa-supporter! Good news!
September 19 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe How do false beliefs about an old fat guy distributing presents increase kids' wonder at the Incarnation?
September 19 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I also feel lied to about global Capitalism. they didn't tell me that little slave kids made my He-Man dolls.....
September 19 at 3:41pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I think it's cool that I called Aaron's dad a liar, since he called us history's greatest monsters. but I'll totally apologize if you like.
September 19 at 3:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil I am mildly pro-Santa (I think it's a nuanced issue), and find the history of the Father Christmas tradition pretty interesting, but unfortunately can't post much about it because I have to get ready for my sister's rehearsal dinner. Maybe we can revisit it later?
September 19 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe NOW
September 19 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET never revisits. . .
September 19 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jeanne's getting married?
September 19 at 3:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You can't be talking about Cecelia, she's 10 still, right?
September 19 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma I tell my boys that Sinterklaas is real and so is Zwarte Piet.
See Translation
September 19 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Especially Zwarte Piet, because if they're bad they'll get taken back to Spain, and everyone knows that is pretty close to hell.
September 19 at 3:45pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Kinda old, but it may be one of the last Zwarte Piet songs for a while:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LurEuv7LjMU
Zwarte Pieten Stijl - Nederlandse Gangnam Style
Follow!: Like us on FACEBOOK: http://on.fb.me/1usxPYQ
YOUTUBE.COM
September 19 at 3:45pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: yes, Jeanne. Cecelia is 18, which seems pretty old, but is still probably too young to get married.
September 19 at 3:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Best wishes to her! I'm relieved it's not Cecelia, that would make me feel old.
September 19 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Olentzero would eat Zwarte Piet
September 19 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF tNET comes from tMG, who long predate iPhone, iPod, etc.
September 19 at 4:05pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, hey, Joel, I believe John called you a "domesticated rabbit" last night. You should fight him.
September 19 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger domestiated i believe.
September 19 at 4:02pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Michael, TNET ALWAYS revisits (eternal return...). Or, if you like, it never revisits because it never unvisits.
September 19 at 4:03pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Also, I don't like tNET. I'm a disciple of the school of TNET. We have tradition on our side.
September 19 at 4:03pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger and I have a fear of rabbits ever since I saw that Monty Python horror scene.
September 19 at 4:03pm · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma tHE dOG rETURNS tO iTS vOMIT
September 19 at 4:04pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Also, to speak of polling hours is to make TNET a democracy, which I think we can all agree is false.
September 19 at 4:04pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Only top ten commenters get a vote, so it's an oligarchy.
September 19 at 4:05pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger FKATNET or [t]NET
September 19 at 4:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Aristocracy. Clearly none of us have any wealth to speak of.
September 19 at 4:07pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Aristocracy, please. Unless I'm not in the top 10.
September 19 at 4:08pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Edward Langley where's the data?
September 19 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, tNET straight up doesn't make any sense.
September 19 at 4:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I think we should appoint faux-bureaucratic positions for the top ten commenters.
September 19 at 4:10pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Olentzero looks like he drank everything in Spain.
September 19 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson But that would make PereScott something like VP....
September 19 at 4:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Nah it's not based on volume, but quality. So he's the janitor. I want him cleaning out my toilets.
September 19 at 4:11pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ostracized. Back in ten years.
September 19 at 4:11pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I want him cleaning out my toilets in bathrooms well stocked with toilet paper made of pages from that stupid bestiary of his.
September 19 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson You have a very detailed idea of this faux-bureaucracy.
September 19 at 4:14pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Isak, what ever happened to bearing his offspring. . . how's that working? Still friends?
September 19 at 4:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Did you read his bestiary? I did not. Was it amusing?
September 19 at 4:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I would like to be Consul. Michael can be Tribune of the Plebs. Isak can be tNET's poet laureate.
September 19 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson should be Censor, and probably also Mr. Kenz.
September 19 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Being anti-Santa is ham fisted humorlessness masquerading as piety. Samantha Cohoe, it does nothing to reinforce the mystery of the incarnation. So what?
September 19 at 4:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So it's a big distraction from the actual importance of Christmas.
September 19 at 4:27pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Must every waking moment of Christmas be spent discussing the incarnation? Do you ONLY talk about the incarnation at a Christmas party, or do you socialize? What about tree trimming? Is that too big of a distraction? Santa is a fun thing that keeps kids entertained during Christmastime. Objecting to it is reactionary and silly.
September 19 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The data must be delayed . . .
September 19 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I like to do all manner of festive things that celebrate Jesus's birth, including tree trimming and parties and whatnot. That's just part of the party. I don't see Santa that way. To me, it seems to truly make Christmas about something else.
September 19 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Plus there's the lying part.
September 19 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I guess Ed should be the Quaestor, since he is keeper of the stats.
September 19 at 4:41pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti It's not lying. It's fooling around. When we go camping I tell my kids to look for fairies. Am I a liar? This strained rejection of fantasy and play smells slightly of Jansenism. But this thread is made up of alumni of an institution that employs "prefects" to ferret out the sinful behavior of their classmates, so I guess I'm not surprised.
September 19 at 4:46pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I think I'm probably a Jansenist. I like fantasy and play, though. There's a big difference between fantasy and play and legitimately trying to deceive one's children. I admit Santa can be done in an innocuous way that's probably fun for some people. But it's often just straight lies.
September 19 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I wish I had carried around a trained ferret with me when I was a prefect. That would have been fantastic.
September 19 at 4:50pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I would have used it like a drug sniffing dog to "ferret out" sinful behavior. They would all have feared me and my ferret.
September 19 at 4:51pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson His name would be Jansen.
September 19 at 4:51pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson "What's that Jansen?"
[excited ferret noises]
Morgan I Branch isn't back to the dorm yet and it's past curfew?!
September 19 at 4:55pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I note that no one has objected to my nomination of myself as Consul of tNET, so I'm just going to call it.
September 19 at 4:55pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson You have said so...
September 19 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick At least prefects are not sneaky like at other colleges.... Or not as sneaky...
September 19 at 4:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I know LOTS of parents that do insist on the Santa myth, who would be less offended if you told their kid you didn't believe in Jesus...think about that. I can say, I don't believe in God or Jesus to children with less risk of an angry parent than disbelieving in Santa.
If one does the Santa thing, then at least make it actual St. Nick...he didn't have no wife.
September 19 at 4:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Somebody can be my coconsul if they speak up fast.
September 19 at 4:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I nominate Michael Beitia
September 19 at 4:58pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe No Mr. Kenz, he's Tribune of the Plebs.
September 19 at 4:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Make my kid doubt Santa... You evil villain!!! Place doubt in their mind about Christ or God... no big deal, you don't want your kids living in a bubble now do you?!
September 19 at 4:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That whole spy routine that crops up now and again that Aaron Gigliotti is referring to is infuriating.
Institutions are better off paying close attention to helping students who exhibit signs they need help. You'd curb a lot of shenanigans that way.
But the tattle tale stuff is infrequent and comes and goes in cycles - or at least it used to.
September 19 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I just finished being a prefect there, and there was not any tattling, nor really any "ferreting" to speak of.
September 19 at 5:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe BTW, I am Caesar. That means my Coconsul is Pompey and we will later fight a great war, which I will win.
September 19 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Who wants to be Brutus?
September 19 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe John, you can be Cato.
September 19 at 5:03pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No prefect ferreted out sinful behavior while I was there! Heck I was suite mates with a prefect, and kept a whole stock of bottles visible as soon as you opened the bathroom door...bourbon mostly
In all seriousness, the one prefect that tried to be too nosy had a massive backlash iirc.
September 19 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I get stuck in traffic driving home from work and you've all doled out the honors without my input? I am ashamed of all of you.
September 19 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I made you Tribune of the Plebs. Be grateful
September 19 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti The nice thing about being a prefect is that you don't have to waste time at Mass craning your neck to see who's sitting out communion. Matthew J. Peterson, I have heard really creepy stories about prefects.
September 19 at 5:05pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson I'm not even sure how we ended up using the Roman system.
September 19 at 5:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe that probably makes you Marc Antony, by the way.
September 19 at 5:05pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But I cannot speak for every prefect especially the girls, despite having slept in every dorm (St. Therese was the nicest)
September 19 at 5:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because it's the best and the funnest!
September 19 at 5:06pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Aaron has heard stories! Eww, how exciting!
September 19 at 5:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Since Caesar made Marc Anthony a Tribune of the Plebs. So you'll have to avenge me later, fyi, Michael
September 19 at 5:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson keeping an aquatic mammal, you know for personal use... inside city limits.... that ain't legal neither dude.
September 19 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Aaron, perhaps that's true (no one during my time would have done it), but don't think of it as the norm. Most prefects are just normal students.
September 19 at 5:07pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well the prefect I roomed with never gave out an hour... And she didn't like the thought of me coming through our window and having to give me one either ...
September 19 at 5:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I got tackled by two prefects half drunk trying to sneak into the dorm at 3 in the morning. After the wrestling we realized we were all locked out....
September 19 at 5:07pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson While there are occasionally over-zealous prefects, to say that the school hires them to ferret out sinners or do anything of the kind is garbage.
September 19 at 5:08pm · Unlike · 1
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Sam Rocha I like where this is going...
September 19 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The prefects were pretty ok when I was there, I thought, except about the dress code.
September 19 at 5:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia some people are just jerks, and some jerks get authority
September 19 at 5:08pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Nobody wants to be Coconsul? This can be the early years. We don't have to turn on each other for a while.
September 19 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Samantha, what I object to is you automatically treating me like an inferior.
September 19 at 5:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll be proconsul of my own thread.
September 19 at 5:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Whatever. tNET will just have to conquer your thread.
September 19 at 5:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not if I'm proconsul. . .
September 19 at 5:10pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Oh, proconsul, eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, then? By exploiting the workers! By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society!
September 19 at 5:11pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz BTW, before I scandalize anyone two of the female dorms were unoccupied and I was exhausted and on break while working in them, by myself. The other one, well all the occupants were either working or out at the moment and I was working in that dorm, and I thought, wow if I took a nap I could get reactions from people by saying I had slept in all the girls' dorms...do I did...
September 19 at 5:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Yeah, I'll go to my own thread and dominate everyone there!!! Bwahahahahahaa
September 19 at 5:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As long as you remain under the rule of tNET and send regular tribute
September 19 at 5:12pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
September 19 at 5:12pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti So what do they want t prefects to do?
September 19 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
September 19 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have no idea, Aaron. Mostly give me shit about my foul mouth, I think
September 19 at 5:12pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha
September 19 at 5:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Prefects are glorified RA's...and I would take the hours (never got one myself...despite all my attempts to goad them) over the massive fines at other schools
September 19 at 5:14pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia I got hours, I just never did them. The cook, Todd, used to smoke cigarettes out back with me instead
September 19 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe the top twenty commenters can be Roman citizens, and the rest of you are conquered subjects.
September 19 at 5:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha
September 19 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I note that no one seems to find this Roman thing as fun as I do. I guess it's because I already called Ceasar.
September 19 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Heck, at USC if you lock yourself out of your room the 2nd time, $25 fine. Oh its your 4th time, that is a $75 fine....really clumsy aren't you, this is your 7th time, $150 fine for unlocking your door. Oh, your guest lost his pass and wants his ID back? $75 fine!
Heck we didn't even fine you that much if you smoked in the dorm ! (and that was the only fine I remember)
September 19 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti And yet, Michael Beitia, you won't let your poor children enjoy Kris Kringle.
September 19 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Aaron, there are rules that need to be upheld if the community is going to maintain its integrity, and it's better if they come from the student body. I'm not saying I loved or agreed with all the rules (even as a prefect), but as a whole they are very beneficial to the program.
September 19 at 5:17pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I feel like a failure by graduating without an hour or encounter with a prefect...
September 19 at 5:17pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia My kids and I enjoy a lot of things.
September 19 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia lots of fantastical things.
September 19 at 5:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we've seen every episode of Dr. Who from the first to the fifth doctor
September 19 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia we've read Tolkien aloud
September 19 at 5:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia we even made a totem pole once:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220031034705954&set=pb.100000971786144.-2207520000.1411161550.&type=3&theater
Michael Beitia
found picture
September 19 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Well, those SC fines are stupid, too.
September 19 at 5:20pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I should add that that assumes good and moderate enforcement of the rules. They're easy to take to stupid extremes, but when enforced moderately and common sensically aren't weird or extreme.
September 19 at 5:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Sean Robertson Also, I realize that trying to defend the rules probably makes you think that I was one of those uptight prefects, but that wasn't the case. I tried my best to be as chill as possible while actually doing the job I was being paid to do. Most of the prefects I knew were the same.
September 19 at 5:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Since Daniel Lendman is probably sleeping, and can't protest, he gets to be Pompeius Magnus! Haha.
September 19 at 5:22pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson As (probably) the youngest TNET contributor, does that make me Octavian?
September 19 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sure. Sounds good.
September 19 at 5:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That means you and Beitia get to rule when I am murdered.
September 19 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson That means I get a glorious 40 year reign and to live to a ripe old age.
September 19 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund can be Cicero.
September 19 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Michael, I vote we don't proscribe him, yeah?
September 19 at 5:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia IDK, the rostrum needs some hands. . .
September 19 at 5:30pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Ironically, I have to go brush up on my Latin skills for a proficiency exam tomorrow.
September 19 at 5:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak could be Catullus or Ovid.
September 19 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger FKATNET delenda est!
September 19 at 5:45pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Mike I'm pretty sure I was in the room you tapped on trying to get in that night. Was particularly bad timing since both the prefects were in there at the time. I thought it was you that tackled them.
September 19 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, Pierre hit me low, Curphey high. It was Fogel's room, and I'm pretty sure you were in the room when I tapped on the window, cause I was flying (recently) solo....
September 19 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Yup that was it. I remember how Pierre's eyes lit up that he was gonna catch someone. hahahah
September 19 at 5:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia except he was in my room while we were drinking a lot. Remember, mine was the designated smoking lounge....
September 19 at 5:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia then all three of us had to knock on Fogel's window to get let back in because neither of them had their keys
September 19 at 5:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Isak is definitely more Catullus than Ovid...and I mean that as a compliment. Catullus is the better poet.
September 19 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and dirtier
September 19 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz That is certainly true....o Hymenae! was a refrain of the last poem I read of his...
September 19 at 6:03pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha
September 19 at 6:10pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Aw, shucks, y'all really know how to make a gal feel special
September 19 at 6:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict By the way Sean, of course the school itself never hires students to ferret out sinners, to use the accepted colloquialism - however, certain individual administrators certainly have made use of them that way. Did you just graduate? A certain Ass. Dean when I was there did refer to himself as Rudy Giuliani, and his prefect team as the NYPD...
September 19 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia WTH? but to be fair, both ass deans while I was there hated me....
September 19 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Drew Summitt its on my feed agai
September 19 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Drew Summitt how did this get on my feed again?
September 19 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia blame Sam Rocha
September 19 at 6:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'll be the demiurge.
September 19 at 6:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Drew Summitt: let tNET feed YOU
September 19 at 6:31pm · Like · 5
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Drew Summitt i have no idea what's happening and frankly i am not reading 18000 comments to find out.
September 19 at 6:32pm · Like
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Max Summe Nothing is happening. Everything is happening. There isn't really "happening" in tNET exactly because time isn't a thing here....
September 19 at 6:33pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia wise man
September 19 at 6:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "'Tl;dr' - Yes! That's your answer. That's your answer for everything! Tattoo it on your forehead!"
September 19 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Sean, I also know firsthand of couples who were followed around by prefects who were explicitly assigned to keep an eye on them. This happened to me too except I was walking around holding Max Summe's hand
September 19 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Sam Rocha has been reduced to providing comedic relief. He wants in to the puppet government though. Find him a position (although he is a gentile)
September 19 at 6:36pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I love the Lebowski references, FWIW
September 19 at 6:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger You really only need to read 1783. But if you are Straussian, I recommend comment 1820. #straussiangnosis
September 19 at 6:39pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau If you read every 10th comment, it makes sense. If you read every 100th comment, it is kind of humorous.
September 19 at 6:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Catullus is too filthy for me to quote here. I'm really nowhere near as bad as he is.
September 19 at 6:40pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #filthygnosis
September 19 at 6:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #pudendagnosis
September 19 at 6:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict hyuk
September 19 at 6:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Cover your butt Bethea - Scott is watching...
September 19 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott can kiss my #gnosis
September 19 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #smoochgnosis
September 19 at 6:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Oh, Catullus isn't all that bad...oh wait, just re=read the poem I mentioned (Epithalamion number 62 in the collected works I have). It isn't really dirty, but flipping to it I skimmed the ones to Ameana....those are nasty.
September 19 at 6:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Catullus 16 is the absolute worst. Investigate with much discretion only.
September 19 at 7:01pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Oh that one....I had forgotten about that one....I had bought the book as a gift for a friend studying Latin...I believe that was the poem that made me keep the book rather than give it to her....when the first line mentions the act of irrumatio....you know it is impudicium.
September 19 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Though it is an interesting way to respond to criticism about being too vulgar...just take it up another notch
nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necesse est
September 19 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Anyone have advice on how to turn my tl;dr dissertation into a book?
https://www.academia.edu/.../The_Meaning_of_the_Public...
The Meaning of the Public Good in the Rhetoric of Ratification
The dissertation examines the meaning of the public or...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY MATTHEW PETERSON
September 19 at 7:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #bookgnosis
September 19 at 7:17pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I can only advise you to harness the power of...
September 19 at 7:18pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger Change the name to something like, "The key to unlocking self-empowerment through the new rhetoric: in six easy steps"
September 19 at 7:51pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger . . . . . then drop the footnotes. Cut out half the chapters and pay 20 TACers 5 bucks each or buy each a forty and have them write reviews on Amazon related to the title. Take a picture of a Coulter look alike for the cover.
September 19 at 9:14pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'm cheap John, I'll write a review for $1.20. but all of my reviews contain #reviewinggnosis
September 19 at 9:34pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joshua, interesting to note the contrast between decet and necesse est there. Catullus isn't denying the charge . . . or I should say claiming to be castus. Do you think he is right to notch it up? Is it just feigned outrage by Catullus?
September 19 at 10:19pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Isak, I did just graduate. I was only a prefect two years (would have been under a different A. Dean than you), but that certainly wouldn't have happened in the time I was there. We intentionally tried to shake off the idea that we were "police". Obviously I can't speak to times before I was there. There have always been overzealous prefects, but my experience is that they are few and taint the whole system. That said, I definitely didn't see eye-to-eye with the A. Dean on everything.
September 19 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, it's hard for me to speak for the women's side of things, because from what I could tell being a female prefect is a whole different job.
September 19 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer I want to see this.
September 19 at 11:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson, I just read your dissertation up to the following: "For if our understanding of political philosophy does not fit that of the founding generation, we ought not, of course, to immediately start sifting their words through our own philosophical framework and begin speaking of tensions and contradictions. One must first assume they had a coherent political philosophy to some degree and seek to uncover it, giving them the benefit of a doubt. This rule of interpretation is especially apt given the continuing success of what they created. In the final analysis, they were doers rather than thinkers. Their magnum opus was an actual government that still exists today rather than abstract works of political philosophy. Their thoughts (often by their own admission) were formed by practice more than theory. To a great extent they were not writing treatises in the vein of Aristotle’s Politics but persuasive texts aimed at erecting a particular regime for a particular people in a particular time and place. To read the founders carefully, then, one must assume they came to their thoughts on government from the induction of experience just as much as (or, more likely, far more than) their reading of books. Given this fact and the obvious success of the regime they established that we the living inhabit, it is somewhat illogical, not to mention ungrateful, to accuse them of holding contradictions if their thought does not fit into our theoretical conceptual categories. We owe them a fair hearing given that, unlike most political philosophers, they actually created a successful government that has managed to stay intact for over two centuries."
While I wholeheartedly agree with your proposed "rule of interpretation," I cannot agree that we should begin by acknowledging the "obvious success" of the regime the Founders established, unless you mean by "success" the simple fact that the government they created has remained intact for over two centuries. It seems likely, however, especially given your use of the charged word "ungrateful," that you mean more by "success" than mere existence in time. If so, is there not a begging of the question here when one begins with the assumption that the regime one is proposing to examine is successful, especially if the word "successful" bears within it a judgment about the good of souls? I am reminded, by contrast, of the way Plato begins the Republic by having Socrates state that "the procession of the native inhabitants was fine; but the one the Thracians conducted was no less fitting a show." These words seem intended to assure us that Socrates is willing to hold his own regime up to the light of reason and judge it objectively, the sine qua non of any genuine science. Would it be unfair, then, if a critic suggested that your examination of the meaning of the key term "public good" was unduly influenced by your evident gratitude? In other words, did you find what you wanted to find in those crucial words because piety required you to find it? For what it's worth, I would suggest when you publish your dissertation that you not leave yourself open to this criticism. After all, someone who is not convinced that the regime has been a success (because the regime's very notion of success is severely defective) might not give your analysis a fair hearing.
September 20 at 2:09am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Thank you.
September 20 at 2:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson All I have time for.
September 20 at 2:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Right now.
September 20 at 2:43am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Slow night? You guys are missing your drive. Only 28 comments from making 19000. Seriously!?
September 20 at 3:01am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau
September 20 at 3:14am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Things you should never say on social media:
September 20 at 3:35am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm sooo tired
September 20 at 3:35am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Such a longggg week
September 20 at 3:35am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Sooo busy right now
September 20 at 3:35am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am having a hard time going to bed with this job undone. really
September 20 at 3:35am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Where are the Europeans? Aren't they getting up by now? Jason Van Boom
September 20 at 3:36am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What is going on over on the Thomism Discussion group? Seriously? I need to go wash my eyes.
September 20 at 3:37am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: read the whole thing, as they say, as imperfect as it is.
But. There is something to longevity, even if not the only thing, especially when to comes to a regime form that is usually NOT long-lasting. Granted that is no complete argument for goodness.
September 20 at 3:38am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Thoughts on the new rumoured appointment: Associated Press learns Bishop Blase Cupich of Spokane will be the next Chicago archbishop.
September 20 at 3:39am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And to Jeffrey Bond - obviously - well, hopefully obviously - I do not thing you are quote right about "the regime's very notion of success" even if I think we are in a very bad way at present.
September 20 at 3:42am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau
September 20 at 4:00am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau Not so many Aristotle valentines.
September 20 at 4:00am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But I was impressed to find Aristotle on a scientist valentine website.
September 20 at 4:00am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I mean, most moderns would not classify him as a scientist. Don't you think?
September 20 at 4:01am · Like
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Sam Rocha
September 20 at 4:02am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, we usually find that we need to vacuum the grass before cutting in Vancouver. It helps it look more green.
September 20 at 4:03am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau 10 Sam Rocha
September 20 at 4:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just 9 more...
September 20 at 4:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Or wait, it is like time travel! It is 7 more.
September 20 at 4:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau When I count, I subtract.
September 20 at 4:05am · Like
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Sam Rocha
September 20 at 4:05am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau For tNET:
September 20 at 4:05am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha
September 20 at 4:05am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Gah! 3 more (2?) and I can go to bed!
September 20 at 4:06am · Like
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Sam Rocha
September 20 at 4:07am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau 19000!!! Good night!
September 20 at 4:07am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Santa Michael Beitia style: http://youtu.be/5BtYI_OndA0
Werner Herzog Reads Twas The Night Before Christmas
German director of Caves Of Forgotten Dreams,...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 20 at 4:29am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Isak Catullus/Ovid: I like your Gatsby interpretation. But how would you respond to this:
«Of the great, redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to turn, [Fitzgerald] admitted, “I gave no account (and had no feeling about or knowledge of) the emotional relations between Gatsby and Daisy.”What was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his characters? Precision-engineering his plot, chiefly, and putting in overtime at the symbol factory. Gatsby takes place over a single summer: three months, three acts, three chapters each, with a denouement—the car accident and murder—of near-Greek (but also near-silly) symmetry. Inside that story, almost everything in sight serves a symbolic purpose: the automobiles and ash heaps, the upright Midwest and poisonous East, the white dresses and decadent mansions.
Heavy plot, heavy symbolism, zero psychological motivation: Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy tales. Gatsby has been compared to both, typically to suggest a mythical quality to Fitzgerald’s characters or a moral significance to his tale. But moral significance requires moral engagement: challenge, discomfort, illumination, or transformation. The Great Gatsby offers none of that. In fact, it offers the opposite: aloofness.» http://www.vulture.com/.../schulz-on-the-great-gatsby.html
As for me, I love fables and fairy tales, but a great novel should be a novel. Something more like Jane Austen...
September 20 at 4:43am · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger [. . . shhhh . . I'm hunting wabbits.]
September 20 at 8:10am · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater hits on a great point. There are only a few books I didn't finish. You have to tell the story first. Yeah, and Austen is a very good story teller. (There is just something wrong with Austen's world and I don't think she sees it.)
September 20 at 8:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia I can't do a fourth round of Austen, Pater.
September 20 at 9:08am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Here are the things I look for in a novel, in order. 1) nuanced and interesting psychological/emotional lives of characters 2) an authorly perspective that reflects some truth 3) good plotting 4) effective descriptive writing 5) symbolism.
September 20 at 9:45am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe #5 is actually not something I look for in a novel, but I sometimes enjoy it if it is there. Isak makes a good case that Gatsby does #5 well, but that doesn't make it great.
September 20 at 9:47am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, and Austen has the first four, obviously.
September 20 at 9:50am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger A great poet has to do everything well but plot and choice thereof is king. TGG is not in Austen's league imo. But Rip van Winkle . . . . that's a great story.
September 20 at 10:04am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I guess I'd say Gatsby also has #3 and #4, but is pretty weak on #1 and #2.
September 20 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I don't read a lot of novels. But a couple I liked recently were OBrians "Strangers and Sojourners" and Helprin's "Soldier of the Great War". I do have a couple on my to read list from this thread though. Many of the so called classics of the 20th century are meh or total fail (among which Rand's rants lead the throng).
September 20 at 10:13am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Helprin. Ugh. I read In Sunlight and In Shadow and it was soooooo bad.
September 20 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It was strange, because he came very highly recommended.
September 20 at 10:20am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I have been meaning to read Strangers and Sojourners for a while.
September 20 at 10:21am · Like
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Pater Edmund I've started Lucky Jim because of Joe Zepeda's recommendation on The Neverending Thread, and it's brilliant.
September 20 at 10:25am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine-- did you read it? Am I crazy or was it just terrible?
September 20 at 10:28am · Like
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John Ruplinger Helprin is hit or miss imo. Soldier is his best and "Ant Proof" is pretty funny.
September 20 at 10:28am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The writing was SO flowery, the dialogue was completely artificial, everyone talked in exactly the same way.
September 20 at 10:30am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The characters weren't real, the plot was maudlin.
September 20 at 10:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger I hated the last chapter of Strangers but the rest of the story is a must read imo. Beautiful story (and I didn't like "Fr. Elija" btw).
September 20 at 10:31am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And on the back, there were quotes from the New Yorker and such, calling Helprin the next Tolstoy. What??
September 20 at 10:33am · Like
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John Ruplinger LIS Helprin is hit or miss. Soldier is the only must read. Good character, great plot. Not as flowery and perhaps more reflective of the author's personal experience but it has been several years. Sojourners might be better though.
September 20 at 10:35am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sojourners has gone on my list. I have an actual list, with now several recommendations from tNET.
September 20 at 10:37am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe http://www.nytimes.com/.../mark-helprins-in-sunlight-and...
Mark Helprin’s ‘In Sunlight and in Shadow’
The couple in Mark Helprin’s new novel fall madly in love and seem destined to live happily ever after, but there...
NYTIMES.COM|BY MICHIKO KAKUTANI
September 20 at 10:45am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If anyone learns anything from tNET, let it be that In Sunlight and in Shadow was a terrible, terrible book.
September 20 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I am actually glad to see the Helprin criticism. He gets a bit overhyped. I couldn't finish Winters Tale.
September 20 at 10:46am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've heard his other stuff is better, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to give him another chance.
September 20 at 10:47am · Like
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John Ruplinger LIS i have no doubt Soldier is his best . . . . it's the plot choice. But I would still take Strangers and Sojourners. I have never read anything like it and i suspect you will really like it, Samantha.
September 20 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Brendan Hodge I found Soldier of the Great War unsatisfying and frustrating -- though it had moments of interesting imagery. Later I read a Helprin interview where he said that anyone who cared about World War One or Italian history would probably hate the book because he hadn't felt bound by what happened, and I felt somewhat more justified in disliking a book many friends loved.
September 20 at 10:59am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger interesting. I read it 6 years ago. Perhaps i would change my opinion on another read.
September 20 at 11:02am · Like
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John Ruplinger Some think it is the GOAT.
September 20 at 11:05am · Edited · Like
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Roger Schwitalla The top of my feed every time I log on. Never have I seen so epic a thread.
September 20 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Never has there been so epic a thread. The Neverending Thread contains multitudes. Welcome.
September 20 at 11:16am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Helprin's an interesting dude. Met him and observed him at close range a few times.
September 20 at 11:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger Soldier is worth reading if only to understand why it is a favorite of some (but i think people's dislike says something as well - its a man's book). Kind of like Atlas Shrugged . . . . it's popularity speaks volumes; in Rand's case a wasteland of dead souls. I cannot comprehend her popularity - there is better writing in Chamber's short critique than in the entire fountain of shallow filth, the frenzied, nonstop, neverending, Brendan orgasmic, relentless screeching that is the corpus of Rand; nails on a chalkboard is melodious by comparison. . . . and if you really want to know what i think of Rant, pm me.
September 20 at 12:25pm · Edited · Like
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Andy Simons I post, therefore I am. Someone else has probably already said that, but screw 'em.
September 20 at 12:13pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Novels: Shusaka Endo (read Silence before Scorcese finally makes his movie version).
September 20 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Read Kazuo Ishiguro's stuff. The Remains of the Day was not like the movie.
September 20 at 12:30pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Read Mo Yan's stuff, particularly this soon to be translated book called Frog about an abortionist in China who just up and stops one day. Sounds like very interesting work.
September 20 at 12:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As for Helprin, try Winter's Tale or Freddy and Fredericka and if they aren't your kind of thing, drop them.
September 20 at 12:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Read some of these wonderful new translations of China's classics that are some of the great works of civilization that we are completely ignorant of.
September 20 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Dream of the Red Chamber or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Monkey.
September 20 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Haven't read Silence but a friend wrote a screenplay based on it - cheerful stuff . . . . better than Scorcese's take.
September 20 at 12:29pm · Like
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Sean Robertson John, why didn't you like Father Elijah? I read that a couple years ago over Christmas. I loved it.
September 20 at 12:31pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I also love sci-fi, which I think the most promising and thought provoking of the available genre-type works of our era. But I do not wish to scandalize anyone.
September 20 at 12:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Does anyone know if the Aquinas Review can be found online? I seem to recall hearing of a plan to digitize it, but I'm not sure if that has happened.
September 20 at 12:37pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I hated Benson's apocolypse to. Both were signs of what is wrong as much as anything, but in different ways -- shallow which Strangers and Sojourners is not. Apocolyptic thrillers. My memory is too poor to expand but that was my impression and the heroes in both left a bad taste in my mouth.
September 20 at 12:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Hated Benson's. Just disliked O'Brien. In both the good guys were as much the problem causing the where we are headed. Truth: Benson freaked me out with his faux heroes and weird Catholic remnant.
September 20 at 12:50pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Fr. Elija = Fr. Brown meets antichrist or maybe its a clerical 007 with the unconsumated love affair to boot. Other things wrong with it too.
September 20 at 12:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I really enjoyed Fr. Elijah.
September 20 at 12:51pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell The novels of Iris Murdoch. Anyone? I found The Sandcastle and A Severed Head both to be gripping and well-written.
September 20 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Have u read Strangers and Sojourners?
September 20 at 12:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes.
September 20 at 12:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^ I did not like it as much.
September 20 at 12:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The only truly brilliant Catholic Apocalypse is A Canticle for Leibowitz
September 20 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^ A little weird at the end. But I liked it very well. Very well indeed!
September 20 at 12:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger interesting. I am so convinced that taste in novels reveals a lot about character. And those tastes change over time. Not saying anything negative about anyone.
September 20 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The Green Knight by Iris Murdoch is also great.
September 20 at 12:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think John just insulted me.
September 20 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I have not. It's on the list (although, unlike Samantha, my list is unfortunately imaginary).
September 20 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My favorite novel happens to coincide (Pace Daniel O'Connell) with the objectively best novel ever written: Don Quixote.
September 20 at 1:00pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^Proof of my being well ordered.
September 20 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Strangers had a profound impact on me when i read it. Changed forever the way i view a few things. And there are a few beautiful scenes in it. Rip van Winkle did too. That sort of thing weighs into how one views a particular work at a particular moment.
September 20 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Don Quixote is on my to read list. I just never get around to it. . . . and it doesn't help not having a copy.
September 20 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That and I rarely spend more than a day (or night) reading a novel. Cervantes deserves a slower read.
September 20 at 1:11pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Daniel: Don Quixote is one of the great novels ... like Shakespeare's corpus, it contains so many wonderful stories ... it's up there with the Kitāb alf laylah wa-laylah (aka 1001 Nights), and Boccaccio's Decameron, IMHO.
September 20 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I prefer surreality to reality.
September 20 at 1:16pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^ So you read Borges?
September 20 at 1:17pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger what is a good translation?
September 20 at 1:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys are crazy. Don Quixote is not a novel.
September 20 at 1:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Silence is the most painful book I've ever read.
September 20 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger THE ONLY novel worth rereading. All others being footnotes.
September 20 at 1:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The last part of Canticle for Liebowitz gave it a run for its money, though
September 20 at 1:22pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell What I think is fascinating about Don Quixote is the stated desire to get past unrealistic "romances" and stories of knights, and get to "real" stories ... and then the reality turns out to be more fascinating than any romance. But Samantha, if you think it's not a novel, how would you classify it?
September 20 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe it's a long, loooooong string of stories, loosely held together.
September 20 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger recommended translations?
September 20 at 1:24pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Fair enough ... that's why I compared it to the 1001 Nights.
September 20 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell John, for Don Quixote I like the Penguin edition. Not sure of the translator though.
September 20 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Borges, Nabakov, Kafka.....
September 20 at 1:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia even Umberto Eco can be really surreal
September 20 at 1:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But those are the best, Samantha. Like Chaucer's tales.
September 20 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think a novel needs more unity than Don Quixote has. It's a proto-novel, maybe.
September 20 at 1:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Chaucer has unity.
September 20 at 1:27pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell What about Homer's Odyssey? Did that have enough unity?
September 20 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Don Quixote would be better adapted to a mini-series than a feature length film? Discuss
September 20 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Obviously correct.
September 20 at 1:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Does anyone think the Odyssey is a novel?
September 20 at 1:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Only if it were a 16-part miniseries like the original Brideshead Revisited.
September 20 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell No, but we give it a unity. We cal it "a poem" ... same with Chaucer ... don't we?
September 20 at 1:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Canterbury Tales, Odyssey, 1001 Nights, none of those have the right sort of unity for a novel
September 20 at 1:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not saying they have no unity, just not the right kind.
September 20 at 1:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Totally disagree about 1001 nights. You can't just start in the middle. there are stories nested within stories there
September 20 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell The raises the question then: what would be the first novel in the European tradition...?
September 20 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia guys, guys, we're not being Aristo-Thomist enough.....
Chaucer lacks the unicity whereby one thing has the oneness of a unity.
September 20 at 1:31pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Presuming we accept "unity" as a criterion.
September 20 at 1:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I am Ceasar. All must accept my criterion for the definition of the novel.
September 20 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Still can't believe you guys let me be Ceasar.
September 20 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The unity of Chaucer is the pilgrimage: the context of the tales and allegory for our lives.
September 20 at 1:38pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe So, it's a bunch of tales and allegories with a common theme. That's enough unity for a great poem.
September 20 at 1:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe not a novel, though
September 20 at 1:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No the stories are more or less diversions from our end. All the stories are judged in the light of our true end. That too is why some stories appeal to us. Others not. as we follow the narrow path or as we wendin off.
September 20 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe btw, I'm just making stuff up that sounds right to me. Nice of you guys to play along, though
September 20 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Don Quixote de la Mancha is typically considered to be the first European novel. It's about a man who, inspired by the romances he reads, sets out to do good deeds in an evil world. ... right?
September 20 at 1:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I do think that any category that contains Don Quixote and, say, Pride and Prejudice needs some fine-tuning
September 20 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Why? Or, rather, how?
September 20 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sort of. But there are fables, allegories, vignettes, and many other things that seem to have their own purpose within Don Quixote
September 20 at 1:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If there is unity, it isn't unity of the story.
September 20 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You do know what happened to Caesar - right?
September 20 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And after a while, it doesn't even really seem to be about Don Quixote anymore, at least not primarily.
September 20 at 1:43pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau btw, I loved Fr Elijah but hated Strangers and Sojourners. It creeped me out. Just too fear based.
September 20 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I believe Ceasar reigns for a hundred years of peace, beloved by all. Am I remembering correctly?
September 20 at 1:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Chaucer is actually critiquing all novels before the novel.
September 20 at 1:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Beware of friends, Caesar
September 20 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel is my good friend, so he should probably be Brutus, that loyal friend of Ceasar.
September 20 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Our Caesar can't spell her own name. Time to get out the stabby stab stabbers
September 20 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I think i have to die first. ["Austen delenda est."]
September 20 at 2:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Austen = Dido . . . . . . . the principle of emasculation that eventually gives rise to the new man, homo effeminatus. ["Austen delenda est."]
September 20 at 2:00pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm embarrassed. Caesar deserves to be spelled correctly.
September 20 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, and you should be flogged. Not stabbed.
September 20 at 2:12pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We have to keep our justice proportional.
September 20 at 2:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Like Caesar, I would prefer to be stabbed than flogged
September 20 at 2:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger a very uncaesarly Caesar. You take correction too easily.
September 20 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's Ceasar!! The historical record is wrong!!!
September 20 at 2:23pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau snort
September 20 at 2:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger now that's the Caesar we hates. [CC delenda est]
September 20 at 2:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is Samantha's crossing the rubicon finally admitting that Austen isn't that great?
September 20 at 2:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No way, that would be capitulation to the evil demands of Cato Ruplinger.
September 20 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Caesar will not be deprived of his Egyptian delight. But I suspect Caesar was master in that affair.
September 20 at 3:00pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Don Q. is not "loosely" tied together! The novel makes several points within its sidetracks and little stories, but they are all subordinate (and, as a whole, essential) to the main story of Don Q.
September 20 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson If Samantha is Caesar, then naming a Cleopatra could make things get weird fast.
September 20 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'll stick with Tribune of Plebs, thanks
September 20 at 3:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Austen = Cleopatra.
September 20 at 3:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Austen is in no way like Cleopatra, except that they are both awesome.
September 20 at 3:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Cleopatra was only awesome because she was the last of the Ptolemies
September 20 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That, and she was pretty good at getting powerful men on her side.
September 20 at 3:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joel = Cleopatra / Austen
September 20 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Stop that! Joel is Brutus!
September 20 at 3:10pm · Like
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Sean Robertson "Cleopatra's nose."
September 20 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Austen is a Victorian Cleopatra. That is all. Dido redux.
September 20 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Because she was a Ptolemy....
September 20 at 3:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because she was smart. And she had to be pretty appealing.
September 20 at 3:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and the inheritor of #ptolemaicgnosis
September 20 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia who wouldn't want a horde of slaves to calculate in base 60?
September 20 at 3:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Dido's world revolved around Dido. Cleopatra's world revolved around Cleopatra. Austen's world revolves around tea pots.
September 20 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia teapots, and the equant
September 20 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have no idea what Cato Ruplinger thinks Austen and Cleopatra have in common other than that they are women notable to history.
September 20 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In both the private surplant the public good. Public good is absent in Austen (and God is dead). I cant blame Austen necessarily.
September 20 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe God is not dead in Austen. Read Persuasion.
September 20 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I don't think you can argue that Cleopatra put her own good over that of her country, if that's what you're saying, anymore than any of the other rulers of the time.
September 20 at 3:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ok. Persuation it will be.
September 20 at 3:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I still don't know what you mean when you say the public good is absent in Austen. What is an example of a novel that exemplifies the public good over the private, in your view?
September 20 at 3:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ha! really. And that is exactly what Dido did too.
September 20 at 3:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Is God Dead in Austen? An Examination of Nietzschean England and the Will to Marriageability"
September 20 at 3:28pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger It is the world Austen depicts. In which the private is magnified but I think Virgil depicts it best and for him it was only part of that world.
September 20 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do you mean the private as opposed to the political?
September 20 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger My good before the common good or even making my good the end of political life.
September 20 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "At bottom, these simpletons want a single thing most of all: that nobody should hurt them. Thus they try to please and gratify everybody. This, however, is cowardice, even if it be called virtue."
#nietzscheAustengnosis
September 20 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pretty sure Nietzsche was talking about Christians there, thus not just Austen but all of us.
September 20 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. clearly an Austen reference. I'm digging through more now.... I'll be back...
September 20 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But it is also a narrow minded private good. And I see no God in Austen but will read Persuasion again next
September 20 at 3:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger fleas is a straussian code for bunnies btw.
September 20 at 3:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys are so frustrating. You keep saying stuff that makes me think you haven't even read Austen.
September 20 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Cato, I keep trying to pin you down on what exactly you mean, but to no avail.
September 20 at 3:45pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger YOU say the most astounding things. Like praise of Cleopatra. I can think of dozens of amazing queens. But not Cleopatra.
September 20 at 3:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't think I evaded any question.
September 20 at 3:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Carthage was overly consumed with private affairs albeit material wealth esp. by trade like its mother city and for which they also sacrificed their own children. [Delenda est.]
September 20 at 3:52pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You evade by vagueness. Your criticisms are never clear enough to refute.
September 20 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't say Cleopatra was a great queen. I just said she was awesome.
September 20 at 3:53pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^that had me laughing
September 20 at 3:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I do keep them in the general. True. But they could still be refuted. I can't get into the specifics for several reasons.
September 20 at 4:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Like that you don't really remember the books?
September 20 at 4:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ha!
"Ultimately they all want English morality to be proved right - because this serves humanity best, or 'the general utility,' or 'the happiness of the greatest number' -no, the happiness of England. With all their powers they want to prove to themselves that the striving for English happiness - I mean for comfort and fashion (and at best a seat in Parliament)- is at the same time also the right way to virtue; indeed that whatever virtue has existed in the world so far must have consisted in such striving."
#ulitmatenietzscheAustengnosis
September 20 at 4:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^ sounds like something Austen would say about her villains.
September 20 at 4:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sounds like what the rest of us say about Austen.
September 20 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and I'm always happy to dig up Nietzsche quotes.
September 20 at 4:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am very familiar with P and P. The others are rusty. But there are other reasons. I am tossing out my general criticism. I will take you up on Persuasion
September 20 at 4:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's just a weird criticism, even if I try to make it specific enough to understand. So people in P and P prioritize their private good over the common good? Sure, some of them do, but not everyone. And if all you're saying is that many of the characters pursue their own good, then so what? Doesn't everyone?
September 20 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But Beitia's quote. . . . . ooouuch [QED . . deleta est ]
September 20 at 4:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Austen's world reeks. One could live in it. Lot's of good there but ONLY by fighting that rot.
September 20 at 4:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe OK, but that's true of the whole world.
September 20 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger yes. But Austen glamorizes it. That's the prob.
September 20 at 4:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why? Because Darcy is rich and that doesn't turn out to be a problem?
September 20 at 4:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger She reinforces it and romanticizes it and makes a virtue of it.
September 20 at 4:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "it?"
September 20 at 4:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Darcy's noble deed is base in motive and execution. Its a cheap cover up that he can afford.
September 20 at 4:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger it = that world and the ends that move it
September 20 at 4:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia did I mention I like surreality? Did that come up? we don't have the same problems in that area of fiction. Anyone besides me love a good Umberto Eco novel?
September 20 at 4:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Foucalt's Pendulum is great. Filled with #allkindsofgnosis
September 20 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Haven't read Eco. Realty is surreal enough. Give me earthy real and celestial surreal.
September 20 at 4:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have all of his novels, and quite a bit of his non-fiction.
September 20 at 4:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Chaucer and Dante are enough.
September 20 at 4:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hardly. Russian literature >>>> everything else
September 20 at 4:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, you object to Darcy helping to save Lydia's reputation because he does it for Lizzy's sake?
September 20 at 4:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It isn't a cheap cover up, it's Lydia's only chance not to be ruined. It's not a great chance, but it's the best possible outcome for the family at that point.
September 20 at 4:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Shakespeare>> all Russian lit. The russians are a bit off balance.
September 20 at 4:35pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia ha. Shakespeare = meh
September 20 at 4:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Donne >>> Shakespeare
September 20 at 4:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there's nothing wrong with being off-balance. It makes great literature.
September 20 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John Donne? Really?
September 20 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yep.
September 20 at 4:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia [head shaking]
September 20 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe bah. no taste.
September 20 at 4:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "Dull sublunary lovers' love"
is a craptastic line
September 20 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia from a craptastic poem
September 20 at 4:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger BUT that is the whole world and all that is in that world. The world and man is much bigger than that. Reputation is a puff of air. High sounding one minute and gone the next. I wont get my hose all tied in knots for it.
September 20 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's easy to say when one's entire social and economic future doesn't depend on reputation.
September 20 at 4:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia publish or perish?
September 20 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Russians = crazy as hell. (I was being nice.)
September 20 at 4:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's right. That's also why the fiction is the best
September 20 at 4:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Show me deare Christ, thy Spouse, so bright and clear.
What! is it She, which on the other shore
Goes richly painted? or which rob'd and tore
Laments and mournes in Germany and here?
September 20 at 4:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sleepes she a thousand, then peepes up one yeare?
Is she selfe truth and errs? now new, now outwore?
Doth she, and did she, and shall she evermore
On one, on seaven, or on no hill appeare?
September 20 at 4:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger good. not best.
September 20 at 4:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dwells she with us, or like adventuring knights
First travaile we to seek and then make Love?
September 20 at 4:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Betray kind husband thy spouse to our sights,
And let myne amorous soule court thy mild Dove,
Who is most trew, and pleasing to thee, then
When she is embrac'd and open to most men.
September 20 at 4:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Samantha is our new pb bard
September 20 at 4:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe QUIET YOU
September 20 at 4:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I resist saying "X is the best" or what have you when the language is archaic. Sadly, (or not so sadly, I have indoor plumbing) I live in the modern world and want things in modern English. (except Russian fiction)
September 20 at 4:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's your problem, not Donne's.
September 20 at 4:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Donne's problem is that he's dead, and not that good of a poet...
September 20 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You just admitted that you can't tell if he's any good, because you are incapable of appreciating anything not modern.
September 20 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's NOT what I said. re-read
September 20 at 4:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia plus, can you rap to "death be not proud"?
September 20 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe def. what you said
September 20 at 4:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, I said, I WANT THINGS IN MODERN ENGLISH not that I can't appreciate anything otherwise
September 20 at 4:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I think Dante and Chaucer best and dont hesitate to say. The time now is out of joint. I cannot find sanity in the russian muse though much to wonder at.
September 20 at 4:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I stand corrected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKEz3kKsEPY
Ϟ Death Be Not Proud~~ Rap=Poetry
THE Library for the World: http://www.archive.org Read a book or donate a book: http://www.gutenberg.orgUse...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 20 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Modern spanglish is meaningless
September 20 at 4:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To clear the air, the ONLY insult - and I didn't make it - was to Joel. Though legitimate, it was invalid because of a typo - null and void. And in jest besides. That excludes my initial charge of arrogance which I mistakenly retracted 18900 comments ago. Let the air be clear, especially now that the Austen contention has been laid to rest by the wise #gnosis of N.
September 20 at 7:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger
September 20 at 6:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger As a rule of thumb, it is silly to insult another's intelligence and foolish to insult a fool to his face. Best not to insult at all unless courtesy or truth require it. All of which i am sure i have transgressed.
September 20 at 6:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz John Ruplinger, in the context of the rest of the poem I read it as saying that the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste poet. Frankly I like is condolentia better, like 101. His invectives against critics...well it is feigned outrage in some way. His other poems may be dirty, but nothing compared to the invectives. Sort of like telling a guy he has drunk too much, and he goes "oh yeah, I'll show you drinking" and ramps it up a notch. Or 10. Then again, the acts he threatens them with, especially irrumation, were considered not just impure (a receiver of it is considered an os impurum), but very degrading. The mouth is ordered to speech, rhetoric, the public sphere. The Romans considered it like rape, and even worse than forcible sodomy. Apparently the Romans in general weren't clean in invectives, but threatening someone with it was also a colloquial way of attacking political opponents, telling them to shut up.
Then again, Catullus clearly thinks the actual act, and any act of os impurum, to be disgusting...well that was far more than I wanted to say on such a distasteful aspect of Catullus...he was young and died young and it shows (but Martial, Horace and others also get dirty this way too...what's their excuse!)
September 20 at 7:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, wrt to Canticle of Leibowitz, that sadly was the only good work of that author. His follow up, published decades later was terrible. I think because he had lost the faith in the meantime and committed suicide shortly thereafter. Rather depressing that
September 20 at 7:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger His point that impure verses do not make a poet necessarily impure may not apply here, given what he is and threatens.
September 20 at 7:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, Don Quixote is a novel. I am flabbergasted why you would deny that. Heck in most places, Cervantes is regarded as the first European novelist! How can the first novel, the first work to get that appelation, not be a novel? If Austen differed markedly enough, then it is her work that would not be a novel.
After all, the romance was distinguished from the novel. Cervantes was a proponent of the novel (Novelas exemplares anyone?)
Cervantes considered himself a novelist!
September 20 at 7:46pm · Unlike · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti " . . . the immodest verses do not make him an unchaste poet." LOL. Did I just walk into 16th Century Geneva? You guys have to loosen up.
September 20 at 7:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Gigliotti, maybe you should think before commenting. Those were Catullus' own words we were talking about. Yank your foot out of your mouth sir.
September 20 at 7:47pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger you need to know what Catullus was saying.
September 20 at 7:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger DANG. Its like the nastiest threat in all poetry.
September 20 at 7:49pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti
September 20 at 7:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, but that threat is used colloquially against rivals. And Martial says adulterers should be punished with it...after cutting off their ears of course....Martial may have had some issues himself.
September 20 at 7:51pm · Like
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Jared Q. Tomanek I may join in at 20K.
September 20 at 7:59pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Best poet ever was David....psalter anyone?
Best English poet, meaning the language we speak, That is a hard one. I enjoy Robert Frost the most, but that is rather subjective.
Including older forms of English, poet qua poet I must concede to Mrs. Cohoe that Donne is better than Shakespeare. Way better. But Shakespeare's poetry are, as it were, a side diversion. Shakespeare was a playwright and that first and foremost. There he has no equal, though this or that work measures up or surpasses this or that of his, no other playwright measures up to the sort of totality of his work.
September 20 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz See how I run away from discussing Catullus who I brought up...it was clerics that found his writings in the middle ages...I hope they blushed at least!
September 20 at 8:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua, you brought up Catullus or rather expanded and burnt more words on him than all else combined. I am still trying to scrub those images from my mind.
September 20 at 8:05pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Matthew J. Peterson, Why'd you delete that? I was in the process of liking it.
September 20 at 8:18pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Haha. Wrong thread. But maybe the right comment...
September 20 at 8:23pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti There are other threads?
September 20 at 8:27pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, I already conceded that Don Quixote is a proto-novel. I am proposing a definition of novel which includes a unity of action which Don Quixote lacks. I can propose any definition I like because I am Caesar. Which, again, I cannot believe everyone is still cool with.
September 20 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Are we at 20,000 yet?
September 20 at 9:02pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha Cohoe, what are we looking for? Greatest novel? Let's get something going here.
September 20 at 9:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Y'all should see the food at this block party. All my neighbors are Italian restaurant owners, it seems. Five kinds of pasta, scallops and shrimp grilled in prosciutto, so, so many olives. My Alderman brought cannoli. I think I love St. Louis.
September 20 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What's an Alderman, btw? Does he want me to vote for him, or something? He's very friendly.
September 20 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron, greatest novel is Anna Karenina. I already declared it so.
September 20 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Okay. Anna Karenina it is. BTW,
September 20 at 9:07pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha, is that new AK translation that everyone raved about any good, or what?
September 20 at 9:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BTW know that when I die I shall be more powerful than you can imagine. . . .
September 20 at 9:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger gatekeeper of . . . .
September 20 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What is that? I can't tell if it looks delicious or horrifying. Depends on whether there are beets in it, I think.
September 20 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh yeah. Pevear Volokhonsky all the way, baby.
September 20 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti That is marinara sauce. No beets.
September 20 at 9:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mmm. You should come to our block party.
September 20 at 9:12pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti That's why I posted that! I'm trying to out dago those guys!
September 20 at 9:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh no, you can't. Some of them didn't speak English until they started school.
September 20 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Yeah, that sounds pretty legit.
September 20 at 9:16pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Did you make a proclamation re: greatest American novel?
September 20 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's so cool. They've all been in this neighborhood forever, too. I wish I had roots instead of being a vagrant.
September 20 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes. Gilead by Marilynne Robinson.
September 20 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, no wait, that was greatest living novelist
September 20 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.
September 20 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Gatsby is the greatest American novel.
September 20 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, or My Antonia. Shoot.
September 20 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hahahahaha
September 20 at 9:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No.
September 20 at 9:18pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti My Anotonia is a lovely novel. There are twenty better American novels.
September 20 at 9:20pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund offered this excellent critique of Gatsby earlier:«Of the great, redemptive romance on which the entire story is supposed to turn, [Fitzgerald] admitted, “I gave no account (and had no feeling about or knowledge of) the emotional relations between Gatsby and Daisy.”What was Fitzgerald doing instead of figuring out such things about his characters? Precision-engineering his plot, chiefly, and putting in overtime at the symbol factory. Gatsby takes place over a single summer: three months, three acts, three chapters each, with a denouement—the car accident and murder—of near-Greek (but also near-silly) symmetry. Inside that story, almost everything in sight serves a symbolic purpose: the automobiles and ash heaps, the upright Midwest and poisonous East, the white dresses and decadent mansions.
Heavy plot, heavy symbolism, zero psychological motivation: Those are the genre conventions of fables and fairy tales. Gatsby has been compared to both, typically to suggest a mythical quality to Fitzgerald’s characters or a moral significance to his tale. But moral significance requires moral engagement: challenge, discomfort, illumination, or transformation. The Great Gatsby offers none of that. In fact, it offers the opposite: aloofness.»
September 20 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Twenty?? No way. Name them
September 20 at 9:20pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Gatsby defines what it means to be an American. The language is so beautiful, and it does NOT turn on a redemptive romance. If that's how you read Gatsby, than you have completely missed the point.
September 20 at 9:21pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti There is no "romance" between Gatsby and Daisy. There is only an illusion that Gatsby must continue to believe.
September 20 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's true. The romance part.
September 20 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Quoting myself now<<Here are the things I look for in a novel, in order. 1) nuanced and interesting psychological/emotional lives of characters 2) an authorly perspective that reflects some truth 3) good plotting 4) effective descriptive writing 5) symbolism.>>
September 20 at 9:24pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The romance is a figment of Gatsby;s rustic imagination: "His heart beat faster and faster as Daisy’s white face came up to his own. He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning-fork that had been struck upon a star. Then he kissed her. At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete."
September 20 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Gatsby has 3,4, and 5 in spades, but is weak on 1 and 2
September 20 at 9:25pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The power of Gatsby is contained in your point 2. Fitzgerald describes the illusory nature of The American Dream in a way that no one has before or since.
September 20 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i just puked from that quote.
September 20 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger maybe i will still read it again. But i have a problem with stories that aren't stories.
September 20 at 9:30pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti How is it not a story? I have no idea what you are talking about. I
September 20 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I almost never know what he is talking about.
September 20 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe it's the Greatest *American* Novel, but not the Greatest American *Novel*
September 20 at 9:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Although, I think the "pioneering spirit" is at least as distinctively American as "The American Dream," and Huck Finn and My Antonia describe that
September 20 at 9:33pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Err, I think Huck Finn says quite a bit about The America Dream.
September 20 at 9:34pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Plus, they have the #1 most important quality in a novel, unlike Gatsby
September 20 at 9:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Is symbolism different from allegory?
September 20 at 9:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So how about Huck Finn for first place? Everyone agree?
September 20 at 9:36pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Symbolism is a device within a work, allegory is the work itself . . . I think.
September 20 at 9:36pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I have no problem with that, but I know that I will never read HF again, but I will read Gatsby many more times.
September 20 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I will probably never read Gatsby again, but I'm going to read My Antonia lots more times.
September 20 at 9:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But is TGG allegorical?
September 20 at 9:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If not, what is it?
September 20 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I have read The Sun Also Rises probably fifteen times, but I won't argue that it is the greatest novel. It's just a novel that I really enjoy reading. TGG is an allegory, yes.
September 20 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BTW the real discussion is on Fed 10 or on Bond's status.
September 20 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Booooooooring.
September 20 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, why is The Sun Also Rises so fun? Is it mostly the drinking and the bull fighting?
September 20 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not a Hemmingway fan at all, but it is super fun
September 20 at 9:44pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti For me it's all about fishing in the Pyrenees. I savor that section. So good.
September 20 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Because of you and Isak, I will read it again. And HF is ok but rambles or meanders in the end, very American.
September 20 at 9:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's because he's describing the best Spanish bender ever, and you feel like you're there with him.
September 20 at 9:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger PEEK at the last page. Its Peterson's previous status.
September 20 at 9:48pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Hemingway is the greatest America writer who never produced the greatest works of America literature. He's like the Mickey Mantle of America Letters. The writing is so good, but it never adds up to much. Although I would argue for The Short Happy Life . . . as the greatest short story ever written. The first line is the greatest first line ever.
September 20 at 9:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe John, are you talking about that thread on prostitution? I guess we could talk about prostitution here, but we're probably all on the same page.
September 20 at 9:50pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti It was now lunchtime and they were all sitting under the double green fly of the dining tent pretending that nothing had happened.
September 20 at 9:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No, Federalist 10. Bond knocked out Madison cold.
September 20 at 9:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Wait, you guys are against prostitution?? I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
September 20 at 9:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron, you said there were twenty better American novels than My Antonia. You have named one that is not better.
September 20 at 9:58pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti The Americans, The Grapes of Wrath, Call of the Wild, Bonfire of the Vanities, and Black Boy, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep, and American Tabloid are at the top of the list for me.
September 20 at 10:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Bleh. You only like boy books.
September 20 at 10:04pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti What does that mean?
September 20 at 10:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I just mean your list in kinda masculine. That's fine though.
September 20 at 10:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NOOOOOOO
September 20 at 10:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I haven't read The Americans, or the Androids book.
September 20 at 10:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger G of W!
September 20 at 10:06pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti It is a great novel.
September 20 at 10:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger quintessence of cockroach poop
September 20 at 10:08pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti You just object to the politics
September 20 at 10:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yeah, good luck trying to figure out what he actually objects to.
September 20 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger blasphemous communist drivel with paper thin characters that needed to be put out of their misery. JS tells the story but cant show it. And rants every other chapter.
September 20 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Talking about the greatest American novel might have some merit. Discussing who is in the top 20 is a waste of time. Americans are not known for their literature. Perhaps the country is too young.
September 20 at 10:12pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger one step better above ayn RANT.
September 20 at 10:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Two of the five Man Booker prize nominees this year are Americans! First year ever we could be nominated!
September 20 at 10:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I completely disagree that Americans don't have great literature.
September 20 at 10:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger G of W is crap!
September 20 at 10:14pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti East of Eden is crap. G of W is amazing.
September 20 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Your Androids book is going on my list. Good title.
September 20 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick For the record... My Antonia is in the top ten... Or the top five...
September 20 at 11:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IDK I run hot/cold on Steinbeck.... but GofW is .. . something?
September 20 at 11:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Never read my Anotonia...it sound like chick-lit....
September 20 at 11:09pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I am a sixth (yes, you read that right) generation native Californian, so my love for G of W could be biased.
September 20 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia My Antonia has a whole wedding party eaten by a horde of ravenous wolves. Peter Jackson could have a field day with that
September 20 at 11:10pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Speaking of Cather, I cry every time I read "A Wagner Matinee."
September 20 at 11:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It was a great choice of topic. For sure but that took an aimless turn like a wandering turtle. Can you say what the point was?
September 20 at 11:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Both "Wise Blood" and "The Violent Bear it Away" are great American novels. As is a lot by Chaim Potok.
September 20 at 11:12pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia My Name is Asher Lev is a great American Novel
September 20 at 11:12pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti DUDE! The Chosen is an amazing American Novel. Another book I could read over and over until I die,
September 20 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti POTOK!!!! I love it
September 20 at 11:13pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti So psyched he is getting love on a TAC thread.
September 20 at 11:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Potok was required reading at my high school for AP English.
September 20 at 11:14pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Every teenage boy should read The Chosen. Modernism vs. Tradition, Father vs. The World. It's epic
September 20 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Totally blew my mind when I was 16.
September 20 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia they tried to ruin it by making it about "Jewishness" but as I re-read it as an adult I saw the themes
September 20 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti It is, secondarily, about Jewishness; and I appreciate that. But the coming of age themes are beautifully drawn.
September 20 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia see that's what they ruined. The Jewishness is the backdrop for the more important, and universal theme of growing up
September 20 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti TACers should do a Potok book club. I would love to hear all the opinions.
September 20 at 11:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I would love to do it. I have all his books already on my shelf...
September 20 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Orthodox Judaism is a terrific window through which to view ACTUAL tradition. I mean living, breathing Tradition with a capital T.
September 20 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti My bedside table resembles midtown Manhattan.
September 20 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Michael, where do you live?
September 20 at 11:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just a hair south of Chicago
September 20 at 11:23pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti A ha! I went to N'western Law. Lived in Chicago from 93-00.
September 20 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia been here 02-present
September 20 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I grew up (mostly) in southwestern Idaho
September 20 at 11:25pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm in LA which is my native country. Anyhow, my wife is at a school function. I just got the last of the brood down to bed. I'm going to get hammered. Pax, TNET.
September 20 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Already ahead of you (two hours and hammeredness..... was at the church campfire where we all sneak in booze to the Chicago park district....)
September 20 at 11:27pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Wife and I had a trying week. Came home from TJ's yesterday with enough booze to take down pledge week at the University of Arizona. She just nodded gratefully.
September 20 at 11:28pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Grapes of Wrath was loathsome to me.
I consider California to be my native country, particularly Southern California. But the California that I, my father and his father before him were born in is not the same California as now. Even in the last 6 years, remnants traditional California culture has almost been annihilated in Los Angeles county. I weep since it is no more.
September 20 at 11:36pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti The decline of California is the great tragedy of my life. One day, someone will write the Great California Novel. It will track the decline Joshua describes above.
September 20 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti One of the great California books (non-fiction) is Hells Angels by Hunter Thompson. Describes California in beautiful elegiac language.
September 20 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Na Servus! So many things to disagree with... A few numbered points:
1) Don Quixote is not properly speaking a novel, though it is a precursor of the novel—the novel's John the Baptist if you will. The novel properly speaking requires a certain diffusion of Cartesianism in the general culture. (Cf: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../post-novelistic-age/) The first novel is Robinson Crusoe.
Post-Novelistic Age
Essays by novelists lamenting the de-throning of the novel as the preeminent narrative art form of our culture have...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
September 21 at 8:02am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund 2) John Ruplinger, your reading of Jane Austen is even worse than your reading of Newman. The primacy of the common good is one of the main themes in Austen. Austen uses the modern, individualistic form of the novel, but she uses it to describe and affirm the attempt to find ways in which the life of virtue ordered to authentic common goods can survive in the modern world. Thus Emma is all about Emma learning to serve the common good of her village, rather than her own amusement. Pride and Prejudice is about the the respective vices of the aristocracy (pride and vanity) and the middle class (small mindedness, putting the private before the common, lack of understanding for aristocratic virtue), and the resolution comes from Miss Elizabeth and Mr Darcy forming a family of gentlefolk who will have the virtues necessary to really help others participate in common goods.
September 21 at 12:52am · Unlike · 7
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Pater Edmund Also Mansfield Park is all about the virtue of constancy needed to foster the common good of a family, and of the extended community around a great house against the ravages of fashionable modernity. (Cf. MacIntyre).
September 21 at 12:53am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund 3) Actually, never mind... I'm going to go break fast.
September 21 at 1:05am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund It's Sunday after all.
September 21 at 1:05am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Are you sure that Austen and Newman haven't led you to post virtue, Cartesian modernism? Wasn't there a passage about that in Pascendi? Maybe I am too hard on Austen. But whenever I start coming around, then someone comes along praising Mr. Icantwritebutpretendto who calls for "bombs, bombs" and prophesies the red "deluge". How did that become acceptable literature?
September 21 at 2:00am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley What makes Austen great is, I think, hard to notice and point out to someone else: it's a certain balance in the action and the presentation of the action. Other novelists may be more exciting or more thought provoking, but Austen balances everything optimally: think Mozart as compared to Beethoven (exciting) or Bach (cerebral).
September 21 at 1:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger And another beef with Austen is that her hero and heroine emerge with a more refined pride and prejudice in the end. Does she teach the reader to be condescending and prejudicial to aristocrats at all? Isn't Liz condescending to Darcy's aunt and prejudicial? Do they really overcome these faults?
September 21 at 1:56am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger No, Langley. I am not unappreciative of her art. There are deeper flaws. MacIntyre confirms these lacunae. What is the virtue contrary to pride? Prejudice?
September 21 at 2:05am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund She overcomes her prejudice toward aristocracy by falling in love with Darcy. Her despising Lad Catherine is just justice; Lady Catherine embodies everything that can go wrong with aristocracy.
September 21 at 2:08am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund And my whole point was that Austen is against Cartesian modernism.
September 21 at 2:08am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Here's MacIntyre, by the way: http://www.scribd.com/.../Alasdair-MacIntyre-on-Jane-Austen
Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen
An excerpt from After Virtue (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149998537/After-Virtue-McIn...
SCRIBD.COM
September 21 at 2:10am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Doesn't Austen pick apart her characters with greater precision than Liz and teach the reader to do the same, inculcating a refined unnoticed condescension?
September 21 at 2:11am · Like
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Pater Edmund Refined condescension is good.
September 21 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund But note Mr. Knightley reprimanding Emma for mocking Miss Bates.
September 21 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Austen is against mocking the parvula Dei, but she shows a way of appreciating their ridiculous side all the same.
September 21 at 2:14am · Like
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John Ruplinger "refined condescension is good", spoken like a true Austenian aristocrat.
September 21 at 2:24am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund
September 21 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So there.
September 21 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund That quote is from one of the bad guys (David Miller), but he proves the point by opposition to it. Condescension is a true aristocratic virtue, and only in modernity does it come to be seen as a vice. Austen shows the difference between true and false condescension.
September 21 at 2:31am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Can't see pics here.
September 21 at 2:31am · Like
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Pater Edmund Just a sec. Let me do OCR.
September 21 at 2:32am · Like
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Pater Edmund «By Jane Austen’s time, condescension is viewed more ambiguously. Readers (or viewers) of Pride and Prejudice will remember the appalling Mr. Collins, who is forever praising the condescension of his patron, Lady Catherine de Burgh. Collins is both a comic and a pathetic figure, and Austen's characterization is plainly a satirical one, but she is describing a moral world in which it was still possible to regard condescension as a virtue. Today it is not possible: to describe someone as condescending is to condemn him or her. Condescension is a vice because there are no legitimate “privileges of superiority” from which to depart, and so someone who behaves in a condescending way is claiming a superior status to which he is not entitled. The progressive acceptance of social equality as an ideal, I am suggesting, could be roughly measured by tracing the moral passage of the concept of condescension from virtue to vice.» http://books.google.at/books?id=y2wMzJtEZ_8C&lpg=PA240...
September 21 at 2:33am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger BUT I maintain that Austen does not understand nor can she the virtue of humility.
September 21 at 2:33am · Like
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Pater Edmund Emma is largely about Emma learning humility.
September 21 at 2:34am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger and i will grant a place for condescion as necessary to one's state or office.
September 21 at 2:36am · Like
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Pater Edmund Also Fanny in Mansfield Park is a heroine of true humility, who is then fittingly exalted. A Marian heroine.
September 21 at 2:37am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Then i should look at that before Persuasion. But can you cite humility in P and P?
September 21 at 2:38am · Like
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Pater Edmund Well, P & P is maybe a little harder, but certainly both Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy have to be cured of pride.
September 21 at 2:40am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ahhh but there is the best kind of humility shown or near it.
September 21 at 2:43am · Like
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John Ruplinger It is still a corrupt society. . . . . . Pelagian if you will
September 21 at 2:44am · Like
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Pater Edmund For once you agree with Newman, and it's where I disagree with him. (He too thought Austen Pelagian).
September 21 at 2:46am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger To repent of one's sins but that is first to God for against Him alone have we sinned. (re humility)
September 21 at 2:58am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger you are worse than Newman.
September 21 at 2:48am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund This is the Newman quote with which I most violently disagree:
«I have been reading "Emma". Everything Miss Austen writes is clever, but I desiderate something. There is a want of <i>body</i> to the story. The action is frittered away in over-little things. There are some beautiful things in it. Emma herself is the most interesting to me of all her heroines. I feel kind to her whenever I think of her. But Miss Austen has no romance - none at all. What vile creatures her parsons are! she has not a dream of the high Catholic ethos. That other woman, Fairfax is a dolt - but I like Emma.»
September 21 at 2:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^Beitia
September 21 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger
September 21 at 2:54am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ok. So Newman and Nietchze are on my side. I surrender.
September 21 at 2:55am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I prefer Twain's critique which is really a critique of himself:
«Whenever I take up “Pride and Prejudice” or “Sense and Sensibility,” I feel like a barkeeper entering the Kingdom of Heaven. I mean, I feel as he would probably feel, would almost certainly feel...barkeepers are like everybody else—it humiliates them to find that there are fine things, great things, admirable things, which others can perceive and they can’t.»
September 21 at 2:58am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I want to like Austen but the Pelagian thing just ooozes in Austen's world.
September 21 at 3:03am · Like
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John Ruplinger Help, Beitia. I'm being domesticated.
September 21 at 3:04am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So much to disagree with...so, so much...
September 21 at 3:36am · Like
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Thomas Hall Of course Austen is Pelagian, not to mention boring as hell.
September 21 at 3:37am · Like
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Isak Benedict I spent my Saturday on an ale trail. Pub crawl, colloquially. I think we were in nine different bars. What did you guys do?
September 21 at 3:44am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger get domesticated
September 21 at 3:46am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "so so much wrong". How often that is said wrt novels. Chaucer already pointed out that stories are diversionary. They reveal what we love, what takes us off the path. We are imitative creatures. They are all more or less vanity and agreement is impossible.
September 21 at 3:57am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger As to Austen, I am free of her Siren song again now that I reread Bond's previous status, a quote of St. Gregory (and since that dreadful parson has made off ). No, as wonderful as the social virtues are, they are most entangling and most shallow in isolation. Where are the children in Austen? Too messy for tea parties. Austen is as clean as a parlour as tidy as a morgue
September 21 at 4:24am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger And if Austen is all that, why can't they cook? Nice china, nice tea from the far east trade to go with scones, plain dry scones . . . and that's the best meal.
September 21 at 4:36am · Like
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Pater Edmund Bar tender.
September 21 at 4:36am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Cross-posting this, so as to tag the whole Thread:
Somehow I didn't notice till now that Joel HF had tagged me in the ten books thing. So, the original rules: “List 10 books that have stayed with you in some way. Don't take more than a few minutes, and don't think too hard. They do not have to be the 'right' books or great works of literature, just ones that have affected you in some way."
I'm going to limit myself to profane books, (how could one choose ten books out of the Bible, or even out of the Fathers—too much). I'm also limiting myself to books that I read (or had read to me) before my 13th birthday, since books that one reads as a child have a special kind of haunting influence on the imagination.
1) The Little House in Big Woods. My mother read this and its sequels aloud to us. But the first book of a series is usually the best, and that is true here. The image of the vast forrest stretching out in all directions as far as man could go for a whole month...
2) At the Back of the North Wind (George MacDonald). My father read a lot of MacDonald to us. I might have chosen The Princess and the Goblin or Ranald Bannerman's Boyhood, but North Wind is the one I remember most often.
3) The Lord of the Rings. I had had this read to me at least twice, and read it myself at least that often by the time I turned 13. Perfect book.
4) lias und Odyssee nacherzählt von Walter Jens. Jens's retelling of Homer, and especially the pictures by the Provensens were my introduction to heroism and tragedy. My older brother and I used to act it out. He cried at the death of Hector, and his tears moved me no end.
5) Jenseits des goldenen Nebels (Auguste Lechner). Amazing book. Tolkienesque effect on the imagination. But very dark. All her other books are good too, but this was my favorite.
6) Jane Eyre. My father read this out-loud to us when I was about ten, and we lived in Germany. Re-reading it much later I was astonished how clearly I remembered all the details...and how little I had understood it.
7) A Child's History of the World (V.M. Hillyer). I read this about three times. My ambition when I was about 12 was to grow up to write books like this. Hillyer is the American Herodotus.
8) Bill Peet: An Autobiography. I read this when I lived in Indiana, as Peet had.
9) The Gentleman from Indiana (Booth Tarkington). Booth Tarkington is an underrated genius. I read all his books.
10) Pride and Prejudice. I read this first when I was 12. Jane Austen is _by far_ the greatest Anglophone fiction writer. BY FAR.
Shoot, now I haven't left enough room for Robinson Crusoe or The Betrothed, both of which were read to me around the same time as Jane Eyre. Nor for Rosemary Sutcliff's books, nor for Jack London, nor for... oh well.
Tagging: The Neverending Thread (why won't the tag work, Facebook?)
September 21 at 4:38am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Does Austen ever mention scones? I don't remember any such passage.
September 21 at 4:39am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund You are criticizing the straw-doll of Austen, not Austen.
September 21 at 4:39am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund She does however mention porter (as in porter's ale, stout) and cold beef.
September 21 at 4:42am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Austen is scorned because her promoters seem to assert that she portrays the full flourishing of human virtue. But she does not. Be more modest in praise and the uncouth might be less condesceoding.
September 21 at 5:08am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz This discussion on Austen has made me return to my absynthe drinking...now the bottle is empty!
Instead of buying a couple of books on analogy, I should have bought more booze! Curses
September 21 at 5:04am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ^edited. I will try to play nice.
September 21 at 5:10am · Like
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Joshua Kenz O Lord let me be submissive to my superiors and condescending to my inferiors!
September 21 at 5:11am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger BTW Pater I believe Twain is knocking Austen. He was anti aristocratic. In his mind the bartender would hate heaven being the servant of the devil's liquor. Likewise Twain hates all the so called fine things being through and through democrat.
September 21 at 5:30am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger That makes Twain, Newman and Nietchze.
September 21 at 5:33am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I love it when Pater Edmund drops by and argues all my points for me.
September 21 at 8:08am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I wish you would stop talking about tea parties, John. It is the most straw filled of your straw man arguments against Austen. There are balls, shooting parties, picnics, and dinners in Austen, but I can't think of a single tea party.
September 21 at 8:24am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Mr Berquist said Emma was one of the best books.... I think it was him... If not I'm just promoting another TAC rumor.
September 21 at 8:38am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Rabbits. rabbits. ....rabbits
September 21 at 8:42am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund There are now some sad gaps in my #gnosis what is the rabbits thing?
September 21 at 9:07am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Eh. Michael originally argued that Jane Austen is like a painter who portrays rabbits excellently. She is good at the technical, but her subject is small and boring, is the idea. There have been many non-sensical riffs on this theme over the last 10,000 comments or so.
September 21 at 9:08am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I specifically compared her to Albrecht Durer, thank you very much, who happens to be one of my favorite painters
#IhavewrittenandIhavenotwrittengnosis
September 21 at 9:11am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe He also called John Donne "craptastic," so we obviously don't have to listen to him.
September 21 at 9:11am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you just fear my neologisms.
September 21 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I return (sort of) and what has happened?
September 21 at 9:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I fear no neologisms. I am a greater user of neologisms
September 21 at 9:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia HA! that's a boooold claim
September 21 at 9:13am · Like
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Pater Edmund «First come the Neologisms, that are afraid of no man; fresh, young, hearty, and for the most part very long-limbed, though some few short and strong. There also are the Misprints to confuse the enemy at his onrush. Then see upon the flank a company of picked Ambiguities covering what shall be a feint by the squadron of Anachronisms led by old Anachronos himself; a terrible chap with nigglers and a great murderer of fools.»
September 21 at 9:14am · Like · 3
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Joel HF John Ruplinger, call me domesticated again and I'll sock you in your gd face and you'll stay plastered.
September 21 at 9:15am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe, I can't be Brutus, I'm not a republican.
September 21 at 9:15am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia What's wrong with being domesticated? I like indoor plumbing
September 21 at 9:15am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Michael Beitia, mostly I was making an obscureish reference.
September 21 at 9:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia Fair enough. But I really don't understand what is so disagreeable when one writes that Austen is great, just not as thematically great as other writers. Is that really that controversial?
September 21 at 9:21am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe When you (or anyone) use "domestic" in a slighting way, I get cranky.
September 21 at 9:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't use domestic in a slighting way. See above comment. Domesticity is great. I get square meals, indoor plumbing. . . etc. it beats hunter/gathering
September 21 at 9:26am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I don't agree that her subjects are small. They are not epic, or perhaps very sweeping, but they are not small.
September 21 at 9:26am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Small is different from "thematically great" which is the phrase I actually used
#strawmangnosis
September 21 at 9:27am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe In what sense are you using "great" if not as opposed to small?
September 21 at 9:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia deep as opposed to shallow? Sweeping as opposed to particular? Universal as opposed to individual? I'm not sure any of these dichotomies fit the bill
September 21 at 9:29am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Certainly not.
September 21 at 9:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia remember, I'm the one here with an over-fondness for Russian literature. Whatever anyone can say about the Russians, they (usually) tackle the largest themes they can. I don't see that as much in Austen
September 21 at 9:32am · Like
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Pater Edmund Have you read the MacIntyre excerpt, Michael? http://www.scribd.com/.../Alasdair-MacIntyre-on-Jane-Austen
Alasdair MacIntyre on Jane Austen
An excerpt from After Virtue (http://www.scribd.com/doc/149998537/After-Virtue-McIn...
SCRIBD.COM
September 21 at 9:33am · Like
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Michael Beitia I did when you (or someone) referenced it before
September 21 at 9:33am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You are not "the one" with an over-fondness for Russian literature. I assume we all have an over-fondness for Russian literature, except John who hates everything except the Aenead.
September 21 at 9:34am · Like
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Joel HF Russians tackle larger themes. Do any Anglo novels (that reasonable could be said to be better than Austen) also do so?
September 21 at 9:35am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia No, Katie has the over-fondness. But I'm pretty sure my collection is pretty large.
September 21 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So themes: human action leading to happiness or misery, virtue, the common good, etc. Big themes.
September 21 at 9:35am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia always in a more particular way Pater, and I'm not the one who said Austen wasn't great.
September 21 at 9:36am · Like
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Michael Beitia don't force me to defend a position I never took
September 21 at 9:36am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're lucky tNET is far too long for me to go dig up your comments and prove that you are being disingenuous.
September 21 at 9:37am · Like
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Michael Beitia Better than Austen...... I am partial to Potok
September 21 at 9:37am · Like
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Pater Edmund Mansfield Park is probably about as big as Ithaca...
September 21 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia haven't read that one.
September 21 at 9:37am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Potok is lovely but not in the same league as Austen
September 21 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia anti-semite (JOKE)
September 21 at 9:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia Orwell is a great writer....
September 21 at 9:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So we're all agreed that Austen is a great writer, and the fact that she doesn't take any climactic upheavals in society as her subjects in no way detracts from her greatness.
September 21 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Excellent.
September 21 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia And you can't dig up evidence for me being disingenuous, I have said the same things every time the Austen thing comes up.
September 21 at 9:41am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Orwell wrote an hilarious review of That Hideous Strength: http://www.lewisiana.nl/orwell/
LEWISIANA: George Orwell on C. S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength
Manchester Evening News, 16 August 1945. Reprinted in The Complete Works of George Orwell, ed. Peter Davison, Vol. XVII (1998), No. 2720 (first half), pp. 250251
LEWISIANA.NL
September 21 at 9:41am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's a just criticism (I hate Lewis' writing, is that another black mark?)
September 21 at 9:42am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That Hideous Strength is terrible. I love CS Lewis as much as the next person, but let's call a spade a spade.
September 21 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe In fact, I didn't care for the first two of the Space Trilogy either
September 21 at 9:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Can we all (Samantha) agree that Albrecht Durer is a great painter, and his paintings of rabbits in no way detract from his greatness?
September 21 at 9:44am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We can agree on that as long as we aren't drawing any analogies.
September 21 at 9:45am · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't annoy the true worshipers at the altar of Austen, Michael
September 21 at 9:47am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Ha! I found one! <<If Austen is about freedom I'd rather be a natural slave (as was accused earlier....)
Freedom.... pshaw.... freedom to be banal>>
September 21 at 9:50am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I am now extremely resentful that Michael made me hit "show previous comments" about ten times.
September 21 at 9:50am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe You called Austen banal! J'accuse!!
September 21 at 9:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I stand by that - thematically
September 21 at 9:58am · Like
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Michael Beitia and contextually, you have misread it as an Austen criticism, instead of a criticism of Capitalist "bootstrapping" you're going to have to hit "show previous comments" a few more times to find damning evidence....
September 21 at 10:00am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe you monster
September 21 at 10:00am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe holy moses, only made it a couple thousand back. I give up. you win. keep denying your crimes against Austen.
September 21 at 10:07am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger you always take everything in the worst way. Samantha.
September 21 at 10:18am · Like
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John Ruplinger obviously domesticated rabbits are charming and endearing.
September 21 at 10:19am · Like
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John Ruplinger craptastic is an expletive of surprise and praise and wonder at the same time.
September 21 at 10:22am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I ONLY objected to Beitia saying Russian novelists are better than EVERYone
September 21 at 10:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger "Joel is not charming or endearing." . . . Is that what you want me to say, Joel? Can't a guy compliment manners and society without getting beat up? Never seen such rude domesticated rabbits and condescending.
September 21 at 10:32am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Grand themes in Austen: Longsuffering or "How my sister got the sniffles and the hem of my dress was soiled". Magnanimity or "When the new neighbor condescended to visit and my heart went aflutter". . . etc. Homeric
September 21 at 12:30pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill I like that Orwell review, and I agree that Lewis seemed to overuse allegory / deus ex machina in his novels.
I guess I prefer tragedy, where virtues are not set on a pedestal but rather are identified through their falling away from some ideal. He train wreck of consequences makes the story fun to read.
September 21 at 11:49am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Austen is divine. Magnificent insight into human persons. Especially women.
September 21 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ do you mean only women
September 21 at 2:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Back to theses: "After virtue: how Austen's virtues of the trifling led to Nietchze concluding God is dead, Henry James' amorality, Twain's cynicism, and Newman's modernism."
September 21 at 2:03pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger "How tea party virtue drove men (Joshua Kenz) to find absynthe and the spread of drunkenness, eventually leading to prohibition and more tea-totalling"
September 21 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger LIS, I am ok with Austen. Please, just knock out the great stuff. She's not the epiphany of all virtue. If you push, I feel suffocated or like a bull on the verge of becoming a steer. Know what I mean? I try to be nice; it's so hard.
September 21 at 2:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Ruplinger, when was the last time you read Austen, in fairness?
September 21 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I go to Mass you there's only 20 new comments? Now who is the monster....?
September 21 at 2:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew Dugandzic So, speaking of these theses (unendingly), where are they published? Ie, is there a place where I can access them?
September 21 at 2:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz TAC has them in the library, at least in some boxes upstairs last I knew of....
September 21 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Matthew Dugandzic womp
September 21 at 2:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In fairness, I taught P and P a few years ago. I poured over the text and found that it wasn't as deep as I had thought. BUT I should read it again. The discussion has been helpful and at times I am overstating my case. NEVERTHELESS, Austen while good is not as great as advertized and may even be flawed. On top of that I have a terrible memory. I am reeeeeaaaally not that big on the whole novel genre. I think she is one of the very best in it. So "ok" for me means "good" to "great" for others. Joshua Kenz
September 21 at 2:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And Joshua Kenz, in fairness, did you read all of Beitia's remarks above as well as Pater Edmund and my exchange?
September 21 at 2:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If having to admit you misjudged an artist makes you feel emasculated, that's too bad. She is great, and she doesn't have to be the epiphany of all virtue to be so.
September 21 at 3:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But that's what some claim ^^^^^!!!!!
September 21 at 3:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think anyone has claimed that.
September 21 at 3:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The epiphany of all virtue?
September 21 at 3:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, let's talk about something else. Caleb has a blog post with his project coming out this week about whether "Think for yourself" is actually good advice.
September 21 at 3:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What do you think? Is it?
September 21 at 3:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger All I asserted above was that Austen's focus is mainly on the social virtues. Will any say that she is presenting magnanimity or the full scope of virtue? All I've asserted is that she reveals some part of human nature and not all aspects. Will any entertain greater scope? If we admit that her aim is more to present feminine virtue, I am fine. And have so stated.
September 21 at 3:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "Think for yourself" -- what do you mean?
September 21 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "feminine virtue?"
September 21 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe nope. can't move on yet. changed my mind.
September 21 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger She is trying to impose "feminine virtue" on men, no????
September 21 at 3:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe social virtues are "feminine virtues?" Are you claiming that it doesn't matter how men relate to one another?
September 21 at 3:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO
September 21 at 3:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe define your terms, sir
September 21 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I didn't say that. However, the virtues Austen shows are more the domain of women.
September 21 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am done arguing. Arguing is not a feminine virtue ..........
September 21 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ....... it's a vice too often
September 21 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and we can quickly descend now to the abysss
September 21 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger
September 21 at 3:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What does "think for yourself" mean?
September 21 at 3:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No. You said Austen deals with "social virtues" and that the virtues she shows are more the domain of women. So, "social virtues" are more the domain of women, according to you. That is indefensible.
September 21 at 3:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger then I won't defend it. ^^^^ that's "just dumb"
September 21 at 3:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What is "think for yourself"?
September 21 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Furthermore, you have been extremely critical and dismissive of Austen, so if your real complaint is that her books portray "feminine virtues" then you must not think very highly of these supposed "feminine virtues"
September 21 at 3:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But I do think highly of them........ only not when men only engage in them.
September 21 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What are these "feminine virtues" you are talking about, then? Again, are you saying men are not supposed to have "social virtues?"
September 21 at 3:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In fact scroll up. I said the social virtues IN ISOLATION are offputting. Austen is offputting to many men because they are a bit isolated and not manly. Do I need to prove this?
September 21 at 3:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NOT AT ALL. (to your comment)
September 21 at 3:27pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger You're not reading what I write.
September 21 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Social virtues are important but more important for women than men. And women can use their household as a training ground for the beasts in such.
September 21 at 3:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ???
September 21 at 3:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger For those men who lack them. ....... which is most.
September 21 at 3:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Have you heard of the unity of the virtues?
September 21 at 3:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And who has that?? pray tell?
September 21 at 3:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What of reverence for the sacred in Austen?
September 21 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why are social virtues more important for women than men?
September 21 at 3:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger BECAUSE THEY ARE QED
September 21 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "Think for yourself" -- what virtues are more feminine? what more masculine?
September 21 at 3:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're the one throwing around the term "feminine virtues" like you know what it means.
September 21 at 3:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If you deny there are such, we really have NOTHING to discuss because the point is that Austen's men are a tad too womanly. That is why so many men take offense at Austen.
September 21 at 3:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #virtuegnosis
September 21 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger It does not mean that women and men do not share in ALL the virtues.
September 21 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think you are using the term dismissively, possibly without actually knowing what you mean.
September 21 at 3:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Only that the men accentuate some more than others; women others. But this is obvious............. no not dismissive at all.
September 21 at 3:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I would be more horrified (and am) at portraying a bunch of testosterone pumped women. Amazons are not natural as the etymology of the word indicates.
September 21 at 3:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Your entire critique of Austen apparently comes down to the fact that she focuses on "feminine virtues," and according to you that seems to be a fatal flaw. So how is the term not dismissive?
September 21 at 4:01pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger No, I didn't say fatally flawed. I have said what I said many times now.
September 21 at 3:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger again ignored
September 21 at 3:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You didn't say fatally flawed, but you have said enough derisive things to make your attitude plain
September 21 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger It's dismissive to say that a man is not a woman. That a woman should not strut about like a man. It's dismissive to say that Austen's men are somewhat feminine.
September 21 at 4:11pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger MY ATTITUDE changes
September 21 at 3:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger precisely as folks who defend Austen, claim there is no flaw at all.
September 21 at 3:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If we limit our praise of Austen to the scope of the world she depicts, fine.
September 21 at 3:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If we deride those more Homeric loving men for not liking Austen, I think that is to not ackowledge that Austen is not investigating the more manly VIRtues.
September 21 at 3:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe it's pretty obvious what's going on here. I think I'm out.
September 21 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger So what is "think for yourself" mean?
September 21 at 3:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger OK, ANYONE. What did I say that was offensive here?
September 21 at 3:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's kinda funny, I thought that the "social virtues" like justice were the greatest of the moral virtues because they are directly ordained to the common good.
September 21 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger How so? Since the social virtues are in the private sphere?
September 21 at 4:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Would social graces help you to understand? Affability, amiability, hospitality?
September 21 at 4:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes John, I saw what you said could be taken offensively. Why would you say that social virtues are more important for women than men?
Leadership relies on social virtues, which is not feminine or manly.
September 21 at 4:17pm · Like
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Adam Woodward You know, at over 19,000 posts, you could just just take this thread and recopy it as a short novel. Add some typesetting and good layout and you could market it as a stream-of-consciousness dialogue inside the head of an erudite and nostalgic schizophrenic.
September 21 at 4:17pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe Here's the thing. I don't mind so much if you think there are virtues more suited to women, even if you have poorly defined ideas of what that means. But if you simultaneously want to relegate women to "feminine virtues," and obviously disdain these same "feminine virtues," then you unwittingly reveal that you don't actually think much of women.
September 21 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Did I say more important? I meant more feminine but perhaps should have said are more noticeable when lacking in women than in men.
September 21 at 4:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't even mind that much if you don't like Austen. But if you think her work can't be great because it seems to focus on what you think are "feminine virtues," then we have a problem.
September 21 at 4:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If you want to say that Austen depicts a primarily domestic world, and that doesn't interest you all that much, then that's fine. But if your complaint about Austen is specifically her femininity, then I think you're probably a misogynist.
September 21 at 4:24pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Other virtues are more necessary in a leader. These however grace the leader.
September 21 at 4:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger You have entirely misconstrued my meaning.
September 21 at 4:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Obviously you would say that, but I don't think I have. I've been trying pretty hard to understand you, but it keeps coming back to this.
September 21 at 4:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I have had the honor of knowing some great leaders (military generals), they actively preach that being a servant, listening and social conflict resolution are the greatest virtues for a leader to aspire to.
What is in Austen more closely provides a guide through these virtues.
September 21 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Again to go way back, the society itself may be my real complaint. It is the men more than the women who are feeble. But I am done.
September 21 at 4:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I see that what I wrote can be construed as misogynist. When I say feminine, I do not mean exclusively feminine. But men and women show virtue differently. Again my real criticism of Austen is the society. As to her writing, I have many times praised her as one of the best but also that I am not a fan of the novel as much and gave reasons 3 times now.
September 21 at 4:54pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia John, you're not being Aristo-Thomist enough.
Feminine virtues are the virtues by which a good woman is said to be good insofar as she is a woman. that is good.
September 21 at 5:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Think for yourself is both the most terrible advice and the best advice taken in two ways:
1: first we need material to think on, and a guide as to what is worthwhile. there's lots of stuff out there to study
2: intellectual discipleship can be blinding. Which Laval Thomist claimed to have never read Descartes? (as if that was a virtue) think for yourself so that one can be critical of our guides through learning.
September 21 at 5:15pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger It is actually easier to discern and not so obscure. Courage in a man can be rashness in a woman yet both can be equally courageous. In fact the kind of courage a woman often required is the highest type or most properly what it is as when she bears children. It is just less noticed.
September 21 at 5:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think a lot of your claimed misunderstanding is using the phrase "feminine virtues" or "social virtues" other than saying "niceties" or "courtesy" or "social skills". Those phrases are probably less charged and seem to describe what you're trying to get at better.
September 21 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Doesn't it usually mean: be your own guide. In that sense, it is easily a pitfall especially without prior training. But the difficulties you posit everyone faces. And the role of moral virtue is forgotten.
September 21 at 5:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I did clarify when I said affability, hospitality and amiability. I thought that is what Aristothomists meant by it.
September 21 at 5:32pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. now you have to go back and edit every post where you put "feminine" or "social" virtues to say social niceties. I have spoken
September 21 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "a guide as to what is worthwhile" is priceless.
September 21 at 5:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia seriously how many young men fall into Ayn Rand's "philosophy"? they need to be protected from themselves
September 21 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Arist. Nic. IV end: mean between boastfulness and self deprecation; homilia emmeles (honeyed confab); [modesty - only touched on as regards shame]; but I added hospitality to refer to the external things in private society or comradery for a less ambiguous term.
September 21 at 6:00pm · Like
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John FitzGerald 19,584...
September 21 at 6:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I forgot affability. It is true that these are virtues in conversation and living together and common life in words and deeds. But Austen narrows the scope though as with Aristotle who follows by treating on justice, in Austen the action and words fall under what is just.
September 21 at 6:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I think we can hit 20,000 today if we put our backs into it.
September 21 at 6:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm waiting for someone to say something I can argue with, instead of John being hard to understand, Samantha being angry all the time and Isak just doing fly-bys
Screw you people
September 21 at 6:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Reading Descartes is accidental to a philosophical education: he's more a rhetorician than a philosopher.
September 21 at 6:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^That's the analytic coming out
September 21 at 6:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have this not only on the TAC-authority but on the authority of one of the most historicist philosophers I've ever met.
September 21 at 6:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia which is fine. But I think it essential to read for a well-rounded philosophical education, even if it isn't 'taken seriously' as a philosophy
September 21 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Why, what positive contribution does he make such that it's essential for a philosopher to have read him?
September 21 at 6:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I feel so bad about the fly-bys - I maintain a very active lifestyle* and often a large amount of time passes before I can return to the conversation. I'm considering the responses to my Gatsby interpretation at the moment, to which I will direct some further thoughts.
September 21 at 6:41pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia It's hard to understand a lot of the modern movement in philosophy without having read Descartes.
September 21 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The only novelty in his thought is that he takes the "evil genius" argument as a real problem to overcome.
September 21 at 6:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict *advanced pranking, beering and poeting
September 21 at 6:42pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and seriously, I would never brag about NOT having read or studied something. I see that as a defect in me
September 21 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I dunno, I think I would if someone were to make too big a deal about someone.
September 21 at 6:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I brag that I've never read Twilight...
September 21 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if you hadn't studied it, how would you respond
September 21 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak, you're not helping
September 21 at 6:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd ask them what they thought was so important about X and then try to argue about that.
September 21 at 6:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict True true, being a little facetious. When it comes to recognized or influential contributors to the Great Conversation, I'd never brag of not having read an author either.
September 21 at 6:45pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz De Koninck thought most modern- contemporary philosophers as dialecticians rather than philosophers. But even a large portion of Aristotle is dialectic. Maybe many of the moderns were trying to reinvent the wheel- there is something to be said of the post-moderns here.
Since truth is a common good, then studying the moderns, especially someone like Descartes, serves not only to elucidate truth by comparison with error, but is also necessary in order to engage and share truth. And there are true insights in many of the better moderns and contemporaries.
Dang, I wrote an article on the necessity to study the moderns while at my job the other night...maybe I should type it up.
Here is a controversial thing....Duane Berquist is wrong in his definition of philosopher. He opposes the nominal or etymological definition to the current use. But he misses the proper use of the term. One may be a lover of wisdom and not be a philosopher after all....
September 21 at 6:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I am not angry all the time! I'm not even the angriest person on this thread by a long shot!
September 21 at 6:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "all German philosophy is worthless, therefore, since I have judged it so, no one should ever read any of it"
September 21 at 6:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh yeah!? who is?
September 21 at 6:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I definitely get more angry than Samantha. But her feathers are more easily ruffled.
September 21 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's not the claim, I just wouldn't think that a philosopher had missed something important qua philosopher if he had never studied Kant: he might have missed something important as a teacher or such, but not something essential for figgering out reality.
September 21 at 6:47pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "figgering" I love it
September 21 at 6:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey you guys want to hear a word I made up the other day?!?!
September 21 at 6:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Plagiarism.
September 21 at 6:48pm · Like · 3
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Emily Norppa ^^ #gnosis
September 21 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was going to say Isak. But I would also nominate Mr. Kenz and Jeff.
September 21 at 6:49pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #jocosegnosis
September 21 at 6:49pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I saw you type that.
September 21 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, I'm not sure philosophy is that necessary for figgering out reality. #needsmoremathgnosis
September 21 at 6:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Josh and Jeff just get huffy, I think. I on the other hand become a broiling vessel of the Lord's righteous wrath!!
September 21 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia almost as much as Scott....
September 21 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If Scott took Viagra, he would grow taller.
September 21 at 6:52pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia see that's good work people, we can push this dumpster fire of a thread past 20K
September 21 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: to answer your earlier question, I haven't read "In Sunlight," but I read "Winter's Tale" and thought it was awful. I can't stand magical realism.
September 21 at 6:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Dumpster fire" just made me laugh out loud
September 21 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Who doesn't like magical realism? You don't like Borges or Garcia-Marquez?
September 21 at 6:53pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I can understand not liking Helprin - I've found him sort of second-rate - but magical realism as a whole is delightful!
September 21 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger never read it. Isak
September 21 at 6:55pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Read what John?
September 21 at 6:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't get angry, I just dislike diatribes against women.
September 21 at 6:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I do not "get my feathers ruffled." I become angry in direct proportion to the injustice before me.
September 21 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Me angriest? I get angry, yes, but I quickly cool off.
September 21 at 7:00pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil @Isak: haven't read any Borges, but no, I don't like Garcia-Marquez, even though he is a better writer than Helprin. I just find the whole genre sort of ridiculous.
September 21 at 7:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see you even get angry about getting angry (Samantha)
#angergnosis
September 21 at 7:02pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Jeff Neill Like a bad deodorant commercial, "courage strong enough for a man, but disproportionate for a woman"..... I have warned a few "men" prior to their ass getting kicked by a woman, they need to put heir chauvinism in check. (They inevitably push it and they get their ass kicked by a female)
September 21 at 7:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia diatribes against women? What thread have you been reading Jeffie?
September 21 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm sorry you don't like Garcia-Marquez. He's one of my very favorites. His books changed my perception of the world for the far far better. But that's a subjective encounter. Have you read Chronicle of a Death Foretold?
September 21 at 7:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Philosophy just is figgering out reality, Michael Beitia
September 21 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What is this "subjective encounter" nonsense? We don't agree to disagree on tNET!
September 21 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nah, that's math
September 21 at 7:09pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia 100 years of solitude is a great novel. there. I SAID IT
September 21 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Marquez or Borges. . . . . Just bragging [and Jeff I am sorry for not having been clearer]
September 21 at 7:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia read both (read this as imperative, not as a statement of what I have, in fact, read [as past tense in this case])
September 21 at 7:12pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia IMHO
September 21 at 7:11pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Edward Langley: Surely you mean something stronger than that; the claim you are making is true as long as you think all men are rational (there is no super-rational man).
September 21 at 7:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha, all I meant by that is that just because a book had a profound effect on me does not guarantee it will have that same effect on others. That seems pretty clear.
In other words, I am not upset if someone else does not think as highly of Gabriel Garcia-Marquez as I do.
September 21 at 7:14pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I do not demand that anyone worship at the altars of my favorite authors.
September 21 at 7:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or as highly of Austen as ....I...do..... bwahahahaha
September 21 at 7:14pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Although I would of course argue for his objective literary greatness.
September 21 at 7:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger thanks for the clarification. Truth: i haven't read a novel in a while because of a long series of great disappointments. Michael
September 21 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, I have an inordinate love of nested parentheticals.
September 21 at 7:15pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I also do not refer to the phrases of others as "nonsense" until I've understood them.
September 21 at 7:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Haha... John I wasn't steering my comment at you, you just received collateral damage from my drama bomb.
September 21 at 7:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia drama is so feminine.
September 21 at 7:18pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill And yet men think arguing is manly.
September 21 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Disappointments include a few favs on here (not Austen). Saints lives don't disappoint and Alban Butler is a great writer btw.
September 21 at 7:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John, I think you would enjoy any of Marilynne Robinson's books - Housekeeping, Gilead, and Home. They are extraordinary.
September 21 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Of those who have read her, I think I am in the minority in liking Housekeeping the best.
September 21 at 7:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Does anyone besides me feel really strongly about Knut Hamsen?
September 21 at 7:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I got a copy of Hunger on your recommendation, and will read it when I am done with "The Dharma Bums" and then John Darnielle's new first novel "Wolf in White Van."
September 21 at 7:29pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict John - excerpt from Housekeeping: "To crave and to have are as like as a thing and its shadow. For when does a berry break upon the tongue as sweetly as when one longs to taste it, and when is the taste refracted into so many hues and savors of ripeness and earth, and when do our senses know any thing so utterly as when we lack it? And here again is a foreshadowing -- the world will be made whole. For to wish for a hand on one's hair is all but to feel it. So whatever we may lose, very craving gives it back to us again."
September 21 at 7:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Gilead is on my to read list.
September 21 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict More from Housekeeping: "There is so little to remember of anyone - an anecdote, a conversation at a table. But every memory is turned over and over again, every word, however chance, written in the heart in the hope that memory will fulfill itself, and become flesh, and that the wanderers will find a way home, and the perished, whose lack we always feel, will step through the door finally and stroke our hair with dreaming habitual fondness not having meant to keep us waiting long."
September 21 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger interesting. But gotta say: having > craving especially after greatly craving or long absence.
September 21 at 7:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and my memory is such that my name comes under the heading: out of sight out of mind.
September 21 at 7:37pm · Like
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John FitzGerald As a layman I must say this thread is quite good. I mean, I'm not in much of a position to go on about the philo/theo, but I do like what I'm reading.
Keep it up!
September 21 at 7:40pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict I think the point is that the mere existence of longing destines us for fulfillment. It's teleological.
September 21 at 7:40pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia fortunately for me, I crave a beer, and I have some in the fridge. It all works out.
For my next trick, I'm going to find the hidden message at the bottom of the bottle. #boozegnosis
September 21 at 7:44pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I crave fig newtons, but having is not as satisfying as the time spent craving. Memories are better than reality.
September 21 at 7:48pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger if so, Isak, thing and shadow are backwards. Plato and Homer make me a stickler on metaphor. No better teachers.
September 21 at 7:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia according to facebook, I'm the only person to ever hashtag #boozegnosis I feel accomplished
September 21 at 9:02pm · Edited · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger "know anything so utterly as when we lack it" my senses dont work that way. The opposite. I appreciate and even know a thing or person - and in ways better - in absence. But that is of the mind not sense.
September 21 at 7:56pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The 2nd quote is more teleogical and rings truer though.
September 21 at 7:51pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Michael Beitia
September 21 at 7:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ready for the next round....
September 21 at 7:57pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The effin' TNET. Gotta love it.
September 21 at 7:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia t-effin'-NET
September 21 at 7:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #rockgnosis - MY personal gnosis
September 21 at 8:00pm · Like · 2
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John FitzGerald Somebody stop me before I break out into Depeche Mode.
September 21 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No John, it's not backwards - she's employing a form of antimetabole, that's all.
September 21 at 8:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger DANG i aint heard that before never
September 21 at 8:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But the way the metaphor works, I don't know. I am def. a having is better than desiring guy but i get it: I think that's magisterial too.
September 21 at 8:22pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland antimetabole, sheesh. That's almost as bad as metagism, or syllaphor.
September 21 at 8:22pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger poets . . . sheesh
September 21 at 8:24pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger that's a cover my ass trope imho.
September 21 at 8:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia antimetabole? more like syllophoric metagismic chiasmus
September 21 at 9:02pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I see tNET has ascended to Marilynne Robinson quotes. Very good. Carry on.
September 21 at 9:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw-- how are you liking Gilead? Have you finished yet?
September 21 at 9:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NOT antimetabole. But you had me going, Isak. And I had forgotten it. Figures.
September 21 at 9:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, what's this three days of darkness? Relatedly, why is there so much weird Catholic stuff?
September 21 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley What's wrong with "weird Catholic stuff"?
September 21 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'd kinda expect, people being what they are, that a whole horde of everything from superstition to legitimate private revelation would be found among the believers: especially since the Church's book is so obscure.
September 21 at 9:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, in the case of the three days of darkness, it's super creepy.
September 21 at 9:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Why?
September 21 at 9:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 3D of D is from the one of the false La Salette secrets.
September 21 at 9:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I've heard about it isn't too far-fetched, given St. John's Apocalypse and other such things.
September 21 at 9:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As I understand it, the "prophesy" is that there will be three days of cursed darkness where everybody who goes outside gets eaten by demons unless they have special blessed candles, that, fortunately, weird little groups of super-Catholics can sell you.
September 21 at 9:29pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley My attitude to private revelations is that, if their is any truth to them, we'll find out in due time.
September 21 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Then what's the point of them?
September 21 at 9:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps certain people at certain times needed them.
September 21 at 9:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Dont know if there is a legitimate version. I just dont ever plan to live in Paris or Marseille.
September 21 at 9:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Some of them, like the reports of Marian apparitions in the Ukraine or Fatima are clearly that way: they occur in a very particular location where the Faithful are suffering and they help to "keep morale up".
September 21 at 9:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Anyways, what I remember of the three days of darkness was that at that time only fire from blessed candles would light, but not that the provenance of the candles would matter.
September 21 at 9:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's not too weird, though, especially since the second coming isn't exactly a "natural" time.
September 21 at 9:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe To be fair, there's also a lot of weird fundamentalist stuff that's like that, it just all claims to come from Revelation instead of from private revelation
September 21 at 9:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Private revelation is for two reasons: warning and comfort. The latter more. Like EL says.
September 21 at 9:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley "your old men will dream dreams and your young men see visions"
September 21 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley right out of Revelation.
September 21 at 9:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok. Fair enough.
September 21 at 9:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And we are in the times of Chastizement imo. So yeah it is comforting. (No rapture. Not THE antichrist)
September 21 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, what's comforting?
September 21 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think we're going to make it to 20,000 tonight, y'all.
September 21 at 9:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That it will be short, usher in the age of Mary . . . . .
September 21 at 9:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know you guys don't care, but the age of Mary is sooooo not in the Bible.
September 21 at 9:43pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . the Church will be restored, its not the last days . . . etc.
September 21 at 9:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How do you know it's not the last days? It could totally be the last days. Jesus is pretty clear that nobody's gonna know when the last days are.
September 21 at 9:44pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger what about the 6th seal and the 7 thunders. . . .
September 21 at 9:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe probably allegorical stuff from Revelation that is impossible to understand?
September 21 at 9:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 7 thunders have not happened and you know what Anthony Marie Claret said about them
September 21 at 9:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nope. I don't know what he said.
September 21 at 9:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I will now google him
September 21 at 9:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Protestants looking at blood moons. . . BWAHAHA
September 21 at 9:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The 3 days of darkness, as reported by Mrs. Cohoe, is how I heard it (except it had to be your baptismal candle). I figured I was screwed, as by grandmother baptised me in the NICU (the doctors figured I was certainly not going to make it, and my parents weren't exactly religious...so she snuck in the NICU with some Lourdes water, under the pretense of giving me a teddy bear, and baptised me there clandestinely. But she didn't give me no candle)
Trial, Tribulation and Triumph is the book I recommend here. You can safely skip the first 60% (the title should really be "My justification of traditional scripture interpretation against the excesses of historical and form criticism, oh yeah and also the end times/antichrist tacked on)
There are some interesting things in private revelation, but let's be frank. It all boils down to this- I can die on my walk tonight. And go to hell. So I better get to Christ now.
September 21 at 9:48pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger who is the seer of that because i do know there is one legit source?
September 21 at 9:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 7 thunders = sons of Mary . . . but they have not spoken.
September 21 at 9:52pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh, and I still have that teddy bear...his name is Squeaky. He HATES communists and is foul mouthed. Since he was my baptismal gift, would he work against demons during the three days? Nah, he would probably just call them (censored) communists. And spit at them.
He also has a terrible cigar and beer habit.
September 21 at 9:52pm · Like · 10
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Adrw Lng Samantha, taking it slow. No more than 20 pages in. I read in the mornings with my coffee
September 21 at 9:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger just NOT La Salette.
September 21 at 9:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh many saints have spoken of 3 days of darkness. St. Hildegard von Bingen for one. But she was a bit big on crazy imagery in general, who knows how literal that is meant
Bl. Anna Taigi had this:
"There shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three nights. Nothing can be seen, and the air will be laden with pestilence which will claim mainly, but not only, the enemies of religion. It will be impossible to use any man-made lighting during this darkness, except blessed candles. He, who out of curiosity, opens his window to look out, or leaves his home, will fall dead on the spot. During these three days, people should remain in their homes, pray the Rosary and beg God for mercy. All the enemies of the Church, whether known or unknown, will perish over the whole earth during that universal darkness, with the exception of a few whom God will soon convert. The air shall be infected by demons who will appear under all sorts of hideous forms."
I don't know; this at a time when the Church was under attack in France and Pius VII prisoner....some of it could be projection on her part.
September 21 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Taigi. That's what I thought. It will actually be a lot worse.
September 21 at 10:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger comforting
September 21 at 10:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger probably should start the daily rosary ahead of time.
September 21 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia private revelation is not de fide. I love telling that to Fatima nuts.
September 21 at 10:05pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia oh those wicked and adulterous generations.....
September 21 at 10:06pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland what do you mean private revelation is not de fide? You arrogant TACers probably don't even know what de fide means since you don't know anything about the magesterium (sic).
September 21 at 10:09pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland (sorry, just trying to help things get to 20,000).
September 21 at 10:07pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger pious assent. And yeah Fatima is the elephant in the prophecy room.
September 21 at 10:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well of course not. But I do think too dismissive an attitude is a problem. As if one simply cannot bring himself to believe that God can actually do miracles. It is a disease of the mind, one infecting modernists, that cause them to doubt the credibilia
But ultimately many fans of these things miss the point. What matters if I am prepared for the 3 days, if I am not prepared to go to the Lord tonight?
September 21 at 10:08pm · Like · 5
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Lauren Ogrodnick This always gets interesting when I leave it alone... And then I have to scroll back a million miles...
September 21 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there is no new revelation. It ends with St. John. therefore I can dismiss Fatima, if I want.
September 21 at 10:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Man, all that piety stuff always drove me nuts. If I reconvert, can I just be a really impious Catholic?
September 21 at 10:09pm · Like · 5
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Lauren Ogrodnick Also... I'm going to go get some candles blessed now... Do the matches need to be blessed too?
September 21 at 10:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I call tNET magisterium on Fatima.
September 21 at 10:10pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz At TAC I had a running dialogue with Peter Miller, that started with talk of the 3 days, etc. I said, well Paul says the Jews will come to the Church before the end. That hasn't happened, so the end is not here.
He caught me in the parking lot one day. "Hey did you here, the Jew converted...ALL of them...run to the hills!"
We also called each other cracker and white bread and threaned to carve each other...in front of Mr. Nieto...at Mr. Nieto's home....he gave us some odd looks
September 21 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Michael, I'm pretty sure the "no new revelation" claim is a fairly specific claim: it means that with the writing of the Apocalypse (or whichever was the chronologically last book of the Bible), everything necessary for Salvation had been revealed. I don't think it's meant to indicate that apparitions/etc. won't happen.
September 21 at 10:11pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Samantha most catholics are impious. You might improve that department.
September 21 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, both the Rosary and the Brown Scapular were originally matters of private revelation.
September 21 at 10:12pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, the Brown Scapular is scandalous. Also, I would like to never pray the Rosary again.
September 21 at 10:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And the Prayer to St. Michael "St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle . . ." is reported to have been written in response to a private revelation.
September 21 at 10:13pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Scandalous?
September 21 at 10:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah. As in, a scandal.
September 21 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Not sure what basis a Catholic would have to think that (I'm not forgetting you aren't a Catholic): The Church is pretty insistent on the importance of material things in aiding one's salvation: Holy Water, Blessed Salt/Oils.
September 21 at 10:16pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe "Those who die wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire." That's a scandalous claim
September 21 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, the Scapular is part of the habit of the Carmelites, Franciscans and Dominicans: not exactly fringe Catholic groups.
September 21 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Why? It's just another sacramental.
September 21 at 10:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But it is true that no revelation after that is public. And hence none of it must be believed. But to reject all of it I think is just as dangerous, and can be scandalous, especially when we have liturgical feasts under those titles.
I believe in Fatima, but I rarely think of it. It is not the object of faith, after all.
What is good, for example prayer, the Rosary, etc need not be so tied (oh Edward Langley, scapulars in general were derived from the religious habit regardless of whether this or that one bases itself on private revelation. The rosary appears to predate St. Domininic, and there are many versions of the rosary, not just Our Lady's Psalter...and the prayer written by Leo XIII was a different prayer, much longer than the short version that was established from after low Mass)
Oh and Mrs. Cohoe has reminded me I need a new brown scapular. I will say, though, that some of what some TACers said about it amounted to superstition, as if the sacramental, qua physical object, was a talisman of salvation, rather than a sensible reminder of devotion.
September 21 at 10:17pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I might be wrong, Joshua, about the Dominicans and Franciscans: but I remember hearing that their habit includes the brown Scapular.
September 21 at 10:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley And this seems to confirm that: http://www.3op.org/faq.php (last q)
FAQ
Answer: The Dominican Fraternities exists because it is a gift from God for His Church through the Dominican...
3OP.ORG
September 21 at 10:21pm · Like · Remove Preview
Joshua Kenz You are wrong The Dominicans stole theirs from the Nobertines!
The Dominican scapular is white. The Brown Scapular, formerly only able to be blessed by a Carmelite priest, is still tied to the Carmelites, the feast of Mt. Carmel, etc
The Franciscan's scapular is brown, but is not the same as "The Brown Scapular." Both OP and OFM (small) scapulars are fairly novel (like 20th century novel)
September 21 at 10:25pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz The Benedictine's Black Scapular is fairly old.
Remember 3rd orders were funny thing. The Dominicans absorbed many penitential societies, but did not really associate them closely with themselves until after Trent, as a way from protecting them against the Franciscans who were seizing all such and forcing them under their rule. (St. Catherine of Sienna in a Dominican habit! hah...really was a b beguine under the protection of the Order of Preachers, lest her group be forcibly Franciscanized)
September 21 at 10:25pm · Edited · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne The claim re: the Brown Scapular is no more scandalous than the Apostolic Pardon, Absolution or anything else which can be abused. No one can know another's intent. I can "confess" my sins without sorrow or a firm purpose of amendment and claim that receiving absolution from a Priest on my death bed will save me. It won't. Does that mean that Absolution is a scandal? Of course not. Abusing Absolution is scandalous - as is wearing a sacramental disingenuously.
September 21 at 10:27pm · Like · 3
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Marie Pitt-Payne PS - similarly a wedding ring....
September 21 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, anyone who thinks that the Scapular is an excuse for license is just asking to be surprised at the last minute.
September 21 at 10:29pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe The scandal isn't the prospect of abuse, the promise itself is an invitation to superstitious understanding. All the qualifications that have to be added make the promise meaningless at best.
September 21 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The comparison to a wedding ring misses the point completely
September 21 at 10:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz There were some at TAC who took it that it was impossible to be damned if wearing it...if pressed they would claim stories like "this guy was unrepentant, and before he died it fell off" Well if it is just going to fall off if you sin, well what does that say of the promise? The promise is supposed to be hopeful not, well if you are damned, it will fall off.
So the promise should be read as: those who follow what wearing this scapular symbolises, who are wearing it "honestly" shall not be lost. But that just means one who follows God and perseveres is not lost. So really, what was the point of the promise? Is it that if you stick to the way of life, originally Carmelite spirituality, embodied in this, you will in fact persevere in following God, because to do this is to follow God, in a particular way? Yep I think it is that last one, but I do think that many fans don't present it that way...
September 21 at 10:41pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley "And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."
September 21 at 10:41pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne Ok Samantha. Let Father Kavanaugh know that. He uses the wedding ring analogy. He is the English translator of the writings of both St.Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, a member of the Institute of Carmelite Studies and was the vice postulator for the canonization of St.Edith Stein.
September 21 at 10:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley (not to say that that promise is Scripture, but it's a feature of revelation in general that it's often obscure and requires interpretation).
September 21 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald I've been discovering the Anchorage Cathedral, Holy Family, of late. Dominican. Rosary ever morning and not what I'm used to. They skip the three Hail Marys for faith, hope, and charity. But it's also not the Dominican Rosary. I've been looking around for an explanation but haven't found one. As to the brown scapula: this one seems the standard. Right? There are others worn by members of Orders, but the one for laymen is the smaller one, right?
As to the Rosary. Apparently, few Dominicans believe the Virgin Mary gave the Rosary to St. Dominic. But the rarely say so in public.
September 21 at 10:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Scandal = lead into sin. You accuse Our Lady of leading souls to sin. There is the attachment of the rosary of course. All that remains. But to persevere in that is not for those of false devotion or superstition. Or Our Lady will lead them out of such. She will crush the head of the serpent and that hour approaches.
September 21 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The 3 Hail Marys and Our Father is not part of the Rosary which is Our Lady's Psalter. If you read St. Louis Marie de Montefort, you would see he starts it as one does the traditional office ( O Lord open my lips to proclaim thy praise...) and the veni Sancte Spiritus.
September 21 at 10:49pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger She is much more powerful in these times than you can imagine and more beloved of God than all men and angels combined. If superstition cause one to begin the scapular, it is not the reason they will persevere. Impossible.
September 21 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The fine line of superstition....
September 21 at 10:58pm · Like
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John FitzGerald Kenz: came across Montefort. Didn't recognize that version either. All I knew was being out of the church for a little while, next thing I know JPII adds The Luminous.
September 21 at 11:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger If you want a sure path though or the surest by far. That is TRUE DEVOTION of Louis de Montfort. That kind of blows away the superstition.
September 21 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Wouldn't worry about luminous, pray them or not. I think folks have unnecessary scruples over being supertitious actually.
September 21 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill http://www.catholic.com/.../michell.../a-mission-for-st-jude
A Mission for St. Jude
Whenever I go to eucharistic adoration, I have a little ritual that I follow, something I consider to be a good deed...
CATHOLIC.COM
September 21 at 11:15pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell There is an ad in my side-bar now for "crowdsourced menswear" ... the name of this menswear is "Gustin" ... probably because of the earlier mentions of Molly.
September 21 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward Langley I wear a brown scapular.... with a miraculous medal attached.
September 21 at 11:16pm · Unlike · 3
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John FitzGerald I wear one myself, though w/o the medal. Can say I fault some for believing superstitiously, where it's concerned. The lady who explained its purpose sort of implied as much, and I'm sure she didn't mean to.
September 21 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger those are mine. Miraculous medal is way cool.
September 21 at 11:21pm · Like
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John FitzGerald Sorry, I meant that I cannot say that I fault...
September 21 at 11:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Some may seem superstitious who simply have a great deal of confidence in Our Lady. Can be mistaken especially by those without faith. . . . apropos Joshua's status.
September 21 at 11:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Looking back on comments, I have to say that the scapular (and medal) I see as a badge of my devotion to Our Lady, however poor that be. Also a sign of her care for and fidelity to Our Lord and to me, as well as her special protection over me, the solitude of a real mother. The medal and its prayer also have a profound meaning, a whole spirituality in itself - amazing really. True devotion carries it further but I would be lost without it, no doubt.
September 21 at 11:47pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson http://www.stpeterslist.com/.../7-things-you-should-know.../
6 Things You Should Know about the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel | St....
STPETERSLIST.COM
September 22 at 12:02am · Like
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Sean Robertson “Wear the Scapular devoutly and perseveringly. It is my garment. To be clothed in it means you are continually thinking of me, and I in turn, am always thinking of you and helping you to secure eternal life.”
I think people often overlook this very important aspect in favour of only focusing on the moment of death part.
September 22 at 12:05am · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger ^this
September 22 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think the constant physical presence of the blessed item close to one's skin reminds one to behave accordingly.
September 22 at 12:08am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia My key chain for my car is a miraculous medal.
September 22 at 12:09am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson #sacramentalgnosis
September 22 at 12:10am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia ^nice
September 22 at 12:10am · Like
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John Boyer so how many ages and epochs have I missed?
September 22 at 12:24am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia a lot
September 22 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Eh. No biggie. They'll come around again.
September 22 at 12:27am · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov This thread should be published and made into a huge leather-bound tome and displayed as art at some prestigious gallery. The public will just eat up the narcism mixed with naval gazing tech debating philosophy and raw exposure of religion, and politics from what seems to be lunatics escaped from an asylum in the California mountains.
September 22 at 12:35am · Unlike · 7
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Jeff Neill The other day I found a photo of Molly Gustin at La Cabana having a liter turbo margarita... Good times
September 22 at 12:37am · Unlike · 5
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John FitzGerald Punctuated by occasional bursts of humorous truth; we cannot deny that.
September 22 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Post it, Jeff!
September 22 at 12:39am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ah crud... Let me find it.
September 22 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wow ... only 200 away from the big 2-OH.
September 22 at 12:41am · Like
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Isak Benedict We got this.
September 22 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Honest question. What IS superstition exactly anyway, and what's wrong with it?
September 22 at 12:45am · Like
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Edward Langley Superstition is an excess to which the virtue of religion is opposed.
September 22 at 12:46am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://youtu.be/wDZFf0pm0SE
Stevie Wonder ~ Superstition
Stevie Wonder in the studio 1973 [Superstition]
YOUTUBE.COM
September 22 at 12:46am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I can dig that Ed
September 22 at 12:47am · Like
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Jeff Neill Did you check out my catholic answers link? They had a few more articles on superstition.
September 22 at 12:47am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell As a textual starting point, you could do worse.
September 22 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill
September 22 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Haha... Just kidding here it is (sorry no scanner... These are traditional photos)
September 22 at 12:52am · Like · 4
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John Boyer What is the defect? Doubt? Skepticism? Agnosticism?
September 22 at 1:04am · Like
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John Boyer Daniel, now all I can think of is that series of bud light football ads from a few years back.
September 22 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Thanks, Jeff!
September 22 at 1:05am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The defect is irreligion (tempting God, simony, perjury, sacrilege)
September 22 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Makes sense.
September 22 at 1:06am · Like
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Jeff Neill http://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/superstition "excess of religion"
Superstition | Catholic Answers
"I have been listening to you on EWTN for about a year now. I left the Catholic Church 42 years ago. After many...
CATHOLIC.COM
September 22 at 1:10am · Like
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John Boyer Is this a natural virtue? My guess is yes.
September 22 at 1:11am · Like
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Jeff Neill I found my old shoe box of school photos, nearly all will never visit the Internet or be digitized. As photographer, my goal was to never be photographed.
September 22 at 1:13am · Like
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Edward Langley John Boyer, religion is a natural virtue, ergo irreligion and superstition are too.
September 22 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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John Boyer As a photographer, that was never a goal but it was a effect. Most pictures of me from my active days are of me looking through the camera.
September 22 at 1:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Within superstition Aquinas includes undue worship of the true God, idolatry, divination, and observances. Actually, to these last three Aquinas calls them the "superstition of divination, the superstition of"
After all, Francis and Dominic both practiced divination (with Missals), hence the Gospel passage that inspired Francis (not heard at a Mass, but picked by flipping the Missal open and putting his finger down) and the motto of the OP's, taken from the Preface of the BVM
Undue worship is in observing the rites of the Jews, which, since Christ has come, and they foreshadow Him, are now a lie. And in impersonating the whole Church. And this happens when one offers worship contrary to the use of the Church, while acting on the part of the Church, whether this be against divine or human authority or ecclesiatical custom. So in acting for the Church, a priest commits liturgical abuses, he has sinned through superstition. This seems odd, but as Aquinas says
Et ideo quidquid homo faciat quod pertinet ad Dei gloriam, et ad hoc quod mens hominis Deo subiiciatur, et etiam corpus per moderatam refrenationem concupiscentiarum, secundum Dei et Ecclesiae ordinationem, et consuetudinem eorum quibus homo convivit, non est superfluum in divino cultu. Si autem aliquid sit quod quantum est de se non pertinet ad Dei gloriam, neque ad hoc quod mens hominis feratur in Deum, aut quod carnis concupiscentiae moderate refrenantur; aut etiam si sit praeter Dei et Ecclesiae institutionem, vel contra consuetudinem communem (quae secundum Augustinum, pro lege habenda est). Totum hoc reputandum est superfluum et superstitiosum, quia, in exterioribus solum consistens, ad interiorem Dei cultum non pertinet. Unde Augustinus, in libro de vera Relig., inducit quod dicitur Luc. XVII, regnum Dei intra vos est, contra superstitiosos, qui scilicet exterioribus principalem curam impendunt.
September 22 at 1:15am · Like
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Edward Langley (obviously not denying that there is more to religion than the natural virtue).
September 22 at 1:15am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Joshua, I just want to let you know I actually read through the Latin this time.
September 22 at 1:16am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Also pertinent are "observances" (which has to do with "magic" incantations, throwing salt over your shoulder...)
in omnibus incantationibus vel Scripturis suspensis duo cavenda videntur. Primo quidem, quid sit quod profertur vel scribitur. Quia si est aliquid ad invocationes Daemonum pertinens, manifeste est superstitiosum et illicitum. Similiter etiam videtur esse cavendum, si contineat ignota nomina, ne sub illis aliquid illicitum lateat. Unde Chrysostomus dicit, super Matth., quod, Pharisaeorum magnificantium fimbrias suas exemplo, nunc multi aliqua nomina Hebraica Angelorum confingunt et scribunt et alligant, quae non intelligentibus metuenda videntur. Est etiam cavendum ne aliquid falsitatis contineat. Quia sic eius effectus non posset expectari a Deo, qui non est testis falsitatis deinde, secundo, cavendum est ne cum verbis sacris contineantur ibi aliqua vana, puta aliqui characteres inscripti, praeter signum crucis. Aut si spes habeatur in modo scribendi aut ligandi, aut in quacumque huiusmodi vanitate quae ad divinam reverentiam non pertineat. Quia hoc iudicaretur superstitiosum. Alias autem est licitum. Unde in decretis dicitur, XXVI, qu. V, cap. non liceat Christianis etc., nec in collectionibus herbarum quae medicinales sunt aliquas observationes aut incantationes liceat attendere, nisi tantum cum symbolo divino aut oratione dominica, ut tantum creator omnium et Deus honoretur.
It seems fair that some treat the scapular this way, as a talisman. Read the whole of S. Th. II-II q. 93 and q. 96 a. 4 is helpful here
September 22 at 1:21am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Btw, q re scapular. If you aren't doing the associated devotions on the reg, is it really worth wearing, ie are any of the associated promises good because the necessary devotions productive of the necessary virtues aren't present? I've heard contradictory things.
September 22 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald C'mon, people; only 185 shy!
September 22 at 1:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Let's fight about something
September 22 at 1:24am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Fight!
September 22 at 1:27am · Like
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Sam Rocha ok.
September 22 at 1:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!!!
September 22 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz You electric donkey bottom biter
September 22 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell No, you've come to the wrong place. This is insults. Arguments is next door.
September 22 at 1:27am · Like · 4
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John Boyer Aquinas was wrong about...
September 22 at 1:29am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
September 22 at 1:29am · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha Your insults suck ass.
September 22 at 1:29am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer Joshua , no.
September 22 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I fart in your general direction
September 22 at 1:30am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The white man persecuted and oppressed the Native Americans to such a shameful extent that there can be no reconciliation, no amends possible. Discuss.
September 22 at 1:30am · Like
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Joshua Kenz No he didn't
September 22 at 1:30am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes he did
September 22 at 1:30am · Like
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John Boyer Casinos are a way to transfer wealth.
September 22 at 1:31am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha http://www.patheos.com/.../2013/02/white-history-month/
“White History Month”
Two years ago, during my first year of teaching at Wabash College, I was invited to give a “Chapel Talk,” a weekly...
PATHEOS.COM
September 22 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Ding. Good afternoon.
September 22 at 1:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict Bullfighting. For or against?
September 22 at 1:31am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Claim: The Detroit Lions will come out atop the NFC North by the end of the season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Beitia
September 22 at 1:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:List_of...
Wikipedia:List of controversial issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a list of Wikipedia articles deemed controversial because they are constantly being re-edited in a circular manner, or are otherwise the focus of edit warring or article sanctions. This page is conceived as a location for articles that regularly become biased and need to be fixed, or article…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 22 at 1:31am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
September 22 at 1:32am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Yes you are.
September 22 at 1:32am · Like
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Joshua Kenz De Koninck is overrated
September 22 at 1:32am · Like · 2
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John FitzGerald Yeah, and destroy the places immediately surrounding the casinos.
September 22 at 1:32am · Like
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John Boyer Gilson is the only true Thomist.
September 22 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
September 22 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Isak: I am pro bullfighting. But only if they let you try it.
September 22 at 1:33am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Sex should be spelled "reproduction".
September 22 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Hands over five dollars. Ok. But I wasn't arguing.
September 22 at 1:34am · Like
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John FitzGerald Only if f*ck you is a synonym.
September 22 at 1:34am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Prohibition didn't fail.
September 22 at 1:36am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Can we all be serious for a moment?
We all know the most controversial question you can ask a bunch of TACers....opposite sex allowed in the common area of dorms, at least during the day?
September 22 at 1:37am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz How else are we supposed to find a mate...that is why the girls go there, right?
September 22 at 1:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^If you allow that, Joshua, the college might as well pass out condoms.
September 22 at 1:38am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Why is it so hard for women to find men that are sensitive, caring, and good-looking?
September 22 at 1:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^My wife had no trouble at all.
September 22 at 1:39am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Because those men already have boyfriends.
September 22 at 1:39am · Unlike · 4
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Joshua Kenz Well she may have gotten 2 out of 3
September 22 at 1:39am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict OH SNAP
September 22 at 1:39am · Like · 3
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John Boyer And then they died and she married Daniel. BURN!
September 22 at 1:39am · Like · 2
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John FitzGerald Nah, isn't necessary, Joshua. There are all kinds of ways to socialize...or is it fratrenize with the fair sex. .. you really think that's necessary?
September 22 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Interesting. Pope Francis just reiterated Benedict's Regensburg address, in essence...and the libs love him for it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../pope-francis-extremist...
Pope Francis Slams Extremists Who 'Pervert Religion'
* Francis makes first papal trip to Albania in 21 years *...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
September 22 at 1:41am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer I think they should put on the dating game at dances. Would help the quieter people find a spouse.
September 22 at 1:41am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Hey Steubenville allows them to visit each other's dorm rooms, as long as the door is open...or at last did last I checked..we should be more like Steubie!
September 22 at 1:41am · Like
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Isak Benedict Ew why would anyone want to visit a girl's dorm room
September 22 at 1:42am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman It is shocking to me how many pre-marital pregnancies come out of the Christopher West TOB culture.
September 22 at 1:42am · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Sh*t, while you all were making funnies, (and yours was the best, Isak,) I was answering the question asked by Mr. Can We Please Just Get Serious Here For A Second, and ....
Oh, I give up.
September 22 at 1:42am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Unless francis analyzed the breakdown of theology in relation to philosophy using an analysis of logos I'm not reading it.
September 22 at 1:43am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I also think the way the girls dress at USC should be adopted as dress code at TAC...very minimalist, easy to get a man that way
September 22 at 1:43am · Like · 4
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John Boyer I don't really know Christopher West but I already don't like him.
September 22 at 1:43am · Like
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Joshua Kenz In case no one can tell I am trying badly to troll
September 22 at 1:43am · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Haha ... I'm still blocked by josh after calling his beliefs chauvinistic. Without his comments, the rest reads funny.
September 22 at 1:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We have a lecturer coming here who is going to lecture on "The Metaphysical Errors of Christopher West's Deconstruction of St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body." Should be interesting.
September 22 at 1:43am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joshua I appreciate how poor you are at trolling.
September 22 at 1:44am · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman You must have a greater antipathy towards rational discourse in order to be successful.
September 22 at 1:45am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I knew he sucked after listening to five minutes of a tall he gave here in Houston as part of the diocese's young adults series. It was dumbed down and sounded like a Protestant
September 22 at 1:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^He isn't all bad.
September 22 at 1:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Popularizers always cause certain difficulties.
September 22 at 1:46am · Unlike · 3
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John Boyer Well, like I said, I barely know the guys work so this is all prejudging.
September 22 at 1:46am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman remembers me finding where Liguori speaks of certain shameful acts West said could be licit in marriage... , because, as he claimed, as long as it ended the right way, just about anything was fine leading up to it. Not to mention the immodestly of speaking about irrumatio and pedicactio to teens and young adults.
September 22 at 1:46am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Yeah. Imprudent.
September 22 at 1:47am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill By the guy do you mean st. JP2? Or Christopher west?
September 22 at 1:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Christopher West.
September 22 at 1:48am · Like
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John Boyer As a friend of mine once said, "It's not gay. It's anal play." He was joking but I think there are too many people who don't think about it in too much detail.
September 22 at 1:48am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think his main fault is that he never really studied any actual theology...he only read JPII, and that is being a fan, nor a moral theologian...JPII is difficult enough...not knowing the tradition makes it easy to make grave errors reading him. Such as thinking that such impure acts (os impurum or even worse, imperfecta sodomia) were licit in marriage.
September 22 at 1:48am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Precisely.
September 22 at 1:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill What would be too much detail?
September 22 at 1:50am · Like
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John Boyer I have two problems with JPII. 1) Not a fan of his writing style. 2) fanboys who don't really understand the underlying issues.
Plus why should I care about Max Scheiler? Or however you spell it.
September 22 at 1:50am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman In general, I grow increasingly annoyed at the uneducated commenting on matters "too high" for them.
September 22 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Isn't that the guy who compared Hugh Hefner to JPII?
September 22 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Yep.
September 22 at 1:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
September 22 at 1:50am · Like
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Joshua Kenz About the women in dorms...there were some who argued we should adopt a Steubie policy...majority I remember were against it, but many thought that daytime visitation to the courtyard (not beyond) was fine...and maybe. But I liked having a place for just men...especially after seeing a USC guy come into the lobby in a bath towel having locked himself out of his room...well if girls were around, modesty would restrict us and we would have to change after a shower in the bathroom, and in general behave differently
September 22 at 1:50am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Daniel, what matters are too high for whom? Isn't this the topic of meno?
September 22 at 1:51am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So, in other words, Joshua, behave like civilized people?
September 22 at 1:52am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is a safe haven for the women too to live in an area where the men can't go. For more reasons than modesty and sexual temptation.
September 22 at 1:52am · Like · 6
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Jeff Neill Many college boys do not understand personal space or stalking. The first few weeks of the year are best spent sitting on the smoker's patio watching the whole campus of freshmen constantly hitting on every female that passes.
September 22 at 1:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, in general, one ought not to attempt to comment authoritatively on matters that one has no idea about.
For example,
1. I do not, as a rule, debate about what kind of rocket design SapceX should use. Why? I know little to nothing about rocket design.
2. Christopher West ought not, as a rule, comment about matters of moral theology because he knows little to nothing about moral theology.
September 22 at 1:56am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz The problem is Lendman, when you say that it gets dismissed as arrogant...but it is not really. MacArthur thought a majo problem was being "educated beyond one's capacity" which I suppose is similar.
I have gotten backlash for not answering certain questions but telling someone to study X, Y, an Z first. But no, someone reads a short and misleading article, say and predestination, and now they feel they have to "pick a side" and Molinism just sounds better, but what they hold is actually semi-Pelagian and because they didn't actually understand the issues, which presumes studying things prior to that debate, they come off as fools. And the same goes for tons of amateurish theological speculating that everyone and his dog thinks they are competent to do...as long as the Church hasn't defined something de fide, I can be as speculative as I want! And you must respect my opinion, even ifI know nothing at all about what I am pontificating on.
As you can tell this has been a pet peeve of mine...even those fully capable of learning the subjects, rather follow the trail of curiosity and controversy, rather than restraining judgement until being learned enough. Perhaps most of us do that from time to time though.
September 22 at 1:56am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell 100 more to go guys. Let's get a move on. I'd like to be in bed before the clock strikes 2:30.
September 22 at 1:56am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Gah. I can't catch up on why you want to nail Christopher West but you can't knock his results. He speaks to the culture and is transmitting the sense of what JPII wanted to say. I've done both -- CW and Waldstein's translation of TOB. CW is like the fast food version; the original is a feast.
September 22 at 1:57am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But some people will only stop for fast food
September 22 at 1:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, once again, precisely.
September 22 at 1:57am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And if you read 'Love and Responsibility' Wojtyla is pretty explicit about how a husband should treat his wife.
September 22 at 1:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jody, I have been rather scandalized at the number of Christopher West followers who, 1. Have children outside of wedlock and 2. Think that NFP is the only way marriage could ever exist and endure.
September 22 at 1:58am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Love and Responsibility is quite good.
September 22 at 1:59am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is enough to hold CW responsible for what he says; his followers might be another thing. But really, he has stopped more people from using ABC than those who abuse NFP
September 22 at 1:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Like I said above, he is not all bad.
September 22 at 2:00am · Like
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Joshua Kenz o'Connell Well, there are certain things that are fine in the company of men that are not in mixed company...such as certain moral questions, advice, the sort of consolation one can take with other men, that they simply cannot do with cootie-infested girls (okay the last part was tongue in cheek)
I am sure women often need the same thing. Man and wife even, though that differs too (they can discuss and hear things together that are immodest in unmarried mixed company, such as the details of NFP )
September 22 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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John Boyer ^This from Daniel Lendman
September 22 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Anyone read acting person besides me?
September 22 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau CW isn't talking to the philosophy and theology crowd. He's talking to the ones who have bought into secular culture
September 22 at 2:00am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Where did you get a copy John?
September 22 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Popularising complicated theological texts is always difficult and rather dangerous.
September 22 at 2:01am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I hear Acting Person is amazing
September 22 at 2:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I hold West accountable for a disgusting view on os ipurum and imperfecta sodomia. They inherently are abusive and objectivising of the women, contrary his radical claims about that.
September 22 at 2:01am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I studied Person & Act in its entirety with Janet Smith one semester at Dallas.
September 22 at 2:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Someone who does not grasp fundamental principles is more likely to make errors.
September 22 at 2:01am · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Acting Person is indecipherable
September 22 at 2:01am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Christopher West makes errors.
September 22 at 2:01am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, but Daniel - this is one text that can't stay in the libraries and seminaries! It would be almost useless there
September 22 at 2:01am · Like
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John Boyer YES!
September 22 at 2:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman True, Jody.
September 22 at 2:03am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Person & Act is not indecipherable ... it's just a very complex text (and the translation doesn't really help matters). It pays careful study, if one is interested in a phenomenological ethics that has a good critique of Kantian normative ethics.
September 22 at 2:03am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I do not condemn Christopher West and his efforts. I have even learned something from him.
September 22 at 2:04am · Like
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Jeff Neill Lendman, I had to look CW up, since I have never heard of him. But fortunately for me he has a website and he says he is totally pro, and he's been on tv.
September 22 at 2:04am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau CW has to recognize his limitations and be humble about that.
September 22 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The point is, however, is that he oversteps some bounds.
September 22 at 2:04am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Popularity can be a heady experience
September 22 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I had to take course on phil of JP2. I found it annoying. Everyone else in course found me annoying for complaining both positions were right
September 22 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau He's like a TOB rock star
September 22 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But let's face it -- without CW, most Catholics would still not know anything about TOB.
September 22 at 2:05am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau How many of you have read the original (outside of taking a class)?
September 22 at 2:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Certainly in America that is true.
September 22 at 2:05am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I say that about Acting Person, having read it multiple times and used it in my abortive thesis... I don't see "ToTB" as unorthodox, but nor do I see it as some sort of answer to the world's problems. The text is far more muddled than it needs be, because frankly that was how he wrote. Not all of that is the translator' fault, though that doesn't help, as the translator makes the text unclear on some important points, especially how to relate some of his claims to perennial philosophy
September 22 at 2:05am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I wouldn't mind most Catholics never hearing anything about "ToB"
September 22 at 2:06am · Unlike · 7
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Jody Haaf Garneau You're kidding Joshua!
September 22 at 2:06am · Like
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Jeff Neill Which class are you referring to?
September 22 at 2:06am · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, I really am not.
September 22 at 2:06am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is amazing! And it has a lot more to say about the human person that just procreation
September 22 at 2:06am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You have to give it a fair reading.
September 22 at 2:06am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have. I find it overrated
September 22 at 2:07am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I wish Pater Edmund's dad would lead online seminars on TOB for TAC graduates.
September 22 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it is an important teaching. And very much of moment.
September 22 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Can someone explain what is meant by TOB before we hit 20,000?
September 22 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell For the uninitiated ...
September 22 at 2:07am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We are one of the stumbling blocks to it being taught in the church (TACers and other orthodox thinking theologians). We are resistant to the expression.
September 22 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, I think part of the reason you experience it that way is because of your awareness and connection to the the whole of Church Teaching.
September 22 at 2:08am · Like
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Sam Rocha I read the Wed. lectures. Not in a class.
September 22 at 2:08am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I think many of his personal opinions on certain points are in fact wrong....not least taking a "phenomenological" approach...
September 22 at 2:08am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Theology of the Body -- but you knew that right?
September 22 at 2:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Got it. I didn't know that just as ToB though.
September 22 at 2:08am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Sam -- if you get a chance, take Fr Alan Boisclar's classes that he gives in the Archdiocese
September 22 at 2:09am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Perhaps, but I see almost every admiring theologian of JPII muddle things with the obfuscatory method of "phenomenology" There is some limited application and benefit, but preaching to the masses ain't one of them. And it would be a mistake to think "ToB" is Church teaching
September 22 at 2:09am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz It includes opinions that, while are defensible, are his opinions qua private theologian
September 22 at 2:09am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Joshua -- 'his personal opinions' as in JPII? Or CW?
September 22 at 2:09am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I guess I feel like when you compare the work of JPII and Benedict, you have to admit that JPII was a philosopher, someone who was interested in working out a philosophical anthropology of the human person, whereas Benedict was a dyed-in-the-wool theologian.
September 22 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Can you imagine how obscure and disorienting it would have been for the "common man" to go to the Wednesday audiences while JPII was giving his TOB series????
September 22 at 2:10am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz While of course also defending central aspects of Church teaching
September 22 at 2:10am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau No kidding Daniel -- it couldn't be understood that way.
September 22 at 2:10am · Like
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Joshua Kenz JPII's
September 22 at 2:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which makes one wonder about the prudence of such a delivery.
September 22 at 2:10am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think both JPII and BXVI will be Doctors of the Church some day
September 22 at 2:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Probably true.
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I highly doubt that
September 22 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But what option did he have?
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau A super long encyclical????
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Write a book.
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Sam Rocha Nope. Never gonna read anything else but The Jewellers Shop anymore, besides the encyclicals. I have very serious, but fairly obtuse and technical objections to his approach to phenomenology. I don't know enough about theology to have an opinion though.
September 22 at 2:11am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau No - it wouldn't have the theological weight
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Isak Benedict JPII a Doctor of the Church? Really?
September 22 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No, no. His addresses on Wednesday about TOB are not magesterial.
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The encyclical would have been wrong, as again not Church teaching here.
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Dr Waldstein wrote the 'book' that pulled it all together
September 22 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman JPII said that his project is purely speculative.
September 22 at 2:12am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz And is still not complete...he has some rough edges in it.
September 22 at 2:12am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau The Wednesday audiences hold a higher regard than you think Joshua
September 22 at 2:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman He was trying to encourage discussion.
September 22 at 2:12am · Like
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Joshua Kenz They are notmagisterial
September 22 at 2:12am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau He was trying to re-argue Humanae Vitae
September 22 at 2:12am · Like
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Sam Rocha I wish he would have said it [that his project is purely speculative] a few more times.
September 22 at 2:12am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell *cues Auld Lang Syne for the balloon drop at 20,000*
September 22 at 2:12am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Benedict wrote Jesus of Nazareth as a Theologian.
September 22 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I can reject them as such, and do reject certain aspects...and HV was a badly written encyclical as far as its argument goes
September 22 at 2:13am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman JPII should have done something similar.
September 22 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. Humanae Vitae...
September 22 at 2:13am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't think anyone who hasn't read it in whole should talk about rejecting any of it
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We are all still recovering from that FUBAR.
September 22 at 2:14am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau First do your homework.
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Matthew J. Peterson -- are you tuning in?
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Probably with some help -- since you don't know how to read anything that isn't presented in Thomistic terms
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think that is fair to ask.
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What is FUBA?
September 22 at 2:14am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It shocks me how myopic declaring any of the recent popes a Doctor would be. That title has already been fairly abused in its expansion, but still. There are several popes that I think all would recognize as greater teachers...like Benedict XIV, or Leo XIII. That is not a dig
September 22 at 2:15am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman ^edit.
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Why are you getting nasty?
September 22 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha I so wish he would have stuck to play writing, because it is amazing, even in translation it holds up, and actually does what phenomenology is supposed to do (i.e., imagine the real).
September 22 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I have read it all
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Guys, play nice. And ladies.
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ducked up beyond all repair
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm not being nasty, but honest
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman BTW. We made it.
September 22 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz No, you are making unwarranted assumptions
September 22 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Replace d with f
September 22 at 2:15am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Where is our fearless leader, Matthew J. Peterson?
September 22 at 2:16am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think the world can agree that JPII did not write clearly.
September 22 at 2:15am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yeah, I think the 'edit' post was the 20000th
September 22 at 2:16am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I have read all of JP II, and I have studied non Thomistic theology
September 22 at 2:16am · Like · 1
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Sam Rocha wait, has someone *not* read it? I was operating on the other side of the assumption...
September 22 at 2:16am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Heck, Lendman could vouch for what this means, but my paper on Husserl's theory of truth earned praise from Fr. Ramelow, who said I articulated things he had thought but couldn't articulate
September 22 at 2:17am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I haven't.
September 22 at 2:17am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am sure the majority of TAC alumni haven't read it
September 22 at 2:17am · Like · 1
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John Boyer "Thomistic Personalism" is a project for those who are super interested in phenomenology but it is neither necessary nor indispensable for answering these questions. If it works for you, God bless. However, since it requires thomistic metaphysics, it presupposes thomistic anthropology. I just don't see what it adds which couldn't be argued through traditional fields and means.
September 22 at 2:17am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz That may be true, and I have no problem with that
September 22 at 2:17am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha So much for my assumptions about TAC'ers...
September 22 at 2:17am · Like · 1
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John Boyer are we having a "read off" here?
September 22 at 2:17am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yep
September 22 at 2:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Didn't Lagrange, (JPIIs disertation director) say that he uses a lot of words to say very little.
September 22 at 2:18am · Unlike · 7
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Daniel P. O'Connell Janet Smith did an interesting course at UD, it was Acting Person read side-by-side with part of ST I-II ... I found it illuminating at any rate.
September 22 at 2:18am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict All is tNET, and tNET is all.
September 22 at 2:18am · Like · 8
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Jody Haaf Garneau So Joshua, I would ask you to explain exactly where JPII goes wrong --- but I have to get to bed. And by the time I come back, this part of the conversation will be gone. I think Dr Waldstein might differ from your position.
September 22 at 2:19am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What really bugs me is when people on the JPII side trash St Thomas; and the St Thomas people trash JPII. I think there is room for both.
September 22 at 2:20am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz JP II is not the end all. Were it not for some particular projects I had, I wouldn't have read him. There are many books most TACers haven't read that would be, in se, good to read. And while I would love everyone to read them all, let's be realistic. It is perfectly fine to have quite a few higher on your list than reading JPII, who quite frankly, while there is benefit in there, is not among the greats of history...and that is just fine. So when someone has read all of the actual Doctors, all of Aquinas, and Liguori, and many other things besides, maybe then I will say JPII should be next on your list. Until then, it is a matter of personal interest
September 22 at 2:20am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman ^There is. But it is really hard to work them both together.
September 22 at 2:21am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman's knows my writing were putting them together (or did I not send him excerpts from my thesis)
September 22 at 2:21am · Like · 1
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John Boyer What is the need for personalism?
September 22 at 2:22am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^There isn't.
September 22 at 2:22am · Like · 3
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John Boyer Exaaaaactly
September 22 at 2:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz My thesis was addressing JP II and St. Thomas, against a certain philosper's reading of JP II (namely against Crosby)
September 22 at 2:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell There is only one song epic enough for 20,000:
http://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw
Europe - The Final Countdown
Music video by Europe performing The Final Countdown. (C) 1986 SONY BMG MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT
YOUTUBE.COM
September 22 at 2:23am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman However, John, I would say that Personalism arose as a reaction to the neglect of the dignity of the individual. And that was a real problem.
September 22 at 2:23am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It was on Personhood and its dignity in St. Thomas, JP II and Crosby. I argued that on substantial points JP II was at least compatible with Thomas, as against Crosby I argued he skewed JP II to favor a pernicious form of personalism, but I also had some issues with JPII, including the relation of act to existence, and on the question of essentialism
September 22 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman One only needs to care about personalism, if you want to communicate to the majority of people today.
September 22 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Philosophy, in my opinion, need not be communicable to the many.
Theology, on the other hand, must always be evangelical.
September 22 at 2:25am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I'm not sure about that if we are talking about a particular type of phenomenology.
September 22 at 2:25am · Like
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John Boyer I mean philosophically.
September 22 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Even then Daniel Lendman, I think you have to be aware of the issues raised by Cardinal Villeneuve and De Koninck. In fact, I find that one of the big failings in JP II. There is a tension in his writings between the common good and individual dignity and rights, that I think dissolves when we follow Leo XIII's advice, "Ite ad Thomam" But that has as much to do with the questionable notion of subjective rights as personalism.
September 22 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, I think we are agreed on this matter.
September 22 at 2:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One can only express so much in brief, typed sentences.
September 22 at 2:29am · Like
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John Boyer Btw, can the FB app auto refresh the thread without having to go to notifications?
September 22 at 2:30am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Unfortunately so....when I finish writing my book on the whole subject, I will post it to TNET.... (actually I probably could make a book out of various articles, with some editing and additions....there are some lacunae to fill out)
September 22 at 2:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz FB app? You guys and your stupid smart phones
September 22 at 2:30am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Daniel -- to continue that thought about theology being evangelical (or digestible by more than the 'schools') -- we need a language to do that. JPII gives us a new language.
September 22 at 2:31am · Like
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John FitzGerald I agree, and though not used to it, found it quite sensible. Besides, now having heard from my wife what went on in some if thr girls' dorms.... I think it best if things remain as they be.
September 22 at 2:31am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^True, Jody, but I do not think that that is finally the language we should adopt.
September 22 at 2:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It had its place perhaps.
September 22 at 2:31am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Not as the basis for thought but it has a place in today's world. No?
September 22 at 2:32am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Again, if the truths expressed in TOB remain only in books, it is useless. It is meant to change hearts -- of the whole church; of the whole world.
September 22 at 2:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Also, I wish to make clear my meaning: I do not mean that Theology always must be for the masses. I do, however, mean that it must always be communicated \'today.'
September 22 at 2:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Those truths must be purified from the admixture of error and confusion.
September 22 at 2:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is the work of theologians.
September 22 at 2:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is, what I believe, JPII wanted theologians to do.
September 22 at 2:33am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't think there is as much error as you guys think there is. I think it is mostly misunderstanding
September 22 at 2:33am · Like
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John Boyer Judy, which point about language are you making? About the language of personalism and phenomenology or of the popularizer?
September 22 at 2:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like said, "...and confusion."
September 22 at 2:34am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I suppose both John.
September 22 at 2:34am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is the novelty that makes it indigestible outside of the schools....really that is one of the worst things in his writings. I remember Nieto and I poured over a text for a long time because he had abused a word and the meaning, given the normal meaning of the world, would have been heretical. It took as an hour to figure out in an earlier passage he used that word as well in a way that was nonsensical and even excluive of its traditional meaning. We had to look up another work of his to find what he meant by his peculiar and unclear use, and then the passage was orthodox.
You cannot tell me that couldn't be avoided by not reinventing the wheel on language (the issue, btw, was the word election, in the context of salvation and predestination)
September 22 at 2:35am · Like · 4
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John Boyer Ok. Just want to be clear.
September 22 at 2:35am · Like
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John FitzGerald I really hate it when one of my comments winds up a dozen places down from where it'd be comprehensible.
September 22 at 2:35am · Like · 7
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Jody Haaf Garneau What he is doing is appealing to the heart of the person (of every person) to draw out why this way would be best for the human person. As opposed to HV which just comes down with 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not' (just what most people expect from the Church)
September 22 at 2:35am · Like
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John Boyer There is a difference between style and terminology
September 22 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Joshua -- If you poured over it before the definitive translation by Dr Waldstein, it wouldn't have made complete sense. He unified the translations (5 different editors over 4 years of preaching)
September 22 at 2:36am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it was an encyclical Joshua was working on.
September 22 at 2:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman He wouldn't have cared as much in ToB.
September 22 at 2:37am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You can't read JPII the way you read St Thomas.
September 22 at 2:38am · Like · 1
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John Boyer ToB is it's own field, or so it strikes me.
September 22 at 2:38am · Like
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John Boyer No you can't. And that's my problem.
September 22 at 2:38am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And yes, JPII makes up words (drives me crazy; but he does it all the time - - so get used to it)
September 22 at 2:38am · Like
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John Boyer And I'm talking about the more academic works.
September 22 at 2:39am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Well, I better head off because I have a class in 8 hrs. But you can say you heard it first on tNET that JPII will be a Doctor of the Church
September 22 at 2:40am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I see the need to respond to Kant and his heirs, but I'm not sure using a similar method is how to do it.
September 22 at 2:40am · Like
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John Boyer It wouldn't surprise me
September 22 at 2:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz But what he ends up doing is sounding as incomprehensible as the German philosophers to most people. And those that claim to readily understand him, more often than not (with a few rare exceptions) don't. Don't get me started on the stupid attempts at applying the phenomenological method, following his example, by some of his followers (cough...Crosby and his fallacious argument against Thomist "essentialism...cough) And I am referring to just about his entire corpus, not just some Weds audiences. The issue I had was an encyclical of all places (I don't remember predestination coming up in ToB, seriously did it?).
And St. Thomas is succinct and clear, at least in se. So what was that about new language being needed? We need confusion? I am sorry that I don't think him a great thinker. A good thinker, por writer, perhaps, but great? Again, if you want to study it, that is fine. But it is not the panacea for the world. Christ is. Nor is it even the definitive work within its own field...a beginning of a project, not its final form, as it were.
September 22 at 2:41am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, the reason we need a new language is that people cannot understand St. Thomas. They are alienated.
September 22 at 2:43am · Like
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Joshua Kenz FB is a really difficult place to get into this....the issues I have trace back further than JPII, e.g. to moralities of conscience, to subjective rights, to a ambiguation of the notion of the common good (I mean really JP II clearly has difficulty reconciling the primacy of the common good with individual dignity...he says as much himself)
September 22 at 2:44am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Benedict wrote about how, as a young theologian, he found Aquinas off-putting and incomprehensible.
September 22 at 2:44am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^edited.
September 22 at 2:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think that the world is largely alienated from its history and from the Traditions and teachings of the Church. Mostly due to modernism.
September 22 at 2:45am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Daniel, what is the best language to use then? I think the technical language needs to stay because it does what it's supposed to do. Not disagreeing. Just curious.
September 22 at 2:45am · Like
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John Boyer I think any philosophy/theology must have difficult technical language in order to maintain precision.
September 22 at 2:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, the way I see it, is that modernism almost completely broke our connection with our past culture, philosophy, and traditions. Consequently, with regard to how we are connected to doctrine, (and NOT with regard to authority) we are in, as it were, a new patristic era.
September 22 at 2:48am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict ^Very interesting thought.
September 22 at 2:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman We need to speak in the terms of today, in order to get people back to the truth of Catholic Doctrine.
September 22 at 2:49am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Hmm.
September 22 at 2:49am · Like
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Isak Benedict How do you respond to the claim that Pope Francis himself is a modernist, Daniel?
September 22 at 2:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is a "riff" on John Seniors view. I think he was too extreme, but he saw something.
September 22 at 2:49am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not talking about preaching in scholastic jargon, whether Aquinas' or others (who quit frequently, all the way to the 20th century, used terms differently than Thomas). But using the word "election was a great example...if you used it as JP II did in (I think it was Redemptor...) then you read the word in scripture in the same sense...and now you are in error. As far scary words like transubstantiation, natural law, etc, the words that are necessary for the faithful in general are relatively easy (if they are truly listening and not just bored kids forced in CCD) to get across sufficiently well.
As far as the schools go, well Benedict had the misfortune of being under the influence of obfuscators...I will leave it at that Personally I found Aristo-Thomas jargon quite natural.
When I was 4 or 5, the first argument I remember having, was over the size of the universe and my argument that it was not infinite in size to my brother because it had to have boundaries in order to be a size...
September 22 at 2:50am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Interesting.
September 22 at 2:50am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The Patristic era is not one known for clarity of argument, thought, or terminology
September 22 at 2:50am · Like · 9
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Joshua Kenz JP II would fit right in
September 22 at 2:50am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Isak, I would probably agree with that. We are all influenced by modernity. However, I would have to insist on a very nuanced meaning.
September 22 at 2:51am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua for Pope
September 22 at 2:51am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, that is my point exactly, about the patristic era.
September 22 at 2:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Also, Joshua, you are hardly "everyman."
September 22 at 2:52am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz So who would be our Boethius, that pre-cursor to the clarity of Aquinas...sure he was imperfect, but he foreshaows the scholastics....
September 22 at 2:52am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I would agree with Joshua though that the scholastic terminology brought clarity to my own thought.
September 22 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John, mine also. But we are few. Very few.
September 22 at 2:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The problems with scholastic terminology today are not "ontological" they are circumstantial.
September 22 at 2:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, I nominate you to be the next Boethius.
September 22 at 2:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Hurry up and get a doctorate already, damn it.
September 22 at 2:55am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz It is funny that my email (got it right before TAC) is severinus.boethius @ gmail .com
September 22 at 2:56am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^#destiny
September 22 at 2:56am · Like
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John Boyer We need to distinguish between reaching out to the educated/theologically and philosophically inclined, who we should try to encourage to adopt our language, and the common man. One step at a time. And the basics of our terms (actual, potential, etc) are easily grasped.
September 22 at 2:57am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman or, #emailgnosis.
September 22 at 2:57am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The prudential questions, John, are the hardest.
September 22 at 2:57am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Dang...if I am Boethius, does that mean I eventually get imprisoned and executed for treason?
September 22 at 2:57am · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman doomed^
September 22 at 2:58am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^#keepblogging.
September 22 at 2:58am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman #theyarewatchingyou
September 22 at 2:58am · Like · 1
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John Boyer I'm all for using basic terms with laymen. I reject the notion that they can't understand at all. We need to explain when we talk.
September 22 at 2:59am · Like · 1
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John Boyer NSA
September 22 at 2:59am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well I am going to pour another glass of wine then...eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
September 22 at 2:59am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman John, there needs to be a re-establishment of fundamental principles.
September 22 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Philosophically speaking, we live in another "pre-Socratic age."
September 22 at 3:00am · Like · 5
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John Boyer ^THIS
September 22 at 3:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Get to work Socrates.
September 22 at 3:01am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer That's why I don't like thomists who don't engage with the Parmenideses and Zenos of our day.
September 22 at 3:01am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman You are also doomed, btw.
September 22 at 3:01am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Would I be a conservative if I didn't think that?
September 22 at 3:02am · Like · 1
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John Boyer http://ecx.images-amazon.com/.../51LKNcGX4wL._SY344_BO1...
ECX.IMAGES-AMAZON.COM
September 22 at 3:03am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman TNET is the best thing to happen to FB.
September 22 at 3:04am · Like · 3
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John Boyer And the worst thing for my sleep schedule after having a kid.
September 22 at 3:05am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict TNET is, I think, a very singular anomaly in the book of faces. I feel like I'm a part of world wide web history in some small way.
September 22 at 3:11am · Like · 4
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John Boyer It's what twitter was supposed to be.
September 22 at 3:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel, "Theology, on the other hand, must always be evangelical". I'd disagree: theologia in se is just as much a contemplative activity as philosophy (in fact, it is such to a greater degree). It's just that the duty to teach is much more strongly tied to the study of Theology than to the study of philosophy.
September 22 at 3:17am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick What are you talking about? tNET makes getting up at any hour worth it
September 22 at 3:17am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Although, one might further argue that only members of the hierarchy have a strict duty to teach.)
September 22 at 3:19am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer There is a difference between evangelization and teaching, just to add a distinction.
September 22 at 3:20am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Not really, John Boyer
September 22 at 3:20am · Like
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Edward Langley The distinction has more to do with content than method.
September 22 at 3:20am · Like
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John Boyer Sure there is.
September 22 at 3:20am · Like
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John Boyer I would say audience.
September 22 at 3:20am · Like
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John Boyer Do you evangelize seminarians?
September 22 at 3:21am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Nowadays? I think they may need it
September 22 at 3:21am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yes.... These days... Yes...
September 22 at 3:22am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Ha! But in principle, they are different activities, no?
September 22 at 3:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think so
September 22 at 3:22am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see why you'd distinguish them.
September 22 at 3:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Really? Is all teaching meant to bring someone to convert, to hold the faith?
September 22 at 3:24am · Like · 1
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John Boyer One, I can teach things which I don't promote as true. Second, I can teach the background of something which someone already holds.
September 22 at 3:24am · Like
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Edward Langley I wouldn't narrow evangelization to that degree, Joshua
September 22 at 3:24am · Like
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John Boyer I'm teaching Spinoza right now. Sure as hell not evangelizing for Spinoza.
September 22 at 3:24am · Like
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John Boyer Or necessarily dismissing him. Just presenting him.
September 22 at 3:25am · Like
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Edward Langley John, I think presenting a position you think false as false is only teaching extenso nomine.
September 22 at 3:25am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Unless you want to say teaching TACers Thomas on the existence of God, for example, is evangelizing for Thomism.
September 22 at 3:25am · Like
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Edward Langley But, even if you distinguish them, the point stands: speculative theology is sought primarily as an object of contemplation and the communication of those truths is secondary: for one thing, the former belongs to the contemplative life while the latter to the active life.
September 22 at 3:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Are you evangelizing when you teach Euclid?
September 22 at 3:27am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, but as I said, the distinction has more to do with content than method or audience.
September 22 at 3:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz According to Jehoshaphat Escalante TAC might consider math as evangelization
September 22 at 3:27am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz or rather Euclidean math
September 22 at 3:28am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Boyer I would say evangelization is focused on persuasion, and that's essential to it.
September 22 at 3:28am · Like
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Joshua Kenz So would I
September 22 at 3:29am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And I think that is what almost everyone means by it.
September 22 at 3:29am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Yup
September 22 at 3:29am · Like
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Edward Langley That's only essential to it because the content is, to some degree, not teachable.
September 22 at 3:29am · Like
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Edward Langley In the strict sense, you cannot teach a non-demonstrable truth.
September 22 at 3:30am · Like
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John Boyer And is the end of teaching a habitus of knowledge of the way things are or of facts?
September 22 at 3:30am · Like
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Edward Langley (with the possible exception of the "manuductio" that points out a self-evident truth)
September 22 at 3:30am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yes, John.
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John Boyer I asked an either or question. Which one is the yes affirming?
September 22 at 3:31am · Like
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Edward Langley I meant the former.
September 22 at 3:31am · Like
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John Boyer Ok
September 22 at 3:31am · Like
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Edward Langley habit of knowledge.
September 22 at 3:31am · Like
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Edward Langley But that's incindental to my claim: if you want to qualify evangelization as something like "preparing for the gift of Faith" or something, it still holds a secondary place in the intellectual life.
September 22 at 3:34am · Like
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John Boyer I agree with that.
September 22 at 3:34am · Like
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Edward Langley (Note, I'm speaking formally here: I don't deny that evangelization can be more important in a Christian life, but . .. .)
September 22 at 3:35am · Like
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John Boyer I just had issue with your terminology.
September 22 at 3:35am · Like
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Edward Langley The question was actually a point of contention between the doctor communis and the doctor universalis: St. Albert held in his Summa (composed after Aquinas's) that sacred theology is a practical science.
September 22 at 3:37am · Like
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Edward Langley ... on to 25K
September 22 at 3:37am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "Ad hoc dicendum, quod in veritate sacra scrip-
tura practica est et stat in opere virtutis vel theolo-
gicae vel cardinalis, quia si etiam verum in re fruibili60
vel utili inquirit, hoc ipsum refert ad affectum, ut
scilicet in fide vel in eo quod succedit fidei, fruatur
per affectum vel intellectum affectivum summa veri-
tate, per spem vel spei succedens summo beatificante,
per caritatem summa bonitate. Historice autem65
proposita et praeceptive in lege et parabolice ad opus
refert meritorium. Hymnidice autem in psalmis de-
scripta ad affectum refert pietatis, et verum, quod
inquirit, de deo et operibus eius inquirit, non ut
verum simpliciter, sed ut summe beatificans, in quod70
referat totam pietatis intentionem in affectu et opere.
Sicut Aristoteles etiam in x ethicorum felicitatem
contemplativam determinat ut finem, ad quem refe-
rantur actus virtutum intellectualium et moralium
et heroicarum; propter quod et ipsa quae tractat de75
felicitate contemplativa, moralis sive practica est
sicut et ceterae partes scientiae moralis. Differt autem
ab aliis practicis, quas philosophi considerant; aliae
enim practicae stant ad opus perfectum perfectione
virtutis acquisitae, ista autem stat ad opus perfectum80
perfectione virtutis infusae per gratiam. "(Albert, ST, I, t.1, q.3, c.3)
September 22 at 3:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley.
"Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world." (Ps. 19:4)
There is, as it were, an inherent impetus to the Gospel that compels it to go out from itself. This compulsion is twofold: First, it is a command from Christ himself, "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt. 28:19). Secondly, there is a kind of power in the truth of the gospel that makes it heard and known (cognoscere) to the hearers, "For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb 4:12)
With regard to Philosophical truths, however, there is no such compulsion. There is none in the first way because any merely human doctrine can in nowise be commanded to be taught to "all nations," since in human doctrine there is always an admixture of error. As the Philosopher says, "It is more common for man to be in error." So also, with regard to the second way, philosophical doctrines do not compel the hearer as the Gospel does. For, human understanding, is slow and prone to errors as said above. Thus, even when men hear things that are true, they can deny it or put it off saying, "We want to hear you again on this subject."(Act 17:32) This is why, in response to the few conversions Paul saw in Athens when he then went to Corinth he said of his time there, "For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified."(1Cor. 2:2).
September 22 at 6:42am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Consequently, Edward, I hold that Theology is necessarily evangelical, whereas Philosophy need not be. In theology we attempt, and are compelled to reveal Christ. This does not mean that all theology should be popular. But I would argue that all theology should be attentive to the current age in a way that the philosopher need not be. To be a theologian means to teach the Word of God.
September 22 at 6:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nor should one hold that there is an identity between evangelization and teaching.
"Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit;
And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;
And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.
And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.
To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit;
To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.
But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will." (1Cor. 12:4-11)
All spiritual gifts belong to evangelization. This is why, for example, St. Teresa of Calcutta's sisters need not "teach" properly speaking, but they evangelize by caring for the poor and sick.
September 22 at 6:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia why, in tNET's eternal return of the same, is Theology overnight, whereas literature is in the day?
September 22 at 7:46am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Because you have an "Americo-Centric" worldview. It was day, here when were discussing theology.
September 22 at 7:47am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia you're in the minority Daniel.
September 22 at 7:48am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I was thinking it had something to do with drinking schedules....
September 22 at 7:49am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia and to be clear, I'd like to throw my non-professional opinion behind Kenz's assertion that JPII is unintelligible. I find the same goes for lots of the more modern magisterial documents. Thank God (literally) for tradition so that we have more clear teachings to refer the new obscure teachings
September 22 at 7:51am · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia for example, Lumen Gentium makes no sense without Mystici Corporis, which requires Unam Sanctam.
It seems like magisterial teachings get less clear and more garbled over time, kind of like me and a fifth.
September 22 at 8:01am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger ^this
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John Ruplinger That works with the Rerum Novarum series and what follows Providentissimus Deus. I think they all thought they had to be as lengthy as Leo XIII (a papal who can write the most comepetition). They could have just said "see Leo" or "^this" and saved a lot of confusion.
September 22 at 9:37am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I curious to see, historically, when "pastoral" became synonymous with "obscure"
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John Ruplinger nocturnal theologians seem to have passed out again.
September 22 at 8:51am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger definition of pastoral = #ultimategnosis
September 22 at 8:53am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, since we've lost the theologians again, I suppose we'll have to discuss Jane Austen.....again....
September 22 at 8:53am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger defining it is like bringing matter amd antimatter into contact.
September 22 at 8:54am · Like
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John Ruplinger i am done with discussion. All i have left is derision and slight regard. For JA . . .
September 22 at 8:56am · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . actually i really dont like many of the Austen haters nor the quality of the members of team Austen.
September 22 at 9:06am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [Maybe i will actually have to put away the movies and read one the books ]
September 22 at 9:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia more Nietzschean Austen quotes from my up and coming thesis: "The Will to Marriageability"
“To live with tremendous and proud composure; always beyond —. To have and not to have one's affects, one's pro and con, at will; to condescend to them, for a few hours; to seat oneself on them as on a horse, often as on an ass — for one must know how to make use of their stupidity as much as of their fire. To reserve one's three hundred foregrounds; also the dark glasses; for there are cases when nobody may look into our eyes, still less into our "grounds." And to choose for company that impish and cheerful vice, courtesy. And to remain master of one's four virtues: of courage, insight, sympathy, and solitude.”
September 22 at 9:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia [prod prod]
September 22 at 9:13am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger talk about obscure
September 22 at 9:16am · Like
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John Ruplinger Nietchze is quite the impish condescending ass himself. The question: did he learn it from Liz and Austen?
September 22 at 9:22am · Like
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John Ruplinger STOP, Beitia. You are baiting me.
September 22 at 9:23am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen:
“They were within twenty yards of each other, and so abrupt was his appearance, that it was impossible to avoid his sight. Their eyes instantly met, and the cheeks of each were overspread with the deepest blush. He absolutely started, and for a moment seemed immoveable from surprise; but shortly recovering himself, advanced towards the party, and spoke to Elizabeth, if not in terms of perfect composure, at least of perfect civility.”
Mr. Darcy is the ubermensch
September 22 at 9:35am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or from Sense and Sensibility:
“I will be calm. I will be mistress of myself.”
just like Nietzsche....
September 22 at 9:36am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Will To Marry
September 22 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger traditional definition of pastoral: to define and to condemn error (cf Pascendi and note like its first word maybe)
updated pastoral: fuzzy wuv and no never any meany uncharitable words AND definitions are sooooo 19th century.
September 22 at 9:43am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Jane Austen:
“Know your own happiness.”
how Nietzschean
September 22 at 9:46am · Like
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John Ruplinger Beitia is getting serious. That's three quotes in one day. I just wait for Kenz and Langley or pater for the smack down / diversion.
September 22 at 9:48am · Like · 2
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John Boyer Jane Austen: "Richard Wagner used to be a friend of mine but then he got lame."
How Nietzschian.
September 22 at 9:49am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia John Boyer: It's "The will to marriageability, Mr Darcy and the Ubermensch"
September 22 at 9:49am · Like · 3
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John Boyer There's a dissertation title.
September 22 at 9:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The final sentences of chapter 24 of The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler - probably how every chapter of a book should end.
"She hung up and I set out the chess board. I filled a pipe, paraded the chessmen and inspected them for French shaves and loose buttons, and played a championship tournament game between Gortchakoff and Meninkin, seventy-two moves to a draw, a prize specimen of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, a battle without armour, a war without blood, and as elaborate a waste of human intelligence as you could find anywhere outside an advertising agency."
September 22 at 9:50am · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger 6! When will it end! "Know your own happiness" is that for realz?
September 22 at 9:53am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It is. I just have to cherry pick some quotes, write about the society depicted in Austen is rotten, how most of the characters are small, and how Darcy comes along and wills past all of them.
September 22 at 9:50am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia shit, this comparative literature stuff is easy! Tenure track, here I come!
September 22 at 9:54am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Matthew J. Peterson that was perfect.
September 22 at 9:56am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger DON'T scroll up; its a bloody massacre. Bits of bunny splattered everywhere. O Horror Horror Horror! The queen of wabbits is dead.
September 22 at 10:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict When you stare into tNET...
September 22 at 10:00am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia tNET stares long into you. And when hunting an Austen quote, make sure you don't turn into an Austen quote
September 22 at 10:01am · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Jane-Austen-fan-submits...
Jane Austen fan submits her work anonymously to publishers... and receives...
DAILYMAIL.CO.UK
September 22 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger my thesis: "Darcy as post Christian pelagian Luther: covering over our sins with money."
September 22 at 10:07am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict ^^This piece is supposed to highlight the flaws in the publishing system. But could it highlight the flaws in Austen herself...hmmmm...?
September 22 at 10:08am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia How about: "Marriageable All-Too-Marriageable, Austen and Nietzsche's Four Virtues"
September 22 at 10:09am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11610489
Austen's style 'may not be hers'
The elegant writing style of novelist Jane Austen may have been the work of her editor, an academic at Oxford...
BBC.CO.UK
September 22 at 10:15am · Like
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Isak Benedict ^Jane Austen didn't even write Jane Austen, apparently.
September 22 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Chandler should be part of Senior Seminar.
September 22 at 10:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger I OBJECT in the most Austenian terms to Peterson's quote. Knowledge is for its own sake. I refuse to condescend to peddle myself at the institutions of higher prostitution. Have you learned nothing from N.? De K.? Austen? What should a TACer do?
September 22 at 10:23am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia "The Birth of Mr. Knightly, Austen the Dionysian"
September 22 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I await the right suitor. . . . . even if that means following Austen's fate. [Of course i assumed Peterson was criticizing tNET, a conversational novel, and not Austen]
September 22 at 10:27am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger This quality too of Austen. While selling off others into trifling marriages, she remained the unmoved mover. Also in ordering her kingdom of cottaintails (Beatrice Potter being one caretaker), she took a page out of Herodotus. Anyone remember how Croesus saved his warlike Lydians from annihilation at the hand of Cyrus?
September 22 at 11:02am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^this is why Austen gets so much deserved hate. She's fricken Circe i tell you sans squeals. . . . . and Beitia has the wand of Hermes.
September 22 at 10:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia #wandgnosis
September 22 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm kind of disappointed.... all this prodding and I can't get a Austen fan to bite.
September 22 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Pater Edmund is sleeping
September 22 at 10:59am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia BUT THE JOKES! how can anyone sleep through the humor?
#dumpsterfiregnosis
September 22 at 11:00am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger they are all slain. Or huddled trembling in their wabbit holes.
September 22 at 11:04am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And here I though you were sooooo tired of me being angry all the time.
September 22 at 11:04am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no! far from it. I like angry people
September 22 at 11:04am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I still haven't criticized Austen yet. Keep looking
September 22 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Humor = overhead. [And take a look at what Bond did to Madison on Peterson's page. Not to mention MY jokes that only Bond got. . . . . . crickets . . . Fed. 10 status]
September 22 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how are we ever going to have the facebook thread record if we all get along?
September 22 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger HA! Beitia! You established all the premises. Do you not see the conclusions? Or are you taken with the siren song of Zarathustra?
September 22 at 11:11am · Like
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John Ruplinger getalongism is what rabbits do. They are docile unless you attack their queen unless you slay her.
September 22 at 11:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger PATER EDMUND is hiding. Probably under an Austrian aristocratic petticoat of some distant aunt. He may pop in to say he has to go to vespers with a "virtuous" condescending flourish and 3 or 4 links.
September 22 at 11:21am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Well, Michael has "never criticized Austen" and John already admitted defeat, even though he's pretending that he wasn't vanquished, so I consider the Austen case closed.
September 22 at 11:21am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Not actually asleep. Our Holy Father St Bernard was against sleep: «What should I say of sleep, which in other men is a restoration after labor, a recreation of sense and mind? From that time till now he was awake more than is humanly possible. For no time did he regard as so wasted as the time of sleep. He held the comparison of sleep and death for very fitting; for as the sleeping seem dead to men, so the dead are sleeping in the eyes of God. Hence he could scarce keep his patience when he saw a religious in sleep who either snored too loud, or sprawled indecently; he thought such a one a carnal or worldly sleeper. The meagerness of his sleep was proportionate to the meagerness of his food; in neither did he indulge his body to satiety, in both he was satisfied if he had any at all. As for night-watches, he considered a watch moderate if he did not spend the whole night sleepless.» #Monkgnosis http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../jerome-k-jerome.../
September 22 at 11:22am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger [goad goad and gloat] AHH! and voila ^^^
September 22 at 11:27am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm quite willing to get angry about something else, though.
September 22 at 11:23am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'll be honest, tNET is a great outlet for the socially unacceptable side of my personality.
September 22 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger [pssst Beitia. qed. nullum argumentum contra verba sua]
September 22 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger NEW question: how did Croesus pacify his Lydians and could it work in modern times . . . . say 19th century England as a random culture and era?
September 22 at 11:34am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Is the poet a lawgiver of sorts? . . . meaning by "law" "nomos" to include custom?
September 22 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Samantha, be angry. They are now debating whether chocolate is per se evil on the pseudo-thomism forum.
September 22 at 11:49am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe This is the same place where the wife-beater hangs out, right? I would expect no less from them.
September 22 at 11:52am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "On whether the pseudo thomism forum should be flagged and removed from FB?" slander and an absolute disgrace. Next they will be asking whether it is ok to beat one's parents. sickos.
September 22 at 11:53am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Monkgnosis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTBiuv4Se68
I'm going Monk (Zoolander)
YOUTUBE.COM
September 22 at 11:54am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "prayer...prayer"
September 22 at 11:54am · Like
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John Ruplinger i just quoted the Bill Cosby chocolate cake song. They shouldnt even be talking about thomas. They need to be beaten as Aristotle says for asking impious or stupid questions.
September 22 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante alum friends, our gesamstkunstwerk is not far from the FB comment record
September 22 at 11:58am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger not that the questions are hooorrible imo, but really they should it call the ignoramus and morally clueless forum. Thomas would beat them with a fire brand.
September 22 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia well, since chocolate is a modern invention (after the 13th century) it is clearly immoral
September 22 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger yeah. Take that cig outta your mouth. You modernist.
September 22 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Jehoshaphat Escalante, I think it is more Kuhscheiße werk
September 22 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Are we really that close? I thought the record was something like 80,000
September 22 at 12:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger kuhscheibe yourself. This is a tac forum. German Verbotten!
September 22 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, Rome wasn't built in a day on the backs of the oppressed plebian class
September 22 at 12:10pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Okay, you may knock Austen, but I draw the line at knocking Beatrix Potter. If you don't see how genius her books are, you are a moron. And immoral.
September 22 at 12:11pm · Unlike · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think the record is 54,000 but the comments are mostly 'ram' 'ram' 'ram' (why? -- no idea)
September 22 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia More like 154000
September 22 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia at least tNET has substance
September 22 at 12:12pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell But does it have form?
September 22 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau And a higher word count
September 22 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger did i knock her? MAAAAYBE the rabbits.
September 22 at 12:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nothing has form. Form is a purely notional human construct
September 22 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hang on, insofar as tNET can be said to be man made, as opposed to eternally present dumpster fire, it has form
September 22 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Technically these are posts on a status update. The current record is 584,444 http://recordsetter.com/.../comment-thread.../12598...
Longest Comment Thread On A Facebook Status Update
DawarKazi set this world record with RecordSetter, a...
RECORDSETTER.COM
September 22 at 12:22pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau My teen said we could go for the record for the most intelligent conversation on Facebook. I told her not to push it.
September 22 at 12:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is death natural?
September 22 at 12:29pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And if Jesus and Mary have their bodies, where are they? (<< ^^ questions my 12th graders want to know)
September 22 at 12:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger in heaven.
September 22 at 12:36pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But 'where' is that?
September 22 at 12:37pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Grade 12s are harder than most crowds. And they flit all over the place with questions!
September 22 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger beyond the lunar sphere. . . . . . . . somewhere. Do you have to know everything? What is Faith?
September 22 at 12:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you know. Like the de fide definition. NOT the non de fide non definition.
September 22 at 12:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO ONE KNOWS. Nor never has. (Where heaven is that is.)
September 22 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger We know next to zilch on all the great mysteries (mysterion = sacramentum). What is faith? De fide? . . . . . . . Secundum Paulum?
September 22 at 12:48pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The question what is faith is a response to petulance regarding "where is heaven?"
September 22 at 12:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ". . . . will there be any Faith?"
September 22 at 12:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, that seems like an intemperate response to a perfectly reasonable question.
September 22 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "o ye of little faith."
September 22 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia faith of little children?
September 22 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward, you still need to face your reckoning.
September 22 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I like Beatrix Potter a lot. Mr. Jeremy Fisher is my very favorite!
But can we please stop saying things like "Everyone who doesn't like [insert author of which speaker is fond] is a complete [insert derogatory]." What possible good can that do?
September 22 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "erit enim tempus cum sanam doctrinam non sustinebit, . . . . . ad fabulas autem convertentur."
September 22 at 12:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel, I don't think your position is compatible with the dignity of theology.
September 22 at 12:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I don't actually have time to argue now because I'm making coffee then heading out the door.
September 22 at 12:58pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Samantha i am totally serious. And it is the best response.
September 22 at 12:58pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward. You are wrong.
September 22 at 12:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Isak, anyone who likes Beatrix Potter is a jerk
September 22 at 1:01pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Once again, I am proved a jerk.
September 22 at 1:02pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia it's a long line Daniel Lendman
September 22 at 1:02pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Is this about whether TOB is from hell again. Are the theologians just waking and in hangover?
September 22 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ToB is not from hell. But I think Michael said that anyone who likes it is a jerk.
September 22 at 1:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But I find it hard to distinguish between Beatrix Potter and JPIIs writings.
September 22 at 1:04pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
September 22 at 1:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Who said anything about a hgnsvero?
September 22 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So, which Pride and Prejudice TV adaptation is better Garvie-Rintoul '80, or Ehle-Firth '95?
September 22 at 1:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ehle-Firth. Hands down.
September 22 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Next question?
September 22 at 1:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I MADE ONE JOKE ABOUT POTTER (not HP) and i get hammered. People cant take / get a joke.
September 22 at 1:05pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Lest I be thought to be advocating some kind of literary relativism - I would definitely say that there are better and worse books and authors. However, as with fine wine, the taste for them needs to be developed. An individual literary "palate" needs to be cultivated, not mocked because it has not yet acquired entirely good taste.
September 22 at 1:06pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So here is some Darwinian evidence for prehistoric Jewish origins. Apparently they came from this guy:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../huge-king-nose-dinosaur...
Scientists Discover Dinosaur With Massive Schnoz
Scientists are calling it the Jimmy Durante of Dinosaurs....
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
September 22 at 1:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think what I just posted was racist.
September 22 at 1:07pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Potter > JP2. more clarity. And shorter.
September 22 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict John - I would be careful about stating that you got hammered right after throwing around hangover comments
September 22 at 1:07pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict The Jimmy Durante of dinosaurs - HAHAHAHA
September 22 at 1:08pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "That's not a banana, that's-a my nose! Hachachachacha"
September 22 at 1:09pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Home roasted coffee beans . . .
September 22 at 1:09pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia John said Harry Potter is superior to St. JPII
September 22 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, you may send them to me, care of the ITI.
September 22 at 1:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Head feel better, Edward?
September 22 at 1:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Irony: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/.../far-left-climate.../
Far Left Climate Geeks Leave Mountain of Trash For Cities to Deal With
On Sunday, tens of thousands of committed leftists held...
THEGATEWAYPUNDIT.COM
September 22 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I refuse to talk again about him who shall not be named.
September 22 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh shit...^
September 22 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Did you really just associate Saint John Paul the Great with Lord Voldemort?
September 22 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger lips are sealed. Refuse to spew back shit about shit that came from. . . . .
September 22 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger BEATRIX. Beitia knew it too. He is a troublemaker.
September 22 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Threadness forces all to speak eventually
September 22 at 1:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia troublemaker!?
September 22 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just stoking the dumpster fire
September 22 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger he who shall not be named = HP (antimetabole, your poetness)
September 22 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia chiasmus
September 22 at 1:22pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Isak, please don't worry -- I too am against name-calling, but I am trying to pick up the slack for the great black hole left by a certain person named after a bird of prey and a Franciscan theologian.
September 22 at 1:22pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger "how hp is the father of voldemort"
September 22 at 1:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm just here to pad my stats in case a certain individual comes back. I'm not relinquishing #1
September 22 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, I need to up my game too.
September 22 at 1:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I have refered to HP as he who shall not be named so long, I forget others dont see the likeness.
September 22 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is why I brought in tasteless racism.
September 22 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #statpaddinggnosis
September 22 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia He who shall not be named was the guitarist for the Dwarves.
September 22 at 1:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger So what was wrong with the Nazis anyway?
September 22 at 1:37pm · Like
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Michael Horton This thread is stronger with this included.
September 22 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia we'd managed to avoid Godwin's Law for so long....
September 22 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Did you hear the diary of Anne Frank was a fraud?
September 22 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe do not "think for yourself" about the Holocaust.
September 22 at 1:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's going to be part of my husband's blog post.
September 22 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Yeah. That is why Benedict XVI lifted Bishop Williamson's excommunication.
September 22 at 1:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^False.
September 22 at 1:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Repeat-- DO NOT "think for yourself" about the Holocaust.
September 22 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Fransisco Franco was just as bad
September 22 at 1:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Holy Moses, I just looked up Williamson.
September 22 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^...yeah.
September 22 at 1:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger doesnt count when you raise Nazis to pad posts by gaining reference to godwin.
September 22 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, he's not excommunicated, but he's definitely not an actual bishop of anything, right?
September 22 at 1:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^He has no canonical standing in the Church.
September 22 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman He is a bishop.
September 22 at 1:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because the evidence for their existence is so overwhelming that the only reason anyone would deny them is anti-semitism, or some other morally repugnant reason.
September 22 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But he is just kind of floating around.
September 22 at 1:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Foolishness?
September 22 at 1:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Paranoia?
September 22 at 1:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I thought guys like that were a fabrication of the left-wing media to make conservatives look bad.
September 22 at 1:51pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman He exists.
September 22 at 1:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's too bad.
September 22 at 1:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha is no Zionist.
September 22 at 1:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There are no really legitimate questions that can be raised regarding whether there was mass genocide under Nazi Germany.
September 22 at 1:53pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman There may be legitimate questions as to how it was carried out.
September 22 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell John, don't be one of "those people." I know it's cool to be a contrarian (I'm one myself), but unless you've got a 2nd career as a Shoah researcher that I don't know about, don't ask stupid questions.
September 22 at 1:53pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger "STUPID QUESTIONS" is my point. You zealot.
September 22 at 1:55pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Da kannst Du mich am Arsch lecken.
September 22 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Mozart wrote a song to those lyrics!
September 22 at 1:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "no legitimate questions" QED
September 22 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman With regard to historical facts, such claims are easier to be made.
September 22 at 1:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Its religious zealotry. And there are plenty of legit questions without losing your head like Williamson or Sungenis.
September 22 at 1:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There are no legitimate questions to be asked regarding whether George Washington was the first president of the USA and that he lead the colonial army.
September 22 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Not about whether 6,000,000 jews were killed.
September 22 at 2:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger not the questions i have in mind.
September 22 at 2:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is my only point.
September 22 at 2:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like I said above, one might question where, how, and details, but THAT^ happened.
September 22 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The existence of death camps also cannot be legitimately denied.
September 22 at 2:01pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I stated originally that Robinson's metaphor was a FORM of antimetabole, John. You can't read literature like philosophy.
September 22 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick They just discovered another one, didn't they? I saw that floating around Facebook a little while ago.
September 22 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger AND I raise it because we are going to repeat unless the hard questions happen.
September 22 at 2:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John. Seriously?
September 22 at 2:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I was kidding and Robinson wasnt using antimetabole. She was being a sneak. Its called sneakosis i believe.
September 22 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ABSOLUTELY certain, Samantha.
September 22 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Just because it isn't taught de fide, doesn't make deniers anything other than horrible ignorant little trolls.
September 22 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Peoples are stupid. It is already brewing in the Ukraine. Reeeeeaaally stupid.
September 22 at 2:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger DEFINE denier, you moron.
September 22 at 2:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have no idea what is going on here and I am running around today with little time - but I have plenty of friends and acquaintances from varied backgrounds reading this, I assume.
If people want to reveal their extreme ignorance or disturbing prejudices, that's their problem I suppose, and not mine. Maybe this tNET can help. But if idiocy or prejudice isn't countered over time I would shut things down at some point.
September 22 at 2:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF So, how does blocking work?
September 22 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What is the connection between you and I or you and TAC circles?
September 22 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Where have you ingested these poisons?
September 22 at 2:14pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger What is a denier. Definitions. I am certain that I am not. But as Matthew points out we cant ask for a definition here.
September 22 at 2:15pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ruplinger, are you also a 911 truther? Oh, I suppose you just have "doubts" as to who did it.
September 22 at 2:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I think this is just more trolling, guys.
September 22 at 2:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Either way it's tasteless.
September 22 at 2:16pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe He has to believe it at least a little bit to take things this far, I think.
September 22 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Look I made a joke to point play on Lendman's point.
September 22 at 2:17pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov
September 22 at 2:17pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe John, there are some "doubts" for which educated people have no excuse.
September 22 at 2:18pm · Like
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Nina Rachele I don't want to get into this at all, but I am wondering whether you've ever been to Auschwitz or one of the other big camps.
September 22 at 2:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Very little in history has been as well documented and attested as the Holocaust
September 22 at 2:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am very serious about the definition. It is precise. And a matter of law. That is all.
September 22 at 2:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A DENIER IS. and i have denied being such.
September 22 at 2:21pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Isak I think you are right
September 22 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and in Ukraine. YES. Jews are fleeing and under threat.
September 22 at 2:26pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I believe in the camps and whodunnit. That is not the gray area. But what is a denier which I am not.
September 22 at 2:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I stop reading to do some "work" and this is where we're at.
September 22 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ignore it. I don't want TNET shut down. I like TNET.
September 22 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele I would rather be insulted about Jane Austen, seriously.
September 22 at 2:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe As usual, I can't really tell what John is saying, but it seems to be horrible. And yeah, do you even go here?
September 22 at 2:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Okay, can we calm down a little bit.
September 22 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This kind of nonsense is exactly where the worst online conversations go. TNET is better than that, so cut it out.
September 22 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I've always had trouble with German thinkers -- Benedict XVI is the exception to my rule
September 22 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Anyways. My initial posts were just to stir contraversy. There are very very important questions about the holocaust. Not asking causes backlash like neonazis and offbalance reactions like Sungenis.
September 22 at 2:30pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Samantha -- has John blocked you? Or you can read him but he is obtuse?
September 22 at 2:30pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm sooo lost...
September 22 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, no, he's just confusing.
September 22 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Well we don't use abortion and the Nazis to stir the pot. Ok? (A little tNET etiquette)
September 22 at 2:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But John, neo-Nazis are not caused by laws against holocaust denial. They are the reason Germany has laws against holocaust denial.
September 22 at 2:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm torn between my desire not to encourage John, and my desire not to let terrible false statements go uncontroverted...
September 22 at 2:33pm · Unlike · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau How did you guys get from Beatrix Potter to Hitler in 20 mins or less?
September 22 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Let it go Samantha
September 22 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Just let it go
September 22 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe but... but...
September 22 at 2:34pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Discuss spanking instead: Valid parenting tool or evil? (Matt Walsh drives me nuts -- disclaimer) http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/09/18/spanking/
Spanking is a disciplinary measure, not child abuse. Get a grip, people. - The Matt...
THEMATTWALSHBLOG.COM
September 22 at 2:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I TOLD you guys about him. Didn't i tell you? But noooo, it has to come to this before anyone believes me.
September 22 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think he is just confused.
September 22 at 2:35pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick No let's not get into the spanking thing, I've been on enough mommy blogs to learn to just keep my mouth shut on that one. (I've also been told I should go to prison for pinching a 1 year olds hand to get her to stop touching things she shouldn't)
September 22 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I prefer Hitler to Matt Walsh
September 22 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That is a tough one.
September 22 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'll bite. I wouldn't call spanking child abuse, but I think it's potentially damaging, and unnecessary.
September 22 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And I say this as someone who was spanked a *lot*
September 22 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't read that Matt Walsh article, though, and I'm not going to, because I'm still mad at him about Noah.
September 22 at 2:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matt Walsh is a boob.
September 22 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Is he anyone I should care about? (Separate from whether he is good or bad.)
September 22 at 2:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no
September 22 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he is the worst sort of click bait for conservative leaning Catholics
September 22 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill "Should care about" ??that's moving the relationship along.
September 22 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Huh?
September 22 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Can we get back to a real subject?
September 22 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill He is a staffer for buzz feed
September 22 at 2:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What did the theologians talk about last night after I went to bed? Anything good?
September 22 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I posted pictures.
September 22 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't remember... I thought it was interesting at the time... But I was half asleep and trying to feed a baby so who knows..
September 22 at 3:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha--FWIW belief or disbelief in any private revelation should not deter anyone from Catholicism, imo. E.g., I also think the brown scapular is commonly misunderstood (at best), a lot of the three days of darkness stuff seems nutty as all get out, etc.
September 22 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Lots of stuff on just how great JPII's writings were or weren't. (Re the theology talk last night.)
September 22 at 3:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I know. That stuff just triggers all my "nope" instincts.
September 22 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ah, right. I started ToB one time... That is all I have to contribute to that conversation.
September 22 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe uggggh..... I hate writing newsletters for parents.... someone do mine for me
September 22 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe should I tell them about the illicit Lingua Latina I'm sneaking into the curriculum?
September 22 at 3:12pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Of yeah there was about to be a good discussion of superstition vs prayer; example: praying the rosary is good, carrying a Rosary as a "talisman" (having but not using) is superstitious. (Forgive my edits, I am discovering that iOS 8 has serious autocorrect issues)
September 22 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I wouldn't tell them. My mom made the mistake of listing the New St Joseph's Baltimore catechism as one of her resources for the first communion class and she wasn't asked back (but was told they would 'Review' the book.)
September 22 at 3:17pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I have a better definition: superstition is all that papist stuff that isn't in the Bible.
September 22 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahaha
September 22 at 3:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The Evangelical "rapture" (rupture?) is super scriptural too... right?
September 22 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Come on. You think I'm into that stuff?
September 22 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Whose Bible?
September 22 at 3:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe The cool thing about being an evangelical, is you can just reject the craziness.
September 22 at 3:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't have to tie myself up in knots defending it.
September 22 at 3:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Truthfully, I don't think any profound theological differences arise from the canonical vs. apocryphal Bibles.
September 22 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Is John trying to have a private fb conversation with any of you about holocaust denial?
September 22 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or am I the only lucky one.
September 22 at 3:23pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia two things: you're the lucky one
and
isn't rejecting the craziness rejecting evangelicals?
September 22 at 3:24pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF It is unclear to me that Catholics have to accept much "craziness" either. As Kenz laid out earlier, the dogmatic disagreements between Catholics and what I believe Escalante called "magisterial reformers" (i.e. Luther and Calvin) are overblown. There are disagreements, but fewer than one might think.
W/r/t the "Catholic pious devotionals" those are optional. I suppose it depends on whether one thinks things like the Eucharist and prayer to the Saints constitute "craziness."
September 22 at 3:25pm · Like
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Joel HF He's called me a "domesticated rabbit" and a "moron" so I'm not holding my breath.
September 22 at 3:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I personally like his comments, for the most part, but I've got pretty thick e-skin
September 22 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think the evangelical movement is good at its core.
September 22 at 3:27pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Expand
September 22 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I have soft, sexy e-skin. I rub my e-skin daily with coconut e-oil.
September 22 at 3:28pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe and Joel, I think you're right about the magisterial reformers. And I'm an Anglican, so the Eucharist isn't the problem.
September 22 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I too dabbled in Anglicanism. Not in ‘Nam of course.
September 22 at 3:29pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF #Biglebowskignosis
September 22 at 3:29pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Isak, my e-skin is e-calloused and e-hardened from years of e-trolling.
September 22 at 3:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante The disagreements are actually huge; Joshua was only discussing a narrow set of topics
September 22 at 3:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict #egnosis
September 22 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you're not wrong, Joel, you're just an
September 22 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante--what do you see the chief doctrinal disagreements being?
September 22 at 3:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Ecclesiology, justification/sanctification, sacrament; all deep rifts
September 22 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Justin Tse I think Escalante is going to go all ontological on us if we push him.
September 22 at 3:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I've been re-reading Pride and Prejudice so as to try to mend the hole in my soul. Just finished Chapter 12 and GOD WHAT FUSSY, MINCING DRIVEL!! CALL YOU THIS PROSE?
September 22 at 3:35pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Oh and sola scriptura of course
September 22 at 3:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Much like Royal Tenenbaum, I've always been considered that, but I prefer SOB.
September 22 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, sola scriptura leads to some pretty massive differences.
September 22 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was sort of onboard with Scripture + Tradition for a while, when thinking of Tradition as the way the Church has interpreted Scripture, but in practice Tradition seem to mean that the Church can define new doctrine and claim it was always part of "Tradition" as long as someone somewhere thought it.
September 22 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia that seems an oversimplification....
September 22 at 3:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia every Christian has to believe in a stronger or weaker form of tradition. The disagreement is how much to admit or not
September 22 at 3:41pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm certainly not going to get into any apologetics here with my charming alumni friends, I only wished to say that there are immense and important differences
September 22 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's right. I believe in the weaker form. The much weaker form.
September 22 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course, otherwise you'd be Catholic...or Orthodox.
And Jehoshaphat, I appreciate that.
September 22 at 3:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat--that's fair. I tend to think the justification/sanctification divide while real is not as great as some make it to be. I'm also not an expert on "what Protestants believe." Round my neck of the woods, growing up, it was either (a) any damn thing they could wring out of the Bible themselves or (b) not much of anything at all. Of course, if one looked at the (unofficial) beliefs of actual Catholics, one could say the same things but they didn't need to find it in the Bible.
September 22 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^The above is not, and is not intended to be an insult to my thoughtful Protestant friends here.
September 22 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Haha, all two of us.
September 22 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Caleb answered the one technical question. Thanks for the recommendation Caleb! So that's three at the very least.
September 22 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, I'm off to the dentist. solve all the divides between Protestants and Catholics while I'm gone.
September 22 at 3:51pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante The justification divide is definitely huge, recent exercises in waffling notwithstanding.
And I should note, since you quote my use of "magisterial reformers", that this is a term current among historians of early modernity, and it does not mean, as most (especially Catholics) understandably take it to mean, that Protestants regard Luther or Calvin as equivalent to the Papal magisterium. It rather comes from the word "magistrate", and indicates those mainline, orthodox Protestants (as opposed to Radical Reformation) who looked to the civil magistrate, having the cura religionis, as the main implementer of reform.
September 22 at 3:53pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and by "recent exercises in waffling" I mean the "Joint Declaration", which serious Catholics ought to find as appalling as I do
September 22 at 3:54pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe hmm, you don't like it? interesting.
September 22 at 3:54pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It's an exercise in dishonest glossover
September 22 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I haven't read it since high school-- maybe it wasn't as great as I thought at the time.
September 22 at 3:55pm · Like
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Joel HF I understood the term to mean that, and was using it to differentiate those Protestants from some of the ones I was acquainted with as a child—you know, crazy Southern revival types.
September 22 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or, shudder, ana-baptists
September 22 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Justin Tse So Escalante is saying that Protestantism needs to be understood as a set of political theologies.
September 22 at 3:59pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Christianity is a political theology
September 22 at 4:00pm · Like
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Justin Tse True. Or, duh.
September 22 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante rex, regnum, fides, redemptio, glorificatio, civitas Dei
September 22 at 4:01pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat--w/ one or 2 exceptions, the ecumensim of the Catholic church for the last 50 years has been deplorable.
September 22 at 4:16pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF (IMO at least.)
September 22 at 4:16pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The Joint Declaration was terrible....even Avery Cardinal Dulles heldit was an exercise in sophistry...I use X to mean Y, and you use X to mean Z, and we pretend we agree!
September 22 at 4:18pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict When TNET reaches 21,000 comments, it should be legally permitted to purchase and consume booze.
September 22 at 4:21pm · Like · 11
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^^absolutely, Joshua
September 22 at 4:21pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante re the JD, it seems to me that the committee's basic idea was "hey we were all very precise in the 16th and 17th centuries and that didn't solve anything so let's just never use terms clearly again but chant 'unity' to Taize tunes and hug and see what happens"
September 22 at 4:23pm · Unlike · 6
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Samantha Cohoe I remember my mom thought the JD was a sign that the churches were all going to unite under the anti-Christ and Jesus would soon come back and save the few elect who remained apart.
September 22 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Fortunately, *that* didn't happen.
September 22 at 4:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante As the churches are today, they'd make a pretty sorry army for the Antichrist
September 22 at 4:29pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I can't imagine the army of Antichrist with pastel felt banners
September 22 at 4:30pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Elmer's glue=chemical warfare
September 22 at 4:33pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill http://news.yahoo.com/polygamist-ninja-women-sneak-utah... See... that's why you can't support poliganinjas.
Polygamist Ninja Women Sneak Into Utah Home To Abduct 15-Year-Old Girl, Fail...
NEWS.YAHOO.COM
September 22 at 4:33pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson They will use the edge of brightly colored construction paper to cut the other side into kindness.
September 22 at 4:34pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They will smother the opposition in wads of cotton.
September 22 at 4:34pm · Like
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell So what's being discussed today?
September 22 at 4:35pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Polyganinjas.
September 22 at 4:37pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know how to put clip art on my newsletter. Do I have to?
September 22 at 4:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew Reiser Samantha Cohoe Clip art is inherently evil. Sort of like Comic Sans.
September 22 at 4:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah. I'll just have a little box on my newsletter with text inside, that say "this is where I would have put clip art if it weren't inherently evil." Parents will love it.
September 22 at 5:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Here's something fun!
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-generic-college-paper
A Generic College Paper.
Since the beginning of time, bullshit, flowery overgeneralization with at least one thesaurus’d...
MCSWEENEYS.NET
September 22 at 5:16pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ^that's going to be like my Nietzsche/Austen crossover paper! You spoiled it!
September 22 at 6:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia So I come back from the dentist to find that y'all haven't solved all the problems between Catholics and their "separated brethren"....
as an aside, this is twaddle:
18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification. Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts. [cf. Sources for section 3].
September 22 at 6:13pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't be sore, Michael
September 22 at 6:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict We were waiting for you to get here to really sink our teeth into the subject
September 22 at 6:15pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You know the drill
September 22 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But be nice - remember we've got fillings too
September 22 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Everybody brace yourselves
September 22 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You're about to have a brush with tNET destiny
September 22 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia is this pun til you puke hour? Did I miss that memo?
September 22 at 6:41pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict No, actually that takes place starting at tooth-hurtie.
September 22 at 6:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *RIM SHOT*
September 22 at 6:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you're gumming up the discussion
September 22 at 6:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Bite me
September 22 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia one more pun and we're removing your tNET plaque.
September 22 at 6:47pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Won't chew please lighten up?
September 22 at 6:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tim Cantu the wordplay has begun
September 22 at 6:49pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Can you tell it's Monday?
September 22 at 6:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Isak's just being tongue in cheek
September 22 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia paying lip service
September 22 at 6:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia just bridging the gap until something else happens
September 22 at 6:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's the tooth, you just can't handle it
September 22 at 6:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict We've been trying to extract meaning all along
September 22 at 7:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4DOJhjwPME
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau "Denn es gehet dem Menschen wie dem Vieh" Brahms
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau sings "Denn es gehet dem...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 22 at 7:11pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Jeff Neill Is George rr Martin's book series.... Is it virtuous?
September 22 at 8:54pm · Like
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Innocent Smith The real question is, is it art?
September 22 at 9:38pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Has the thread died?
September 22 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, it's hibernating.
September 22 at 10:04pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Hmmm, I think it's dead. All that Hitler stuff made everyone just give up on it
September 22 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I actually think it was the puns. The unphilosophical generally lack appreciation for the most philosophical form of humor.
September 22 at 10:07pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia nope it's the Bears game (halftime now, I'm makin' nachos)
September 22 at 10:13pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oooo... nachos... Ok well as long as it picks up by the time I'm up for the 2 am feeding session.
September 22 at 10:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict If the pun is the lowest form of humor, it is therefore the foundation of all wit.
September 22 at 10:40pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So would the situation with ISIS be an acceptable time for a Crusade? (Given that it would even be a possibility which I don't know if it could be given training etc)
September 22 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oliver Wendell Holmes once said “People who make puns are like wanton boys that put coppers on the railroad tracks. They amuse themselves and other children, but their little trick may upset a freight train of conversation for the sake of a battered witticism.”
Mr. Holmes only ever came to such a simile because he never made a good pun in his life. Sometimes, when the passengers are being lulled to sleep by the drone of endless travel, that big, dull freight train of conversation should be derailed. A truly good pun must be granted admission to the rarer excellencies of conversation, if conversation is to be lively and interesting. Punning is a talent despised only by those who have it not.
September 22 at 10:50pm · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict A pun is merely two strings of thought twisted into one verbal knot. The punster is, essentially, a “corrupter of words,” like Feste.
September 22 at 10:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley You have to distinguish the puns.
A pun is an ambiguous usage of an equivocal word for humorous effect. If the two meanings just happen to come together (as with the trite example, "bat"), the pun is a relatively low form of humor. If the two meanings are logically related (As for example Oscar Wilde's "'I can make a pun on any subject.' 'Can you make a pun upon the Queen?' 'The Queen, my dear sir, is not a subject.'") the pun has a much loftier place within the realm of humor.
September 22 at 10:55pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe GRR Martin's books are nihilistic. I don't care how many times he denies it.
September 22 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Any character in game of thrones who looks around at the world and concludes that the forces of good have a shot at winning is an idiot, and probably will die horribly on the next page.
September 22 at 11:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff, have you read them? If so, I bet you and I are the only ones on tNET who have.
September 22 at 11:04pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick This is failing at satisfying my bedtime reading tonight, I guess I'll have to go back to Anna Karenina
September 22 at 11:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's not 2AM yet, Lauren.
September 22 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Are you putting baby Phil on her back?
September 22 at 11:15pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Most of the time (like all but two nights) (and please don't anyone come after me with an axe for this)
September 22 at 11:20pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick And her name is not Phil. In fact Alex would be mad if he knew I responded to you when you called her that
September 22 at 11:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just sharpening it now.
September 22 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick In my defense it was recommended by a Nurse for dealing with her tummy issues
September 22 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yup, Samantha, I totally dig the books. It is the best of Greek tragedy outside of Russian authors.
Every character has virtues and vices; the virtues make them successful in their endeavors and their vices are their undoing. It is nihilistic as far as nothing being sacred, but the unspoken/unseen main characters have not been introduced yet. The book series is a chess game with two people (gods) playing the game.... One of which doesn't even have a name yet.
The best part being the focus on politics and minimizing the fantasy aspects.
September 22 at 11:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Even the tv shows have been well done. (If the uncensored versions are too much for your sensibilities, you can find censored versions out there).
September 22 at 11:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The sad part is it is one of those books where you can't talk about it with the uninitiated. (Lacking #songoficeandfiregnosis)
September 22 at 11:48pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Didn't he say he considers himself the anti-Tolkien and he uses the R.R. on purpose for this reason?
September 23 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict How many do you have to have read to be initiated? I read the first one and thought it was terrible.
September 23 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But back to the praise of the pun! Mr. Holmes is somewhat accurate in stating that those who make puns amuse themselves. Part of the delight in a good, well timed pun lies in the loud groans from everyone else within hearing. There is a great deal of satisfaction to be found in it. The specific wordplay of a pun seems to be ordered towards a certain kind of humor – not the kind of humor for making others chuckle or laugh, for a pun is not a joke told for the entertainment of others – no, a pun is made for the amusement of the man who is clever enough to capture two thoughts in one net.
September 23 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict A pun is, unashamedly, ordered towards the pleasure that is to be found in the exercising of a quick wit.
September 23 at 12:58am · Like
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Isak Benedict And there is nothing to be found in this exercise of wit which needs condemning. To "get" a pun, and groan at it, requires only a rational being. But to make a pun…ah, that needs a gentleman’s intellect, beyond the mere capacity of comprehension, able to see humorous relations and express them quickly! A pun demands a well-read, verbally competent, nimble and ready mind (as well as the admittedly unavoidable lack of shame in cracking a witticism meant only for personal enjoyment).
September 23 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But the pun is not entirely selfish - put two punsters together, give them a topic, and they will find each other to be very funny gentlemen indeed. They will exercise their wits in tandem and share something in which everyone else is either unable, or able but unwilling, to partake: the activity of wordmongering, and the great fun that is to be found in the form of humor not limited by the laws placed on popular comedy.
September 23 at 1:02am · Like
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Isak Benedict In a world of egalitarian humor, the spontaneous pun is the lone misfiring atom of elitism.
September 23 at 1:02am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The pun is proud, the pun is defiant, the pun has a twinkle in its eye, and the pun elicits groans because of the reluctance of witless men like Mr. Holmes to pay it tribute in laughter.
And yet few will pass up the opportunity to crack a good pun, however rarely it rises before them – and thus, it may be that the groans emitted by all those who hear a magnificent play on words are the result of deep-down, subconscious admiration and jealousy: “God, why didn’t I think of that?”
September 23 at 1:05am · Like
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Isak Benedict #pungnosis
September 23 at 1:06am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell So did you hear the one about the fire at the circus?
September 23 at 1:08am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It was IN TENTS!
September 23 at 1:09am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Lauren - as for the conversation failing your bedtime reading, may I just say - ask not what TNET can do for you, but what you can do for TNET.
That a better example of antimetabole for you, John?
September 23 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Daniel - I used to be addicted to soap.
September 23 at 1:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict But now I'm clean.
September 23 at 1:10am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict “Funny how I got to be educated by degrees.” ~Robert Frost, upon accepting his honorary doctorate.
September 23 at 1:11am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Where does the one-legged waitress work?
September 23 at 1:14am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell IHOP
September 23 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And what's her name?
September 23 at 1:14am · Like
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Isak Benedict Eileen.
September 23 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day ...
September 23 at 1:20am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ... but I couldn't find any!
September 23 at 1:20am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell What's great about living in Switzerland?
September 23 at 1:22am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ... well, the flag is a big plus ...
September 23 at 1:22am · Unlike · 3
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John FitzGerald Shut up, both of you.
September 23 at 1:28am · Like
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Pater Edmund "As one gets older, one loses one's mind by degrees." —my grandmother to my father on the occasion of his getting his second doctorate
September 23 at 1:29am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, your last objection was hardly substantial.
September 23 at 1:34am · Like
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John FitzGerald So, Isak: thought old RR's work was terrible, did you? Please tell me why. I haven't read them, nor Annette FitzGerald, but we both think that there is much good to the series, aside from the gratuitous sex and violence and all of the Identity Politics they mask. Do you care for the show? I'd like to know what you think of the written form, Martin's own work.
September 23 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I found his tone quite stark
September 23 at 1:38am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau I was hoping you would be talking theology again.
September 23 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ask not what TNET can do for you, Jody...
September 23 at 1:39am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I was wondering what you all thought of St Therese of Lisieux being named a Doctor of the Church.
September 23 at 1:39am · Like
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John FitzGerald No, now you're using the pun to hide rather than make things interesting. C'mon. .
September 23 at 1:40am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Since many of you poo-pooed JPII being one. I was wondering about your criterion.
September 23 at 1:40am · Like
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Isak Benedict Lazy, bloated storytelling full of clunky, awkward prose from a clearly sadistic writer obsessed with betrayal. There is nothing noble about the first book.
I did also see the first season of the show, and while it was pretty to look at, I found the underlying nihilism overcame the spectacle. Also boobs. Which are great, but I'm not married to any of the women to whom belong the ubiquitous mammaries on that show.
September 23 at 1:45am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Reading one of seven and you don't get satisfaction of a complete story? How many other books do you read the first chapter of and have a sense of completion? As for sadistic boobs, I guess that you think the same of Aristophanes.
September 23 at 1:51am · Like
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John FitzGerald I've considered whether the work was nihilist or perhaps something else. Wanted to know what you thought. Sadistic? Meaning Martin enjoys inflicting the pain on his readers at the death of good men like Stark? Martin writes the story the way he does because he's pulling our hearts out and he gets off on it?
September 23 at 1:52am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No, clearly not. He's writing a tale of virtue and vice. From virtue is life, but vice kills.
September 23 at 1:53am · Like
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Isak Benedict Jeff, read my comment again, you consummate ass. Who said anything about a sense of completion?
No idea why you mention Aristophanes there - he's a comic genius, and about as far away from Martin as apples from wheelbarrows.
September 23 at 1:53am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Martin is a dirty old man who doesn't know how to write anything beautiful.
September 23 at 1:53am · Like
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Jeff Neill Why do you say that?
September 23 at 1:54am · Like
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Jeff Neill I love you too isak. (This is not sarcastic, I'm quite genuine)
September 23 at 1:56am · Edited · Like
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John FitzGerald I didn't know what to make of the show because it is the work of so many in addition to Martin. Knew I'd have to read him before judging the stories. That's why I wanted Isak's opinion on the words on the page. What of the beauty that is there, in some other characters, context, etc?
September 23 at 1:57am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Does he not know beauty or does he not write of the simple/true/good.
September 23 at 1:57am · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm not saying it's wrong to write a sex scene - but there's definitely a wrong WAY to write a sex scene, and that's with his clumsy half-clinical descriptions.
Can you show me anything beautiful in the first book? I've already made clear that's all I've read of the series. It seems quite realistic to assume the other entries are similar in form and style. Also, full-length books that get longer and longer are not the same thing as chapters.
September 23 at 1:59am · Like
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Jeff Neill It seems to be more of the inferno. A slow walk through each level seeing the lives and consequences of actions.
September 23 at 1:59am · Like
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Isak Benedict Did you really just compare Game of Thrones to Dante's Inferno? I'm telling Tom Sundaram on you!
September 23 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill So you don't like the book/chapter analogy, let's not get caught in that..... Analogies aren't real anyway.
September 23 at 2:00am · Like
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Jeff Neill Who is Tom?
September 23 at 2:01am · Like
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Jeff Neill He may agree with me.
September 23 at 2:01am · Like
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Isak Benedict Be it so, if so.
September 23 at 2:01am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ok, so the reader is part of the book being lead by the author through people's lives, seeing the consequences of actions... There fore inferno
September 23 at 2:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill Nobody loves in hell, they all die.
September 23 at 2:03am · Like
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Isak Benedict I think my main criticism is that his sentences are basic, his prose fan-fiction-like.
September 23 at 2:03am · Like
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Jeff Neill Many were well intentioned.
September 23 at 2:03am · Like
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Jeff Neill Some better than others.
September 23 at 2:03am · Like
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Isak Benedict But the Inferno is followed by Purgatorio and Paradiso. It isn't the whole story.
September 23 at 2:04am · Like
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Isak Benedict I haven't read the rest of the books that are out, but I'm aware of their contents.
September 23 at 2:04am · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes
September 23 at 2:04am · Like
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Jeff Neill Neither is the first book
September 23 at 2:04am · Like
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Isak Benedict It doesn't get any better in Martin's world.
September 23 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ^Comment anticipated and addressed.
September 23 at 2:05am · Like
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John FitzGerald Isak: how would you describe Martin's writing of the sex scenes? Bloodless? You said clinical. He doesn't understand love?
September 23 at 2:05am · Like
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Jeff Neill History has a way of building upon itself, is now better than before, what can we learn from a long tale of tragic loss?
September 23 at 2:06am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill What are the consequences of the consequences of the consequences? (Can you for shadow three orders out? Of you can what can you do to change it?). I think his work does more teaching and is more reachable to a broader audience than if it were written in "fancier" prose.
September 23 at 2:09am · Like
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Isak Benedict I could find you some quotes Fitz
September 23 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald What of Martin's language bent? I thought he basically wanted to be the next Tolkien. That he was doing philology in a similar way.
That's also what got Annette and me talking. The incest and sick twisted stuff is more akin to the French influenced Arthurian Legends, ad ND therefore decidedly anti Tolkien, because of the latter's hatred of the French influence on old Icelandic.
September 23 at 2:09am · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald Don't go to any trouble, just say more about how Martin misses the mark when writing a sex scene.
September 23 at 2:11am · Like
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Isak Benedict HAHAHAHA this is priceless. Click with discretion. Awkward descriptions of genitals contained here.
http://www.dorkly.com/.../7-things-from-the-game-of...
7 Things From The Game of Thrones Books Even More Haunting Than The Red...
DORKLY.COM
September 23 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The sex scenes are completely extraneous, for one thing. With the actual writing, he's literally just going through the motions. Someone is drunk with head-spinning lust for someone else, an unintentionally hilarious word for male anatomy gets employed, then naughty body parts get caressed or fondled and then it's the next chapter. Might as well be Harlequin romance novels.
September 23 at 2:15am · Like
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Isak Benedict When I read about Don Quixote reading so many crappy adventure stories that his brain dries up, I think of A Song of Ice and Fire.
September 23 at 2:16am · Unlike · 4
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Jeff Neill I had to look up the "evil eye" earlier today since I wasn't aware of what it was or its history.
September 23 at 2:16am · Like
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John FitzGerald Yeah, I see what you mean. Clunk, clunk, clunk. Can the man write, at all, isak?
September 23 at 2:18am · Like
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Isak Benedict Well, I certainly can't criticize him on grounds of quantity...
September 23 at 2:20am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But maybe you should ask someone who has made it through more than just the first book. (chapter?)
September 23 at 2:20am · Like
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Jeff Neill The point of bringing this up (see what I did there, it is a pun; you like puns) is the world different outside of a Christian society, however there is still morality. Right and wrong still exists and just punishments are dealt.
September 23 at 2:22am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I can certainly agree with that.
September 23 at 2:22am · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm afraid the pun went over my head.
September 23 at 2:23am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I can say that beyond the first book/chapter, that bad people reform their lives and good people falter.
September 23 at 2:23am · Like
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Jeff Neill It was about sex and the evil eye.
September 23 at 2:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Ooh just like life.
September 23 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ha. Erection joke. How thick of me not to see it right away.
September 23 at 2:24am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill The evil eye is a pendant of a phallus worn by the Romans as a talisman...
(I learned that today really creepy)
September 23 at 2:25am · Like
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Jeff Neill Actually, the best aspect of the series is the ongoing discussion of virtue, and which virtues are held at what standard and whether man can reform their life.
September 23 at 2:27am · Like
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Isak Benedict Perhaps we should give the TNET floor to the discussion of higher things at this point.
September 23 at 2:27am · Like
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John FitzGerald Pun...overload...
September 23 at 2:28am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Well, perhaps I shall give the second book a try some time. I can't promise anything.
September 23 at 2:28am · Like
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Jeff Neill Coming of age is obviously an underlining theme, but at a further theme is theology within cultures of conflicting beliefs and what does it mean to believe.
September 23 at 2:29am · Like
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Jeff Neill You have bad priests that go through the motions and discover through miracles that God exists and that you need to reform your life.
September 23 at 2:30am · Like
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Isak Benedict Bedtime an hour and a half ago for me. Think TNET will tuck me in if I ask nicely?
September 23 at 2:30am · Like
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Jeff Neill Similar you have people owing a false religion and losing their faith in droves
September 23 at 2:31am · Like
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Jeff Neill Goodnight. (Forgive my autocorrect, looking back many words were "fixed" to unintelligible garble.)
September 23 at 2:32am · Like
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Jeff Neill Well John, I'm not sure what/how far you read, but if you haven't, it is worth it. As for the naughty bits, they can be glossed over, like an HBO tv show, they get thrown I there. To attract a wider audience that may not spend the time to read Jane Austen or Tolstoy.
September 23 at 2:34am · Like
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John FitzGerald Followed along to the end.... can't stop.... it was worth it. Thanks for sharing your views.
September 23 at 2:57am · Like
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Jeff Neill I have more views, but I don't share them since it gives the plot away, and presupposes the final purpose of the book.
I admit that a "clean" version would be desirable, but it is harder to find an edited book than a edited tv show.
September 23 at 3:33am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, I read the first three books. I thought when I was younger that the style was best adapted to a miniseries, then became really unsurprised to find out that Martin wrote for TV series. I tried to go back and re-read the first one, but meh. there's so much better out there to read.
September 23 at 6:17am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I've read them all, and while I enjoyed them for what they were, the only defense I will give of them is that they are loads better than that crap Rowling writes. The sex scenes are embarrassing and are a manifestation of a larger problem—he really is a poor stylist generally speaking. (Some of the middle books are written with a much better style, less clunky and awkward, than the first one. I believe the first one was the first book he had written in a long time.) His strength is plotting and world-creation. But this is genre writing, and what one wants out of the “fantasy genre” are an interesting three dimensional world (which he provides) and a good plot (which he mostly provides).
September 23 at 6:57am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia don't you think, stylistically, jumping from the POV of one character to another really just means he's writing a TV miniseries?
September 23 at 7:20am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yeah, a lot of modern novels suffer from that: multiple POV, quick chapters that end in "cliff-hangers", etc. GoTs definitely has a bit of that going on. And in the final analysis I wouldn't really defend them to someone who disliked them.
September 23 at 7:30am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well, I liked them enough to read the first three...
September 23 at 7:36am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've read them all. I have a lot of feelings about them, which I'll be back later to share. But what's wrong with multiple pov's? I think they can work if they're done right
September 23 at 8:24am · Like
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Ryan Burke Funny, Joel HF, I found Rowling much more enjoyable than Martin. Rowling is more imaginative; GoT is basically cobbled together from episodes in Western European history with the names changed. The parts I found most enjoyable are the parts that follow an historical event beat for best
September 23 at 8:42am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm kind of a Martin hater, but I don't think the other haters are giving the man his due. It *is* genre writing, but it's really good genre writing. There is a reason Martin has gone mainstream. Joel pointed out that he has great plotting and world-building skills, but he also writes great characters, which the genre is usually lousy about.
September 23 at 8:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia and then kills them..... Look, a dirty little secret is that I've read a shit ton of fantasy/sci-fi growing up and I wasn't turned off by Martin's writing so much as I caught up when the 3rd book came out and simply lost interest.
September 23 at 8:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (better than anything by C S Lewis, though)
September 23 at 8:58am · Like
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Joel HF GRR Martin draws from history, but he also describes a believable world with more or less believable societies. Rowling's world is shallow--are all wizards employed by the ministry of magic, or just most of them?--and not terribly well fleshed out.
Rowling is also much more derivative, imo.
September 23 at 9:03am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rowling is for kids, Joel, be nice
September 23 at 9:04am · Like · 1
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Joel HF E. Nesbit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rowling.
September 23 at 9:05am · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and really people Martin is awful
September 23 at 9:05am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well, E Nesbit is certainly very different from Rowling
September 23 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia E Nesbit and MacDonald.
September 23 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I can't argue with you there Escalante (w/r/t GRR Martin not being v. good).
September 23 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he's a great script writer.
September 23 at 9:06am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the one great fantasy novel besides LOTR is Herbert's "Dune"
September 23 at 9:07am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Is "Dune" fantasy or sci-fi? And I have a great deal of love for Gene Wolfe. He's actually pretty good.
September 23 at 9:07am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Martin is just a soap-operafied rehash of the dumber kind of D and D sensibility, and owes a lot to D and D fiction I think; plus the all those trailer-parky faux-Celtic names, ugh
September 23 at 9:08am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I'd actually say that dialogue is one of GRR Martin's many weaknesses. He writes a good plot, or at least an engaging one.
September 23 at 9:08am · Like · 1
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Matthew Dugandzic This is the thread that never ends yes it goes on and on my friends
September 23 at 9:09am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Dune" is fantasy, really, because technology in it is "premodern"
September 23 at 9:09am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Dune was good but the only good Herbert novel. "The White Plague" "the jesus incident" and all the rest of the dune books were crap
September 23 at 9:10am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante indeed, true
September 23 at 9:10am · Like
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Michael Beitia the stereotypical "blind squirrel/nut"
September 23 at 9:10am · Like
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Joel HF If "Dune" is fantasy so is "A Canticle for Leibowitz," so that's another great fantasy novel beyond LOTR.
September 23 at 9:14am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I also think that Gene Wolfe might arguably fit into the "fantasy" genre.
September 23 at 9:14am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante sure
September 23 at 9:18am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Maybe I shouldn't mention the Twilight books, but once someone read one sentence aloud to me, and I thought it was a joke. Possibly some of the worst writing I've ever experienced.
September 23 at 9:34am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know why Joel keeps comparing Martin to Rowling. Totally different kinds of things.
September 23 at 9:35am · Like · 1
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Nina Rachele I think Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is incredibly good... but I love alternate histories. Another one along that line is The Bartimaeus Trilogy, which is actually a very moral set of books for recent young adult fantasy.
September 23 at 9:35am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^YES YES YES
September 23 at 9:36am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe To the Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell part of Nina's comment
September 23 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Did anyone else find reading "The Hunger Games" like getting punched in the brain over and over?
September 23 at 9:37am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe NO. Shut up.
September 23 at 9:37am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously. Shut up. I have to prep here. Can't defend Hunger Games.
September 23 at 9:38am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante uh oh about to go into schism with Samantha for the first time
September 23 at 9:39am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia good story, written by a four year old
September 23 at 9:40am · Like · 2
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Joel HF What's the great difference between Martin and Rowling? That HP is aimed at children?
September 23 at 9:41am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and that HP isnt soap opera
September 23 at 9:42am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe They have almost nothing in common. Plot, world, structure, themes, style, character-- all totally different
September 23 at 9:45am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys just shouldn't even read YA fiction if you can't get off your high horses a little bit first
September 23 at 9:46am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat, this is a sad moment for me
September 23 at 9:46am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well there's good YA and bad YA. E.L. Konigsburg > (vastly) Hunger Games
September 23 at 9:47am · Like
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Joel HF It isn't? Seriously, there is almost nothing well done about the HP books. Cardboard, unlikable (but not on purpose) characters, a flimsy world, trite plots, bad prose, wooden dialogue...
September 23 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Damn. Soap opera is a much better descriptor than miniseries. I tip my hat to you sir
September 23 at 9:49am · Like · 2
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Joel HF And, Samantha, the general dumbing down of kid's lit is a tragedy, not a defense of bad YA books.
September 23 at 9:51am · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Teaching now. Will crush you all later
September 23 at 9:52am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante EL Konigsburg and Arthur Ransome, good YA. Hunger Games, BAD
September 23 at 9:52am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rowling, mixed, not great
September 23 at 9:53am · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I almost hesitate to say the HP series isn't that great because that's definitely not the hill I'd want to die on, and I'd hate to be lumped in with the people who think it's going to turn twelve-year-olds into Aleister Crowley. But look at this list--almost every influence and analogue cited is a far better book, and she's cobbled together many of the influences very clumsily. The stitches totally show from the road. http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Harry_Potter_influences_and...
Harry Potter influences and analogues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Writer J. K. Rowling cites several writers as influences in...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 23 at 9:53am · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Not the worst books ever, but no literary triumph, either.
September 23 at 9:54am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Good luck with that Samantha.
September 23 at 9:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia my sister wrote a YA novel. It gets 3 stars from good reads
September 23 at 10:01am · Edited · Like
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Ryan Burke For both pro- and anti-HP people, why do you think HP became so immensely popular? I'm not trolling, I genuinely don't have a ready answer.
September 23 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ignorance?
September 23 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante misunderstood orphans escaping from drearydom to high adventure, castles, flying, quirky crotchets, wise wizards, young love, growth into responsibility through ordeal...whats not to like
September 23 at 10:09am · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil I felt the same way about the Hunger Games that Michael Beitia did about GoT. I read the first one and had no interest in reading the other two. Joel HF gave me the rundown on the plot and it doesn't sound like I missed much. (Far more controversially, I'm sure, this is also how I felt about Breaking Bad. I watched the first two seasons and did not feel a burning desire to keep going. Maybe someday. But it's not the best TV show ever if I don't give a damn about finishing it.)
September 23 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil (And yes, Joel HF, I'm outing you as the only adult in our household who has read all three HG books.)
September 23 at 10:11am · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Ryan Burke: Lack of exposure to better-quality options?
September 23 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante HP isnt great kid's lit, but it's not the worst, and I have a soft spot for it because it finally motivated my son to be game for Latin about which he had been hitherto grumpy
September 23 at 10:15am · Like · 3
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Ryan Burke Catherine, definitely things like Wind in the Willows and Homer have fallen out out of pop culture. From your view of HP as stitched together from greater forebears, it suggests a mostly unfulfilled appetite for good fiction. I wonder what books have been pulled along by the HP bandwagon, old or new
September 23 at 10:18am · Like · 3
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Ryan Burke And I want to go on record saying I liked the Divergent series, and loved the anti-utopian/Long Defeat sort of vibe
September 23 at 10:19am · Like
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Ryan Burke I also want to make clear that however stitched together HP may be, GoT "draws from history" with breadth and specificity that approaches plagiarism. (seriously, almost every strut of world-building and major piece of world backstory has a direct analogue). The scale of GoT invites comparison with Tolkien, which isn't really fair but causes me to judge GoT more harshly than I should. I did admire the Dorne arc in particular.
September 23 at 10:25am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Haven't read GoT, so I'll have to take your word for it, but just for the record, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't accusing Rowling of plagiarism.
September 23 at 10:26am · Like
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Ryan Burke Sorry Catharine, I didn't think you were, I just wanted to take a gratuitous shot at Martin again
September 23 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil No, no need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure we were all clear on that. My choice of phrase might have left that unclear.
September 23 at 10:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia can we at least agree that we don't know the size/shape of all the breasts in HP, something I can't say about a lot of other fantasy... (I'm looking at you Steven R Donaldson)
September 23 at 10:32am · Like · 3
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Ryan Burke Michael, you are like a troubadour of Facebook posts
September 23 at 10:37am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia what? (laughing to myself)
September 23 at 10:37am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sci-fi has the most quality of the last 30-40 years of all the contemporary genres.
September 23 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ryan Burke, the history of literature (particularly novels) stealing from history/real life is long, and I don't have a problem with it, nor with literary allusion to other works of literature (Tolstoy and Dante are exemplars of each). I will say that Rowling does nothing with her lifted elements and isn't even clever with them: Le Guin, Tom Brown's School Days, Nesbit (an acknowledged influence), The Little White Horse, ... she doesn't really transform her sources so much as clumsily patch together second rate copies of them. I will say her taste of influences is pretty good, and to the extent that those other works are discovered, then HP isn't all bad. But that's a tepid defense at best.
September 23 at 11:00am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ender's Game is better than the Hunger Games (which I didn't mind, although they weren't exactly top shelf anything. Comparing and contrasting the two is a good exercise that reveals superiority.
September 23 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But fantasy has hit a dead end. Sci-fi has not.
September 23 at 10:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The trick is finding a genre transcender, like, for instance, Raymond Chandler: The Long Goodbye transcends crime mystery stuff.
September 23 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill How far did you get through ender's game? The first few books were good. But it eventually fell apart completely into space Mormons.
September 23 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I just meant the first one.
September 23 at 10:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ok... Not the part where it is poligamy and space Mormons.
September 23 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But you people need to be reading fiction from Shūsaku Endō (Silence), Kazuo Ishiguro (Remains of the Day), Mo Yan (Frog), and the Chinese classics.
September 23 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Wheel of time also started out well, but got harder and harder to read without the story developing significantly.
September 23 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ok, I always like good recommendations.
September 23 at 10:51am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The Left Hand of Darkness, for instance, by Ursula K. Le Guin has a protagonist on a planet of androgynous people - it is likely taken as some kind of Progressive statement about gender, but in reality I think it much more pro active and insightful than that.
September 23 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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James Heffernan I disagree that fantasy has hit a dead end. I think most writers struggle with originality, which is why so many fail, but there are a few gems remaining.
September 23 at 10:56am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Eifelheim, by Michael Flynn, about what happens when aliens converge on a medieval village during the time of the plague - now that's a fairly recent book any TACer would like find arresting.
September 23 at 11:00am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson James Heffernan: list off some gems and near gems so we can read 'em if we haven't already.
September 23 at 10:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia how about this:
Sci-fi/fantasy suffers from a whole hoard of misogynistic writing and puerile 12 yo fantasies. that's why most of it sucks
September 23 at 11:00am · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Song of Ice and Fire (GoT is only the first in the series) is absolutely wonderful, and a great relief to me after being continually sickened by self-satisfied fantasy poking along in a sad Tolkein imitation. Wheel of Time is a perfect example of the kind of fantasy that is almost a parody of itself.
September 23 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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James Heffernan Mistborn Trilogy and the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. Star Bearer Trilogy by Patricia Mckillip.
September 23 at 11:02am · Like
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Joel HF Tbf, most books in any genre--"literary novels" included--are terrible.
September 23 at 11:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia true Joel, but at the same time they don't suffer from the same defects.
September 23 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill And yet they were published and people read them.
September 23 at 11:04am · Like
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Michael Beitia right, and 80% of men look at porn so what's the problem, right?
September 23 at 11:04am · Like
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James Heffernan So was Twilight.
September 23 at 11:04am · Like
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Artur Sebastian Rosman This is the thread that never ends!
September 23 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Key to writing standard fantasy: come up with almost unpronounceable names that look exotic in print. Come up with an Unlikely Hero as protagonist. A peppy, independent woman needs to be involved, and she has to keep the hero at a distance for a long time before ultimately succumbing as his Prize. There should be prophecies that the characters all distrust but which the author takes very seriously. Probably a few secret clans or mysterious religious groups that the hero at one point will have ot join, demonstrating his fabulousness by reaching the Higher Levels in record time. There will be Good Guys and Bad Guys. Any women worth mentioning will be either young and beautiful, or old so it doesn't matter what they look like. A few characters you like die, and it's sad, but you never doubt that the protagonist will make it through because the author looooooves him and is so impressed with his little fantasy world.
George R.R. Martin does none of this shite.
September 23 at 11:06am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Did someone block me? No idea what Michael Beitia's porn comment or the "so was Twilight" by Heffernan comment are about.
September 23 at 11:08am · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeff Neill?
September 23 at 11:08am · Like
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Jeff Neill I commented that people read bad fiction and miler motioned other forms of written publications that are commonly (Stupid autocorrxt ). My point is quality is not necessary for success.
September 23 at 11:12am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't block folk
September 23 at 11:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia can you be blocked on your own thread?
September 23 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Have any of you read Mary Doria Russell's "The Sparrow"? In which Jesuits go on a missionary trip to an alien planet? Very theological. And not pretty.
September 23 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger All right. I went back and reread my posts. Realize that they were misleading. Sorry folks. My main beef is with the laws against Holocaust denial. I can't find a definition of what that means. It's related to hate speach. Neither of these can I get behind. So, apologies for misleading everyone.
My main CONCERN with the holocaust is what is the meaning of it? how was it caused? what were the reasons for antisemitism? ...... because I really think it can happen again. There's also some fuzzy math there. Why the insistence on precisely six million (I honestly don't know the meaning of that number)? Anyways, lots of legit questions that have nothing to do with denying the holocaust.
I think Williamson was very imprudent and I DON'T agree with him, but I read up on what happened to him. I don't think anyone here has. strike that. I'm sure the haters haven't. Can't get behind him nor his approval of the "Poem of the Man-God" and other stuff. But I have some sympathy for him. He's an interesting fellow if he's gone off the deep end in a few ways. But I don't know him or any SSPX clergy personally and only met a few on one day. (I think he was mistreated by the SSPX too. Loooooot's to read about that and really really weird how the SSPX -- SO were kicked out.)
September 23 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Matthew J. Peterson wrote,"Sci-fi has the most quality of the last 30-40 years of all the contemporary genres." That's interesting. I can't get into it despite having lots of friends love it. And Jehoshaphat Escalante, I gotta disagree about Dune. A priest and good friend encouraged my reading of that years ago. It's popularity is interesting. In fact, the whole phenomena of sci-fi and fantasy is very interesting.
September 23 at 11:13am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Rebecca Bratten Weiss - no, but now it is on my list. So do your think Martin is not fantasy, or is better fantasy (I'm assuming).
September 23 at 11:13am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Dune is better fantasy than most fantasy.
September 23 at 11:14am · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss It's good fantasy. It uses the freedom permitted by the genre well, instead of assuming that the genre provides a blueprint. Reading SOIAF rejuvenated my sense of what fantasy could be, so of course I now have my own fantasy plot in the works, again, after giving up 20 years ago.
September 23 at 11:15am · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Dune is a must-read. for many reasons, not least that one is happier when able to make jokes about Spice.
September 23 at 11:15am · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger True about Dune. But I had probs with it. LIS the fantasy and sci-fi genre which I loved as a youth are an interesting phenomena.
September 23 at 11:16am · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree that Dune should be read. I can't get behind the Dune love that friends have.
September 23 at 11:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger Rebecca Bratten Weiss IS NOW trapped in the net of tNET.
September 23 at 11:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Anyone else read the Shannara books by Terry Brooks as a teenager? Those were delightful, if definitely derivative of Tolkein.
September 23 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I liked Terry Brooks. Was long ago, but enjoyed them.
September 23 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger That makes like FIVE real life people I know that are caught up in tNET which is soon to take over all FB.
September 23 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The more recent entries, not so much. But the Heritage of Shannara series of four books was really good, especially the Druid of Shannara.
September 23 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes.
September 23 at 11:20am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You people also should be reading Richard Russo's accounts of small town life in America. Recognized by everybody, he draws from western NY state where I grew up from time to time. Nobody's Fool was a great movie and the books are better.
September 23 at 11:22am · Like
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Joel HF What does LIS stand for?
September 23 at 11:24am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And taking that up a notch, read Marilynne Robinson (Gilead, etc.) but I think Samantha Cohoe told you that already.
September 23 at 11:24am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger LIS = like I said
September 23 at 11:30am · Like
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Pater Edmund Thank you Thread for recommending Lucky Jim. Brilliantly funny. «...the prospect of reciting the title of the article he'd written. It was a perfect title, in that it crystallized the article's niggling mindlessness, its funereal parade of yawn-enforcing facts, the pseudo-light it threw upon non-problems. Dixon had read, or begun to read, dozens like it, but his own seemed worse than most in its air of being convinced of its own usefulness and significance. 'In considering this strangely neglected topic,' it began. This what neglected topic? This strangely what topic? This strangely neglected what? His thinking all this without having defiled and set fire to the typescript only made him appear to himself as more of a hypocrite and fool.»
September 23 at 11:52am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Does anyone remember Lloyd Alexander fondly from youth?
September 23 at 11:52am · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict ^THE BEST
September 23 at 11:53am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Westmark! the best!
September 23 at 11:54am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia my kids have all of them including weird ones about time travelling cats
September 23 at 12:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, I added Lucky Jim to my list several hundred comments ago.
September 23 at 12:14pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Now have 10 books to read from tNET. decisions decisions decisions ........
September 23 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger tNET or read books?
September 23 at 12:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Michael Beitia: what should I do? Read some Austen or just continue grilling and deriding her on tNET? WWJD?
September 23 at 12:16pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss What Would Virginia Woolf Do?
Never mind....not a good route to follow....
September 23 at 12:19pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Stephen King's Dark Tower series is in many respects very good fantasy; unfortunately, he got himself into a bit of a rut as a popular horror writer and had trouble dislodging himself at times. Nothing against horror - but it's important never to be a slave to one's own idiom.
September 23 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I completely missed "Lucky Jim" being mentioned on tNET
September 23 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger comment 18,674
September 23 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why do you guys talk about all the fun things when I've got stuff to do?
September 23 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger conspiracy
September 23 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Beitia-- what is your sister's name? Who is she published with?
September 23 at 12:24pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF How do you all know which comment number each post is
September 23 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger that was a joke.
September 23 at 12:26pm · Like
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Joel HF People still seem able to tell, for instance, when the round numbers are coming up.
September 23 at 12:27pm · Like
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Joel HF #commentnumbergnosis
September 23 at 12:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't understand the complaint that Harry Potter is "derivative." Who cares? Everything is derivative. Rowling took elements from everything and made an awesome story out of them.
September 23 at 12:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyone holding up "the wind in the willows" and "tom brown's school days" as better examples of kid's lit don't know what kid's lit should be aiming at.
September 23 at 12:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Oh look yet another Christ allegory.... Should be good reading. ....not
September 23 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Why not? Why wouldn't story-tellers want to borrow from the greatest story in human history?
September 23 at 12:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #commentnumbergnosis I could tell you, Joel, .....
September 23 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF If you read, you'll see that no-one dislikes it simply b/c it is derivative, but b/c it is a clumsy poorly-told derivative.
September 23 at 12:31pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And, are you really saying that "Wind in the Willows" and "Tom Brown's School Days" aren't as good as HP?
September 23 at 12:32pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Have any of you read Pooh Perplex? He has a hilarious faux- essay by a faux-literary critic who sees Eeyore as the Christ figure (because every story has to has one, he says) of Winnie Pooh
September 23 at 12:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wind in the Willows is so boring.
September 23 at 12:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.amazon.com/Last-Good-Place-Lily.../dp/0738720682
The Last Good Place of Lily Odilon
"We have to get to her first…" Abducted? Runaway? Murder victim? Lily Odilon—local wild child from a...
AMAZON.COM
September 23 at 12:32pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha! are you serious!
September 23 at 12:33pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Kids don't read it because it's boring.
September 23 at 12:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia to be clear, this^^^ is not great fiction
September 23 at 12:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Oh, Samantha!
September 23 at 12:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yes. Sorry.
September 23 at 12:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ok what about the examples I have earlier? EL Konigsburg and Arthur Ransome?
September 23 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pooh Perplex: to top of reading list, Jehoshaphat Escalante
September 23 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante (who are very different but both very good)
September 23 at 12:34pm · Like
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Joel HF I read Wind in the Willows time after time as a kid.
September 23 at 12:34pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, those are good.
September 23 at 12:34pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Kids love W in [t]W
September 23 at 12:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante my kids love Wind in the Willows
September 23 at 12:36pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Haven't read enough of either to really judge, Escalante
September 23 at 12:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I bet they love Harry Potter more, though
September 23 at 12:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because it is so much more fun
September 23 at 12:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you got me there
September 23 at 12:37pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger We don't use that word in my household: viz. he who shall not be named.
September 23 at 12:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 20834
September 23 at 12:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but let's discuss the truly great children's literature: eg, ENCYCLOPEDIA BROWN
September 23 at 12:38pm · Edited · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger 20836 [taunting Joel here]
September 23 at 12:38pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF So is Fifty Shades of Grey--and hey, I bet Christopher West is already working on his book on the Theology of the Body and Fifty Shades of Grey
September 23 at 12:38pm · Like
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Joel HF (Not that HP is as bad as that)
September 23 at 12:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I really loved "The Great Brain" series as a kid. Has anyone else read those, or is it a Utah/Idaho thing?
September 23 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Wind in the Willows is the good shiz
September 23 at 12:39pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe If HP was fun because it titillated, then you would have a point.
September 23 at 12:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But Kipling's imperialist self rawks too.
September 23 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I read them all and loved them when I was little. I don't think I enjoyed them much when I looked back when I was older. (re Michael Beitia's Great Brain Q)
September 23 at 12:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Treasure Island is the shiz
September 23 at 12:40pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Kidnapped is better
September 23 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hunger Games is good because it's a gripping story, which makes up for the stylistic weaknesses.
September 23 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Mockingjay was garbage, though, I'll freely admit that
September 23 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante what about Hinton?
September 23 at 12:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I like the "Black Arrow". Not so big on Treasure Island.
September 23 at 12:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Dunno Hinton
September 23 at 12:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Far better than Rowling's Harry Potter series is Ayn Rand's Harry Potter series
September 23 at 12:47pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Start here: http://the-toast.net/.../ayn-rands-harry-potter.../
Ayn Rand's Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Ayn Rand presents Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.
THE-TOAST.NET
September 23 at 12:43pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe those are hilarious
September 23 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Kids should read Edgar drunk ass Poe more these days too.
September 23 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe There aren't any Ayn Rand fans on tNET, are there? I always like yelling at people about Ayn Rand.
September 23 at 12:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia funny, I thought the writing got better as HG went on
September 23 at 12:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ....... Matthew J. Peterson, I think that can give kids nightmares actually. My kids get them from much less. (Poe.)
September 23 at 12:46pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Ayn Rand sucks
September 23 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe but the story fell apart.
September 23 at 12:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "Ayn Rand sucks" is a repetitive and redundant reiterative statement.
September 23 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but I felt less like I was being punched in the brain
September 23 at 12:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson At this point I think Ayn Rand is overly slammed - people are Rand-shamed into silence when the more interesting question is "why so popular?"
September 23 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew you do so know Hinton. Rumble Fish , The Outsiders, etc
September 23 at 12:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I agree, Matthew J. Peterson.
September 23 at 12:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Rand is only popular because quoting it makes teenage boys feel smart
September 23 at 12:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael how can you be so sensitive when you admit to having read a ton of fantasy? Haven't you built up a tolerance?
September 23 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But still, Atlas Shrugged: reading that I felt violated. I did not tear up the book and burn it page by page in just retribution only because it was a library book under someone else's name. no ...... there cannot be too much vituperation for her incessant rant.
September 23 at 12:48pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have no dog in the fight - I've never really been interested in Rand. I think I tried once and put it down. But it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to it
Because leftish pseudo-philosophy fiction that sucks is so pervasive and usual we don't even notice it, and lots of smarties read and cite it.
September 23 at 12:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I was intrigued by something Jeff said ages ago about Game of Thrones-- something about two gods who haven't been revealed yet fighting it out. Assuming one of them is R'hollor, who is the other one?
September 23 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I read Rand on an 800 mile road trip. I should have closed it earlier. Putting it down is the right reaction. I get angry because people actually read it and folllow it and think it's great (I just DON'T get it). Her soul is dead, dead, dead. Love Chamber's criticism "Big Sister is Watching"
September 23 at 12:52pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia reading a "shit ton" of fantasy doesn't mean one can't see the defects
September 23 at 12:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was totally an Objectivist for, like, a week when I was 15 after I read the Fountainhead.
September 23 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or "The virtue of selfishness"
September 23 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But grown adults still imbibe that stuff. Like Matthew says, lots of other leftist books that are almost as bad.
September 23 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "How Austen introduced the virtue of selfishness"
September 23 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, but unless you really like being punched in the brain, having read "a shit ton" of fantasy it is an argument that bad style doesn't make you feel like you're being punched in the brain.
September 23 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Probably because as I get older I have less tolerance for crap.
September 23 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger yeah. I can't read stuff that punches me in the brain. I wanna punch something back.
September 23 at 12:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And that gets me into troubles.
September 23 at 12:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia How come Umberto Eco gets no love?
September 23 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Matthew Peterson's point bears repeating: "But it is more interesting to consider why she was and is so popular and why people were and are drawn to it." Why is that? This is the sort of thing that I ask about lots of books (including things like Dune and HP and even LOTR). Very interesting and fruitful considerations)\
September 23 at 12:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Beitia, Eco's on my radar and I almost read him. But I've just been soooo disappointed with so many books.
September 23 at 12:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I read better stuff. Still might look at Eco. Which one do you recommend?
September 23 at 1:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have all of them. Foucault's Pendulum is a personal favorite, but you might enjoy Baudalino more.
September 23 at 1:01pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Sorry Sam, at a chiropractor office, but I'm baited to answer your question.
September 23 at 1:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger added to reading list ^^^ Beitia.
September 23 at 1:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the best thing is you can usually get them for $.99 on amazon in hard back because no one ever finishes them...
September 23 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger yeah. I look for those deals, especially for kids books.
September 23 at 1:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ["Better books" ======= not novels]
September 23 at 1:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger like tNET
September 23 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Escalante Westmark is not the best L. Alexander; at least, it's a great story but the evil revolutionaries are portrayed as the good guys.... The First Two Lives of Lukas-Kasha was my favorite I think, but it also had the whole women's liberation bit which was tiresome...
September 23 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger How's that quote from Metropolitan (Stillman) go, you know the one about Austen criticism. (Haven't seen it in a while.)
September 23 at 1:10pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund Also Samantha Cohoe: as a child I LOVED the Wind in the Willows.
September 23 at 1:08pm · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund How can you say it's boring? Toad gowing to jail is boring? Badger collecting clubs and pistols?
September 23 at 1:09pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia as to Ayn Rand, the "moral" philosophy is solipsistic, and can't be argued against. It is purely to make the "objectivist" feel good about himself.
September 23 at 1:09pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I even liked Tom Brown's Schooldays as a child, although I admit to finding the beginning and the end parts boring. The middle is intensely exciting though.
September 23 at 1:10pm · Like
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Owen Sweeney Jr. "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~ John Rogers
September 23 at 1:10pm · Like · 9
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Daniel Lendman With regard to children's literature, Wind in the Willows is outstanding.
Also, have any read the Red Wall books. I found them, on the whole, delightful.
September 23 at 1:11pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia We have the entire Red Wall corpus in the kids' library....
September 23 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I liked Redwall for a time, but then got "too old" for it.
September 23 at 1:12pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger , “You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.”
September 23 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Sure sign of inferior children's lit. is that one gets too old for it.
September 23 at 1:12pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia the Flying Dutchman books got some re-reads from the kids.
September 23 at 1:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm a bit sad not to be in the boy's club on this one, but I was utterly bored by Wind in the Willows. I don't remember it that well, but I remember how boring I found it.
September 23 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Tom's TRUTH: “You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.” ------ his downfall was giving in to reading Austen: classic case of domestication.
September 23 at 1:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think I was eight or nine.
September 23 at 1:13pm · Like
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Joel HF Most kids think McDonalds is delicious. This doesn't mean one should allow one's children to eat junk food.
September 23 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Have the Chronicals of Prydain been mentioned? They were my favorite for a long time.
September 23 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yeah, I brought those up
September 23 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, maybe Wind in the Willows is the kale smoothie of children's lit, Joel.
September 23 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund « The Rat looked very grave, and stood in deep thought for a minute or two. Then he re-entered the house, strapped a belt round his waist, shoved a brace of pistols into it, took up a stout cudgel that stood in a corner of the hall, and set off for the Wild Wood at a smart pace.
It was already getting towards dusk when he reached the first fringe of trees and plunged without hesitation into the wood, looking anxiously on either side for any sign of his friend. Here and there wicked little faces popped out of holes, but vanished immediately at sight of the valorous animal, his pistols, and the great ugly cudgel in his grasp; and the whistling and pattering, which he had heard quite plainly on his first entry, died away and ceased, and all was very still. He made his way manfully through the length of the wood, to its furthest edge; then, forsaking all paths, he set himself to traverse it, laboriously working over the whole ground, and all the time calling out cheerfully, 'Moly, Moly, Moly! Where are you? It's me—it's old Rat!' »
September 23 at 1:14pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe btw, in case there are any weirdos here, "kale smoothie" is a stinging insult
September 23 at 1:15pm · Like
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Nina Rachele has anyone else read The Iron Ring by Alexander? probably my favorite of all his books.
September 23 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund « 'Exactly,' said the Badger; 'that is my point. The weasels will trust entirely to their excellent sentinels. And that is where the passage comes in. That very useful tunnel leads right up under the butler's pantry, next to the dining-hall!'
'Aha! that squeaky board in the butler's pantry!' said Toad. 'Now I understand it!'
'We shall creep out quietly into the butler's pantry—' cried the Mole.
'—with our pistols and swords and sticks—' shouted the Rat.
'—and rush in upon them,' said the Badger.
'—and whack 'em, and whack 'em, and whack 'em!' cried the Toad in ecstasy, running round and round the room, and jumping over the chairs. »
September 23 at 1:15pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia yup
September 23 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and by 'weirdos,' I mean, people who claim to like kale smoothies.
September 23 at 1:15pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I ran around and jumped onto chairs on hearing the above passage read aloud.
September 23 at 1:16pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, was that meant to not be boring?
September 23 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the bit about Toad running around in ecstasy is cute.
September 23 at 1:17pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Not boring.
September 23 at 1:17pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe So is the imagine of small Pater Edmund jumping on chairs
September 23 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think the difference is that little boys find swords and sticks endlessly fascinating and little girls don't.
September 23 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia sexist
September 23 at 1:19pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Daniel, Prydain has been mentioned implicitly, but Jehoshaphat Escalante prefers Westmark—the crypto-Jacobin!
September 23 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele Samantha I also didn't like WitW but I've read The Swiss Family Robinson about 6 times, (which I know some other people find boring) so I don't totally trust my own judgment.
September 23 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's called "gender essentialism," and I've already copped to it.
September 23 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Thank you, Nina, I was starting to feel very alone.
September 23 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I think they might have chocolate in the recreation room... Hmm the Thread or chocolate with my confreres—hard choice.
September 23 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe btw, if I ever get my YA book published, none of you are allowed to read it.
September 23 at 1:22pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Darn, even if you use my walk in the snow description?
September 23 at 1:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's going in the sequel, but no. Not even then.
September 23 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger “You don’t have to read a book to have an opinion. . . . I don’t read novels. I prefer good literary criticism—that way you get both the novelists’ ideas and the TNET’s thinking.” Or should I (re)read the drivel? That is the question. INPUT here please, tNET. Do you have to read it all to have an informed opinion? Can't one limit himself to a few good books to read again and again. Like toad running around and jumping on chairs. That's my opinion.
September 23 at 1:23pm · Like
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Nina Rachele if I ever publish my book I am going to link it on here and I expect everyone to give me five star reviews to help drive up my rating.
September 23 at 1:24pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund My great uncle just read Brideshead Revisited over and over again in the last years of his life.
September 23 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You're expecting *these* people to give you a five star review?
September 23 at 1:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater, that's what I'm saying. A really good book can be read again and again to much better good than many lesser books.
September 23 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I will give five star reviews to any Thread authors who publish novels, but the have to mention the Thread in the author's note.
September 23 at 1:25pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe I would read the first part of Brideshead over and over. I don't think the second half bears a lot of re-reading
September 23 at 1:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia read all the things
September 23 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund «Young men, especially in America, write to me and ask me to recommend “a course of reading.” Distrust a course of reading! People who really care for books read all of them. There is no other course.» –Andrew Lang
September 23 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger no, Beitia. I think a good selection of all the things is good enough. Like the first couple pages of Twilight. No need to read more.........
September 23 at 1:26pm · Like
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Nina Rachele it seems like a lot of people on here would love to participate in a conspiracy and this seems harmless enough to fulfill their dreams... and to help me out as well. it's a win-win.
September 23 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia all the things
September 23 at 1:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ..........not only that but I COULD not read more. CAN NOT do. It was torture
September 23 at 1:27pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Beitia = masochist. Sick one he.
September 23 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hmm, that's a good theory Nina.
September 23 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Auf ein baldiges Wiedersehen, Thread, time to go get some Chocolate.
September 23 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I might do that too as long as everyone agrees not to read it. Wouldn't want anyone to feel that they were being punched in the brain.
September 23 at 1:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, that is wrong wrong wrong. I like Vives course of reading to a young man beginning on Greek. I think the early books are most important. After you've taken a good course (got a good start), maybe it's ok to READ ALL THINGS. But that's not possible. And many THE BEST THINKERS '/ WRITERS settled on just one or two books (like Plato)
September 23 at 1:34pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger ...... The Clouds.
September 23 at 1:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET is like getting punched in the brain.
September 23 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe AHA! so you do like it.
September 23 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^^^ masochist QED
September 23 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, John called it right, I'm a masochist.
I finished Auto De Fe by Elias Canetti
September 23 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil FTR, although I certainly think some children's books appeal more to boys, or more to girls, I never thought of The Wind in the Willows as one of those books. I liked it a lot as a child.
September 23 at 1:36pm · Like · 7
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Catherine Joliat Feil (And still do.)
September 23 at 1:37pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Also FTR: although it makes for a good simile, Joel HF is way more likely to let his children eat McDonald's than read bad literature.
September 23 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Simile? Please, it was a metagism.
September 23 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
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Annette FitzGerald The Wind in the Willows was my all time favorite book growing up, I read it so many times I even made up my own melodies for the poems in it.
September 23 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I used to love the Stillman. I think my disaffection dovetailed with my disaffection for HER who will no longer be named.
September 23 at 2:19pm · Like
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Joel HF I Whit Stillman. Weren't we all praising him not long ago on tNET?
September 23 at 2:22pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Everybody should take the Amazon poll so that they make more episodes of The Cosmopolitans.
September 23 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Wind in the Willows is absolutely wonderful. I still stand by this as a life philosophy: “Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”
September 23 at 2:45pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Also, the Redwall series is some of the best children's literature ever. I have never gotten tired of that series and still return to favorite scenes and events in my imagination. Martin the Warrior was my favorite entry. I have to admit that they got a mild repetitive the more Brian Jacques wrote, God rest his soul.
September 23 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You know, I met Jacques when I was about 10 years old. My Dad took me to a book signing, and I waited in line with my heart pounding. When I got up to the front, he shook my hand and said in his delightful Scouser accent "What's your name then?"
"My name's Isak," I said. He looked me up and down for a second, and I will never forget what he said next.
"And with a cold smile, Isak drew his sword and lopped off the head of the principal."
Then he signed two of my books. I still have them.
September 23 at 2:50pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict He looked in my soul and gave me a story. Summed up my essence at age 10. God bless him, I miss him so much.
September 23 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I LOVED Wind in the Willows when I was very small. But I also eat kale in large quantities, and not in smoothies.
September 23 at 2:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe kale's fine if you cook it with bacon.
September 23 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Note to self: if you leave the never ending thread, you will miss the discussion on Ayn Rand, and the opportunity to talk about being a teenage objectivist, and how it does NOT get one dates.
September 23 at 2:52pm · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I sautee it in butter with scads of garlic.
September 23 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that works, too.
September 23 at 2:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "objectivist"
September 23 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I didn't get any dates that one week when I was 15.
September 23 at 2:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Those were strange times, the '50s...
September 23 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Brian Jacques, people. Brian Jacques. Go read Redwall again, Pater Edmund
September 23 at 2:54pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe That was a good story, Isak. I feel it deserves more recognition than a couple of likes.
September 23 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict TNET recognizes it, likes or no.
September 23 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Why is your name spelled like that?
September 23 at 2:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's Czech. I'm named after Isak Dinesen.
September 23 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, that's all right, then.
September 23 at 2:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm so glad you approve...
September 23 at 2:58pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Wasn't she Danish?
September 23 at 2:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes, but Isak Dinesen was her pen name.
September 23 at 2:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've been meaning to ask you that for a while, but I figured I should wait until after I said something nice, to balance out the rudeness. Did it work?
September 23 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Have any of you read her short story Sorrow-Acre? I want to hold a beer seminar soon on it. Breathtaking.
September 23 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Haha I wouldn't have minded. It's an unusual spelling, not rude to ask about it in my opinion
September 23 at 3:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Is Cohoe a Scottish name?
September 23 at 3:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No one knows.
September 23 at 3:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Cohoe who first emigrated this way was from Ireland, but they think the name may have originated elsewhere.
September 23 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Also - deceptively attractive and ultimately insidious children's series - His Dark Materials, Philip Pullman.
September 23 at 3:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Irish = Awesome
September 23 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, my maiden name is Scottish. I'm not Irish.
September 23 at 3:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Still awesome
September 23 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was gobsmacked when I finished His Dark Materials.
September 23 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Gobsmacked! SUCH a good word
September 23 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think Philip Pullman might actually be evil.
September 23 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Of all the places in the world, the one I want to visit most is Ireland. All of it.
September 23 at 3:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'd rather go to Scotland.
September 23 at 3:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I think you might be right. About Pullman that is.
September 23 at 3:09pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 23 at 3:08pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Man! I was so close!
September 23 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I haven't gotten any of the ,000 comments!
September 23 at 3:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict NAILED IT
September 23 at 3:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict TNET CAN DRINK NOW
September 23 at 3:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I'd like to buy tNET a whiskey sour. That was my first legal drink in a bar.
September 23 at 3:10pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Okay time to teach some rhetoric classes. See you later TNET.
September 23 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I got several, Samantha. But I have an army of kids that monitor the situation so that I can pounce on the glory.
September 23 at 3:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really?
September 23 at 3:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [I am a crypto-rabbit. Don't tell Michael Beitia.]
September 23 at 3:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [undomesticated though]
September 23 at 3:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Here I am back when I was just a weee little tike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA
Monty Python The Holy Grail - The killer bunny
Here is the infamous rabbit scene. That rabbit's dynamite!
YOUTUBE.COM
September 23 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia 21012 - Palindromic is better than round. Just sayin'
#mathgnosis
September 23 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Guess I'll just have to shoot for 32123
September 23 at 3:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or 21112 - it's closer
September 23 at 4:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 211112 - purer
September 23 at 5:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ugh... I just lost what I typed for you.
The title actually fits the series, "a song of ice and fire". The story is of theology, politics and ethics. The main gods being a diafied ice god and fire god, each controlling the seasons of summer and winter. (Hence seasons can last years or generations).
The stark family starts as the most virtuous, but through excesses in their virtues, the patents die and their children become the extremes, personified Demi-God in the "tree of life, and personified Demi-God in "death" (faceless ones).
Only through renouncing vice and sin are any characters saved.
What hooks the reader is the slow train wreck of best intentions that devolve into "just punishment".
At this point you could almost make a Christ allegory or Homeric epic, with the onion knight as the "good thief" and Reek as Judas.
I anticipate that the family will reunite, but will destroy themselves as the pawns of the ice and fire gods.
I could type more but thumbs on cell phones are not good mediums for typing.
September 23 at 5:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger onion knight and Reek. Is that one or two people?
September 23 at 5:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Huh, so is there a god of the white walkers who is the ice god?
September 23 at 5:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And who do you see getting "saved" by renouncing vice and sin?
September 23 at 5:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And don't say Jaime. His redemption arc is a big con Martin is trying to play on us
September 23 at 5:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The hound joins a monastery. (He didn't die)
September 23 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Jamie is partially redeemed but I agree he will fall again.
And the "onion knight" and reek are two people. (Sorry if I wasn't clear... For those that haven't read)
September 23 at 5:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes the white walkers are from the ice God but are not it itself.
That the white walkers even exist is one of the best subplots since they do not have an active role (since everything is perspective based and they are barely encountered)
September 23 at 6:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Re: the hound-- Is that a theory, or did I miss a major plot point?
September 23 at 6:05pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Missed it.
September 23 at 6:05pm · Like
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Jeff Neill And the imp.
September 23 at 6:05pm · Like
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Joel HF It is a theory, but the textual evidence is extremely strong (and George RR had all but admitted it in interviews, I believe)
September 23 at 6:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Deaths that occur off stage in A Song of Ice and Fire are always suspect.
September 23 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The challenge is you never get a clear Theon Greyjoy is now just called Reek until much further. In he tv series it is very immediately clear that he is reek.
September 23 at 6:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Even on stage deaths are suspect
September 23 at 6:08pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Out of nowhere you have zombies, undead and Frankenstein.....
September 23 at 6:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, even some on stage deaths are suspect, though usually there is at least an actual (though perhaps not final) death.
September 23 at 6:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Or not.
September 23 at 6:11pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Unless they are burned.
September 23 at 6:11pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't like Daenaries. (Spelling?) she has too many flaws and set on way too high of a pedestal with a "divine right of kings" subtext.
September 23 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'll take Austen over Martin...
September 23 at 6:13pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill Daenerys, actually.
September 23 at 6:13pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ...and I probably won't take Austen...
September 23 at 6:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill One writes of social ethics on the small scale, the other on social ethics of a large scale.
I prefer global politics over. Local.
September 23 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I know, they're not really comparable.
September 23 at 6:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Best children's literature for adults?
I vote The Velveteen Rabbit.
September 23 at 6:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Winnie the Pooh. Or Alice in wonderland. (Euclid #gnosis)
September 23 at 6:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The Little Prince.
September 23 at 6:26pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Here are a few gems to ponder. http://www.buzzfeed.com/patric.../touch-the-cow-do-it-now...
19 Unintentionally Disturbing Moments From Kids' Books
" Touch the COW. Do it now. "
BUZZFEED.COM|BY PATRICK SMITH
September 23 at 6:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm still not convinced by the virtue narrative though, Jeff. Weren't the hound's "last" regrets wishing he'd gone ahead and raped Sansa when he had the chance?
September 23 at 6:50pm · Like
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Joel HF This thread makes me wonder if there is an inverse proportion between a man's dislike of Austen and his height.
September 23 at 6:51pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe And tyrion doesn't turn to virtue, he's just consistently less horrible than everyone else
September 23 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Joel - that one went right over my head...
September 23 at 6:53pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Men who love Austen do not do so in proportion to height, necessarily, but those who dislike her? You wouldn't happen to be extremely short would you Isak Benedict? Just a wild guess!
September 23 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Just a little humor.
September 23 at 6:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I am quite short, but you mean to tell me you had no previous knowledge of that?
September 23 at 6:54pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Sam, Sandor said that only to taunt Arya to kill him and end his suffering.. It wasn't genuine. As for tyre ion, he is on a slow path to virtue, with his obvious vice of lust, which he is trying to overcome.
September 23 at 6:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Is John Ruplinger also short? What made you wonder about an inverse proportion? If at the very least a correlation could be established that would be truly hilarious.
September 23 at 6:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill How much do I like Austen?
September 23 at 7:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #gnosis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffyiV14LmDQ
Akram Khan - Gnosis
Sadler's Wells Theatre 26 & 27 April 2010 Khan's new solo piece, created with Gauri Sharma Tripathi and Pratap...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 23 at 7:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #teasergnosis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWRjcLdJvMw
AKRAM KHAN: TEASER GNOSIS
teaser de l'émission de Arte du 3 juillet 2010, chorégraphie: akram khan, réaiisation: denis caïozzi, production:...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 23 at 7:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff, you're right, I misremembered. I did read all the books over the course of about two months, so it blurs together a bit
September 23 at 7:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But when does tyrion ever try to overcome his lust?
September 23 at 7:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill After he's married he lives a chaste life (since his wife hates him)
September 23 at 7:29pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And also, I felt very conned by these redemption arcs in which true moral monsters (Jaime and Sandor) are suddenly so sympathetic because they kind of refrain from doing horrible things for a while.
September 23 at 7:31pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill He isn't an angel though... But he makes a legit go at living a virtuous life And seeking a student (since he is the philosopher teacher)
September 23 at 7:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jaime POV chapters spend all this time reassuring us that he had really good reasons for killing the mad king, whereas throwing bran out the window is never addressed
September 23 at 7:32pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm not so sure Tyrion is really getting better throughout the series.
September 23 at 7:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And Sandor feels bad for letting the kingsguard mistreat Sansa, but that's totally mild compared to chopping up he butchers boy and dropping him home in a sack
September 23 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe In the last book, tyrion spends all his time drunk and despondent, not exactly a step toward virtue
September 23 at 7:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, better than what he was doing the last time we saw him.
September 23 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF (Hard to talk about this book w/o spoiling stuff.)
September 23 at 7:38pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Trying to work on the vice of lust. Hah. Said every man ever.
September 23 at 7:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah, I'm not reading all this crap. But I'm not watching it either.
September 23 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I forget the Saint, but I remember in one sermon Father Buckley said "And this holy woman was even tempted by impure thoughts on her death-bed...of all places!"
September 23 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If I was on a two week vacation I might take all the books with me but as things stand I don't start with Martin because if it hooks me I WILL immoderately ingest them all ASAP
September 23 at 7:41pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Like an ANIMAL
September 23 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If animals could read, and the desire for story was base, and ... hmm
September 23 at 7:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF When do we circle back to Theology?
September 23 at 7:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Like a rational ANIMAL.
September 23 at 7:47pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson As Andrew Seeley points out, Aristotle never calls human beings rational animals.
Who does first? What is the source of the phrase? When does it become popular?
September 23 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Porphyry.
September 23 at 7:53pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And does it just take off from there?
September 23 at 7:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And why does he introduce it and how - its a bizarre bit, actually.
September 23 at 7:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And why whenever I hear his name do I think of this cartoon jingle music behind someone saying in chipper voice: "porphyry the phoenician!"
September 23 at 7:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Great point in Jamie, but then again, the story isn't over yet.... And the Stark family is known for dispensing justice.
But as said before, you don't want to give it away in the event people despise to read it themselves.
September 23 at 7:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Porphyry does it in the Isagoge, in attempting to fill out his tree so as to give full evidence for the predicables; though he actually subdivides rational animal into mortal and immortal. I think it might be Boethius who runs amok with the definition, actually, but my late Ancient/early Medieval is a little fuzzy.
September 23 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Porphyry is the source for it at TAC, but it is naturally put on Aristotle almost without noticing. Clearly it was a scholastic thang, but it would be interesting to examine more closely.
I don't remember it from what we read of Boethius but it's been a long time since I've read him.
September 23 at 8:01pm · Like
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Brian Kemple John Deely has written about the issue piecemeal here and there (I think the longest treatment would be either in The Four Ages or Medieval Philosophy Redefined), but usually in the context of his arguing for his own proposed definition of the human being, "semiotic animal".
September 23 at 8:02pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Cooked bacon eating animal
September 23 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson consensual mating animal
September 23 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson smoking animal
September 23 at 8:04pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The laziest animal
September 23 at 8:05pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson ^these all suffice
September 23 at 8:05pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ashamed of its own body animal
September 23 at 8:05pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple Psh. According to a commercial I saw repeatedly on Sunday while chugging beer after beer, sitting on my couch, watching the Chiefs on my 40" TV, koalas sleep 18-22 hours a day. Now that's lazy.
September 23 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What other animal wants privacy when excreting fluids?
September 23 at 8:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson tNetting animal?
September 23 at 8:07pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson ^thats a contradiction. To be tNetting is to transcend animality completely and to be subsumed up into something wholistic and greater!
But this is disputed among the wise.
September 23 at 8:08pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson One potential problem with "rational animal" is how bifurcated it is.
For the whole might be greater than or substantially different than the parts.
September 23 at 8:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson dirty joke telling animal
September 23 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple tNetting sounds an awful lot like some sort of proto-transhumanist-singularity. Teilhard would be happy.
September 23 at 8:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #rationalanimalgnosis
September 23 at 8:11pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Could there be another "rational animal" (w/ animal said loosely)
September 23 at 8:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, either that or tNetting is a sign of inherent contradiction.
September 23 at 8:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You mean rational aliens? Yah, why not? It almost seems likely to me at this point.
September 23 at 8:13pm · Edited · Like
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Brian Kemple An extraterrestrial, corporeal critter who has possession of an intellect would by definition be a human.
September 23 at 8:14pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson To interact with such a creature would help us understand what intellect/reason/"rational" means.
September 23 at 8:17pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So many potential sci-fi novels going through my head...
September 23 at 8:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Makes me think of the Ender's Game series, actually.
September 23 at 8:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger to logon echon zoon. Ti esti logos;
September 23 at 8:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Many series get into this.
September 23 at 8:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The trads will want to slay the aliens as demons. You can count on that.
September 23 at 8:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Mad, alien hating trads.
September 23 at 8:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "Jesus didn't die for alpha centauri"
September 23 at 8:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger mad alien hating animal
September 23 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Trads are a different species.
September 23 at 8:27pm · Like
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Joel HF It makes me think of sci-fi novels too. Like that French guy who wrote all those science fiction books, Teilhard de something or another.
September 23 at 8:28pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger thank you^ ^ Brian
September 23 at 8:30pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I've always wanted to write one wherein Adam and Eve being locked out of the garden means being relegated to earth.
September 23 at 8:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What does it mean to be exiled from it? Flaming sword which turned every which way guarding it. Heh. Don't see that around in the Middle East or anywhere on earth, literalists.
September 23 at 8:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Read Efelheim, people.
September 23 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I argued, at TAC tongue in cheek, that whales must also be rational animals.
Note, in Genesis 1, two words are used, one rendered usually "make" and the other "create". God created the heavens and the earth. God made/formed the animals on land. God created man. God made the birds. But it also says God created the whales. Well the rational soul requires a special act of creation, and so rational animals cannot be simply made. Besides, we see that they are unfallen servants of od in Jonah. QED
The argument was not accepted strangely enough
September 23 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Aristotle does call man a social animal and a political animal. It seems to me that, while he didn't personally use the term rational animal, that is implied even here. How do we distinguish, e.g., the society that is an ant hive, or a wolf pack, from society as said of man? Or for that matter, being political as opposed to merely being united and having a rule amongst a group? Reason enters into the definition of these things.
September 23 at 8:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger He does call him the animal having reason in the politics. Logon echon. I want to say book one.
September 23 at 8:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger imitative animal in Poetics.
September 23 at 8:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, to be social and political implies reason. But what reason is is a tricky business, as is how, exactly, it enters into the notion of political man.
It seems more obvious and clear to say we are social or political. Reason enters into the definition of human beings as political, to be sure. But to say the political animal is more sure and readily understood.
September 23 at 8:51pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The question is what we mean when we say "rational." Discursive reason is one thing, and it is a mystery in itself when we really bear down on what it is and means.
But reason seems to mean a hell of a lot of things. Without some kind of self-awareness there is no reason of the sort we mean, no? Or - wait - but - heh. Disputes on every side.
September 23 at 8:53pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I'd answer what reason is, but that'd be a spoiler for my dissertation.
September 23 at 8:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger en arche en ho logos. . . . John 1.1
September 23 at 9:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger in principio erat Verbum
September 23 at 9:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^Word
September 23 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Do you have an abstract or proposal, Brian?
September 23 at 9:08pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Proposal is in the works, submitting a draft at the end of this week.
September 23 at 9:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Maybe we need Scott back to give us his #logosgnosis
September 23 at 9:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Politics 1253a. But he does speak differently of man in divers works. Logos means speech there.
September 23 at 9:41pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia If aliens came to Earth Peterson would make felt banners with them
#elmersgluegnosis
September 23 at 9:40pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia and teach them "on angels wings"
September 23 at 9:40pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill This banner over me is total domination
September 23 at 9:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Major premise: I have the technology to arrive your world unnoticed....
September 23 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jeff, you're not an alien, but a Californian (little difference)
September 23 at 9:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm from Irvine.
September 23 at 9:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It is more like the Borg, we assimilate.
September 23 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill You've heard of their popo right?
September 23 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have no clue what you're typing about
September 23 at 9:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol
September 23 at 9:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ok I'll drop it.
September 23 at 9:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is this a Star Trek next generation reference? WTH is popo?
September 23 at 9:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrjmeGKoR1E
Napoleon Dynamite - I don't understand a word you just said
YOUTUBE.COM
September 23 at 9:51pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No. Pray like the aliens would convert.
September 23 at 11:13pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But work like this:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/elJ3t6AOPJc?autoplay=1
ALIENS Robot Sentry Guns - Deleted Scenes
Delete Scenes: ALIENS (1986) This scene features the...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 23 at 11:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia would you at least teach them how high to raise a pseudopod for the responsorial? Show them how to give the tentacle of peace?
September 23 at 11:17pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger nonpseudopod raising rational animals
September 23 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But I don't think the Aliens in Aliens are rational creatures.
September 23 at 11:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia depends on what they burst out of. I saw Alien Resurrection in the theater with you, remember?
September 23 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "of what they burst out" damn dangling participle
September 23 at 11:30pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier The new translations of Aristotle, Descartes, and others change everything. There, that ought to keep the thread going!
September 23 at 11:31pm · Like · 3
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Richard Delahide Ferrier May I add, Joe Sachs ROCKS!
September 23 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Dr. Do tell.
September 23 at 11:35pm · Like
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Liz Neill Who is joe Sachs?
September 23 at 11:35pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier My old friend from SJC, and a fine translator.
September 23 at 11:36pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond He wrote an excellent commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.
September 23 at 11:37pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Kathleen Kathleen Wilson. Help a sister out
September 23 at 11:37pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Being-at-work-staying-itself! I love to irritate my colleagues with that one.
September 23 at 11:37pm · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_9...
Amazon Search
Online shopping from a great selection at Books Store.
AMAZON.COM
September 23 at 11:37pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Cheers! Thank you
September 23 at 11:38pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Though I have to give the nod to the Bartlett & Collins translation of the Nicomachean Ethics over Sachs'; the former is less awkward and more approachable for students.
September 23 at 11:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ^You've use it in class and approve, eh?
September 23 at 11:40pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I use both.
September 23 at 11:40pm · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple Yep. I think it was on your suggestion, too, so thanks.
September 23 at 11:40pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I use Sachs for myself, in conjunction, but it's difficult enough getting students to buy one translation of what I assign... and also getting the book store to actually place my orders.
September 23 at 11:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Richard Delahide Ferrier - both as in the Bartlett and Collins along with Sachs?
September 23 at 11:42pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier yes
September 23 at 11:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Good to know! I can't wait to have occasion to teach the Ethics.
September 23 at 11:43pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill The thread is awesome again!
September 23 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I am doing it now ... it is so rich and subtle ...
September 23 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Hah. Where are you now (in the Ethics)?
September 23 at 11:44pm · Edited · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Finishing book 2
September 23 at 11:44pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Bed
September 23 at 11:45pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Bless you, Liz!
September 23 at 11:46pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Kidding
September 23 at 11:46pm · Like
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Liz Neill Simple, simple child that I am.
September 23 at 11:46pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier k
September 23 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I'm bridging book 2 and 3.1-5. It's a lot to cover, but I used this book as an introduction, which summarily covers a lot of the issues--so I'm pinpointing the areas where Aristotle gives more nuanced and sophisticated reasoning about the mean, the voluntary/involuntary, and deliberation--though less so on the lattermost, because I'm also doing Aquinas on that, and I think he's better.
http://www.amazon.com/Living.../dp/0813221455/ref=sr_1_1...
September 23 at 11:47pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Thank you for the blessings dr f
September 23 at 11:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson To spend a whole semester teaching the Ethics! I hope your students love this opportunity, Richard Delahide Ferrier.
What's got their interest so far, and yours?
September 23 at 11:48pm · Like · 3
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Richard Delahide Ferrier tall order!
September 23 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier well, the way A. keeps offering a bit, and then changing it. The big tease about the idea of the Good.
September 23 at 11:51pm · Like · 4
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Richard Delahide Ferrier But most of all, the way happiness seems to depend on the Divine ... and yet, that A. won't go there ..
September 23 at 11:52pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Hahah. I love how Aristotle naturally ticks good students off.
September 23 at 11:52pm · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Bad students think he lays it all out, and even proves it all. They are objects of pity ...
September 23 at 11:53pm · Like · 6
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Richard Delahide Ferrier So, have I kept the thread going for a bit? If so, I have not lived in vain! lol.
September 23 at 11:56pm · Like · 11
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Matthew J. Peterson I was able to start my into to Am government at CMC this year with selections on democracy from the Politics. And I loved how a few students called out the back and forth dialectic of the treatise.
"But he says here that the many added together... but over here he says the many added together..."
September 24 at 12:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We are all extremely fortunate - extremely blessed - to have had such teachers as Richard Delahide Ferrier.
It takes many years to fully realize such things - how rare some people are. I can't believe what I took for granted as an undergraduate.
September 24 at 12:10am · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau I hated Junior philosophy (I don't blame the tutor -- but my immaturity). But my daughter is happy in your class Dr Richard Delahide Ferrier
September 24 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict One of the best arguments I ever had on campus was with Peter Schofield over whether or not Aristotle had pulled the wool over all our eyes concerning the idea of the Good. I believe we eventually agreed, after some hours and the coming and going of many temporary participants, that he was indeed a giant tease and that that was perfectly okay.
September 24 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I regret that I never had Dr. Ferrier as a tutor. I remember fondly the many spontaneous conversations on the smokers' patio.
September 24 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I had to quit smoking ...
September 24 at 12:44am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict And you have my prayers for your fortitude's endurance, good sir!
September 24 at 12:45am · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I do regret the way tobacco leads to good talk ...it's not for me anymore!
September 24 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund To me Sachs's English is a little too weird; like Heidegger's German, which I think it is imitating.
September 24 at 1:01am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Irritating?
September 24 at 1:02am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Isak: your Brian Jacques story is amazing.
September 24 at 1:03am · Like · 3
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I think H. has the Greek right.
September 24 at 1:04am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund There was a time when a new Redwall story coming out was a great event to me.
September 24 at 1:04am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict One of them formative moments. When the kid in front of me in line told Jacques his name was Derek, he just quipped "Desperate Derek" and signed his book.
September 24 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I got a sword.
September 24 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I felt special.
September 24 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But surely Sachs is good for getting people thinking, no? I would likely never assign one of his translations only in a class, but his translations are always essential for triangulation.
September 24 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund All time favorite use of the word "gobsmacked" was in the Guardian's brilliant 2010 video on the Tory Conference. It's at about 1:22: http://www.theguardian.com/.../conservative-party...
(You will like this Richard Delahide Ferrier and Matthew J. Peterson)
VIdeo: Conservative party conference: Are we all in this together? | John Harris
Harris's fringe: John Harris gauges the reaction to the...
THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY JOHN HARRIS
September 24 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Yes, I agree that Sachs is good for triangulation, but if one is only going to read one translation then Sachs is too weird.
September 24 at 1:07am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson By the way, Richard Delahide Ferrier:
"Tuesday, October 7, will be Harry Jaffa’s 96th birthday! There will be an open house at his home in Claremont that day (come on by when you can, it is an all-day event). If you cannot attend, he would certainly enjoy hearing from you. Send him a birthday card with some comments, or give him a call. Harry is no longer as physically strong as he once was, but his mind is as sharp as ever.
Address and phone # available upon request.
Pass the info on to others as appropriate; it would be nice to fill his house and mailbox, and make the day especially memorable."
September 24 at 1:10am · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I think I have done my part for tonight. Would you all please pray for me tonight, for my kidney disease? and also for Jeremy Holmes, and many others, who are not well?
September 24 at 1:13am · Edited · Like · 12
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Brian Kemple Sachs' account of the definition of motion is the best I've encountered; moreover, the etymologically-based translation of the key terminology does most definitely help someone get at the nitty-gritty all-too-often obfuscated by the nice and neat Scholastic terminology.
And it is in the line of Heidegger's thinking--Sachs takes it from Klein, who took it from Heidegger. Joseph Owens, particularly in his masterful bit of scholarship The Doctrine of Being in the Aristotelian Metaphysics, is also influential on his thinking.
September 24 at 1:11am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Many prayers Mr. Ferrier! For you and for Jeremy Holmes.
September 24 at 1:11am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If I could just write a review of a new Ethics translation for the NYT when I'm in my 90s...
http://www.nytimes.com/.../book-review-aristotles...
Book Review - Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics
A new translation of Aristotle’s “Ethics” addresses the...
NYTIMES.COM|BY BY HARRY V. JAFFA
September 24 at 1:12am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund (People need to watch the "gobsmacked" video; it's awesome).
September 24 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes. In prayer with much love and respect for Richard Ferrier et. al.
September 24 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Is CDK's dissertation in the collected works? (Seems a good a place as any to ask the question)
September 24 at 1:21am · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier May I say this? I am not worthy. I am just trying to follow the ... very tough ... text. I am not at all sure that it conforms to my [our] Faith.
September 24 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John, it is.
September 24 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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John Boyer Good. I was too lazy to go look on my bookshelves because they are very out of order right now.
September 24 at 1:27am · Like
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Edward Langley v.1, called something like "the Philosophy of Sir Arthur Eddington"
September 24 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 6 hours? Where's the night time (day time European) contingent?
September 24 at 7:33am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I just hope RDF doesn't run junior philosophy like it was ruined for me "let's go through this line by line"
September 24 at 8:31am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick It's dead...
September 24 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I apologize for dropping the ball on this.
September 24 at 10:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have been busy.
September 24 at 10:25am · Like
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Joel HF That gobsmacked video is priceless.
September 24 at 10:25am · Like · 2
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Joel HF So, homebirth--gross or the grossest?
September 24 at 10:26am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am just going to throw out a controversial position I hold to see if I can help things along.
September 24 at 10:26am · Like
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Joel HF ^Beat you to it.
September 24 at 10:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No, Joel! No!!
September 24 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I said controversial.
September 24 at 10:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not dangerous.
September 24 at 10:27am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I still hold that marriage is not properly speaking a vocation. It is only derivatively, so called.
September 24 at 10:27am · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF Why is there a mob of women waving pitchforks and torches outside my door?
September 24 at 10:28am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^doomed.
September 24 at 10:28am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele I feel like baiting aspiring mommy bloggers is the derivative vocation of tNET.
September 24 at 10:29am · Unlike · 7
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Michael Beitia home birth is fine. some of mine were born at home. no biggie
September 24 at 10:29am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think Catholics get way too hung up on "vocation" generally. I'd have to dig up the research I did, but even those about to enter the priesthood don't have a "vocation" until they are actually called during the ordination.
September 24 at 10:30am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Btw. I am serious. And not trying to bait.
September 24 at 10:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia The worst part was after my daughter was born, I had to empty out the inflatable pool myself....
September 24 at 10:30am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Or, such was my conclusion a few years back.
September 24 at 10:31am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sooooo gross!
September 24 at 10:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I agree with you, Joel.
September 24 at 10:31am · Like
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Michael Beitia gross? not really. just more to do
September 24 at 10:32am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But seriously, vocational discernment because such a means for psychological and emotional constipation.
September 24 at 10:38am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^And this is because most people misunderstand vocation.
September 24 at 10:39am · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Considering how fast things went with my first, I don't think I have an option not to have a home birth next time!
September 24 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I never understand when unmarried people say, "I have a vocation to the married state." Or, "God is calling me to marriage."
How on earth could one distinguish between "God's call," and natural inclinations?
Does a woman have a vocation to marry men in general?
September 24 at 10:45am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I think you're right Daniel. Vocation as call can only be named after the fact.
September 24 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The only vocation that is so called, simply, is the universal call to holiness, the perfect fulfillment of which is religious life.
September 24 at 10:55am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is why Aquinas can say that all are called to the religious life.
September 24 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Looks like everyone agrees with Daniel. On the other hand I raise truly controversial sayings. Just call me troll master.
September 24 at 11:00am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF On vocation: http://www.firstthings.com/.../love-god-and-do-what-you...
Love God and Do What You Will: Avoiding Over-Devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
September 24 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, I thought I'd get more push-back.
September 24 at 10:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I got a lot of flak over the same claim when I was at TAC.
September 24 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I thought I'd have hordes of women descending on me. Maybe I need to work on my trolling.
September 24 at 10:59am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--Of course, back then, you'd make the same points somewhat more ... controversially!
September 24 at 11:00am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ...
September 24 at 11:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman True.
September 24 at 11:01am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I also sang sweet tunes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri5k3VkmGPA
Man Faced Ox Progeny - The Longest Time
Short clip of Billy Joel's "The Longest Time" sung impromptu by TAC's barbershop quartet in 2004.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 24 at 11:02am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Trolling 101. #trollgnosis
September 24 at 11:08am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Has anyone else noticed that The Artist Formerly Known as Peregine is now trolling on the TAC Alum Facebook group?
September 24 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Nope.
September 24 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But I forgot we had one.
September 24 at 11:09am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yep...
September 24 at 11:10am · Like
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John Ruplinger Trolling 201. #Ultimatetrollgnosis
September 24 at 11:12am · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the PB is trolling the Alumni page right now in fact
September 24 at 11:22am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Heh. I just realized I never joined.
September 24 at 11:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am now a member!
September 24 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald Okay, I'll bite: maythis ease your boredom. I think that marriage can absolutely be called a vocation. As mentioned above, we are all called to holiness, but each life we choose is accompanied by different duties. A priest's duties are different from a wife's but both aspire to be closer to God. To discern one's vocation is to discern what duties you are must capable of fulfilling and to live a life succeeding in those duties chosen is to live your call to holiness: hence, vocation.
September 24 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Thank you for your courage Annette!
September 24 at 11:24am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Also, Daniel is correct more or less- the modern Christian usage of "vocation" for any craft, occupation, or state in life is a Lutheran usage originally, because we rejected (and still do reject) the idea that "religious life" is the perfection of a life of holiness; all licit modes of human life are "religious" for us. Modern Catholics have adopted our language without being very clear what they mean by it; Lendman's position is the traditional one.
September 24 at 11:25am · Edited · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Actually, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I would only point out that that is a derivative use of the term.
September 24 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^By "you" I meant Annette.
September 24 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Though I agree with you too, Jehoshaphat.
September 24 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald Well, I would argue that "any craft, occupation, or state" is not necessarily vocational because not every craft or occupation is necessarily spiritual.
September 24 at 11:28am · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Annette, that would just beg the question, and restate the fact of the Protestant/Catholic difference
September 24 at 11:28am · Like
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Annette FitzGerald I thought the question broached was whether marriage is vocational, and, if so is it vocational in the narrower Catholic sense, or only in the broader sense.
September 24 at 11:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger Controversy: "Daniel is too agreeable. Is it really him or an FBbot.?"
September 24 at 11:32am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante in the traditional Catholic view, marriage is vocational because sacramental, but not in the plenary sense that religious life is
September 24 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I dont think so, formerly known as JA. Vocation is strictly a call to leave ALL for the kingdom of God.
September 24 at 11:35am · Like
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Annette FitzGerald I don't think the single life could be called sacramental, yet it still can be vocational for Catholics. Would it not follow then that vocation and sacrament are, at least to some degree, separate subjects?
September 24 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Marriage is a sacrament. Religious life is not. It is a call from God. God does not "call" people to marriage. Concupiscence often leaves that calling card as Lendman noted above. Good question: when was marriage first called a vocation among Catholics?
September 24 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante John I think marriage is secondarily vocational in RC thought nowadays at least. And Jesus called Peter, but Peter remained married, so I don't think your definition quite works
September 24 at 11:43am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick It's only very very recently that people call the single life a vocation. . .
September 24 at 11:44am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and it seems like a cop out [ducks]
September 24 at 11:44am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia unless we're using "vocation" analogously to "for the greater glory of God". then it is so watered down in meaning that it becomes meaningless
September 24 at 11:45am · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Tonsure is a sacrament in the East, and this is probably the more consistent position
September 24 at 11:46am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I do laundry "for the greater glory of God"
September 24 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I swear for the greater glory of God.
September 24 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I feel called to smoke a cigarette, is that my vocation for the next 10 minutes?
September 24 at 11:47am · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia "Michael?"
"here I am Lord"
"go smoke"
September 24 at 11:48am · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante YES
September 24 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger JA, I only asked your question in different words. When did we start watering down vocation?
September 24 at 11:49am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick probably the 60s (because that's when everything happens)
September 24 at 11:50am · Like · 3
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Annette FitzGerald So we're back to marriage being vocational in-so-far as it comes with its own duties within the general call to holiness. I don't know whether that is a watered down view, but I'll concede it is a broader one.
September 24 at 11:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger Michael, you may lack the the gift of discernment of voices. just saying. not that i dont smoke too. Incense in the temple of the Holy Spirit. . . . .
September 24 at 11:52am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. Marriage is a vocation in a derivative sense.
September 24 at 11:54am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Being single is in no way a vocation.
September 24 at 11:55am · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger analogous or equivocal? ^ 2 UP
September 24 at 11:57am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah... I think that one could say that it is analogous.
September 24 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante See! I am the oracle of RC orthodoxy. Thanks Daniel
September 24 at 12:00pm · Like · 4
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Annette FitzGerald I though that the single life could referred to as vocational when a single person uses the freedom of not being committed to either spouse or church in order to devote himself to others in ways that neither priest or married person could. Going back to duties within the call to holiness.
September 24 at 12:02pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^purely equivocal?
September 24 at 12:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The problem is, "being single" is not a state.
September 24 at 12:05pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger It is not a dig on singles to say they don't have a vocation . . . . like a religious.
September 24 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald Still, it seems unsatisfying to entirely rule out single life as being without vocation...
September 24 at 12:10pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think it can be if you're a consecrated single...
September 24 at 12:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think the problem with understanding vocational in any way other than sacramental opens up a whole hoard of watered-down 'meanings'
September 24 at 12:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is an in between and imperfect life. There can be no state of life without some sort of vow.
September 24 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger much better than getting left out of the kingdom of heaven altogether, Anette. Our dissatisfaction is an effect of living in an egalitarian society. " But i want the right to have a baby" syndrome. We are not all equal in every respect.
September 24 at 12:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Vocation does not pertain to the permissive will of God.
September 24 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it is also the "state" of life that everyone is born into. there is no change in state from infancy onward
September 24 at 12:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "it" being single
September 24 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Daniel, did you say all were called to the religious life above?
September 24 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald No, I'm not thinking as an egalitarian. I'm thinking in terms of devotion. I think there is a place for the unique positioning of a single person within the call to holiness. Someone who purposely remains single lives a life of devotion different from that of a married person or a priest, and takes on different spiritual duties. Does that not suggest room for some other category of vocation?
September 24 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--what of those who vow to remain single? One doesn't *necessarily* enter an order.
September 24 at 12:24pm · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald Precisely.
September 24 at 12:25pm · Like
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Joel HF Of course, I think a "vocation" only exists properly for priests after they have been "called" at ordination. But I can't find any of the stuff I wrote on it, and I've completely forgotten my argument.
September 24 at 12:27pm · Unlike · 5
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John Ruplinger It is a feel good watered down thing. Everyone is as good as everyond. We are all just as good as each other. No one feels left out. That's how i see it. Anti-elitism. But striving for holiness is by its nature elitist just as the religious vocation is by its nature higher.
September 24 at 12:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger single vows are good. Just not a religious vocation.
September 24 at 12:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Annette, I agree with all you say above except calling it vocation.
September 24 at 12:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger See, Joel agrees with me too (except that religious life has always been considered a vocation).
September 24 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia except tonsure was not considered sacramental (in the West)
September 24 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like
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Annette FitzGerald I am by no means arguing from a "first place for all" standpoint, and I think I agree with you in saying that only ordained priests devote themselves to religious life in the true sense, and, consequently, their lives are the proper definition of "vocation". However God does call us all, and based on our path in life we serve him in different ways. Again, I concede a broader use of "vocation", but not that it is necessarily watered down.
September 24 at 12:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not budging on watered down.
September 24 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia holy orders:broad sense vocation :: private fb message: posting on tNET
#ratiognosis
September 24 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia maybe it is bad analogy time:
priesthood:broad sense vocation::limo:bus
September 24 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger To be clear. I do not like using the word vocation in this way. The religious life (esp the contemplative) is denigrated and misunderstood. Most have no idea what it is nor its importance for the Church and the good of the state.
September 24 at 12:44pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
September 24 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, one does not need to be in an order to be a religious.
September 24 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia narrow sense vocation:broad sense vocation::personal chef:buffet table
September 24 at 12:47pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia bad analogy hour is much better than pun til you puke hour
September 24 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I once was talking to John Nieto about this question at his house as we were drinking fine scotch, smoking cigars, having just finished a couple bottles of wine and a nice meal, and he pointed around his house and said, "You think this is a vocation?!?!"
September 24 at 12:49pm · Unlike · 7
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Daniel Lendman #anecdotetime ^
September 24 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #anecdotegnosis
September 24 at 12:49pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Sure, they used to call diocesan priests "secular priests" (and that may still be the proper name for them). But I was thinking of something like Msgr. Knox who vowed to be celibate as a young man--of course, he wasn't Catholic at the time. He wasn't in an order or even a priest, had he lived out his life (and been Catholic) I'd be willing to call that a derivative vocation.
September 24 at 12:50pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I am lucky to attend mass and receive direction at a monastery. So i see its effects first hand. I became aware most especially of them when reading the life of Sister Mariana.
September 24 at 12:52pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--many a Jesuit has lived in nicer digs while enjoying fine scotch and cigars.
September 24 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think the scriptures are clear: single life>married life. Vocation does seem to be something different, strictly speaking, since a priest could be married.
September 24 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Priesthood is not by nature a vocation.
September 24 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Strictly speaking, Priesthood is a vocation derivatively.
September 24 at 12:55pm · Like
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Joel HF What's a vocation then?
September 24 at 12:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Although, it is strange because being a bishop is a vocation.
September 24 at 12:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A vocation is a call by God to holiness.
September 24 at 12:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or, to perfection.
September 24 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I also read the lives of the early Jesuits at Marquette. They lived poverty while enjoying the ocassional cigar. The traditional Jesuit was the greatest ascetic . . . . without appearing to be so. . . . St. Anthony Marie Claret's autobiography gives good insight into Jesuit virtue.
September 24 at 12:59pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF In support of Daniel Lendman: http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../theology-of-vocations/
Theology of vocations
(Since we had lots on this in the past, might as well keep adding stuff): Some eminently sensible stuff in Hilary...
EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM
September 24 at 1:01pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson Daniel, I'm agreement with you about marriage, re: calling it a vocation. And I don't think the regular single life is a vocation. But in my mind the priesthood is, in fact, a vocation in the full sense. What's your reason for saying it is derivative?
September 24 at 1:03pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is still room for use of the term "vocation" as a discernment of duties toward the goal of committing one's life to growing closer to God. Perhaps a lesser meaning than applying the term to priests who are the ones truly committed to religious life, but not in the meaningless way that a secular person might call "teaching" a vocation. "Vocation" as just "something I do or how I live" is what I would call watered down.
September 24 at 1:04pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I'd also be interested to know people's thoughts about the priesthood and the religious life. They are usually listed as different "vocations", yet often (not always, of course) religious are ordained. Is this a strange crossover between states of life?
September 24 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I've been called to a vacation vocation.
September 24 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joel, THANKS for the link. I think it answers a lot of questions and dispels confusion.
September 24 at 1:08pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald The watered-down vocation of a water-park vacation?
September 24 at 1:09pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ha^
September 24 at 1:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about vocational school?
September 24 at 1:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia called to fix the plumbing
September 24 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Sean, see Joel's link for what a priestly vocation is. Makes sense of your question i think.
September 24 at 1:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Many vocation centers are in India, but nothing can hide the accent.
September 24 at 1:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger shit vocation
September 24 at 1:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger holy sh*t
September 24 at 1:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger sanctification of . . .
September 24 at 1:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I do enjoy the religious/non-religious distinction in diocesan priests vs religious priests. But it would seem that both are proper vocations. As for the "single vocation" that is not the colloquial "confirmed bachelor"
September 24 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . would that be a second or third class relic?
September 24 at 1:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel, "Priesthood is not by nature a vocation."
Isn't it the case that no one is made a priest unless chosen by the Church? That, to me, seems to be what is definitive of a vocation: the Church picks you to serve her through a public act (ordination, in the case of priests).
September 24 at 1:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ see Joel's link
September 24 at 1:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger religious vocation= picked by God
priestly vocation = picked by Church
September 24 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Those don't differ.
September 24 at 1:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley The way God picks us in this life is through His Church.
September 24 at 1:29pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Ummm they do differ because of free will not? . . .
September 24 at 1:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley ?
September 24 at 1:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^see link. I just follow the magisterium. They do differ Edward.
September 24 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill So, can you improperly live your life if you have a religious vocation but get married?
September 24 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Basically the Church can ordain priests .... Baby crying...
September 24 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John Ruplinger, I don't see what you see in that link: all I see there is a denial that the priestly vocation is an interior call.
September 24 at 1:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which I am not disputing.
September 24 at 1:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that once you're married, you can be sure that being married is what God wants you to do (and probably what he always wanted you to do).
September 24 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, I just think it's silly to think "I had a religious vocation but decided to get married".
September 24 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ^wrong
September 24 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley ^wrong
September 24 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Fr. Lahitton was denounced to the Holy Office for his book, but the Holy Office’s response endorsed his claim: here it is.
‘The book of the eminent man Joseph Canon Lahitton, “La Vocation Sacerdotale.” is in no way to be reprobated, but rather is is deserving of outstanding praise in the following points: (1) that no one has a right to ordination antecedently to the free choice of him by the bishop; (2) that the condition to whcih the Ordinary should look, and which is called a priestly vocation, by no means consists, at all events necessarily and as a general rule, in some interior aspiration of the subject or in impulses of the Holy Spirit to receive the priesthood; (3) but, on the contrary, nothing more is required in the candidate that he may rightly be invited by the bishop, than a right intention together with a fitness based on those gifts of nature and grace, and confirmed by that goodness of life and sufficiency of learning, that afford a well-founded hope, that he would be able rightly to fulfill the priestly duties and maintain its obligations holily. – AAS 4 (1912), 485"
September 24 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I should note that, even in the religious life, whether one makes final vows is not up to the aspiring religious: in the Dominicans, for example, he must be "elected" unanimously by the members of the house.
September 24 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger The link points out that a priestly vocation is derivatively so (God choosing through the Church OR hierarchy choosing by God's permissive will). Religious vocation is properly so called and discerned with guidance.
September 24 at 1:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see any evidence for such a distinction in the link.
September 24 at 1:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I don't think the decision to become a religious is a matter of one's own choice: rather, one is chosen for the religious life by being allowed to make final vows (or, perhaps, through becoming a consecrated virgin with the permission of the bishop).
As far as I can tell, the cases are perfectly analogous.
September 24 at 1:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Edward your above notion on vocation amounts to saying i am called to what i am because that is what i choose.
September 24 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, there is no vocation to the married life, because the married life is part of the course of nature. There is a vocation to the priesthood/religious life because Church authorities must choose you to follow those lives.
September 24 at 1:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That is certainly a danger, Edward Langley.
September 24 at 1:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, that is a tempting position, and one I held for a long time.
September 24 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My problem, finally, with the position is that it ends up confusing the notion of vocation as traditionally held. And makes a muddle of things that ought to be distinct.
September 24 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How?
September 24 at 1:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Your absurd statement was that a person could not miss their vocation.
September 24 at 1:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman As far as I can tell, the classic notion of vocation is a call by God to holiness/perfection. Such a call is co-extensive with the religious life.
The priesthood, is not necessarily co-extensive with a life of perfection.
September 24 at 1:52pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^But the episcopate is.
September 24 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "The priesthood, is not necessarily co-extensive with a life of perfection."
What do you mean by that?
September 24 at 1:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For example, a priest can be married.
September 24 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In the West, typically a priest is compelled to effectively live a life of perfection.
September 24 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But that is not necessary to his priesthood.
September 24 at 1:54pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That just means that he isn't called to a certain perfection, though,
September 24 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't understand.
September 24 at 1:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Vocation is a call to perfection, simply.
September 24 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I.e. a perfect living out of the evangelical counsels.
September 24 at 1:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley There also was a common practice of people becoming religious after their children could support themselves.
September 24 at 1:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Thus why Aquinas can say that everyone is called to the religious life.
September 24 at 1:56pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Obviously, (and according to your own statements) not everyone is called to the priesthood.
September 24 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward, that makes my point.
September 24 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, you're saying that ordinarily everyone has a vocation?
September 24 at 1:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley I guess I'd grant that, insofar as vocation names a call to holiness, but that seems to stand to vocation in the proper sense like "animal" common to man and brute stands to "animal" proper to brutes.
September 24 at 1:59pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Edward, not quite. All other states of life that are derivatively called vocation are ordered to the state of perfection as to their end. Marriage, and Priesthood should terminate in a perfect living out of the evangelical counsels, either in this life or the next.
September 24 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think using "vocation" and "calling" indiscriminately as opposed to specific technical language is confusing. The entire above discussing seems to be just nailing down terms.
September 24 at 2:04pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman We can, therefore, speak of a vocation to the religious life in an analogous sense because here we mean, "Not only am I called to live the state of perfection, but God has given me the grace to enter into the state of perfection, now.
September 24 at 2:04pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Daniel--in further support of your position, recall St. John Vianney's tears at the thought that he would not be able to perfect himself as a secular priest. I seem to recall that he even attempted to flee his parish to a monastery on a few occasions.
September 24 at 2:07pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Its all making sense now. #vocationgnosis
September 24 at 2:07pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I think many of the Church fathers felt similarly to Vianney even about being Bishops--they wanted to be hermits, and had to be forced (by mobs!) to accept the episcopacy.
September 24 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't think that proves anything.
September 24 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It seems like a call to a particular perfection in this life is co-extensive with the priesthood and similarly with the actual religious life and so both of those lives are vocations in the strict sense.
September 24 at 2:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley The fact that certain perfections, such as celibacy or poverty or whatever, don't attach to certain states doesn't make the call to either state any less a call to perfection.
September 24 at 2:13pm · Like
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Joel HF Merely illustrative. The main point is that Catholics tie themselves up in knots unnecessarily. People think they have to "discern their vocation" as if they were Samuel and God was going to directly tell them their life's aim in the middle of the night.
September 24 at 2:14pm · Unlike · 8
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY
September 24 at 2:16pm · Like
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Joel HF #vocationgnosis
September 24 at 2:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, you are going backwards
September 24 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How so? I've conceded that the universal call to holiness is a vocation, but I've always held that it's only such per posterius.
September 24 at 2:20pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Which is backwards.
September 24 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is vocation per prius.
September 24 at 2:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see any evidence for that.
September 24 at 2:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Edward is confusing me
September 24 at 2:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You mean besides the arguments given and the tradition and history of the Church?
September 24 at 2:22pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I don't see an argument given that decides the question either way. And, I'm probably not familiar enough with the tradition of the Church.
September 24 at 2:23pm · Like
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Joel HF If only we had learned at college from the full datum of magesterium and dogma. #perescott_gnosis
September 24 at 2:27pm · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman I suppose one could just look at who is doing the calling?
One is called to holiness through Baptism, by God. There is no external call to holiness.
With marriage, my wife called me to marriage until death before God.
In Priesthood, the Bishop calls a man to service until death before God.
In the case of marriage and priesthood certainly one would expect God to be influencing and gracing the decisions. But the decisions and calls are, in the end, human.
September 24 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Does this make sense Edward?
September 24 at 2:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley "He who hears you hears me". I deny that one can distinguish the call of the Church and the call of God.
September 24 at 2:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially when we're dealing with things narrowly inside the sacramental order.
September 24 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Really?
September 24 at 2:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, when a Bishop ordains a man to the priesthood, that man is infallibly a good and worthy candidate?
September 24 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley At least in this case: when the bishop ordains, he ordains as a minister of Christ.
September 24 at 2:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am not denying that.
September 24 at 2:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley "So, when a Bishop ordains a man to the priesthood, that man is infallibly a good and worthy candidate?"
Well a person being baptized isn't infallibly a "good and worthy candidate" either, especially in adult Baptisms.
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or is the decision to ordain, rather, a matter of prudence, hopefully guided by the Holy Spirit..
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Ah see. There's the difference.
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But the Church leaders CAN make mistakes in whom they elect for priesthood. CF. Pius X 's many warnings.
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I did not talk about those who are called to Baptism.
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I spoke of the call of holiness that comes to us through Baptism.
September 24 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger late to comment
September 24 at 2:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The call to holiness that happens in Baptism is an interior call to perfection by God directly.
September 24 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Just as the Church can call people improperly to Baptism .
September 24 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure, but that seems to be an extension of the use of the word "vocation".
September 24 at 2:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The interior call by God is an extension?
September 24 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially given the contents of Joel's link.
September 24 at 2:36pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wouldn't God's proper call be said per prius.
September 24 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Just as everything is said per prius of God?
September 24 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yes, the word "vocation" is imposed by us and that from which it is imposed is more particular.
September 24 at 2:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am starting to think that you don't really hold the position you are representing Edward.
September 24 at 2:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Just as everything is said per prius of God?"
"Unde, secundum hoc, dicendum est quod, quantum ad rem significatam per nomen, per prius dicuntur de Deo quam de creaturis, quia a Deo huiusmodi perfectiones in creaturas manant. Sed quantum ad impositionem nominis, per prius a nobis imponuntur creaturis, quas prius cognoscimus. Unde et modum significandi habent qui competit creaturis, ut supra dictum est."
September 24 at 2:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley According to the imposition of the name "vocation" first refers to the religious/priestly life and then, by extension, to the universal call to holiness.
According to the thing signified, the universal call to holiness is first.
September 24 at 2:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Big news everyone!! I have been excommunicated by Pope Peregrine and now join the ranks of those in exile from the rays of his warm, benevolent light.
September 24 at 2:41pm · Like · 10
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John Ruplinger blocked?
September 24 at 2:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger that is what you get for leaving the confines of tNET.
September 24 at 2:45pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Anyways, back to reading Scotus criticizing Divine Illumination
September 24 at 2:46pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald Danial, I need some terms clarified: are you thinking of "religious life" as synonymous with "contemplative life"? Also, do you hold that "being called to the religious life" refers to those who join holy orders, or, more narrowly, to ordained priests, or are you saying that "the call to religious life" and the "general call to holiness" are one and the same?
September 24 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Yeah Lendman, define your terms.
September 24 at 2:48pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Isak, you're just a jerk who wants to look like the smartest guy in the room, remember?
September 24 at 2:49pm · Like · 5
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Sam Rocha defend, I mean, *define* your worms.
September 24 at 2:49pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger holy orders are not religious life.
September 24 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia defunded in Worms?
September 24 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald Worms in weeds.
September 24 at 2:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger religious is "bound (by vows) to live the evangelical counsels."
September 24 at 2:53pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund Perfection consists essentially in charity; the Evangelical counsels are only particularly suitable means.
September 24 at 2:54pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley "'verum' importat respectum ad exemplar. Igitur intellectus potest cognoscere intentionem entis, licet non cognoscat ipsam veritatem et conformitatem; et per consequens, ipsum quod verum est, potest cognosci antequam cognoscatur veritas."
"'Truth' implies relation to an exemplar. Therefore, the intellect can know the intention of being, although it does not know its truth and conformity; and, consequently, that which is true can be known before the truth is known."
September 24 at 2:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger wyrm= 4 legged rational animal with wings that hordes gold.
September 24 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Vocation has basically three meanings: 1) vocation to the Christian life universal and obligatory; 2) vocation to the Evangelical counsels which is universal but not obligatory (that's why the are called _counsels_; 3) vocation to a particular ecclesiastical office such as bishop of Chicago which is not universal at all, but particular to a particular person who is called.
September 24 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Dom Dellatte is really good on this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/77620033/Delatte-on-Vocation
Delatte on Vocation
a section from ch. LVIII of Dom Paul Delatte, O.S.B.'s Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict
SCRIBD.COM
September 24 at 2:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^the link linker strikes again
September 24 at 3:00pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald So 1)=general call to holiness; 2)=devotion to religious life; 3)=a specific ordination?
September 24 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Is this slowing down yet?
September 24 at 3:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Thanks Pater, since Lendman wouldn't do it....
September 24 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm gonna say yes.
September 24 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe http://humility.slu.edu/blog/do-not-think-for-yourself.html
September 24 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Do not think for yourself!
September 24 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb Cohoe's first blog post! Go read it so we can fight about it!
September 24 at 3:03pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia oooooh! More to argue about.
September 24 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger HE'S WRONG
September 24 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Did you read it yet, John?
September 24 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald What we live for!
September 24 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm annoyed that my link didn't expand.
September 24 at 3:08pm · Like
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Pater Edmund It's only slowed down because people are reading the stuff we linked.
September 24 at 3:09pm · Like · 5
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Annette FitzGerald The terms seem clear so there's not much more to say...
September 24 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're so charmingly optimistic, Pater.
September 24 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Hey, Caleb works with Elenore Stump? Give her my love. (She hated a paper I once did at a conference... or at least my answer to a question on suffering).
September 24 at 3:11pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Pater-- what conference and what was the substance of your answer on suffering?
September 24 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm reading the linked items because I'm procrastinating about studtying for class .
September 24 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund She's a lovely person though.
September 24 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, she is lovely. Her husband knew right away where Una's name was from.
September 24 at 3:13pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund We knew her at Notre Dame too, she even remembered me, and corrected me more in sorrow than in anger.
September 24 at 3:14pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund It was a conference on Creation Order organized by the Calvinists in Amsterdam.
September 24 at 3:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, if she really knows who you are, then I will give her your love. That will be fun.
September 24 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 2 dicta: think on whom to trust AND [my correction:] trust no one
September 24 at 3:21pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia can't read it. the typesetting is off center. OCD won't allow it
September 24 at 3:15pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But yeah. He's right.
September 24 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sigh. The site is run by a grad student.
September 24 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe just scroll your browser over, Michael
September 24 at 3:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley tNET's typesetting is off center.
September 24 at 3:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Cant read Father's link. Ok because i achieved #vocationgnosis already
September 24 at 3:18pm · Like
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Pater Edmund The question was about the violence of evolution. This was the substance of my answer: http://thomism.wordpress.com/.../the-death-wish-in.../...
September 24 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe reading...what did she hate about it?
September 24 at 3:20pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Scott/Peregrine has raised his head in the TAC Alumni group. Guess what the topic of contention is? https://www.facebook.com/groups/2200569229/10152560847859230/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
Scott WeinbergThomas Aquinas College Alumni
In his Sept. 2014 lecture, Dr. Goyette seems spot on in regards to St. Thomas's view of St. Paul on Faith; however, he seems to present only a very narrow view ...
See More
Lecture Audio: “St. Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking Understanding” |...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 24 at 3:21pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund The idea that physical evil might be in anyway necessary: "Have you ever seen an animal suffering?"
September 24 at 3:22pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger heresy?
September 24 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm confused. She literally wrote the book on why physical evil is necessary.
September 24 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And she doesn't address animal suffering.
September 24 at 3:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ...I don't think...
September 24 at 3:25pm · Like
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Pater Edmund OK, maybe not "in any way," but she objected to my defending Chastek's claim that materiality implies a certain necessity to coming to be and passing away. She thought my position Maimonidean. I subsequently modified my position a bit.
September 24 at 3:27pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I have to go sleep now though, just give her my love and don't remind her of how sad my Marmonidean positions made her.
September 24 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund #TrueVocationGnosis: http://www.scribd.com/doc/77620033/Delatte-on-Vocation
Delatte on Vocation
a section from ch. LVIII of Dom Paul Delatte, O.S.B.'s Commentary on the Rule of Saint Benedict
SCRIBD.COM
September 24 at 3:29pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Good night thread.
September 24 at 3:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia bonne nuit
See Translation
September 24 at 3:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha, tNET is the center, and Edward, it runs down the center on my screen.
September 24 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Pater, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPbxIT9W1AY
Mozart, Eine kleine Nachtmusik KV 525 Karl Bohm, Wiener Philharmoniker
YOUTUBE.COM
September 24 at 3:34pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Samantha Cohoe Michael, are you really OCD or are you just trying to annoy me?
September 24 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But Samantha, how do you know whom to trust?
September 24 at 3:37pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Dang, now the alumni group is not safe....
September 24 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger can't be trusted
September 24 at 3:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, that's a good question, of course. Caleb's planning a paper on that as well. But in general, the community with the most expertise on a given subject is the first place to start.
September 24 at 3:45pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia my books at home are in Dewey decimal order. You tell me
September 24 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ...sounds legit
September 24 at 3:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia good thing I'm not allowed in the alumni group. but Perescott is..... hmm......
September 24 at 3:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia and he blocked me again, although we've had no dealing since he banished tNET into the outer darkness.
September 24 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe How does one know if one has been blocked?
September 24 at 3:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia type a name into the facebook search bar. if it comes up, you're not
September 24 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not. I feel a little left out.
September 24 at 3:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia easy to remedy.....
September 24 at 3:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I posted to ignore him but people are always sucked into the sophism.
September 24 at 3:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Trust gets tougher once the experts are wrong. . . . you know Plato's cave and all.
September 24 at 3:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeff, I kind of miss the sophism, but I can't see him at any rate
September 24 at 3:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sure, the experts could be wrong, but the question is whether you are in an epistemic position to judge rightly if they are or not.
September 24 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Chances are, you're not.
September 24 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I can't see Kenz. Which is weird in the evening version of tnet when the flatlanders all sleep.
September 24 at 3:54pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger i have the #gnosis though
September 24 at 3:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger #beyondepistemegnosis
September 24 at 3:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger gnosis > episteme
September 24 at 4:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Beitia, his diatribes are long and inviting, if it wasn't on the road to nowhere, you would be tempted to engage a discussion.
September 24 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Sample of PB in the alumni group: "So, let me just complete my thoughts here, before I get kicked off. I am a TAC alum. I thank God I was unable to graduate from TAC because I am a mere poet with low IQ. But this question I am asking, and it is a very simple question, and I have asked this question before... it seems this question would have a very simple answer, but no answer has been given.
If TAC does not present the full datum of sacred theology in its study of sacred theology, but says it engages its students in sacred theology, this is a bit like a biologist, who only studies onions, saying that biology is the study of onions.
A perfectly reasonable answer to this question would be to say that TAC certainly recognizes that Dogma, Tradition and Scripture are the datum of the study of sacred theology. And we certainly encourage this study. But we present a mere introduction, for lack of time, and we encourage our students to study it all further; but in the time we have, we have decided to present the model of St. Thomas Aquinas; for he is indeed a model. He is the angelic doctor.
But this response, however reasonable and adequate, is not the response TAC seems to give to this question. Instead, TAC seems to give a quite different response. It presents this limited model as a representation of the whole, and presents it as the best and exemplar of sacred theology and approach to the Catholic Faith. As a result, many of its students, especially more recently, seem highly confused about what the Catholic Faith is. They view it as something that begins and ends according to the form of the TAC curriculum, with reason, leading up to the study of Saint Thomas. But this approach is not the beginning of Faith, nor is it what Faith is. On the contrary, the beginning of Faith is assent to grace and revelation. "Assent" is more than an act of the will over the intellect. It is not the will over-riding the intellect (some TAC alum have described this approach as "having doctrine crammed down one's throat"). Assent is a reasonable act of the will, an act of love, to the principles of Faith: Revelation, Dogma, Tradition.
But TAC does not view it like this, it seems. Instead it teaches that "faith seeking understanding" is an act of acquiring the liberal arts so we can examine the datum of theology in a syllogism. In addition to this approach, which is contrary to how the Catholic world views "faith seeking understanding" -- reasonable assent -- TAC also teaches in its Charter that the entirety of Western Academia is a tyranny of freedom.
No wonder TAC graduates find it difficult to obtain tenure.
Samuel A Schmitt, the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture is the stuff of sacred theology. So, Dogma is necessary for sacred theology. You can present Dogma in a catechetical way; or you can present Dogma in a theological way. My question is, how many Dogmas does TAC present in a theological way?"
September 24 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ Dangers of thinking for yourself and the need for trusting the right authority.
September 24 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think the blog post could be used as a excellent justification for cults.
September 24 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick ^^ouch!
See Translation
September 24 at 5:07pm · Like
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Thomas Hall I sense that The Thread has slowed down considerably, as though even It cannot attain Perpetual Motion.
September 24 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- have you overcome your OCD enough to actually read the post?
September 24 at 5:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I came home from "work" and moved my chair in front of the computer to the right....
September 24 at 5:15pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia so, short answer, yes
September 24 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok. I can see cults misappropriating the arguments to support conformity, but since they don't have actual claims to epistemic authority, the arguments don't actually apply to them
September 24 at 5:16pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, I noticed, above, that you associated having a state in life with making a vow. This is wrong.
For public vows are taken by those married, and those who enter what were formerly called religious orders, as opposed to congregations. Sisters, brothers and secular priests do not take vows (though, since the 1917 CIC, distinguished congregation from orders purely on whether vows were taken, rather than the older, and you can never leave them principle, many congregations petitioned to take vows.)
By your reasoning, most priests and bishops aren't in a "state of life" since they do not take vows.
September 24 at 5:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia secondly, though this isn't fatal, no one chooses into what sort of family/social group they are born. I assume most children growing up trust their social group. So I suppose this seems like reducing belief to an accident of location.
But then again, if I trust my family, my political acquaintances, and the Fuhrer, what could possibly go wrong?
September 24 at 5:28pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Oh, and it seems readily apparent that vocation implies a call to something, not already given in nature, but as it were above, or even at the expense of nature. Celibacy e.g. The religious life or the priesthood (and the vocation to the priesthood within the religious life is fundamentally different than the secular priesthood)..
I might very loosely call my occupation my vocation, as something superadditive to the general inclination of nature. But a vocation does imply a state of life, a call to be this sort of person, not merely to do this thing. And it would be most proper to restrict the term to the order of grace, even if, in His providence, I can speak of Him calling me to say teach.
Marriage would not itself be a vocation. It is wrong to too distinguish sacramental from natural marriages. Any valid marriage between two Christians is also sacramental. Whence, would we speak of two Hindus having a marital vocation? How about a Catholic who marries a Hindu, that is not a sacrament, but it is a real marriage...but if he becomes baptised, does it suddenly become a vocation?
So either we call marriage a vocation and use vocation for any call, even not connected with grace, or we restrict it to the sacrament, and have weird things like being married and that not being a vocation and then it becoming a vocation.
But there is this, in sacramental marriage, there is a further end, of raising children for the kingdom of God, and I suppose one can have a special inclination to that, and that would be in the order of grace. But it wouldn't be qua marriage, but qua sacramental marriage. So I guess I agree with Lendman other than his point about vows....
September 24 at 5:30pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe making dinner. be back later.
September 24 at 5:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Solo fide.
September 24 at 5:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger epistemic authority is sounding creepier and creepier. How do I get on that commitee? Any weird rituals involved?
September 24 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Samantha is Una's name from the story of the Red Cross Knight?!?!
September 24 at 6:02pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #faeriequeengnosis
September 24 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict By the way - doesn't blocking usually work the other way around? The troll gets people to block him, the troll does not block.
September 24 at 6:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^masochists and voyeurs. They like watching trolls. It beats bunnies.
September 24 at 6:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Where were you being excommunicated by his magisterialness, Isak Benedict?
September 24 at 6:34pm · Like
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Jeff Neill This is too wonderful not to share, Linked below is a rewriting of Harry Potter as a Christian story so that your children do not become witches: retitled "Hogwart's School of Prayer and Miracles". https://m.fanfiction.net/s/10644439/1/
Hogwarts School of Prayer and Miracles ) Chapter 1, a harry potter fanfic | FanFiction
Author's Note: Hello, friends! My name is Grace Ann. I'm new to this whole fanfiction thing; but recently, I've encountered a problem that I believe this is the solution to. My little ones have been asking to read the Harry Potter books; and of course I'm happy for them to be reading; but I don't wa…
FANFICTION.NET
September 24 at 6:48pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Joel HF, I could tell because some folks were responding to invisible comments by him on Jeffrey Bond's status. Before that he was being a jerk on my profile picture haha
September 24 at 7:13pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia that's how I figured it out too... someone responded to him on Jeffrey's status on The Laws.
September 24 at 7:30pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- yes!
September 24 at 7:34pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- Caleb isn't advocating blind faith in whoever you happen to grow up with. Merely growing up under a certain authority doesn't actually give you reason to have trust in it. Quite the reverse can be true. A bad authority will give you lots of reasons for distrust over time. This was certainly the case for me.
September 24 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia going drinkin
September 24 at 7:37pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe and John, all I mean by "epistemic authority" is a person or community who have a lot of expertise or wisdom on a certain subject.
September 24 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^me [WRT Austen et al.]. That's all cool then.
September 24 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like
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Jerry L Martin Terrific college!
September 24 at 9:48pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I wonder how The College feels about TNET.
September 24 at 9:55pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson I wonder how TNET feels about The College.
September 24 at 9:59pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson ^That sounded oddly aggressive. Didn't mean it that way.
September 24 at 10:02pm · Like
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Sean Robertson But I can't bring myself to delete a comment, because that seems to be against the very nature of TNET.
September 24 at 10:07pm · Like · 6
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John Boyer Thinking for yourself and not learning from others is a terrible idea. Thanks for sharing Samantha.
September 24 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe At least three tutors have shown up on tNET that I know of.
September 24 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This is probably the most effective advertisement in TAC history.
September 24 at 10:38pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Which is why The College no doubt doesn't approve.
September 24 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson This is worth hundreds if not thousands of dollars in Facebook advertising.
September 24 at 10:39pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Boo hoo ha ha
September 24 at 10:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The best discussions have always been out of class anyway.
September 24 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Not if you have adblock. Mwahahahahahahahahahaha
September 24 at 11:25pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer tNET has given me something I was lacking. An internet time suck I don't feel is a *complete* waste of time.
September 24 at 11:27pm · Like · 6
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Lauren Ogrodnick That's the problem... TNET is easier to justify spending time on...
September 24 at 11:29pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger well years from now being initial partipants of tNET will be CV brownie points. Future thesis topics: "whether one can retrieve the beginnings of tNET", "of the mythical troll named Pereventure"; "archeological discoveries on new possible origins of tNET"
September 24 at 11:48pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger stories to tell the grandkids. Hey.
September 24 at 11:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The purpose of the Internet is collegiate discussion and national defense. All other pursuits are tertiary.
September 25 at 12:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, when I mentioned vow I was not speaking canonically. I believe even Aquinas holds that there is a vow implied for priests when they are ordained.
September 25 at 1:46am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Alan Fimister's critique of Garrigou-Lagrange reminds me of Matthew J. Peterson's critique of Thomistotle: «Garrigou does not distinguish enough between the principles that he takes from St. Thomas, and his own conclusions that he draws from those principles, but which Fimister thinks St Thomas himself would not draw.» http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../garrigou-lagrange.../
September 25 at 2:07am · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict John you just made me split my sides laughing - "A Holistic Analysis of Dogma and Recursive Conversation in the Context of the Legendary Never Ending Thread"
September 25 at 2:24am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict TNET seems to have slowed down significantly in the last 10 hours. What's going on here?
September 25 at 2:25am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Also, now that we're over 21,000 comments, I am very interested in the data Edward Langley seems able to procure. I think I'll be satisfied when we have pushed Perescrotch Weinervitch out of the top ten.
September 25 at 2:26am · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick All good things must come to an end I guess...
September 25 at 9:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia well, I pushed him out of the top spot, so it's up to the rest of you to "finish him" (comment stat padding comment) and I'm done drinking now so I'm up for tNET.
September 25 at 9:03am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger weinburg is waxing magisterial o n Bond's status. Just now.
September 25 at 9:35am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger also questioning Bond's credentials.
September 25 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia beats me, I can't see him. He must of unblocked you and blocked me.
September 25 at 9:38am · Like
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John Ruplinger also giving Bond a lecture on Hobbes. The irony.
September 25 at 9:39am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I still wonder about "epistemic authority"
something about that still isn't sitting correctly. I understand in fields of expertise, like the blog post used for examples, that trust in the authority is usually easy to give. But it is a big step to go from learning how to weld to matters of moral, and intellectual, importance. I think that's where the argument breaks down.
September 25 at 9:48am · Like
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Joel HF Typical arrogant tacer, promoting "humility". The gall!
September 25 at 9:50am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm trying to talk Caleb into making a brief cameo before he heads off to a conference.
September 25 at 9:53am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What about the vaccination example?
September 25 at 9:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia lemme get my tinfoil hat, hang on....
September 25 at 9:54am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Here's my brief cameo
September 25 at 10:00am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe I do think that the qualifications for moral expertise or wisdom are much higher than metalworking expertise, that's why Socrates is happy to concede that craftsmen have expertise but keeps looking and failing to find someone with true wisdom or moral expertise.
September 25 at 10:00am · Like · 2
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Caleb Cohoe In general, the more that the knowledge or expertise in question involves a comprehensive view of reality (as in metaphysics) or human ends (as in ethics) the harder it is to truly know or to find a knower.
September 25 at 10:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia therefore....
September 25 at 10:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia because I see two ways that this could go
September 25 at 10:04am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe But that just points to the value that finding a person or community with wisdom would have. Technical experts can only help you with the means to the ends that they assume or that you give them (e.g. building a metal Pegasus). Someone with practical wisdom could help you order your life and someone with theoretical wisdom could help you with understanding reality as a whole.
September 25 at 10:05am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia by what epistemic authority do we find?
September 25 at 10:07am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe Well, partly we start with some default sources to trust like our parents and our community
September 25 at 10:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia so it partly resolves to an accident of birth?
September 25 at 10:09am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe But the kind of strong epistemic authority I'm interested in is something we do need to come to recognize using our cognitive faculties
September 25 at 10:09am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe But this doesn't require being experts ourself. Sometimes we can recognize expertise even without expertise ourselves.
September 25 at 10:10am · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe Watching how someone responds to their opponents and presents their case can be quite informative as to what and how they know
September 25 at 10:10am · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe I'm guessing the people active on tNET have lots of views by now on the expertise or lack thereof of the various interlocutors
September 25 at 10:11am · Like · 4
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Joel HF I am genuinely surprised by what Caleb is arguing--or, more precisely, that he is arguing for it. It'll be interesting to see where he takes it.
September 25 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Or watching Top Chef or other similar competitions, you can often tell who's good even if you're no chef.
September 25 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was going to ask about Church authority
September 25 at 10:13am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I think there are two points I want to make: 1) often we are in fact relying on trust, even when we take ourselves to be making up our own minds
September 25 at 10:14am · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe 2) sometimes we are better off relying on authority instead of making our own minds up
September 25 at 10:14am · Like · 3
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Joel HF At the same time, there are examples of the appearance, but lack, of skill. Jeter appears to be an excellent shortstop, and won many awards for his defensive skill. More recent analysis suggests that he is in fact below average, despite his apparent grace.
September 25 at 10:16am · Edited · Like · 2
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Caleb Cohoe But I am not saying that 2) is the default view we should have of experts, there are a lot of so-called experts I wouldn't trust or rely on in any strong sense
September 25 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia apparent grace within 5 feet of his original positioning.....
September 25 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, someone like Betrand Russell, who wrote very well and is smart, may appear to have real wisdom. But does he in fact or were most of his ethical/metaphysical view mistaken?
September 25 at 10:17am · Edited · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Yeah, there are definitely problems with us tracking things that seem to be related but aren't (like impressively diving for balls, or speaking very confidently)
September 25 at 10:16am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Though I think we shouldn't just look at the disputed cases in evaluating trust or measuring expertise.
September 25 at 10:17am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Jeter really was a better defensive shortstop than all but 100 or so other players
September 25 at 10:17am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia aren't all cases disputed? (with regard to ethical/metaphysical)
September 25 at 10:17am · Like
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John Ruplinger Othello speaks impressively.
September 25 at 10:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^low estimate^\
September 25 at 10:18am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I think the ethical or metaphysical cases are tricky precisely because there is real fundamental disagreement there about first principles
September 25 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think I agree, but I'm having flashbacks of Mr. Berquist.
September 25 at 10:18am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia whom should I trust?
September 25 at 10:19am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I meant 100 or so other shortstops in a given year
September 25 at 10:19am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia now I trust you
September 25 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Though the more qualified version of what I'm saying definitely applies to ethics or metaphysics
September 25 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe You're better off thinking through these issues with the great philosophers of the past and present than trying to come up with your own metaphysical or ethical system
September 25 at 10:20am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Caleb Cohoe, that's probably low re Jeter, since lots of defensive shortstops don't play because they can't hit. But yes, a "bad" player in the mlb is still top quality if you expand the population he is compared to.
September 25 at 10:20am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe In that sense, it's a very TAC point
September 25 at 10:20am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Also a very Catholic point.
September 25 at 10:21am · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe Yeah, that's my point, I don't know enough about shortstops to give the numbers, but if the comparison class is everyone who's played baseball or all human beings, then obviously he's a defensive expert.
September 25 at 10:21am · Like · 1
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Joel HF 100 per year sounds closer, didn't see that before I posted.
September 25 at 10:22am · Like
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Michael Beitia but it is definitely the more qualified version, when you're talking about great philosophers' writings.
Someone has to determine greatness, and the arguments still need to be thought through
September 25 at 10:23am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe It certainly could be - one question that I had in an earlier version of the post was whether morality or religion are exceptions because each of us is directly responsible for our views and behavior in these spheres
September 25 at 10:23am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I think there's something importantly different in these domains, but I'm still not sure if or whether it rules out authority or trust in the relevant senses
September 25 at 10:24am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe On the Bertrand Russell example, I'd say that you'd benefit from reading him if he's defending and expressing his position well.
September 25 at 10:25am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well, I'll remove my unliking your blog post with these relevant qualifications. (I'm sure you were worried about that)
But someone needs to fix the layout! Off center is awful
September 25 at 10:25am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe It does seem like there's something wrong though about just reading one philosopher and sticking with that, there's some kind of need to see the case for different first principles before evaluating.
September 25 at 10:26am · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe I'm no layout expert and I'm not sure I know one, but maybe something could be done
September 25 at 10:26am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe Well, it's been fun, but I have to go to Indiana now
September 25 at 10:26am · Like
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Joel HF If one believes (as I do, but many nominal Catholics and Christians do not) that faith and the right faith at that (e.g. belief in the Trinity, not just modalism) is necessary for salvation, trust will be necessary for just about everyone, not only as regards the content of faith but also who teaches it to us.
September 25 at 10:28am · Edited · Like · 3
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Caleb Cohoe Off to a conference at Purdue in honour of Richard Swinburne, a prominent philosopher of religion
September 25 at 10:27am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Godspeed. Hoosiers can be vicious....
September 25 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Caleb Cohoe Joel, yes, I think you could definitely take the framework I'm working with in that direction
September 25 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my problem Joel, is how one determines that
September 25 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Fides illuminat rationem. I do trust Pius X and Leo XIII. They employ both faith and reason.
September 25 at 10:30am · Like
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Caleb Cohoe I guess the other thing is that I wrote the blogpost directed towards the sort of people I encounter these days in the secular academy. If I was writing it to address the sort of errors TACers are inclined to fall into it would probably be a little different.
September 25 at 10:30am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe This is fun.
September 25 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Now I'm going to read this blogpost. But only because it has been validated by the authority of tNET as worth the effort.
September 25 at 10:32am · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger TACers fall into errors. Caleb can take over for the Falcon.
September 25 at 10:33am · Like
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Joel HF The problem with TAC is that everyone scatters across the country immediately after graduation. This is also just a problem with the instability (moving locations) of modern American life generally. It is particularly acute for TACers, I would think. How is one to develop Aristotelian friendships these days?
September 25 at 10:34am · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger new troll. YEAH
September 25 at 10:34am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb is probably the least troll-like of anyone who has ever made even a passing comment on tNET.
September 25 at 10:35am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe He lacks all the trollish qualities.
September 25 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Joel but that was the raison d etre of the tNET smokers lounge
September 25 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Joel HF He's Canadian though, so not ALL trollish qualities are lacking.
September 25 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel has put his finger on exactly what has made tNET great
September 25 at 10:37am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger samantha i kid of course
September 25 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Thus further demonstrating that I am NOT the least trollish.
September 25 at 10:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hmm, well if we take Scottegrine to be the form of all that is trollish, and not merely an exemplar, then his Canadianness must be part of the what-it-is-to-be of troll.
September 25 at 10:39am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I would argue that Scottegrine is just an exceedingly perfect example, and not the actual form
September 25 at 10:41am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Thus Canadianness is not necessarily an inherently trollish attribute
September 25 at 10:40am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Canadianness is the matter, not the form.
September 25 at 10:44am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb is barely a Canadian anymore anyway
September 25 at 10:45am · Like · 3
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Joel HF For, it is written: "What makes a troll, Mr. Lebowski? Isn't it saying what is most provoking no matter the cost?
Well, sure, that and being Canadian."
September 25 at 10:46am · Like · 5
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Joel HF #trollgnosis
September 25 at 10:47am · Like · 4
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Oleg Kostoglotov To be a Canadian does not necessarily constitute being a troll. To be a troll to Americans is more the matter at hand, the accidental interaction between the two cultural natures exhibits the appearance of trolling though in reality it is just superiority.
September 25 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^troll
September 25 at 10:50am · Like · 4
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Oleg Kostoglotov No just superior, I can see that you are confused, Should I type in all caps to make it easier to understand?
September 25 at 10:52am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Universally, trolls are from northern climes: hence trolls originate in Finland and in the new world, in Canada. Doesn't Thomas talk about this in "De Regno"?
September 25 at 10:53am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger OLEG was born, named and fated to such. What star were you born under?
September 25 at 10:55am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov Northern lights burned at my arrival and all the stars flashed their secret morse round my ancestral bridge to welcome this troll to the world.
September 25 at 10:58am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Canadians are probably the least troll-like people on this earth.
September 25 at 11:17am · Like
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Sean Robertson In fact, we're famous (infamous?) for just wanting to get along.
September 25 at 11:18am · Like
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John Ruplinger Peregrind Grendal excepted ^^^^^
September 25 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Is he Canadian?
September 25 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "sorry"
September 25 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson If so, as official Canadian ambassador to TNET, I revoke his Canadian/TNET dual citizenship.
September 25 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I believe he renounced his tNET citizenship quite a while ago
September 25 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe in the most vehement of terms
September 25 at 11:21am · Like
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Isak Benedict How many people has that cretin blocked?
September 25 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Not me. Yet.
September 25 at 11:22am · Like
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John Ruplinger haha. I was only blocked by the Peregrinne incarnation of the troll.
September 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Sean Robertson But that's because I not once had the patience to engage him.
September 25 at 11:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm all alone and sad.
September 25 at 11:25am · Like
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John Ruplinger His attack on professor Bond is pissing me off. I'm going to have to quote some of his inananities. Bond is probably least troll like member of tNET btw.
September 25 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Which Bond?
September 25 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I still have 4 "mutual friends" with the Scottegrine.
September 25 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund This Bond: https://www.facebook.com/jeffrey.bond.9421/posts/699410823468167
Jeffrey Bond
In the opening pages of Plato's Laws, where an Athenian Stranger is conversing about politics with a Cretan and a Spartan, we find something truly remarkable: ...
See More
September 25 at 11:29am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Peregrendal on Joshua Kenz as Stomachosus (a different status): " I disagree with most of what this blogger is saying, except perhaps his confession of ignorance."
September 25 at 11:31am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I confess. I have forsaken tNET a little to argue on that Bond thread.
September 25 at 11:32am · Like · 3
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Joel HF It is a very interesting argument.
September 25 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Seems like pretty mild exercise of his troll-powers so far.
September 25 at 11:33am · Like
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Jeff Neill Not enough people were taking his bait on the tac alumni page.
September 25 at 11:35am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Peregrendal instructing the ignorant Bond on all things political: " Jeffrey Bond, Do you have a degree in political science? Hobbes held to the idea that man desires peace by his internal nature, and that this desire was one of the strongest proclivities of man's nature, but that government is a device required and contracted to secure this peace. This is not too far off from Aristotle, who positied that the state wages war to secure peace, for peace is equated with justice and negotiated through the common good, which is the rational principle of governance, at all levels of human interaction: family, city, state. A close look shows these political thinkers were all men, and alike in many respects."
September 25 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Peremagistrate pontifex maximus coming out: "I will grant that Hobbes was prone to rhetorical hyperbole, even in his representations of the authors of antiquity; but the tragedy in America today is not religious freedom, but the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral veracity. Democracy in America is open to Catholic rule. Catholics are simply not open to American democracy."
September 25 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^^ The danger of course is that Peregrine is starting again down that path that leads to burning heretics. He's kind of like incredible hulk that way. One minute he is singing odes about medieval beasts; the next he transforms into a raging insatiable green monster.
September 25 at 11:40am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger IRNONIC too that the Cretan could follow the reasoning of the Athenian stranger, but Peregrind cannot follow Dr. Bond. Cretan > Pregrendal
September 25 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger A list of PereGrendalisms: "A close look shows these political thinkers were all men [brilliant, genius!! Peregrendal realized after close analysis they were men], and alike in many respects." Yes, they were all men upon *close* analysis, not trolls. But Hobbes = Aristotle, com'n man.
"the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths such as the Immaculate Conception or the necessity of revelation for moral veracity." Still stinging from tNET two weeks ago.
"Democracy in America is open to Catholic rule. Catholics are simply not open to American democracy" == NOT Madison nor de Tocqueville really (though he did think America was going to become Catholic. But I have fundamental differences with the de Tocq. That would be a long argument to show where he got Catholicism wrong.) AND WHAT American Catholics is he talking about?? good grief!!!!
September 25 at 12:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Here's a link to a previous discussion on Matthew's page (and it actually goes back to July 25 'round when Bond first entered the FB and in the pre-tNET era of FB). All great stuff.
https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152669232891508
Matthew J. Peterson
I love the smell of Federalist 10 in the morning...
September 25 at 11:59am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia He blocked me, I cannot fire across his bow. This saddens me
September 25 at 11:58am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I miss the way you handled the troll: Beitia = troll whisperer.
September 25 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger The essence of the PereGrendal for emphasis:
"the inability of the Studied Catholic Elite to discuss essential truths"
September 25 at 12:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's sad that we apparently miss our troll so much that we're cross-posting lesser examples of his trolling from another thread.
September 25 at 12:02pm · Unlike · 7
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John Ruplinger If the PereGrendal is blocked by all TACers, will he cease to exist?
September 25 at 12:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger My link to Peterson above is a great discussion. I don't think the troll appeared on it.
September 25 at 12:10pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger The July 25 discussion in which Bond defeats Madison, but Matthew Peterson refuses to submit
https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508
Matthew J. Peterson
A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?
By virtue of their office...
See More
September 25 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^^ that's the only reason I'm on tNET. A couple of Bond vs. Peterson duels
September 25 at 12:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I am only the troll-whisperer because like knows like
September 25 at 12:07pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger troll master, troll tamer, troll trainer ^^^^
September 25 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, great link on vocation. However, I don't think anything you or Joshua Kenz say refutes Daniel Lendman. You are disagreeing over minutia perhaps.
September 25 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Calling back the troll is the equivalent of Madison multiplying faction. It may increase unity, but at what price?
September 25 at 12:40pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman ^At what price, indeed.
September 25 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I wasn't calling him back, I was trying to read Dr. Bond's status. If you can't see Scott, it's like listening to someone else talk on the telephone
September 25 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I consider myself a veteran a troll warfare; but never has anyone seen the likes of the Perescott troll.
September 25 at 12:41pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger Scott only makes a couple comments on it actually and Bond responds to two I believe.
September 25 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm really not sure what Peterson is saying is very controversial
September 25 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger It makes more sense not reading the Peregrendal
September 25 at 12:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Fortunately TNET can outlast any troll.
September 25 at 12:42pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger BUT do you follow what Bond is saying?
September 25 at 12:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that there are factions? That Aristotle (at least) recognizes that the main disjoint is between the rich and the poor? That Madison recognized this? I don't get it.
September 25 at 12:42pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I have followed every of their debates for two months, and it seems to me that Matthew is not understanding Bond.
September 25 at 12:43pm · Like
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Joel HF http://laughingsquid.com/secret-bay-bridge-troll-guarded.../
Secret 'Bay Bridge Troll' Guarded the San Francisco--Oakland Bay Bridge for 24 Years
After the San Francisco--Oakland Bay Bridge was...
LAUGHINGSQUID.COM|BY EDW LYNCH
September 25 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I have a million personal reasons to disagree with Peterson, for a while I made it a specific goal of mine. But in this case I just don't see it
September 25 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of factions, I think I must recall all you, my brethren, back to orthodoxy. You should abandon this heterodox from "tNET" and return to true orthodoxy: TNET.
September 25 at 12:44pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia so am I the tNET herisiarch?
September 25 at 12:44pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ^^^^ I think you fail to see Bond's argument, Beitia. I recommend the July 25th discussion.
September 25 at 12:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I do fail to see Bond's argument, because I see Peterson's
September 25 at 12:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^^^ this.
September 25 at 12:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Bond has been consistantly arguing the same thing. Go back. Even if Bond is wrong, his argument is COMPREHENSIBLE. So, that you don't grasp Bond is a failing. And there is another lesser thread as well.
September 25 at 12:47pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF I haven't read the whole thing, but Jeffrey Bond's point makes sense to me--at least the one regarding the Laws--whereas I'm still quite unclear on what Matthew J. Peterson actually thinks here. He keeps talking about practical stuff. Get your head back in the clouds, Peterson!
September 25 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger That said, the more I read there discussion, the better I do see where Peterson is coming from.
September 25 at 12:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger BUT Matthew Peterson is by far the majority opinion. Bond is a minority but very important opinion. INDEED I think he is right.
September 25 at 12:48pm · Like
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--what is it that Matthew J. Peterson says that you agree with?
September 25 at 12:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I find Peterson's argument compelling.
And maybe it's my American upbringing, or further back, my Basque cultural identity, but anything remotely smacking of monarchy makes me vomit
September 25 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I listed some of them above, Joel
September 25 at 12:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger YEAH, And, Joel, above points out a major disconnect. BOND is arguing NOT about the practical but about the principles.
September 25 at 12:50pm · Like
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Joel HF The argument isn't directly about monarchy though, is it? It is whether faction should be an ordering principle of any state.
September 25 at 12:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not exactly sure what "principles" are in politics, if not practical
September 25 at 12:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ right
September 25 at 12:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hahaha did Peregrine actually ask Dr. Jeffrey Bond if he has a degree in political science? Because, as it happens, he does. That's the Doctor part.
September 25 at 12:51pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger democracy per se is not illegitimate. Bond never argues that.
September 25 at 12:51pm · Like
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Joel HF I mean, what is our we aim at generally vs what is it we can achieve hic et nunc.
September 25 at 12:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as soon as someone critiques the American founders, there's usually a "God save the King" hiding somewhere near by
September 25 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Yeah. Isak. that cracked me up.
September 25 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ no.
September 25 at 12:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Was Plato a monarchist?
September 25 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Is faction the ordering principle of our state? My point is that no one thought so at the time. My argument isn't very practical.
September 25 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But, I will say that my considerations of the last few years have led me to become a monarchist. In principle, there is nothing wrong with monarchy; I do think that democracy has a tougher road from day one. . . .. . . and this is from PRACTICAL CONSIDERATIONS. So many practical problems with democracy. But we just got the super heavy blinders on.
September 25 at 12:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Is there a state where faction, and controlling faction isn't an ordering principle?
September 25 at 12:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There is no state without faction, because all faction means is a group of people who want to violate others rights or trounce all over the common good en route to what they want.
September 25 at 12:55pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia like monarchs.
September 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The question is what you do about it.
September 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #factiongnosis
September 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia classical anarchism
September 25 at 12:55pm · Like
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James Patterson I believe the state of grace is without faction. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276732/
State of Grace (TV Series 2001–2002)
Created by Brenda Lilly, Hollis Rich. With Mae Whitman,...
Save
IMDB.COM
September 25 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson All Madison does is argue that by creating a bit stronger, larger government over the whole of the states you will incorporate more factions and this will make a majority FACTION less likely because it will be harder form and implement its sinister designs. THE WHOLE POINT IS TO STOP MAJORITY FACTION, or to stop the many who have ultimate power from misusing it.
September 25 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF So, I just learned that Tocqueville never refers to Fed. 10, despite refering to scores of other issues of the Federalist. What?!? Is this true?
September 25 at 12:58pm · Like
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James Patterson i.e. how no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation, hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established church. It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty (and eventually into intentional ones).
September 25 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson FACTION ISN'T GOOD. BY DEFINITION IT IS BAD. But political life in free-ish countries consists in large part in arguing about who is and isn't a faction.
Madison has faith that we have enough virtue in a large, extended government plus we will have more virtuous rulers in a large, extended government, PLUS all the little factions will help kill and reveal a developing majority faction for what it is and thereby kill it or prevent it from acting on its evil desires.
For crying out loud. What I am fighting against is a 1950s anger at where things ended up read back into the founding.
September 25 at 1:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, forgive my ignorance of secondary sources, but what exactly is Beard's interpretation of Fed. 10? All I really know is that Beard thought the founders were motivated by economics.
September 25 at 1:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey Bond come back to tNET and argue with Matthew J. Peterson within its all-encompassing glow.
September 25 at 1:05pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Plus, Jeffrey Bond will be safe here from Peregrottish impertinences.
September 25 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson A last salvo and then I have go back to teaching this stuff for a living.
Tocqueville doesn't mention it explicitly, but he does talk about the principle a bit, I think.
Federalist 9 and 10 are simply arguments defending the Constitution as a LARGE republic directly against the anti-Federalist Brutus in his first Brutus #1 arguing that a SMALL REPUBLIC is better because in a large republic the public good is sacrificed to a 1000 views and in large republic you have to deal with more ambitious men of large fortunes - among other things.
First, Hamilton shoots Brutus down re his use of Montesquieu in Federalist 9. Hamilton points out that what Montesquieu (and we might add, Aristotle) are talking about is already smaller than the states. So should we split up into a million polises [sic]? Surely creating leagues adn federations of smaller republics into larger bodies isn't some kind of unknown, and even Montesquieu talks about such a thing as potentially advantageous. (As I have pointed out to you, Madison in fact studied ancient examples of larger popular governments made up of smaller popular ones for months leading into the convention.)
Anyhow, then Madison (who gets excited in a letter to Hamilton about Brutus's arguments against them - finally a serious Anti-federalist worth opposing!) jumps in with Fed 10 - which is based on some thoughts he's been working out since before the Constitutional convention - trying to figure out all the ways we can counter the central flaw of the rule of the many - majority tyranny. In other words, not only does Madison think that the large republic can be defended, but he's been thinking about it as a solution to the problem of increasingly radical and unstable democracies in the states.
Fed 10 is mentioned in Jefferson's second inaugural, I think, but it doesn't become a big deal until a vaguely modern materialist/marxist Beard in the early part of the 20th century tries to give a since disproven economic take on the founding in which the Constitution was all about the rich ruling over the poor - Beard seizes on fed 10 as proof of this amoral calculation/capitalist machine.
This leads to some great booksy types (mostly Straussians) in the 1950s reading fed 10 a bit more broadly as MODERNISM simply. They read Fed 10 and Fed 51 and it is all very simple - they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present discontent. This is the school from which Bond ingested his arguments.
But Joel HF, if you want to understand Fed 10 you need to read these documents I link to (the precursors to it) and consider it in context of Madison's developing thought on the matter:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/matthew-j-peterson/jim-madison-and-the-desideratum-of-human-governance/10150222335550931
Matthew J. Peterson
Jim Madison and the Desideratum of Human Governance
Since we've been talking about sovereignty here:
Jim Madison, Ratification, and the "Right of Secession" I
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150204601425931
and here:
...
Continue Reading
September 25 at 1:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF I look forward to reading that. Thanks Peterson.
September 25 at 1:13pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson the important part is just the snippets from those three precursors to Fed 10 by madison - not my gloss
September 25 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia tNET is proof that factions are essential
September 25 at 1:24pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson For without Scott, tNET would not be.
September 25 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson OH HAPPY FAULT
September 25 at 1:25pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson OH HAPPY FACTION?
September 25 at 1:25pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund "The whole point is to stop majority faction." But the means to stopping it is a sort of balance of faction system, analogous to the balance of power system that perfidious Albion and her progeny have been promoting since time immemorial. The point of Jeffrey Bond's quote from the Laws is that the way to overcome strife is not through balance of power, but through virtue—i.e. through subordinating everything to one principle. (Don't forget to use a bucket Michael Beitia).
September 25 at 1:29pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger I did read that Matthew J. Peterson. And saw the same thing that Jeffrey did, but couldn't quote at the time, being away from the internet.
September 25 at 1:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson To me, Pater Edmund, this sounds like saying something like this:
Virtue is what should stop vice. So as parish priest, I can't tell anyone at the village bar to tell me or his wife or otherwise prevent the village alcoholic from entering or in any way try to dissuade him to leave. Even avoiding the occasion of sin is no way to try to prevent sin, for it does not rely on virtue.
Also, any sort of accountability software on the internet that would reveal to multiple people what any one person is looking at is off limits. For it doesn't rely on virtue.
September 25 at 1:31pm · Like
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Joel HF ^How does that follow?
September 25 at 1:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The entire Constitution is trying to wrest power over commerce away from the states and give it to more virtuous leaders in a less democratic system. Madison depends upon more virtuous and better leaders and representatives who will be protected from popular whims and will by the structure of the Constitution, and who will be elected in such a way and live and breathe in a structure that will look after the good of the whole - the Union - of all the states combined rather than the partial interests of one.
September 25 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, and Jeffrey's argument on July 25, is that in attempting to prevent majority faction, Madison created a super-majority faction that necessarily becomes intolerant of those who adhere to and publicly proclaim the truth.
September 25 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Also, he mentions in a few places that the fact that the republic will be LARGER means that it will have more factions within it, and this will make it harder for any one faction to become a majority faction, since it will be opposed and outed to the majority of people by other factions and other non-factions.
September 25 at 1:34pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Madison isn't CREATING any faction. He's simply creating a larger government over more territory and population, albeit with more limited ends.
September 25 at 1:35pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I do agree that the balancing out thing can sometimes have a good effect.
September 25 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger MADISON DOES CREATE A NEW SUPERMAJORITY FACTION. QED below:
https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508
Matthew J. Peterson
A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?
By virtue of their office...
See More
September 25 at 1:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^^ by Jeffrey.
September 25 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Subordinating everything to one principle in practice means that no one has any recourse if that principle turns out to be corrupt
September 25 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But Fed 10 on its own isn't quite correct. Madison wanted to give similar interests, opinions, and passions via education and of course all kinds of freedoms were restricted then if people thought they were too factional. Government can and does today and especially then sought to go after the causes of faction within us.
The point in 10 is simply that government cannot ultimately eradicate faction within us - it can't make us perfect - it must deal with us as we are. Like any sort of moral advice. So one of the auxiliary precautions and helps Madison's sees to help keep majority rule on the right path is that in a larger republic it will be harder for a majority faction to form and if it does form (which is inevitable, according to him and myself) it will have a harder time acting on its evil desire.
AS OPPOSED TO A SMALL REPUBLIC/PURE DEMOCRACY, in which majority faction will run amuck and no one can stop it very easily.
September 25 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the past.
September 25 at 1:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Pater, I threw up in my mouth a little bit...
September 25 at 1:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--you are the one who was challenging FB to provide a law (that wasn't of the Pol Pot variety) that either educated or lead people to virtue, aren't you?
September 25 at 1:45pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Samantha that depends on what the principle is, and how the subordination is arranged.
September 25 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So what principle would you propose?
September 25 at 1:45pm · Like
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Pater Edmund The bell rings so I'll just leave the Thread with a nice link: http://the-josias.blogspot.co.at/.../the-american... #LinkGnosis
The Josias: The American Founders and the Aristotelian Tradition – Part 6:...
THE-JOSIAS.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 25 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: yes - I have this crazy tic in which I like to hear examples to help understand airy fairy talk, especially when it comes in the form of a critique of things that actually exist. I love how this question is often mocked - well, this PRACTICAL stuff has no bearing on my principles...
September 25 at 1:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF I wasn't mocking (here at least!). But you were giving examples of Law leading to the common good (which I think were right), and I was wondering if I was crazy or if you had questioned that.
September 25 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "snippets". But Jeffrey puts together a coherent argument that has yet to be refuted IMO.
September 25 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you just have to trust tNET to provide a principle, as tNET is expert in all things.
September 25 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger And being Cato, I am the moral authority of tNET which is .......
September 25 at 1:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger the epistemic authority of all things.
September 25 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia call me pragmatic (no, don't really) but shouldn't a lot of "oughts" be purged from a rational discourse on politics?
September 25 at 1:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, no, Joel HF: I was simply asking for examples. I think that this airy fairy talk in our circles fails to understand that even for Aristotle, law doesn't lead to virtue in a direct way. In fact, the law, if we are to believe the gospels, CONDEMNS but FAILS to ultimately make us virtuous.
But even for Aristotle, for instance, the law ought to indirectly try to make the people themselves friends. That is, the bond of unity and virtue will come from people doing things, not from laws. The laws do not directly CAUSE virtue. They work indirectly.
Of course, there is probably no greater example of an attempt to create explicitly Christian popular government than the puritans in early America. As Tocqueville points out, they had what almost anyone would describe as draconian laws yet they were democracies, through and through.
September 25 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger "The confusion lies in our desire to conflate real problems and philosophies we see among us today a bit too quickly with snippets of texts we find from the past." -------- an unfair rendering of Jeffrey's argument.
September 25 at 1:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia isn't a lot of critique of the American founding utopian in nature?
September 25 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ not at all
September 25 at 1:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am in no way Utopian.
September 25 at 1:52pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia you want heaven on Earth, admit it John
September 25 at 1:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^^ no. heaven in heaven.
September 25 at 1:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Heaven = realplace (eutopos) not "noplace" (outopos)
September 25 at 1:54pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think that laws can and should be ordered to the common good, but I think people get sloppy about how this can and ought to happen as well as a bit high and mighty about what the common good consists in for a political body.
I also think that Bond seizes on texts in which Madison does flirt with the kind of thing Bond calls out on occasion, but that in overall context (or even in those texts themselves) it simply isn't true to say that Madison or the rest created a regime based on faction or didn't think there was an objective good.
That doesn't mean what they created was perfect, or obviate other objections.
September 25 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^^ a fairer take on Bond
September 25 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And Bond also nowhere has argified for anything practical. He is trying to point out what he sees as the logical effect of a principle Madison "seems" to espouse. (And I see the same things that Bond sees.)
September 25 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I am a dystopian, "vale of tears" kinda guy. (Hard to argue against that, viz. that I'm a cynic.) Beitia.
September 25 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia best of all possible worlds for me
September 25 at 2:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [As to Beitia, he's Basque, anti-authoritarian, anti-monarchial, anti-hylemorphe, troll-trolling anti-troller. So, go figure.]
September 25 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I feel like I have been defined and circumscribed. I have no more to say.
September 25 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But to underline Joel's point, the Bond - Peterson debate has been the best thing on FB. tNET at times reaches that level of #gnosis, but is inconsistent.
September 25 at 2:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman "ineffabIe". That's how I feIt as a poor maIe in a high-end IiberaI arts schooI with 60/40 maIe to femaIe ratio. IneffabIe. Maybe I shouId Iook up that word........
September 25 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Peter Nuar Metarequest: Given the near impossibility of loading back to the original conversation for those who haven't followed from the beginning, will the comments be published in book form or .pdf (as if there needs be a difference)? Also, you may or may not be aware, the original link is.... dead.
September 25 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The thread calls: come join us Richard Arndt and James McPherson
September 25 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe tNET is dying just when I need it most. Stay with me tNET! Don't leave me all alone!
September 25 at 5:52pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger It has played dead before. It always returns.
September 25 at 5:56pm · Like
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Max Summe How is it possible for that which cannot end to die?
September 25 at 6:07pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Don't worry Samantha, TNET merely rests.
September 25 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe This would be more enjoyable with beer
September 25 at 6:07pm · Like · 2
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Peter Nuar Max: T'is personification, as in, "beer beckons us".
September 25 at 6:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you can always pass the time by scrolling up and reading the 20,000 pages that pater links.
September 25 at 6:18pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Oh ye of little faith! This is the cthulhu thread! It is the Facebook worm which dieth not!
September 25 at 6:19pm · Like · 4
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Max Summe Peregrinch tried to kill it, Matthew J. Peterson tried to kill it, but it liveth on!
September 25 at 6:24pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I've already read all 20,000 of the links Pater Edmund posted.
September 25 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia to give up tNET or not.... or perhaps, will tNET let me go... four (waking) hours is a personal best, I think......
fortunately, I'll be at Mass this evening.
September 25 at 6:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe haha, I'm lying obviously
September 25 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Do you think the browser would even support it if you tried to load the whole thread?
September 25 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, if you're out I'm out.I already feel like the last one at the party, long after the host has gone to bed
September 25 at 6:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think when tNET is over, though, I might as well quit facebook
September 25 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Beitia will never leave as long as i have breath. . .
September 25 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Our host ditched us long ago. Trolling him on other threads just seems sad. But if I don't cynically mock his heartwarming enthusiasm for teaching, the founders, and America, who will?
September 25 at 6:29pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger . . . and bandwidth. He got me into this.
September 25 at 6:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger quit tNET. Quit sooner life. . . . . but if it does die, i hope Edward can extract a searchable copy. There is some treasure amidst the trolls and fiery dragons. And great troll fighting too.
September 25 at 6:33pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Samantha the party will gain a second, and third, and fourth wind. TNET is by definition never ending.
September 25 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hypothetical question, tNET-- if you were donating a bunch of money to TAC, would you donate it with specification as to how the money should be spent, or not?
September 25 at 6:43pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict What is this donating of which you speak?
September 25 at 6:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak Benedict-- Imagine somebody was giving you a whole lot of money specifically for the purpose of giving it to a non-profit institution. Unfortunately, you cannot keep any of this money for yourself.
September 25 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick If it was a lot yes, I'd donate it to the *forgets the name* the fund that just earns interest that most colleges use to give scholarships
September 25 at 6:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and the name of the *forgets the name* fund is?
September 25 at 6:40pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick The endowment fund... I think..
September 25 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "empty endowment fund" is that the name? Just guessing and trying to help out.
September 25 at 6:50pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF May I suggest the human fund? "Money for people"
September 25 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I have always been a proponent of the teachers' catholic "tea party" fund.
September 25 at 6:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe They have an endowment fund??
September 25 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- I'll split it with you 60-40 if you can come up a valid tax id.
September 25 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And probably a couple off-shore banking accounts
September 25 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Yes they do, but they need to raise so much each year (and that increased so much with the economy) that nothing ever makes it into there unless specified.
September 25 at 7:03pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick (Also because paying for each year is obviously a priority)
September 25 at 7:03pm · Like
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Max Summe They really ought to put 2-3% of total donations into the fund
September 25 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Money always appears when you really need it - but if you don't earmark funds they disappear....
September 25 at 7:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Lauren, helpful. Thanks.
September 25 at 7:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Assuming Joel doesn't follow through on our embezzlement scheme, of course
September 25 at 7:06pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha Cohoe, thank you for calling me back to the Eternal Return. It's nice to be missed. But don't think for a minute that I ever left the Great Thread. It has never been far from my heart. Were it not for the fact that I have to return to the shadows of the cave each morning to make a living, I would dwell forever in the intelligible realm illuminated by the Thread.
September 25 at 7:16pm · Like · 6
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Joel HF I believe you mean our "totally legit and legal charity" scheme.
September 25 at 7:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, right, right.
September 25 at 7:19pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond And in my absence, I have found my argument against Madison quite ably defended by John Ruplinger and Pater Edmund, as well as others.
September 25 at 7:21pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I have often fantasized about having such a large sum of money that I could stipulate that they had to change their ill-conceived rolling admissions policy. (And probably a few other things, too.)
September 25 at 7:22pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe John mostly just asserted how boss you are, and how much you owned Madison.
September 25 at 7:22pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "tea" party fund aka teachers good "spirits" fund. [Sadly rumors caused a diocese wide ban on spirits in San Antonio Catholic schools.]
September 25 at 7:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine, you raise an intriguing point.
September 25 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Wow. I haven't been called "boss" since I was in grade school!
September 25 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I did link to said boss arguments though, Samantha.
September 25 at 7:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think it's quite enough to start attaching strings though
September 25 at 7:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Rolling admission is so bad
September 25 at 7:26pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey, the youth say "boss" again. I know because I have a sister who is a youth.
September 25 at 7:27pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger embezlment schemes, the American dream, the city of commerce enters the thread again.
September 25 at 7:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Totally legal and legit charity schemes, John
September 25 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Are you against legal and legit charity?
September 25 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger the cave enters the thread of enlightenment and gnosis. The battle of tenebrae et lux. We know who wins though.
September 25 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Did I say that your beneficence with Joel was unAmerican?
September 25 at 7:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, but I assume you are against the american dream
September 25 at 7:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz John Ruplinger, seeing as I essentially agreed with Lendman that marriage is not called a vocation properly, I can see why you think I didn't refute him.
I only called him out on vow. Speaking of which, Daniel Lendman, how would you define a vow then?
September 25 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, if I had money to donate, yes I would. Namely I would require it be applied to pre-existing college debt, because the savings in interest would be a multiplier.
ETA: proper salutation for a lady.
September 25 at 7:49pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Joshua Kenz that would depend on whether the interest accruing on the debt is greater than the interest that would be accrued in the endowment fund
September 25 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And what happened to the Mrs? I found it charmingly pedantic.
September 25 at 7:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I would donate with strict stipulations.
I would establish a missionary/charity work program in the first two summers. Mandatory. You'd have choices and earn work study money by doing menial and visceral charity work. My parents thought of this years ago, and many have suggested it over time.
The last summer and the summer after graduation I would fund pre-professional programs of all kinds, also mandatory, that put students in top notch orgs and biznesses or educational institutes, etc. and let them be learning the landscape and what they do or don't want to do.
September 25 at 7:44pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I would also use money and prudence to pressure them to enact more stringent admissions policies and formalized, transparent, and professional procedures when it comes to hiring and firing decisions.
September 25 at 7:46pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson Samantha, I would specify at least a large portion of it (or all of it, depending on the size of the sum). I'd talk to recent graduates and current students about what they think needs money (taken with a grain of salt for the inevitable cynicism, of course). Of course, students don't know all the ins and outs of how the money is spent, but they see a side of the school that others don't, and often there are many things pertinent to everyday student life which go unfunded in favour of bigger, more PR-friendly projects. I don't necessarily mean that as a criticism of the administration, but it was an unfortunate fact of life while I was there.
September 25 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And probably, as a friend suggested, a program to bring in a certain percentage of non-traditional tutors who have not been just been in academia their whole lives, as well as higher and clearer standards and procedure re hiring tutors in general.
This would include significantly upping tutor salaries, by the way.
I would also make pedagogical practice and instruction a more formal part of tutor development.
September 25 at 7:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^strings are always attached. Strings are unattached to penury. cf Xenophon's Oikonomia for how Socrates escaped.
September 25 at 7:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But frankly, I would probably wait and see how things develop in the next decade before giving them anything.
September 25 at 7:51pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah don't get nothing for nothing, as my grandfather used to say.
September 25 at 7:52pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Also I would commission a statue of James Madison and demand its placement in the chapel.
September 25 at 8:09pm · Edited · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger ^ hey, Bond [just saying. . . \ American religion QED \ ]
September 25 at 8:03pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner Samantha, what's wrong with the rolling admissions policy?
September 25 at 8:00pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner But also, I think one of the wisest attitudes the College has is to turn down donations of whatever size that call for changes they don't think are of advantage to its mission. (One could make mistakes in the particular judgements of course, but the principle illustrates what is best about this place, and hopefully, what will help it maintain its identity and serve students for decades to come.)
September 25 at 8:08pm · Unlike · 4
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Jeffrey Bond May I suggest an addition to Matthew's commissioned statue of James Madison? His right foot should be stomping on my head, and his left on the head of Ruplinger, with a serene, otherworldly smile on his saintly countenance.
September 25 at 8:13pm · Like · 4
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Katherine Gardner ^Ha! Oh. dear/
September 25 at 8:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm sure you could get that statue of Madison in there. They found a place for all those gross dead animals, didn't they?
September 25 at 8:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Katherine, rolling admission adversely affects the quality of the incoming class, which adversely affects everyone's experience, especially given the communal nature of the education
September 25 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Katherine Gardner: I think so too, in principle. Most institutions of Higher Ed are cheaper dates than politicians. I love TAC for the same reason - they tell presidents NOT to speak there. Heh.
And yet. I'm not so sure about the mission as understood and implemented. Not sure it can last as it has operated in the past.
September 25 at 8:16pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I've been unblocked by Pope Periwinkle Scrotch. Why, I have no idea. This is like being in a bad relationship.
September 25 at 8:16pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Hmmm. How does it adversely affect the quality of the class?
September 25 at 8:18pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner You mean something like, people get accepted who are worse fits just because they apply earlier in the year than people who are better fits?
September 25 at 8:19pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Stupid people make for stupid discussions.
September 25 at 8:20pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I know of quite a few stories of promising, intelligent high school seniors who only found out about TAC during the normal college admissions "season"--i.e., Dec./Jan. By that time, the college's incoming class is already full (of people who are related to an alumnus and were thus "in the know"). Anecdata, maybe, but it bothers me.
September 25 at 8:21pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Katherine Gardner Joel, I find that not to be the case.
September 25 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Well, I guess I'm being flexible with the meaning of 'stupid people'
September 25 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner But the smarties in the room need the slow people to get anywhere real.
September 25 at 8:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Katherine Gardner They don't admit not understanding things to themselves as readily sometimes.
September 25 at 8:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Katherine Gardner I can sympathize with that Catherine, though I don't know that it's a bad policy simply because some people don't get in. They don't let just anyone in, afterall... only people they think can benefit from and contribute to the discussions somehow. And why shouldn't they come, even if someone smarter also wants to come? As I said, smarter doesn't always add what's most needed to a the mix.
September 25 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Though maybe I am oversimplifying your position by identifying the smart people as the ones hurt by rolling admissions?
September 25 at 8:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think I have caught up on the discussion of Madison that I missed. James Patterson (whom I am unable to tag) said about Federalist 10 that "no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation, hence all opting to defend against any one of them claiming to be the established church. It turns then into unintentional defenders of liberty (and eventually into intentional ones)." That, I think is a correct read of Madison. But that is also the problem. Madison's plan makes sure that the one true Church could never be established. This effectively removes the one true God from the public realm. And that, as Leo XIII insists, is an affront to God. For while it is true that Catholicism is permitted to enter the public realm and makes its case, nevertheless American Catholics who imbibe the Madisonian principle of religious indifference will soon be unwilling and ultimately be unable to make the argument for Catholicism (as we see today). The supposed goal, then, that "no single religious sect could lay claim to an entire nation," is actually not the outcome of Madison's plan. What Madison actually achieves is a super majority faction where one single religious sect--call it Americanism--does come to dominate American political life. And it is a tyrannical faction of the worst kind because it destroys not property but souls that uphold the dogma of dogmatic tolerance over the dogmas of the one true Church.
September 25 at 8:25pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going to drink all the rest of the pappy's while Caleb is gone.
September 25 at 8:25pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe That will show him.
September 25 at 8:26pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I can understand why they had the policy originally, when nobody knew about the college and the classes had about twelve people in them. But now that they have more interested people than spaces in the class, what would be so bad about assembling all the applications and considering the group as a whole?
September 25 at 8:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Yeah, I see what you're saying. I wonder if the result wouldn't kind of naturally be picking all the brightest spots, though if we went that route. And I don't know the whole rationale behind the policy, either. I am only speaking of my experience teaching class here, which is limited. Gotta run... will check in later.
September 25 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffrey-- what does "make the case for Catholicism" mean?
September 25 at 8:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine-- I was mostly advocating for smarter students, so no, you didn't misunderstand me. : ) Mostly, though, we need more good, vocal students. I wasn't the perfect TAC student by any means, but there were lots of kids who *never* said a word in class. If you have enough of those kinds of students, section is torture.
September 25 at 8:36pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Jeffrey Bond, does Vatican ii change things at all, in your view?
September 25 at 8:31pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil McArthur gave a talk at one of the alumni dinners a few years back where he seemed to be saying that he thought the College should be employing a different approach to admissions, given the limited number of spaces, the importance of the College's mission to teach a particular school of thought, and the unfortunate tendency of nice Catholic youth to stumble in looking for nothing more than a nice Catholic environment. Jonathan Monnereau, do you still have the text of that talk?
September 25 at 8:32pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson On the contrary, Katherine Gardner, "iron sharpens iron," as the good book says.
A more competitive edge to the place would have helped me, at any rate.
September 25 at 8:32pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Katherine Gardner: They don't all have to be geniuses. I just think that considering the applicant pool as a whole would be beneficial.
September 25 at 8:32pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Also, Caleb Cohoe, who has abandoned me but who is one of the all time awesomest TAC graduates, almost didn't come because of the rolling admission policy, for the reason Catherine Joliat Feil mentioned
September 25 at 8:33pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson. You wrote: "This leads to some great booksy types (mostly Straussians) in the 1950s reading fed 10 a bit more broadly as MODERNISM simply. They read Fed 10 and Fed 51 and it is all very simple - they read our modern thought and problems directly into those two papers ripped out of contexts as the evil seeds of our present discontent. This is the school from which Bond ingested his arguments." Now, I don't mind being called "space man" (see The Ninth Configuration), or having my arguments referred to as "airy fairy" (which borders on hate speech in our enlightened times), but to reduce me to 1950s Straussian anger is going too far. As Groucho Marx and Bugs Bunny once famously said, "Of course you know this means war!"
September 25 at 8:34pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: you are in Madison's place in 1786. What do you propose?
September 25 at 8:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, the answer for smart students going too fast is tutors like Berquist. Or, if manducatios aren't your thing, Kolbeck. Relying on idiots seems backwards to me.
September 25 at 8:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe To be fair, though, Joel HF and Catherine Joliat Feil and I are a bunch of snobs.
September 25 at 8:36pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson What I think is ironic and yet even touching about the school's policy is how democratic it is.
September 25 at 8:37pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Catherine, I would love to read/hear that talk.
September 25 at 8:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I think the official purpose of the policy is egalitarian in nature
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha Cohoe, I'm not sure you what you are referring to when you say "make the case for Catholicism."
September 25 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was quoting you
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like
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Joel HF We are, for sure! But I think Catherine is making a slightly less snobby point.
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You said Madison leads to a world where Catholics don't make the case for Catholicism
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond In what context?
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matthew, why would it matter at all what anyone would have done in Madison's place? Isn't the whole debate an investigation, a quest to understand what Madison actually DID propose?
September 25 at 8:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because there isn't room for the Catholic Church to be the one official church
September 25 at 8:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or something. that's how I understood you, anyway
September 25 at 8:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, we're making excellent, snobby points. It's not mutually exclusive.
September 25 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Ah, OK. American Catholics, for the most part, are Americans first and Catholics second. It is called the heresy of Americanism. They place the First Amendment above the dogmas of the Faith. Hence, they say things like "Catholicism is true for me, but not necessarily true for you," thereby demonstrating that they have subordinated their Catholicism to the higher truths of the American founding.
September 25 at 8:41pm · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Joel HF, yes Vatican II attempts to complete the Madisonian revolution by making the Church fully American.
September 25 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That isn't because they're Americans first, it's because they're basically secular. THey have imbibed the relativism of the modern age. That's the Church's fault for not teaching better, not Madison's fault for establishing freedom of religion
September 25 at 8:42pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Does VII mandate a certain church state separation, Jeffrey Bond?
September 25 at 8:43pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Both are true, Samantha. But Catholic teaching has failed because Madison has succeeded. The public realm is too powerful and overwhelms a merely private Catholicism.
September 25 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Are you saying that the Catholic Church can only succeed with the support of the state??
September 25 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Surely you don't want to concede that!
September 25 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Argh! Was on my phone and missed your answer, Jeffrey Bond. Have you read Thomas Pink's articles on religious liberty and VII? I think they are quite interesting, myself.
September 25 at 8:45pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond America, as the engine of the Enlightenment, is remaking the world in its own image. The Church and, ironically, Islam, are all that stand in its way.
September 25 at 8:46pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson To be fair, section without a few quiet people would have been a disaster. Not everyone can talk all the time. Also, there's no way of telling how someone will contribute in section just by seeing their application. They could have straight As and not say a word, or they could have straight Bs and be very helpful contributors.
September 25 at 8:46pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Locke gets the "credit" for the victory of Enlightenment principles. Madison is merely a popularizer of Locke's principles, especially the doctrine of toleration.
September 25 at 8:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Thomas Pink on religious liberty and VII: http://www.firstthings.com/.../08/conscience-and-coercion
Vatican II’s teaching on religious freedom changed policy, not doctrine
In the nineteenth century, in encyclicals from Gregory...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
September 25 at 8:47pm · Like
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Joel HF More Pink: http://www.academia.edu/.../What_is_the_Catholic_doctrine...
What is the Catholic doctrine of religious liberty?
The paper examines Catholic doctrine and theology on...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY THOMAS PINK
September 25 at 8:48pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha, the Church can and will succeed with or without the state. But the state by nature is subordinate and can do great damage to souls when it elevates itself above the true Church.
September 25 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Thanks, Joel. I will check it out.
September 25 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I have read Pink (per pater Edmund's pm links to me). They have several flaws. Be happy to share them but not from phone.
September 25 at 8:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sometimes that advantage of mission is a little more real politick than they let on...they have made changes, in the past, they disagreed with in principle in order to secure approval.
September 25 at 8:49pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Interestingly, I think there are some Calvanists who read Locke as an illiberal--i.e. arguing against toleration of Papist and Muslims b/c they have a temporal head of religion which trumps their civic loyalty.
September 25 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, this is a big vague for me. Do you not approve of religious liberty?
September 25 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, spill. What changes?
September 25 at 8:50pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ruplinger-I'd love to hear your thoughts re Pink. Feel free to pm me, or post it or whatever.
September 25 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Religious liberty in the Lockean/American sense is not liberty. I agree with Leo XIII's magisterial account in Libertas.
September 25 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF "Advantage of mission"? Joshua Kenz
September 25 at 8:52pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the American sense meaning that we do not establish an official state church?
September 25 at 8:52pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond How to reconcile Leo with Vatican II? Michael Davies asked that question long ago, but he has never received an answer.
September 25 at 8:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Jeffrey Bond, read Thomas Pink, for at least an attempted reconciliation.
September 25 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger He misdefines liberty (contra Libertas) and is ambiguous in his use of the word "religion". While critical of DH's silence on Church's teaching, Pink does the same. << brief summary
September 25 at 8:56pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Dang! Stupid FB omitted 40 minutes of comments.
Responding to Ms. Gardner above.
September 25 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ah!
September 25 at 8:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Christianity began and flourished without the help of the state. Jesus was pretty clear in fact that the realms were different.
September 25 at 8:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond We in principle (as in the First Amendment) exclude even the possibility of an established Church, even if the population were 100% Catholic. This, as Leo writes, is an affront to God. Not only individuals, but also and especially the state must acknowledge His authority.
September 25 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Totally different kingdoms
September 25 at 8:56pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The realms are different, but complementary. Read St. Thomas' On Kingship.
September 25 at 8:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Isak Benedict: no, what's not relevant is complaining about not taking an option that never existed.
September 25 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I've read On Kingship, thanks.
September 25 at 8:56pm · Like
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Joel HF An Anglican against state-established churches? How curious.
September 25 at 8:56pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Oh hush. My kind of Anglicans are just evangelicals who like liturgy
September 25 at 8:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The option may not have existed, Matthew, but that was because of the success of Locke. Madison does not have a problem with that success.
September 25 at 8:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It wasn't an option because of the plurality of religious communities already in existence on the ground in the Colonies
September 25 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe All of whom quite rightly wanted protection against persecution
September 25 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond That may be, but it is another matter altogether to begin to embrace the principle of religious indifferentism.
September 25 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, Samantha, in many ways the early church's relationship to the State may be the best for holiness, but that's only because martyrdom is a direct route to heaven.
September 25 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If you've read On Kingship, why are you saying "totally different kingdoms" as if that rebuts the claim that the state must acknowledge God's authority?
September 25 at 9:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because I was citing Jesus, who seems to say something quite different.
September 25 at 9:02pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Matthew J. Peterson re: the discussion of egalitarian admissions above: the policy may have been egalitarian to begin with, when no one had ever heard of this fringe ranch with a bunch of trailers where they talked about Ancient Greeks. It's not egalitarian anymore. It favors people who have been dreaming about going to TAC since before they could read.
September 25 at 9:02pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe In fact, it favors the offspring of alums
September 25 at 9:03pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond The conversion of Constantine was not a mistake. The Church has always sought the conversion of the state. Jesus, after all, said to go forth and teach all NATIONS.
September 25 at 9:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe which may, at this point, be the true purpose
September 25 at 9:03pm · Like
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Joel HF #admissionsgnosis
September 25 at 9:04pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe Well to give a relatively minor, and well known, example. Dr. MacArthur separated the altar from the tabernacle and made it versus populuum, much to the consternation of Fr. McGovern who would not speak to him for days afterwards. Much more hurtful, the college not only had a falling out with one of its founders, at the behest of the non-founder Fr. McGovern. They completely erased him as much as possible from memory. You cannot find his name anywhere on the list of chaplains, despite being their first. And the dispute over which he left was his desire to appeal to the Cardinal after Fr. McGovern came in and said he wasn't allowed to celebrate the EF. The school didn't want any association that might be negative, such as politely asking the Church authority for clarification of the law.
And we were forbidden to organize anything in memorial when he died... Fr. Charles, being a Nobertine, though posted flyers advertising his requiem at their abbey (and I even got suspected of being behind that by the "we must never be associated with conservative liturgy movement by Mahony...yeah Dean, I am pretty sure too late for that.) Or the whole intimidate a student for activity not concerning the school, because the Cardinal might think we are conservative and we cannot have that (we have to walk on egg shells I was told).
How about the attitude to student workers during VIP workers? Everything was all for appearances and pampering donors. Only time I recall the school violating labor laws knowingly...Fr. Buckley did end the liturgical segregation, where we had to go to Mass elsewhere because they were rich.
Now I am making this all sound much worse than it was, in some ways. But the point is the college did worry about things like connections and perceptions and money to keep afloat to the point of not always being the most principled body.
September 25 at 9:05pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict Where did Jesus say that the state does not have to acknowledge God's authority? Are you thinking of the rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's bit?
September 25 at 9:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, that, and I also think it is relevant that Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. It doesn't depend on the authorities of this world to achieve its aims.
September 25 at 9:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Your father's argument treads dangerously close to saying the reverse.
September 25 at 9:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Jesus' kingdom is not of this world, but this world is part of His kingdom, and that includes the public realm, not just the private.
September 25 at 9:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe (right, father and son, right? Am I remembering that correctly?)
September 25 at 9:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Jesus doesn't need us or the state. But given our political nature, His love for us involves the conversion of nations, not just individuals.
September 25 at 9:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe assuming that love of God flourishes best when governments enforce a way of worshipping him
September 25 at 9:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I would have to ask a Biblical scholar, but I very much suspect you are not using "nations" correctly, there
September 25 at 9:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is not a matter of enforcing worship. Between indifference and force there is education.
September 25 at 9:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha - yes, father and son. Or so I am told.
September 25 at 9:15pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Telemachus had the same worry.
September 25 at 9:15pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict But Samantha that should not distract you from the sheer quality and dazzling brilliance of our arguments.
September 25 at 9:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When, in history, has the state not used some kind of force to establish religion when the state had an official church?
September 25 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Geniunely curious about that one
September 25 at 9:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If anything is distracting me, it's the whiskey
September 25 at 9:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Whiskey whiskey, Nancy whiskey
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like
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Joel HF I get the feeling that "crusty-trads" (as Peterson call them (us?)) are over-represented here. Or maybe TAC is more traddy than I thought.
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm drawing a blank on the Telemachus reference, btw. Care to impart #gnosis to me?
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger father and son= 22000
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm all alooooone.
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Telemachus wondered if Odysseus was really his father.
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, oh, oh, right.
September 25 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, Madison and the guys who were concerned about establishing a state church had a seriously legit reason to be concerned.
September 25 at 9:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond When, in history, when the state did not embrace Catholicism, did it refrain from persecuting Catholics?
September 25 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Here, mostly.
September 25 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Almost entirely
September 25 at 9:20pm · Like
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Joel HF If someone were reading this they would conclude that TAC was made up of reactionary traddy Catholic types (i.e. illiberal Leo XIII types), and protestants. Plus one lone, long-suffering Americanist.
This isn't my memory of the make-up of the school.
September 25 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe In fact, why not go for it-- We haven't persecuted you at all ever!
September 25 at 9:21pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The whole history of the West involves the working out of the dynamic of Church and State both in theory and in practice. It has been perfected in theory. Practice is admittedly messier, but we would no doubt look at history differently based on the different principles we embrace.
September 25 at 9:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF, that's because you are a snob and only remember the people you liked, and probably also the people you really hated
September 25 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think you are dead wrong about America. The persecution here is brutal precisely because it is subtle and indirect. It has seduced American Catholics to build the pyramids without having to hold a spear to their back by convincing them of the very things you believe.
September 25 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, "perfected in theory" sounds completely meaningless to me if it's never been practiced.
September 25 at 9:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, the persecution is brutal because it's not brutal?
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Without theory one cannot even meaningfully distinguish between theory and practice. How then can theory be meaningless?
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You can't possibly know if an essentially political theory is perfect if it's never been put into practice
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, that's just how politics works
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Jeffry's point about persecution is good. Aside from Catholicism you find few persecutions or religious wars.
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Somebody help me out here, Matthew J. Peterson maybe?
September 25 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. There is clarity when one knows who the enemy is. When meaningful distinctions are blurred, there is a loss of intelligibility that is utterly destructive of human life.
September 25 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds like the persecution isn't brutal because it isn't persecution
September 25 at 9:26pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is persecution of the most deadly kind. It kills souls.
September 25 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe communism sounded pretty perfect in theory, right? But then, so many famines!
September 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Joel HF I was also somewhat bored by political philosophy at the time. But there were more Burkes than Thomases, iirc.
September 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're completely eviscerating the definition of persecution
September 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Never sounded perfect, or anywhere near perfect in theory.
September 25 at 9:27pm · Like
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Joel HF Communism did *not* sound perfect in theory. It sounded deadly deadly dull at best.
September 25 at 9:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I was pretty sure you would say that.
September 25 at 9:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No, I am speaking of real persecution. Just as Mother Teresa was speaking of real poverty when she looked at the modern West.
September 25 at 9:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know what you're talking about.
September 25 at 9:28pm · Like
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Joel HF (Because I still haven't forgiven Das Kapital for boring my socks off.)
September 25 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Spiritual poverty. Spiritual persecution.
September 25 at 9:29pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Peterson, the lone long suffering Americanist. Epic. Can we get an epithet from that?
September 25 at 9:30pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Are you saying it's persecution when people go around not believing in the Church and being relativists?
September 25 at 9:29pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Matthew George Dolan
September 25 at 9:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't even know where to start. I try to give much more than I can time wise.
The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment".
Blaming Madison for the fact that America was populated by Protestants who understandably said "let's call this off as far as the federal government goes because we don't want bloodshed" strikes me as illogical, ungrateful, and outright absurd.
September 25 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I am saying it is persecution when the state systematically denatures men's souls. It is not just religious truth that is stripped away, but also the capacity to reason about nature.
September 25 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe "systematically denatures men's souls"-- you are going to have to say what you mean by that.
September 25 at 9:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah! What Matthew J. Peterson said!
September 25 at 9:32pm · Like
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Joel HF Whatever the path and cause, all believers* in Christ are persecuted, albeit subtly and perhaps mildly, in America today.
*by which I mean Catholics and protestants whose beliefs are in line with historical protestant beliefs.
September 25 at 9:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I can explain over and over again: faced with radical democratic majorities in the states dictating what was right and wrong and committing acts of injustice, Madison and friends see the need for an overarching government over the states.
You want to blame the existence of that government for moral relativism when Madison was expressly trying to prevent majoritarianism in respect to justice. Mitigating democracy with elements of aristocracy.
September 25 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I like the rotten TAC topic more...
September 25 at 9:34pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Man this thing moves fast. Just one more whack at this and then you all can return to whatever you were doing. I don't know whether it really is the case that most of the students applying and being accepted are alumni kids. There certainly seem to be a lot of them, but I also think the school's reputation has spread a lot since I applied. I was the first person in my family to hear of the school. Those who just don't apply in time can always wait a year. I did that myself- I worked for a year after deciding to come and hearing the class was full, and waited. Another point... I think it would be very hard to maintain the actual balance we have in classes if we tried to do it deliberately with all the applications in front of us at once. What are you going to do, look at a strong applicant with good grades and a weaker applicant who still is capable and say, we need a dumb one- so that's an arbitrary no to the smart one. She will never know why we said know, and she will have the same toss-up to face next year, but we need someone dumber. I can't see it happening that way. Also, I can't imagine anything worse than a room with 17 big talkers. It would not work. It's not the Thread.... class doesn't go on forever, there isn't a mechanism that makes everyone's comments show up separated and readable. You NEED the quiet ones to allow a conversation to even happen with that many people. And then you need the confused ones to get the others to explain things again and again, making it clearer every time to everyone and exposing holes in the accounts proposed.
September 25 at 9:34pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Smart and talkative aren't convertible. Look at me, I wouldn't shut up. I'd say the classmates whose opinions I valued most ranged from quiet to talkative.
September 25 at 9:37pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger tNET > TAC
September 25 at 9:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Accepting the best students isn't going to mean that all the students are talkers, though. A lot of good, conscientious students don't talk very much, but they do the reading carefully and they contribute.
September 25 at 9:37pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe jinx, Joel HF
September 25 at 9:37pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner That's a good point. But how much they will talk is hard to tell on paper.
September 25 at 9:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And no one here is knowledgeable or capable of dealing with the historical facts on the ground. Facts don't matter here.
Thanks to Madison you and the schools you've taught at exist. You want to blame the Constitution for the problems of the Church in America? This is why we fail.
They allow for deliberation. Imagine a Roman martyr listening to this?!? Hah. "Yes, yes, you have it so hard. Yes, it's the Constitution's fault that the largest cradle to PhD Catholic education system on watch ever has corrupted itself. Yes. Tell me more about how you don't have the liberty and resources you need?!"
September 25 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, that's true, but it is easier to tell how well they would do the readings, how able they would be to do a prop, etc
September 25 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson St. Paul: "I was going to preach here but I see all the gods and too many factions...hold on - I need to go get the government on my side first."
September 25 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The existence of us, and the schools we teach at, and the schools at which we were educated, is only a good per accidens, dude
September 25 at 9:39pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner But won't that just get you the smart ones? And then you have a deficit of less bright, which can actually be an asset.
September 25 at 9:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Katherine Gardner (I mean the less bright can be an asset to the bright.)
September 25 at 9:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This entire smart and not smart concept seems pretty two dimensional to me.
I teach and have been around the top 2-3% of students in the nation and some talk and some don't and they are all very different.
September 25 at 9:40pm · Like · 5
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Katherine Gardner Yeah I know it's the worst wording... I can't think and type fast enough to be nuanced on this thing.
September 25 at 9:41pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson someday I would like to meet you and shake your hand, sir.
September 25 at 9:41pm · Like
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Joel HF Sean Collins once told me that he didn't say a word, a single word, in class until his Junior year.
September 25 at 9:41pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner I mean there is a range of ability, personality, style of contribution... and this variety is good for everyone, and it happens naturally with rolling admissions, and it would be hard to deliberately reproduce.
September 25 at 9:42pm · Like
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Julie Ponzi I was thinking about TAC for my kids. But you people are scaring me.
September 25 at 9:43pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Also, I should say that my application was the all over the map application of an unschooled weirdo, so I should probably be glad of some leniency in the admissions process
September 25 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The less bright as an assert to the bright has always sounded strange to me - get the general point. I mean, in a way I really want to agree. But the thing is that any group will have differences and it just seems strange to say that those with less capability help in this way.
If smart students skip and move to fast, they're not really being very smart, are they?!?
September 25 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner 'smart' and 'bright' and 'quiet' are just place holders for the real differences because I can;t name them easily
September 25 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And Joel HF: do you think I'm an Americanist?!?
September 25 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm saying, there are a lot of students at TAC who aren't really contributing to the program, mostly by not engaging with the readings or in seminar. Abolishing rolling admission could help with that problem
September 25 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner That's all I mean... if you think rolling admissions is bad because it keeps out the people you would judge on paper to be 'smarter' or something equally discernable from, well, applications, my guess is that statistically you will probably omit people whose abilities don't make for an impressive application, bt are essential.
September 25 at 9:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Katherine Gardner I don't know if it could- how can you tell if they will read or not from the application? Maybe sometimes you can but no one says that in an essay.
September 25 at 9:46pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, you should know not to take my FB persona too seriously. I also accuse you of being a Straussian, which you've denied many times. After all, it wouldn't be salutary for TACers to think of you that way!
September 25 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Julie Ponzi: please, please, please - this is not a representative sample! - but Katherine Gardner is a tutor I wish I had when I was there. And her point is serious - TAC doesn't have this asinine, servile type A who will go and become an unoriginal slave for Goldman problem. Which is cool.
September 25 at 9:46pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine-- that's a fair point.
September 25 at 9:46pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Is it the rolling admissions that is the problem or simply that the admission standards have dropped? (But I think they were raised again since my class 2012 had such a huge drop out compared to the classes after it)
September 25 at 9:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Madison, following Locke, wanted the state to concentrate on the good of the body and move the good of the soul into the private realm. As understandable and appealing as that may have been given the dangers of religious factions, etc., his plan and rationale made life worse. As his letter to Jefferson reveals, Madison feared an established religion more than anything else. By effectively banishing false religions from the public realm so that they could not inflame the hearts of men, he simultaneously banished the true religion from the public realm where it rightly belongs so that it can best be enshrined in the souls of men. The price of "peace" as the world knows it was purchased at the expense of the true peace of Christ. The bargain was a spiritual disaster the effects of which have infected the entire world with a spiritual disease, much like the disease Dostoevsky describes in Raskolnikov's dream in Crime and Punishment. It is the nightmare of the Enlightenment. Welcome to the jungle.
September 25 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Besides, Matthew J. Peterson, isn't the standard response to deny the existence of Americanism tout court?
September 25 at 9:48pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson OK - Joel HF - by these accusations drawing out my denial you help me keep my cover.
September 25 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe There is also the problem of attrition that Lauren mentions. TAC shouldn't let in so many kids who just can't do the program
September 25 at 9:47pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Why does Locke keep getting in the way of critiquing the admissions office
September 25 at 9:48pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: What philosopher would've wanted the federal government to deal with last end of man and morals in any sort of serious or direct way?!?
September 25 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Katherine Gardner: I can see how you might have misgivings about how the total-applicant-pool method would work; I'm not sure how the particulars would work, either. But why do you think rolling admissions is *better*? Just because it's random?
September 25 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner I suppose that may be true... I guess my experience of admissions at other schools just makes that problem at TAC look very small.
September 25 at 9:49pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You wanted the US Protestant sects to fight each other and outlaw Catholicism from these shores?
September 25 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Also, sometimes turning people down makes them work harder to get in which does show something about the work they will do to get through the program You are allowed to challenge the outcome
September 25 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't buy the argument that things are so much worse now than they were in the Middle Ages, or whatever mythical time Jeffrey Bond is referring to when the state took good care of men's souls.
September 25 at 9:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Katherine Gardner: what problems if you can speak of them?
I still don't buy quite buy it re TAC, but I'm open.
September 25 at 9:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine is in the honeymoon phase of her tutor-hood, which is right and good.
September 25 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Katherine Gardner: from what little I know of you I thank God you are there!
September 25 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe: yeah, all those years of rolling admissions and they still let in people who obviously are going to struggle to pass--you can spot them from day one. And they aren't even all that enthusiastic, some of them. There are also people who slip through the cracks and really shouldn't pass, but do, because approaches vary from tutor to tutor. And I'm not even talking about people who are really good at everything but Latin or math. I'm talking about people who couldn't produce an intelligible synopsis of what they had studied in *any* of their classes.
September 25 at 9:53pm · Like · 4
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Katherine Gardner Well, maybe that's true, Sam, and thanks for that, Matthew. I am new and I don't have tons of experience with how TAC does things yet, but after seeing the degree to which the last school at which I taught admitted students not remotely fi for the program out of a desire to stay afloat, the student body at TAC looks like a dream. SO few there who aren't interested or capable. So few.
September 25 at 9:54pm · Like · 6
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think if you were all on my admissions board I wouldn't of had a chance at getting into the program
September 25 at 9:54pm · Unlike · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick (I do think admissions has been better since my class... But I mean we lost a huge percentage freshmen year sooooo yeeeeah)
September 25 at 9:55pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner No place is perfect but a little perspective can be good.
September 25 at 9:55pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--surely, at the very least, people are more confused w/r/t morality today than they were in the middle ages, or heck even the 19th century.
September 25 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Locke not only destroyed Western civilization, he also got in the way of TAC admissions policy. That is serious persecution.
September 25 at 9:55pm · Like · 8
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Joel HF People who preach "toleration" are never going to be inclined to tolerate those who tell them that what they tolerate is sin and is bad for their souls, as far as I can tell. At least, as far as I can tell.
September 25 at 9:56pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Let's talk about the body, the commercial city: is the aquisitive virtue a new find?
September 25 at 9:57pm · Like
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Ken Masugi Locke saved western civilization--what has TAC done lately?
September 25 at 9:57pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Joel - "w/r/t" - been reading some DFW, eh?
September 25 at 9:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine, sorry, I didn't mean my honeymoon comment to sound dismissive of your points. They're good points. : )
September 25 at 9:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond We must have a discussion on the American cave. Do you pro-Madison folks recognize such a thing? If the shadows on the wall of the American cave don't come from Madison, from whence do they come?
September 25 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict There is no cave. 'Tis but a cave within a cave.
September 25 at 9:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know. If Alexander VI were my pope I'd be pretty confused about morality.
September 25 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Things fall apart. The cave cannot hold.
September 25 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Alexander VI didn't teach heresy. He lived immorally. Very different problem.
September 25 at 10:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF People are confused about morality w/ Fancis as Pope but who am I to judge?
September 25 at 10:01pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Joel HF Sorry! Just a joke!
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's actually a very similar problem
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe People might be more confused about morality, but I don't think they're any less moral in practice.
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Teaching heresy and living immorally are not similar at all.
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger every society has its cave, some darker and deeper. What is ours?
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The confusion they cause in the faithful is very similar
September 25 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner No, I get it. I sound like a non-critical groupie. But I have been to a LOT of colleges (St. Anselm, TAC, Aquinas College, the ITI, and Ave Maria), and have had siblings at many more (Washington University, Harvard, Boston College, ND, Minnesota State, CUA, St John's Annapolis, Santa Croce). And I have never seen one more self-aware of the good it aims at, more careful to make thoughtful judgements about which goods to let go and which not to compromise on, or one that is accomplishing what it claims to so consistently.
September 25 at 10:02pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict On what are you basing that claim?
September 25 at 10:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How are you supposed to take moral teachings seriously if your teachers don't take them seriously?
September 25 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Are you asking that question with a 21st century mind?
September 25 at 10:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine-- I completely agree with that, and I have a lot of experience with academia, too, at this point
September 25 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Isak, I'm trying to imagine the kind of person I might be in midieval France or wherever. So, if I'm not already dead from childbirth (probably would be), then I'm a completely uneducated mother of many, trying to live well but confronted by hypocrisy in the institution I'm supposed to trust.
September 25 at 10:05pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF I think they are worse than merely confused. They condone what were traditionally thought of as perversions, right? And try telling them about virtue and teleology--this is NOT tolerated because it is seen as bigotry. This seems, if not new, then at least so rare that you have to go back a long way to find examples of it.
September 25 at 10:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Our cave is the darkest and deepest of all because Americans are more convinced than any people anywhere that they are free--a sure sign that they are in the cave. Everyone say it all together, "We are free!" "We think for ourselves!" "We are individuals!"
September 25 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner I am not claiming it does everything right, of course. It seemed to me that the rolling admissions thing worked well and acknowledged what the school offers as a common good to be sought by any comers who were ready for it, and wanted to hear and consider the objections.
September 25 at 10:05pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner OK, done for now. Cannot read and type fast enough. Long live the Thread!
September 25 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No! Don't leave!
September 25 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Must prep for class!
September 25 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe All right, fine. See you soon!
September 25 at 10:07pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Which Monday is it?
September 25 at 10:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe October 27th
September 25 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Cave life rules:
1. Do not make fun of the shadows on the wall.
September 25 at 10:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha, your vision of the world pre-America is based on American propaganda. Do you really think the contemporary world sets the standard for happiness?
September 25 at 10:08pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe No, I don't. My vision of the world pre-America is actually based on reading a lot of history and literature.
September 25 at 10:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 2. NEVER tell inhabitants they are cave dwellers.
September 25 at 10:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But I am 100% certain I'd rather live my life now than any other time in history.
September 25 at 10:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond 3. NEVER point out the contradictions in Madison's writings.
September 25 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I would have preferred to die at Thermopylae.
September 25 at 10:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger 3. Reverence the cave founders always and praise the craftsmanship of their freedom chains.
September 25 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, yeah, we're very tolerant of sexual perversion these days. That's terrible. But we're not tolerant of violence against children anymore. We're not tolerant of violence against women. We're not tolerant of vice and hypocrisy and corruption in the clergy
September 25 at 10:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Seriously? Wouldn't you just have gone to hell?
September 25 at 10:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or maybe limbo, if you were really, really good?
September 25 at 10:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond There has never been greater violence against children. Give 'em an iPad.
September 25 at 10:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? Seriously?
September 25 at 10:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Seriously.
September 25 at 10:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Let's start with abortion and go from there.
September 25 at 10:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok. Fair enough. We're no longer tolerant of violence against children who are born.
September 25 at 10:15pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Not so.
September 25 at 10:15pm · Like
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Joel HF I dunno. I think the 20th century has some of the worst violence against children known to man--and that's excluding abortion.
September 25 at 10:15pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger 4. Point out the truth that all our ancestors were cave men and cave dwellers (shadows that depict slavery, women's oppression' horrible monarchs, child abuse and homophobia except the enlighted Spartan lover warriors etc.)
September 25 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's true, I'm talking about in America
September 25 at 10:15pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed.
September 25 at 10:15pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You don't see the spiritual war waged against the family, children being the greatest victims?
September 25 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think the most agreement here is Jeffrey Bond and others and myself when it comes to the evils we do face, and the problems of contemporary society.
September 25 at 10:17pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think it's unique to this era. I don't think it's worse in this era than other eras. And I think as a society, we are less tolerant of violence against (born) children.
September 25 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond And American is exporting that spiritual war abroad as it compels the rest of the world to embrace its anti-principles.
September 25 at 10:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger 5. Yell the freedom cry of Caliban loudest. This gets many cave brownie points and qualifies you for cave leader.
September 25 at 10:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I agree about the evils, but I think this rosy nostalgia for a better time when the church was looking out for souls is revisionist nonsense.
September 25 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It is not about nostalgia. It is an argument about reality.
September 25 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Katherine Gardner - thank you so much for these comments above. I need them. They mean much.
September 25 at 10:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Uh, plenty of times similar re violence against children.
September 25 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But they cared a lot about their common good in Sparta. And Rome.
September 25 at 10:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond 20th century violence against man, woman and child is unprecedented. How do the progressivists account for it?
September 25 at 10:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Who's a progressive, here?
September 25 at 10:24pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You, by your own admission
September 25 at 10:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah - it stems from philosophies that erect man as god.
September 25 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Why are supporters of Madison called to account for crimes of Socialists and Communists and Totalitarians?
September 25 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Because Madison opened the door and let them in.
September 25 at 10:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- really? When did I say that?
September 25 at 10:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson w
See Translation
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson t
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson f
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The Catholic Church opened the door, by screwing up so badly when it was in charge
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like
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Joel HF The founders were hypocritical racists.
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Spartan infanticide was evil. But it made more sense than our version. The state threw the weak off the cliffs. We grant that "power" to the individual in the name of "privacy."
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley Are you sure you actually did get in the program, Lauren? Maybe that diploma was just a likeness of a diploma.
September 25 at 10:26pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict *ahem* a SHADOW of a likeness of a diploma.
September 25 at 10:27pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson We have blood on our hands, but thankfully we won this century and not the others – the best by far of an imperfect bunch.
September 25 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe They totally were, Joel, but they had some good ideas about how to construct a government
September 25 at 10:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley I like the rolling admission scheme, for much the same reasons as Katherine is articulating: especially since it encourages evaluating each application on its own merits rather than by comparison to others. (And I missed the class I began my application for because of this policy).
September 25 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond: right - so better in your mind if the state sanctions and forces child sacrifice to it rather than letting it hang on individuals?!?
September 25 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley As far as the "people you know will drop out": several of those people in my class would have looked great on paper.
September 25 at 10:30pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In Sparta a Catholic would have to leave or eventually be slain, no doubt.
September 25 at 10:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Evil either way. But Sparta had a criterion that limited this evil. Our version knows no limits. The Spartans, for all their flaws, would not have decimated their own population.
September 25 at 10:31pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sure they would, if a tenth of the population had birth defects.
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond A Catholic in Sparta would know the enemy. A Catholic in America embraces the enemy.
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF On the backs of oppressed slaves? Because I don't see how Jefferson's or Madison's ideas work without slavery. Well, capitalism exports it, I suppose.
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And the wind shall say, here were decent godless people...
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Maybe slightly hyperbolic.
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And it is much worse to force a mother to kill her baby than to allow a mother to kill her baby.
September 25 at 10:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict ^This is a horrific statement
September 25 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Which one?
September 25 at 10:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Gently incentivize is what we do in our country.
September 25 at 10:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I meant yours, but I should have asked for a clarification first. Worse for whom?
September 25 at 10:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe for mothers.
September 25 at 10:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Worse for the one permitting or forcing, I presume
September 25 at 10:34pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF We don't "allow" abortion in this country. At the federal level we encourage it, particularly for the poor. The states have various approaches.
September 25 at 10:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It is worse for the mother to freely and without coercion choose abortion, than to do so under duress
September 25 at 10:35pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You really think it is better for a mother to be allowed to kill her own child than to be forced to kill her own child?!?!?!
September 25 at 10:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Of course I do.
September 25 at 10:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I really have no idea why this is so controversial.
September 25 at 10:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Cause to do evil is worse than to suffer it, and to the degree that one is coerced, it is involuntary
September 25 at 10:35pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Well, in Sparta the child was taken from the mother and killed if it was defective. This is evil. But the mother killing her own child is much worse.
September 25 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Most mothers aren't choosing abortion "freely" really. I mean, they don't have a gun to their head, but still.
September 25 at 10:37pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I think some people are considering individual guilt while others are considering the just order of the community
September 25 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz IOW, the moral evil of a woman who, without duress, chooses abortion is greater than the suffering of injustice on her prt by being coerced
September 25 at 10:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Abortion is hidden. the mother who kills her child with full knowledge of what she is doing is very rare
September 25 at 10:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You would elevate the freedom of choice for the mother above the mother's blamelessness if forced?!?!?!
September 25 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I would rather live in a state where I was allowed to have an abortion than in one where I might one day be forced to kill my child
September 25 at 10:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I would say that a society that forces abortions / infanticides is a worse society than one that merely permits them.
September 25 at 10:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But a woman who freely choose abortion/infanticide is more guilty than one who chooses those under duress.
September 25 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I am shocked that that is controversial...even Socrates saw that doing evil is worse than suffering it.
Even if one grants, arguendo, that there is usually some involuntariness due to ignorance, well ignorance is a sin. And even if the ignorance is inculpable, it takes the nature of a punishment
September 25 at 10:38pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, and our society is closer to Sparta than I initially admitted, because Joel's point about incentivization is true
September 25 at 10:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict Their only monument the asphalt road...
September 25 at 10:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond And a thousand lost golf balls
September 25 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Langley hit it on the head. The evil for this woman is greater in choosing evil. The evil of society in general is greater in forcing it
September 25 at 10:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley And I think Joshua and Samantha are talking past each other.
September 25 at 10:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Listen, I'm speaking as a mother here. I would probably do any evil to prevent any of my children being killed. The evil of being forced to expose one of my babies is incalculably horrifying to me
September 25 at 10:39pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeffrey Bond But not a regime that allows you to murder your child at your convenience?
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And you think that is an attitude to defend? Many might act that way, but we would say that is because we are sinful creatures
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But you still think the freedom for mothers to do it themselves is better?
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's horrifying to me to, but the other is worse
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yes.
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The ancient Greeks had some ... population problems, no? Bwhaha
September 25 at 10:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I actually worry about today is forced sterilization for poor people and criminals.
September 25 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond And sterilization of women in the third world
September 25 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond under the guise of helping them.
September 25 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It has happened from time to time in the 20th century, and there seems to be a vocal group of people that are pushing it.
September 25 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The "this regime is more evil than that regime" is a pointless exercise unless it relates to larger points.
September 25 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The U.N. with America leading the way
September 25 at 10:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But if you want to play that game it is a game of comparison and what is sanctioned and what is not.
September 25 at 10:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I don't know why these points are being used against me. I'm horrified by all those things.
September 25 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It is interesting that opposition to U.N. population control is the one thing that brings together the Catholics and the Muslims.
September 25 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And in that comparative the America as the Great Satan bit falls flat for me.
September 25 at 10:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley It is interesting that "social issues" in a broad sense are common ground for Catholics and Muslims (excepting certain methods of evangelization and such).
September 25 at 10:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But regardless, if you want to talk about solutions, I'm interested. I'm happy for what Madison gave me in that respect.
September 25 at 10:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz I don't know if that attitude is to be defended or not, but it's how God made mothers and I wouldn't try to fight it.
September 25 at 10:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have a general principle as a young man to not get into particulars in political or ethical matters.
September 25 at 10:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley So, no solutions from me, Matthew J. Peterson
September 25 at 10:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Knock it off with the prudence, Ed.
September 25 at 10:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, a few points on previous comments
1. Whatever Locke held, and whatever Madison held, sometimes the power of a principle extends beyond the provincialism of its author. Locke would exclude Catholics from toleration. Madison, in the Detach Memoranda isn't exactly a shining example of religious liberty either (he being against the freedom of Churches, as corporate entities, and indeed against their incorporation...individuals only. Against chaplains in the military too)
But the actual law of the 1st amendment takes a life of its own, one far better, perhaps, than intended by some of the founders
2. Alexander VI was not as bad a portrayed in history. We repeat legends and calumnies against him all the time. The real Alexander was no shining eample of holiness, but the debauchery he is often accused of is largely mythological
Benedict IX really should be the bad pope to cite against us!
3. The Church holds that societies and states, qua societies and states, must recognize and submit to the reign of Christ. But we should also be ready to admit that this submission has rarely been achieved in history even when the state de iure professed such submission. Still we should work for its real accomplishment, true conversion to Christ.
September 25 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Don't let Aristotle scare you away, Edward.
September 25 at 10:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe A society in which I was at serious risk of having a baby taken from me and killed is a society I would rather die than live in. Seriously, I think if I were given the choice I would simply rather not live. America, I can live in. That's all I was trying to say.
September 25 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, God clearly does not want us to do evil that good may come.He didn't make mothers that way. Sorry, I don't buy that. Perhaps the strong natural inclinations He did create them with, to defend their children, etc. But it is only concupiscence that corrupt that into inordinately loving them so as to prefer them against God, which is what doing evil for them would entail.
September 25 at 10:48pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I can agree with Mrs. Cohoe's last statement. The social order would be worse and more evil, I think we can all agree with that. And the evil to mothers who would not destroy their children worse.
September 25 at 10:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha, when the Turks captured Bulgaria they began a brutal campaign to convert the natives to Islam. They lined families up on bridges and took them one by one, demanding their conversion or their heads. Their heads fell by the hundreds into the rivers. Women would encourage their own children to face the blade first, to ensure them the Kingdom before bowing their own necks.
September 25 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Joshua, I obviously agree with point 3. Point 2 I cannot say. As for Point 1, I think the First Amendment, whatever the intention of its creators--and they had different aims that led to it as a sort of compromise--has been a disaster.
September 25 at 10:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- I've read those kinds of stories and I really can't think about them. That's all.
September 25 at 10:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But you can stomach the contemplation of a regime that allows, even encourages mothers to murder their own babies for the sake of convenience?
September 25 at 10:55pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What would not having the first amendment have changed? It's meaning was perverted and misused, as the Feds feared. But that was on account of prots fighting Catholics and the rise of new ideas in Merica.
September 25 at 10:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Edward Langley. we want data
September 25 at 10:55pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe How did this turn into accusations that I'm somehow ok with abortion?? I can live in this country. So, presumably, can you.
September 25 at 10:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhaha. The hermeneutic of inquisition and critique.
September 25 at 10:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You are putting words in my mouth. I never accused you of being okay with abortion.
September 25 at 10:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, but you've got a tone, young man.
September 25 at 10:57pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I would rather live in a regime that allows mothers to abort their babies, than one in which I might be in danger of allowing my baby to be murdered.
September 25 at 10:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, that escalated quickly
September 25 at 10:59pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond The First Amendment enshrines the contradiction of Locke's doctrine of toleration. As such, it actually establishes a pseudo religion while insisting that no religion can be established. As the law of the land, it forms souls according to its vision of religious indifferentism. Most Catholics place this pseudo dogma above the teachings of the Church. Or rather, they reinterpret Catholicism to mean what the First Amendments means.
September 25 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Begging your pardon ma'am, but what happens to the mother's soul in either case?
September 25 at 10:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Does anyone here actually think any of these founder cats would be cool with the last century of moral libertarianism?
September 25 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Jeffrey, Joshua' point one is simply to detach Madison from the law written. He makes no judgement regarding religious liberty. He is being more prudent than Edward perhaps.
September 25 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Marie Pitt-Payne Has anyone seen this documentary? At least watch the trailer... the three deadliest words in the world = "It's a girl"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISme5-9orR0
September 25 at 11:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Terrible, bad thing happen to the mother's soul in both cases
September 25 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Is it worse to commit evil or suffer evil? Simple question, ma'am.
September 25 at 11:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Madison actually ate babies for breakfast. Chubby slave babies from Jefferson's plantations.
September 25 at 11:01pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe But, in the case of abortion, the guilt is almost always mitigated by a lack of full understanding of what is being done
September 25 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^and violence from friends/family/boyfriend
September 25 at 11:01pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And, by the way, the only reason I'm still on this thread tonight is because my wife is at Jimmy Kimmel live watching this super trendy irish band called The Script play music because my little sister asked her to go, not because she even knew who the band was.
September 25 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I know I brought it upon myself, but you can quit with the ma'am now
September 25 at 11:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes ma'am
September 25 at 11:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think anyone advocating for ye olde good olde days should be bringing up slavery.
September 25 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Heh.
September 25 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Who is advocating for "the good old days?"
September 25 at 11:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and seriously, if we take Church documents seriously about the numerous reforms proposed for the clergy throughout history thinks that the average Catholic well taught and well spiritually cared for. That's just a bunch of hooey.
September 25 at 11:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is impossible to imagine those men in powdered wigs walking around in the Village. No doubt anyone from any time launched forward into the future would be in shock--even Charlton Heston. But it is likely, as you suggest, that they would be shocked out of their stockings.
September 25 at 11:03pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And you know how the song goes - "in olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking but now God knoooooooows - anything gooooooes!!"
September 25 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think it is clear, and tNET has lead us to this, that the only political answer is perpetual revolution.
LONG LIVE THE SOVIET!
September 25 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, again, here we are. Waddya wanna do now?
Keep teaching. I love you people. But what do yah sugges.
September 25 at 11:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger mb. What did you try to say?
September 25 at 11:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perpetual revolution
September 25 at 11:05pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Old authors who all once knew better words now only use four-letter words, writing prose, anything goes!
September 25 at 11:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- in both states, terrible evil is being done. I would rather be allowed to do a certain evil, that I would never do, than be forced to suffer state-sanctioned murder of my baby. I mean, I still don't see why this is so controversial
September 25 at 11:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger no before that
September 25 at 11:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Many local councils and synods throughout Church history have been about corrective measures for unholy, untrained, or otherwise clergymen. Let's not rosy the past up too much now folks.
September 25 at 11:08pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe THANK you.
September 25 at 11:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see also "why can't bishop's bastards inherit sees"
September 25 at 11:10pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia miss me?
September 25 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Ladies and gents, it has been a pleasure to spend the evening with you, but I will pay dearly in the morning. No regrets, of course. We must all give our best to the Thread.
September 25 at 11:10pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe I did, actually
September 25 at 11:10pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia thanks for your thoughts, Dr. Bond
September 25 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Good night, Dr. Bond. Thanks for coming when I summoned you.
September 25 at 11:11pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Drop the "Dr" folks. Just call me "Space man". God bless us all.
September 25 at 11:11pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Nope, let's be formal, right Dr Peterson
September 25 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I have read those, Michael. I' m not nostalgic (ok a little). I'm apoplectic
September 25 at 11:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, to be clear, I agree in principle that it's better to suffer evil than to do evil. I don't actually think that is an argument that exposing infants is better than abortion.
September 25 at 11:13pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well Jefferson and Madison both predicted we would all be unitarians by the mid 19th century..Jeffrey Bond. I think the actual playing out of the 1st amendment has been, on the whole better, than it could have been.
My judgment on religious liberty, I forgot, is not known to you. I got some ire before for my criticism of the USCCB's campaign here
Religious liberty is ultimately not fully coherent. And we see the conflict in conflicting approaches by SCOTUS (compare Yoder to Employment v. Smith). And while we have granted far more standing to Churches than Madison would like, there is still the conflict over who possesses liberty, a church or the individuals? Because they sometimes conflict.
The American Myth of Religious Freedom by Craycraft does a good job documenting the dissonance, and Madison's views. But I think the actual law, as received in a body of citizens at once more conservative and religious than many of the Fathers, is a little better than the picture he portrays. Even if one cannot take religious liberty as a real principle, in the context of a society that does not submit to Christ, perhaps the somewhat contrived application of it, in the context of "ordered liberty," does more good than harm given our actual political reality.
September 25 at 11:13pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Don't call me Dr.; can't help it if I had to receive the mark of the beast.
Someday I hope to have booze with Jeffrey Bond.
September 25 at 11:15pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson My little boys are begging me to read this book to them, so I must go:
September 25 at 11:16pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman Joel HF ignoring actuaI things said by and done by Madison and Jefferson and the actuaI cIimate of a worId with essentiaIIy 100% racism. Even IincoIn was a racist. Not sure you couId find from the 1700s that thought bIacs were equaI.
September 25 at 11:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua than who "portrays"? Amtecedents. Member?
September 25 at 11:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The American Myth of Religious Freedom by Craycraft, which was the antecedent in that paragraph...I was both plugging it and criticizing it at the same time
September 25 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Peterson, come to the Odyssey reading next summer in Chicago
September 25 at 11:20pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger just figured that out. sorry.
September 25 at 11:22pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger And they thought it was dead.
September 25 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia But I guess the problem I have with the U-S-A!! U-S-A!! types is that it is really an accident of birth that anyone is born anywhere. The difference being that people who are proud of being (say) German in Germany have a "natio" and "lingua" that isn't the same as a 'Merican.
September 25 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's really just elitism on my part. Patriotism is too close to nationalism, and in a country with no shared "natio" it is meaningless
September 25 at 11:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know what happened here tonight. I thought I was trying to defend religious liberty, and argue that state supported churches were a bad thing, historically. Then I'm was being told I need to encourage my children to be beheaded and people are freaking out about abortion.
September 25 at 11:27pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger what's a nacho?
September 25 at 11:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Patriotism is like filial piety. It's accidental, but it's still good to love your country and your parents. It's even good to have pride in them.
September 25 at 11:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia not if your countrymen aren't the same as you.
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger WHAT is wrong with you, Samantha?
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I agree with the above ^ True patriotism is not about an ideology, but about te common soil and society, and the common good amongst you
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Why not? You still have shared institutions, national history.
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no I don't
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz By above I meant Mrs. Cohoe.
September 25 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Cause you're a special, self-invented snowflake, yes?
September 25 at 11:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia National history? Genocide of the indigenous population, slavery, immigrant virtual slavery, child labor, crony capitalism.... stop me when I get to something you guys like
September 25 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I agree with the Ashman hater.
September 25 at 11:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, ok, a lot of it's pretty horrible, but it's still our history
September 25 at 11:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia YOUR history. my family immigrated later
September 25 at 11:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But natio is already a weakened bond and prone to false patriotism. But I agree with Beitia otherwise ( and Samantha)
September 25 at 11:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How can you agree with both of us?
September 25 at 11:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET takes synthesis and antithesis and overcomes it all
September 25 at 11:34pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman ....except for the fact that pretty much every other country was more horribIe and the US reaIIy pushed freedom, Iiberty, naturaI rights and the modernization of government to unprecedented areas.
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe OK, but you grew up here. You benefitted from our institutions.
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and immigration is part of our natio
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe a huge part, in fact
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia then it is a really weak sense of natio
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman A criticaI part.
September 25 at 11:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Whether your ancestors came over on the Mayflower (like MINE did) or later, on some boat from the continent
September 25 at 11:36pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I dont think Beitia is focusing on the right things.
September 25 at 11:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What are the positive as they say things we have in common?
September 25 at 11:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz How about going to the same elementary school, singing What a child this is in the (public school) Christmas pangeant. How about my great uncle being big into early hotrods, and a big name in the circle? Why does it have to only be the big things in history when we speak of common history?
How about the death of my great uncle on Tarawa? And his sparing of a Japanese soldier in a previous battle...one he recognized as a fellow student from his California HS who had been conscripted while visiting relatives in Japan?
I am not a nationalist. Nationalism is part and parcel of modernity, I know. But I don't follow that modern idea. My country is my country, regardless of any attribution of nationality. We in fact live in one society, and even if only in mourning over it, I am connected to it.
September 25 at 11:37pm · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe It might be weak, but it's there. I feel the absence of it every time I go to Canada
September 25 at 11:37pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ashman I mean, if you can't give the US some credit for being Iess shitty that most any country in the previous miIIenium......
September 25 at 11:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwLWNXFH2rg
Homer Simpson - USA
Homer Simpson - USA
YOUTUBE.COM
September 25 at 11:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Joshua, I think I just don't have the same tie to the land you've got
September 25 at 11:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But truly, you don't have to think the US *is* any better than any other country to feel patriotism
September 25 at 11:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger it is the little things too that i am talking about, Joshua.
September 25 at 11:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia perpetual revolution, like I said
September 25 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- would you think it was impious of me if I started talking about my parents the way you're talking about America?
September 25 at 11:39pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia has anyone here read Nicholas Berdyaev's "The Russian Ideal"?
September 25 at 11:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha, you haven't met mine
September 25 at 11:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Au contraire, Michael, *you* haven't met *mine*
September 25 at 11:41pm · Like
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John Ashman NationaI preference is a good thing. If I say "Greece is the best because......" and you have good reasons, fantastic. But it becomes invaIid if you refuse to change preferences and move when another country surpasses your favorite. It sets you up as an awfuI consumer. And if you're a nation who doesn't want to attract more paying customers, and teII peopIe they can't come, then you're shitty at free marqet enterprise. And worse if you start shooting peopIe who want to move to teh competition.
September 25 at 11:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's just say filial piety is not one of my virtues
September 25 at 11:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Right, mine either, I'm trying to make an argument that we owe some small amount of respect to our country, as we do to our parents
September 25 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Not an uncriticaI, biased respect though.
September 25 at 11:42pm · Like
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John Ashman An appreciation.
September 25 at 11:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe A bit of bias is ok, I think.
September 25 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I need to go to bed.
September 25 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It's not even eleven yet!
September 25 at 11:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My kids will all be up before six, and they're all sick, and my husband has abandoned me
September 25 at 11:44pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman If it is conscious bias, because you enJoy it.
September 25 at 11:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I will be at work before six.....c'est la vie
September 25 at 11:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But at least tNET didn't abandon me.
September 25 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks tNET. Goodnight
September 25 at 11:45pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger perpetual revolution or constant change establishes a no country. Beitia's complaint is valid.
September 25 at 11:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To respond to Joshua, the hotrods are gone as the caroling of my youth. The California farms are no more.
September 25 at 11:48pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Absence of Americanism in Canada? Imagine that
I know what you mean though, Canada does lack the pride of a nation, however, it's people in general are more friendly (and how can you be proud of a country that's try to get a spoiled boy to hold the office of Prime Minister... Seriously!)
September 25 at 11:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger And what now binds us as a people? What customs? Or is it only a common core of beliefs?
September 25 at 11:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We carolled until 1998....and I still have family on farmland
September 25 at 11:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman A Iot of the Canadians I've met are pretty good at criticizing other countries though.
September 25 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my childhood in California was living with a grandparent in a trailer park in Anaheim. Buena Vista trailer park, to be exact. The happiest trailer park on earth
September 25 at 11:53pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But Beitia doesnt have that. I am in rural America and it is better here. Folks still carry traditions or try to graft them.
September 25 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Lauren Ogrodnick, Candians are not more friendly per se. They are generally more rural. Think of it this way, New Yorkers are thought of as rude, but all the little comon courtesies one might extend in a smaller town...imagine trying that when instead of interacting with a dozen people a day, you interact with thousands.
It is one thing to stop and let a car out of a parking lot in a small town, quite another to do that for every car that it might benefit in LA. What is 30 seconds inconvenience in one, is devastating traffic causing in another. I think a one one one comparison would have to be betwen similar demographics, rural to rural and so on
September 25 at 11:55pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia my first "I am not like these people" elitist moment came there.
I told a kid at the playground "Your grammar could use some work"
he responded with "well, your gramma's not so great either"
I was not like these men
September 25 at 11:56pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley And now for some trivia. There are official SI abbreviations for large groups of years: ka (kiloannus), Ma (megaannus) . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year#SI_prefix_multipliers
Year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A year (Old English gēar, Gothic jēr, Runic Jēran) is the orbital period of the Earth moving in its orbit around the...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 25 at 11:58pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia is it just me, or does that look like "mega anus"
September 25 at 11:59pm · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley Also, Pa (petaannus) stands for 10^15 years . . . my I aged when I became a father.
September 25 at 11:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia which is bizarre, because the so-called age of the universe is several orders of magnitude less that "pete's anus"
September 26 at 12:00am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Traffic is a bad example, people are bad drivers everywhere and people who try to be nice just cause more problems on the road
September 26 at 12:00am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Just got the kids down. Wife not back yet. Time for...Simpler Times:
September 26 at 12:01am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia there are people who are nice on the road (rough night on the south side tonight...)
September 26 at 12:01am · Like
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Edward Langley Lauren, it's not "people" who are bad drivers but "other people" that are bad drivers.
September 26 at 12:02am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger petannus and megaannus: sounds like it really hurts. Aint right that.
September 26 at 12:03am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick And why did this thread go crazy when I could finally put my baby down without her waking but was dead when I only had one arm available.
September 26 at 12:04am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially the dude in front of me the other night who was trying to take an unprotected left turn across a major street (New York Ave.) despite the "No turns" sign right next to the traffic light.
September 26 at 12:04am · Like
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Edward Langley The 25 cars behind me played a new symphony in response to that incident.
September 26 at 12:05am · Like
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Michael Beitia some jerk got shot at the 67th street exit of the Dan Ryan tonight, so no traffic could turn left, so everything bottled up on the way to Mass.... ugh it took four cycles of the lights for me to get through.
#Chiraqproblems
September 26 at 12:06am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Getting shot is generally a pretty thoughtless thing to do.
September 26 at 12:07am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia then when I finally got to the intersection, the car 2 in front of me STOPS in the middle of State street, so no one can move, to decide which way to go. Horn section and f-bomb section blaring
September 26 at 12:07am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia pretty frequent where I travel
September 26 at 12:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia shot *and* killed
September 26 at 12:07am · Like
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Edward Langley The pastor at one of the Catholic Churches in the area has a rosary made from casings collected outside his downtown DC church.
September 26 at 12:09am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I have literally had to chase foaming at the mouth crackheads out of our parish
September 26 at 12:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia but not for a few years
September 26 at 12:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger Friends womder why I dont want to move back to the city.
September 26 at 12:09am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I was in a hurry to get to Mass, as well, because my second son was on the schedule for second acolyte
September 26 at 12:11am · Like
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Edward Langley . . . and DC has had some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the nation.
September 26 at 12:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia so did Illinois
September 26 at 12:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe that's where I find the "natio" in the USA, guns. and the love of guns, and the use of guns.
September 26 at 12:11am · Like
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Edward Langley It's pretty distinctive
September 26 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there's only 80 homicides in DC to date this year.
We've got 294!
September 26 at 12:14am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley LA county had 387, but that's the only place I can find with a higher number and it isn't directly comparable.
September 26 at 12:22am · Like
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Edward Langley Although, there were more than 2,000 murders in NYC in 1990
September 26 at 12:23am · Like
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Edward Langley Now it's down to like 230-something.
September 26 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://www.nyc.gov/.../pdf/crime_statistics/cscity.pdf
September 26 at 12:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia wow. just wow. those numbers are staggering.
September 26 at 12:25am · Like
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Michael Beitia 3000 rapes!? 44000 Felony assaults!?
September 26 at 12:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's 120 felony assaults PER DAY
September 26 at 12:26am · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception does not support the theory of ensoulment. Ineffabilis Deus uses the words infusion of soul, not ensoulment, when describing the creation of the Mother of Jesus. The dogma merely states that Mary was Immaculately conceived, once, in body and soul and substance, all at the same time. Mary is human, so it seems the dogma may also shed light on human conception in general; conception being the fusion of the very first strand of genetic material, together at the same time and along with the infusion of the soul, the soul acting as formal principle to the fusion of the first material component of the new human person. One may think of zipping a sweater; the form of the article of clothing -- its shaping or coming together -- is the result of the zipping, both happening in one unified act. No other theory seems to make philosophical sense. Mary was conceived in this manner, it seems, and most definitely preserved by a singular act of grace from original sin.
Please do not collapse this theological discussion of the Theotokos into a base discussion of human anatomy, as happened before.
September 26 at 12:26am · Like
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Edward Langley There have been four mayors of NYC since 1990, David N. Dinkins, Rudy Giuliani, Michael Bloomberg and Bill de Blasio.
September 26 at 12:28am · Like
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Edward Langley Whatever you think of NYC politics, they must have got something right.
September 26 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia either that or they're just ignoring certain areas....
September 26 at 12:28am · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott just posted something here, but I'm not sure y'all can see it.
September 26 at 12:29am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^
September 26 at 12:29am · Like
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Michael Beitia Oh I can see it, Scott unblocked me
September 26 at 12:29am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Violent crime has gone way down over all since the late 70s almost everywhere.
September 26 at 12:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia I have to get up super early in the morning to be at work so I will offer a few fly-by comments
September 26 at 12:30am · Like
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John Ruplinger immaculate enzippment
September 26 at 12:30am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Since the 80s and 90s in large urban areas things have improved drastically re crime.
September 26 at 12:31am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Infusion of soul = ensoulment. each rational immortal human soul is made by specific creative act of God
September 26 at 12:32am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I wonder if what is responsible, Matthew J. Peterson
September 26 at 12:31am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have to get up at 4:30 tomorrow myself.
September 26 at 12:31am · Like
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Michael Beitia 4:30 pacific? I'm 2 hours ahead of you buddy
September 26 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and that's when my alarm is set for
September 26 at 12:32am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: disputed by scholars and pols, but the facts are amazing. I'm not sure myself.
September 26 at 12:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia my best case if five hours, at this point
September 26 at 12:32am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Why are we on tNET then?
September 26 at 12:33am · Like
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Edward Langley It could indicate that we no longer value courage and thus, even if it's a good thing, it could be a sign of societal degeneration.
September 26 at 12:33am · Like
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Michael Beitia I've had a few, went to Mass this evening, the football game was a joke by the time I got home..... you know
September 26 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to..."
September 26 at 12:33am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia drink or die?
September 26 at 12:34am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Into the tNET rode the 5,000
September 26 at 12:34am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia like as asshole, I'm about to crack another beer
September 26 at 12:34am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I dunno, Edward Langley. Decline narratives aren't much better than prog-ery. But who knows.
September 26 at 12:35am · Like
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Edward Langley I dunno, at least in hindsight, it looks like the decline of Rome was caused in an increase of luxury and a decline of the martial virtues.
September 26 at 12:36am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, but wouldn't luxury/dissipation lead to violence among the have nots?
September 26 at 12:37am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But soft despotism might be the answer, to be sure.
September 26 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Depends on how lazy it made them. I'd expect initially it would cause an increase of violence and then, through welfare programs like Caesar's distribution of grain, to complacency.
September 26 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Last one, I swear. ..
September 26 at 12:39am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, as far as science and industry goes, I don't think the US today is anything like the US of the 40s-70s or so.
September 26 at 12:39am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (with the possible exception of the tech sector).
September 26 at 12:39am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger panis et circensis
September 26 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But, even there, Asia and Russia seem to produce better programmers than we do nowadays.
September 26 at 12:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia cable TV and food stamps protect the gated communities....
September 26 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Immaculate enzippment is a lot more appealing this time. But strike the zipper analogy for Our Lady. I think it may hold some value for the rest of us in general.
September 26 at 12:43am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger la plus la change la plus la meme
September 26 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger i hit two birds with one platitude that time.
September 26 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (and the history of real culture, of philosophy, theology, music and painting is a blatant decline).
September 26 at 12:44am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia yeah 80s punk is much better than what we have now
September 26 at 12:45am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Art is on the biggest upswing in 20 years.
September 26 at 12:45am · Like
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Michael Beitia biggest in the sense of "Big f-ing rock"?
September 26 at 12:46am · Like
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Edward Langley 20 years is barely a blip.
September 26 at 12:46am · Like
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John Ruplinger What is art?
September 26 at 12:47am · Like
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Michael Beitia philosophy is in decline because of all those damn analyticals.
September 26 at 12:47am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol yeah not that, put painting and fine arts are on a current upswing. The galleries and pricing is going up.
September 26 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley You misspelled Heidegger
September 26 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ask Heidegger. He's got a great essay on "what is a work of art
September 26 at 12:47am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm actually related to the greatest living artist
September 26 at 12:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill Philosophy is in decline because of specialization within STEM.
September 26 at 12:48am · Like
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Edward Langley http://jameslangley.com/rome/
Views of Rome
CONTACT JAMES LANGLEY ⎜ ARTIST
JAMESLANGLEY.COM
September 26 at 12:49am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Scott Weinberg Art is an imitation in the form in a different substance. A metaphor, for example.
September 26 at 12:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill The current problem within business is the slow retirement of baby boomers and the promotion of engineers into management.
September 26 at 12:49am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia don't bait me, Scott, I'm tired
September 26 at 12:49am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^recursive reversal
September 26 at 12:51am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Cricket sings.
September 26 at 12:50am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley STEM is on a decline too, though, there's a book by a prominent physicist, Lee Smolin, in which he basically says "look, the problem with physics today is that we really haven't made any progress since the 1950s"
September 26 at 12:50am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Engineersake great first tier management, but are worthless in second tier and above
September 26 at 12:50am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Engineers are part artist, part scientist, and hopefully very wealthy.
September 26 at 12:51am · Like
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Jeff Neill True and stem is in decline because of specialized stem high schools Forcing the learning curve downward to jr high.
September 26 at 12:51am · Like
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Sean Robertson I love how we reminisced in the absence of trollery, and now that it returns we brush it off and continue on our way.
September 26 at 12:52am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia This one?
September 26 at 12:52am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Yes
September 26 at 12:52am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm in decline though, I'll tell you that.
September 26 at 12:52am · Like
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Jeff Neill The. Doubly stupid companies push engineers to get business degrees but they just become worse engineers.
September 26 at 12:52am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Crickets have not changed their tune in centuries. Their tune is simple, and happy. It just goes to show that if you practice a lot and keep things simple you will be happy.
September 26 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, my beer is empty.... 4 hours is the best I can do. Catch you all in about 5 hours...
September 26 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Have fun.
September 26 at 12:54am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill True the crickets are the same, but if they don't evolve they will be dinosaurs.
September 26 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley You might actually feel better with only 3 hours of sleep: they say the sleep cycle is 90 mins.
September 26 at 12:54am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think engineers have to be very creative.
September 26 at 12:55am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Good night too.
September 26 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The best human orchiatrated experiment in genetics is dog breeding. Look at the wonderful accomplishments in rapid evolution through selective breeding.
September 26 at 12:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger Nothing evolves except thinking make it so.
September 26 at 12:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill Wrong. Engineers do not have to be creative At all. Most can not draw a square if you do not define it for them first.
September 26 at 12:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill Engineers have become so specialized that they all require architects to design their thoughts, providing every predefined input and the form of every expected output.
September 26 at 12:58am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ^ i believe it, Jeff
September 26 at 12:59am · Like
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Jeff Neill Now, there is a new category of engineer the UX designer. They define the user, complete with virtual backstory and imaginary life history, they the. Define how this person likes to behave and what they can cope with learning or using. They then define for the engineer what exactly to do.
September 26 at 1:00am · Like
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Jeff Neill Engineers are more worthless now then ever before.
September 26 at 1:01am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ peregrine bonaventure [2 UP]
September 26 at 1:02am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill They are the carpenters of the virtual world, they can build anything someone else designs. Construction is too complex for the designer/builder
September 26 at 1:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes, he's bAck.
September 26 at 1:03am · Like
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John Ruplinger Carpenters i have worked with are very sharp. Not so much the engineers but there are exceptions like the ONE engineer in the company who knew everything at our avionics manufacturing co. without blueprints.
September 26 at 1:09am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Holy cannoli, he's back...and making demands...
September 26 at 1:10am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (as Peregrine Bonaventure?)
September 26 at 1:12am · Like
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Isak Benedict As Scott Weinberg. Can you see him? The usual drivel.
September 26 at 1:13am · Like
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John Ruplinger SW. He tried raising IC. Compared ensoulment to zipping a sweater.
September 26 at 1:14am · Like
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Edward Langley Can see him, but not the demands.
September 26 at 1:14am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, talk about silliness.
September 26 at 1:15am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Orthodoxy by faith vs cult followers....... Go
September 26 at 1:17am · Like
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Isak Benedict Why is he back? Who permitted this?
September 26 at 1:18am · Like
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Edward Langley Looks like Matthew re-friended him or something like that.
September 26 at 1:18am · Like
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Jeff Neill You missed the invitation Beitia and Peterson
September 26 at 1:19am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill The rest of you did not spawn interesting enough discussion and he was invited to return.
September 26 at 1:19am · Like
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Isak Benedict Garbage. I wish my disapproval noted for posterity.
September 26 at 1:21am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger There was an outpour of tears. Peoples wanted there pet back: tNET circenses. Matthew gave into the hoi polloi.
September 26 at 1:21am · Like
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Jeff Neill Is the "faith of a child" better than examined belief?
September 26 at 1:21am · Like
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John Ruplinger Roman gladiator shows = tNET troll baiting
September 26 at 1:22am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger faith of a child >> examined belief
September 26 at 1:24am · Like
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John Ruplinger Faith is belief in what reason cannot know, properly speaking.
September 26 at 1:26am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill True, but it would seem that most people do not "study" their faith and therefore take more by faith
September 26 at 1:31am · Like
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Jeff Neill At what point is a faith a cult?
September 26 at 1:32am · Like
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John Ruplinger immediately. But there is good cultus and cultish fideism or fuhrer worship, then superstition and then the occult. I guess cults are all a form of false worship or true cult.
September 26 at 1:53am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Guns have very little to do with crime rates, as crime fell in both states that eased guns laws and those that tightened them. And we can compare stats in Australia before and after Howard, and same with England and see similar statistical insignificance.
I would have to look up the exact numbers for coefficients, but Mueller's formula for murder rates in the US satisfies the requirements of cointergration. log(homicide rate)= c1 + c2*log(economic fatherhood) + c3*log (proportion of adult males in prison) + c4* log(chance of murderer being executed) + c5*log(abortion rate lagged 16 years)
Economic fatherhood is the proportion of men, between 18-45 who actively are involved in fatherhood. Mueller proposed, following Augustine's account of gifts and crimes, and that anti-social indicators would vary inversely with pro-social indicators, and an exemplar is the giving of self in fatherhood He only roughly estimated this value (lacking sufficient data to be more each) by taking the total fertility rate as an indicator, factoring out males in prison and children supported by the state.
c1 was a relative constant over the last 80 years of 1.702962 . c2 is -0.716678 (iow for every 1% increase in economic fatherhood, murder rates fall by ~.72%) c3 is -0.250365 (for every 1% increase murder rates fall 0.25% and you get the picture for the rest). c4 is -0.029457, c5 is 0.083556 (meaning abortion rates positively correlate with murder rates, contrary Freaknomics). c1 can be said to represent a sum of other factors, that have overall remained fairly constant. And using a different c1 for each country, we find the formula works in all countries. It also works with other crimes. Note how execution rates do correlate with less murder, but has far less effect than healthy families! Likewise, attributing the recent (1994-present) dropping rates to incarceration (punishment as incapacitation) is only a very partial picture, and a costly and sometimes questionable method. Whereas economic fatherhood (and motherhood especially) is a positive cost measure. Note too, that the c1 constant varies inversely with the suicide rate of most developed countries...what I mean is that countries with an historically lower murder rate, also have historically a higher suicide rate. It is an interesting question, that Mueller could not answer, what happened between 1920-1936, that changed the constant coefficient. The murder rate in the US used to be a lot higher than say the UK, way before even the UK had guns laws...theirs has increased, ours decreased (4 times higher rather than 16 times higher!)...of course they count it different too....comparing statistics based on different criteria is messy.
Sorry for the digression there, but the comment about guns resurfaced my thoughts from last night (around 4 am while working). I am likely the biggest gun nut on this thread, but there is some truth to "guns" being a peculiar American obsession, that is rather sad (both among those pro-gun and anti-gun). An excuse to ignore the more fundamental issue of marriage and family, and by extension real community. But it gets to a deeper issue. In both sides of the debate, there is an underlying current of individualistic principles. This stands out most with pro-gun advocates, but it is also there in the other side and their right to feel safe and such. And no one questions the common ground which is the real problem...
September 26 at 1:46am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz This is the problem with not refreshing the page...I was responding to Michael Beitia's claim about the natio of this country....an hour and a half later. I am wondering as to Edward Langley's thoughts here. I dare not speak of the fall of Rome....I am not even sure we can speak of a fall at all. When was it exactly?
The late 3rd century, and Diocletian's attempt to decentralize rule (two Caesars and two pro-consuls etc)
Post Theodosius, the last to rule over all of the Empire (unless you count Zeno's brief treatment of Odoacer as viceregent and himself as sole emperor)?
The establishment of the Ostrogothic kingdom?
The Senate remained throughout the kingdom and republic and empire. It was the constant political institution of Rome...and it just sort of faded away. We know it recognized Emperor Phocas in 603 AD, even though Gregory was already lamenting the decline of it as an institution...and its place of meeting was turned intoa Church in 630....seems from 500-630 is just withered slowly and died.
The eastern Senate remained longer and underwent a similar fate, fading away after 1204 (its last known act was then). But the Emperor remained.
So maybe the fall of Constantinople?
But clearly in crowning Charlemagne emperor of the Romans, and prior to that still have a relation with the eastern Emperor, the was a sense even in the 8th and 9th century west that Rome was still a thing.
So what, 1806? Or in 1918 with the deposition of Bl. Carl?
Or why not even now...that is right, Lichenstein is the last remnant of the Holy Roman Empire! Roe still lives in Lichenstein!
September 26 at 2:34am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Maybe rather than fall, we could say Rome sort of mutated, and divide, and some elements of this fell, others mutated more, divided more, ad nauseam.
September 26 at 2:35am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley What do you think of the narrative that attributes the decline of Rome to Epicureanism, Joshua?
September 26 at 2:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, I had my first real encounter with a personalist yesterday. It didn't go well.
September 26 at 3:22am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Go well for him or you?
September 26 at 3:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Neither?
September 26 at 3:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman His lecture was about refuting metaphysical errors of Christopher West. So I thought we'd have some common ground. Boy was I wrong.
September 26 at 3:24am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Try arguing with a real Scotist sometime.
September 26 at 3:24am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman He says that souls are masculine or feminine before they are infused into bodies, and when I challenged him on this he simply dismissed the authority of the fathers and said I didn't understand the relationship between body and soul. All the while, he got a woman in the audience to stand up and give him a hug...twice. It was all very bizarre.
September 26 at 3:26am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I did the Scotus thing last year.
September 26 at 3:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Likewise bizarre.
September 26 at 3:26am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know about you, but I generally find these positions a lot more respectable when I'm arguing with a person who actually holds then I find them in themselves.
Although, most of the time the argument only proceeds dialectically.
September 26 at 3:46am · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vZFAlFT1BA
Thomas Quasthoff - R. Strauss, Die schweigsame Frau: "Wie schön ist doch...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 4:13am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Joshua Kenz Sorry I was busy giving a bit of righteous indignation elsewhere over silly protestantized Catholics trying to claim a protestant ecclesialogy (as if those not in the Church can be said to be actual members of the Body of Christ...hello, whole visible reality of that Body and the inability to distinguish the visible from the Body, e.g. in LG.....but the decree of commemorating the reformation said we are in the same body, so I am the dissident....)
If you think trying to argue with a Scotus is bad, trying to argue with a "conservative" modernist is worse.
September 26 at 5:17am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, I don't buy that the popularity of epicureanism had much to do with it. First, while hedonist it is not hedonist in the way we use that term today, it advocates a certain simplicity in life. Second, it had already been popular it the time of Caesar, with Caesar himself having an affinity to it. Cicero opposed it, though most of his friends were Epicureans. Three, the decline and changing and mutating of Rome happened through many factors...economic, social, military. It is hard to attribute any philosophy as a cause even as only being a cause among many
September 26 at 5:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, I have a similar experience, typically. Sadly, this lecture I went to on the metaphysical errors of Christopher West was not one of those times.
The lecture ultimately was slanderous and calumnious of West. His lecture was a critique of West's work, but involved no quotations from West at all.
His response to my objections were dismissive and condescending (in a bad way).
September 26 at 5:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am willing to talk to almost anyone and discuss with almost anyone as long as there is evident respect shown for me and the discussion at hand.
September 26 at 5:48am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Lendman I would agree with your sentiment there, with an addendum: I want someone who will actually say what he means and mean what he says. Even worse, sometimes, than someone using strawmen to attack you and the like, is the person who thinks dialogue means merely stating your varied views and leaving it at that...especially when it is a question of facts and the reaction to any challenge is to get extremely upset and stick fingers in your ears, but even worse to just ignore it with "oh we can agree to disagree"
I like some pugnacity. As long as the aim is truth.
September 26 at 6:02am · Like · 3
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Joel HF The lecturer got to troll Daniel Lendman, didn't have to quote his sources, and hugged women in the crowd. This personalism business sounds great so far. What's the problem again?
September 26 at 8:10am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Joshua:
I answer that, This is the difference between the natural body of man and the Church's mystical body, that the members of the natural body are all together, and the members of the mystical are not all together--neither as regards their natural being, since the body of the Church is made up of the men who have been from the beginning of the world until its end--nor as regards their supernatural being, since, of those who are at any one time, some there are who are without grace, yet will afterwards obtain it, and some have it already. We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act; and this according to the triple class, of which the first is by faith, the second by the charity of this life, the third by the fruition of the life to come. Hence we must say that if we take the whole time of the world in general, Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ, as being no longer in potentiality to be united to Christ.
September 26 at 8:32am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Do you guys ever sleep?
September 26 at 8:50am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe What's a personalist? Some kind of continental philosopher?
September 26 at 8:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia No. I've been here at "work" for over two hours now
September 26 at 8:55am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What is your "work?"
September 26 at 8:59am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joshua Rome fell. I think that's the way it was perceived at the time of the multiple sackings. But I know what you are saying. It was only mostly dead if that and the East lived. It was the end of an age though and the beginning of another
September 26 at 9:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'd say "blue collar wage slave" but I'm technically management, and I'm salaried. But my collar is, in fact, blue
September 26 at 9:03am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia before facebook deleted my employment it said "indentured servant at the man"
September 26 at 9:24am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger FB fired you?
September 26 at 9:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia nope now it says "Former indentured servant at the man" I have no idea how this happened.
September 26 at 9:25am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Facebook knows you're management now. It will not allow you to falsely claim solidarity with the oppressed.
September 26 at 9:34am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia oh I claim solidarity.
September 26 at 9:36am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads.
September 26 at 9:43am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger [pactatio Olisipiensis cencenda est.]
September 26 at 9:45am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as I best could, but when he ventured upon the thread I vowed revenge.
September 26 at 9:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger guillotine time?
September 26 at 9:45am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey Scott, when did you come back?
September 26 at 9:46am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Last night at 11:52 PM. I had been on a blocking rampage then came to my senses.
September 26 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [Scott = Cinna the poet]
September 26 at 9:55am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't want to be Caesar anymore. After last night I think I need to be a republican.
September 26 at 9:51am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I am not Casca. I was just upset by some of the discussion on the Immaculate Conception. But, you should buy this book. Poetry must be written for an interest. If you know how to use metaphor, you are on track as a poet; if you know how to use enthymeme, and if you can handle Scripture carefully, you can write devotional. I wrote this for the interest of the readers, and to sell. It is important to write to sell. This just means you are writing to an interest. If you are a pious theologian, you must also write to an interest. But anyway, this book is selling in the largest Catholic bookstore in the country, and other places. You should get a copy. It will have a positive impact on your life. I promise. It will delight and entertain and make you smile. It took several years to complete. I am a slow writer. The publisher asked me to write a botanical in honor of Our Lady, and I have also begun an epic about the experiences of a refugee in America.
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
September 26 at 10:05am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And because I'm teaching Federalist 51 again this morning, I can't resist: I simply do not see what others see when they give it what I take to be a careless read.
For the 1000th time, Madison in 51 is talking about preventing OPPRESSIVE and UNJUST majorities. He knows there will be majority opinion. He thinks the large republic will prevent BAD majority opinion and allow GOOD majority opinion to triumph.
This applies to religion as well. He has no problem with a religion that would be upheld by a majority if it wasn't oppressive and upheld the rights of conscience. He has his personal doubts over whether that is possible. Jefferson thinks that, far from getting rid of any religious majority, everyone will become unitarian. In neither case is there a rejection of the public good or an objective good.
September 26 at 10:26am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^ wrong for 999th time
September 26 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia little 'r' republican, however
September 26 at 10:26am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I can't read the text for you. What you seek in it IS NOT THERE.
September 26 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And it is strange to wish that it was there.
September 26 at 10:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ I am done. Let's not agree to not disagree for a change. (First step towards Madisonian supermajority indifferentism )
September 26 at 10:28am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Samantha, we are arranging your resignation
September 26 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What you are all arguing is that because they didn't ban Catholicism (which they would have done if they adopted your principles) they made it hard for Catholicism to ever take root and made us all moral relativists.
But not a single one of these people were relativists. Nor were the laws and culture of the land. For well over a century.
September 26 at 10:29am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg FACT: Madison never wrote a bestiary.
September 26 at 10:29am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^^ It seems that way, Matthew. What we are arguing are the moral consequences of the principles. That's a big difference. I understand the political reality in Madison's day. It isn't about "what should I have done". [Dang. I thought I was done.]
September 26 at 10:31am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That's the first true thing I've heard about Madison on this thread, Scott. He did write about beasties though:
http://founders.archives.gov/...
Founders Online: Notes on Buffon’s Histoire naturelle, [completed ca. May 1786]
Notes on Buffon’s Histoire naturelle, [completed ca. May...
FOUNDERS.ARCHIVES.GOV
September 26 at 10:31am · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Why are some saying Federalist 51 is a shield against faction of the majority?
September 26 at 10:34am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think the disconnect between reality on the ground and the refusal to speak of the actual circumstances and choice in front of these men writing to persuade people in the midst of those set circumstances on the one hand, and these so called principles on the other, is an enormous part of the problem, and refusal to address it will forever make your position look silly.
But I still want to see where Madison rejects the notion that there is an objective good. The entirety of 10 and 51 DEPEND UPON THE IDEA THAT THERE IS ONE. OTHERWISE, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CARED ABOUT UNJUST AND OPPRESSIVE MAJORITY TYRANNY IN DEMOCRACY, WHICH HE WAS TRYING TO STOP.
September 26 at 10:35am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Here, let's read some relativism from Fed 51, shall we?
September 26 at 10:38am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the INJUSTICE of the other part"
September 26 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ No, yours is the disconnect. The realty is that society has embraced a demand that all be tolerant of all views and morality. This is the reality. Why is that? [It's an inquiry; not about skewering Madison though there is that temptation because you want to find someone that is responsible.]
September 26 at 10:38am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Madison and Washington had an interest. The word interest may have been Washington's favorite word. Madison had an interest in forming a union and protecting it against factions. That is his subject and interest. His subject is the smaller faction, and forming the union amidst an onslaught of small factions.
September 26 at 10:40am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "There are but two methods of providing against this EVIL"
September 26 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^^ Getting in that top 10 percentile on your status?
https://www.facebook.com/matth.../posts/10152684071056508...
September 26 at 10:41am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "This view of the subject must particularly recommend a proper federal system to all the sincere and considerate friends of republican government, since it shows that in exact proportion as the territory of the Union may be formed into more circumscribed Confederacies, or States OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be facilitated"
September 26 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "JUSTICE is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit. In a society under the forms of which the stronger FACTION can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the VIOLENCE of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful."
September 26 at 10:41am · Like
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Pater Edmund Matthew people weren't saying that Maddison is himself a relativist (at least I don't remember them saying that), but rather that he follows the Enlightenment thinkers in trying to turn the attention of political life away from concern with the last end.
September 26 at 10:42am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg "States OPPRESSIVE combinations of a majority will be facilitated"... this is a smaller faction. States are a smaller faction, not a majority faction or tyranny of majority.
September 26 at 10:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and sects which it embraces, A COALITION OF A MAJORITY OF THE WHOLE SOCIETY COULD SELDOM TAKE PLACE...[WAIT FOR IT]...ON ANY OTHER PRINCIPLES THAN THOSE OF JUSTICE AND THE GENERAL GOOD..."
September 26 at 10:43am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson ^Please explain this passage to me. No objective good?!? An objective good underlies the argument of both Fed 10 and 51.
September 26 at 10:44am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And no one will answer my question - how would any philosopher or Pope want the federal government to deal with man's last end, as all agree that as you extend the sphere the purposes get thinner and more basic.
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think he means in the same way Hobbes "rejected" Aristotle's summum bonum... but Hobbes did not really reject this, neither does Madison.
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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Pater Edmund So yeah, he is concerned with what is objectively good, but he wants to agree to disagree about the highest good/final end.
September 26 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^^ You want me to read. And explain. I only make assertions (which has been sufficiently proven).
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pater Edmund: Bond was indeed arguing, and has said repeatedly, that Madison did not hold to an objective good.
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ indeed
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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Pater Edmund That's a misunderstanding of Bond.
September 26 at 10:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ no. Bond said that.
September 26 at 10:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Repeatedly.
September 26 at 10:46am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Madison, it seems, clearly, views happiness as man's final end. He just does not call it beatitude as St. Thomas does in his book about Kings. Madison was not eyeing a Catholic monarchial reign like some do today.
September 26 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Whatever. He wouldn't have to to make his point.
September 26 at 10:47am · Like
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John Ruplinger What does Madison mean by "justice", by "general good", by "common good". This was the argument that Bond was making. I have not been rereading nothing excepts quotes and links posts. (Truth is it's not of interest.) But Matthew will make me.
September 26 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As to the agree to disagree business, again, what do you think the federal government should have done (the state governments ALREADY HAD established religions)?!?
Silence.
September 26 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I did read loooooots on this. It's just been a while.
September 26 at 10:48am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There was an OBVIOUS reason to agree to disagree - multiple obvious reasons - when it came to the federal government.
September 26 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger NO, Matthew. It's not what *should* they have done. It's what the f. can we do now. That's the point of the inquiry and to gain interlechual clarity.
September 26 at 10:49am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think it's time to write in the manner of GKC: "It is not that Democracy has never tried Catholicism; it is that Catholicism has never tried democracy!"
September 26 at 10:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia consequences of his principles?
September 26 at 10:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger Neither Bond NOR I will respond to the "what should they have done". LIS it's not really about skewering Madison (and I have defended him at times). That's water under the bridge. It's trying to understand our particular circumstances and what is the idea, the practical, and the possible.
September 26 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Doesn't even matter what Madison means by justice and the general good - the terms will be defined by people deliberating throughout the nation about matters of policy.
Would putting Aristotlian definitions into the Constitution have served a purpose?
Read the state constitutions - they did this to some extent.
September 26 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Madison is trying to form a just union, in the face of a confederacy of factions. He succeeded in a way that Catholics are free to practice their faith. The greater tragedy is that Catholics do not know their faith.
September 26 at 10:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger WHat Bethea?
September 26 at 10:51am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Beitia. At least spell it write.
September 26 at 10:51am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson If you want to understand our circumstances but don't want to deal with circumstances - call me confused.
September 26 at 10:52am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg This is the last time I am going to ask. It is Chesterton Friday. Please try to write your sentences in the manner of GK!
September 26 at 10:52am · Like
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John Ruplinger I think it's time to write in the manner of GKC: "It is not that Democracy has never tried Catholicism; it is that Catholicism has never tried democracy!" ----- I disagree with GKC. He never left his anarchism. Moreover, his enthusiasm for democracy rested on his faith in rural peasantry which we have no more. Scott.
September 26 at 10:52am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I disagree with GK too, but at least it's fun to try to sound like him.
September 26 at 10:53am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You want to talk about what we can do now - bit you don't want to deal with what you can when the majority disagrees with you?!? Bwhahaha...
You will fail in this country. Because you don't understand Madison, in part.
September 26 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "understand circumstances" does not mean understanding the particular circumstances at the Founding ----- or I should say thinking about how they should have done it differently at that time. Certainly an awareness of those circumstances some of which obtain today is necessary.
September 26 at 10:54am · Like
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John Ruplinger No, Matthew.
September 26 at 10:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia perpetual revolution. it's the only way
Let's get a five year plan together
September 26 at 10:54am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I don't think politically anything can be done, but I have engaged politically in the past (though not to the extant of Scott).
September 26 at 10:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger perpetual revolution = what we have, Beitia.
September 26 at 10:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. it is waaaay too static
September 26 at 10:55am · Like
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John Ruplinger change, change, change. nothing but constant revolution.
September 26 at 10:56am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think some people are upset because the majority in America is not Catholic. They think it is wrong that America was not established as a Catholic monarchy.
September 26 at 10:59am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I certainly hope that was addressed to John and not me
September 26 at 10:57am · Like
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Scott Weinberg But America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to persuade.
September 26 at 10:57am · Like
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Scott Weinberg It was just thrown out there generally, but not to you. This is a question you have to wonder about.
September 26 at 10:58am · Like
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John Ruplinger And, Matthew, I do understand how the mechanisms work (per the Founding and really).
September 26 at 10:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger SO WRONG: "But America was established for Catholicism to succeed and be able to persuade." It was not, Scott. Are you saying God providentially provide for the Founding for the liberty and exultation of the Church? What is your claim?
September 26 at 11:00am · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, it would be good for me if you could explain your position a bit more.
September 26 at 11:01am · Like
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Pater Edmund Matthew Bond has replied to your objections multiple times. It's not that Maddison says "oh shoot w've got multiple religions, therefore we can't establish religion, shoot" he says "oh yes, in the union there are so many religious sects that none of them will ever be able to opress the others, yes!"
September 26 at 11:02am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Jeffrey Bond: are you the Bond that I visited in Chicago as a child during a terrible heat-wave? Or was that someone else?
September 26 at 11:02am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Religious freedom protects the Catholic Faith in America. There is no provision in the Constitution, no law, which restricts the Faith. There is no hindrance in our law preventing well-informed Catholics from running our country with virtue.
September 26 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But for the sake of clarity, John Ruplinger, what is your position? I have lost it in the weeds.
September 26 at 11:04am · Like
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Pater Edmund I'm all for piety toward one's country as a kind of filial piety, but why are you people all so against piety toward the middle ages? Aren't we children of the middle ages too?
September 26 at 11:04am · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger I don't think any amount of explanation can help, Scott. I do recommend Bond's arguments here. He says it better than I.
https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152543773981508
Matthew J. Peterson
A sure sign of a corrupt era: lots of Senators in the mix for the Presidency. The reason only 16 have been elected President thus far?
By virtue of their office...
See More
September 26 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can we understand the founding in terms of religious dissidents setting up their own theocratic states? Is that possible?
September 26 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger My position Scott is that God did not inspire the Founding so that Catholics could persuade the conversion others en route to the establishment of a confessional state.
September 26 at 11:07am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not necessarily see Hobbes and Bacon and Newton as departures from the Middle Ages. They are just different. They do a different thing. They did not kill the truths of all of the glory of Christendom. These truths are still with us. We can still exercise them in this democracy.
September 26 at 11:08am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It *is* awesome that there are so many factions that we can't oppress one another.
September 26 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thank you John. What is a confessional state exactly; is this one which is set up around the Sacraments?
September 26 at 11:08am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The THREAD unites.
September 26 at 11:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, filial piety to the Middle Ages? Why not Filial piety to the Roman Empire? Why not filial piety to the Stone age? That's extended the definition too far to have any meaning
September 26 at 11:09am · Like
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Matthew Reiser Michael Beitia Well, Massachusetts was essentially a theocracy in it's formative colonial years.
September 26 at 11:09am · Like · 3
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John Ashman Protestants think that God founded the US for them to controI.
September 26 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political THREADS which have connected them with another...
September 26 at 11:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to "not having a Catholic monarchy"
September 26 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the American founding provides the "free space" of society within which w can act
September 26 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe John Ashman, we do not
September 26 at 11:10am · Like
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John Ashman Which is why they're going to boycott conservatives who are gay.
September 26 at 11:10am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger WRONG: " Just as Spaceman Jeffrey extends the definition of persecution to "not having a Catholic monarchy""
September 26 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Matthew, I know that's my point
September 26 at 11:11am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe He totally did that last night, John
September 26 at 11:11am · Like
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John Ruplinger "free" space so long as you adhere to certain religious doctrines. Y'all need to read Murray to see the problems Catholics face in our culture.
September 26 at 11:12am · Like
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Michael Beitia not that we can't criticize the founding. Which I am by advocating perpetual revolution!
September 26 at 11:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe To be fair, he didn't specify that it had to be a monarchy. Persecution is Catholicism not being the established state church
September 26 at 11:12am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger You're reminding me just how right Bond is (regardless of whether we speak of Madison as the source of the problem --- that question can be dropped and his argument still stands).
September 26 at 11:12am · Like
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Scott Weinberg There is not a whole lot of basis in the Federalist papers or in the founding documents that supports the idea that Catholicism was to be suppressed in America. The tragedy is not there. It's in the fact that Catholics do not know their Faith.
September 26 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- perpetual revolution goes against the first good of government, peace.
September 26 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Matthew above you wrote «The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the impressive state led to covering state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment".»
Can we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle Ages? In one sense they were certainly a failure—they came to an end. But was their decline and fall caused by subordination of the temporal to the spiritual? Note that the popes who aggressively pushed the classical integralist position (distinction of two swords, subordination of the temporal to the spiritual), from St Gregory VII to Boniface VIII, were mostly good guys, morally upright. The worst popes come later when that model has been practically abandoned under the pressure of the forces that brought the middle ages to an end—French nationalism, revival of Italian city states, decline of the emperor's power outside of Germany, increase of trade, usury etc. It is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst popes, and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory VII's model...
September 26 at 11:13am · Unlike · 5
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John Ruplinger ^^ Don't remember that, but I missed that part of the discussion. Samantha 3 up.
September 26 at 11:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia no it doesn't
#revolutiongnosis
September 26 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If it's a true revolution, there's blood in the streets, man
September 26 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg If Catholicism were the state religion in America, imagine what this would do to our entertainment industry?
September 26 at 11:14am · Like
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Pater Edmund Samantha/Caesar: I thought we were all for piety toward the Roman Empire.
September 26 at 11:14am · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg You can have a bloodless revolution.
September 26 at 11:14am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not Caesar anymore. I'm a republican! I don't really want to be Brutus, though
September 26 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Samantha, he did not. You have made no attempt to understand the position.
September 26 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "centuries of fighting against the IMPRESSIVe state" --- Matthew is really a closet Monarchist.
September 26 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund And don't get me wrong, I know that there is always an element of illusion in looking to the past for models. Link #22,001: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../all-times-are-bad.../
All Times Are Bad Times
Gloriosus apparuisti inter principes Austriae, sancte Leopolde, ideo diadema suscepisti de manu Domini; ora...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
September 26 at 11:15am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund But it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all (and one is usually right).
September 26 at 11:16am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yes! All times are bad time! That's what I was saying last night!
September 26 at 11:16am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Isak, I certainly did make an attempt. It's possible it was impaired by whiskey.
September 26 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's why "conservatism" is a dead end we can't go back. That's why we've got to out-liberal the liberals and come around on the other side
September 26 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Reposting Pater Edmund: "It is in the Rennaisaince that you get the worst popes, and that was because the papal states and been integrated into the political system in a way directly contrary to Gregory VII's model..." <<<< this.
September 26 at 11:17am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Middle Ages was the glory of Christendom, there is no doubt. But with the rise of Britannia in the 16th C, it was just not possible to govern a civilized world through bishopric dynasties and Catholic monarchies. So we have freedom of religion. It is perfect for the growth of the Faith. Why do you need a Catholic King?
September 26 at 11:17am · Like
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Pater Edmund I'm just reading Peter Handke's book on Serbia: everyone is so misunderstood!
September 26 at 11:17am · Like
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Michael Beitia the Middle Ages didn't have indoor plumbing
QED
September 26 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #crapgnosis
September 26 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pater: "But it is natural to think that the time in which one lives is the worst of all (and one is usually right)". <<<<< relativist --- I do think I can make that argument. But it is too huge for the thread. We have truly grave ills today when the very foundation upon which any state is built is being undermined.
September 26 at 11:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or vaccines, or antibiotics
September 26 at 11:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or novocaine
September 26 at 11:19am · Like
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Pater Edmund Yes they did have indoor plumbing. Check out the toilets in Stift Zwettl (one of our daughter houses).
September 26 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg We have a King in heaven, and happiness as our end in this democracy. Why complain about the food?
September 26 at 11:22am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund But fair enough about vaccines.
September 26 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, sure, *your* people had indoor plumbing
September 26 at 11:20am · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe *my* people wouldn't have
September 26 at 11:20am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Clean drinking water!
September 26 at 11:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia which Pater's people would not have had
September 26 at 11:21am · Like
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John Ashman "It's in the fact that Catholics do not know their Faith."
PossibIy true, but protestant don't seem to have any cIue who Geesus was.
September 26 at 11:21am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Basic literacy for the masses!
September 26 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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John Ashman I have Ietters missing on my qeyboard...
September 26 at 11:21am · Like
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John Ruplinger novocaine, vaccines, antibiotics, indoor plumbing: overrated. Clean water and sanitation not so much.
September 26 at 11:21am · Like
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John Ruplinger "Basic literacy" --- YOU KID!
September 26 at 11:21am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Listen man, there are plenty of uninformed Catholics and Protestants. We could trade insults with one another about whose sect has done a worse job all day
September 26 at 11:22am · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia that would push us close to 30k
September 26 at 11:23am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Most people in this country know how to read. Most people in the middle ages did not.
September 26 at 11:23am · Like
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Scott Weinberg In Kansas, you can get 5 acres and 5,000 square feet for under $250,000. That's far less than a bishop got during the Middle Ages.
September 26 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund We all agree that _in some respects_ our age is better than previous ages. But not many. Literacy for the masses is a mixed blessing
September 26 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe uuuuuugh
September 26 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Protestantism is a way of uniting peopIe to controI the state ostensibIy for seIf preservation.
CathoIicism has reverted bacq cIoser to its roots in the teachings of Christ.
September 26 at 11:23am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I love you, Pater, but no, it's not
September 26 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The masses by nature are a mixed bag.
September 26 at 11:24am · Like
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Pater Edmund Yeah, I was joking.
September 26 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Literacy ===== waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated (as you mean it)
September 26 at 11:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, good.
September 26 at 11:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The ability to read is over-rated???
September 26 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Samantha, the issue for me is what Protestants are doing to the Tea Party. Or we can caII them socio-cons to avoid insuIting protestants, but the Venn diagram is practicaIIy a circIe.
September 26 at 11:26am · Like
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John Ruplinger I am not though. What do you mean by read? And by what grade ought basic literacy be obtained? (Medieval DID NOT require literacy to function in society at a high level. And there was no printing press.)
September 26 at 11:26am · Like
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Pater Edmund «The medieval synthesis had all kind of weaknesses and internal contradictions, but it had a what Luigi Giusani calls “a unitary mentality.” It had “a conception of God as pertinent to all aspects of life, underlying every human experience excluding none.”
"In this sense, then, the Middle Ages are not to be considered a more interesting epoch than others just because at that time everyone was more devout or capable of behaving in a less morally reproachable way. No, it was more interesting, because it was characterized by a unitary mentality."»
September 26 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Middle Ages had beer. No water necessary.
September 26 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Link #2,002: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../tarnishing-the.../
Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth
The eccentric French footballer Nicolas Anelka-- once of Arsenal, Real Madrid, Chelsea etc., now of West West...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
September 26 at 11:27am · Like
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John Ruplinger Today, of course, basic literacy is needed. But by what grade should one have achieved basic literacy to be a competant plumber and make 60k per year?
September 26 at 11:27am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg In America, supporting individual prosperity and the pursuit of happiness is a way support the union. The union is not supported by putting down true freedoms. If a factious majority of people-pursuing-happiness rose up, they would be invited to join the union that already exists.
September 26 at 11:28am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John, the Venn Diagram isn't even close to a circle. None of the evangelicals I spend time with are remotely Tea Partiers
September 26 at 11:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia Without literacy, how are the future generations to read tNET?
September 26 at 11:28am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund (On balance, I would probably have to admit that Protestants have a better record on catechesis, btw).
September 26 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Literally all the Tea Partiers I know are Catholic, as it happens
September 26 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ for realz?
September 26 at 11:29am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg In America, if a factious majority of Catholics rose up pursuing the virtue of true devotion, they would be invited to join the union and to keep on keeping on.
September 26 at 11:30am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund I think The Thread should do a line by line reading of Giles of Rome: http://amzn.com/0231128037
Giles of Rome's On Ecclesiastical Power: A Medieval Theory of World Government...
AMAZON.COM
September 26 at 11:30am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Um, John, the fact that there was nothing for people to read in the Middle Ages is an argument against the supposed greatness of the middle ages, not an argument against the importance of literacy
September 26 at 11:30am · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott, define "true freedom". What is liberty?
September 26 at 11:30am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh my goodness this is going too fast
September 26 at 11:30am · Like
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John Ashman Samantha - Curious if they're advocating anti-immigrant stances, pro-drug wars and aII of that, or if they're advocating smaII government, Iow taxes.
September 26 at 11:30am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Some are quite anti-immigrant
September 26 at 11:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger I really think that liberal education is for the few (both by desire and competence). And the ancients and medievals read aloud.
September 26 at 11:31am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know about the drug war aspect.
September 26 at 11:31am · Like
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John Ruplinger In today's society of course it is necessary.
September 26 at 11:31am · Like
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John Ashman It's the difference betweening being a Tea Party adherent or trying to higacq it for sociaI engineering.
September 26 at 11:31am · Like
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Pater Edmund It's hard to know whom you mean when you say "John," Samantha.
September 26 at 11:32am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Fair point
September 26 at 11:32am · Like
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Pater Edmund Reminds me of answering the dorm phone and hearing someone say "can I speak with John?"
September 26 at 11:32am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger What is "John"? --- (actually I follow just fine)
September 26 at 11:33am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Comments on Medievals = Ruplinger. Comments on Tea Party = Ashman
September 26 at 11:33am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe John Ashman, I don't really know much about what's going on in the Tea Party. I'm not that interested, to be honest. But I do know a lot of intelligent evangelicals and none of them are Tea Partiers
September 26 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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John Ashman To conced e to Samantha, NationaI Organization for Marriage is run by a CathoIic. Very disappointing.
September 26 at 11:34am · Like
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John Ruplinger The only Tea Partiers I know are Catholic, too. That's interesting. I thought there would be more Protestants. (Just proves Bond's point that Catholics have drunk the Madison koolaid more deeply than the protties.)
September 26 at 11:35am · Like
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John Ashman My point is how things spin over time. Protestants came to escape bad government and formed a government that tread IightIy and avoided intermingIng. That no Ionger hoIds true.
September 26 at 11:35am · Like
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John Ruplinger "Tea Party" is so unCatholic. I need to start the "Beer party": Plank 1 -- medieval beer purity standards.
September 26 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Joel HF "Dorm phones"--showing your age there, Pater Edmund.
September 26 at 11:37am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I'm sure there are lots of Protestants in it, too. I just don't know them.
September 26 at 11:37am · Like
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John Ashman CathoIic Churches have been doing yeoman's worq in supporting immigrants, even if immigration is now a "sin" somehow.
September 26 at 11:37am · Like
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John Ashman That sets Protestants on fire usuaIIy.
September 26 at 11:38am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Probably the difference between us is that John Ashman knows Protestants through political movements, and I know them through church.
September 26 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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John Ashman But there is a huge difference in the teachings between a priest and a minister for the most part. Though..FWIW, the minister for my first wedding was a Iesbian.
September 26 at 11:39am · Like
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John Ashman either way, american reIigion and poIitics is a FUBAR.
September 26 at 11:40am · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger, I would define true freedom and liberty as knowing, loving and serving God in this world with an alacrity of fully-informed devotion, and forever in the next. This, I think, is in line with St. Thomas' political writings which refer to beatitude as being the end of the Catholic King. In America, these freedoms so-defined are protected and guaranteed and are in no way limited by the government. Our government, in no way, forces any individual to deny any aspect of this freedom. Only in rare circumstances has this ever happened. But in those circumstances, changes have been made. Our government in no way persecutes Catholics. In fact, our government does not even tax the Church.
September 26 at 11:40am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If anybody at any of the churches I have been a part of hated immigration (illegal or otherwise), I didn't know about it.
September 26 at 11:41am · Like
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Pater Edmund «What does one "know," when involvement is nearly always only [tele-] visual involvement? What does one know, when all the "network" and "online" produces only knowing about, without that real knowledge that only comes from learning, looking and learning. What does one know he sees not the thing but an image of the thing, or in TV news an abbreviation of an image, or online the abbreviation of an abbreviation?» – Peter Handke, Justice for Serbia
September 26 at 11:43am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund It's funny how everything I read at the moment appears as a commentary on The Neverending Thread.
September 26 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Scott, how does one prevent the confusion between the liberty you have defined and liberty as the freedom to believe and expresswhatever one wants?
September 26 at 11:44am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund Samantha, I know I link too much, but I would be interested in your opinion on this: http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../tarnishing-the.../
Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth
The eccentric French footballer Nicolas Anelka-- once of Arsenal, Real Madrid, Chelsea etc., now of West West...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
September 26 at 11:44am · Like
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John Ashman http://mashable.com/.../the-evangelical-movement-against.../
The Evangelical Crusade Against Immigration
The Evangelical faction against immigration
MASHABLE.COM
September 26 at 11:45am · Like
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Scott Weinberg We hold this thread to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
September 26 at 11:45am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ But is liberty here the same as you defined above?
September 26 at 11:46am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, I have to tend my sick children now, but I'll read it in a bit and get back to you
September 26 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger, the liberty you and I have defined is self-evident. Liberty to believe whatever one wants is not self-evident, it was not what the Founders meant, but is the cause of faction, in the Bible and in government.
September 26 at 11:48am · Like
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Scott Weinberg You are right John, I think, it is a bit different in some regards; but it is the same in some regard, and consistent with in every way.
September 26 at 11:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia liberty is not the same as license.
September 26 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Define liberty, Beitia.
September 26 at 11:50am · Like
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Pater Edmund Blessings on the sick children. I'll think of them at vespers.
September 26 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia freedom from external compulsion - working definition, subject to revision
September 26 at 11:50am · Like
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Scott Weinberg My 16 year old daughter seems to think liberty is her driver's licence. (jk)
September 26 at 11:50am · Like
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John Ashman Iiberty is the fuII reaIization of naturaI rights.
September 26 at 11:50am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Liberty is "let my people go, so they can worship the true God."
September 26 at 11:51am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Religious liberty.
September 26 at 11:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger Define religious liberty.
September 26 at 11:52am · Like
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Michael Beitia freedom to be wrong
September 26 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Per Beitia, all law is contrary to liberty; liberty = license + [His pre-revised definition]
September 26 at 12:13pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund A question for The Thread from Goodreads before I leave for Vespers: «We will be interviewing Marilynne Robinson about her new book, Lila, for the October Newsletter. Do you have any questions for the author about her previous work, her new book, her writing habits, her characters, etc.?
Respond to this message with your question! We'll include a few of the most interesting ones in our interview.»
Suggest some questions Thread.
September 26 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia sure!
#perpetualrevolutiongnosis
September 26 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Every government ceIebrates their Iast revoIution. None want another.
September 26 at 11:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia and that ^ my friends, is the problem
September 26 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "Liberty, the highest of natural endowments, being the portion only of intellectual or rational natures, confers on man this dignity - that he is "in the hand of his counsel" and has power over his actions. But the manner in which such dignity is exercised is of the greatest moment, inasmuch as on the use that is made of liberty the highest good and the greatest evil alike depend."
September 26 at 11:55am · Like
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John Ashman "Iiberty. you're not using it right"
September 26 at 11:56am · Like
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John Ashman There's nothing more dangerous than perpetuaI revoIution, except, perhaps, perpetuaI evoIution.
September 26 at 11:57am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger 5. Liberty, then, as We have said, belongs only to those who have the gift of reason or intelligence. Considered as to its nature, it is the faculty of choosing means fitted for the end proposed, for he is master of his actions who can choose one thing out of many. Now, since everything chosen as a means is viewed as good or useful, and since good, as such, is the proper object of our desire, it follows that freedom of choice is a property of the will, or, rather, is identical with the will in so far as it has in its action the faculty of choice. But the will cannot proceed to act until it is enlightened by the knowledge possessed by the intellect. In other words, the good wished by the will is necessarily good in so far as it is known by the intellect; and this the more, because in all voluntary acts choice is subsequent to a judgment upon the truth of the good presented, declaring to which good preference should be given. No sensible man can doubt that judgment is an act of reason, not of the will. The end, or object, both of the rational will and of its liberty is that good only which is in conformity with reason.
September 26 at 11:58am · Like
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John Ruplinger 6. Since, however, both these faculties are imperfect, it is possible, as is often seen, that the reason should propose something which is not really good, but which has the appearance of good, and that the will should choose accordingly. For, as the possibility of error, and actual error, are defects of the mind and attest its imperfection, so the pursuit of what has a false appearance of good, though a proof of our freedom, just as a disease is a proof of our vitality, implies defect in human liberty. The will also, simply because of its dependence on the reason, no sooner desires anything contrary thereto than it abuses its freedom of choice and corrupts its very essence. Thus it is that the infinitely perfect God, although supremely free, because of the supremacy of His intellect and of His essential goodness, nevertheless cannot choose evil; neither can the angels and saints, who enjoy the beatific vision. St. Augustine and others urged most admirably against the Pelagians that, if the possibility of deflection from good belonged to the essence or perfection of liberty, then God, Jesus Christ, and the angels and saints, who have not this power, would have no liberty at all, or would have less liberty than man has in his state of pilgrimage and imperfection. This subject is often discussed by the Angelic Doctor in his demonstration that the possibility of sinning is not freedom, but slavery. It will suffice to quote his subtle commentary on the words of our Lord: "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin."(3) "Everything," he says, "is that which belongs to it a naturally. When, therefore, it acts through a power outside itself, it does not act of itself, but through another, that is, as a slave. But man is by nature rational. When, therefore, he acts according to reason, he acts of himself and according to his free will; and this is liberty. Whereas, when he sins, he acts in opposition to reason, is moved by another, and is the victim of foreign misapprehensions. Therefore, `Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin.' "(4) Even the heathen philosophers clearly recognized this truth, especially they who held that the wise man alone is free; and by the term "wise man" was meant, as is well known, the man trained to live in accordance with his nature, that is, in justice and virtue.
September 26 at 11:58am · Like
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John Ashman "Having discovered seIf-evident truths, we must now improve them"
September 26 at 12:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ We have no agreement on the thread (of relatively like minded folks) as to what is liberty or religious liberty. (Self-evident? not so much. certainly not today. Cf. John C. Murray's collection "We Hold These Truths". He saw the problem of lack of consensus, but didn't see others.)
September 26 at 12:03pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman It's such a shame that the onIy way to create a free, naturaI rights society is to vioIentIy impose it on the masses who wish to controI others by their own nature.
September 26 at 12:05pm · Like
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John Ashman ReIigious Iiberty is a subset of naturaI rights. your right to it ends at the rights of others.
September 26 at 12:06pm · Like
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John Ashman I had a great e-maiI exchange with a professor of Iaw (one of Mathew Matthew J. Peterson's FBFs coincidentaIIy) and I had to expIain how naturaI rights per the 9th and 10th Amdendment incIudes everyone, not citizens onIy. If there's one thing that needs to be taught properIy in coIIege, it is naturaI rights. With that, we soIve everything.
September 26 at 12:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What is the basis for natural rights, John? And how are they discovered?
September 26 at 12:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia through the will of the soviet
September 26 at 12:17pm · Like
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John Ashman ...and his moustache.
September 26 at 12:18pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman sentience is the basis for naturaI rights, it's Iiqe an easter egg Ieft for the brain to discover. It is fundamentaI because it is unassaIabIe. PeopIe try to modify it but with no grounds and no reason.
September 26 at 12:20pm · Like
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John Ashman The probIem is the instinct to controI others for seifish benefit.
September 26 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia
September 26 at 12:21pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill It would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated religion. First of all, I have never met two people that believe the same thing (to the same degree) including priests, bishops and cardinals. As for laity, Nancy Pepsi is "catholic". What good has her faith done except to use it as a weak argument with "constituents" that have nothing else in common with her. I would rather be in a nation of Hindus Buddhists and Protestants all jumbled together and the "good" coming out of them commonly. If there are bad laws, give it 50 years and they will be overthrown.
September 26 at 12:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hey Kennedys are catholic, right? that sure helps.
September 26 at 12:24pm · Like
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John Ashman If there are bad Iaws, give it 50 years and they wiII be 10 times as expensive as imagined, cause bigger probIems than that which it seeqed to fix and require perpetuaI tweaqing to maintain an apperance of functionaiity. It wiII probabIy not be overthrown.
September 26 at 12:24pm · Like
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John Ashman The Qennedies are Cathoiic Iiqe I'm Fin'g Superman.
September 26 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Beitia is a fuhrer in infancy. beware -- just saying.
September 26 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger maybe it is soviet
September 26 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Ashman His worship of StaIin is seIf-evident.
September 26 at 12:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman It's aII in the 'stache.
September 26 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill My daughter once asked me how an interview I had went. I told her it went really well but they apologized that did not have enough budget to buy me.
She responded "I didn't think you were allowed to buy people anymore."
"You can, but only for limited periods of time."
September 26 at 12:28pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger: Religious liberty is the freedom to know, love and worship God and to pursue man's highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness (beatitude). In the Founding Documents, we see reference to the right to the pursuit of happiness. In the other section of rights, there is a right to religious freedom. The rights of the Bill of Rights could have been placed along with the self-evident rights in the Declaration. But they weren't. Madison and Patrick Henry came together to fight hard for the Bill of Rights, to ensure the Union would not usurp individual rights, but support them instead.
September 26 at 12:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill On both sides of the spectrum, having a lax catholic ruler and would be just as bad as SSPX rule of law.
September 26 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think good Catholic governance in America is a real possibility. We would have to think of what shape it would take and how it would come about.
September 26 at 12:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Jeff wrote: "It would seem more reasonable to me that having factions of multiple religions would be better than a single state mandated religion. First of all, I have never met two people that believe the same thing (to the same degree) including priests, bishops and cardinals." BUT this is a consequence of our present confusion merely, the culmination of a false understanding of liberty. I completely agree (on the last sentence), Jeff. The lack of consensus is ubiquitous: nothing but divisions and sects of one. "Sects of one" is an exaggeration of course.
September 26 at 12:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Scott, the ambiguity is clear in what you say. We have two meanings of happiness and religious liberty here: " [1] Religious liberty is the freedom to know, love and worship God and to pursue man's highest end which is the pursuit of eternal happiness (beatitude). In the Founding Documents, we see reference to [2] the right to the pursuit of happiness. In the other section of rights, there is a right to religious freedom."
September 26 at 12:36pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill John R, thus having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more universal, or at least less accidental
September 26 at 12:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think most Catholics and most Americas do agree on many of the biggest and most important issues. Everyone uses these things to form unity and quell faction. Madison did this too.
September 26 at 12:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No they don't.
September 26 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Most Catholics believe in God. Most Americans believe in God. Yes, they do.
September 26 at 12:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ I revised, Jeff. We only agree on the last statement. Compromised majorities are very problematic to me (or rather majorities formed by compromise). They are stronger only meaning more effectual. However, the adherents of them adhere to them more weakly (unless we speak of supermajorities like the adherence to the belief in modern "religious liberty".
September 26 at 12:38pm · Like
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John Ashman The Tea Party doesn't even agree with itseif.
September 26 at 12:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Which issues are biggest and most important?
September 26 at 12:38pm · Like
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John Ashman Most peopIe do NOT beIieve in God. If they did they wouId be scared out of their sqin to do the things they do.
September 26 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Believe, Scott, in what "god"?
September 26 at 12:39pm · Like
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John Ashman God has as much reIevance as the Tooth Fairy to most "beIievers". I don't pretend to beIieve in something that powerfuI. It saves my sanity.
September 26 at 12:40pm · Like
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Joel HF Jeff, "thus having sects agree is stronger since the common good they each seek together is more universal, or at least less accidental" aren't you equivocating on "universal"?
September 26 at 12:41pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman It's Iiqe drinqing O'DouI's and saying "I Iove beer". No you don't.
September 26 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg John, we believe in the one true God. The Bill of rights protects the right to exercise religion freely. This is all it says really. But this is enough. This is all it needs to say, to align the self-evident right of happiness with the full and free exercise of the Catholic Faith. Our history as a nation shows that the freedom of Catholics to exercise their Faith has in no way been put down. In fact, Catholics can even run for the presidency. Now is not that something?
September 26 at 12:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ not self evident. That's just an assertion. And you are playing, Scott, with two definitions of "happiness". Which is the self-evident one?
September 26 at 12:43pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg They held those truths to be self-evident. And so do we. I take them at their word. The only tragedy here is that Americans born in Canada cannot become President, even Canadians born on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, which is several miles south of most of the US/Canadian border.
September 26 at 12:44pm · Like
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John Ashman Seif evident was nothing more than a Iiterary fIourish to mean "IogicaI" and "unassaiIabIe"
September 26 at 12:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ Scott, you do. I don't
September 26 at 12:44pm · Like
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John Ashman If it were obvious, it wouIdn't have required Iogic or reason.
September 26 at 12:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What is wrong with weak adherence to compromise? The goods of each state are different, the needs of the people are different agreement and consent are commodities of trade. Especially on issues of low relevance. Southern California is in drought. What does the other states care of their needs? Are they offering to redirect a river in aid?
September 26 at 12:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger AGAIN, Scott. Another ambiguity. The "one true God" or some other god?
September 26 at 12:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do. Honestly. I will respect that you do not. But every political endeavor begins with self-evident first principles. That is the nature of politics.
September 26 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Joel, if you can't equivocate on universal, then you aren't equivocating hard enough.
September 26 at 12:46pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Like Ashman said, adherence to compromise is like calling bud light beer and saying "I love beer", when it's not even made from barley. Is the "common good" (the party planks) really a common good in any way anymore, Jeff?
September 26 at 12:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The God of Nature and Nature's God. It is the one, true God, and you are being a silly billy.
September 26 at 12:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^^^ totally wrong, Scott.
September 26 at 12:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Nature's god [of Deists] is not the one true God we as Catholics profess belief in.
September 26 at 12:48pm · Like
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John Ashman 0 is what peopIe actuaIIy gnow about god and infinity is what they don't.
September 26 at 12:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Saying someone is totally wrong, my silly friend, is not being reasonable in conversation.
September 26 at 12:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Saying the Founders professed belief in the one True God is silly. AND totally WRONG.
September 26 at 12:49pm · Like
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John Ashman BeIief sits weII beIow reason, Iogic, science as a way to deaI with others. BeIief is a good way to handIe yourseIf.
September 26 at 12:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^mere assertion.
September 26 at 12:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The God of Aristotle is the same God of St. Thomas. It's just that Thomas had more revelation and more Faith.
September 26 at 12:49pm · Like
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John Ashman If God didn't exist, Man wouId create him to fiII the void.
September 26 at 12:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ big if.
September 26 at 12:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, are you definitively saying that the Founding Fathers who wrote of the God of nature were really speaking of pie in the sky and not really God the true Creator? Please explain.
September 26 at 12:52pm · Like
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John Ashman There is no scientific evidence. I wouId presume that God wouId be pretty obvious with an overwheIming presence.
September 26 at 12:52pm · Like
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John Ashman Scott, they were speaqing in generaIities, they were not stating that there is onIy one God and he's the onIy one of whom they are speaqing.
September 26 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "Pie in the sky". Where did I say that?
September 26 at 12:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Mr. Ashman, that would leave nothing for belief. But the evidence is convincing.
September 26 at 12:54pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Americans had their fiII of the "one true God" phiIosophy and tyranny.
September 26 at 12:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ tyranny? philosophy?
September 26 at 12:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But I do agree, Mr. Ashman, that they seem to have had enough.
September 26 at 12:54pm · Like
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John Ashman If it were convincing, I'd be convinced. BeIief is not evidence. Things you don't understand aren't evidence.
September 26 at 12:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It's one of the argumnents that Dr. Bond and I were trying to make.
September 26 at 12:55pm · Like
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John Ashman In the hands of humans, "one true God" has been aImost compIeteIy associated with tyranny. So they spoqe around it.
September 26 at 12:56pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, I'm just asking if you think the Founder's "God of nature" is a fabrication and in no way the real Creator, but something else? Can you give me a yes or a no? St. Thomas said Aristotle and he were talking about the same God. The Church teaches in Her Dogma it is the same God: The God known by reason (in part) is the same God revealed.
September 26 at 12:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But there are proofs for the existence of God, Mr. Ashman. These are not proofs of the existence of a Triune God -- that requires Faith. But Faith is founded on the authority of the one revealing and the miracles are the signs of the truth of that.
September 26 at 12:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "in Her Dogma"? She teaches that the Founders god is our God?
September 26 at 12:57pm · Like
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John Ashman If there were proofs, I'd be convinced.
September 26 at 12:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Even the best proof of anything does not necessarily lead to conviction.
September 26 at 12:57pm · Like
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John Ashman God is a great idea, badIy run.
September 26 at 12:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Church teaches that the God known by reason, which the philosophers knew existed by reason, is the same God. Are you willing to answer my question, John Ruplinger? Are you saying the God of the Founders, is not the same God as the God of Catholics?
September 26 at 12:59pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman So you can see why weaq proof doesn't go very far on many of us.
September 26 at 12:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^^ Founders "god" is not our God.
September 26 at 12:58pm · Like
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John Ashman Why aren't the Romans correct? Or the Greeqs?
September 26 at 12:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But John R. Even people who love beer don't love the same qualities. But they profess the same love. And compromise the other to exist and be enjoyed as well. There is no loss in this compromise. However, beer purity laws would be a true compromise, against the pumpkin beer lovers. But beer purity laws are not for the common good but the private good of the narrowly beer minded.
September 26 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Bud Light isn't even beer though. It's made from fricken CORN and RICE. LIS the compromise is tasteless and lacks conviction even in those who still make that compromise.
September 26 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman Founders God is a generaI statement aImost Iiqe "fiII in the _____"
September 26 at 1:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John, if the "God of Nature" of the Founders is not the same God as our God, then what or who is it? Are you willing to answer this question?
September 26 at 1:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ nope. I haven't studied the Deists enough, but I do have an idea.
September 26 at 1:01pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman CouId be the same, couId be the same, because it was a generaIity, not a fixed conviction in the "one true God".
September 26 at 1:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't think it was a mere generality, John.
September 26 at 1:01pm · Like
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John Ashman "God bIess you"
"You beIeve in God!!!"
"No, I, uh it's a convention"
"You said it!"
"SeriousIy, trying to be poIite with a common saying"
September 26 at 1:02pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg John and John, if the Founder's "God of Nature" is not the same God as a true believer, then why are the rights of the true believer protected by the right to religious freedom in the Bill of Rights that the Founders were willing to die for?
September 26 at 1:03pm · Like
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John Ashman You're free to beIieve in ApoIIo. If it were the one true God, there wouId be no need at aII for reiIgious freedom.
September 26 at 1:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ non sequitur. Not only that but the Bill of Rights were drawn up after the Revolution. (Scott)
September 26 at 1:04pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The founders are decent moral relativists.
September 26 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman "The error seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only. Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free enquiry been indulged, at the aera of the reformation, the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged away. If it be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged. Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. Thus in France the emetic was once forbidden as a medicine, and the potatoe as an article of food." Thomas Gefferson.
September 26 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg That does not follow, which rhymes with Apollo. Believers of the one true God have been persecuted by factions from within and without for ever. Even from within the House of David.
September 26 at 1:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ this, to Jeff.
September 26 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman "But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Some guy who wrote the DoI.
September 26 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Ashman A beIiever in the one true God wouId never maqe this statement.
September 26 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ true (actually false -- many now have no problem with this statement, Mr. Ashman)
September 26 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ashman The Gewish God and the Christian God are totaIIy different Gods.
September 26 at 1:08pm · Like
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John Ashman ...need...new...qeyboard...
September 26 at 1:08pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ 2 up. Depends. (another ambiguous expression)
September 26 at 1:08pm · Like
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John Ashman Gefferson beIieved that freedom created better reIigion. And he wrote his own BibIe for it.
September 26 at 1:10pm · Like
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John Ashman You'd thinq God wouId get his reIigion right the first time. Not very infaIIibIe, this God.
September 26 at 1:10pm · Like
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John Ashman OR...humans are faIIibIe and can't be trusted with anything they say about God.
September 26 at 1:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill My beer point.... You aren't making a compromise if you aren't making a sacrifice of yourself. This the bud light fan claims to love "beer". And the staunch catholic says "if it doesn't say Stone Arrogant Bastard, it's not allowed to call itself beer"
September 26 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Anyway, Charles Carroll, the devout Roman Catholic Founding Father who signed the Declaration, in his own words, proves you scurrilous dogs are wrong. And you are so mangy I will not even share his words with you. That would be like throwing crumbs to the swine. I will make you go look it up. And I hope you like my references to dogs and swine... I through those in for dramatic effect alone. I mean no insult. I am very impressed with your dramatic abilities.
September 26 at 1:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And may the One true God, the God of our Founders, the God of Charles Carroll, and the God of the Pope of Rome, bless you.
September 26 at 1:11pm · Like
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John Ashman God of IsraeI and Mohammed....
September 26 at 1:12pm · Like
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John Ashman God is aIways made in the image of His creators.
September 26 at 1:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia
September 26 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman CathoIic God = God 2.0.
September 26 at 1:13pm · Like
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John Ashman You can't argue with StaIin!
September 26 at 1:14pm · Like
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Pater Edmund #PseudoGnosis form Lucky Jim on the Middle Ages: «As he approached the Common Room he thought briefly about the Middle Ages. Those who professed themselves unable to believe in the reality of human progress ought to cheer themselves up, as the students under examination had conceivably been cheered up, by a short study of the Middle Ages. The hydrogen bomb, the South African Government, Chiang Kai-shek, Senator McCarthy himself, would then seem a light price to pay for no longer being in the Middle Ages. Had people ever been as nasty, as self-indulgent, as dull, as miserable, as cocksure, as bad at art, as dismally ludicrous, or as wrong as they'd been in the Middle Age - Margaret's way of referring to the Middle Ages? He grinned at this last thought...»
September 26 at 1:16pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Jeff: "And the staunch catholic says "if it doesn't say Stone Arrogant Bastard, it's not allowed to call itself beer"" <<<<<< straw man argument. German purity laws are very liberal (in the true sense ). They prevent the masses from confusing non-beer and beer.
September 26 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, tNET kind of presupposes Christianity.
September 26 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is interesting. Do we have an atheist on tNET now?
September 26 at 1:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is anyone going to try to convert him?
September 26 at 1:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe German purity laws are garbage
September 26 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Lots of my favorite beers wouldn't qualify as "beer"
September 26 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- I did read your "Tarnishing the Splendor of Truth" article
September 26 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I liked it, right up til the last paragraph. ; )
September 26 at 1:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ true 3 up
September 26 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia ^YOU WILL BE CAST INTO THE OUTER DARKNESS^
September 26 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But it's a price I'm willing to pay, Samantha. We still can call the other things by names other than "beer".
September 26 at 1:19pm · Like
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John Ashman No idea what tNET is MichaeI
September 26 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "The The Neverending Thread" this thread
September 26 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^ infidel (Not knowing tNET is like not knowing there is a God: self evident really.)
September 26 at 1:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe maybe I have to read Giusanni for the full argument, but the "unitary mentality" idea isn't very fleshed out.
September 26 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Oh...
September 26 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Having just finished vespers in our medieval Church, where monks have been praying vespers since the 12th century. Having just eaten supper in our refectory decorated with the portraits of medieval Austrian dukes and Hungarian kings, whose donations to the monastery literally still pay for the food we eat... It occurred to me that where we live might have something to do with our different judgements on piety toward the Middle Ages, Samantha.
September 26 at 1:20pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe that is a very good point, Pater Edmund
September 26 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Yes. And worse, I go to CHURCH. Atheist, in church. Every Sunday.
September 26 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What? Why do you do that?
September 26 at 1:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, Catholic wife, or something?
September 26 at 1:21pm · Like
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John Ashman We have a winner.
September 26 at 1:22pm · Like
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John Ashman Because if not, to heII and forever.
September 26 at 1:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But Pater Edmund, since you pay such good attention to the objections, and present the pro-middle ages argument so briefly, I was more convinced of my own opinion after reading the post.
September 26 at 1:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If New Belgium wasn't allowed to call the Trippel beer, it probably wouldn't get made and sold.
September 26 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^ that is a completely decisive argument against garbage German beer purity laws
September 26 at 1:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ not
September 26 at 1:25pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Darn. #fail. I'm going to go see if they have any chocolate in the recreation room.
September 26 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Obviously you've never had New Belgium's Trippel
September 26 at 1:26pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger I don't like the Belgian ales. Perhaps, we need to modify the German purity laws. All would be good.
September 26 at 1:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger, it would have been fun if you were at the Congressional Convention in 1787. You could have asked the Founders what they meant by God. You could have also asked what they meant by "nature." Then you could report back to TNET, did they really mean the same thing as what we mean. It is too bad we cannot do that.
September 26 at 1:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^^ we can though.
September 26 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I really don't have a modern caricature view of the middle ages, btw. I just think you Catholic revisionists revise too hard in the other direction
September 26 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Just read, Scott, what they meant.
September 26 at 1:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "revisionist" -- reduced to ad hominem argument, Samantha?
September 26 at 1:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys have been ad homineming *me* for thousands of comments already!
September 26 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Not once. ever...... i don't think.
September 26 at 1:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger trolling, yes. Ad feminam, no.
September 26 at 1:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I haven't.
September 26 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, not you Jeff.
September 26 at 1:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But I am anti revisionist .
September 26 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I don't think revisionist is necessarily an insult
September 26 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You want to revise the received wisdom about the Middle Ages. It's descriptive, not ad hominem
September 26 at 1:31pm · Like
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John Ashman My daughter Ioved beer as a 2 year oId. She puIIed an O'DouI's from the mini mart and so I bought it for her. The horrified Iooq she made when she tasted it was priceIess.
September 26 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill That's until the history books get changed.... And Columbus is painted as a vicious conquistador.
September 26 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha - you're a jerk.
September 26 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman And IincoIn as the great emancipator.
September 26 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "the received wisdom" --- I object to your epistemic authority. And your equivocal use of the term "wisdom"
September 26 at 1:34pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, right that's the whole basis of our e-friendship, remember?
September 26 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well, you like to label people. Just returning the favor.
September 26 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think the Founders meant "nature" when they said nature too. I'm sorry if that sounds seditious, or anti-Catholic, but that's just how I feel emotionally about it.
September 26 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia an elephant never forgets.
September 26 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman You shouId see what he caIIs me.
September 26 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but was it a Newtonian deist clockwork nature? or the natural Aristotelian hylomorphic nature?
September 26 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Isak, my man, I have a poem for you!
September 26 at 1:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Labels are helpful for mental sorting.
September 26 at 1:36pm · Like
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John Ashman AIso for portraying fashion sense.
September 26 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Scott, the Founders were wrote in a very poIite manner and often used carefuIIy worded euphimisms and phrases to be as incIusive as possibIe and to avoid any obvious dismissaI of any group.
Again, freedom of reIigion wouIdn't be an issue if they thought everyone beIieved in the same thing or the same concept of God.
September 26 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Labels are also important for understanding nutritional information
#caloriegnosis
September 26 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I see what you are saying, John, the founders were misleading everyone. Thanks for saving us.
September 26 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No, they were unitfying us as best they couId.
September 26 at 1:43pm · Like
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John Ashman They caIIed sIave trade "importation" in order to avoid ruffIed feathers.
September 26 at 1:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Anytime, Scott.
September 26 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No poIitician has ever misIead anyone, ever.
September 26 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No one has ever patronized anyone to get a favorabIe resuit.
September 26 at 1:46pm · Like
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John Ashman Euphemisms.....never happened.
September 26 at 1:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg When the founders spoke of "usurpations" they were not speaking of work place inequality. Thanks for clarifying all this for the nation. I feel we can all move forward, together, and united.
September 26 at 1:47pm · Like
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John Ashman You're weIcome.
September 26 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I continue to be amazed at how basically reasonable our Scottegrine sounds after returning from a massive implosion.
September 26 at 1:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe it's a Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde type situation
September 26 at 1:50pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Or, like, the Hulk
September 26 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ...... pretty simple really. Stay away from a few issues and it's all ok. Scott is the epistemic authority of tNET [Do I need to repost the rules of the cave?]
September 26 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Which carries with it enormous responsibility...
September 26 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I think I have come down with trickygnosis.
September 26 at 1:54pm · Like
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John Ashman The difference between misIeading and poIite is that you are putting the truth in the nicest way possibIe when your wife says "am I getting fat". You don't deny the truth, you simpIy....put it in a nice box with a ribbon.
September 26 at 1:57pm · Like
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John Ashman And the other person knows what you mean and everyone agrees to not dig deeper.
September 26 at 1:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley Per way back: "Most people in this country know how to read. Most people in the middle ages did not."
I've heard from a respectable medievalist (Dr. Noone at CUA) that this is probably false: what used to be reported as "literacy" was being able to read/write Latin and not being able to read/write their native language. Noone seems confident that many or most people in the Middle Ages could read their native tongues.
September 26 at 2:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, to be fair, most medieval languages are just dumbed down Latin.
French is what happens when Germans try to speak Latin
September 26 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia When visigoths try tospeak Latin, it turns to spanish
September 26 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman Try and speak???
September 26 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia To speak, whatevs
September 26 at 2:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fixed
September 26 at 2:17pm · Like
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John Ashman Heh.
September 26 at 2:17pm · Like
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John Ashman
See Translation
September 26 at 2:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ed-- if that's true it's shockingly contrary to received wisdom. I don't suppose you know what he bases this on?
September 26 at 2:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, most people where? In the cities?
September 26 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Why wouId someone read their native tongues in most cases? What wouId exist for them to read? Not much. If anything.
September 26 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That seems true
September 26 at 2:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what was written in the vernacular before 1300? drinking songs? Probably didn't have song books for those
September 26 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson All those happy, virtuous, literate peasants, reading books from their local library during their long holidays....
September 26 at 2:37pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger no printing press = less "received wisdom"
September 26 at 2:38pm · Like
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John Ashman How wouId you even teach someone to read their Ianguage? with what books? As I understand it, it was probabIy priests and educated business peopIe and schoIars from outside that transIated spoken word into the Iatin aphabet.
September 26 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia thanks for the flyby Peterson
September 26 at 2:39pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Eastern Europe didn't even have an aIphabet untiI the 800s.
September 26 at 2:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Dante wrote in the vernacular in about 1300. I imagine there was some precedent for it.
September 26 at 2:40pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I get the picture. Of course, the period we are talking about is long and varied and it's easy to pick out the bright spots.
No one talks about massive prostitution problems, or widespread married priest problems, or widespread greedy monk problems, or the shameless corruption of politically powerful clergy.
September 26 at 2:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I do. So shove it
September 26 at 2:40pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger peasants had loooots more holidays. We get "labor" day if lucky
September 26 at 2:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia everyone remained spotless pure in their virtue until marriage too
September 26 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I know, I know.
September 26 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Popes are infaIIbIe so no sins were committed by the church.
September 26 at 2:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why do I hate tNET? it makes me defend things I don't like defending.
September 26 at 2:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But after all, giving concrete examples of high points in actual time and place is not necessary in these sorts of arguments.
September 26 at 2:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #needsmorecharts
September 26 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Scott, dude - unless it's an apology for that slanderous tripe you posted on my profile picture, I'm not really interested in anything you compose. Especially poetry-wise.
September 26 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Ah, the common good.
I believe it is best achieved when the fact that one wealthy billionaire has sexual relations with another it affects the welfare of millions of people they rule by virtue of their incestuously deficient genes and their disproportionate wealth.
September 26 at 2:46pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Although, Wycliffe was trying to get the Bible into the common language in the 1300s, so there must have been at least a few more people who read English than Latin among the local Lollard populace
September 26 at 2:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what kind of peasant gets a holiday, certainly not one farming. That's a 24/7 "job"
September 26 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or vocation
September 26 at 2:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
September 26 at 2:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But "most people" read and wrote it their common language? I don't know. I don't believe it.
September 26 at 2:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe he meant "most clerics?"
September 26 at 2:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe although even then...
September 26 at 2:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In some times and places some scholars do make a strong claim they had a lot of holidays. Of course, they also had a lot of work to do keeping their living quarters and arrangements together.
September 26 at 2:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where's Ed? Come back here and engage with my skepticism
September 26 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson There are seasons in which farmers have less to do. And in some times and places they almost constitute a union you didn't want to piss off as a Lord.
September 26 at 2:50pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But if we are going to bitch about capitalism's inequality, we may want to avoid ignoring the structural inequality of the situation for many throughout the Middle Ages.
And then with a little freedom those people started to constitute a middle class. And this is what every modern intellectual hates most, right or left.
September 26 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe He can't possibly mean "most women."
September 26 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman InteIIectuaIs hate competition.
September 26 at 2:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 22,997
September 26 at 2:58pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Ah, the common good.
Why set up a system in which both rich and poor, few and many, and all in between can argue and duke it out and a majority faction will be hard to form?
Why not just give power to an elite few to umpire and moderate the claims of all sides regardless of majority will - screw mitigating it! Madison speaks of this in 51.
Crazy, I know, but as it turns out sometimes giving supreme power to the few leads to oligarchic rule.
Which is why any sensible aristocratic system would try to structurally check power and force deliberation when it comes to the power of the few - especially via the rule of the one and the many - over and above trying to educate them well while explaining the hellfire that awaited them for abusing their power.
Which is what Madison wants to do in regard to the ultimate power in a Republic - find ways to check and force deliberation re the many, and add in powers of the one and the few into the system as such a check.
September 26 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman This is why poIiticians can't sue for defamation for the most part, as weII as because they're they're aII thieves and whores.
September 26 at 3:01pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger gnosis cut off point. [23K]
September 26 at 3:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman MarketpIace of Ideas™
September 26 at 3:02pm · Like
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John Ashman I get the sense that they wouId make a "do over" if they had a better crystaI baII.
September 26 at 3:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "It is through prayer that men come to the unitive knowledge of God. But the life of prayer is also a life of mortification, of dying to self. It cannot be otherwise; for the more there is of self, the less there is of God. Our pride, our anxiety, our lusts for power and pleasure are God-eclipsing things. So too is that greedy attachment to certain creatures which passes too often for unselfishness and should be called, not altruism, but alter-egoism. And hardly less God-eclipsing is the seemingly self-sacrificing service which we give to any cause or ideal that falls short of the divine. Such service is always idolatry, and makes it impossible for us to worship God as we should, much less to know Him. God's kingdom cannot come unless we begin by making our human kingdoms go. Not only the mad and obviously evil kingdoms, but also the respectable ones - the kingdoms of the scribes and pharisees, the good citizens and pillars of society, no less than the kingdoms of the publicans and sinners. God's being cannot be known by us, if we choose to pay our attention and our allegiance to something else, however creditable that something else may seem in the eyes of the world."
September 26 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sonya is ill and has lost several children over a short span. Tolstoy, that most empathetic fellow, writes "There is no worse situation for a healthy man than to have a sick wife."
September 26 at 3:07pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Husband of the year.
September 26 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Tolstoy. Cared deeply about humanity writ large...
September 26 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "Stop being sick - this is making my life difficult! Why are you so selfish?!?"
September 26 at 3:08pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia but a really odd mix of deist "Christianity" and anarchism
September 26 at 3:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I did not post slander against you Isak. I was merely representing your conversation. I was just saying how imprudent I felt it was for the founders of the college to describe Western academia as a tyranny. That is fair.
September 26 at 3:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope Scott, it was slander
September 26 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I got caught up in the wash too
September 26 at 3:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Idolatry consists in loving a creature more than we love God. There are many kinds of idolatry, but all have one thing in common: namely, self-love. The presence of self-love is obvious in the grosser forms of sensual indulgence, or the pursuit of wealth and power and praise. Less manifestly, but none the less fatally, it is present in our inordinate affections for individuals, persons, places, things and institutions. And even in men's most heroic sacrifices to high causes and noble ideals, self-love has its tragic place. For when we sacrifice ourselves to any cause or ideal that is lower than the highest, less than God Himself, we are merely sacrificing one part of our unregenerate being to another part which we and other people regard as more creditable. Self-love still persists, still prevents us from obeying perfectly the first of the two great commandments. God can be loved perfectly only by those who have killed out the subtlest, the most nobly sublimated forms of self-love. When this happens, when we love God as we should and therefore know God as love, the tormenting problem of evil ceases to be a problem, the world of time is seen to be an aspect of eternity, and in some inexpressible way, but no less really and certainly, the struggling, chaotic multiplicity of life is reconciled in the unity of the all-embracing divine charity."
September 26 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No, it was not. It was accurate. Sorry you do not see it this way.
September 26 at 3:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [^tNET idolatry]
September 26 at 3:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you could be sorry for being a bombastic jerk..... but that may be asking too much.
September 26 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak, you sound like more of an anarchist than I do....
September 26 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm not talking about you calling me a jerk. That's no worse than me calling you a butthead. I'm talking about you calling me a heretic, and calling shame on me for supposedly disrespecting the Blessed Mother whom I love dearly. I was not involved in that conversation that got you in such a huff. What I think of the topic and the way it was handled is irrelevant. You accused me of things you have no right to. You slandered me.
September 26 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Michael - #huxleygnosis #anarchygnosis
September 26 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict So sit down and shut up, please, Scott, unless you're going to apologize.
September 26 at 3:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, I do not owe you an apology, and you should have the humility to not need one. I am learning how to converse with you super intelligent people. It can be a challenge sometimes when you remarkable scholars of Aristotle and Thomas say things like the Founders did not mean God when they said God, and the like.
September 26 at 3:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You should not have been silent, in regards to Mary. I am glad you love Her.
September 26 at 3:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [Founders are wrong heresy. I sense another anathema.]
September 26 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia blah - you just don't have the #gnosis Scott. you missed the point and got huffy for no reason, and didn't read or understand anyone's explanation.
September 26 at 3:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and I don't think the protestants (of some varieties) believe in the same God as I do. But the reality is one. We should keep the distinction between the reality of God separate from the varied beliefs/teachings of God
September 26 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #distinguognosis
September 26 at 3:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, Chaucer was writing in English before 1400 (among which writings was a translation of Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy)
September 26 at 3:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 1400 is post middle ages, no?
September 26 at 3:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Piers Plowman?
September 26 at 3:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley 1343-1400
September 26 at 3:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley dates of Chaucer's life
September 26 at 3:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley I dunno, I think of the 13th century as the high point of the middle ages with Albert, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Scotus and Ockham
September 26 at 3:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so if the middle ages stretch from 450 to 1400, we've got too much time to generalize
September 26 at 3:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley but I think everything from 1100-1400 or so would be "typical middle ages".
September 26 at 3:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley or maybe 1033
September 26 at 3:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley As far as I'm concerned, the middle ages begins with Anselm and Abelard
September 26 at 3:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what's post-Roman then?
September 26 at 3:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley Boethius and Augustine are late-Roman.
September 26 at 3:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Augustine pre-dates Alaric
September 26 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how about the Venerable Bede?
September 26 at 3:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think of those things as medieval, because I generally think of the Scholastic period as the medieval period
September 26 at 3:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley which would mean 1100 to at least Suarez and John of St. Thomas.
September 26 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so the claim is that most people could read their native language between 1100 and 1400, right?
September 26 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Piers Plowman was a man out standing in his field.
September 26 at 3:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Something like that
September 26 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jefferson's God is not my God
September 26 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia does that invalidate the founding? I don't think so
September 26 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Or, at the very least, reports about literacy are often too low, since the statistics of the time generally mistake ability to read Latin for ability to read due to the way people of the time spoke.
September 26 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what did they have to read, though?
September 26 at 3:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Dante, Chaucer
September 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley Bocaccio
September 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This isn't the United States of there are as many Gods as there are people to believe in God.
September 26 at 3:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley You know, I might be confusing philosophical schools with historical periods
September 26 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia pretty much. Allah is not my God
September 26 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Isn't it?
September 26 at 3:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley There is a huge gap in my awareness of history: from somewhere around Nero to 1492
September 26 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg God is God. Different religions have varying degrees of understanding of God; but our Constitution supports and defends the free exercise of the Catholic Faith. Is there a problem with this?
September 26 at 3:38pm · Like
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John Ashman Everyone imagines God differentIy, so one person = one God.
September 26 at 3:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know, I think one could argue that intentionally denying divine attributes leads to a different conception of God and thus to "believing in a different God".
September 26 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I am not sure what happened between the glory of Christendom and Hobbes. How did we get from a Catholic understanding of governance to where we are today, and is that bad?
September 26 at 3:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's my point Edward, like I wrote earlier, we need to distinguish between God as He is and God as we conceive of Him
September 26 at 3:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Evidence of which is that I've heard that there is a dispute among Arabic-speaking Christians as to whether to call their God Allah.
September 26 at 3:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley And there were whole encyclicals written about what Chinese word to use for God
September 26 at 3:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think grace has a lot to do with it... that intersection between natural belief and belief by grace.
September 26 at 3:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ah, yes, the Chinese encyclicals.
September 26 at 3:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't need an apology, Scott. You need to apologize. There's a difference. And there is no need to tell me I need humility. I don't have your issues with self-awareness.
As for staying silent, you seem to imagine that I was reading and following the conversation and tacitly approving by not joining in. You're nuts.
Your sarcasm is noted, regarding conversing with remarkable scholars.
September 26 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is Allah triune? that may make a difference Edward
September 26 at 3:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I've heard that the whole "Allahu akbar" thing involves a denial of the Trinity.
September 26 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and thus, a denial of the true God.
September 26 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and therefore, not my God
September 26 at 3:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the clockwork Deist God suffers from a similar defect.
September 26 at 3:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Let it go, Isak. We were having a conversation about the Immaculate Conception, and some people distorted it into a discussion of crude human anatomy, which was breathtakingly inappropriate... and you were silent. And now you come begging for an apology. Forget it.
I think it is entirely possible for a Founding Father to have certainty about the existence of the true God, then fall into a kind of idolatry and worship something false. We are all prone to this temptation. But this is not to say that God in the founding documents secretly means something else, as some seem to be saying here.
September 26 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let it go!? take your own advice sometime....
September 26 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Are you really blaming me for not being present when a conversation occurred? Either I was sleeping or out doing something else. When I came back TNET was gone. What is wrong with you?
September 26 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman AIIow me to be the bigger dick here. Geesus didn't even know he was the Son of God and besides, he was probabIy gay. And immacuIate conception is a stoIen beIief retroactiveIy inserted into Christianity.
September 26 at 3:51pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- you don't think we worship the same God?
September 26 at 3:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict BEGGING for an apology? Fuck you, Scott. You never apologized for telling people to go to hell either.
September 26 at 3:52pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ashman, that's trolling too far I think
September 26 at 3:53pm · Like
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John Ashman Damn. I need to up my dickishness.
September 26 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Scott, see what Ashman said?
September 26 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Here we go, everyone unite around a common enemy!
September 26 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Even I try to treat the deeply held beliefs I don't accept with a touch of respect
September 26 at 3:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Ashman might have been referring to me. Which is okay. To everyone else, I am sorry for my strong language. It is directed at Scott.
September 26 at 3:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, why are you blaming Isak for stuff I said? That's not fair to anyone
September 26 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Can we please block this lunatic from TNET again?
September 26 at 3:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger non est Deus insapiens dicit
September 26 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman Who wouId Geesus teII to "fucq off"?
See Translation
September 26 at 4:00pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The answer is Scott.
September 26 at 4:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ash man, I appreciate your attempt to move the conversation along to something else offensive, But it may not be helping. (Besides, I was about bring up polytheism as the easiest example of different god)
September 26 at 4:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman WeII, sure, you couId try that too.
September 26 at 4:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill
September 26 at 4:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=670if6Etx0o
Troll- Shane Koyczan
From the album and Graphic novel, 'Silence Is A Song I Know All The Words To' available for purchase, here http...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 4:04pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Not the same as yours?
September 26 at 4:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Scott made me cry.
September 26 at 4:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I feel very bullied.
September 26 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng 23000+ comments later and nothing new under the sun
September 26 at 4:07pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Noone is a medieval philosopher, right? Not a medieval historian?
September 26 at 4:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm still shocked about this literacy in the middle ages claim, in case anyone cares.
September 26 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger nihil novi in linea infinita
September 26 at 4:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI the Romans taught them
Romans Go Home - Monty Python's Life of Brian
Subscribe to the Official Monty Python Channel here - htt...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 4:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John ßwenkler, welcome to tNet... why did political governance decline from a Catholic view to a more secular one between the glory of Christendom and the 16th century? Was this principally because of Protestantism, or was there a population explosion of unruly peasants that needed to be controlled by a more Hobbesian rule... and can the Faith flourish in America?
September 26 at 4:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Are you suggesting a desire for a state religion?
September 26 at 4:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I doubt the British Anglicans look to the queen as 'defender of the faith' and desire that the system would be perfect if it were just more catholic.
September 26 at 4:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley Noone is a medieval everythingist, Samantha. He's on the committee that's producing a critical edition of Scotus's works, so he has to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Medieval "historical context".
September 26 at 4:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Or is it a desire for a "holy american empire"?
September 26 at 4:33pm · Like
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Joel HF I think Noone also has a degree is medieval studies. #credentialgnosis
September 26 at 4:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, he studied at PIMS in Toronto.
September 26 at 4:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger All the medievals could read. They just lied to Baron Zogby.
September 26 at 4:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley From what he says about it, that program definitely gave one a good sense of the medieval historical situation.
September 26 at 4:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, well then I'm just going to suspect you're remembering him wrong.
September 26 at 4:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Defer to the expert, Samantha Cohoe.
September 26 at 4:35pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I've heard him say things to that effect two or three times.
September 26 at 4:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, Wikipedia puts literacy in the 1100s at15-20%
September 26 at 4:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Has he published anything to that effect that I can read?
September 26 at 4:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where? In England? Europe as a whole?
September 26 at 4:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think the context was Europe as a whole
September 26 at 4:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Here is Mowgli, learning to trust the expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ILPl5FQaM
Trust in Me (English)- Jungle Book
Kaa singing "Trust in Me" from the Disney movie: THE JUNGLE BOOK
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 4:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Samantha, I don't think so, I'll ask him for sources next time I see him.
September 26 at 4:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry to be so skeptical. It's just a very surprising claim.
September 26 at 4:46pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am starting the freedom literacy movement: "liberate yourself from the epistemic authorities." THAT should keep the medieval stereotype going another 10k comments.
September 26 at 4:46pm · Like
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Joel HF A more liberal (less reflective) version of Samantha meets a considerably more dyspeptic Pater Edmund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNOuVhn_yRw
bad vicar
mitchell and web bad vicar
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 4:47pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley These are all the notes I have from that particular part of class:
"- initially they wanted to educate their people to talk/read Latin and preach
- preaching often in vernacular
- in medieval latin 'Litteratus' means you could read Latin, not just read simply"
September 26 at 4:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz John Ruplinger, German purity laws do not distinguish beer from non beer, and they are post-medieval. They distinguish lagers from ales (using older definitions of those terms, where lager was a hopped beer, and ale was not)
Indeed, hops only began to be used in the 11th century. The reason for the German purity laws, and especially the requirement of only hopped beer, and no grute ales, was because of a growing tendency, by newer brewers, to add toxic plants to the mash. Whereas anise and mugwort and the like were staples, newer brewers had been less scrupolous, adding deadly nightshade for example.
Rather than punish brewers who used toxic plants, they simply banned using anything other than hops as an additive. But that is to mandate a particular style of beer, not distinguish beer from non beer
It also prevented other additives besides hops in hopped beer. So both grute ales and, e.g., an Oatmeal Chocolate Stout would be banned
Best beer I ever brewed was based on this recipe: http://www.gruitale.com/rec_mugwort_stout.htm
gruitale.com :: Gruit Ale & Unhopped Beers, Brewing Herbs and Recipes
Gruit Ale & Unhopped Beers, Brewing Herbs and Recipes
GRUITALE.COM|BY ALEXANDRE BESSETTE
September 26 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF!!! I don't know if we can be friends anymore!!
September 26 at 4:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I have literally never been so offended in my entire life!!!!
September 26 at 4:52pm · Like
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Joel HF It was a joke!
September 26 at 4:52pm · Like
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Joel HF And I thought it was mostly offensive towards the pro state religion side.
September 26 at 4:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger kinda like the Johnson quote "little Latin, less Greek" signifying a gradeschool level knowledge, not complete ignorance. Just not the reading of all the great works in the original.
September 26 at 4:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If I ever say "I'm spiritual but not religious" you have my permission to put me down for my own good!
September 26 at 4:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF NB: I don't think those characters actually resemble anyone here.
September 26 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe THen maybe you shouldn't have called that woman a "version of Samantha!"
September 26 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The Vicar gets all the good lines in that clip!
September 26 at 4:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "not particularly religious?" "spiritual?" "interested?" are you testing me, Satan?
September 26 at 4:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "This is a place of peace!" "Oh please, that's a very recent idea, and NOT one I think is going to catch on!"
September 26 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well I don't know the literacy rate exactly in the middle ages. It did increase in some areas to a majority, but I think those were execeptions (such as some small communes, including one that tried to restore the Roman senate in the 12th century)
The rise of cathedral schools, colleges and finally universities (11th-13th centuries) did see a rise in literacy, among the clergy and religious certainly (especially among nuns actually). Don't think it spread to laity that much until later (which is why many "clerical" positions in government were still held by clerics)
But we could at least say this...the people weren't as ignorant as many would have you believe. Jacques Fournier's accounts of interviews with regular peasants and the like is fascinating for both showing the country simplicity of speech, but an amazing breadth of knowledge among the lowest rung. They knew their faith better than many literate today. Even knew the bible better (though, in fairness, their retelling of biblical stories were often embellished in hilarious ways)
September 26 at 5:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I only meant the comparison insofar as you were on the pro religious liberty side. Rewatching the clip, I can see how the unjust comparison would rankle. My humble apologies.
September 26 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ok, I just put a warm beer in the fridge and then, two minutes later, removed it again when I went to grab a beer.
September 26 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is a tragedy.
September 26 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Samantha, do we believe in the same God? IDK your belief-structure.
September 26 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I believe I'm going to take the kids to the lego store this evening....
September 26 at 5:04pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It seems to me that Avicenna and Thomas Aquinas believed in the same God.
September 26 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why not?
September 26 at 5:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or, at least, they believed in a God who's existence could be demonstrated by the same argument.
September 26 at 5:05pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I highly doubt that. Edward. yeah, you can prove god.
September 26 at 5:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia unmoved mover, first cause, personal, probably even loving, but not Triune.
September 26 at 5:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua is making me nostalgic for the medieval age and becoming illiterate. Hear that, Beitia. Old skool epistemic authority was more enlightened.
September 26 at 5:06pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, but how good a Muslim was Avicenna?
September 26 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley sure, but the former part is what is referred to by Romans 1:20
September 26 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that I don't know
September 26 at 5:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.
September 26 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://quran.com/4/171
Surat An-Nisa' [4:171] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
Surat An-Nisa' [verse 171] - O People of the Scripture, do...
QURAN.COM
September 26 at 5:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What Protestants do you think worship a different God than you? Just ones with heretical views on the Trinity?
September 26 at 5:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia clearly unitarians.
September 26 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe They aren't really Christians though
September 26 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think Avicenna was probably a fairly good Muslim. At least, Averroës criticizes him for mixing religious teachings (which, for Averroes, are only persuasive and not primary truths) with philosphy.
September 26 at 5:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Mormons certainly don't
September 26 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia nor Jehovahs
September 26 at 5:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think one can argue that Mormons (who, I know, aren't exactly protestants) don't worship the same God because they seem to be tri-theists.
September 26 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia actually they are more like polytheists (they like poly-things)
September 26 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley In fact, I think the Church has declared Mormon baptisms to be invalid
September 26 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Mormons do post mortem baptisms
September 26 at 5:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If the Church says we have valid baptism, then I think you need to acknowledge that we have the same God
September 26 at 5:11pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger Why I didn't answer the Peregrinator way above. It gets tricky when you start mixing up natural religion with heresy and false religion. But pretty sure that Deism = false religion. Jurt don' want to argue it.
September 26 at 5:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe None of those guys are Protestants
September 26 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know how far to push this.
September 26 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've always liked Mormons and Muslims, though, because they came up with a whole new book to justify their religion rather than trying to claim that the Church didn't understand Her own book .
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Even an atheistt can validly baptise an atheist
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger push, Beitia.
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The answer is far.
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And a Mormon can valid baptised a buddhist
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you didn't grow up in a predominantly Mormon area Edward
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Valid baptism isn't the only mark
September 26 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But that doesn't answer the question of whether a "Mormon baptism" would be valid.
September 26 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it isn't
September 26 at 5:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley "The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a "Dubium" regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormons. Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the validity of such Baptism, it seems appropriate to explain the reasons that have led to this decision and to the resulting change of practice."
September 26 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm
THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has given a negative response to a "Dubium" regarding the validity of Baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more commonly known as the Mormons. Given that this decision changes the past practice of not questioning the val…
EWTN.COM
September 26 at 5:15pm · Like · Remove Preview
Joshua Kenz It isn't, because they are henotheists
September 26 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz But under Hinckley they are trying to be accepted by mainstream protestantism, deemphasizing the wackier ideas.
September 26 at 5:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think one could argue that Mormon's can't validly baptize because they don't think the Trinity is what the Church says it is.
September 26 at 5:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Edward: because they perpetrated greater fraud? You like them more?
September 26 at 5:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, because they seem to me to be more honest.
September 26 at 5:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I had an argument years ago with a Baptist in a weird sect of Baptists that was based entirely on a misreading of Acts. They only baptized in the name of God, not the trinity
September 26 at 5:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and I'm not intending to criticize any particular non-Catholic)
September 26 at 5:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mormons can validly baptise, the same way an atheist could...if they intend to do what the Church does, e.g. if a Catholic mom gets in an accident and her baby is dying and a Mormon comes to assist, and she says I am Catholic, I want you to baptise the baby etc, that would be valid
September 26 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm criticizing all of them
September 26 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Here's a question for you egg-heads--most of the sacraments require a very minimal intention by the minister of the sacrament: "do what the church does." Even if the minister misunderstands or disbelieves what the church proclaims is done in the various sacraments, he still validly baptizes as long as he intends to "do that thing called baptism."
Recently, a lot of ink has been shed questioning whether many/most marriages are invalid b/c the intention of the ministers (i.e. the married couple) is incorrect. E.g. the married couple intends to use abc, or intends to probably get divorced, or something like that.
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Well, they probably don't do valid baptisms then
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Why the greater requirement for intention in marriage?
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Episcopalians are ceasing to be actual Christians, in that many don't validly baptise (creator, redeemer, sanctifier crap). Same goes for the mainstream presybyterians.
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF (And forgive any errors in terminology.)
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What does Unam Sanctam say? I forgot.
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Intending to use abc does not invalidate a marriage
September 26 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hey, I already got lambasted for that, John
September 26 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I've heard the opposite of that, Joshua Kenz
September 26 at 5:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz There isn't a greater intention, there are stupid American tribunals trying to "established precedent" even though stare decisis is not a thing in canon law
September 26 at 5:20pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Ilots of secular marriages I've been to lately didn't even have vows.
September 26 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz And then you heard wrong
September 26 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger really. I missed it, Beitia.
September 26 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--this was my suspicion. So is the old school "manualist" answer for degree of intention need more or less the same in Marriage as in Baptism, confession, etc.?
September 26 at 5:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott called me a Heretic on Isak's fb for that specifically.
September 26 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley With Mormon Baptisms, though, I'd wonder if they could form the correct intention, given their own preconceptions about Baptism.
September 26 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Look, are you handing marital rights over to the other, freely? That is the essence here. Intending to hold off children, or only have two, or even not to have any children does not invalidate in and of itself, nor does the belief in the possibility of divorce
September 26 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz An atheist can, so why not
September 26 at 5:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia seriously Edward, grow up in Mormon-dense Idaho. it isn't a religion, it's a ponzi scheme
September 26 at 5:23pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz It doesn't matter what they belief. The sacramental context differs
September 26 at 5:23pm · Like
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Joel HF B/c a horribly heretical priest who disbelieves in transubstantiation will still perform a valid mass (assuming proper matter and form), w/ even a super minimalistic intention of "doing the thing catholics call a mass"
September 26 at 5:23pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict And that is so incredible and beautiful!!
September 26 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the handling of marriage in recent years is puzzling
September 26 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What if you don't intend fidelity?
September 26 at 5:24pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Now if a couple marries with the intention of having it only last a few years, that would be invalid. If one marries with the intention to not have children, such that, if the other spouse requested it, they would refuse and such that not having hildren is, as it were, a condition of their marriage, that would be invalid.
September 26 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure it does matter what they believe, Joshua, the Mormon person if "intention to do what the Church does" is necessary for a valid sacrament then if the Mormon intends a Mormon baptism or such, it wouldn't be valid either.
September 26 at 5:25pm · Like
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Joel HF Edward Langley, I think Joshua Kenz is right, a mormon could perform a baptism, e.g. in an emergency on the battlefield or whatever. But Joshua Kenz, it'd still be a question (and the CDF has answered in the negative) concerning "mormon baptisms."
September 26 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley (unless something has changed since Aquinas)
September 26 at 5:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Intended non-fidelity would also make it invalid.
September 26 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger my suspicion: lots of null nullifications. Benedict raised an eyebrow over it a few years ago.
September 26 at 5:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia even if a Mormon or atheist baptizes someone, after the emergency if the person survives then there would still be a conditional baptism
September 26 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But to marry thinking no children is not invalid, as long as the no children is not, explicitly or implicitly, a condition of marriage. Just as if one intended infidelity from the get go, and so on.
Again, Langley, anyone and I mean anyone can baptise validly. Just because I am an atheist or a buddhist or even a Satanist, does not prevent me, in se, from a valid intention
September 26 at 5:27pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia careful John, remember the canons of Trent
September 26 at 5:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wouldn't prima facie acceptance of the possibility of divorce invalidate the "til death" part of the vows?
September 26 at 5:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia divorce can be licit. It's the "remarriage" thing that is illicit
September 26 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz IOW, a baptism at the request of a dying mother is by its very circumstance and place not a Mormon baptism. What matters is the sacramental signification. And that is there
September 26 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF By "Mormon baptism," I mean the baptism given by Mormons to Mormons in a Mormon church. So the difference is that a mormon could intend to do what christians do, same as any other minister of baptism, on the battlefield for instance. But the question is what they intend in the specifically mormon ceremony called baptism.
September 26 at 5:28pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe True...
September 26 at 5:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua, I guess I accept this "anyone and I mean anyone can baptise validly" in principle, but I wonder about what the conditions for a valid baptism are in practice: what exactly is "intending to do what the Church does".
September 26 at 5:28pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Langley it means I intend to do a baptism, even though I think it bullshit and stupid, fine I will do your "baptism". That suffices.
September 26 at 5:29pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz No, Mrs. Cohoe, it does not
September 26 at 5:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, all the other person has to do is pour the water and say the right words?
September 26 at 5:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Don't remember, Beitia.
September 26 at 5:30pm · Like
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Joel HF W/ the right intention. If you are doing it as part of a play, or something, that'd be an obvious example of lacking the right intention.
September 26 at 5:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley But that, to me, implies a question about whether + to what degree one's preconceived notions can hinder formation of a correct intention.
September 26 at 5:31pm · Like
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John Ashman Funny thing though. I deeply believe that Jesus was gay and that he never believed he was the son of anyone aside from Joseph. But your heretical (to me) and incorrect beliefs don't bother or offend me. I just find them to be...odd.
September 26 at 5:32pm · Like
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Joel HF In the case of most of the sacraments, the "intention" required is pretty darn low, as far as I can tell. And w/ the possible exception of marriage, which even by Mr. Kenz's account is at least slightly higher than baptism.
September 26 at 5:32pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Beitia, divorce is per se illicit. Even in the rare case where divorce (a vinculis) is even possible, it is granted as a privilege or indulgence, not a right, And only by the Church.
The state has no authority to claim a divorce a vinculis. However, since the Church does nto recognize dissolution of the bond performed by the Church, or annulments of the Church, and since the conditions of separation with the bond remaining often are different in the Church than separation in civil law (and so too the effects), we are allowed to use, as it were a legal fiction, civil divorce for purely civil effects.
But only when separation is justified (interestingly I have never met a Catholic who followed Church law on separation...and there is law there)
September 26 at 5:32pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Who is John Ashman?
September 26 at 5:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ashman, gayness is a modern construct. No one was gay before 1800
September 26 at 5:33pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley That's why the hypothetical is interesting: could the Mormon invalidly baptize in extremis because he intends to do what the Mormon church does?
September 26 at 5:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joshua, I know:
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the Church errs, in that she declares that, for many causes, a separation may take place between husband and wife, in regard of bed, or in regard of cohabitation, for a determinate or for an indeterminate period; let him be anathema.
September 26 at 5:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley Perhaps I just don't understand what people mean by the "sacramental context"
September 26 at 5:34pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Edward Langley, my understanding is that it is for that reason that the Church requires conditional rebaptism for cases like that.
September 26 at 5:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Then Mr. Langley he would not be doing what the Catholi mother asked, IOW not my example
September 26 at 5:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The intention need in marriage is not a slightly higher account Joel HF those examples of invalid intentions involve actually repugning the thing that is marriage. E.g. if a priest is heretical, he may still celebrate Mass, though he doesn't believe in it. But he can say the words over the matter and not intend the sacrament,.
September 26 at 5:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What is "church law on separation?"
September 26 at 5:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz SEPARATION WITH THE BOND REMAINING
Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.
Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.
§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.
§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.
Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.
§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.
Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.
Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.
September 26 at 5:39pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's it? No other causes?
September 26 at 5:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well moralists usually allow for a temporary separation, by mutual consent, e.g. when a father works as a migrant worker
September 26 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But "otherwise renders common life too difficult" is a broad statement, no?
September 26 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, that's pretty strict.
September 26 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, I suppose so. I missed that line on the first read.
September 26 at 5:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the "tacit condonation" part is definitely a hard teaching.
September 26 at 5:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Catholic teaching on marriage is pretty hard generally. But then again, so is Christ in the scriptures.
September 26 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well of course it is. We don't call it the bond of marriage for nothing
September 26 at 5:45pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Vinculo Matrimonii
September 26 at 5:46pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Chains!
September 26 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Doesn't seem like it takes into account the potential for power differential within a marriage, and the intense pressure there might be on the innocent spouse not to immediately disrupt common life
September 26 at 5:47pm · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6xU96KLBL4
#chained_gnosis
September 26 at 5:47pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, I like the 1917 wording better
ART. II: De separatione tori, mensae et habitationis.
Can 1128. Coniuges servare debent vitae coniugalis communionem, nisi iusta causa eos excuset.
Can 1129 §1. Propter coniugis adulterium, alter coniux, manente vinculo, ius habet solvendi, etiam in perpetuum, vitae communionem, nisi in crimen consenserit, aut eidem causam dederit, vel illud expresse aut tacite condonaverit, vel ipse quoque idem crimen commiserit.
§2. Tacita condonatio habetur, si coniux innocens, postquam de crimine adulterii certior factus est, cum altero coniuge sponte, maritali affectu, conversatus fuerit; praesumitur vero, nisi sex intra menses coniugem adulterum expulerit vel dereliquerit, aut legitimam accusationem fecerit.
Can 1130. Coniux innocens, sive iudicis sententia sive propria auctoritate legitime discesserit, nulla unquam obligatione tenetur coniugem adulterum rursus admittendi ad vitae consortium; potest autem eundem admittere aut revocare, nisi ex ipsius consensu ille statum matrimonio contrarium susceperit.
Can 1131 §1. Si alter coniux sectae acatholicae nomen dederit; si prolem acatholice educaverit; si vitam criminosam et ignominiosam ducat; si grave seu animae seu corporis periculum alteri facessat; si saevitiis vitam communem nimis difficilem reddat, haec aliaque id genus, sunt pro altero coniuge totidem legitimae causae discedendi, auctoritate Ordinarii loci, et etiam propria auctoritate, si de eis certo constet, et periculum sit in mora.
§2. In omnibus his casibus, causa separationis cessante, vitae consuetudo restauranda est; sed si separatio ab Ordinario pronuntiata fuerit ad certum incertumve tempus, coniux innocens ad id non obligatur, nisi ex decreto Ordinarii vel exacto tempore.
Can 1132. Instituta separatione, filii educandi sunt penes coniugem innocentem, et si alter coniugum sit acatholicus, penes coniugem catholicum, nisi in utroque casu Ordinarius pro ipsorum filiorum bono, salva semper eorundem catholica educatione, aliud decreverit.
It gives some sense of what constitutes grave harm or making common life too difficult. Suh as becoming a heretic or trying to raise the children as heretics
September 26 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe btw, I'm not really objecting. I would have expected it to be strict.
September 26 at 5:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, you should read the canonical commentary on this. It is generally admitted, and this isn't new, that having relations under some form of duress can rebut the presumption of tacitly condoning
September 26 at 5:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia always back to sex with you guys
September 26 at 5:51pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I call protestants idolaters and this is where you take it.....
September 26 at 5:51pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'd be disappointed if it weren't strict. The day you guys compromise on your various strict principles is the day I can stop wondering if the claims are all true.
September 26 at 5:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's very kind of you
September 26 at 5:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, and with regard to the idolatry comment, Michael Beitia, I was told by the chaplains at TAC that there was no need for me to be conditionally rebaptized, and I was baptized by a Presbyterian
September 26 at 5:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So either the TAC chaplains were playing pretty fast and loose with my salvation,
September 26 at 5:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or there is firm consensus that standard Presbyterian baptisms are valid
September 26 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia valid Baptism does not necessarily imply same God. but like I said, not sure how hard to push this one
September 26 at 5:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mormon baptisms aren't valid because they baptize in the name of their God, who is different. We baptize in the name of the same God.
September 26 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that is, for a Catholic the reason that Presbyterian or other protestant baptisms are valid is because of the Catholic Church
September 26 at 5:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So our baptisms are good. I don't see another way to read it.
September 26 at 5:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I just answered that
September 26 at 5:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Presbyterians aren't intending to baptize "as the Catholic Church baptizes" though
September 26 at 5:57pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia uhm, yeah they are
September 26 at 5:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #secretunderlyingcatholicistygnosis
September 26 at 5:58pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe We intend to baptize the way Scripture tells us to baptize. We don't care how the (Roman) Catholic Church baptizes
September 26 at 5:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (that's where you got scripture....)
September 26 at 5:59pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe that's a separate argument, I think
September 26 at 5:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but with regards to same God/different God, I wonder how much can be made from TULIP
September 26 at 6:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ?
September 26 at 6:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia on that note, it's off to the lego store
September 26 at 6:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe jerk. have fun.
September 26 at 6:02pm · Like
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John Boyer If they weren't intending in the same way, from the point of view of the church, converts would have to be re baptized or conditionally baptized.
September 26 at 6:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it is intended the same way, but that's because we have the same beliefs about God, not because we're trying to do "what the Catholic Church intends," as in the case of the Morman emergency baptism example
September 26 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley You know, I wish "neo-Scholasticism" meant people started writing commentaries on the Sentences or the Summa or some such work again.
September 26 at 6:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Instead we get a bunch of historical studies written by people trying to get tenure.
September 26 at 6:11pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Now I want to play with Legos...
September 26 at 6:12pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley You know, it'd be nice if some of these arguments were separated out nicely so that people could follow up on them later.
September 26 at 6:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley On some sort of forum-like thing, perhaps.
September 26 at 6:37pm · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald This discussion of baptism reminds me of a conversation I once overheard between my parents. My mom (protestant) was complaining about my dad's lapsed faith and quoting the text in I Corinthians about unbelievers being "covered" by the faith of a believing spouse. My dad wryly replied: "well, your faith may be what is 'covering' me but my church is what is 'covering' your faith."
September 26 at 6:47pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, the standard is not to do what the Church intends, but to do what the Church does. You can have your heretical beliefs about what baptism is, but you are still intending to do a "baptism". You may think what the Catholic Church believes about baptism is wrong while doing it, but you are still intending "baptism", namely to do what Christ ordered the apostles to do.
The Mormon's fail at even this standard, not because they don't believe the same about baptism, but because, ultimately, what they call baptism is only called that by equivocation...it differs not from baptising someone in the name of Xenu or in the name of Shiva and Ganesha.
Put it this way, when an atheist does an emergency baptism, it works, because even though he doesn't believe any of it, he is still intending to do what Christians do, and when he says the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost", however much he doesn't believe those Persons exist, and however deficient is understanding of what we believe about them, he still intends to be doing as Christians do and to be saying the names of our God.
Whereas Mormons really intend a different god, and only use the same names with pure equivocation, which is why it might as well be in the name of Shiva.
September 26 at 7:03pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Edward Langley, socraticum.com might take off more if it wasn't constantly down during the day
September 26 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If you have an account with http://socraticum.com, you now can ask a question by just sending an email to replies@socraticum.com, as long as the email address you're sending from is the email address associated with your Socraticum account.
Socraticum.com
Discussion group for the philosophically minded
SOCRATICUM.COM
September 26 at 7:04pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, that's odd, I've never seen it down.
September 26 at 7:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I keep an eye on it, at least seven or eight times a day.
September 26 at 7:05pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is much of the time...gives an "Application Error" Next time I see it I will send you a screenshot
September 26 at 7:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Thanks, I'm curious as to what's happening, could you also include a date and time so that I can consult the logs?
September 26 at 7:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg WHO CAN RECEIVE BAPTISM?
1246 "Every person not yet baptized and only such a person is able to be baptized." (CCC)
September 26 at 7:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I got kicked off of the TAC alum fb page. That's positively medieval.
In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
September 26 at 7:40pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm shocked, shocked.
September 26 at 7:44pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Gambling? In Casablanca?
September 26 at 7:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Legos? Why not?
September 26 at 8:02pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia yes, that's the Tower of Orthanc on the right....
September 26 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia regarding Baptism:
3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema:
September 26 at 8:09pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Is that your collection or at the store?
September 26 at 8:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia a small piece of the collection
September 26 at 8:15pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick We always grew up being told that Lego was the one thing that you could never have too much of
September 26 at 8:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Anybody on Spotify and have a great playlist for an abandoned philosopher's wives' craft night?
September 26 at 8:25pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer Around here they're called "philosophy widows."
September 26 at 8:25pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe that makes it sound so permanent
September 26 at 8:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe they're here see ya tNET
September 26 at 8:27pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I want in on this philosopher widow's craft night..
September 26 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Michael Beitia "kids what did I say about touching dad's Legos"
September 26 at 8:40pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia no they're all the kids'. My sister "appropriated" my legos from youth and now they are locked in a storage unit somewhere in Southwestern Idaho...
September 26 at 8:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hahaha... I still have mine. After taking the kids to the movie they told me "we have all the 1980's spaceman ones at home"... "Yup"
September 26 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Anyone have any tips to give me for reading the Illiad... I have such a hard time following it every time I read it and should probably do a better job since I have to lead a discussion on it next Friday...
September 26 at 8:45pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Cliff notes.
September 26 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Well here is the odyssey http://youtu.be/qf3XrZW2o4I
Homer's Odyssey - Thug Notes Summary and Analysis
I have heard the Siren's song. And all they say is...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 8:48pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Haha! I love those!
September 26 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh great, I asked for advice from my husband and now he showed me how to Wikipedia every person/town/etc on my kindle... I knew there was a reason I wouldn't like this kindle thing... (Disclaimer: kindle is being used because of the ease of reading while taking care of a newborn)
September 26 at 9:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tip one: skim the list of ships
September 26 at 9:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia tip two: Armor is important
September 26 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "philosopher widows craft" doesn't have a homey feel at night. Caleb is "gone". What kind of craft is that?
September 26 at 9:18pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Samantha: https://play.spotify.com/.../playlist/3OyYF0LlX51u2xMnFHV0eX
Live Like Isak
By Isak Benedict
Save
September 26 at 9:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tip three: Book one starts with anger, book 24 ends with magnanimity.
September 26 at 9:21pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia tip four: DONT mess with Diomedes:
http://greekmythcomix.wordpress.com/.../deaths-in-the.../
Deaths in the Iliad: a Classics Infographic
As requested: buy this as a poster in the UK! Or buy this as a poster in the US! NEW: go here to find out exactly how...
GREEKMYTHCOMIX.WORDPRESS.COM
September 26 at 9:22pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger re. Iliad: outline the whole thing. Worthwhile if you have time.
September 26 at 9:23pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Lauren - if you can find anything by Glenn Arbery, I have found his lectures and commentaries on the Iliad quite good!
September 26 at 9:28pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict http://www.amazon.com/Why.../dp/1882926595/ref=sr_1_1...
Why Literature Matters: Permanence and the Politics of Reputation
Through an examination of the work of poets and...
AMAZON.COM
September 26 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia okay, this is too funny (salty language):
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/diomedes.html
Badass of the Week: Diomedes
The ultimate list of all badasses past and present.
BADASSOFTHEWEEK.COM
September 26 at 9:32pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict ^Love that site
September 26 at 9:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Michael - salty language?! On TNET?!?!
September 26 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia shit, I like to fucking warn people
September 26 at 9:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Next thing you know we will start engaging in impassioned arguments!
September 26 at 9:33pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Pretty sure I managed to go 23,000+ comments without dropping the big one and then came the troll again
September 26 at 9:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matthew - no impassioned arguments allowed
September 26 at 9:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the problem, for me, is that working in a blue collar, male dominated, industry, I hear the f-bomb approximately 5000 times a day. never in reference to anything, but more like the trashy way of saying "uh"
September 26 at 9:35pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I do this at work, with variations:
http://xkcd.com/90/
xkcd: Jacket
Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...
XKCD.COM
September 26 at 9:37pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict It does tend to lose its rhetorical power with frequent use. I think that's the point with those words you can't say on TV.
September 26 at 9:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Assuming they have seen the original three, when, if ever, is it permissible to allow one's children to watch Lucas's last three Star Wars movies?
September 26 at 9:37pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Great question. I say never. If they want to do it themselves when they've left the house, that's their decision.
September 26 at 9:38pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia there was an argument at the pit when I was a senior that went along the lines that the f-bomb must always be said violently. Fleury, RIP, ended it by muttering "that's fucking stupid"
September 26 at 9:39pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict What's the point of having words you can't use unless you use them?
September 26 at 9:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia My older kids have seen them. The are natural born (that's I lie, it is imitation) critics.
September 26 at 9:40pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Matthew - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxf1c3fzDOU
Star Wars Episode I: What Went Wrong
The true account of why Episode I was simply terrible.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 9:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Jar Jar is a key to all this."
September 26 at 9:41pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson, you earlier today invited some thoughts on Federalist 51. I posted what follows below on my thread about Plato's Laws, but I am posting it here as well in response to your invitation.
Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that "divide and conquer" has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people. In Federalist 51, Madison employs this principle with a vengeance: "This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other--that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights." Since the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican government, the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different branches. As for the government as a whole: "In the compound republic of America, the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct governments, and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate departments." Finally, society itself "will be BROKEN into so many parts, interests and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority." The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of authority. Many governments long before the American experiment had similar divisions. The problem is Madison's willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for "better motives." As he famously wrote, "Ambition must be made to counter ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place." This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and self-restraint. After all, one serves the "general good" when one acts ambitiously, or so we are taught. Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of "checks and balances," as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for virtue. In Choruses from the Rock, T.S. Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment friends.
They constantly try to escape
From the darkness outside and within
By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.
But the man that is shall shadow
The man that pretends to be.
This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the so-called "common good."
I therefore do not find persuasive Matthew J. Peterson's argument that Madison's proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these terms. Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices.
And so we are left with Eliot's question:
What life have you, if you have not life together?
There is not life that is not in community,
And no community not lived in praise of GOD.
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Michael Beitia I got dragged to that movie the summer between Junior and senior year. AWEFUL
September 26 at 9:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson, here's a companion piece to the above from my thread on Plato's Laws. There you wrote: "First off, if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of faction, methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian religion, and the words of Jesus Christ in the gospels, all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is needed."
I do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of faction. But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political art, the business of which is the care of souls, which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of faction. That Madison rejected this ancient ideal is, I think, undeniable since in Federalist 10 Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of faction. (If Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle elsewhere, that is another matter that I cannot address here at the moment.)
In response to your claim that the Christian religion and the words of Jesus Himself suggest that something supernatural is needed to overcome faction, I wholeheartedly agree. But that is quite a different point and it does not, as you seem to suggest, put Madison in the Christian camp. St. Augustine's City of God makes this clear. There St. Augustine insists that the natural virtues are essential to human happiness, even though he is quick to point out their limitations. The natural virtues are necessary but not sufficient to perfect us. We need the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity to overcome the factions in our souls. But that is not because the natural virtues are unnecessary. St. Augustine does not reject them or the effort required to establish therm in our souls. He simply insists that the natural virtues cannot on their own make us happy, for the natural virtues require constant effort so that we might win the battle within ourselves against our own propensities to sin. Hence, even when we defeat temptation and act justly, temperately, courageously and prudently, we still cannot be at rest because it is a constant battle against our fallen nature. Yet this does not mean we should be indifferent to the effort to discipline ourselves in order to be good. After all, despite our fallen nature, we are ordered both naturally and supernaturally to what is good. Hence, there is no agreement here between true Christianity and Madison's willingness to give up on the causes of faction and deal with the effects only. I have argued elsewhere that I think Madison's view of nature is non-teleological, and that is the essential difference between Madison and the traditional Christian thinkers. Having faction in our souls is not our natural condition; it is our fallen state. Yet we remain oriented by nature to the good, and that orientation is not destroyed by original sin. Hence, the political art is obliged to address the causes of faction even though it cannot, as you rightly point out, get rid of faction without supernatural assistance.
September 26 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm sorry, Jeffrey Bond, but this argument is odd to me. It seems evident on the face of things that people have their private interest (factually) and pursue it. And, given the fallen state of man, and the propensity to sinfulness, it happens that frequently men do not attempt to gain their natural or supernatural end. That is the matter of politics.
Taking Federalist 10 or 51 out of the context of a rhetorical and persuasive argument for the formation of a union, and making it a political philosophy in itself, is odd, and I think unfair to the text.
September 26 at 9:55pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I don't see why it is odd to unpack the assumptions behind a political document, especially one that has been hailed as the sole contribution by an American to the history of political thought. The rhetorical context does not change the principles involved. Yes, fallen man is known to pursue his self-interest. The question is, how does the political art address this fact. Madison's proposal takes a certain path. Why can we not critique it, especially since it has been so formative of the American psyche.
September 26 at 10:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IDK, Aristotle himself spends more time discussing the "mixed regime" - which is what the American Republic is - than any other regime.
September 26 at 10:02pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But Aristotle first sets forth the principles by which he can meaningfully descend to the particulars. And he puts those principles into play in his analysis. He does not abandon the notion of a best regime in his effort to analyze actual existing regimes.
September 26 at 10:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "Best" is not the same as "possible"
September 26 at 10:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Of course. But possible cannot be evaluated without a view to the best. That is the hallmark of classical political philosophy.
September 26 at 10:05pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I gotta bow out tonight. Listening to "Visions of Johanna" and drinking cheap TJs beer.
But I'll be back. Appreciate the comments.
September 26 at 10:07pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond It is clear that Aristotle thinks kingship or aristocracy is best. This is so because in both cases the ruling power contributes to the good life. When Aristotle investigates the lesser regimes of oligarchy and democracy, he rates and ranks them according to the standards established in evaluating aristocracy and kingship.
September 26 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Isn't polity a mix of the demos and the aristoi?!? Isn't that the best possible?
September 26 at 10:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think that aristocracy or kingship being the best is subject to debate, and Aristotle spends much time on the mixed regime because that's what is the best under normal human conditions
September 26 at 10:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Trying. To. Stay. On. Target. And. Off. tNET.
September 26 at 10:09pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF Can we all admit that we live in a different regime than the one Madison et al. founded?
September 26 at 10:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond There are a number of senses of best that have to be sorted out. Best in the absolute sense. Best possible. Best for most times and places.
September 26 at 10:10pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond It is clear that kingship and aristocracy are best simply because he uses their contribution to the good life as the measure by which others are judged. Aristotle rewrites the demands of the oligarchs and the democrats so that their claim to rule is based on what they contribute to the good life, not just mere life.
September 26 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What is the point of reading the Federalists, Matthew J. Peterson? Historical curiosity? Getting to the true meaning of the constitution? Political philosophy?
September 26 at 10:12pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'd say historical curiosity, but I'm the one with #perpetualrevolutiongnosis
September 26 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think Matthew would say getting to the true meaning of the Constitution, but that would also be part of political philosophy. But when he returns--if he can stay away--I am sure he will answer.
September 26 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Joel, I think we are living in the logical extension of the regime Madison founded. The principles seem unchanged to me, though equality is fast replacing liberty as the political goal.
September 26 at 10:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Locke leads to Rousseau.
September 26 at 10:18pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia and from there to Zizek.
September 26 at 10:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "tolerance is the only virtue in the west"
September 26 at 10:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, but tolerance as a dogmatic principle rather than as part of the virtue of charity.
September 26 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes it is, and "tolerance" leads to the worst sort of "intolerance" - promotion of vice and outlawing virtue. But I think that is distinct from the founding
September 26 at 10:20pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The real question is should I have scotch, bourbon, cognac or some sort of gin drink.
September 26 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scotch
September 26 at 10:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley All this political stuff is a sign of intellectual laziness
September 26 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (preferably an Islay)
September 26 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Locke was Jefferson's supreme hero. And Locke is the source of the toleration principle you see in action. That was the founding.
September 26 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not exactly
September 26 at 10:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Why not?
September 26 at 10:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley "However, as we will see in time, during periods of intellectual decadence, of intellectual fatigue, during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical philosophy, during these periods one does nothing but morality."
http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/
September 26 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Who's in charge of the Charles De Koninck website? that preview is horrendous!
September 26 at 10:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The First Amendment is pure Locke. So are the principles of consent, social contract, sovereignty, etc.
September 26 at 10:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia toleration, rightly understood, I think, allows free individuals a social sphere within which to act. The modern "tolerance" voices scream down all who make a choice to act contrary to the will of the loudest faction
September 26 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The modern tolerance factions are just trying to rectify the plight of oppressed minorities . . . and if you don't understand that, you're eeeeeeeeevil.
September 26 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond For in Locke we live and move and have our being.
September 26 at 10:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Actually, a lot of the enlightenment political principles can be traced back to the eve of the High Middle Ages.
September 26 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Scotus is the first to enunciate the view that the consensus populi is the legitimating principle of government (in his commentary on the 4th book of the Sentences)
September 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley William of Ockham basically invented the notion of subjective right.
September 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley What's new in Locke is the idea that the right to property is the fundamental subjective right.
September 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Charlie Rich. Such a talented soul. But wild. Boozing. Blazing waste of talent.
And when he comes out with that jazz/blues/American country album after years of silence after years of debauchery and then dies. Well. It does something for me.
And when he sings this song, I think he means it.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/lXqDyytuRvo?autoplay=1
Charlie Rich "I Feel Like Going Home" 1973 Version
Produced by Billy Sherrill. Issued in 1973 as the B side to...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Consent of the population may not be the legitimating principle, but it is a sine qua non, factually
September 26 at 10:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which causes him problems when it comes to important things like taxation.
September 26 at 10:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But Locke puts it all in a pretty package.
September 26 at 10:28pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier http://www.nationalreview.com/.../ralphism-vs-being...
Peter Augustine Lawler - Ralphism vs. Being Personal?
As I complained before, I can’t seem to get things to stick...
NATIONALREVIEW.COM
September 26 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My guess is that the political theories of people like Suarez and such were, de facto, more important. People like Locke generally wrote to get the masses on board.
September 26 at 10:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ugh, we're so close... should I stick around for 23456?
September 26 at 10:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrpRHznWSiQ
HANK WILLIAMS "I`ll Never Get Out Of This World Alive" Deutsche 78er MGM 1952
Deutsche Schellack MGM 0152 .
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:29pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia okay if this turns into country music hour, I'm out.
September 26 at 10:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/H1DO7SnZy34
Feel Like Going Home ~ Charlie Rich + Lyrics Below
"Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:31pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I, on the other hand, might be in. just sayin'
September 26 at 10:31pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia God love you Ferrier, but I hate your musical choices...
September 26 at 10:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and I'm sure that statement is convertable
September 26 at 10:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What's next? Little Bobby Dylan and Johnny Cash?
September 26 at 10:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Old country charlie rich does jazz in his old age:
http://youtu.be/pZtX_yJ7k1A
Charlie Rich ~ Pictures & Paintings
Charlie Rich performing Pictures & Paintings in 1992.
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJeFcOqzdXc
Claudio Monteverdi - Il ritorno di Ulisse in Patria
Credits: http://www.allmusic.com/album/monteverdi-il-rito...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:36pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Richard Delahide Ferrier Merle Haggard.
September 26 at 10:38pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Waylon Jennings sings about fallen human nature before becoming completely steeped in debauchery:
http://youtu.be/-vEGDSD-fYs
Waylon Jennings Lay It Down
Waylon Jennings Lay It Down from The Journey Six Strings Away Box Set. Travelin' down on different roads...
YOUTUBE.COM|BY WAYLON JENNINGS
September 26 at 10:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Heh, heh, heh:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZHAFmFsb9XM?autoplay=1
Merle Haggard -- The Fightin' Side Of Me
1968
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier How did you know, Matthew J. Peterson?
September 26 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLhH2wCtAQ
Merle Haggard - Fightin' side of me
A modern reflection of the song in our Time. (2010-2012)
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oof
September 26 at 10:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Here's Waylon doing a song Charlie Rich made famous:
http://youtu.be/dse6a-wFXDs
Waylon Jennings.... Good Time Charlie's got the Blues
I just can't stay away from the ' lonesome on'ry and...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson So good.
September 26 at 10:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley "However, as we will see in time, during periods of intellectual decadence, of intellectual fatigue, during periods in which intelligences are too exhausted to give themselves to disinterested speculation which in reality conditions all ethical philosophy, during these periods one does nothing but morality."
http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/
September 26 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "A Thomist cannot view history the history of philosophy otherwise. With St. Thomas we assist in an immense intellectual effort of humanity. St. Thomas was a superman of formidable proportion: and one can say that the difficulties that he encountered in his milieu were proportional to his greatness. Human ignorance has something of the brutal. Although it is not more cruel than weakness. Today we are spoken to always of the persecution of Galileo, when in reality, the difficulties which this man encountered were childishness compared to those of St. Thomas. The middle ages finished by digesting St. Thomas a little. The regional excommunications of his doctrine were lifted, and the Dominican Order set to the work.
But the intelligence of humanity was extremely fatigued by this immense effort. (page 23) The curve descends. Scholastic quarrels became more and more verbal. Dogmatic theology would soon cede precedence to moral theology, moral theology also decapitated into theology of sin: the essence of virtue soon became the pure absence of sin. During periods of intellectual decadence, theologians speak only of sin. In order to justify it, they fall into a vicious circle: We speak a great deal about sin, because there is a great deal of it, they say.
The descent of the curve lead us to Luther, who has exercised so profound and quasi-determinating an influence on all modern spirituality.
Luther succumbed to fatigue. He allowed himself to be led by this current of degradation. Here are his own words: “I am no more than a man apt to let myself be led by society ( by mass ) drunkenness, movement of the flesh, negligence, and other importunities. (page 24) Ego otiosus et crapulosus sedeo tota die.” I am here from morning to evening and get drunk."
September 26 at 10:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvdmxszsDM8
"Pancho and Lefty" - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard
"Pancho and Lefty" - Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 10:57pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley - Not that there's anything Wrong with that...
September 26 at 11:01pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill This! Could answer so much:)
September 26 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley "The morality of slaves wants to realize a return to the amorphous indetermination of matter. The morality of masters wants to create an armature of habit which elevates us above ourselves: which renders us divine. Hence the emphasis on force.
The morality of slaves is essentially impious. It tends to the destruction of all spontaneity. It codifies. It formalizes. It destroys reason. It tends towards independence: it becomes the categorical imperative. It sets itself above metaphysics. It has a horror of metaphysics, because the latter opens horizons too vast: it gives us vertigo. Vertigo must be ruled by force: but force is terrible; arduous, requires a positive and constructive asceticism. This morality is impious, because it uses God as an instrument. Having exiled reason, having banished metaphysics, it (fouch? bonct?) (thinks? wishes?) that it justifies itself. To do this, it declares all laws divine after having turned away (?) from God toward whom morality should elevate us, after having demolished reason, which is the very essence of morality. Laws become extrinsic constraints which destroy us. They aim at the destruction of the passions, although the passions are the triumph of nature, and although they are essential to morality. (page 8) They establish feebleness as an ideal."
September 26 at 11:03pm · Edited · Like
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Liz Neill Hy! Oh never mind.
September 26 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I see now, Mr. Langley. You have not succumb to fatigue and cannot condescend to speak of mere morality or the archetonic art. And here I thought you were being humble merely.
September 26 at 11:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Another fav:
http://youtu.be/4uSFw165Qk0
Willie Nelson - Me and Paul
Yesterday's Wine 1971
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 11:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think CDK here is indicating that there _is_ an evil here—he seems to be paralleling this sentiment of Chesterton's: "It is foolish, generally speaking, for a philosopher to set fire to another philosopher in Smithfield Market because they do not agree in their theory of the universe. That was done very frequently in the last decadence of the Middle Ages, and it failed altogether in its object. But there is one thing that is infinitely more absurd and unpractical than burning a man for his philosophy. This is the habit of saying that his philosophy does not matter, and this is done universally in the twentieth century, in the decadence of the great revolutionary period. General theories are everywhere contemned; the doctrine of the Rights of Man is dismissed with the doctrine of the Fall of Man. Atheism itself is too theological for us to-day. Revolution itself is too much of a system; liberty itself is too much of a restraint. We will have no generalizations. Mr. Bernard Shaw has put the view in a perfect epigram: "The golden rule is that there is no golden rule." We are more and more to discuss details in art, politics, literature. A man's opinion on tramcars matters; his opinion on Botticelli matters; his opinion on all things does not matter. He may turn over and explore a million objects, but he must not find that strange object, the universe; for if he does he will have a religion, and be lost. Everything matters—except everything."
September 26 at 11:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I am being humble, Mr. Ruplinger: humility involves knowing the extent of one's powers and acting accordingly.
September 26 at 11:08pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I haven't studied enough speculative philosophy to begin practical philosophy well.
September 26 at 11:08pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia parting shot, as I go watch TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3yUQFluNq0
Black Flag - TV Party
T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT T.V. PARTY TONIGHT WE'RE...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 26 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg "[A]llow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism." How can these TAC graduates, these renowned scholars of Aristotle and Thomas, assert such claims as the Founding Fathers of America believed in a false God, or that without baptism there is no hope for salvation, or that Mary's material body was not immaculate, but only her soul? Is this false claim anything less than a material heresy? Why are they shocked when someone calls them out on this? They should thank the one pointing out the error.
September 26 at 11:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley Because, Scott, the TACers here are generally being more subtle than your sweeping accusation can countenance.
September 26 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^ no tac grad said that
September 26 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ashman The right to property is a very, very naturaI beIief. Anyone with chiIdren knows this. My 2 year oId's favorite saying was "it's mine!" and when corrected, started with "it's mine....NOW".
September 26 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott you twist words to find heresy. And if that dont work, invent new heresies.
September 26 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "Without baptism, no hope for salvation": who said that? Besides even to not hope is to deny no dogma.
September 26 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley It depends what you mean by "baptism" in "Without baptism, no hope for salvation": if you just mean an infusion of sanctifying grace through some means, that statement is true: if you think someone can get to heaven without grace, you're some kind of Pelagian. If you mean that people who don't receive the ordinary Baptism of water can't get to heaven, then that statement is false.
September 26 at 11:20pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Where is the subtlety in Ruplinger's statement that the Founders God was a different God that the true God? Am I missing something? Is this a nuanced approach to Socratic dialogue, to state something outlandish in order to lead to truth? Please explain!
September 26 at 11:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg tNET 50,000
September 26 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But, in point of fact, no one denied that: the dispute generally involved how to present the necessity of Baptism in an evangelical context.
September 26 at 11:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It depends on what you mean by baptism...? I think what you mean is it depends what you mean by "is."
September 26 at 11:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Wow, that is a very sophisticated and nuanced twist to understanding. Thank you.
September 26 at 11:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley There is a real philosophical/theological question of how to know when two people who claim to believe in God actually believe in the same God.
September 26 at 11:22pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Ah yes, of course there is... so of course Madison and Washington did not believe in the same God as the Catholics. QED. God bless you Ed. Perhaps you can lay out that argument tomorrow.
September 26 at 11:24pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley BTW, were you in DC's chinatown a week or two ago, Scott?
September 26 at 11:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 1) I have no affiliation with TAC
2) I will not debate the nature of the god[s] of the Founder[s?] with an uncredentialed heresy hunter.
September 26 at 11:27pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley "But there are some people, nevertheless—and I am one of them—who think that the most practical and important thing about a man is still his view of the universe. We think that for a landlady considering a lodger, it is important to know his income, but still more important to know his philosophy. We think that for a general about to fight an enemy, it is important to know the enemy's numbers, but still more important to know the enemy's philosophy. We think the question is not whether the theory of the cosmos affects matters, but whether in the long run, anything else affects them. In the fifteenth century men cross-examined and tormented a man because he preached some immoral attitude; in the nineteenth century we feted and flattered Oscar Wilde because he preached such an attitude, and then broke his heart in penal servitude because he carried it out. It may be a question which of the two methods was the more cruel; there can be no kind of question which was the more ludicrous. The age of the Inquisition has not at least the disgrace of having produced a society which made an idol of the very same man for preaching the very same things which it made him a convict for practising."
September 26 at 11:48pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger "[A]llow us to hope" is a permission not a command nor a declaration of a definition for a matter proposed for belief. And none have denied such hope. Your accusation is doubly false. No one said such a thing and it is no heresy outside your own mind. Regarding the Founders, good luck finding a statement from me that does not point out the difficulties in the matter. And are you accusing me of denying Americanism?
September 26 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Edward, do give references. I have no idea where you are quoting from. Academic standards, man, academic standards.
September 27 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell I mean, I realize it's CDK, but where are you getting this?
September 27 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I did give the reference with the first quote: http://www.charlesdekoninck.com/course-notes-on-nietzsche/
September 27 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The other stuff is from Chesterton's "Heretics"
September 27 at 12:48am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Do you really follow DeKoninck's mini-history of philosophy between Aquinas and Luther? I mean this view of the long decline of philosophy from it's high scholastic peak on down is really so 1950's. I find so much vibrancy and life in the 14th and 15th centuries ... fascinating stuff. Of course, most of it wasn't really unearthed until the 1970s and 1980s ... but don't you think that view of the long decline can only be maintained when the knowledge of the 15th-c. philosophy (the Albertists, etc.) is lacking? Also, he's entirely unfair to Luther. Not that I'm surprised by it, but really polemical ... not at all giving a clear picture.
September 27 at 12:52am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I sewed a really cute apron for my daughter tonight. Have a good weekend, tNET.
September 27 at 12:52am · Like · 6
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Edward Langley I don't know, my experience with Scotus is that he seems subtle and argumentative without really being convincing. But I don't really know enough to judge the matter.
September 27 at 12:55am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm sure Noone would disagree, but he seems to equate the complications of 14th and 15th century philosophy with profundity.
September 27 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante CdeK knows nothing about Luther
September 27 at 1:01am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund This is a great book on Luther and philosophy: https://drive.google.com/.../0B1NKBnJwd.../view...
Though it falls for Luther's misunderstanding of eudaimonism.
Aristoteles und Luther by Dieter.pdf - Google Drive
DRIVE.GOOGLE.COM
September 27 at 1:08am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante does it mention alchemy? if it doesnt, then it doesnt understand Luther and philosophy at all
September 27 at 1:09am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but downloading it now to read
September 27 at 1:10am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm kinda curious why you think that "CdeK knows nothing about Luther", Jehoshaphat Escalante. He probably had read Luther and I'm more willing to trust his judgment on the matter given the evidence I have.
September 27 at 1:12am · Like · 1
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Alan Keeler 23456?
September 27 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante because Luther wrote vastly, and not all in a scholastic vein, CdK didnt read him widely or well
September 27 at 1:14am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I know them both well, and C de K definitely doesnt know Luther
September 27 at 1:14am · Like · 2
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Alan Keeler bah. I should have waited another few seconds. This is Claire, by the way.
September 27 at 1:14am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That is still incommunicable evidence.
September 27 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante or authority
September 27 at 1:16am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund No alchemy mention, but when I said "Luther and philosophy" I meant "Luther and Aristotle"
September 27 at 1:19am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahaha ok
September 27 at 1:19am · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Luther's relation to Aristotle was complicated; its hard to tell when he means "the school Aristotle" or "Aristotle himself" when he says "Aristotle". He is often respectful of the latter, never of the former
September 27 at 1:21am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund "I understand Aristotle better than Aquinas and Ockham understood him, and I can prove it" —Luther
September 27 at 1:22am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante in a way I think that might have been true
September 27 at 1:22am · Like
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Pater Edmund Definitely false as far as eudaimonism goes; Luther sees it as selfish.
September 27 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante as did Augustine
September 27 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund ?
September 27 at 1:25am · Like
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Pater Edmund Augustine _was_ a Eudaimonist.
September 27 at 1:25am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Luther has much, much less riding on a reading of Aristotle than Thomas or Ockham do; so it makes him usefully disinterested sometimes. But he's just not much of a commentator on Aristotle at all
September 27 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante not in the Aristotelian sense
September 27 at 1:25am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ahem * pagan virtues christian vices* ahem
September 27 at 1:26am · Like
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Pater Edmund Fair enough, but he understands that seeking happiness ≠ ordering all things to oneself.
September 27 at 1:27am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm always suspicious of that sense of "disinterested," but I see how it could be a good thing.
September 27 at 1:27am · Like
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Edward Langley The obvious counter is that Luther wasn't smart/interested enough to put enough weight on a good reading of Aristotle.
September 27 at 1:30am · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Luther's a eudaimonist too, in a way, except that the fallen person isnt the proper centrum; only in the "maxima persona" (Christ) can you speak of a proper subject of happiness; Christ alone is the "true self", in which one must be by "ecstasy" (Luther's own term for the real incorporation in Christ by faith). So his ethics has a strange topological prolegomenon which must be understood first
September 27 at 1:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Wish that I could remain in the intelligible light of The Neverending Thread, but alas I have to enter the cave and write a talk on Familiaris Consortio. So long.
September 27 at 1:34am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Write it as a series of comments on tNET.
September 27 at 1:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So where are we on the whole question about do we believe in the same God as X discussion.
September 27 at 3:06am · Like
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Edward Langley I think there is a some disagreement and someone who seems to think the answer is self-evident.
September 27 at 3:07am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think nearly everyone agrees that Mormons don't worship the same God as us.
September 27 at 3:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That seems obvious.
September 27 at 3:08am · Like
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Edward Langley There is some debate about Muslims and Unitarians.
September 27 at 3:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is there really a debate about Muslims?
September 27 at 3:08am · Like
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Edward Langley And then a question about Deists like Jefferson and whatever the other Founders (USA not TAC) held
September 27 at 3:09am · Like
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Edward Langley I think Mr. Beitia was arguing that denial of the Trinity was a deal breaker.
September 27 at 3:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think that is fair.
September 27 at 3:09am · Like
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Edward Langley I argued that they would grant something like Aquinas's arguments for the existence of God.
September 27 at 3:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is all we need.
September 27 at 3:10am · Like
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Edward Langley And then people were wondering if Avicenna was a typical Muslim
September 27 at 3:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Essentially, we just need someone to grant that He is one and almighty, and then we know we are talking about the same God.
September 27 at 3:10am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is why Mormons don't count.
September 27 at 3:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is not as though we can set a number of attributes that one has to have right in order to be sure we are talking about the same God.
September 27 at 3:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Heck, I would hold that even Hindus worship God.
September 27 at 3:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Insofar as the hold that there is one God who is the cause of all things.
September 27 at 3:12am · Like
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Edward Langley Although if our concepts change because of what we predicate of them (as, for example, being from Physics -> Metaphysics), one could argue that someone who explicitly denies the Trinity (rather than merely remain agnostic about it) worships a different God.
September 27 at 3:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If someone denies that there is immaterial being, I do not think that his account of being is false, only incomplete.
September 27 at 3:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^BIG difference.
September 27 at 3:14am · Like
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Edward Langley What if they think being is necessarily material?
September 27 at 3:15am · Like
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Edward Langley After all, first operation can err because of the second and third operations.
September 27 at 3:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would say, "I understand why you would say that. It is hard to see that there is immaterial being."
September 27 at 3:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But our account of material being would be the same.
September 27 at 3:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman essentially.
September 27 at 3:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is not as though I would wonder if we were talking about the same thing.
September 27 at 3:17am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley If it was Lawrence Krauss talking about nothing, I would wonder if we were talking about the same thing.
September 27 at 3:24am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
September 27 at 3:24am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah....
September 27 at 3:25am · Like
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Edward Langley Scotus is interesting on the concept of being.
September 27 at 3:26am · Like
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Edward Langley He basically says that being is a concept that is simple in such a way that you can't think of it incorrectly.
September 27 at 3:27am · Like
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Edward Langley But then he goes on to say that no one except the metaphysician ever thinks "being" in second actuality.
September 27 at 3:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman There is something true about that.
September 27 at 3:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Maybe not that part.
September 27 at 3:28am · Like
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Edward Langley However, the concept of being is held in habitual cognition by everyone and somehow drives all concept formation that person does: which explains why, ultimately, every attentive philosopher comes to the same categories.
September 27 at 3:29am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Behind this all is his theory of abstraction: he thinks that when the intellect abstracts, it abstracts all the intelligibility of the thing (since both the agent intellect and the phantasm act as natural agents and natural agents always act to the utmost of their power). However, most of that abstracted intelligibility is just stored in the possible intellect and we only think the most specific species of the sensible that most strongly affects our senses (e.g. whiteness, or the note A, or some such)
September 27 at 3:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Weird.
September 27 at 3:33am · Like
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Edward Langley And the thing is, he's really good at arguing against other people's positions and for his own.
September 27 at 3:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. The little I know and am familiar with Scotus, he was a really smart guy.
September 27 at 3:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Intellectually mal-formed, but smart.
September 27 at 3:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman My guess is he had a very strong power of imagination.
September 27 at 3:36am · Like
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Edward Langley I've always thought something like his notion of habitual cognition has to be behind the way the cogitative power works: somehow the power of the intellect has to be in that power so it can provide appropriate material to be abstracted from.
September 27 at 3:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know Scotus well enough.
September 27 at 3:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have a friend here at the ITI who used to be a follower of Scotus, and knows him quite well.
September 27 at 3:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would like to sit in on a conversation between the two of you.
September 27 at 3:41am · Like
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Edward Langley Basically, "habitual cognition" what he calls all the intelligible forms which are held in the potential intellect but not thought.
September 27 at 3:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I see.
September 27 at 3:41am · Like
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Edward Langley But, for Scotus, they somehow direct thought.
September 27 at 3:42am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And, to me, there seems to be something right about that.
September 27 at 3:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In what way?
September 27 at 3:44am · Like
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Edward Langley It seems to me that, in certain circumstances, the first actuality of the intellect somehow directs human operation.
For one thing, I'm inclined to think that the possible intellect is, in its initial state, in remote potency to most intelligible forms/concepts just as prime matter is to most corporeal forms; This is why the first concepts we form are so vague: vague concepts are the only one's proportional to our intellect's natural potency.
September 27 at 3:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That seems plausible.
September 27 at 3:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I would have to think about it more.
September 27 at 3:50am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see how else to block the argument that the agent intellect is a natural intellect and, as such, always acts to the utmost of its power: the agent intellect can't change, so any limitation on it's power has to come from the passive principle that corresponds to it.
September 27 at 3:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I see the appeal of the position.
September 27 at 3:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman However, it seems one can also attribute the limitation on the agent intellect to its object, namely the phantasm .
September 27 at 3:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Some phantasms can only possess so much intelligibility.
September 27 at 3:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ergo, we can only form a vague concept.
September 27 at 3:55am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know if that's sufficient.
September 27 at 3:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps not.
September 27 at 3:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think what we are saying is contradictory.
September 27 at 3:56am · Like
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Edward Langley For one thing, Aquinas talks about angels being able to illumine phantasms in such a way that we can abstract from them better.
September 27 at 3:56am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman So that would seem to be a strengthening of the agent intellect.
September 27 at 3:57am · Like
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Edward Langley And, thus, the limitation can't be wholly on the side of the possible intellect.
September 27 at 3:57am · Like
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Edward Langley phantasm, that is.
September 27 at 3:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or, we can say that the angel is actually supplying intelligibility to the phantasm itself.
September 27 at 3:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why the object of the illumination is the phantas,
September 27 at 3:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This would seem to be within the power of the angel, since the angel knows the nature of thing directly.
September 27 at 3:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman i.e. without abstraction from the phantasm.
September 27 at 4:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, as I think about it, this position makes more sense to me.
September 27 at 4:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Well, if the angel is strengthening the agent intellect, it would make it more able to impress on the possible intellect as well.
September 27 at 4:01am · Like
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Edward Langley So, it doesn't seem demonstrative to me.
September 27 at 4:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No, i think what I have said can hardly be described as demonstrative.
September 27 at 4:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But now you have given me something to dwell upon and perhaps write about.
September 27 at 4:04am · Like
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Edward Langley Here's some texts:
September 27 at 4:05am · Like
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Edward Langley Albert: Ad id quod ulterius quaeritur, puto sine praejudicio esse dicendum, quod daemon non injicit in animam sui Prophetae species, sed potius de existentibus ibi elicit intellectum novum futurorum. Est enim de speciebus et litteris aliquo modo simile: quia sicut eaedem litterae diversimode combinatae et ordinatae faciunt comoedias et tragoedias: ita etiam eaedem species diversimode ordinatae exprimunt diversa praesentia, praeterita, et futura. Sicut enim dicit Philosophus in II de Somno et vigilia: Sensibus ligatis per somnum, efficitur intellectus agens potens ut extrahat de phantasmatibus quaedam signa futurorum, in quibus accipiuntur praenosticationes: ita dici potest, quod applicatio luminis naturalis quo viget intellectus daemonis ad lumen intellectus Prophetae falsi, elicit quaedam quae ostendunt futura, et aliquando vera, et aliquando falsa, semper autem cum intentione fallendi: et hoc modo est inspiratio falsi Prophetae. (In II Sentent. Dis. VII. E, Art. 3. ed. Borgnet)
September 27 at 4:05am · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas: Ea vero quae ipsi Daemones praecognoscunt, revelare possunt, non quidem obji- ciendo se animae sicut in speculum, in quo videntur quae in speculo relucent, ut quidam dicunt: quia anima humana, ad minus secundum statum viae, non videt ea quae sunt a materia separata, nisi quatenus ex phantasmatibus in eorum cognitionem venit. Nec iterum species quae sunt in intellectu angelico, sunt proportionatae intellectui humano, cum multo simpliciores sint, et universaliores. Unde sicut species quae sunt in intellectu imaginatio non potest comprehendere, nec sensus species quae sunt in imaginatione; ita nec intellectus humanus, secundum statum viae, species quae sunt in intellectu angelico. Sed Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae cognoscit, revelare potest, scilicet per appli- cationem luminis sui ad phantasmata, sicut applicatur lumen intellectus agentis, ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu eliciantur; et quanto lumen fuerit fortius et perfectius, tanto plures et certiores cognitiones elicientur. Et ideo ex phantasmatibus illustratis lumi- ne angelico resultat aliquorum cognitio in intellectu possibili hominis, ad quam eliciendam illustratio intellectus agentis humani non sufficeret, cum lumen ejus sit debilius lumine Angeli. (Super Sent., lib. 2 d. 7 q. 2 a. 2 co.)
September 27 at 4:05am · Like
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Edward Langley (notice, comments on the same texts)
September 27 at 4:06am · Like
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Edward Langley Also notice in Aquinas: "Sed Angelus bonus vel malus aliter ea quae cognoscit, revelare potest, scilicet per appli- cationem luminis sui ad phantasmata, sicut applicatur lumen intellectus agentis, ut ex eis quaedam intentiones in intellectu eliciantur"
September 27 at 4:06am · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas: "Ad sextum dicendum, quod mali Angeli cogitationes immittunt illustrando phanta- smata... Non tamen intellectus cogitur eas accipere: quia praeter objectum et potentiam cognoscentem, exigitur ad actualem cognitionem intentio cognoscentis vel per sensum vel per intellectum... Sed boni Angeli etiam directe in intellectum imprimere possunt: quia, secundum Augustinum, operantur in intelligentias nostras miris quibusdam modis. Hoc autem est inquantum lumen intellectus agentis nostri confortatur per intellectuale lumen ipsorum. Sed hoc daemonibus non competit: quia quamvis naturale lumen eorum sit effi- cacius quam lumen intellectus nostri, tamen lumine gratiae non sunt perfecti, sed tenebris culpae obumbrati; et ideo non intendunt judicium rationis nostrae rectificare per confor- mationem intellectualis luminis, sed aliqua nobis ostendere ex quibus decipiamur, quod faciunt phantasmata illustrando. (Super Sent., lib. 2 d. 8 q. 1 a. 5 ad 6)"
September 27 at 4:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "luminis sui ad phantasmata" would seem to support the position that the agent intellect is not being strengthened, but its object is being made more intelligible.
September 27 at 4:08am · Like
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Edward Langley But the angel is working "sicut lumen intellectus agentis" which seems to mean that there is more intelligibility in the phantasms than our own intellect can access.
September 27 at 4:09am · Like
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Edward Langley (since our agent intellects don't provide intelligible content but only intelligibility)
September 27 at 4:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah...
September 27 at 4:10am · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas: Angelus vero, quia naturaliter habet lumen intellectuale perfectius quam homo, ex utraque parte potest homini esse causa sciendi; tamen inferiori modo quam Deus, et superiori quam homo. Ex parte enim luminis, quamvis non possit intellectuale lumen in- fundere, ut Deus facit, potest tamen lumen infusum confortare ad perfectius inspiciendum. Omne enim quod est in aliquo genere imperfectum, quando continuatur perfectiori in ge- nere illo, magis confortatur virtus eius; sicut etiam videmus in corporibus, quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus locans, quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad potentiam, ut habetur IV Physic. (Quaestiones de Veritate Q. 11, a. 3, co.)
September 27 at 4:11am · Like
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Edward Langley (what's missing in that quote, I think, is him saying that the angel can form phantasms by acting on the body)
September 27 at 4:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But doesn't the angel, by illuminating the phantasm simply supply intelligibility about the thing that it knows better and in a higher way.
September 27 at 4:14am · Like
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Edward Langley I think what it does is, by strengthening the agent intellect, make the phantasm more abstract material to be abstracted from.
September 27 at 4:15am · Like
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Edward Langley That's what the QDV seems to indicate.
September 27 at 4:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Insofar as the phantasm falls away from the thing itself, it must be deficient in intelligibility. The angel can illumine the phantasm by making the falling away of the phantasm less.
September 27 at 4:15am · Like
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Edward Langley That kind of help, though, doesn't seem to be "ex parte luminis".
September 27 at 4:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Why not?
September 27 at 4:17am · Like
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Edward Langley Right? A stronger light makes the colors more visible but doesn't change them.
September 27 at 4:17am · Like
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Edward Langley (at least, ideally)
September 27 at 4:18am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But angels do not just have a stronger light. They have a more perfect light
September 27 at 4:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is more life a full spectrum light compared to a black light
September 27 at 4:19am · Like
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Edward Langley But, in this text, the angelic light works though our own light.
September 27 at 4:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I admit it does seem like that.
September 27 at 4:23am · Like
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Edward Langley I wish I understood this analogy better: "sicut etiam videmus in corporibus, quod corpus locatum confortatur per corpus locans, quod comparatur ad ipsum ut actus ad potentiam, ut habetur IV Physic."
September 27 at 4:23am · Like
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Edward Langley I suppose it's just saying that bodies are preserved by remaining in their natural place.
September 27 at 4:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, that is what I am thinking about too.
September 27 at 4:24am · Like
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Edward Langley I collected a bunch of texts by Albert and Thomas on the illumination of the phantasms in order to compare their views of abstraction for a paper.
September 27 at 4:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was wondering how these quotes came so quickly.
September 27 at 4:26am · Like
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Edward Langley The paper was marred because I wrote it for a historicist professor.
September 27 at 4:26am · Like
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Edward Langley So, I stayed away from making actual philosophical judgments.
September 27 at 4:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Meh.
September 27 at 4:27am · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig ^ I feel your pain
September 27 at 4:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Could you send me the paper?
September 27 at 4:27am · Like
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Edward Langley But it was the easiest 12 pages I ever wrote.
September 27 at 4:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I would like the paper if only for the references.
September 27 at 4:27am · Like
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Edward Langley This is where I got Albert: http://albertusmagnus.uwaterloo.ca/
Alberti Magni e-corpus
Albertus Magnus (ca. 1200 – 1280) is one of the most important medieval philosophers and theologians, and...
ALBERTUSMAGNUS.UWATERLOO.CA
September 27 at 4:41am · Like · Remove Preview
Daniel Lendman By the way, Edward, have you run the stats on TNET recently?
September 27 at 4:46am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I will, have to get some sleep first.
September 27 at 4:46am · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley "Normal Songs" i.e. Songs Against Modernity. If you know any, add them to the list. Help me TNET, you're my only hope.
https://www.facebook.com/richardnutley/posts/10100100596990307
September 27 at 5:47am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Please block Scott.
September 27 at 6:22am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Joshua Kenz, thanks for your thoughts the other night. I'm sorry I was not around to respond. I will check out Craycraft.
September 27 at 7:50am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Pater Edmund, when did you visit Chicago as a child? I was there from 1978 to 1986. It seems like there was a brutal heatwave every summer . . .
September 27 at 7:53am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Oh, it would have been in the early 90s.
September 27 at 7:57am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I guess it was not I then. It occurs to me that it was probably my older brother, Doug, who still lives in Chicago.
September 27 at 8:02am · Like
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Pater Edmund That might be. Is he a lawyer?
September 27 at 8:03am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes.
September 27 at 8:03am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I suspect your father and my brother are friends and that is why you sought shelter there during the heatwave.
September 27 at 8:06am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund That's probably right. Is your sister-in-law an art historian or something like that?
September 27 at 8:07am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Small world, eh?
September 27 at 8:08am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund A little while ago I sat next to someone at a concert in Vienna who happened to be a former student of Dr. McArthur's at St Mary's. He said there are probably only a few hundred people in the world, the rest being merely painted on. I suspect he is right.
September 27 at 8:10am · Edited · Like · 7
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Jeffrey Bond I guess they call that CGI today. . .
September 27 at 8:13am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Another beautiful connection brought to us by TNET.
September 27 at 8:16am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^ interesting premise for a sci-fi story
September 27 at 9:30am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Plot: Spaceman discovers his earth brother gave refuge to a lost child suffering from heatstroke in the 1990s due to global warming. The child, once grown, reveals to Spaceman through TNET that most humans are CGI only, and together they set out to expose a plot against humanity traced back to James Madison.
September 27 at 9:44am · Like · 8
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Samantha Cohoe We played a fun game last night at craft night. It was "guess everybody's Myers-briggs personality type."
September 27 at 9:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Let's do that here.
September 27 at 9:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know Myers-Briggs is pseudo-science and everything. But still fun.
September 27 at 9:59am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ok. To begin with. Everyone here is an "N"
September 27 at 9:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Literally every person
September 27 at 10:00am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe even though 'N's supposedly make up about 35% of the population
September 27 at 10:00am · Like
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Jeff Neill lol
September 27 at 10:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill entj
September 27 at 10:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff!! Me too! High five!
September 27 at 10:03am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We're probably also mostly "T"s
September 27 at 10:03am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF-- INTP?
September 27 at 10:04am · Like
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Joel HF Also a heavily "t" bunch.
September 27 at 10:06am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Uh, int something.
September 27 at 10:07am · Like
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Pater Edmund Instead of finishing my Familiaris Consortio talk I have been looking through Jstor and Google books for stuff on medieval literacy. Fascinating stuff.
September 27 at 10:08am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I have no idea, I've never taken one of those tests.
September 27 at 10:08am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine Joliat Feil-- do you know?
September 27 at 10:08am · Like
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Pater Edmund I likewise have no idea what Myers-Briggs thing I am.
September 27 at 10:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What did you find out, Pater?
September 27 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund is an INTP also, would be my guess
September 27 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I had to take this test this week for work, so I'm fresh
September 27 at 10:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Introvert vs. Extrovert is a bit hard to tell on tNET, this being the internet and everything
September 27 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe J is "Judging," basically, do you have your sh*t together? Or does Catherine Joliat Feil keep it together for you? if the later, you're a "P" perceiver
September 27 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, probably everybody her is an "NT" and the maybe mostly Introverts, too
September 27 at 10:13am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I always get ENTP or something else - I forget which one - but only one letter changes.
September 27 at 10:15am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson-- I was going to guess ENTP for you. I am so good at this.
September 27 at 10:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My guess for Michael Beitia is also ENTP
September 27 at 10:16am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll take a test later.... but from the wiki, I think there's a J in there somewhere
September 27 at 10:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel Lendman, though, might be an ENFP
September 27 at 10:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe OK, revised guess is ENTJ
September 27 at 10:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, scratch that, Daniel Lendman is an ENFJ
September 27 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But maybe close on the Feeling vs. Thinking, like me.
September 27 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Seems like everyone is off having a more fun Saturday morning than I am.
September 27 at 10:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak is also an ENTP, I would guess
September 27 at 10:21am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have to take my kids to soccer.
September 27 at 10:21am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ugh, so do I but not for an hour
September 27 at 10:21am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe soccer is the worst
September 27 at 10:21am · Like · 3
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John Boyer I have to move furniture in 30 minutes. Then I have to tutor three students on papers which are due in three days and I guarantee they just started them. Hope you feel better about your day, Samantha.
September 27 at 10:24am · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Oh, then "p" for sure.
September 27 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Soccer seems like the worst today now that Everton have got a last minute equalizer in the Merseyside Derby https://twitter.com/natefc/status/515857812279148547
oh you beauty on Twitter: "FT 1-1. that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly something...
FT 1-1. that is some unbelievable bullshit and is exactly something that would happen in 2009-10 and I really hate this season so far
TWITTER.COM|BY OH YOU BEAUTY
September 27 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I'm grading English 211 papers. Everyone in the world is having more fun than I am.
September 27 at 10:29am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund So, what I found out about medieval literacy: there has been a lot of challenging of the received wisdom recently, partly due to Noone's point about "literatus" meaning someone who could read read and write Latin well.
September 27 at 10:29am · Unlike · 2
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Pater Edmund There is a lot of variation over the centuries, and a lot of disagreement about what the evidence means.
September 27 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund But a lot of people, even peasants, knew a little Latin, and could read a little without being able to write.
September 27 at 10:31am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Interestingly in England, you had a lot of vernacular literature before the Norman conquest (Alfred the Great's New Testament trans. etc., and then after almost everything is Latin.
September 27 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Here's one of the more interesting pieces: http://books.google.at/books?id=Rv_QzOML3U0C&lpg=PA9...
Literacy and Historical Development
BOOKS.GOOGLE.AT
September 27 at 10:42am · Like
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Pater Edmund More on soccer today: "If you don't laugh, you're gonna cry and maybe explode and maybe go on a murderous rampage, so I recommend laughing." http://ohyoubeauty.blogspot.co.at/.../liverpool-1-1...
oh you beauty: Liverpool 1-1 Everton
OHYOUBEAUTY.BLOGSPOT.COM
September 27 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Samantha, Saturday mornings are for sleeping. Everyone knows this. Now I'm starting up slowly with some coffee and TNET, which has led me to read up on Myers-Briggs tests.
September 27 at 10:49am · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sean, spoken like a non-parent
September 27 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Haha, yes, I realized after I wrote that that it sounds like bragging.
September 27 at 10:50am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Not intended!
September 27 at 10:50am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I read a chapter of that Literacy and Historical Development book just now, Pater Edmund
September 27 at 10:54am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It seems like the "knowing a little Latin" just means knowing the Pater Noster and the Credo
September 27 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson So from a quick wiki read, I am INTsomething. I think INTP, but the P/J distinction was not very clear to me.
September 27 at 11:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia I just got back from dropping four kids off at swim lessons, and eating a donut with the fifth.
September 27 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sean-- do you like to be spontaneous? Are you one of those terrible late-all-the-time people? Do you hate planning? Then you might be a "P"
September 27 at 11:05am · Like
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Sean Robertson Definitely a J, in that case.
September 27 at 11:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If, on the other hand, you function well in the world, have a rational approach to organizing your life, and like to know what to expect, then you are probably a "J"
September 27 at 11:06am · Like
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Michael Beitia ENFJ according to the test I just took
September 27 at 11:06am · Like
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Sean Robertson Yeah, definitely INTJ.
September 27 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the above explanation might be colored a bit by my extreme pro-"J" preference
September 27 at 11:07am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe an F, eh Michael? Interesting.
September 27 at 11:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia ENFJ on the second one.
Extravert(67%) iNtuitive(25%) Feeling(12%) Judging(11%)
You have distinct preference of Extraversion over Introversion (67%)
You have moderate preference of Intuition over Sensing (25%)
You have slight preference of Feeling over Thinking (12%)
You have slight preference of Judging over Perceiving (11%)
September 27 at 11:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just took a test, Samantha, and this was the result:
Extravert(33%) iNtuitive(50%) Feeling(38%) Judging(22%)
September 27 at 11:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe YES!! I knew it!!
September 27 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, don't you feel known?
September 27 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Not really...
September 27 at 11:14am · Like
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Michael Beitia I like Walker Percy's "Lost in the Cosmos"
September 27 at 11:14am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe And, I got Michael wrong, but I don't actually know him.
September 27 at 11:14am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I mean, yes. But in another way, not so much.
September 27 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can anyone know anyone else?
September 27 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Not until he knows himself.
September 27 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Have you read "Lost..." by Percy? the cultural references are dated, but it is an interesting book nonetheless
September 27 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's reductive pseudo-science, but I definitely think it's measuring *something* legit
September 27 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I prefer the temperaments as a model, better. 4 basic temperaments, with various combinations. Indefinite personality possibilities.
September 27 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I am INTJ: no test needed. #INTJselfgnosis
September 27 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia oooh I just found out I'm sanguine! these personality tests certainly tell a lot....
September 27 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Samantha = JJJJ.
September 27 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson INTJ
Introvert(100%) iNtuitive(38%) Thinking(62%) Judging(67%)
September 27 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I could kill a few minutes screwing around with these
September 27 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Temperamentally speaking I am Choleric/Melancholic.
September 27 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Even though in this case it might not be a good thing, I still feel good for scoring 100% on part of that test.
September 27 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Wow strong scores. Probably not the person that would high five a comets stranger.
September 27 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Which test did you take for the percentages?
September 27 at 11:24am · Like
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Sean Robertson http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp
Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers type theory
Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers...
HUMANMETRICS.COM
September 27 at 11:25am · Like
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Sean Robertson It was just the first one that came up on Google.
September 27 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia time to pick up the kids from swimming....
September 27 at 11:26am · Like
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John Ruplinger is melancholic choleric. . . . but the point of knowing one's temperament is to strive to become even tempered. Why Briggs Myers = Jungian self affirmative fail
September 27 at 11:31am · Edited · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I dislike the temperaments. I get a different answer every time I take it, depending on my mood, or how drunk I am, or what I've had to do in my life in order to get by. I'm a melancholic choleric phlegmatic sanguine, and there you have it.
September 27 at 11:37am · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Astrology, however, is fun.
September 27 at 11:37am · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss John - if that's the point, why then, I have succeeded. Hooray! Self-affirmation for me!
September 27 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Extravert(89%) iNtuitive(88%) Thinking(75%) Judging(56%)
I don't think it is to strive to be even tempered, just how to relate to others.
September 27 at 11:41am · Like
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John Ruplinger should say Briggs ends with diagnosis: embrace yourself and your intjness. And you're an INTJ in denial, Rebecca.
September 27 at 11:44am · Like
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Nina Rachele now everybody do the enneagram one because I'm curious...
September 27 at 11:51am · Like
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John Ruplinger no. In the secret radtrad tradition temperaments were used as a means to aid in spiritual direction. And even temperment was word of praise. Good stuff. All i am saying. @Jeff.
September 27 at 11:53am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia enneagram?
September 27 at 11:52am · Like
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Nina Rachele there are nine types, everyone has a type for the way they relate to themselves, the world, and how they actually think. here's a short quiz http://www.enneagramquiz.com/quiz.html
Comprehensive Enneagram Quiz
This quiz takes approximately 3 or 4 minutes to complete. Remember, the test can only be as accurate as the...
ENNEAGRAMQUIZ.COM
September 27 at 11:53am · Like
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Nina Rachele not sure I explained it very well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritype The other enneagram theory is that you are a type that leans towards one or the other of the neighboring types. So, I am a six wing five, for example.
Tritype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term Tritype refers to a theory regarding the Enneagram of Personality and was coined by Enneagram researcher and coach Katherine Chernick Fauvre[1] and later developed further in association with David W. Fauvre. The word tritype was formed from Latin, with the prefix tri meaning three,[2] and…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 27 at 11:56am · Like
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John Ruplinger enneagrams = geometric spirituality on wings. Probably started when desert monks found those manna 'shrooms Peterson mentioned a thread age ago.
September 27 at 12:01pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia okay..... 8w7 6w5 2w1
September 27 at 12:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ #shroommathgnosis
September 27 at 12:04pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I've never heard anyone who likes the four temperaments refer to themselves as anything but choleric, melancholic or combination of the two. Usually those who fancy themselves melancholic love it.
September 27 at 12:05pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson Depending on how I take the M-Bs it flips one letter, which seems realistic. But still a bit asinine.
And don't get me started on the whole extrovert/ introvert thing
September 27 at 12:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger but phlegmatics \ sanguine are not interested by temperament. . . . . . and melancholic (\ cholerics) make the tests. . . .
September 27 at 12:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . . and rule the world or try to. To be precise, cholerics conquer the world, melancholics talk about it or brood.
September 27 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple It'd be much cooler if sanguine were said as a temperament with it's other meaning. Charles Bronson would be the mascot.
September 27 at 12:12pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Cholerics praise and imitate Madison. Melancholics criticize idols.
September 27 at 12:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So I have myself completely circumscribed:
Sanguine/choleric
ENFJ
8w7 6w5 2w1
put all those personality tests together and you get: big jerk
September 27 at 12:33pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman That means you and I are basically the same Michael... but that can't be right.
September 27 at 12:23pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Michael Beitia / Daniel Lendman - but then - we knew that already.
September 27 at 12:23pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia that' we're both big jerks? at least I'm a sanguine happy go lucky big jerk
September 27 at 12:33pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund So, Samantha I took the test, and was slightly impressed to see that you guessed right: INTP.
September 27 at 12:40pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund But the test that The Neverending Thread should really be taking is this: http://uquiz.com/jyoHiC
Which Early Christian Heresy Are You?
"Catholic theology followed a fairly well defined direction. Its path was not from the outset as broad and straight,...
UQUIZ.COM
September 27 at 12:41pm · Unlike · 8
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Daniel Lendman I am dogmatically, empathetic, angry, jerk.
September 27 at 12:47pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger . . . . . shouldn't that be updated, Pater? to which Council Father?
September 27 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Pater Edmund, that quiz must have been designed by Salvador Dali.
Anyways, I'm Monophysitism
September 27 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Pater Edmund:
I said:
"The high Middle Ages failed. Centuries of fighting for power against the oppressive state led to coveting state power. This led to the abominable corruption of the Church, replete with wicked Popes, and this led to the reformation and the "enlightenment"."
You said: "Can we at least admit that this is a highly simplistic and contentious interpretation of the High Middle Ages?"
1) Well, I suppose the so-called "Reformation" just up and happened out of the blue? Bad reformation. Bad enlightenment. The Other just up and came out of nowhere. Not the Church's fault at all? Heh. Whatever floats our prejudices. But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period was, and I freely admit that the history is up for grabs. But that works both ways. Let's not pretend like those arguing it was good don't paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda does.
2) But what I find even more interesting about your response is this: you don't want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior cause. Fair enough. But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to "Modernity" and American history.
September 27 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ed Langley, we were discussing earlier the metaphor and whether it could be a demonstration. I wanted to point you to Book 3 of Aristotle's Rhetoric where he says the metaphor is a rhetorical demonstration of the greatest clarity. Now an enthymeme is a demonstration; and a metaphor is an enthymeme of the greatest clarity. I also wanted to give you a few examples. You may recall President Reagan's famous demonstrative metaphor: "America is a city on a hill"; the demonstration being that a city on a hill is eminently worthy of defense, America is a city on a hill, therefore America is eminently worth defending. Another example is that "a good education is water in the desert"; the demonstration is that water in the desert is rare and valuable; education is water in the desert, therefore education is valuable. Another example of a persuasive and demonstrative metaphor is that "a man who must always be right is like a child carrying a loaded weapon."
September 27 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Scott, a "rhetorical demonstration" is equivocal with the sense of demonstration that was under question at the time.
September 27 at 1:14pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Mr. John Ruplinger. We were talking earlier about whether George Washington and the Founding Fathers believed in the same God as we do. It seems to me quite clear that we do, and that this question is one which seems strange to ask. Here is the famous prayer of George Washington, I wanted to present to you:
"Almighty God, and most merciful father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise thee for thy protection both night and day, receive, O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to thee; I yield thee humble and hearty thanks that thou has preserved me from the danger of the night past, and brought me to the light of the day, and the comforts thereof, a day which is consecrated ot thine own service and for thine own honor. Let my heart, therefore, Gracious God, be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works, but wait on thee, and discharge those weighty duties thou requirest of me, and since thou art a God of pure eyes, and wilt be sanctified in all who draw near unto thee, who doest not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in thy courts, pardon, I beseech thee, my sins, remove them from thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass thine altar, my prayers may come before thee as incense; and as thou wouldst hear me calling upon thee in my prayers, so give me grace to hear thee calling on me in thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of the soul in the day of the Lord Jesus. Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me, Gracious God, the good work for which thou has sent it. Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God & guide this day and for ever for his sake, who ay down in the Grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."
September 27 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Man, that soccer took a lot out of me.
September 27 at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I believe you had stated that an enthymeme was a kind of demonstration in no equivocal sense. The examples I provide immediately above, as well as book 3 of Artistotle's Rhetoric, also seem to support the idea that a metaphor when used as an enthymeme, is a very clear kind of demonstration.
September 27 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm more inclined to think well of George Washington than of most of the other founders: for one thing, he's one of the few historical figures that refused power offered to him (being made a king) and willingly giving up the power he did get (setting the precedent for two term presidency: a precedent that lasted as a tradition without legal force until FDR).
September 27 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think I got Pelagianism, but that was embarrassing to me, so let me take it again
September 27 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe to question 1, definitely b) defend myself with a flame thrower
September 27 at 1:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Whatever I had said about enthymeme before, I don't think either enthymeme or metaphor have the kind of necessity required for knowledge, in the strict sense.
September 27 at 1:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Agree.
September 27 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley The important question, Samantha, is the one about the Montpelier codex.
September 27 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond:
"Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that 'divide and conquer' has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people."
Well, that's a method that any leader uses who wants to win, and it is not intrinsically evil in any way, shape, or form.
"In Federalist 51, Madison employs this principle with a vengeance: 'This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to DIVIDE and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other--that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights.'"
This is, to me, common sense. And virtually any government that lasts more than 5 minutes employs such logic. Any government. In a school, in a family, and elsewhere, one ties pride, honor, and self-interest to institutions and functions in order to bring about the public good and order self-interest towards something greater.
But as to the division here - the separation of powers among the three branches - this for the founding generation is not arbitrary. As I tell my classes, they do not view "POWER" as a block of ice to be chopped up and divided for the sake of mere checks for checks sake. The three branches represent three very different KINDS of power. It is a very different thing to be a judge than a representative, and another thing entirely to be an executive official, etc. So this division has a basis in reality given the nature of governmental power. But yet, one does tie the interest of a participant in each branch to the branch in question. That's common sense.
This is why, when old Senator Byrd was asked what it was like to serve under so many presidents, he looked askance at Charlie Rose, and said "Served WITH." That's healthy for the Republic, and any form of government. The best Monarchies employed much the same principle, in which different kinds of authority and power were given their due.
If you do want to just depend on the virtue and love of the common good simply, society would fall apart. The very idea is absurd. This isn't how virtue is attained. This is giving everyone the ring of gyges. If you want to build up virtue, you hold people accountable and let them know they will be held accountable. You use their native sense of shame. You don't create occasions of sin. A teacher in a classroom will take steps to prevent teaching. A parent will take steps to prevent abuse of the internet. You don't simply depend on virtue. In fact, you assist virtue by taking these measures.
But what the remarks above miss is the very thrust of the Constitution, which is to create a unitary government over the rest that UNIFIES the nation and that very much does depend ultimately on the virtue of the people and the fact that the Federalists think they will attain more virtuous leaders in the federal government.
In fact, the Anti-Federalists didn't like this dependence on virtue and love of the common good. It made them nervous. And thus Madison is calming them down with his argument about how the federal goverment will help steer clear of what they fear.
September 27 at 1:23pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Proust is overrated
September 27 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond:
"Since the legislative authority necessarily predominates in a republican government, the remedy is to DIVIDE it into different branches."
Yes, and if you read any Federalists, including Madison and Hamilton, as to WHY this is a good thing you would discover arguments that, again, speak of different kinds of power qualitatively and how bicameralism assists deliberation and promotes the public good and protects minority rights.
This is a commonplace at the time. You needed a more aristocratic Senate to slow things down, and the Federalist Papers and scads of other writings at the time give plenty of real examples of how two legislative bodies with different characters will lead to better deliberation over what is truly good and mitigate against "might is right" democratic majoritarianism.
So the "division" is for the sake of unity, and for the sake of deliberation over what truly ought to be done.
September 27 at 1:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Indeed, Madison seems to use this tactic to protect the federal government against faction, AND to protect individual freedoms. It is just a tactic in his noble strategy.
September 27 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe AGH Pelagianism again!
September 27 at 1:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, why were you only slightly impressed?
September 27 at 1:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I sing of TNET, and a man of threads...
September 27 at 1:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It seems without division, there is no balance of powers. One focal point would become too heavy and tip the scales always in the direction of its own interests.
September 27 at 1:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond:
<<"As for the government as a whole: "In the compound republic of America, the power surrendered by the people is first DIVIDED between two distinct governments, and then the portion allotted to each subDIVIDED among distinct and separate departments." Finally, society itself "will be BROKEN into so many parts, interests and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority." The problem here is not so much the fact that a government would have different branches or centers of authority. Many governments long before the American experiment had similar divisions. The problem is Madison's willingness to so thoroughly embrace division as a principle in the absence of any apparent concern for "better motives." As he famously wrote, "Ambition must be made to counter ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place." This spirit of division and contention is so thoroughly embraced that it breeds and gives license to a people and statesmen who are indifferent to virtue and self-restraint. After all, one serves the "general good" when one acts ambitiously, or so we are taught. Every American schoolboy from time immemorial as been taught to sing the praises of the saving graces of "checks and balances," as if the system alone were sufficient to replace the need for virtue.>>
This is simply false. This hollow checks and balances interpretation that Bond speaks of really comes from the 1950s, and the materialist vaguely Marxist approach of Beard before the Straussians and friends started interpreting the founding in terms of the defects of post-WWII America.
Schoolboys were NOT taught this. The founding generation did NOT teach this. People centuries later grabbed Madison and other's AUXILIARY PRECAUTIONS that amount to common sense and took them as a political treatise. No major founder thought this. The best you can do is uncharitably read two texts, two stones from the mountain ranges of documents from the time to wring this out of the founding era.
This spirit of division is not our problem. That we are divided on the highest things, and the deepest things, that is a problem. But it is NOT caused by what has allowed our government to last, in part: the separation of powers, or our three branches, or the fact that those within those branches tie their self-interest to the respective branch to which they belong and the job they happen to embrace.
September 27 at 1:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, it seems to me the reason metaphorical and rhetorical demonstrations do not have the kind of necessity for knowledge in the strict sense is because they deal with topics that are not scientific in a strict sense. They are, however, reasonable, according to Aristotle in Book 3, and require a speaker who in logical and moral and aware of the emotions of his audience. These other demonstrations -- enthymeme and metaphor -- deal with the will and imagination, respectively. Whereas the syllogism is a form of reason in the strict sense and the intellect. All three are similar in form, as they are also formally similar to the rational soul.
September 27 at 1:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond
<<In Choruses from the Rock, T.S. Eliot had this to say about men like Madison and his Enlightenment friends.
They constantly try to escape
From the darkness outside and within
By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.
But the man that is shall shadow
The man that pretends to be.
This profound poetic insight brings us to the heart of the Enlightenment project and the Madisonian proposal to turn away from virtue to embrace a system that seizes on ambition and harnesses it to achieve the so-called "common good.">>>
Again, the fact one builds in auxiliary precautions is just common sense. The fact one harnesses ambition doesn't prove that one has abandoned virtue or the common good, and a century post-Madison of American culture and history reveals that virtue and religion were NOT so abandoned.
<<I therefore do not find persuasive Matthew J. Peterson's argument that Madison's proposal is made on behalf of justice and the common good simply because he employs these terms. Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices.>>
This is illogical. You do want to write off the plain language of Madison and friends. But in this you are remarkably Straussian, no? If you want to prove the esoteric meaning of these words, you must bring a bit more to the table.
The passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with justice. In fact, one cannot make sense of it if that is the case. The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice - it proves MY point. What he means is that we treasure justice so much, that we will give up liberty and self-government in the pursuit of it. He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and INJUSTICE, which is what he specifically complains of in the states, repeatedly.
If things continue this way, and radically unstable democratic majorities continue to act unjustly, not rendering people their due (and Madison can give you specific examples), then Madison fears that people will elect tyrants to keep the peace, as western political philosophy warns of.
<<And so we are left with Eliot's question:
What life have you, if you have not life together?
There is not life that is not in community,>>
So the Federalists sought the unity that would come with a stronger federal government. Out of many, one. But no sane person thought that bond could entail a religious unity leading to the last, best, and highest end of man. First, because the size and extent of the government would make that tricky. But most obviously because of their disagreements about such. Yet there are still many a facet of the common good that the federal government could help achieve.
And, of course, even today it does indeed legislate about morality (drugs, abortion, marriage, discrimination against minorities, etc.)
September 27 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Scott, I am discussing the very thing on another thread. We've only touched some of the difficulties and seem close to an impass. I decline to "discuss" it with you. I am glad to see you show how metaphor can be used as enthymeme.
September 27 at 1:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: "What is the point of reading the Federalists, Matthew J. Peterson? Historical curiosity? Getting to the true meaning of the constitution? Political philosophy?"
You sound so modern. Heh. Of course, so does Jeffrey.
I think the Federalist Papers still reveal the working principles of the regime, even with all the changes - and they reveal some principles that worked even if things have changed.
In the main, however, they correct false understandings of where we have been, and therefore how we came to where we are, and therefore help inform what ought to be done.
September 27 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeffrey Bond:
I said: "First off, if you hold that government can get rid of the latent causes of faction, methinks you should read some of that olde time Christian religion, and the words of Jesus Christ in the gospels, all of which suggest that something beyond human wrought laws is needed."
You say
<<I do not recall anyone saying that government can simply get rid of faction. But a few of us have faulted Madison for turning away from the traditional political art, the business of which is the care of souls, which art would require a statesman to concern himself with the causes of faction. That Madison rejected this ancient ideal is, I think, undeniable since in Federalist 10 Madison explicitly rejects dealing with causes of faction. (If Madison speaks or acts contrary to this principle elsewhere, that is another matter that I cannot address here at the moment.)>>
Yes, Madison doesn't mean that there is NO way in which one can deal with the causes of faction. That is evident from his life and other writings. But he does appear to mean something like "you can't ultimately get rid of the causes of faction by means of a federal government or any government." And that just seems true, if we take Christianity seriously.
If you bother to expand outwards of your Straussian inherited Fed 10/51 myopia, you would see that the VERY POINT OF ESTABLISHING THE CONSTITUTION is to eradicate the causes of faction by erecting a strong central government that takes power over commerce OUT of state/radically democratic majority might makes right hands and puts it into a popular form that has more aristocratic elements. And to make all the states one. Out of many one. A UNION.
Again, all that is happening in 10 is a response to Brutus re large and small republic. But I've already driven down this road a few times.
September 27 at 1:50pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson: I wrote: "Returning to the problem of embracing division as a principle, which the Athenian Stranger so beautifully unfolds, it is worth noting that 'divide and conquer' has always been the preferred method of tyrants for atomizing a people."
Your wrote in response: "Well, that's a method that any leader uses who wants to win, and it is not intrinsically evil in any way, shape, or form."
We certainly differ on this point, and perhaps here we are getting to the heart of our disagreement. I do not view leadership as winning, nor could I ever endorse "divide and conquer" as a principle. This is precisely what the Athenian Stranger finds in error at the root of the Spartan and Cretan regimes. Politics is not about winning. Politics is about unifying souls (individually and collectively) since the good of each depends on the good of all. Our happiness, because we are political by nature, requires an art that aims at the common good, and that art cannot start with the principle of divine and conquer and still be the political art. That is power politics and assumes the good of the leader (as he sees it) is to be gained at the expense of those ruled. I doubt you really endorse such ideas, but what you have written above is hard to interpret in any other way.
September 27 at 1:56pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^ you just disagree with Jeffrey over what those principles are [several up already now that blows fall fast if not furious]. Moreover while criticizing Bond's myopia, you to focus on 10 and 51 as do most all teachers and students of the founding. I am not addressing any argument Matthew. Just pointing out that some of your strokes fall upon your own head as well.
September 27 at 2:02pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But just in case, one. more. time.
Brutus the Anti-Federalist says the federal government will be too big. The question is large versus small republic.
Madison doesn't CREATE faction with the constitution. He doesn't DEPEND on it. He makes the point that the problem they face is MIGHT MAKES RIGHT majorities violating minority rights and contravening the common good of all. But, he says, a large republic will actually help prevent a BAD majority from forming. Of course, the majority will still rule. But with more interests, bad and good, these small factions will fight and much will be revealed. It will be harder for a bad majority to form or to implement its sinister designs once formed.
But the overarching argument is simply whether you have an overarching federal government or not. In small or large republic, you have faction. That's a fact of life. For Madison and the Federalists, the smaller and "more pure" democracies were full of might makes right majorities that couldn't be stopped. They hope that a federal government with better legislators and aristocratic elements, as well as an extending of the sphere, will help prevent the fatal flaw of government by the many.
September 27 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Um, when you think what you want is the common good, and other side doesn't want this, you want to win. Yes. In a just war, you want to win. And you certainly divide and conquer, and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that.
In rhetoric, one does this by agreeing with people where and on what one can, and disagreeing where one disagrees. Sometimes one must prioritize which is more important. This is how coalitions are formed. This is how dialectic occurs. This is how we think outside of ourselves and our own thoughts and desires and begin to start thinking seriously about the common good.
September 27 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger: No idea how you know what I focus on. Heh. I'm just responding to what is thrust in front of me on the Book of Faces. There are a lot other Federalist Papers, and I teach a number of them. But I also bring in a lot of other works. Aristotle and Plato on democracy. Tocqueville. Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Du Bois, Malcom X. Etc.
And I've pointed to multiple other texts by Madison and in the Fed Papers, of course.
September 27 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But if you wanted to unify souls in early America, you would need one government over those souls, no? Heh. A UNION, as it were?
And if you wanted to unify those souls, you would have to do so in a government of the many by preventing them from joining to look at immediate interest and contravening the common good and violating the rights of minorities, no?
So having a larger government with a more diverse population, if set up such that all the groups could argue publicly about what is best for the whole, might help one along, no?
September 27 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger coalitions generally form by compromise and coalescing different factions. Dialectic, however can end in agreement. That or a better understanding of what divides.
September 27 at 2:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The point is NOT to divide and conquer. The point is that the ALREADY EXISTING DIVISIONS over all the colonies will fight each other and help prevent any one BAD division from becoming the law of the land. It's just an auxiliary and Madison says salutary byproduct of a larger government over a larger population and territory: moderation of majority tyranny.
September 27 at 2:07pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner I tried to describe tNET to some non-FB tutors yesterday evening, but was unable to finish doing so because when I got to the name of our household troll, there was a violent explosion of merry groaning and laughter. #guessIshouldhaveseenthatcoming
September 27 at 2:09pm · Unlike · 11
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Matthew J. Peterson The problem is not that there won't be a majority on any given subject. Of course there will be a majority of people who think such and such. The question is how to prevent the majority from becoming tyrannical. When you are the one, or the few, or the many ultimately in charge in your regime form, you have no one to judge you. You judge yourself. And in a "pure democracy", which Brutus and the Anti-Feds think is ideal, the many rule without opposition, and this is unstable and radical and lacking an aristocratic element.
But, again, Madison doesn't create faction and debate in the public square. That already exists. His point is simply that in a larger republic, it will be harder for a tyrannical majority to form.
September 27 at 2:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So, with religious sects - there will be a majority there too, and Madison is indeed personally suspicious of any such religious majority. But the logic of the Constitution is simply that the only majority that will be able to form will be one that convinces everyone that it will not act unjustly or tyrannize religious minorities.
True, they wanted no established federal religion for obvious practical reasons. But this wasn't true of states and local communities. And the 1st amendment itself could be changed with a majority in agreement, obviously.
September 27 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The real question is what Hamilton asks: if you think that a large republic like that of the Constitution is by nature somehow divisive and too dependent on factions, which is strange to me, then how small does it have to be? As he says, the states are already much larger than anything Aristotle has in mind. So you must want a number of tiny little ancient Greek style republics - but these are tyrannical and unstable, based on "pure democracy" which is generally disastrous without some other binding force.
An exception, perhaps, are the very democratic puritan colonies which are one of the best democratic examples of theocracy you can find in history.
September 27 at 2:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond As you know, it doesn't matter whether my position comes from the Straussians or unicorns; what matters is whether it is true. But since you seem to believe that the reduction of my position to the Straussians weakens my argument, I guess I had better address this point. I first studied the Federalist Papers at Kenyon College under a professor who was a student of Martin Diamond. Diamond, as you know, was a socialist in his earlier life, but he "converted" to the Straussian position and the conservative Republican political agenda that often goes with it. But I do not agree with Diamond's read on the Federalist Papers, nor with any of the other Straussians, all of whom, in my experience, defend and laud Madison. Yes, they point out that he does not strive for the same nobility as the ancients, but they praise him nonetheless for creating a regime that is "lower but solid," or words to that effect. That is, Madison lowers the goal of politics but therefore more readily attains his object. Hence, Madison is to be admired, as you admire him, for being practical, prudent and realistic. But, as you now know well, I do not share this view of Madison. And my critique is quite other than that of the Straussians. I think Plato and Aristotle were fundamentally correct about the nature of politics and the human nature with which it is concerned. I do not think Madison shares Plato's and Aristotle's understanding, and in that respect at least my view is quite mainstream and hardly esoteric. What is not mainstream is my rejection of Madison for his misunderstanding of politics and human nature. That my position is not mainstream is hardly surprising, of course, since most political philosophers today share Madison's fundamental views, the result, no doubt, of the fact that they were raised and formed in the regime he created.
September 27 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. This reading of Madison is modern as the professors of today. They read their own calculation of interests and power politics into that of the founding era.
September 27 at 2:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Edward Langley: Speaking of demonstration in the strict scientific sense, would you say that any of the infallible dogmas of sacred theology (revelation or the Church's infallible interpretation thereof) can be known in this way, that is, through a scientific demonstration?
September 27 at 2:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, Matthew J. Peterson you both seem to be using "divide and conquer" in different ways.
September 27 at 2:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The Straussians I most disagree with, like you, never say what they wanted instead. With the federal government, you have two problems: 1) the people underneath it have different ideas about what the last, best, and highest end of humanity is. So there is no agreement. And 2) this sort of government over extended territory and diverse populations can only do so much and go so far anyhow, as it is largely concerned with more basic common goods by its very nature. Yet they did leave it open to "higher things." And we do flirt with such. But, again, we don't have agreement.
Things go pretty well while you have a general protestant agreement, and then protestantism largely breaks down, often throwing in with liberalism simply in pure form in order to counter Catholicism, which makes things worse. And so you get to where we are.
September 27 at 2:25pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, would you please explain why you think Madison does not share Plato's and Aristotle's notion of politics? Is it because you think Madison does not agree that politics is a natural good for man, or what is it agan?
September 27 at 2:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think the Straussians are quite content with Madison's regime, as long as the Republicans are in power.
September 27 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, I do not follow... how do you say Madison differs from A and P?
September 27 at 2:26pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think you are wrong about Madison creating a regime that is "open to higher things". He already has the highest thing protected: individual liberty. But to keep his version of the highest thing safe, Madison has to shut the door on any "faction" that would establish a truly common good. This, Matthew, is the core of our disagreement.
September 27 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond This is why I say that Madison created a super faction, all of whom agree that individual liberty is the highest good. Here is an example where the words "highest good" clearly do not have the same meaning.
September 27 at 2:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all.
September 27 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, that is quite a leap: to say that Madison quelled faction that would cause a common good, and to say he created a super faction! What do you make of the Bill of Rights?
September 27 at 2:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson All: Did TAC kill the link in the status on purpose? Should we relink to TAC? Or should I start linking to whatever the 'ell I want?
September 27 at 2:31pm · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson Ideas welcome.
September 27 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Um, what link is dead? Cause it worked for me if you mean "my radical "great booksy" alma mater, Thomas Aquinas College"
September 27 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, it sure doesn't look like all agree that individual liberty is the highest good when I look to our laws. Heh. In fact, it seems that equality and liberty are always fighting each other, along with notions of very real and true common goods, regardless of means.
September 27 at 2:33pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson John Boyer: that's my own tag - I'm speaking of the link to the theses.
September 27 at 2:34pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: so, when I moved to Atlanta after graduation, my dad had me meet with this businessman whom he knew. The hope was that he would give me a job, but alas, he was somewhat eccentric, and his idea of how to help me get ahead in the world was sending me to an industrial psychologist. So this guy gave me a bunch of personality tests (and declared me an INTJ), and then told me what I should be (a lawyer). I remain somewhat dubious about personality types in general. When I read the descriptions of INTJ traits, some of them sound like me, and some don't. It seems only slightly more precise than astrology to me.
September 27 at 2:35pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond For Madison it is liberty, but he did not fully anticipate the influence of Rousseau and the slow take over by the principle of equality that de Tocqueville feared.
September 27 at 2:34pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Hmmm that's interesting.... Why would they remove the link?
September 27 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/.../slideshow-2014-seniors...
Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles | Thomas Aquinas College
Each year, starting in the fall and continuing well into the...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 27 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond We do agree on this, I suspect: the regime is coming apart, and the lovers of equality over liberty are in charge.
September 27 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Did they just change it then?
September 27 at 2:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But Plato and Aristotle, knowing well the nature of the democratic soul, predicted this descent long ago.
September 27 at 2:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Liberty isn't so much a good, but rather the free space in society within which we can act.
September 27 at 2:37pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Genuine liberty is a good, but false liberty certainly is not.
September 27 at 2:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, the highest principle in Madison's political philosophy is God the Creator of human liberty. If you are not willing to answer how you feel he disagrees with Aristotle, but instead make additional opinionated claims such as he failed to anticipate Rousseau, then it is increasingly difficult to follow your train of thought.
September 27 at 2:37pm · Like
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John Boyer The link which Matthew put up was a shortened link. http://thaq.co/Y1uhlx
Slideshow: 2014 Seniors and Thesis Titles | Thomas Aquinas College
Each year, starting in the fall and continuing well into the...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 27 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I think the link shortener link just died.
September 27 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott, that's a bold claim. ..
September 27 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I'm sorry, Scott, but you came late to the party and you have to do some catching up on where the argument is now.
September 27 at 2:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Madisonian politics is practical first and foremost and as such has no need for God
September 27 at 2:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I agree Madisonian politics is fundamentally practical, but I do not agree it is practical to think one has no need for God.
September 27 at 2:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia For him it is Jeffrey Bond
September 27 at 2:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We certainly agree on that!
September 27 at 2:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Because Madison's God isn't my God. ..
September 27 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I hope not!
September 27 at 2:42pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond He was definitely not into the Tridentine Mass . .
September 27 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Whether that invalidates the principles of the founding, that is another question.
September 27 at 2:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The question for me is whether or not practical politics fits Jeffrey's understanding at all.
Hence the rocket man bit.
September 27 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond What invalidates them is nature first and foremost. Man is not what they think man is.
September 27 at 2:45pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I don't think practice can ever take its eyes off of truth. Agreed?
September 27 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think most regimes are usually coming apart. If fact, most institutions.
To me you are blaming secondary structural aspects that are good and not bad, and neutral to what you oppose.
September 27 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Prudence is not, as you suggest above, about winning. You equivocated on "win" when you equated politics with just war.
September 27 at 2:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I tend to be a hugely uncompromising ass when it comes to theory, but in practice I tend to be more . . . able to see gray areas. Madisonian politics is the latter for me.
September 27 at 2:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No, I point to the secondary structural aspects as evidence of Madison's principles. As I said, division in government is much older than Madison. Madison's problem is that he thinks we, by nature, are fundamentally divided. By fallen nature, yes. By nature simply, no.
September 27 at 2:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course - practical refers properly to means ordered to right ends. Your problem with the word "winning" and, indeed, your fundamental error is simply not thinking politically at all. And by that I do not mean disregarding morality or the common good.
September 27 at 2:48pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So how do you define politics?
September 27 at 2:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm going to a bookstore. Have fun y'all
September 27 at 2:49pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Are we still talking about Madison?
September 27 at 2:57pm · Like
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John Ashman "Jeffrey Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all."
What is higher?
September 27 at 3:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, I have read every entry of tNET and I do not see where you have every really explained what you regard as the fundamental difference between Aristotle and Madison. You seem to be describing Madison as a godless libertarian.
September 27 at 3:06pm · Like
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John Ashman Sigh. The reIigous can't get over the faIIacy that the Founders were aII of one reIigious mindset and the non-reIigious can't get over the faIIacy that they were theoIogicaI thugs.
September 27 at 3:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm just saying, if you read Madison at face value, he is a Christian.
September 27 at 3:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When did Matthew J. Peterson change the disclaimer to include the possibility that some of us are mentally ill? Not that it's not obviously true, of course.
September 27 at 3:11pm · Like · 7
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Catherine Ryland Oh good, TNET is almost itself again.
September 27 at 3:11pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Wish I had a lot more time to catch up...
September 27 at 3:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine, excuses, excuses
September 27 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Samantha, I think he had Joshua and Edward in mind. Anyone who posts that much latin....
September 27 at 3:13pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson: I wrote: "Madison says in Federalist 10 that "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit." But what does Madison mean by "justice"? Based on this passage and others like it, it seems clear that Madison identifies justice with liberty. For Madison, justice is not, as St. Thomas defined it, "a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will." Justice in this traditional sense requires giving God and neighbor what they are due, as opposed to Madisonian justice which is the accidental outcome of ambition having been made to counteract ambition so that men can then get whatever they can get in the interstices."
You wrote in response: "The passage you cite does NOT equate liberty with justice. In fact, one cannot make sense of it if that is the case. The passage you cite reveals that Madison does NOT equate liberty with justice - it proves MY point. What he means is that we treasure justice so much, that we will give up liberty and self-government in the pursuit of it. He is referring to demagogues and tyrants who arise in the midst of radically democratic mayhem and INJUSTICE, which is what he specifically complains of in the states, repeatedly."
I think the burden is on you, Matthew, to say what Madison meant by justice if he did not equate it with liberty. (Especially since that is the mainstream view on Madison, yes? Hence, my reading here is hardly "esoteric".) Are you saying that Madison agreed with St. Thomas' definition of justice? Madison is certainly not in agreement about justice requiring both the individual and state to give God His due. And what is due to each citizen is, for Madison, negative not positive. Each is due the liberty to pursue happiness as he sees fit, for happiness is fundamentally subjective for Madison. Were it otherwise, he could not speak as he does and allow its attainment, in principle, to be left to the shifting sands of temporary equilibrium created by the conflict between factions.
September 27 at 3:15pm · Like
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John Ashman IronicaIIy, we have the reIigious who beIieve that reIigion shouId be imbedded within government, even though the Founders understood the bad resuIts of this thoroughIy, and yet, go baIIistic at the thought that Sharia Iaw couId become imbedded.
September 27 at 3:15pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Actually, that is only ironic if you think all religious are equally untrue.
September 27 at 3:16pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe John Ashman, what's ironic about people supporting one kind of theocracy, and not another?
September 27 at 3:16pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe jinx, Dr. Spaceman.
September 27 at 3:16pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Scott Weinberg, how could you have read everything written on this thread (and others) on the debate about Madison and Aristotle and not seen over and over again that, at least according to my argument, they differ on teleology?
September 27 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John Ashman, you wrote: "Jeffrey Bond And since they agree that individual liberty is the highest good, they chaff at any suggestion that there is anything higher that should bind us all."
What is higher?
Truth. As in, "the Truth will set you Free."
September 27 at 3:22pm · Like
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John Ashman samantha, because you're saying that the personaI reIigious nature of one person is vaIid and the other is not and you're wiIIng to force yours on them. Yet are infuriated if the reverse is true. It's more hyocriticaI than ironic.
September 27 at 3:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that religion. Even so, she said nothing about forcing the religion on someone else.
September 27 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman This is the probiem with deepIy heId beIiefs. They're generaIIy arbiitrary or faIse, but the conviction to force it on to others is very high.
September 27 at 3:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You are assuming a different kind of interlocutor than the ones you've got here I think, John Ashman.
September 27 at 3:24pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond And John, are you not trying to "force" your nonreligious position on others?
September 27 at 3:25pm · Like
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John Ashman "It is not hypocritical if she is convinced of the truth of that religion."
Yes it is.
September 27 at 3:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is yours not a "deeply held belief"? Why is your belief exempt from your critique?
September 27 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Nope. I beIieve that states that promote atheism are as dangerous or more dangerous than those who promote reIigion. The proper roIe of government is to neither promote, not infringe.
September 27 at 3:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The danger here lies in thinking Plato is right simply or practically or absolutely re statecraft as soulcraft, and what "soulcraft might be given the birth of "priestcraft".
Now, the goal is still "living well" as opposed to simply living or the city of pigs.
But the problem is that the more we bear down on what the last highest best purpose of human beings is the more disagreement there is. The question becomes how we convince or force people to act as if or agree that our understanding of that end is right or true.
Further, there is the problem of organization. We are naturally social, but we are rational. Governments don't grow wholly organically. We construct them in no small part. And it is not clear how this ought to be done.
September 27 at 3:26pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Same exact thoughts they had towards immigration.
September 27 at 3:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm actually on the anti-theocracy side of tNET, but I don't think the right argument against theocracy is that it's ironic, or hypocritical. As Dr. Spaceman said, that only applies if you assume there isn't a true religion.
September 27 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Same problem arises for the order and structure of the University. We would have to have the mind of God and knowledge of all that is in order to know how best to create and structure the University.
September 27 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond So your deeply held belief, that states should not promote or infringe, you think should be forced on others who disagree with that.
September 27 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman There is no true reIigion.
September 27 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So you have mastered all the religions of the world and KNOW they are all false. How do you know that, John?
September 27 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And if promoters of theocracy agreed with you, then they would be hypocrites.
September 27 at 3:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But since they don't, they're just mistaken about the best way to promote the good through human government
September 27 at 3:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You think your position is neutral, John, but it is anything but neutral.
September 27 at 3:29pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Same problem arises for our position in nature. We are in some way of the highest beings on earth and in charge over it. But it is beyond us in many ways, and our ignorance is overwhelming.
September 27 at 3:29pm · Like
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John Ashman No, it's hypocrisy of government. You onIy beIieve it is right to force your "right" ideoIogy on others and refuse to accept the opposite.
September 27 at 3:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I do not advocate force in this matter at all. There is a middle ground between "force" and "liberty" (in your sense of the word). It is called education.
September 27 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ashman If God wanted to ensure one true reIigion, aII he needs to do is stop by and do an announcement.
September 27 at 3:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You and Madison are the ones who want to force your "neutral" position on others and then point the finger at believers and call them people who want to force their views on others.
September 27 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Science is education, ReIigion is indoctrination whoIIy Iaccing observabIe substance.
September 27 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Our Lord did make that announcement, John. I guess you missed it.
September 27 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You hold a religious position without realizing it, John.
September 27 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No, peopIe have cIaimed he did, but onIy a Iuccy handfuI appeared to be invited. God wouId invite everyone if he were serious.
September 27 at 3:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I am all for science, and I have shown you five different ways, based on the science of logic, that you are contradicting yourself.
September 27 at 3:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So now you know not only that all religions are false, but also that God did not go about things the right way.
September 27 at 3:33pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman In the absense of proof, there is no vaIid argument for God in government.
September 27 at 3:33pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond There are proofs, John.
September 27 at 3:33pm · Like
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John Ashman Scientific proofs?
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But if you do not acknowledge contradiction, I don't think they will mean much to you.
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What do you mean by scientific?
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman RepeatabIe with proper methodoIogy?
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like
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John Ashman even the Founders understood that god and government don't mix.
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Mere assertion. Is that science?
September 27 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Liberalism lies about its neutrality, of course. But it doesn't truly emerge here until 100 years ago or so. If you asked anyone, elite or no, about John's position they would have laughed and shot it full of wholes.
This is obvious if anyone pays attention to what most of the founding generation thought liberty truly was or meant: never mind the American Protestants for a century before and after.
September 27 at 3:34pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Repeatable experiments with proper methodology don't constitute proof, just evidence
September 27 at 3:35pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman What's your evidence for one right reIigion?
September 27 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What's your evidence that all religions are false?
September 27 at 3:36pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ashman I don't need any. You need to prove that one of them is not.
September 27 at 3:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If you are going to force your "neutral" position on me and others believers, I think you need some proof.
September 27 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman Of course, one can Iooq at the constant change of CathoIism and Chrisitanity and contradictions and have a good idea it's not them. Aii of the stories are based on pagan stories.
September 27 at 3:39pm · Like
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John Ashman The Oid and New testaments are a mess of contradiction.
September 27 at 3:39pm · Like
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John Ashman Thomas Gefferson expIained this.
September 27 at 3:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So you do accept contradiction as a measure of what is not true? Please then explain the contradictions in your position that I have repeatedly demonstrated.
September 27 at 3:40pm · Like
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John Ashman what contradiciton?
September 27 at 3:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Have we not been talking with each other these last twenty minutes or so?
September 27 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley He did John, 2000 years ago.
September 27 at 3:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley We're just hard of hearing.
September 27 at 3:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think we caught va "new atheist" guys! I have to go read my children inferior quality children's literature, but don't let him leave!
September 27 at 3:41pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ashman Even if any one Founder beIieved in one true reIigion, most appeared to beIieve via their votes that there it has no pIace in government, onIy in the person.
September 27 at 3:41pm · Like
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John Ashman And that forcing a singIe reIigion is wrong, even if the reIigions is right.
September 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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John Ashman Not even Gesus beIieved he was the son of God. He was a reformer.
September 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You are the only one advocating force here, John. No one else has even hinted at it.
September 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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John Ashman what is the "higher" cause
September 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Even the least religious founders thought Jesus Christ the greatest of moral teachers, and thought religion and reason overlapped to such a degree that both taught almost the same about how we ought to live.
September 27 at 3:42pm · Like
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John Ashman the one more important than Iiberty?
September 27 at 3:43pm · Like
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John Ashman Jesus didn't beIieve in force nor government run reIigion.
September 27 at 3:43pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley And, John Boyer, I post Latin just to irritate you.
September 27 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And Thomas Jefferson, perhaps the most modern of the founders, who was very into modern science, John Ashman, was mad at priests because they taught that faith was needed to believe in God - when he thought all you needed was reason.
September 27 at 3:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Jesus is a great spirituaI teacher. Jefferson didn't beIieve he was teh son of God.
September 27 at 3:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, Jefferson took it for granted that his university of Virginia would have a publicly paid professor of ethics and morals who would teach the existence of God via reason.
September 27 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It is pleasure to be agreeing with you, Matthew. I guess that is what you mean by "politics"!
September 27 at 3:44pm · Like · 7
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John Ashman Question even the existence of God for......
September 27 at 3:45pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And he welcomed all the denominations to pay for their own professors of theology who would be part of campus life.
September 27 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Even Catholics?
September 27 at 3:46pm · Like
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John Ashman But...my Iogic and reason tooq me eIsewhere.
September 27 at 3:46pm · Like
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John Ashman So, modern evangeIicaIs don't care for Jefferson because he didn't accept Jesus as his "Iord and savior"
September 27 at 3:47pm · Like
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John Ashman CathoIicism is Iiqe EngIish. It grew by absorbing everything around it. the whoIe Jesus thing is based on pagan stories.
September 27 at 3:48pm · Like
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John Ashman immacuIate conception, resurrection, etc. AIi not new ideas.
September 27 at 3:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You have a right, John Ashman, not to be forced to accept revelation or faith. But you have a sacred or central duty to hone your conscience and seek the truth with all your heart, mind, and soul
September 27 at 3:50pm · Like
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John Ashman "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
September 27 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman My u nderstanding of bond's position is that we need a theocracy based on higher one true reIigion principIes and that this is more important than freedom.
September 27 at 3:51pm · Like
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John Ashman My wife is as serious a CathoIic as anyone here (never misses sunday) but we accept each other's different beIiefs. She's going to try to "save" me though. She's waiting for some openig.
September 27 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger I blocked Ashman yesterday. In him the religious character of the principles of the founding are most evident. It is a blind faith, zealous and indefatigable. And contradiction be damned.
September 27 at 3:56pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond No, John. I have never once advocated a theocracy. The paradigm in your brain compels you to push me into that position to fit your preconceived categories. This habit of mind reflects precisely my concern about the founding principles and how they shape souls.
September 27 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I add my prayers to those of your wife.
September 27 at 4:00pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I do not agree with your assumption, John, that freedom and authority are opposed in principle.
September 27 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman What is the higher good, beyond Iiberty?
September 27 at 4:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John: Following the pattern of the shadows of the American cave, you are next going to be saying that I think everyone who disagrees with me is going to Hell.
September 27 at 6:29pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I like the common one.
September 27 at 4:04pm · Like
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John Ashman Authority is onIy good and vaIid when it protects naturaI rights. Otherwise, it is anti-freedom buIIying.
September 27 at 4:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley I want the Scott-troll back.
September 27 at 4:04pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Natural?
September 27 at 4:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond On what authority do you accept natural rights, John?
September 27 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Sentient rights, if you prefer.
September 27 at 4:05pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please explain.
September 27 at 4:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger von Liddihn's (?) book demonstrates that democracy is opposed to liberty (since its true aim is equality).
September 27 at 4:05pm · Like
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John Ashman It's not authority, it needs onIy the abiIity to reason and the abiIity to empathize. Once you reaIize that your bubbIe of seIf is essentiaIIy identicaI in nature to aII others, and you can get to the idea that you shouId treat others as you wish to be treated, then you're there.
September 27 at 4:06pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You then are the one true authority?
September 27 at 4:07pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond What do you do with all the other bubbles who don't see it your way?
September 27 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No, it is the acceptance that everyone is their own authority and I am not theirs.
September 27 at 4:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Utilitarianism is so nineteenth century.
September 27 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Then you have the right to defend yourseIf against aggression from eviI.
September 27 at 4:08pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You envision a land of Cyclopses, each making laws for himself and his own.
September 27 at 6:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Aggression, in your world, is in the eye of the beholder.
September 27 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman your reIigion is so 2000 years out of date.
September 27 at 4:08pm · Like
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John Ashman Aggression is fairIy weII accepted in meaning.
September 27 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I will check out the church of what's happenin' now to get updated!
September 27 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "Accepted in meaning" is the true authority?
September 27 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ashman Of course, the reIigious rareIy beIieve they are aggressing, they are saving peopIe by chopping their heads off.
September 27 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger One's own conscience is the supreme arbiter . . . . unless it hold that their is a Truth that binds all consciences. Then we have troubles.
September 27 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Again, there is no true authority. there are 7biIIion of them.
September 27 at 4:11pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I recall you said elsewhere that we can only know "accepted" meaning, not objective meaning. So why should anyone take seriously any claim you make? What motivates you to speak? The desire for power?
September 27 at 4:12pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman No one has to accept any cIaim.
September 27 at 4:12pm · Like
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John Ashman there is no obgective meaning.
September 27 at 4:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I asked what motivated you to speak. That puzzles me if we cannot, in principle, come to know something as it is.
September 27 at 4:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond When you say "There is no objective meaning," is what you mean objective?
September 27 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman YOu refuse to answer what is "higher" than Iiberty.
September 27 at 4:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I did answer long ago. Truth.
September 27 at 4:14pm · Like
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John Ashman Meaning is subgective.
September 27 at 4:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Check out the court records, John. I did answer you.
September 27 at 4:14pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond If meaning were subjective, I would not know what you meant by that claim.
September 27 at 4:15pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman truth such as...taII taIes about a dead person?
September 27 at 4:15pm · Like
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John Ashman we agree on the meaning of subgective and obGective as we use them. but we created those meanings. they weren't there before. It is a product of our mind.
September 27 at 4:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Your mind, you mean.
September 27 at 4:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond On your own theory, you cannot know my mind.
September 27 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ashman do you disagree with the dictionary?
September 27 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ashman that's why I can't teII you how to Iive.
September 27 at 4:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The dictionary is now the supreme authority?
September 27 at 4:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman and you have no direct Iine to god that you have argued, Iet aIone proven.
September 27 at 4:17pm · Like
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John Ashman what truth do you need to impose upon me?
September 27 at 4:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We are just talking about natural reason here, John. If you cannot see that meaning is not subjective, then I don't think talking about Jesus is going to help us communicate better.
September 27 at 4:18pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The truth imposes itself on all, John. It needs no help from me.
September 27 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "What we have here is a failure to communicate."
September 27 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman so there's no need for reIigion in government or forced reIigion of any type.
September 27 at 4:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
September 27 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman what is the use of truth to a government? what type of truth has it the authority to force?
September 27 at 4:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond True religion cannot be forced. You are the only one talking of force.
September 27 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Pilate: "What is truth?"
September 27 at 4:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I am still wondering how you exempt yourself from your own position, John. Are you not making truth claims here? And if you are not, what is motivating you to speak?
September 27 at 4:21pm · Unlike · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Power? Prestige? Idle curiosity?
September 27 at 4:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You have claimed to KNOW that all religions are false. Is that not a massive claim to truth?
September 27 at 4:24pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Nothing is true and John is its prophet.
September 27 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond You have claimed to KNOW that all meaning is subjective. Is that not a massive claim to truth?
September 27 at 4:25pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman when did I cIaim that truth doesn't exist?
September 27 at 4:27pm · Like
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John Ashman supernaturaI truth, however, is an oxymoron.
September 27 at 4:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If I misunderstood you, I apologize. So you do think we can know things objectively?
September 27 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What if only his meaning is subjective. How can he be sure it is not?
September 27 at 4:29pm · Like
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John Ashman i thinq we can get to the point where we accept them as obgective, via scientific proof, math and demonstration. But wiId, after the fact cIaims don't reaIIy cut it for that.
September 27 at 4:29pm · Like
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John Ashman i wonder if Mary new she was a virgin.
September 27 at 4:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Are they objective because we accept them as so? Or do we accept them because they are objective?
September 27 at 4:30pm · Like
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John Ashman these things shouId maqe aII christians doubt their authority to impose their beIiefs on others.
September 27 at 4:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I am trying to grasp what you mean by truth, John, but you're not helping because "force" and "imposing" seem to be all you can think about.
September 27 at 4:33pm · Like
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John Ashman Humans are faIIibIe enought that "obective truths" aiways Ieave the door open to questioning. but the more proof, evidence, math, the better. I mean, seriousIy, not even Jews thinq Jesus was the son of God.
September 27 at 4:33pm · Like
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John Ashman I'm trying to find out what truth has to do with government. why is this more important than protection of freedom.
September 27 at 4:34pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is your position as just stated--that "objective truths" are always tentative--also tentative?
September 27 at 4:35pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Or do you know that your claim is unalterably true?
September 27 at 4:35pm · Like
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John Ashman what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan freedom?
September 27 at 4:35pm · Like
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John Ashman what does truth have to do with government and why is it more important htan freedom?
September 27 at 4:35pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John, you are shifting ground. Please answer the question.
September 27 at 4:35pm · Like
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John Ashman not untiI you answer mine first. Mine has precedence from way bacc. YOu'er the one moving the goaI posts to avoid baccing up your statement.
September 27 at 4:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John, if we cannot agree that the mind can know things as they are, then there is no point in discussing anything. That question takes precedence over anything, does it not?
September 27 at 4:37pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman not reaIIy, but nice dodge.
September 27 at 4:38pm · Like
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John Ashman i accept your surrender.
September 27 at 4:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You are a most gracious man, John. But what does surrender mean?
September 27 at 4:38pm · Like
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Brian Kemple *tags in*
The first important distinction is the meaning of freedom. If that which is free is "that which is unconditioned," then freedom would not be contingent upon the truth of what is, but nevertheless is meaningless in a world of dynamic and dependent interactions. If freedom is, however, "the lack of determination to one particular," then freedom requires an understanding of that-to-which one can be determined and is consequently contingent upon that grasp, i.e., knowing things as they are.
September 27 at 4:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I said above that once truth is dismissed, then power, prestige or some other goal becomes the goal of discussion. Since you are looking for surrender rather than truth, it seems you agree with my position.
September 27 at 4:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It's a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable discourse.
September 27 at 4:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond So I guess I was not mistaken when I said that you thought that truth does not exist, John.
September 27 at 4:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Pot meet kettle.
September 27 at 4:43pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe If you don't believe in truth, freedom literally has no meaning
September 27 at 4:44pm · Like · 6
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Scott Weinberg Can anyone tell me why the Arab world is upset with the US? We've done so much for them. We've given them the gifts of western democracy, we've toppled regimes and all the want to do is kill us.
September 27 at 4:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, it is not immediately obvious how Aristotle and Madison differ in the area of theology. Aristotle was a philosopher, and Madison was a political philosopher and statesman. They both believed that truth and freedom come from God. There is not this radical difference you suppose. You also claimed Aristotle and Hobbes were opposites. This is not exactly clear either. Perhaps you not exactly engaged on solid ground, in this "conversation"?
September 27 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict "It's a real drag when grown men prefer not being wrong to reasonable discourse." HAHAHAHAHA
September 27 at 4:48pm · Unlike · 5
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Scott Weinberg Ha-ha... ha.
September 27 at 4:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Kettle and pot indeed, Jeff.
September 27 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Kettle, pot, charcoal and burnt remains all at once.
September 27 at 4:50pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me Madison and Aristotle are most different in that one was Greek, and the other an American, one lived before Christ, the other lived after Christ. One was a Christian, the other not.
September 27 at 4:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aristotle wrote a book titled Politics. Madison did not. There, that is another difference. Can we agree?
September 27 at 4:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But of all these difference, Jeffrey Bond claims they differ most in the area they most agreed upon, that God was the Creator.
September 27 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict ENFP (close, Samantha!)
sanguine choleric
4w5, 7w8, 9w8 (Nina)
September 27 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Aristotle = Hobbes = Madison. Its so clear. Deism = Catholicism. / debate. << I can be reasonable too.
September 27 at 4:56pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Aristotle does not equal Hobbes, and Hobbes does not equal Madison, but they are not opposites, and the biggest similarity is between Aristotle and Madison in their understanding of God.
September 27 at 4:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Ruplinger, we were discussing whether or not the God of Washington and Madison is the same God as a Catholic in good standing. It seems they are and I am not sure why anyone would say they are not. Would you care to elaborate?
September 27 at 5:00pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg ... I didn't think so...
September 27 at 5:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg 24,000
September 27 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am a bit stuck on the natural religion argument on the other thread. The assumptions of the counterargument are denied and we may be at an impass. BUT I answered Scott already.
September 27 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg John ßwenkler, welcome to tNET 24,000 where we all have agreed that the God of Aristotle is the same God as Madison, and the same God as Catholics who know love and serve that same God to higher perfection.
September 27 at 5:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If I had time to research more into the Federalist papers and to think about political philosophy I am sure I would have something better to contribute than this post.
September 27 at 5:05pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Ditto what Daniel said.
September 27 at 5:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As it is, who is this John Ashman fellow, and why does he Truth, Beauty, and Goodness?
September 27 at 5:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Since we are all agreed that these good political philosophers were speaking of the same God but in different ways, and to various perfections, and since we all agree that the Church hopes for the salvation of those who have not had the occasion to be baptized, we can agree that most Americans who believe in God have a great deal in common.
September 27 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Nobody agrees with Scott, that we can agree upon.
September 27 at 5:10pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg And having this in common does not constitute a faction of the majority but, as Madison said, a Union, the mortal powers of which must be divided to ensure a balance of power, so that these God-given freedoms under the dominion of God alone, who is the ultimate power, is not put asunder.
September 27 at 5:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Madison would agree with the above... they are pretty much his own words.
September 27 at 5:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Actually, while I am not sure that I agree, what Scott just said here seems reasonable.
September 27 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thank you Daniel. You are a blessed soul.
September 27 at 5:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg To be fair, I was just paraphrasing Madison, but you have a blessed brain. I can tell.
September 27 at 5:13pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I don't mean to flatter.
September 27 at 5:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^ do you mean like going to hell? RE: "a great deal in common" cf. Unam Sanctam
September 27 at 5:13pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No, John! No!
September 27 at 5:14pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg But these truths are not so far off from what is before us today. We do have a higher good before us today, and a more proximate good, and Catholics are very blessed with a greater degree of responsibility. There is no reason why you should not run for office. It is a lot easier than you think, and the benefits are very great. Yes, we make mistakes, but our government was made for the Catholic.
September 27 at 5:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I do enjoy john Ashman's arguments to power and self control. I do not know him, but it seems he is fighting an unspoken past and not willing to admit to an objective reality while simultaneously stating that the scientific method (deduction not induction) is the basis of knowing. Willing to admit perceived effects but not admit causes.
September 27 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Maybe not made for the Catholic, but it is a surprise good for the Catholic.
September 27 at 5:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Without Catholic participation, it begins to falter.
September 27 at 5:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^The last statement is certainly true.
September 27 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am far too inclined to, "circle up the wagons," myself.
September 27 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But political participation and political philosophy cannot be reduced to the strictest definition of science. It aims at all those things which are reasonable, yet fall outside of the realm of scientific knowledge in the strict sense.
September 27 at 5:18pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg But the Catholic must plunge into political life in America. There is nothing to fear.
September 27 at 5:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Except terrible headaches and endless stress.
September 27 at 5:19pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- ah, I should have known about the 'F.' A poet should be an 'F'
September 27 at 5:19pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Too bad you have a polarized personality where you pit people that are closest to you in belief opposite from you in support.
September 27 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
September 27 at 5:20pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I think John Ashman has left, but now that we're back from the park, I just have to address the "Jesus didn't know he was the Son of God" nonsense claim
September 27 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott: what is your Myers-Briggs status?
September 27 at 5:21pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Jesus claimed to be the Son of God all through the gospels, but it's true scholars in the last decade following the historico-critical method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with Jesus.
September 27 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger FYI I think John Medaille is convincing in showing that the influential founders were not natural religionists but Deists. This circumvents the natural religion argument vis a vis founding docs. On the other thread.
September 27 at 5:25pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But that's because their entire approach to the text involves assuming that any historical figure in it could only have believed what was commonly believed at the time. and of course miracles such as the Incarnation are ruled out at the outset
September 27 at 5:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott is an ESFP
September 27 at 5:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Wow...
September 27 at 5:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When I said "literally every person on tNET is an N" I was excluding trolls
September 27 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Opposite eh?
September 27 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^totally a guess, of course
September 27 at 5:24pm · Like
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Joel HF Where is this other argument with Medaille, John Ruplinger?
September 27 at 5:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Lacks intuition, thought and judgement.
September 27 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nothing wrong with being an ESFP, of course. Technically.
September 27 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Of course not but that is why communication is so different, stylistically.
September 27 at 5:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe it would make sense, right?
September 27 at 5:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Poetry, seeking political office, sensitive and holds strongly to beliefs (strong BVM devotion). Yeah.
September 27 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger David Upham's status: UD intra-politics department warfare. Pretty cordial really but animated. I knew David in grad school.
September 27 at 5:30pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Many strong traits that I lack. (Not wholly lack... That sounds odd.
I'm just more on the rational side of know the truth is better than feeling the truthishness)
September 27 at 5:30pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Matthew, I do not really believe in the Briggs Myers stuff. I think it is ok to have pen names. It is ok if your pen name has a pen name. I think the only thing that matters is the words that are said: are they true or not... are the words on solid ground. it does not matter who says the words. Today, 99% of the conversation is not scientific. It's all political and poetical. So, yes I failed out of TAC, then studied three years of lit at Christendom and 2 years of rhetoric at CUA then was hired as a speechwriter in the Bush Admin. I think I learned the most at TAC... but I think there is too much emotion placed on the scientific. I find that frustrating.
September 27 at 5:29pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Oh man, I'd have liked to see that.
September 27 at 5:29pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, of course if you assume Jesus was a human, non-miraculous Jew, as many modern scholars do, you're going to think he never claimed to be the Son of God. But those assumptions on the part of scholars make that kind of scholarship irrelevant to Christians
September 27 at 5:29pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg IF you have learned the scientific and the natural theology, you do need to look at Dogma for your own happiness sake.
September 27 at 5:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg After that, I am not sure if anyone understands what an incredible gift this country is. It's an oyster and the world is your oyster.
September 27 at 5:31pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha, it's not the assumptions which make it irrelevant, its the lack of any proof
September 27 at 5:31pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg The Incorruptibles are good proof. At least the scientists say so.
September 27 at 5:32pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that's a very different question than the textual question of Scripture; and to my mind (I've looked into it) the "incorruptibles" arent proof of anything
September 27 at 5:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but be that as it may
September 27 at 5:34pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Our goal is not to prove the divinity or the miraculousness of Jesus. Our goal is to learn devotion to God and neighbor, even if the neighbor is a Samaritan.
September 27 at 5:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, are you still a Molinist?
September 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^(Just thought I'd stir the pot)
September 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No one should be trying to convince you of what you do not believe. That is like trying to start a fire in the rain.
September 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What's a molinist?
September 27 at 5:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg even if the neighbor is a molinist. btw, what is a molinist?
September 27 at 5:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante someone who has doubts about the omniscience and omnipotence of God
September 27 at 5:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism
Molinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Molinism, named after 16th Century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a religious doctrine which attempts to...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 27 at 5:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Scott, so you will never change an opinion about your current beliefs?
September 27 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Right, because it makes a lot more sense to try to convince someone of what he already believes...
September 27 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Me? I deny ever being a Molinist, despite your best efforts to label me as such, sophomore year.
September 27 at 5:37pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I say that a Molinist is a "semi-pelagian"
September 27 at 5:37pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I did try, Joel HF.
September 27 at 5:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante preach it, brother!
September 27 at 5:37pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple It's a shame the pope (I forget which one) made Banez stop discussing divine foreknowledge at the same time that he made Molina stop discussing divine foreknowledge...
September 27 at 5:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, I change my opinion about my beliefs all the time. I think you need to in order to grow.
September 27 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Kantor A molinist is a bit like a wart, but it believes in free will.
September 27 at 5:38pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Brian, I think that helped prevent war.
September 27 at 5:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But Scott, you just said the opposite"No one should be trying to convince you of what you do not believe. That is like trying to start a fire in the rain."
September 27 at 5:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I find it hard to imagine how anyone could wonder about such things as Providence and free will. Is it not more immediately satisfying to perceive the needs of the poor, or the simple wants of another, or simply how to interact with another to be happy? Isn't that enough?
September 27 at 5:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I used to think it would be cool if a pope just condemned Molinism, today. But then I got to thinking, if the Church did that, the whole world would just think, "WTF?!?!" and that would be all.
September 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ah, but belief comes from God, like a gift falling from the sky. My opinion of that gift is always changing. Am I making sense?
September 27 at 5:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, St. Paul thought it important enough to talk about.
September 27 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ah yes, St. Paul's letter to the Molinists...
September 27 at 5:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson John Ruplinger: my take on the beliefs of Jefferson is based on reading a ton of Jefferson. I think I've read every word he ever wrote about religion or God, but who knows.
He thought you could prove the existence of God with reason. That Christ was the greatest moral teacher, but obviously not divine. He eschewed the revelation of Christianity. He didn't believe in a watchmaker God, either, quite, as he did speak of God intervening or some sort of overarching justice that was a touch providential from time to time.
September 27 at 5:41pm · Like · 6
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, my belief comes from God, not from someone trying to talk my belief into existence... my opinion of my belief is changing and developing quite constantly. Does this make sense? I want to make sure I answer your question. My aim is to please.
September 27 at 5:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, Joel HF, as it is now more than 10 years since I accused you of being a Molinist and holding heretical views on predestination I would just like to say that I am sorry for saying that you held heretical views on predestination.
But if I were pope...
September 27 at 5:42pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I thought you were pope.
September 27 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 27 at 5:44pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Wow, Scott. Do you work out?
September 27 at 5:44pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: “Look, it’s not like I don’t have actual reasons for not believing in God. It’s not like I haven’t ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn’t see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out, ‘Oh, God, if there is a God, I’m lost in this blizzard, and I’m gonna die if you don’t help me.'” And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. “Well then you must believe now,” he says, “After all, here you are, alive.” The atheist just rolls his eyes. “No, man, all that happened was a couple Eskimos came wandering by and showed me the way back to camp.”
September 27 at 5:47pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson This is Jefferson's personal spin on what the University of Virginia should do. It reveals him pretty well:
"In conformity with the principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing, with the jealousies of the different sects in guarding that equality from encroachment and surprise, and with the sentiments of the Legislature in favor of freedom of religion, manifested on former occasions, we have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects. Proceeding thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets."
September 27 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson AGAIN, consider this:
"We have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects. "
September 27 at 5:50pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Pope Scott says "my belief comes from God, not from someone trying to talk my belief into existence." Related to the atheist and Eskimo story above - why can't God give you belief through the persuasive words of others?
September 27 at 5:48pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson When this understanding broke down as to what reason could do in regard to morality (of the general harmony re ethics between religion and reason and proofs for the existence of God, etc.) that's when things began to fall apart. This was the key to making it all work.
September 27 at 5:49pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Absolute morality in a relativism of theology (or there about). This seems to simultaneous and directly argue against Scott's "we are all at the same God" and Ashman's "there are no objective truths".
It seems there is something real and perceived, but the specifics are not necessary for the state to exist.
September 27 at 5:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Exactly, Matthew, that's why Jefferson's god is not my God. Pretty clear
September 27 at 5:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger The debate on the other thread is a small one only: whether the founders were natural religionists or Deists \ rationalists. Its not a primary consideration IMO, but a nice hammer to beat people over the head with one way or the other
September 27 at 5:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not think that is me pictured above. It is hard to tell without the mask.
September 27 at 5:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If Jefferson's God isn't any of you people's God, then neither is Aristotle's.
September 27 at 5:56pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia true that
September 27 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia or rather, DUH
September 27 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, it seems to me that much of the great conversation in Western thought, from the Hellenistic-Hebrew conversation, till today, has been a constant revision of opinion to align more closely with God's gift of belief.
September 27 at 5:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But the key to the founding era was that most folks were Christians, and even the elites who were most "modern" thought something akin to Jefferson above.
September 27 at 5:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict One of Pope Scott's many problems is blind certainty, a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn’t even know he’s locked up.
September 27 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Just like the atheist in the bar.
September 27 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Puritans don't share my God either....
September 27 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Stop being so selfish with your God Beitia - let the rest of us in on the action
September 27 at 5:58pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia are you Catholic? Do you believe in the trinity? getting there
September 27 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I don't believe in the gods of the BASQUE!
September 27 at 6:01pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia me neither. Jeffie
September 27 at 6:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is absurd, however, to say that "nature and nature's god" in the declaration is the same as the One True Triune God of true religion
September 27 at 6:02pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson ?
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia !
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg When Madison et al came up with the concept of man being endowed by God with unalienable rights, this was just a revised opinion of Aristotle's belief in God...
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia lowercase your g
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That's not what many at the time thought. I'd say its similar to the "Aristotle's God" debate.
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia lowercase your g
September 27 at 6:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg GGG
September 27 at 6:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg not ggg
September 27 at 6:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Up with G, down with g.
September 27 at 6:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia stiff necked and unruly
September 27 at 6:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia he cannot be taught
September 27 at 6:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger thurificati
September 27 at 6:13pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: excuses for what?! Is ENTJ the only type that doesn't need excusing?
September 27 at 6:12pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Aristotle's god bears little resemblance to Jefferson's watchmaker.
September 27 at 6:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Tbf, I did flirt with Molinism in my youth.
September 27 at 6:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Scott, is this a belief you hold by "god's gift of belief" or one by reason?
September 27 at 6:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jefferson didn't believe in a watchmaker God.
September 27 at 6:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Once again, read closely, Joel HF (the "watchmaker" bit was false concerning many "deists" of the time). "Preserver." As well as all the occasions where Jefferson talks (even privately) about providential justice, etc.
"We have proposed no professor of divinity; and the rather as the proofs of the being of a God, the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe, the author of all the relations of morality, and of the laws and obligations these infer, will be within the province of the professor of ethics to which adding the developments of these moral obligations, of those in which all sects agree, with a knowledge of the languages, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, a basis will be formed common to all sects."
September 27 at 6:23pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I really don't care about the details of Jefferson's, Madison's, or even Aristotle's gods. They're all false, and that's okay. Jefferson and Madison can still form a pretty good political union, and Aristotle can talk about things. They're all just wrong about the most important thing.
September 27 at 6:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't insist that my pastry-maker have intimate and accurate knowledge of the divine, do I?
September 27 at 6:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If anything, Joel HF, Jefferson's understanding was far closer to Christianity than Aristotle's. That's almost beyond question. He thought Christ the great moral teacher, likely thought that the universe had a beginning, and knew of Christian virtues and thought them overlapping with what reason would tell you to a large extent.
September 27 at 6:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "great moral teacher" doesn't get us any closer than Islam
September 27 at 6:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jefferson was a closet Mohammedan!?
September 27 at 6:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill "There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency. They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these respects, because they are not naturally tuned in to people's feelings, and more than likely don't believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for people's feelings. ENTJs, like many types, have difficulty seeing things from outside their own perspective. Unlike other types, ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the ENTJ. The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other people's opinions, as well as the value of being sensitive towards people's feelings. In the absence of this awareness, the ENTJ will be a forceful, intimidating and overbearing individual. This may be a real problem for the ENTJ, who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from others. In their personal world, it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or parents."
The ENTJ doesn't need excusing, it takes control and excuses. (Feelings just get in the way)
September 27 at 6:22pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman "Jesus claimed to be the Son of God all through the gospels, but it's true scholars in the last decade following the historico-critical method have denied that the Son of God claims in the gospels originated with Jesus."
i beIieve that Jesus probabIy used terms such as "I am A son of God" or "we are aII sons of God" and I beIieve this is sensibIe.. And that his words were either twisted to turn him into a more powerfuI entity than he was, or simpIy made up compIeteIy.. Do we have any document signed by Jesus where he states he is the son of God? Or that his mother toId him that she was a virgin? And, that Joseph guy, weII....he was some creepy oId guy that hung out with him. AIso, we have the issue of the erased brother. And how he had no history untiI the age of 30, shortIy before he died. Youid thinq the son of God wouId get a Iot of paparazzi.
i read a catachism book front to back and if there was anything to put me off beIievabiIity of Jesus as THE son of God, it was that, because I couIdn't stop saying "seriousiy?!?" and "WTF?!?" the whoIe way through. Same thing I get with ScientoIogy and Mormonism.
Had he not been murdered by the Jews, we might not even now who he was today.
September 27 at 6:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia bwahahaha - Christianity as a historical accident of missing the indefinite article. Good one John Ashman
September 27 at 6:24pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Ashman, what was your childhood like, how did you develop your beliefs?
September 27 at 6:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Jefferson's religion --> American[ist] scalping jihadism
September 27 at 6:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I thought Hebrew was missing all vowels, so that makes sense.
September 27 at 6:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Aramaic has articles
September 27 at 6:26pm · Like
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Liz Neill Ash man, WTFudge??
September 27 at 6:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (actually I don't know I'm just stirring the pot)
September 27 at 6:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman i have a marxist father, but was Ieft to deveIop my own beIiefs, much to his chagrin.
September 27 at 6:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia a lot of paparazzi? How about 5000 people at a sermon. How about centurions seeking him out? Pilate interviewing him?
I think, John Ashman, that you read as well as you believe
September 27 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Aiso, in his time, being gay was punishabIe by death, so as a man at 30, singIe, with no famiIy, who hung out with other singIe men who bathed together in the river....weIi.....
September 27 at 6:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm interested, how did you develop them? Did you have any mAjor life challenges during formative years that lead to everything being absolutely relative with no objective reality. (And how does science fit that reality)
September 27 at 6:28pm · Like
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John Ashman MichaeI, isn't that aII from his oId age?
September 27 at 6:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John Ashman, you're a fool
September 27 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I thought you were fooI hardy.
September 27 at 6:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia believe what you want, but your opinions are based on a terrible reading of scripture.
September 27 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia as I said before, no one was gay before 1800, it didn't exist
September 27 at 6:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so "being gay" wasn't punishable by anything
September 27 at 6:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill True. It was just acts not a lifestyle.
September 27 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Having sex with another man sure was. That is even in the Oid Testament.
September 27 at 6:30pm · Like
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John Ashman It wasn't a IifestyIe, it wouId have been a deathstyIe.
September 27 at 6:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no one was "gay" didn't exist. Read more carefully
September 27 at 6:30pm · Like
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John Ashman In any case, I beIieve in obgective reaIity within the wiggIe room of science and human error.
September 27 at 6:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's stupid.
September 27 at 6:31pm · Like
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John Ashman Sodomite?
September 27 at 6:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but you're kind of solipsistic, so that's to be expected
September 27 at 6:32pm · Like
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John Ashman It was more accepted in Greece and even moreso in other cuItures. Egypt for another.
September 27 at 6:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia have you ever considered "the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics"?
September 27 at 6:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia in Greece it wasn't "accepted" in the sense of now. the acts were tolerated, mostly in the sense of pederasty, but it was not done exclusively, but also in conjunction with having a woman as well
September 27 at 6:34pm · Like
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John Ashman If I were soIipsistic, I wouIdn't bother engaging you. NaturaI rights sort of ends that.
September 27 at 6:34pm · Like
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Liz Neill Gay? But Jesus was married to Mary magdalen and had a secret "love child" I believe I am a direct descendent, thank you very much. #sarcasm.
September 27 at 6:35pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia your views on "belief" are clearly solipsistic
September 27 at 6:35pm · Like
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Jeff Neill That's why my slide ruler can calculate log and equant.
September 27 at 6:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John Ashman, you don't engage, you assert
September 27 at 6:36pm · Like
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John Ashman So you're seriousIy saying that no one was homosexuai before 1800, that it simpIy...popped into existence???
September 27 at 6:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia pretty much. studies on it have been done
September 27 at 6:37pm · Like
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John Ashman That's....amazing.
September 27 at 6:37pm · Like
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John Ashman Iy stupid.
September 27 at 6:37pm · Like
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John Ashman but whatever.
September 27 at 6:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dumbass, the word "homosexual" is from the 1880s
September 27 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman It wouId be siIIy to even bother the argument.
September 27 at 6:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The one side debate is looking like the days of pb.
September 27 at 6:38pm · Like
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John Ashman Sigh.
September 27 at 6:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia first use in English: 1892
September 27 at 6:39pm · Like
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John Ashman I reaIIy thinq this may be the stupidest thing I've ever seen in print on the internet.
September 27 at 6:42pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [Peterson is trolling Medaille now. The truth of the matter is subtle I think.]
September 27 at 7:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you reading your own comments? I agree
September 27 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman so, you were born and after having sex with both men and women, you decided that you prefer women.
September 27 at 6:44pm · Like
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John Ashman this is why we need to prevent reIigion from seeping into government. stupid shit gets put into Iaw and peopIe get murdered or imprisoned over it.
September 27 at 6:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Spaceman Bond, of infinite patience, tried to reason with you. I have no such patience
September 27 at 6:45pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ah back to force again
September 27 at 6:45pm · Like
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John Ashman Government has nothing without force.
September 27 at 6:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill My reading of the symposium was different....
September 27 at 6:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you we're talking about government, you were spouting Dan Brown inspired crap about Christianity. But all you've got is force....
September 27 at 6:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Totalitarian governments...maybe
September 27 at 6:47pm · Like
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John Ashman why do our poIice have guns?
September 27 at 6:48pm · Like
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John Ashman To maqe suggestions?
September 27 at 6:48pm · Like
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Jeff Neill As backup
September 27 at 6:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia by Ashman's arguments, all monasteries were gay - because it is all dudes, football teams must be gay, because they are all dudes - and they shower together. The Senate and House were probably all gay because they were all dudes hanging out too
#ashmangaygnosis
September 27 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the only reason to be around anyone, per Ashman, is to fuck
September 27 at 6:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman and when they use the bacqup, what is it caIIed? "the poice _____"
September 27 at 6:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the police gay
September 27 at 6:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Police squad --- good movie.
September 27 at 6:50pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Moustache. That is the correct answer.
September 27 at 6:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Firefighters?
September 27 at 6:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia gay
September 27 at 6:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET with Ashman? - gay. I'm out
September 27 at 6:52pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Gentlemen's clubs?
September 27 at 6:52pm · Like
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John Ashman In the time of Gesus, straight peopIe got married by 15 or so. He was 33, unmarried and had no girIfriend. And was a craftsman which made him a catch.
September 27 at 6:52pm · Like
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John Ashman http://www.theguardian.com/.../apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably
Was Jesus gay? Probably | Paul Oestreicher
Paul Oestreicher: I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply...
THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY PAUL OESTREICHER
September 27 at 6:53pm · Like
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Liz Neill What is your fascination with gay men?
September 27 at 6:54pm · Like
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John Ashman But, see, it wouIdn't bother me at aII if he were, because it's not some sort of eviI pIot to destroy the worid.
September 27 at 6:54pm · Like
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John Ashman It's my obsession with the Iacq of Iogic in Christianity.
September 27 at 6:55pm · Like
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John Ashman and why it needs to be far from government.
September 27 at 6:55pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Good thing there are atleast a few women on tNET!
September 27 at 6:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman because of this "non-existent" force government uses every day.
September 27 at 6:55pm · Like
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Liz Neill Lack of logic? Hmm, did you even read the article you posted?
September 27 at 6:58pm · Like
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John Ashman It's more IogicaI than the CathoIic story of immacuIate conception, creepy Geoseph, resurrection and aII the other potpourri of paganism tossed into it.
September 27 at 6:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The term "Christianity" sadly has been watered down to mean all sorts of belief structures which includes every crAzy Combination of fact and fiction.
Like larry Niven's "third church of Jesus Christ, cosmonaut"
September 27 at 7:02pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman It's the whoIe "but...the 2nd Amendment didn't mean Christianity" thing. It especiaIIy meant Christianity.
September 27 at 7:00pm · Like
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Liz Neill We all know Jesus was an alien, beamed down from the heavens, and spent the last 3 years teaching the disciples how to make crop circles. There is my op piece for the day.
September 27 at 7:01pm · Like
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John Ashman IncIuding the originaI crazy combination of fact and fiction from the Popes. And I can thinq of no better proof of there being no God than the survivaI of many of Popes during the middie ages when God wouId have caIIed these bastards home for a discussion before sending them on to heII.
September 27 at 7:02pm · Like
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John Ashman Iiz, that actuaIIy sounds reIativeIy normaI by comparison. It at Ieast acqnowiedges technoIogy and science.
September 27 at 7:03pm · Like
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John Ashman BUt it's cooI because "it's those Mormons and scientoIogists and MusIims that are nuts, not US! Because we have TRUTH on our side".
September 27 at 7:06pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Ashman, do you believe in philosophy?
September 27 at 7:07pm · Like
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John Ashman I beIieve in phiIosophy as a way of getting your thinqing started. I don't beIieve in it as a iifestyIe or career path. there is too much action required. One doesn't remain in boot camp forever, you train, and you go to battIe.
September 27 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I'm not a school teacher, but believe that structured learning is better than unstructured
September 27 at 7:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Would you agree?
September 27 at 7:10pm · Like
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John Ashman Perhaps. OnIy when properIy done, as a guide, not as a Iecture.
September 27 at 7:11pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So how can you guide me to what you know? How did you come to your beliefs?
September 27 at 7:12pm · Like
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John Ashman Reading hitting up against hard, coId reaIity. It pushed me bacq into Iocqe and naturaI rights. but reIigion aIways seemed of no vaIue to me. except that I Iiqe certain aspects of cathoIicism, the focus on responsibiIity, atonement, apoIogy. Important factors for a heaithy Iife.
September 27 at 7:15pm · Like
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John Ashman I'd rather caII my seif a christian for the most part. I do beIieve in Gesus as a reaI and important phiIosopher. And a Geffersonian.
September 27 at 7:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm a cold hard reality person. What next?
September 27 at 7:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am glad I missed some debates here (like the apparent argument with the Troll over the dogma that "the sacrament of baptism is necessary, absolutely, as a necessity of means for salvation"... no offense to Mr. Langley, but your answers were not very good considering that quote is dogma....reconciling baptism of desire/blood with it is possible, of course-though the denial of those are not heresy, since they are only sententia fidei proxima).
And I guess I should be thankful that I cannot see this Ashman fellow...have no idea who that is
September 27 at 7:18pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman I don't now. You seem to be in deniai about force.
September 27 at 7:19pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I was a cop.
September 27 at 7:21pm · Like
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John Ashman So, you never forced anyone to do anything, under impIied or express threat?
September 27 at 7:22pm · Like
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Jeff Neill That is not the best way to act, since you'll just make the job harder
September 27 at 7:23pm · Like
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Liz Neill Have you? I bet you have!!!! Think long and hard.
September 27 at 7:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, actual Molinism is not semi-pelagian, it is determinist in fact The Molinism of 99% of those who call themselves Molinists is semi-pelagian
The problem is people feel they need to take a camp when first introduced to the idea of predestination. It is a mixture of curiosity and pride (as if a complex theological debate would be decided upon based on the skewed and inaccurate articles of the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia). For his failings, Fr. Most at least understood Molinism fairly well, and unfortunately did not understand Thomism, though he claims to have once been one. I will post a bit after I restart my browser...FB does have some crappy scripts and glitches posting on the wall with TNET....
September 27 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman i don't deny the existence of force.
September 27 at 7:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What is force?
September 27 at 7:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill A thought? An idea?
September 27 at 7:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Was it "real"
September 27 at 7:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Unless you actively need to wrestle or "apply force" is there anything there?
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ashman coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.
"they ruled by law and not by force"
synonyms: coercion, compulsion, constraint, duress, oppression, harassment, intimidation, threats;
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But that isn't real
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ashman If you have a gun, yes there is.
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ashman Of course it is.
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ashman Cops shoot peopIe every day in america.
September 27 at 7:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No a lever and a fulcrum are not real unless actively used as a lever and fulcrum... The rest of the time they are potential
September 27 at 7:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I never did.
September 27 at 7:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Your idea of force is not a real thing just your solipsistical idea of reality.
September 27 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Because the force exists as coercion. The person understands what wiII happen if they disobey.
September 27 at 7:28pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz While I dig up some of my old writings on Molinism, I will leave you with this: Why is Scotus, who held so many things we now consider heretical, a doctor of the Church, when he isn't even a saint? Heck why do people feel justified claiming the IC against Aquinas, as a dismissive of him, when Scotus's positions on the sacraments, justification, orders, etc are all either heretical or theologically erroneous?
September 27 at 7:28pm · Like
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John Ashman if someone disobeys, increasing IeveIs of force are used, are they not?
September 27 at 7:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No they have ideas but they aren't real.
September 27 at 7:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Handcuffs are force. TacqIing someone is force. Tasers are force.
September 27 at 7:29pm · Like
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John Ashman so cops never beat or shoot anyone?
September 27 at 7:29pm · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--first, note that of course Jefferson is more of a christian than Aristotle, I never argued that he wasn't, just that their ideas of "god" were very dissimilar. Second, even a watchmaker may "preserve," that doesn't get one to the natural knowledge of God himself. Third, as to the idea that Jefferson's idea of God was closer than Aristotle's to the Christian God (since you raise that question) note that Jefferson thought Christ was a "great moral teacher" thus clearly, though implicitly, denying that Christ was God.
September 27 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman Notice, Geff, that "threat of vioIence" is defined as force. And that was your Iever. Period. If it weren't, peopIe wouId wouId ignore you.
September 27 at 7:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Handcuffs restrain..... But I can tell this is not your area of expertise..... You have non-real ideas of forces not applied.
September 27 at 7:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Tell me something real.
September 27 at 7:31pm · Like
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John Ashman Did you read the definition?
September 27 at 7:32pm · Like
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Joel HF The knowledge that the universe had a beginning has very little connection to the sort of God Aristotle and Jefferson envisioned. Actually, scratch that, to the extant that Jefferson's idea of God requires the universe to have a beginning, he is that much different than Aristotle. Which, once again, was my point. Which one was more "christian" is irrelevant to me, as neither was a Christian in any real sense of the world.
September 27 at 7:32pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill So... It is a quote is it real?
September 27 at 7:32pm · Like
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John Ashman If it impIied, it is reaI. If it is threatened, it is reaI.
Yours is a serious IeveI of deniaI, truIy.
September 27 at 7:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--Scotus may be a medieval doctor, but he isn't a "doctor of the church" is he?
September 27 at 7:33pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman again, cops qiII peopIe every day and beat many more every day. It is absoIuteIy reaI.
September 27 at 7:34pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Having the tools to build a house and building a house are different.
September 27 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Uniess you are saying there is no consequence for not obeying.
September 27 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Note that the small amount of substance that John Ashman offers for his trollish arguments about Jesus are identical with the assumptions of the modern "scholars" or the Bible. Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jewish men got married, so since Jesus didn't get married he must have been gay.
September 27 at 7:34pm · Like
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John Ashman it's deeper than that samantha.
September 27 at 7:35pm · Like
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John Ashman i aIso beIieve it for many other reasons, not oniy that.
September 27 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Though I doubt John Ashman knows anything about historical-critical scholarship, just bad pop-historical journalism
September 27 at 7:35pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Ashman, have you been beaten?
September 27 at 7:35pm · Like
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John Ashman and I'm aIIowed to beIieve it.
September 27 at 7:35pm · Like
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John Ashman PeronaIIy, no. I now peopIe who were.
September 27 at 7:36pm · Like
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John Ashman if you don't use force then Ieave your gun, you don't need it.
September 27 at 7:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But it never happened to you? So it isn't real to you.
September 27 at 7:37pm · Like
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John Ashman sure it is, because I now it can happen to me and wiII if I refuse to obey.
September 27 at 7:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Catherine, INTJs are a fine type to be, though I very much doubt you are actually an I
September 27 at 7:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So things can be real that you have not directly experienced?
September 27 at 7:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But force, until applied, is just a concept which you believe to be real.
September 27 at 7:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What of ethics and morality? Are they concepts as well that can be realized in act?
September 27 at 7:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF you are right....he was only, bizarrely, beatified in 1993...
September 27 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Linking to the guardian as a credible source makes me laugh... I should submit my "Jesus was an alien theory".
September 27 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz First any not heretical version of Molinism must affirm one simple reality. Total predestination is prior to foreseen sins. Anyone who says otherwise is a heretic.
1. Molina's view was, as best can be determined, God sees in His scientia media (middle knowledge- between knowledge of necessary things, 2+2=4, and free choices, such as God's choice to create) the possible future contingents, He elects say Peter to grace and consequently chooses the world in which Peter consents. Based on his consent, God then predestines him to heaven. Some Molinists (not Congruists) hold that God first elects Peter to glory (unconditional election) and then the rest.
Some congruists argue, rather convincingly, that he was heading in a more Congruist direction. But I will leave that alone as controvertible.
2. Congruism differs in that God chooses the grace congruous or fitting to the foreseen circumstances, and in choosing the grace effects His election. Most Congruists would hold that God first predestines Peter to heaven, then foresees possible future contingents, then chooses the grace congruous to his consent, and so on. Whereas in the case of the reprobate, He may give grace, and the grace is truly sufficient, but He knows that cooperation will not be given
3. Later versions of Molinism moved away from the principle of predefinition of graces. Though condemned and forbidden by Jesuits in the 17th century, this has yet to have any judgment of the Church rendered to it. The predominant version is that God sees possible future contingencies. In each some are consent, some do not. By choosing which one to actualize, He effectively predestines some to grace and reprobates others, not based on any predilection or intrinsic determination of grace. Based on the foreseen consent He then predestines them to heaven.
There are variations, such as trans-damnationism (which is, frankly, untenable, as it is essentially a denial of any election, and makes it so that the reprobate are impossible for God to have saved)
It must be kept in mind though, that whatever theory is chosen that the first grace and final perseverance remain unmerited, and that predestination in its totality is unmerited. The conditional Molinist position is that predestination to glory is based on foreseen merits, but still it remains that predestination taken as including both grace and glory is unmerited, since any merits come as gifts from God's grace anyways. In this way Molinism avoids semi-pelagianism and circular reasoning. Further, Molinism as approved in the Jesuit order, affirms that grace is efficacious in actu primo
See whether or not election to glory to based on foreseen merits or not, is actually a triviality. It is neither fundamental to the Molinist understanding nor its difference with Thomism, seeing as predestination taken in its totality is unconditional in any orthodox system.
The fundamental difference between plain Molinists and those that are Congruists is this, that the divine decree prearranges the consent given to the grace via God's will about X circumstances, in the Congruist system, whereas those who are not Congruists hold that the divine decree prearranges the grace which is seen in the scientia media to be efficacious.
In either interpretation of Molina we have God seeing possible futures, and choosing that cooperation will happen and arranging it, either in the circumstances (congruism) or the grace itself (Molinism).
The vast majority of Molinists hold that, even prior to God's foreknowledge, efficacious grace is already infallibly going to produce the salutary act. The difference between Thomism and Molinism is not the infallibility of this, but how the efficacy of grace is actually ensure. The ontological difference of sufficient and efficacious grace in the Thomist system exists because of the much older Augustinian distinction between grace which enables and grace which moves the will. In the Molinistic system, the grace itself does not have any intrinsic determining motion to it. Still there remains an infallible connection, in that God chooses, prior to the free determination of the will, that this grace will be efficacious
So God says, this grace will be efficacious. He then (to use crude language) consults His scientia media, and foresees under what circumstances and/or with what grace consent will be given, and He chooses to actualize those circumstances and/or that grace. Or, if the man is passed over, He does not actualize said circumstances/grace, though He still grants a grace truly and intrinsically sufficient. He just chose not to actualize the contingency or possible reality wherein the man consents.
There is a small minority of Molinists who have held that grace is not efficacious this way (called in actu primo and the predefinition of grace), but rather that God sends various graces and foresees the actual consent and bases His predestination to glory on that. So we do not have any predilection, nor congruous grace, etc. This sounds more like what you were holding and I was not aware of its existence as a deviation from Molina (who most certainly did not hold this). Probably a small minority as Jesuits were ordered not to teach it. From the little I have gathered from my source (Fr. Gonzalez S.J, De Gratia) there is more to it, but he makes only passing remarks. He does say something about choosing different orders (or possible world's if you like) for reprobation. Basically boils down to, in any number of various orders some will be damned. God chooses among which orders to actualize, and in so doing chooses the elect and the reprobate, but not by any special predilection for this man over that. There is even a version called trans-damnationism
September 27 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: at the time, he told me the "I/E" was the closest split (ie, I was only slightly more I than E). But I think I am more of a confirmed introvert as I get older. (NB that being talkative in certain situations does not necessarily make you an extrovert.) Anyways, that's not the part of the INTJ description that seems off to me. More the parts about being super driven and not procrastinating, etc
September 27 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- the assumptions of the method make it possible for them to make claims that are supposedly based on "scholarship" even though they have a total lack of evidence.
September 27 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The Thomist rejection, of course, is that all of this posits that God's scientia media knows what you will do given X or Y, because He knows you all so well and can therefore foresee it. But this is now an effect is known from a necessary cause. One might remember Augustine's take down of that view of divine foreknowledge. He granted Cicero was right, that that denies free will, and then argued that God knows the will because He causes it....he actually sounds almost more Thomist here than Augustinian.
It amazes me that in actual academic treatments, Thomists are usually attacking Molinism as denying free will AND introducing potentiality in God...it is like te worse of both worlds
September 27 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I know being a talker doesn't make you an Extrovert. I called Joel being an Introvert, for instance.
September 27 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And John Ashman, if you actually think that Guardian article is "deeper than that," then I'm concerned for you. The article is a sad exercise in wishful thinking, that's all.
September 27 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Anyways, what weirds me out about the personality types/temperaments thing is that I have met people who are so into it that they act like people are just puzzles, and that all of human interaction is just typing people and figuring out how to game the system.
September 27 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe As I said, it's total pseudo-science. There's a little something to it, that's all. Plus the guessing is fun
September 27 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And I'm three for three on the people I know in real life who I guessed correctly
September 27 at 7:58pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil (Sorry to drag on about the temperaments despite that part of the conversation having long since died down.)
September 27 at 7:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Although I admit I would have guessed you were an ENTJ, Catherine. I used to think I was an Introvert, but then I realized I was just hanging around too many idiots.
September 27 at 7:58pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Yeah, I don't think it's complete garbage, I just think people can become a little obsessive about it.
September 27 at 7:59pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Cohoe, are you familiar with the position, trying to avoid the more stupid consequences of denying Christ's beatific knowledge (such as saying He had Faith), that He was given prophetic knowledge of who He was?
Even when modern scholars agree that certain positions are BS, they seem to presume you can never go back to the old position....I got in trouble at the DSPT for saying that that view was "impossible" because that is inflammatory language...
September 27 at 8:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, I don't quite understand your question, but I think the answer is yes?
September 27 at 8:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There are lots and lots of things you simply can't say as a scholar of the Bible these days, not because they've been disproven, just because they aren't allowed
September 27 at 8:01pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Personality types: just Aristotelian categories applied to personalities. Not science - just a means of organization.
September 27 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I wish I could see that Medaille conversation. Ah well.
September 27 at 8:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman PIease don't try to speaq in traps, especiaIIy very poorIy Iaid ones. Actions and beIiefs are different. MoraIity at the end of a gun is simpIy Iow brow vioIence.
September 27 at 8:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I meant this- some have refused to return to the view that Christ had the beatific vision, but also recognize the absurdity, e.g., of a wholly ignorant Christ or a Christ who only believes in Himself (by faith)
So they posit what they think is a compromise, that Christ knew who He was through infused "prophetic knowledge" Even though this is essentially denying all the claims of the modernist position, and is logically incoherent (as He would still have to have Faith, as no created species can be adequate for knowing the trinity!)
September 27 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What's the motivation for denying Christ had the beatific vision?
September 27 at 8:07pm · Like
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Joel HF John, I don't think your keyboard is really broken.
September 27 at 8:07pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Originally, it went along with the denial of basically everything miraculous about Christ
September 27 at 8:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Now some scholars are trying to use the same broken framework to come to slightly less hollow conclusions
September 27 at 8:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz is right, it can be pretty sad to watch.
September 27 at 8:08pm · Like
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John Ashman GoeI HF - It is, but sometimes I cut and paste the missing Ietters. But your experience in this issue is zero.
September 27 at 8:12pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF I have evidence that you are an idiotic troll and that explains the inconsistently used "hilarious" misspellings just as well as occasional c&p and a broken keyboard.
September 27 at 8:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Guess which geys are missing.
asdfgh_____
See Translation
September 27 at 8:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz This is bizarre....someone who preemptively blocked me maybe? I am almost afraid to ask what he is actually saying
September 27 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jesus was gay, yada yada yada
September 27 at 8:18pm · Like
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John Ashman what's wrong with him being gay? Homophobic much?
September 27 at 8:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh so a blaspheming heretic that I would have to block immediately anyways....or, in person, punch in the face.
September 27 at 8:18pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Government is force, church must be absolutely separated from state, truth is relative, etc.
September 27 at 8:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia pretty much. he's testing my "I do not block" policy
September 27 at 8:19pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman when and where has church and state being integrated caused a good resuIt with a Iow death count?
September 27 at 8:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think ignoring him might be the best policy
September 27 at 8:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz See I block people for my own soul's sake, lest I be tempted to anger
September 27 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Go ahead and try.
September 27 at 8:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have children... so anger is something to be overcome continually. I don't get angry, just a head shake
September 27 at 8:21pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I blocked him for my anger and his dizzying intellect.
September 27 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman historicaIIy, government has put the muscIe and vioIence behind the reIigion and has Ied to hundreds of thousands, even miiions of deaths over a disagreement about who created the universe. Because ironicaIIy, reIigions don't beIieve in Ietting God handIe the gudgment.
September 27 at 8:23pm · Like
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John Ashman And the Founders throrougIy understood this. Even though they were mostIy Christians. especiaIIy because they were and new the historicaI consequences of government and reIigion as one united force.
September 27 at 8:24pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia now Joshua, he's trying further and more extreme statements for a response, since I suggested ignoring his dumb ass
September 27 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman FeeI free, seriousIy. I get more accompIished that way..
September 27 at 8:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wonder if he has a tinfoil hat collection?
September 27 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Yes. And they aII have a picture of a chiId with a moustache on them.
September 27 at 8:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 27 at 8:28pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I think I'll just listen to some tunes, until the wife and 2 kids get home for Rosary call
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeh8Ci4DMwI
Halo Benders - God Don't Make No Junk (Full Album)
dice el tano culiao de Scaruffi (http://www.scaruffi.com/vo...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 27 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz So we can discusses if Scotus was closer to protestantism than he was to how we think of the sacraments and justification?
I am in a Scotus bashing mood today...so Scotus's view that justification is purely a legal reality, and not an actual change in the person, is this connected with his view that God could make rape lawful, because natural law is just whatever God decrees?
How about is view on the Eucharist, of adductionism?
Why is Scotus recommended again?
September 27 at 8:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know. A friend of mine said he was beatified in 1993 because he finally made it out of purgatory
September 27 at 8:38pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Come again, Mr. Kenz? Scotus said what now?
September 27 at 8:42pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia but seriously, it is hard to have a theological discussion with the dulcet sounds of the Halo benders in the background...
September 27 at 8:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe HEY. Dissing pictures of people's children is OFF LIMITS.
September 27 at 8:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe HARD NO.
September 27 at 8:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia HEY! you're breaking the "ignore the worse than Perescott troll" rule
September 27 at 8:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry. I missed that we made that a rule.
September 27 at 8:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, since you're protestant, it was only a suggestion...
September 27 at 8:42pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I don't really think of myself as a Protestant, btw. I'm an evangelical.
September 27 at 8:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ugh.... even worse (*hyperbole)
September 27 at 8:42pm · Like
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Joel HF What do you mean by evangelical? (I think it just means Lutheran in Germany.)
September 27 at 8:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 24342
September 27 at 8:46pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz He said you needed perfect contrition to be absolved from sin and that confession, thus, was merely declaratory.
It is funny, many of his views were completely dropped, both by "Scotists" and the many Jesuits who held some of his views (following the eclecticism of Suarez), and were considered dead until the 1960's...I think the adoption of some is just a mark of intellectual rebellion (such as the materiality of the soul)
There are a whole host of propositions from Scotus that, if they were said after Trent, would have been formally condemned. Some are strangely protestant sounding (at least his views on justification match the Catholic understanding of what most protestants hold...not how I phrased that)
But since no one is biting I will get a pizza and beer(we need a real Scotist here... one that holds distinctio formalis or some other dumb idea that was long ago refuted and not held for centuries until contrarianism became a thing)
September 27 at 8:50pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia wife and kids are home. It's Rosary time for me anyhoo....
September 27 at 8:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We should stop at the number 24601
September 27 at 8:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ?
September 27 at 8:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz http://youtu.be/HPIos2mXbUE?t=2m28s
September 27 at 8:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Evangelicals are people who define themselves and their lives and their faith by the good news of the announcement of the kingdom by Jesus of Nazareth.
September 27 at 8:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that's an Os Guiness quote.
September 27 at 8:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know, man. I guess I'm a Protestant, but mainline Protestantism is kind of not the movement my lived Christianity is best described by
September 27 at 8:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I thought it meant people who went to quasi-churches, both mega churches and smaller independent operations, and liked altar calls and hand clapping
September 27 at 8:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't mean mine, idiosyncratically, I mean the churches I go to.
September 27 at 8:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr Kenz, nope.
September 27 at 8:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's a broad movement, for sure, but it's not defined by that stuff
September 27 at 8:58pm · Like
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John Ashman Samantha Cohoe HEY. Dissing pictures of people's children is OFF LIMITS.
....but...but....he has a moustache!
September 27 at 8:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Samantha resist the urge
September 27 at 9:00pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier May the Evangelicals, and the Orthodox, and all who claim the name of Christ, be One. Amen.
September 27 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe so... hard...
September 27 at 9:00pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Bless you, Samantha.
September 27 at 9:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe thanks, Mr. Richard Delahide Ferrier
September 27 at 9:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe singing hymns at your house is one of my very best TAC memories
September 27 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was always very sad I never got to have you as a tutor.
September 27 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier We are doing it tomorrow!
September 27 at 9:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia funny that, my favorite TAC memory is studying Heidegger at casa Ferrier
September 27 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm suddenly seized with the hope that Mr. Ferrier hasn't been following tNET *too* closely...
September 27 at 9:03pm · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier rest assured.
September 27 at 9:04pm · Like · 3
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Richard Delahide Ferrier For now, I watch it to admire the good sense and large learning of Matthew J. Peterson
September 27 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and his patience to step back....
September 27 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Michael Beitia; I think that if anyone has no sympathy with Heidegger, that person is defective. I think the same about Lincoln, and even Madison.
September 27 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe favorite Ferrier quote about Nietzsche "What a waste of greatness! And yet, not totally a waste."
September 27 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Did I really say that?
September 27 at 9:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe overheard after some extracurricular seminar, or lecture, or something.
September 27 at 9:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh yes. I have a very good memory.
September 27 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Bless me fr Beitia, for I have sinned, I fell to temptation and fed trolls, in particular denying their arguments of metaphysical forces. Damn the man. Amen.
(Edit: Sam, "the man" is not a person. "
September 27 at 9:27pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Let's not damn people, especially after Mr. Ferrier showed up.
September 27 at 9:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe John Ashman just hasn't ever met anyone able to point out the obvious contradictions inherent in his position before.
September 27 at 9:15pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Samantha, much like you, whenever someone I respect a lot pops into TNET, I am suddenly brought back to the dark reality that there are many people lingering in the shadows of TNET, and I suddenly get very self-conscious about what I have posted. Luckily, I read more than I post here...
September 27 at 9:19pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe One time Mr. Dragoo liked something I said, and I panicked for a while.
September 27 at 9:20pm · Unlike · 4
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Jeff Neill Lol... When you graduated with Brian it is a bit less intimidating.
September 27 at 9:21pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe For the record, I'm a lovely person in real life.
September 27 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Also, Matthew J. Peterson, I object to the placement of the modernist acronym ("tNET") in the official heading of TNET.
September 27 at 9:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Samantha, I'm simpIy waiting for someone to point to them. The Iast severaI attempts required word swapping and straw man buIding. I want to maqe sure aII you you wiII be in church tomorrow, because I wiII be.
September 27 at 9:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't follow super closely, but I'm pretty sure Dr. Spaceman and a couple others did a solid job dismantling your "arguments."
September 27 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman No, not reaIIy. It was pretty pathetic, actuaIIy. Word parsing, goaI shifting, strawmen. It was a potpourri of IogicaI faIIacy.
September 27 at 9:39pm · Like
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John Ashman Dr Ferrier apparentIy beIieves I'm defective, because aIthough I have nothing but respect for Madison, I have zero sympathy for Iincoin. The man caused the greatest hoIocaust in American history for one reason. Pride.
September 27 at 9:42pm · Like
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John Ashman And Nietzsche, for aII his 'errors', maqes you thinq.
September 27 at 9:45pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Sorry you feel that way. But as a majority rule situation, you'd be outvoted. (Regarding the civil war)
September 27 at 9:45pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman The magority has never been famousIy correct about the nature of things.
September 27 at 9:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yet here we are.
Purchase a tombstone that says "I'm going to prove myself right".
September 27 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Fighting to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one man's pride.
September 27 at 9:49pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I always did like Pascal's Wager.
Poor motivates but good game theory.
September 27 at 9:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's pretty good motivation, myself
September 27 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Sean, that is my convention, per the suggestion of Pater. tis not heretical, but a latent understanding that the definite article does not deserve a capital letter in the acronym.
September 27 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Why? There was absoIuteIy nothing sancrosanct about it.
i assume you beIieve that if a woman wants a divorce from an abusive husband, that he has the right to beat her or even murder her because the marriage is more important than freedom.
September 27 at 9:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Never mind, I don't want to talk to you about this.
September 27 at 9:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Mr Dragoo, though older, was a year behind me in classes at TAC. I still find it odd that he's a tutor, not because he isn't deserving, but because it makes me feel old...
September 27 at 9:54pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You are old. I'm old, and you are older, QED
September 27 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman "Purchase a tombstone that says "I'm going to prove myself right"."
that wouId be exceIIent on IincoIn's tomb.
September 27 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but today is Brian Dragoo's birthday!
he's the oldest!
September 27 at 9:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe “At thirty one’s beginning to age, and one’s got to squeeze all one can out of life.” Camus, The Plague (tr. S. Gilbert).
September 27 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe 06ers are all turning 30.
September 27 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I love Camus. anyone want to take a pot shot at that!?
September 27 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the Rebel is fantastic
September 27 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman "Never mind, I don't want to talk to you about this."
i wouIdn't expect it. That was a checqmate.
September 27 at 9:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ha you would
September 27 at 9:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course..... St. Augustine, however, says that 33 is the perfect age. I found that to be true.... so far
September 27 at 9:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's something to look forward to I suppose
September 27 at 9:59pm · Like
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Joel HF Nice quote.
September 27 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe haha, I should have given you credit Joel. sorry
September 27 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, ending slavery>>>preserving union
September 27 at 10:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sure, but for the people who embarked on the war, preserving the union was the real motivator
September 27 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe absurd to reduce the desire to preserve the Union to the pride of one person. New troll knows history like he knows theology.
September 27 at 10:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Jeff, you mentioned game theory. What do you make of the Prisoner's dilemma?
September 27 at 10:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill A violent end to slavery was justified and fitting.
September 27 at 10:04pm · Like
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John Ashman I aIways have thought that friendship shouId be maintained at the end of a gun. It's that important.
September 27 at 10:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dude, you are arguing against a position no one has put forward.
September 27 at 10:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia troll feeder
September 27 at 10:12pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe sorry, sorry
September 27 at 10:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe who is that guy, anyway? I thought he was your friend
September 27 at 10:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I know it's tempting, but realize that everything that's typed is just fodder
September 27 at 10:14pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia NOT MINE
September 27 at 10:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we have butted heads before. I accused him of being an idiot libertarian
September 27 at 10:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh yeah, he was the tea party guy. it's starting to come together a bit.
September 27 at 10:15pm · Like
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John Ashman Samantha - "Fighting to preserve the Union was much bigger than any one man's pride."
i assume this to mean that the ends gustified the means, but I apoIogize if you were against the invasion of the South.
September 27 at 10:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes, it is a sad state of trolling, but much easier to ignore that Scott. I "gust" don't think he gets it
September 27 at 10:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I do prefer my trolls to be a bit less cliche.
September 27 at 10:17pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Dear Perescott, for all his faults, is not a typical example of anything
September 27 at 10:17pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia well, other than the typical can't think straight without #Specialgnosis
September 27 at 10:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe even his not-thinking-straight is in a special, idiosyncratic way.
September 27 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it's poetic. but bad poetry, like Donne....
September 27 at 10:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe it must be sad to have such a shriveled, modern soul.
September 27 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill To answer last night's question, my children do not know of episodes 1-3, Or just that they were not worth watching.
September 27 at 10:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how old is your oldest, Jeffie?
September 27 at 10:27pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Star Wars? You guys didn't find anyone to defend 1-3, did you?
September 27 at 10:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope
September 27 at 10:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Good. tNET can be crazy, but not *that* crazy
September 27 at 10:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill 9, 7.8, 5.5 and 1.9
September 27 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Star Wars is weird for me, personally. the first movie I saw in a theater was "Return of the Jedi" but I'm too young to have seen the other two there. I saw episode 1 when it came out because I was dragged there.
September 27 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm too "inbetween" with Star Wars
September 27 at 10:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't have a full basketball team
September 27 at 10:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I do, and my oldest will be 13 very very soon
September 27 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Nicely done.
September 27 at 10:30pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia consequently, they've seen them, but I haven't... unless you count playing Lego Star Wars, the complete saga on Wii, which I beat
September 27 at 10:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but since I have raised them to be hypercritical of everything.... well, there you have it
September 27 at 10:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill My kids know them through angry birds Star Wars...
September 27 at 10:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe CALEB'S HOME BYE
September 27 at 10:32pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Who is an idiot libertarian?
September 27 at 10:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Haha.
September 27 at 10:32pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Is there another troll I cannot see?
September 27 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I think she's cheating on us. What is a Caleb?
September 27 at 10:33pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Joshua, I can't use his name, but it's the blasphemer that you would have blocked at any rate...
September 27 at 10:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but to be realistic, all libertarians are idiots....
September 27 at 10:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it's kind of redundant
September 27 at 10:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That is certainly true enough, on both modern and etymological senses
September 27 at 10:35pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't understand them well enough.
September 27 at 10:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's not a defect in you, Jeff
September 27 at 10:36pm · Like
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John Ashman Iibertarians have the highest IQ of any poIiticaI ideoIogy. In fact, a recent study puts us in with conservatives and admits we are the one that keep you in the game with IibruIs.
September 27 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Joshua, at least has an easy time at catch up with Jeff, Scott and Ashman all blocked.
September 27 at 10:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you live in Cali, right Joshua?
September 27 at 10:39pm · Like
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John Ashman A Iibertarian is essentiaIIy someone who agrees point for point with Thomas Gefferson phiIosophicaIIy or with Iocke, I beIieve, minus the variation in reIigious beIiefs, as there is no set Iibertarian stance on God or Gesus.
September 27 at 10:40pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Josh blocked me as well
September 27 at 10:39pm · Like
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John Ashman The even more amusing thing to us about the "Iibertarains are idiots" duIIardry is that every time a study is done by IiberaIs, they try to Iump us in with them and everytime conservatives do one, they try to Iump us in with them too. It's great to be the first picked for the team.
Both of the teams hate us, yet both desperateIy want us on the team come IQ measuring time.
September 27 at 10:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger do you see his posts, Jeff?
September 27 at 10:49pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia John! you're back. Haven't seen you in awhile. How's it going?
September 27 at 10:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Yes
September 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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John Ashman You're weIcome [smiIey face]
September 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I never saw Ashman! So never had the opportunity to block him
September 27 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how do you feel about the gun laws of California?
September 27 at 10:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz They are written by absolute morons, for the most part. The few that aren't moronic in se, such as the handgun safety certificate, are only there as stepping stones toward something moronic (explanation: of the 14 states requiring a permit to BUY a handgun, California is the easiest...easier than Nebraska, North Carolina....the certificate is given by the gun dealer there and then, and is good for 5 years...whereas you have to go to the courthouse in Nebraska or the police in North Carolina, unless you have a CCW...so don't believe it when people say California requires classes before buying or other things like that...they don't. I don't mind the HSC as it stands [it was better, perhaps, when it was lifetime] since even a cracked addled bonobo can pass the safety test for one...it really is a very basic quiz on common sense.
But things like the roster or the different definition of an short barrelled shotgun (because so many crimes were commit with the Circuit Judge/sarc), or the banning of .50 BMG, except for M2s which you can totally own. The granting of licenses for real machine guns to those tangentially related to the movie biz, even though they don't need them, but denying them to Class 3 holders....lots of it makes no sense, even from a pro-gun control perspective. Heck have a CA CCW? Feel free to carry in bars and schools, which you cannot in say Arizona or Texas...but make it capricious to get one. In one country having hunters safety training might suffice, in other (Los Angeles) you have to be a donor to the sheriff or live in El Monte (police chief there grants them, under fairly strict standards but not capricious for once) .
Anyhow, California is not as anti-gun as portrayed...it is more gun-schizo. The same legislature that passed mircostamping also actually passed CCW reform that made it easier to carry (though most sheriffs ignore the law) The same legislature that tried passing ammo permit requirements and banning mail order (struck down by CA courts), passed an NRA backed bill outlawing the taking of guns during a declared emergency
The same state whose US Senators have bemoaned stand your ground in Florida, has had stand your ground since forever...we have never not had it. And in this same state, the law found no fault with te Korean shop owners who fired on black rioters during the Rodney King rioting...because the law justifies even homicide by a civilian in the suppression of a riot or the protection of real property.
You get the picture....kind of schizo
September 27 at 11:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No, my wife and I are both blocked by Kenz, we do not see him.
In California the gun laws vary by county. Just a couple months ago they changed the county restrictions in a few counties to allow concealable weapon carry permits with Minimal justification.
September 27 at 11:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ashman, why would a person want to join the libertarian party, why not be independent?
September 27 at 11:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffie, don't do it...
September 27 at 11:04pm · Like
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John Ashman We don't usuaIIy. I have been and forever wiII be a member of no party.
September 27 at 11:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "moronic in se" is my new favorite legal term.
September 27 at 11:05pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman There are many more Iibertarians than there are that beIong to the party. Iibertarianism is a very MOR phiIosophy.
September 27 at 11:15pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm still surprised no one is going to stand with Umberto Eco with me
September 27 at 11:07pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz BTW, all bought in California. Now that the court has struck down the 10 day waiting period (which, btw, was shortened by the liberal CA legislature from 15 days, in the mid 90's as electronic systems allowed faster checks...which again destroys the black and white narrative) the remain CA process may take 5-15 minutes longer than say in Arizona.
Necopma (Ruger SR45), Apsit (Springfield 40 subcompact) and Pia Nona (Ruger Vaquero .357 magnum) Missing are my Ruger 10/22, the Bauer baby brown clone I have, and the Marlin 336C I sold due to being poor but miss terribly.
I am debating, if I ever get ahead financially, buying an AK-47 or an AR-15...yes you can buy those in CA, without special permits are requirement...laws are confusing and complicated...leave it at that But probably neither...I like cowboy guns too much...lever action again I think...
September 27 at 11:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I spent a lot of time as a miscreant growing up shooting both AR-15s and AKs . . . . I think it changes when you have children
September 27 at 11:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "against" do you mean? I have thought about reading Eco but I am depressed enough (melancholic ya know).
September 27 at 11:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not exactly John, more of an ignorance of something I find very interesting
September 27 at 11:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ashman, but why should I follow that belief?
I am not party affiliated, I have worked too long in politically charged industries where joining one party or another was bad for business.
September 27 at 11:16pm · Like
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John Ashman Iibertarianism? Most peopIe don't 'foIiow' exactIy. It's a hard course. You have to be abIe to say "Iet's NOT make a Iaw, Iet's do this ourseives" and "I'm not going to Iet this bother me". But it's very rationaI in the sense that there are no perfect soIutions, so if you're going to choose betwen two soIutions, both imperfect, and one costs nothing, the other costs $biIIons, why choose the expensive one? Mariuana causes a Iot of death, but onIy because it's iIIegaI. More Iaws, more crime, more taxes, more hassIe, Iower productivity, etc, etc. or you can thinq of it from a Iochean point of vew - it's onIy a beiief in naturaI rights and the wiIIingness to foIIow through on them.
September 27 at 11:21pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Perhaps we should look to what moves us, and what we would suffer for. For me, that is, first, Christ and his Holy Church, and next, my beloved American Republic.
September 27 at 11:41pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman This is the nature of Iibertarianism. Each person chooses his battIes and goaIs. I know very many reIigious Iibertarians that view their beIiefs to be personaI and not universaI. For me, it is the Constitution, as the RepubIic has become the enemy of the peopIe.
September 27 at 11:48pm · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Here is a bit of the old time religion for those who have never known it, or, perhaps, forgotten it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m6iT-CX2QQ
Lou Reid and Carolina - It's Hard To Sumble
via YouTube Capture
YOUTUBE.COM
September 27 at 11:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It puzzles me how those two loves go together, Richard Delahide Ferrier. The American Republic has been the engine of the Enlightenment, which can almost be defined in terms of its anti-Catholicism. Locke's hatred for the Church comes immediately to mind.
September 28 at 12:01am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Sadly, she has become so factious and divided . . . . [late again to post]
September 28 at 12:05am · Edited · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I love you, Jeff, and I love America, and I think you are misled by a false idea about this republic. But, you are wonderful about the silly limits of Aristotle, and the wonders of Plato, and Eros.
September 28 at 12:04am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I love you, Richard, and I love the American people, but I cannot love what America stands for. But if I have a false idea concerning America, I am open to hearing it. Do you disagree that America is essentially Locke land?
September 28 at 12:10am · Edited · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I do.
September 28 at 12:10am · Like
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John Ashman Geoff, remember that the CathoIic Church for much of its history was dominated by eviI, poIitics and aII nature of sin and unGodIiness. It is onIy in the Iast 100-150 years that the Church has gone from vicitmizer to victim. i wouid be tortured or kiIIed for my beIiefs today.
September 28 at 12:11am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If not Locke land, then what animates the American regime?
September 28 at 12:12am · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier St. Paul, and the law written on the heart. Plus a healthy rejection of the Old World's trust in Princes.
September 28 at 12:13am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond How is St. Paul at the heart of the American regime?
September 28 at 12:14am · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier And also a moderate trust in Locke and others ... not a dark and deep reading of them, but a common sense interpretation.
September 28 at 12:14am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond One does not need a dark and deep reading of Locke to see the threat to our beloved Church. It is right on the surface.
September 28 at 12:15am · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier You can get my mature sense of these things from here. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_25...
Amazon Search
Amazon.com: declaration statesmanship a course in american government
AMAZON.COM
September 28 at 12:16am · Like
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John Ashman What is the threat? Freedom? IndividuaIity?
September 28 at 12:17am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So many books, so little time. But I will check it out. In the meantime, your claims still puzzle me, especially given your love for Plato.
September 28 at 12:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond But I will not press you if you don't want to be pressed.
September 28 at 12:24am · Like · 1
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Richard Delahide Ferrier You are kind. Let us both try to be moderate! blessings on you and yours. rdf
September 28 at 12:26am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Well, if you insist. But I will press your friend, Matthew J. Peterson, whom I have become very fond of despite our differences.
September 28 at 12:29am · Like · 3
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Richard Delahide Ferrier I reserve the right to intervene. And, I deeply agree with Matthew J. Peterson
September 28 at 12:31am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond So I gathered. Your intervention would always be welcome. Praying for your good health.
September 28 at 12:33am · Like · 2
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Richard Delahide Ferrier Thanks. My kidneys are sort of letting me done at present!
September 28 at 12:34am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante everyone should be fond of Matthew despite his subtle serpentine Straussianism
September 28 at 12:35am · Like · 8
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Jeffrey Bond Did you ever check out that source I recommended? Or is it just too funky?
September 28 at 12:37am · Like
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Richard Delahide Ferrier He follows the decent path of Lincoln, not the crooked ways of some alien intellectual.,
September 28 at 12:37am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Jeffrey Bond, while not big on the founders or the definition of American patriotism as holding an ideology, and in fact while usually being the one yelled at for being anti-American, one thing that strikes me is that one of the myths both about the founders and America is that there is one, single monolithic ideology making up the idea of America.
Locke? Certainly anti-Catholic. Even more so in his private correspondence (there are two versions of the essay on toleration...and one even more supports you contention). But did George Washington share the same sentiments when he banned Guy Fawkes day or wrote the pope back telling him he was free to appoint bishops and that the liberty of the Catholic Church would be safeguarded?
Even Leo XIII, while condemning Americanism, still had much praise for America.
I think it can be too simplistic to assume that the totality of what went into making America is the enlightenment ideals of the founders (even if we take the more radical statements of Madison and Jefferson as representing the group). Maybe it is destined to always be in competition with these ideals, but American society is as much founded on ideals of biblical law and religion/. The separation of Church and state here, e.g., does not look like the secularist regime that even now France or Mexico have...heck Mexico is very anti-Catholic in some of its laws, though for a long while those laws are more or less defunct in enforcement.
September 28 at 12:44am · Like · 7
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Jeffrey Bond Certainly there is not one, single monolithic ideology making up the idea of America. But if America is to be an intelligible thing, it must have a core, and that core, I think, is Lockean. The other traditions that originally mitigated against Lockean ideals, have, in time, been subsumed by it, a proof of sorts that the Lockean ideals were dominate from the beginning. So while others think our woes are due to a departing from the founding, I argue that what we see today is the logical playing out of those principles.
The fact that Catholicism was not openly banned (as Samuel Adams, for example, desired) does make America appear to be better than the communist regimes, for example, that instituted atheism. But the agnostic position of America, and this Leo agrees with, is in fact no better in principle, and the danger is much more subtle. Open persecution has always strengthened the Church. The conversion of American Catholics to Lockean dogmatic tolerance appears to be much more deadly in the long run.
September 28 at 12:56am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But, Joshua, can you say what were the criticisms of Leo XIII were? And this not to criticize the founding but to guard our souls. Even Pink recognizes that they have come to fruition.
September 28 at 12:58am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not sure America is all that intelligible...
September 28 at 1:00am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Well, we have some idea of what we are speaking of, do we not? America has been a force in the world and continues to be so. I think Locke would be very pleased were he among us. Though he would have recommended, as he did to England, that Catholics be treated as they were in Japan. On second thought, the conversion of American Catholics to his way of thinking would have made it unnecessary to push them into sulfur pits.
September 28 at 1:05am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Here's my man Leo XIII on 'Merica and George Washington:
"Nor, perchance did the fact which We now recall take place without some design of divine Providence. Precisely at the epoch when the American colonies, having, with Catholic aid, achieved liberty and independence, coalesced into a constitutional Republic the ecclesiastical hierarchy was happily established amongst you; and at the very time when the popular suffrage placed the great Washington at the helm of the Republic, the first bishop was set by apostolic authority over the American Church. The well-known friendship and familiar intercourse which subsisted between these two men seems to be an evidence that the United States ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church. And not without cause; for without morality the State cannot endure-a truth which that illustrious citizen of yours, whom We have just mentioned, with a keenness of insight worthy of his genius and statesmanship perceived and proclaimed. But the best and strongest support of morality is religion.”
Referring to what Washington said in his farewell address, with the help of Hamilton. And by the end of his life, I think Hamilton believed it.
September 28 at 1:44am · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, the U.S. "ought to be conjoined in concord and amity with the Catholic Church." Leo is prescribing, not describing, and obviously hoping to make the best of it. But when it comes to his analysis of the principles (apart from the people), it is clear Leo has grave doubts whether America became what it OUGHT to have become.
September 28 at 1:13am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Leo is referring to Washington's Farewell address when he said this:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?
Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened."
September 28 at 1:15am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond See Leo's Au Milieu des Sollicitudes, paragraph 28, where he speaks of the situation when, "by a fortunate inconsistency, the legislator is inspired by Christian principles--and, though these advantages cannot justify the false principle of separation nor authorize its defence, they nevertheless render worthy of toleration a situation which, practically, might be worse."
The state is obliged to hold up religion and the moral law not by accident, but by intention. Toleration, for Leo, involves putting up with something that is bad in order to avoid what is worse. Let's not forget, then, that Leo thinks separation of Church and state, as America understands it, is bad.
September 28 at 1:32am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Matthew, I see that Leo praises the protection of the Catholic Church, not praise for Washington's speach which would be at discord with what he says elsewhere.
September 28 at 1:26am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger He praises the amity and concord of prelate and president. Leo thinks it providential that the see is established at that hour.
September 28 at 1:41am · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond In Immortale Dei Leo says this about the view that the state does not have any kind of duty toward God: "Moreover, it believes that it is not obliged to make public profession of any religion; or to inquire which of the very many religions is the only one true; or to prefer one religion to all the rest; or to show to any form of religion special favor; but, on the contrary, is bound to grant equal rights to every creed, so that public order may not be disturbed by an particular form of religious belief."
"26. And it is a part of this theory that all questions that concern religion are to be referred to private judgment; that every one is to be free to follow whatever religion he prefers, or none at all if he disapprove of all. From this the following consequences logically flow: that the judgment of each one's conscience is independent of all law; that the most unrestrained opinions may be openly expressed as to the practice or omission of divine worship; and that every one has unbounded license to think whatever he chooses and to publish abroad whatever he thinks."
"27. Now, when the State rests on foundations like those just named--and for the time being they are greatly in favor--it readily appears into what and how unrightful a position the Church is driven."
September 28 at 1:38am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Bwhahaha - John Ruplinger - you can at least admit that in the passage I cite from Longinqua Leo is, in fact, clearly referring to Washington's Farewell Address.
September 28 at 1:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Maybe my issue is more with seeing the idea of America as defined by a set of ideals or ideology as if that is the essential and a priori principle that makes America to be a thing, to be a nation. I do think there is an American ideology of sorts, I just think that part of the mythology of that ideology is that it is ideology that binds people together in a society.
September 28 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Fond of you too Jeffrey Bond. Much love going around tonight on the tNET.
September 28 at 1:46am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I had fine tequila tonight, but its effect was clarifying.
September 28 at 1:47am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think that notion is right out of Aristotle, Joshua. The purpose of the regime, what it stands for--its vision of justice and the good life--are what make the regime a regime. A comic and a tragic chorus, he explains, are different even though the population and the territory they occupy are the same. So too we know when a regime has changed when its purpose changes, quite apart from the material causes that make it up.
September 28 at 1:47am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Remember the old adage, Matthew: drink while debating legislation, but delay the vote until the morning. Does that marvelous story come from Herodotus?
September 28 at 1:51am · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond TNET is getting to be a love fest. Almost like Woodstock: If you are tired to chew, man, pass it on.
September 28 at 1:52am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm pretty sure it does, Jeffrey: about how the Persians would debate treaties and business dealings while drunk and "sign" them sober.
September 28 at 1:53am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Ah, those Persians. What would the world have looked like now had there been no Marathon, Thermopylae, Salamis or Alexander the Great?
September 28 at 1:54am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Leo XIII was certainly not approving of the American system simpliciter. And America does not meet the ideals of a state as the Church sees it, e.g. the submission to Christ by society as society. But he certainly praises positive aspects, and we should concede to Matthew J. Peterson that one example of that praise is Leo's quoting with approval Washington's farewell address
Maybe we could say that American has been like an adolescent very sure of its ideas and sense of self, but not yet possessing such with full maturity. The conflicts seen within the American framework may be a sign of this.
Orestes Brownson once said
"Among nations, no one has more need of full knowledge of itself than the United States, and no one has hitherto had less. It has hardly had a distinct consciousness of its own national existence, and has lived the irreflective life of the child, with no severe trial, till the recent rebellion, to throw it back on itself and compel it to reflect on its own constitution, its own separate existence, individuality, tendencies, and end...
Its idea is liberty, indeed, but liberty with law, and law with liberty. Yet its mission is not so much the realization of liberty as the realization of the true idea of the state, which secures at once the authority of the public and the freedom of the individual—the sovereignty of the people without social despotism, and individual freedom without anarchy."
Maybe part of really attaining that mission would be to purge enlightenment ideals, and the conflicts in America have been because of the opposition of those ideas to other principles deeply engrained in America...and maybe the right side is losing the battle....I don't know. Have you read the proceedings of the NRA and their attempt at a Christian amendment? Maybe that was the direction we needed to go but failed....
September 28 at 1:57am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Actually, I wonder if Leo XIII was aware of the NRA and its attempts to repudiate some aspects of the enlightenment? Including a constitutional recognition of the authority of Christ...though they still aimed at maintaining separation of Church and state
September 28 at 1:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger Fair enough, Matthew.
September 28 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is an interesting text from the De Potentia, apropos of nothing in particular: (the context in the De Potentia is whether unformed matter could have been created prior in time to formed matter and is a kind of commentary on the opening of Genesis; also, I'm only translating the really interesting part: I'll let you puzzle through the rest just to irritate John Boyer):
"But others understood the formlessness of matter not insofar as mater lacked every form, but as something is called unformed which does not yet have its final completion and ornament; and [formless matter] can be posited in this way, that the formlessness of things even precedes the formation of things in time. Which would indeed, if posited, seem fitting to the order of a wise artisan who, while producing things in existence, does not immediately institute them in [their] last perfection after they were nothing; but first makes them in a certain imperfect being and leads them to perfection afterwords."
"Alii vero intellexerunt informitatem materiae non secundum quod materia omni forma caret, sed secundum quod dicitur aliquid informe quod nondum habet ultimum suae naturae complementum et decorem; et secundum hoc potest poni, quod etiam duratione informitas rerum formationem praecesserit. Quod quidem si ponatur, ordini sapientiae artificis congruere videtur, qui res ex nihilo producens in esse, non statim post nihilum in ultima perfectione naturae eas instituit, sed primo fecit eas in quodam esse imperfecto; et postea eas ad perfectum adduxit; ut sic et eorum esse ostenderetur a Deo procedere, contra illos qui ponunt materiam increatam; et nihilominus perfectionis rerum ipse etiam auctor appareret, contra eos qui rerum inferiorum formationem causis alii adscribunt. Et hoc intellexit magnus Basilius, Gregorius, et alii sequaces eorum. Quia ergo neutrum a veritate fidei discordat, et utrumque sensum circumstantia litterae patitur; utrumque sustinentes ad utrasque rationes respondeamus." (QQ De Potentia, q. 4 a. 1 co.
September 28 at 2:00am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond I'll think on it, Joshua. But it is 2:00 a.m. here; and I, not being as youthful as you young bucks, must get to bed. A pleasure as always, gentlemen.
September 28 at 2:01am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley This seems to lend a great deal of support to a Lavalesque view of evolution.
September 28 at 2:01am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, you're use of "NRA" isn't exactly transparent there.
September 28 at 2:02am · Like
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Edward Langley I assume you're talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_amendment
Christian amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian amendment describes any of several attempts to amend the United States Constitution by inserting explicitly Christian ideas and language. The most powerful such attempt began during the American Civil War and was spearheaded by the National Reform Association.
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 28 at 2:03am · Like · Remove Preview
Joshua Kenz NRA = National Reform Association, duh...I doubt the National Rifle Association would promote a Christian amendment
The NRA here had a few supreme court justices supporting it...
September 28 at 2:04am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, I wasn't aware of the National Reform Association until a couple minutes after your post.
September 28 at 2:05am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz The duh was tongue in cheek... Really recommend Craycraft again on religious liberty...he gives some fascinating excerpts from them, including debates on "consent of the governed" and a lot of self-critical reflection on the Constitution, as I said including some by Supreme Court justices
September 28 at 2:08am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm kinda curious what you didn't like about my response about Baptism. If we take it as dogmatically true that no one can be saved without Baptism, it seems that we have to understand "Baptism" to primarily refer to the infusion of sanctifying grace in the formulation of the dogma. Otherwise, it seems like there could be no leeway for belief in things like Baptism of Blood and Desire.
September 28 at 2:21am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: true they fought for union, but as this wonderful little book points out (he has a longer version as well), as the war went on the north especially saw the war as very much about ending slavery:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0807119040/ref=mp_s_a_1_20...
What They Fought for 1861-1865 (Walter Lynwood Fleming Lectures in Southern...
AMAZON.COM
September 28 at 2:19am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The cynical view is that this was on account of Lincoln's rhetoric, but the the non-cynical view incorporates that as well.
September 28 at 2:20am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But the dogma is that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary, as a necessity of means, for salvation. By understanding baptism to mean sanctifying grace, you are not actually affirming the dogma. There is one baptism. And that means the sacrament, not sanctifying grace. It is an example of understanding the dogma of the Church other than how the Church has always understood it.
Your way is less messy, but it has the vice of not upholding the actual dogma as given by the Church. The standard answer wrt to baptismus flaminis or baptism of blood is a bit more involved. Will post a bit more on that in a second
September 28 at 2:22am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, it looks like Baptism of desire is _de fide_ (although, possibly not in the sense you were denying?):
"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism
"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
September 28 at 2:26am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz It is not de fide, but sententia fidei proxima
September 28 at 2:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz But that has nothing to do with my point
September 28 at 2:27am · Like
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Edward Langley What about Trent? "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God"
September 28 at 2:28am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The sacrament of baptism is necessary by a necessity of means for salvation for all men without exception.
But you are raising a tangential point. You can dispute with Pohle/Preuss, Ott, and later decrees of the oly office about calling baptism of desire de fide later
September 28 at 2:29am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund Samantha, thinking Proust overrated is a tell-tale sign of Pelagianism...
September 28 at 2:29am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Also what Myers-Briggs thing is Caleb?
September 28 at 2:29am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, I've been waiting on the "standard answer" you alluded to above and was just confused about the tangential point because of things I read in Ligouri and Trent.
September 28 at 2:32am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Dang, can't plagiarize myself this time.
Okay, think of faith. Faith is necessary as a necessity of means, absolutely and this absolute necessity is intrinsic...at least in respect to actual faith in God and His providence. Even God could not decree otherwise, since it is necessary to be ordered to God as a final end to be saved, and hence one must know his final end, etc.
Baptism, by which I mean the sacrament, is necessary by means, not just precept. But its necessity is not absolutely intrinsic. What this amounts to is that the sacrament is the only means we can avail of for salvation. And ignorance, even if inculpable, e.g. does nothing other than excuse one from its necessity as a necessity of precept.
Still, since the necessity is not intrinsic, God can supply the res of the sacrament outside of the sacrament. The necessity of baptism being hypothetical and not absolute, with respect to its intrinsic necessity. It still remains a funny thing, though, in a way since the sacramentum et res is not importation, and hence they are not made members of the body, are unable to receive the other sacraments, etc. In some way it has to be viewed as outside the means established for us.
September 28 at 2:39am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley So, what the dogma refers to is the sacramental order which we can use to become incorporated in the Mystical Body?
September 28 at 2:42am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Whereas, Baptism of Blood/Desire are special infusions of sanctifying grace by God in particular situations?
September 28 at 2:42am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley i.e. they're essentially irrelevant to the dogma in question, since we cannot use them in order to be saved?
September 28 at 2:43am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Matthew you wrote:
«1) Well, I suppose the so-called "Reformation" just up and happened out of the blue? Bad reformation. Bad enlightenment. The Other just up and came out of nowhere. Not the Church's fault at all? Heh. Whatever floats our prejudices. But I often argue about how complicated and varied the period was, and I freely admit that the history is up for grabs. But that works both ways. Let's not pretend like those arguing it was good don't paint cartoons the same way enlightenment propaganda does»
Of course the Reformation was largely the fault of corruption in the Church. But between the Reformation and the High Middle Ages was the late Middle Ages. My claim was that it was mostly _not_ the fault of the popes from 1073-1303, and their doctrine of the two swords and the subordination of the temporal to the spiritual. During that period one in fact sees a whole series of reform movements in the Church that were allied with the papacy (Cluniacs, Cistercians, Franciscans, Dominicans etc.). These were reform movements that Dawson calls "centripetal." Late in that period you get "centrifugal" movements, which were initially largely wordly in character—above all French nationalism, Italian particularism (oppostition to the emperor _and_ the pope), and one one might call "Frühkapitalismus". It is that goshawfull son of perdition Philip the Fair, who in his victory over Boniface VIII brings the High Middle Ages to an end, and inaugurates the "Late" Middle Ages. Only during the Avignon exile under the thumb of the French, and afterwards when the popes had returned to Rome, but as Italian princes among the others, where the distinction between the two swords (every bit as important to our model as the subordination of one to the other), and the role of the emperor as universal temporal ruler analagous to the pope as universal spiritual ruler, had been practically denied, only then do you get strong anti-papal reform movements culminating in the Reformation.
«2) But what I find even more interesting about your response is this: you don't want to automatically ascribe the cause of the reformation and the enlightenment to what I identify as the prior cause. Fair enough. But maybe you and others should apply that sound bit of logic to "Modernity" and American history»
Fair enough, I admit to having often painted simplistic cartoons of modernity, America and all the rest of it. _My_ accusing _you_ of simplistic views of history was partly studied hypocrisy. I do agree that their is a mixture in modernity, with some legitimate revival of ancient republican virtue and devotion to the common good (Aelianus's "Arthurian republicanism") mixed with the Lockean stuff. But I agree with Bond that ultimately the Lockean element is dominant and corrupts all the good bits.
PS. I'm for a universal temporal government, so of course I admire Madison for arguing for a Union against little democratic tyrannies—size of political community is not where I disagree with you...
September 28 at 2:48am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz That is my understanding.. Maybe not irrelevant, but as in some sense outside the order God has established in His Church.
WRT to the status of the doctrine. The reason Ott o Pohle/Preuss, among others, classify it is as sententia fidei proxima, is because the object of the definition was the sacrament. The mention of "or desire thereof" could, possible, be read similarly to the excepting of the BVM from the discussion on original sin...which did not amount to defining the IC but leaving it open. Sent fid. proxima means that in their judgment it could be defined dogmatically...though even I am not so sure of that (I recall a few authors using it as an example in the dispute between what could be considered de fide divina, with some arguing that it is only a theological conclusion, certain and taught definitively, but not itself revealed.
Perhaps others, beside Liguori, understand it as already dogma. The holy office statements I am thinking of had to do with the reconciliation of certain religious communities descended from Fr. Feeney...
September 28 at 2:54am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Come on Pater the Popes destroyed the idea of the Emperor when they subverted and destroyed the Hohenstaufen. They kept it up afterwards by encouraging a multiplicity of national monarchs and playing them off against each other, but this bit them in the ass with Henry VIII and the French kings.
September 28 at 2:59am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Ott fwiw first lists
Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)
then immediately after arguing that
In case of emergency Baptism of water may be replaced by baptism of desire or baptism of blood (sent fidei proxima)
Without any explanation. I relied on other authors. I will see if I can remember where they treated the question and where I got my info.
September 28 at 2:59am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think I was understanding Baptism along the same lines but conflating the dogma in question with what the Church teaches about the gift of Faith.
September 28 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (even if the nuance didn't show in my formulation )
September 28 at 3:01am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but speaking of the Papal ass, this is magnificent, Pater (I own it):
http://press.uchicago.edu/.../book/chicago/P/bo3631422.html
The Pope's Body
The book The Pope's Body, Agostino Paravicini-Bagliani is published by University of Chicago Press.
PRESS.UCHICAGO.EDU
September 28 at 3:02am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz FWIW my hometown is, oddly, a center of followers of Fr. Feeney... it was one of the first things I encountered coming back to the faith. Your statements would have caused frothing. Not that they accept my explanation either...
September 28 at 3:05am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The crude analogy I used in CCD was that baptism was a bridge built by God for us to get from sin to life. He orders us to take that bridge. Now you may not hear the order, and hence not be held responsible for not knowing. But you still need to cross the bridge to get to the other side (necessity of means) and that is the only means God has offered you. Still, if you are blocked along the way, nothing prevents God from rescuing you through extra-ordinary means, like an emergency pick up by a helicopter.
The point I always though necessary to emphasize, was that baptism of "desire" or blood were not only not on par with the sacrament, they are not, alternate means to the end either, but as it were affirmations that God can grant the end without the instrument/means He has given us. Still only on the condition that we truly will to use the means He has given us (in voto)
Does that make sense?
September 28 at 3:13am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Yeah, and that roughly matches the the picture that has stuck with me from the Baltimore Catechism
September 28 at 3:15am · Like
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Edward Langley
September 28 at 3:18am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Yeah, but don't use that image with the Feeney followers....and as with any image or simple picture, potentially misleading. It is only abusively that we say there are "3 kinds" since baptism of blood is only denominated such analogously, same with desire....heck baptism of desire only "works" e opere operantis after all...
September 28 at 3:21am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz This is bizarre
September 28 at 3:21am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Power went out, yet wifi is still up???? TV, outside light, street lights, are out but the wifi is on.... what witchcraft is this....
September 28 at 3:22am · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley I think the ladder vs. rope kind of captures that point well.
September 28 at 3:22am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Do you have a battery backup?
September 28 at 3:22am · Like
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Edward Langley I bought a nice UPS for my computer equipment.
September 28 at 3:23am · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, I have no battery backup...I mean I do in storage not in use, and there isn't one for the wifi nor the modem. Power was off for three minutes....wifi stayed on...I think it is witchcraft
September 28 at 3:25am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Maybe they have a built in battery back-up? Because even my skype phone, on te same power strip, went off
September 28 at 3:27am · Like
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Edward Langley That's possible, but I think you would know about it.
September 28 at 3:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I would think so too...I will check it out at some point.
September 28 at 3:28am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And I am suddenly very tired....good night TNET....wow this will be the first time in over a month I went to bed before 3 am....
September 28 at 3:40am · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, Caleb is an INTJ, very strong on each.
September 28 at 7:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no that's a terribly misleading picture. there is only one Baptism, there aren't "three kinds"
September 28 at 8:17am · Like · 4
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Benjamin MacGowen This is in my news feed.. forever
September 28 at 9:02am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia you're welcome!
September 28 at 9:02am · Like · 3
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Lauren Washburn Rogers I'm just going to read back through the previous comments before I jump in.
September 28 at 9:15am · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I'm just going to roll my eyes at how petty people think the divine nature is.
September 28 at 9:24am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger You must read them all, every petty one. Lauren.
September 28 at 9:33am · Like · 4
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Benjamin MacGowen Is the endless thread an excess, or is the ignorance of it deficiency?
September 28 at 9:41am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I agree with Michael, that image is misleading. There is only one baptism. (Cf. Eph. 4:5)
September 28 at 9:43am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia cf the Nicene Creed
September 28 at 9:44am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Rebecca, I don't understand what you wrote. Are the people petty, or are people thinking the divine nature is petty? And why, for either of those?
September 28 at 9:45am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia if you don't allow for God to let everyone into heaven but Hitler and Judas, you're petty Daniel.
September 28 at 9:47am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger [I suspect Rebecca has a Nietchzean conception of God that is to say that he is not bound by petty rules and such.]
September 28 at 9:50am · Like
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John Ruplinger The "petty" bothers us. It can't be of people [grammatically . . . at least easily] and it can't be of nature properly speaking. Could it be said of eye rolls? Something is petty and we thinks it is rules. Respondeo: the necessity of baptism seems a hard rule . . . even Augustine struggled with it. In truth it is an amazing gift.
September 28 at 10:10am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It seems to me that difficulties are ended when one simply says, "God is not bound to the sacramental order. However, insofar as He operates outside of the sacramental order, we can't say much beyond, 'It is possible.' Theology can only talk about and reason about the ordinary means of salvation, i.e. the sacramental order, since science must be about universals.
September 28 at 10:38am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Q.E.D.
September 28 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^And I do think that is a demonstration.
September 28 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Mr. Beitia, drop that candlestick!
September 28 at 11:15am · Like
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Annette FitzGerald I'm familiar with the concept of "baptism of desire" but not "baptism of blood". To what circumstance would that apply?
September 28 at 11:18am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Martyrdom. Abortion. The Jewish Holocaust.
September 28 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Martyrdom.
September 28 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald Okay, that makes since. and also eases the problem of limbo for babies in the case of abortion.
September 28 at 11:21am · Like
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Annette FitzGerald *sence.
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. The other two claims of Scott, though possible, are highly contentious. Typically martyrdom is what is mean by Baptism of blood.
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Annette FitzGerald *sense.
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Matthew J. Peterson Benjamin MacGowen: I too wrestle with this question.
TNET's thoughts are not my thoughts. They are too much for me.
But I suppose the same could be said of Satan as well as...
September 28 at 11:25am · Unlike · 3
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Benjamin MacGowen @ Matthew, as the post says, I can unfollow it if I wanted, but it is become like a friend unto itself; an annoying friend albeit.
September 28 at 11:32am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Just. Can't. Bring. Self. To Say. Goodbye.
September 28 at 11:31am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Must. Unfollow.
September 28 at 11:31am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Jehoshaphat Escalante if only the Hohenstaufen had been just a leetle bit more cooperative...
True story: when I was a novice we had lessons in the history of our monastery by a gentle old monk (since deceased). In one lesson he started talking about the Investiture Controversy. He said that the popes were motivated by envy and resentment against the German _Volk_. I was flabbergasted by this as it seemed totally out of character. But then it occurred to me that he was remembering the "facts" that he had learned in history class in high-school during the 3rd German Reich... Hard to shake of customary ways of thinking entirely...
September 28 at 11:32am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I appreciate the concerns of rulers who sought free investiture. But the theology of the matter is clear. Regardless of the personal motivation of some of the popes.
September 28 at 11:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is of course always fun to imagine the popes as evil and manipulative.
September 28 at 11:34am · Like
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Pater Edmund Many of those popes were also saints.
September 28 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Most famously Gregory VII.
September 28 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, the text accompanying the picture in the book it's from explains that.
But, as I said, the picture is only misleading if you don't pay attention: it clearly shows that there aren't three kinds of Baptism but rather three senses of the word according to a certain order. As I said before, that's why it's depicted as ladder vs. lifeline.
September 28 at 11:38am · Like
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Edward Langley Show some subtlety, people
September 28 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, Rebecca Bratten Weiss, I'm curious where you think the pettiness comes in?
September 28 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Pater if only the POPES had been a teetle more cooperative!
September 28 at 12:10pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Basically - the ancients had an anthropomorphic view of the divine nature according to which many petty human traits were attributed to the gods, and even, by the Hebrews, to Yahweh. Along come Plato and Aristotle, hooray, and now we have a sense of perfection, absolute being, etc etc....then along comes Christian revelation and we have a sense of God as personal, loving, etc (Plato's brain kersplodes). My question is: why, given all that we have learned, would we go back to an anthropomorphic idea of the divine according to which if we don't play by his rules he'll smite us? We agree to play by his rules because he is an absolute being and because he loves us and we wish to love him back as best we can. But assuming that if we don't do this we're damned is really presuming quite a bit. For all we know God might decide to save everyone anyway; but it would be presumptuous and unloving of us to bank on this instead of doing as he has asked.
I hope he does save everyone, but that he'll also let me kick Hitler repeatedly in the ass once we're all there..
September 28 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Daniel Lendman's approach makes sense to me.
September 28 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss BTW - I actually DREAMED about this bloody thread last night. I dreamed about a lot of other things as well, but still. Heilige scheisse.
September 28 at 12:41pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Before calling Catholic theology petty, one should first understand it...and I don't think you did.
September 28 at 1:01pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz So, Edward Langley the picture is only misleading if you read the text on the picture?
September 28 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, I think God is extremely petty. After all the difference between me and the dung on my shoe is less than between me and God. And if I cared about the well being of even the dung on my shoe with even a small fraction of the care God exercises to me, that would be pretty "petty". Pettiness, after all, is said because one is caring about de minimis, but we are all de minimis compared to God.
September 28 at 1:04pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^That is very Chestertonian of you Joshua.
September 28 at 1:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Fitzgerald I think with infants in general, we should avoid speculation. We know that, in se, baptism of desire and blood are not open to them (and being a murder victim, e.g. being aborted, is not equivalent to martyrdom). Arguments trying to establish such things always wind up either running afoul of the Church (e.g. Cajetan's extension of baptism of desire via vicarious desire of the parents was ordered expunged from his writings as contrary our beliefs or Pius XII's allocution to midwives) or rendering what we do know false (e.g. extending the concept of martyrdom to being the victim of any sinful act, yet martyrdom involves more than that, i.e. dying for Christ)
People speculate. For at least 400 years there has been an idea that God could "accelerate" the use of reason, and, conjoined with grace, including charity (which follows forgiveness of sins as effect to efficient cause, but precedes it as formal cause precedes its effect) then they could have baptism of desire, but only insofar as they are "de-infantized" by having the use of will
Actually, the acceleration idea is even older. Aquinas addresses it, in addressing the martyrdom of the Holy Innocents
(Objection1) Ad primum sic proceditur. Videtur quod martyrium non sit actus virtutis. Omnis enim actus virtutis est voluntarius. Sed martyrium quandoque non est voluntarium, ut patet de innocentibus pro Christo occisis, de quibus dicit Hilarius, super Matth., quod in aeternitatis profectum per martyrii gloriam efferebantur. Ergo martyrium non est actus virtutis.
To the first it is thus proceeded. It seems that martyrdom is not an act of virtue. Now every act of virtue is voluntary. But martyrdom is sometimes not voluntary, as is clear of the Innocents killed for Christ, of whom Hilary says, commenting on Matthew, "they were borne to maturity in eternity through the glory of being a martyr." Therefore martyrdom is not an act of virtue.
(Answer): Ad primum ergo dicendum quod quidam dixerunt quod in innocentibus acceleratus est miraculose usus liberi arbitrii, ita quod etiam voluntarie martyrium passi sunt. Sed quia hoc per auctoritatem Scripturae non comprobatur, ideo melius dicendum est quod martyrii gloriam, quam in aliis propria voluntas meretur, illi parvuli occisi per Dei gratiam sunt assecuti. Nam effusio sanguinis propter Christum vicem gerit Baptismi. Unde sicut pueris baptizatis per gratiam baptismalem meritum Christi operatur ad gloriam obtinendam, ita in occisis propter Christum meritum martyrii Christi operatur ad palmam martyrii consequendam. Unde Augustinus dicit, in quodam sermone de Epiphania, quasi eos alloquens, ille de vestra corona dubitabit in passione pro Christo, qui etiam parvulis Baptismum prodesse non aestimat Christi. Non habebatis aetatem qua in passurum Christum crederetis, sed habebatis carnem in qua pro Christo passuro passionem sustineretis.
To the first therefore it must be said that some have said that in the innocents the use of free choice was miraculously accelerated, so that they also suffered martyrdom voluntarily. But since this is not shown by the authority of Scripture, therefore it is better said that the glory of being a martyr, which in others is merited by their own will, the little children obtained through the grace of God. For the pouring out of blood for Christ is born in place of Baptism. Whence just as with baptised children, the merit of Christ work for obtaining glory, through the baptismal grace, just so in those killed for Christ the merit of the martyr Christ works for obtaining the palm of a martyr. Whence Augustine says, in a certain sermon on Epiphany, as if speaking to them, "He will doubt your crown in your suffering for Christ, who also does not reckon that baptism profits the little ones of Christ. You were not old enough to belief in the Christ who was to suffer, but you had the flesh in which you were to suffer for the Christ who was to suffer."
September 28 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Aquinas' answer here satisfies me, in part because it doesn't tryi and claim speculative mechanisms, but relies on God's grace as its ratio. There have been attempts to apply similar reasoning (e.g. a baptism "of suffering"), but I think it is beyond the ken of theology. We know what God has revealed. certain things, like baptism of blood or desire can be specified in some measure.
Of course whether infants who die without baptism are somehow saved from original sin before death or not, we can say two things 1. They will suffer no injustice and perhaps will be happy (as Aquinas argues) 2. Parents and others who neglect baptism, e.g. by putting it off for more than a month after birth for vain reasons, mortally sin and will be held accountable as if they excluded their child from salvation, even if God saves the child in spite of them.
September 28 at 1:21pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, I think that is the lowest insult you have given me! To compare what I said to a Chestertonism ... I will try harder at having substance and not just witticism
September 28 at 1:23pm · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Joshua - your problem is that you are equating your interpretation of Catholic theology with catholic theology per se.
And no, I disagree about the relation between the human person and God. As persons made in his image, we are far closer to God than we are to the dung on anyone's show; any personal being has a very high degree of incommunicability, so that each of us exists as though we were the only one, as a kind of secondary infinity: the infinity of a single ray emanating from a point, perhaps, in comparison with the infinity of a line extending into infinity on both sides. Our value is intrinsic, and not something that God just plastered onto us because he was bored with the self-communing of the trinity.
September 28 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The very one what?
September 28 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Thomists are so cute.
September 28 at 1:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We are infinitely distant from God, which is why the Incarnation is such a marvelous thing
And I guess Pius V, Pius XII Sixtus VI, etc were all petty here too?
And I am not sure what "personal being" means there. Yes we are made ad imaginem Dei. But we are like to God, God is not like to us.
September 28 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Why, for wanting you to say what you mean and not end halfway through a sentence?
"so that each of us exists as though we were the very one"
The very one what? This grammatically makes no sense
September 28 at 1:27pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Take a gander at some of Wojtyla's writings. There's been some good stuff done in the last 100 years.
September 28 at 1:27pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss My computer did that, silly.
September 28 at 1:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have read everything he has written. Can you at least clarify what you wrote?
Or do you believe in heckling and not engaging?
September 28 at 1:28pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz You are able to edit a post
September 28 at 1:28pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Each person exists as though he were the only one. Don't know what happened there except I was eating a sammidge.
September 28 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That's funny Joshua Kenz, I actually didn't think to look at the black caption. But, even then, even people like Aquinas use words like "kind" in ways broad enough to be properly applied here. (The fourth way, for example, depends on there being a proper sense in which God is the highest in various kinds or "genera")
September 28 at 1:30pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss My Nietzschean God and I are gonna go split some wood. I'll check back later for further amusement.
September 28 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Rebecca, in one way, it seems like what you are saying has to be true. There is something wondrous and even "infinite" about a personal being (by which I mean an individual substance of a rational nature).
However, on the other hand, you surely admit that we are infinitely less than God.
Are you and Joshua just speaking past one another? Or is there something really fundamentally opposed between what you've said?
September 28 at 1:38pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz I don't think that is true, or even makes sense when speaking of the relationship to God. But leaving the personalism and disagreements with it behind,
I fail to see what that has to do with the fact that the sacrament of baptism is one only, or that baptism of desire or baptism of blood are denominated so analogically, do not impart the character of baptism, etc. Since we weren't talking about infants, and in fact they were raised well after, I can only think that you either reject baptism of blood/desire, or you think they are sacraments, or you think that the Church's dogma that baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception is wrong, or you think the reconciliation of baptism of blood and desire with that dogma is wrong....
IOW, you didn't actually advance a claim..you just gave a broad snide about pettiness and "anthropomorphism" and general mockery. Yes it is cute to care about actual truth.
So from the top
1. Dogma- baptism of water is necessary for the salvation of everyone without exception
2. (saltem sent. fidei proxima)- baptism of blood and baptism of desire sometimes may be substituted
3. Explanation- baptism's necessity is extrinsic, and only hypothetically intrinsic. Because it is the only means God has given us, but it is not necessary from its nature for what it accomplishes, so God can act outside of it
4. Baptism of desire/blood are not sacramental and do not impart the character of baptism. And so are only called baptism analogically (sent. certa)
5. Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis, that of blood quasi ex opere operato (sent. communis)
Leaving aside 5, the rest is simply well established Catholic theology. WRT , Has nothing to do with personalism or anthropomorphism. If you reject 1 you are a heretic. Reject two, you are not a heretic, but you are still going against definitive teaching and are probably materially heretical. 3 is the only explanation I have ever heard, if you have an alternate let's have it. Rejecting 4 would be a theological error and censurable as such. And 5, well that is getting into little details
September 28 at 1:42pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss We have to be infinitely less than God, because God is infinitely more than us.
However, we enjoy a kind of infinity, that the dung on the shoe does not have - as an individual substance of a rational nature, but even moreso because of the depth of our interiority and because of our infinite world-openness (which even those who are low on rationality still possess). I agree with Max Scheler that it is in our religious sense especially that we transcend the other animals - in our need for God, our being made for God.
We're basically talking about the same thing, I suspect, but with different structures of interpretation or emphases.
Dammit stop distracting me people! There's firewood to cut!
September 28 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I appreciate the need for chopping wood.
September 28 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Okay, that I do not disagree with and Aquinas says as much in a clearer fashion than Scheler ever could...the whole anima est omnia in potentia thing
September 28 at 1:44pm · Unlike · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Regarding #1 there's sooooo much that can be said about what that entails: thus people are still arguing about it, here and everywhere.
September 28 at 1:47pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I think it's prudent to keep in mind that the formulation of a dogma is not just the answer to one question, but also the formulation of a whole new set of questions: or else doctrine would have just dried up at some point, and ceased to develop.
September 28 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz What is there to argue about? The sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation and that is only the means God has offered us...seems rather clear cut by itself.
September 28 at 1:51pm · Unlike · 5
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Joshua Kenz I am not sure what any of that means....
September 28 at 1:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz On a completely different subject, I came this close to blasting a hole in the wall of the house last night...power goes out again (briefly)...the front door slams open and then I hear something crash in the other bedroom...phone ain't working so I grabbed my .45 and investigated....dang raccoon had made it in...front door latch was stuck open.
Okay I didn't almost blast a hole...my finger was not on the trigger...but it is the closest I have come.
Very exciting. Chased the thing out with a broom instead. Pretty sure gunshots would have attracted attention
September 28 at 1:52pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I've had to shoot a couple of coons that were after my chickens.
September 28 at 1:53pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss The reason we argue is that if we have very dear friends or family who are not baptized (I'm half Jewish by the way) - it's very distressing to think that the interpretation of the dogma means no heaven for Grandpa. And this isn't just sentimentality, either, because presumably God loves Grandpa too.
Though on the other hand things have been sort of shitty for the chosen people for quite some time.
September 28 at 1:55pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Time for me to come out of the closet as an almost-universalist.....
....and go cut that wood.
September 28 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Did anyone here deny the possibility of baptism of desire? Wouldn't that have been more an issue (leaving aside whether the will must be explicit, or how must explicit faith is necessary and those other details that I don't recall anyone addressing)? Pointing out that the exceptions, as it were, are not equal to the rule, by itself, doesn't exclude your almost-universalism
Though I am an almost- massa damnata guy mysel
September 28 at 1:58pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Between the two dispositions, almost-universalist, almost-mass damnata, the latter seems to be very much closer to what the Fathers of the Church say.
September 28 at 2:03pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz The only reason I say almost there...being in the world and seeing how people are shows just how far from God the mass of men are in their daily life. But I have seen remarkable changes by grace too...God's mercy certainly is greater than man's depravity. How it all works out, only He knows this side of heaven....
September 28 at 2:11pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think the "distress" it causes people to think of all their unbaptized friends or relatives (and as an extension those living in sin) should not cause distress but rather increase one's trust in God and also our prayers to Him for those people.
September 28 at 2:11pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, you and your Fathers of the Church.
September 28 at 2:17pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Now here is a real question of debate, was John the Evangelist assumed, body and soul, into heaven at the end of his life?
September 28 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Yeah. The motto of my school is "Ad Fontes," as in to the sources of theology guided by St. Thomas. The sources being, Scripture and the Fathers.
September 28 at 2:19pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Off to Mass....Miserére mihi, Dómine, quóniam ad te clamávi tota die: quia tu, Dómine, suávis ac mitis es, et copiósus in misericórdia ómnibus invocántibus te.
September 28 at 2:22pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger good discussion after dragging Rebecca away from that petty wood pile.
September 28 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Going waaay back to Peterson's point about slavery becoming a goal of the war, that fits with what I've read. and of course lots and lots of early northern recruits were motivated by abolitionist conviction. I was mostly talking about the motivations of the Lincoln administration and probably most of Congress as well.
September 28 at 2:23pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger suavis et mitis et copiosus in misericordia. INDEED
September 28 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I'll deny the loosest interpretation of baptisms of desire and blood. Murder victims aren't martyrs, and "I just wanna be good" isn't desire
September 28 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and it's just sentimental BS that makes people refuse to see dogma for what it is.
September 28 at 2:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Sentimentality is often mistaken for mercy.
September 28 at 3:19pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Has anyone listened to Goyette's lecture on faith seeking understanding? It really is indoctrination. While he admits the sacred science begins in principle with an act of the heart bowing down to Dogma, he reduces sacred theology to the rational demonstration of the pre-ambles of the Faith. Take note. This leads to heterodoxy. He does not even use the Church's pre-ambles, but only Thomas' five proofs. What a limitation!
Sacred theology involves acts of love, evangelization, persuasive tropes, poetry, in keeping with reason but not reducable to an act of reason, to strengthen understanding of the ineffable.
http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/.../lecture-dr-john-j...
Lecture Audio: “St. Thomas Aquinas on Faith Seeking Understanding” | Thomas...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 28 at 3:28pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
September 28 at 3:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Please do, I would be interested to hear your view. He seems to reduce the sacred science to rational demonstration of Thomas's five proofs. Of course it is much bigger than this. Knowledge of God is indeed an analogy, but Faith seeking understanding via the sacred science truly is more than this reduction to natural theology.
September 28 at 3:30pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg He does seem to get the admixture of error part correct, but he stops right there.
September 28 at 3:31pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley "Let us take for example natural matter. A young person, by his observations, especially if they are directed, will accumulate a certain amount of knowledge in natural matters. From this point of view, we are convinced that the reading of great naturalists can help a lot. It is material, although very important. Of course, logic is not necessary at this stage. Let us go a bit further: there is no question of starting the study of the science of nature with the Physics and the explanation of the notions of matter, form and privation. Rather, why not start with the Parts of Animals?"---Msgr. Dionne, "The Necessity of Logic for each of the Intellectual Virtues"
September 28 at 3:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger syllaphor:
1) All Thomists are heretics because they do not assent to dogma with sufficient love and poetic flair.
2. TAC requires the study of Aquinas.
3. TAC grads must be exposed as heretics ad aeternum despite the precept to have nothing to do with heretics after the 2nd admonition. [Meanwhile ignore, completely, blasphemous apostates.]
September 28 at 3:44pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, mercy has often been mistaken for sentimentality as well
September 28 at 3:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps.
September 28 at 3:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have not found that to happen nearly so often.
September 28 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe just on tNET
September 28 at 3:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, it's over an hour long!
September 28 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Fair enough.
September 28 at 3:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe color me skeptical that Scott listened all the way through
September 28 at 3:51pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps my wife and I will listen to John's lecture as we fall asleep tonight...
September 28 at 3:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But probably not.
September 28 at 3:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd like to here a defense of the rationality of this curriculum for a change (not that I necessarily think that this is a bad curriculum, but just that its order isn't manifest to me):
"THEO 101-102 Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine (2 semesters, 3 credit hours each semester) A systematic presentation of the mysteries of the Faith, the moral and spiritual norms of Christian life, the liturgy and the sacraments, as revealed in Scripture and Apostolic Tradition and as defined by the magisterial documents of the Church.
THEO 201 Introduction to the Old Testament Major selections from the books of the Old Testament are read within the norms of Catholic exegesis. Special emphasis is placed upon the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Wisdom literature. One major purpose is to inspire a love of God’s Word, which is fully revealed in Jesus Christ.
THEO 202 Introduction to the New Testament The Gospels and other books of the New Testament are read in the light of Catholic norms of exegesis. The course will show how the Gospel texts reveal the real historical Jesus, true God and true Man, and will address contemporary critics who seek to distance the texts from Him. The course will also introduce the main themes of the Pauline corpus, the Johannine literature, and the Catholic Epistles. The primary goal is to make manifest through an in depth study of the Sacred texts that Jesus Christ is the fullness of God’s Revelation.
THEO 301 Moral Theology A study of the data revealed in Scripture and Tradition concerning what men must do to please God. Elaboration of the data, together with sound analysis of human action and a grounding of natural-law ethics, will equip the student to understand the current crisis in moral theology.
THEO 302 Catholic Apologetics A presentation of the basic arguments for the credibility of the Catholic faith. Students learn how to develop both cogent arguments for its defense and effective means of persuasion. Individual topics range from God’s existence to Papal Primacy"
September 28 at 3:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We are still making it through her first time watching Chuck.
September 28 at 3:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do we call him John now that we're 30? he's still Mr. Goyette in my head
September 28 at 3:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Lol!
September 28 at 3:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley The whole "defend TAC's curriculum" thing is getting old.
September 28 at 3:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was living near TAC for a while, Samantha, and came to know the tutors on a first name basis.
September 28 at 3:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is odd to think about it.
September 28 at 3:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That sounds nice.
September 28 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward. The order, prima facie, seems reasonable for a cursory overview of theology.
September 28 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^ where's the Aristotle in that theology curriculum? Didn't mention Thomas Aquinas once! Outrage!
September 28 at 3:54pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Especially an overview of theology that ends in apologetics.
September 28 at 3:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, I want to see a principled reason to proceed in that order as well as a defense of the inclusion of apologetics.
September 28 at 3:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Apologetics is the purpose of the curriculum, no?
September 28 at 3:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is it? why?
September 28 at 3:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger waaaaaay better than what I had, Scott's rants to the contrary notwithstanding. I learned almost nothing in 5 courses, grad and undergrad.
September 28 at 3:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That's just what it seems like in the purposed schema.
September 28 at 3:56pm · Like
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John Ashman Humans are often petty, which is why petty behavior has been ascribed to God. Smiting, coercion, threats, punishment, torture, murder, etc. Whether or not God exists, our vision of him wiII aIways be created in our image, and that wouId make for a very Iimited view.
September 28 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel, that seems to imply a more limited view of Sacred Theology than "fides quaerens intellectum" does.
September 28 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Oh, sure.
September 28 at 3:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, it looks like a college that employed such a curriculum would miss out on the fulness of Sacred Theology
September 28 at 4:00pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman But if I wanted to prepare someone for apologetics I would first catechize, then familiarize them with scripture; based on those two I would educate about certain practical principles of how to live, and then I would end with how to make an apology for the faith.
September 28 at 3:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think "prepare someone for apologetics" should be the primary purpose of any course of study
September 28 at 4:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ashman, our vision is not created in our image unless our vision is only from ourselves. If the vision is truly from God, then it will merely be expressed in our terms.
September 28 at 4:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe apologetics should be something theologians and philosophers do in their spare time
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, that is another question, and a good one.
September 28 at 4:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or well-educated lay people
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Daniel Lendman I am inclined to agree with you.
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Daniel Lendman But, St. Peter seems to indicate something that might seem to say the opposite. 1Peter 3:15
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Daniel Lendman But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
September 28 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe a well-educated lay person, let alone theologian, should be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in them without taking a class on "apologetics"
September 28 at 4:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see how that suggests that Sacred Theology is primarily ordered to defense of the Faith.
September 28 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^^There could be an art involved?
September 28 at 4:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Then study rhetoric
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John Ashman WeII, certainIy the BIbIe is a very Iimited and contradictory view. The Oid Testament portrays a rather a horrifying concept of God. My wife insists that the change from God V1.0 and God V2.0 is expIained through, weII, having a chiId, that Geesus (sp) was the cataIyst for God's change in demeanor.
September 28 at 4:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and certainly curriculum that subordinates theology to "apologetics" is getting something wrong, right?
September 28 at 4:05pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I say this as an evangelical who deeply believes in evangelism, but "apologetics" is not evangelism
September 28 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think that would depend on whether it subordinated theology to apologetics, simply speaking or not.
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Samantha Cohoe It perhaps has a small part to play in evangelization broadly understood.
September 28 at 4:06pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But before one defends, one must understand what is defended. It is not last as being the highest.
September 28 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm downplaying the role of apologetics too much, I think. But still, "apologetics" as a scholarly discipline does not seem legitimate to me
September 28 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm still actually unclear about what people mean by "evangelization".
September 28 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe spreading the gospel!
September 28 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Making disciples of all nations!
September 28 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Telling the good news!
September 28 at 4:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Apologetics seems to mean responding to criticisms of theology in the way one can respond to such criticisms.
September 28 at 4:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How can you not know what evangelization is?? Every once in a while you Catholics still astonish me.
September 28 at 4:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ashman, a lot of brilliant men and women throughout history have denied that bible is contradictory.
Given that you have participated in this thread before, I am sure that you are keenly aware that your tone and statements are highly offensive. Given such an awareness, it becomes hard to think that you wish to sincerely engage in dialogue.
What do you seek here? Here there are only sinners who hold a light in their hearts, the likes of which you cannot imagine. If you dare to let that light that is God himself penetrate your heart, then a world of life and love will open up to you. If not, then I am afraid you will find here, only foolishness. We preach Christ Crucified. The Son of God, son of Man, who has redeemed us all from sin.
September 28 at 4:09pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley If that's right, then it would only be linked to evangelism insofar as the evangilezandi resist conversion.
September 28 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, that's right.
September 28 at 4:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, what I mean is that I only know what "evangelization" is in a manner proportioned to naming and not the definition.
September 28 at 4:10pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It can be useful for removing objections. Limited.
September 28 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The name is pretty much the definition
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John Ruplinger But what precisely is studied in the particular course?
September 28 at 4:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, when a priest preaches to his congregation, is that evangelization? Or does evangelization require that the hearers be non-believers?
September 28 at 4:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it is evangelization.
September 28 at 4:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley How about what one does when teaching theology in advanced studies?
September 28 at 4:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger non-believers (which overlaps with the category "catholic" these days)
September 28 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman St. Paul talks about preaching the gospel to the Romans, even though their faith is "preached throughout the world."
September 28 at 4:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Insofar as we are in need of continual conversion, we are in need of continual evangelization.
September 28 at 4:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yes, but he also distinguishes between evangelists and shepherds and teachers
September 28 at 4:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
September 28 at 4:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think you can extend the use of evangelist to apply to almost any teaching about Christ, but primarily it refers to spreading the gospel to those who haven't heard and accepted it
September 28 at 4:17pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman That would seem to be the first meaning.
September 28 at 4:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger the word has become ambiguous especially when we throw the term new evangelization into the mix.
September 28 at 4:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Is evangelization part of the active or contemplative life?
September 28 at 4:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And priests in the pulpit should definitely take the opportunity to evangelize, because of what John said about the overlap of the category non-believer with the category catholic
September 28 at 4:18pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have no idea what "new evangelization" is
September 28 at 4:19pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I think it usually means that modern people need to be taught about Catholicism in a novel way.
September 28 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe evangelization is as new as 2000 years ago, isn't going to get any newer
September 28 at 4:19pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe hm. ok. sounds suspicious, but whatever
September 28 at 4:20pm · Like
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John Ruplinger new evangelization = new good news. Clear?
September 28 at 4:20pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think generally, what people mean, is that the mode used by the great teachers of the Church from Augustine to Pius XII or so is somehow no longer able to be as effective as it once was.
September 28 at 4:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm never exactly sure what the proponents think has changed.
September 28 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I heard it described once by a prelate thus: "what does faith mean to you?"
September 28 at 4:23pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh, so this is why you're confused about what evangelization is?
September 28 at 4:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley No.
September 28 at 4:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's a very good question to ask, as long as it's followed by sound teaching on what faith ought to mean.
September 28 at 4:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley I just often wonder if I understand all these terms people throw around.
September 28 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger NO. That was the last word. Face palm . . . . by a prelate. And hence the confusion.
September 28 at 4:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley I find it especially puzzling in class when the teacher makes a big deal about some relatively straightforward point without ever coming clean as to why that point requires such emphasis.
September 28 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ashman ApoIogetics is defense, not to say "I'm sorry". (I say this outIoud because I didn't know that before and had to Iook it up in my handy 1828 Websters)
September 28 at 5:29pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Seems Iike the kind of thing that wouId be necessary with any ideoIogy, the abiIity to defend it and those trained to do so.
September 28 at 4:40pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner As I understand it, the 'New Evangelization' is not new with respect to content but with respect to the condition of the recipients. It refers to the spreading of the Gospel to non-believers who already belong to Christian cultures. They have heard of Christ, but they don't yet know the Good News in any meaningful way.
September 28 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Or maybe it refers to believers in the sense of the already baptized who don't know or care about the Faith they have inherited. I'm not totally sure about that.
September 28 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Here is something: "The New Evangelization is distinct from the Old Evangelization The intended audience for each is different. The New Evangelization is not directed at non-Catholics, non-Christians, or non-believers. ...The NE is concerned with deepening the religious experience and commitment of nominal believers. ...the NE seeks to call back non-practicing believers to active participation in the Church." This is from a talk by Bishop Edward Clark on the Emerging Challenge of the NE for a Renewed Church
September 28 at 4:56pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley What concerns me about these things, is that there is no sign that non-practicing Catholics have ever been in short supply (starting with St. Ignatius of Loyola who, in his youth, was anything but "religious"). Also, it is slightly concerning that people today attach so much value to novelty: if someone in Aquinas's day had called him an innovator, he would have taken it as an insult, at the very least.
September 28 at 5:00pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Katherine, hence the confusion on evangelization. Also the "how" is confusing. I think I read the same thing as you a short while ago. Catechism, death, judgement, heaven and hell are still effective imo.
September 28 at 5:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger How about a Penitent Church just for old times sake, a Sack Cloth and Ashes Church?
September 28 at 5:21pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman My wife is in CathoIic Charismatic RenewaI. It's basicaIIy about reigniting or converting to CathoIic faith with a newer, more persuasive approach, rather borrowed from Baptists and EvangeIicaIs near as I can teII.
September 28 at 5:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is sad that this thread moves faster than my eyes can follow; but Dr. Goyette for the college spells out what he believes the term "faith seeking understanding means, and in his address says that for St. Anselm this means a reasoned demonstration of the existence of God, and this is not at all what St. Anselm meant by faith seeking understanding. For Anselm, fides quaerens intellectum means "an active love of God seeking a deeper knowledge of God. "Neque enim quaero intelligere ut credam, sed credo ut intelligam. Nam et hoc credo, quia, nisi credidero, non intelligam." ("Nor do I seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe that I may understand. For this, too, I believe, that, unless I first believe, I shall not understand.")
So Goyette it seems is describing a sacred theology that is not a fully Catholic sacred theology, but one which he limits to natural theology.
The Light of Faith, the encyclical, in fact spells out quite beautifully what faith seeking understanding really means and the previous three Popes have spelled out beautifully the means and ends of sacred theology.
It is sad the college does not use these definitions, but the constricted one provided by Goyette.
I knew Goyette when he was in his 20s. He was very stubborn, and often adhered to false notions like a puppy sinking its teeth into the cuff of someone's trousers. I will certainly pray for him and the college.
Sacred theology employs a wide variety of means to help the believer gain a better understanding of his faith, and not just those logical demonstrations of scientific reason which the college presents.
Let us talk about these beautiful paths by which the believer seeks understanding. These are the paths of love of God, the secret ways of devotion.
September 28 at 5:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, you really use a lot of words to say a little
September 28 at 5:47pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss And yet, Aquinas WAS an innovator. He wasn't trying to be, I expect, but when one is seriously applying oneself to understanding innovation just will happen: since there's always something new to discover, or a new appreciation of already acquired truth.
September 28 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley There might be a sense in which Aquinas was an innovator, Rebecca, but in a much more fundamental sense he was a continuer: he developed the received understanding of philosophy and theology in such a way as to more clearly show what was contained in them.
September 28 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You may be confusing the act of faith with fides quaerens. The latter presupposes the former. But these are good suggestions. Maybe when you start your own school, TAC will emulate your trailblazing and follow on the new paths. [@Scott]
September 28 at 5:55pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott, you should go to my alma mater. You would have a field day. You don't even need to invent heresies.
September 28 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman "you really use a lot of words to say a little" = phiIosopher
September 28 at 6:00pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner John Ruplinger, I would think that if this New E thing lacked "Catechism, death, judgement, heaven and hell" it wouldn't be much any kind of evangelization at all. I don't pretend to know a lot about it, but I don't think the claim is that there is need for new doctrine.
September 28 at 6:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Katherine Gardner Or, I guess that depends whose claims we are talking about. I suspect there are as many people using that term as there are people 'explaining' Vat. II. Some will be rightly interpreting the mind of the bishops and some will be nuts.
September 28 at 6:05pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger ^ yes. I find it confusing.
September 28 at 6:08pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.gomerblog.com/2014/09/pediatric/
Mutated Pediatric Names Linked to Higher Mortality
Atlanta, GA -The lead article in this month’s Journal of...
GOMERBLOG.COM|BY ARARE LITUS
September 28 at 6:26pm · Like · Remove Preview
Samantha Cohoe I wish Mr. Goyette were on facebook.
September 28 at 6:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I suspect I shouldn't have been casting shade on this New Evangelization, in Katherine is standing up for it, especially since, as I said, I've never heard of it before.
September 28 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If the content isn't meant to be different, then I have no a priori beef with it.
September 28 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Everyone talks about New Evangelizing, but I'm not even sure what it looks like. I think maybe smiling and hugging people.
September 28 at 6:30pm · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner Goyette was among those to whom I endeavored to lay bare the mysteries of tNET. I was at that talk... he just straight-forwardly summarized some sections from the beginning of the Summa. There was nothing novel in it... and certainly nothing suggesting we supplant Faith with reason. But let's not feed the troll. Also, I don't really know what the NE looks like- I didn't mean to defend it exactly, but to clarify what it is actually purported to be.
September 28 at 6:31pm · Unlike · 4
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Katherine Gardner I wish I could have you over right now for some coffee and pumpkin pie, Samantha. But this is the next best thing, I suppose.
September 28 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so if new evangelization doesn't differ with regard to the content, then how is it different? A catchy jingle? Dance routines? I'm unclear how it could be different if the matter is the same.
September 28 at 6:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz 1. Daniel Lendman, you and I must differ in disposition with names. I lived with the Nietos after TAC and I still call Mr. Nieto Mr. Nieto....
2. Aquinas cannot really be called an innovator, and I would advance that innovation and novelty are the marks of bad theology. What he was, was a systemizer. Perhaps you can call that an innovation, in a certain respect, but the point is that innovation is not the essential character of his work. Rather, "he most venerated the ancient doctors of the Church, in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of all."
Indeed, the theses he advanced, that at the time were deemed novel and attacked and even condemned by the archbishop of Paris, were actually founded in the Fathers and tradition (though sometimes with disagreement among Fathers), and previous scholastic before him were the ones that had stumbled. Examples of this are
a. His Christology- the homo assumptus theory and things like that had made a resurgence in the West. Thomas, clinging to the earlier Councils, and Fathers of both West and East, rejected this and advanced the real Christology of the councils
b. He was condemned, for all things, in holding that not all lies were mortal sins....people now think he was hardline! But again, the discussion on lying was not always as severe as the "Augustinians" made it out to be.
c. That Christ had acquired knowledge, and not just Beatific and infused knowledge. This was rejected by Bonaventure, Albert the Great, and Alexander of Hales, and after Aquinas by Scotus and Suarez. But that He had acquired knowledge was not a true innovative insight, but a part of the recovery of a more complete Christology (indeed even Aquinas originally denied Christ had acquired knowledge, and then saw the error in the light of the Fathers)
I could go on, but all his innovations seem to boil down to a) restorations of aspects of theology neglected b) harmonization of sometimes confused and conflicting accounts of the Father c) boiling down what was always believed to its more intelligible principles
3. What is meant by new evangelization is this: not that it is a new Gospel to be preached (God forbid!) or even that the manner of evangelization before Vatican II must needs replacement, but rather this- that lands, formerly evangelized, are now as mission territory. In some ways, America has always been canonically treated as mission territory (though starting with the Plenary Councils of Baltimore, we started, but never actually achieved, setting up full canonical ecclesiatical structure- e.g. parishes never actually met all the requirements then required by canon law, and even by the 3rd Plenary Council, they recognized we had a long way to go). But now even Europe must be treated as, largely, nations of unbelievers. Lax Catholics have always existed, of course...though in the age of faith, even bad people in some way believed in a way they do not now (though watching Latino gangbangers, take off their hats and cross themselves in front of a Catholic Church may be similar).
September 28 at 6:52pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Elliot Milco, we need more hugs! And smiles...followed by convicting the world of sin and calling it to repent....
September 28 at 6:53pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--you and Elliot Milco should get together to talk about how great being compared to Chesterton makes you feel.
September 28 at 6:54pm · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco I suspect that what was originally meant by "New Evangelization" was that there was a first wave of evangelization during the apostolic and patristic periods, and we need another one of those for the present age in light of the rapid expansion of atheism across the globe.
Unfortunately, the combination of "New Evangelization" with "New Pentecost" and other "New" things that people have talked about since the 60s gives one bad ideas, and the general lack of clarity about many things doesn't seem to help.
September 28 at 6:54pm · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco Joshua, do you share my love for the Great and Holy Doctor of Common Sense PBUH?
September 28 at 6:55pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Elliot Milco, from earlier in the thread "Daniel Lendman, I think that is the lowest insult you have given me! To compare what I
said to a Chestertonism ... I will try harder at having substance and
not just witticism"
September 28 at 6:56pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Michael Beitia, I thought the text I quoted distinguished the so-called 'new evangelization' in terms of the recipients of the Gospel, not in terms of its nature. I.e. there are some who are not pagans but who need the Good News preached to them. This is a new kind of evangelizing because the hearers are often born into Christian families. Now, why call this evangelization rather than re-conversion or something, I am not so clear about. But what makes it new compared to the Apostles being sent to new continents is clear enough.
September 28 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman http://thepracticingcatholic.com/.../cardinal-wuerls-3.../
Cardinal Wuerl's Three Core Elements of The New Evangelization
Cardinal Wuerl spoke recently at the Christ Our Life...
THEPRACTICINGCATHOLIC.COM|BY DEACON JOEL AND LISA SCHMIDT
September 28 at 6:57pm · Like
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John Ashman My understanding is that it's a more formaIized and more traditionaI version of the Charismatic CathoIic RenewaI which has some free form aspect to it. It's Iess Southern Baptist, more straight Iaced.
September 28 at 6:59pm · Like
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John Ashman CCR has catchy songs, dancing, hands in the air, etc.
September 28 at 6:59pm · Like
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John Ashman As opposed to the traditionaI CathoIic approach of driving peopIe away whiIe baIancing the Iosses with marriage and Iots of chiIdren.
September 28 at 7:00pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Presumably, and maybe this is what you're getting at, one would approach a baptized person in Michigan differently than one would a pagan in a pagan land. One wants to deliver the message in a way suited to the hearer. But the problem could arise from thinking that the way to win over the hearer is to water down the message.
September 28 at 7:02pm · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco I think the real problem is that people believe that the message needs to be made appealing to people, i.e. that the burden of credibility falls on the preacher and not on God speaking through him.
September 28 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Thanks for that link, John Ashman. It looks helpful.
September 28 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Well to some degree it's just common sense that you adapt yourself to your audience. I wouldn't proclaim the Gospel to you in Greek, for example, even though much of the New Testament was composed in that tongue. But in another way you are quite right... it would be silly to try to figure out what values the hearer already has and then try to make it sound like the Gospel is just re-affirming those.
September 28 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco There's an attitude I've found often among new evangelizers, which is that new evangelizing involves easing people into the gospel with lots of affirmations and smiles, so that they never feel put down or like their views are being rejected.
September 28 at 7:08pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz I enjoy Chestertonisms in small doses...problem is he writes every line as if to make it quotable, and thus never really goes beyond throwing up bombastic imagery, into the real substance of what he is talking about. It also makes his writings less unified...great for finding witticisms though.... Belloc was the better essayist and, in his better poems, better poet, of the two...but he gets less love
September 28 at 7:08pm · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner @ Elliot. I see. Ick.
September 28 at 7:09pm · Like
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Elliot Milco I agree with the ick, but it's an understandable temptation. If you think the gospel is just like any other bit of propaganda, then you've got to sell it to people.
September 28 at 7:10pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not sure who the "new evangelizers" are...I just hear the need for a new evangelization, and I agree with it as far as that goes...
September 28 at 7:10pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Step 1 is "God Ioves you no matter what". Versus the oIder styIe of "you're going to heII". CCR is simiar to a 12 step program but has 7 or 8 steps I beIieve. Each one designed to bring peopIe in without anxieties or fears or resistence.
September 28 at 7:11pm · Like
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John Ashman ObvioiusIy affirmation and smiIes = bad......
September 28 at 7:12pm · Like
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John Ashman What is the other option though? Scare peopIe? Threaten them? That was the oId schooI, medievaI method. I suppose you couId hope for osmosis or a sudden direct visit from God himseIf.
September 28 at 7:14pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner It sounds like people are more afraid of an evangelization that replaces the saving truth with a non-demanding affirmation. One should speak the truth in love. Need the truth, need the love. One or the other alone isn't Christ.
September 28 at 7:14pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Katherine Gardner, I thought with all the ellipses that you were just cherry picking...
September 28 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman This is the antidote to the idea that the Church is overIy judgmentaI.
September 28 at 7:16pm · Edited · Like
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Elliot Milco Well, I prefer to kidnap people and rack them until they consent to baptism. The true medieval way.
September 28 at 7:15pm · Unlike · 5
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John Ashman I totaIIy miss the rack
September 28 at 7:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia pandering makes me sick. I hate it in all of its hydra-like many-headed appearances.
I refuse to pander, nor to speak to someone if I am being pandered to
September 28 at 7:16pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman I think the idea is to use one to get to the other, rather than go backwards and get nowhere.
September 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Elliot Milco People always tell that story about St. Dominic staying up all night converting the innkeeper, but they don't normally mention his methods of torture.
September 28 at 7:17pm · Unlike · 1
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Katherine Gardner Wait, who or what is (doing the) pandering?
September 28 at 7:17pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia NE strikes me as pandering
September 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Well there is that whole keys "thing".
September 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Charismatic movements are clearly pandering
September 28 at 7:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman That's absoIuteIy fascinating, MichaeI, pIease teIi me more.....
September 28 at 7:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia piss off Ashman
September 28 at 7:18pm · Like
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John Ashman Hah!
September 28 at 7:18pm · Like
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John Ashman WeIi, the other option is the eventuaI Ioss to IsIam.
September 28 at 7:18pm · Like
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John Ashman Or atheism.
September 28 at 7:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Michael, clearly isn't into pandering with Ashman at least.
September 28 at 7:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Beitia also thinks Sunday School is pandering.
September 28 at 7:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Why are charismatic movements pandering??
September 28 at 7:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because people want them? In that case, isn't your traditionalist church pandering to you with all its incense and whatever kind of orienting of the alter and whatnot?
September 28 at 7:23pm · Like
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John Ashman If they reaIIy wanted to pander, they'd provide free beer, or at Ieast happy hour.
September 28 at 7:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Katherine-- I believe established tNET practice is that feeding the Scottegrine troll is permitted but not encouraged, whereas feeding this new and less charming troll is strictly disallowed
September 28 at 7:24pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman "TroII" = "someone who disagrees with me and I have no reasoned response"
katherine seems reasonabIe.
September 28 at 7:26pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Humanity has left the medieval world of cold ideas and eternal stakes, and entered the world of feelings. In the old world, God was an eternal spirit. But if he is to stay relatable, if God is going to continue existing at all, he needs to become an emotion. Enter the Charismatic Renewal.
September 28 at 7:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't really know what the Charismatic Renewal is like in the Catholic Church, but your description is accurate at all to the Charismatic movement that I am familiar with.
September 28 at 7:29pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner I've missed a lot evidently. I didn't even know there was a new troll!
September 28 at 7:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The new troll just said you "seem reasonable." A deceptively non-trollish thing to say. But, as a tutor, you might be above the rule of tNET law
September 28 at 7:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia new troll- = Ashman
Samantha, I worked for the largest charismatic catholic community in the US at one point. Freaky pandering.
September 28 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner No one has special privileges on tNET!
September 28 at 7:31pm · Like
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Joel HF We've had a few trolls, and in the lulls between trolls, we've worn the troll mantle ourselves in turns. Sadly for us, we need the other to unite. FB is a Hericlitian place, and trolling is the father of all threads.
September 28 at 7:31pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Guitar Masses - pandering
September 28 at 7:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ...except maybe tutors
September 28 at 7:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I deny Katherine Gardner's tutorness. it's after my time!
September 28 at 7:32pm · Unlike · 4
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Katherine Gardner I wish. I'm not a real tutor, though. I'm just on the honeymoon.
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner Exactly.
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's true, Joel. I've done a bit of trolling.
September 28 at 7:33pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger No, I have seen the sort of catechism where the kid is asked a question and his wrong answer is congratulated and never corrected. Rather stunned me as this was the method. Even bishops using it to demonstrate NE. That has something of flattery to another's opinion.
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I haven't
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe LIAR
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Lifeteen - pandering
September 28 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman The Church had a nice history of pandering which it used untiI it became strong enough to convert through force. Much of the traditions have basis in pagan rituaIs and stories and were adopted in order to create a commonaIity and bond between the Church and those they hoped to convert.
September 28 at 7:33pm · Like
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John Ashman If they hadn't pandered a IittIe back then, there might be no Church to pander today.
September 28 at 7:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia martyrdom - not pandering
September 28 at 7:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- say what you mean by "pandering"
September 28 at 7:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not martyrdom
September 28 at 7:34pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Resurrection is a bit.
September 28 at 7:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So everything every one of us has ever done was pandering
September 28 at 7:35pm · Edited · Like
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Katherine Gardner You (Michael) mean like Socrates' account of "flattery"- the knack of guessing at what will please rather than the craft of knowing and delivering what is actually good?
September 28 at 7:38pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman Martyrdom definiteIy happened.
September 28 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe since that was all "not martyrdom"
September 28 at 7:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Katherine, something like that. Instead of telling people the truth, you water down the truth to make them feel good. It's all about feelings and talking down to the other
September 28 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner (Was that tutory enough of me?)
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe guitar masses have nothing to do with not telling the people the truth
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like
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John Ashman Isn't beIief a whoIe Iot about how it makes you feeI? PeopIe actuaIIy feeI better when they beIieve.
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Sure do. Made to "entertain" and "be relevant"
as if truth wasn't.....
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco The arch-paternalism of denying other people the truth so you can manipulate their emotional states.
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and yes, I'm an elitist.
September 28 at 7:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--If you think the mass is a Sacrifice where the body and blood of Christ truly become present, then, yeah, "guitar masses" are pandering. (Just my take.)
September 28 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Truth is a bitter piII, and moreso if it is thought to be a pIacebo.
September 28 at 7:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is it pandering to have music in mass, since that might be "entertaining?"
September 28 at 7:38pm · Like
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John Ashman Having air conditioning is pandering.
September 28 at 7:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia again, if you think that there is such a thing as the "real presence" yes
September 28 at 7:38pm · Like
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Joel HF This moves too fast for me. Off to take the wife out on the town.
September 28 at 7:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It depends, Samantha, on whether you're talking about Gregorian Chant or Rossini.
September 28 at 7:39pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman Singing is practicaIIy the deviI's work.
September 28 at 7:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There are a lot of missing middle terms to these arguments, guys
September 28 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Middle terms are for other people.
September 28 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I prefer Palestrina, but then again, I'm modern enough to like the minor third...
September 28 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Off to the steak, Michael.
September 28 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (sic)
September 28 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Samatha, that reminds me of a student of mine who criticized the baltimore catechism by saying that its arguments weren't validly formed.
September 28 at 7:39pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe if you're missing the middle term you haven't made an argument
September 28 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman MiddIe terms are pandering.
September 28 at 7:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe just thrown a bunch of opinions out there.
September 28 at 7:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Why does someone have to be "relevant" and "cool to the kids"?
Because they think that the kids "can't get it" without being entertained. It is fundamentally looking down on the person you're "entertaining"
September 28 at 7:40pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley tNET was founded on the bold art of assertion.
September 28 at 7:40pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Arguments are for forums.
September 28 at 7:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Teaching small children things through songs, like Sesame Street, is age appropriate. But I'm a grown man, I don't need that
September 28 at 7:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^Stop trying to make your forum happen, Ed. It's not going to happen.
September 28 at 7:42pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe So songs in mass, no good
September 28 at 7:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe even if they help elevate your soul to God, because your soul should only need the cold light of truth, and the sacrifice of the mass
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Songs in Mass should either be inspiring or penitential.
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, songs made to "entertain" and "be more modern" (I'm sure you can imagine the shit-eating tone of voice I intend here)
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is, either Bach or Schönberg
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia HEY! I like Schonberg!
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I don't know how I ended up defending guitar masses.
September 28 at 7:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The real problem with guitar in the Catholic church is how BAD you guys are at it
September 28 at 7:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It takes the focus off of Mass, and onto the person participating. Which is backwards
September 28 at 7:44pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe SO BAD
September 28 at 7:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Protestants suck at it too
September 28 at 7:44pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The guitar is malum in se, haven't you heard?
September 28 at 7:44pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco Protestants are worse at the guitar, but because everything is so bad with protestants, the guitar in itself is less offensive.
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Some of us do. Our church back in Denver had terrible, terrible guitar music that was a weekly source of mortification for me
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sort of the high point, Elliot?
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's all sing some Haugen
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You guys are mean. I want Mr. Ferrier to come back and bless me again.
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like
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Elliot Milco The smell of fish befits the dignity of fish, but not that of a human.
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Hmm?
September 28 at 7:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia at least RDF is a *real* tutor
September 28 at 7:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Our church in St Louis has incredible, worshipful, gospel-type music.
September 28 at 7:46pm · Like
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John Ashman WeII, I'd have to agree in that if they start doing rap, I'm out.
September 28 at 7:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley I choose a parish by the donuts they serve afterwards.
September 28 at 7:47pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco My favorite CCR song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwMHCspD0nQ
My Little Pony Friendship is Magic - Theme Song (Extended Version) w/Lyrics [HD]
Like, Favorite and Subscribe for more Ponies! I'd really...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 7:47pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I just assume that bad donuts are a sign of bad theology.
September 28 at 7:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "If you cannot be trustworthy in little matters . . . "
September 28 at 7:47pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman Donuts are good, but cream fiIIing is sacriIege.
September 28 at 7:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Just for you Edward Langley
September 28 at 7:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Guitar music makes one feel good, is anthropocentric. Chant lifts one's soul to God, is theocentric.
September 28 at 7:49pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe good guitar music can lift one's soul to God. But you're all excused from not knowing that, since you're Catholic and thus wouldn't have experienced it.
September 28 at 7:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ha, I deny that on principle
September 28 at 7:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and on experience
September 28 at 7:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe whatever. this is not the hill I want to die on.
September 28 at 7:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia some of us weren't born Catholic. Some of us have been to A LOT of different churches.
September 28 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Terry James Archambeault I remember having one of these threads. Before something happened to it, we'd reach about 130K comments. May you achieve that!
September 28 at 7:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe not the right ones, apparently
September 28 at 7:54pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Please, let us abolish anything that is appealing, humanistic, or, heck, even beautiful in our liturgy or spirituality. Heaven forbid that people should embrace the faith for any reason other than that they are scared shitless.
I think we have a little means / ends issue here.....
September 28 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's a silly fallacy Samantha. I could just as easily say the same thing about Mass
September 28 at 7:55pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ?
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Rebecca, I think you have a little straw man problem
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman This is my proposaI for getting more peopIe into church -
http://mic.com/.../why-we-all-need-universal-spiritual-care
Why We All Need Universal Spiritual Care
The ACA health care bill doesn't go far enough towards saving the American People and we must include a...
MIC.COM|BY MIC
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "not the right ones"
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Michael, the best music is at Synagogue. And the best parties at Jewish weddings.
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe don't understand you, Michael
September 28 at 7:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ones with good guitar music, is what i meant
September 28 at 7:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there isn't any. I like my guitar music evil
September 28 at 7:56pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I'm just trying to make as many comments as possible to see how long the thread will get.
September 28 at 7:57pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Violin is evil. Paganini anyone?
September 28 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia last I checked I was in the top spot. You'd have to do a hell of a lot of trolling to catch that....
September 28 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Yeah! and you can play Paganini on the guitar! In fact, his father played the guitar!
September 28 at 7:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #guitargnosis
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're citing your experience, I'm citing mine. they don't seem compatible, so I'm postulating that our experiences don't overlap
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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John Ashman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT3SBzmDxGk
2CELLOS - Thunderstruck [OFFICIAL VIDEO]
http://www.facebook.com/2Cellos http://www.twitter.com/...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe *Are* you still in the top spot? I think I might be gaining on you
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Maybe when you've seen all that I've seen, Samantha, you'll understand
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe where are those stats Ed promised?
September 28 at 7:58pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss But please, someone, explain to me why it is icky to appeal to people and make them feel comfortable about discussing the faith. With all the false versions of Christianity out there, people are very prepared to be suspicious and dismissive; fire and brimstone is unlikely to make them want to listen. The ethos element of classical rhetoric is just as important as the logos. And in this case, the ethos is part of the logos.
September 28 at 7:59pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I still don't see what fallacy I'm supposed to have committed
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no one said "fire and brimstone" ergo: straw man
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley moral relativism
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia You'll understand later, Samantha
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss And no, there's no way I could possibly catch up with you guys. This is my entertainment in between class prep and grading and flogging my children.
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I hate you.
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Samantha, postulating things isn't an argument.
September 28 at 8:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ME!?
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (and I have just decided to call moral relativism a fallacy)
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss hell and damnation = fire and brimstone, yes?
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe postulating things is all anyone has done on this subject!!!!
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I prefer low mass. No music. I believe that was Francis' preference.
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no one said hell and damnation either
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia denying "warm fuzzies" isn't the same thing
September 28 at 8:01pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Oh, and who said anything about warm fuzzies, eh?
September 28 at 8:02pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I did
September 28 at 8:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just now
September 28 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Guys, all these words are so intellectual and proud. Don't you think we need to just feel some more love?
September 28 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
September 28 at 8:03pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Samantha, they're using enthymemes, but the missing premises are hidden in the aether. Not to be available unless one has achieved the gnosis.
September 28 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco Here have some MWS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Sn5rV6oM0
michael W Smith - Above All
It is time to worship the Lord. And this time with this great singer that I love, michael W Smith. what can I say? I just...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 8:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my opinion is that if you type more than one line, fifteen comments appear and render it irrelevant
September 28 at 8:04pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley My own views on music in the liturgy are informed by ten years of suffering through Mass at Franciscan.
September 28 at 8:04pm · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Every Man his Own Straw Man: Sustainable Logic for the Post-Modern Age.
September 28 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You know the Francis FUS was named after. I don't think he would approve of guitar masses.
September 28 at 8:04pm · Like
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Elliot Milco In most matters syllogisms are unnecessary because the subject at hand is evident and one can effectively convince interlocutors by making judgments that get them to see the commonly available object under a particular aspect. Complaining because people aren't using syllogisms is silly.
September 28 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Ugh, mass at FUS. I stopped going there and started going to St. Pete's. Then discovered that everyone was insufferable and uptight. Now I drag myself to the most basic little parish imaginable, though communing with nature and toasting Dionysos might be a more appealing way to spend a morning.
September 28 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I love it when TACers make their aesthetic preferences into moral preferences.
September 28 at 8:06pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley They are entitled to it because TACerness is human nature simpliciter.
September 28 at 8:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley They are obviously the prudentes Aristotle wrote about in the NE.
September 28 at 8:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 28 at 8:07pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Syllogisms are unnecessary because they only show us what we know already, unless you want to grant a synthetic a priori (runs and cowers under Descartes' stove).
September 28 at 8:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger liturgical music is a magisterial matter. Where's Scott?
September 28 at 8:08pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Oh look, a Kantian. *Yawn.*
September 28 at 8:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me that sacred theology is much more than a rational demonstration of St. Thomas' five proofs.
September 28 at 8:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The Church's authority definitely seems to be on the side of the Palestrina/chant/organ people: see Tra Le Sollecitudine, for example.
September 28 at 8:10pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss A Kantian? Where? I didn't think you TACers allowed them. I figured you smothered them with copies of the Summa or something.
September 28 at 8:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley We apply the standard remedy for idiocy: argumentum ad baculum
September 28 at 8:11pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Imagine how wild Palestrina must have seemed when he first appeared on the scene.
September 28 at 8:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, the organ will return, and hopefully sacred theology will return again too. St. Anselm meant much more than a reasoned demonstration of the pre-ambles when he said his faith was seeking understanding.
September 28 at 8:11pm · Like
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Elliot Milco The organ is an abomination.
September 28 at 8:12pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss If this were a FUS thread, someone would have made an organ joke LONG ago.
September 28 at 8:12pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Chant is highly reasonable. The organ causes tears of joy to flow.
September 28 at 8:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know about Palestrina appearing musically wild, pre-Beethoven, that kind of thing generally wasn't a feature of classical music.
September 28 at 8:13pm · Like
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Elliot Milco The organ is a patch for poor musical formation: it makes it so that no one has to listen to the awful droning of their neighbors during hymnody.
September 28 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Where is John Goyette. He needs to defend his reduction of sacred theology to what he teaches.
September 28 at 8:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott needs to get with the program: we are currently talking about music.
September 28 at 8:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Organ is the main mast of the ship.
September 28 at 8:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, we're waiting for him to show us how the core theology curriculum at Christendom is the right way to do theology.
September 28 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg My Virginia license plate said CHANT
September 28 at 8:15pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Um, Handel?
September 28 at 8:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Elliot, that's just because very few actually bother to play the organ anymore.
September 28 at 8:16pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg My classmates and I at Christendom read everything ever written by Aristotle.
September 28 at 8:16pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Don't complain about people not playing the organ. Sometimes they try to play it when they shouldn't and that is infinitely worse.
September 28 at 8:16pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Scott: in which case Christendom has been holding out on us, since all the rest of us would LOVE to read his lost Dialogues.
September 28 at 8:17pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco Or if the organ isn't being used as a patch for horrible singing, it's being used to keep the congregation entertained during the offertory or the ablutions.
September 28 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Arabic music sometimes used in the Melkite liturgy of St. John Chrisostom is nice too.
September 28 at 8:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is a problem too, but I've never actually experienced it that I can remember.
September 28 at 8:17pm · Like
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Elliot Milco God forbid there should be silence at mass.
September 28 at 8:17pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss ...material for an academic thriller / satire right there. Umberto Eco eat your heart out.
September 28 at 8:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Choirs make me want to vioIate most of the 10 Commandments.
September 28 at 8:18pm · Like
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Elliot Milco But if you feel it, it must be from above, right?
September 28 at 8:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Christendom is a rose garden surrounded by an iron fence. We do not submit principles of faith to sophomoric heterodox "rational demonstration".
September 28 at 8:22pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Yeah, sorry, there are objective standards for sacred music, as set out by the Church, and guitar Masses don't meet them.
September 28 at 8:21pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson I'd link, but my food is about to burn.
September 28 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg TAC will slay dragons though, when they ramp up their theology an amp or two. (I'm trying to be helpful.)
September 28 at 8:22pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman If they pIayed HaIo at church, I'd go every day -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_aXs4O9JoQ
Porcupine Tree Halo HQ
Thanx everybody for watching it! if u want listen my soundcloud enjoy that: https://soundcloud.com/niconor-ig...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 8:22pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Lex orandi lex credendi. If the theology needs to be amped up, they need to add some amps to the liturgy...
September 28 at 8:22pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I have a Christendom graduate right here next to me who would like to say something - "SHUT UP SCOTT!"
September 28 at 8:22pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley The problem with Christendom, Scott, is that they seem to subordinate their whole study of theology to apologetics: in evidence of which is that their course of studies ends with apologetics.
September 28 at 8:23pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (just to push back a little)
September 28 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg It may seem like that, but I am silent.
September 28 at 8:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, you should tell us why it's reasonable to put apologetics at the culmination of the required course of studies.
September 28 at 8:24pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html
Tra le Sollecitudini
ADOREMUS.ORG
September 28 at 8:25pm · Unlike · 4
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Sean Robertson ^St. Pius X's motu proprio on sacred music
September 28 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, furthermore, Christendom just seems to waltz through all the complicated dogmas at the very beginning of the course of studies: is this supposed to indicate that the dogmatic matters can just be skimmed through early on and left behind?
September 28 at 8:26pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Scott, can you tag some of your Christendom professors?
September 28 at 8:28pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I'd love to know what they think of their faithful defender.
September 28 at 8:28pm · Like · 5
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Sean Robertson Also, I would highly recommend Ratzinger's The Spirit of the Liturgy. The whole thing is a masterpiece, but there's a chapter in there about sacred music which is amazing.
September 28 at 8:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I Iove how peopIe take something very simpIe (a supreme being beyond comprehension) and them muck it up with pedantic detaiIs about it with their "unique" knowIedges, fight about it for 2000 years and then caII me a troII. It's....deIicious. I mean, this is what God wants, right? Incessent infighting and name caIIng? AIi very....ChristIike.
September 28 at 8:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Piano is worse than guitar at Mass...indeed the Church allows string instruments and have, at least as an exception, for a long time, but percussion it never liked.
The Organ should be used minimally when not supporting chant. On certain feasts, for processions and recessions it is great to have it thundering. But I am with Milco on not playing it as filler music.
September 28 at 8:32pm · Like · 4
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Elliot Milco It's ok John. Everyone is on the same path to emotional self-fulfillment, right? We are our own truth.
September 28 at 8:32pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think this is the music we need at Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFIkeXQI8nI
September 28 at 8:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 28 at 8:41pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Christendom provides the full outlay of the principles of sacred theology, then dives into the principle one in Moral and Sacramental Theology. It does not just provide a truncated version of sacred theology as a demonstration of rational proofs. That is just a false presentation of sacred theology and leads to heterodoxy, and that is a very funny picture above.
September 28 at 8:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's clear by now you're a dummy, Scott. The real question is - whose hand is stuck up your backside?
September 28 at 8:44pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Plus Christendom has a couple of world class theologians. Real theologians, not threadworn Catholic dads masquerading as Victorian men of leisure.
September 28 at 8:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Plus Christendom grads are about 99.9 percent true gentlemen. I may be the only exception.
September 28 at 8:47pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell That what what they used to say about John Major, Isak, and the hand belonged to Margaret Thatcher.
September 28 at 8:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nice photoshop, btw.
September 28 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I am pleased to be named among the likes of Margaret Thatcher. Isak=John Major.
September 28 at 8:48pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict That doesn't even make any sense, dummy.
September 28 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Isak Major, you are a man of remarkable talent. Your opposition has solidified a majority based on truth.
September 28 at 8:50pm · Like
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John Ashman "We are our own truth." But that beats being someone eIse's truth, does it not? Why are we not discussing the 3rd testament so we can go to heaven with the Mormons? I wouId hope God wouId be Iess hard on those who seek their own truth and faiI to find it, rather than those who simpIy foIIow what has been Iaid out for them according to some guys who are dead and are beyond questioning.
September 28 at 8:51pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 28 at 8:52pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I rise today to thank Sir Isak Major, for helping to secure the defeat of his own party.
September 28 at 8:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Shout out to The Honorable Woman. The pilot was AMAZING. Everyone should watch it.
September 28 at 8:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Goyette, in his introduction to sacred theology, effectively defines sacred theology as the rational demonstration of Thomas's five proofs. Hmm...
September 28 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like
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Kevin Gallagher Since Elliot Milco is here, maybe I should backtrack a few weeks and insist again that the Christian intellectual tradition survives only at Yale
September 28 at 9:01pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman They must have repIaced anything reIated to teaching the Constitution with that because we now nothing of inteIIectuaI originaIism survives.
September 28 at 9:07pm · Like
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Kevin Gallagher That's true actually -- I don't think anyone tried to teach me originalism there
September 28 at 9:09pm · Like · 2
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Kevin Gallagher I couldn't find any professors who would teach me geocentrism either
September 28 at 9:10pm · Like · 3
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Kevin Gallagher Damn liberal bias
September 28 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman that's okay, we have the CathoIic Church for that stuff.
September 28 at 9:13pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Sorry, John, I can't hear you over the theme song from My Little Pony.
September 28 at 9:21pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman I thought Paw PatroI was on.
September 28 at 9:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Thesis: The bulk of the problems in theology today can be traced back to the Jesuit order- viz. to the Jesuit's adoption of certain Scotist theses on one hand and nominalism on the other.
Discuss.
September 28 at 9:42pm · Like · 2
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Kevin Gallagher They are only partially responsible for von Balthasar
September 28 at 9:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Pre- or post-suppression?
September 28 at 9:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Pre-suppression, made worse after
September 28 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's probably better to blame the Franciscans.
September 28 at 9:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have in mind the following
1. The over emphasis on conscience and conflation of it with prudence
2. Subtle casuitry, sometimes absurdly immoral in implications (like the Jesuit Diana's treatment of wearing a habit while visiting a whore- you are excused lest you cause scandal)
3. Treating divine causality as univocal (Molinism)
4. Denying the distinction of potency and act
5. Until recently, denying the universal call to holiness; e.g., treating contemplation and meditation as something extraordinary and not a call for the laity (Garrigou Lagrange had a hand in finally smashing that error)
6. Due to their casuitry, leaving little room for the beatitudes and counsels or even virtue in morality
7. Probablism, which allows for moral laxism, especially when everything is "in dispute"
8. Denigration of the role of the liturgy
9. Emphasis on the experiential in the spiritual life (Ignatian retreats). Compare this to Carmelite/Dominican spirituality, as etended to the laity...again follows because they don't think laity are generally called to anything beyond
10 And in like mind, emphasis on the minimal adherence to what suffices morally, rather than perfection
11. The treatment of the contrition necessary in confession as being sufficient if it is only fear of hell (Thomists don't hold that, but we are told it is Church teaching when it is Jesuit teaching), leaving out any need for love of God
12. I could go on. Many saints in the Jesuit order, but the problems of today are visible then as in seeds of disruption.
September 28 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Hey John Cuddeback, Thomas Aquinas College defines sacred theology solely as the rational demonstrations of the existence of God.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
September 28 at 9:49pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia hey Scott - you're an idiot!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
September 28 at 10:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell A syllabus of the errors of the Jesuits — what is this, a forum for 19th-c. history?
September 28 at 10:06pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Just trying to stir the pot...start an argument. Guess we don't have any laxist Suarezians here tonight
September 28 at 10:08pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Y'all can have all the hand clapping, guitar strumming you want. We have plain chant for the propers, and organ for the other parts (communion motet, offertory motet, recessional, etc.) but then again, it's a solemn high with deacon and sub-deacon every Sunday
September 28 at 10:10pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua, also the practical anthropological error of privileging will over intellect
September 28 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I'm just surprised to find someone who still reads Garrigou Lagrange.
September 28 at 10:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz You don't like his spiritual works?
September 28 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Beitia where are you, geographically?
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not too far from you
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia geographically
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My experience with G-L is that he is a very average thinker.
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Daniel, there are a ton of people who still read Garrigou Lagrange.
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But I haven't read too much, so I won't hold myself to that.
September 28 at 10:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I'm on the other side of a major city
September 28 at 10:13pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell My professors didn't read him, but then I did philosophy, not theology.
September 28 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I think he was blackballed by Toronto for some reason.
September 28 at 10:13pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Aesthetic preferences are moral preferences. The reason for this is that the natural purpose of all aesthetic art is to lead and aid the soul in its pursuit of the transcendent Good. So of course, e.g. some music is bad in this respect, some good, and of the good, some is better, etc.
September 28 at 10:14pm · Like · 6
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Elliot Milco That's unfortunate for you.
September 28 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Just think of me as an Arts Master rather than a Theologian, to put it into 13th-c. terminology.
September 28 at 10:14pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sez you ...
September 28 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell
September 28 at 10:14pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I love Garrigou Lagrange!
September 28 at 10:16pm · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma Being on the other side of a major city is like being on the dark side of the moon. Or maybe on the other side of a black hole. Just dont go through there.
September 28 at 10:16pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I find a syllabus of errors that the Jesuits make (or have made) to be beside the point. In my university parish, which is manned by Jesuits, their primary considerations are the pastoral guidance of the students, faculty, and townies, and the saving of souls. They also are quite intelligent and expert at preaching. I love the Jesuits.
September 28 at 10:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz G-L is average on some things sure, but superb on others. He did prefer teaching Spinoza before he was ordered to do theology...
His discussion of the universal call to holiness and contemplation as something even the laity are called to do though is one of his great areas, and where has has left his biggest mark on the Church. He was made the first chair of Spiritual Theology at a Pontifical University fora reason, and I believe will be canonized one day (a belief Maritain held as well, despite their falling out)
September 28 at 10:17pm · Like · 5
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Elliot Milco I would imagine it's like being a large striped sock covering the smelly feet of a giant.
September 28 at 10:18pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Don't slander Lady Philosophy, Elliot.
September 28 at 10:18pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Beside what point? I was the one that raised the topic! It is the point from the fiat of the one who raised it. Whether it is important or not is another matter.
September 28 at 10:19pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Do we still have any of his course notes or books on Spinoza? Or did he not leave any behind?
September 28 at 10:22pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jesuits used to be the Antichrist but now they're too stupid to have any interesting profile at all
September 28 at 10:24pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell ^bs
September 28 at 10:26pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua remind me we have to talk about contemplation and Poulain/ Saudreau sometime
September 28 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell News flash: JA thinks the Pope is stupid.
September 28 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante no, just Antichrist sometimes. Not now though
September 28 at 10:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well.....
September 28 at 10:27pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ah yes! Here come the Ultramontanists!
September 28 at 10:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael seems like the kind of person who'd think that nowadays.
September 28 at 10:28pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
September 28 at 10:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia think what?
September 28 at 10:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley that the Pope is the Antichrist
September 28 at 10:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope, just stupid. I hit "enter" too late
September 28 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia
September 28 at 10:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg HA...HA-ha-ha...ha (stop, please, my ribs)
September 28 at 10:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well Scott, you're an idiot, but who am I to judge?
September 28 at 10:35pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Follow the morning sermons that Francis is giving in Santa Marta (and has been giving over the past year). Time well spent. You'll learn a thing or two.
September 28 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBAGjHbFjU
Catholic Mass CMAA Colloquium 07 3 of 12
Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the Nativity of St. John the Baptist. principal Celebrant: Fr. Lawrence Donnelly. June...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 10:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where's the sanctuary Scott? Where is the real presence of our Lord?
September 28 at 10:41pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyN3JaBWH88
(Part 1 of 5) Sacred, Beautiful, & Universal
http://www.ccwatershed.org/cmaa/ http://www.ccwatershed.org/projects/cmaa/(Part 1 of 5)...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 10:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Probably up in heaven with all the unbaptized who still had hope in God.
September 28 at 10:42pm · Like
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John Ashman ...Iike watching kids argue over Santa CIaus....but not nearIy as adorabIe....
September 28 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia why is there an ironing board in the middle of that marble room?
oh.... it's supposed to be an altar....
September 28 at 10:43pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg we go where the people are...
September 28 at 10:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think many people iron any more...
September 28 at 10:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I know Saint Maximillian Kolbe had neither an iron nor an alter, but he still said Mass.
September 28 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not by choice. And he said it ad orientem
September 28 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia people apparently choose ugly .... I don't get that
September 28 at 10:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley That's the crypt church in the national basilica.
September 28 at 10:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It is still ugly
September 28 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #Madisongnosis
September 28 at 10:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley just from an angle that doesn't get the sanctuary
September 28 at 10:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg but my book is for sale right above in the bookstore
September 28 at 10:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's not an endorsement, Scott
September 28 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg no one chooses ugly in the post vatican II church
September 28 at 10:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg yes, they have a stand and my book is in the window
September 28 at 10:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia apparently most people chose ugly in the post VII church
edit: 25125 #palindromicgnosis
September 28 at 10:51pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't know if you've been there, but it actually isn't ugly
September 28 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia good for you, but it is still an ugly church, with an altar that used to include the relics of saints, now relegated to a glorified ironing board
September 28 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia A long time ago, Ed, before I was Catholic, when I was in high school
September 28 at 10:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I almost used to live in that crypt church
September 28 at 10:49pm · Like
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John Ashman There is no such thing as an ugIy Church in the eye's of God.
September 28 at 10:50pm · Like
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John Ashman There, I said it.
September 28 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg ugly church's are a bad analogy, but ugly church's do not change God.
September 28 at 10:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Mr. Beitia has some issues to "iron" out.
September 28 at 10:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think the same is thought about you, mr scott
September 28 at 10:52pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I meant to say the post-Vat II ministry has some issues to iron out. My apologies.
September 28 at 10:53pm · Like
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John Ashman The church behind our house was wiped out by OdiIe, but it's important to judge.
September 28 at 10:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I probably have some issues too, Scott, no offense taken.... jerk
September 28 at 10:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I know I have some issues also.
September 28 at 10:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia aaah it's a tNET love in
September 28 at 10:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Liturgy is the architecture of the Mass.
September 28 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's not go there, Scott
September 28 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia soon Peterson will be accusing me of being a "crusty trad"
September 28 at 10:56pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg The dome at Holy Transfiguration in McLean, Virginia, is not up to Melkite specifications, but its liturgy is sacred.
September 28 at 11:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Elliot Milco should check out Michael Beitia's parish, if he hasn't already.
September 28 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jesuits..."What happened to you? You used to be so beautiful."
September 28 at 11:09pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz One of these days I will get Fr. Buckley's book on the decline of Jesuits....
September 28 at 11:10pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Beita probably goes to SCK, which is way too far south for me. I'm a SJC guy.
September 28 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson When they were good, they were very, very good. But when they are bad they are horrid.
September 28 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovqzCjN_dpA
Celebrating Fr. Buckley's Golden Jubilee: 50 Years in the Priesthood
A video tribute to Rev. Cornelius Buckley, S.J., head...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 11:12pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnirpxk0CI
Dr. Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences
What are the liberal arts? Why should one study them,...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 11:13pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, here is the REAL video on Father Buckley:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aeS9HGDgYs
More Than A Father
Thomas Aquinas College 2007 student film. Dedicated to Fr. Cornelius Buckley, S.J. (I didn't make it, I just...
YOUTUBE.COM|BY JAMES HORNER
September 28 at 11:14pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley
September 28 at 11:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Let us ascend
September 28 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg We left the Western Church in 2010 and became Melkite. We're Eastern Catholic... in union with Rome, but no scandals or disputes about things our kids do not need to know about.
September 28 at 11:19pm · Like
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John Ashman Never be ashamed of who you are... You're warriors... be proud.
September 28 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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John FitzGerald 25,154...
September 28 at 11:24pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner That reminds me of a lady on the Wisconsin Catholic radio station... she was telling some cheesy story, and the punchline came out in her thick accent like this: Down't beeya 'fraid a Hooyar! I have lived with stoic indifference to Hooyar ever since.
September 28 at 11:26pm · Like · 6
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Scott Weinberg I think Christendom really lost something in Warren Carroll. May God's perpetual light shine upon him. Not all Christendom students are good at Math, but they will always be orthodox.
September 28 at 11:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg tNET loves you no matter what.
September 28 at 11:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson This is fantastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnirpxk0CI
Dr. Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences
What are the liberal arts? Why should one study them,...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 11:29pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'll watch it.
September 28 at 11:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
7883 Michael Beitia
6654 Edward Langley
5645 Samantha Cohoe
5165 Scott Weinberg
5029 John Ruplinger
4988 Daniel Lendman
3010 Matthew J. Peterson
2761 Joel HF
2492 Isak Benedict
1969 Joshua Kenz
September 28 at 11:31pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco What do the numbers mean?
September 28 at 11:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
1900 Jehoshaphat Escalante
1472 Jeff Neill
1461 Jeffrey Bond
1239 John Boyer
1164 Daniel P. O'Connell
1114 Catherine Ryland
1028 Pater Edmund
774 Nina Rachele
738 Jody Haaf Garneau
660 Megan Baird
September 28 at 11:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It is how awesome we are...except Scott, his name is black because he is unawesome
September 28 at 11:32pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley number of comments
September 28 at 11:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Should be a sign of shame - definitely a measure of spousal anger - but in the world of tNET, they have become a mark of distinction.
September 28 at 11:33pm · Edited · Unlike · 8
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Samantha Cohoe Wow. So many comments.
September 28 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz JA Escalante = @Jehoshaphat Escalante
September 28 at 11:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Which would make him 1900, just under me
September 28 at 11:34pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I've been fixing them
September 28 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This is a VERY INTOLERANT speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QSiIqne5kE
Dr. McArthur addresses the Students of Thomas Aquinas College
On Friday, April 27, 2012, with the academic year coming...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 28 at 11:34pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I should really try to cut back.
September 28 at 11:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley VERY INTOLERANT = AWESOME
September 28 at 11:35pm · Like · 7
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John FitzGerald I'd've commented more but I didn't know enough about what you guys were discussing. It seemed smarter to try and piece things together.
September 28 at 11:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley .
647 Lauren Ogrodnick
646 John Ashman
564 Frank Morris
557 Adrw Lng
474 Sam Rocha
453 Tim Cantu
416 Marie Pitt-Payne
397 Aaron Gigliotti
332 Sean Robertson
318 Katie Duda
September 28 at 11:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How many comments did Peregrine Bonaventure make before he was... murdered.
September 28 at 11:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Something weird is going on with those numbers
September 28 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley they definitely add up to more than we have here
September 28 at 11:39pm · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco Yeah, I was thinking that.
September 28 at 11:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Jehoshaphat Escalante, that would be an interesting talk. I am guessing you agree with Lagrange and Saudreau against Poulain about infused contemplation versus acquired contemplation in the mystics?
It seems so obvious once it is pointed out that the error of the Quietists involved ascribing to acquired contemplation what belonged to infuse contemplation
September 28 at 11:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We could eat chocolate poulain, while dissecting Poulain
September 28 at 11:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Because Peregrine made about 10,000 comments which went into the tally, then some brown-nosing little... well, then he was killed by Mark Zuckerberg.
September 28 at 11:41pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Hand count!
September 28 at 11:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg reverse that.
September 28 at 11:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg re-count!
September 28 at 11:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Elliot Milco - McArthur even gets in a dig at Chesterton at 8:30 in that speech.
September 28 at 11:43pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson More intolerance.
http://thomasaquinas.edu/about/founding-document-0
Founding Document | Thomas Aquinas College
American Catholics are becoming increasingly aware of...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
September 28 at 11:45pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Chesterton revealed how God's nature is poetry. McArthur demonstrated how God may be demonstrated. I would choose the former any day. Plus McArthur called American universities a Tyranny. That was over the top.
September 28 at 11:47pm · Like
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John Boyer 1239 comments? Not bad. More than Pater Edmund.
September 28 at 11:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm rerunning the statistics because I'm pretty sure they're off significantly
September 28 at 11:53pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger don't think i am over 1800 and still about 5th.
September 28 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Keep in mind the untimely MURDER of Peregrine Bonaventure because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH>>>
September 28 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We're adding his comments to yours, Scott.
September 28 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Mary Gauvain: come on - tell us about M-B?
September 28 at 11:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Do you still believe we are the same person?
September 28 at 11:57pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley You have an interesting tendency to make all the same arguments
September 28 at 11:57pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict
September 28 at 11:57pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley And that bestiary you claim to have written was advertised on Kickstarter under his name.
September 28 at 11:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm not surprised it was under a different name. I don't think anyone would seriously want to take credit for that poetic atrocity...
September 28 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Did you actually buy it, Isak?
September 28 at 11:59pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That is really funny you should say that, Ed, because others have been saying how different we are. The bestiary was written by Jon Scott and marketing by Peregrine. The first draft of the couplets and engravings were reviewed by Dr. Nathanson who described it as ingenious. It does not pretend to be high poetry, but it is what it is. Thank you.
September 29 at 12:10am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Even the worst of the moral poems cannot be described as an atrocity or deplorable, but as being bad because they lack this or that quality of the form of art... so consider Isak's remarks as being emotional, or for what they are worth. Remember there was a time he wanted to strike me for throwing mud onto a pro-abortion politician who was lining up votes in Catholic parishes during a political campaign.
September 29 at 12:11am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am wondering if TAC could have some crusty trad bishop ban The Blessed Book of Beasts. Then it may sell even better than it is now.
September 29 at 12:28am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Isak, would you like me to send you a copy of the book? I am sure the opening quatrain will make you smile.
September 29 at 12:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
September 29 at 12:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg http://www.catholicculture.org/comm.../the-city-gates.cfm...
The Blessed Book of Beasts
There is a long-standing Judeo-Christian tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual lessons. Jesus used...
CATHOLICCULTURE.ORG
September 29 at 12:15am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Blessed Book of Beasts is the gift book of the season:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
September 29 at 12:18am · Like
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Scott Weinberg O, the Fox looking up to the Moon did cry,
High, fair Moon can you tell me why,
Morning breaks and I must die,
And the Moon looked down in warning.
Run now Fox, they've got your scent,
And the Moon reached down, Her white arms bent,
But by that time the Fox was spent,
And hung, on the High Tree dying.
O, the Fox looking up to the Moon did cry,
High, fair Moon can you tell me why,
Morning breaks and I must die,
And the Moon sang out in glory.
Hey, ho skididdle-eye-o,
Hey, ho skididdle-eye-o...
September 29 at 12:25am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Dr Neumayr in this video says that these lower sciences perfect the higher science of theology, and this clearly seems to be backwards. In fact the Queen perfects the handmaidens, as it is the Dogma of the Church which states that without the principles of revelation then reason alone cannot obtain high truths without some admixture of error. This is evidenced in that even the Doctors of the Church erred in metaphysics, whereas Dogma unveils revelation with authority and veracity. Dr. Goyette in his lecture of Sept. 2 goes even further to reduce theology as "faith seeking understanding" to the rational proofs of the existence of God. This is NOT sacred theology. This is natural theology. Sacred theology must begin with an outlay of Her own principles, which is the Church's interpretation of Sacred Scripture. From there it uses a variety of means, principally dialectical and rhetorical in form, to help the student acquire a theological habit of mind and a spirit of devotion which draws the person into devotion of God. This involves a doing as well as an acting. This is spelled out very well in the last five papal encyclicals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNnirpxk0CI
Dr. Neumayr on the Order of the Arts and Sciences
What are the liberal arts? Why should one study them,...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 29 at 12:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Operations of the queen are always perfected by servants.
September 29 at 1:00am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 1:21am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Least I never told anybody to go to hell...
September 29 at 1:22am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 1:42am · Like · 2
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Clayton Brockman This is still going? Snap.
September 29 at 2:11am · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley A new, better, graph
September 29 at 4:02am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Updated top 10:
2983 Michael Beitia
2407 Edward Langley
2254 Samantha Cohoe
1962 John Ruplinger
1821 Daniel Lendman
1811 Scott Weinberg and the same as Peregrine
1148 Matthew J. Peterson
1091 Scott Weinberg by himself
1028 Joel HF
966 Isak Benedict
783 Joshua Kenz
September 29 at 4:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I will need to work harder if I am to stay in the top 5
September 29 at 4:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps I should just type out my papers on TNET.
September 29 at 4:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One sentence per comment.
September 29 at 4:10am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or I could do a running political commentary.
September 29 at 4:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am rather happy that I am ahead of Scott.
September 29 at 4:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I couldn't help but notice that Scott's return coincided with his ouster from the alumni page.
September 29 at 4:12am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Question for tNET.... is all of what is now called theology a science?
That is, is systematic theology a science, but not positive theology? If so, then is positive theology to be considered theology properly speaking, i.e. would say, Aquinas call it theology? Or perhaps should it not be distinguished, really, from systematic theology?
If so would you extend the term to cover apologetics? How about homiletics and catechetics?
While not interested in engaging Scott Whiner-booger, someone earlr threw up the course of study at Christendom.
Now it seems to me that they are operating under a different notion of what theology even is. E.g, I wouldn't call apologetics, as such, a science or theology, but they do. And the first year seems to rest on the presumption that positive theology is something really distinct from "systematic theology" and should be done prior to it.... Whine-booger is probably not a good candidate to try and deduce anything from on this score, but at least he might be confusing positive theology with merely symbolic theology.
Seems to me we would claim positive theology (biblical, patristic and symbolic) are not to be really distinguished from systematic theology, but that they are the same science, with the former pertaining in a greater way to its sapiential aspect. But I do get the impression that Christendom treats theology very differently.
September 29 at 5:36am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, I have had similar questions. As I consider it, Theology, strictly speaking is one, because its object is one, namely God. There are, therefore, no formal divisions in theology.
I surmise, then, that all the things that are now called theology are of two kinds. The first is theology divided materially: This would include things like moral theology, biblical exegesis, etc. As well as divisions in study: Soteiriology, sacramental theology etc.
There is another fundamental division in theology, however, that is also found as part of study and this is, as I think of it, theology as art (perhaps there is a better name?). My thought is that theology in this sense stands to Theology strictly speaking (i.e. Sacra Doctrina) the way the art of logic and the art of mathematics stand to their respective sciences. In this category I would include pastoral theology, apologetics, and the like. Thoughts?
September 29 at 5:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, I'd like your thoughts as well.
September 29 at 5:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know you never sleep.
September 29 at 5:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Does moral theology have God as it's object? Or is it rather man and what ought to be done?
September 29 at 6:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Even there, it is man's actions insofar as he is ordered to God.
September 29 at 6:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Proof:
Respondeo dicendum quod sacra doctrina, ut dictum est, una existens, se extendit ad ea quae pertinent ad diversas scientias philosophicas, propter rationem formalem quam in diversis attendit, scilicet prout sunt divino lumine cognoscibilia. Unde licet in scientiis philosophicis alia sit speculativa et alia practica, sacra tamen doctrina comprehendit sub se utramque; sicut et Deus eadem scientia se cognoscit, et ea quae facit. Magis tamen est speculativa quam practica, quia principalius agit de rebus divinis quam de actibus humanis; de quibus agit secundum quod per eos ordinatur homo ad perfectam Dei cognitionem, in qua aeterna beatitudo consistit.
September 29 at 6:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Proof (in English):
I answer that, Sacred doctrine, being one, extends to things which belong to different philosophical sciences because it considers in each the same formal aspect, namely, so far as they can be known through divine revelation. Hence, although among the philosophical sciences one is speculative and another practical, nevertheless sacred doctrine includes both; as God, by one and the same science, knows both Himself and His works. Still, it is speculative rather than practical because it is more concerned with divine things than with human acts; though it does treat even of these latter, inasmuch as man is ordained by them to the perfect knowledge of God in which consists eternal bliss.
September 29 at 6:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Proof of the major:
Respondeo dicendum sacram doctrinam unam scientiam esse. Est enim unitas potentiae et habitus consideranda secundum obiectum, non quidem materialiter, sed secundum rationem formalem obiecti, puta homo, asinus et lapis conveniunt in una formali ratione colorati, quod est obiectum visus. Quia igitur sacra Scriptura considerat aliqua secundum quod sunt divinitus revelata, secundum quod dictum est, omnia quaecumque sunt divinitus revelabilia, communicant in una ratione formali obiecti huius scientiae. Et ideo comprehenduntur sub sacra doctrina sicut sub scientia una.
September 29 at 6:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Proof of the major (in English)
I answer that, Sacred doctrine is one science. The unity of a faculty or habit is to be gauged by its object, not indeed, in its material aspect, but as regards the precise formality under which it is an object. For example, man, ass, stone agree in the one precise formality of being colored; and color is the formal object of sight. Therefore, because Sacred Scripture considers things precisely under the formality of being divinely revealed, whatever has been divinely revealed possesses the one precise formality of the object of this science; and therefore is included under sacred doctrine as under one science.
September 29 at 6:12am · Like
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Joshua Kenz How about this: Thomas properly divides theology materially (concerning God, creature proceeding from God, the reditus to God, i.e. Christ and race).
He only quasi-formally divides it, e.g. into speculative and practical, ie. "dogmatic" and moral. Formal, beause the speculative and practical are formally distinct, but quasi-, because in theology they are unified because of the object, namely God and (secondary object) the creature as related to God. And even then, such a division, if in Aquinas at all, is not explicit and is more centered in the material division than a formal one.
Positive and systematic would divide it into "investigation of revealed truths" and "theological conclusions/deductive reasoning" but it seems that this is like treating the Definitions and Postulates of Euclid as one science, and the propositions as another. Insofar as positive theology often proceeds historically, it perhaps is like dialectics in discovering the first principles?
Now you suggesting apologetics, e.g., to be seen as a theological art?
Would you distinguish, e.g., the "apologists" of the 2nd century, i.e. the Church Fathers of that century, from apologetics as say Catholic answers does it? One division I saw placed it as a subdivision of fundamental theology, namely as a narrowing of the study of revelation considered generically.
But maybe it can be said that the apologetics of the Fathers, or perhaps of a Robert Bellarmine, involved doing some actual theology, insofar as the principles of theology were investigated, explained and argued from, but insofar as apologetics is polemical, and has its aim not at the discovery of truth, but the defense of it from assailants, that is not theology, but an art that makes more or less use of theology?
In which case, something like Catholic Answers would be even further removed from theology, as they, at their best, only present scriptural/patristic authorities for magisterial teachings, while certainly avoiding theological conclusions and at best doing a minimal exposition of the sources, and not so much of the principles themselves?
September 29 at 6:12am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Michael, this in particular pertains to your question:
"Sacred doctrine does not treat of God and creatures equally, but of God primarily, and of creatures only so far as they are referable to God as their beginning or end. Hence the unity of this science is not impaired."
I, Q. 1, a. 3 ad. 1
September 29 at 6:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "But maybe it can be said that the apologetics of the Fathers, or perhaps of a Robert Bellarmine, involved doing some actual theology, insofar as the principles of theology were investigated, explained and argued from, but insofar as apologetics is polemical, and has its aim not at the discovery of truth, but the defense of it from assailants, that is not theology, but an art that makes more or less use of theology?"
This seems more or less correct to me.
September 29 at 6:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It also seems reasonable to understand the division of positive and systematic to be something like what you propose. Maybe it is a dialectic.
The difficulty is it is not a real division of the object but, apparently, our mode of approach to the object.
September 29 at 6:18am · Like
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Joshua Kenz With all this in mind, while Whine-booger obviously gives a bad rep to Christendom student (several of whom I befriended in Virginia and were not idiotic by any means), a glance over their theological courses sows an extreme emphasis on "positive theology" The core curriculum is nothing but positive theology, and at that mostly centered in symbolic theology (the pronouncements of dogma), even in the context of the two courses on scripture (none on the fathers).
For a theology major, you could have only 2 courses in "systematic theology" and those would be the Trinity and Incarnation. You could have more, there is a lot of room for choice, but there isn't an ordering to it as befits a science. Doronzo remarked that the breadth of theology increased because of fragmentation, where each doctor became a specialist (this one in systematic theology of the Trinity, this one is positive scriptural theology, etc), but that the depth suffered for it. In anycase, I met some of the professor there, they were solid enough...but it does look like that fragmentation of theology that has been so problematic in having depth. For a bright student, that can be a hindrance overcome easily enough with discipline...but for a bad student, it can be the confirmation of theology as a set of propositions taught by the magisterium, without any understanding of the same.
One might think TAC could be improved with ever so little adding magisterial guidance Freshman year in fairness...
September 29 at 6:26am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz That seemed to me an issue at the DSPT too...that and not studying philosophy in the proper order...something remediable by a student or an advisor who knows better and cares., but still an issue.
September 29 at 6:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is why I plan to start a graduate school.
September 29 at 6:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So be sure you get your doctorate.
September 29 at 6:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am hoping that things will get rolling in 10-12 years.
September 29 at 6:50am · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, the unity of the science isn't impaired, but that is a pretty extended sense of "one"
September 29 at 7:17am · Like
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Michael Beitia chemistry, biology and physics are all the same science in that they have knowledge of the created world as their object.
September 29 at 8:44am · Like
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John Ashman "Isak Benedict Least I never told anybody to go to hell..."
AII is fair in Iove, war and king of the thread.
I want the stats on how many times the word "idiot" has been used in tNET versus in the BibIe.
September 29 at 10:32am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think moral theology does have God as its object. Its first principles are the Church's infallible interpretation of revelation pertaining, in part, to virtues, such as the Dogma that Faith, Hope and Charity are infused with Sanctifying grace.
September 29 at 10:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia tag-trolling!
September 29 at 10:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg What does that mean?
September 29 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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John Ashman WWF, baby!
September 29 at 10:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia I thought moral theology was "what ought man to do"?
September 29 at 10:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Moral theology is "What is revealed about man and his operations by God?"
September 29 at 10:43am · Like
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Michael Beitia like metaphysics:theology::ethics:moral theology
September 29 at 10:44am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman and by this I mean, "what has GOd revealed to us about how man ought to act.
September 29 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think there is something to that proportion.
September 29 at 10:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I capitalized the O, in God to emphasize the notion of action...
September 29 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It wasn't a typo.
September 29 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I promise.
September 29 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think how man ought to act is definitely a part of it. It has a lot to do with grace also. I find thelogy can be very difficult in the socratic method or without a really good professor teaching.
September 29 at 10:47am · Like
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John Ashman One wouId assume it naturaIIy ecompasses both, but it often cIaims one whiIe doing another. Or more probIematic, It generaIIy works backwards to get the Scripture to say what they want it to say. Much as how we "interpret" the Constitution to day. With the misuse of that document over 200 years, imagine the Ieeway miIIennia gives you.
September 29 at 10:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Unless of course there was a divinely inspired interpreter to keep us from doing just that.
September 29 at 10:48am · Like · 2
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John Ashman That's the assertion.
September 29 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yep.
September 29 at 10:49am · Like
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Scott Weinberg And I know this may sound odd, but the Magisterium is the only theologian you can trust. I think we see progressively greater clarity of revelation through the ages in the Church's teaching. It is a slow moving theology in action, but this gives us time to catch up.
September 29 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I find theology to be difficult even with a good professor. But I agree with you about this: finally a lecture method is a safer and more efficient way to learn theology.
September 29 at 10:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I think that thinking of the Magisterium is a really helpful analogy.
September 29 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "The Church as Theologian."
September 29 at 10:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia with its own internal dialectic
September 29 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia lecture is probably the most efficient way of learning anything. It is much more mathematically efficient than watching a classmate fail at a chalk board.
September 29 at 10:58am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you're at ITI, right, Daniel?
September 29 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Yes.
September 29 at 11:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know of anyone who holds that the discussion method is the best method simpliciter.
September 29 at 11:00am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you and your German efficiency.....
September 29 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I do think that, given modern man, the discussion method has merits. In short, we are bad at listening unless we think we are going to get to talk soon. Also, we have short attention spans.
September 29 at 11:03am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Consequently, I think that TAC is wise to adopt the discussion method. The ITI uses the discussion method, but it is much more heavily guided. And this seems fitting.
September 29 at 11:05am · Like
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Michael Beitia there is less discussion at TAC when you're talking about upper level philosophy/theology classes as well. Especially if you had to suffer through Berquist
September 29 at 11:07am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Well, I assume you are being facetious about "suffering" Berquist. But yes, I think that is right.
September 29 at 11:11am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, actually not. but that's another story
September 29 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well... you did say that you are a jerk...
September 29 at 11:11am · Like
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Michael Beitia I prefer to say "irreconcilable personality differences"
September 29 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^That's what she said...
September 29 at 11:12am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia they did pull him off of my thesis defense after my adviser bitched
September 29 at 11:12am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I'm sorry.
September 29 at 11:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I shouldn't have said that.
September 29 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, I am glad that people were accommodating.
September 29 at 11:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, only 2254 comments. That's much more moderate.
September 29 at 11:13am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yeah.
September 29 at 11:13am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe In that case, I revoke my resolution to cut back
September 29 at 11:13am · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict We're all moderate people here.
September 29 at 11:13am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Intemperance only happens past 3,000
September 29 at 11:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia hey! I've got to be over 3K by now..... I can be intemperate!
September 29 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But Michael, you were here from the beginning. I didn't start until tNET was already the wonder of facebook. I probably have a more intemperate ratio of comments per time spent tNETing
September 29 at 11:15am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Hmmm... that's true.
September 29 at 11:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe On the other hand, I have considered and held back from making several "that's what she said" comments, so I am clearly more temperate than Daniel
September 29 at 11:17am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I hit the "your mom jokes" before we got to 2000.
September 29 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, we all knew that.
September 29 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Did we? Oh good.
September 29 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Has anyone tried going back to the beginning?
September 29 at 11:19am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahahaha no
September 29 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ain't no browser in the world could sustain that
September 29 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Once I tried to find an incriminating comment Michael made only a few thousand comments back. Even that much led to despair
September 29 at 11:20am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. The going back at 50 at a time is a pain.
September 29 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia especially because you were wrong, Samantha.
September 29 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the only time I have been wrong in the entire history of tNET was when I misspelled Caesar.
September 29 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^nope that's the third time
September 29 at 11:23am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia 1: Caesar
2: trying to incriminate me
3: your last comment
September 29 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have 1500 comments up so far.
September 29 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict So my plan is eventually to have this whole thing printed out on a giant roll of paper, and drive it around America in a painted school bus with my troupe of mimes and magicians and actors, displaying portions of it in every town we stop in.
September 29 at 11:23am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia more like print it on toilet paper
September 29 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Might even manage to start a new religion based on the esoteric teachings of TNET
September 29 at 11:24am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #tNETgnosis
September 29 at 11:24am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I'm SURE you could do that.
September 29 at 11:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict "TNET TP - wipe your butt in #stylegnosis"
September 29 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Are those really the only times you think I've been wrong?
September 29 at 11:24am · Like
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Michael Beitia no, but I like humor
September 29 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am bummed that I miss when out when Richard Delahide Ferrier and Katherine Gardner are on.
September 29 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, in your tNET travels, let me know if you come across Michael's many insulting comments against Jane Austen that he now claims he never made
September 29 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, you should be sad about that
September 29 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia never insulting.
September 29 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I have 2500 up.
September 29 at 11:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Despite the notion of "up" I have a distinct feeling of descending.
September 29 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I know, you liked a comment of mine from Saturday....
September 29 at 11:29am · Like
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Michael Beitia let's see if I can crash this "work" computer....
September 29 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Facebook's codes seems to be rather cumbersome. It should not be this slow.
September 29 at 11:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman As I descend I think we need to work toward a reconciliation between Isak Benedict and Scott.
September 29 at 11:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict I think we would all agree that Jane Austen is a pretty mediocre writer
September 29 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia nah, the crappy photoshop is funny
September 29 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I made it to 1150 and then - stop
September 29 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Daniel - you must be kidding.
September 29 at 11:36am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have 3,500 up and it is pretty sticky.
September 29 at 11:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well... kinda, Isak.
September 29 at 11:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But seriously, I just don't take seriously the silly stuff and appreciate what can be appreciated and I am pretty okay. As long as he doesn't insult women. But he has apologized and forgiven, so I say we should as well.
September 29 at 11:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It does help keep the TNET lively.
September 29 at 11:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman and all y'all tNETers out there are still damnable heretics. There is only TNET. One and eternal.
September 29 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict He hasn't apologized for anything! Definitely not for that nasty bullshit on my profile picture!
September 29 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict He's a cartoon character. A Looney Tunes. Of course I'm open to reconciliation with him. I show my love in the form of photoshop.
September 29 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 11:46am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I missed that about the profile pic.
September 29 at 11:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I'm sorry.
September 29 at 11:49am · Like
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Isak Benedict He made me cry
September 29 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict We're talking massive, body-racking sobs here
September 29 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Cause you're such a "Feeler"
September 29 at 11:51am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Well.
September 29 at 11:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't cry when he called me a "hip chick."
September 29 at 11:52am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman I will abandon my cause.
September 29 at 11:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because I am a stoical an emotionless "Thinker"
September 29 at 11:52am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I did not call you a "hip chick". I did not equate you with the loose woman in Eliot's poem either. I know you are a model of Catholic virtue, Samantha, a rose in the desert; a noble woman and mom.
September 29 at 12:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am no theologian. I just studied literature and the rhetoric of the Church. I do think it is important to point out flaws in approach to the Faith, and no offense intended.
September 29 at 12:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Linda?....Linda? where are you?
September 29 at 12:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, I'm just having fun here. Hip chick is not the worst thing to be called, really. I think you owe a couple others apologies, though.
September 29 at 12:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yep.
September 29 at 12:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I refuse to accept apologies. I like the feeling of outrage
September 29 at 12:07pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I do think it is problematic to define sacred theology as the rational demonstration of the proofs of God's existence. This limits sacred theology, and tends to support heterodoxy. It supports heterodoxy, because students of the Faith tend to pick articles of faith and place them into their syllogisms to support their positions, which is the opposite of assent. Sacred theology proceeds generally in a dialectical manner, I think, the sacred dogmas used as starting points. Not as opinion, though, in the natural dialectic. At least this is how Thomas appears to proceed. It seems to me that Aristotle blends dialectic (Topics) with persuasion (Rhetoric) quite well when he defines Rhetoric as the counterpart of dialectic; and this is how he Church teaches... The Church does not teach sacred theology in syllogisms.
September 29 at 12:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I agree with this: I do think it is problematic to define sacred theology as the rational demonstration of the proofs of God's existence
September 29 at 12:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no one defines "Sacred theology" this way
September 29 at 12:08pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman I disagree with this: Sacred theology proceeds generally in a dialectical manner, I think, the sacred dogmas used as starting points.
September 29 at 12:08pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg I am not sure how serious Isak is in his claim that I offended him, and how I offended him so deeply if in fact he is serious. I do not mind his little photoshops. They are not immoral. Please feel free to shed light on this if you wish.
September 29 at 12:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I agree with this: no one defines "Sacred theology" this way
September 29 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I disagree with this: The Church does not teach sacred theology in syllogisms.
September 29 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think Goyette, in his lecture, clearly defined it this way. As the rational demonstration of the pre-amble of the Faith, which he further defined as Thomas's five proofs. This was limiting, it seems to me, and the origin of heterodoxy.
September 29 at 12:15pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm still surprised Isak didn't put Scott's head on the flying spaghetti monster....
September 29 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I agree, sacred theology begins with its principles: the sacred Dogmas. It proceeds in a reasonable way, but not necessarily in a logical or strictly scientific way; but dialectically and rhetorically.
September 29 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I believe the Church only teaches natural theology in syllogisms, in the strict scientific sense. The rest is dialectical and rhetorical. The encyclicals are rhetorical and dialectical primarily.
September 29 at 12:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, that's only the modern encyclicals. Earlier encyclicals were purely definitive
September 29 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia see also Unam Sanctam
September 29 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Definitive is not necessarily syllogistic.
September 29 at 12:14pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma A theological syllogism takes one premise from natural reason, one from sacred revelation. By it's very definition it cannot be "pure reason" but admits that reason is useful. I think there are some who would have us become Baptists and turn our reason off, because its, you know, not theological.
September 29 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you're right Scott. (take a screen shot, I typed that) definitive is definitely not dialectical.
September 29 at 12:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Further, I believe the preambles of the Faith are all natural and all syllogistic. This is natural theology.
September 29 at 12:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think you are a good man, Beitia. Screen shot moment.
September 29 at 12:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia liar
September 29 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia <----jerk
September 29 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg no, I swear.
September 29 at 12:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ha
September 29 at 12:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see, even when you say something nice you're still wrong
September 29 at 12:21pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Scott, are you calling arguments from fittingness, dialectical?
September 29 at 12:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Erik, so would this be a theolgical syllogism:
The whole is greater than the part
The whole of the deposit of the faith is Revelation AND the Church's interpretation of revelation
Therefore, the deposit of the faith is greater than the pre-amble of the faith
September 29 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe arguments from fittingness are weaker than dialectical
September 29 at 12:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not in theology.
September 29 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe always
September 29 at 12:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not in theology.
September 29 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think arguments from fittingness are rhetorical. By dialectical I was meaning the kind at the beginning of the Topics. It uses the prevalent wisdom as its stating point. But it this case, it uses Dogma. You see this in the encyclicls and I think in the development of doctrine over time via the ordinary magisterium, one Pope referring to his predecessor or a finding at a previous council, to begin the argument and develop it further.
September 29 at 12:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Argument from authority is the weakest form of argument, according to Boethius
September 29 at 12:26pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I think that is correct, Daniel, a rhetorical argument from fittingness can be very strong theologically.
September 29 at 12:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe arguments from fittingness assume we have a very robust knowledge of what God would and would not do, and also that we know what the possibilities involved are.
September 29 at 12:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^I agree.
September 29 at 12:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But some things are revealed as fitting.
September 29 at 12:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sure, you guys all believe IC because of authority, not really because of weak fittingness arguments
September 29 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, why must theology be confined to magisterial teaching?
September 29 at 12:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If it hadn't been dogmatically defined I'm sure we'd be arguing the heck out of the subject.
September 29 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ...actually I think the arguments from fittingness are really strong, and in fact compelling.
September 29 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But you are right, that it would be argued without being defined.
September 29 at 12:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Theology does not mean concluding something new.
September 29 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isn't "the fullness of time" a nod to fittingness?
September 29 at 12:33pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia aren't half of what's in St. Paul nods to fittingness arguments?
September 29 at 12:34pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I think some of Scott's positions seem to depend on this notion that doing theology means developing doctrine, and studying it means learning what has been so defined.
September 29 at 12:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe no
September 29 at 12:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia God forbid!
September 29 at 12:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe give me an example of what you are thinking of, Michael Beitia
September 29 at 12:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not saying God doesn't act in a way that is fitting, obviously. Just that arguments from what we think God out to do are weak
September 29 at 12:36pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I just did
September 29 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "half of what's in St. Paul" doesn't count as an example
September 29 at 12:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, "God forbid"
September 29 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and I don't think the "fulness of time" works, because there's no argument being presented there
September 29 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ...not an argument
September 29 at 12:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, it shows that it is fitting because it was the fullness of time. It was unfitting because "God forbid" it's not a huge point
September 29 at 12:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman From Ephesians 1:9-11 or so:
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration SUITABLE to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
September 29 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman suitable = fitting
September 29 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm too lazy to look up quotes
September 29 at 12:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Paul is defining doctrine, there, not making an argument for what doctrine should be
September 29 at 12:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.…(1Cor. 11:7)
September 29 at 12:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe which he can do, because he is an apostle
September 29 at 12:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He is defining doctrine from fittingness.
September 29 at 12:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the force of what he is defining comes from what has been revealed to him, not from a fittingness argument
September 29 at 12:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This, again, is my point: We are not saying "a priori, 'this' is fitting therefore etc."
September 29 at 12:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Again, I'm not saying that there aren't things that are fitting. But I think we can only really know them through revelation, not through argument, except in really obvious cases, where a fittingness argument isn't really necessary
September 29 at 12:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We are saying, "This has been revealed. It is fitting because x,y,z. This shows more about who God is.
September 29 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And I'm saying, fittingness arguments are weak.
September 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe doesn't really contradict that last thing you said
September 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not in theology.
September 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "fittingness arguments are weak, because it is unfitting for a demonstration"
September 29 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps we should be clear about what a weak argument is.
September 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe why is theology different?
September 29 at 12:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I understand a weak argument as one that fails to move the mind to assent.
September 29 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is this correct?
September 29 at 12:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yeah, sure
September 29 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I suppose there could be some variation of degree, more or less.
September 29 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe there certainly is.
September 29 at 12:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, when I argue that it was fitting the God become man because through the Incarnation there is a recapitulation of creation, does that really not move your intellect?
September 29 at 12:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^There are other reasons that it is fitting.
September 29 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe not to assent. my intellect is moved to assent by the revelation of that fact through Scripture
September 29 at 12:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you don't seem to be talking about fittiness *arguments*
September 29 at 12:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Here is what is at issue then: By faith, your will is moved to assent to the truth of a proposition.
However, by making an argument that terminates in a truth already held by faith, my mind can assent to the correctness of argument and its truth.
September 29 at 12:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The certainty I have in the argument is derived not from natural principles, but from revealed truth.
September 29 at 12:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe is there fittingness in the way God acts? Absolutely! Is the way God acts knowable to us in a way that we can make conclusive arguments about the way he ought to have acted? Nope.
September 29 at 12:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I can make arguments to see how the way God acted is reasonable.
September 29 at 12:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think we're equivocating here.
September 29 at 12:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why I tried to be very clear.
September 29 at 12:50pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick St Paul's argument that women should be veiled while at prayer is an argument from fittingness... not to open a different can of worms or anything
September 29 at 12:50pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am not questioning that you believe that God acts in a fitting way.
September 29 at 12:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just think you want theological arguments to always conclude to a further truth, but that is not what happens all the time.
September 29 at 12:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman By seeing arguments from reason about the fittingness of the Incarnation, I better conform my mind to God.
September 29 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Lauren, I tried to merely hint at that.
September 29 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 12:55pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Isak, that last one is just wrong...!
September 29 at 12:56pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman "We preach Christ crucified! Foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews."
We see, by arguments, that it is fitting that in the fullness (i.e. the fitting) of time, God sent His Only Begotten Son, to suffer and die and rise again.
Not only do I hold that Christ crucified is fitting as a proposition of faith, but I also see arguments
September 29 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ...that that is the case.
September 29 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Here is what I mean by "fittingness argument." An argument that proceeds to a conclusion, not already known through other means, based on assertions about what God ought to have done.
September 29 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The thing about head coverings is not a fittingness argument in this sense. Though I think it is, in fact, pretty weak when considered simply as an argument.
September 29 at 1:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, that is the problem Samantha.
September 29 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Such fittingness arguments would be weak, depending.
September 29 at 1:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman My point is that theology can use fittingness arguments so that they are not, so.
September 29 at 1:07pm · Like
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Joel HF A friend posted this on FB and it seems fitting for this thread (see how topical I just made it?) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Giant-flesh-eating-leech....
September 29 at 1:07pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Theology can likewise use arguments from authority that are certain, like from Scripture.
September 29 at 1:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think the "arguments" you're describing are really arguments, but that is tangentially to our fittingness disagreement
September 29 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But theology can also use arguments from authority that are less certain, such as from Origen.
September 29 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "The stars twinkle because they are far away."
September 29 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia arguments in Theology are not always the same as demonstrations in the mathematical sense.
September 29 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Obviously. And they can be more and less strong, and fittingness arguments are among the least.
September 29 at 1:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I think you all actually agree with me.
September 29 at 1:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No.
September 29 at 1:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think you actually agree with us.
September 29 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Let me explain.
September 29 at 1:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Interesting points, but at the same time a giant leech can swallow a 70 cm (70cm!) long earthworm. Since this exists below the lunar sphere, it is fitting that it exist in a higher way above. Therefore Ouroboros exists.
September 29 at 1:19pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF ^Argument from fittingness.
September 29 at 1:19pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ^^ weak
September 29 at 1:19pm · Like
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Isak Benedict As above, so below. Very gnostic, fittingness.
September 29 at 1:19pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF You didn't even watch the video, did you Samantha?
September 29 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #Ouroborosgnosis
September 29 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm eating.
September 29 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia a giant earthworm!?
September 29 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Hopefully not pasta.
September 29 at 1:21pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe no.
September 29 at 1:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't eat pasta. I'm gluten-free/paleo.
September 29 at 1:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahaha just kidding
September 29 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe it's pasta
September 29 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia gluten free is the Arianism of the 21st century
September 29 at 1:24pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Jeff Neill Is anyone saying that fitting ness is said about the unknown or just an after the fact "yeah God did it the best possible way" :shocker:
September 29 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia huh. the earthworm kind of looks like the black bean pasta I saw at the store the other day..... kind of bluish black
September 29 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff-- I'm saying that ^^^ is what you guys all really think about fittingness
September 29 at 1:25pm · Like
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Joel HF The video is epic. Everyone should watch it.
September 29 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Beitia, you got between my arrows and Jeff's point
September 29 at 1:26pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #tnetgnosis
September 29 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 1:28pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Well, it is fitting that gluten-free pasta looks like an earthworm, no?
September 29 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I do not believe that sacred theology must be confined to magisterial teaching (catechesis), but only the first principles must be sacred dogma. From these first principles, it can proceed dialectically and in a speculative manner. This is how theological discussion proceeds, or so it seems to me. This is how revelation is illumined by the sacred science, more and more as we move through time, and through the Magisterium as theologian. But in order that speculative theology not got astray and fall into heterodoxy or idle speculation, it is important to proceed in a manner befitting the sacred science, which includes an outlay of the sacred first principles, and an understanding of the demonstrative form of sacred science. I think sometimes when we reduce sacred theology to merely the rational proofs of God, for instance, this obscures the full and glorious meaning of faith seeking understanding.
September 29 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe.
Given: God sent His Son into the world.
& God wanted to redeem man
Prove: How it is fitting that God sent His Son into the world.
1st.
M: All acts of God are fitting.
m: sending his son into the world is an act of God.
C: It is fitting that God sent his Son into the world.
M: To redeem man a God-man was needed
m: A God-man could only be had if God sent His Son into the world.
C: God sent His Son into the world to redeem man
I could never make the second argument (particularly the Major premise) without the first.
The second argument, is, in fact, an argument from fittingness. Nevertheless, it gives a further insight into the God. Something new has been added, but not concluded.
September 29 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg It does not convince the whole person though. So it is a useless argument.
September 29 at 1:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg By fittingness I thought you meant rhetorical appropon.
September 29 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't understand this:It does not convince the whole person though. So it is a useless argument.
September 29 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg First of all, I did not mean to insult.
September 29 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No one does this: I think sometimes when we reduce sacred theology to merely the rational proofs of God, for instance, this obscures the full and glorious meaning of faith seeking understanding.
September 29 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I do not feel insulted.
September 29 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is hard to be cordial in facebook comments.
September 29 at 1:38pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Your syllogisms do not seem to me to be theological arguments. They are riddles.
September 29 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I presume upon your goodwill and expect your to do the same with me.
September 29 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Now I feel insulted.
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Just kidding.
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I would maintain that most all of theological cannot be reduced to the form of a syllogism.
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ha.
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you need more #syllophorgnosis
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But I think you are on to somethng.
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought I would at least get an "lol."
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #metagismicgnosis
September 29 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think the propensity is to regard sacred theology as a rational proof in syllogistic form. I would hold that this is not sacred theology, but metapysics.
September 29 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, if that were true, that would destroy Theology as a science and almost all that has been written by the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Wouldn't it?
September 29 at 1:41pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't think I gave rational proofs, if by that you mean "mere reason," as in, without revelation.
I think those are theological arguments that proceed from revealed premises to conclusions.
September 29 at 1:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, and it would also lead to heterodoxy. But I think this is what happens when students are taught that sacred theology is the ratonal proofs of the preamble. They tend to put all of the Faith and theology into this form, and it tends to lead to picking and choosing what premises you put into your syllogism to produce whatever kind of pre-conceived conclusion you want. It is heterodoxy; it is not faith seeking understanding.
September 29 at 1:44pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Aquinas puts almost all the Faith into syllogisms.
September 29 at 1:45pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I agee that sacred doctrine is revealed first principles, but the process is not syllogistic from there, it is dialectical and rhetorical; unless you ae speakig only of natural theology and the pre-ambles of the Faith, the rational proofs.
September 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thomas uses dialect principally.
September 29 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia here we gooooooooooo
September 29 at 1:45pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Edward Langley, I am interested in your thoughts about what I said about arguments from fittingness above.
September 29 at 1:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Well, just open up the Summa. Pick a page. It is in dialectial form. It is in the form descibed in Book 1 Ch. 1 of the Topics.
September 29 at 1:47pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Before we go on, Scott, we need to be very clear on something:
NO ONE HERE THINKS THAT THE PREAMBULA FIDEI ARE SACRED DOCTRINE PROPERLY SPEAKING.
The all caps is for emphasis. It does not mean yelling, or anger.
September 29 at 1:47pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Also, Aquinas is pretty explicit that Sacred Theology is a science in the Aristotelian sense, one that is subalternated to the "knowledge of God and the blessed".
September 29 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I hear you... but just so you know... this is what Goyette says it is in his lecture, it seems very clear.
September 29 at 1:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, please do not derail this conversation. Can we go back and discuss that later.
September 29 at 1:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am okay with John Goyette being wrong. I would be surprised if he says what you say he says, but I haven't listened to the lecture, and won't anytime soon.
September 29 at 1:49pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg OK, so you are wondering about fittingness?
September 29 at 1:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Syllogism from III, Q. 43a 2
I answer that, as stated in the FP, Question [110], Article [4], true miracles cannot be wrought save by Divine power: because God alone can change the order of nature; and this is what is meant by a miracle. Wherefore Pope Leo says (Ep. ad Flav. xxviii) that, while there are two natures in Christ, there is "one," viz. the Divine, which shines forth in miracles; and "another," viz. the human, "which submits to insults"; yet "each communicates its actions to the other": in as far as the human nature is the instrument of the Divine action, and the human action receives power from the Divine Nature, as stated above (Question [19], Article [1]).
September 29 at 1:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg "I answer that"... is dialectic in form. I agree, there are syllogisms within this form.
September 29 at 1:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Form of syllogism
M: Christ wrought miracles
m: miracles can be wrought by Divine Power alone
C: Christ wrought miracles by Divine Power
September 29 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I see what you are saying.
September 29 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He was writing according to the conventions of his time. That does not mean that he didn't think he was giving demonstrations.
September 29 at 1:54pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thomas is not the Magisterium. His theology is different in form the theological outlay of the Magisterium. He is, no doubt, the great theologian. But faith seeking understanding is greater than Thomas.
September 29 at 1:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Orthodox versus heterodox, it would seem anyone set of beliefs or practices when in reference to oneself is orthodox, but in relation to "the other" is heterodox.
Now I have family in other rites, but I always wondered why non-roman Catholic Churches feel compelled to put the word orthodox in the name, but clearly differ.
September 29 at 1:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes to this: Thomas is not the Magisterium. His theology is different in form the theological outlay of the Magisterium. He is, no doubt, the great theologian. But faith seeking understanding is greater than Thomas.
September 29 at 1:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But why did you say this?^
September 29 at 1:55pm · Like
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Joel HF Respondeo=dialectical?
September 29 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill It is a typical behavior of people in eastern churches to claim various teachings of anyone other than them as non-orthodox. (Not meant in an offensive way.... But I've never had a problem with the Filioque)
September 29 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I was simply responding to this point: [Any article from The Summa] is in dialectial form. It is in the form of the book of Topics.
September 29 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Thomas is definitely giving demonstrations. I said this because it seems to me that some teach that the Catholic Faith and what Thomas taught are universally convertible. This is close to being true, but not quite.
September 29 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh wait! I did here that talk by Goyette!!! It is the same one he gave at the SATS conference.
September 29 at 1:58pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman No he doesn't say what you say he says!
September 29 at 1:59pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Not convertible, but what Thomas teaches is part of the teachings of the Church, insofar as Thomas is a theologian of the Church and submitted his work to the teaching authority of the Church
September 29 at 1:59pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Regardless, Thomas is still a theologian doing theology, right? And...using syllogisms!
September 29 at 2:00pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Well, it sure sounds like that's what Goyette says. He says sacred theology is the rational demonstration of the pre-ambles which are Thomas's five proofs. Firstly, the pre-amble is broader tat Thomas's proofs. Secondly, obviously sacred theology is broader that Thomas.
September 29 at 2:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Magisterial:
Among the Scholastic Doctors, the chief and master of all towers Thomas Aquinas, who, as Cajetan observes, because "he most venerated the ancient doctors of the Church, in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of all."(34) The doctrines of those illustrious men, like the scattered members of a body, Thomas collected together and cemented, distributed in wonderful order, and so increased with important additions that he is rightly and deservedly esteemed the special bulwark and glory of the Catholic faith
September 29 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I agree that, simply speaking, the Catholic Faith and what Thomas taught are not convertible. However, it is pretty close.
From the liturgy on Aquinas' feast the Collect prayer says, "May we learn what he taught." This is the only Doctor where the prayer says this. All others are about imitating their learning and devotion and stuff.
September 29 at 2:01pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Joel, but the central form of sacred theology is NOT a rational syllogism.
September 29 at 2:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And a Saint and Doctor of the Church, Michael Beitia, precisely for the Summa.
September 29 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia YUP
September 29 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman We would have to give the Goyette lecture more time elsewhere.
September 29 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's why I quoted Leo XIII
September 29 at 2:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thomas is definitely the model, but be clear, sacred theology of the Catholic Faith is broader that what he taught, and NOT the Summa.
September 29 at 2:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't see why not: "but the central form of sacred theology is NOT a rational syllogism."
September 29 at 2:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If the syllogism were the central form of sacred theology, then faith and revelation would be knowable like a Euclidian proposition.
September 29 at 2:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^doesn't follow
September 29 at 2:05pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg This is why Thomas's syllogisms are placed in a broader dialectical form.
September 29 at 2:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where do we get the definitions, postulates etc for Euclid?
September 29 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Scott, I think you're confusing Sacred Theology with the gift of Faith or something.
September 29 at 2:06pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Big Angry, I don't object to exploring ways in which the actions of God known through revelation are fitting. That's not what I mean by"fittingness argument, " nor is that what is usually meant by the term, I think.
September 29 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Most people who get to heaven probably get to heaven, never having learned Sacred Theology.
September 29 at 2:07pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Does so follow. Syllogisms produce certain scientific knowledge. Only natural theology (the pre-amble) is like this. The rest is not. Hence, the syllogism is not the form of the portion of revelation which cannot be known by reason alone. To say so, collapses theology and faith into rational demonstration.
September 29 at 2:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope ^does not follow^
September 29 at 2:07pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg When Thomas says theology is a science in the strict sense he is speaking of the preamble only... his five proofs.
September 29 at 2:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where do we get the definitions etc. for Euclid?
September 29 at 2:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sacred Theology is a very particular study which puts all the dogmas of the Faith into a rational order by the aid of the totality of human learning.
September 29 at 2:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Michael, to say it does not follow does not mean it dos not follow.
September 29 at 2:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, that's precisely what he's not talking about.
September 29 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ed: reasonable order yes. Rational order no. Geometry has a rational order. Natural theology has a rational order. Sacred theology has a reasonable order, not a rational one.
September 29 at 2:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia where do we get the definitions, postulates, etc for Euclid?
September 29 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Really? :"When Thomas says theology is a science in the strict sense he is speaking of the preamble only... his five proofs."
September 29 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't see the distinction you're making, Scott.
September 29 at 2:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^This seems untrue.
September 29 at 2:10pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg So here we collapse into the typical TAC obfuscations... I have to run. In essence you are reducing sacred theology and "faith seeking understanding" to a rational, scientific demonstration. To hold that supernatural revelation can be known in this way and in this manner is a heresy. Ponder what I said, and I look forward to more of Isak's photoshopping. God bless.
September 29 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman De Trinitate Q. II a 2
I answer that, since the essence of science consists in this, that from things known a knowledge of things previously unknown is derived, and this may occur in relation to divine truths, evidently there can be a science of divine things.
But knowledge of divine truths can be thought of in two ways. In one way, as on our part, such truths are not knowable except from created things, of which we have a knowledge derived from sense experience. In another way, on the part of the nature of these things themselves, they are, in themselves, most knowable; and although they are not known by us according to their essences, they are known by God and by the blessed according to their proper mode;
and so science of divine things must be considered in a twofold manner. One is according to our mode of knowledge, in which knowledge of sensible things serves as the principle for coming to a knowledge of divine; and it was in this way that the philosophers handed down a traditional science of divine things, calling first philosophy a divine science. The other mode is according to that of divine things themselves as they are understood in themselves. This is, indeed, a mode of knowledge which we cannot possess perfectly in this life; but there is for us, even in this life, a certain participation and assimilation to such a cognition of divine truth, inasmuch as through the faith which is infused into our souls we adhere to the very First Truth on account of Itself.
And as God, since He knows Himself, knows in a way that is His own, that is, by simple intuition, not by discursive thought, so we, from those truths that we possess in adhering to First Truth, come to a knowledge of other truths, according to our own mode of cognition, namely, by proceeding from principles to conclusions. Wherefore, those truths that we hold in the first place by faith are for us, as it were, first principles in this science, and the other truths to which we attain are quasi-conclusions. From this it is evident that this science is of a higher order than that which the philosophers traditionally termed divine, since it proceeds from higher principles.
September 29 at 2:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Scott, you should go back to the De Trinitate.
September 29 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the matter for Euclidean deductions (props, geometry, whatever) is pre-Euclidean.
The matter for Theology, is revealed truths.
September 29 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman A lot of your objections would be resolved there.
September 29 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Damn. He left.
September 29 at 2:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course he did.
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Everyone else, reread De Trinitate and be ready.
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Yeah, he generally runs off about now.
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman At least have the link ready.
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman http://www.dhspriory.org/thomas/BoethiusDeTr.htm#22
Thomas Aquinas: On Boethius' De Trinitate: English
DHSPRIORY.ORG
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, i have to go clean the Castle Cellar.
September 29 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well, I'm at "work" so I'll be here all day....
September 29 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm just waking up.
September 29 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Grinding my coffee, etc.
September 29 at 2:16pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Just waking up!?
September 29 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I think the kind of argument that Samantha is objecting to is something like this:
It would be unfitting for God to create rational animals not descended from Adam, therefore aliens are not real.
Or: It would be unfitting for God to create a world with a deceptive appearance, therefore Gosse's Omphalos hypothesis is wrong.
September 29 at 2:18pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Yes. ^
September 29 at 2:18pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund That's a form of argument that gets used a lot in "apologetics."
September 29 at 2:18pm · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante scare quotes well deserved
September 29 at 2:19pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I wish you were around for our discussion on apologetics Pater.
September 29 at 2:19pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Or.... Anything known after the fact to say "yes, of course that is true and most fitting.... <insert any random item of revelation> makes complete sense. Therefore we should have known all along that the butler did it"
September 29 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I contended that apologetics, at best, is an art in service of theology. Much like the art of logic stands to the science... except less useful.
September 29 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I am curious to causation. What motivates attacks of claimed heretical views and distaste for "western civilization". Why does a Canadian by birth leave the Roman Catholic faith for an eastern church (which no doubt has a beautiful and traditional Liturgy.).
When making this change of church, what other distinctions were created in the mind, how firmly does one hold to these "orthodox" distinctions?
September 29 at 2:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill This is not a rational discussion but one of psychology. Why does a person hold a belief not "what is the belief"
September 29 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Many orthodox rites have a strong push for sacred theology as a piano recital of "this is the orthodox view" since it uses it as revealed truth.
The IC and Filioque have always been two strong points between Eastern Orthodox and the rite in communion with the church, having accepted the dogma, they don't make any questions regarding it since the Eastern Orthodox still do and the strong unquestioning attachment is their distinctive quality.
As an adopter of the rite, a person may make unreasonable strong attachments to their newly found faith.
September 29 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Next 10:
720 Peregrine Bonaventure
664 Jehoshaphat Escalante
601 Jeff Neill
556 Jeffrey Bond
448 John Boyer
430 Daniel P. O'Connell
402 Pater Edmund
381 Catherine Ryland
327 John Ashman
286 Jody Haaf Garneau
263 Nina Rachele
September 29 at 2:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg DOGMA: Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith.
Sacred theology has been described as faith seeking understanding. Therefore, the beginning of sacred theology are the principles of supernatural grace; and not self-evident first principles of a lower science.
If we assent in spirit to the sacred dogmas, our knowledge and understanding of God is by analogy, hence the sacred is not known in the same way that we say we know by natural reason, or with the same kind of certainty produced by a scientific syllogism. Yet we know by faith with even greater conviction -- with our heart and mind and spirit -- and we seek greater understanding of the supernatural mysteries. This pursuit is eminently reasonable, but can and should never be reduced to syllogistic reasoning. Hence, the syllogistic forms used by Thomas in his treatise on the Trinity, to the extent that this treatise begins with and treats of supernatural revelation, do not produce that same kind of scientific certitude as found in philosophy. But only by analogy. However, the form of the presentation is eminently reasonable.
September 29 at 2:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley I answer that, Sacred doctrine is a science. We must bear in mind that there are two kinds of sciences. There are some which proceed from a principle known by the natural light of intelligence, such as arithmetic and geometry and the like. There are some which proceed from principles known by the light of a higher science: thus the science of perspective proceeds from principles established by geometry, and music from principles established by arithmetic. So it is that sacred doctrine is a science because it proceeds from principles established by the light of a higher science, namely, the science of God and the blessed. Hence, just as the musician accepts on authority the principles taught him by the mathematician, so sacred science is established on principles revealed by God.
September 29 at 2:53pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Objection 1: It seems that sacred doctrine is not a science. For every science proceeds from self-evident principles. But sacred doctrine proceeds from articles of faith which are not self-evident, since their truth is not admitted by all: "For all men have not faith" (2 Thess. 3:2). Therefore sacred doctrine is not a science.
Reply to Objection 1: The principles of any science are either in themselves self-evident, or reducible to the conclusions of a higher science; and such, as we have said, are the principles of sacred doctrine.
September 29 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley On the contrary, Augustine says (De Trin. xiv, 1) "to this science alone belongs that whereby saving faith is begotten, nourished, protected and strengthened." But this can be said of no science except sacred doctrine. Therefore sacred doctrine is a science.
September 29 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (And, may St. Thomas forgive me for butchering his order)
September 29 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I answer that Sacred doctrine is not a science. Sacred theology is the science; and sacred doctrines are the principles of that science. The principles are known only by supernatural grace, not with rational certitude; hence, it proceeds by analogy of reason; ie. reasonably.
September 29 at 2:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley "sacra doctrina" is the latin expression that is often construed as "sacred theology" in English
September 29 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Well, we are in agreement on that name.
September 29 at 2:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley "doctrina" basically just means "teaching" or something like that.
September 29 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It begins with first principles.
September 29 at 2:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Known by supernatural grace.
September 29 at 2:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg As opposed to self-evident first principles.
September 29 at 2:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Such as those used in the pre-ambles of natural theology, or geometry.
September 29 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought more progress would have been made.
September 29 at 3:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And leads to an expansion of conclusions and truths known by faith in a reasonable way; and in this way we grow in faith... our faith grows in understanding.
September 29 at 3:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg We may be at an impasse. A fork in the road. I say you cannot know the principles of faith nor its conclusions in the same way you know something that can be known with certainty by reason alone.
September 29 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 3:03pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Scott and the rest of TNET at an impasse? No! Say it ain't so!
September 29 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This difficulty does seem to keep coming up: I say you cannot know the principles of faith nor its conclusions in the same way you know something that can be known with certainty by reason alone.
September 29 at 3:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know how better to argue it.
September 29 at 3:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Many pixels were spilt about that difficulty, above.
September 29 at 3:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Can one spill a pixel?
September 29 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger What don't you peopld understand? Thomas is not the magisterium. Scott is.
September 29 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg I know I am not the Magisterium, but I think I've learned my ABCs. We cannot know the supernatural deposit of faith in the same way we know things of reason, but only by analogy of reason.
September 29 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Scott=Clifford; Isak=grouchy neighbor.
September 29 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As a license candidate in Theology, I must say I have never encountered anything in my studies that would incline me to think of theology in the way Scott proposes.
That being said, I think it is unfair to make a mockery of his position as he has defended it today. He has not put on airs of dogmatism in this current argument.
September 29 at 3:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Yet, Daniel, yet
September 29 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman We should let go of what happened above, or beyond, or wherever/however it is.
September 29 at 3:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Really Daniel?
September 29 at 3:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Natural theology produces scientific certitude.
September 29 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the conclusions are as certain or less certain than the premises, no?
September 29 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia in any order of knowing, no?
September 29 at 3:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman For what its worth (hint: probably not very much) I think you have stated your position reasonably. I think I understand your position better. However, I also think you are right to say that we are at an impasse.
September 29 at 3:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But theology derived from first principles that cannot be reasoned to -- but can only be known by supernatural grace -- is sacred; and is not a rational science. It is a sacred science. It uses reason by analogy.
September 29 at 3:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Objection 1: It seems that sacred doctrine is not a science. For every science proceeds from self-evident principles. But sacred doctrine proceeds from articles of faith which are not self-evident, since their truth is not admitted by all: "For all men have not faith" (2 Thess. 3:2). Therefore sacred doctrine is not a science.
Reply to Objection 1: The principles of any science are either in themselves self-evident, or reducible to the conclusions of a higher science; and such, as we have said, are the principles of sacred doctrine.
September 29 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have never seen this said about theology before: "It uses reason by analogy."
September 29 at 3:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Scott uses reason by analogy (forgive me I couldn't pass on that one)
September 29 at 3:14pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Michael, the premises of a rational science are self-evident to all men by reason. But the supernaturally revealed premises of sacred doctrine are known only by those who have assented to the gift of supernatural Faith from God.
September 29 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^I think this is true.
September 29 at 3:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sacred doctrine is a science. It just does not begin or end with truths that are rationally certfiable, as philosophy does.
September 29 at 3:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think we may be aying the same thing, but in two different ways.
September 29 at 3:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps.
September 29 at 3:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know what this means: "rationally certifiable"
September 29 at 3:17pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Natural theology -- the five proofs are part of that -- begins and ends with rational certitude. That is the kind of certainty that is produced by a scientific syllogism.
September 29 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott, strictly speaking, anyone can know and study the principles of sacred theology. One does not need faith.
September 29 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It means true in the scientific sense of the word.
September 29 at 3:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Michael, but they aren't really doing theology. It is like someone talking about metaphysics without having proved the existence of immaterial beings.
September 29 at 3:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg I don't think that's true, Michael. You need to believe what you study to understand it. This may not be true with somethings, but I think it is with sacred theology.
September 29 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia "doing" theology and "studying" theology are not the same
September 29 at 3:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sacred theology is a habit of the soul. It involves doing and studying and acting.
September 29 at 3:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not insofar as it is a science, or an object of study
September 29 at 3:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Caesar. [To the Soothsayer] The ides of March are come.
Soothsayer. Ay, Caesar; but not gone.
September 29 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It is because it involves feeling and imagining and thinking and salvation and virtue and sometimes we gain a better understanding of faith when we love.
September 29 at 3:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Was it Ed who said Scott was talking about faith and not doctrine?
September 29 at 3:23pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe that seems to be confirmed, now
September 29 at 3:24pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I don't think Scott undestands the following terms: metaphysics, the definition of faith and magisterium. He seems to reject the syllogism and therefore Thomas.
September 29 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I'm talking about sacred theology, Samantha... which gives us a kind of greater understanding of the supernatural Faith to which we have assented in our entire being. This is Faith seeking understanding.
September 29 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley It is the case that if one loses the gift of Faith, sacred theology ceases to be a science.
September 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The non-emotionally based people may not "feel" about faith. I prefer knowing what I can know; feelings are more base and common to lower creatures.
September 29 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley But that's because the light by which we see the principles of the science is the gift of Faith.
September 29 at 3:25pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Having granted the principles, everything in sacred theology proper proceeds syllogistically as it would in any other science.
September 29 at 3:26pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Sacred theology is broader than Thomas's scholasticism. Metaphysics is natural theology.
September 29 at 3:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley That is, one draws conclusions from what stands as "per se nota"
September 29 at 3:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott front loads his definitions, and defines opposing views away. that's why he continually restates the same thing
September 29 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's why we keep referring to him as "Pope" or whatever, because all of his statements are pronouncements
September 29 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Read this: Scholastic natural theology (metaphysics) proceeds, per se, syllogistically, Ed. Sacred theology does not. It neither begins with the same kind of principles nor ends with the same kinds of conclusions, not known in the same way, but by faith. If what you are saying is true, Ed, we would undrstand our Faith by reason alone; and of course this is not the case.
September 29 at 3:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it proceeds through love in the blooming of the growth of faith as a habit of soul, through being in one with the divine guided by magisterial hermeneutic. .
September 29 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, because two things go into understanding: the method and the content. The sciences of pure reason use a syllogistic method about matters we can see naturally. Sacred theology shares the syllogistic method but applies that method to the things we see by the gift of Faith.
September 29 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg And I know I am not the Pope, but I am just a Catholic laymen, a father of six and a federal liaison to the states of the heartland. I will always asent to what the Church teaches and strive to be fully and properly informed.
September 29 at 3:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #scottgnosis
September 29 at 3:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Thus, everything in sacred theology is demonstrated syllogistically, but since the principles aren't seen by man's natural light, the knowledge of the conclusions is not either.
September 29 at 3:40pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia that's what I've been saying all along
September 29 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (the apostrophe key and I have a weird relationship)
September 29 at 3:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ed, you forgot a third and fourth thing that go into understanding faith: supernatural gace and assent. I would maintain that what we know of this is not known by reason, nor is it known with the certitude of reason; though it is eminently reasonable. You may not reduce theology in its entirety to the preambles of faith.
September 29 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia the subject of his sentence is "everything in St. Thomas"
September 29 at 3:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley it actually was "Everything in Sacred Theology"
September 29 at 3:40pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I fixed the ambiguous abbreviation
September 29 at 3:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley And it also needs the qualification that "everything" really means "everything except the principles".
September 29 at 3:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Which could be justified by saying that the principles really aren't known by the habit of sacred theology but by the habit of faith since faith : sacred theology :: intellectus : knowledge)
September 29 at 3:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Intellectus is a distinct intellectual virtue from knowledge and thus, similarly, Faith is a distinct intellectual virtue from Sacred Theology.
September 29 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Is the conclusion that with ST we are more informed or less informed about theology?
September 29 at 3:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which is also evident from the fact that Faith is an infused virtue while Sacred Theology is an acquired virtue.
September 29 at 3:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not sure what your question means, Jeff.
September 29 at 3:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia banned: ST s.t. or s t : type it out ya lazy bastards
September 29 at 3:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The fact is when it comes from learning from a human perspective, as wrong as we may be about "truth" it is still useful education; for example Ptolemy is still used for celestial navigation.
September 29 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Beitia. You type on an iPhone.... Then come back just be thankful that I'm not using the "guess the next word to write function"
September 29 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia use speak to post. that should be entertaining.
September 29 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here is an example of sacred theology alive today. Sacred Theology did not end with Saint Thomas. In the example below, see how the Pontiff shies away from syllogism but instead -- after laying down principles we know by assent -- uses rhetoric and metaphor... such reasonable forms... formally smilar to the syllogism -- to show how faith has an act of love at its core. This is shedding new light on revelation:
These considerations on faith — in continuity with all that the Church’s magisterium has pronounced on this theological virtue[7] — are meant to supplement what Benedict XVI had written in his encyclical letters on charity and hope. He himself had almost completed a first draft of an encyclical on faith. For this I am deeply grateful to him, and as his brother in Christ I have taken up his fine work and added a few contributions of my own. The Successor of Peter, yesterday, today and tomorrow, is always called to strengthen his brothers and sisters in the priceless treasure of that faith which God has given as a light for humanity’s path...
The word spoken to Abraham contains both a call and a promise. First, it is a call to leave his own land, a summons to a new life, the beginning of an exodus which points him towards an unforeseen future. The sight which faith would give to Abraham would always be linked to the need to take this step forward: faith "sees" to the extent that it journeys, to the extent that it chooses to enter into the horizons opened up by God’s word. This word also contains a promise: Your descendants will be great in number, you will be the father of a great nation (cf. Gen 13:16; 15:5; 22:17). As a response to a word which preceded it, Abraham’s faith would always be an act of remembrance. Yet this remembrance is not fixed on past events but, as the memory of a promise, it becomes capable of opening up the future, shedding light on the path to be taken. We see how faith, as remembrance of the future, memoria futuri, is thus closely bound up with hope...
For Abraham, faith in God sheds light on the depths of his being, it enables him to acknowledge the wellspring of goodness at the origin of all things and to realize that his life is not the product of non-being or chance, but the fruit of a personal call and a personal love. The mysterious God who called him is no alien deity, but the God who is the origin and mainstay of all that is. The great test of Abraham’s faith, the sacrifice of his son Isaac, would show the extent to which this primordial love is capable of ensuring life even beyond death.
September 29 at 3:49pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Otherwise using the "automatic writing" I'd get "sacred theology and sacred doctrine are the only thing that would make my phone to get my money and time consuming"
September 29 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott, what does that quote have to do with anything....
September 29 at 3:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley "faith has an act of love at its core"
Taken a certain way, that would lead to the conclusion that will absolutely precedes intellect. Also, I don't see how the Pope quote says what you say it does.
September 29 at 3:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ed, I think in faith, the assent of the will takes precedence over the intellect. Abraham "demonstrates" that. But what are you saying? Are you saying that because Thomas uses syllogisms in his treatise on the Holy Trinity that the Sacred Mystery of the Blessed Trinity is something that we know with reason?
September 29 at 4:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The quote from Lumen Fidei provides an example of an inquiry and demonstration of sacred theology that uses enthymemes and metaphors but not syllogisms. But what are you saying? Because you discovered syllogisms in Thomas, you seem to be saying we know the Trinity by reason.
September 29 at 4:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is this what you are saying?
September 29 at 4:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you saying that we know the mystery of the Trinity by reason because Thomas uses syllogisms?
September 29 at 4:06pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick No, that's not what is being said.
September 29 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So, what is being said then? That Thomas uses syllogisms to show the dogma of the Trinity is reasonable? Or because this was the manner and mode of the sythesis between faih and reason? What exactly is being said here?
September 29 at 4:10pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Scott, the only way what you're saying can work is if you posit a deeper intellectual faculty, call it "heart" or whatever, something like the old intellectus/ratio distinction, or Coleridge's understanding/reason distinction; I think among Catholic writers Maritain, Borella, and Caldecott (and Maximos and Bonaventure among the ancients, as I recall) go in this direction. But will in the normal sense cannot possibly precede the noetic moment, because one can only love what is seen as loveable in the first place, and seeing is noetic, not volitional or passional. So name and define a different and deeper mode of mind than the abstractive/discursive, if you wish, but don't say that will precedes intellect because that's absurd.
September 29 at 4:27pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Not even Scotus held that will preceded intellect.
September 29 at 4:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8TsL0DO-c1E
The Truth behind Christian Rock: according to Hank Hill (Season 8 Episode 2: Reborn...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 29 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'm just wondering what you guys are saying about the sacred Dogmas. Are you saing you can know the Dogma of the Trinity with reason because Thomas uses syllogisms in his treatise???
As for the mind's assent to grace, I do think it is an act of the will, an act of the soul, the intellect guided by the will out of love. Consider this maxim:
Always quench your academic thirst,
To know thy God, then always love Him first.
Love is an act of Faith. It require risk and trust. If you want to know God, love Him, if you want to love Him, love the poor...
September 29 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley If love preceded faith, then we would love something without even knowing that it exists in any sense of the term "know". Rather, traditionally, Faith precedes Love (i.e. Charity) as knowledge precedes the will.
September 29 at 4:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley As far as the dogma question goes, we're saying that Sacred Theology is not restricted to the things known immediately through the light of Faith.
September 29 at 4:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Rather, something known by the light of Faith can be taken as a premise of a syllogism and combined with something else we know as a second premise to draw a conclusion.
September 29 at 4:52pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Such conclusions are formally the objects of the intellectual virtue of Sacred Theology.
September 29 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "Love is an act of faith" - not in any strict use of the words....
September 29 at 4:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley For example:
The relation of the Second Person of the Trinity to the First is son-hood.
Son-hood implies identity of nature.
The Son and the Father have the same nature.
September 29 at 4:51pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aristotle certainly gives the will a kind of precedence over scientific ceritude in his Rhetoric, Ed. We are moved to do something by the reasonable appeal to will, not by a syllogism. I am not sure this means the same thing as you do, Ed, when you use the word "precedence." But certainly with faith, it seems the will guides the intellect to give assent. Consider Abraham whose will led his intellect in his sacrifice to God, even before he knew what the Covenant was. I would say this was a bad deal for Abraham's intellect, but still his brain was guided by love.
September 29 at 4:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg As for your syllogism, Ed, if the major premise is a Dogma that can be known by supernatural grace alone, such as that God is One in Three Divine Persons, and the minor premise is something we can really know by reason alone, would you say the conclusion may be held with scientific certainty by Reason? I would not. We would hold this by Faith, by our assent to the major premise, and our assent to the conclusion would be a reasonable.
September 29 at 5:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, but what moves the will to the assent of faith is very mysterious.
September 29 at 5:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley It cannot be an explicit love of God like Charity is.
September 29 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, it is very mysterious.
September 29 at 5:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What cannot be an explicit love of God like Charity is?
September 29 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley What moves the will to the assent of Faith.
September 29 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "would you say the conclusion may be held with scientific certainty by Reason?"
Yes I would because things held by faith are held with greater certitude than anything we hold by reason, even if we understand them less clearly.
September 29 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, in fact, it's the premise from natural knowledge that limits our certainty about the conclusions of Sacred Theology.
September 29 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Let's disagree on that. I do not believe you can jump from faith to reason like that. From a first principle known only by faith to a conclusion known by reason. That must be a heck of a middle.
September 29 at 5:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley The object of Faith is a proposition, not a concept. So there is no danger of equivocation on a middle term.
September 29 at 5:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley (I'm not sure exactly how strongly I'll insist on that, perhaps Faith also gives us greater clarity on our concepts in some way).
September 29 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Is there such a thing as Christian philosophy? (This may not be a controversial question in this group.)
September 29 at 5:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nope
September 29 at 5:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes
September 29 at 5:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Edward Langley, to be clear it is a disputed question whether a truth, deduced through strictly illative means, from one premise that is revealed and another of reason, can be considered revealed and defined as such. Some say yes, other say only if the major premise is of faith. Thomists generally say both premises must be revealed. Just thought that nuance should be mentioned.
Of course it remains that there are proper theological conclusions, some of which may be taught definitely by the Church, but that doesn't make them de fide, and others may be simply held as certain by theologians because of what the faith demands, without it being explicitly defined by the magisterium, let alone held as de fide.
September 29 at 5:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley How does that bear on the objects of Sacred Theology?
September 29 at 5:15pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe, say more
September 29 at 5:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can't. Later.
September 29 at 5:16pm · Like
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Joel HF Bah!
September 29 at 5:17pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Humbug!
September 29 at 5:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz "As far as the dogma question goes, we're saying that Sacred Theology is not restricted to the things known immediately through the light of Faith.
Rather, something known by the light of Faith can be taken as a premise of a syllogism and combined with something else we know as a second premise to draw a conclusion.
Such conclusions are formally the objects of the intellectual virtue of Sacred Theology."
Don't disagree. Just wanted to mention the disputed character of such conclusions in theology...
September 29 at 5:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Oh, as far as being objects of the virtue of Faith?
September 29 at 5:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz As far as being considered as having been revealed, yes. I think we had this discussion earlier
September 29 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell A perhaps irrelevant historical point: Thomas' own peculiar idea of theology as a science (on the model of a subaltern science relative to the science of the blessed) was by no means a majority view and, in fact, there were many who disagreed with this idea. That doesn't make it wrong, of course, but I think it should introduce a note of caution when saying "This is what theology is, because this is what Aquinas' model for theology was."
September 29 at 5:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I think Aeterni Patris and similar documents have basically confirmed Aquinas's understanding.
September 29 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Hm. Maybe. That's outside of my area of expertise.
September 29 at 5:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley At the very least, it would be foolish to dismiss Aquinas's conception of theology given how frequently the Church has held up Aquinas as a model theologian. (Supposedly every Pope since John XXII, who canonized him, has recommended the study of Aquinas).
September 29 at 5:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think the debate is an interesting one, historically and philosophically speaking. I also think that oftentimes TAC'ers have a distorted view of Aquinas and how tenuous his opinions were, for a long time. Never foolish to learn something about history.
September 29 at 5:31pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz No, we know full well how, not tenuous, but contentious many of his views were...that was because of the errors of his opponents, like the archbishop of Paris.
September 29 at 5:32pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Although, as early as 1275, his authority was recognized by the Dominican order
September 29 at 5:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and, arguably, even earlier: Roger Bacon complains somewhere that Albert and Aquinas were being cited by name in theological writings)
September 29 at 5:35pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Which was almost unheard of for a living person in Scholastic times.
September 29 at 5:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley (I get the 1275 date from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durandus_of_Saint-Pour%C3%A7ain)
Durandus of Saint-Pourçain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Durandus of Saint-Pourçain, also known as Durand of Saint-Pourçain (c. 1275 – 13 September 1332 / 10 September 1334), was a French Dominican, philosopher and theologian.
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 29 at 5:34pm · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley "Since Thomas Aquinas was held at a higher standing than any other doctor within the Dominican order, they were to defend and uphold his ideas predominately. This caused Durand to be criticized from one of the leading Dominican followers of Aquinas, Hervaeus Natalis. This was a doctoral quarrel and an illustration of the fourteenth -century doctoral tensions. It was at this time that Durandus of Saint-Pourçain set out to write his second commentary on the "Sentences", which he adhered more closely to Aquinas's way."
September 29 at 5:35pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Roger. And his complaint was well-founded.
So, let me get this straight: his "opponents" (who exactly?) were always in error? Do you know that by faith or by reasin?
September 29 at 5:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Oops, typing quickly.
September 29 at 5:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Tenuous implies there was little basis for his views. Au contraire, the "traditionalists" of those days were corrupted. The Incarnation is a great example where Aquinas was controversial because he went back to the traditional Christology, that had been distorted in the West (homo assumptus anyone).
I have a list of examples when arguing he wasn't novel. No, the opposition to him would be like the opposition to rejecting moralities of conscience or that fear of hell alone suffices for confession....it would seem like novelty now, but in reality I would be defending a much more traditional view...one obscured for centuries
September 29 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Durandus of Saint Pourçain's ideas were not well founded, in prticular his main beef with Thomas, namely his denial of divine simplicity
September 29 at 5:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz He denied that the Persons were the same in re as the Divine essence
September 29 at 5:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley (wrt. the condemnations of 1270, someone showed by matching up the questions in one of Aquinas's disputed questions (De Virtutibus?) with the school-year that some of those are explicit replies to those condemnations)
September 29 at 5:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And Durandus wrote a third commentary as bishop...freed from having to obey the common sense of the Order
September 29 at 5:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley I was citing Durandus as showing that Thomas was already a serious authority by 1275.
September 29 at 5:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just to be clear
September 29 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua is homo assumptus a settled question for RC? I thought that was technically still openended
September 29 at 5:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley (the set of questions I'm referring to has a question on the relation of the operation of the intellect to the operation of the will in which St. Thomas explicitly denies that the determination of the intellect necessitates a certain act of will. And that question seems out of place in the order of the questions.)
September 29 at 5:44pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante--is there such a thing as Christian philosophy? (And if so, obviously the question is then: what is it, and how does it differ from philosophy simpliciter?)
September 29 at 5:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel where's that question coming from? Did I say anything about Xtian philosophy?
September 29 at 5:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, Joel is trying to start a fight.
September 29 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
September 29 at 5:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Edward Langley is wise beyond his years.
September 29 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But I have to go to the free money machine and then pick up something.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think you're both Durandists.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and probably Scotists too.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley So, I'll let everyone else argue about these things.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like
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Joel HF But, the charitable reading is that I was curious (a) as to what you thought, and (b) what the consensus view would be in these parts.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm a Thomistic Cartesian
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just saying.
September 29 at 5:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel: quick answer: in a way yes, in a way no.
September 29 at 5:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz FWIW Langley I brought up that pedantic argument over what can be de fide on Aug 17 6:48 pm and again on Aug 28th starting at 7:58 am, and Langley and I got into it over what could be de fide (I was be contrarian then...dang it my cover is blown because I forgot I had taken a different position earlier for argument sake)
September 29 at 5:47pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF At this rate, I'll neve recreate the history of 20th century Thomistic disputes!
September 29 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell My point is a fairly simple one (and it may apply only to myself and others like me): If you're going to study Thomas Aquinas from the perspective of Medieval philosophy or the history of ideas or the history of theology/religion, you can't appeal to doctrinal authority (you have to work out his arguments in detail and carefully outline his positions), and if you're just reading Thomas and only Thomas (not Bonaventure, Bacon, Henry of Ghent and Scotus etc.), you're not going to truly understand him in his proper context (as a thinker of the latter half of the 13th c.). But I think we are pursuing different aims here.
September 29 at 5:48pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua talk to me about Christology
September 29 at 5:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah,I'm only accidentally interested in the Toronto Experiment (tm). I'll start taking it seriously when they start imitating the objects of their curiosity.
September 29 at 5:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley Mr O'Reilly gave a lecture in favor of Christian philosophy my junior year. But I think he meant something different from what the historicists mean.
September 29 at 5:54pm · Like
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John Ashman To Jesus, it was phiIosophy, to everyone eIse, it is 95% fact with 5% infighting over the detaiIs.
September 29 at 5:54pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Is anyone else getting two separate sets of notifications for when someone comments on TNET? How do I stop it?
September 29 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Sure, deIete your Peregrine account!
September 29 at 5:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Jehoshaphat Escalante, my understanding is that later authors, namely modern ones, argue that the homo assumptus language was meant in an orthodox sense, and spin it as meaning "humanam naturam assumere"
But no, many scotists still held the stupid idea of homo assumptus into the 17th century at least. They tried denying it led to Nestorianism of course. But I fail to see how. As did Aquinas, which is why he considered it heretical. I suppose with even the scotists abandoning it, one can argue the question is settled, insofar as the consensus of theologians was formed. While we don't like to talk about it today, the sensus fidelium and the sensus theologicorum remain, alongside the consensus of the Fathers, a theological locus and when there is moral unanimity and infallible witness to tradition, though the Theologians rank lower than the fathers.
So one could argue that a Catholic could not hold it, but as far as point to a Church document definitely saying you can't...no. So at best an argument can be made that it is not openened?
September 29 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Right now "John Ashman, Edward Langley and 30 others commented on a link Matthew J. Peterson shared" and "Joshua Kenz, John Ashman and 14 others also commented on Matthew J. Peterson's link" are my top two notifications. Anyone else getting both phrasings as well?
September 29 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Of course there is a question of "what is the homo assumptus" theory...e.g. High of St. Victor seems to hold it in a funny way (strict identity of the man and the 2nd person), whereas Scotus doesn't like that strict identification...but that is Scotus, and his "subtle" distinctions for you )
September 29 at 6:03pm · Like
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John Ashman Nope.
September 29 at 6:03pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Isak , I have that issue too. No clue why!
September 29 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua, I'm not sure I understand the debate. But it seems that Scotus's take on substantial form could allow him to assert homo assumptus without being Nestorian?
September 29 at 6:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So weird! Can't figure it out.
September 29 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, fwiw, a post from Aug 28 7:50 pm of mine had an interesting way of treating positive theology, apologetics, etc. from Lagrange
1. The positive procedure.
2. The analytic procedure.
3. The apologetic procedure.
4. The manifestative procedure.
5. The explicative procedure.
6. The illative procedure.
He sees them as different procedures within the same science...but remember how De Koninck distinguishes natural philosophy and natural science?
September 29 at 6:08pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Mine says Lauren Ogrodnick, Isak Benedict and 18 others also commented on Matthew J. Peterson's link. 15:05
September 29 at 6:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Nestorianism is the "two person" view, right?
September 29 at 6:09pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^right
September 29 at 6:09pm · Like
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John Ashman Isak, the top notification is the Iast one. The previous one was from quite a few pages back. Once you comment again, then it creates a new notification with aII that happens after wards. It's not a dupIicate, by commenting, you've wiped that sIate cIean. Aiso, I think 30 is the number where it stops notifying you aItogether unIess you comment again. Something Iike that. But it's not a dupIicate notification or some sort of error. It's onIy how it works in comment heavy threads combined with spurious commenting.
September 29 at 6:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It seems that as long as there is only one haecceitas, Scotus would be fine.
September 29 at 6:18pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hiccuptas
September 29 at 6:19pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Spurious commenting" = the very definition of intrepid TNETers
September 29 at 6:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia I think Daniel P. O'Connell makes an important point about study. I can study Kant without being a Kantian. I can study Scotus without being a Scotist. I can study Darwin without being Dawkins.
Why can't someone study Theology without being Christian?
September 29 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Studying theology is different from being a theologian
September 29 at 6:23pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante i smell an equivocation in the room
September 29 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Without faith the conclusions of theology would just be opinion .
September 29 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *sniff sniff* "Ugh dude who equivocated?!?"
September 29 at 6:25pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Rick BayIess is a gringo who is considered to be one of the greatest Mexican chefs in or out of Mexico.
September 29 at 6:25pm · Like
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John Ashman One might even benefit from a certain detachment.
September 29 at 6:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia So I can't study theology without being a theologian? The hell!?
September 29 at 6:27pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Catch 22 defined.
September 29 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No you can't have the science of sacred theology without faith that it could be a theologian without
September 29 at 6:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Voice dictation makes mistakes
September 29 at 6:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia please edit, I have no idea what you mean
September 29 at 6:29pm · Like
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John Ashman "Without faith the conclusions of theology would just be opinion ."
I thought this onIy appIed to the Pope.
September 29 at 6:30pm · Like
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John Ashman I assume this must mean that any two theoIogians must have the exact same "more than opinion" because you can't have muIitipe truths going on.
September 29 at 6:31pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I'm driving I will in an a couple minutes
September 29 at 9:52pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia never mind. I think I get what you mean. But the difference in our opinions is that you're looking at theology like it is true, I'm looking at it like it is a discipline.
September 29 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Joshua, did you really make it back that far or are you yanking our chain?
September 29 at 6:39pm · Like
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John Ashman TheoIogian = Gedi knight. Faith = Force.
September 29 at 6:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm trying to think... God is One in nature in three Divine Persons; this man is a Divine Person; therefore this man is God in nature. I think the conclusion would still be an act of faith.
September 29 at 6:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 6:46pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I was trying to find the best way to apologize to Isak, but he seems to be having so much fund playing with his photoshop, I don't want to interrupt him.
September 29 at 6:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there needs to be more beasts on that cover, Isak
September 29 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg you guys are killing me.
September 29 at 6:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe a pelican
September 29 at 6:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I know a quatrain about a pelican.
September 29 at 6:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg in heroic couplets
September 29 at 6:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg and no, it does not rhyme with hell-i-can.
September 29 at 6:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I just write doggerel and nerd-folk
September 29 at 6:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg doggerel is the best
September 29 at 6:52pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 6:56pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I can't see it. Can you repost it please?
September 29 at 6:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just refresh
September 29 at 6:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg O no. It's me in a snow white dress. With animals.
September 29 at 7:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill So if you have faith and study theology you can be a theologian; but, does this necessitate truth.
September 29 at 7:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill CAn you be an imperfect theologian if you study/believe imperfectly? (Totally equivocal... But driving at the imperfection is necessary)
September 29 at 7:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill How narrowly defined is faith? What is the least degree of faith necessary to qualify for "theology school"?
September 29 at 7:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you asking if you can you rhyme Pelican with "like hell I can" and still be a poet?
September 29 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No... It just seems saying that a non-believer can't study theology is silly.
September 29 at 7:14pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz John Ruplinger, I did make it that far back. I did actually quote from a comment of mine on Aug 28 7:50 pm.
If you want to know how I did so, well there is this thing called an activity log
September 29 at 7:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think the non-believer should be able to study Thomas's five proofs aka natural theology; and if you can spin a good metaphor you are a poet.
September 29 at 7:16pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Trying to find an early post of yours would be more difficult
September 29 at 7:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 7:48pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg St. Anselm's proslogium is quite charming. It is like a devotional:
Come now, little man! flee for a while from your tasks, hide yourself for a little space from the turmoil of your thoughts. Come, cast aside your burdensome cares, and put away your laborious pursuits. For a little while give your time to God, and rest in Him for a little. Enter the inner chamber of your mind, shut out all things save God and whatever may aid you in seeking God; and having barred the door of your chamber, seek Him. Speak now, O my heart, O my whole heart, speak now and say to your God: My face hath sought Thee: Thy face, O Lord, will I seek.... let me find Thee in love and love Thee in finding...
September 29 at 7:49pm · Like
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John Ashman Maybe it's Iike.... I can study magic speIIs, but have no power to wieId them because....not a warIock.
September 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg maybe
September 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley That was a great non-verbal metaphor Isak Benedict
September 29 at 7:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is that a Peregrine Falcon?
September 29 at 8:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No it is the Peregrine
September 29 at 8:02pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg The background looks fake.
September 29 at 8:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict How dare you suggest anything about that picture is fake.
September 29 at 8:03pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I took that picture myself. That creature was pooping all over my back porch and I thought y'all on TNET would like to see it.
September 29 at 8:05pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, it just doesn't look natural.
September 29 at 8:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I definitely agree that it doesn't look natural...
September 29 at 8:06pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ponce.
September 29 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I mean it looks photoshopped.
September 29 at 8:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Oh I misunderstood you. I assure you that monstrosity is quite real.
September 29 at 8:08pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No, the background has been manipulated. Most certainly.
September 29 at 8:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://xkcd.com/331/
xkcd: Photoshops
Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...
XKCD.COM
September 29 at 8:16pm · Like · 7
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Scott Weinberg The Iris, or the royal Fleur-de-Lis,
Signifies the Blessed Trinity,
Our Lady, Seat of Wisdom, give us light,
Within this Sacred Mystery, to delight.
September 29 at 8:22pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Beitia, that was inappropriate.
Heed the website's warning.
September 29 at 8:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Baby boomers-- awful generation, or worst ever generation?
September 29 at 9:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe apropos of nothing in tNET up to this moment
September 29 at 9:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know, they have all the vanity of the millennials....it's a toss up which one is worse
September 29 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe seriously, when you get to be 65, you should at least be starting to look after your soul, not trying to start your immoral "counter-cultural" youth over again.
September 29 at 9:13pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Hy...oh never mind.
September 29 at 9:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ?
September 29 at 9:16pm · Like
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Liz Neill Hym...
September 29 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe nonononono!
September 29 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Poor taste, I'll own it!
September 29 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill #sorrynotsorry
September 29 at 9:18pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill
September 29 at 9:18pm · Like
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Liz Neill Hymnal
September 29 at 9:20pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Apropos of baby boomers, I wonder if the decline in violent crime alluded to previously is a result of an increase of the median age of the population.
September 29 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill ^^ huh?
September 29 at 9:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley Earlier, we posted crime stats of NYC: it was something like 2,000+ murders in 1990 vs. 200+ in 2013.
September 29 at 9:53pm · Like
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Liz Neill A particular area?
September 29 at 9:54pm · Like
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Liz Neill Oh, then preach
September 29 at 9:54pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley What followed was some speculation as to the cause of such a drastic change and Matthew J. Peterson noted that it's not just a local event.
September 29 at 9:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, I'm wondering if an older population leads to a lower incidence in violence.
September 29 at 9:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No not age, but probably communication.
September 29 at 9:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley (for instance, one explanation might be that older people are more likely to resolve differences verbally rather than violently)
September 29 at 9:55pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Causation of crime is linked to "thinking you can get away with it"
September 29 at 9:56pm · Like
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Edward Langley Wouldn't that mean that rural areas would have more crime per capita?
September 29 at 9:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Seemingly
September 29 at 9:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But when there are two roads out of town how do you plan a get away?
September 29 at 9:58pm · Like
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Liz Neill Idk, I've seen some geriatrics go all kinds of ghetto!
September 29 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill When the town is like Southern California or New York you walk two blocks and you are gone
September 29 at 9:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, but those places also have a much higher incidence of security cameras and traffic cameras.
September 29 at 9:59pm · Like
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Liz Neill http://m.youtube.com/channel/UCZQ7dDApGw0Gp6sRC5BXXkw
Auntie Fee
YOUTUBE.COM
September 29 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley This article: http://science.time.com/.../in-town-versus-country-it.../
Indicates that you're less safe in the country but that is due to accidental injury rather than crime.
In Town vs. Country, It Turns Out That Cities Are the Safest Places to Live |...
SCIENCE.TIME.COM
September 29 at 10:00pm · Like · Remove Preview
Liz Neill I add nothing, I get it.
September 29 at 10:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley As does this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448529/
Urban–Rural Shifts in Intentional Firearm Death: Different Causes, Same Results
Methods. We analyzed 584629 deaths from 1989 to 1999...
NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV
September 29 at 10:01pm · Like · Remove Preview
Jeff Neill The biggest change is radio technology, just 15 years ago all police departments were on their own radio frequencies, once you get out of radio range you are free.
September 29 at 10:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia hah. the baby boomers are all about white collar crime. they've stolen from prior and posterior generations because they are the de facto majority.
September 29 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley In 1990, most of the baby boomers were just around the mid-life crisis age.
September 29 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think in the next ten years we'll see a swing toward social programs for the retiring, if you know what I mean
September 29 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah
September 29 at 10:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley And we'll finally see the effects of Griswold vs. Connecticut and Roe vs. Wade
September 29 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (i.e. the societal effects rather than individual effects)
September 29 at 10:25pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "'Tis Hymen peoples every town;
High wedlock then be honoured.
Honour, high honour, and renown,
To Hymen, god of every town!"
~ Shakespeare, As You Like It
September 29 at 10:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I retract my shout out for the Honorable Woman. It's good but its getting pretty disturbing.
September 29 at 10:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 10:39pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Isak I am blocking you, for legitimate cause.
September 29 at 10:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The challenge is creating the businesses that play to their ever changing desires. Baby boomers Make previous retiring generations sense of "active lifestyle" boring and inexpensive. It is not Coincidence that Indian gaming is putting Atlantic city out of business.
September 29 at 10:45pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict The Greek god of marriage smiles not upon my work?
September 29 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Too far?
September 29 at 10:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Apparently not anymore. Although it was better than the Oscar the grouch.
September 29 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I think that makes three times since the advent of TNET that he has blocked and unblocked me hahahahaha
September 29 at 10:46pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict What a petulant, bratty child.
September 29 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Oh shucks, this was my fault .
September 29 at 10:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No no, I hope it's for good this time. Now I don't have to read his mindless blather any more
September 29 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No true poet can't handle Shakespeare and Greek gods. #Isakgnosis
September 29 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Man this troll hide is soooo comfy #peltgnosis
September 29 at 10:53pm · Like · 4
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Liz Neill Hymen. There, I said it! No shame.
September 29 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill If peeps get disturbed by that word, they have issues.
September 29 at 10:55pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Peeps hahaha
September 29 at 10:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've never seen a disturbed yellow marshmallow duck.
September 29 at 10:57pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Isak should photoshop us one.
September 29 at 10:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Violent crime will never be the same as it once was. Recreational drugs are too available, and hard core drugs have more established syndicates. Street gangs / prison gangs have their territories established and the remaining violent crime is initiation rituals and crazy hate crimes & terrorist activities.
The anti-terrorism technology business is very difficult since their is no centralized buying power to afford large scale technological developments or minimal purchase volumes. But truthfully the anti-terror industry is stuck in the court room and whether a company can acquire indemnification for the tech developed.
So violent crime is limited to being fought with web bots and search engines and the radios and communication tools to respond as it happens.
September 29 at 10:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 11:02pm · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict Way ahead of you Ed.
September 29 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Do you work, isak? Lol
September 29 at 11:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Not at work now Liz
September 29 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Cheers to that
September 29 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill You are a better man at photo shop
Than I
September 29 at 11:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You know what's hilarious - I taught my rhetoric class how to develop ethos today hahahaha
September 29 at 11:05pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Oh pshaw it's just Microsoft Paint
September 29 at 11:06pm · Like
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Liz Neill Lol
September 29 at 11:06pm · Like
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Liz Neill That's awesome
September 29 at 11:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John I can't wait to experience what it's like trying to guess the inanities the troll is spouting based on what people say in response to him!
September 29 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Not that I can't understand . But, this grandstanding is hopeless, just saying,
September 29 at 11:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Oh he's mad, I can sense it
September 29 at 11:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia poke the troll, and the troll..... wanders off in a huff?
September 29 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill No. He wanders In. Hym...
September 29 at 11:20pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I had a fantastic conversation today with my 10th graders about rhetoric. I was telling them why speakers show up early to their events and go around meeting people, sometimes without even telling anyone they're the speaker for the night, and one of the students says "Mr. Bond you're teaching us how to manipulate people!"
So I turned around from the board with glee in my heart, having been waiting for a comment like that for two months, and asked the class "What do you think? Is it always wrong to manipulate someone?"
There was a glorious uproar immediately. When it calmed I quoted Quintilian to them, who defined rhetoric as "the good man speaking well." There followed an argument over whether or not you had to be a just person to be a good orator. I think they're beginning to agree that rhetoric without virtue is truthless.
September 29 at 11:21pm · Like · 5
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Liz Neill It"a funny thing peeps
September 29 at 11:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Is trolling like a Sith Lord rule of two kind of thing? Like, does the master troll the apprentice for a time until the apprentice turns and trolls the master so well he overcomes him, and becomes the master in his stead?
Is this how Peregrine began, too? Because this feels so, so good.....oh, the power!!! Has he made me in his own troll image? Is this an endless Hegelian hall of mirrors, troll reflecting troll to eternity, preying on the lifeblood of humanity and multiplying the evils of the world in an ever-widening circle of malevolent destruction?!?
OH GOD WHAT HAVE I BECOME...
September 29 at 11:30pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger I had warned you.
September 29 at 11:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I shall not succumb.
September 29 at 11:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger In a land of trolls how does the good man appear?
September 29 at 11:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Like Edward and Daniel, most likely. Their patience is otherworldly.
September 29 at 11:44pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger We are all trolls. You just cant admit it.
September 29 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict
September 29 at 11:46pm · Like · 9
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Matthew J. Peterson "Responding to the troll is the path to the dark side. Response leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to Trolling.”
September 29 at 11:55pm · Like · 9
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Edward Langley "Trollens est diffusivum sui"
September 29 at 11:58pm · Like · 8
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John Ruplinger ". . . . Father I have trolled 584 times since . . . "
September 30 at 12:12am · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict Matthew - nice example of anadiplosis!
September 30 at 12:14am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes. But, Isak, you have trolled the troll who trolled you to an extent that surprised and even startled me, you spirited man.
September 30 at 12:17am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict It's toxic, man.
September 30 at 12:24am · Like · 1
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John Ashman It's how we troII.
September 30 at 12:26am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I might even have meself a celebration beer!
September 30 at 12:27am · Like
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John Ashman I vagueIy remember arguing intenseIy with some guy named "Peregrine Bonaventure" or something over something reIated to something. Etc.
September 30 at 12:28am · Like · 1
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John Ashman AIways got him confused with Betia for some reason.
September 30 at 12:30am · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey check this out TNET: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZfs22E7JmI
Inherent Vice - Official Trailer [HD]
INHERENT VICE, in theaters December 2014. http://inherentvicemovie.com http://www.facebook.com/In...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 30 at 12:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict Can't wait for this - PTA is a great director. Magnolia is my second favorite movie.
September 30 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Raising Arizona meets PuIp FIction?
September 30 at 12:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill Magnolia was a great film... Best Tom cruise role ever
September 30 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I ask anyone I ever hear say Tom Cruise can't act "Have you seen Magnolia?"
September 30 at 1:25am · Like
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Jeff Neill It also got me into Amy Mann.... The film was just a big music video
September 30 at 1:27am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill His Oprah couch bit was basically that bit from the movie.
September 30 at 1:28am · Like
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Isak Benedict One last thing before I go to bed, TNET - NaNoWriMo is coming up. Who's going to do it with me?
September 30 at 1:59am · Like
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Edward Langley I wish the bishop of Portland would reprimand Mark Shea.
September 30 at 2:02am · Like
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Edward Langley While he sometimes is right, his mode just seems dangerous to me.
September 30 at 2:03am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, it seems to me that both the Church and the State need to think about how the internet should be governed.
September 30 at 2:05am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially since it basically is the public forum nowadays.
September 30 at 2:06am · Like
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Isak Benedict What did he do now?
September 30 at 2:12am · Like
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Edward Langley It's less any particular thing and more how he acts as if anyone who disagrees with him on anything is non-Catholic.
September 30 at 2:14am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The most egregious examples are the things he says about guns and the death penalty: not to mention his imprudent posts about voting in the days leading up to the 2012 elections.
September 30 at 2:17am · Like
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Isak Benedict Is he anything like Matt Walsh?
September 30 at 2:18am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Has anyone got on Joshua Kenz's case for his temerarious claim above that Duane Berquist confuses the etymology of "philosopher" with its definition?
September 30 at 2:19am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Haven't seen this, it sounds especially audacious given that the person who seems to have invented the term (Socrates in the Phaedrus), seeks to intend its etymology to be significant.
September 30 at 2:21am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why Bishop of Portland Edward? Mark Shea lives in Seattle.
September 30 at 2:25am · Like
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Edward Langley I have spotted Pater Edmund recommending my forum . . . I must be doing something right.
Come over and discuss why sacred theology is subalternated to the science of the blessed.
http://socraticum.com
(Send me a FB message or an email to webmaster@socraticum.com if it doesn't work for you)
Socraticum.com
Anyone with a Google or Facebook account can use that account to log in. Users who do not choose to take advantage of Google or Facebook login will also have to validate their email address.
SOCRATICUM.COM
September 30 at 2:26am · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley Seattle then, Jody, somehow I got the notion that he was in Portland.
September 30 at 2:26am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Mark Shea is a good guy at heart. He isn't a philosopher. He is a writer (and convert) trying to make a living.
September 30 at 2:27am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He likes to stir the pot. Keeps people reading.
September 30 at 2:27am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He came up here to be the keynote at our Marian conference. I enjoyed chatting with him. He rubs most alumni the wrong way for sure.
September 30 at 2:28am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But Canadians tend to like him (b/c we don't like the death penalty, we don't all carry guns, and we don't vote Republican or Democrat)
September 30 at 2:28am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I don't deny that, but I worry about his influence.
September 30 at 2:29am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He raises some good questions that people in the Rep or Dem camps just won't and can't. Catholic conscience is above party politics. (But I think he is wrong to abstain or throw away a vote)
September 30 at 2:30am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley As far as the death penalty goes, I tend to think that the Church has decided to leave the particulars of the case up to local authorities.
September 30 at 2:32am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So I have a dilemma that came up at work tonight (parish faith formation). A priest is giving a 10 night talk on TOB using (among other things) his notes from Dr Waldstein's classes he took a while ago at ITI. But he takes every chance he can to throw St Thomas under the bus and out the window. As far as he is concerned that is past theology which is now replace by St JPII.
September 30 at 2:32am · Like
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Edward Langley With a strong suggestion that it might never be necessary these days.
September 30 at 2:32am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau The problem came up with Adam and Eve. He made the point that scientists can trace the human genome to 9 original women (Eves) and he said that would be ok (and explain the 'other' people in Genesis who appear in the story with Adam and Eve's family). When I said there has to be 1 set of original parents (by dogma) he denied it.
September 30 at 2:33am · Like
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Edward Langley That's odd for an ITI graduate:
September 30 at 2:34am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I tried to avoid saying it but when I said it is found in Ott, he said Ott is outdated and too Thomistic. Ugh.
September 30 at 2:34am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He wanted to check what Ratzinger says in "In the Beginning…" (as if that would have more weight than the deposit of Faith?)
September 30 at 2:34am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau sigh. I wasn't sure how much to push as the parish coordinator and him being the priest speaker. But I will do my homework before next class.
September 30 at 2:35am · Like
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Pater Edmund What's his name?
September 30 at 2:35am · Like
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Edward Langley Is the dogma one couple, or all descended from Adam?
September 30 at 2:35am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau The dogma is 1 couple as far as I know -- I am certain
September 30 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't want to broadcast his name but seriously, I think something has to be said.
September 30 at 2:36am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't like that he is promoting this as the 'new way' of theology when I am sure Dr Waldstein wouldn't agree (but appears to be in agreement). I like this priest but perhaps I should talk to the bishop (who does like St Thomas). Most of our priests would support St Thomas. I don't think it is an 'either/or' situation at all but he makes it into one.
September 30 at 2:37am · Like
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Edward Langley This is Humani Generis: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."
September 30 at 2:38am · Like
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Edward Langley That only seems to commit to saying that all descended from Adam and leaves, e.g., the Lilith story open.
September 30 at 2:39am · Like
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Edward Langley (prescinding from any objections to the particulars of that story).
September 30 at 2:39am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau He was going with the 'breathing the individual soul' into the animal evolved to be human-like. He saw no problem with multiple Adams and Eves.
September 30 at 2:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would like to hear what Joshua Kenz has to say about it.
September 30 at 2:40am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, Trent is pretty clear about Adam:
September 30 at 2:41am · Like
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Edward Langley 1. If anyone does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he transgressed the commandment of God in paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice in which he had been constituted, and through the offense of that prevarication incurred the wrath and indignation of god, and thus death with which God had previously threatened him,[4] and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil,[5] and that the entire Adam through that offense of prevarication was changed in body and soul for the worse,[6] let him be anathema.
2. If anyone asserts that the transgression of Adam injured him alone and not his posterity,[7] and that the holiness and justice which he received from God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has transfused only death and the pains of the body into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul, let him be anathema, since he contradicts the Apostle who says:
By one man sin entered into the world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.[8]
3. If anyone asserts that this sin of Adam, which in its origin is one, and by propagation, not by imitation, transfused into all, which is in each one as something that is his own, is taken away either by the forces of human nature or by a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ,[9] who has reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, sanctification and redemption;[10] or if he denies that that merit of Jesus Christ is applied both to adults and to infants by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church, let him be anathema; for there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.[11]
Whence that declaration:
Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sins of the world;[12] and that other:
As many of you as have been baptized, have put on Christ.[13]
4. If anyone denies that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, are to be baptized, even though they be born of baptized parents, or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins,[14] but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam which must be expiated by the laver of regeneration for the attainment of eternal life, whence it follows that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins is to be understood not as true but as false, let him be anathema, for what the Apostle has said, by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned,[15] is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church has everywhere and always understood it.
For in virtue of this rule of faith handed down from the apostles, even infants who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this reason truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that in them what they contracted by generation may be washed away by regeneration.[16]
For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.[17]
September 30 at 2:41am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (Sess.5 canons 1-4)
September 30 at 2:41am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't think he'll listen to anything pre-JPII
September 30 at 2:42am · Like
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Edward Langley I think at that point, a bishop should be talked to: I think the procedure is to first talk to him with a witness or two and, if he doesn't recant, inform the bishop.
September 30 at 2:43am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But the weird thing is that he promoted the veracity of scripture and avoided calling Genesis a myth. So how can he make the story so stretched.
September 30 at 2:43am · Like
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Edward Langley Your local bishop, if nothing else, to prevent him from teaching in your diocese.
September 30 at 2:43am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So awkward. I am on friendly terms with this priest. But he knows I am a Thomist. The crazy thing is I consider myself a Catholic and a lover of the truth (not a follower of one philosophy).
September 30 at 2:45am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I have tried to counsel him about how his comments putting down St Thomas don't help the ideas he wants to teach with TOB (but he doesn't listen; it has gotten worse). HIs comments take away from the truth and beauty of TOB in my opinion. He misunderstands JPII's purpose. It isn't to trash Paul IV Humanae Vitae or to rewrite the doctrines of the Church.
September 30 at 2:47am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau So is ITI in support of St Thomas? Or neutral? (but can you be neutral?)
September 30 at 2:52am · Like
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Edward Langley I talked to a graduate who made it sound like their program basically was the Summa Theologiae.
September 30 at 2:52am · Like
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Edward Langley But Daniel Lendman and/or Katherine Gardner would know better.
September 30 at 2:53am · Like
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Edward Langley Here's their reading list for the STM: http://www.iti.ac.at/.../pdfs/STM%20Reading%20List%2009.pdf
September 30 at 2:54am · Like
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Edward Langley This is the "Second Principle" of ITI: "2. AD FONTES, EAST AND WEST: The Curriculum has its of departure in the primary sources written by the masters of the theological tradition, from the Fathers of the Church to the present age. It draws on the theological tradition of the East as well as of the West, seeking in this way to “breathe with both lungs of the Church.” The Greek Fathers and St. Thomas Aquinas are particularly important points of reference."
September 30 at 2:56am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I see that read that 'heretic' Newman.
September 30 at 2:56am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau
September 30 at 2:56am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Quite the reading list. (Augros made the list?!)
September 30 at 2:56am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley http://www.iti.ac.at/academics/pdfs/Overview.pdf p.2
September 30 at 2:56am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I can't imagine that Waldstein was anything other than in support of St Thomas (and that was the teacher this guy went to learn from)
September 30 at 2:57am · Unlike · 1
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Michael Bolin The quotation from Humani Generis indicates that monogenism is not a dogma, since the Church does not define dogmas by saying, e.g., "Catholics are not at liberty to hold the contrary because it is not clear how to reconcile it with another dogma." The subsequent treatment of the opinion, i.e. by JPII and the ITC, makes this clearer still.
September 30 at 3:01am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I took the "For it is no way apparent . . ." part as a kind of rhetorical emphasis.
September 30 at 3:03am · Like
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Edward Langley The canons of Trent I quoted, however, seem to settle the question.
September 30 at 3:03am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau What treatment by JPII Michael?
September 30 at 3:09am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Denzinger 717c:
[Condemned in the letter "Cum sicut," Pius II Nov. 14, 1459]:
"(3) That God created another world than this one, and that in its time many other men and women existed and that consequently Adam was not the first man."
September 30 at 3:10am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is Ott outdated? Seems odd to say that.
September 30 at 3:18am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau from Ott: "Unity of the Human Race
The whole human race stems from one single human pair (Sent. certa.)"
September 30 at 3:18am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Sent. Certa." doesn't mean dogmatic.
September 30 at 3:19am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau The text points to Humani Generis (as you quoted) as rejecting polygenism (the problem is original sin)
September 30 at 3:20am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau The priest's suggestion was that all of the pairs (the other Adams and Eves) each had their own original sin. But I pointed out, that isn't so original then is it?
September 30 at 3:25am · Like
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Michael Bolin The "For it is in no way apparent" is actually giving the reason for the first part of the paragraph. In the Latin text, it is not a separate sentence but a continuation of the same sentence with a causal 'cum' clause.
September 30 at 3:25am · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley What about the Trent canons? They seem to assume that there was a first man, Adam.
September 30 at 3:26am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I have to head to bed but I plan to also check what Ratzinger had to say in his book.
But how can new theological opinion overthrow centuries of Church teaching? It feels like the Galileo Reflex -- we don't want to be seen as scientifically backwards (or holding back science) so we dump what we believe to avoid that.
September 30 at 3:31am · Like
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Michael Bolin As regards JPII, perhaps I should speak rather of his lack of treatment. There is a striking silence in his 1996 speech to the PAS. First, he says that in Humani Generis Pius XII had stated that there was no conflict between evolution and the faith, provided that several indisputable points were maintained. Later, he says that Pius XII gave us "the condition on which this opinion would be compatible with the Christian faith." He deliberately sets us up to be thinking about Humani Generis and Pius XII's conditions placed therein . . . and then goes on to mention only the doctrine of the immediate creation of the human soul. The omission of polygenism fairly shouts, given the expectation he sets up, especially since Pius XII spends quite a bit more time on polygenism than on the doctrine about the soul.
September 30 at 3:33am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin As for Trent, even if one went with the polygenism hypothesis, there would still have to be a first man.
September 30 at 3:35am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Just to be clear, that means that one man from whom all men descended?
September 30 at 3:36am · Like
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Michael Bolin I didn't mean that, necessarily. I've seen people give varying hypotheses, including taking Pius XII's "after Adam" to mean that by the time of his death there were no human beings who were not merged into the line of his descendants.
The straightforward interpretation that you suggest has certainly been the traditional theological opinion; I'm only saying that it is not defined dogma.
September 30 at 3:41am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "including taking Pius XII's "after Adam" to mean that by the time of his death there were no human beings who were not merged into the line of his descendants."
It seems that that would run afoul of St. Paul's "As in Adam all died".
September 30 at 3:42am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Since it would imply that there were some humans who didn't contract original sin.
September 30 at 3:43am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Jody: The theological tradition, even if centuries old, is not necessarily Church teaching in the sense of defined dogma. The limbo of infants is a classic example of this.
September 30 at 3:43am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I also wonder if this is one of the cases where the consensus patrium would be definitive.
September 30 at 3:47am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Edward: The whole question is about whether there is another possible understanding of the propagation of original sin. Pius XII placed the restriction precisely because no one had a good alternative, but did not rule out the possibility that one might be discovered. Later theologians made proposals, and even though all of these might be wrong, the Church has not definitively ruled them, or some yet undiscovered one, out. This latter point also explains the relaxation of its attitude toward polygenism.
September 30 at 3:47am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley So I suppose the lack of liberty referenced in Humani Generis should basically be read as saying that non-qualified people shouldn't take an alternative view?
September 30 at 3:52am · Like
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Michael Bolin The consensus of the Fathers has weight not just when the Fathers agree on a point, but insofar as they agree on its pertinence to the faith. For example, even if all of the Fathers held to the theory of the four elements, this would not bind us to it because they do not understand it as being pertinent to the faith even if true.
It is probably true that there is a consensus among them as regards Adam's being the first parent in the traditional sense, but they see the importance of this as being exactly what you pointed out, e.g. St. Paul's remark. And so this consensus would be authoritative precisely to the extent that it pertains to the faith, namely that we cannot maintain a position that undermines the dogma of original sin; and this is exactly what Pius XII said. But it does not resolve the question of whether another interpretation of the propagation of original sin is possible.
September 30 at 3:53am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I think that was roughly Pius XII's intent at the time. One sign of this is that when Grisez and others began to speculate about other understandings of original sin, which could in theory have taken away the reason for the prohibition, the Church did not rule out their project.
However, the Church no longer seeks to censure anyone, so far as I know, for holding polygenism, and since I wish to follow the Church, I would not do so either. The prohibition was not explicitly removed, but it seems to have been implicitly removed. This is not to say that I think polygenism is necessarily true, though, only possible.
September 30 at 4:01am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Jody: I think it is true that scientific support for polygenism is part of the cause of the Church relaxing her position on it, but it's not a case of "dump[ing] what we believe." The Catholic faith maintains the propagation of original sin from Adam, and the most straightforward way to understand that is the traditional belief in monogenism. But that belief was never defined as a biological reality; there was simply no reason until recently to think that the biological reality might be otherwise, and so naturally no one thought otherwise. The evidence for polygenism from genetics is not conclusive, but it is suggestive, and the Church is willing to take that into account in her formulations.
The Galileo affair is helpful to think about.
September 30 at 4:14am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin [Continuation of the accidentally broken comment]: The main reason the Church didn't like Galileo's cockiness about the need to reinterpret Scripture is not that this cannot happen, but that his case was weak, and there was plenty of scientific evidence for geocentrism at the time (e.g. the lack of observed stellar parallax). But even Cardinal Bellarmine, who believed the scriptures to affirm the geocentric view, conceded that if a scientific demonstration of heliocentrism were discovered, Scripture would have to be read differently. Likewise, the Church should not drop the traditional monogenic understanding just because someone hypothesizes otherwise, but it may do so if the scientific case for polygenism becomes strong enough.
September 30 at 4:19am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia Reading Genesis is difficult with monogenesis. Cain founded the first city. City? with whom? his pregnant wife (about which we know nothing)? It becomes very difficult to understand.
September 30 at 8:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia But perhaps I'm not familiar enough with the monogenic understanding of how this came to pass.
September 30 at 8:39am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I'll be honest, I don't see how a polygenic account can fit with the doctrine of original sin. Can somebody give me an account of what that would look like? Also, the fact that the Church hasn't condemned recent attempts at polygenic explanations doesn't mean a whole lot, since the Church doesn't really condemn anything (explicitly) anymore.
September 30 at 10:29am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Sean, how do you read Chapter 4 of Genesis, considering Cain was "building a city" with whom?
September 30 at 10:36am · Like
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Edward Langley How old is he said to have been?
September 30 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Pretty sure we have no clue... It could be a teenage freak out or a century old mans battle
September 30 at 10:41am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I know my non-Catholic friends who believe that Adam and Eve are the one and only first parents believed in intermarriage in the same family (brothers and sisters) which was permissible because of their pure blood lines. Larger families were possible as well if the women were healthier and lived longer.
September 30 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau And a 'city' -- that could just be a village. It is relative.
September 30 at 10:48am · Like
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Edward Langley If there were three generations alive with an average family size of 10, there would have been 1000 people.
September 30 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley . . . but even 100 or so would be enough, and feasible after a couple hundred years.
September 30 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (given the reported ages)
September 30 at 10:49am · Like
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Catherine Ryland How do you explain the fact that 'with Adam, guilt/death entered the world' when clearly death had been around for quite some time before humans existed? It seems to me that St. Paul's claim must be understood as concerning spiritual life and death, or death just for humans.
September 30 at 10:51am · Like
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Edward Langley That's actually a matter of dogma, at least for humans.
September 30 at 10:52am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Right, but clearly things had been dying before Adam and Eve existed.
September 30 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland But that doesn't seem to me to be a problem with a creational account.
September 30 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "101 Can. 1. All the bishops established in the sacred synod of the Carthaginian Church have decided that whoever says that Adam, the first man, was made mortal, so that, whether he sinned or whether he did not sin, he would die in body, that is he would go out of the body not because of the merit of sin but by reason of the necessity of nature, * let him be anathema."
September 30 at 10:54am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (denzinger 101)
September 30 at 10:54am · Like
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Edward Langley ...although that's not from an ecumenical council, so I don't no exactly what weight it bears.
September 30 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland That's fine. As long as we know that death necessarily entered the world before Adam, just not for humans.
September 30 at 10:55am · Like
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Edward Langley I do think it's fine for animals to die before then
September 30 at 10:55am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley In fact, I think Thomas explicitly affirms it,
September 30 at 10:56am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Furthermore, with ref. to the conversation above, it doesn't seem that there would be a problem with God forming humans gradually out of the earth over a long time (some kind of special evolution -- probably not macro-evolution) with perhaps a certain point at which a single humanoid (not-yet-humanly-rational) became capable of receiving a God-infused human rational soul. Of course all just speculation.
September 30 at 11:00am · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I do have a problem with God forming Eve out of Adam's rib -- men certainly aren't missing a rib.
September 30 at 11:07am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Maybe just Adam?
September 30 at 11:07am · Like
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Edward Langley I think that's all that would be necessary
September 30 at 11:07am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't see why it would be inherited.
September 30 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict TNET remains fascinating.
September 30 at 11:08am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland But why? To show the connectedness of men and women? It just seems like a bad fairy tale.
September 30 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Ad secundum dicendum quod quidam dicunt quod animalia quae nunc sunt ferocia et occidunt alia animalia, in statu illo fuissent mansueta non solum circa hominem, sed etiam circa alia animalia. Sed hoc est omnino irrationabile. Non enim per peccatum hominis natura animalium est mutata, ut quibus nunc naturale est comedere aliorum animalium carnes, tunc vixissent de herbis, sicut leones et falcones. Nec Glossa Bedae dicit, Gen. I, quod ligna et herbae datae sunt omnibus animalibus et avibus in cibum, sed quibusdam. Fuisset ergo naturalis discordia inter quaedam animalia. Nec tamen propter hoc subtraherentur dominio hominis; sicut nec nunc propter hoc subtrahuntur dominio Dei, cuius providentia hoc totum dispensatur. Et huius providentiae homo executor fuisset, ut etiam nunc apparet in animalibus domesticis, ministrantur enim falconibus domesticis per homines gallinae in cibum."
September 30 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Basically that says "certain people thought the animals didn't kill each other, but that is absurd" it's from ST I.96.1 ad 2
September 30 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I mean, I was working with people last year who believed the earth was formed in 7 calendar days, 3000 or whatever it was years ago. Nowhere in the bible does it say how many years ago creation occurred, and furthermore, it's not possible for the creation to have come about in 7 days as the sun was not even existing yet.
September 30 at 11:11am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Thanks for the quote, Edward.
September 30 at 11:12am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I think the 6000 involved trying to add up all the ages in the Bible until you come to a known date.
September 30 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I realize, but I wouldn't be surprised if years were even calculated differently in early history.
September 30 at 11:13am · Like
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Catherine Ryland This is the problem with trying to read the bible as a scientific document.
September 30 at 11:14am · Like
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Edward Langley Iª q. 92 a. 3 co: "Respondeo dicendum quod conveniens fuit mulierem formari de costa viri. Primo quidem, ad significandum quod inter virum et mulierem debet esse socialis coniunctio. Neque enim mulier debet dominari in virum, et ideo non est formata de capite. Neque debet a viro despici, tanquam serviliter subiecta, et ideo non est formata de pedibus. Secundo, propter sacramentum, quia de latere Christi dormientis in cruce fluxerunt sacramenta, idest sanguis et aqua, quibus est Ecclesia instituta."
September 30 at 11:14am · Like
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Edward Langley Well I think there's excess in both ways wrt. the "scientific document" question.
September 30 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Right, it's "fitting" but is it true? I don't know how we can know.
September 30 at 11:17am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Well, I'm not sure if we have any access to the creation of Eve except through the Bible.
September 30 at 11:17am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Right.
September 30 at 11:17am · Like
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Edward Langley I like taking those early books as historically as seems reasonable and to generally give a historical reading the benefit of the doubt.
September 30 at 11:20am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley And I think a lot of the details are the kinds of particulars that science can't judge.
September 30 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think the idea of Eve being formed out of Adam
September 30 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...is beautiful.
September 30 at 11:23am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman And therefore, likely literally true.
September 30 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Actually I think it is beautiful too. But I still have problems with it, in the same way that I have problems with the creation in 7 calendar days question.
September 30 at 11:24am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like what?
September 30 at 11:25am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Well, just that it and everything in the creation story seems figurative (figurative in a sloppy sense, not an Augustinian sense) or poetic.
September 30 at 11:32am · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin What's interesting about St. Thomas's treatment of the rib question is that he takes the reasons for Eve's formation from Adam's rib to be significative. Now, he is thinking that the event itself is a sign, since he has no reason to consider other possible historical events, but given what we now know, it could be the case that the historical event was otherwise but that Scripture uses this language to signify the same sorts of things that Thomas refers to, i.e. about the relationship between man and woman. This would also fit nicely with the description of Adam's formation, which as Ratzinger noted, does not tell us how man came to be but what man is.
September 30 at 11:29am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Well, it may be figurative, but I don't know why it would be sloppy.
September 30 at 11:29am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland (no, I just mean that I was using the term 'figurative' sloppily)
September 30 at 11:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
September 30 at 11:30am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Not precisely as Sts. Augustine or Thomas would re: scripture.
September 30 at 11:30am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So much of the story makes no sense unless NOT historical and NOT, even in itself, forgetting modern science.
Serpent is never said to be Satan. Talking animals?!? So the serpent actually the craftiest of creatures? That seems obviously absurd and ridiculous taken literally.
Unclear what fruit is. What is created and order during the days re light, etc., makes no literal sense.
September 30 at 11:36am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson And where is the angel with the flaming sword guarding the entrance in the Middle East?!?
September 30 at 11:37am · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Matthew J. Peterson is spot on here, I think. To speak of giving a historical reading the benefit of the doubt subtly assumes that a historical reading is somehow "better" or more appropriate to what the author was trying to accomplish. In fact, the human author wished to write theology, and the typical way of doing this at the time was to use language that to us postmoderns looks like myth (and the author also wished to contrast his text with myths like the Enuma Elish). We should take the text as historical, then, when the theology requires that it be historical. When it does not so require, to assume that it is historical is neither needed nor even necessarily better, since that was not the fundamental intent.
September 30 at 11:41am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes! The sad thing is our bizarre, puritanical picking and choosing of literal in the account is probably not a mistake that the ancient Israelites would have made.
September 30 at 11:42am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson It is rather a misunderstanding of what Michael Bolin speaks of, skewed by the simplistic American Protestant reaction to modern science being used to attack fundamentalism.
September 30 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Probably 20,000 comments ago I explained how the creation accounts could and should be described as myth.
September 30 at 11:49am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I think it is clearly the genre of the accounts, as Matthew pointed out.
September 30 at 11:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman it being myth.
September 30 at 11:50am · Like
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Michael Bolin Because the word "myth" has taken on the connotation, at least for us, of something false, I would rather say "the genre of the accounts is closer to myth than to any other extant genre."
September 30 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco PBC disagrees with that classification.
September 30 at 11:51am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman The only quibble I would make is that the literal account is the myth-genre.
September 30 at 11:51am · Like
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Elliot Milco http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_19090630...
De charactere historico trium priorum capitum Geneseos - Pontificia Commissio Biblica
I. Utrum varia systemata exegetica, quae ad excludendum sensum litteralem historicum trium priorum capitum libri Geneseos excogitata et scientiae fuco propugnata sunt, solido fundamento fulciantur?
VATICAN.VA
September 30 at 11:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Elliot, there is only a very small window of history where I really care about what the PBC says. I am familiar with the pertinent texts on the issue within that window, and I do not disagree with them. What are you talking about?
September 30 at 11:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia It's really impossible to take literally (in the modern sense of literal) when we have two separate accounts, which differ, of the creation of man
September 30 at 11:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think the term myth is so fitting a name, Michael Bolin, that I would rather use that term and explain what I meant, than do otherwise.
September 30 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The thing is, many authorities take certain things such as the formation of Eve and the various ages in the beginning of Genesis and other such things to be just statements of fact. in such cases, I think it is prudent to read the text with those authorities as a historical statement whenever possible.
September 30 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Not least, because of the virtue of docility.
September 30 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Haha, Daniel, I'm sure I missed that conversation re: myth.
September 30 at 11:55am · Like
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Elliot Milco Well the term myth is scandalous. I should probably remove myself though, because I'm on a tablet and this topic requires faster typing.
September 30 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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Robert Cheeks I can't find the arrow?
September 30 at 11:57am · Like
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Catherine Ryland At the very top, next to the words 'Thomas Aquinas College'.
September 30 at 11:58am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland It's light grey, almost invisible. And tiny.
September 30 at 11:58am · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, I do think that it's better to hold the text of the Bible to be true in as many ways as possible: since the power of the Divine Word is to express much in little.
September 30 at 11:58am · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin The 1909 PBC document is principally not a teaching document but a disciplinary one, intended to shut up the modernists who wished to teach that Scripture could contain errors. This is apparent from its highly tendentious language and questions that have the answer front-loaded, e.g. whether a doctrine "defended by the pretense of science" can be maintained.
Moreover, the document needs to be read in light of the PBC's 1948 letter to Cardinal Suhard, which explicitly states that the 1909 text is not to be taken as a hindrance to pursuit of other understandings in light of ongoing scientific investigation.
September 30 at 11:59am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (and that seems to be the clear teaching of Augustine's De Doctrina Christiana, and ST I.1)
September 30 at 11:59am · Like
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Robert Cheeks No offense meant.
September 30 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Again, forget PBC, but as I say, the idea that the account holds up on its own in what most people today would call a purely literal sense is ridiculous, with or without modern science.
Aristotle had enough science to call out stories about talking animals, for Pete's sake, and anyone can see the inconsistencies and question literal veracity.
Where is the angel with the flaming sword in the middle east guarding the entrance?
September 30 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Talking animals and obvious inconsistencies are scandalous, to my mind. An absurd literal account is scandalous.
September 30 at 12:05pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Matthew, I think you're constructing a strawman.
September 30 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley There is a mean between "talking animals" and "fictions written on an acid trip"
September 30 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No, the strawman exists in modern debates about such things in America over the last century. I can barely bear to hear those debates for more than five seconds.
September 30 at 12:06pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The great lie here is that a literal (I use it as modern people use it) understanding makes sense. We import a simplistic and unquestioned "literal meaning" rather fast, and this interpretation is born of a reaction to the claims of modern science. But, again, on its own terms, the account of creation itself is mysterious and unclear, and begs for some work to be done to understand what the 'ell it means.
September 30 at 12:09pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In the case of Genesis, the Word expresses "much in little," for example the four causes of creation, largely in virtue of using non-historical language. Indeed, it seems probable that it would have failed as a text had God simply revealed a historical account of the origin of the cosmos. If someone had written a text stating that man was descended from lower animals, it would itself probably been understood as myth.
September 30 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.”"
What? Does anyone here really think they understand what that "literally" even means?
September 30 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Ah, just a simple, "literal" understanding will do. Olde Time religion. Hah.
And do we think this is easily explainable:given that literal history?
Day 2 :
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Day 4:
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
September 30 at 12:14pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Calm down, Matthew J. Peterson.
September 30 at 12:14pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley There are very clear intra-textual clues that tell us not to interpret that text historically: starting with the different order of events presented in the second creation account.
September 30 at 12:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The story of the Fall is nothing like that.
September 30 at 12:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley The best you can do is say that "talking animals sound silly" and "what is this angel with a flaming sword?" . . . but the former could easily be explained by either demonic possession or by some sort of demonic apparition.
September 30 at 12:16pm · Like
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Joel HF I think there have probably always been pious simple folk who interpret the story simply as straightforward history--and there is nothing wrong with that to my mind. The problem is when the "learned" start doing so as well.
September 30 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^The story there being creation.
September 30 at 12:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman True, Edward, does not mean historically accurate.
September 30 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Not denying that, Daniel Lendman
September 30 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, late on that. Needed to refreash.
September 30 at 12:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, I think that if a historical interpretation is not explicitly contradicted either by internal evidence or manifest science, at the very least we shouldn't deny such an interpretation.
September 30 at 12:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, Katie Duda, you haven't *really* defended until you've defended on tNET.
September 30 at 12:19pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Also, I don't think the science is or can be settled about evolution the way the heliocentrism vs. geocentrism thing was: historical matters just are murky things that only admit so much clarity.
September 30 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Talking animals do not "sound silly". They defy what we know by reason. And how do you know that the serpent is Satan? Why are you interpreting things so loosely? Hah. The craftiest of all the creatures? So snakes used to have reason before the fall?
September 30 at 12:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley We know the serpent is Satan because that's how the Fathers tell us to read that passage.
September 30 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think Matthew is making a good, if somewhat polemically styled point.
September 30 at 12:21pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm going to write * my * dissertation on when and why Peterson says "hah" vs. "heh".
September 30 at 12:21pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Which tells us something about how the passage ought to be read.
September 30 at 12:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Talking animals do not "sound silly". They defy what we know by reason."
Sure, if it's just a question of animal nature. But, how are you going to prove that the devil didn't choose to appear as a serpent?
September 30 at 12:22pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (and, as far as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil / Tree of Life goes, that's about as hard to believe as the necessity of Baptism is)
September 30 at 12:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The inter-textual evidence that the story ought not be read as historical is found in the serpent "talking."
September 30 at 12:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Among other things.
September 30 at 12:22pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Edward: There is a difficulty with the argument that it is prudent to stay with a historical-literal interpretation because so many earlier authorities held to it. The virtue of humility would encourage reasoning along these lines, "Most theological authorities held an opinion different from mine, therefore my opinion is probably false, or at least I should be very cautious about it," *if* one had reason to think that those authorities were in just as good a position to judge as we are. But in fact they were not in such a position. For most of human history, no one had any significant scientific reason to think that the cosmos and man came to be via natural processes, and they even had reason to think that this was impossible. Given this background knowledge, it is much more reasonable to take the creation account as straightforwardly relating miraculous happenings. But there is no particular reason to think that, e.g., the Fathers would hold to that interpretation if they were living today.
September 30 at 12:23pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Here is a fun theory about the first parentage of Adam and Eve for tNET's consideration: What if Adam and Eve were not prior to humanity in time, but only by causality? Philosophers these days (not our kind) love to posit possible worlds. In this theory, Adam and Eve existed in a different world than ours at the time when they committed the first sin, but their actions in that world were determinative of ours. So, the idea is, Adam and Eve sinned, and in so doing, determined the history of the world in which they later came to be, as well as affecting the course of that world going forward.
September 30 at 12:23pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not, Edward Langley. My point is that you do not read the passage without heavy interpretation. You do not read it literally in the modern sense. If you did, you would be far more aware of what you import into the story and you would care a bit more about what happened to that angel with the flaming sword that ought to be found in the middle east guarding a garden that God planted that ostensibly ought to still be there.
September 30 at 12:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah? Fun, right?
September 30 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, then we retain original sin and first parenthood without having to look for one historical first pair. There was a first pair, causally, but they might not have been first in time.
September 30 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin The way Facebook seems to update with some new comments but not all is exceedingly annoying. Another reason why folks should use Edward's website instead.
September 30 at 12:27pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman I am a little puzzled, Edward Langley, by why you would your position as strongly as you do. I think it would be a scandal, as Matthew suggests, to push a litero-hisorical reading as far as you are suggesting. Scandal in the sense of exposing Divine things to mockery.
September 30 at 12:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't think I'm pushing it as strongly as you think I am, Daniel Lendman
September 30 at 12:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Hmm...
September 30 at 12:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why isn't anyone tearing my crazy theory apart? I'm sad.
September 30 at 12:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman How strongly are you pushing it, then?
September 30 at 12:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Busy at the moment, Samantha.
September 30 at 12:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley As I said, I just want to be careful not to rule out an interpretation of the text that the text can bear.
September 30 at 12:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I think there's scandal involved on both sides.
September 30 at 12:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, it seems to me that the text of Genesis itself provides certain clear signs about when it is being "mythical" and when it is being historical.
September 30 at 12:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley To rephrase that: Augustine and often shows a high degree of hesitation when it comes to denying an interpretation of the Bible: in fact Augustine probably gives half a dozen interpretation of the text in question.
September 30 at 12:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh Daniel's on about his not believing the Bible again. This "mythical" thing is bullshit guys. Pontifical Biblical Commission said Genesis is to be taken in a *historical* sense. Kenz ! Get in here!
September 30 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin On one level, Augustine would perhaps not rule out any interpretation of Scripture that is true, which is why he likes to put forth so many possibilities, but that is because the Holy Spirit can intend more than the human author. Not every true interpretation is part of what the human author intended.
September 30 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But he does rule out certain interpretations.
September 30 at 12:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think an historical interpretation of the text can and should be ruled out.
September 30 at 12:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley I agree that these text need not be read historically and I wouldn't insist on such a reading as necessary for the Faith.
September 30 at 12:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so Paul and Jesus were just mistaken about Adam and the Fall.
September 30 at 12:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante If no historical Adam and historical Fall, Jesus becomes immediately pointless, people
September 30 at 12:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
September 30 at 12:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially since people like Augustine would have faced similar "scientific" objections to the Genesis story from Porphyry, Plotinus et al.
September 30 at 12:38pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I've fallen behind in reading the comments, but I want to throw something out there before going off to celebrate Mass: What if the ancient myths are mostly true historically. What if in the youth of the world gods and giants roamed the face of the earth, and wingéd dragons, man-faced ox-progeny, and ox headed men. Animals possessed by devils spoke cunning words. And then in the midst of all this tummult the Lord made a garden in the East: a place of calm and order and harmony betwixt man and beast...
September 30 at 12:38pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ...what if...
September 30 at 12:39pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante If no historical Adam and historical Fall, then Jesus and Paul were mistaken about who Jesus was and we don't need Jesus anyhow.
September 30 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Escalante: No, you are just mistaken about what Paul and Jesus said.
September 30 at 12:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My theory includes a real Adam and Eve, if not quite historical ones..
September 30 at 12:39pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Paul assumes a real first Adam by whom death came into the world, Mr Bolin
September 30 at 12:40pm · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and the entire church believed this until about 60 years ago
September 30 at 12:40pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley As does Trent . . .
September 30 at 12:40pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I believe that Genesis indicates that there was a real fall and a real Adam. It is attempting to explain these realities.
September 30 at 12:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley And I do think it's worthwhile to point out that a lot of scientific objections require a presumption that certain natural processes have always occurred in the same way and at the same rates.
September 30 at 12:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley Which is not necessarily true when dealing with supernatural events.
September 30 at 12:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley (such as, for example, the creation of the world)
September 30 at 12:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund, might be right about the pre-deluvian world. But certainly the story that is handed on to us is in the style of a myth. And more true that most histories.
September 30 at 12:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante look it didn't happen in some meta-reality which was SO different from ours that it can only be hinted at in dark figures. It was two people, in a place. Sure, the story is streamlined, but there's no reason whatever to think it isnt historical
September 30 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Having said that, I want to dial it back as far as possible without retracting it.
September 30 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am just talking about the way the story is written.
September 30 at 12:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh dear and now we're in the "myth that is more true than reality" business. This is just Hinduism, guys
September 30 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nonsense.
September 30 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I never claimed that.
September 30 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just think that the Genesis account is more true than many histories I have read.
September 30 at 12:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Largely because many histories have a poor accounting of reality.
September 30 at 12:43pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante many parables are more true in that sense than many badly written histories. But parables never happened
September 30 at 12:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...a fortiori...
September 30 at 12:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you cannot make the real historical existence of Adam and Eve incidentl to the parabolic "meaning" or there really is no point to the Christian religion
September 30 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No one is doing that.
September 30 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What he said.^
September 30 at 12:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the meaning of Genesis is historical; our ancestors were and did X, and this is why we are here as we are, and this we why Jesus (really, historically) came to fix it. The meaning of Genesis isnt like the meaning of Coelho's "The Alchemist" or "Le Petit Prince"
September 30 at 12:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You confuse myth and parable.
September 30 at 12:47pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante they aren't different for the purpose at hand
September 30 at 12:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The point of myth is to describe a reality that is transcendent in human terms.
September 30 at 12:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley I learned that a "myth" is about things that didn't happen vs. a "legend", which is about things that might not have happened.
September 30 at 12:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But they are!
September 30 at 12:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman By myth I mean what I said above.
September 30 at 12:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, the *meaning* is historical. No one here would deny that.
September 30 at 12:48pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is a much more coherent account.
September 30 at 12:48pm · Like
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Michael Bolin "A lot of scientific objections require a presumption that certain natural processes have always occurred in the same way and at the same rates."
What are you getting at here? Are you questioning the standand account of Earth's history and the common descent of creatures including man?
September 30 at 12:48pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so, Adam and Eve "existed" in some meta-reality which is SO different from ours that "exist" might even be equivocal here, and the "reality" can only be conveyed in dark figures?
September 30 at 12:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman exist certainly is not equivocal.
September 30 at 12:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But there is no reason to strictly rule out polygenism as stated above.
September 30 at 12:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The reality, yes, could only be conveyed in figures.
September 30 at 12:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this is getting hand-wavey
September 30 at 12:51pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Michael, yes but only as a possibility: I'm happy enough to read Genesis in light of the standard evolutionary account.
September 30 at 12:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley An account which is today's version of the crystalline spheres.
September 30 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Pius XII tells us that the Genesis accounts "in simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people." He also states that they pertain to history in a true sense, but that what that true sense is has yet to be fully determined.
September 30 at 12:51pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Yep!
September 30 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha and I aren't Catholic
September 30 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin J. Escalante: I understand that, but one can only carry on so many conversations at once.
September 30 at 12:53pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante So Pius is no trump card. But there he is certainly wafflier than the whole tradition before hin
September 30 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Katie Duda Joel, I will answer any question tNET throws my way.
September 30 at 12:55pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante My yep was for Samantha's point about handwaving, not for Pius
September 30 at 12:55pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict This conversation is wonderful and makes me so happy to read. I wish I weren't at work or I'd get involved. This Genesis topic of back-and-forth is fascinating.
September 30 at 12:55pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Wafflier than...all the tradition before him except for the exceptions.
September 30 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Edward: There I must disagree. The crystalline spheres were a highly speculative explanation, whereas common descent has been established beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence for it is overwhelming.
September 30 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Which exceptions, Matt?
September 30 at 12:57pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante You might have Maximos; you don't have Augustine
September 30 at 12:58pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It comes to the fore again and is scrutinized because, obviously, of recent discoveries that, even on a basic level, without quibbling over details, and even drawing far back from the over reach and claims of many people based on these discoveries, radically change our understanding of how nature operates and how the universe is.
September 30 at 12:58pm · Like
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Michael Bolin There is nothing strange about Pius XII being "wafflier" than the preceding tradition. He has to take into account new knowledge that his predecessors did not. If we find it suspicious that he does so, we misunderstand revelation, which is not a substitute for natural knowledge.
September 30 at 12:58pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson To deny that these new insights into nature have any bearing on how we understand theology or philosophy is, I think, to cause great scandal and to live in an unreal world. To be sure, our insight into nature will always be changing, and will always be radically incomplete, but we cannot cordon that off from theology and philosophy.
September 30 at 1:00pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson To admit the above is NOT to be a MODERNIST, but to admit the integration that that was fundamental to the older philosophy and theology - to live by perennial principles.
September 30 at 1:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Next you'll tell us "there is no turtle".... Freaking modernist.
September 30 at 1:04pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin Jeff: I'll go further and boldly assert that the world was not actually created on October 23, 4004 BC.
September 30 at 1:05pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley This is kinda fun: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5regnans.htm
"4. And moreover (we declare) her to be deprived of her pretended title to the aforesaid crown and of all lordship, dignity and privilege whatsoever.
5. And also (declare) the nobles, subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to her, to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from lordship. fealty and obedience; and we do, by authority of these presents , so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the above said matters. We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication."
September 30 at 1:08pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe yeah, and people blame Elizabeth for being suspicious of Catholics.
September 30 at 1:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley She had only herself to blame.
September 30 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley
September 30 at 1:10pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Michael Bolin, everyone knows the world was created on March 25th. It was fitting because that was the date of the annunciation.
September 30 at 1:11pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia this whole discussion of creation is why TAC doesn't know how to do theology....
September 30 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Ussher and his heretical splinter sect.
September 30 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Yes, I fully expect to be anathematized when Scott gets around to reading the foregoing discussion.
September 30 at 1:17pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley He's taken to only criticizing the last five or ten comments, regardless of context.
September 30 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Michael, perhaps geocentrism would be more apt to compare to evolution than the crystalline spheres: in the former case, there was a significant period of time when there wasn't any evidence by which one could form a reasonable doubt.
September 30 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I always like the way those old popes write: "On all these we decree the sentences of excommunication, of anathema, of our perpetual condemnation and interdict; of privation of dignities, honours and property on them and their descendants, and of declared unfitness for such possessions; of the confiscation of their goods and of the crime of treason; and these and the other sentences, censures and punishments which are inflicted by canon law on heretics and are set out in our aforesaid missive, we decree to have fallen on all these men to their damnation."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Alex06/alex06inter.htm
September 30 at 1:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Elizabeth I, the bitch-queen of England is among the most evil and horrid figures in history. She is perhaps slightly less bad than the evil dictators of the 20th century.
September 30 at 1:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley (re. Martin Luther)
September 30 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia IDK if there is an analogue, Edward. Geocentrism can be rejected by having greater precision. There is no greater precision possible with that part of evolution that devolves into history.
September 30 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, but that is exactly the point: the historicity of the evolutionary hypothesis places a hard limit on its certitude.
September 30 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante God bless the memory of Elizabeth! If only she had done her job more thoroughly
September 30 at 1:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, that is a completely absurd claim.
September 30 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley ^revisionist
September 30 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is historical.^
September 30 at 1:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe historical(ly inaccurate)* fixed it for you
September 30 at 1:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I assume you did not intend to call me revisionist, Edward.
September 30 at 1:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, Samantha.
September 30 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe pretty sure he was talking about me
September 30 at 1:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Refresh the page, my comment was first.
September 30 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You're right!
September 30 at 1:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley And, Samantha, Elizabeth I : Ireland :: Stalin : Ukraine.
September 30 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh really? She intentionally cause a famine there that killed 7 million people?
September 30 at 1:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley She intentionally oppressed and set out to systematically destroy a whole culture and way of life.
September 30 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (Or, if she didn't, her puppet-masters did)
September 30 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, Ireland is no stranger to famine
September 30 at 1:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And thousands upon thousands of her faithful subjects were murdered by her command, simply for being Catholic.
September 30 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ok, maybe I'll revise it: Elizabeth I : Ireland :: Lenin : Ukraine
September 30 at 1:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Still pretty bad.
September 30 at 1:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The quote Ed cited gives her some pretty good reason to assume that Catholics weren't actually allowed to be her faithful subjects
September 30 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Elizabeth I : Ireland :: Franco : Basque country
September 30 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is part of her legacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
Great Famine (Ireland) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Great Famine (Irish: an Gorta Mór) was a period of...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
September 30 at 1:30pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley As I said, Samantha, she incurred the punishment through her actions: in similar circumstances her predecessor, Henry II, did penance in sackcloth and ashes.
September 30 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Elizabeth did not cause the Great Famine
September 30 at 1:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley She established an order that led to it, though.
September 30 at 1:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley That's why I switched from Stalin to Lenin.
September 30 at 1:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That proclamation came as a response to her reign of terror.
September 30 at 1:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I think Franco is a better choice. Tyranny cuts across confessional lines
September 30 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante God bless Elizabeth
September 30 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And Gustavus Adolphus
September 30 at 1:32pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And the Lord Protector
September 30 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nope. Adolphus was an invader. terrible
September 30 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Cromwell was a beast
September 30 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Elizabeth was a monarch like most of her time, except not Catholic, and a woman, which presented her with some difficulties.
September 30 at 1:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the man who gives us "posthumous execution" ain't much to "bless"
September 30 at 1:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Successful "derail" of an argument you were on the wrong side of, by the way, Edward Langley.
September 30 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I was just giving you a way to save face, Daniel Lendman
September 30 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not going to defend England's treatment of Ireland, but ELizabeth didn't start that, and she isn't responsible for the worst of it.
September 30 at 1:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And you can hardly blame her for distrusting Catholics, given her situation
September 30 at 1:36pm · Like
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Edward Langley "1 Omnis causa primaria plus est influens super causatum suum quam causa universalis secunda."
September 30 at 1:37pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Catholic establishment was against her before she was even born
September 30 at 1:37pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In an attempt to derail the derail, I'll just note that historicity does not impose a hard limit on certitude. It is probabilistic in nature, to be sure, but probable arguments can still conclude beyond a reasonable doubt.
September 30 at 1:38pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Jehoshaphat Escalante just likes Elizabeth as part of the contingent political circumstances that legitimated Protestantism.
September 30 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley As the arguments for geocentrism seemed to at the time.
September 30 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If you can blame her for the potato famine, you can probably also blame her for pluralism in the American colonies, and therefore the Godless Madisonian heresy that has spawned our current age of relativism.
September 30 at 1:40pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Yes, I'm fine with that.
September 30 at 1:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Henry VIII was weak, Elizabeth I was eeeevil.
September 30 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Or, alternatively give her credit for freedom of conscience in the new world! Huzzah!
September 30 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante No, I actually love Elizabeth. I named my daughter after her and own her opera omnia
September 30 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin That might be true about geocentrism.
September 30 at 1:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Now you're talking, Samantha!
September 30 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Almost wrote a dissertation on her
September 30 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Henry VIII was so evil, you're crazy
September 30 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, has everyone read Wolf Hall?
September 30 at 1:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know, with his wives . . .
September 30 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe so good.
September 30 at 1:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 30 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Henry VIII wasn't that bad. He was intemperate and imprudent. Not evil, so much.
September 30 at 1:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not evil like Elizabeth.
September 30 at 1:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know how we all think we can know these things.
September 30 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin But still it is not quite the same. Geocentrism was the reasonable opinion because there were some reasons to think it true and not many reasons to think it false. But common descent is the reasonable opinion not merely because of a lack of contrary arguments but because the positive arguments are so strong, much more so than they were for geocentrism.
September 30 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Really?
September 30 at 1:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Common descent, as in from an original organism all life as we know it descended.
September 30 at 1:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Appalling English.^
September 30 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Henry wasn't merely intemperate. He knew what he was doing.
September 30 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I apologize.
September 30 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin And so if the intention is to imply that common descent might be overturned like geocentrism, the comparison is inapt.
September 30 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't see why you guys make excuses for Henry VIII and save all the vituperation for Good Queen Bess.
September 30 at 1:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Probably because she's a woman
September 30 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Henry VIII was a man
September 30 at 1:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Probably.
September 30 at 1:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I mean, it is probably that we save the vituperation for her because she is a woman.
September 30 at 1:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley New Conspiracy Theory: Henry VIII was a woman.
September 30 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman If it is any consolation, Samantha, I think Oliver Cromwell was much worse.
September 30 at 1:48pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Shakespeare wrote Elizabeth into existence. She was his best play
September 30 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Cromwell was grand.
September 30 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not if you don't like murder
September 30 at 1:50pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is perhaps harder to accept a woman, by nature a harbinger of life, as an evil tyrant who ruthlessly kills her own subjects.
September 30 at 1:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as a Catholic, I can see that the ostensibly Catholic Franco was a tyrant and a murderer. And even if he was fighting loathsome godless commies, it still isn't right
September 30 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante You mean like Wallenstein?
September 30 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Wallenstein was a thug. See "live by the sword, die by the..."
September 30 at 1:52pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And I find that Catholics generally remember Cromwell's Irish campaign but not the cause (the "Irish St Bartholomew's Day")
September 30 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wallenstein? As in Albrecht von Wallenstein, the great champion of the 30 years war?
September 30 at 1:54pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman accept for the treachery part at the end.
September 30 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He did die like a thug.
September 30 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, I find unqualified common descent a hard pill to swallow.
September 30 at 1:59pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Why's that?
September 30 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I can't overcome the difficulty of how the higher can come from the lower.
September 30 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson ^So you have a problem with Genesis and man arising from mud?
September 30 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I explained that in a talk that Pater Edmund linked to some thousands of comments ago.
September 30 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I have to admit, regardless of whatever TAC's problems might be, I don't trust people who are extremely certain as to "how to do" theology. It's been a bit of a problem since, I dunno, Christ was crucified at the urging of church officials.
The best of theologians seem to acknowledge severe limitations, of course, even as they do the best they can.
September 30 at 2:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Link it again!
September 30 at 2:03pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I don't have the link. I wasn't the one who put it online.
September 30 at 2:03pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Ah, here we go: https://docs.google.com/.../0B1NKBnJwd.../edit...
And Man Became a Living Being.pdf - Google Drive
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
September 30 at 2:03pm · Like
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Michael Bolin To make a long story short, the higher doesn't come from the lower simply, but the lower plays a role in the coming to be of the higher.
September 30 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I don't know much about history, but I'm happy to think that Henry VIII and Elizabeth weren't terribly nice. What's more, they were wrong.
September 30 at 2:11pm · Like
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Joel HF I say this without reference to any alleged oppression of the Irish, a people only tolerable (though perhaps even heroic) while oppressed.
September 30 at 2:16pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF There, that should unite all sides against me.
September 30 at 2:14pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley Now I'll have to send half of my ancestors after you, Joel HF.
September 30 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's some sexist bullshit guys. You suck.
September 30 at 2:42pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley You're welcome.
September 30 at 2:20pm · Like
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Edward Langley
September 30 at 2:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<It is perhaps harder to accept a woman, by nature a harbinger of life, as an evil tyrant who ruthlessly kills her own subjects.>> That, specifically, sucks.
September 30 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^That was an historical claim, and I think it is true about much of history.
September 30 at 2:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe no double standards for tyrants
September 30 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think there is.^
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman As a fact.
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe maybe so, but you also admitted to falling prey to it yourself
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not as a judgement statement.
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm talking about what ought to be.
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, I do fall prey to it, myself.
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You seem pretty blase about admitting you're own inclination to apply double standards
September 30 at 2:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe well, then, repent
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps. But, in this case it is largely do the fact that I don't see what I should repent to.
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Apropos of a few lines of a discussion I read in earlier in the day... Jody Haaf Garneau, you seem to be rightly wary of attributing the opinions of disciples to their teachers/ schools. That is all. But I only read a few lines, so I really don't know what all y'all are talking about.
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Also, whatever Samantha is talking about, I sense that she is right.
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner Goodbye
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think that in certain circumstances, a double standard is reasonable.
September 30 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael Bolin, I disagree that animals are insufficient agents to bring about their like.
September 30 at 2:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I think that double standard is reasonable only insofar as their are inherent differences between men and women.
September 30 at 2:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ethical obligations apply equally to men and women
September 30 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe sin is sin.
September 30 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman True.
September 30 at 2:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But culpability is mitigated by circumstances.
September 30 at 2:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe making excuses for someone's sinfulness based on their sex is bullshit.
September 30 at 2:42pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman And one's sex can be a mitigating circumstance.
September 30 at 2:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe nope.
September 30 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think you actually hold this:making excuses for someone's sinfulness based on their sex is bullsh**t.
September 30 at 2:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yes I do
September 30 at 2:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you're acting like making those excuses isn't part of thousands of years of history of expecting greater moral performance of women, and punishing them much more severely when they failed.
September 30 at 2:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If a mouse runs across the floor and both a man and a woman jump up on chairs and scream, you would blame both, but you would blame the man more.
September 30 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^not sin
September 30 at 2:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^No. But it makes my point.
September 30 at 2:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe let's talk about actual examples where double standards have been used to hurt women and excuse men, because that's the actual subtext of this conversation
September 30 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe never mind though, got to go do stuff
September 30 at 2:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Now that is bullsh**t.^
September 30 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You can try to place me into a "sexist box" but I simply don't fit in it.
September 30 at 2:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I admit that a double standard has been used to hurt women, throughout history, but I also deny that I am part off that double standard in making my general claim that, "one's sex can be a mitigating circumstance."
September 30 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe that's not all you said
September 30 at 2:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you cheerfully admitted to judging Elizabeth more harshly because she's a woman
September 30 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and you offered an explanation of that based on universal claims
September 30 at 2:39pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman The part where you are angry at me is the part where I admitted that I might be influenced by a double standard that has been part of the history of the world for thousands of years and I don't know what "the mean" is.
September 30 at 2:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, instead of engaging in a discussion to help discern where sex as a mitigating circumstance has its limits, I am dismissed as a sexist.
September 30 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You added the "cheerful"part.
September 30 at 2:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was just trying to be honest.
September 30 at 2:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe how about 'unrepentantly?' It certainly didn't lead to any amending of your condemnation of Elizabeth.
September 30 at 2:41pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia just type bullshit
September 30 at 2:41pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the asterisk doesn't help
September 30 at 2:41pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe it's true
September 30 at 2:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe my husband used to be a Baptist. I'm not used to swearing
September 30 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't know how that would change my claims, Samantha. Because I don't know how far I should consider her sex as a mitigating or exacerbating cause of her guilt.
September 30 at 2:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^That would be a good conversation.
September 30 at 2:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Someone can recognize that he might be in error in his judgement, but still not see what the right judgement looks like.
September 30 at 2:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just don't do it at all! It's never possible to know what factors might mitigate a person's guilt, because only God knows the heart
September 30 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^^That would be me.
September 30 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it is possible to consider some factors, in general.
September 30 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Possible and helpful.
September 30 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And we must make judgements about people throughout history. But never judge them finally.
September 30 at 2:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It should be obvious that murder is no more excusable for a man than for a woman
September 30 at 2:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Depends on the circumstances.
September 30 at 2:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that's just obvious. Men create life, too. Motherhood is no more sacred than fatherhood.
September 30 at 2:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Saying the reverse is sexist drivel dressed up as piety
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe depends on the circumstances, but not the sexes
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If a man killed his wife simply to marry another woman, that would be worse than a woman who killed her husband for being with another woman.
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Daniel, you appear to be attempting to dig your way out of a hole you dug earlier. But all of your moving of dirt is just making it worse. Just admit that it was a sexist comment to say "crimes against humanity are worse when committed by a female".
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^not relevant
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
September 30 at 2:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah.
September 30 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am on sound footing.
September 30 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Plus Jeff, that is not what I said.
September 30 at 2:47pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I think you just realize the evil more when a woman, who you usually see as a nurturing person, is having people killed.
September 30 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe you are allying yourself with a tradition of judging women more harshly than men. that tradition has done terrible harm. the burden that that isn't evil is on you.
September 30 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It is how it was read.
September 30 at 2:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I admitted that it was possible and even probable that I judge Elizabeth more harshly because I believe that women have a more life nurturing role than men, in general.
September 30 at 2:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I would have expected you to be able to see past crass stereotypes.
September 30 at 2:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I love you, Big Angry, you're making yourself into one.
September 30 at 2:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Bad white males have said what you said. You must be a bad white male.
September 30 at 2:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Elizabeth wasn't a mother, however
September 30 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe not what I said
September 30 at 2:50pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick If a wrestler shoots a person, and a mother shoots the person (both out of anger and with no good reason to), I think most people are going to be more shocked that the mother did so then the wrestler. That doesn't mean they don't deserve the same punishment, but the one does give the appearance of being a greater evil (and may actually be a greater evil because of her role as mother)
September 30 at 2:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What?!?!
September 30 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia therefore Elizabeth was doubly unnatural and even more subject to rebuke
September 30 at 2:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hahahaha
September 30 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley 'Queen Elizabeth was the "Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a success.'
September 30 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the whole idea that "women are the guardians of sexual purity" is a modern construct, if we want to talk about sexual morality and double-standards anyhow
September 30 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But Samantha, you must acknowledge that for years women have been pigeon-holing white men as inherently sexist and bias, especially if they point out a difference in the sexes. This is clearly the sub-text of our conversation.
September 30 at 2:53pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson BoYz will B bOyZ
September 30 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Truth Michael.
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^modernist^
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia women were to weak to be culpable in the past
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia hahahahaha
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Watch "snapped".
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^^That's sexist.
September 30 at 2:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia somehow Jeff, I don't think I will
September 30 at 2:55pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Is it a lacking the medium?
September 30 at 2:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley 'Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress. Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the Declaration of Independence. Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse divided against itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead.'
September 30 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It seems that sexism could go either way, bye the bye. Why not just as well assert that when they snap women don't deserve the same punishment as men because they must have snapped for a reason as opposed to living out their...general and naturally more virtuous nature??
September 30 at 2:56pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I like white men, obviously, or I would've been out of here a looooooong time ago
September 30 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Hell hath no fury like....
September 30 at 2:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, you wanted me to admit fault earlier, but I would like to point out that admitting the possibility of fault was precisely what got me in trouble in the first place.
I thought I was being liberal minded about the possibility of my being influenced by historically driven sexist tendencies.
September 30 at 2:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol
September 30 at 2:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't object to admitting the possibility of fault, I object to what seemed to me to your unrepentant attitude about the fault
September 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Trust me admitting fault is a marriage skill.... Admit early and often
September 30 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe subsequent comments confirmed the lack of repentence
September 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And in light of a fruitful discussion about such influences, I would be very willing to revise my evaluation of Elizabeth I, since one can always be in error about such judgements.
September 30 at 2:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley "George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father of Our Country. Then the Constitution of the United States was adopted to secure domestic hostility. Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the right to keep bare arms."
September 30 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, perhaps both Elizabeth I and Henry VIII were eeeevil.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just don't know that I have anything to repent of yet, Samantha.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or, if I do, to what extent.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill First appologize, then perform an investigation to figure out what you did... And don't do it again.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ok, well the thing you said about the potential women have for motherhood making them more culpable for murder is drivel dressed as piety
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, I admit fault with my wife all the time.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is the fault of the Patriarchy.
September 30 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Sed contra - or not so latent sexism - what does the first TAC [s]exploitation film present us with:
http://youtu.be/c0wyUr_2FyA
A TAC Film - DORM After Hours
What do girls do in their dorm after curfew? Film for the TAC (Freshmen) 2013 Spring Formal dance. Freshmen -...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 30 at 3:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It should be a presumption that men and women sin equally when and if they murder. If you want to say differently, the burden of proof is on you
September 30 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I don't think I said that, but, regardless, at least that is worthy of discussion.
September 30 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Just admit fault and recant your error...)
September 30 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Film not viewable on mobile device, wth!!
September 30 at 3:03pm · Like
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Joel HF Tolstoy would say the women sin much more, is my take. And he is noted and beloved (by women!) for his keen eye into women's psyche.
September 30 at 3:13pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF }:-)
September 30 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF, you scamp
September 30 at 3:04pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley "The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are cultivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains between France and Spain."
September 30 at 3:04pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Edward, why are you trolling?
September 30 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley A little levity goes a long way.
September 30 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia habit and custom of tNET
September 30 at 3:05pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^dissertation.
September 30 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7p9CiBJfbik
BECKET: The Best Scene
The most compelling and gripping scene of the movie. it shows the authority of truth and spirituality over others. it...
YOUTUBE.COM
September 30 at 3:05pm · Like
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Joel HF Weren't you going to ask me why * I * was trolling, Daniel? Are you trying to hurt my feelings?
September 30 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ...I'm sorry Joel... I didn't realize.
September 30 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was surprised you didn't get more bites on your Ireland troll-bait, Joel.
September 30 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Don't make it worse! <sobs>
September 30 at 3:07pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, for being a sexist I married an incredibly strong woman who is better than me at everything that we both do, so thankfully she doesn't do all the things I do.
September 30 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Most of the people here went to TAC. Going to TAC is incontrovertible proof that the Irish are tolerable only when oppressed.
September 30 at 3:08pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel-- your choice of wife (or rather, her choice of you) is to your credit.
September 30 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss We women are more culpable for EVERYTHING.
September 30 at 3:09pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss (can you guess the missing premises?)
September 30 at 3:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Great, now I have this on record.^
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF A toast to our wives and sweethearts!
September 30 at 3:10pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF (May they never meet)
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Now that Rebecca is here we should talk about why JPII is going to be declared a doctor of the church, but probably shouldn't be.
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley My wife makes a mean loaf of bread.
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine Joliat Feil
September 30 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Crap, you can't stop talking about gender now.
September 30 at 3:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe not gender we're talking about sex.
September 30 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Oh, I think we finished talking about -g-e-n-d-e-r- sex a while ago, now we're just antagonizing people.
September 30 at 3:11pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss sex....gender...all the good stuff.
September 30 at 3:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel was trying to throw people off the scent by accusing others of trolling
September 30 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Is it metaphysically possible to troll on this thread?
September 30 at 3:12pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ok, seriously, I have to do stuff. Daniel, heed my call to repentence.
September 30 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think the real question is if it is possible not to troll.
September 30 at 3:13pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley What's this "stuff" you're talking about, Samantha?
September 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, if my wife tells me to repent, then I will.
September 30 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "A polygon is a man has married many women"
September 30 at 3:14pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I have no idea what you've been discussing, but did recognize the Anguished English quotations, which bring joy to my life. I'm supposed to be making pizza. According to my Feminine Mystique.
September 30 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF After all, it may be that the people who post are all jaded souls with pitch-black hearts, but perhaps some innocent TAC graduate is lurking online, or a saintly tutor has been shown this thread by some well-meaning friend. These too, may be trolled.
September 30 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia it's not trolling if everyone knows what is going on. just like Joel HF wrote
September 30 at 3:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Well, that's my point. The audience is larger than the participants.
September 30 at 3:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. That is scary.
September 30 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia lurkers be damned!
September 30 at 3:17pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And add to that list, despite @Matthew J. Peterson's futile disclaimers, there may be some head of a hiring committee, who sees this and, ashenfaced, slowly reaches for a black mark to place next to a certain name. This is the true art of trolling.
September 30 at 3:23pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia I spent one section of junior lab finishing every sentence with "isn't that right Miss soandso"
September 30 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think she thought the glare would make me catch fire, but Larry the Eliminator was already glaring at me....
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^See, I'm sweetness and light in person. Ask any of the 06ers on here.
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I may have been drunk
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't remember. I could tag her and ask?
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF's glare actually does make people catch fire
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe *I'm* sweetness and light.
September 30 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia <-----jerk
September 30 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The problem with doing stuff, is that it is boring
September 30 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm at "work"
September 30 at 3:21pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I can think of a canary islander that wroth her scorn at you more than once... Librarians have too many projectiles at hand.
September 30 at 3:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF My excuse when they check the timestamps is multitasking. I mean "explanation."
September 30 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I have no excuse. Nor do I bother making one. that would be effeminate.
September 30 at 3:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When she would lose her voice was the best entertainment.
September 30 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Why did no one want to talk about my cool theory about Adam and Eve?
September 30 at 3:24pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe I'm doing "stuff," too! School run! Errands! Why are you tagging me in? Am I suppose to feign shock and horror at something Joel HF has said?
September 30 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Samantha, first you need to tell me about the ontological status of this alternate "world".
September 30 at 3:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, no. Just wanted to keep you apprised, Catherine Joliat Feil.
September 30 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia because it was idle TAC effeminate speculation
September 30 at 3:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe jerk
September 30 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I missed your theory.... Too many posts ago to go back
September 30 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Ok, will try to catch up later and promise to resurrect topics if necessary.
September 30 at 3:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia one can never go back, only forward. I'm still trying to get Samantha to tell me she hates me again.
September 30 at 3:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Just because I have lily white hands, and like to lie on a couch eating bonbons, and watching "Veronica Mars" you call me effiminate?
September 30 at 3:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia yes, yes I do
September 30 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund The first part of this is advice for Big Angry Daniel, the second part is hurtful, untrue, and has no basis in reality:
September 30 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I hope that wasn't a dis of my girl Veronica Mars, Joel.
September 30 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Actually, I dressed up as a woman for halloween sophmore year, and had one of the tutors actually convinced that I was "Cousin Lola" visiting from the heartland. Joe Zepeda kicked me out, the bloody tyrant!
September 30 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe, whether or not I'm actually effeminate, those are all things I like to do.
September 30 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ah, Michael, you know I didn't mean it.
September 30 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe good, good
September 30 at 3:29pm · Like
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Joel HF ^For a certain value of "bon-bon." What are bon-bons?
September 30 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe something sweet and delicious?
September 30 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know, but it sounds good. I want one.
September 30 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- google translate is failing me. English?
September 30 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and here's the fun theory again, for those who missed it.Here is a fun theory about the first parentage of Adam and Eve for tNET's consideration: What if Adam and Eve were not prior to humanity in time, but only by causality? Philosophers these days (not our kind) love to posit possible worlds. In this theory, Adam and Eve existed in a different world than ours at the time when they committed the first sin, but their actions in that world were determinative of ours. So, the idea is, Adam and Eve sinned, and in so doing, determined the history of the world in which they later came to be, as well as affecting the course of that world going forward.So, then we retain original sin and first parenthood without having to look for one historical first pair. There was a first pair, causally, but they might not have been first in time.
September 30 at 3:31pm · Like
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Pater Edmund First part: You do something stupid (Scheiße bauen is a bit more emphatic actually...), she gets mad, you apologize.
Second part: .... no, I'm not translating the second part.
September 30 at 3:32pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill What do you mean "what are Bon bons?"!?!?
September 30 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill
September 30 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/.../exps6813...
HOSTEDMEDIA.REIMANPUB.COM
September 30 at 3:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the main reason I don't like to swear on tNET is that Pater Edmund is on tNET.
September 30 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia plus, it is more gauche when a woman swears
September 30 at 3:35pm · Unlike · 6
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Jeff Neill Um... I do not want to know the things heard on the other side of the confessional.
September 30 at 3:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe well tough for you Jeff, cause I don't go to confession!
September 30 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sinister accusations.... Michael Beitia
September 30 at 3:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yet.
September 30 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill
September 30 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh, were you not talking to me, Jeff?
September 30 at 3:36pm · Like
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Pater Edmund What do new developments in Russian civic architecture tell us about the current regime in Russia? http://www.andrewcusack.com/.../30/russias-classical-future/
Russia’s Classical Future | andrewcusack.com
The Supreme Court and Higher Arbitration Courts have...
ANDREWCUSACK.COM
September 30 at 3:37pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I was and wasn't.
September 30 at 3:37pm · Like
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Pater Edmund (If anything).
September 30 at 3:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have trolled, and I have not trolled
#esoterictrollgnosis
September 30 at 3:37pm · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund I thought you meant I'm used to hearing more scandalous things than Sam swearing...
September 30 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ooooh. right. it is still so weird to me that you hear confessions.
September 30 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Are you a priest or brother?
September 30 at 3:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater, Jeff, use your Latin
September 30 at 3:39pm · Unlike · 1
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Pater Edmund priest
September 30 at 3:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I knew Johannes in the class behind me.
September 30 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think "Paters" can sometimes be brothers in certain orders.
September 30 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill So yes, I don't think you can scandalize pater Edmond. Although you can disappoint him.
September 30 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia 25652
#palindromegnosis
September 30 at 3:42pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Palendromordnelap
September 30 at 3:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia racecar
September 30 at 3:42pm · Like
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Nina Rachele Pater Well, it means classical architecture and architects are going to be continued to be dissed by modern architects as tools of authoritarian regimes. (Thanks a lot, Putin, you're a champ.)
September 30 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here I am irl being manly:
http://m.quickmeme.com/.../d421eb89c752cd0b5bee086983cdcf...
QUICKMEME.COM
September 30 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia HEDONISM BOT!
September 30 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe My son and I are playing Dominion. If I lose I will blame tNET.
September 30 at 3:46pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe He's pretty good, so it might not actually be tNET's fault, but tNET will be blamed nonetheless
September 30 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Pater, my wife and I laughed a lot.
September 30 at 4:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman She thinks both parts are true.
September 30 at 4:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I think I know this one. You say something stupid, she gets angry, you apologize. She says something stupid, you get angry, she gets angry, you apologize. Yes?
September 30 at 4:12pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I would like to point out for the record that I am the ONLY person male or female in the ENTIRE HISTORY of tNET who has apologized not once, but multiple times!
September 30 at 4:13pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill All other wounds were intended.
September 30 at 4:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Although there were some justifiable points where admitting error or offense would have been appropriate. (But the troll doesn't apologize for its existence. )
September 30 at 4:19pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Respondeo dicendum quod contingit aliquid esse per se notum dupliciter, uno modo, secundum se et non quoad nos; alio modo, secundum se et quoad nos. Ex hoc enim aliqua propositio est per se nota, quod praedicatum includitur in ratione subiecti, ut homo est animal, nam animal est de ratione hominis. Si igitur notum sit omnibus de praedicato et de subiecto quid sit, propositio illa erit omnibus per se nota, sicut patet in primis demonstrationum principiis, quorum termini sunt quaedam communia quae nullus ignorat, ut ens et non ens, totum et pars, et similia. Si autem apud aliquos notum non sit de praedicato et subiecto quid sit, propositio quidem quantum in se est, erit per se nota, non tamen apud illos qui praedicatum et subiectum propositionis ignorant. Et ideo contingit, ut dicit Boetius in libro de hebdomadibus, quod quaedam sunt communes animi conceptiones et per se notae, apud sapientes tantum, ut incorporalia in loco non esse.
September 30 at 4:39pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe My son won. He is 6.
September 30 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have apologized on TNET, but never tNET.
September 30 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Daniel, you need to apologize to tNET
September 30 at 5:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, you heresiarch, you need to repent.
September 30 at 5:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Bad news, Texas: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../ebola-us-cdc_n_5909394...
Ebola Diagnosed In U.S. For The First Time
A patient was diagnosed with Ebola in the United State for the first time, CNBC reported, citing the U.S. Centers for...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
September 30 at 5:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. it was at the insistence of Pater. He's the heresiarch. I'm just his first disciple.
September 30 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I apologized more than once and retracted once. But I do apologize for insensitivity if not insensibility.
September 30 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia since tNET is directed by the world spirit, and is unidirectional, I see no need to apologize. It only moves onward and upward, never in reverse.
September 30 at 5:06pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I wish someone would try to bring up how Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning.
September 30 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But no one is that foolish, I suppose.
September 30 at 5:07pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia oh Matthew J. Peterson and I have had that argument for years.... he still hasn't admitted he was wrong
September 30 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF He thinks Brady is better? But why?
September 30 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Probably related to his love of Madison.
September 30 at 5:11pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Samantha I've done some sorrying. But like Daniel, never to TNET. TNET needs no reconciliation. It is unifying by nature.
September 30 at 5:12pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Dumping random thoughts here to pad stats.
Champions league commentators keep saying that a player is "disinterested." I think they mean uninterested. A player in a game by definition has "interest" in the result of the game and cannot be "disinterested."
#confluenceofphilosophyandfootball
September 30 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson There is no need to bring up the obvious: Brady is the guy you want with two minutes to go in the superbowl, and anyone sensible would choose him over Manning in that situation. I'm no fan. I just report the facts.
September 30 at 5:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And I was remarkably subdued when my prophetic utterances re the results of the last superbowl came to pass.
September 30 at 5:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Eli > Peyton or Brady in post season
September 30 at 5:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And as long as you aren't getting too close to other people's bodily fluids, you have no reason to fear Ebola, right?
September 30 at 5:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They report it like it's the flu, but in reality this is transmitted by some serious bodily fluid action, right?
September 30 at 5:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I would imagine it's primarily spread like an STD but no one speaks about it that way, curiously.
September 30 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--when you made your "prophetic utterance" Denver was not favored to win it all. It had something like a 1 in 13 chance, iirc.
September 30 at 6:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Does anyone else think it might be necessary to establish a support group for the spouses and significant others of TNET addicts?
September 30 at 6:24pm · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF Re the "To our wives and Sweethearts (may they never meet)" thing--this is the traditional toast (and response) made on all ships at sea in the English Navy every Saturday. In June 2013, Vice-Admiral David Steel--infamous man!--ordered the toast changed to "Our Families." O tempora! O mores!
September 30 at 6:25pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman Who doesn't love Madison?
September 30 at 6:25pm · Like
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John Ashman His only error was overestimating mankind and underestimating evil.
September 30 at 6:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sheesh, my attempt at stirring the pot gets going when I am absent! I will post something later on my questions about Berquists definition (I purposely overstated the issue as bait) Unfortunately not enough time, but I will do a few hit and runs
1. I have never heard of the 9 eves thing. Au contraire, by definition mitochondrial Eve is a single woman, with an unbroken line of descent. It has been shift before, just as Y chomosomal Adam has, when older lines of descent were discovered. But there are not "9 Eves" and the genetic science wouldn't be able to even make that claim, only the last of that 9 would be discoverable (as the other lines before her would be extinct and no one could say that there ever was a bottleneck)
Daniel Lendman, you remember Fr. Dodd's class...or was that after you left...on Divine Action...my paper of on monogenism and evolutionary theory. In one word summation, those who claim science shows pologenism are idiots, who neither know the science nor the claims of theology.
2. Langley's foray in speculation over the unprecedented decline in murder reminds me of TAC students doing things like trying to prove the 5th postulate...noble, but could benefit from being aware of the work already done (in my examples case the fact that such a proof has been proved impossible). The fact is, murder rates increased in certain countries with a decline birth rate and aging population with respect to the US. Whiie demographics play a role, that is neither a major factor nor the reason for the unprecedent 20 year deline nationwide in the crime rate. Once again I urge upon people Mueller's formula. log(homicide rate)= c1 +c2 *log(economic fatherhood) + c3*log(proportion of adult males, 18-45, in prison) + c4*log(chance of being executed)+c5*log (abortion rate lagged 16 years)
The first one(c2*log) is an indicator of the moral character of the times and has the most impact. c3 accounts for the incapacitation aspect (we have simply imprisoned a greater percentage of people than any other country...low crime through unjust sentences!) and some of the deterrent effect of punishment. c4 has the least effect, but measures deterrence from capital punishment. c5 has a positive correlation as an indicator of immoral character.
Now, outside of murder, we do find more variation among crimes based on economic situation, age, socio-economic status. But the funny thing about that, such factors as age and status more greatly impact WHAT crimes will be committed, but not that crimes are committed. So different classes and groups may have similar violent crime rates, but distributed differently among different crimes (police,e.g., when one adjusts for the greater male proportion, have the same violent crime rate as everyone else, but distributed differently)
3. While there may be certain similarities with myth, I am with Jehoshaphat Escalante about the historicity of Genesis. The tendency nowadays is to say "the meaning is historical" but notthe history of it, but that is exactly what is to be reject. Moses, e.g., could not be a type of Christ or the parting of the red sea a type of baptism, unless Moses actually existed and actually parted the Red Sea. The very real existence of the people and facts of the scriptures is a lynch pin of Catholic interpretation. Now that doesn't mean every word signifies properly (even Augustine held the 7 days thing to be describing distinction in creation rather than time), but it does mean it is history. I don't suspect Daniel Lendman would disagree with that, ultimately.
And just so we are clear, we already hashed this out on TNET in August....I actually quote from a talk I gave on evolution/polygenism/original sin....it all returns...
September 30 at 7:55pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Apropos of a few scattered comments over the last day or so, I do really like the principle of "as above, so below." I think it makes a lot of lovely sense to consider the human being as a miniature representation of the cosmos, ordered as the cosmos is ordered and containing all the cosmos contains. Thus, much like an individual human being goes through many stages from birth to death, including a sort of "waking up to itself," it makes sense to me to imagine that the biological prerequisite for the immortal soul of a human being might have taken time to develop before God breathed life into man.
We must believe that something different happened with Adam, whoever he was. It seems likely he had biological parents, but that God breathed something new into him and him alone, making him the first of his kind. And as a person grows and becomes, ideally, more and more aware of himself and what he is, so the dawn of humanity was the cosmos becoming able, through man, to consider itself and think on its creator, and praise all things He made. In other words, rationality : man :: man : cosmos.
And the poet's duty, then, is to give voice to the voiceless things. A flower or a squirrel praises God by simply being the thing it is. The poet speaks for speechless nature.
If I just said anything heretical please do let me know.
September 30 at 7:55pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Nothing heretical, even if there are difficulties (e.g. did a non-human nourish a human baby in the womb, and how would that be generation? or did a non-human animal get transformed into man, but that would, in other terms, be death for the animal and life for the man....). There are difficulties, of course, with saying man was created ex nihilo, and admitting the existence of contemporary hominids to. Not a simple subject
September 30 at 7:59pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Adam was the first poet. He named the beasts. This may or not have something to do with why I am hostile towards certain writers of versified didacticism on the subject of animals, who promote their claptrap as poetry...
September 30 at 8:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz BTW, the most recent common ancestor may have been 5000 years ago...cough Noah...cough
September 30 at 8:02pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict You mean Utnapishtim right?
September 30 at 8:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict By the way who on TNET has read the epic of Gilgamesh, and what is your favorite translation? Although it is not a direct translation by any means, I absolutely loved the verse narrative version by Herbert Mason. Magnificent.
September 30 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Isak Benedict, you're starting to sound like someone with this talk of poetry and beasts and heresy... What if... What if tNET needed a peregrine? What if the plots of crappy video games were true!?!
September 30 at 8:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Oh noes!!! You've become that which you sought to slay!
September 30 at 8:08pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict HeeheeheeheehahaBWAHAHAHA
September 30 at 8:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "I am no theologian, but..."
September 30 at 8:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Pretty sure Scott would abhor my gnostic explanation of the cosmos as waking up to itself...
September 30 at 8:10pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict If you could be a bird, intrepid TNETers, what bird would you be? I would be a nuthatch.
September 30 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz MCRA probably not Noah though....I think you need the IAP for that.
One more hit and run before I run:
By woman death entered this world, and by her we all die. (Ecclesiaticus, somewhere)
Yep, women are more guilty of EVERYTHING. She gave us death....gee, thanks a lot women.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm#article4
Article 4. Whether Adam's sin was more grievous than Eve's? - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The first man's sin
Was pride the first man's first sin? What the first man coveted by sinning. Was his sin more grievous than all other sins? Which sinned more grievously, the man or the woman?
NEWADVENT.ORG
September 30 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner What's everybody's favorite opening question about the Odyssey? #gettingoutofthinkingformyselfviatNET
September 30 at 8:18pm · Unlike · 3
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Katherine Gardner Actually, nevermind... the kinds of questions we would likely generate here might not be appropriate for tender young minds.
September 30 at 8:22pm · Like · 6
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Sean Robertson I can't recall our opening question for the first reading, but I remember the Odyssey seminars with Mr. Cain as some of the best classes I had at TAC.
September 30 at 8:24pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The first few lines of the Odyssey indicate that Odysseus seeks to save his soul (psukhe). Does he fail or succeed?
September 30 at 8:24pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Trolling with Thomas, Mr. Kenz?
September 30 at 8:34pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Isak, your comments above re: the cosmos make me think you might be interested in my senior thesis. It's not about evolution, but about the cosmos and its relationship to liturgy. If you'd like a copy, I would be interested in your take on it.
September 30 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- I would be a bird of prey, like a hawk or something with really good eyesight.
September 30 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, I just brought TNET back to its beginning, namely Class of 2014 theses. Do I win TNET?
September 30 at 8:35pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe You may have a gold star.
September 30 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe but only tNET wins tNET
September 30 at 8:36pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I'll take what I can get.
September 30 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and through tNET, the world
September 30 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Sean - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkxB15nXRvM
Chris Rock - What you want, a cookie?!
YOUTUBE.COM
September 30 at 8:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And I would absolutely love to read it!
September 30 at 8:37pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I'd take a cookie too.
September 30 at 8:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did you just graduate with Mariclare ? She likes to write about the cosmos too.
September 30 at 8:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm perplexed by Article 4, actually. It's more horrible than I expect Thomas to be usually.
September 30 at 8:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well, yes and no. Mrs. Cohoe
St. Thomas's response is fascinating, if you think about it. His first point, the way in which the man's sin is great, is manifestly true with respect to Adam's headship (as even Eve takes her origin from him- which raises another difficulty with the man was formed from hominid stock idea...I even heard once they were a bizarre form of identical twins, that the embryo split, but somehow she became a woman instead? )
The way the sins are equal is manifestly true as well
September 30 at 8:39pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Haha, yep, we were in the same class. I think "Cosmos" or some variation of it is probably the most common word in our class's thesis titles. We all kind of had the problem of trying to write about life, the universe, and everything in one short paper.
September 30 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict What do you say, gang? TNET 100,000? Forward! Into the jaws of death!
September 30 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sean, that is a universal TAC thesis problem
September 30 at 8:41pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Heh heh heh, true story.
September 30 at 8:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Not mine! "Like Patience on a Monument: Absolute Love in William Shakespeare's Twelfth Night."
September 30 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I was up to date 7 hours ago and I just read the 3 hour old stuff. Did we ever decide if 9 Eves was ok or not? And 9 Adams for that matter?
September 30 at 8:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There is hot dispute about that, with one side saying very vague stuff, and the other saying definitely not ok.
September 30 at 8:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Can it please be 7, not 9? "Seven Eves for Seven Adams"
September 30 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau OK then 7.
September 30 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, I don't understand Thomas's first point.
September 30 at 8:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict TNET 100,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 30 at 8:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Samantha you would dig my thesis. The women of Twelfth Night are wonderful.
September 30 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The three ways he says woman's sin was greater. We can agree on the 2nd way, right? Namely, she did lead Adam into sin. The first way is fascinating to me, because of what it implies about the tree and God's command of it. It is not clear to me how Adam didn't believe it, yet still wanted to be like to God through his own power.
The third way is the perplexing one, but I suppose the gist of it, while to love any creature before God is a sin, Eve, as it were loved herself before God, but Adam, in consenting, was motivated by love of another? Yet we ought to love our proper good more than the proper good of another. Only God, Christ in His humanity and perhaps Mary inasmuch as she is mediatrix ought to be loved more than one's own good (within the same order).
I suppose one could argue that 1. If Adam wasn't duped, his sin was worse in that respect 2. Because of his headship, it belonged all the more for him to lead toward God rather than follow toward sin. 3. In being motivated to sin out of a "friendly will" he was in some sense even more attached to creatures. And thus turn Aquinas' arguments on their head
September 30 at 8:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Adam was the head of humanity, from whom even Eve took her origin, and hence was more perfect than Eve. Note Aquinas speaks of their condition, not the perfection of their sex or nature. Indeed, God's command in given to Adam, Eve is derived from Adam... Adam is in some ways given more by God, and thus sins more grieviously
September 30 at 8:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It seems to me, even if we accept the 3 ways the women sins more grievously as true. They are aggravating factors of her sin, yes. But Adam's sin was still worse in the primary way. I think here Aquinas is doing his best not to gainsay what is commonly held here.
September 30 at 8:53pm · Like
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Joel HF What do you make of the sed contra though? Woman plainly gets the worse punishment in the text of Genesis.
September 30 at 8:57pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- I love 12th Night.
September 30 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel-- I don't think that's obvious.
September 30 at 8:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm being distracted from my tNET duties by my editing-a-proposal-for-my-husband duties
September 30 at 8:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Then I don't care what anyone says about you, Samantha, you're good peoples.
September 30 at 9:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Jody Haaf Garneau, have you read JPII's address on this, in which he reaffirms Humani generis?
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm
In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.....
....It is by virtue of his eternal soul that the whole person, including his body, possesses such great dignity. Pius XII underlined the essential point: if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God ("animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides non retimere iubet"). (Humani Generis)
As a result, the theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are therefore unable to serve as the basis for the dignity of the human person.....
With man, we find ourselves facing a different ontological order—an ontological leap, we could say. But in posing such a great ontological discontinuity, are we not breaking up the physical continuity which seems to be the main line of research about evolution in the fields of physics and chemistry? An appreciation for the different methods used in different fields of scholarship allows us to bring together two points of view which at first might seem irreconcilable. The sciences of observation describe and measure, with ever greater precision, the many manifestations of life, and write them down along the time-line. The moment of passage into the spiritual realm is not something that can be observed in this way.
Pope John Paul II 22 October 1996 To Pontifical Academy of Sciences
It is with great pleasure that I send my cordial greetings to you, Mr. President, and to all of you who constitute the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, on the occasion of your plenary assembly. I send my particular best wishes to the new members of the Academy, who come to take part in your work for…
EWTN.COM
September 30 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks, Isak.
September 30 at 9:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Presuming that man's body was a product of evolution, then the question of mitochondrial Eve or Y chromosomal Adam, while interesting, don't necessarily speak anything to the origin of human persons
September 30 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz-- just for a start, what is this supposed greater perfection of condition supposed to consist in?
September 30 at 9:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I thought I already said that? He was the head of all humanity, even Eve takes her origin from him, and in scripture we see God giving Him the commandment in question. He also acts as head.
September 30 at 9:02pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, what does it consist in? How is it manifested? Greater authority?
September 30 at 9:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF, Aquinas conceives as the punishment of women as threefold. Weariness in pregnancy, pain in child-birth, and being subjected to her husband (some many women disadain nowadays but it is there). He explains the subjection as not placing the man as head, for he already was, but in subjecting woman to her husband, by obeying him even when against her own will.
And this is worse punishment
September 30 at 9:08pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Yes, the husband is the head of the wife. Furthermore, if Eve had sinned and not Adam, mankind would not have fallen. But if Adam sinned and not Eve, mankind would have fallen
September 30 at 9:09pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And again, I answered it I though/ God spoke to Adam, he gave Adam His commands, etc. The man was the head of wife, God the head of man. Seems a clear manifestation to me/
September 30 at 9:10pm · Like
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Joel HF Yeah, I agree, scripturally it just seems worse.
September 30 at 9:12pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Though more recent popes have said that it is moral to try to alleviate the effects of the Fall, i.e. anaesthetic in childbirth, etc.
September 30 at 9:15pm · Like
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Joel HF I don't follow his first argument for the woman's sin being greater--though i hazily recall Augustine and other fathers also speaking in a similar way w/r/t Adam's knowledge. Been a while since i read the beginning of Genesis, though.
September 30 at 9:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't understand the dominion of the ruling over as a punishment just for women. Disorder of the relationship between husband and wife is punishment for both.
September 30 at 9:15pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And in marriage, any punishment the wife suffers is also a punishment of the husband, as our beloved Leo Tolstoy pointed out in his diaries.
September 30 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF How Hegelian.
September 30 at 9:16pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe So, yes, I am highly aware of the punishment of pain in pregnancy and childbirth, but so is my husband. And he is certainly suffers more by the figurative sweat of his brow than I do.
September 30 at 9:20pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not this year, of course, since he got that sweet grant, but usually.
September 30 at 9:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And, saying Adam has "headship" is a claim that is intelligible to me. Saying that he had "a more perfect condition" is not.
September 30 at 9:22pm · Like
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Joel HF St. Paul also seems to think that Eve sinned worse in 1 Tim 3. And the husband having to toil by the sweat of his brow is also a punishment for the wife, insofar as he is gone or is tired or just plain can't help as much. Honestly, though, how much is riding on who sinned worse?
September 30 at 9:25pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I think the punishment of pain is bs.
September 30 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The only thing that fell is man's state of grace. The physical world is the same.
September 30 at 9:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Man as humankind not gender
September 30 at 9:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill All the pain exists no matter what it is just part of the fable to say that it is punishment.
September 30 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau So what are the 'certain fixed points' that JPII refers to in that article?
September 30 at 9:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Remember if rationality exists everything else that goes with it exists with or without sanctifying grace.
September 30 at 9:42pm · Like
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Joel HF So, Brian leiter is drawing what seems like well deserved heat
September 30 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Samantha, would it be possible that two men committed the same sin, but because of circumstance, fault was mitigated in one of them?
September 30 at 9:45pm · Like
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Joel HF https://sites.google.com/site/septemberstatement/
Statement
Professor Jenkins has been targeted by Professor Brian Leiter (University of Chicago) with derogatory and intimidating remarks privately by email in July, and recently with further derogatory remarks publicly on Twitter.
SITES.GOOGLE.COM
September 30 at 9:45pm · Like
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Joel HF http://legalinsurrection.com/.../brian-leiter-supporter.../
Brian Leiter, supporter of Steven Salaita, embroiled in his own civility controversy
U. Illinois at Urbana-Champaign may have lucked out...
LEGALINSURRECTION.COM
September 30 at 9:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill BBq night!
September 30 at 9:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff, could you ship some BBQ to D.C.?
September 30 at 10:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Anyone here planning to attend the ACPA conference coming up in D.C.?
September 30 at 10:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia winding...down....
September 30 at 10:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Or have spice [mouse : mice :: ] attending?)
September 30 at 10:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the heat is definitely well-deserved.Best case scenario, Leiter is done, but the Philosophical Gourmet Report continues under better leadership.
September 30 at 10:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, sure. I wasn't trying to deny that blame can be mitigated by circumstances.
September 30 at 10:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've got about five minutes. Come at me, bros.
September 30 at 10:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Woman shouldn't wear pants. Discuss.
September 30 at 10:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Heeheehee
September 30 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I only wear pants and short skirts. Which is worse?
September 30 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Obviously pants, since short skirts are only more evil by degree. Pants, being a difference in kind from skirts of any length, are PERVERSIONS of feminine nature.
September 30 at 10:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The new Inherent Vice trailer looks cool, but PT Anderson sucks. Discuss.
September 30 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ9FUgJCZkc...
Epirotiko Mirologi
-uploaded in HD at http://www.TunesToTube.com
YOUTUBE.COM
September 30 at 10:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What if the pants have flowers on them?
September 30 at 10:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict MEN SHOULD ONLY WEAR KILTS
September 30 at 10:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Oh well then that would be okay
September 30 at 10:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wait you really don't like PTA?
September 30 at 10:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahaha no. I recognize the excellence of certain aspects of his artistry
September 30 at 10:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe still think I'm good peoples?
September 30 at 10:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yep Shakespeare provides the strongest ties
September 30 at 10:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe 12th Night is my favorite of the Comedies.
September 30 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Though Much Ado is close
September 30 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I notice you didn't say Taming of the Shrew
September 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe CAUSE IT ISN'T FUNNY
September 30 at 10:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe kidding, kidding
September 30 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe but it's not. Peace out, tNET. Caleb's cutting me off.
September 30 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I just got to play Malvolio this past April
September 30 at 10:40pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict May I recommend that Caleb attend a quick meeting at the TNET Addict Spouses' Support Group? Down the hall to the left!
September 30 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joshua Kenz writes: "Those who claim science shows pologenism are idiots, who neither know the science nor the claims of theology."
Perhaps then you could enlighten me as to how to correctly interpret the data that these "idiots" believe to show polygenism? Thank you in advance.
September 30 at 10:54pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson These beers are about to be had on my patio by Joshua Kenz and myself.
Maybe I should ask him this question.
September 30 at 11:41pm · Unlike · 4
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Isak Benedict Wow TNETers hanging out in real life - I think my mind never really registered that likelihood.
September 30 at 11:50pm · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple That's a nice lookin' patio.
September 30 at 11:58pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Rented - a good deal we are lucky to get. But, yes, behind me is a stone bar with an outdoor fridge.
And all tNETers have an open invite.
October 1 at 12:00am · Unlike · 6
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Jeff Neill Matthew J. Peterson, let josh know that I think he's Long winded, but I miss disagreeing with him. (Unblock me please. I'm only a jerk on the surface)
October 1 at 12:03am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict To Peterson's house!
October 1 at 12:03am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Edward Langley, where are you in DC? I have spent more then my fair share there and I'm in regular contact with good people in the area.
October 1 at 12:05am · Like
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Edward Langley Jeff Neill, Hyattsville (basically 3 miles from CUA/National Basilica)
October 1 at 12:05am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill: are you all in the OC? Why haven't we all got together?!?
October 1 at 12:06am · Like
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Edward Langley *y'all
October 1 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill You could have let me know this Matthew J. Peterson, when I lived local but now I'm in Seattle.
October 1 at 12:06am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm a Texan by adoption but not by birth.
October 1 at 12:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill: who are you blocked by?
October 1 at 12:07am · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz
October 1 at 12:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think in the coming years we must have a tNET conference.
October 1 at 12:08am · Unlike · 5
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Jeff Neill I lived in temple city for quite a while and was a daily regular on the foothill cities blog, then I bought a mansion in riverside. Now I'm in Seattle. (Freshly over)
October 1 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Alcohol will be a factor
October 1 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm often in CA in the summers.
October 1 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Lol yeah Kenz blocked me after I called him names.
October 1 at 12:08am · Like
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Edward Langley . . . and I generally have made it to the various TAC alumni dinners.
October 1 at 12:09am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I *used* to be in DC about every two months.
October 1 at 12:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict I am picturing a TNET party when we approach 100,000. Outdoors, with beer. There will be horseshoes, much smoking, and laughter and back-slapping. And at the end when the fireworks go off, as Matthew J. Peterson posts the 100,000th comment, Scott and Isak hug and swear eternal friendship tearfully.
Fade out.
October 1 at 12:10am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Damn. We missed you, Jeff Neill, but we've been back and forth.
The FC blog will rise again. But this time...heh.
October 1 at 12:10am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/t8RCQDDsMpU
Movie Quotes: "If You strike me down"(Star Wars IV)
Star wars quote
YOUTUBE.COM
October 1 at 12:10am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley - yes. Let me know.
October 1 at 12:10am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And Brian Kemple: you need to get out here. As a prof or...TUTOR.
October 1 at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Fc blog had the pulse. Best "local political news of "east la"
October 1 at 12:12am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott is the sine qua non of tNET. And that, Bond family, is a political fact worth considering.
October 1 at 12:12am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, I think I met one of your in-laws at a party out here: a Gisla? I think he was studying psychology.
October 1 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Get your head back up in the clouds with us spacemen, Matthew!
October 1 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Lol
October 1 at 12:13am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill When do you start a new political party?
October 1 at 12:15am · Like
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Jeff Neill I understand the benefit of a two party system, But money matters and the form changes based on the function and the name no longer applies.e
October 1 at 12:17am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Vote Spaceman 2016
October 1 at 12:17am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill What is the plank?
October 1 at 12:17am · Like
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Jeff Neill How do you define a common good party and In modern society, what constitutes the common good?
October 1 at 12:18am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "The rents are too &@#$ high"
October 1 at 12:18am · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill But rent covers the mortgage and is defined by such.
October 1 at 12:19am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Life, liberty and happiness. What should a congressman do to support these?
October 1 at 12:21am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think the congress should pass a law forgiving all mortgage debt.
October 1 at 12:22am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
October 1 at 12:22am · Like
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Edward Langley But they should tell me first, so I can by a mansion before that happens.
October 1 at 12:22am · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill No
October 1 at 12:22am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley An executive order?
October 1 at 12:23am · Like
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Jeff Neill You have many good ideas that isn't one of them.
October 1 at 12:23am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Seriously, though, I think the whole real estate market needs an overhaul. I don't know exactly what the best way to rein-in inflation and speculation would be, but something like that is necessary.
October 1 at 12:25am · Like
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Edward Langley Although, maybe it'll happen naturally as the baby-boomers move into nursing homes.
October 1 at 12:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill Life is easy. Protect it whenever possible. Only remove it if necessary. (Necessary defined by continual criminal threat or inability to maintain with available resources.)
October 1 at 12:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill Once baby boomers die the market will be drastically different. The laws need to change are on multiple home owners.
October 1 at 12:27am · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill If you are buying a second home you should not be able to get a traditional mortgage on it.
October 1 at 12:28am · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill If it is an investment property it should be taxed heavily. To discourage multiple home ownership.
October 1 at 12:29am · Like
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Edward Langley There probably should be legal controls over the distribution of mortgage payments to interest and principal.
October 1 at 12:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill For most investment property it is owned outright
October 1 at 12:30am · Like
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Jeff Neill Paid in cash.
October 1 at 12:30am · Like
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Jeff Neill How can a potential property owner compete with paying a traditional mortgage when rental prices are always "better"
October 1 at 12:31am · Like
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Jeff Neill Regarding controls of distribution of payment a to I treat and principle, those are naturally created by the lending institutions. In general it is a 20% loan to value. Anything outside requires gov intervention (HUD/FHA).
October 1 at 12:36am · Like
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Jeff Neill I have crazy mistyping due to iphone. Please forgive the autocorrects which make all my typing drunk.
October 1 at 12:36am · Like
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Edward Langley Swype on Android phones makes typing much less problematic.
October 1 at 12:37am · Like
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Edward Langley But I wish there were a decent phone with some sort of real keyboard.
October 1 at 12:38am · Like
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Isak Benedict We need a Day of Jubilee.
October 1 at 12:40am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Wot for?
October 1 at 12:45am · Like
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Edward Langley jubilation
October 1 at 12:46am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict It occurred every 50 years in Leviticus when all debts would be forgiven
October 1 at 12:50am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill We ain't Jewish.
October 1 at 12:50am · Like
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Jeff Neill And I just sold my house, so I don't want to hear anything about forgiven debt. ( totally selfish comment)
October 1 at 12:52am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: you speak of Greg Benedict, who is now a Dr. shrink in Sacramento.
October 1 at 1:03am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Isak Benedict: I think we will have enough $ by them to pay for Sir Elton to come out and sing a special Madisonian version of Rocket Man on my patio.
October 1 at 1:06am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Where is this $ you speak of coming from?
October 1 at 1:08am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No idea. But we don't monetize tNET. No, tNET monetizes us.
October 1 at 1:51am · Like · 4
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Sam Rocha wurd
October 1 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman
October 1 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley just because
October 1 at 2:38am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mr. Bolin, obviously a somewhat bombastic and deliberately confrontational way of phrasing it. The heart of the matter is what John Paul II said in what I quoted (the ontological leap not being discernible within the scientific process...to ask science to answer the origin of humanity qua beings with rational souls is to ask it something outside its competence)
Further, the "science" behind such claims are not without controversy and debate about their implications even within the scientific community. My experience has largely been with those who, not knowing the science itself, take as a premise it has shown polygenism, and present that as a reason to abandon monogenism. And yes, they do end up quite idiotic in doing so.
October 1 at 3:40am · Like
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Pater Edmund "But the Maritainian view of political secularization has not been confirmed by history. Political secularization has been associated not with better understanding of the distinction between spiritual and temporal, but with that distinction's intellectual and political erosion..." https://www.academia.edu/.../Jacques_Maritain_and_the...
True or false?
Jacques Maritain and the problem of Church and State
This lecture, given at Mundelein in October 2013,...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY THOMAS PINK
October 1 at 7:53am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the modern mortgage industry combines two things least loved: usury and crony capitalism.
After the multiple bank bailouts, everyone's debt should have been forgiven.
October 1 at 8:15am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson No, no, Michael Beitia. We regulate financial interests.
http://www.usatoday.com/.../delamaide-goldman.../16483611/
Delamaide: Goldman tapes expose Fed weakness
Secretly-made tape recordings of Fed bank examiners...
USATODAY.COM
October 1 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You don't trust our aristocratic masters?
October 1 at 10:41am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson But. But it is the office of the wise to rule...
October 1 at 10:42am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia first assh*les up against the wall.....
October 1 at 10:56am · Like
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Michael Beitia sed contra:
the demos at work:
http://womenarewatching.org/.../lena-dunham-5-reasons-why...
Lena Dunham: 5 Reasons Why I Vote (and You Should Too)
Finally, an online list that’s useful. It’s not about...
WOMENAREWATCHING.ORG
October 1 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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John Ashman The tyranny of the 51.
October 1 at 11:28am · Like
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John Ashman .
1. Create tNET.
2. ????
3. Profit!
October 1 at 11:28am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 2: monetize tNETtery
October 1 at 11:29am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Asterisks don't make it better, Beitia
October 1 at 11:30am · Like · 3
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John Ashman tNETcoin
October 1 at 11:31am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman tPhone
October 1 at 11:31am · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Why do they keep quoting Jews in the Church? Aren't CathoIics simpIy Christian Jews?
October 1 at 11:34am · Like
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Isak Benedict Wow that Dunham is an obnoxious person
October 1 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Just ignore her. She is simply looking for attention.
October 1 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I mean, pray for her as your fellow human in Christ...
October 1 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Samantha, that was out of deference for all the virginal eyes on tNET.
October 1 at 11:42am · Like
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Michael Beitia Lena Duhnam is the tyranny of faction
October 1 at 11:43am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia James Madison would have watched "Girls"
October 1 at 11:45am · Like · 2
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John Ashman Faction is the opposite of naturaI rights. Faction is "positive rights".
October 1 at 11:45am · Like
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Michael Beitia Alexander Hamilton would have worked for Goldman Sachs.
October 1 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Joel HF One can, with equal plausibility, blame the goldman sachs thing on the "balancing of factions against each other" which dominates DC today in the form of rampant rent seeking. It isn’t because we are “aristocratic” but because we try to play private interests off one another as a substitute for seeking the common good.
Of course, even as cynical as I am, many in Washington continue to seek the common good. But the lobbyists pass the bills.
October 1 at 11:47am · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Alexander Hamilton would have * run * Goldman Sachs.
October 1 at 11:48am · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland Yeah, Beetia, watch your language.
October 1 at 11:48am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia before or after he regulated Goldman Sachs?
October 1 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Catherine, that was a joke at Samantha's expense.
October 1 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Joel HF http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../What-does-being-British...
What does being British mean? Ask the Spanish - Telegraph
The popular image of migration, invasion and massacre...
TELEGRAPH.CO.UK|BY STEPHEN OPPENHEIMER
October 1 at 11:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZQhYu1E5s
The Big Lebowski - Cuss Words
The Dude meets The Stranger for the first time. Another hilaious line of dialogue.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 1 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Joel HF British and Basque unite!
October 1 at 11:50am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Joel's using asterisks too. Whatever is TNET coming to.
October 1 at 11:51am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Emphasis is different than euphamism, yes?
October 1 at 11:52am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland No. Asterisks offend simpliciter.
October 1 at 11:58am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did you guys know there is such a thing as the opposite of a euphemism? It's called a dysphemism. It's when you substitute a more offensive term for one that is not offensive, or less offensive.
October 1 at 11:56am · Unlike · 4
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Jeff Neill
October 1 at 11:57am · Like · 5
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John Ashman Sure, Isak. We caII this "poIitics". The Ianguage of extremes. Which is, as government requires, the exact opposite of the meaning of poIitics.
October 1 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Thanks to politics, even good ideas can sound horrible and simple problems can have unnecessarily complex solution s.
October 1 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman A conservative is someone who wants simpIe, expensive soIutions to compIex probIems.
A IiberaI is someone who wants compIex, even more expensive soIutions to simpIe probIems.
A Iibertarian is the guy saying "WTF!"
October 1 at 12:43pm · Like
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John Ashman *WTF = Why They Freakin'?
October 1 at 12:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No.. You got it wrong. On all three libertarians are against the common good.
October 1 at 1:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Guys guys. Politics is the art the care of which is men's souls.
October 1 at 1:05pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Have you ever played the board game called Monopoly?
October 1 at 1:11pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It starts with the even distribution of funds followed by rotating chance and accidental opportunities, but as luck falls to some and not others monopolies are formed. It starts with a rural community and ends in the projects. Once you start landing on hotels you are not able to change your fortune.
October 1 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill This is why libertarians destroy communities.
October 1 at 1:15pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Once the gas and electric are owned by the same entity, the price goes up ten fold.
October 1 at 1:19pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You can be a libertarian and oppose monopolies. Probably most of them do.
October 1 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Define "common good".
October 1 at 1:24pm · Like
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John Ashman Iibertarianism is based on the most common good of aII and onIy that truIy common good - naturaI, sentient rights.
October 1 at 1:25pm · Like
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John Ashman Everything beyond that is faction.
October 1 at 1:25pm · Like
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John Ashman AII Iibertarians oppose monopoIies by definition. At worst, we may suffer some monopoIies onIy because we haven't found a better way forward.
October 1 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Almost everyone opposes "monopolies", but that doesn't change the trajectory of an economy according to libertarian principles.
October 1 at 1:28pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ashman AND..Iibertarianism strengthens community by removing reIiance on government. With freedom, one must reIy on your reIationships with other humans, and that onIy strengthens community. With government, you don't even have to see or hear from your neighbors.
October 1 at 1:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Of course, if you have a weak enough government, you lose the ability to effectively oppose big corporations
October 1 at 1:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Thanks for your misunderstanding of Iibertarianism, Geoff.
October 1 at 1:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and thus you lose the ability to oppose monopolies as well
October 1 at 1:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I thihnk I hit it squarely
October 1 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Without government, there are no corporations.
October 1 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill lol
October 1 at 1:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Libertarians are a seemingly fairminded windowdressing for corporate cronyism. It has been tried and shown to lead to corporate cronyism.
October 1 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Government protects oIigopoIy by nature, and in hundreds of ways, zoning, Iicensing, taxation, mandates.
October 1 at 1:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe um, what? Maybe you wouldn't call them corporations, but there's nothing intrinsic to a free market that prevents huge businesses
October 1 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I didn't say that Samantha.
October 1 at 1:30pm · Like
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John Ashman Corporations have government protections.
October 1 at 1:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes, everyone has gov protections.
October 1 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill can you state another super wide generalization
October 1 at 1:31pm · Like
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John Ashman And government charter. And used to be onIy granted for proyects no business aIone or even government couId handIe.
October 1 at 1:31pm · Like
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John Ashman speciaI government protections. Goes without saying, normaIIy.
October 1 at 1:32pm · Like
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Jeff Neill the last two statements are not clear
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not saying our current government does an awesome job preventing abuse by corporations, but your proposed government would be even worse.
October 1 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Protections private companies do not.
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ashman How?
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill which
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ashman By strengthening the roIe of the church?
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Which protections are you thinking of specifically?
October 1 at 1:33pm · Like
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John Ashman By strengthening the roIe of community? Charity? IndividuaI effort?
October 1 at 1:34pm · Like
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John Ashman Investor protection. You can own stock and avoid IiabiIity.
October 1 at 1:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think you're vastly overplaying the degree to which the role of community, charity, and individual effort would be strengthened without government
October 1 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Easy peasy. No need to think.
October 1 at 1:34pm · Like
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John Ashman God is that weak?
October 1 at 1:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, humans are
October 1 at 1:35pm · Like
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John Ashman I think you're underestimating it immenseIy.
October 1 at 1:35pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Investors are investors... they provide up front capital in exchange for future return (not guaranteed)
October 1 at 1:35pm · Like
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John Ashman I've been meeting more neighbors than ever and forming friendships to cover for the faiIure of government right now. We're aII heIping each other. We've been donating to church more than ever. HeIping others more than ever. Air rushes into a void.
October 1 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill by failure of government you made the assumption that government is supposed to provide something
October 1 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Here's a fun idea that a libertarian proposed to my husband recently-- minimum guaranteed income for all to replace all welfare programs.
October 1 at 1:37pm · Like
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John Ashman If you invest in a private business, you can be sued more easiIy. On the good side, corporations aIIow workers and non miIIionaires to own businesses without forming one.
October 1 at 1:37pm · Like
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John Ashman And you make the assumption I want zero govrernment I guess.
October 1 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Are you saying that's all that keeps mega-corporations going??
October 1 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Take away those protections, I'm sure they'd do fine.
October 1 at 1:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill which protections?
October 1 at 1:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Businesses fail
October 1 at 1:38pm · Like
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John Ashman STOP. That's not a Iibertarian. That is an ahoIe. That is a sociaIist idea. We have those battIes. we're destroying these buttheads.
October 1 at 1:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the protections Ashman was talking about-- liability stuff
October 1 at 1:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it's a great idea
October 1 at 1:39pm · Like
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John Ashman It's not. It's worse than what we have.
October 1 at 1:39pm · Like
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John Ashman Or wiII be the moment a poIiticians gets his hands on it.
October 1 at 1:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm very familiar with liability in corporations... that's why I know that there are very few exemptions to liability
October 1 at 1:39pm · Like
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John Ashman In any case, NOT a Iibertarian.
October 1 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Calls himself a "bleeding heart libertarian"
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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John Ashman The business is IiabIe, not the owners.
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm confused. Is ashman against tort liability?
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman Who? I probabIy know him.
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The owners lose their investment
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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John Ashman No.
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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John Ashman I'm against speciaI protections.
October 1 at 1:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill most definately yes. When a stock goes down in value, the stock holder lost investment
October 1 at 1:41pm · Like
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Joel HF Ah, "special protections." Right. Well, find me a free economy without them, and we can talk.
October 1 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe http://www.kevinvallier.com/
Kevin Vallier | Political Philosophy and Ethics at Bowling Green
Welcome I am an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at...
KEVINVALLIER.COM
October 1 at 1:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^this guy
October 1 at 1:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The special protections are called "indemnifications"... can you name a business or product that is indemnified against liability?
October 1 at 1:42pm · Like
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Joel HF Here's a hint, look to the guilded age. Big business was doing just fine, but workers were getting screwed.
October 1 at 1:44pm · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb said, "Hey, I met an intelligent libertarian at the conference"
October 1 at 1:42pm · Like
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Joel HF For anyone over 18 years old, that's a contradiction in terms.
October 1 at 1:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And I registered my skepticism, in similar terms to Joel's
October 1 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And Caleb said, "No, really." and told me some of his ideas and he sounded all right.
October 1 at 1:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe like the minimum guaranteed income one, as a way to replace welfare programs
October 1 at 1:44pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm very interested in this Kevin Vallier fellow, though I doubt I'll agree much with him
October 1 at 1:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.newyorker.com/.../l-p-d-libertarian-police...
L.P.D.: Libertarian Police Department - The New Yorker
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in...
NEWYORKER.COM
October 1 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Nobody? can nobody name an indemnified product/business?
October 1 at 1:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Minimum guaranteed income is libertarian?
October 1 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope
October 1 at 1:46pm · Like
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John Ashman The BIG peopIe are aImost AII professors who don't know anything about the reaI word and gIom onto sociaIist poIicy Iike moths to a fIame.
October 1 at 1:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ha, I knew you didn't know him.
October 1 at 1:46pm · Like
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Joel HF "BIG people?"
October 1 at 1:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If you aren't indemnified, you aren't protected. You are liable for the resuls of your product or service and your business is at risk accordingly. Limited Liability Corporations are designed for small businesses to keep the liability of the business separate from the personal assets of the proprietor
October 1 at 1:47pm · Like
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John Ashman basic income guarantee
October 1 at 1:47pm · Like
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John Ashman I argue with these peopIe at their website and other areas. I don't know if he goes by that name. I've argued with the biggest peopIe proposing it, he's probabIy a repeater.
October 1 at 1:48pm · Like
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Joel HF I was about to ask for Ashman to clarify what it is he is looking for and then I thought, why bother.
October 1 at 1:49pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Matt ZwoIinsky, Steve Horwitz, he's no doubt in their circIe.
October 1 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia FREEEEEDOM!!!
October 1 at 1:49pm · Like
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John Ashman "for what I am Iooking?"
October 1 at 1:49pm · Like
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John Ashman NaturaI rights. Nothing more.
October 1 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia That derive from....
October 1 at 1:50pm · Like
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John Ashman Sentience.
October 1 at 1:50pm · Like
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Joel HF If Caleb had met *him* at the conference he would have said "I met a very dim libertarian with delusions of grandeur" and Samantha would have said "sounds about right."
October 1 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman They exist with or without God.
October 1 at 1:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Sentience gets to natural rights...... oh... I get it! The right to think. And apparently not well...
October 1 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill But what stops anyone from infringing your natural rights?
October 1 at 1:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sentience!
October 1 at 1:52pm · Like
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John Ashman A gun can do it.
October 1 at 1:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia a sentient gun! Like in transformers!
October 1 at 1:52pm · Like
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John Ashman A court system. As tribes use.
October 1 at 1:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Wasn't it Bentham who said "Natural rights are nonsense on stilts?" Tell me what a natural right is and what it entails, please.
October 1 at 1:53pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF I agree, guns are excellent for violations of rights.
October 1 at 1:52pm · Like
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John Ashman A private mediation. Private poIice. There are options, government can be a Iimited one.
October 1 at 1:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill lol
October 1 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill so now that I have my private army..... how do you stop me from infringing your rights
October 1 at 1:53pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman Government is a monopoIy.
October 1 at 1:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill now that I have my private army.... how do you stop me?
October 1 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Faction!
October 1 at 1:54pm · Like
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Joel HF Only the weak minded rely on "police" or "mediation." The true hero knows what he wants and takes it. It is Ayn Rand parody hour, isn't it? That's what we're doing, right?
October 1 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I stop you with Transformers
October 1 at 1:54pm · Like
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John Ashman No one is saying we're at that point where a governmentIess society is viabIe. But it ought to be a goaI.
October 1 at 1:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I only have Go-bots....
October 1 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ashman They wouId no doubt exist by now in a free society!
October 1 at 1:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that is why you fail, Jeffie
October 1 at 1:55pm · Like
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John Ashman It's fun watching Christians rationaIize the naturaI enemy of the church.
October 1 at 1:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I have freedom as my libertarian shield!!!!
October 1 at 1:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Transformers aren't anti-Church
October 1 at 1:56pm · Like
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John Ashman Easiest, fastest way to reduce crime is conceaIed carry.
October 1 at 1:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia because there is no correlation between having a gun, and shooting someone with it.....
October 1 at 1:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The cartels seem to be rather libertarian... they don't let silly government get in their way... private armies, and private air force
October 1 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Why concealed? That only allows the free-loaders who haven't armed themselves to profit from those who have!
October 1 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman There are a Iot of bad peopIe aIIowed to thrive in a society that protects them.
October 1 at 1:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia herd immunity with concealed carry. Everyone should carry an AK
October 1 at 1:57pm · Like
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John Ashman Netanyahu caIIed the Human Rights CounciI the "Terrorist Rights CounciI" It was pretty funny except it's true.
October 1 at 1:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Beitia, I'm going to the store, want to ride shotgun?
October 1 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The problem with libertarians is that they see whatever is other as the enemy.
October 1 at 1:58pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF There are also a lot of idiots who thrive in a society that protects them, for which you should be grateful, Mr. Ashman.
October 1 at 1:58pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia lol^
October 1 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Very Christian of you.
October 1 at 1:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Laughter is Christian...
October 1 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Don't use your godlessness as a shield... it doesn't work
October 1 at 1:59pm · Like
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John Ashman Obnoxiousness is not
October 1 at 2:00pm · Like
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John Ashman You have no argument so you resort to ridicuIe instead of debate.
October 1 at 2:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill so do you know of any businesses that are indemnified from accountability?
October 1 at 2:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Human rights bad, natural rights good.
October 1 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman MeanwhiIe, Matthew J. Peterson was outIining the causes we have in common.
October 1 at 2:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson is a jerk
October 1 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman If they are not the same, then they are bad.
October 1 at 2:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Did you get feelings hurt? Why not start by saying what you mean by "natural right."
October 1 at 2:01pm · Like
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John Ashman You have to repeat it three times ina mirror.
October 1 at 2:01pm · Like
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John Ashman You didn't attend the cIass YoeI?
October 1 at 2:02pm · Like
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John Ashman stiIi missing ietters, cut and paste not fast enough.
October 1 at 2:02pm · Like
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John Ashman I assume you now what they are.
October 1 at 2:02pm · Like
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John Ashman Do peopIe have a naturaI right to medicaI care?
October 1 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Ashman, do you know of any indemnified businesses?
October 1 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill A quick google search should find a list
October 1 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ashman PeopIe are
October 1 at 2:03pm · Like
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Joel HF Even if I did, I really would have no idea what *you* mean by the term. And let's not just list examples, let's define the concept, please.
October 1 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ashman AIso they can cIose, regroup, restart with a different charter.
October 1 at 2:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let me just put this out there: rights to not exist.
October 1 at 2:04pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ashman They can remove money to keep it from being taken and then reform.
October 1 at 2:04pm · Like
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John Ashman Then you're not a conservative, nor a Iibertarian.
October 1 at 2:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I repeat: rights do not exist
October 1 at 2:04pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill So you don't know of any truly protected industries?
October 1 at 2:05pm · Like
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John Ashman Ugh. I'd say anything with an inc at the end. we protected the banks with free money.
October 1 at 2:05pm · Like
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John Ashman and free profits.
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like
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Jeff Neill nope
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ashman If rights don't exist, God certainIy doesn't.
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia wrong
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill You can sue a corporation for any number of reasons
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What can you not sue?
October 1 at 2:06pm · Like
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Joel HF Don't you know there is no such thing as "free profits"? Weak-minded man! The bankers just saw what they wanted and took it. You complain because you are inferior.
October 1 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman But not the investors. They can shift the money, cIaim banruptcy, pick over their own bones and restart.
October 1 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF John Ashman--is your big complaint that corporations have limited liability as to their principals?
October 1 at 2:08pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman I am inferior because I can't open a bank as I couId 200 years ago.
October 1 at 2:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The investors money is lost up front. It is already spent. Certain investors are restricted due to insider knowledge, and therefore are not allowed to sell stock.
October 1 at 2:08pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman That they are chartered for reasons pertaining to making the rich, richer, not for actuaI necessity to any Iegitimate goaIs of government
October 1 at 2:09pm · Like
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Joel HF In cases where people are using corporations as shells--i.e. shuffling personal assets there, and then shuffling them back as suits arise--courts will actually pierce the corporate veil and hold the principal liable.
October 1 at 2:10pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill If you are an "insider" you are restricted to waiting until 48 hours after the quarterly earnings report before you are allowed to make a transaction. If you are senior stock holder you have to file with the SEC first.
October 1 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Insider trading is a crime based on the advantage given to corporations that peopIe deny.
October 1 at 2:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Wait a minute--I thought Government = BAD. What legitimate ends of government?
October 1 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman That rareIy happens YoeI.
October 1 at 2:10pm · Like
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John Ashman Even their own professed ends.
October 1 at 2:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ashman, so you do not know which industries are indemnified against law suit.
October 1 at 2:11pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm through debating you until you define what you mean by "natural right."
October 1 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I'll give you the answer... Primary Defense Contractors. When their product works... things go boom... and there is much suffering. When it doesn't work... well the result is the same. But you can not sue the defense contractor because the product did or didn't work. This is a government protection over the corporation.
October 1 at 2:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Without indemnification, contractors do not sell product since it would risk the business
October 1 at 2:13pm · Like
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John Ashman Okay, but that's yet another IeveI of protection. So you prove my point.
October 1 at 2:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill sigh...
October 1 at 2:14pm · Like
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John Ashman Why shouId they have protection when others do not?
October 1 at 2:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill This is the reason why indemnification exists... because it proves the point that all other businesses ARE AT RISK.
October 1 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Courts are there to makes these caIIs.
October 1 at 2:15pm · Like
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John Ashman Of course, they aII shouId be.
October 1 at 2:15pm · Like
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John Ashman But again, not their investors!!!
October 1 at 2:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Then nobody would make defense products
October 1 at 2:16pm · Like
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John Ashman FINE!!!!
October 1 at 2:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill lol
October 1 at 2:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You are waiting to be rolled over by another state that doesn't care what you believe
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (state means nation)
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Companies shift money back to investors, make is safe and untouchabIe and so when things go bad, they investors are free to reform the business, virtuaIIy unscathed.
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like
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John Ashman Don't teII me it doesn't happen.
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill it doesn't happen
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like
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Jeff Neill oops
October 1 at 2:17pm · Like
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John Ashman Okay, then you're in deniaI of reaIity and no further discussion is warranted.
October 1 at 2:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Except that I have experience in this reality and it protects you.... whether you want protection or not
October 1 at 2:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You are welcome
October 1 at 2:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Go down to Mexico.... it is far more libertarian there
October 1 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The inability for the government to come to your aide... the private armies that do not care what your rights are.... the private police force that will act for whoever pays highest
October 1 at 2:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You get what you can, you hold it by your own force... or lose it by lack of ability to defend yourself
October 1 at 2:22pm · Like
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John Ashman Samantha, I do now who he is - http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/.../hayek-enemy-of...
Iibertarians have been fighting the good fight against these guys on BHI but they bIock us pretty quickIy for pointing out the inherent issues with their stance.
F. A. Hayek: Enemy of Social Justice and Friend of a Universal Basic Income?
Until recently, I had only read the first two books of...
BLEEDINGHEARTLIBERTARIANS.COM
October 1 at 2:22pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When the government does step in... they are just a bigger entity that takes what it wants when it wants
October 1 at 2:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia because that's what natural rights "naturally" leads to
October 1 at 2:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ashman, what are your thoughts on Mexican politics?
October 1 at 2:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill What is the status in Baja California?
October 1 at 2:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think he's convinced me guys. let's start a private tNET army and declare ourselves sovereign! who's with me!?
October 1 at 2:29pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill does the army have a hierarchy?
October 1 at 2:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill does it have full dental?
October 1 at 2:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia we'll have to find a dentist to join. and it is hierarchical. me>everybody else
October 1 at 2:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I'll respect your natural rights.
October 1 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I'm (mostly) a pacifist. I don't object to non-violent resistance however.
October 1 at 2:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Help Help I'm being repressed!
October 1 at 2:33pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I resist the TNET standing army non-violently.
October 1 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia nononono.... you can still join. we'll have OTHERS do the violence for us
October 1 at 2:34pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No, I will just be TNET's conscientious objector.
October 1 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but how else will our natural rights be protected unless we cabalize?
October 1 at 2:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I take back what I said about libertarians being fairminded. They are zealots and lovers of argument by anecdote like Bastiat.
October 1 at 2:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Are these "others" libertarian or transformers?
October 1 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Annette FitzGerald Listening to this is like an anarchical interpretation of Ansalm's that-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought: "natural rights" are naturally just because I cannot think of a world where natural rights are unjust. I'm getting a headache, or maybe that's my hangover, hang on while I get some scotch...
October 1 at 2:37pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Didn't someone suggest communitarianism a few thousand posts back?
October 1 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Transformers Jeff. I have a hotline to Optimus Prime
October 1 at 2:39pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Libertarian communitarian quasi-democratic anarchism sounds good to me.
October 1 at 2:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Is Ayn Rand libertarian?
October 1 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia didn't you already join my political party 20000 comments ago? You and Joel?
October 1 at 2:39pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No, she's too authoritarian.
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (Actually I've never read anything by her...)
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Objectivist, yes but it seems to be the same as libertarian.
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland ^^Yes, Michael.
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Like libertarian, only more of a jerk
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland But I'm objecting to your standing armies.
October 1 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I blocked Ashland long ago. Otherwise I wouldn't have money enough for the scotch I'd need.
October 1 at 2:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You would enjoy Atlas Shrugged until it takes a death spirAl of "the world is better without compassion" and it gets into a 100 page monologue spelling out the philosophy.
October 1 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^Intolerance. (@Ruplinger)
October 1 at 2:42pm · Edited · Like
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Annette FitzGerald How about a more practical application of personal freedom: rather than standing armies, lets bring back dueling...
October 1 at 2:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it's telling that the "love" scene in the "Fountainhead" is a rape scene....
October 1 at 2:42pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland 'No compassion' is certainly not libertarianism. You don't become inhuman just because you're libertarian.
October 1 at 2:43pm · Edited · Like
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Elliot Milco How about...
Gandhi
October 1 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill But I have two friends and you are alone.
October 1 at 2:43pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think a basic tenet of libertarianism is do no harm (most extreme scenario -- don't murder).
October 1 at 2:43pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Or maybe that's just part of being human.
October 1 at 2:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If you are after your own interests first and foremost. Then compassion is not required
October 1 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger conscientious objectors vs. standing army. Whom should I join?
October 1 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Who says that's what libertarianism means? Do no harm also means that you can't let your neighbor die from neglect either.
October 1 at 2:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe http://www.nytimes.com/.../the-revelations-of-marilynne...
The Revelations of Marilynne Robinson
In her fourth novel, “Lila,” the author returns to the mythical town of Gilead — and her exploration of the sacredness...
NYTIMES.COM|BY WYATT MASON
October 1 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^This is very exciting!!
October 1 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, did you see this profile?
October 1 at 2:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill do no harm and do nothing are close.
October 1 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Do no harm is also a tenet of the medical profession. That doesn't mean they don't bother healing. Human action is a given.
October 1 at 2:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes, but inaction is easier.
October 1 at 2:48pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Do as much as possible and do not stop helping under penalty of law.
October 1 at 2:49pm · Like
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John Ruplinger There's a great little piece by Belloc on usury. He argues by anecdote like Bastiat and shows that they are cads. Too bad I can't do links.
October 1 at 2:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Once a qualified medical professional starts cpr they are not allowed to stop until relieved by higher rank.
October 1 at 2:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland "Do as much as possible and do not stop helping under penalty of law." What does this mean?
October 1 at 2:51pm · Like
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Edward Langley government : society :: form : matter.
October 1 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Even if the body is dead, cpr must continue.
October 1 at 2:52pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland yes, but the kind of government depends on the society.
October 1 at 2:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If the person applying aid stops they are liable.
October 1 at 2:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley Actually, government : society :: form : being having that form.
October 1 at 2:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The best libertarians are compassionate despite being libertarian but I think that is the exception. It's about making money and that is their idol.
October 1 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (i.e. government is the principle which organizes the society).
October 1 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley . . . and by which one society differs essentially from another.
October 1 at 2:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley government : "the people" :: form : matter.
October 1 at 2:55pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Humans are first. They are born into societies, and at some point they must decide how they structure the society. The family is a natural society that exists from the necessity of humans to come together to make new humans.
October 1 at 2:56pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Right Ruplinger, once you start playing Monopoly it is all fun and games until you can't make it around the board.
October 1 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Both the family and the political societies are natural, Catherine Ryland
October 1 at 2:56pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Then it is up to particular non-familial societies to decide how they are structured.
October 1 at 2:57pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Correct.
October 1 at 2:57pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland That we have political societies is natural.
October 1 at 2:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, political society is in some way _more_ natural because it is ordered to the perfection of the adult man rather than a society ordered to the completion of a dependent.
October 1 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Just like it is natural for humans to build shelters/dwellings. What kind of dwelling we build depends on the materials/area/suitability.
October 1 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley i.e. political society follows on man as perfect; family follows on man as dependent.
October 1 at 2:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley I can't tell if you're objecting, Catherine Ryland, or not.
October 1 at 2:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland More natural in the sense that it is more according to human nature?
October 1 at 2:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But societies exist in relation to each other and not just the component parts
October 1 at 2:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yes, and also as ordered to the good of that nature in its perfection.
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- Ayn Rand always played dumb about that rape scene in interviews. "It wasn't rape even though she fought him and never consented in any way, because she wanted it and he knew it."
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Which actually makes it worse, I think
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley For example, it seems to me that in heaven there will be government but not family.
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley "neither married nor given in marriage" and all that . . .
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That is an evil game. One or more of the kids cries or nearly does. After time they become heartless money masters or chin up destitutes brooding their revenge.
October 1 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley but there will be a hierarchy ordered to God, which hierarchy is a government.
October 1 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Sure, but Christ said his kingdom is not of this world.
October 1 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland And I think it will be a different kind of hierarchy -- certainly not a struggle for power or domination.
October 1 at 3:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I wasn't arguing that the heavenly government is the temporal government, just that men in a perfect state form a political community.
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Which is what happens when earthly rulers (i.e. not God) try to order people to their own ends of what is good.
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But Powers and Dominions have structure
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley the "struggle for power or domination" is accidental even to temporal government.
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Yes, I agree with your last comment.
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill both of which are above arch angel
October 1 at 3:03pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland haha.
October 1 at 3:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley two comments above: replace "men" with "intellectual beings", since the heavenly government would include God and the angels.
October 1 at 3:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia government: "people" :: blind : stupid
October 1 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland (Just because I "liked" your comment doesn't mean I agree with it, Biteya)
October 1 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia you need to "libertarian up"
October 1 at 3:06pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Government leads the people as the blind...
October 1 at 3:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley libertarian : political philosophy :: fool : human being
October 1 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland The problem with libertarianism is that every single one of its adherents (or anyone that hears about it) has a different idea of what it is.
October 1 at 3:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia everyone needs to scroll up and have a good laugh at the libertarian police force.
October 1 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland Okay, Edward, are you going to become the next thread Peregrine?
October 1 at 3:07pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Any Flannery O'Connor fans here? (I'm one) Marilynne Robinson has some harsh words for her in the profile I linked to.
October 1 at 3:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger objecting conscientiously.
October 1 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Man, how great would it be if we could get Marilynne Robinson on here to argue with us about Flannery O'Connor?
October 1 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, if you agree with my comments about government being the form of society, you can't be a libertarian: if libertarianism means anything, it means treating government as a necessary evil.
October 1 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I used to like Flannery a lot, (I even named our python after her) but a lot of the short stories ran into each other...
October 1 at 3:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley the form of society is both a good and something necessary simpliciter.
October 1 at 3:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^only if you don't have natural rights!^
October 1 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Marilynne Robinson is super against Libertarians. She said so in the lecture I went to.
October 1 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe “Her prose is beautiful, her imagination appalls me”-- Robinson on O'Connor
October 1 at 3:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley In fact, the duties others owe you is that from which one is said to have a "right": and you only have a right so long as some one owes you a duty.
October 1 at 3:10pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe “There’s a lot of writing about religion with a cold eye, but virtually none with a loving heart”
October 1 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia thank you Edward, that's my point
October 1 at 3:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^that part's true, right?
October 1 at 3:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET is the definition of cold eye /no heart
October 1 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill tnet owes me the duty of entertainment
October 1 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe my cold eye is for tNET and my loving heart for my family.
October 1 at 3:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia are you not entertained?
October 1 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like to imagine we're all EXACTLY the same in "the other world" as the real life of tNET
October 1 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I imagine that you are quiet and reserved and do not let your opinions be known by others
October 1 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland Because of the fall, on earth you are always going to need some kind of system for bringing justice about. The question is, what kind of system, and how much should the system be allowed to require or prevent human action.
October 1 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but you actually know me...
October 1 at 3:14pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe haha, is Jeff right, Michael?
October 1 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia take a wild guess
October 1 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Am I ever wrong?
October 1 at 3:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I may be obtuse , but not wrong
October 1 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have to say, actually, the 06ers on tNET are pretty true to their real life selves.
October 1 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 2
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Catherine Ryland
October 1 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oof. I'm glad I was gone by then....
October 1 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland hey.
October 1 at 3:16pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland we are too.
October 1 at 3:17pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland (just kidding)
October 1 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you shouldn't be
October 1 at 3:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the way they seem to have clamped down I probably wouldn't have made it to November freshman year.
October 1 at 3:17pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I still think we should have a TNET reunion -- or rather 'union' since many of us have never met.
October 1 at 3:18pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill I threw the best dorm parties
October 1 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, all your favorite tNETers are 06ers
October 1 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson and Isak Benedict were already discussing that
October 1 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Clearly we had the best class.
October 1 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I threw the best TAC parties of all time.
October 1 at 3:18pm · Like
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Jeff Neill By '06 my parties would be not allowed,
October 1 at 3:19pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I never partied at TAC. (half kidding. actually not really)
October 1 at 3:20pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Except at my parties, right Catherine?
October 1 at 3:21pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Yes!
October 1 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland For general edification: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/.../do-you-wear-pants-t-s.../
» “Do you wear pants!”: T. S. Eliot’s first magazine Houghton Library Blog
T. S. Eliot’s first magazine was published in an extremely...
BLOGS.LAW.HARVARD.EDU
October 1 at 3:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my first TAC party was in LA with a stabbing and a police helicopter
October 1 at 3:22pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Goodness gracious.
October 1 at 3:22pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When did the alcohol ban take effect?
October 1 at 3:22pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Someone had a heart attack and died at one of the graduation parties for our class.
October 1 at 3:23pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I want to hear this story, Michael.
October 1 at 3:23pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Alcohol ban (for under 21) = halfway through our blighted career. Stupid California laws.
October 1 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mine sound better. They were at a fabulous beach house where the free booze overflowed.
October 1 at 3:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill but I had sanctioned alcohol in the dorm parties...
October 1 at 3:24pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland We did too.
October 1 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and sometimes Catherine Joliat Feil made us fancy food.
October 1 at 3:24pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 1996, Halloween, I can vaguely remember blood from the stabbing victim listlessly drifting in the pool
October 1 at 3:24pm · Like
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John Ashman Iibertarianism is often seen as in contradiction to reIigion because it heId that peopIe are free and not part of God's pIan. But modern Iibertarianism hoIds that peopIe are free and not part of government's pIan, but are certainIy free to be reIigious and wiIIfuIIy engage in God's pIan as Iong as it does not affect the rights of others to choose other courses.
October 1 at 3:24pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Eww, no wonder you were so troubled.
October 1 at 3:25pm · Like
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John Ashman In fact, a Iibertarian society wouId be substantiaIIy more friendIy to the Church.
October 1 at 3:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine, I think you forgot to use present tense there.
October 1 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Well, we automatically participate in God's plan willfully or not. (Actually Samantha that was a willful decision...)
October 1 at 3:27pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill what is the role of the governemtn?
October 1 at 3:26pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland What kind of government?
October 1 at 3:26pm · Like
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John Ashman The difference is that we don't beIieve in being forced into it by men who ciaim to understand God's wiII better.
October 1 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I don't do gotcha arguments Geoff. When you're ready to have an actuaI discussion, aIter your strategy.
October 1 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If a government has dominion over a land, where do you go if you do not wish to participate?
October 1 at 3:27pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe Aren't you the tiniest bit afraid that this new MR novel will be over-mining this particular storyline? (To put it clumsily.)
October 1 at 3:28pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald Any experiment in based solely on generous cooperation between members of society, be it absent government (libertarian) or government imposed (socialist) requires an infallible concept of honor and virtue embedded in a man's soul.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill John, I'm only asking simple questions... you seem to think everything is a trap... it isn't, I'm not that clever.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I think the internet is the best example of a free society.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland TNET is the perfect society.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, I am the tiniest bit afraid of that, Catherine.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Unlike · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil i think part of the reason that Gilead succeeds is that she doesn't color in all the outlines.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But just the tiniest bit. I have great faith in Marilynne.
October 1 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What do you mean? Of the relationship between John Ames and Lila?
October 1 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ashman That's why the Church wouId have a robust part of any Iibertarian society, if it can contain itseIf from trying to become a buIIy or wieId more mundane types of force.
October 1 at 3:30pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Well, in particular I was thinking that she hints about Lila's background but doesn't actually say all that much.
October 1 at 3:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill By force here, you mean moral guidance?
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil My fear is that if she spells it all out and it's not all that great of a book, it will change how I see "Gilead".
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill or is this your "weapon" force of the church?
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Sometimes that happens with sequels.
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland For example, anyone can talk about what they want at the same time (until Mr. Peterson shuts it down...)
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Catherine, I had already seen much worse.
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe She hasn't written a book that was "not that great" yet
October 1 at 3:31pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Well, I think "Gilead" is a better book than "Home," although I like both.
October 1 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland but then they can go begin alternate societies with their own guidelines (re: socraticum)
October 1 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe mm, I don't think I agree
October 1 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But I think Lila is a character who is worthy of some coloring in.
October 1 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I definitely had the sense of a lot under the surface with her
October 1 at 3:33pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland From the T.S. Eliot journal above: “Do you wear pants! If so wear Never Rip, fine for hobos! Bulldogs cannot tear them.”
October 1 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil It's likely to be very good. But I'm afraid it might not be, that's all.
October 1 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I vouch for Jeff not being that clever
October 1 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Why thank you Beitia, I knew you would support me.
October 1 at 3:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald Catherine, does that place Mr. Peterson in the role of philosopher king?
October 1 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm optimistic.
October 1 at 3:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, it places him in the role of Madison, mitigating all of our faction
October 1 at 3:36pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Ugh. The book isn't even out yet and there's already 51 holds at the library (on the seven copies they've ordered). Well, thanks for reminding me, so I can be hold #52.
October 1 at 3:37pm · Like
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Jeff Neill and minor deity through compassion allowing existence, and able to bring the end of times without warning.
October 1 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You're not going to buy it??
October 1 at 3:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia your socialist crap, Samantha? H*ll no
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^huh?
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Um...I'm cheap and I might not like it?
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry. Still feeling a bit libertarian. I'll recover
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman "These kinds of stories are gaining ground for a reason, and are on the verge of becoming politically actionable for far more people than libertarians and the occasional nod from the mainstream on the left." - Matthew J. Peterson
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil (It *is* a little confusing with all these conversations going on at once. But naptime is apparently over, so I'm bowing out.)
October 1 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe why do you pick on me, Michael? :::weeps:::
October 1 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I'm being summoned to play more Dominion.
October 1 at 3:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill because he plays guitar
October 1 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hey! I apologized! somebody take a screen shot
October 1 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill That is awfully Canadian of you.
October 1 at 3:42pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I must be having a bad influence on you.
October 1 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think it may be time to go home from "work"......
October 1 at 3:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Edward, if government is a natural good, it doesn't then follow that the more government there is, the better.
October 1 at 4:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman The one thing that peopIe truIy have in common, and therefore makes it the onIy truIy common good is the concept of naturaI rights. We aII want the right Iife, to defense, to pursue happiness, to have our privacy, to retain our property and fruits of our Iabor, to have our beIiefs, to speak freeIy, to act freeIy, to assembIe, etc, etc, etc. Once you go beyond this, you end in faction. The Constitution, as weII thought out as it couId possibIy be for the time, caused faction because it aIIowed for additionaI infringements of rights, but passed because it contained [Iong faiIed] protections for others.
Thomas Jefferson was phiIosophicaIIy Iibertarian, as were many others in varying degree. Jesus was as weII, IMO. I never saw anything about force or coercion in his teachings, that seemed to be aII added Iater. So, if you hate Iibertarians, don't forget to hate Jesus.
October 1 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I don't hate libertarians... I just think they are not prepared to run a government. What would Libertarians do with DARPA/IARPA?
October 1 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What would Libertarians do with national highway systems?
October 1 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What would libertarians do with the smithsonian?
October 1 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Or national parks?
October 1 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What would a libertarian CIA do?
October 1 at 4:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman Are you actuaIIy wiIIing to read an answer?
October 1 at 4:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Please don't talk about Jesus, Ashman. You betray your ignorance and make me angry.
October 1 at 4:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes,
October 1 at 4:20pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland It's okay to be angry. Especially on TNET.
October 1 at 4:20pm · Like
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John Ashman The reaI jesus or the imaginary one?
October 1 at 4:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You still haven't provided a decent proof against God's existence
October 1 at 4:23pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman That's not how onus worcs.
October 1 at 4:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill but the truth should be proveable
October 1 at 4:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill no matter what
October 1 at 4:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill so if the truth is non-existence it should be demonstrable.
October 1 at 4:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If that were so rational folk would all assent to the truth
October 1 at 4:25pm · Like
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John Ashman 1. ObviousIy the goaI wouid be to phase out the need for these programs or privatize them.
2. I personaIIy thinc that the NHS shouId be segregated from government with its own constitution it must obey. Some thinc private companies can handIe it. I am not convinced of that.
October 1 at 4:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It would save all of us from this silly philosophy we've all based our beliefs around
October 1 at 4:26pm · Like
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John Ashman There is no scientific proof of God. It is a beIief.
October 1 at 4:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I want a scientific proof against, not for
October 1 at 4:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill something that ends in "therefore God is impossible"
October 1 at 4:27pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It would help.
October 1 at 4:27pm · Like
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John Ashman NationaI parcs, again, some wouId say privatize them, I prefer the idea of spinning them off as an NPS with their own constitution,.
October 1 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ashman The Smithsonian wouId get spin off to be its own non profit organization.
October 1 at 4:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill why non-profit?
October 1 at 4:28pm · Like
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John Ashman There is no such thing as a Iibertarian CIA. Contradiction in terms.
October 1 at 4:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I fear that land when not owned by a government would get sold to the highest bidder
October 1 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What about all the other "3 letter agencies"
October 1 at 4:29pm · Like
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John Ashman CouId be for profit but the probIem is that if profit is invoIved in communaI property, then you have the temptation to misuse. But I wouIdn't be against it out of hand.
October 1 at 4:29pm · Like
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John Ashman If it's not in the Constitution, I'm aIready against it.
October 1 at 4:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Can a constitution be altered?
October 1 at 4:30pm · Like
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John Ashman My point - the constitution of the NPS wouId prevent saIe of property for the most part.
October 1 at 4:30pm · Like
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John Ashman It can be, but t's usuaIIy hard on purpose.
October 1 at 4:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill who has voting rights on those constitutions? Could I pay them off and buy old faithful? I want the Yellowstone lodge as my summer residence
October 1 at 4:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hypothetical: I lack all common morals and I have incalculable riches... I plan on buying what I want. What stops me in the libertarian regime?
October 1 at 4:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I will buy the 51% voting majority and change what I don't like, can a libertarian gov. stop me?
October 1 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Or does libertarianism only work if we all are idealists?
October 1 at 4:35pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If God doesn't exist, then I am not ultimately accountable to anyone, unless I can't buy them.
October 1 at 4:36pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill But MONEY can buy anything. Nobody can't be bought.
October 1 at 4:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I won't even buy people off all at once, I will put them on a payroll and pay them slowly over time.
October 1 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I will profit from their actions which makes the whole system self sustaining
October 1 at 4:38pm · Like
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John Ashman "I lack all common morals and I have incalculable riches... I plan on buying what I want. What stops me in the libertarian regime?"
The price of stuff you want wouId go up to destroy your advantage.
October 1 at 4:39pm · Like
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John Ashman What if you get everything? Can you Iive forever and sustain it?
October 1 at 4:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Who controls the price? I would take them over.
October 1 at 4:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I am a locust. I know I will die one day but I will eat and destroy along my path. I do not care about the result, I will not be here in 200 years. I'm just taking advantage of the libertarians.
October 1 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill ...anyway
October 1 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill you could see this system would fall prey quickly to the most powerful.
October 1 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It would be self destructive
October 1 at 4:42pm · Like
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John Ashman What if in your system, everyone goes on weIfare and no one pays taxes.
October 1 at 4:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No government to stop it
October 1 at 4:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Then, like Atlas Shrugged, they all die
October 1 at 4:43pm · Like
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John Ashman So you think that we've not aIready achieved your worst fears with governmenet?
October 1 at 4:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You participate or else
October 1 at 4:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No, quite the opposite
October 1 at 4:43pm · Like
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Jeff Neill the controls within government stop my theoretical behaivor
October 1 at 4:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill the factions are too hard to control
October 1 at 4:44pm · Like
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John Ashman Samantha, pIease feeI free to taIk about Geesus and aII my errors.
October 1 at 4:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill John, feel free to prove God can not possibly exist
October 1 at 4:44pm · Like
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John Ashman And? What if everyone stops working and goes on weIfare?
October 1 at 4:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Then welfare stops
October 1 at 4:45pm · Like
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John Ashman Again, you don't understand onus.
October 1 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill lol
October 1 at 4:45pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I think I do understand it and you are the decenter that claims minority view. If you had a decent arguement, you could persuade people. Since the truth is what people believe.
October 1 at 4:46pm · Like
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John Ashman So the Sun revoIved around the Earth untiI the 1500s or so?
October 1 at 4:46pm · Like
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John Ashman I'd rather be GaIiIeo than one of the masses.
October 1 at 4:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You aren't Galileo, he offered science and proof
October 1 at 4:47pm · Like
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John Ashman I never said God is impossibIe. OnIy that there is no proof and beIief isn't a good way to run the worId.
October 1 at 4:47pm · Like
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John Ashman You strawman a Iot.
October 1 at 4:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If you did the same people would have reason to agree with you
October 1 at 4:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes... and
October 1 at 4:48pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm sorry you don't have a point
October 1 at 4:48pm · Like
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John Ashman And who was it that Iost that argument? It wouId have been cooI for Geesus to Iet peopIe know the things they didn't understand so they didn't get it wrong for another 1500 years.
October 1 at 4:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Think of it not as a strawman, but as scientific method
October 1 at 4:49pm · Like
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John Ashman Hah. Ok.
October 1 at 4:49pm · Like
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John Ashman You divert in order to avoid having to make an argument at aII.
October 1 at 4:50pm · Like
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John Ashman What is your proof of God? Or that Geesus was divine?
October 1 at 4:50pm · Like
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Jeff Neill That thing that caused everything else, but was not caused itself, I call God.
October 1 at 4:51pm · Like
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John Ashman That omits inteIIigence.
October 1 at 4:51pm · Like
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John Ashman And seIf awareness.
October 1 at 4:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Things move. All things that moved are moved by something else. Infinite regression is not possible. Something moved something else but did not itself move. Whatever that unmoved thing was is called God.
October 1 at 4:53pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Therefore, God exists... all the other properties are harder to understand. But the existence can not be denied.
October 1 at 4:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what about Galileo would you rather be?
October 1 at 4:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffie, that's actually not quite how the cosmological argument works...
October 1 at 4:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill fine...
October 1 at 4:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill but good enough for Ashman
October 1 at 4:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, sure.
October 1 at 5:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But for tNET's benefit, an infinite regress of causes is only impossible if you're positing a certain kind of cause
October 1 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Is it seIf aware? How do you know? Did it create man? Or are we the product of a byproduct of entropic processes?
October 1 at 5:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe https://www.academia.edu/.../There_Must_Be_A_First_Why...
There Must Be A First: Why Thomas Aquinas Rejects Infinite, Essentially...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY CALEB COHOE
October 1 at 5:03pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill For the sake of the argument none of that matters.
October 1 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman If there is no matter, there is no time. Time is a description of motion.
October 1 at 5:05pm · Like
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John Ashman You're simpIy redefining God and making into "anything that fits this description". That's not God. God is seIf aware, God is a creator, God intervenes.
October 1 at 5:05pm · Like
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John Ashman God is simiIar to us, onIy grander.
October 1 at 5:06pm · Like
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Joel HF Still no definition of natural right.
October 1 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And I think Flannery had a huge heart.
October 1 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Oh john ashman. You are so confused.
October 1 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Oh and Gilead>Home as a work of art. Home may be more moving, in a certain way.
October 1 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia strictly speaking, organization is never the product of entropic processes, but enthalpic processes.
October 1 at 5:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill And none of that is necessary to get the first necessary result..... That a brig with these properties exist.
October 1 at 5:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know Joel. I think her attitude towards most of her characters is almost contemptuous.
October 1 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia except remove the "almost"
October 1 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, that was cowardly of me. Strike the almost
October 1 at 5:10pm · Like
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Joel HF O'Connor? She usually likes at least one character per story, I think, though that doesn't help them much.
October 1 at 5:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia name one in "the Enduring Chill"
October 1 at 5:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia cause I remember that one best
October 1 at 5:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I prefer Gilead by a hair. But both are magnificent.
October 1 at 5:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Irish Jesuit
October 1 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe She seems genuinely fond of him
October 1 at 5:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't think so.
October 1 at 5:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Though that whole character exists to demonstrate her contempt of the main character
October 1 at 5:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia seems like he's all silly and wrongheaded like the main character.
October 1 at 5:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe OK, I was fond of him.
October 1 at 5:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't think he was silly, just simple. And he got the point much better than what's his name
October 1 at 5:14pm · Like
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John Ashman YoeI, ifyou admit you don't understand naturaI rights, have never read Iocke, don't understand the Constitution, then I'II expIain it, but otherwise I'm not a circus tiger.
October 1 at 5:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Asbury
October 1 at 5:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe more like the bearded lady?
October 1 at 5:15pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia the Jesuit was the priest in NY, I thought...
October 1 at 5:15pm · Like
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Joel HF And she certainly isn't contemptuous of all of them, I don't think, Motes for one. The stranger and the grandma, also.
October 1 at 5:15pm · Like
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John Ashman EquaI and opposite reaction. My theory is that generaIIy, as entropy occurs, there wiII be accidentaI organization. That the entropy frees up the energy to create spontaineous order. OnIy a theory.
October 1 at 5:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe more contempt for the main character more frequently?
October 1 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Samantha's argument = "you're confused". I can't imagine a debate team without her.
October 1 at 5:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "entropy" doesn't "do" anything
October 1 at 5:17pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We've all read Locke (except probably ashman). Doesn't mean we have to posit natural rights as you mean them.
October 1 at 5:17pm · Like
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Joel HF There are two Jesuits in The Enduring Chill, one, the cultured one in NY, the other, the half deaf one, in Georgia or wherever it was.
October 1 at 5:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia thanks, I was speaking of the first, not the second.
October 1 at 5:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, I'm thinking of the priest who comes to confess asbury when he thinks he's dying
October 1 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Iet's go with the common understanding then. I have never heard of any variations on naturaI rights. what are the competing theories?
October 1 at 5:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia right, I see that with the "simple" comment above
October 1 at 5:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I meant the second. He was the Irish onr
October 1 at 5:18pm · Like
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John Ashman I mean, one of Matthew's compatriots asserted that onIy Americans have naturaI rights, but I think maybe he might be wrong.
October 1 at 5:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia John Ashman, I think Joel wants to know what you think, clearly, twitter-style (140 characters or less)
October 1 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I know this is way off the current topic but back to the original parents. Quotes from the CCC: 360 Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity, for "from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth"
October 1 at 5:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe She was totally contemptuous of the grandma to begin with
October 1 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau 375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original "state of holiness and justice".250 This grace of original holiness was "to share in. . .divine life".
October 1 at 5:19pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau 379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God's plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.
October 1 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Entropy is the naturaI tendency to disorder. I can't heIp but think it comes with accidentaI order.
October 1 at 5:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jody, literature for the day, theology at night.
October 1 at 5:20pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ok. Sorry -- I'll return later.
October 1 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Did anyone else realize that the original link of this thread is dead? What does that mean for tNET?
October 1 at 5:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia does anyone need me to send them a copy?
October 1 at 5:22pm · Edited · Like
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Annette FitzGerald Ashman: "God is similar to us, only grander." Sounds like your mistaking us for Greeks. And in your theory of entropy it sounds like there would be a lot of bouncing heads for every whole and complete body. Do you really reject the necessity of an unmoved-mover?
October 1 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The whole point of the story was that it took a gun pointed to her head for grama not to be contemptible.
October 1 at 5:22pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman NaturaI rights, shortened - That which man has naturaIIy done, which doesn't directIy harm or coerce others.
October 1 at 5:22pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia entropy isn't a natural tendency to "disorder".
October 1 at 5:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ????
October 1 at 5:22pm · Like
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John Ashman And now cue the diversion to argue over the defintion to distract from the argument.
October 1 at 5:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You think that's vwhat Locke thought??
October 1 at 5:23pm · Like
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John Ashman Define it as you wish.
October 1 at 5:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia define what?
October 1 at 5:23pm · Like
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John Ashman And there goes Samantha, right ons sheduIe.
October 1 at 5:23pm · Like
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John Ashman TeII me oh Samantha, what is naturaI rights in one sentence.
October 1 at 5:24pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald " That which man has naturaIIy done, which doesn't harm or coerce others." Evolution absent "survival of the fittest"?
October 1 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not the one positing my entire life philosophy on the idea.
October 1 at 5:24pm · Like
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Joel HF She's fond of Harry Ashfield, in "The River" too.
October 1 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman en.tro.py
ˈentrəpē/Submit
noun
1.
PHYSICS
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
2.
lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme"
October 1 at 5:25pm · Like
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John Ashman This is the probIem with tNET - Pedantry. Argue over defintions rather than ideas. InsuIt rather than debate.
October 1 at 5:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And I certainly wouldn't claim that I know what natural rights are absent from God and his moral order
October 1 at 5:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia do I need to send you the book? Definitions from a dictionary aren't understanding physics. Unless you mean "entropy" in a BR sort of way
October 1 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Iife phiiosophy in one sentence? Damn, I'm good!
October 1 at 5:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Interesting that you think there can be productive discussion when definitions are unclear
October 1 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Well, a character being contemptible doesn't mean O'Connor hated them.
October 1 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman INteresting that you thinoften interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system. there can be a conversation that never gets past fighting over definitions.
October 1 at 5:28pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I object to the way you used it. It doesn't even fit the dictionary definition
October 1 at 5:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Geoff redefined God in a way no dictionary has ever, nor any reIigion has ever, gets a totaI pass.
October 1 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't say she hates them, I said she has contempt for them
October 1 at 5:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Of course, it more cIoseIy matches mine - God = that which we don't understand.
October 1 at 5:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Entropy doesn't "free up" energy, it makes it less usable. that's what "heat death" is
October 1 at 5:29pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Jeff said God is an unmoved mover, redefined nothing
October 1 at 5:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Energy has to go somewhere and do something.
October 1 at 5:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no it doesn't that's the point of thermodynamics. Google "heat death"
October 1 at 5:30pm · Like
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John Ashman I imagine that as the universe ages, there wiII be Iess and Iess Iife formation.
October 1 at 5:30pm · Like
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John Ashman Another Look at Entropy | Understanding Uncertainty
understandinguncertainty.org › Content
Entropy is a tendency for systems to move towards disorder and a quantification of that disorder.
October 1 at 5:31pm · Like
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John Ashman Define Entropy - Universe Today
www.universetoday.com/51887/define-entropy/
Jan 23, 2010 - What is entropy? The most way to explain it is to say that it describes the natural tendency of the universe to fall apart into disorder.
Define Entropy
What is entropy? The most way to explain it is to say that it describes the natural tendency of the universe to fall...
UNIVERSETODAY.COM
October 1 at 5:31pm · Like
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John Ashman The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and ...
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html
14) All processes manifest a tendency toward decay and disintegration, with a net increase in what is called the entropy, or state of randomness or disorder, ...
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability
Does evolution violate the second law of...
TALKORIGINS.ORG
October 1 at 5:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and disorderly molecules are the same and the same temperature with less usable energy.
October 1 at 5:32pm · Like
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John Ashman Disorder(thermodynamics) - definition of Disorder ...
://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Disorder...
2. the tendency of any system to move toward randomness or disorder. ... entropy. [en′trəpē]. Etymology: Gk, en + tropos, a turning. the tendency of a system to ...
Disorder(thermodynamics)
Definition of Disorder(thermodynamics) in the Medical Dictionary by The Free Dictionary
MEDICAL-DICTIONARY.THEFREEDICTIONARY.COM
October 1 at 5:32pm · Like
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John Ashman entropy (enˑ·tr·pē),
n the propensity of matter and energy in a closed system to degrade into an equilibrium of uniform inertness and disorder. The apparent suspension of entropy in animate systems is used to support the philosophy of vitalism.
October 1 at 5:32pm · Like
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John Ashman Want more, I've got pages fuII htat support my use of entropy, Betianstein.
October 1 at 5:33pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia ^less usable energy
Do you read your quotes?
October 1 at 5:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia again ENTROPY DOESN'T "DO" ANYTHING
October 1 at 5:34pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman ON AVERAGE. Within the system there can be fIurries of increased order.
October 1 at 5:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that do not result from entropy
October 1 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Dr Pedantry.
October 1 at 5:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope, I'm Mr. Pedantry
October 1 at 5:35pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman The disordering of the sun Iets Ioose heat and Iight.
October 1 at 5:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's not strictly speaking true
October 1 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman ReaIIy? You seem PiIed High and Deep on the subgect.
October 1 at 5:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia entropy is in a "closed system" the sun can't let loose anything otherwise the system isn't closed
October 1 at 5:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe John Ashman go back to the shadows of whatever sub-reddit from which you emerged.
October 1 at 5:37pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia which means that you don't understand entropy
October 1 at 5:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Beitia-- I think its time to stop troll feeding
October 1 at 5:38pm · Like
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John Ashman Samantha - put forth an argument instead of compiaining.
October 1 at 5:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's "MR PENDANTRY" to you, Samantha.
I hate it when people try and justify stupid beliefs with bad science
October 1 at 5:39pm · Unlike · 7
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John Ashman Except for aII of those definitions that dovetaiI with my use.
October 1 at 5:39pm · Like
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Elliot Milco That's just because you're ANTI-SCIENCE, Beitia, and you're trying to hide behind a bunch of armchair handwaving when REALITY is out there!
October 1 at 5:40pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia no, no they don't *headdesk*
October 1 at 5:39pm · Like
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John Ashman Try to expIain your reIigion with science, good or bad.
October 1 at 5:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So do we all Michael. There's always some excuse for troll feeding
October 1 at 5:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dinner is almost ready, so I'll be free in a minute
October 1 at 5:40pm · Like
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John Ashman Why is MichaeI not a troII?
October 1 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh, I am
October 1 at 5:40pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ashman Definition - "any system".
October 1 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm just more human sounding that some...... (cough cough John Ashman)
October 1 at 5:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What does "try to explain your religion with science" even mean?? See, he's not coherent enough to argue with
October 1 at 5:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia dumbass - "closed system"
October 1 at 5:41pm · Like
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John Ashman I wasn't asserting science when I made my comment, onIy an observation.
October 1 at 5:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you started with "my theory" then cited Newton and Boltzmann, c'mon.....
dinner is ready - I'm out
October 1 at 5:42pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Cats always land on their feet when you drop them. Bread with peanut butter on it always lands on the PB side. Strap the bread on the cat's back. Perpetual motion. QED.
Corollary: Strapping the PB side to a cat's back will cause a black hole.
October 1 at 5:42pm · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma That's all I know about this "science" claptrap.
October 1 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman A theory isn't proof, which is why it's onIy a step.
October 1 at 5:45pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Step 1.. Gravitation
October 1 at 5:46pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Step 2. Guacamole
October 1 at 5:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Step 10: aaahhhh
October 1 at 5:45pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma QEF
October 1 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma We will leave it to the student to fill in the necessary steps. Joseph Andrew Chaney, Morgan I Branch
October 1 at 5:46pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Annette FitzGerald From one of Ashman's links:"(p. 19) There is a universal tendency for all systems to go from order to disorder, as stated in the Second Law, and this tendency can only be arrested and reversed under very special circumstances. We have already seen, in Chapter I, that disorder can never produce order through any kind of random process. There must be present some form of code or program, to direct the ordering process, and this code must contain at least as much "information" as is needed to provide this direction.
Furthermore, there must be present some kind of mechanism for converting the environmental energy into the energy required to produce the higher organization of the system involved. ...
Thus, any system that experiences even a temporary growth in order and complexity must not only be "open" to the sun's energy but must also contain a "program" to direct the growth and a "mechanism" to energize the growth."
Extrapolating that to the universe, how do you get out of the necessity for an unmoved-mover? A scientific theory is worthless in this discussion because there is too much room for speculation. Hence the need for philosophy.
October 1 at 5:47pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz 1. Michael Beitia Friedman was a strong proponent of a negative income tax, as is his son. Basic guaranteed income is a big thing among many libertarians.
Most, though present it as political necesity...the masses will not leave the teats of mother government, so at least let's do it in a better way. I actually agree with Friedman about a negative income tax, but ideally I would get rid of such national structures, preferring more local and subsidiary groups aiding their members and only being aided by a larger organ, like the Feds, when necessary
2. Mrs. Cohoe In the Summa Theologica, Aquinas' argument is "there is a first cause, therefore not an infinite regress" But in the Summa contra gentiles he gives, also, arguments that go no infinite regress therefore a first. E.g., the argument that it would entail an infinite body. (lib 1 cap 13)
3. So this Ashman fellow is a libertarian....hmm I wonder if I ran into him before...anyhow glad I haven't seen a single post of his this whole thread
October 1 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia How'd I get tagged?
October 1 at 5:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Joshua Kenz I'm making dinner, but since you're here you should know I've decided that by "more perfect condition" you and Thomas just meant "greater authority" and that therefore we don't really disagree.
October 1 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- because you yelled at my socialist minimum income suggestion.
October 1 at 5:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but who is guaranteeing the basic income? the gov'ment? constraining the benevolent job creators?
October 1 at 5:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah. I forgot, that was when I went temporarily libertarian.
October 1 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and I only yelled at you because of your totally unrelated "buy it" comment about the book you were also talking about. Never miss an opportunity for a mistaken identity joke. (see 12th night)
October 1 at 6:00pm · Like · 3
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Elliot Milco Hmm
October 1 at 6:01pm · Like
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Elliot Milco http://www.firstthings.com/.../difficult-marriage-in-a...
Difficult Marriage in A Modern Age
In 1567, the famous reformer Pope Pius V condemned various propositions from the writings of a little known...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 1 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yay Jansenism!
October 1 at 6:06pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Samantha, what were you at Yale for?
October 1 at 6:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Div school.
October 1 at 6:11pm · Like
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Elliot Milco When did you graduate?
October 1 at 6:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Didn't. Dropped out to have babies. Would have been 08.
October 1 at 6:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Why? Do we share friends?
October 1 at 6:14pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Well I was thinking we might, but there's no Yale facebook overlap anyway. I have a couple friends from the Div school. Mostly Terry James Archambeault.
October 1 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I don't quite subscribe to "never". CouId actuaIIy mean never, or "not that we have understood thus far"
October 1 at 6:17pm · Like
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John Ashman MichaeI convenientIy onIy uses any definition that suits his agenda and discards aII others as immateriaI and unsupported.
October 1 at 6:19pm · Like · 1
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Innocent Smith Why is there something rather than nothing?
October 1 at 6:41pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I worship the sun. But I pray to Joe Pesci.
October 1 at 6:48pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia The basic question of metaphysics.....
October 1 at 7:18pm · Like
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John Ashman God is IiteraIIy "fiII in the bIank".
October 1 at 7:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's a Heidegger reference. sorry you missed it
October 1 at 7:20pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman The big difference is.....now we know what we don't know.
October 1 at 7:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia apparently you don't. Entropy, scientifically, requires a closed system
October 1 at 7:20pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Sorry, michaeI, did you imagine I was repIying to you?
October 1 at 7:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict This was a cool read: http://www.amazon.com/Why.../dp/0871403595/ref=sr_1_1...
Why Does the World Exist?: An Existential Detective Story
The Washington Post Notable Non-Fiction of 2013 “I can...
AMAZON.COM
October 1 at 7:20pm · Like
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John Ashman It is cIosed for the purposes of the universe.
October 1 at 7:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Sorry, John, I didn't think you capable
October 1 at 7:21pm · Like
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John Ashman PhiIosophy strives to gustify itseIf.
October 1 at 7:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia taste itself?
October 1 at 7:23pm · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict I really want to meet some of these TNETers in person
October 1 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Justify (had to find a J to paste)
October 1 at 7:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia man, I was thinking of Socrates bending over and biting his own.....
October 1 at 7:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, I've met a few of them.
October 1 at 7:24pm · Like
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Innocent Smith Ubik...
October 1 at 7:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- what class are you?
October 1 at 7:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict 2010
October 1 at 7:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict These 06ers all over the place would have left just before I got there
October 1 at 7:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, you were under the dominion of my brother when he was head prefect, then
October 1 at 7:35pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Matthew J. Peterson, why should speech among madmen on TNET be kept free?
October 1 at 7:37pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I don't remember who was head prefect when I was a freshman. I was very well behaved that year. Who is your brother?
October 1 at 7:39pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wait was it Matt? Matt McCall?
October 1 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia don't remember? I could list off all four of them....
October 1 at 7:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia (for me)
October 1 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill For the record, after Ashman attributed the unmoved mover to me.
I'm on my book tour. Tac is going to be on the map!!!
October 1 at 7:51pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF So, more thoughts on O’Connor and whether she has contempt for all her characters. Now, the milieu she writes about * is * largely contemptible, b/c it is a milieu of philistines and cretins. But she doesn’t have contempt for her all her characters nor are they all contemptible. Rather than go through each story, here are three broad “types” of non-contemptible characters:
1. The Innocents. These character aren’t’ contemptible at all, though they often reach heart-wracking ends. But so do the heroes in Greek tragedies. E.g.: The boy in “The River”; the boy, Norton, in “The Lame Shall Enter First”
2. Sinners with open eyes. These are men who realize that the world is
blind and terrible and awful, but have “signed up with evil” as Elliott might say. E.g.: The Misfit and Rufus Johnson, the juvenile delinquent from “The Lame shall Enter First”
3. The third category belongs to those who are seeking salvation. This overlaps largely with innocents, but here it is people who’ve been on the wrong track, realize that the world is wrong, and attempt somehow to reform themselves by taking a stand. The problem for them is generally
that while they know something must be done, they have little idea of what that something is, and their grand actions and plans (tattoos, pouring quicklime in their eyes) generally gang awry. E.g.: Motes
(?) from Wise Blood and Parker from Parker’s Back.
N.B. These categories aren’t entirely static and some characters overlap.
The world and backdrop of O’Connor’s work is bleak and harsh, though often laugh out loud funny as well. I dispute the claim that she holds all her characters in contempt. Some of them, yes, but not all by any means.
October 1 at 7:52pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Jody: If I've learned anything in 27,000 comments, it's that nothing is off topic.
The passages from the Catechism speak to the reality of an original sin that we all inherit from our first parents. Since the Church does not currently have another theory other than the traditional one about who the first parents were or how that sin is propagated, she continues to use the language of that traditional theory to describe it. The point that I have been maintaining is that although the existence and propagation of original sin is dogmatic, the exact nature of the first parents and the exact nature of the propagation has yet to be fully defined. Many people want to have everything clear-cut and to feel that they have everything all figured out, but that's not the way revelation works.
Mr. Kenz rightly points out that, strictly speaking, science cannot undermine monogenism because science in the modern sense does not speak to the reality of substantial form; i.e., a collection of hominids that biologists might consider the first parents of the human race might not all be human in the strict philosophical sense. What scientific investigation might do, however, is show (probabilistically to be sure, but possibly also beyond reasonable doubt) that the current human race is descended from a breeding pool that never dropped below a certain number (e.g. 500), that might be much greater than 2, since before humans were around. This would imply either polygenism or that human beings interbred with non-human animals at some point. Many people, unsurprisingly, find this distasteful or philosophically impossible. The former it is, but given human nature it is also intrinsically probable. The latter objection is indicative of a failure to understand the nature of substantial generation.
October 1 at 7:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Jody, I was just being a smartass
October 1 at 7:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Michael Bolin, the small breeding pool also applies to Noah, right?
October 1 at 7:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sigh.... People don't think that story was real right? (Not completely)
October 1 at 7:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I think an ark existed but he only saved the local zoo.
October 1 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if science points toward a breeding population in excess of the passengers on the ark... what are we to believe? Clearly something flooded in the mideast (Utnapishtem anyone?)
October 1 at 7:58pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Mt Arafat doesn't get the archeological studies it deserves.
October 1 at 8:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I love archeology, I regret the slow process and politics that slow it down.
October 1 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha. that would be anthropological studies... if Arafat were a mountain and not a dead Palestinian....
October 1 at 8:04pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger The question of how many were in the post deluvian genetic pool (male and female) was answered by the midnight tNET theological society circa comment 4l00. (The answer was a little obscure but suggested one man, Noah, and several older female lines, his wife and daughter in laws. But I am pretty ignorant on the subject.)
October 1 at 8:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Stupid autocorrect
October 1 at 8:04pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Reanimate Arafat and water board him till he talks!!!!!
October 1 at 8:05pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF In any version, mustn't Adam have somehow had the ability to generate a diverse genetic pool?
October 1 at 8:08pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Add more non-rational to the gene pool. Then generate over and over again inbred style until various traits survive and others fail. End result, geographically differentiated races of humans.
October 1 at 8:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Pigmies and Vikings result.
October 1 at 8:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- that's him. My beloved only brother.
October 1 at 8:20pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If Adam lived as long as he seems to have, he'd have plenty of time to produce a huge population
Also, God could have given him unusual genetic diversity as a special gift.
October 1 at 8:22pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Except..... Not likely.
October 1 at 8:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley Science is not of particulars, so I don't why it wouldn't be unlikely.
October 1 at 8:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But in pre Deluvian nature . . . .
October 1 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Cool story bro.
October 1 at 8:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz All I know is that all of mankind takes its descent from Adam and Eve as our first parents, that positing bestiality early on would mean a very grave depravity immediately after the fall, leaving aside the problems of like begetting like. That original sin is propagated through generation, and that whether or not the various genetic bottle necks science discovers in the history of human descent correspond with the flood or Adam and Eve or not, because of the ontological leap, assuming man was form ex materia from hominid animals, is not evidenced in this way, science cannot in fact, show that the human population was always at a number greater than 2 since one cannot distinguish in the data that ontological leap.
October 1 at 8:24pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Scotus has a really interesting instrument against an infinity of per se causes (I might get the details wrong, though):
The prior per se cause is a more perfect cause then the posterior cause.
Thus, if there were an infinity of per se causes, there would be an infinite cause (i.e. a cause greater than an infinity of causes; given because we're postulating an actual infinity).
An infinite cause doesn't depend on another.
A cause that doesn't depend on another is a first cause.
Thus, if there were an infinite number of causes, there would be a first cause.
But an infinite number of causes lacks a first, therefore it is impossible.
QED
October 1 at 8:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Now I have to go to work. And I will reread Genesis...with the mind of the Church that it is a true historical account, which must mean something more than "it conveys some abstract truths about creation". Plato's myths attempt to do that. But that isn't history.
October 1 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Don't know if it really works, but it sure is cool . . .
October 1 at 8:27pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Michael Beitia: Yes, the same evidence, to the extent that it is conclusive, would exclude a breeding pool as small as Noah's family as well. Having said that, there is already plenty of reason to think that there was never a global flood such as that described in the Noah story.
Edward: The difficulty is not merely that one man would need to have a large number of offspring. It's that there are many more alleles than can exist in two human genomes as we know them. Of course, if we posit miraculous intervention anything is possible, but God performs miracles for the sake of producing faith, not because nature isn't up to the job.
Joshua: As I noted, science can (in principle, without giving a judgment as to the current state) in fact show *either* that the human population was always greater than 2 or that bestiality occurred. And if by generation you mean sexual reproduction, it is not true that we know that original sin is propagated in this way; that is to go beyond what the sources of revelation tell us.
October 1 at 8:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley As far as Adam and Eve go, if God intended there to be more than two humans (which seem necessary to say, else why create a sexual being) and if genetic diversity is a good, absolutely speaking and furthermore, necessary for the well-being of the human race, then it seems that one could argue that the non-rational hominid theory is impossible because it would require that God would will an evil (bestiality) as necessary for the good of the human race.
And pre- vs. post- lapsarianism wouldn't seem to matter because, on the hypothesis of no Fall, genetic diversity would still be a good that could not be achieved from two first parents reproducing in the normal way.
October 1 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It seems that it is appropriate for Adam + Eve to have unusual reproductive characteristics precisely because they are the parents of the whole race: it might not even be a miracle, strictly speaking, but something more like a grace attaching to a particular office.
October 1 at 8:34pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley BTW, my claim is that they were created with reproductive cells that were genetically diverse from each other, so that, e.g., the normal paternity tests would indicate that one of their sons, say Seth, wasn't their son: Creation is already supernatural, so I don't think this really involves an unusual miracle.
October 1 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, it's very like Aquinas's contention that Adam had the intelligible forms of every species in his possible intellect or the various other praeternatural gifts.
October 1 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill If we do not see it occur in the modern physical world it is safe to assume it didn't occur then either.
God doesn't need to work through miracles when he has all the time in his creation available.
October 1 at 8:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffie, you're acting like you don't see a reason that Christians should engage seriously with the Genesis account
October 1 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Every time a person is conceived, something happens that exceeds the whole order of nature; what I'm positing is a relatively minor adjustment that has the advantage of (a) not requiring bestiality to be necessary for the good of the human race and (b) upholding the long-standing traditional interpretation of the first couple.
October 1 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Those are some mighty good reasons to think something like what I do, even if they don't completely decide the matter.
October 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Michael Bolin --- how can one thing (i.e.: first parents; original couple) be stated so clearly in the catechism only for you to call it an analogy? It is one thing to say that a story in scripture isn't literal (but even I hesitate to run to that as a first course of action) but to say that the catechism is speaking symbolically seems to be more extreme.
October 1 at 8:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe not to mention that the "long-standing traditional interpretation of the first couple" is vital for maintaining the truth of pretty much all of Christianity.
October 1 at 8:46pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau And I like the CCC quotes for the particular priest I am addressing from Monday night's class -- because he doesn't like Thomistic-speak. Only JPII sources (and CCC must be one of them.)
October 1 at 8:47pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau St Paul seems to be the source quote for the CCC quotations (from the footnotes).
October 1 at 8:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Quid est CCC?
October 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley Catechism of the Catholic Church
October 1 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Catechism of the Catholic Church (you are lucky Scott isn't here to witness that momentary lapse)
October 1 at 8:49pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe oh. right.
October 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley promulgated sometime around 1990 . . .
October 1 at 8:48pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau You'd just prove his point about TACers and doctrine
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It was in Latin, so Scott would have no idea what I said.
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau snort
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I wonder what Scott thinks about Samantha, since she's not Catholic.
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm a walking confirmation of his point about TACers and doctrine
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Hmmm.. interesting
October 1 at 8:49pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Oh my gosh, someone isn't catholic? *faints*
October 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe He seems not to have noticed that. Keeps calling me a model of Catholic motherhood and so forth
October 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Can we do a study on Samantha?
October 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau bah ha! (wait… maybe you are!)
October 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's just when he's apologizing for calling me other things... but still.
October 1 at 8:50pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau He apologized?
October 1 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Cite the article where he did that
October 1 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Not really, he just denied saying some insulting stuff that he definitely said, and then said some other untrue stuff about me being a model of Catholic womanhood to smooth things over.
October 1 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dear Perescott.
October 1 at 8:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Elliot Milco, when did you graduate?
October 1 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ...from Yale.
October 1 at 8:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do you know Samuel Baker? (oh gosh I hope Sam doesn't follow this tag)
October 1 at 8:54pm · Like
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Elliot Milco I don't think I knew him. I graduated from the College in 2011.
October 1 at 8:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe yeah, no overlap. He did just convert to Catholicism, though.
October 1 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the traitor. (whom I love)
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Samantha Cohoe I'll let y'all get back to Genesis now. I have to read Lilith for book club.
October 1 at 8:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sammie, the book of genesis is a bit like the book of revelation.... We really don't know what is literal or how it is literal.
October 1 at 9:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It is one of those great mysteries where we find out "how" when we get to the final end.
October 1 at 9:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but..... at the same time Jeff, it is a point of dogma that original sin is transmitted from Adam. (but like you said, how this is to be, we don't know - yet)
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Jeff Neill But the safe bet is to start with the world around us and study how it exists, how we exist and learn from the signs left in and on the earth of what happened before history.
October 1 at 9:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If the earth is by design then it should work by design everything a part of a slowly moving masterpiece.
October 1 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^fittingness argument
October 1 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Shhhhhh
October 1 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jeff, that's why I've always maintained that the study of math and science could be a holy project.
October 1 at 9:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I dislike the idea that theology necessitates canceling science.
October 1 at 9:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Rather than perfects it.
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Samantha Cohoe Fair enough. I don't think anyone wants to cancel science.
October 1 at 9:10pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Well, depends on what you call "science".
October 1 at 9:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I agree wholeheartedly.
It's one of the reasons the big bang theory was first postulated by a Catholic religious and endorsed as theologically sound by a pope
October 1 at 9:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Anyone that denies evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis is an idiot.
October 1 at 9:16pm · Like · 4
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Elliot Milco That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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Edward Langley Jeff, I don't think anyone here is advocating "cancelling science".
October 1 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Didn't Scotegrine deny evolution? Or rather, belief in evolution was one of his accusations against TAC.
October 1 at 9:19pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley But science, properly speaking, doesn't tell us about singulars except insofar as they come under a universal.
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Liz Neill Jeffie, where is Paul? I sincerely hope he is with you. And anyone who denies evolution...
October 1 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, science, in the modern sense, is the inductive process by which the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" is proved again and again
October 1 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Still can't give us singulars, Michael.
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Michael Beitia nope it is the process of induction whereby individuals become universals in the form of mathematics.
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Jeff Neill I have Paul, we are at Steph's house with George
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Liz Neill Just making sure you still had him
October 1 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Elliot, do you agree that modern scientific inquiry into the world around us is a more accurate rendition of reality than a few chapters in genesis?
October 1 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley yes and no
October 1 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Why?
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Samantha Cohoe I know people who deny evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis who are not idiots.
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Michael Bolin There's a lot to reply to here, so I will select the most significant points.
First, to Edward: God's intention of various created goods is always hypothetical, since God need not create anything at all. And there are many goods that he wills that imply the existence of evil, though in no case does it imply that God wills evil as such, only that he wills goods which cannot be unless certain evils also are. This is neither impossible nor even strange, but true in the case of every evil whatsoever. Every time a sin is committed, there is some good willed by God that would not come to be unless the sin were committed, which is why God permits the moral evil as such. The classic example is of course the redemption, which could not be without the fall (hence the felix culpa).
Regarding Adam and Eve, there are two things to note. The first is that if they possessed reproductive cells that were not produced by the normal process, this would surely be a miracle in any usual sense of the term, just as their possession of the preternatural gifts was. The claim that "creation is already supernatural" is only pertinent if you assume in advance that Adam and Eve were created ex nihilo. The creation ex nihilo or divine modification of one's reproductive cells, which are physical entities in their own right, is not a minor adjustment but a miracle.
The creation of the human soul ex nihilo, on the other hand, is not miraculous but fully in accord with nature, even though it is produced by God. The first activities of matter are from God because nature only acts in virtue of the divine causality, and that appropriately formed matter should be a substance of the appropriate kind, and therefore possess the corresponding substantial form, is a first activity of matter and therefore as natural as anything can be.
The second point is that even this postulated miracle would not fully explain the observed data, since it would not explain why the additional alleles found in Adam and Eve's reproductive cells so closely parallel those found in the animal species most closely related to man, whereas this fact is perfectly explained by those alleles originating in a population that was a common ancestor of man and these other animals.
Third, why would it be a virtue of an account that it would not imply that early men interbred with non-human animals? That, along with every other sin, is precisely the kind of thing that fallen human beings do. Likewise, upholding the traditional interpretation is a merit when all other things are equal, but if the contrary evidence is sufficiently strong it is no longer an advantage, since we should not hold positions that reason makes untenable.
Samantha: First, to engage seriously with the Genesis account does not mean to read it as signifying what it was not written to signify, or to assume that we know in precisely what way it pertains to history. And to interpret Genesis correctly we need to engage seriously with the modern scientific account. Second, Christianity's account depends on original sin being found in all, not on the details of its origin or propagation.
Jody: Exactly, the Catechism uses St. Paul's language. This does not imply any specific interpretation of that language. The Catechism is presenting the doctrine, not developing it, and so it uses the language appropriate to the current state of understanding of the doctrine. This does not require any special intention on the part of the authors of the Catechism to speak figuratively, but only to use the language of Scripture.
October 1 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Because the Scripture is the inspired Word of God, so whatever it says, when understood properly, must be said to be true.
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Jeff Neill But by definition I defined them as such.
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Michael Bolin That is true, Samantha, but they are ignorant.
October 1 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Woah, Michael Bolin, that was a text dump of Kenzian proportions
October 1 at 9:32pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley So, whatever the right interpretation of Genesis is, it will be a "good picture of reality".
October 1 at 9:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ignorant of evolutionary biology, probably. But then, so am I, and so are most of us.
October 1 at 9:32pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin, I agree with your paragraph addressed to me, except this part -- "Second, Christianity's account depends on original sin being found in all, not on the details of its origin or propagation."
October 1 at 9:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Michael Bolin, my argument was that God didn't create fallen man, so as created, there had to be a way for man to achieve the good of genetic diversity that didn't involve sin: either that, or deny that it such diversity is part of the human race as such and only good for it under a certain hypothesis.
October 1 at 9:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It matters that sin came to all through first parents-- as through Adam came death, so through Christ came life
October 1 at 9:35pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley ^This is very strong, it seems to me, one Redeemer, one first parent.
October 1 at 9:36pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "The second point is that even this postulated miracle would not fully explain the observed data, since it would not explain why the additional alleles found in Adam and Eve's reproductive cells so closely parallel those found in the animal species most closely related to man, whereas this fact is perfectly explained by those alleles originating in a population that was a common ancestor of man and these other animals."
This is irrelevant: there is certainly a very limited range of DNA sequences that are required if we are to have the proximate matter of a human. Any DNA sequence in that range will be a DNA sequence that "matches species closely related to man". Especially if the body of Adam were formed via evolution.
October 1 at 9:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, and in case anyone doesn't know, that was Scripture.
October 1 at 9:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I agree, Samantha, but why does the specific mode of propagation matter?
October 1 at 9:39pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Edward: From the very beginning God intended an end for man, namely union with him in the community of the blessed (the *specific* community that will ultimately be) that implied sin. The Incarnation was not Plan B but the plan all along.
October 1 at 9:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'll have to think about that, Michael, but there's something that just seems wrong to me with that claim that I can't put my finger on.
October 1 at 9:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Michael, your brother Joseph had an uncanny ability to insert precision as you do.
Well written.
October 1 at 9:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Sammie, you know Catholics don't read the bible.
October 1 at 9:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I want to say that the actual elect God knows by foreknowledge but not necessarily that he wills that community, simpliciter, because that would seem to involve him willing evil. But I can't yet see how to formulate my view in a satisfactory way.
October 1 at 9:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley Most of us have read it at least once, Jeff.
October 1 at 9:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I actually wrote my dissertation on that topic (God's causality and sin). But linking that might be too Pater Edmund-esque.
October 1 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill A life of believing one thing to be changed late in life is always challenging.
October 1 at 9:47pm · Like
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Jeff Neill FULL CIRCLE
October 1 at 9:47pm · Like
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Liz Neill Circle of life...
October 1 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D17VBxsZ1Pw
Will The Circle Be Unbroken ~ June Carter Cash
Old school religion classic written in our time period.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 1 at 9:53pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin "Any DNA sequence in that range will be a DNA sequence that 'matches species closely related to man'. Especially if the body of Adam were formed via evolution."
No, this isn't correct. The claim here isn't about the general genetic similarities but about specific alleles that need not exist at all. For instance, the human race would exist just fine even if the specific allele for blood type B weren't found in any human being, or in any of the related animals. And the formation of Adam's body via evolution wouldn't help if we're talking specifically about the hypothesis that Adam and Eve had reproductive cells not formed in the natural manner, containing genetic information that was not found in their somatic cells. So there is no necessity that the genetic information in question exist at all, much less that it match up in man and the other primates. And I have never seen an explanation for this fact other than 1) polygenism, 2) interbreeding, 3) pure chance (usually with no sense of how improbable this would be, or 4) God just made it that way and we can't understand why. Needless to say, I find the latter two highly implausible.
October 1 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8zLx_JtcQVI
The Lion King - The Circle Of Life (HD)
A song from Disney's The Lion King.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 1 at 9:56pm · Like
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Liz Neill Sorry, trolling. I'll stop.
October 1 at 10:00pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In general, there seems to be here an unwarranted distrust of the scientific method and the scientific community, and a corresponding belief that revelation possesses a degree of clarity and precision that exceeds what it actually possesses, whereby revelation is a kind of secret esoteric gnosis that frees us from the hard work and often humbling task of discovering the details of our world and race's history by painstaking investigation of material reality. But science does have much to teach us about these things, and even about philosophical questions like the generation of substance. I think we should take more seriously what St. John Paul II said about this: "I am more and more convinced that scientific truth, which is itself a participation in divine Truth, can help philosophy and theology to understand ever more fully the human person and God’s Revelation about man, a Revelation that is completed and perfected in Jesus Christ."
October 1 at 10:09pm · Like · 4
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Liz Neill Bolin, exactly. Well said.
October 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael, that may be true of some here, it's not my intent at all.
October 1 at 10:12pm · Like
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Liz Neill In regards to Ashman. Let us realize this mans father was a Marxist. I don't wonder why he has the views he does. Altered, sure. But he is the complete opposite of Marxism.
October 1 at 10:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley As said before, ultimately I want to have an account of the sense of the text ad litteram in Augustine's sense that can be said to be true. Additionally, I worry about scientistic presuppositions clouding the view of the text. I am open to a significant portion of the text being figurative . . . Thing is, the official position of the church still seems to be that all descended from Adam (+ probably Eve) and, unless one has special qualification, it's good to accept such a teaching as true.
In evidence of this is everything from the Canons of Trent to the condemnation of Teilhard de Chardin to Humani Generis, not to mention the complete lack of a non-reproductive account of the transmission of original sin.
October 1 at 10:18pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (If it makes any sense, my position is all put "sine praeiudicio meliori sententiae", as Albert would se)
October 1 at 10:19pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger No, Mr. Bolin. I wish I could assure you that I have a warranted distrust of the scientific community. As to the scientific method or methods, I am aware of its limits and of the forgetfulness of its practitioners of the arts required. This is to say nothing of the relation of mathematics to such inquiry, Mr. Beitia.
October 1 at 10:22pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just wondering -- would it be enough to have 1 original pair created directly by God (Adam & Eve) and they sin. Then any other new humans created directly by God (Adam 2.0 and Eve 2.0) are now also fallen account of the original sin but not through human generation but because the material is flawed in the fallen world? That would get you one original sin (which is more important than 1 original pair).
October 1 at 10:27pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just as Mary's preparation for the incarnation through the Immaculate Conception preserved her to be free from sin even in her matter. (The converse)
October 1 at 10:29pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I put that out there, but I really incline more toward a literal interpretation of Genesis. I'd rather be found wanting on account of my child-like simplicity than incorrect by means of my proud intellect when I come before the Throne of God.
October 1 at 10:30pm · Like
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Liz Neill I understand your desire for childlike ignorance, but when given the education / tools to understand more fully you no longer get the ignorance claim.
October 1 at 10:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://nautil.us/.../the-big-bang-is-hard-science-it-is...
The Big Bang Is Hard Science. It Is Also a Creation Story. - Issue 17: Big Bangs -...
NAUTIL.US
October 1 at 10:49pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Are y'all familiar with the character of Holofernes in Love's Labors Lost? Just wondering.
October 1 at 11:08pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman I shouId cIarify that my father caIIed himseIf a marxist, spoke Iike one, pissed of my conservative grandfather Iike one, but in every action, was exceedingIy conservative. So when he got super upset that I started to disagree with him and said "I don't know where you get these crazy ideas" I said "from you, you raised me to be conservative". He was not a happy man. This is part of the extreme dichotomy between how peopIe often see themseIve and how they actuaIIy are. For instance, Ieftists and rightwingers who cIaim to be dovoted to the great Iibertarian Jesus.
October 1 at 11:09pm · Like
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John Ashman Jeff Neill "Anyone that denies evolution on account of a literal interpretation of Genesis is an idiot."
This wouId strongIy suggest that nothing in the BibIe shouId be taken IiteraIIy, since if that part is not actuaIIy true, then it casts down on every other part. I see this is as the Iong term probIem for Christianity, is the unresoIvabiIity of the two BibIes.
October 1 at 11:14pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The whole bible is not like genesis. From the eArly 300's a.d. It was stated that the bible is mix of literal and figurative language and genesis is on the figurative side. Just as Christ taught in parables. (Strawman stories)
October 1 at 11:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Isak ^ yes.
October 1 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Not true Assman
October 1 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I have been toId that aII parts of the BibIe are factuaI and incontrovertibIe.
October 1 at 11:26pm · Like
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John Ashman Very Christian of you Iiz.
October 1 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Sweet Jesus...
October 1 at 11:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I won't object to the statement that monogenism is the better opinion at this point in time, all things considered. I only object to claiming that it is established dogma, or to decking it out with additional speculative hypotheses (supernatural genetics, etc.) that are designed to force the empirical data into conforming to one's preferred account. I think it would be better simply to say that perhaps we don't know how to comfortably fit the two together, which is a perfectly respectable opinion (although I do think the interbreeding hypothesis is eminently probable).
Jody: I like the "flawed material" aspect of the hypothesis, though again I think it's perfectly fine to just say that we don't know everything (or rather we don't know very much at all) about the details of the historical origins of man. As for the other issue, I think the temptation to pride can go both ways--I know people (and was in a similar camp myself for a long time) who object to evolution on the grounds that God wouldn't want the Church to learn anything from unbelievers.
October 1 at 11:27pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill
October 1 at 11:27pm · Like
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Liz Neill Omg lol, did not mean Assman
October 1 at 11:30pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill I'm laughing so hard
October 1 at 11:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin John Ashman: The Catholic position is that everything asserted in Scripture is true. When Catholics (at least those on this forum) speak of Genesis not being necessarily literal, they do not mean that it asserts things that are not true, but that in order to determine what it asserts, one needs to read it according to its genre, which is close to that of ancient myth. Myth here does not mean false stories, but a way of telling stories that may be true.
This does not mean that other parts of Scripture are in the same genre. Luke, for instance, tells us quite plainly what his genre is, namely that of Greco-Roman history. And so his gospel is to be read accordingly, i.e. as generally historical, but not claiming that quotations are verbatim or that the order is precisely chronological, etc.
October 1 at 11:34pm · Unlike · 8
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Edward Langley ^This is why I avoid words like "literal": for Aquinas and Augustine the "literal sense" presumes that the figures of speech have already been interpreted. Nowadays, the "literal sense" often seems to preclude such interpretation.
October 1 at 11:48pm · Like · 6
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Edward Langley In Aquinas's sense, whatever the "literal sense" of the text is, that sense must be true.
There are also further senses of the text which happen because the things signified by the text are themselves signs of other things: thus, for example, the rock that gave forth water and followed the Israelites in the desert was itself a sign of Christ, as St. Paul tells us.
October 1 at 11:50pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Haggard This thread isn't long enough yet.
October 2 at 12:06am · Unlike · 6
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John Ashman The non-IiteraI BibIe truIy makes sense when it is assumed that these were spirituaI men trying to expIain the unexpIainabIe and create a tempIate for moraI behavior, rather than the direct, dictated word of God.
October 2 at 12:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict ^According to what objective measure are you making that claim?
October 2 at 1:06am · Like
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John Ashman "IMO". 'night!
See Translation
October 2 at 1:07am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You guys are all a bunch of materialists. Stop looking "down" — look up!
October 2 at 1:07am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Come with us mystics to the Platonic realms and glimpse the true ineffable - TNETness itself!
October 2 at 1:08am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Adam HaRishon! Read your Kabbala.
October 2 at 1:11am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson
October 2 at 1:13am · Like · 11
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Isak Benedict Henry Miller on creative death and the art of living.
October 2 at 1:14am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict "In the jungle, the mighty jungle, TNET sleeps tonight"
October 2 at 4:00am · Like · 2
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Clayton Brockman
October 2 at 6:07am · Like · 7
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Elliot Milco Are we posting photos now?
October 2 at 6:51am · Like · 5
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Joel HF http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/.../thomas-aquinas-henry...
October 2 at 7:14am · Like
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Joel HF I suspect the bit at the end about the catholic academics who were bashing Neo-Scholastic Thomis may well have been TAC tutors.
October 2 at 7:18am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not sure where Michael Bolin's claim that we are anti-scientific on tNET came from. It seems to me that the order of knowing in any account of Genesis is different from the order of knowing in genetics. I haven't seen a young earther, a geocentrist, or anyone arguing for crystalline spheres yet....
October 2 at 8:09am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia fine. no one come entertain me. I guess I'll just pretend to "work" without tNET.
October 2 at 9:23am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill West coast waking up..... Is it Tnet o'clock yet?
October 2 at 9:25am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Jody seems to be on the anti-science side desiring literal interpretation and claiming ignorance, to avoid a proud intellect.
However these views and teachings will not help convert the modern agnostic (self proclaimed atheist) since they all like to claim literal interpretation is denying what we already know about the world.
October 2 at 9:34am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia especially when one considers the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in science"
It is why people like NTdG drive me crazy. They say that science is science and philosophy is useless, but they can't account for their method, nor the reason why their method should be so effective.
October 2 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Lol... He belongs at a TED talk.
Where everything is explained s l o w l y w I t h A d o u b l e. S e r v I n g o f w o n d e r W H O A !!! B I G I D E A
October 2 at 10:25am · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma http://vimeo.com/96957388
Borromini's San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane
VIMEO.COM|BY CAMERONWU
October 2 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger What do we "know". We must distinguish between theories that are in need of constant revision and the repeatable observations that are the evidence of such. That and what the real role of mathematics is both in the theories and in making observations. I see a lot of confusion here.
October 2 at 10:40am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe For once I agree with John Ruplinger.
October 2 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Mathematics is just a game. You set up the rules and play. It's not real.
October 2 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Mathematics is real.
October 2 at 10:55am · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Mathematics is measuring lines and lines are real!
October 2 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Lines are only concepts of the mind. It's all a game.
October 2 at 11:02am · Like
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Joel HF Numbers are lines. #gustingnosis
October 2 at 11:03am · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma To quote Mad Molly G. "Numbers are just lines, what else do you want them to be? Birdies? The feathers get in the way!"
October 2 at 11:04am · Like · 6
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Joel HF "Mad Molly G"--I like that. I like that a lot.
October 2 at 11:05am · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma
October 2 at 11:06am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill If numbers are real, base 12 > 10
October 2 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Where did Michael Bolin claim that we are anti-scientific on TNET? I thought he was just saying that by "not literal" we mean something like "mythic," which I agree with. Maybe I didn't scroll up far enough...
October 2 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If Mathematics isn't real, then you aren't real.
October 2 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Numbers. Not mathematics
October 2 at 11:18am · Edited · Like
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Elliot Milco Few things irritate me more than Christians jumping over each other to call young earthers idiots and emphasize how pro-"science" they are.
October 2 at 11:17am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict If reality is a concept of the mind, then lines are concepts of the mind, yes. Which makes them real. If reality is not a concept of the mind, then lines are not concepts of the mind either, but that which stops everything from oozing into everything else. Which still makes them real. Lines are real. Lines are real.
October 2 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma How so? I'm not a hexagon. It's just a nominal description of a thing that I've invented in my mind.
October 2 at 11:18am · Like
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Jeff Neill But they are idiots. Young earthing is stupid
October 2 at 11:19am · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict The young earth theory is pretty moronic...ooh look how pro-science I am guys!
October 2 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma I never said reality is a concept of the mind. It's real, that's self evident.
October 2 at 11:19am · Like
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Elliot Milco *slain*
October 2 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Isak I don't think you understand the difference between existence and nominal existence.
October 2 at 11:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So mathematics is just a construct for you Erik?
October 2 at 11:21am · Unlike · 1
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Erik Bootsma If nominal existence made things "really real" then unicorns are really real.
October 2 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ever watch/ read one of those "the layers in the strata were made during Noah's flood arguments?
October 2 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I wasn't saying that's what you said, just saying what would have to be true for your idea that lines are concepts of the mind to be true. I know you're not a hexagon.
For one thing, shapes are harder to consider I think. It seems to be a different question as to whether lines exist in the world simply, or certain shapes composed of those lines.
October 2 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is true Erik.
October 2 at 11:21am · Like
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Erik Bootsma Jeff. I was talking about my rug.
October 2 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The question is whether Mathematicals are only nominally real.
October 2 at 11:21am · Like
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Jeff Neill It tied the room together.
October 2 at 11:22am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia let's all get Platonic and shit
October 2 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma No, its whether it's a game or not.
October 2 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I think you assume a lot about what I know and don't know, Erik...
October 2 at 11:22am · Like
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Jeff Neill Numbers are nominally real.
October 2 at 11:22am · Like
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Erik Bootsma No, they're just birdies. Come on.
October 2 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia real numbers or imaginary numbers?
October 2 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, you aren't really interested in discussing the reality of mathematicals?
October 2 at 11:22am · Like
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Michael Beitia I am
October 2 at 11:23am · Like
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Elliot Milco What about the reality of transfinite numbers?
October 2 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Of course I understand the difference between nominal existence and existence. Why are you being a prick, Erik?
October 2 at 11:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia woah, a Cantor sighting!
October 2 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Isak, it's his nature.
October 2 at 11:23am · Like
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Jeff Neill Migratory numbers change with the seasons.
October 2 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No one is a prick, here.
October 2 at 11:23am · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey listen to that infinitesimal warbling
October 2 at 11:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Some people are just afraid of mathematicals.
October 2 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Do you mean that literally or just nominally?
October 2 at 11:24am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Christians of all stripes have the unfortunate tendency not to identify with one another. "Oh yes, I'm a Christian, but not *that* kind of Christian. Those guys are idiots."
October 2 at 11:24am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Yep^
October 2 at 11:24am · Unlike · 2
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Elliot Milco Exactly Samantha.
October 2 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Figuratively
October 2 at 11:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Are you saying you're not one of *those* Christians that have that tendency, Samantha?
October 2 at 11:25am · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict
October 2 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Just coming out from underneath the bridge to pad stats.
October 2 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Loving it
October 2 at 11:25am · Like
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Michael Beitia you'll never catch me Booty
October 2 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Nope. I totally do that. But I am a sinner.
October 2 at 11:25am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia in either way
October 2 at 11:26am · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel - I think that should be the tagline for the inevitable Hollywood adaptation of TNET into a movie - "No one is a prick, here."
October 2 at 11:26am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia so as to mathematicals, their division and kinds?
October 2 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Whatever goat.
October 2 at 11:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not a goat, ask mad Molly G
October 2 at 11:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill http://www.sciencedaily.com/rele.../2014/03/140317095843.htm
Who’s afraid of math? Study finds some genetic factors
A new study of math anxiety shows how some people...
SCIENCEDAILY.COM
October 2 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Discreet and Continuous.
October 2 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia of discreet, further abstractions from the act of counting
October 2 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
October 2 at 11:28am · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco Transcendental numbers are not nominally real.
October 2 at 11:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia but not exactly "number" either
October 2 at 11:28am · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia pi is a ratio
October 2 at 11:29am · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict Seriously if lines don't exist in res then nothing could have a shape of any kind. I would sink into the floor, my laptop would merge with this desk...it would get messy. Lines exist as the borders between things.
Look everyone I can use Latin phrases too!
October 2 at 11:29am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but the borders are damn fuzzy on the planck scale
October 2 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill And in substance, never been straight.
October 2 at 11:31am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict All lines are gay.
October 2 at 11:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But we see the straight and the curved in things.
October 2 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We see line and surface and number.
October 2 at 11:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict Yes indeed we do! Mmmmmmmm
October 2 at 11:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict A point is that which has no fart.
October 2 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict *part
October 2 at 11:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey! Hey guys! Can we talk about St. Anselm's argument for the existence of God and why it's perfect and beautiful AS WELL AS the best demonstration anyone has come up with?
October 2 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma How is it that without line (pure notional form) my matter would fall apart?
October 2 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there is no such thing as continuous quantity, outside of the mind, it is an abstraction from the discreet
October 2 at 11:34am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- that was someone's thesis when I was a freshman, poor soul.
October 2 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia if you're 06, then that would be 03, which would have been a freshman my senior year..... which doofus?
October 2 at 11:38am · Like
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Erik Bootsma Morgan I Branch, that's your class right?
October 2 at 11:39am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm just glad no one posted "blurred lines"
October 2 at 11:39am · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Are you sure?
October 2 at 11:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia yes. very.
October 2 at 11:40am · Like
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Erik Bootsma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc
"Weird Al" Yankovic - Word Crimes
"Weird Al" Yankovic's new album "Mandatory Fun" out now on iTunes: http://smarturl.it/MandatoryFun Amazon: http:/...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 2 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Can't stomach doing that, so I'll just graze it a bit.
October 2 at 11:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't regret any of the noogies I gave you
October 2 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I want to say Eric sorem? Could be wrong, though
October 2 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm totally serious about the ontological proof you guys
October 2 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, might have been my sophomore year
October 2 at 11:43am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My class was bound by our hatred of the upperclassmen when we were freshman-- didn't get too close, mostly
October 2 at 11:44am · Like
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Michael Beitia snobs.
October 2 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I really wish the math talk didn't get derailed. I had many a conversation with James Chastek about this actual subject.
October 2 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe They beat up Pater Edmund (inter alia), the jerks
October 2 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Anselm for president 2016
October 2 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #zombieanselmgnosis
October 2 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Computer programming freed us from numbers
October 2 at 12:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If there were no such thing as continuous quantity, then then all potential divisions in a given quantity are actual, and since quantity is infinitely divisible, then all quantity contains an actual infinite!!
October 2 at 12:03pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh no! Zeno's paradox is real!!
October 2 at 12:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, just trying to re-rail the math conversation I helped de-rail.
October 2 at 12:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Computer gaming freed us from responsibility
October 2 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Isak Benedict you aren't really serious about the ontological proof.
October 2 at 12:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But seriously, Zeno's paradox, guys. How do you traverse the infinite? Impossible!
October 2 at 12:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Walk across the room.
October 2 at 12:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^I.e., the actuality of potential as potential.
October 2 at 12:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe you're no fun, Big Angry.
October 2 at 12:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman sorry.
October 2 at 12:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But anyway, I was responding to Michael Beitia who was denying continuous quantity
October 2 at 12:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe and who CLAIMED he wanted to talk about math.
October 2 at 12:11pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman But, the infinite divisibility of the continuous is wondrous.
October 2 at 12:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, that's why Zeno's paradox is fun.
October 2 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sean Collins could say more on this, if he so chose.
October 2 at 12:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I could go back to complaining about '03 if y'all prefer.
October 2 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of infinite, I could tell you about how infinitely cool Peyton Manning is.
October 2 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And why he is the best QB in the game, and probably the history of the game.
October 2 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I would agree with you that you are using the word "infinite" in its precisely correct meaning.
October 2 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe also "cool"
October 2 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma "But seriously, Zeno's paradox, guys. How do you traverse the infinite? Impossible!" The limit.
October 2 at 12:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Limits are never reached, they are only known.
October 2 at 12:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or supposed
October 2 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Or real.
October 2 at 12:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia just like infinite divisibility is not reached. you get to a certain point, and your lab goes up in a mushroom cloud....
October 2 at 12:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia quantity can't be infinitely divisible insofar as it is "in" things. It has to be abstracted from the thing that we're quantifying.
October 2 at 12:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia quantity may infinitely divisible, but stuff isn't. therefore, insofar as it *is* infinitely divisible, it is abstracted and notional
October 2 at 12:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #mathgnosis?
October 2 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe whelp, that seems like a good distinction. ::::not actually opinionated about math:::::::
October 2 at 1:01pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma YOU! OUT! Only rednecks say "whelp".
October 2 at 1:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not a redneck, but why shouldn't rednecks be on tNET?
October 2 at 1:06pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma No educated person should EVER say that word.
October 2 at 1:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this is really because I'm not opinionated about math, isn't it?
October 2 at 1:07pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe k. whatevs.
October 2 at 1:07pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma No, I hate that word. Right up there with "adorbs"
October 2 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe that's just like, your opinion, man
October 2 at 1:08pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma That some sort of eastern thing?
October 2 at 1:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this aggression will not stand, man
October 2 at 1:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I am super opinionated about math. and slightly offended that this has been derailed again.
mark it 8 dude
October 2 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe not my fault your friend has a problem with my regional dialect
October 2 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia friend?
October 2 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe everybody from before my time is your friend
October 2 at 1:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia we used to car pool to and from TAC, be he always made me drive....
October 2 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Only when there were ships sailing across the Nevada desert.
October 2 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald I love the word whelp...
October 2 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma Out with both welps and curs.
October 2 at 1:31pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6tJWY2Vaz4&index=3...
Zefiro torna (Monteverdi) - Rial & Jaroussky
Claudio Monteverdi "Zefiro torna" Nuria Rial (soprano) Philippe Jaroussky (countertenor) L'Arpeggiata (direction:...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 2 at 1:33pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Whelp, y'all are so adorbs
October 2 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Annette FitzGerald Is bitch okay?
October 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ^no
October 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland unless you're talking about female dogs.
October 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner The above is just because I don't have time today to read anything, but still felt I should do something to make tNET nicer than I found it.
October 2 at 1:34pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF ^A low bar, to be sure.
October 2 at 1:36pm · Like · 9
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Michael Bolin "Few things irritate me more than Christians jumping over each other to call young earthers idiots and emphasize how pro-'science' they are."
This has nothing to do with external appearances or wanting P. Z. Myers to think we're cool. It has to do with the fact that Christians who propound such ideas are, in the end, a greater threat to Christianity than the atheists who think that science disproves religion. Augustine said it most eloquently in the famous passage:
"Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?"
It's not as easy as just saying, "Hey, we're all Christians, let's just stick together!" Ideas like YEC threaten people's souls.
October 2 at 1:41pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe and DEFINITELY not ok to call Gloriana, Queen Elizabeth.
October 2 at 1:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "Mind what you have learned. Save you it can."
October 2 at 1:56pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Poor Jesus! His taking Genesis literally is a threat to Christianity!
October 2 at 1:57pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante thank God 2000 years later people would come along who could correct Him on these matters
October 2 at 1:58pm · Like
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Annette FitzGerald Erik Bootsma: thanks for reminding me about "cur", turned out to be just the word I needed for a poem I'm writing.
October 2 at 1:58pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: Ducking back in to say that the New Yorker has a review of "Lila" in this week's issue. I stopped reading it because they were giving away too much of the book, but it seemed very favorable.
October 2 at 2:05pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin-- Nobody here has defended YEC, specifically, I don't think. I'm not saying that a certain kind of anti-science mindset among a certain subset of Christians isn't damaging. I'm saying, there are reasons other than idiocy that people want to take Genesis more much literally than you seem to advocate. Also, there is a big difference between arguing against an idea, as you have been doing, and dismissing all the people who hold that idea, as others (cough cough Jeffie) were.
October 2 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And Christians should stick together. That was definitely Jesus's plan.
October 2 at 2:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jehoshaphat Escalante: What NT quotes are you thinking of?
October 2 at 2:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley "You'll know they are Christians by their glue . . ."
October 2 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, as far as talking animals go, what about Balaam's ass? that seems much harder to deny the historicity of, since it's right in the middle of a historical narrative.
October 2 at 2:20pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Paul Keating tells a story in which someone is talking to a trad of some kind, and to the trad's surprise this person asserts that "Yes, I believe women should have the right of sufferage."
Trad responds: "Pffft - you probably believe in dinosaurs, too!"
October 2 at 2:22pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I don't think women should have rights . . . because I don't think anyone has rights, only duties others owe them.
October 2 at 2:22pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. Christians should stick together, Michael; at all costs, under the authority of the successor of Peter.
October 2 at 2:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley "21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.
22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
24 But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
25 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
26 And the angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.
31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
32 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.
34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the Lord, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
35 And the angel of the Lord said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak."
October 2 at 2:22pm · Like
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Max Summe Edward Langley - Rights ARE duties owed by others.....
October 2 at 2:23pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley ^ Yes and No
October 2 at 2:23pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Depends on who's using the word "right"
October 2 at 2:23pm · Like
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Max Summe In what way no?
October 2 at 2:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And owed to ourselves.
October 2 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think Ockham, for example, holds that they are some kind of quality
October 2 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Well that's always the case. But I could say that about anything. Most people don't have a definition for what they mean when they say rights beyond "I want"
October 2 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or, at the very least, some intrinsic perfection of a person.
October 2 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hobbes seems to think that too.
October 2 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew: Luke 17:27, Mark 10:6. And really, are you going to try say that He didn't? Or Paul? It would be very curious were Jesus and Paul to have been in possession of "Genesis is true myth" gnosis without the early Fathers having any inkling of it
October 2 at 2:25pm · Like
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Max Summe Hobbes is a fool, as we all know.
October 2 at 2:25pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Balaam proves my point, I think: "And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass" - so right there we have a miracle or direct divine intervention.
Because the premise is that asses - well, donkeys at least - don't speak.
October 2 at 2:26pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Sure, but it's not like the serpent in the garden spoke of its own accord either.
October 2 at 2:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, are you saying demons can perform miracles?
October 2 at 2:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, the mere fact that there was a talking animal isn't a reason to doubt the veracity of the story as a history.
October 2 at 2:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley Angels can affect bodies
October 2 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward you forgot, there was no serpent. It's a mythos which truly expresses the human condition.
October 2 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley I don't see why God couldn't have permitted Satan to possess the snake and then move the air in front of the snake's mouth in such a way as to produce sound.
October 2 at 2:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley After all, devils can possess pigs.
October 2 at 2:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, that's not made clear in the text, now is it?
October 2 at 2:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Why is clarity important here?
October 2 at 2:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante he's talking to me
October 2 at 2:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante insanely
October 2 at 2:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, what I'm doing right now is what Augustine tells us to do: interpreting obscure passages by distinct ones.
October 2 at 2:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes I wish philosophers would leave theology to theologians.
October 2 at 2:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, I'm talking to Ed. The fact is you have no idea who the serpent is from the text. That is not made clear either.
October 2 at 2:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley FACT: animals sometimes talk under supernatural influences. (Numbers 22)
FACT: demons can possess animals (see Legion and the pigs)
October 2 at 2:30pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, from the text it appears that the serpent, that is a snake, is the craftiest of all the creatures, right?
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sometimes I wish theologians would think so philosophers wouldn't have to think for them
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel Lendman-- you don't know enough theologians, then
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman FACT: your argument is based on a double affirmative in the second figure, and does not conclude with necessity.
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^WIN
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I am in a school of them.
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, I'm not trying to prove but to show possibility
October 2 at 2:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Is Dante's Paradiso a myth?
October 2 at 2:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As to what Jehoshaphat Escalante is saying, it's just silly caricature, which often works both ways in these debates.
What Christ says in those NT passages doesn't refute or contradict anything anyone has said here. Male and female they were created and people were partying like in the days of Noah. Right.
October 2 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Dante's Paradiso wasn't revealed
October 2 at 2:32pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma Daniel, according to PereScott you're not going to a school of theologians.
October 2 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not what I asked, Edward.
October 2 at 2:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew are you saying He wasn't invoking those cases as historical?
October 2 at 2:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, Erik just gave a strong argument from authority that the Paradiso is a myth.
October 2 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman
October 2 at 2:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Big Angry, I don't understand why you ask about Dante.
October 2 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Jehoshaphat, historical means different things throughout history.
October 2 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am trying to clarify terms.
October 2 at 2:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "and the flood came and killed them all...KIDDING I'm just using that old fairy tale for sermon illustration guys, calm down"
October 2 at 2:35pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Jehoshaphat Escalante: of course they are invoked as historical. But no one here would deny that.
October 2 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't know where this "Big Angry" stuff came from, by the way.
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really?
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so Jesus invokes them as historical, but you think He was wrong about that?
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Didn't Mike Grimm start it freshman year? Anyway, you were named for your essence.
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, I mean, why on the thread?
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe but affectionately
October 2 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and no, Daniel, the ancients knew the difference between history and fable
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Daniel - totally serious about the ontological proof, just busy teaching classes. Will respond later
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It first came up during the initial NFP thing
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson History=Herodotus
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman True, Jehoshaphat. But that doesn't mean that they thought about the way history should be written the way we do.
October 2 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley History = most of Genesis
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley (at least from Abraham on)
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe everybody who talks about history means-- stuff that actually happened.
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Probably from Seth etc., on.
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's not that complicated a term
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante keep going Edward you're almost there...
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So the best other example of ancient history is Herodotus. He doesn't write like a modern scholar so much.
October 2 at 2:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Jehoshaphat Escalante, I'm trying to reach common ground.
October 2 at 2:38pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Jeff said: "Jody seems to be on the anti-science side desiring literal interpretation and claiming ignorance, to avoid a proud intellect.
However these views and teachings will not help convert the modern agnostic (self proclaimed atheist) since they all like to claim literal interpretation is denying what we already know about the world."
I am far from anti-science. And I believe above all that there is one truth -- divine and scientific. They will not turn out to contradict. But I trust the divine truth is able to be known with more certainty (infallibility of the Catholic Church).
My real conclusion about science is that it doesn't always 'know' what it claims to know but people are quick to claim it as absolute. There are a lot of holes in the evolutionary theory (note the word 'theory'). It may be able to explain the mechanics of the process, but it doesn't even do that well! (Where are the other newly emerging humans who aren't born of human parents? why did this process stop? How does it account for the ontological leap?) Science can be found to be circular and support itself based on false assumptions (e.g.: proving the age of things by carbon dating can be wrong based on the assumptions made initially).
Although the Church says we MAY consider the mechanics of evolution as a possibility -- it has NOT said that we MUST accept them. How quickly and recently we have gone from being a Church who believed above all in being created by God to now condemning the faithful who say they believe in the story of Genesis. How did that happen?
October 2 at 2:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley People here seem to have doubts about the historicity of Noah.
October 2 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Look at the Gospels. Yes, they narrate events that actually happened.They are historically true. But not the way we think of history today.
Events were narrated in different orders, or with different emphasis, with little to no attention to chronology in order to teach theology.
October 2 at 2:38pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Noah is real.
October 2 at 2:38pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante modern scholarship isn't divided from ancient history by a specific difference of treating "what actually happened", but rather in the how (close documentary reconstruction)
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Daniel Lendman I think y-chromosomal Adam was Noah.
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Edward Langley Jody, Noah is the same problem as Adam and Eve, genetically speaking.
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Joel HF Mike Grimm is the efficient cause of our class having so many nicknames.
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Jody Haaf Garneau Noah had more people. (What problem Edward?)
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ancients and moderns both meant "what actually happened" by "history"
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Jody Haaf Garneau Edward -- how are you related to other Langleys?
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Daniel Lendman So, Jehoshaphat, if someone where trying to narrate a history about something that transcends normal human experience, what would they say? How would they write?
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Samantha Cohoe But only nicknames for the men, interestingly
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Edward Langley Depends which ones?
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Edward Langley I was in class of '12, my sister and a cousin was in '13, . . .
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Jody Haaf Garneau Mark, Mike ---
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Matthew J. Peterson But in any event, this is quibbling about words. The examples from the NT brought up have no bearing on what anyone has brought up thus far. No would deny the meaning is historical.
But if Genesis is simply a historical account, it's a pretty crappy one.
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Edward Langley Those are my uncles.
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ah
October 2 at 2:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, Jehoshaphat, if someone where trying to narrate a history about something that transcends normal human experience, what would they say? How would they write?
October 2 at 2:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Genesis tells what it needs to tell
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Matthew J. Peterson Right.
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think Genesis is a beautiful account and full of many deep truths
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Michael Bolin It's unclear to me what people here are thinking about this. Suppose I say that Israel recapitulates mankind; thus the enemy of Israel is used to represent the enemy of mankind. The enemy of Israel is Canaan, and the serpent is the symbol of the Canaanite fertility cults. Thus, the serpent is used to represent the enemy of mankind. Is this problematic?
October 2 at 2:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But it is a shoddy historical account if that is all it is.
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Matthew J. Peterson Purely historical accounts aren't usually full of deep truths.
October 2 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley How is this to be understood, if not historical?
"3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father[b] of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.
15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.
18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.
28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.
32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth."
October 2 at 2:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Well, is the "transcendence" by way of by an object which exceeds our minds, or by way of being unusual for our experience?
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Matthew J. Peterson And good history isn't purely historical. Like Herodotus.
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Daniel Lendman I contend that the pre-deluvian genesis account is trying to narrate events that transcend the bounds of normal human experience, post-deluge. Thus, when Moses wrote about it, he wrote in figure to describe an epic history.
October 2 at 2:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley "Purely historical accounts aren't usually full of deep truths."
That's the difference between human history and divinely inspired history.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Daniel, vide my question above
October 2 at 2:43pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante its an important distinction
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Matthew J. Peterson Which then, by definition, would be more than history simply speaking, Edward Langley.
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Daniel Lendman Yeah...
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Daniel Lendman Maybe both?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I say it can only be the latter not the former
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Edward Langley What is the mythical significance of the genealogy of everyone between Adam and Noah?
October 2 at 2:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley Or do we all agree that that's just historical fact?
October 2 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think when Genesis talks about walking in the Garden with God it is talking about an object that exceeds our minds.
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Daniel Lendman ^Right?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I don't. God in Himself does, but the theophany was an experience of sense
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Daniel Lendman ^necessarily?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that's what the text says
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Edward Langley I want to know how a genealogy can be true, if the people weren't actually related as it says.
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Daniel Lendman ^Generations can be skipped, for instance.
October 2 at 2:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I mean, imagine the creation account of the Days - that's PURE HISTORY? Hah. Self-contradicting, opaque history, I suppose.
Read the first chapter of Genesis as pure history and try to make sense of it.
In fact, there is a sense in which we have a very different understanding of history today. There is something more honest about the ancient understanding, which mixes in "deep truths" and causes, and tells stories for the sake of revealing what happened with clarity.
October 2 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As in Matthew.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward's point here holds whether or not generations are elided
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Edward Langley "After 50 years, George Washington begat Samuel Adams, America's first microbrewer; when Sam Adams was forty, he begat Abraham Lincoln who started the War of Northern Aggression and oppressed the south."
October 2 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ?WTF^
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Michael Beitia I prefer math
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Jehoshaphat Escalante So long as the original audience would understand "genuit" in that manner, that's ok
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Edward Langley That's a false history . . .
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Matthew J. Peterson There is no way Gen 1 can be read as pure history. It is apparent that something else is going on there.
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Daniel Lendman The Gospel of Matthew clearly skips and elides generations.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Meanwhile Peterson is giving God a shit review on Goodreads
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Daniel Lendman But it is a true genealogy.
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Edward Langley Could a generation have been skipped here:
"12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died."
October 2 at 2:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley Can that be true if Mahaliel was actually Kenan's grandson?
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Daniel Lendman Sure.
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Matthew J. Peterson No, I give it the best review. Because it is more than pure history. It is only on this tiresome and simplistic historical account claim that it is a shit read.
October 2 at 2:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, I just want to know when Genesis starts becoming a history.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante But everyone before like 1940 took it in the "simplistic account" way, Matthew, and you know it. Were they all just suckers for bad literature?
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, I don't see how.
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Daniel Lendman Post deluge.
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Daniel Lendman we refer to grandfathers as fathers.
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Matthew J. Peterson But on that account, explain to me what the hell this literal history means when it plainly contradicts itself in multiple ways? Or do you acknowledge that it plainly does so as regards the various accounts of light created before the sun?
What does it mean that the waters are separated to make way for the heavens before there is land?
October 2 at 2:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Augustine makes this argument, I think.
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Matthew J. Peterson Tell me what the obvious literal historical meaning of it is. Please, I beg you.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I actually dont think it contradicts itself, no
October 2 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "Or do you acknowledge that it plainly does so as regards the various accounts of light created before the sun?"
I'm pretty sure there was light before our sun, on any account. But anyways, you're just reiterating a point I made a long time ago.
October 2 at 2:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't either, but that's because I don't hold the absurd view that it is simply literal and historical in the modern senses of those words.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and you dont mean contradicts*itself*, btw, you mean contradicts modern science
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Edward Langley It's pretty clear to me that at least one of the creation accounts gives a non-temporal order.
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Matthew J. Peterson No. I MEAN IT IS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE ON ITS OWN TERMS AS LITERAL HISTORY
October 2 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante are you serious?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante then how did the Church take it that way for 2000 years?
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Pater Edmund ‘Philosophy and physical science must be interpreted so as to fit [adaptanda sunt] Sacred Scripture and the word of God; Sacred Scripture must not on the contrary be twisted [torquenda] to fit the judgements of the scientists.’ http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/reading-genesis/
Reading Genesis
There is a wide-spread belief among even faithful Catholics that the first chapter of the Bible should be taken with a...
EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM
October 2 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante thank God, the cavalry has arrived!
October 2 at 2:54pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Explain what this means. EVERYONE on tNET, TELL ME WHAT THIS MEANS. LITERALLY AND HISTORICALLY:
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.
THERE IS NO LAND YET. THAT IS STILL TO COME.
October 2 at 2:55pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund I'm not sure I understand the myth vs history distinction. Is this what people are thinking?:
Hesiod = myth
Homer = history
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Edward Langley That, somehow, our planet had a ring of water around it that was let out in the Great Flood.
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss The myth vs. history distinction wasn't clear for a long time. I mean, look at Herodotus.
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Edward Langley at least slightly
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Michael Bolin Edward, please tell me you don't actually believe that.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It means, God divided cosmic water (which exists btw) and made that division somehow canopic to the future land
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Matthew: the cosmos is a tabernacle! Duh!
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Edward Langley I was being slightly antagonistic, Michael.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^that's true too
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Matthew J. Peterson Cosmic water.
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Matthew J. Peterson That sounds awful modern and science-y to me.
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Edward Langley It's a good hypothesis for explaining where all the water for the flood came from, though.
October 2 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^http://www.nature.com/.../earth-has-water-older-than-the...
Earth has water older than the Sun
Not all water in the Solar System today could have formed here, researchers say.
NATURE.COM
October 2 at 2:57pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante doesnt need to me awful modern and science-y; I don't need modern science to make sense the claim
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but I will leave you all to your epistemologico-hermeneutical quandaries and wish the best to my Cistercian comrade in the meanwhile.
October 2 at 2:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I see, so Genesis is speaking of water already present in the solar nebula from which the earth formed?
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Daniel Lendman As I define it, a myth is an account of a reality that is someway transcends human experience; typically as an attempt to explain perennial truths about the world and man.
October 2 at 3:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Couldn't the water "above the firmament" just be the water in the atmosphere, such as clouds?
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Michael Bolin I think I now understand better why the myth that the Catholic Church is anti-science persists.
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't know. How would we figure that out, Edward Langley?
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, you're objection is hardly novel, BTW:
1. 2. Multi enim asserunt istarum aquarum naturam super sidereum coelum esse non posse, quod sic habeant ordinatum pondus suum, ut vel super terras fluitent, vel in aere terris proximo vaporaliter ferantur. Neque quisquam istos debet ita refellere, ut dicat secundum omnipotentiam Dei, cui cuncta possibilia sunt, oportere nos credere, aquas etiam tam graves, quam novimus atque sentimus, coelesti corpori, in quo sunt sidera, superfusas. Nunc enim quemadmodum Deus instituerit naturas rerum, secundum Scripturas eius nos convenit quaerere; non quid in eis vel ex eis ad miraculum potentiae suae velit operari. Neque enim si vellet Deus sub aqua oleum aliquando manere, non fieret; non ex eo tamen olei natura nobis esset incognita, quod ita facta sit, ut appetendo suum locum, etiam si subterfusa fuerit, perrumpat aquas, eisque se superpositam collocet. Nunc ergo quaerimus utrum conditor rerum, qui omnia in mensura et numero et pondere disposuit 2, non unum locum proprium ponderi aquarum circa terram tribuerit, sed et super coelum quod ultra limitem aeris circumfusum atque solidatum est.
October 2 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman When on high the heaven had not been named.
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Edward Langley from an "ad literam" interpretation of Genesis.
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Daniel Lendman Firm ground below had not been called by name,
October 2 at 3:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As modern history, or as literal meaning in the modern sense, it doesn't answer a whole hell of a lot of exactly what we usually expect those words to answer. But the question that Edward Langley asks and the sudden turn to science on the part of Jehoshaphat Escalante prove my point.
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Daniel Lendman When primodial Apsu, their better,
and Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all,
their waters mingled as a single bodY.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I didn't turn to science, Matt. The account is intelligible on its own. I mentioned modern findings because those are your measure here
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, my objection isn't modern: although our science does increasingly make the questions more obvious.
But anyone with a brain would have both objections or questions concerning the issue of the two lights and the water and land for thousands of years, unless they read it in a different way than the modern sense of "literal" and "historical" would have us read it.
October 2 at 3:05pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ...Half of her (Tiamat) he set up as a covering for heaven,
Pulled down the bar a posted guards.
He bade them allow not her waters to escape.
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Matthew J. Peterson Nope. Modern findings are not my measure.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And now must be off!
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Edward Langley On any account, the light isn't hard to explain.
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Matthew J. Peterson EnLIGHTen us.
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Matthew J. Peterson I do not think it is easy to understand what that means.
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Edward Langley It's just begging the question to presume that it refers the the light of the body we call the sun: the Big Bang, for example, probably created a whole ton of light.
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Matthew J. Peterson Either historically or literally.
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Edward Langley Otherwise, doesn't Augustine say that the first light was the creation of the Angels?
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Edward Langley Which makes sense, because an intellect is often referred to as a light both in and out of the Bible
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, it is interesting that the ancient Babylonians talked about waters above the heavens. If one things that Hebrew culture and writings might be influenced by the culture of the people of the city of Ur, then it is reasonable to suppose that waters above the heavens simply were an account for how the celestial bodies kept their place, yet were visible,
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Matthew J. Peterson The point is that the text itself is not a clear literal history, and you are helping me make it.
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Michael Beitia don't forget Utanipishtim, Daniel
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Daniel Lendman Oh, you mean Noah?
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Daniel Lendman
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Edward Langley Anyways, I've already made the point you're making: there are two accounts of creation. In one, man is first; in the other, man is last. Obviously, they both can't be temporal accounts. That doesn't cast doubt on the Fall, an event that only has one account in the text.
October 2 at 3:09pm · Like
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Edward Langley Unless you want to say that it casts doubt on the whole of Genesis (or the whole of whatver part was written by your favorite nameless scribe).
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Daniel Lendman I don't think anyone doubts the Fall, Edward.
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Michael Bolin "Above all, this text [Genesis 1] has a religious and theological importance. It doesn't contain significant elements from the point of view of the natural sciences. Research on the origin and development of the individual species in nature does not find in this description any definitive norm or positive contributions of substantial interest. Indeed, the theory of natural evolution, understood in a sense that does not exclude divine causality, is not in principle opposed to the truth about the creation of the visible world, as presented in the Book of Genesis." -- John Paul II, General Audience, January 29, 1986
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Daniel Lendman I just think that there was a lot more than went on that is only conveyed in terse, largely image based text that attempts to explain something that is beyond our normal experience.
October 2 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley We actually do get a dogma from that initial account, though, "In principio . . . " seems to clearly indicate that there was a beginning of time.
October 2 at 3:11pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Yes to the beginning of time principle.
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Michael Bolin "At the Easter Vigil, the journey along the paths of sacred Scripture begins with the account of creation. This is the liturgy’s way of telling us that the creation story is itself a prophecy. It is not information about the external processes by which the cosmos and man himself came into being. The Fathers of the Church were well aware of this. They did not interpret the story as an account of the process of the origins of things, but rather as a pointer towards the essential, towards the true beginning and end of our being." -- Benedict XVI, Homily at the Easter Vigil, 2011
October 2 at 3:12pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, my point was it doesn't cast doubt on the Fall as related.
October 2 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Bolin The shepherds of the Faith have been going on in this vein for some decades now. Are we going to listen to them?
October 2 at 3:16pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley In fact, I suppose it would strengthen the case that the Fall as related were historical: to be clear that at least one account of creation wasn't historical, the Bible has a second account with a different order. However, there is not a second account of the Fall, so the Bible would seem to intend that as a history.
(obviously this doesn't prove with necessity, but I think it's fairly strong dialectically)
October 2 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill ...therefore the fall is literal account? How was that a logical conclusion?
October 2 at 3:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley As I said, it's not necessary: but, the Bible just went out of the way to make sure we don't take something as historical, so it would be odd for the very next thing to be non-obviously non-historical.
October 2 at 3:20pm · Like
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Michael Bolin "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents." CCC 390
So, (1) a real sin was committed by our first parents, which really affects the whole human race, and (2) the language is figurative, so it probably isn't safe to make assumptions such as that a talking serpent was involved.
October 2 at 3:24pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Matthew's tactic so far has been to ridicule modern-literalistic accounts of Genesis 1, accounts which no one has been holding, in order to cast doubt on the Fall story. My argument is intended to undercut that by pointing out that the text itself gives us a strong reason to doubt such modern-literalistic accounts of Creation.
October 2 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley . . . without a corresponding reason to doubt the Fall story.
October 2 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin What does it mean to doubt the Fall story? Is considering the serpent to be a literary image doubting the story?
October 2 at 3:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley Here I'm speaking of them as histories, primarily with reference to monogenism vs. polygenism.
October 2 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin By the way, thanks to everyone for a fascinating discussion.
October 2 at 3:30pm · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley But even the serpents, I don't see why the event couldn't have played out as narrated, at least as far as the senses go.
October 2 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I would ask then, if the account of a serpent talking to Eve is non-figurative, what part of the story is figurative?
October 2 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I don't know
October 2 at 3:32pm · Like
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Edward Langley We might be arguing past each other, to some degree, because I'm intentionally avoiding commitment to a particular interpretation of the story: all I'm arguing is that we don't have sufficient evidence to know that it is non-historical.
October 2 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin So is the CCC's assertion that figurative language is used just speculation, then?
October 2 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And why is it a problem to suggest that a tale about a talking snake who is the craftiest of all creatures isn't even taken purely literally or historically by pre-moderns? They all say it's Satan. Not in the text.
So if this is pure and literal history, it means what it says. The talking snake is the craftiest. And all this Satan stuff is imported nonsense. MODERNISM.
My point is that even if there were a talking snake, the "possessed by the devil" bit isn't in the story itself. Never mind these various accounts.
So it's poor literal history if that's the intent, even if it is literal history. The intent, historical or not, is not to relay mere history in literal fashion, it seems to me.
October 2 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Matthew, I think we might understand the term "literal history" differently.
October 2 at 3:40pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley I don't think the necessity of interpretation or outside knowledge makes a history any less "literal".
October 2 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Lincoln was a tyrant - literal history
October 2 at 3:43pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Bolin Here's Ratzinger (In the Beginning): "The second movement involves the image of the serpent, which is taken from the Eastern fertility cults. These fertility religions were severe temptations for Israel for centuries, tempting it to abandon the covenant and to enter into the religious milieu of the time. Through the fertility cults the serpent speaks to the human being: Do not cling to this distant God, who has nothing to offer you. Do not cling to this covenant, which is so alien to you and which imposes so many restrictions on you. Plunge into the current of life, into its delirium and its ecstasy, and thus you will be able to partake of the reality of life and of its immortality. . . . It is with Israel's temptation in mind that Holy Scripture portrays Adam's temptation and, in general, the nature of temptation and sin in every age."
October 2 at 3:43pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Big Angry Daniel gets to the point of my question about Hesiod vs. Homer. "Perennial truths": the myth on that account describes something that really recurs perennially as something that happened once upon a time. But according to the CCC text quoted by Michael Bolin above that is _not_ what the account of the fall does: "a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man" i.e. something that really happened at a specific time not an ever-recurring feature of the world. I.e. it is "historical" in the sense defined by Samantha Cohoe: "stuff that actually happened."
October 2 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund Hence, Hesiod = myth (perennial features of the world described in a story) Homer = history (events meant to have happened at a specific time).
October 2 at 3:49pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley For a long time Troy was thought to be fictional by "historians", until they dug it up.
October 2 at 3:50pm · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund (And Daniel Lendman, we started calling you Big Angry again when you told someone that you would punch him if he continued his brand of trolling and that you were good at punching...)
October 2 at 3:51pm · Like · 8
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Edward Langley I forgot about that.
October 2 at 3:52pm · Like
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Pater Edmund
October 2 at 3:53pm · Like · 8
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Michael Bolin Pater Edmund: "Stuff that actually happened" is a decent account, but doesn't seem to me to answer many of the questions at hand. "The serpent deceived Eve" could be a thing that "actually happened" whether there was a talking snake or whether we read it as Ratzinger did.
October 2 at 3:59pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley It seems to me that there is a pretty strong reason to incline to there being some sensible experience associated with the Fall, though: important events relating to man's salvation always seem to be bound to sensible signs: whether circumcision, the Sacraments . . . even the rainbow, if that's the correct interpretation of that passage.
October 2 at 4:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley Not to mention the various angels that appealed to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
October 2 at 4:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley And it is extremely fitting for that to be so: sin involves an act of the will, will requires knowledge and our knowledge begins with the senses. So it would be most fitting for the very first sin to have a particular sensible experience as its principle.
October 2 at 4:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley (Since that sin is the type of all sin)
October 2 at 4:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger but Homer is poetry, based on an historical event to show sonething universal.
October 2 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Really? A fittingness argument?
October 2 at 4:21pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's a very respectable form of argument. Jeff.
October 2 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Unless you happen to be Descartes.
October 2 at 4:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The image of our lady of Guadalupe is another example of culturally specific symbology.... Unless you think she actually is crushing Aztec gods.
October 2 at 4:29pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Here's another interesting thing from Ratzinger's In the Beginning:
"In the Genesis story that we are considering, still a further characteristic of sin is described. Sin is not spoken of in general as an abstract possibility but as a deed, as the sin of a particular person, Adam, who stands at the origin of humankind and with whom the history of sin begins. The account tells us that sin begets sin, and that therefore all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refers to this state of affairs by the certainly misleading and imprecise term 'original sin.' What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd than to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal, and since God does not run a concentration camp, in which one’s relative are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love, who calls each one by name. What does original sin mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?
"Finding an answer to this requires nothing less than trying to understand the human person better. It must once again be stressed that no human being is closed in upon himself or herself and that no one can live of or for himself or herself alone. We receive our life not only at the moment of birth but every day from without--from others who are not ourselves but who nonetheless somehow pertain to us. Human beings have their selves not only in themselves but also outside of themselves: they live in those whom they love and in those who love them and to whom they are 'present.' Human beings are relational, and they possess their lives--themselves--only by way of relationship. I alone am not myself, but only in and with you am I myself. To be truly a human being means to be related in love, to be of and for. But sin means the damaging or the destruction of relationality. Sin is a rejection of relationality because it wants to make the human being a god. Sin is loss of relationship, disturbance of relationship, and therefore it is not restricted to the individual. When I destroy a relationship, then this event--sin--touches the other person involved in the relationship. Consequently sin is always an offense that touches others, that alters the world and damages it. To the extent that this is true, when the network of human relationships is damaged from the very beginning, then every human being enters into a world that is marked by relational damage. At the very moment that a person begins human existence, which is a good, he or she is confronted by a sin-damaged world. Each of us enters into a situation in which relationality has been hurt. Consequently each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships and does not engage in them as he or she ought. Sin pursues the human being, and he or she capitulates to it."
October 2 at 4:36pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger ^ exactly. Where rejecting a definite act that is the original sin leads. Benedict became considerably more traditional as pope. He held some iffy opinions earlier.
October 2 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, I suppose one can always play the "Sure, but Ratzinger used to be a [material] heretic before becoming pope" card.
October 2 at 4:49pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill John, I don't think you read that the same way I did.
October 2 at 4:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia can we have a conversation evolve farther than Genesis?
Dogma: Original sin is inherited from Adam
next.
October 2 at 4:55pm · Like · 2
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Adam Woodward This is astonishing! This thread has been going for almost two months! Bravo, Mr. Peterson, you must have very interesting friends (or a lot of trolls).
October 2 at 5:10pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Let's talk about Jonah: was he real or not?
October 2 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pater, I believe the "trolling" that provoked that response involved a man insulting a woman in crass and vulgar fashion. Being the sexist that I am,I think that it is wrong to insult anyone, but it is especially wrong to insult women, especially in the way that was done. I would have punched, and I would have been just in doing so.
October 2 at 5:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Adam: lots of trolls
October 2 at 5:21pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Jonah is a great example of how God can use an imperfect instrument.
October 2 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco How should we interpret the book of Jonah?
October 2 at 5:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I want to know if he really was swallowed
October 2 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia as historical. and miraculous vis-a-vis the whale
October 2 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco But this is scandalous to modern science.
October 2 at 5:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Elliot Milco So only idiots could believe it.
October 2 at 5:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia It seems clear that the 3 days in the whale are used to understand the time our Lord spent in the tomb. But God can make real (if miraculous) events prefigure his future plans
October 2 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco Also have you heard about how all of the plagues have scientific explanations?
October 2 at 5:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia thankfully, no.
October 2 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the incarnation is such a well documented event, from Roman Historians, Josephus, and the evangelists. and that is clearly an example of God "inrupting" into the history of men
October 2 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger good thing we had those fellows on the scene to diagnose the plagues or we would still be idiots.
October 2 at 5:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we may still be idiots.
the LITERAL day in Genesis, to my mind, is not a LITERAL 24 hours
October 2 at 5:29pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ^ maybe. I just wasn't there. And I do waaaay too much thinking for myself or Caleb would likely say. @ Beitia.
October 2 at 5:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, I have idea what you mean. But that's okay, it is errand running time anyhow.
October 2 at 5:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It would seem that God does not exist, for he is defined as a perfect Being, and the creator of everything.
October 2 at 6:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The creation of everything is the greatest achievement conceivable, and the merit of an achievement is decided both by its intrinsic quality and by the ability of its creator.
October 2 at 6:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The greater the disability of the creator, the greater the achievement.
October 2 at 6:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The greatest conceivable disability for a creator is non-existence.
October 2 at 6:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Therefore if we claim that everything is the creation of an existent creator, we can conceive of a greater being, that is, a being that created everything while not existing.
October 2 at 6:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Therefore God does not exist.
October 2 at 6:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley Is there someone here I can't see?
October 2 at 6:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That is my spurious ontological proof for the non-existence of God.
October 2 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No Edward I was just typing it out bit by bit. Some comment padding perhaps
October 2 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, just some of the stuff above (before you) looks like there might be a gap to respond to some blocked person.
October 2 at 6:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The only people I see just above me are Elliot, Michael and John.
October 2 at 6:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Thats all I see.
October 2 at 6:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Has Scott returned since I rode him out on a rail?
October 2 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger no
October 2 at 6:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Glory glory hallelujah
October 2 at 6:34pm · Like
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Max Summe Why'd you push Scott out? He was tNET's troll. We need a troll so tNET doesn't lose velocity....
October 2 at 6:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict TNET will be fine. That boil needed to be lanced
October 2 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I don't know why John blocked me, I don't even remember him having arguments to run out of.
October 2 at 6:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict TNET is sometimes more like a soap opera than we would care to admit. Betrayal, passion, petty squabbles, people getting written out of wills, pregnancies and amnesia - you name it we got it
October 2 at 6:37pm · Like
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Max Summe tNET's eternal lancing of the Boil is like Goethe's eternal chasing of the Feminine: It is never meant to be completed.
October 2 at 6:37pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Scott will be back. I hope.
October 2 at 6:38pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict All desires properly ordered are teleological. Meant to be completed. Besides this troll hide is so soft
October 2 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If Scott is a boil...well, tNET sprang forth from him...
October 2 at 6:39pm · Edited · Like
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Max Summe Would tNET then be.... Athena?
October 2 at 6:39pm · Like
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Isak Benedict TNET = eternal boil pus
October 2 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe That would make sense except for tNET shares in the divine, Isak Benedict - in that it never ends. So we cannot liken it to pus
October 2 at 6:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman As I recall, the shift in nuance from Genesis being literal to being allegorical was fairly recent.
October 2 at 6:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The spelling of that word is rather important Max, considering we are using the language of "springing forth from."
October 2 at 6:41pm · Like
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John Ashman You know, once we invented carbon dating.
October 2 at 6:41pm · Like
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Thomas Hall So, I stop by to look around the place, and y'all are lancing boils and disinheriting trolls. In other words, nothing has changed.
October 2 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did you like my proof for God's non-existence John?
October 2 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe In perfect activity, tNET remains unchanging.
October 2 at 6:42pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Just keeping the place tidy for you Thomas. Would you care for some troll fingers?
October 2 at 6:42pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman If you meant me, I get the drift, but the connections were extremely loose.
October 2 at 6:43pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Thomas Aquinas has elements of allegorical interpretation of his understanding of Genesis. Cf. De potentia q.3, a.18-19, q.4, a.1, ST Ia, q.66, a.1--in which he cites Augustine as having similar interpretations.
October 2 at 6:43pm · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall TNET is the Pure Act of Threadness, yes that's true.
October 2 at 6:43pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman God is perfect. Everything he does is perfect. Man is not perfect. God really messed up on that. So he must not exist.
October 2 at 6:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's meant to be funny. Obviously it cannot be logically postulated that a disability or a handicap is something that makes a creator greater per se. And creating something while not existing is not to have a disability; it is to be an impossibility.
October 2 at 6:46pm · Like
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Thomas Hall 'Gods don't make mistakes! Although, I sometimes think it would be nice to be able to carry a tune.' There's your Obscure Reference Of The Day.
October 2 at 6:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sometimes I think tNET might lag without me. Then I go away for a while, and it doesn't. Good job, tNET.
October 2 at 7:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Or have a sense of humor.
October 2 at 7:08pm · Like
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John Ashman Maybe life is simply his experiment in randomness.
October 2 at 7:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict What do you think happens when we die John?
October 2 at 7:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "'You have to live with your mind your whole life.’ You build your mind, so make it into something you want to live with. Nobody has ever said anything more valuable to me.”
October 2 at 7:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just played this for my son (16mos), and it enthralled him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh6WZOgBHQg
Dmitri Hvorostovsky - Iago's "Credo"
Giuseppe Verdi: Otello Iago's aria Credo in un dio crudel Moscow, December 16, 2008
YOUTUBE.COM
October 2 at 7:22pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley (I think it was probably the faces)
October 2 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've never seen him so interested in something.
October 2 at 7:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Angels differ in form, since they lack matter. In heaven, without bodies how does man differ? (Equivocally?/accidentally?). I don't recall what thomastotle said.
October 2 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley according to he soul's order to matter.
October 2 at 7:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley *the
October 2 at 7:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill But without matter
October 2 at 7:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Or what "order to" may mean.
October 2 at 7:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley yeah, the whole story is more complicated.
October 2 at 7:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill 16mos?!? Just call him 1, until he turns 2
October 2 at 7:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've never quite understood where people draw the line, In my experience, up until 18mos, people go with months and sometime around then they switch to years.
October 2 at 7:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (8 siblings . . .)
October 2 at 7:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill To much precision.
October 2 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I dunno, one month is quite a high fraction of his life . . .
October 2 at 7:33pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Generally folks go by months until somewhere between 13 months (at the culmination of the extrauterine spring) and 18 months (because it is weird to say 19 months or 20 months) at which point they say "almost two."
October 2 at 7:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I only give my childrens' ages precisely in days. lazy jerks
October 2 at 7:36pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Not hours? What a half-assed father
October 2 at 7:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia seconds, but only if the company has
#childagegnosis
October 2 at 7:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Isak Benedict I intend to be so scrupulous about giving the precise ages of my children that I can never actually do it, because halfway through the words coming out of my mouth they will have already grown older.
October 2 at 7:38pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I measure my childs age in 1/28ths of the lunar cycle.
October 2 at 7:38pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia "inside there's a clock that you win if you can guess its age"
October 2 at 7:38pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia my children as a fraction of the total age of the universe, measured in Planck time.
October 2 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley In terms of the time it takes for the universe to double in volume.
October 2 at 7:40pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I give my childrens' ages only in terms of the half-life of carbon 14
October 2 at 7:41pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I will give their ages in cubits
October 2 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ha, C-14 isn't the primum mobile.
October 2 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that is how I tell their height, Isak, and their weight in stones
October 2 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (actually, little bit of trivia, I think Lee Smolin suggested that the expansion of the universe could be used for the definition of absolute time)
October 2 at 7:43pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Serious physicist, rediscovering primum mobile.
October 2 at 7:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if I'm dealing with the rabble, the ages are in fortnights.
October 2 at 7:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I have that book, Edward, as you know, and thought the same thing.
October 2 at 7:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't have the book . . . but one of my professors sent gave me a scan of part of it.
October 2 at 7:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia alright alright enough silliness, time for an evening constitutional with the better half.....
October 2 at 7:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't make TNET jealous.
October 2 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer 28,185. 3^10 to go.
October 2 at 7:52pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Has tNET read Lilith? It's weird, right?
October 2 at 8:00pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Mental lapse, carry on!
October 2 at 8:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley George MacD's? I've started it.
October 2 at 8:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, wait, it's night. Literature for day. I'll come back tomorrow.
October 2 at 8:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No spoilers, don't worry.
October 2 at 8:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wait, so you aren't reading it Joel HF?
October 2 at 8:09pm · Like
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Joel HF Lilith? No not at the moment. I thought you were referring to something else.
October 2 at 8:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe what? Lila?
October 2 at 8:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I've got to finish this Tolstoy biography still.
October 2 at 8:12pm · Like
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Joel HF That's it. Can't wait for that.
October 2 at 8:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe October 7th! Mine's pre-ordered!
October 2 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Let us be very clear, since I have seen enough bullshit that should send Catholics of yesteryear to tears.
Genesis is not "figurative" as opposed to "literal" That is not even how those terms are used in Catholic theology. The literal sense is either proper or improper, i.e. metaphorical
We are all agreed that metaphors are often used in scripture, such as, e.g., in descriptions of God being angry, etc
The Church has taught, repeatedly, that the literal sense of Genesis is historical, which means that while metaphor may be included here and there (God getting angry/repenting over Sodom), it does properly refer to real persons, events and deeds, even if not with scientifically precise ways, I do not deny Daniel Lendman's point hat things like the order in which events are portrayed may differ. Sure they can. And is the serpent an actual snake Satan has possessed, or is it a metaphor for the person of Satan tempting the very real Eve in the garden? Could be either.
But could the garden be a metaphor for this, and Adam and Eve a metaphor of a larger group, and the fall a metaphor of something else...no. That is heretical. I reject that with the Church.
Bolin wants to claim that in principle science can contradict the faith. I want to claim science in principle cannot even show whether polygenism or monogenism is true with regard to truly human parents. John Paul II said as much as well. But we are a threat, apparently, to young souls. If science could prove it, in principle, it would prove monogenism. This is no different than arguing whether science can show the world had a beginning in time. If you argue there is a possibility of it showing the world eternal, well you are the enemy of young souls then.
I severely dislike calling any of the real history a myth. But I understand Daniel Lendman is not opposing myth to true history. So bracket that. at what point does holding that Genesis relays real history get turned into "history means anything that conveys some truth" rather than acttual history?"
For a bunch of people who claim to be followers of St. Thomas, I am shocked. The very historicity of the persons and evens is central to his understanding of scripture, to the point that even where there is legitimate debate (e.g. whether Job was a real person) Aquinas always sides with granting scripture to be a true historical account, unless it can be proved otherwise. Even while adopting aspects of Augustines treatment of the 7 days, he still prefers a distinction of 7 actual days e.g.,.
Heck, the way scripture relates things I extremely important. Holy Innocents? Aquinas rejects a theory on how they are martyrs, that would make his answer easier and readily consonant with his views in general, squarely because scripture doesn't speak that way. I frankly find some of what is insinuated here to be pernicious in the etreme
October 2 at 8:15pm · Unlike · 7
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Joshua Kenz And for the sake of our Christendom brethren and their love of symbolic theology, some binding "in conscience" decisions of Holy Mother the Church.
Dubium I.: Utrum varia systemata exegetica, quae ad excludendum sensum litteralem historicum trium priorum capitum libri Geneseos excogitata et scientiae fuco propugnata sunt, solido fundamento fulciantur? Resp.: Negative.
Dubium II.: Utrum, non obstantibus indole et forma historica libri Geneseos, peculiari trium priorum capitum inter se et cum sequentibus capitibus nexu, multiplici testimonio Scripturarum tum Veteris tum Novi Testamenti, unanimi fere sanctorum Patrum sententia ac traditionali sensu, quem, ab Israelitico etiam populo transmissum, semper tenuit Ecclesia, doceri possit: praedicta tria capita Geneseos continere non rerum vere gestarum narrationes, quae scilicet obiectivae realitati et historicae veritati respondeant; sed vel fabulosa ex veterum populorum mythologiis et cosmogoniis deprompta et ab auctore sacro, expurgato quovis polytheismi errore, doctrinae monotheisticae accomodata; vel allegorias et symbola, fundamento obiectivae realitatis destituta, sub historiae specie ad religiosas et philosophicas veritates inculcandas proposita, vel tandem legendas ex parte historicas et ex parte fictitias ad animorum instructionem et aedificationem libere compositas? Resp.: Negative ad utramque partem.
Dubium III.: Utrum speciatim sensus litteralis historicus vocari in dubium possit, ubi agitur de factis in eisdem capitibus enarratis, quae christianae religionis fundamenta attingunt: uti sunt, inter cetera, rerum universarum creatio a Deo facta in initio temporis; peculiaris creatio hominis ; formatio primae mulieris ex primo homine; generis humani unitas, originalis protoparentum felicitas in statu iustitiae, integritatis et immortalitatis, praeceptum a Deo homini datum ad eius obedientiam probandam; divini praecepti, diabolo sub serpentis specie suasore, transgressio; protoparentum deiectio ab illo primaevo innocentiae statu; nec non Reparatoris futuri promissio? Resp.: Negative.
Dubium IV.: Utrum in interpretandis illis horum capitum locis, quos Patres et Doctores diverso modo intellexerunt, quin certi quippiam definitique tradiderint, liceat salvo Ecclesiae iudicio servataque fidei analogia, eam, quam quisque prudenter probaverit, sequi tuerique sententiam? Resp.: Affirmative.
Dubium V.: Utrum omnia et singula, verba videlicet et phrases, quae in praedictis capitibus occurrunt, semper et necessario accipienda sint sensu proprio, ita ut ab eo discedere numquam liceat, etiam cum locutiones ipsae manifesto appareant improprie, seu metaphorice vel anthropomorphice usurpatae, et sensum proprium vel ratio tenere prohibeat vel necessitas cogat dimittere? Resp.: Negative.
Dubium VI.: Utrum, praesupposito litterali et historico sensu, nonnullorum locorum eorundem capitum interpretatio allegorica et prophetica, praefulgente sanctorum Patrum et Ecclesiae ipsius exemplo, adhiberi sapienter et utiliter possit? Resp.: Affirmative.
Dubium VII.: Utrum, cum in conscribendo primo Geneseos capite non fuerit sacri auctoris mens intimam adspectabilium rerum constitutionem ordinemque creationis completum scientifico more docere, sed potius suae genti tradere notitiam popularem, prout communis sermo per ea ferebat tempora, sensibus et captui hominum accommodatam, sit in horum interpretatione adamussim semperque investiganda scientifici sermonis proprietas? Resp.: Negative.
Dubium VIII.: Utrum in illa sex dierum denominatione atque distinctione, de quibus in Geneseos capite primo, sumi possit vox Yôm (dies) sive sensu proprio pro die naturali, sive sensu improprio pro quodam temporis spatio, deque huiusmodi quaestione libere inter exegetas disceptare liceat? Resp.: Affirmative.
There goes it being myth (Pontifical Biblical Commission, when it was still magisterial June 30, 1909) Similar answer about the "first eleven chapters"
October 2 at 8:22pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Well. I think I have to digest what just happened. And translate some Latin.
October 2 at 8:27pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Latin text dumps are the best.
October 2 at 8:27pm · Unlike · 10
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Joshua Kenz I will post the English later. For John Boyer
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
Cum vero de alia coniecturali opinione agitur, videlicet de polygenismo, quem vocant, tum Ecclesiae filii eiusmodi libertate minime fruuntur. Non enim christifideles eam sententiam amplecti possunt, quam qui retinent asseverant vel post Adam hisce in terris veros homines exstitisse, qui non ab eodem prouti omnium protoparente, naturali generatione originem duxerint, vel Adam significare multitudinem quamdam protoparentum; cum nequaquam appareat quomodo huiusmodi sententia componi queat cum iis quae fontes revelatae veritatis et acta Magisterii Ecclesiae proponunt de peccato originali quod procedit ex peccato vere commisso ab uno Adamo, quodque generatione in omnes transfusum, inest unicuique proprium (cfr. Rom. 5, 12- 19; Conc. Trid. sess. V, can. 1-4).
Note, that the pope is not merely saying "it is hard to see how original sin reconciles with polygenism" He is saying that it is our faith that one individual, Adam, existed and sinned and propagated through generation original sin, and how can polygenism be reconciled with that historical fact?
If you deny that, you are a heretic. Bolin, mind boggingly, said we don't know how original sin is propagated. That is not true. And either he knows better, or he is wonderfully incompetent here. Some of the Canons cited by the Holy Father
1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.
2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
So there was an individual Adam and he sinned and through generation we all sin in him. Which unless he was truly head of the human race makes no sense....
October 2 at 8:32pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Question I: Whether the various exegetical systems which have been proposed to exclude the literal historical sense of the three first chapters of the Book of Genesis, and have been defended by the pretense of science, are sustained by a solid foundation? -- Reply: In the negative.
Question II: Whether, when the nature and historical form of the Book of Genesis does not oppose, because of the peculiar connections of the three first chapters with each other and with the following chapters, because of the manifold testimony of the Old and New Testaments; because of the almost unanimous opinion of the Holy Fathers, and because of the traditional sense which, transmitted from the Israelite people, the Church always held, it can be taught that the three aforesaid chapters of Genesis do not contain the stories of events which really happened, that is, which correspond with objective reality and historical truth; but are either accounts celebrated in fable drawn from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and adapted by a holy writer to monotheistic doctrine, after expurgating any error of polytheism; or allegories and symbols, devoid of a basis of objective reality, set forth under the guise of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or, finally, legends, historical in part and fictitious in part, composed freely for the instruction and edification of souls? -- Reply: In the negative to both parts.
Question III: Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into question, where it is a matter of facts related in the same chapters, which pertain to the foundation of the Christian religion; for example, among others, the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the oneness of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given to man by God to prove his obedience; the transgression of the divine command through the devil's persuasion under the guise of a serpent; the casting of our first parents out of that first state of innocence; and also the promise of a future restorer? -- Reply: In the negative.
Question IV: Whether in interpreting those passages of these chapters, which the Fathers and Doctors have understood differently, but concerning which they have not taught anything certain and definite, it is permitted, while preserving the judgment of the Church and keeping the analogy of faith, to follow and defend that opinion which everyone has wisely approved? -- Reply: In the affirmative.
Question V: Whether all and everything, namely, words and phrases which occur in the aforementioned chapters, are always and necessarily to be accepted in a special sense, so that there may be no deviation from this, even when the expressions themselves manifestly appear to have been taken improperly, or metaphorically or anthropomorphically, and either reason prohibits holding the proper sense, or necessity forces its abandonment? -- Reply: In the negative.
Question VI: Whether, presupposing the literal and historical sense, the allegorical and prophetical interpretation of some passages of the same chapters, with the example of the Holy Fathers and the Church herself showing the way, can be wisely and profitably applied? -- Reply: In the affirmative.
Question VII: Whether, since in writing the first chapter of Genesis it was not the mind of the sacred author to teach in a scientific manner the detailed constitution of visible things and the complete order of creation, but rather to give his people a popular notion, according as the common speech of the times went, accommodated to the understanding and capacity of men, the propriety of scientific language is to be investigated exactly and always in the interpretation of these? -- Reply: In the negative.
Question VIII: Whether in that designation and distinction of six days, with which the account of the first chapter of Genesis deals, the word (dies) can be assumed either in its proper sense as a natural day, or in the improper sense of a certain space of time; and whether with regard to such a question there can be free disagreement among exegetes? -- Reply: In the affirmative.
October 2 at 8:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz English for the masses ^
October 2 at 8:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, Mr. Kenz, pandering to the masses again with your vernacular translation.
October 2 at 8:46pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz WRT Matthew J. Peterson's points (in general, not in specific details) Literal in the above texts I read as being literal in the way used in Catholic texts, as in the letters actually refers to history, not in the way the term is always used now, whether the letter is "figurative or literal" So maybe the literal historical sense of a serpent tempting Eve, is simply that Satan tempted Eve, and the serpent signifies Satan "improperly" to use Aquinas' terms
But I do think a, even at time naïve, "hyper literalism" is a better starting point than trying to make everything a figure. The presumption should be on showing that it is a figure, no? Sometimes easy (God repented) sometimes more debated (God walking in the garden in Adam).
October 2 at 8:52pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley I was wondering how long it'd take you to show up, Joshua.
October 2 at 9:04pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Joshua Kenz, all of your arguments, including your interpretation of PBC 1909, have already surfaced and been refuted. So let me ask you about a point you did not address. Above, I quoted a passage from Ratzinger's In the Beginning in which he proposes a "relational" account of original sin, in which account physical generation is not required for propagation. Is this account heretical?
October 2 at 9:06pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Bolin, I am not arguing with you. I am also not going to dissect Ratzinger's early writings. He did make errors. What he meant here, I don't know, but it is irrelevant. Trent is clear, as is Pius XII. It is not permitted....
You assert my "interpretation" has been refuted. What interpretation? I just posted the text.
I am sorry, I stand by everything I said, and condemn as heresy what I called heresy. I am not getting into one of these debates like I had with Louis and his arguments that atheists have actual faith and adultery is not always wrong. (or worse that Aquinas agreed with him despite saying the exact opposite)
The Church is very clear on certain central points. Even Ratzinger's account speaks of the individual Adam, the originator of the human race, etc.
I don't necessarily read him the way you do. But if it denies that original sins is passed down, generation to generaton, then yes it is heretical. I don't think it does...but as I said, irrelevant. Ratzinger made mistakes elsewhere (petrine authority for one). Whether this is one of those times or not would be all such a debate over his meaning could answer, since the Catholic faith on this point is clear.
I am sorry I don't bow before the Bolin intellect on such questions. I don't have the #bolingnosis I do know what the Church has said, and I merely presented that. And I know what scripture says. And I know that you are no expert on modern science, any more than I or John Paul II who said the same are, and the experts I have encountered have been far less confident in this area.
October 2 at 9:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And while I could not read every comment above in detail, I did skim all of them since the time of my last post. You offered no refutations whatsoever. Don't try pulling a fast one like that. You posted Ratzinger. Fine. I posted the CHURCH.
October 2 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz If I did read his relational account as saying that is all original sin is, and not a deprivation of original just inherited by generation, it would be Pelagian...essentially the same as their position that original sin is not ontological, but by moral example, a snowball effect. I don't read it that way, especially since Ratzinger has a relational account of the human person himself, so damage in his relationality is ontological for him.
I don't agree with that account of the person, and so neither this account of original sin. But you are trying to pull a fast one, text dumping from a theologian who is operating under a very different set of assumptions and terminology, without alluding to that fact.
October 2 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Joshua, figures don't exist without the literal. So IMHO throwing out the literal meaning also throws out the figurative.
But again, the "hyper-literal" - as you put it - has never been the absolute approach of the fathers of the church. The dogma of the propagation of original sin mentions Adam as the first parent. The canons of Trent to not mention Eve, strangely.
October 2 at 9:21pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Nor did I claim they were...only that as a starting assumption, you are safer assuming proper signification of a passage then assuming metaphorical signification more often than not. I.e. of the two tendencies, one to exaggerate the historical character and the other to downplay it, the former is a better side to err on.
Of course on many points we must admit metaphorical language, and on many points there is legitimate debate (even some of the Fathers wondered about the extent of the flood).
October 2 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think, following St. Augustine, that there is good reason to disagree with a literal 24 hour interpretation of the creation in Genesis. I don't think that it works the same for Adam and original sin. The canons of Trent are very clear on that (although they only mention Adam and not Eve, which I suppose could leave a crack open for polygenesis, so long as Adam is the father of all?)
October 2 at 9:33pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Joshua, you posted the 1909 PBC text with the seeming intention to imply that it rules out certain opinions expressed earlier in this thread. That implication was indeed refuted earlier.
Your general approach to these questions suggests that you mistake your own interpretation of the Church's teachings for the teachings themselves. It does no good to claim, for example, "Trent teaches X" when the Church's own shepherds have made clear in the past half-century that the Church does not intend to teach X. Among other things, they have made it clear that polygenism has not been definitively ruled out, and that the scriptural accounts of creation do not intend to give us an account of the origins of the cosmos and of man, and that nor do they exclude the contemporary scientific account of these things in its broad strokes and even in its details.
Furthermore, your personal comments are uncalled for. You have no idea whether or not I am an expert on modern science, nor do you know whether I know more or less than you do about it. Since I do not know what you know about modern science, I do not know this either, but unlike you I am not arrogant enough to claim to know what I do not know.
I have already stated that I do not know whether polygenism is true. Should the Church in the future declare it false, I will accept that judgment. What will be your response should she explicitly declare it permissible?
October 2 at 9:40pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin I should add that that has basically already happened, since when the head of the CDF signed off on the publication of the ITC document "Communion and Stewardship," that action signified that the contents represent, at a minimum, permissible Catholic opinion.
October 2 at 9:44pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Micheal, Kenz knows it all. Haven't you realized that yet? Hence, the reason why he has blocked both Jeff and I. Just pat him on the head and say, good boy. There there.
October 2 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill And he only blocked me because I'm married to Jeff
October 2 at 9:55pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Well, maybe because I troll a bit.
October 2 at 9:56pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Just a bit? Though I guess it's the trolls that keeps this alive...
October 2 at 10:23pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz That won't happen, because she has already declared it impermissible
If it did, it would disprove the Catholic faith, since it is modernist heresy to understand dogmas otherwise than they were understood at the time and always.
October 2 at 10:28pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Liz: That is quickly becoming clear. It is one thing when the non-Catholics on this thread don't accept the authority of the Church, and quite another when self-professed Catholics do so. And to make oneself the final interpreter of the Church's teaching is in fact to reject that teaching.
October 2 at 10:28pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin Right, Joshua, because you know better than St. John Paul II and Ratzinger how to interpret the past teachings of the Church.
October 2 at 10:30pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Unfortunately, I agree Michael. I do think he is young though. I just don't understand blocking someone who has a difference of opinion. Goes back immaturity, IMO. Lauren, how else to break up the monotony?
October 2 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Michael Beitia, wouldn't Trent not mention Eve for the reason that Adam held a unique place as head of the human race..if Adam had not sinne, even though Eve had the human race would have have fallen.
October 2 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin "If it did, it would disprove the Catholic faith, since it is modernist heresy to understand dogmas otherwise than they were understood at the time and always."
So, it seems I must choose between the magisterium of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI and the magisterium of Joshua Kenz. Decisions, decisions.
October 2 at 10:33pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz No Bolin. Communion and Stewardship does not undo Humani generis, and neither does John Paul II who quotes it with approval.
"For Adam, the first man, was a type of him who was to come, Christ the Lord. "
Yes it does talk about a common genetic lineage in a "a humanoid population" And then goes on to quote John Paul II about the ontological leap, " Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms."
In short, the document, which is not magisterial but was "signed off on" as you say, no where really addresses the question of polygenism with respect to the human person, and in affirming Adam as a type, strongly implies the traditional orthodoxy of all descending from Adam and his very real historical existence.
He would not be a type if he did not exist. I am not setting myself up as the authority here. You are getting approved by two people blocked by me who cannot even see what I am saying (blocked over accusing me of arguing the opposite of what I argued).
The document
October 2 at 10:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, you must choose between your idiosyncratic reading of Ratzinger, which you suddenly transmute into the magisterium of Benedict XVI, despite the writings being well before his papacy, and the traditional understanding of the dogma.
If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.
J'accuse.
October 2 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz In short, I am not rejecting anything of the magisterium. I am rejecting the bullshit you claim is found in it when in fact it is not.
October 2 at 10:42pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia it is hard to argue with this:
2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
October 2 at 10:43pm · Like · 9
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Michael Bolin When discussing the ontological leap (which pertains to the doctrine of the immediate creation of the human soul), Communion and Stewardship says this: "Catholic theology affirms that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention." The manifest intention of that parenthetical is to leave room for polygenism. I am fairly confident that you will deny this, but that does not make it any less manifest.
I am not referring to the passage from In the Beginning when I speak of the magisterium of Benedict XVI, but to many other things, some of which were cited earlier, such as Easter Vigil 2011 homily.
"If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema."
Indeed, and well put. You will note that it does not say, "If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which Joshua Kenz has understood and understands: let him be anathema."
If you do not even have the humility to say that you would change your opinion should the Church reject it, but instead feel the need to say that if the Church rejected your opinion it would disprove the Catholic faith, I think we're done here.
October 2 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I am not presenting an opinion though, no more than I would be presenting an opinion if I said that faith was necessary for salvation, or that God is Triune. If, per impossibile, the Church were to declare one of those false, it would disprove the Catholic Faith. The Church holds, with St. Paul, that from one man sin entered the world. I am not someone who will say that if the pope calls black white, then it is white. I am not capable, since I am not Hegelian, of turning propositions inside out as you apparently are.
FWIW, I am absolutely sure, because of the Faith, that such contradiction will not nay could not happen
Humility has nothing to do with my confidence in my faith.
October 2 at 10:53pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Or rather I should say, arrogance has nothing to do with it. If you knew my history, you would know that the only real manifestation of humility in me was in accepting the Faith.
October 2 at 10:57pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia is anyone denying that "by one man sin entered into the world.."?
October 2 at 10:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Trolln' ain't easy.
October 2 at 11:02pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Apparently some people think one man can mean many men....
October 2 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Seriously, Jeffie, does anyone deny that dogmatic statement?
October 2 at 11:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joshua, the "polygenesis" refers to many eves not many adams
October 2 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz So Adam just got around?
October 2 at 11:03pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin I don't believe anyone has denied that, Michael, and of course it is indifferent to the question of polygenism.
October 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Even Eve took her descent in some way from Adam.
October 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No it is not
October 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Michael Bolin, you aren't making your case very strongly
October 2 at 11:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It is completely relevant. Either we descended from Adam and Eve or we did not. Only Adam, qua head of the race, could sin in a way in which humanity could fall in him
October 2 at 11:05pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia the burden of proof is on you to say how polygenesis doesn't effect the dogmatic statement above
October 2 at 11:05pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz And you are right, I don't read the Communion and Stewardship the way you did. Because it doesn't say what you want it to say. The moment of emergence of the human person, whether in individuals or populations, is not discernible to empiricism. That is not saying anything about polygenism. And the fact remains that they could nothold Adam as a type if Adam had not existed!
October 2 at 11:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz You can make Adam a "common ancestor" with many Eves...genetic drift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve...
But you would still have the difficulty in explaining how that is not incidental to the human race as a unity.
October 2 at 11:10pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Just random question... If we want more than just Adam and Eve at the beginning, why not also after the flood?
October 2 at 11:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Michael: If there were many human beings, why would that mean that sin did not enter the world through one of them?
October 2 at 11:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Because the human race does not fall then
October 2 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Bolin, what!?
October 2 at 11:12pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick How would it work?
October 2 at 11:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Remember I can't read Kenz. So I only see Bolin and you. The dogmatic statement is to the universality of the sin by Adam. I haven't seen any statements that say it was otherwise.
October 2 at 11:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia look up ^^^^
October 2 at 11:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the universality of the sin of Adam is because he is the "first parent"
October 2 at 11:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Kenz, unblock Jeff... he'll behave
October 2 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Qua rationality
October 2 at 11:15pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick So you'd have to change what it would mean for someone to be a parent then?
October 2 at 11:15pm · Like
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Liz Neill The flood is not just two people, Lauren
October 2 at 11:19pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin The reason for the confusion about original sin is that people are assuming that original sin is propagated (only) by biological generation. But as I have pointed out before, that is not a dogmatic teaching.
October 2 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia then what the hell does "parent" mean?
October 2 at 11:16pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Theory's are ok...
October 2 at 11:16pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick How else would it be propagated and how would that be fitting?
October 2 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick (The flood isn't just two, it's what 8? Is that such a huge difference for populating the whole world and establishing cities?)
October 2 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I don't have a personal theory about that. I quoted one offered by Ratzinger earlier, which Joshua attempted to dodge because he didn't want to call Ratzinger a heretic.
October 2 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Theories do have to show why they are fitting and how they don't contradict what we know though.
October 2 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what is the point of calling Adam, "First Parent" if it doesn't refer to generation?
October 2 at 11:18pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill I agree Lauren, still trying to catch up
October 2 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin The fact is that we know very little about the origins of the human race, and we have to accept that. Making things up doesn't mean they're true.
October 2 at 11:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Cough...prima pars q. 100 a. 2.... cough
But I guess Aquinas was stoopid in holding with every Catholic theologian of the time and all the Fathers, that Adam was unique. And indeed Pius X was stoopid for thinking that made such teaching infallible.. forget the sensus fidelium, the sensus theologicorum and the sensus Patrium. And Trent was stoopid for making us take an oath that said we would never understand scripture against the sensus Patrium.
October 2 at 11:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I should really read the Illiad... And it's always nice when people repeat things especially on this thread since it goes so fast, saying it's already been said doesn't help. Everything has been said here...
October 2 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Let's hold off on the flood for a moment and whether it was global, earlier today we resolved by consensus that it wasn't.
Focusing just on the human pool at "the rational moment" the question is whether generation is required as child or as race with Adam as the first of our species.
October 2 at 11:19pm · Like
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Michael Bolin About the propagation of original sin, Benedict XVI said this: "We may guess, not explain; nor may we recount it as one fact beside another, because it is a deeper reality. It remains a mystery of darkness, of night." Which is exactly right.
October 2 at 11:20pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick We are a democracy now?
October 2 at 11:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia appeal to ignorance isn't an argument
October 2 at 11:20pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Bolin, I am willing to call a spade a spade. Ratzinger's account must be read in light of his view that human person is a relational being. Stop this nonsense.
October 2 at 11:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin And by that you mean that his opinions about original sin are heretical?
October 2 at 11:21pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, I mean you are misreading him
October 2 at 11:21pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Couldn't that refer to just passing on of sin from Adam to all men through generation? That's a big mystery! How is sin carried from one to the other. Weirdly, somehow I passed it onto my daughter.
October 2 at 11:22pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill I can't go back 10000 comments. . Just can't. Homeschooling takes up a bit of the day.
October 2 at 11:22pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz I said what I said clearly enough before. Bolin doesn't seem to want to actually engage what I said...he prefers rhetoric
October 2 at 11:22pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Life takes up a bit of the day Liz
October 2 at 11:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joshua, until you tell me that you will admit to being wrong if the Church explicitly teaches the permissibility of polygenism, I'm done arguing with you.
October 2 at 11:23pm · Like
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Liz Neill For sure!
October 2 at 11:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Then stop arguing you sophistical modernist
October 2 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Michael Beitia, do you really mean to suggest that we can only hold to accounts of original sin that don't leave us ignorant of anything?
October 2 at 11:24pm · Like
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Liz Neill What's unfortunate is that I can't see Kenz
October 2 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia are you 02 or 03? do I know you?
October 2 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Yes I would be wrong...in holding the Catholic faith then. But that is impossible. Would you admit you are wrong about the historicity of Christ if the Church declared so? You would disdain the dilemma, as impossible
October 2 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz There was certainly a consenus, before the 20th century, on their being one set of parents, and of other aspects of the doctrine here, both in the sensus fidelium and the sensus theologicorum, to say nothing of the fathers. Therefore it constitutes infallible teaching
October 2 at 11:26pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin Michael, I was '03.
October 2 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Alright, trying to remember.
October 2 at 11:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Liz? She didn't attend but her sister graduated '96
October 2 at 11:26pm · Like
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Liz Neill Peter bolin, I knew class of 96????
October 2 at 11:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nah Bolin
October 2 at 11:27pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill I knew your older brother, Michael!
October 2 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what I'm saying, Michael Bolin, is that saying "its a dark mystery" is not license to make up whatever that we speculate on, flying in the face of all that is taught.
October 2 at 11:29pm · Like · 6
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Liz Neill Sweet person..
October 2 at 11:29pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Keep moving slowly... That way I can get some reading done and still hang around here
October 2 at 11:29pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, Michael, Benedict called it a mystery precisely to indicate that we don't understand it as well as some here think they do.
October 2 at 11:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Liz, I knew his older brother and his older sister. but whatever. His brother in law called me the Ubermensch once.
October 2 at 11:30pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Mr. Bolin, you can't fly in the face of Dogma
October 2 at 11:30pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill There is a difference between flying in the face of and exploring the darkness
October 2 at 11:31pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Which we probably don't...
October 2 at 11:31pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick That is don't understand as well as we may think we do... That doesn't mean we change how sin is passed on.
October 2 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Theological spelunking
October 2 at 11:32pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Think about what is being said, Michael. People here are saying "X is precisely defined dogma" but those whose task it is to guide the Church are saying that it is not. Being Catholic, of course I side with the latter.
October 2 at 11:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so you argue with Trent and the clearly laid out anathemas?
October 2 at 11:33pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ashman OriginaI sin is a marketing technique. It's 'the hook'.
October 2 at 11:34pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I am saying that we must interpret the Church's teaching as the Church does, not however we prefer.
October 2 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jeff, we may call it spelunking, but if it starts to smell bad, and the temperature is 98.6.... we may have our heads up our..... well, you get it
October 2 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the thing is, it seems like you're doing the opposite
October 2 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joshua wishes to pass anathemas on those who understand the Church's teaching other than he understands it. I prefer to follow the Church in learning how to understand her teaching.
October 2 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill I guess my point is, I am familiar with all types of TACs and fams.
October 2 at 11:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope, Michael Bolin. Seems like you're making it up as you go along
October 2 at 11:36pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill Rectal readings are generally 1 degree higher than oral.
October 2 at 11:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Really, Michael? Which view better follows the Church: "If the Church teaches otherwise, I will follow her," or "If the Church teaches otherwise, the Catholic Faith must be false."
October 2 at 11:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Dogma doesn't rise and fall. it is
October 2 at 11:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Bolin Which view better follows the Church, Michael?
October 2 at 11:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia dogma doesn't rise and fall, it is
October 2 at 11:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Understanding her teaching is different from changing it...
October 2 at 11:38pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I will proceed to converse when you answer the question, Michael.
October 2 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm confused. And we still haven't given an alternate understanding of parent. (Or if we did it was waaaaaay far back)
October 2 at 11:39pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz BTW, cf Tuas libenter by Bl. Pius IX on the infallibility of both the sensus fidelium and sensus theologicorum.
I am not saying that Aquinas detailed examination of how original sin is passed down must be held. Bolin is trying to deny even the most basic commonality among accounts through the centuries...ONE man sinned, we take our descent from him, mankind fell in him (so he must be unique in someway that allows that), Genesis relates true history (even the qualifiers in the 1947 PBC document affirm that), and while elements, like the serpent, may be figures, Adam is a type of Christ, and Genesis does relate the existence of real persons and deeds...if it did not it would not be history in any sense
October 2 at 11:39pm · Unlike · 6
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Jeff Neill Nobody has changed it, it is in understanding "what is"
October 2 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill You both make no sense. Since one is blocked.
October 2 at 11:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no no no Lauren, we have. it's "I'll follow the church if thats blah blah blah"
October 2 at 11:40pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill This is what drives me nuts
October 2 at 11:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yar
October 2 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman http://www.nytimes.com/.../22/books/review/22STEINFE.html...
'A Church That Can and Cannot Change': Dogma - New York Times
In his new book, Judge John T. Noonan Jr. demonstrates that some Catholic doctrines have changed radically.
NYTIMES.COM|BY BY PETER STEINFELS
October 2 at 11:41pm · Like
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John Ashman http://www.traditioninaction.org/.../A_099_RatzDogFormula...
Fr. Joseph Ratzinger: Dogmatic formulas should always change
Joseph Ratzinger defends that no dogmatic formula can...
TRADITIONINACTION.ORG
October 2 at 11:44pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick And what's with the TAC habit of ignoring simple questions and skipping to the impossible/difficult ones or dancing around them. *pouts*
October 2 at 11:45pm · Like · 7
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John Ashman Difficult ones are answerable with bullshit (aka 'nuance')
October 2 at 11:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Bolin is trying to besmirch me for how I answer an impossible dilemma
If the Church teaches that Christ did not take flesh, would you admit you are wrong on that? How would you respond, if it, per impossibile, did so, it would mean the Catholic faith is false. I hold that it is impossible for the Church to contradict herself and that is imputed arrogance. Again, anyone who knew my history would know my sudden and thorough abnegation of my opinions before the Church. Bolin is not the Church. And his points are forced
I am not saying anything about my opinions around this subject (those are legion) but the central heart of the dogma, both as defined by the Church's extraordinary magisterium and as taught by the oridinary and universal magisterium, which is infallible, and can be evidenced in the consensus of theologians from before the 20th century.
That I don't wish to try and explain and judge everything Ratzinger may have said, is irrelevant. I consider Bolin's thesis here pernicious in the extreme.
Can I defend that there was such a consensus? Does anyone seriously dispute it? I can cite numerous examples, but really easier to disprove it it if you think it can be.
Does anyone seriously dispute that when reading Trent, the Fathers of the Council or those after them understood it not to refer to Adam as a real man, as the head of the human race? Seriously, if you have evidence, show it. If not, Vatican I applies.
I am sick of this obfuscation of the faith. Yes I have quoted Augustine about how naive readings of scripture, contrary to "scientific theories" cause scandal But I much rather have the faith of the person who would naively read the scriptures (hyper literalism) than one who feels the need that we must leave open every possible sense, and must oppose the magisterium of today, there, to that of yesteryear
October 2 at 11:48pm · Unlike · 8
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Liz Neill Lauren, adorable baby btw.
October 2 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Recent? Congrats...
October 2 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Enough said, Joshua, it's time for bed
October 2 at 11:50pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Lauren, I don't think anyone denied definition of parent. Although whether there were many non-rational females mating with Adam and be getting rational children may be a topic for discussion. (One of those females may have been rational as well and named Eve)
October 2 at 11:51pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Liz, thanks! And yes! Just one month old!
October 2 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Jeff I unblocked you.. I hope we can interact a little more charitably this time? I only blocked you because it tempted me to anger over the women voting thing.
Agreed Jeff?
October 2 at 11:52pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Jeff, non rational females mating with Adam? I don't know what that would mean!
October 2 at 11:52pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Ahhh discourse returns!!
October 2 at 11:53pm · Like
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Liz Neill Hi Kenz. Honestly, why do you block me?
October 2 at 11:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wouldn't it be beastiality?
October 2 at 11:53pm · Unlike · 8
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Jeff Neill Don't get too upset, I am way too much fun.... Although I may search your limits and push a bit.
October 2 at 11:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Yes it would
October 2 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I blocked you only because I anticipated that having blocked Jeff you would nag me about it... that is all. As I said, I blocked him for my own sake (If I cannot engage without anger I rather not engage at all)
October 2 at 11:54pm · Like · 5
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Jeff Neill It would be sinful
October 2 at 11:54pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I agree. Which is why I don't think it can seriously be held, at least before the Fall. After the fall, well that would be a very rapid descent into depravity...then again it only took one generation to have murder...
October 2 at 11:55pm · Unlike · 6
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John Ruplinger Jeff, that's just sick.
October 2 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill After the fall... It may have occurred if that polygenism is to believed.
October 2 at 11:56pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Pretty sure St. Augustine would have huge things to say about that.
October 2 at 11:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Liz you are sitting next to me? I'm right here.
October 2 at 11:57pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a sin, just if there were a society of non-rational homo-Sapiens and one of which became Adam, that the children may not have all been eve's.
October 2 at 11:59pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin All right, Joshua, I'll answer the question. We must distinguish between those facts upon which the Church's authority is established and those which we hold only on account of the Church's authority. The former cannot be overturned by the Church, since the argument would be circular. Since the Church's authority depends on the incarnate Christ's having established it, the Church cannot overturn it. The latter, we should change our opinions about whenever our judgment that "the Church at this time intends to teach X" becomes more probable than our judgment that "before, the Church intended to teach not-X". Quite simple, really.
October 2 at 11:58pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We are talking about matters of revelation, and therefore the former in your distinction. De fide divina not de fide ecclesiatica
October 3 at 12:00am · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Hey Kenz!
October 3 at 12:01am · Like
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Michael Bolin The Church's authority does not depend on whether polygenism is true or false.
October 3 at 12:01am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Does it depend on whether transubstantiation is true or not?
October 3 at 12:01am · Like
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Jeff Neill True
October 3 at 12:01am · Like
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Michael Bolin But rather, you believe polygenism is false because you believe that the Church teaches that it is false.
October 3 at 12:01am · Like
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Michael Bolin No.
October 3 at 12:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ugh. I said true to Bolin
October 3 at 12:02am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin We believe in transubstantiation because the Church teaches it.
October 3 at 12:02am · Like
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Jeff Neill Comments get rearranged after moment or so
October 3 at 12:02am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Yes to transubstantiation.
October 3 at 12:03am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Facebook is very annoying that way.
October 3 at 12:02am · Unlike · 2
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Joshua Kenz Okay, so you are not distinguishing between de fide divina and de fide ecclesiatica as I though.
October 3 at 12:03am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz So, if the Church were to say, e.g., that the bread remained, would you change your "opinion"?
October 3 at 12:03am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Or would you say that such is impossible?
October 3 at 12:04am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I follow the church's teaching.
October 3 at 12:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am just trying to understand Bolin's distinction, is he claiming the Church can change what it intends or that what it intends to teach is only understood by opinion or what?
October 3 at 12:05am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I have opinions beyond what the church teaches, but I may be wrong.
October 3 at 12:05am · Like
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Michael Bolin I have a high degree of confidence that the Church teaches that the bread does not remain, since she has said it many times in many ways, as have most of her theologians. But I am also aware that I am making a judgment that the Church teaches this, and that my judgment is not infallible. Thus, if the contrary were taught sufficiently strongly and often enough that I became more convinced that the Church is now trying to teach that the bread remains than I am convinced that previously she taught that it does not, then I would admit to being wrong that the Church had taught that the bread does not remain.
October 3 at 12:06am · Like
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Katherine Gardner OK, look, Michael Beitia is saying that once a dogma has been clearly defined, it is not necessary to wonder whether something manifestly contrary to that doctrine might be true or might be taught by the Church (as for example whether She might be teaching now that Christ is not true man but only appeared to be). Michael Bolin is denying that polygenism contradicts any defined dogma (such as Original Sin or Adam's headship over the human race) in a direct manner, and in support of this position he is citing the fact that recent pontiffs have also apparently not seen the position of polygenism as per se contrary to any such unchanging dogma. Beitia is not denying that the Church's authority is higher than his personal opinion and Bolin is not claiming that dogma can change. You are disagreeing about what the doctrines of original sin and Adam's headship really entail. Sheesh.
October 3 at 12:06am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Bolin Well put, Katherine.
October 3 at 12:07am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Can you tell she deals with this kind of misunderstanding daily?
October 3 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I think that the teaching about transubstantiation is infallible. But I don't think that my thinking this is infallible.
October 3 at 12:08am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick ?
October 3 at 12:09am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Bolin just gave what I will call a modernist scalpel. Apparently he does not think there is certitude in the assent to propositions of faith.
This is not a misunderstanding. This is a, at its heart, a reiteration of the debate with the modernists. He is trying to force a distinction based on the fallibility of the faithful's judgments about what the Church says
October 3 at 12:09am · Unlike · 9
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Michael Bolin I think that the possible confusion indicated in my previous comment is at the heart of the problem here.
October 3 at 12:09am · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, I am saying that we cannot consider our judgments by introspection and say that "I hold X by divine faith, but not Y." Is that what you mean?
October 3 at 12:11am · Like
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Michael Bolin I mean, of course we can say that, but it does not itself have divine certitude.
October 3 at 12:12am · Like
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Michael Bolin And if we could, we would not need things like Ott's work. We could simply sit down and list everything we held by divine certitude.
October 3 at 12:13am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Michael Beitia, you're a stranger TACer if you can leave and just go to bed without finishing the discussion/argument/thingy
.... Teach me your ways?
October 3 at 12:14am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Joshua Kenz How is that not modernism? Basically claiming that we really cannot know the propositions of the faith, no matter how clearly apparently taught, and that the Church could, as far as I know, starting speaking otherwise and I would have to change my "opinion"
I don't deny the distinction of subjective and objective certitude in faith. But come on. Do you really think that is what this entails? Heck, could I not say the same about my "certitude" that the Faith is certain? My certitude that I should hear the Church? The certitude that Christ became incarnate
October 3 at 12:13am · Unlike · 6
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Michael Bolin I think the certitude you want is only to be had in the beatific vision.
October 3 at 12:14am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I feel like Descartes right now...
October 3 at 12:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Do you also hold such agnosticism with regard to natural knowledge? Does reason have to be infallible to have certitude in some matter?
October 3 at 12:15am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Bolin How is, then, that theologians can disagree over what doctrines are de fide?
October 3 at 12:15am · Like
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Michael Bolin I think the same about natural knowledge, yes.
October 3 at 12:15am · Like
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Michael Bolin But I would really like an answer to my last question. I am not trying to trap you; I truly do not see how it could happen if we had introspective knowledge of what propositions are held with divine certitude.
October 3 at 12:17am · Like
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Michael Bolin Also, for the sake of my understanding your position, consider again my position about the teaching on transubstantiation. Is your position that, if indeed I became convinced that the Church is now teaching that the bread remains, I should conclude that the Catholic faith is false?
October 3 at 12:21am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay, then I must point out that not only do I not share your epistemic assumptions, that you must see are radically behind your whole argument here, I don't think you can reconcile such with the Faith.
If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.
How can that be true if we cannot have certainty? I think to rehash epistemology, which is where this goes back to, besides being unwieldy on facebook, would go beyond my ability to stay awake...do you not see why one would have difficulty with what you are claiming?
October 3 at 12:22am · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz And the answer to your question I think is far more detailed than I am prepared to give at this moment. Not dodging it, just seeing in it many fundamental departures.
October 3 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I have difficulty and may have a crisis of faith if we lack that much certitude...
October 3 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Certainty, like most words, means many things. Of course I agree with Vatican I on this issue. I would also say that I know the Pythagorean theorem with certainty. But that does not preclude another sense in which I could be mistaken about even the Pythagorean theorem, since I do not have God's knowledge of it.
October 3 at 12:24am · Like
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Michael Bolin Or do you not think we could be mistaken about the Pythagorean theorem?
October 3 at 12:24am · Like
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Joshua Kenz You mean it could be possible that a² + b² /= c² in Euclidean geometry? Yeah, I deny we could be mistaken...well maybe you don't have certitude about it, but I do
October 3 at 12:25am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Bolin Yes, I'm assuming Euclidean geometry, not going for a dumb "gotcha."
This is most interesting, then. Could we sit down and compile a list of mathematical propositions about which we could not be mistaken?
October 3 at 12:27am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick That's seems like it would be a long list, and for what end would we compile such a list?
October 3 at 12:28am · Like
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Michael Bolin By the way, thank you for being willing to dialog about this. I think we may be getting to the heart of the issue here.
October 3 at 12:29am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Can we all go to bed so I don't miss anything?
October 3 at 12:29am · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin What is this "bed" you speak of?
October 3 at 12:29am · Unlike · 5
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Joshua Kenz Also not claiming that Euclid's proof is certain...unless you take the context as presuming continuous quantity (I prop 1, e.g., assuming the continuity hypothesis)
2+2=4 in base 10 math. Why not keep it simple?
October 3 at 12:33am · Edited · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I am getting sick with a cold and do need to take a nap or something. So must ecuse myself for now
October 3 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin OK, good night. I would be most interested in continuing this later, if you are willing.
October 3 at 12:35am · Like
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Michael Bolin I must add that this does not mean that I think dogmas can change. Just so, even though I think it possible for us to be mistaken about the Pythagorean theorem, this does not mean that I think the mathematical truth could change.
October 3 at 12:48am · Like
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Edward Langley Isn't there a difference, though? The proof of the Pythagorean theorem is an attempt to make the theorem known and so the lack of certitude there involves doubts either as to the principles or the deductive method (i.e. 4 term fallacy). Thus, it makes sense to distinguish the mathematical truth about the sides and hypotenuse of a right triangle form the Pythagorean theorem since the latter is the articulation of the former.
A dogma (or maybe a dogmatic definition like the canons of Trent?) precisely taken, however, is an attempt to articulate some truth about God or his works. So, in this case, what stands as the mathematical truth does is not the dogma, but the way God is or the way God acts. Consequently, the analogy you rely upon doesn't hold.
October 3 at 1:06am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I'm not sure exactly what to conclude, but dogma just seems to be more like the Pythagorean theorem than like the mathematical truth and thus to say that dogma cannot change/be wrong is precisely to say that we are committed to a certain formulation of the Divine truth by Faith.
October 3 at 1:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I was using "theorem" to mean the conclusion.
October 3 at 1:06am · Like
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Michael Bolin When I believe that my judgment "the Church teaches X" could be mistaken, and that therefore my judgment could change, that does not mean that I think the truth of X itself could change.
October 3 at 1:08am · Like
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Edward Langley That's exactly my point: you said "this does not mean that I think dogmas can change. Just so, even though I think it possible for us to be mistaken about the Pythagorean theorem, this does not mean that I think the mathematical truth could change."
that sets up the analogy "dogmas : X :: mathematical truth : Pythagorean Theorem". I'm arguing that "Divine Truth : dogmas :: mathematical truth : Pythagorean Theorem".
October 3 at 1:11am · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Your third and fourth terms are the same, if I'm following.
October 3 at 1:11am · Like
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Edward Langley Except that they differ as articulable and articulated.
October 3 at 1:12am · Like
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Michael Bolin Nonetheless, either both are true or both are false.
October 3 at 1:13am · Like
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Michael Bolin And in your proportion, Divine Truth cannot change, and so dogmas cannot change.
October 3 at 1:13am · Like
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Edward Langley We can be wrong about the mathematical truth because we claim to think a false theorem: we think we have articulated that truth incorrectly. To say that dogma is infallible would be to say that the Church can't articulate the divine truth incorrectly. That would imply that the way the Church understood the divine truth is the way the divine truth is.
October 3 at 1:19am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill So where along the timeline do we get rationality?
I prefer not having polygenism, but with modern homo Sapiens appearing in the fossil record about 200,000 years ago, I think there is time for monogamy. (Although "they say" Neanderthals coexisted with us until about 50,000 years ago when they became extinct.
October 3 at 1:23am · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin I agree completely that the Church can't articulate the divine truth incorrectly. I also agree that the way the Church understands the divine truth is the way the divine truth is. I have never denied either of these propositions.
October 3 at 1:23am · Like
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Edward Langley I used the past tense intentionally.
October 3 at 1:23am · Like
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Michael Bolin I agree about the past tense too. I didn't change it to make a subtle point.
October 3 at 1:27am · Like
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Edward Langley But then, whether the Fathers of Trent thought Adam was the only ancestor or not would be relevant.
October 3 at 1:31am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Because that would indicate how the Church understood the doctrines in question.
October 3 at 1:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin The same applies. We cannot *infallibly* judge about what the Fathers of Trent thought.
October 3 at 1:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Quite a debate.
October 3 at 1:48am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure Michael, but we're more certain about what they thought on the matter than we are about polygenism.
October 3 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin It seems to me that this whole debate is history repeating itself. When folks were saying that they are not anti-science, Michael Beitia (I think it was) pointed out that no one has affirmed, for example, that Earth is only 6,000 years old. But I know many people who are just as convinced that this is part of Church teaching as Joshua is convinced that monogenism is part of Church teaching. Likewise, Fr. Feeney was convinced that his understanding of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" was infallible, and this is what got him into trouble. How are we to infallibly know that *this time* we've got it right, and that the YECs don't and Fr. Feeney didn't?
October 3 at 1:48am · Like
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Michael Bolin I have said before that I do not wish to affirm that polygenism is the more probable opinion.
October 3 at 1:49am · Unlike · 2
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Michael Bolin And frankly, that aspect of the debate concerns me much less than this later one. I hold the position I do because I believe proper submission to the Church requires it.
October 3 at 1:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I admit that there are some doctrines about which the teaching of the Church is not as clear as others. However, one must distinguish between those teachings that are most clear and those that are not. Otherwise, Joshua is quite right to say that it is Modernist Heresy to say that we cannot know the teachings of the Church with perfect certainty
October 3 at 1:52am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Michael Bolin No, this is false. We cannot sit down and write out an infallible list of infallible propositions.
October 3 at 1:53am · Like
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Michael Bolin And this is obvious, since otherwise there would not be disagreement about what is infallible.
October 3 at 1:53am · Like
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Michael Bolin We could not be having this debate if we could know that with perfect certainty.
October 3 at 1:53am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think there is at least one about which we are sure of its infallibility: Christ rose from the dead.
October 3 at 1:55am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman My point is, Michael, that there are certain teachings that we would not debate about.
October 3 at 1:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I do not think the teaching about polygenism being excluded is a clear teaching. But I could be wrong. I think the teaching about transubstantiation is a clear teaching. I cannot be wrong about that.
October 3 at 1:55am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I agree, because we can have moral certitude. But even that is lacking compared to, say, what the blessed have.
Edward: I noted before that doctrines that the Church's very authority depends on cannot be included in the present discussion, because that would be circular.
October 3 at 1:56am · Like
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Edward Langley So, what about the Assumption or the Immaculate Conception?
October 3 at 1:56am · Like
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Michael Bolin How do you know you cannot be wrong about it? I think what you really mean is that you are so certain that you cannot imagine something happening to make you uncertain. But it is still the case that our certitude is limited just in virtue of being created intellects not united to the divine intellect.
October 3 at 1:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The certitude of faith is greater than moral certitude.
October 3 at 1:58am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I have moral certitude about the Marian dogmas. But the fact remains that it is not impossible in principle that we could become even more certain that our previous understanding of them was wrong.
October 3 at 1:58am · Like
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Edward Langley FWIW, Scotus argues at length about the Eucharist, ultimately holding that consubstantiation was the more rational view. Then, he says something like "sure it's more rational, but the Church has declared otherwise, so we cannot affirm this".
October 3 at 1:58am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Sure. I don't mean moral certitude at the minimum level to be such.
October 3 at 1:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael you arguments assume that the Church is not a perfect teacher.
October 3 at 1:59am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin No, they assume only that we are not God.
October 3 at 1:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or that the faith cannot be taught in a way proportioned to our minds..
October 3 at 1:59am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin That's an outrageous thing for Scotus to say.
October 3 at 1:59am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah.
October 3 at 2:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So there is the certainty of the blessed and there is moral certitude?
October 3 at 2:00am · Like
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Edward Langley But it shows how certain he was about what the Church taught.
October 3 at 2:00am · Like
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Michael Bolin That's right, there actually is a good charitable interpretation of that claim--if he means only that the one seems more reasonable according to his judgment considered apart from the Church's teaching.
October 3 at 2:01am · Like
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Michael Bolin There's nothing wrong with having one's judgment corrected by the Church. That's my point, in fact.
October 3 at 2:01am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Of course not.
October 3 at 2:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The problem, to my mind, Michael is that you make no distinction in the clarity of teachings by the Church.
October 3 at 2:03am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin But I do not believe there is a magic threshold where suddenly one can say "About this, the Church can no longer correct my judgment."
October 3 at 2:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I grant that there is no "line"
October 3 at 2:03am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Not true at all. There is a whole spectrum of clarity, and nothing I said has denied this.
October 3 at 2:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Just as in natural things, somethings will be ceritior to all and some only to the wise.
October 3 at 2:03am · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin The argument started, in fact, because someone asserted that there was such a line, and that he knew infallibly that monogenism was on one side of the line.
October 3 at 2:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is possible that someone has a greater certainty about what the Church teaches, than I.
October 3 at 2:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But, for example. the creed is clear.
October 3 at 2:05am · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, that's right.
October 3 at 2:05am · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, it is clear. But again, "clear" does not equal "past the magic line where our judgment becomes infallible."
October 3 at 2:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But our understanding of Church doctrine can be more or less vague. The greater precision with which we try to state doctrines, the more liable we are to error.
October 3 at 2:07am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman So, from childhood, I was certain (not just morally) that the consecrated host is Jesus, who is God and man.
October 3 at 2:08am · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Agreed completely.
October 3 at 2:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Later on, I learned that my imagination about that was more along the lines of consubstantiation.
October 3 at 2:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Such a position has been clearly repudiated, and when I learned that, I changed my position to that of what the Church teaches.
October 3 at 2:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I admit that the certitude I have in transubstantiation is less than the certitude I have about the general formulation that the consecrated host is Jesus. But that is still a high degree of certitude.
October 3 at 2:10am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin OK. At this point I'm not sure if we're disagreeing or not.
October 3 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Good.
October 3 at 2:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am just trying to be clear.
October 3 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It looked like Joshua was arguing against your brother's position, more than against you, at one point.
October 3 at 2:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman At least the way Louis articulated his thoughts several years ago.
October 3 at 2:13am · Like
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Michael Bolin That, I am not sure about. I think that Joshua thinks I am a modernist, because I tell him that his judgment that "the Church teaches that polygenism is false" is not infallible. And particularly, perhaps, because I say that his judgment would still not be infallible even if the Church did teach that.
October 3 at 2:15am · Like
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Michael Bolin In fact, I would be somewhat surprised if Louis did not agree with Joshua on this question.
October 3 at 2:17am · Like
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Michael Bolin Louis Bolin: The Neverending Thread calls.
October 3 at 2:18am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Uh-oh, is this about to turn into the Bolin family reunion? I've noticed Dominic lurking about already.
October 3 at 2:26am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman We had a long drawn-out debate with Louis about this question about 7 years ago or so, and he held a rather unrefined position about not being able to know the faith.
October 3 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Interesting. DISCLAIMER: I'm not responsible for anything he says.
October 3 at 2:27am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is possible (and hopefully the case) that Louis' positions have changed.
October 3 at 2:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Deleted because I shouldn't speak for him.
October 3 at 2:32am · Like
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John Boyer Post
October 3 at 2:39am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Pater Thomas Crean I think you might be interested in this discussion.
October 3 at 2:44am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Would a human migration map support monogenism from Adam? (Assuming Adam did not migrate immediately of course)
October 3 at 2:52am · Like
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Jeff Neill To be less intimidating here is a log scale of human population in millions.
Data source wolphram alpha, showing about 1m people in 10k Bc
October 3 at 2:58am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I wasn't thinking about Louis here. I will try to write a more thorough response tomorrow (only up still because sleep cycle is messed up despite being sick).
But Aquinas clearly disagrees about this infallible business
1. The spiritual gift of wisdom - Similiter etiam donum sapientiae, cujus est spiritualia quae intellectus apprehendit, judicare sive ordinare sive approbare, infallibiliter et recte judicabit et ordinabit de omnibus quae ei subduntur, sive sint apprehensiones sive operationes; et in hoc quaedam similitudo deitatis in homine apparebit, cum Deus a providendo et judicando nomen acceperit, secundum quam homo filius Dei manifeste ostendetur. (Super Sent., lib. 3 d. 34 q. 1 a. 4 co.)
2. Faith - In response to the objection "credere videtur univoce dici, secundum quod dicimur aliis credere. Sed fides aliorum non est virtus. Ergo nec fides articulorum." (objector using faith the way Aquinas uses it with regard to dialectics)
Aquinas states:
" quod ratio inclinans voluntatem ad credendum articulos, est ipsa veritas prima, quae est infallibilis; sed ratio quae inclinat voluntatem ad credendum alia, est vel aliquod signum fallibile, vel dictum alicujus scientis, qui et falli et fallere potest: unde voluntas non dat infallibilem veritatem intellectui credenti alia credibilia, sicut dat infallibilem veritatem credendi articulos fidei: et propter hoc haec fides est virtus et non alia." (Super Sent., lib. 3 d. 23 q. 2 a. 4 qc. 1)
3. The senses are infallible with respect to their proper objects, Commentary on De anima III lectio 3
4. Among the divisions of logic, judicative logic involves necessity, with no possibility of there being a defect of truth and this isthe same as certainty of science. Opinion belongs to the Topics and involves moral certitude, as the mind is wholly declined to one side of a contradiction, as opposed to what we often call opinion, which he calls suspicion, which is produced by rhetoric. cf the preface of the commentary on the Post Anal.
5. Cf. De spiritualibus creaturis, a. 10 ad 8 on further infallible aspectsof human knowledge.
October 3 at 3:16am · Like
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Joshua Kenz The fact is, I am a Thomist. So of course I reject this skepticism being espoused. There lingers in the background a confusion of "experiential certainty" with both objective and subjective certitude. Nor is the realism of Aquinas a critical realism if critical there is taken in the Kantian manner. What is meant is that it is not naïve, that is it is defended by going back to first principles and intelligible being.
The original bifurcation proposed by Bolin here is self defeating. If I can be wrong about the Church teaching that the substance of bread changes into the substance of Christ, then I can be wrong about the Church teaching that the Godt-Man is really present. Or wrong even about the reality of the incarnation. But you object that those are different...how so, with respect to the certitude that I, MYSELF, possesses? If the Church came out and said that Christ did not physical rise from the dead, but what is meant was a Theophanic experience and the Church gets her mandate from that, why wouldn't I be forced, by this logic to go "okay" and to admit, however unlikely that such could happen...since after all my reason is so utterly fallible that it could be wrong on any particular point, why not that one?
If not that one, at some point Bolin has conceded some things are known with absolute certitude. That there is no absolute line we can draw in no objection. We all admit that human knowing is a clumsy affair. As De Kononick observed I can know a horse is alive and a rock is not, even if I do not know whether a virus is. And that I don't know the exact line between life and non life, doesn't mean I don't possess subjective certitude about life, just that I don't know everything as completely as I would like to.
See object certitude belongs to the thing known or knowable. Subjective certitude is the determination by which my intellect is conformed to reality, in which we have truth. This can be more or less, not as absolute versus moral certitude, but as more or less determined. We know things confusedly at first, children call all men father, then they divide.
My "experience of certainty" is another beast. Who has not felt doubts about things which their reason doubted none of? Sure I can have experiential certainty to, without real certitude. But just as hallucinations don't disprove the reliability of the senses, neither does instances of false affirmations of certainty
In defending Aquinas doctrine of the infallibility of the senses, I wrote
"Then how does one know that he is not misjudging? The very question supposes the answer. To name error, to say that something is an hallucination, to speak of misjudgment is to presuppose a basis by which to judge it. Within the person who is hallucinating, he may be able to recognize that he is doing this by checking with his other senses, primarily that of touch. This thing may look smooth, but touch will confirm. And if his hallucination is so strong as to be indistinguishable for him from reality, the very fact that he is hallucinating means that there is a problem with him. If one looks to dreams, usually one cannot judge while dreaming that he is asleep. His power of judgment is suspended. The same hold true for the man who is convinced by his hallucination. If such an experience were not intrinsically distinguishable from sensation, then it would be impossible for a man to learn that something is an hallucination. But this happens often when the problem that induces the hallucination is removed or mitigated."
I would apply mutatis mutandi here. That I can judge that I have been in error, that I let the love of argument cause me to be more firm in a position that I ought to have, and that we can see this sometimes more clearly in others...well instead of showing that there is no absolute certitude, these judgments about error presuppose that there is.
October 3 at 3:29am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz In answer to the almost Kantian criticism that Bolin asked we make, this introspection to get a list of dogmata- I answer that it is clear from above. Such a methodology may be good for taking inventory of what I personally know, but it confuses "experiential certainty" with subjective certitude. The fact is that I do know things, not merely have opinions. That I cannot make a list troubles me no more than the virus troubled De Koninck in asking whether we knew something about "life"
Indeed, language, the ability to communicate ideas and for the Church to even teach assumes a certain ability of the mind to actually know something, and since certitude is the primary aspect of knowledge, by which we mean "absolute certitude" since moral certitude belongs to human faith, belief and opinion, then yes, it presupposes at least a very clumsy infallibility in human knowledge, as an aspect often shrouded by the faulty parts yes. Indeed, were we angels we would not have a difference between experiential certainty and subjective certitude.
Likewise the Church doctrine that the sensus theologicorum or the sensus fidelium even is INFALLIBLE underscores that their understanding of the words used by the propositions of faith cannot be, ultimately, be denied in an attempt to reconcile modern difficult statements with past doctrine.
October 3 at 3:44am · Edited · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict This is fantastic. I am learning so much!
October 3 at 3:38am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, would you agree with this: But our understanding of Church doctrine can be more or less vague. The greater precision with which we try to state doctrines, the more liable we are to error.
October 3 at 3:45am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Isn't it great, Isak ?!
October 3 at 3:45am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Come on! I'm only up for 30 minutes. this can move fast again for that time!
October 3 at 3:50am · Like
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Joshua Kenz "But I do not believe there is a magic threshold where suddenly one can say "About this, the Church can no longer correct my judgment.""
Bolin....stop misrepresenting what I said. I said it was impossible for the Church to teacher other than she has taught, whether about Christ, transubstantiation, or our first parents. If she did, per impossibile, the faith would be false.
That is not arrogance, it is an argument from contradiction. I argued that
1. The dogma at Trent was understood in this way. But we cannot understand doctrine other than how it has always been understood. Vatican I was directly at point, viz advancement of sciences versus that understanding
2. Pius XII understood the dogma in this way, and this was not repuidated by John Paul II or Ratzinger.
3. That there was a consensus, both of theologians and the faith, before the 20th century. But the Church teaches that such constitutes infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Tuas libenter).
No one addressed 3. Two was asserted again, but is in no wise clear and 1 was brushed of via the modernist scalpel, between things we believe because the Church says so and things prior to that....(which distinction I utterly deny, for even something like transubstantiation is believed de fide divina, ot de fide ecclesiatica...i.e. on God's authority, as witnessed and handed down by the Churc)
And I answered that were the Church, then, to be contradicting what held before, that the Catholic faith would be untrue...that was meant to be a proof from contradiction. The Faith is true, therefore not contradicting.
But it also shows, for all the decrying of young earth creationists, how utterly scandalous and offensive this position advanced by Bolin strikes me. Such reasoning is what I have personally seen lead many out of the faith, because it boils down to little more than "if the church says black is white than it is white" I used to call that the "magisterialist heresy" But I really think it is a form of authoritarian modernism. And people don't buy into it. Because it means that everything, every word said about the faith, well I could be wrong...sure we have an infallible teacher, but there is a wall between her infallibility teaching and us being infallibly taught...Church teaching is really, then, incomprehensible and we are only making reasoned opinion about what that is.
But then why not join a protestant church? Many low churchers view the bible that way...infallible, but not infallibly understood...funny we Catholics argue that the unity of faith requires an infallible authority, except Bolin argues that it makes no actual difference to the members of the Church, since the infallible rule remains wholly outside the faithful as something they can never reach in faith.
There is, lastly, a confusion in what the faith consists in. I said this already, but more explicitly. My faith is in God, and the propositions I believe "de fide" I believe as revealed by Him and on His authority. The Church is not the object of faith or infallible assent in that way, but one assents because the virtue of faith assents to her as the organ through which God safeguards His revelation. So there is not a bifurcation of dogma. Indeed, those truths infallibly taught by the Church, such that the soul is form and body is matter, that are not themselves revealed, are indeed infallibly taught, but it is not heresy to deny them, because de fide ecclesiatica...and still the infallibility is there only because of the connection to the faith. The Church presupposes not just Christ instituting her, but the entirety of revelation. So yes, I vehemently denounce this position of Bolin as modernism in magisterial garbs.
October 3 at 3:58am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Yes, my understanding can be more or less vague, more or less explicit
Example, many Catholics would deny predestination, thinking that as Catholics they ought to deny this. This is not through the act of faith, but of mistaken human judgment (opinion)
I assent to transubstantiation as revealed by God. This is infallible, and the act of faith means, as Aquinas says explicitly, that the will gives my intellect infallible truth here. But I take the position of Scotus, that it happens in modo abductionis to be heresy. Years later I discover that it is not. My rejection of that as heresy was in some way motivated by my faith, but a result of mistaken opinion. My judgment now that it is certainly wrong is different too, in that my certitude is in the manner of a theological conclusion. Before that I had moral certitude, by looking at the fact that even scotists abandoned that doctrine long ago.
That I was mistaken about one thing, does not mean the act of faith does not involve infallible assent to certain propositions (as based on the proper object of Faith, God, which is the first truth). Just as we mistakenly judge our certitude at times with natural knowledge, but damn it we know that we know even if sometimes we muddle things, no?
And my mistaken over-condemnation of abduction, doesn’t lessen the certitude I have with regard to the Church's doctrine....it was rejected as incompatible with the same. Something I now claim to know with real certitude, from reasoning, but before I falsely held because I thought the Church herself had made that judgment...in other words, my apprehension of the faith remained true even in spite of the error consequent. The character of my judgment now is of reason leading, rather than the will commanding, and so if very different.
People make mistakes all the time. That doesn't trouble me a bit here.
October 3 at 4:08am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Oran example where I was very wrong. I formerly thought that two unbaptised persons could be divorced, so that if one were to remarry there would not be an issue or any need to involve the Church's judgment. But I was wrong (divorce is prohibited to all)
Again, my assent to the proposition that sacramental marriage is indissoluble is no more certain now than then, though I drew a false conclusion from it Just as even in children who call all men father there is an apprehension that involves certitude, then they and I learned to divide. The degree to which my reason is determined by faith in holding explicitly this or that varies, not the infallibility by which faith moves me to hold it.
Not sure that was any clearer...
October 3 at 4:18am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman So, would you agree with this: the certitude I have in transubstantiation is less than the certitude I have about the general formulation that the consecrated host is Jesus. But that is still a high degree of certitude?
October 3 at 4:32am · Like
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Michael Bolin The quotations from St. Thomas miss the point. Indeed, whatever is believed by divine faith is true (else it would not be by divine faith), but your judgment that you believe any specific proposition by divine faith is fallible.
"If the Church came out and said that Christ did not physical rise from the dead, but what is meant was a Theophanic experience and the Church gets her mandate from that, why wouldn't I be forced, by this logic to go 'okay' and to admit, however unlikely that such could happen...since after all my reason is so utterly fallible that it could be wrong on any particular point, why not that one?"
Yes, it is true that one could in principle become more certain that the Church is contradicting herself than one is of the reasons for believing the Church to be an authority in the first place, which would indeed lead one to conclude that the Church is in error. I hope, however, that you are not claiming that your certainty that the Church teaches that polygenism is false is greater than your certainty that the Church is a legitimate teaching authority in the first place, which is what would be required to justify your position that the Faith would be proved false if the Church were to explicitly state the permissibility of polygenism.
Nor is the reference to De Koninck pertinent. The subjective certitude that, e.g., a horse is alive is not infallibility. And likewise it is false that judgments of error presuppose infallible judgments; rather, they presuppose only that some judgments are more certain than others. This is because judgments of error are also not infallible.
Again, if you cannot make a list, at least an incomplete one, of things you know infallibly, then how do you know that "The Church teaches that polygenism is false" is on that list?
Again, it should be clear by now that Church doctrines such as the infallibility of the consensus of the Fathers cannot get you out of the difficulty. For you are not infallible in judging what doctrines belong to the consensus of the Fathers, or the sense of the faithful, or any other.
"Bolin....stop misrepresenting what I said. I said it was impossible for the Church to teacher other than she has taught, whether about Christ, transubstantiation, or our first parents. If she did, per impossibile, the faith would be false. That is not arrogance, it is an argument from contradiction."
It is true that the Church cannot teach other than as she has taught, but that is not what you claimed. You claimed that the Church cannot teach other than as you believe her to have taught.
"1. The dogma at Trent was understood in this way. But we cannot understand doctrine other than how it has always been understood."
Your judgment that the dogma at Trent was understood in this way is not infallible.
"2. Pius XII understood the dogma in this way, and this was not repuidated by John Paul II or Ratzinger."
Your judgment that Pius XII understood (and presumably intended to teach) the dogma in this way is not infallible.
"3. That there was a consensus, both of theologians and the faith, before the 20th century. But the Church teaches that such constitutes infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Tuas libenter)."
Your judgment that there was such a consensus is not infallible.
"But it also shows, for all the decrying of young earth creationists, how utterly scandalous and offensive this position advanced by Bolin strikes me."
Indeed. And there are those who are just as certain that the Catholic faith teaches that the earth was created 6,000 years ago as you are that the Catholic faith teaches that polygenism is false. And because, like you, they believe that their judgment that the Church teaches this is infallible, they believe the old-earth position to be utterly scandalous and offensive. And, like you, they could say that if they could be wrong about the Church teaching this, then they could be wrong about the Church teaching that Christ rose from the dead; and they can't be wrong about that, so they can't be wrong about the age of the earth either. And so dialog becomes impossible, because everyone is convinced, like you, that his own opinion is infallible.
"But then why not join a protestant church? Many low churchers view the bible that way...infallible, but not infallibly understood...funny we Catholics argue that the unity of faith requires an infallible authority, except Bolin argues that it makes no actual difference to the members of the Church, since the infallible rule remains wholly outside the faithful as something they can never reach in faith."
Why not indeed, if you already know in advance what the Church can and cannot teach, because your opinions about this are infallible? It is you who make the living Magisterium unnecessary, because you wish to extend her infallibility beyond her teachings to your own opinions about her teachings.
Finally, there remains the most obvious problem for your position: you claim that it is impossible to be mistaken about the proposition "The Church teaches that polygenism is false," yet here we are disagreeing as to whether that proposition is true. How do we disagree, if one cannot be mistaken about it?
October 3 at 4:44am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Gloves off time
If by certitude we mean objective certitude, the former is greater than the latter. If by subjective certitude, this too, since one truth follows upon the other. Just as I am more certain of an earlier proposition in Euclid than a latter one.
But if by degrees of certitude we mean anything like moral versus absolute certitude, this I deny. Namely, I deny that there is in the fear of error involved in opinion. And affirm that my will commands my intellect to assent to this as to infallible truth. Let's not try to bury what Bolin said in the vague use of terms for the sake of a false harmony.
He is arguing for modernism. I say that is pernicious how scandalous his statements are here. That he cannot see how such statements can truly harm young souls boggles my mind.
The most obvious problem is Bolin is that he is a skeptic. It is clear Aquinas was not. It is clear John Paul II was not. But he has this bizarre view of faith that derives from his ultimately agnostic stance about knowledge, which leads him to affirm heresy what we know is heresy.
When the Church says we can know by natural reason that God exists with certainty, did she mean moral certitude or absolute? Only a liar would claim the former. Clearly it was understood, as Aquinas understood natural reason, as reaching a truth with "necessity" and "scientific certitude"
I have given an answer for why people can be in error about sensation yet still sensation is infallible, as AQUINAS says. But Bolin still throws up "how can we disagree if you are right" argument. Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong Bolin. About a whole lot of things. People disagree about many things that are certainly true. It just means people can be wrong, not that knowledge of these things is impossible.
I reject your heresy with every sinew of my being. I denounce it as rank modernism. It makes impossible discussion about the status of Church teaching, as I tried to make following Tuas libenter, impossible. Because you are arguing that we must be ready to hold dogma in a way different than it was held before. That is modernism. Pure and simple. Words have no meaning and we collapse into solipsism.
October 3 at 4:56am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz My judgment that Bolin is not an hermaphrodite duck in a man costume is not infallible.
My judgment that the word "Church" does not mean "tar pit" is not infallible
My judgment that pope Francis is not one of the lizard people is not infallible.
My judgment that I exist is not infallble
My judgment that I am not a brain in a vat is not infallible
My judgment that is does not mean is not is not infallible
Wow! Look at the liberty given us by skepticism!
October 3 at 4:59am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I say that Communion and Stewardship means by individuals Adam, and by popuations Eve, as individual persons. Tell me I am wrong. Tell me I am wrong if I say that when the Church says Christ rose from the Dead, that it only means a theophanic experience in the Apostles, that I am wrong?
And do that, and I will take you as affirming me, because my judgment that the word wrong means wrong is not infallible...I could be wrong and wrong could mean right
October 3 at 5:01am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz stjyssytmsmgmsysm fdnjw56kym gfnstrn vzfgjw5698kmn vc gtrwu6jn xgfvgthejm sgrn536hm sgw r5hn t 66n
October 3 at 5:01am · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz And thus we must descend into unintelligibility, both with regard to the Faith and with regard to reality....this way to the insane asylum
October 3 at 5:02am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz To say I am not infallible is not to give an argument (one easy to give just show a counter example). It is to be a (children may be present) donkey-hat but the other word for a donkey
October 3 at 5:03am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Seems part of the dispute is that there is a contention that Joshua knows "in advance" about what the Church teaches and does not teach. When in reality it is the product of lot a reasearch.
October 3 at 5:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This seems to point out that not all Church teachings are equally clear.
October 3 at 5:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But all church teachings can be made clear by refferal to her documents.
October 3 at 5:30am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But even there, some are teachings will be more clearly expounded than others.
October 3 at 5:30am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Okay that was snarky, but the point remains. If I am correct about monogenism, its objective certitude is based on its necessary connection with the doctrine of original sin, which is less certain than the objective certitude of the proposition that scripture is a channel of revelation in which God has revealed that, and that is derived from the first truth, the object of Faith Himself, God. The objective certitude of the propositions of faith are not derived from the magisterium as some middle term. Rather the magisterium is the organ of revelation, that serves to safeguard and make known what was revealed by God.
We don't call truth infallible insofar as truth is in res, but insofar as truth is assented to by reason. In this case, by the infallible rule of faith. The Church's infallibility means nothing to me, without the virtue of faith that moves me to assent to her as to an infallible rule, as the a safeguard and teacher of the contents of revelation
If, ultimately there is no infallible assent on the part of the faithful, then the word is meaningless. And if there is no "infallibility" involved in human knowing, then "absolute certitude" becomes a false construct. And we cannot, then, say that if the Church said that resurrection was really a Theophany and not a real event, that that would change anything about our relation with her. Because ultimately, the very meaning of any word becomes meaningless. Because it is possible that it can mean anything else. But I know, with absolute certitude, some things, if not many. And, this greater or less certitude, still absolute, is what undergirds both ability to know and to even speak.
The position that because my judgment is not itself infallible, I cannot be absolutely certain, e.g. that the bread does not remain in transubstantiation, must logically entail that because my judgment is not infallible, I cannot be absolutely certain that any word means anything. And so the same skepticism must also affect any and all of my assents, even that God exists. Or my assent to the proposition that words mean something, that there are other people besides me, and so on. It really ends in rendering everything gibberish.
October 3 at 5:30am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I still don't see that the polygenism question is wholly resolved.
October 3 at 5:31am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram I disagree with Michael procedurally, theologically, and even academically in his use of sources, and I think it is a bit ridiculous to do this usual Bolin thing of saying absurd things and then insisting that because a Bolin said it it clearly was spoken with the authority of the Apostles. I had to deal with that enough as a freshman, and then as a sophomore, and then as a junior, and I don't like it. Frankly I wish people would poke back at it as Josh is doing.
In the first place, procedurally. Josh has given a number of arguments which are, whether they are "obsolete" or not, ARGUMENTS. I seem to recall that we went to Thomas Aquinas College, and I also note that whatever TNET has become, it began as a display of the ARGUMENTS with which students routinely capped their education. When we honestly make arguments, as fellow alumni, that to me constitutes a sacred duty to answer presumed truth with actual truth.
I have read the whole exchange. I find Bolin's responses, when they aren't bloody-minded blase to the whole situation, to be completely obscure on the question of where he thinks any (any!) epistemological authority comes from.
For the former: like when he answered Joshua's first claim with "that interpretation has been answered already" - is that so, Professor? Would you care to cite sources, and also how they FACTUALLY and CAREFULLY interpret the PBC paper? Because I would love to see that - knowing Joshua, I'd wager he's seen any sources you'd produce already, and if he hasn't I have full confidence in his ability to dissect them in a fitting manner.
For the latter: oh, so our ability to be mistaken about opinions eliminates the possibility of holding an infallible statement to be infallible correctly and in the right context? The presumption here is that Kenz is OF COURSE holding the wrong context and the wrong interpretation. Now, I dunno how long it's been since Bolin was a freshman, but in Mr. Baer's Freshman Aristotle class we called that a petitio principii, and whatever you think of it, it's not a nice thing to do to someone. But putting that aside, to make it *not* a petitio principii, one needs a relevant authority to clarify and interpret it, if one is proposing a sense that is contrary to the evident literal sense of the document. Moreover, that authority needs to be active in that passage. Who does Bolin produce? Early Ratzinger, talking about the "mystery" of original sin, which as far as I can tell may have nothing to do with the necessities of its mode of transmission. And why should we all be cowed by early Ratzinger? (Keeping in mind that I love Holy Father Emeritus Benedict and have proclaimed my nerd-love to the hills.)
After all, Bolin's friends, parents, professors, and even bishops-yet-to-become-Popes can assure me that theologically he is on the ball, yet his friends could be sympathetic, his parents could be blinded by love, his professors could be modernists, and the Popes-to-be (given that the grace of Office is hardly there before one is appointed to the office) could very well be, like Prince Hal, engaging in childlike rabblerousing before they take the throne. Notably, I seem to recall that before he was Pope Benedict, Cardinal Ratzinger at one point even favored the thought of Hans Kung, but changed his mind in light of the atmosphere it eventually created at Tubingen. So if we want to play the "whose interpretation is historically obsolete" card, it seems to me that we should be aware that quoting early Ratzinger is a minefield of changed opinions.
But suppose his Cardinalate or his giant brain gives him trustworthiness, if not general authority over the universal Church as he would later have. You know what else had that? Trent. It was a solemn Council, in which all the bishops spoke together with the Vicar of Christ - Lumen Gentium says that trumps everything. It was regarded by the Church as ecumenical. Now if I said "Trent says this, PBC said this, these twenty Popes said this, a Doctor of the Church whom we all respect said this, the Doctors who seemed to say otherwise were not according to trustworthy authorities" and someone else says "yeah, well then-early-Cardinal Ratzinger said this in one place!" is that REALLY supposed to be something that confirms your street cred? I think not.
Frankly, I wish we could see some actual discussion of monogenism and original sin as such instead of whose nihil obstat we have. I am certain Joshua is up to that task. So far I have not been impressed by Bolin.
October 3 at 5:33am · Like · 4
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Dominic Bolin I'll probably say something about this topic later, but right now I would just like to point out that the quote regarding the mystery of original sin is not from "early Ratzinger." It is from a general audience of Pope Benedict XVI, in 2008. To be mistaken about something as simply factual as that seems to me to be quite careless.
October 3 at 5:39am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Building on what Josh said - saying Josh is not infallible in his opinion is LITERALLY the same thing as to say "yeah, well, that's just your opinion." Well, yes. And that this is "just" something that isn't enough is Bolin's opinion. In the end it comes down to who is more credible - Bolin or Josh. Personally, from long experience, I lean towards Josh, but that's no way to have a disputation, so I look to the sources and not the arguers. And in that case, from long experience, I lean towards the ecumenical Council and the authoritative pronouncement by the Biblical Commission and the thought of Thomas Aquinas on the matter - because duh.
I love Pope Benedict, I loved him when he was Ratzinger, but I didn't agree with everything he said as Ratzinger and neither should we all, since neither, as Benedict, did he.
October 3 at 5:42am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram You are right, Dominic Bolin - I meant the quote from "In the Beginning" about relational sin. The quote on the mystery of original sin remains irrelevant, but I will grant it was given in a General Audience.
Granted that I was careless as to proper attribution of a quote which I consider irrelevant to the discussion, that I will own; but if you are going to try and do the ridiculous thing of saying that mixing up two quotes invalidates my whole argument that this has been weak soup, I would consider THAT quite "careless", in the sense of "not caring enough to actually address what Josh has said."
October 3 at 5:46am · Edited · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram In fact, in context:
"...This is the good news of the faith: only one good source exists, the Creator. Therefore living is a good, it is a good thing to be a man or a woman life is good. Then follows a mystery of darkness, or night. Evil does not come from the source of being itself, it is not equally primal. Evil comes from a freedom created, from a freedom abused.
How was it possible, how did it happen? This remains obscure. Evil is not logical. Only God and good are logical, are light. Evil remains mysterious. It is presented as such in great images, as it is in chapter 3 of Genesis, with that scene of the two trees, of the serpent, of sinful man: a great image that makes us guess but cannot explain what is itself illogical. We may guess, not explain; nor may we recount it as one fact beside another, because it is a deeper reality. It remains a mystery of darkness, of night. But a mystery of light is immediately added. Evil comes from a subordinate source. God with his light is stronger. And therefore evil can be overcome. Thus the creature, man, can be healed. The dualist visions, including the monism of evolutionism, cannot say that man is curable; but if evil comes only from a subordinate source, it remains true that man is healable. And the Book of Wisdom says: "he made the nations of the world curable" (1: 14 Vulgate). And finally, the last point: man is not only healable, but is healed de facto. God introduced healing. He entered into history in person. He set a source of pure good against the permanent source of evil. The Crucified and Risen Christ, the new Adam, counters the murky river of evil with a river of light. And this river is present in history: we see the Saints, the great Saints but also the humble saints, the simple faithful. We see that the stream of light which flows from Christ is present, is strong."
This is the whole quote. Please take care to note the language of the two streams, one flowing from "the new Adam" and the other...not? "mysterious"? No. The other, the murky stream, pretty obviously originated in the old Adam, who had "freedom abused." You will note that at no point is the method of propagation discussed or even made vaguely referential in this entire passage. What IS referenced is the mystery of how a perfect man could sin.
WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POLY/MONOGENISM QUESTION.
I rest my case.
October 3 at 5:51am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram The question of the propagation of sin is to me not as mysterious as its causality. If you rip a picture, and then make a reproduction with a rip, by that original picture rips entered the chain. Our nature is from Adam, from whom Eve was fashioned, and they both sinned, and like begets like, so sin begets sin. If our nature were from some other pair, you would have to posit a SECOND original sin by another pair, you would have to posit all manner of things nowhere discussed in Genesis, and the reason for presuming these things would be no better than that you found them in the notes of some feverish Biblical scholar trying to propose an original theory.
October 3 at 5:54am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
October 3 at 5:56am · Like · 5
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Tom Sundaram Anyways, I have tried very hard not to accidentally get sucked into the TNET rapids since I got tagged in the thing in the first place - I can't stand the infernal phone notifications. I only posted this because looking from without I found this exchange entirely unsatisfactory.
October 3 at 6:02am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Just to be one hundred percent sure, I reread the whole general audience. At no point are monogenism or polygenism mentioned at all - it's a red herring authority. So all that Bolin has really cited is In The Beginning, which was pre-Papal, as a matter of fact and record.
October 3 at 6:06am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz And I don't think Bolin and I can resolve it, since his epistemic assumptions negate such an investigation.
I do think that we all descend from Adam, and that there was a set of first parents who sinned and caused the fall of any kind and that such is evident in both the canons of Trent, and all later theological treatments both in the magisterium and by theologians that had her approbation. I pointed to the consent of the theologians, a standard urged by Pius IX...my argument admits of falsification, namely showing that there was never such a consensus by giving counterexamples. That would have the value of undermining that argument and showing that the Church did not under those dogmatic pronouncements as I have presented them.
How and when we get an ontological leap I am agnostic about. The doctrine of our first parents? Not so much.
I did make a mistake earlier though. I said that that the soul was form, and body matter was infallibly taught, not not dogma. No, actually it is de fide divina. My bad there. See I do make mistakes...
But here, on this point? Polygenism is not new. It was advanced as early as the beginning of the 17th century (and even earlier in Patristic times) Both the Fathers then, and the theologians later defended against it as an attack on the Catholic faith. And Trent is quoted by more than a few authorities affirming against it.
The burden of proof is on the deniers of my claim here. And to quote Ratzinger's relational account of original sin (which must be understood in the context of his account of the human person as a relation, remember he rejects there the definition of Aquinas on human person), may be be a fascinating rabbit hole to descend into. It doesn't answer Pius XII's objection, nor the fact that Pius XII said polygenism was NOT permitted because it was no way apparent how it could be reconciled with "original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."
That original sin proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own is the dogma. That this, therefore, demands a monogenism was held as sententia certa by say Ott. If one advances polygenism (and when did that get permitted...the early Ratzinger writing, were it to entail that, was before any possible evidence and thus would be writing against the decision of the Magisterium at the time. Bolin misses that part. His position entails that Ratzinger was violating the magisterium at the time of his writing...great authority there then....), they would have to still admit that an individual Adam actually committed a sin and passed it on to the rest of us.
They would have to answer how we are all contracted it from him, through descent (genetic drift could answer that I concede) and would have to answer how a man who is not actually the origin/head of the human race, could cause the whole race to fall by an incidental genetic drift. It would seem you would have to posit, at least for a time, a period where the "race of Adam" was not coextensive with mankind, and so unfallen men would have existed, but died out or got married into the race of Adam through genetic drift.
This would be, of course, against Aquinas's account of the fall, St. Athansius, Agustines and every theologian before the 20th century and would poses serious difficulties about even statements made in Communion and Stewardship, which speaks of Adam both as a type of Christ and as a symbol of the unity of the human race. But he would be no more a symbol of unity were he one among many as I would be. And if the Church was not yanking our chain, then we must take the consensus of theolgians seriously here, as actually constituting a source for knowing revelation (namely tradition), and as an authority beyond the locus theologicus we would give an individual doctor, even Aquinas. We cannot go against this consensus according to Pius IX
So the judgment of previous theologians that monogenism is sententia certa seems incredibly hard to dislodge at the very least, and likely infallible (and should then be sent fidei proxima).
It is indeed "certain teaching" if there is no way of denying it without denying "that original sin proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own" And it is indeed infallible if there was a true consensus. Again prove me wrong. Cite some counter examples. One approved theologian before the 20th century (yes that is arbitrary, but besides the fact that the last century is a mess and almost impossible to see who is approbated, it is not necessary that the consensus be there always and everywhere, but only that it has been held and was in fact held with a moral unanimity as a matter of faith...to allude to a distinction between common agreement between the Fathers on tangential matters versus matters of faith)
October 3 at 6:07am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman What puzzles me about this dispute is that I can propose statements to which both parties assent to, that seem to pertain to the heart of the issue.
October 3 at 6:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I feel like there is a lot of speaking past one another.
October 3 at 6:37am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, with regards to the polygenism question in particular, I think you are very right about the challenges that the position faces.
October 3 at 6:40am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But do the challenges really rule polygenism out as a possibility?
October 3 at 6:51am · Like
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Tom Sundaram This was how he opened his case, with this from Trent:
"When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own."
That seems to me pretty all or nothing, as arguments from authority go.
October 3 at 6:56am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This issue seems to me to be thus: Clear church teaching is that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, and we inherit original sin and its effects from him. Further determination of this doctrine seems to me to be subject to more uncertainty and discussion, while keeping in mind the positions of the Fathers and tradition.
October 3 at 6:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think Joshua is further correct in saying that the burden of proof is on those who wish to hold polygensim.
October 3 at 6:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This, of course is the key phrase, "it is in no way apparent."
October 3 at 6:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman By the very inclusion of that phrase, it of necessity leaves open the possibility for it to be discussed. But it likewise places the burden of prrof on those who would show otherwise than monogenism.
October 3 at 6:59am · Like
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Tom Sundaram This is fair - but it is also necessary to answer every argument FOR monogenism if one wishes to assert against it, since the argument must be strong enough for the task. So far I have seen mostly muttering and text snippets out of context.
October 3 at 7:00am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz We are not speaking past each other. We are speaking different languages. Him of skepticism and modernism, me of at least some attempt at realism.
He assents to things you say, but clearly understands them differently....moral certitude about the Marian dogmas anyone? Nominal assent doesn't mean much
October 3 at 7:00am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Possibility of being discussed? Maybe, but held, argued for? It is in no way permitted to hold this is how he starts off
October 3 at 7:01am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram I think Kenz is better suited to give the arguments which have been raised in favor of monogenism - minimally I agree with Josh that it is foolhardy in the extreme to hold to polygenism, and still more foolhardy to promote it as something that can be safely held. This is not just about which is right, it is also about which is safe.
I think of this in the same way I think of von Balthasar's "not-really-but-kind-of-maybe universal salvation" position. Could it be true? Not if it amounts to what I think it amounts to, but some people think it does not fall under previous censure, and they could also be wrong. Is it safe to hold? I don't know, and most likely not. Should we promote it? Sweet Betsy, no.
October 3 at 7:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Forgive my naivete, but I really do assume the goodwill of all parties involved.
I find it hard to believe that Michael Bolin deliberately holds a skeptic's or modernist's view.
Also, I refuse to believe that you, Joshua are a crass, dogmatic fideist that is unwilling to engage in discussion on these things.
October 3 at 7:04am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Fideist? Bolin denies the ability to know anything, I affirm both reason and faith as having certitude
October 3 at 7:05am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't know that your comparison is apt, Tom. Balthasar's view can never be held. Polygenism, at least theoretically, might be able to be held.
October 3 at 7:05am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And it is pretty deliberate to be a skeptic when you explicitly hold that we cannot have absolute certitude of anything. Which he did, when he said he makes the same judgment about natural knowledge...
October 3 at 7:06am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is my point, Joshua. But I don't think that Bolin denies the ability to know anything, either.
October 3 at 7:06am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am merely taking him at his word
October 3 at 7:06am · Like
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Tom Sundaram Goodwill is one thing, but it's also respectful to hold people to their arguments...if Bolin really means what he says, we ought to take it seriously. If he is being facetious, he ought to stop, since clearly some of us aren't. The presumption is that he is not, out of respect for his ability to assert his position.
October 3 at 7:06am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I won't speak for Michael Bolin.
October 3 at 7:07am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But he did, explicitly. Yes we can play word games and fold "knowledge" into what Aquinas calls "opinion, belief"
October 3 at 7:07am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But that is what it would be, word games
October 3 at 7:07am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I missed that, Joshua.
October 3 at 7:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought he was talking about degrees of certitude, not knowledge.
October 3 at 7:08am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz WRT polygenism, I still hold my original point, the one that started this, that the ontological leap is not discernible by sciencetific methodology, so that in fact, whatever can be said of our common genetic descent, presuming the creation of man ex nihilo (dogma) involved pre-existing matter taken from hominid stock, cannot amount to a proof for polygenism. Because such method cannot distinguish the origin of the person...by the time artifacts and the like would be discoverable, the human population would have grown besides.
Seeing as nothing in scientific research really challenges monogenism, if understood in respect to the human person, why is it even something to try and establish, that polygenism is possible?
I am more than willing to discuss a serious attempt at answering the challenges, whether my argument that such teaching is infallible via Tuas libenter, or my argument that Adam must have in himself a greater unity, and in some sense, as Nieto put it, hold the species of man in himself in a unique way in order to explain how mankind as a whole fell when Adam fell. Address Aquinas's argument here.
What I am not willing is to be told that because of some vague relational ontology held by Ratzinger, I am somehow not being a good Catholics. Or that all my arguments were refuted when none of them were. Or, after an apparent turn toward amiability, to be turned on and have not just my position misrepresented, but my faith impugned.
Yeah, at that point I become crass and dogmatic since I am not dealing with rational discourse.
Does anyone seriously doubt my claim about how before the 20th century everyone understood us as descending from a single pair? Except a few protestant heretics who were condemned for holding pre-Adamite humanity. Oh yeah, that could have been brought up if we ever did have the discussion we should have had, rather than the skeptical nightmare above (and the demands for was it Cartesian or Kantian introspection?)
And no one wants to address that argument from the ordinary and universal magisterium. Consensus= infallible. There was a consensus, ergo. But that is ignored.
October 3 at 7:19am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman One can at least wonder about the consensus part. It seems like there was a consensus to geo-centrism...
October 3 at 7:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Regardless, I think this is the strongest argument for monogensim: "Adam must have in himself a greater unity, and in some sense, as Nieto put it, hold the species of man in himself in a unique way in order to explain how mankind as a whole fell when Adam fell."
October 3 at 7:23am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, I asked him point blank
Do you also hold such agnosticism with regard to natural knowledge? Does reason have to be infallible to have certitude in some matter?
He responded: I think the same about natural knowledge, yes.
We then had that exchange about how he could be wrong about the Pythagoerean theorem....and he found it fascinating that I claimed I knew anything with (absolute) certitude and started the demand for a list thing again.
He is playing fast with words. That is why I keep using objective certitude, subjective certitude, experiential certainty, absolute certitude. If it was a misunderstanding, those distinctions should have cleared it up...he does some to waffle on the moral certitude claim admittedly . But moral certitude is opinion, belief, not knowledge. We would all be stuck in the Topics.
That is skepticism. More like Cicero than Aquinas there
October 3 at 7:27am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think you are right that these issues need to be cleared up before proceeding.
October 3 at 7:30am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Okay the point about geo-centrism is well taken, but then we make a distinction. One I alluded to when I made the argument. There is a difference between consensus in something held as a matter pertaining to the faith, and a consensus held incidental to the same. Clearly geocentrism was at best held by most as a matter of scientific opinion, not as a matter of theology (Aquinas even mentions how it could be wrong)
Whereas, e.g., that Mary was sinless was held by a consensus as a matter pertaining to the Faith. It is in the consensus (chiefly of the Fathers, and secondarily of the theologians and faithful) that we locate that channel of revelation which is Tradition.
The claim is that there was a consensus both of the faithful and of theologians, long standing and morally unanimous about a matter held as pertaining to the faith, and that this thus constitutes a theological locus which we can establish claims about revelation. And further, when approved theologians have moral unamity this also is evidence of the ordinary and universal magisterium.
So we have two theological loci, scripture and tradition, specifically Genesis, and the general belief about Adam and Eve in the Church for centuries. We then have the operation of the magisterium confirming the understanding of these, most in the authentic magisterium, and in the ordinary and universal magisterium, at least insofar as there was a consensus of theologians.
So yes distinctions must be made, but my argument is, essentially, no different (in form) than the argument that the teaching on women ordination is infallible, due to the universal and ordinary magisterium.
But I do think, theologically (insofar as theology is a science and we aim at more than symbolic theology) you are right about the stronger argument. Just wanted to flesh out the argument of authority some more..
October 3 at 7:37am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Now my head is pounding, joints aching and fever running and I finally feel tired enough to sleep.
In honor of St. Thomas affirmation about the gift wisdom allowing its receipient to judge "correctly and infallibly" about ordering things to God, a prayer
Concede michi misericors Deus que tibi placita sunt ardenter concupiscere, prudenter inuestigare, ueraciter agnoscere et perfecte implere. Ad laudem et gloriam nominis tui ordina statum meum, et quod a me requiris tribue ut sciam, et da exequi ut oportet et expedit anime mee. Via mea, Domine, ad te tuta sit, recta et consummata, non deficiens inter prospera et aduersa, ut in prosperis tibi gratiam referam et in aduersis seruem patientiam, ut in illis non extollar et in istis non deprimar; de nullo gaudeam nisi quod promoueat me apud te, nec de aliquo doleam nisi quod abducat me a te; nulli placere appetam uel displicere timeam nisi te. Vilescant michi omnia transitoria propter te, et cara sint michi omnia tua et tu Deus super quam omnia. Tedeat me omnis gaudii quod est sine te, nec cupiam aliquid quod est extra te. Delecte me labor qui est pro te, et tediosa sit michi omnis quies que non est in te. Frequenter da me cor meum ad te dirigere, et defectionem meam cum emendationis proposito dolendo pensare. Fac me, Deus meus, humilem sine fictione, ylarem sine dissolutione, tristem sine deiectione, maturum sine grauiture, agilem sine leuitate, ueracem sine duplicitate, te timentem sine desperatione, sperentem sine presumptione, proximum corrigere sine simulatione, ipsum edificare uerbo et exemplo sine elatione, obedientem sine contradictione, patientem sine murmuratione. Da michi, dulcissime Deus, cor peruigil quod nulla abducat a te curiosa cogitatio; da nobile quod nulla deorsum trahat indigna affectio; da inuictum quod nulla fatiget tribulatio; et da liberum quod nulla sibi uendicet uiolenta temptatio; et da rectum quod nulla obliquet sinistra intentio. Largire michi, Domine Deus meus, intellectum te cognoscentem, diligentiam te querentem, sapientiam te inuenientem, conuersationem tibi placentem, perseuerantiam te fideliter expectantem, et fiduciam te finaliter amplectentem; tuis penis configi per penitentiam, tuis beneficiis uti in uia per gratiam, et tuis gaudiis in patria frui per gloriam. Amen.
October 3 at 7:45am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick So anyone notice Joshua Kenz has basically been accused of the same fault as our first troll? I'm amused, and not awake enough to read everything.
October 3 at 7:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I just finished catching up. and I would like to add, my certitude of my certitude of my degree of error with regard to my certitude is in no way certain with regard to dogma.
October 3 at 8:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^which is meaningless twaddle^
October 3 at 8:20am · Like · 4
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Dominic Bolin “Just to be one hundred percent sure, I reread the whole general audience. At no point are monogenism or polygenism mentioned at all - it's a red herring authority.”
So because those two words are not mentioned, you conclude that the whole thing is irrelevant? Surely he is talking about original sin, and also what original sin is is relevant to whether polygenism is possible.
“However, as people of today we must ask ourselves: what is this original sin? What does St Paul teach, what does the Church teach? Is this doctrine still sustainable today? Many think that in light of the history of evolution, there is no longer room for the doctrine of a first sin that then would have permeated the whole of human history. And, as a result, the matter of Redemption and of the Redeemer would also lose its foundation. Therefore, does original sin exist or not? In order to respond. . .”
Nothing at all to do with polygenism?
Is what the Popes tell us about original sin irrelevant?
This is exactly why Michael is at least to some degree justified in being annoyed with some of the attitudes displayed here in regard to the teaching of the Church. It is also why I said, within the first few hundred comments here, that I think there is some truth to what Scott Weinburg was trying to say.
October 3 at 8:25am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His [Page 32] death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.
October 3 at 8:31am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia for emphasis: "if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust"
October 3 at 8:41am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Dominic: no, it is because I read the whole audience very carefully and found nothing to support either side. Of course he is talking about original sin. However, nothing he says at all in any way determines the concept of either its genesis or propagation. You are welcome to make the claim I am wrong, but I expect an argument, not a claim that I must be cherry picking.
Yes, the section on evolution is SO GENERAL that you may as well assume he was talking about whether he was referring to the preexisting species question. Which is separable from the question at hand. Please do not assume that I am a moron.
If you think that this is a case of neglecting Papal authority, I would invite you to read my thesis defending Papal authority.
October 3 at 9:00am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Beitia, what are you quoting?
October 3 at 9:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia Council of Trent. But I could be mistaken about my certitude of the certainness of the certibility of the quote.
October 3 at 9:02am · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram Tl;dr - the idea that the originating character of man that renders possible the first sin is mysterious has nothing to do with whether there were many first men, and the bit on evolution, taken from another section, is so vague as to be possibly (probably) referring to an entirely separate issue.
If it had anything to do with polygenism it would be AGAINST it, because then there would have to be multiple first sins or just all the missing data in the world. The fact that the nature of sin is mysterious does NOT make polygenism more tenable.
October 3 at 9:06am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia You certain, Tom?
October 3 at 9:08am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Certain enough that I know how to read Papal pronouncements carefully, yes. I have had to read enough these last 8 years.
October 3 at 9:09am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram And really? You're calling me symptomatic of Weinberg's raving? Take your passive aggressive commentary elsewhere, I will have no part in it.
The only thing I have displayed in this is that I read the Church's teaching (God knows I do) and that I don't ignore Trent in doing so. If you want to insinuate that I doubt the Church's authority or am a heretic on that count, Dominic, you had best look to the prudence of making such accusations. I have given enough years to studying and defending it explicitly.
October 3 at 9:15am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Finally caught up. My take on last night-- Michael Bolin is a sophistical modernist, Poor Mr. Kenz needs some sudafed and a good night's sleep.
October 3 at 9:12am · Edited · Unlike · 8
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Samantha Cohoe "sophistical modernist" is a great insult. That's going to be my go-to.
October 3 at 9:13am · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia "sophistical modernist" is the name of my new punk band (MaryLiz)
October 3 at 9:14am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Tom, it was a joke. the Bolin epistemology annoys the living crap out of me.
October 3 at 9:15am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Refuting errors is like medicine to Joshua.
October 3 at 9:16am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Tom was talking to the other Bolin, I thought, Michael
October 3 at 9:16am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm extremely confused by the Bolin epistemology.
October 3 at 9:17am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I missed all the bolins. there was a 99, an 01 and an 03, but I'm the representative of 00 here.
October 3 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram In other news, I need to go read some canons for my class. So I will be off. Ciao tutti!
October 3 at 9:19am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Is the Incarnation the only thing Bolin thinks Catholics can hold with perfect certainty? Not trying to argue, just to understand.
October 3 at 9:23am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Someone explain this to me: " We must distinguish between those facts upon which the Church's authority is established and those which we hold only on account of the Church's authority. The former cannot be overturned by the Church, since the argument would be circular. Since the Church's authority depends on the incarnate Christ's having established it, the Church cannot overturn it. The latter, we should change our opinions about whenever our judgment that "the Church at this time intends to teach X" becomes more probable than our judgment that "before, the Church intended to teach not-X". Quite simple, really."
October 3 at 9:23am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe someone who doesn't think it's sophistical modernism, that is.
October 3 at 9:24am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin? Somebody tag him for me.
October 3 at 9:29am · Like
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John Ruplinger Bolin's position undermines all dogma. While not modernist per se, it leads to it. Scepticism paves the way for modernism. What boggles my mind though is that Bolin can produce no sure list of de fide dogmas and yet maintain that Joshua is heterdox.
October 3 at 9:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia I think that discussing epistemology may not be fruitful....
October 3 at 9:31am · Like
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Joel HF Here's what amuses me: (a) If Perescott ever reads this debate, all his theories about the deficient way theology is taught at TAC will be affirmed (despite the fact that TACers are on both sides of this debate, and not a few of them, again on both sides, have advanced degrees in theology); (b) Bolin, whose position would scandalize Perescott and who is considered (if jokingly) a sophistical modernist by some, actually SUPPORTS Perescott's thesis (if not his arguments or argumentative method) that theology is poorly taught at TAC. More lectures and the inclusion of more magisterial teaching of the Church, is the general thrust of the critique, if I recall it correctly.
And now, I have to go read 50million new comments. Good thing none of the posters like dump quoting (it’s a thing!) giant Latin texts in the comments. … oh wait. I’ll see y’all in a week when I catch up.
October 3 at 9:32am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson "No, YOU'RE a heretic!"
October 3 at 9:33am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think this debate demonstrates the impossibility of teaching Catholic dogma the way Perescott would like it to be taught.
October 3 at 9:34am · Like
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Michael Beitia it's day time though, so we need to switch to literature.
October 3 at 9:34am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But I'm never here at night! I miss all the theology! ::::pouts:::::
October 3 at 9:34am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson, that is a very surface level reading of the debate. Heretic.
October 3 at 9:36am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think The Peregrine is right in this sense: TACers tend to think the underlying issues in RC theology are all very easy.
They're not in any direction. They never were. They never will be. At any time there are glaring and intrinsically difficult problems to own up to, whether it be whether or not this whole Christianity thing was meant to apply to non-Jews and whether or not you could eat pagan blessed meats sold in the marketplace.
The first MODERNISTS!
October 3 at 9:38am · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe This is why I'm not entirely convinced that becoming Catholic would solve all my doctrinal problems. If Michael Bolin isn't a modernist heretic, then the Catholic Church doesn't really give all that much more certainty than a careful Protestant read of theology gives me.
October 3 at 9:39am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Peterson, the truth is very simple. My certifiable certitudinal certainty of the certifiability of certain dogmas may not be.
October 3 at 9:40am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson On the contrary, the fact it's not all nearly sorted out should get rid of your red flag warnings. Of course it won't magically solve all your doctrinal problems.
But a "careful Protestant read of theology" ... Haha...that's the real trick, isn't it?
October 3 at 9:42am · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I'm saying, "careful Protestant read of theology" isn't seeming like too much more of a trick than understanding Catholic theology at the moment
October 3 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia your view is tainted because you're an adult convert to Catholicism Matthew J. Peterson
October 3 at 9:44am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia tNET includes all potential theologies.
October 3 at 9:44am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Why? Because it isn't bifurcated into asinine Protestant alternatives between fundies and Unitarians?
October 3 at 9:44am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^this is an asinine understanding of Protestantism
October 3 at 9:45am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson But the real problem is that you seek the truth too quickly from tNET.
Much like Galadriel's mirror...
October 3 at 9:45am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Probably true
October 3 at 9:45am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, if you want to call it an -ism you need to deal with all of it.
October 3 at 9:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I've seen plenty of Protestant debates on the subject. In fact, this very issue under discussion has seriously injured and divided American Protestantism over the last century or so.
October 3 at 9:48am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe How do you deal with the asinine liberal Catholics? Nuns on the bus and such?
October 3 at 9:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Beautiful morning here at Loyola Marymount.
October 3 at 9:49am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I ignore them
October 3 at 9:51am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, well I ignore unitarians and fundamentalists. Problem solved.
October 3 at 9:51am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: that's just the point: I don't get to write them off as The Other and pleasantly speak about my church as if it's all hunky dory. They are part of the deal. And many make good points on X, Y, and Z partial issues.
October 3 at 9:52am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia except nuns on the bus are specifically condemned. and there is an authority within the Catholic Church to do so
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Matthew J. Peterson The idea of ignoring people *we know* are wrong breaks down as a hermeneutic fairly quickly
October 3 at 9:53am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson You almost wonder what Faith is for the way people are so certain about what they are specifically certain about.
October 3 at 9:55am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I just wanna express my admiration for Tom Sundaram, who wrote a tl;dr practically as long as his original post.
October 3 at 9:55am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Are you opposing faith and certainty, Matthew J. Peterson?
October 3 at 9:56am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You sophistical modernist
October 3 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I dunno. I don't believe in magic answer books, even if a few are in some way true and certain, and some more than others. You can't get rid of the all too human elements of interpretation.
October 3 at 9:56am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, there are clearly defined lists of propositions
October 3 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It's called the canons of ecumenical councils.
October 3 at 9:57am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Hold one, you're a heretic.
October 3 at 9:57am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin doesn't seem to think so.
October 3 at 9:57am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I meant about the clearly defined lists of propositions, not about me being a heretic. I'm sure Michael Bolin agrees about that.
October 3 at 9:58am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Michael's argument, as far as I understand it, basically comes down to saying something like you can never really be sure you're holding the dogma as the Church understood it. But, I don't think he would deny that there are clearly stated propositions proposed for our belief.
October 3 at 9:59am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, that's kind of meaningless if you can't know what they mean
October 3 at 9:59am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram The summary in the tl; dr is notionally simpler.
October 3 at 10:00am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Which might be wrong (hint, I think it is), but it's still within what I'm claiming.
October 3 at 10:00am · Like
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Edward Langley Tom Sundaram, "ens est" summarizes any sentence.
October 3 at 10:00am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley if understood with the appropriate qualifications.
October 3 at 10:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's the beauty of this thing, I don't have to listen to Bolins!
October 3 at 10:01am · Like
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John Ruplinger Bolin strikes me as a bit to certain about his uncertainty. Something Beitia pointed out I think.
October 3 at 10:01am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Did you just block them all, Michael?
October 3 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia of course not. I block no one.
October 3 at 10:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia as an internet troll, I have very thick skin. Unlike Kenz, I don't get angry with other people, even if they are (in order): wrong, stupid, sophistical, offensive, or dense
October 3 at 10:04am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe So...Lilith. Weird book. George MacDonald was a universalist, apparently.
October 3 at 10:04am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah, that's one of the things C.S. Lewis criticizes him for.
October 3 at 10:05am · Like
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Michael Beitia ugh I hatE (loathe, detest, abhor) C.S. Lewis. there. I said it
October 3 at 10:08am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Til We Have Faces is a wonderful book.
October 3 at 10:07am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley What kinds of hats does he like?
October 3 at 10:07am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And why would you be reluctant to admit it?
October 3 at 10:07am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but I've never read Lilith. We have most of his kids books for free from project Gutenberg.
October 3 at 10:08am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Lilith is weird. First, it seems to be a really trippy, religious version of Gulliver's Travels
October 3 at 10:08am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Bolin's epistemology makes theology professors taking positions professional makers of guesses. ..heeey....
Theology professors
Professional guessers
Who then's the biggest mess-er,
The blessers or the Fesers?
Still they are impressive
Accredited redressive
Their philosophy, vacuous,
And theology, "expressive!"
October 3 at 10:10am · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Then, you finally start to figure out what's happening, and something like a plot emerges
October 3 at 10:09am · Like
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Edward Langley Who here likes the Faerie Queene?
October 3 at 10:09am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ME!! MEMEMEME!!!
October 3 at 10:10am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia of despair?
October 3 at 10:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I DO!
October 3 at 10:10am · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha, you like C.S. Lewis's fiction too?
October 3 at 10:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not all of it.
October 3 at 10:10am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I dislike the Space Trilogy.
October 3 at 10:11am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm just wondering, 'cause C.S. Lewis really liked Spenser
October 3 at 10:11am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A fact which explains Michael Beitia
October 3 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think we all agree That Hideous Strength is a failure.
October 3 at 10:11am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe And I don't like all of the Narnia books.
October 3 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But I deeply love Til We Have Faces
October 3 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram FALSE FALSE FALSE Cohoe bite your tongue
October 3 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe did not mean to tag that. Stupid facebook
October 3 at 10:12am · Like
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Edward Langley Funny, I liked That Hideous Strength best.
October 3 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe MRS. Cohoe to you
October 3 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But I generally agree on Narnia
October 3 at 10:12am · Like
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Edward Langley (with the exception of the Silver Chair)
October 3 at 10:12am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Feel free to like it, but it's a failure
October 3 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Lol okay MRS Cohoe... Actually I did not mean to be fresh just cursory.
October 3 at 10:13am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram And how on earth can it be a failure, it is an incredible book!
October 3 at 10:15am · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You guys. Really.
October 3 at 10:16am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Merlin? Head in a jar?
October 3 at 10:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The head was the best part.
October 3 at 10:17am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe It's a bizarre mishmash of things
October 3 at 10:17am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And Merlin
October 3 at 10:17am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe doesn't work
October 3 at 10:17am · Like
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Michael Beitia oof
October 3 at 10:17am · Like
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Edward Langley That's just because you like boring realistic novels like War and Peace.
October 3 at 10:17am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 10:17am · Like
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Tom Sundaram Ahem so is Dante and Milton
October 3 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like bizarre surrealism.
October 3 at 10:18am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ed. You are kidding about War and Peace.
October 3 at 10:19am · Like
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 10:19am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I refuse to believe you actually mean that.
October 3 at 10:19am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And I like both sci-fi and fantasy, when they're good
October 3 at 10:20am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Dude the part where Merlin freaks out about Jane not having had kids is such a great analogy for paganism.
October 3 at 10:22am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick I need to start sleeping in the day.... This literature stuff doesn't interest me
October 3 at 10:23am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I tried to resurrect the theology, but the theologians are sleeping, apparently
October 3 at 10:23am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram If I had time I would deliberately make absurd claims to keep you ladies entertained, but alas, I have to go to Piazza Navona. Later maybe.
October 3 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe maybe I'll go clean my house. sigh.
October 3 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Sigh indeed.
October 3 at 10:27am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is nobody going to stop me from cleaning my house?
October 3 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm at work, hang on
October 3 at 10:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry "work"
October 3 at 10:28am · Like
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Dominic Bolin So advocating caution in dismissing a papal work that deals with original sin in the context of evolution as irrelevant to polygenism is actually passive-aggressiveness. TIL.
October 3 at 10:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe A Bolin! Defend the Bolin epistemology, sir!
October 3 at 10:31am · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Today I learned that TIL is reddit-speak for Today I Learned.
October 3 at 10:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like The Space Trilogy
October 3 at 10:35am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I also like That Hideous Strength
October 3 at 10:35am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman They're weird, granted.
October 3 at 10:35am · Unlike · 2
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Tom Sundaram No, suggesting that the mere claim that some Papal work is misapplied amounts to a rejection of Church authority is passive aggressive and baldly rhetorical.
October 3 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Dominic, that's a straw man and you know better
October 3 at 10:37am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia or maybe you don't. maybe you don't have the necessary epistemological grounding to say that anything is known.
October 3 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well, with certitude
October 3 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Are we operating on the assumption that all Bolins think the same way?
October 3 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or that there is only one Bolin?
October 3 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia somewhat. until I have evidence to the contrary....
October 3 at 10:39am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I don't object to anyone liking That Hideous Strength. There's stuff in there to like, if you're a certain kind of person. But it's for sure a literary failure.
October 3 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Bolins all hold the Bolin epistemology, I'm going to assume.
October 3 at 10:40am · Unlike · 2
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Tom Sundaram The only assumption I have is that Dominic said that I represent the truth of Weinberg's complaints, at which I take extreme umbrage.
October 3 at 10:40am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson It would be absurd to say that someone's understanding of nature has no bearing on the interpretation of texts and doctrine, however.
When one determines what is metaphorical or figurative, for instance, this often depends on what one think is true about nature.
Similarly, all manner of moral policies or regulations and even the phrasing of principles will change due to this change in understanding of what is as well. (I think here of understandings concerning when life begins and ends, for instance - or real developments in psychology and their effect on our understanding of culpability and much more, etc.)
October 3 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^that is a much weaker assertion than polygenesis
October 3 at 10:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia "if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust"
interpret away
October 3 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Don't fault me for trying to clarify this convoluted "debate" by moving from more known to less known.
Or wait - do. This. Is. tNET.
October 3 at 10:42am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I fault you by default, remember?
October 3 at 10:42am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't like the pick and choose, copy and paste from somewheres in the magisterium game because it gives a false sense of security and answerbookishness.
October 3 at 10:43am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Then read the whole context
October 3 at 10:44am · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson supports the Bolin Epistemology.
October 3 at 10:45am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe What's the point of having defined dogma if you can't use it answerbookishly?
October 3 at 10:46am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The quotes may or may not be relevant, but the methodology overlaps with the hermeneutic of inquisition (I overlay my answer key and reject everything that doesn't fit).
Difficult issues usually call for a less haste. Treebeards are needed.
October 3 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman This is amusing to me: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../6-things-aristotle-got...
6 Ancient Scientific Hypotheses That Turned Out To Be Very Wrong (NEW...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
October 3 at 10:46am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram I consider the argument against the elder Bolin separate from my resentment of Dominic's accusation that I am anything like the deranged archetype in Weinberg's head.
Additionally, I resent even the mitigated claim that I hold even Aquinas prior to what the Church actually teaches in solemn Council.
Finally, I wonder that such a charge of denying Church authority is leveled at me over such a nitpick as "this audience is about sin and evolution so every or even any peripheral quote in it must apply to the polygenism argument." Especially in defense of someone outright ignoring both Trent and the PBC.
Frankly it sounds to me more like family loyalty than an honest argument.
October 3 at 10:47am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, defined dogma and doctrine is obviously helpful. But it doesn't resolve every problem in some simplistic answer bookish way.
In fact, doctrine often comes OUT of very CONTENTIOUS, CONFUSING debates that last a long time.
October 3 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^FALSE!!!!!!!!!!
October 3 at 10:48am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, but then, presumably, it says something that is intelligible, and can be used to falsify things that oppose it.
October 3 at 10:48am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia doctrine emerges, Dogma does not
October 3 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Fair.^
October 3 at 10:48am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^oh yeah? What's the difference?
October 3 at 10:49am · Like
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Edward Langley "In fact, dogma often comes OUT of very CONTENTIOUS, CONFUSING debates that last a long time."
Prescinding from any verbal imprecisions, dogma comes out of such debates because the Church decides the faithful need clarity on the point at steak.
October 3 at 10:49am · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (sic)
October 3 at 10:49am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course it does - sure - Samantha Cohoe
October 3 at 10:49am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I changed the verbal imprecision already
October 3 at 10:50am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It seems that the Trent stuff that keeps being quoted is pretty clear, and none of the polygenism advocates are dealing with it
October 3 at 10:50am · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley So, if the dogmatic formulation weren't clear and "answerbookish", in some sense, it would be vain.
October 3 at 10:50am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In general, doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed
October 3 at 10:50am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson If you want to pretend it was all clear to the church go right ahead. Peter wasn't even sure if the whole thing applied to non-Jews, however. So...
October 3 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The closest we got to that, Samantha, was the suggestion that we're not infallibly sure how the Fathers of Trent took the word Adam.
October 3 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley So he defined a resolution at the first ecumenical council
October 3 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The council of Jerusalem, read Acts sometime.
October 3 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson That while trinity thing sounded like MODERNISM to many who were very certain that God was one.
October 3 at 10:52am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm confused as to who Matthew J. Peterson is arguing against
October 3 at 10:52am · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley And we no longer wonder if Catholics must be circumcised
October 3 at 10:52am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Yeah, and we have councils telling us the propositions we must hold wrt. the doctrine of the Trinity.
October 3 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Nice and clear.
October 3 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The implications of them doctrines might not be clear, but that's a whole 'nuther matter.
October 3 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Matthew I am confused as well, who is your verbal trident aimed at from beneath the flowing waves
October 3 at 10:53am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: your response reveals you are not understanding me very well.
But if your logic is correct, at some point in the future the Church will deal with these issues more directly. Perhaps as the science becomes more clear.
October 3 at 10:54am · Like
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Edward Langley "I believe in one God, The Father Almighty."
See look:
DOGMA: God exists
DOGMA: God is omnipotent
any questions?
October 3 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My point is, Matthew, the evidence is that she already has.
October 3 at 10:54am · Like
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Edward Langley But we'll see.
October 3 at 10:54am · Like
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Edward Langley We've quoted Trent, and the best we've gotten back is that "it's not clear how Original Sin was propagated from Adam to the other humans.
October 3 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am confused about what is being debated.
October 3 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm tired, so I might be off-topic
October 3 at 10:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Meanwhile, this is also amusing: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Jeremy-Clarkson-Top-Gear...
Jeremy Clarkson forced to leave Argentina after Falklands outrage
The BBC presenter reportedly left the country three days...
DAILYMAIL.CO.UK
October 3 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's not cool to act like you definitely know what the Church teaches on a subject when the Church has defined it in an ecumenical Council. That's answerbookish.
October 3 at 10:59am · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Edward Langley Yeah, the Church's teaching isn't "relevant" unless you can't answer simple questions about it, since it's not at all clear-cut or anything.
October 3 at 10:59am · Like
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Edward Langley "When Trent says 'Adam' does it mean 'Adam' or another man by the same name?"
"Perhaps the real question here is how many men were named Adam. It is also interesting to imagine the competition among Eves: imagine, half a million women fighting for the privilege of being the mother of the human race and then ruining everything in a giant apple-pie cookoff."
October 3 at 11:02am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Ooops.
October 3 at 11:02am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I'll be back later. Keep up the good work.
October 3 at 11:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given that I seem to be in a middle ground between warring factions, I assume that I am right. You should all probably just agree with me and talk about something else.
October 3 at 11:04am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel, moderation has no place on tNET.
October 3 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Tom Sundaram & Joshua Kenz--Having finally read this long debate, I am aflame with love for your wisdom and love for your clarity and love for the charity with which you proceeded charity! (Yes, Charity! For it is clear that the love of the truth is burning brightly in your hearts, and not love merely of human truth but love of that divine truth which is Christ!) I wish I were with you now, so that I could, in the style of the Russians, embrace you both and kiss you! How could I restrain myself? Only, perhaps, out of my respect for what you have both done and my feeling that @Josh Kenz might shoot me with one of his numerous firearms.
God bless plain-spokenness in the defense of truth! God bless you both!
October 3 at 11:05am · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia Daniel, never agree, then tNET slows down.
October 3 at 11:05am · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I'm out for the weekend guys. Don't have too much fun without me.
October 3 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also if the “one Adam” can mean “many Adams” am I free to hold a “polychrists” theory? Let me gloss 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 as it would have to be understood: “For as by [men] came death, by [men] has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam[s] all die, so also in Christ[s] shall all be made alive.”
October 3 at 11:10am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Hey, the official mother of tNET can't leave.
October 3 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Someone tag me in if a Bolin ever comes back to defend Bolin epistemology, though.
October 3 at 11:10am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Well, I'm touched, but I don't think I can be tNET's mother. I wasn't here from the beginning
October 3 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Besides, the candidates for tNET's father are Scott and Matthew J. Peterson... so...
October 3 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Adoptive mother.
October 3 at 11:11am · Like
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Edward Langley tNET's in the facebook foster care program.
October 3 at 11:12am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe aw, poor tNET.
October 3 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe well, I'm going to contribute to tNET's abandonment issues then.
October 3 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:14am · Like
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Edward Langley The sharks are gathering
October 3 at 11:15am · Like
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:15am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Did we all just agree to disagree?
October 3 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:16am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe the buzzards are circling
October 3 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:16am · Like
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Michael Beitia or the flies are buzzing?
October 3 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:17am · Like
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Michael Beitia the penguins are sliding?
October 3 at 11:17am · Like
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Dangerous.
October 3 at 11:19am · Like
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Michael Beitia the guns of the navarone?
October 3 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:19am · Like
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:19am · Like
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Michael Beitia What is this, emoji hour?
October 3 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Yeah
October 3 at 11:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia all I can make is winking faces......
October 3 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia
October 3 at 11:21am · Like
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Edward Langley http://www.symbols-n-emoticons.com/.../facebook-emoticons...
List of Emoticons for Facebook
Here is our complete list of all Facebook emoticons. As you can see, we have loads of great emoticons to choose...
SYMBOLS-N-EMOTICONS.COM
October 3 at 11:21am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia see
October 3 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall I see tNET has been reduced suddenly to emotis, symbols, and sentence fragments. It's as though a gang of adolescent analytic philosophers suddenly took over and are holding tNET for ransom. O well. It's raining, so I'm going back to bed.
October 3 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Let's talk about how evil Capitalism is.
October 3 at 11:23am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia let's!
October 3 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I myself am an ardent monobolinist. The burden of proof is on those polybolinists who hold that there are multiple Bolins with multiple differing opinions and on those quasi-polybolinists who hold that there are actually more than one Bolin (though holding the same opinions).
October 3 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Thomas Hall But it's not. I like it. Let's talk about how foolish Distributism is.
October 3 at 11:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Capitalism is evil. First and foremost it is evil because studying it requires reading Adam Smith's wealth of Nations.
October 3 at 11:25am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Capitalism
October 3 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Joel HF: 1) Thank you, and 2) read fewer Russians.
October 3 at 11:25am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia emojis are like falling down a rabbit hole.
October 3 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Secondly, it is evil because it is typically founded on filthy lucre.
October 3 at 11:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Thirdly, filthy lucre leads to evil.
October 3 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Fourthly, the evil is usually filthy usury.
October 3 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Fifthly, I have student loans.
October 3 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Nina Rachele Let's talk about how the division of labor is evil instead. Since I wrote my thesis on that. hahahahahahahahaha
October 3 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia sixthly, it tends to monetize every human interaction
October 3 at 11:26am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Seventhly, it produces enumerated lists.
October 3 at 11:28am · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele enumerated lists: one of the chief evils of human existence.
October 3 at 11:28am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia That is wrong for the following six reasons:
October 3 at 11:29am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict "Marry, sir, they have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied a lady;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves."
October 3 at 11:31am · Like · 4
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Joel HF @Tom Sundaram--I'm taking a break from Tolstoy soon, I swear!
October 3 at 11:32am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Scotus has a really interesting instrument against an infinity of per se causes (I might get the details wrong, though):
The prior per se cause is a more perfect cause then the posterior cause.
Thus, if there were an infinity of per se causes, there would be an infinite cause (i.e. a cause greater than an infinity of causes; given because we're postulating an actual infinity).
An infinite cause doesn't depend on another.
A cause that doesn't depend on another is a first cause.
Thus, if there were an infinite number of causes, there would be a first cause.
But an infinite number of causes lacks a first, therefore it is impossible.
QED
October 3 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 3 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think you've been studying too much analytic philosophy...
October 3 at 11:38am · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, what do you think about that argument from Scotus?
October 3 at 11:39am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Katherine Gardner—Bolin’s temerarious (at the very least) statements about transubstantiation implicitly argue that Church teaching can in fact change. For it would be impossible for such a change to be anything but a radical about face.
October 3 at 11:39am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and about farce
October 3 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia a forceful farcical about face
October 3 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Sigh...looks like there was an interesting conversation here *clicks view previous comments*
October 3 at 11:42am · Like · 5
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Katherine Gardner Did not see his comments about transubstantiation. And now, off to work. It would seriously be nice to have this thing in some readable format, like a word doc. Or many word docs... anything one could search!
October 3 at 11:42am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia We already considered printing it on toilet paper....
October 3 at 11:44am · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Tom Sundaram:
"Frankly, I wish we could see some actual discussion of monogenism and original sin as such instead of whose nihil obstat we have."
Why is discussion needed? Since Mr. Kenz's opinion cannot be mistaken, as I am assured, we need only ask him for his opinion, and we will then possess the infallible truth of the matter.
"Now if I said 'Trent says this, PBC said this, these twenty Popes said this, a Doctor of the Church whom we all respect said this, the Doctors who seemed to say otherwise were not according to trustworthy authorities' and someone else says "yeah, well then-early-Cardinal Ratzinger said this in one place!" is that REALLY supposed to be something that confirms your street cred? I think not."
By this, you betray a lack of respect for the shepherds of the Church. "Then-early-Cardinal Ratzinger" (which, as pointed out, he was not in the case in question) is a great theologian who is no doubt aware of what Trent, the PBC, and the popes have said. If he expresses an opinion that you think is contrary to these sources, instead of dismissing it out of hand, you should consider rather whether perhaps he doesn't know these sources better than you, and that perhaps it is his opinion, after all, that is in line with them, not yours.
October 3 at 11:57am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Samantha
October 3 at 11:51am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Respondeo: "if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust"
October 3 at 11:52am · Edited · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick That's a sed Contra
October 3 at 11:59am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin To all on this thread who are attacking polygenism: the argument between Mr. Kenz and myself has moved to a rather more important point. I have stated on several occasions now that polygenism may well be false, so the arguments that it is in fact false do not pertain to the more important debate.
The more important debate is this: Mr. Kenz has claimed that his judgment that "The Church teaches that polygenism is false" is infallible, whereas I say that his judgment about this is fallible. It is difficult to judge how to respond to many of my other interlocutors without knowing where they stand on this question. So I ask you: Is Mr. Kenz's judgment that "the Church teaches that polygenism is false" infallible? Note that the question I ask is *not* whether the Church teaches that polygenism is false, but whether there is any possibility of error in Mr. Kenz's judgment that this is so.
I propose a thought experiment to aid you in this question. If next year the Pope were to come out with an encyclical on the subject of polygenism and original sin, would you consider reading this document with an eye to learning more about the truth about polygenism and original sin? Mr. Kenz's view, as I understand it, is that he would know in advance, before reading the document, that it would not teach that polygenism is a permissible opinion. In fact, he has gone further, and stated that if the document did so teach this, it would prove that the Catholic faith is false. Would you follow him in this? Would you say to yourself, as you prepare to read the document, "If the Pope teaches in this that polygenism is a permissible opinion, I'm going to reject the Catholic faith as false"?
October 3 at 12:00pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^It moved beyond that to whether the church may change its teaching and how we know the church's teaching.
October 3 at 12:04pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin Michael Beitia, for the purposes of the truly important discussion here I'm happy to posit the falsehood of polygenism. The pernicious tendency to reject the Church's teaching authority concerns me rather more than this.
October 3 at 12:10pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Joel, no one (Catholic) on this thread, so far as I know, thinks that the Church may change its teachings.
October 3 at 12:05pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Bolin, you have undermined the credibility of all dogmas. Then accuse others of disagreeing with your own opinion on the unknowability of what dogmas are de fide. You hide behind your own cloak of infallible scepticism. While disparaging others who point to authoratative documents as pontificating, you do the same. --> But this is Peregrinnism.
October 3 at 12:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But by all means keep on with your false humility about following the Church even where, per impossible, she were to deny what she previously asserted with infallible authority.
October 3 at 12:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin What's your answer to the question in my thought experiment, Joel?
October 3 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin John Ruplinger, can you cite a place where I have claimed to be infallible? Others on this thread have indeed made the claim that certain of their opinions are infallible.
October 3 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz made a claim about the teaching of the church on a specific point. If he is correct (i.e. the church already infallibly condemned polygenism) then he is correct that it would be impossible for the church to declare otherwise in the future.
He also claims, here i cannot over emphasize my agreement, that we may know the truths taught by the church with certainty. That there are more and less clear issues does not change this in principle.
October 3 at 12:10pm · Unlike · 6
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Andrew Whaley Who is this Polly and why would we not let her generate if she's married properly.
October 3 at 12:11pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger You deny that a list of doctrines of Church teaching can be drawn up. Can you be mistaken in that opinion?
October 3 at 12:12pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Of course I could be mistaken, Mr. Ruplinger. My judgments are not infallible.
October 3 at 12:16pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Joel, you didn't answer the question.
October 3 at 12:14pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley To be serious, the Church declared that there is no salvation outside of the Church and at the time and for a long time after all took that to mean only baptized practicing RC in a state of grace at death went to Heaven. The Church does not teach that now. Did she change or does this speak to the real humility and wonder in Mr. Bolin's position?
October 3 at 12:14pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Michael Bolin, as I'm not a theologian I don't pretend to know every doctrine of the church perfectly. As with mathematics, we are more certain of the more proximate demonstrations, so we are most certain of the clear and "more fundamental" truths of faith. But I would read such an encyclical, with absolute faith that it did not COULD NOT contradict the infallible canons of Trent.
October 3 at 12:15pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Are you then prepared to say in advance that if any future documents the Church puts out teach that polygenism is a permissible opinion, that this would show that the Catholic faith is false?
October 3 at 12:15pm · Like
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Joel HF ETA: I would have this confidence prior to reading the new encyclical, so that I'm clear.
October 3 at 12:16pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Using polygenism is a bad example since there is not clarity about it being taught as infallible. Use something like the Immaculate Conception.
October 3 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Why the hesitance to simply say yes or no?
October 3 at 12:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Why do i have to think anything about that? I'm not yet certain of what the church teaches (though monogenism seems overwhelmingly likely to be the teaching). But if the church were to, per impossible, change face on transubstantiation, to use your example, then such a change would be demonstrative that the church did not have the authority to teach infallibly.
October 3 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Andrew Whaley: Something very much like that is what got Fr. Feeney into trouble. He *knew,* with all the cockiness of Mr. Kenz, that his interpretation of the dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation" was infallible, and would have made all the same "Trent says" and "the Fathers and Popes say" claims that others here want to make about polygenism. And how did that turn out for him?
October 3 at 12:21pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Bc I'm not a theologian? Why the insistence on sophistical hypotheticals?
October 3 at 12:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joel: Why is this so hard? If you are not yet certain of what the Church teaches, then why don't you just say "No--I would not say that if the Church later teaches that polygenism is permissible, this would prove the Catholic faith false"?
October 3 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick The Church as church cannot teach error.
October 3 at 12:22pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Mr. Bolin, you contradict yourself then. For your only argument thus far has been that Joshua cannot know whether the authorities Joshua cites are infallible. You throw in a quote by Fr. Ratzinger that is not really pertinent.
October 3 at 12:22pm · Like
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Michael Bolin It seems very strange to me to be reluctant to affirm that one would not reject the Catholic faith just because the Church later teaches something to be permissible that one was unsure about in the first place.
October 3 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Explain yourself, John. I contradict myself by saying that my judgment is not infallible?
October 3 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick So if the Church as Church changed something she taught as Church then yes the Church would be false. If men in the Church taught something that was against what the Church as Church taught we would be in crisis, but the Church as church would not be false
October 3 at 12:24pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF Someone correct me, but wasn't Fenney received back into the church without repudiating or recanting?
October 3 at 12:24pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram I know that under no circumstances will any document released by the Church, UNDERSTOOD IN THE SENSE IN WHICH IT IS RATIFIED BY THE PAPACY (which is not necessarily the form in which it is released - cf. Chalcedon and the canon concerning Constantinople vis-a-vis Pope Leo) contradict a previous ecumenical Council. I know that Trent contradicts polygenism very soundly. So yes, Michael Bolin, I would stake my faith on it, because I do that with every encyclical and ecumenical Council.
October 3 at 12:24pm · Like · 6
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Michael Bolin Sure, Lauren, but the question here is about a particular.
October 3 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Tom: Just to be clear, you are saying that if a later Pope explicitly teaches that polygenism is a permissible opinion, you will conclude that the Catholic faith is false?
October 3 at 12:25pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram (to the degree that it contradicts Trent, which requires an investigation itself.)
My question is why you, now backpedaling into a separate issue, think it's totally acceptable to let the one where you were being obnoxious to Kenz die.
I have said that to the degree a later Pope in solemn teaching contradicts the proper magisterial understanding of an ecumenical Council, the Faith has already been falsified, so yes. I maintain that won't happen.
October 3 at 12:27pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Why the sudden hedge about "to the degree that it contradicts Trent"?
October 3 at 12:27pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram That is not a sudden hedge, Bolin. Read what I wrote before. It is the context of the entire argument.
October 3 at 12:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin So you admit that your judgment that "The Church teaches that polygenism is false" is possibly mistaken?
October 3 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman It makes more sense when truth is replaced with belief and dogma is replaced with principle.
October 3 at 12:28pm · Like
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Joel HF How is that a hedge? Is that not clearly the whole claim?
October 3 at 12:29pm · Like
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Joel HF I'll affirm, to the degree an infallible statement of the church contradicts a prior infallible statement of the church, the gig is up.
October 3 at 12:30pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin I agree with that, Joel, and have throughout. But it is not the question here.
October 3 at 12:30pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram That is not a sudden hedge, Bolin. Read what I wrote before. It is the context of the entire argument.
And cease trying to make me look like my argument is given from insecurity. If you are a man, argue like one and cease pretending that your opponent must be a nitwit. It's insulting.
October 3 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin The question is whether our judgment that "The Church teaches that polygenism is false" is infallible.
October 3 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin In fact, I know why you are both unwilling to say that you would reject the Faith if a future Pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible opinion. It is because although you believe that it is not, you know that your judgment about this could be mistaken.
October 3 at 12:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram No, that's not the issue, it's a fake argument based on subjecting every authoritative statement to significational doubt. You are essentially saying that it is impossible to declare the faith with certainty when it has been taught.
October 3 at 12:32pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Then give me a straight yes or no as to whether you would conclude that the Faith is false in that case.
October 3 at 12:32pm · Like
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Joel HF Yeah, you agree, you just also claim that no one can ever know "with certainty" what the teaching is. Why this means I'd have to privilege your imaginary pope over Tent, I can't say. After all, by your own false principles none of us would be sure of what the encyclical taught either. My guess is Trent would still be clearer.
October 3 at 12:34pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Tom Sundaram This is badgering. I gave you the only answer you will get. If you are saying what I think you are saying, this is totally facetious.
October 3 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joel, if you know "with certainty" what the teaching is, then you can give me a straight answer. If you don't know with certainty, you should without hesitation say that you would not reject the Faith because of it.
October 3 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Moreover, it's badgering into a rhetorical trap made out of glowing material and visible from space. I don't engage in this crap with anyone and I think it beneath fellow TACers.
October 3 at 12:35pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF In fact, your hypothetical is impossible on your own principles, since you would never be certain if the encyclical actually taught that polygenism was possible or not.
October 3 at 12:35pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger Bolin: it is clear you do not reject Kenz but Trent. By accusing Kenz and never addressing the decrees of Trent, you mask your disbelief. Kenz already has admitted to being mistaken in the past. You are baselessly accusing him except on the opinion of one theologian whose argument is not pertinent, a contention you never refuted.
October 3 at 12:36pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Bolin Why don't you answer the question, Joel?
October 3 at 12:36pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Because it's not a question. It's a stab disguised as a presentation of flowers.
October 3 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Mr. Ruplinger, this discussion is not about whether polygenism is false, and I will not discuss that question so long as the more important one remains unresolved.
October 3 at 12:37pm · Like
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Joel HF Bolin, you're being sophistical. What i know in fact with certainty is distinct from what can be known with certainty by humans.
October 3 at 12:37pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, you refuse to answer because it is apparent to you that the correct answer, namely that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible opinion (and by correct I mean I believe not only that you should not but also that you in fact would not reject the Faith), will require you to admit the Mr. Kenz is in error about this question.
October 3 at 12:38pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram OK EVERYONE I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT WHAT JUST HAPPENED.
Polygenism was the original subject. Bolin said it was okay, quoting Ratzinger. Kenz came back with Trent AND the PBC. Bolin then CHANGED the discussion to a claim that we can never REALLY know what Trent taught on the matter. When this was pointed out to eliminate the possibility of faith, Bolin redirected it to the (obnoxious) claim that since proper interpretation of canons is difficult, and many fear to interpret them, nobody can interpret them infallibly. This was not the point - in the case of Trent the intention was explicit.
Now we have tried to bring it back to polygenism and Bolin is fending it off by pretending like we are all heretics for asserting that Trent authoritatively censures polygenism, as such, when in fact that was exactly what Trent does. He has made no licit claim that we are misinterpreting Trent from the nature of Trent, but instead tries to cow us away from proclaiming the canons because "we could be wrong."
Very well. I can be wrong. If the Pope says I am wrong, I'll revert to obedience on it. BUT HE WON'T. Because I am right.
October 3 at 12:43pm · Like · 5
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Michael Bolin "If the Pope says I am wrong, I'll revert to obedience on it. BUT HE WON'T. Because I am right."
Wonderful. So then Mr. Kenz was in error when he said that if the Pope said this, it would prove the Faith false?
October 3 at 12:45pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram No, he was correct in saying that, for which reason I conclude that while it is possible for me to misspeak, it is not possible for the Church to do so. Hence my contention that he won't.
October 3 at 12:46pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley No, Tom, the question about certainty has run in parallel with the polygenism question, the whole time. And, Bolin is right (as Kenz admitted) that this "epistemological" question should, at least in this context, be answered first.
October 3 at 12:46pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Ugh. Well, I've not got the patience to discuss more ecclesiology as I have sworn it off for at least a couple more months, having had to write the thesis on it. Unless it has to do with canon law, I don't want to be part of the mess.
October 3 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin What are you saying, Tom? First you say that you would revert to obedience if the Pope said this, next you say that if the Pope said this it would prove the Faith false.
October 3 at 12:48pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley However, I agree with Kenz that there are items of natural knowledge that we know beyond any doubt and that there are several dogmas we can know infallibly to be true because of the gift of Faith.
October 3 at 12:48pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram See the goofy thing is that this argument of Bolin only makes sense if we are professing to speak ex cathedra. We aren't, but we are QUOTING AN AGENCY THAT IS.
October 3 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Edward: What's your answer to my question?
October 3 at 12:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley At a minimum, the propositions formed from the Nicene / Apostolic Creed as stated can be known by the gift of Faith infallibly
October 3 at 12:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Slow down,everyone.
October 3 at 12:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley While I think you're right about the certainty question, Michael, I refuse to answer the question on your terms.
October 3 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't think that anyone could say the question about polygenism has been settled.
October 3 at 12:51pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram I'm with Edward. This argument is a sorry setup.
October 3 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Daniel: If so, then why can't we immediately say that we would not reject the Faith if a future Pope taught that polygenism is a permissible opinion?
October 3 at 12:51pm · Like
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Michael Bolin As I would say.
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, to answer, Michael's thought experiment, I would say, "sure, I would consider polygenism again."
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram I'm done.
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Don't be done Tom.
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman This is important.
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Good. So then Mr. Kenz was wrong to say that if a Pope taught this it would prove the faith is false?
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Yeah, but my head hurts and I have a friend waiting for me at St. Peter's.
October 3 at 12:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think so, Michael. I think he might retract that statement.
October 3 at 12:53pm · Like
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Edward Langley But if, Michael's experiment were phrased in terms of the Immaculate Conception, I would deny it: if, per impossibile, the Pope were to use his authority to teach that Mary was conceived in sin, it would be a definitive disproof of the Catholic Faith on its own terms.
October 3 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Above he wrote that the issue of polygensim could be validly discussed.
October 3 at 12:53pm · Like
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Michael Bolin If so, I would like him to say so, because I don't see how this discussion can proceed with that hanging in the air.
October 3 at 12:53pm · Like
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Joel HF Bolin acts like his question takes precedence over everything else, including the clear refutations of his own errors. Why don't you take a break from the posterior question, and attempt to answer the arguments against your position, such as that it contradicts itself. What's more, obviously it is logically possible to give hypotheticals of papal teaching which would disprove at a minimum, the teaching on infallibility. So what? It gets you nowhere.
October 3 at 12:54pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin That's fine, Edward. Would you say the same about the polygenism one?
October 3 at 12:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley And my guess is that there would be a similar response about the con-/tran-substantiation question.
October 3 at 12:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Probably not, the only hesitation I have is that I don't know the context of the Trent Canons well enough.
October 3 at 12:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So, I think the only issue here is that some doctrines are taught less clearly than others.
October 3 at 12:55pm · Like
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Erik Bootsma I was talking about the rug.
October 3 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin So if you have hesitation, presumably there is at least some possibility of error. So then do you agree with me (and I think Daniel now?) that Mr. Kenz was wrong to say that if the Church later taught polygenism to be permissible, this would prove the Faith false?
October 3 at 12:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is possible to have infallible certainty about what the Church teaches, however.
October 3 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The problem with Michael's formulation of the question, is that the authority of the particular doctrine is itself under dispute, so any answer to it begs the question.
October 3 at 12:56pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF The hypo is stupid on so many levels. Including the vagueness of what is said. What does the pope actually say? This actually matters.
October 3 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Joshua's admission was only regarding pre ontological leap polygenism.
October 3 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin It begs the question to say you would not reject the Faith if the Pope taught that polygenism was a permissible opinion?
October 3 at 12:57pm · Like
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Edward Langley "So then do you agree with me (and I think Daniel now?) that Mr. Kenz was wrong to say that if the Church later taught polygenism to be permissible, this would prove the Faith false?"
I don't know what it would prove, I would have to study the authority of the texts in question to know the answer to your question.
October 3 at 12:57pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If Trent's canons teach monogenism, it would prove the Faith false; otherwise, it would not.
October 3 at 12:58pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Yes it does. Such as what one's opinion on polygenism is.
October 3 at 12:58pm · Like
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Edward Langley (et, mutati mutandis, the PBS and Humani Generis)
October 3 at 12:58pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Edward, those conditionals are not helpful here, because they're not under dispute. I agree that "If the Church teaches that what is false is true, it would disprove the Faith."
October 3 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Or more precisely, what Trent taught there.
October 3 at 12:59pm · Like
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Michael Bolin We cannot get anywhere if we are unwilling to make a statement about the particular question.
October 3 at 12:59pm · Like
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Joel HF I don't think you do actually agree, but I'm not certain.
October 3 at 12:59pm · Like
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Edward Langley And what is taught by Trent is a point at stake, so answering your question commits one to a position in the current discussion.
October 3 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Edward Langley has it. But can we be certain what he means?
October 3 at 1:00pm · Like
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Michael Bolin It does not commit you to a position on whether polygenism is false. I am not myself committed to a particular position on that question, yet I affirm without hesitation that I would not reject the Faith if a future pope teaches that polygenism is a permissible opinion.
October 3 at 1:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, we are agreed. If the pope taught infallibly that polygenism is on the table, then it could not have been repudiated absolutely by a council.
October 3 at 1:01pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley I lean to Kenz's side, namely, that the Church has definitively taught monogenism (especially because this is what I've heard from many sources that I trust).
October 3 at 1:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Daniel: YES!
October 3 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Thank you!
October 3 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward, even Kenz has acknowledged some dubitum about polgenism.\
October 3 at 1:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd formulate Daniel's statement in the opposite way, since "polygenism still being on the table" just doesn't seem to be a definable statement.
October 3 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is okay for not all doctrines to be as clearly taught.
October 3 at 1:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That's fair Edward.
October 3 at 1:03pm · Like
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Edward Langley i.e. If the Church hasn't already defined monogenism, then polygenism could be taught in the future without destroying the Faith.
October 3 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--no. We wouldn't even be certain. I'll prove this with a hypothetical. What if an even later Pope wrote another encyclical contradicting Bolin's pope? Would you then repudiate your faith?
October 3 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin The Pope could, in principle, forbid Catholics to claim that monogenism is a doctrine of faith.
October 3 at 1:04pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Joel: That question has a perfectly sensible answer, but I won't answer it until you answer my question.
October 3 at 1:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No. Because sometimes there is a question about doctrine that is not defined until later.
October 3 at 1:04pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm done.
October 3 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Sure, but an infallible teaching has to be taught as binding at all places and at all times, right?
October 3 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Yes.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes, what is a question now, cannot be a question later.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley *future times.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I don't understand what you mean, Daniel.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley so "the question is still open" is not a definable proposition.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Like
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Joel HF Just answer yes or no. It's such a simple question.
October 3 at 1:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sorry, there was a delete and now an edit.
October 3 at 1:06pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, yes it is.
October 3 at 1:06pm · Like
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Edward Langley To what are you answering, Michael? this is confusing.
October 3 at 1:06pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Likewise, questions like "What would you do if the Church taught that 2+2=5" have a perfectly sensible answer as well.
October 3 at 1:07pm · Like
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Michael Bolin My "Yes, yes it is" was in response to Joel's "It's such a simple question."
October 3 at 1:07pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Kenz was specific in what he meant, Daniel. Is Bolin playing here on an ambiguity?
October 3 at 1:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will throw out another hypothetical. If the Holy Father came out and gave an infallible proclamation that the Eucharist is not the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, then I would say that the pope is, a. Not the pope, actually, or b.) not actually speaking infallibly.
October 3 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I'm saying that "the question is still open" cannot be definable because it seems to necessarily not bind all future times.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or some c.) I haven't thought of.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is fair Edward.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So it would have to be according to the ordinary magesterium.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which we can and should follow in good ffaith.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like
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Michael Bolin This may surprise you, Daniel, but I think that is not unreasonable.
October 3 at 1:08pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Although, I suppose the Church could define that a question is undecidable.
October 3 at 1:09pm · Like
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Michael Bolin So, where are we? I think Daniel answered my question by saying "I would not reject the Faith", whereas Edward has thus far refused to say yes or no. Is that right?
October 3 at 1:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, just to be clear, what is the "that" that you are referring to?
October 3 at 1:10pm · Like
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Michael Bolin "If the Holy Father came out and gave an infallible proclamation that the Eucharist is not the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, then I would say that the pope is, a. Not the pope, actually, or b.) not actually speaking infallibly."
October 3 at 1:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have answered "yes" on one hypothesis and "no" on another hypothesis.
October 3 at 1:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh. I see.
October 3 at 1:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah.
October 3 at 1:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley . . . in true TAC fashion.
October 3 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin No, that's not answering the question, Edward, because the question is about would you would actually do. You can't do both.
October 3 at 1:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am not surprised that you find that "not unreasonable" Michael.
October 3 at 1:11pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I only phrase it that way because I refuse to get sidetracked.
October 3 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia this is an absurdist joke
October 3 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I understand.
October 3 at 1:13pm · Like
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Joel HF I prefer Protestantism to the sophistical modernism of Bolin.
October 3 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I haven't bought in you being an evil genius yet, Michael.
October 3 at 1:13pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Am I right, Daniel, that your answer to the question was that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope stated explicitly that polygenism was a permissible opinion?
October 3 at 1:14pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if the pope declares that something that was declared otherwise then it wasn't declared otherwise before, it must not have been declared before. Is this Orwell? Do we need a five year plan?
October 3 at 1:14pm · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF He isn't a genius, for one thing.
October 3 at 1:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "why would you specifically say "not a genius"
October 3 at 1:15pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Practically, if the Pope made such a declaration, I'd investigate to see if the various declarations could be reconciled.
October 3 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng "Bolin is not an hermaphrodite duck in a man costume" "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
I also enjoyed the debate and agree the underlying problem was epistemic and not w/r/t the issue of man's orgins. I would also like to hear more about that.
October 3 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Michael.
October 3 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And I don't know that I can articulate what a formal contradiction between revealed truths would look like, because of worries about equivocation.
October 3 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I also don't see enough evidence to call Michael a modernist.
October 3 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what!? that's absurd Daniel
October 3 at 1:20pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^Are you certain?
October 3 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Edward: doesn't the choice to investigate, itself, imply that you think it at least possible that your judgment that "The Church teaches that polygenism is false" is mistaken?
October 3 at 1:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope, here's the knife in the bouquet.
October 3 at 1:20pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Sure, but that's not a generalizable admission.
October 3 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin It's OK for now if it's not generalizable. You affirm, then, that you would not reject the Faith if a future Pope stated in a teaching document that polygenism is a permissible opinion?
October 3 at 1:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley If a future Pope actually did state such, I wouldn't reject the Faith because it would be impossible for him to teach a contradiction.
October 3 at 1:23pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin Wonderful. You agree, then, that Mr. Kenz was mistaken to say that if the Church said this, it would prove the Faith false?
October 3 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Orwellian
October 3 at 1:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley I can't judge that as far as the truth of the matter goes.
October 3 at 1:24pm · Like
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Michael Bolin What does that mean?
October 3 at 1:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley But I know that I myself do not have sufficient certainty to reject the Faith on that basis.
October 3 at 1:25pm · Like
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Joel HF The sophism is so rank.
October 3 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Whither is Bolin driving? Is he basing his investigations of polygenism on the hypothetical retractions of an imaginary pope?
October 3 at 1:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know the truth of monogenism nor the authority with which it has been taught.
October 3 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin We're not talking about whether polygenism is true, Mr. Ruplinger.
October 3 at 1:26pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Edward: So do you mean then that you personally do not have that certitude, and so would not reject the Faith in the hypothetical case, but that Mr. Kenz might be legitimately certain enough to reject the faith in that hypothetical?
October 3 at 1:27pm · Like
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Joel HF Bolin is being a modernist, and shockingly, fooling a few folks.
October 3 at 1:27pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Yes, to Bolin.
October 3 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Or, in extremis, if Francis stated such, Benedict XVI might have enough certitude.
October 3 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram I have a better hypothetical to illustrate the absurdity. Suppose a future Pope proclaimed sola scriptura, also censured by Trent and the PBC. Would THAT seem a reasonable "hypothetical"? If not, you see my annoyance at the current one.
October 3 at 1:28pm · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF I'll affirm it even if Edward doesn't. I may not be certain, but sometime else may be.
October 3 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think many here are missing Bolin's point.
October 3 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin What is it that you are affirming, Joel?
October 3 at 1:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope his modernist point has been stabbed home
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I'm not entirely sure about that, Matthew J. Peterson. I think some see the point and do not want to run into it, which is why they refuse to answer the question.
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't think we are, Matthew, we just know that Bolins like trapping people.
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict poop
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Darn it, I wanted "poop" to be comment 29,000
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and as far as Feeney goes, and Unam Sanctam, has anyone actually read the excommunication?
October 3 at 1:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Isak, then it matches the previous 28999
October 3 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF That mr. Kenz may be legitimately certain about some dogma (including e.g. polygenism) where i am not. I said as much initially.
October 3 at 1:30pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Edward: But Mr. Kenz also insinuated, as I understood him, that it was heretical to suggest that polygenism is a permissible opinion, which suggests that the claim was not merely about his personal certitude but that all Catholics should have it.
October 3 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But I do want to add that as I follow this argument, I am not really certain why there is so much anger being directed at Michael Bolin. More on this later. Classes to teach.
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Let me play advocatus Bolinensis for a moment: People keep on saying "Trent teaches polygenism is false," but clearly Trent wasn't concerned with the question of polygenism, and so a re-interpretation of that passage of Trent would be totally different than to (say) deny the doctrine of original sin (which is what that passage teaches). And then they cite Humani Generis (which Tom Sundaram in keeping with his habit of misattribution attributed to Trent), but HG seems to be saying _not_ that polygenism is false, but rather that the faithful are not at liberty to hold it because it is not clear how it could be reconciled with Sacred Scripture and with Trent.
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Sure, if I were to hold it, I might be committing material heresy.
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes, that follows from the nature of the thing he has certainty about.
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Joel: So if you are not yourself certain, why would you hesitate to say "If a future Pope taught that polygenism were a permissible opinion, I would not reject the Faith"?
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram I tend to think all Catholics should obey ecumenical councils too.
October 3 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Pater - I am referring to the passages cited from Trent by Josh earlier. But I'll take HG too if you want.
October 3 at 1:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Feeney was censured for denying BOD & BOB.
October 3 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Pater Edmund: Thank you, but is it not clear that at the moment there is something more fundamental at stake than the truth or falsity of polygenism?
October 3 at 1:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Can one be certain of dogma of the faith or must one hedge "well, the church may tech otherwise in the future" in all cases?
October 3 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, to quote the excommunication:
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children”
October 3 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The interesting thing is, holding monogenism doesn't run the risk of material heresy, since there are no definitions at stake. Holding polygenism does run that risk.
October 3 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram As to my "habit" of misattribution, I believe that is a bit more exaggerated than fair.
October 3 at 1:34pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF Feeney never repudiated and was in good standing at his death, afaik.
October 3 at 1:34pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I would like to get to the general case, Joel, but we seem unable to get past the particular because folks are afraid to answer a simple question.
October 3 at 1:34pm · Like
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Michael Bolin That's true, Edward.
October 3 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia read the quote, it isn't the universalist clap-trap we hear these days, Joel
October 3 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund (I was just teasing about the misattribution Tom)
October 3 at 1:34pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF No, plenty have answered it. What is your answer if transubstantiation were substituted?
October 3 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Answer my question and I will answer yours, Joel.
October 3 at 1:35pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Michael Bolin, how do you distinguish your issues about personal certainty of doctrine/mutability of doctrine/whatev from that of a modernist? I perhaps have missed the places you made this distinction.
October 3 at 1:36pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I did answer yours.
October 3 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Guys, guys. Let's all calm down. We really need to wait and see what scientists decide about Original Sin before we make any claims to theological certainty on the matter.
October 3 at 1:37pm · Unlike · 5
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Pater Edmund Michael Bolin, I still think the specific case is helpful for understanding the underlying question. IF Trent had said "if anyone teaches polygenism, let him be anathema," then the question would be closed. But since it only touches the question indirectly (by calling Adam "the first man," and saying that original sin is a single sin), the case is different.
October 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Adrw, there are too many people flinging out baseless accusations and poorly thought-through positions for it to make sense to deal with the more general question at the moment.
October 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram St Peter's says hi everyone
October 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Just a helpful note. I asked Joshua above about whether the possibility of polygenism could be discussed taking into consideration the considerable obstacles to it, authoritative and otherwise and this is what he said: "Possibility of being discussed? Maybe, but held, argued for? It is in no way permitted to hold this is how he starts off."
October 3 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Why does that matter, would you change your position if I answered in different ways?
October 3 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund is saying the same thing I am saying.
October 3 at 1:38pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Michael Bolin, do you agree that IF an ecumenical Council were to say "if anyone teaches polygenism, let him be anathema," then the question would be closed? But of course this hasn't happened.
October 3 at 1:38pm · Like · 6
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John Ashman Infallible™
October 3 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward,that was a good point: "The interesting thing is, holding monogenism doesn't run the risk of material heresy, since there are no definitions at stake. Holding polygenism does run that risk."
October 3 at 1:39pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Given that HG interprets Trent I think that the polygenism question is a bit more determined doctrinally now.
October 3 at 1:40pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman By the way, this is marvelous: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Amazing-moment-humpback...
Huge humpback whale waves at tourist boat as it leaps from the ocean
The photos, taken by marine tour guide Steven Benjamin...
DAILYMAIL.CO.UK
October 3 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But that still speaks to Michael's point, Tom. Or at least my point I am making in Michael's argument. Some doctrines are more or less clearly defined.
October 3 at 1:41pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Pater Edmund: The question would be closed in the way it is closed with other such dogmas, such as transubstantiation. That is, we could be sufficiently certain that the Church was teaching that polygenism is false that, were she later to teach the contrary, we might be more certain that a contradiction was taught than we are of the arguments establishing the Church's authority in the first place. And then, as Daniel said about transubstantiation, it could follow, per impossibile, that the Church was false.
October 3 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Some church doctrines can be known with infallible certitude. Others, not so much.
October 3 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Just so, I am not afraid to say that if the Church clearly taught that 2+2=5, I would reject the Church as a legitimate teaching authority.
October 3 at 1:42pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, Daniel, that is not what I said.
October 3 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know, Michael.
October 3 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is what I say.
October 3 at 1:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Andrew Whaley Daniel Lendman What if the Church said the whale never really left the water?
October 3 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Can someone, having the gift of Faith, hold the dogma of transubstantiation with less than infallible certitude?
October 3 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I'm beginning to get the sense that a significant number of people here actually don't agree with what Mr. Kenz initially claimed, though some are reluctant to say so.
October 3 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, Edward, since something false cannot be believed with divine faith.
October 3 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin But the difficulty is that we cannot be absolutely certain that we hold a given proposition by divine faith.
October 3 at 1:46pm · Unlike · 1
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Adrw Lng They are making a distinction which was lost in the (very enjoyable and manly) theological sparring you two were having
October 3 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Have to go, but leave you with a quote from St Ignatius: «Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.»
October 3 at 1:46pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman First rule of infallibility is no one is infallible. Not even the Pope.
October 3 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Pater Edmund, I think that's a hyperbolic way of stating my basic position.
October 3 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley At risk of stirring the pot, what if polygenism turns out to be true and proven so?
October 3 at 1:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Mr. Ashman, God loves you.
October 3 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Joshua is right that such a position is empirically impossible to prove Andrew
October 3 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ^I think this is right.
October 3 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is the 500-pound gorilla in the room: "3. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema."
October 3 at 1:49pm · Edited · Like · 9
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Michael Bolin Daniel: I might add that this is also the problem with Joshua's use of St. Thomas (as pointed out to me by another Thomist by whom I ran the argument). It is true that the gift of wisdom judges infallibly, but to have the gifts, including wisdom, requires charity, and St. Thomas himself says that we cannot have absolute certitude that we have charity. Hence, we cannot have absolute certitude that we are judging a given proposition by the gift of wisdom.
October 3 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman My wife says so. Also.....you have completed step 1 of Catholic renewing me.
October 3 at 1:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, that is why the study of Church teachings is so important.
October 3 at 1:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And Church History.
October 3 at 1:50pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley I'm way out of my league here, but do we not have corpses of 100% Neanderthals and have genetic proof that Homo sapiens breeded with them? Would we then just say that they are both the same species and there is new understanding of the variance in our species?
October 3 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Yes, I don't see how polygenism could be absolutely proven by science. It seems to me that the possibility of human / non-human interbreeding could always explain any evidence.
October 3 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But Michael's position also shows why Scott's obsession with "how many dogmas do we study at TAC?" is a silly one.
October 3 at 1:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^Which is gross.
October 3 at 1:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin I suspect that Scott thinks dogma is even more black and white than many here.
October 3 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Edward, again, there is no question about what you call the gorilla in the room.
October 3 at 1:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am going to go breath with both lungs of the Church and pray the akathist. I will remember you all in my prayer.s.
October 3 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Dogmas cannot change, nor can the Church teach contrary to what she has previously taught.
October 3 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Church history is littered with fallibility.
October 3 at 1:54pm · Like
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John Ashman Listening to "working at perfekt"... Geddy Lee.
October 3 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia If: through 1 man sin entered the world
then: . . . . . . ?
October 3 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley As far as I can tell, most of the argument is a commentary on the "given the advancement of knowledge" part.
October 3 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I still don't get it. Why did Michael Bolin bring up the per impossibile example about transubstantiation last night if he didn't think it was a doctrine that could change? Maybe I'm not following. Y'all talk too fast. Plus I'm not even supposed to be here.
October 3 at 2:00pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe If all Michael Bolin meant was "hey, I'm not sure you're understanding Trent correctly," then why didn't he just say so?
October 3 at 2:01pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman Original sin is a sales technique. You create a problem that the customer doesn't know he has. Then offer to fix it. Church.....expanded
October 3 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Samantha, I did say that, and repeatedly. And I do not think that dogmas can change.
October 3 at 2:02pm · Like
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Michael Bolin John Ashman, why do you insist on trolling?
October 3 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--he did say that, though he appears to be walking it back
October 3 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Bolin has shifted his position several times already.
October 3 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau They were comparing another dogma (transubstantiation) with the dogmas surrounding creation as an extreme example. Playing a 'what if' game -- i.e.: how far do you believe the infallibility of the Church can go (when it appears to contradict itself and/or 'truth' aka scientific truth)
October 3 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Joel, are you saying that I did say that dogma can change? If so, either provide a citation or recant, or I'm done with you.
October 3 at 2:05pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Look what you people have driven me to! Look at it!
October 3 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF How can you be certain of what I said?
October 3 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, "If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema."
October 3 at 2:07pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Just tangentially . . .
October 3 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF My problem is that you don't believe that Faith is certain. And that you said you'd change your views on transubstantiation and now say you wouldn't. And that you argue sophistically. Other than that, we have no problems.
October 3 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin You misunderstand. I said that there is no reason in principle why I could not become more certain that the Church is now teaching that the bread remains than I am that she formerly taught that it does not. I stand by that.
I also said that I could become more certain that the Church is teaching a contradiction than I am of the arguments for the Church's authority. I stand by that too.
October 3 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I would also like to point out that Pater Edmund's Ignatius quote entails a view that is repugnant to reason.
October 3 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF So I guess, we affirm a lot of the same things, but we seem to use the words to mean different things.
October 3 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Samantha, it's a hyperbolic way of affirming a view that is quite in accord with reason.
October 3 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Faith isn't probabilistic. One trusts the church to teach what one ought to believe, but by that same token, one trusts the church not to blatantly contradict itself in infallible statements. If, per impossible, it did so contradict itself, than by that hypothesis the faith or the church or reason is untrue. Take your pick.
October 3 at 2:12pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin To conflate "changing one's view on transubstantiation" with "the dogma of transubstantiation changing" is quite close to the heart of the problem that folks here are having.
October 3 at 2:12pm · Like
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Michael Bolin My pick is that the Church would be untrue in that case.
October 3 at 2:13pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Isn't there a prima facie inconsistency in saying that one could hold x proposition only by divine faith while at the same time maintaining there are grounds to question the certitude of the assent to such propositions of faith? (Provided that x position is not misunderstood)
October 3 at 2:21pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Again, the conflation. The truths of faith are not probabilistic, but that does not mean that our judgments about them are not probabilistic.
October 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley Are there limits to "changing one's view" imposed by the canons of councils, etc.?
October 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And here we come back to the bolin epistemology in which we apparently cannot be certain we understand even what the Church clearly teaches
October 3 at 2:14pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick Interacting with other people on Facebook makes me appreciate this place more...
October 3 at 2:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes, so if Kenz can prove that the church taught infallibly on polygenisism, (well, regardless of if HE can do so, if he is right about the fact of it) then for it to contradict itself means either the church or the faith or reason itself is wrong.
October 3 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Samantha, not "certain" in the way some here wish to mean, but certain in the way people normally use the word.
October 3 at 2:15pm · Like
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Michael Bolin That is true, Joel. But it is in accord with my position, and it is not what Mr. Kenz was maintaining, as I understood it.
October 3 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and both of Joel's choices are unpalatable, at best.
October 3 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Tom, that is some really weak sauce... "a bit more determined doctrinally" still means, "not fully doctorine".
Oh... and while you're in Rome, can you tag Pope Benedict in for us?
October 3 at 2:16pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF No conflation on my part, Bolin. I say we DO have faith with certainty--though obviously not everyone will know everything with the same clarity and all at once. Just so, I've rejected views I held once on the authority of the church.
October 3 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So by certain you mean almost certain
October 3 at 2:16pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin, I mean
October 3 at 2:17pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Again, the issue is that the truths of the faith are not held in a probabilistic mode when they are held as faith. That my faith is certain is not a probabilistic judgement. Am I missing something?
October 3 at 2:17pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin I mean that we are certain of many things about which we can nonetheless be mistaken.
October 3 at 2:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Three choices, Michael Beitia: Reason, the church's authority, or revelation generally.
October 3 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia we don't have #specialdogmagnosis
October 3 at 2:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin That "What is held by divine faith is true" is certain. But when you say "I hold X [some specific claim] by divine faith," that is not certain.
October 3 at 2:18pm · Like
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Michael Bolin My point exactly, Michael Beitia.
October 3 at 2:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think that that is incorrect, the hashtag gnosis is a running joke here
October 3 at 2:19pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Yes, I know.
October 3 at 2:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think we can be certain that we're certain, otherwise the whole thing is a joke
October 3 at 2:19pm · Like · 4
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Michael Bolin But nonetheless what you said is actually true.
October 3 at 2:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nope.
October 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Joel HF That one may be a material heretic and then instructed into the correct faith does not contradict the certainty of faith in anyway. Heck, Mr. Shield's demonstrated to me that Monothelitism was contradicted by the scriptures freshman year.
October 3 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin That's what Descartes wanted, but it is not the true nature of the human mind.
October 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so *you* have #specialhumanmindgnosis
October 3 at 2:20pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, I do not claim that my judgments are infallible, unlike others here.
October 3 at 2:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There can be certainty, but you can never know when you have it?
October 3 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Yes.
October 3 at 2:21pm · Like
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Adrw Lng That's absurd, don't you see?
October 3 at 2:22pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Literally absurd
October 3 at 2:22pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin So do we know that we have certainty that polygenism is false?
October 3 at 2:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oops, there's a pivot
October 3 at 2:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley Certainty about certainty, to me, sounds like motion to motion.
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're a slippery one
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Do we?
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia except he's certain his judgments aren't certain. won't budge on that one.....
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley It's the kind of regress that can only be prevented if cut off at the first member: there's just certainty just like there's just motion.
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng #hermaphroditeduckuncertainty
October 3 at 2:24pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Not you, Ed.
October 3 at 2:25pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia ^gnosis
October 3 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin OK, Edward, then do we have certainty that polygenism is false?
October 3 at 2:25pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Bolin is slippery.
October 3 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia why do you get bogged down in particulars
October 3 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe We had him pinned and he slipped away
October 3 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley I don't know what certainty the Magisterium has about polygenism. I have some certainty but not complete certainty.
October 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Bolin, I think it can be said that we don't understand some dogmas as well as others. But you are calling all dogmas into question.
October 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia God created the world. of this I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain
October 3 at 2:27pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin Samantha, that is because I have actually had the discussion many times, and have thought it through. Others here are afraid to answer simple questions because they are afraid of being trapped, because they have not thought these things through.
October 3 at 2:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain that I am certain
October 3 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My point is, that your claim that you can't be certain that you hold a dogma by divine faith, is a specious position.
October 3 at 2:28pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger Doctrine of predestination comes to my mind.
October 3 at 2:28pm · Like
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Michael Bolin "I have some certainty but not complete certainty."
That's fine. Remember that this whole thing started with me being accused of heresy for saying that we do not have certainty about polygenism.
October 3 at 2:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley A dogma either has the certainty of divine Faith or it does not: and that depends, at least in part, on how that doctrine has been proposed.
October 3 at 2:29pm · Like
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Michael Bolin No, it is not specious, but obviously true. Otherwise we could not disagree about which things are dogma.
October 3 at 2:29pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes, dogmas have the certainty of divine faith. But we do not have absolute certainty that we hold any particular dogma by divine faith.
October 3 at 2:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how do you not get killed crossing the solipsistic street?
October 3 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng "Hence the common saying of Modernists: that the religious man must ponder his faith."
October 3 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #tgifgnosis
October 3 at 2:42pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 75 more minutes, not that I'm counting
October 3 at 2:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling..."
October 3 at 2:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "it is not the hot nor the cold but the lukewarm I will vomit forth"
October 3 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A matter of divine faith can be posed to you in such a way that you don't hold it with the certitude of divine faith. But that is because you don't hold it explicitly by the virtue of divine faith: rather, that proposition is virtually contained in your virtue of Faith and explicitly as an opinion. Consequently, for you, it only has the certitude of opinion.
October 3 at 2:45pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In which case, we cannot be certain that we hold a particular proposition explicitly by divine faith.
October 3 at 2:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley As Dr. MacArthur says, faith has greater certitude than any knowledge and less clarity. Consequently, one would be less inclined to doubt something held by divine Faith than Prop. I of Euclid.
October 3 at 2:54pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau But doesn't holding something by faith mean that we aren't clear on the details but can have a greater certainty than things known by other means. e.g.: Trinity.
October 3 at 2:49pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley So, any lack of certitude would seem to indicate that that matter is not held by divine faith, but is only, formally, a natural belief.
October 3 at 2:52pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau One might die for God but not for prop 1 Euclid. That is certainty.
October 3 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But the faith Bolin describes seems wracked by innumerable uncertainties when it is most certain of all. Polygenesis even the tenable kind is most uncertain.
October 3 at 2:55pm · Like
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John Ashman Supercanonisticexpertallegedgnosis
October 3 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Certainty is that feeling you have just before or during the fall.
October 3 at 2:58pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Michael does seem to say that what the church teaches must meet with his rational assessment of it. Perhaps I haven't read his comments carefully enough.
October 3 at 3:00pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau On the other hand, I would rather say that if the Church taught something as doctrine which didn't mesh with my understanding, I would assume the flaw was in me; not in the teaching.
October 3 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is crazy to use an irrational example of 'what would you do if' because the Church cannot contradict the truth (e.g.: if 2+2 =5)
October 3 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, now it is starting to sound like modernism.
October 3 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how about this one:
That Adam was not created by God subject to death
That whosoever says that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body— that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity, let him be anathema.
October 3 at 3:11pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I agree with Michael Beitia, I am certain that the consecrated host is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman ^Infallibly certain.
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger The Faith like a little child (or an angel - yesterday's gospel) is greatest and most certain. Indeed as we increase in the virtue of faith we become more certain (special trials of faith excepted).
October 3 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I am only certain that I am infallibly certain...
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman uhoh.
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia certainly certain
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nevermind.
October 3 at 3:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what about the canon I cited just above, Daniel?
October 3 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia is it a clear teaching of the Church?
October 3 at 3:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or should it read:
That whoever says that Adams, the first men, evolved mortal..... etc etc
October 3 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I like that canon.
October 3 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Everyone acts as if all this stuff just is known the same way throughout history. The conversation is premised on the fact that understandings change over time.
God is one.
What does that mean? Enter philosophy. Simply. One. Wow.
God is triune.
What?!? MODERNIST. That's IMPOSSIBLE. What did you mean by saying God is one. And all those explanations?!? Seemed to rule out this possibility entirely. God can never be three.
Nope. Still one. But also trinity. Enter theology and philosophy debates again, etc.
October 3 at 3:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's a bad example. Look at the canon I just posted, Matthew.
October 3 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and the Apostle's Creed mentions the trinity.
October 3 at 3:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so the definition of "first" has changed?
October 3 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia oh you moderns with your fine distinctions. Let's distinguish with a hatchet!
October 3 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Now for a particular case that may allow us to see the general truth.
Suppose someone, whom I'll call Leonard F., asserts the following: "I believe, by explicit divine faith, that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and that baptism of desire does not avail for salvation. Since what is believed by explicit divine faith cannot be in error, I cannot be mistaken about my belief. Therefore baptism of desire does not avail for salvation."
Now another person, whom I'll call Alphonsus L., asserts the following: "I believe, by explicit divine faith, that baptism of desire avails for salvation. Since what is believed by explicit divine faith cannot be in error, I cannot be mistaken about my belief. Therefore baptism of desire avails for salvation."
Must one of these two men be lying, or is it possible that each believes that he speaks the truth?
October 3 at 3:51pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't understand these examples to be the same kind of thing. But maybe I'm lacking sleep
October 3 at 3:47pm · Like
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Edward Langley "If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.", Matthew J. Peterson
October 3 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Notice, advance of knowledge is explicitly irrelevant to the understanding of dogmas.
October 3 at 3:49pm · Like
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Joel HF Or is that a false dichotomy?
October 3 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Quit posing stupid traps and speak plainly.
October 3 at 3:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Edited for clarity: "in good faith" did not mean faith in the theological sense.
October 3 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin I will not discuss this further with anyone who will not answer that question.
October 3 at 3:51pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No one has denied that we can be mistaken about particular articles of faith. As your example shows, it is often about the harder to grasp articles that are as in this case not clearly defined, ie. BOB & BOD.
October 3 at 3:54pm · Like
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Michael Bolin So, John, you are saying that is possible for both men to believe that what they are saying is true?
October 3 at 3:55pm · Like
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John Ashman Fire all canons!
October 3 at 3:56pm · Like
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John Ruplinger yes. But I cannot judge the internal forum and know whether they have lost Faith. You are trying to draw a rule from an exception.
October 3 at 4:00pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Great. So you admit that it is possible for someone to honestly believe that he holds some doctrine by explicit divine faith, and yet be mistaken?
October 3 at 4:02pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger yes. What is your point?
October 3 at 4:03pm · Like
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Michael Bolin That we cannot know with certainty, just because we think that we hold something by explicit divine faith, that we actually do hold it by explicit divine faith.
October 3 at 4:05pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In other words, the claim to the contrary, made by most here, is false.
October 3 at 4:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you draw your rule from the exception.
October 3 at 4:10pm · Like
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Michael Bolin In my example, BOD is irrelevant. We can replace it with any doctrine whatsoever, and the same will follow.
October 3 at 4:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger So you deny the certainty of faith and the certainty of all dogmas because one can be mistaken about a particular dogma.
October 3 at 4:21pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But the doctrines are certain?
October 3 at 4:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But we can never be certain of any doctrine because of a mistake on an obscure doctrine?
October 3 at 4:24pm · Like
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Michael Bolin You part ways with your comrades in saying that one can be mistaken about a particular dogma. I suspect, though, that they will not criticize you for this.
October 3 at 4:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Actually, I think most have agreed. But it is our condition that although we conform to almost all doctrine and with divine faith and certainty yet we can be wrong about a particular doctrine. No one denies this.
October 3 at 4:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't think it affects our certainty but may help us with humility and charity. But you seem to draw from this a false uncertainty wrt all doctrine.
October 3 at 4:36pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I think you fail to understand. Consider my example again, except instead of BOD, one party says that he believes, by explicit divine faith, transubstantiation, while the other says that he believes, by explicit divine faith, consubstantiation. Is it possible for both to believe what they say?
October 3 at 4:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Less likely I should say
October 3 at 4:38pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin Ah! So here we finally have the means to distinguish doctrines about which we can be mistaken from those about which we cannot. When another person says, "I'm not sure X is a dogma," we have only to peer into his soul, and if he is *lying*, we know that X is a dogma about which we cannot be mistaken.
October 3 at 4:40pm · Like
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Joel HF This has been said before, but yes, one may be wrong about something one thinks one is certain of. But this doesn't stop the fact that one may also be correct and certain that one is correct.
October 3 at 4:40pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Wilee Coyote always falls, eventually.
October 3 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger not lying.
October 3 at 4:42pm · Like
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Joel HF Can one be certain? No, because maybe one is mistaken. Ugh! I reject this specious argument!
October 3 at 4:42pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Being in error feels exactly the same as being right.
October 3 at 4:43pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Exactly.
October 3 at 4:43pm · Like
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Joel HF "Everyone knows Custer died at Little Big Horn. What my faith presupposes is, maybe he didn't?"
October 3 at 4:43pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Just like for the poor coyote, it feels the same running on land as it does to run in the air.
October 3 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The difference, between the coyote and roadrunner, is that the roadrunner is right.
October 3 at 4:44pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Joel, how does one distinguish between cases in which one is certain that one is correct, yet is wrong, and cases in which one is certain that one is correct, and is in fact correct?
The position proposed by so many here requires that there be a means of so distinguishing, yet no one has proposed one.
October 3 at 4:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And eventually the coyote falls.
October 3 at 4:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is how he knows he is in error.
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Do you have a suggestion for how to so distinguish, Daniel?
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, in the case of the faith, when you run into an anathema, you fall.
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman For example.
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger no. We need merely refer to the Church's teaching, not the same as any pope before elected btw
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But eventually the coyote always falls.
October 3 at 4:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Why does there have to be? I'm unsure that there does need to be.
October 3 at 4:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Slippery Michael Bolin is saying that no one can be certain they have certain faith. But that means no one has certain faith. So in what sense is faith certain?
October 3 at 4:46pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger what Daniel said.
October 3 at 4:47pm · Like
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Michael Bolin All right, Daniel, you need to answer my question then. You believe that you hold the doctrine of transubstantiation by divine faith. Suppose there is another person who is just as sure as you are, that he holds the doctrine of consubstantiation. How to distinguish?
October 3 at 4:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ugh, why does my house not clean itself?
October 3 at 4:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where's my robot maid?
October 3 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Modernity is the worst.
October 3 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I would prove I am right to the confused soul by pointing to clear Church teaching.
October 3 at 4:48pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I hold the doctrine of consubstantiation, but I'm not as certain as Daniel.
October 3 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger anathema sis
October 3 at 4:48pm · Like
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Andrew Whaley Michael, because he is wrong and we are right.
October 3 at 4:48pm · Like
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Michael Bolin And this person would be equally as confident as you are, only that the doctrine is of consubstantiation.
October 3 at 4:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, but I'm not equally confident
October 3 at 4:49pm · Like
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Michael Bolin So, it has come down to this. "I know that I cannot be wrong because I am right, therefore I cannot be wrong."
October 3 at 4:49pm · Like
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Joel HF No one needs to answer your questions, Socrates you aren't. And you rarely deign to answer others questions, such as Mrs. Samantha Cohoe's.
October 3 at 4:49pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman But, I just point to the Church's clear teaching.
October 3 at 4:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe no, Daniel's confidence comes from the fact that his Church has infallibly taught it
October 3 at 4:49pm · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe it has also clearly taught it.
October 3 at 4:50pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman And I can point to that teaching.
October 3 at 4:50pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Bolin So, I know that the Church has infallibly taught this because the Church has infallibly taught this?
October 3 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Andrew Whaley It's not Wiley coyote off the cliff. It's Kierkagaard leaping into the dark. I guess it's too jumpers proving who will leap the farthest in the most dark.
October 3 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman BINGO!
October 3 at 4:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Do you only read the responses you want to hear?
October 3 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin That's the whole point, Daniel. The opponent will also believe that he can point to Church teaching.
October 3 at 4:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, he knows its true because the Church infallibly taught it
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Find an opponent who believes consubstantiation based on Church teaching!!
October 3 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman No, Michael, in this instance he can't.
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Such a person cannot read!!
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Church is too clear on this matter.
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Such a person has a seriously disordered ability to reason!
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Daniel, you are confusing the unlikely with the impossible.
October 3 at 4:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You simply fail to recognize that some doctrines are more clearly taught than others.
October 3 at 4:52pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Do not draw rules from exceptions.
October 3 at 4:52pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF @bolin can truth be known with certainty? And can faith hold an dogma with certainty?
October 3 at 4:52pm · Like
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Michael Bolin It is unlikely to be sure, which is why Catholics don't in fact propose that the Church teaches consubstantiation. But any time we are dealing with a case in which people actually disagree whether something is dogma, both will be able to point to reasons for thinking so.
October 3 at 4:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not always.
October 3 at 4:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Slippery Michael Bolin refuses to answer my excellent question.
October 3 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Bolin What question?
October 3 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And, typically, one can point to a document that lays out the matter clearly.
October 3 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not all doctrines are very clearly taught, however.
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If no one has certain faith, in what sense is faith certain?
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Daniel, you have yet to say why you cannot be wrong that "the Church teaches transubstantiation," other than to reassert that the Church teaches it.
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which is why I think it is still okay to discuss polygenism as a possibility,
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Michael Bolin It is certain in the sense that what is believed by divine faith cannot be in error.
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin What is the difference between a doctrine which is clearly taught and one which is not?
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, why do I need to say more than that?
October 3 at 4:54pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe that's inerrancy, not certainty
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe certainty resides in the mind of the knower
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't know that there is a black and white difference Dominic. I wouldn't dare to make a list.
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If I have faith, but not certainty, then my faith isn't certain
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Because if you can say that, then I can say "I cannot be wrong that the Church teaches consubstantiation, because the Church teaches consubstantiation."
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I simply point to the more known and understand the less known by them.
October 3 at 4:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is the natural way.
October 3 at 4:55pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, you can't say that, because the Church doesn't teach consubstantiation, and that is completely knowable.
October 3 at 4:56pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Ah, but Michael the Church not only does not teach consubstantiation it condemns it.
October 3 at 5:23pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Dominic Bolin But if we cannot distinguish them in principle, are we just relying on intuition when we say that one is clearly taught and another is not?
October 3 at 4:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Knowable as a fact and knowable by faith.
October 3 at 4:56pm · Like
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Michael Bolin I think this discussion is nearing its end. People are actually taking "I am right" to be an argument for why they are right.
October 3 at 4:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia anathemas tend to be clear
October 3 at 4:57pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Anathemas are super clear.
October 3 at 4:57pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It's one of the things you guys have going for you
October 3 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the creed is clear
October 3 at 4:57pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Dominic, some cases are not clear. The creed, as Michael Beitia points out, is very clear.
October 3 at 4:57pm · Like
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Michael Bolin "Super clear" does not translate to "I am infallible."
October 3 at 4:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ??? who said that??
October 3 at 4:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia only if you persist in error are the anathemas unclear
October 3 at 4:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ah, do you mistake the source of infallibility?
October 3 at 4:58pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman My infallibility does not arise from me.
October 3 at 4:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe People are claiming that the Church is clear enough that anyone can understand her when she speaks clearly
October 3 at 4:58pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe that's all. It doesn't take infallibility to be able to understand clear statements
October 3 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My infallibility about the Church's teaching arises from the Church's infallible teaching.
October 3 at 4:59pm · Like · 3
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Michael Bolin This is what I thought. People believe that "The Church is infallible" implies "I am infallible."
October 3 at 4:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, in that vein, I am not infallible. The Church is infallible and teaches certain things to be thus.
October 3 at 4:59pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Is there a reason to think that the clarity is not just a matter of degree?
October 3 at 4:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where does what you are saying end? What that the Church teaches can you know with certainty?
October 3 at 5:00pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin The kind of certainty you are looking for, Samantha, does not exist in the human mind apart from the beatific vision.
October 3 at 5:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Bolinese
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe So you don't think anything the Church teaches can be known with certainty until we're with God?
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like
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Michael Bolin Yes.
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mind. Blown.
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin Not in the way that you seem to understand certainty.
October 3 at 5:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Wow.
October 3 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Bolin Sure, all of us suffer from the temptation, at one time or another, to want to be like God.
October 3 at 5:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, let's all take note of this, then.
October 3 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe For the record, one more time, Michael Bolin does not think anything the Church teaches can be known with certainty on this side of death.
October 3 at 5:03pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Bolin you are confusing the certainty of faith with incontrovertable certainty.
October 3 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman "The spirit of this plan of reform [of modernism] may be summarized under the following heads:
A spirit of complete emancipation, tending to weaken ecclesiastical authority; the emancipation of science, which must traverse every field of investigation without fear of conflict with the Church; the emancipation of the State, which should never be hampered by religious authority; the emancipation of the private conscience whose inspirations must not be overridden by papal definitions or anathemas; the emancipation of the universal conscience, with which the Church should be ever in agreement;
A spirit of movement and change, with an inclination to a sweeping form of evolution such as abhors anything fixed and stationary;
A spirit of reconciliation among all men through the feelings of the heart. Many and varied also are the modernist dreams of an understanding between the different Christian religions, nay, even between religion and a species of atheism, and all on a basis of agreement that must be superior to mere doctrinal differences."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm#III
The essential error of Modernism - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Modernism
Etymologically, modernism means an exaggerated love of what is modern, an infatuation for modern ideas
NEWADVENT.ORG
October 3 at 5:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, I'm out. For real this time. Later, friends.
October 3 at 5:04pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman This seems apt as well:
"Moreover they lay the axe not to the branches and shoots, but to the very root, that is, to the faith and its deepest fires. And having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to disseminate poison through the whole tree, so that there is no part of Catholic truth from which they hold their hand, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skilful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious arts; for they double the parts of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and since audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance. To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls, that they lead a life of the greatest activity, of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of learning, and that they possess, as a rule, a reputation for the strictest morality. Finally, and this almost destroys all hope of cure, their very doctrines have given such a bent to their minds, that they disdain all authority and brook no restraint; and relying upon a false conscience, they attempt to ascribe to a love of truth that which is in reality the result of pride and obstinacy."
http://www.vatican.va/.../hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi...
Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis (08/09/1907)
Encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis of Pius X, 8 September 1907
VATICAN.VA|BY PIUS X
October 3 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin That is right, you would all do well to reread Pascendi and take it to heart.
October 3 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger In the beatific vision there is no need for faith: the certainty is undeniable.
October 3 at 5:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Michael, you have basically made faith pointless.
October 3 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Bolin It's been fun, folks, but I think the time has come. When one's argument comes down to "I can't be wrong because I'm right," perhaps an examination of conscience is in order.
Goodbye.
October 3 at 5:09pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just got back from confession...
October 3 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am certain of it!
October 3 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia how about this one, can I be certainly certain about this one:
If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified in his human flesh, is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema.
October 3 at 5:10pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, Tom Sundaram, Joel HF, Michael Beitia, and all others who warned us [me] at the beginning about where this was going: I apologize.
October 3 at 5:11pm · Like · 6
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Dominic Bolin So what is the certainty of divine faith? It seems like it has been admitted that it does not mean that one cannot be in error regarding whether a particular proposition is held by divine faith. So what is it?
October 3 at 5:13pm · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wait, so where did it go? And how has it ended? Are we in a world without faith? Are we all unsure of everything around us?
October 3 at 5:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I must stand with Joshua Kenz and repudiate and denounce what Michael said about the faith and our ability to be certain about it. It is vile and damnable heresy; the very substance of the condemned modernist heresy as outlined by Pope St. Pius X.
We should all pray. Seriously. We should especially invoke the intercession of Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies.
October 3 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger It was a good discussion. I don't think Bolin is modernist but headed there. Faith is a submission of one's intellect to what the Church teaches. Bolin seems to not be able to say what that is. And its not always easy
October 3 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No, Lauren, the faith remains. Our certainty is derived from the Maternal care and wisdom of Holy Mother Church. She bequeaths the unerring light of faith to all her children.
October 3 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger It is not clear that he denies that doctrine communicates truth which is at the heart of modernism.
October 3 at 5:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isn't that clear, John?
October 3 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman If one can never be certain of what the Church teaches, then no, truth and doctrine have not been communicated.
October 3 at 5:26pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger not sure. I hope not. @ 2 up
October 3 at 5:27pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am very sad.
October 3 at 5:27pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin If a Catholic is uncertain of what the Church teaches, does that mean they do not have faith?
October 3 at 5:29pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm off on retreat for the weekend -- I'll pray for your intentions. I think Adam and Eve win for the longest topic thread and it has been interesting. You'll hit 30000 before day's end (in Pacific Time).
October 3 at 5:30pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Dominic, I do not think that is a serious question.
October 3 at 5:30pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin I was asking it seriously. Is there some flaw in the question that makes it unintelligible?
October 3 at 5:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Ok. I'll bite.
October 3 at 5:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman again.
October 3 at 5:31pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia here we go again.....
October 3 at 5:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No, if a Catholic is uncertain of what the Church teaches, that does not mean that he does not have faith.
October 3 at 5:32pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Seriously, it is evident that certainty is being used in many senses. I just want to know what you think it means here.
October 3 at 5:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman How about you show some respect for my age, sorrow, and degrees, and just tell me what you think it means?
October 3 at 5:33pm · Like · 2
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Dominic Bolin So, have truth and doctrine been communicated in that case?
October 3 at 5:33pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin I am not sure what people are using it to mean. It appeared to me to be most likely that it was being used to mean holding a proposition such that no possible experience could change your assent to that proposition.
October 3 at 5:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about the one denying certainty defines what he denies
October 3 at 5:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know.
October 3 at 5:34pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Some things people have said indicate that, but others indicate something contradictory to it. So I would like to have more clarity as to what it means to be certain of something, and how that applies to what is held by faith.
October 3 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if you don't have clarity, how can you deny it?
October 3 at 5:35pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Did I ever deny it?
October 3 at 5:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you denied certitude, right?
October 3 at 5:36pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin No, I only asked how one could justify certitude in some cases and not in others.
October 3 at 5:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia was it your brother then?
October 3 at 5:37pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin It certainly seemed that way. He wasn't too clear with respect to natural knowledge (I don't know what he would say about first principles, for instance).
October 3 at 5:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think I'll speak only in Bolinesque questions from now on, does that seem fair?
October 3 at 5:39pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin You have to admit that I have made some statements.
October 3 at 5:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Beitia is a monobolinist.
October 3 at 5:40pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Well, unfortunately, I have to get dinner for my brood. We can come back to this later, right?
October 3 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin In fact, three of my last four comments are statements.
October 3 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin That depends on the will of TNET.
October 3 at 5:40pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger We are certain because the Church does not err when proposing doctrines for our belief. We can err by mistaking what those are or even misunderstanding the terms. Moreover that clarity of expression varies in time and place. But the truths are most certain because revealed by God who does not deceive.
October 3 at 5:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger They are most certain, but not absolutely because we can be deceived, mistake and not understand.
October 3 at 5:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Have y'all seen this yet? http://en.radiovaticana.va/.../pope_removes.../1107292
Pope removes bishop of Ciudad del Este, Paraguay
Pope removes bishop of Ciudad del Este, Paraguay
EN.RADIOVATICANA.VA
October 3 at 5:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Either way, this is welcome news. Unless you're a bishop who's enabled abusive priests."
https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/.../pope-francis...
Pope Francis removes Paraguayan bishop (UPDATED) | Commonweal Magazine
This morning the Holy See press office announced that...
COMMONWEALMAGAZINE.ORG
October 3 at 5:51pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin John, how is that different from what Michael was proposing? The certainty of their truth is from their being infallibly proposed by the Church, and yet they are not certain to us, on account of our possibility of making mistakes, misunderstanding what in fact is proposed, etc.
October 3 at 5:52pm · Like
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Adrw Lng #Hermaphroditeduckuncertainty
October 3 at 5:53pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman "I have not written to you as to them that know not the truth, but as to them that know it: and that no lie is of the truth."
(1John 2:21)
October 3 at 5:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have (2 Peter 1:12)
October 3 at 5:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Becoming better informed in the faith and increasing in faith by acts of faith increases certainty. Michael seemed to deny one could know what the Church teaches.
October 3 at 6:03pm · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram Dominic, I want to shear off some of my vanity and apologize if earlier I showed a lack of charity. We might or might not disagree - I hope not violently! - but I spoke roughly, as I tend to when I get frustrated to a certain degree. It is a nasty habit and I apologize.
October 3 at 5:58pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Taking correction removes errors. The faith is the most certain kind of knowledge.
October 3 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict In all honesty, I think the parties involved in this rigorous debate may not be using certain words in the same way. I'm finding a lot to agree with from both sides, and some things I don't quite understand yet from both sides.
October 3 at 5:59pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram When my blood gets to boiling it is bad for my ability to discuss things, and using this stupid phone to write everything isn't helping much.
October 3 at 6:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I've always loved that phrase the TAC founders advocated - "Do I understand you rightly to be saying...?"
October 3 at 6:00pm · Edited · Like
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Dominic Bolin Thanks Tom. I too was perhaps extreme; as you know we Bolins certainly like to be provocative. I don't think that is needed at this point though.
October 3 at 6:01pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Goodnight TNET.
October 3 at 6:02pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele so...is the problem with polygenism that people don't think a collective Fall is possible? Assuming i understand what polygenism means. Edit:at work wont be off til nine
October 3 at 6:07pm · Edited · Like
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Dominic Bolin John, I'm not sure I get it. Michael seems like he could hold those things too, as long as certainty is on the part of the cause, not the one receiving it. Is your position different from that? E.g. when you say "faith is the most certain kind of knowledge" do you mean that it is most certain for us, or that is it most certainly true?
October 3 at 6:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey you guys just let me know if you need any funny photoshops
October 3 at 6:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger good question. It is also most certain for us and we can find out what the Church teaches.
October 3 at 6:07pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin How does "most certain for us" fit with the possibility of error? (above you indicated that we could be mistaken that a given proposition was of divine faith) It seems like naturally what is most certain for us are the first principles of reason, and we cannot be mistaken about those.
October 3 at 6:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Nina, based on the canons above quoted, it seems that polygenism is impossible. But a collective fall is condemned.
October 3 at 6:10pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Most of the teachings of the Church are not hard to understand. The more difficult are for us less certain. Of course understanding on our part is very limited at the same time.
October 3 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Thus kids can understand a catechism but no one fathom the mystery of the trinity.
October 3 at 6:16pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger None need little more than a simple Catechism and that can be entirely certain more than a mathematical proposition. It is certain truth both in itself and in our belief.
October 3 at 6:22pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin I guess it is still not clear to me how one could say that something can be certain in our belief and yet we could be mistaken about it. Do we agree that this does not happen with respect to the things known by natural reason?
October 3 at 6:26pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lang, you made me laugh so hard I started to not be able to breathe
Nina, that an individual Adam actually committed a sin and through this man fell is the dogma. Polygenism is hard to reconcile with that because were he not the head of the human race, how could all mankind fall through the sin of an individual? I still hold that there was a consensus of theologians and the faithful, therefore teaching. But to Pater Edmund's point, there were those advancing polygenism way before the 20th century...pre-Adamite theology. So lets not be too hasty in saying it wasn't even an issue....
WRT doubt, I told this to Lendman and will share it with TNET
weird consequence that dawned on me in the shower...Trent says I cannot have the certitude of faith that I am in the state of grace. If such certitude is only moral certitude, doesn't that put us in a conundrum? But normally we understand that we can have moral certitude of being in grace, but not absolute. And Trent goes on to say we cannot have absolute certitude that we will persevere, unless we have private revelation. But the virtue of hope involves certainty, no? So moral certitude it is, but we were just told that we cannot have the certainty of faith, but if that is moral certitude....you see where I am going. Trent becomes incoherent.
October 3 at 6:26pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger I think I answered the question of error above. Our faith is not absolutely certain because we make mistakes. But we are most certain because of the virtue of Faith and the one revealing.
October 3 at 6:29pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Ok, so it is the most certain (above the certainty of natural reason), but not absolutely certain?
October 3 at 6:29pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm popping by to mention that no one is answering Dominic Bolin's questions. It's like watching a White House press briefing.
October 3 at 6:32pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger it seems so.
October 3 at 6:32pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Aaron, I am getting some answers now.
October 3 at 6:33pm · Like · 3
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Dominic Bolin Wasn't Michael's central point that we are not absolutely certain of what is held by faith? (and this is all we need in order to admit the possibility of our being wrong about these things) Or was it understood to be something different?
October 3 at 6:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger this.
October 3 at 6:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger wrt first principles of reason, these too we know with certainty.
October 3 at 6:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But no one contends absolute certainty of the beatific vision. Michael seemed to deny we can even know what the Church teaches.
October 3 at 6:46pm · Like
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Dominic Bolin Is "know" there doing the same work that "be absolutely certain of" would do?
October 3 at 6:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am absolutely certain of the object of faith...my understanding of the faith is more or less clear, and thus more or less explicit. I think the way certitude is even being used in the question pre-supposes a modern epistemology. One can have "absolute certitude" in subjective certitude, to a greater or lesser degree...it need not entail, this greater and less, absolute versus moral.
So children call all men father, then they learn to divide. There is a certain absolute certitude even there, in their apprehension, but this is not the same thing as clarity (certitude does not equal clear and distinct, Descartes), and so the child can make an error in use of the name and call all men father...
There is something like this with faith....the will does give reason truth infallibly, there is absolute and infallible certitude in our cleaving to the Faith, but the clarity in which I know it may vary. "I learn to divide"
Now there is not a magic line where I can say proposition X I am certain of and proposition Y I am not. But that is true of natural knowledge as well. I know, with absolute certitude, that 2+2=4. That the 5th postulate has been proved to be unable to be proved? I know this by moral certitude, expert mathematicians tell me so, and I understand some of the argument. At what point does my mathematical knowledge change character. I do not know. But I don't think I need to.
The same with faith, since it is a central proposition and has been made explicit by the organ of revelation, I will say I am absolutely certain that Christ was one person, and that the bread and wine change into Christ, etc. On the other side, I am pretty certain about the Thomistic account of predestination. Morally certain perhaps. But with some possibility of error. Where is the line between propositions I know with absolute certitude through faith and those I am only morally certain of, from argument/authority? Don't know
Can I err in judging my own certitude? Sure can. Does that I mean that there is a chance of error in any and all judgments? No. No more than it does in natural reason, or in sensation.
Am I in error over polygenism being definitely excluded? Unlikely, but maybe I have experiential certainty, which can be false, perhaps arising as such arises in argument, when one gets defensive against a haughty opponent? But even with the qualifications I have given above, I would say this I am morally certain that such is definitively taught. So if that is true, I don't hold it by faith, and may have been mistaken in my judgment. But I still think it is clear that the position on the other side is impermissible to hold. That is not the same as heretical. And Michael will note that I never called him a heretic over polygenism itself....no matter how he wishes to paint it now.
October 3 at 6:50pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Kenz, are you confusing moral certitude with that the certitude we have in our faith. And do we not retain the virtue of faith even in loss of sanctifying grace outside of heresy?
October 3 at 7:02pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Still waiting to hear how this can be dismissed as irrelevant
Similiter etiam donum sapientiae, cujus est spiritualia quae intellectus apprehendit, judicare sive ordinare sive approbare, infallibiliter et recte judicabit et ordinabit de omnibus quae ei subduntur, sive sint apprehensiones sive operationes; et in hoc quaedam similitudo deitatis in homine apparebit, cum Deus a providendo et judicando nomen acceperit, secundum quam homo filius Dei manifeste ostendetur. (Super Sent., lib. 3 d. 34 q. 1 a. 4 co.)
Likewise also the gift of wisdom, to which it belongs to judge or order or approve the spiritual matters which the intellect apprehends, will infallibly and correctly judge and order all things subject to it, both apprehensions and works, and in this a certain likeness of the Godhead appears in man, since God receives the name from providing and judging, according to which the man is manifestly shown as the son of God.
No infallible judgement?
October 3 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Ruplinger, huh?
October 3 at 6:58pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not confusing the two...I pointed out that Trent implies certitude of faith /= moral certitude, but is greater.
Your second question, I have no idea what it is saying
October 3 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Josh, with respect to the gift of wisdom, is it true that we can have the gift of wisdom without charity?
October 3 at 7:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger a response to your prior conundrum.
October 3 at 7:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No. But it was an example of an operation in man, here judging spiritual things, that happens "infallibly and correctly" I included it originally with other examples of say the infallibility of the senses with respect to their proper object. I was not claiming it was about the virtue of faith, only that an exclusion of absolute certitude due to an objection that our mind is not infallible, misses the "infallible" aspects here, even if our judgment in general is very fallible
October 3 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Josh, I agree that we can make judgments without the possibility of error in some cases. The question is, to what extent can you know that a particular judgment is such? With respect to the gift of wisdom, that presupposes charity; can one be absolutely certain that one has charity (in order to determine whether or not one in fact is judging by the gift of wisdom)?
October 3 at 7:06pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think your question is talking about a meta awareness of what is going on. The infallible judgment, produced by grace, is not, you are right, susceptible to strict perception or introspection. So it is not an example of knowing something with absolute certitude.
But it is an example of an aspect of infallibility, even if only that. Along with the other examples, meant to crack the door. But I concede, the judgment here is not a judgment of knowing something infallibly, but rather that, moved by the grace, in fact one will not err, but he is only morally certain that he is being moved such.
I you agree that some judgments can be made without error, then we are in essential agreement.
October 3 at 7:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia how do we know that we know a particular judgement is without the possibility of error?
October 3 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Don't know. I take as a first principle that I can know something, and I think it is only after going out and trying to know that we can reflect back on the character of knowledge...and we do that in metaphysics in particular
An endeavour I am still just starting. I know that I know, you know? Explaining the how there, well I admit that I haven't fully worked that out. M Bolin presumed that we hadn't given thought to this but he has, and ergo. I have given lots of thought to it...but it will be a while before I can articulate a complete position.
Is that fair?
October 3 at 7:32pm · Edited · Like
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Dominic Bolin Right. And how (if at all) we can do that with respect to things naturally known and things known by faith is most likely going to be different.
I have a lot to do, including grading 37 papers and midterms by Monday, and I think all of tomorrow is taken up with other stuff, so I probably won't be back here for a while. And who knows what state TNET will be in by then.
October 3 at 7:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia who knows that they know that they know what the state of tNET will be by then? Is it knowledge turtles all the way down?
October 3 at 7:52pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland ^Yes
October 3 at 8:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson FOOLS AND HERETICS!
IT IS ANGELS ALL THE WAY UP!
October 3 at 8:08pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia you can joke Peterson but you can't engage....(sorry in the form of a question) or can you?
October 3 at 8:10pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes. My problem is clearly I do not engage enough.
October 3 at 8:11pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I was engaged just once, to my wife, who probably...doesn't care that tNET is a jealous god.
October 3 at 8:11pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia depends on what you mean by engage. You throw a lot of darts and don't seriously entertain tNET questions, methinks. Also your idea of the development of doctrine is anathema, isn't it?
October 3 at 8:12pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson tNET kinda creeps me out a little.
October 3 at 8:12pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia it should, shouldn't it?
October 3 at 8:12pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson You can't troll me...I'm the trollerybread man.
October 3 at 8:13pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia that's a bold claim.
October 3 at 8:14pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Facebook Thread Bites the Hand That Feeds It.
October 3 at 8:20pm · Like · 4
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Michael Horton I found tNET frustrating to follow - arguments I wanted to deal myself into had moved on - but then Tom Sundaram made my day above. So, the Dude abides.
October 3 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I do what I can, when I can, which is way more than I should.
October 3 at 8:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I find tNET amusing; mostly because I never instigate arguments, but can just pop in every so often when someone is really wrong, say something (usually just citing a reference to Thomas Aquinas) and then sit back and watch my contribution be either entirely ignored, or get a few likes and subsequently be ignored.
October 3 at 8:37pm · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell This may be entirely beside the point wrt the discussion above about certainty and faith, but (Magister Artium speaking here): You guys always seem like you want to go on these high flights of fancy and talk theology, when you generally aren't even clear on the basic philosophical meanings of terms, so you become confused amongst yourselves.
October 3 at 8:49pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I find the entire conversation above a bit unreal, but this goes to deeper problems I have with the entire framework in these circles.
The things that are "clear" - or "simple" are often the most difficult to understand. One doesn't understand them completely. One can be certain of something in one way or to some extent or on some level but not in its fullness, etc.
So the entire black and white/on and off switch above is just a bit ridiculous to me. (Although, to be fair, at some points there were specific claims made that could perhaps admit of such black and white answers or rejections). But the claim that emerges out of our smoke and mirrors that is most interesting to me is really very simple: we don't fully understand or contain even the most self-evident truth, and that ought to make us wary over time from circumscribing too readily.
To know something and be certain about it is not to know it fully, or all the way through or down, and often our distorted knowledge of other things necessary to know the thing we think we know gets in our way.
But none of this ought to worry people, or turn them into skeptics or whatever. It is simply the way it is.
It is not only natural science that gets things partly right, and then discovers more, and realizes it was only partly correctly understood, but in light of some higher truth now known actually more is added to what was formerly known in a way that changes things. Etc., etc.
October 3 at 8:55pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell I mean is anyone on this thread a trained theologian? (i.e., Ph.D. / STD)?
October 3 at 8:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Heh. Heh. You said STD.
October 3 at 8:50pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson And yes, we are all writing fast amidst doing sundry other things, so slowing down and defining terms is not common and I think many are aware of this problem but on we regurgitate.
October 3 at 8:52pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman This thread proves that anything can be effed.
October 3 at 8:59pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia something about your larger comment above strikes me as profoundly wrong.
October 3 at 9:21pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Can you say more about why?
October 3 at 9:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I could, but well, what's the point?
October 3 at 9:23pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Are we only talking in questions now? Is that how this goes?
October 3 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "to know something and be certain about it is not to know it fully" HUH?
October 3 at 9:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "So the entire black and white....above is just a bit ridiculous to me"
Maybe, but when I'm citing Church documents SPECIFICALLY written so as to be simple, clear, and black and white, I don't see that as a defect in them, but maybe in the reader? (obligatory question mark)
October 3 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia So there, Daniel, I said more
October 3 at 9:27pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Sure. There is no defect in saying God is one, either. Or that we actually see colors. But adding triune to that changes understanding. And our understanding of what color actually is changes too. That's alls I'm saying.
October 3 at 9:29pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell ... and it was well-said. But I must be missing something, because I still don't know who you're quoting from.
October 3 at 9:29pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "to know something and be certain about it is not to know it fully" - I think that's pretty obvious.
October 3 at 9:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson just above
October 3 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia okay, at the risk of playing Socrates (pronounced like Bill and Ted) what do you mean when you say "fully" "certain"? to me it sounds (and I would read it that way if I didn't know you) like a bunch of fluff to avoid coming down on the side of anything.
October 3 at 9:32pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I know what color is. Hell, most people do. And they are rightly certain about it. That's red. But that doesn't mean they fully understand what red is, or fully understand what they are seeing, or see all the shades of it.
October 3 at 9:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that is different from a dogmatic proposition
October 3 at 9:33pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I know what a deer is. But even the strictest Thomistotle would admit they don't know it fully. To do so would entail knowing being itself.
October 3 at 9:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia also different than a dogmatic proposition
October 3 at 9:34pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In one way, this is even more true re dogmatic shtuff. Sure, it's clear and understandable. That's the point. But not fully. You don't understand the terms fully. Or what they portend and contain within them.
October 3 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but that should not stop us from saying we have absolute certitude
October 3 at 9:35pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson: what is truth? do you understand that fully, and what is contained and portended in it? Why use it? more could come from it that you don't even know
October 3 at 9:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Insofar as we can know what they say, sure. But we can overextend their meaning and too quickly apply them, I suppose. We can think we understand them a bit more than we do.
What it means to be one, for instance. What substance is, and what person means. Any one part of those pieces of understanding is broadened in terms of knowing the other pieces.
October 3 at 9:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In some way yes, I know what truth is. And so does everyone.
But it's not just so simple
If it was, why do we learn from reading all those pages of St. Thomas talking about it.
It's not fully known.
October 3 at 9:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia fine. have it your way. this weak (as opposed to strong) appeal to ignorance is cool, whatevs. However you may quibble about the terms, this, again, is really clear and black and white:
If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified in his human flesh, is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema.
October 3 at 9:44pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia oh crap I don't know "fully" what "member of the Holy Trinity" means it's turtles all the way down.
October 3 at 9:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (I do like the autocorrect, whatever slip above where you typed; "And so dies everyone" I'm calling the NSA right now)
October 3 at 9:46pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger It is a true statement and many more can be added. Without which, however a fuller understanding is not possible.
October 3 at 9:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and for all Thomas' writing on the transcendentals, while worthwhile understanding, is still little. To put it another way the difference between simply saying God is one rather than many is greater than saying He is one and knowing what that means as far as it is humanly possible.
October 3 at 10:06pm · Like
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John Ashman Truth is achieved when you are able to identify and discard the irrelevant bits instead of incessently arguing about them. The more irrelevant data you add to the equation, the more you end up with gray area. Everyone is arguing about theology and dogma and process, but theology but it is just the periphery. People would be better off seeking their own truth rather than waiting for someone to pedantically define it for them.
October 3 at 10:25pm · Like
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Brian Kemple One problem with the clarity of Church documents, written with the deliberate intent to be clear, is that language is not static.
Moreover, because of the very nature of human conceptualization and verbalization, even the clearest, most accurate depiction of that which is--be it some account of a thing's nature or a Church teaching--is involved in a web of interpretation.
(I feel like I'm putting up teasers for my dissertation. Not that it has anything to do with Church teaching, but it does have an awful lot to do with conceptualization.)
October 3 at 10:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'd still rather have precisely written documents than the stuff modern theologians tend to write.
October 3 at 10:53pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman It's hard enough to get 5 people to be clear after a sit down meeting, but this is dozens, if not hundreds of people contributing over thousands of years.
October 3 at 10:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It's bizarre to me that what I am saying is controversial.
Do you think most Christians of good will understand 10% of what has been written about the trinity?
October 3 at 10:57pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley "Understand" is besides the point in matters of faith.
October 3 at 11:00pm · Like
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Edward Langley Strictly speaking, know one understands them.
October 3 at 11:01pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As I recall, people seemed to dispute what those terms in that anathema meant for thousands of years.
And understanding deepened and clarified, if the claims of Christianity are correct. But within that process the status of who this Christ was and this person thing, etc. was worked out.
October 3 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley But the Church generally proposes dogmas for assent in language that's relatively easy to comprehend: cf. Nicene Creed.
October 3 at 11:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Most of religion makes no sense at all to me. I don't try.
October 3 at 11:01pm · Like
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Edward Langley The dispute was more about how to formulate the doctrine in question: it always is much more difficult to discover than to learn what others have discovered.
October 3 at 11:02pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially, when all that's required of most people is assent to a clearly formulated proposition.
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Edward Langley "God can do anything", for example, is one of the very first propositions presented in the Creed.
October 3 at 11:04pm · Like
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John Ashman If there's one thing that put me off being a true Catholic is reading a Catechism book. If there's no logic...if it raises more questions than it answers....if it makes you think...but WHY would it happen like that.... then it just pushes me away, not pulls me in.
October 3 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley John, the Catechism is more of a reference book like an encyclopedia or such.
October 3 at 11:05pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley It provides helps to understanding, but isn't meant to be the most elaborate statement of the various doctrines.
October 3 at 11:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman It would take a lot of interesting argument to try to make sense of it though. In my worst imagings of God, I don't think the 'one true God' would behave as described. Unless he were seriously disturbed.
October 3 at 11:08pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, and there have been many systematic expositions of the doctrines contained in the Catechism: St. John Damascene's Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Aquinas's Summa, the Summa of Alexander of Hales, and whole libraries full of books attempting to make the various doctrines as intelligible as possible.
October 3 at 11:09pm · Like
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John Ashman I just think Catholicism tried way too hard and ended up a quixotic mess.
October 3 at 11:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley That actually isn't generally true.
October 3 at 11:10pm · Like
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John Ashman I would say it was true in the first few centuries and is becoming true again.
October 3 at 11:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley Maybe as far as contemporary expositions go.
October 3 at 11:11pm · Like
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John Ashman For about 1500-1800 years, they had enough power, they didn't have to massage the pitch. It was...you're in...or you're dead.
October 3 at 11:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley But being a Catholic generally doesn't involve keeping up with the latest fad.
October 3 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ashman True. Where I respect Catholicism is the philosophical side, not the theological part.
October 3 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ashman Individuality, reptentence, responsibility, charity, volunteerism.
October 3 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ashman The rest of it can get in the way if you overthink it.
October 3 at 11:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley The middle three are more properly theological than philosophical.
October 3 at 11:13pm · Like
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John Ashman A little of both. Being able to admit sin and make amends is a big step in being a better person. My first wife was incapable of apologizing.
October 3 at 11:17pm · Like
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John Ashman And she was Catholic too.
October 3 at 11:18pm · Like
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Timothy Gerard Aloysius Wilson 29,499...c'mon, folks, you can make it to 30,000 by tonight!
October 3 at 11:22pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill On the author....
What is it to be an author, if nobody wants to read what you wrote?
Literature, philosophy or theology, the act of writing is for the sake of the reader.
For the sake of the audience, how is it best to connect with them and transfer ideas?
October 3 at 11:49pm · Like
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Liz Neill At this point? Pray for your own souls : )
October 3 at 11:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No, no, Bethea, the NSA already knows. (Michael)
October 4 at 12:02am · Edited · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Connecting with an audience relies on being able to tell the audience something they already know, to get them initially invested. This is often called, "common ground," and it helps boost the readers' confidence in their own knowledge. At the same time, though, you must destabilize the readers so that they can perceive value in what is written. After that, it's equal parts manipulation and information.
October 4 at 12:34am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Now that's honesty, Clay...
October 4 at 12:35am · Like
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Jeff Neill Connecting and having common ground are critical... Very true, but why are they reading you?
October 4 at 12:35am · Like
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Clayton Brockman Me in particular, or why would they read anyone, sort of, in general?
October 4 at 12:36am · Like
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Jeff Neill In general. But I like your thinking so far.
October 4 at 12:36am · Like
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Jeff Neill I guess you made three points 1 destabilize 2 information 3 manipulation.
October 4 at 12:37am · Like
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Jeff Neill It can either start at the end, what you are manipulating for, or why you want to destabilize.
October 4 at 12:39am · Like
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John FitzGerald C'mon, people; we're coming up on 30,000. Let's keep her going. May this thread break 300k.
October 4 at 12:46am · Like
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Jeff Neill It would seem to me that pontificating absolute certitude polarizes the readers, causing some readers to examine more carefully for the slightest error and others refuse to read altogether.
This goes back to who is a better author Plato or Aristotle?
October 4 at 12:51am · Like
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Clayton Brockman Destabilizing is something that typically goes at the beginning, and manipulating is done throughout the text. I'm not sure what you mean.
October 4 at 1:25am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman And yeah, pontificating turns people off. But there're ways around it, so it's not necessarily ineffective.
October 4 at 1:26am · Like · 1
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Clayton Brockman Here's an example of what I mean: Mid 19th century shirts are really amazing. The statement is meaningless and relies on an immediate recognition of the word "amazing" and whether or not you agree. By allowing you to make a judgement and have your own opinion about 19th century shirts, I have failed to create sufficient value to encourage readers.
But what if I wrote this: "Many can agree that clothing is often worn to create a desired reaction, whether it be a conservative dress to indicate something about one's personal virtue, or a jaunty cap to reveal that, yes, we are indeed as fun to be with as was initially suspected. And though that be a commonly accepted truth nowadays, the poor man of the 19th century did not need to buckle under such societal pressure, free as he was to defy economic advantage and propriety.
As industrialization swept through America, the clothing industry likewise revolutionized, and thus was born a wonder: The first mass-produced shirt. Since fashionable clothing no longer required the hands of a master, even a poor man could afford to appear wealthy and command respect for his thoughts and opinions in the public forum. For the first time, a poor man and a rich man looked the same."
If I did my job right, you read the whole thing and now you want to learn more. Maybe you're thinking about how mass-produced shirts were a great equalizer in the socio-economic sphere of America, and then maybe you might wonder whether that had an impact on the power and rise of Democracy.
Or maybe not.
October 4 at 1:51am · Like · 3
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Clayton Brockman And it's Plato. I remember actual lines from the dialogues. I only remember generalized principles and conclusions from Aristotle.
October 4 at 1:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman For the rest, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever modest, whatsoever just, whatsoever holy, whatsoever lovely, whatsoever of good fame, if there be any virtue, if any praise of discipline, think on these things. (Phil 4:8)
October 4 at 1:57am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman ^Apropos of nothing.
October 4 at 1:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Goodmorning, TNET.
October 4 at 1:58am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman http://www.amazon.com/Aristotelian-Realist.../dp/1137400722#
An Aristotelian Realist Philosophy of Mathematics: Mathematics as the Science...
An Aristotelian Philosophy of Mathematics breaks the...
AMAZON.COM
October 4 at 2:12am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.apieceofmonologue.com/.../critchley-on-nature...
Critchley on Nature in Terrence Malick | A Piece of Monologue: Literature,...
APIECEOFMONOLOGUE.COM
October 4 at 2:14am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.forbes.com/.../three-steps-to-writing-the.../
Three Steps To Writing The Perfect LinkedIn Summary
Your LinkedIn profile is one of the most important career...
FORBES.COM|BY WILLIAM ARRUDA
October 4 at 2:15am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.forbes.com/.../13-ways-to-know-if-your.../
13 Ways To Know If Your LinkedIn Summary Is A Winner Or A Snoozer
First impressions have gone digital. People are learning...
FORBES.COM|BY WILLIAM ARRUDA
October 4 at 2:15am · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple I want my audience to feel really, really confused by my linkedin summary.
October 4 at 2:38am · Like
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Sean Robertson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEIeH7ymwA
Greatest Film Scene
Cosmos sequence from "Tree of Life". "Tree of Life" is owned by eOne.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 4 at 2:43am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson ^Watch in a dark room, with sound all the way up.
October 4 at 2:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In light of what O'Connell said above: Are there any other theologians on here aside from Tom and myself? Although Tom is going in to Canon Law... so aside from myself?
October 4 at 2:57am · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram heeeey Dan thinks I'm a theologian! I feel like I earned something!
October 4 at 5:26am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram I feel like I would want to read Clay's examples of what a Socratic dialogue would look like between Socrates and Derrida way more than ever I wanted to read Kreeft.
October 4 at 5:31am · Edited · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram other rhetorical strategies include giving random people money to shout "by the Dog, Socrates, it could not be otherwise!" periodically during arguments.
October 4 at 5:35am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It seems to me that to the one who has faith, the fundamental propositions of the faith "ring true" and are heard as though proposed by God Himself. Such truths, then, are held with the certitude of faith. A certitude that is greater than any speculative certitude.
October 4 at 6:45am · Unlike · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick So everyone is tired after the whole certitude thing, eh?
October 4 at 6:51am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Lauren, if you are up for 468 more comments, we could take this to 30,000.
October 4 at 7:04am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Lauren: I'd say yes, but I am not certain.
October 4 at 8:39am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman But what about what I said, Tom?
October 4 at 8:49am · Like
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Tom Sundaram I'd answer that, but I'm not certain you said it.
October 4 at 8:50am · Like · 4
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John Ashman I may be. Not sure.
October 4 at 9:22am · Like
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Joel HF Ashman, no such thing as "my truth" or "your truth", just " the truth "
October 4 at 9:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nope, it is epistemological turtles all the way down. we have to be sure that we're sure that we're sure... etc. etc.
OR we can be sure or not.
October 4 at 9:32am · Like
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John Ashman Catholicism is based on "my truth".
October 4 at 9:34am · Like
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John Ashman All religions are.
October 4 at 9:35am · Like
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John Ashman "my truth is going to be your truth....or else"
October 4 at 9:35am · Like
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John Ashman "the truth" is just marketing.
October 4 at 9:36am · Like
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Michael Beitia ^and that's the truth, right?
Solipsistic SOB
October 4 at 9:55am · Like · 3
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John Ashman Maybe. Or maybe not. Just my opinion.
October 4 at 10:21am · Like
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John Ashman I take offense at being labeled solipsistic.
October 4 at 10:23am · Like
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John Ashman SOBist, yes.
October 4 at 10:23am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's what happens when you deny objective truth. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But to wash down the bitter medicine of being called solipsistic, there's the honey of being called an SOB
October 4 at 10:24am · Like · 2
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John Ashman There's a difference between facts and science and "truth". Truth as described in religion is simply a strongly worded assertion.
October 4 at 10:25am · Like
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John Ashman I think something might rise to, or at least, approach the truth if all the religions in the world agreed that it is truth.
October 4 at 10:29am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Imagine the doors that would open to John if he did not exempt his own statements from his universal claims.
October 4 at 10:37am · Like · 4
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John Ashman I don't claim perfect truth, I'm just throwing it out there. Not willing to kill anyone over it. That is a good definition of "truth". When it's so true, anyone who disbelieves it need to be killed. Or has to be tormented for eternity. Or shunned for eternity.
October 4 at 10:39am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John, you make truth claims all the time while simultaneously denying anyone the capacity to know what is true.
October 4 at 10:41am · Like · 2
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John Ashman Unlike religions, I'm willing to state that pretty much everything I say is an assertion.
October 4 at 10:41am · Like
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John Ashman I make claims (assertions) about the truth. I have never said it is universal truth and anyone who disagrees is going to hell.
October 4 at 10:42am · Like
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John Ashman Nor that it is unassailable or non-debateable.
October 4 at 10:42am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Have you not repeatedly denied that there can be knowledge of universal truth?
October 4 at 10:45am · Like
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John Ashman No.
October 4 at 10:46am · Like
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John Ashman I've asserted that people fill in the blanks in their knowledge with "truth".
October 4 at 10:47am · Like
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John Ashman And that if you claim the truth and that others who claim the truth are wrong, you ought to bring more than "some guy said so thousands of years ago"
October 4 at 10:48am · Like
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John Ashman Or "my guy is infallible, yours is not. Neener, neener."
October 4 at 10:48am · Like
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John Ashman If truth is universal, why does only a small minority agree with it?
October 4 at 10:49am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So do you or do you not think that we can have knowledge of truths that are universal? I am not speaking here of religious truth.
October 4 at 10:50am · Like
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John Ashman I don't know. I would not bet on it.
October 4 at 10:57am · Like
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John Ashman The great thing about universal truth is that you don't have to 'sell' anyone on it.
October 4 at 10:57am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreement is not a measure of truth. If you propose the Pythagorean theorem to students who have never considered it before, they will quite reasonably doubt the truth of this theorem. And even after the proof has been shown to them, they may still doubt that it is true. But the truth of it does not depend upon a vote.
October 4 at 10:59am · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond If you think attempting to convince students that the Pythagorean theorem is true is an example of trying to "sell" them on it, then it would seem that one does have to "sell" folks on universal truth.
October 4 at 11:13am · Like · 4
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John Ashman Pythagorean theorem can be proven both mathematically and anectdotally.
Prove that Jesus was known to be the son of God, or claimed to be, or was born of a virgin birth
October 4 at 11:23am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond John, I specifically said above that I am not speaking of religious truth.
October 4 at 11:24am · Like
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John Ashman The theorem works because anyone can test it repeatedly and it holds up.
October 4 at 11:24am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is not the repeated "tests" that make it true.
October 4 at 11:24am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond It holds up to repeated tests because it is true, but that is not the measure of its truth.
October 4 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia in fact, it doesn't "hold up" to tests. That's why Gauss wanted to measure huge triangles, to see if it would "hold up"
October 4 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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John Ashman You said universal truth. Give me a non religious universal truth.
October 4 at 11:26am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If it were simply a matter of repeated testing, then we would have to be open to one day discovering that it is not true based upon a new "test," but that will never happen.
October 4 at 11:26am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The Pythagorean theorem.
October 4 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the principle of non-contradiction
October 4 at 11:27am · Like · 3
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John Ashman That's math.
October 4 at 11:27am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. No dispute there.
October 4 at 11:27am · Like · 1
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John Ashman That is simply semantics. What's the word? It's simply a definition by definition.
October 4 at 11:28am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please explain. What is the antecedent of "that" in your comment above?
October 4 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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John Ashman principle of non-contradiction. It's simply a definition. the actual word to describe it fails me at the moment.
October 4 at 11:30am · Like
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John Ashman It is not a truth as such, it is simply how two definitions of words work and don't work together.
October 4 at 11:31am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Let's leave the principle of non-contradiction to the side for a moment, do you grant that the Pythagorean theorem is a universal truth?
October 4 at 11:31am · Like
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John Ashman No. I wouldn't put it in the category of truth. It is a mathematical fact.
October 4 at 11:32am · Like
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John Ashman It is proven via math and it holds up to anecdote.
October 4 at 11:32am · Like
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John Ashman How does this work with virgin birth?
October 4 at 11:32am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What do you mean by "fact"?
October 4 at 11:32am · Like
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John Ashman http://www.differencebetween.net/.../difference-between.../
Difference Between Fact and Truth | Difference Between | Fact vs Truth
Fact vs. Truth What is the clear difference between a fact...
DIFFERENCEBETWEEN.NET
October 4 at 11:33am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Can you state what you mean by "fact" so that we don't have to involve a third party?
October 4 at 11:34am · Like
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John Ashman I agree with the article's definitions.
October 4 at 11:35am · Like
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John Ashman For instance, many consider it to be "truth" that Jesus was born from a virgin mother. But there are no facts to support it. It is simply asserted. Truth is asserted. Facts have evidence and proofs.
October 4 at 11:36am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Well, I will have to read the article then and get back to you. But now we will undoubtedly be involved in interpretation of the article.
October 4 at 11:37am · Like
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John Ashman Such as it is with all written documents.
October 4 at 11:38am · Like
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John Ashman That's why "universal truth" is elusive.
October 4 at 11:39am · Like
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John Ashman Your assertion and belief is no more powerful than mine.
October 4 at 11:39am · Like
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Catherine Ryland It's good to see that there are (at least) two different understandings of the word 'truth' here.
October 4 at 11:47am · Like
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John Ashman Here are 13 that are 200 years old - http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/truth
Word [truth] :: Search the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English...
Search, browse, and study this dictionary to learn more...
1828.MSHAFFER.COM
October 4 at 11:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill None of that matters if you don't agree and hold that definition yourself.
October 4 at 11:51am · Like
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Jeff Neill Are you still denying the objective world around you and that its existence does not depend on your understanding of it?
October 4 at 11:52am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is not my desire to be more powerful than you, John. I am well aware of your oft-expressed fear that someone is trying to kill you or put you to death merely for disagreeing with them. My goal, however, is merely to get you to see that you consistently exempt yourself from your own universal claims. Now, the article you posted says that facts are more objective and truth is more subjective. Facts, according to the article you cited above, are "not just something that you believe, but rather these are more or less the things that can be observed empirically, or by the senses." I would like you to explain, then, since you agree with this view, what is the basis for saying that facts are things that can be observed empirically. Is that a "fact" according to your definition? In other words, can you empirically establish that facts can be observed empirically?
October 4 at 11:53am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Can a fact be true?
October 4 at 11:54am · Like
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John Ashman Pretty much. Today's "truth" differs from that of 2000 years ago and will no doubt differ from that in the future.
A fact is a fact, it doesn't need to be 'true'. It may be true to me, but not to someone else.
October 4 at 11:55am · Like
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John Ashman Depending on how you define true.
October 4 at 11:55am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is the distinction between "fact" and "truth" (according to your definitions) a fact or a truth?
October 4 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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John Ashman It's an assertion.
October 4 at 11:55am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Thus, if I am following you here, you acknowledge that your definition of fact is based on a truth claim.
October 4 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Or as I more properly call it, an "assertion"
October 4 at 11:57am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Then for you, all is assertion, correct?
October 4 at 11:57am · Like · 2
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John Ashman Truth = assertion when not based in actual facts. And even then, you're asserting that the sum of the facts = truth, when that may be not be correct or may differ from others' understanding.
October 4 at 11:58am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But for you, John, facts themselves are dependent on a truth claim, or assertion.
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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John Ashman A common "truth" is that Abraham Lincoln invaded the South to free the slaves. And that he was unrelentingly "Honest".
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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Catherine Ryland So you really wouldn't say that the pythagorean theorem is true? or a truth?
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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John Ashman But the facts don't actually support those claims.
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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Catherine Ryland What is the difference for you between truth and opinion?
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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John Ashman It's math.
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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Catherine Ryland (I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, just trying to understand your position.)
October 4 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman I don't see much difference as used.
October 4 at 11:59am · Like
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John Ashman I prefer to equate truth and assertion.
October 4 at 12:00pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I see then why you are so power oriented in your thinking, John, and why you constantly bring up fear of being forced to believe something. For you speaking is just about getting power over other people. No one, in your mind, can know facts or truth since both reduce to assertion. Is that correct?
October 4 at 12:01pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Truth seems to me to be the opposite of opinion. I might have an opinion that agrees with what is true=what is objectively observable or provable.
October 4 at 12:01pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland And mathematics would be one of the things that would be most obviously "true" because it is one of the most objective and provable non-opinions out there.
October 4 at 12:02pm · Like
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John Ashman Objectively observable and provable = factual.
October 4 at 12:02pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Sure! I have no problem with that!
October 4 at 12:02pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland To me factual = true
October 4 at 12:02pm · Like
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John Ashman I would say that, yes, math = truth. But when we get into philosophy and religion, truth = assertion
October 4 at 12:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The problem is that John thinks facts themselves are ultimately mere assertions. After all, the distinction between fact and truth is an assertion, as he stated above.
October 4 at 12:03pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman That's why I don't like to use truth as philosophers and religious advocates use it. It sullies up the word with simple belief or faith.
October 4 at 12:03pm · Like
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John Ashman People get the relation backwards. It is not "it is true because I have faith in it" but "I have faith in it because it is true". I have faith in math.
October 4 at 12:04pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Why do you need faith in math if it is true?
October 4 at 12:05pm · Like
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John Ashman I don't.
October 4 at 12:05pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I mean if it is objectively provable.
October 4 at 12:05pm · Like
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John Ashman Though if something never fails you, you tend to have faith in it.
October 4 at 12:06pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram The funny thing is that the notion of objective probativity rests on the assertion that there are things which are factual.
October 4 at 12:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Jeffrey Bond "The problem is that John thinks facts themselves are ultimately mere assertions. After all, the distinction between fact and truth is an assertion, as he stated above."
That is a poor assertion.
October 4 at 12:08pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think of faith as 'something that you believe is true even though it hasn't been proven to you (or by you) yet'. It is something that has been presented to you as true, and you accept it until you find something that is more true, if possible.
October 4 at 12:08pm · Like
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John Ashman Facts were facts before they were asserted to be facts.
October 4 at 12:08pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (ahem, TNET, I'm sure my stated opinion is heretical, and I'd be happy to be corrected on it.)
October 4 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman "I assert this as truth" "I accept that assertion and choose to have faith in it"
October 4 at 12:09pm · Like
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John Ashman I have zero problem with faith, though I find it becomes dangerous when it is claimed to be based in universal truth, which was, itself, based in faith.
October 4 at 12:11pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland For example, I accept the assertion (I believe) as a fact that the sun is a ball of flaming gas even though I have not observed or proved this myself. Is this an example of what you are talking about?
October 4 at 12:12pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman That's why we have the democratic, crowd-sourced structure of science. We tend to accept as facts those things that survive scientific scrutiny, though there are clearly things on the periphery that are not so much factual as politically based assertion. Science has gotten so big, with everyone wanting to prove everything as "science" that some of it is simply not to be trusted.
October 4 at 12:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland So in your understanding truth is a set of assertions that you personally have accepted as fact?
October 4 at 12:15pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman I remember being taught that rotting dinosaurs gave us petroleum. That never felt remotely accurate or logical to me.
October 4 at 12:15pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Or is truth not even related to fact?
October 4 at 12:15pm · Like
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John Ashman Truth can be related or not related as commonly used today. It is SUPPOSED to be based in fact. For instance, 10 facts may make an apparent truth, but there may be facts that take it in a different direction, not yet entered into evidence.
October 4 at 12:16pm · Like
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John Ashman We teach the "truth" that the South started the war with the North.....yet the facts that were unreported to school children make the truth seem quite a bit different.
October 4 at 12:17pm · Like
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John Ashman Catholics teach the "truth" that Jesus is the son of God. Jews, well, they admit that Jesus was Jewish, but not the son of God. Which is the universal truth?
October 4 at 12:20pm · Like
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John Ashman Dogma is the ultimate assertion of a truth, but has no facts or science to back it up.
October 4 at 12:21pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I would say truth in history is limited strictly to 'what actually happened at the time'. When it is reported, point of view and bias are automatically going to be present, just because of the nature of the way humans experience and remember complex realities. (Unless it's a very simple eyewitness account, corroborated by many witnesses who are not colluding to deceive anyone...)
In fact, it's difficult to speak of truth (at least of the mathematical, objective sort) at all with reference to the way history is recorded.
October 4 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland (sorry, my fb wasn't keeping up with the comments)
October 4 at 12:21pm · Like
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John Ashman Truth is compliant, facts are not.
October 4 at 12:21pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Compliant?
October 4 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Ashman Bend with the times.
October 4 at 12:22pm · Like
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John Ashman The left claims one thing about the Constitution, the man who wrote it said that's not true 200 years prior. Left says "he's not qualified and besides, it's OUR constitution now".
October 4 at 12:23pm · Like
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John Ashman "the truth is what I say it is!" - movie quote
October 4 at 12:24pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland That's a sort of Alice-in-Wonderland, Red Queen kind of thing. Not truth at all.
October 4 at 12:25pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman That's why I think that people should seek their own truths, but should treat them as personal truths. Then they are less likely to be upset by those that think differently.
October 4 at 12:25pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland So again you're just considering truth = opinion.
October 4 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Ashman My wife is on a mission to save me, but thankfully, she's patient and works slowly. Though I do worry that she'll ambush me one day with some sort of Catholic intervention.
October 4 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Essentially. It can be based in facts or logic or belief.
October 4 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Ashman But it is an interpretation of the world around you.
October 4 at 12:26pm · Like
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John Ashman But again, I don't use it that way, it's teh way others use it.
October 4 at 12:27pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Why isn't that just called 'world-view'?
October 4 at 12:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Technically, when you say "it's true!" it means it conforms to facts or logic or history. It is an authentic representation. A story about the facts.
October 4 at 12:28pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland ...Which will of course be different for each person. (this statement should go with my comment above.)
October 4 at 12:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman I almost never use the word "truth" in a sentence. Except here, more than I do in a whole year.
October 4 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland That's because TNET is most interested in "truth" (as in 'objective reality'), and everything else discussed on here is subordinate to finding out what that objective reality is (well, that and number of comments). \
October 4 at 12:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman Well....there's a lot of bickering about what the truth is at least...... The comment count is probably the most accurate thing said here.
October 4 at 12:32pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Well, also and that there are so many interesting things to discuss...
October 4 at 12:35pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Well, most of us would not bother if we're not trying to figure out what is the objective reality of any one of the topics discussed here. At all. Perhaps I should speak for myself...
October 4 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman I'm just trolling
October 4 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Well, TNET can attribute much of its existence to trolls. I've tried to pseudo-troll at times just to keep it going, but I've realized TNET needs no assistance. TNET is also tons of fun.
October 4 at 12:42pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ashman I only regret that I can't live up to the trolling of A La Beitia.
October 4 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman
October 4 at 12:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Your definition of faith works for human faith but in speaking of the supernatural virtue it appears similar but is a belief in what God has revealed and we believe it on his authority. Some matters can be arrived at by reason and others not.
October 4 at 12:47pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Right, but I would say that my statement above is still true in that I can only believe (=have faith in) supernatural truths insofar as I know they exist and/or assent to them. Perhaps that is a distinction between personal faith and "The Faith" whatever that is. That of course is not saying that there is no truth beyond what I believe or can give assent to -- quite the contrary. The goal is for one's faith to continue to go further into reality so that one's belief is continually informed by the truth.
October 4 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond One thought before departing, John. While ad hominem arguments are not really arguments at all, I suppose that they are all that is left in an argument such as this once a person commits to a position such as yours. You have again and again, not only in this particular argument, but elsewhere with numerous other interlocutors, made it clear that for you argument is about getting power over another, or at least preventing another person from getting power over you. I have therefore repeatedly pointed this FACT out, here and elsewhere on TNET, not because I want power over you, but because it has been my hope that you might recognize this and ask yourself if you really only want to engage others in discussion for the sake of determining who is more powerful. For you, all claims, including facts, are ultimately reducible to mere assertion even though you strangely deny holding this position almost immediately after you have asserted it. And so the snake swallows its own tail. Even the law of non-contradiction, upon which all speech (including yours, John) depends if it is to have any meaning at all, is nothing but word play in your mind. Your quarrel, then, is really with Truth itself, because you do not wish to be measured in any way by anything outside of your own mind. It was fair, then, for Michael Beitia to call you a solipsist, because you not only practice solipsism, but you also preach it, though it may well be that you do not realize that you do this. Hence, it is useless to engage you with additional arguments. You do not need a new argument; you need a new experience, and I truly hope that you are given one.
October 4 at 12:59pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman TL;DR
October 4 at 12:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Jeffrey, aren't we dealing simply with a different understanding of the word truth? That makes discussion about truth difficult, but the answer seems to be reaching back to find common ground. I don't think it's helpful for people to say, "whatever, you don't accept the principle of contradiction therefore we can't talk with you." Your ability to help others along the road of truth is derailed right at the beginning where it needs to start.
October 4 at 1:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Catherine, at some point I think that any rational person must agree with Aristotle that a person who rejects the law of non-contradiction does not need a new argument, but rather a different experience. After all, such a person rejects the very basis of meaningful argument. I have repeatedly made a good faith effort to converse with John to try to find common ground, but I have reached the point where I think it is futile. I am not saying, of course, that others should not try, for they may provide John with the very new experience that he needs. But the problem here goes much deeper than a mere difference in definition.
October 4 at 1:12pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman I think this is the problem with the declaration of "universal truth". It is not tolerant fo debate or difference and has always been the case throughout history. Ironically.
October 4 at 1:12pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland It seems that when John says 'truth' he means 'world-view based on facts, logic, belief and opinion'. It seems that if we are clearer on what we all mean by the word 'truth' we can get farther.
October 4 at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I wish you all the best in that endeavor, Catherine. I stand by my experience with John that the problem goes much deeper than definition.
October 4 at 1:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman She seems to be doing quite well because she meets people half way. We discuss our differences.
October 4 at 1:15pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Okay, so we all see things differently. John doesn't accept the law of contradiction. That's a given. What are you going to do about it?
October 4 at 1:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Perhaps nothing, if you think discussion is not a helpful forum or you have better things to do.
October 4 at 1:17pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Errand time......Or my wife may sentence me to hell for now and forever.....
October 4 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Catherine Ryland, I'm not sure if you were speaking to me when you said "What are you going to do about it?" If you were addressing me, I think I have already explained that I am not going to converse with John any further. I think it may be worth pointing out to you, in case you did not realize it, that John is now engaging in a false alliance with you to protect himself against what he perceives as a threat from me. Once a person like John reveals that speech is only about power, you must take him at his word for it explains his actions. For John, power politics at this point requires him to make nice with you to fight off the "attack" from me. I am not attacking him, of course, but that is the only way he can interpret my words.
October 4 at 1:27pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Why are you taking it personally?
October 4 at 1:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I'm not.
October 4 at 1:28pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Those who do not accept the principle of non-contradiction ought to receive Avicenna's prescription: they should be beaten, burned, and starved, until they admit to be beaten, burned, and starved is not the same as to not be beaten, burned, and starved.
October 4 at 1:29pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond A very funny fellow, that Avicenna! Unfortunately John will take this joke as confirmation that everyone who disagrees with him is trying to put him to death or send him to Hell.
October 4 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland The only reason I'm pushing back, Mr. Bond, is that I see this happen often, that people get to this point and say, "I can't talk with you any more." To me, that means that if we're trying to help people on our common journey, we've failed.
October 4 at 1:31pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland That is also a kind of solipsism.
October 4 at 1:32pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol but everyone has tried to help
October 4 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Okay, that's fine.
October 4 at 1:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Saying that "I am not going to talk with you any more" can be said for good reasons and bad ones. I think the record shows that I have made every effort to converse with John and be fair with him. But if someone rejects the very grounds of discussion, should we not at some point take him seriously when he asserts that it is all about power, and therefore walk away?
October 4 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Yes! That's true! But if you're arguing about the word truth, and you don't even know what the other person thinks when you say 'truth' then you're not going to get very far.
October 4 at 1:34pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the thing outside the mind.
October 4 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Though perhaps you went through all that already when I wasn't looking.
October 4 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Refusing to admit external truth / fact and denying all logical argument but thinking that math and science is somehow excluded since he thinks that stuff is ok.
October 4 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I just butted in without reading all those comments.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Way to long.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sorry.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland TL;DR
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland However entirely apropos.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ^I don't know what that means.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Jeff and Jeffrey really have tried. But it is an impassable (by speech) impass as both Aristotle and Avicenna point out.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Too long, Don't read
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (I think)
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
October 4 at 1:36pm · Like
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Brian Kemple "Thing outside the mind" presupposes a modern epistemology. Veritas est adequatio intellectus et rei. A res can be in the mind just as well as outside.
October 4 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That makes sense.
October 4 at 1:37pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Oh and according to Ashman, I invented the Uncaused cause proof. He liked that one... "Nobody has ever said it that way before"
October 4 at 1:37pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Brian, that is fair.
October 4 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I was just trying to speak with the common lingo.
October 4 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman To show I am hip.
October 4 at 1:38pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman and "with it."
October 4 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Why is "modernism" thrown around like a vulgarity?
October 4 at 1:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because it is all nasty and unscholastic.
October 4 at 1:39pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill In which way?
October 4 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No actually, one should distinguish: "Modernism" refers to the heresy condemned by Pius X.
October 4 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "Modern" can refer to all kinds of things.
October 4 at 1:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Modern philosophy refers to all philosophy from Descartes, on.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Catherine, speech has limits. If the day ever comes when someone says to you that he is speaking to you only to get power over you, then you would be right to walk away. That would not be solipsism. To think that more dialogue is always the right path would be to play God, which itself would be a kind of solipsism.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is ambiguous where post modernity begins.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Modern philosophy begins with an erroneous presupposition which is unconsciously followed by all of its adherents; both the so-called "rationalists" or "idealists" and the "empiricists" presume that the ideas within our minds are the direct objects of our understanding.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Modern architecture is associated with the 40's on.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Although now we have begun post-modern architecture.
October 4 at 1:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Modern poetry is identified mostly with the likes of Eliot and others... Ask a poet about this one.
October 4 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Modern art begins with Picasso.
October 4 at 1:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Modern literature, is a debate.
October 4 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did someone call for a poet?
October 4 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The term "Modernity" refers to the vague notion of a common idea uniting all of those things called modern.
October 4 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Isak. What is the first modern novel.
October 4 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Poem?
October 4 at 1:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Literature is also in the postmodern phase, Daniel.
October 4 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I suspected as much.
October 4 at 1:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I define post-modernity as the response to the alienation from things, philosophy, and culture that resulted from the effects of modernity. Post-modernity is an attempt to recover our connection to things, philosophy, and culture by looking back to times where we thing that connection still existed.
October 4 at 1:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Oh yeah! Modern music. Began in the early 20th century.
October 4 at 1:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know if that helped you, Jeff. But it certainly helped pad my stats.
October 4 at 1:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Where is Edward Langley and his "Statistical Magic," anyhow
October 4 at 1:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
October 4 at 1:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Modernism in poetry is hard to pin down. I think its roots might lie in Walt Whitman, but it really crystallized in William Carlos Williams, Marianne Moore and Ezra Pound.
October 4 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That is probably fair, Isak.
October 4 at 1:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm post nouveau modern.... Or at least I used to be
October 4 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The world of World War I was fertile soil for the alienation of souls.
October 4 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I was just finding it funny in posts yesterday that anyone would use the accusation that a certain belif or thought would be "modernist"... As if to label someone or to admit to a given label is a vile accusation.
October 4 at 1:51pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There it was used to accuse the person of holding the modernist heresy, defined and condemned by Pius X.
October 4 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill "You aren't a modernist are you!!!!" Or calling a statement "that's modern, you aren't modern are you".
October 4 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Then the theatre was changed / To something else."
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~af.../88/of-modern-poetry.html
"Of Modern Poetry," Wallace Stevens
Document URL: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/of-modern-poetry.html Last modified: Wednesday, 18-Jul-2007 16:27:55 EDT
WRITING.UPENN.EDU
October 4 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Daniel, you're a Jansonist!!!!! (Not quite the same level of incrimination.)
October 4 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nope, note a Jansenist.
October 4 at 1:54pm · Like
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Jeff Neill My favorite was being accused of being a Marxist.
October 4 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Modernism, a specific heresy in matters of the Faith, is not comparable to modernism the movement in poetry.
October 4 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No clue why though.
October 4 at 1:55pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I think you're all a bunch of quasi-Donatist-reverse-Pelagian semi-Modernists, and should suffer the wrath of a lukewarm hot tub.
October 4 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Ok... Is the beer cold?
October 4 at 1:56pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Although the word bears a negative connotation among many. Some of the world's greatest English poets could be categorized as modernist.
October 4 at 1:56pm · Like
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Brian Kemple It's only slightly below room temperature! Ha ha ha!
October 4 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond What then is modernism the movement in poetry?
October 4 at 1:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Hey I think I was just accused of being a pelican dentist..... Do they have teeth?)
October 4 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Wallace Stevens poem above is a great example. It is practically its own subject.
October 4 at 1:58pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is that what defines modernism?
October 4 at 1:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm not sure if I could define modernism in poetry, or just list some of its characteristics.
October 4 at 1:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please do.
October 4 at 1:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Sorry, hold on - talking at cross purposes
October 4 at 1:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please do list some of its characteristics.
October 4 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [Modernism specifically has its root in a philosophic error that Pius calls agnosticism (see Brian Kempe above). It lays the axe to the root of faith, striking all doctrines.]
October 4 at 2:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Specific style being given a chategoriAtion is very interesting especially when the classification changes due to an external action. "Anything after x is y". (Note no matter how many times I tried re typing the chategoriAtion it freaking autocorrects to having a capital a)
October 4 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My impression of modern art, in general, is a breaking away from former forms and norms of art, with a view to express the whole panoply of human experience, with little to no regard to traditional standards of beauty.
October 4 at 2:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I would say that the most significant characteristic of modern poetry is that formally speaking, attention is paid to the composition of the single line more than to the structure of the whole stanza. Another general trait is that poems should be written in the vernacular, and could take as its subject even the most quotidian things. This was likely a reaction to what was perceived to be the excesses and floridness of Victorian poetry.
October 4 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill And misspelled
October 4 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And now I'm beginning to think there's actually a deep connection between Modernism the heresy and modernism in poetry...
October 4 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond My suspicion, too.
October 4 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Is mark twain a poet?
October 4 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A connection, not a conspiracy.
October 4 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman They all stem from the same "spirit."
October 4 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Is that spirit a rejection of form?
October 4 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Of course it's a little misleading to talk of "the vernacular" in poetry, since the language of a poem, even if simple, is best if uncommon.
October 4 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Isak, what do you think of my general impression above
October 4 at 2:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict We'd have to ask what kind of form is being rejected. Even Eliot was a highly formal poet, though his lines don't appear on the page like a sonnet or a villanelle.
October 4 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Do all forms of modernism express emotion and shun intelligibility (as Pius X points out religion becomes mere sentiment, easy prey for pseudo mysticism)?
October 4 at 2:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You said above that the line becomes more important than the stanza. So too the word over the line?
October 4 at 2:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The emphasis of form in modern poetry seems to me to be on the individual lines, not on the structure of the whole.
October 4 at 2:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Certainly emotion seems to be very important. Heck, modern painters just attempt to paint emotions without subject.
October 4 at 2:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Regarding modern art?
It seems that modern art is more in the intent and interpretation as opposed to the substance.
So this meets the emotion requirement without intelligibility.
October 4 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Perhaps! I even heard of some one-word poems recently.
October 4 at 2:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Word.
October 4 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Which word?
October 4 at 2:11pm · Like
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Isak Benedict All the one word poems I saw had long titles...
October 4 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond In other words, are the modern poets, like the modern painters, simply following modern philosophy in rejecting form in favor of matter?
October 4 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I'd add a little to Isak's point and say that, while modern poetry most often pays greater attention to the single line, the more prevailing trait is the abandonment of a consistent poetic structure throughout the composition--both in meter and stanza form.
I would further suggest that modernism in both poetry and modernism the heresy both stem from modernism in philosophy; for ultimately, whether one follows the line of empiricism or the line of rationalism, one ends up with the mind being the final arbiter of the real and therefore of the good. Hence, heretical modernism--which we might clarify by adding to it the less ambiguous term progressivism (construed as a belief that progress as an increase in efficiency and a decrease in pain and toil is necessarily the good)--consists largely in the error that man is the author of his own destiny, and modernism in poetry consists largely in the tendency to attempt creatively imposing the raw structure of one's own conceptual patternings on the relatively malleable material of a language.
October 4 at 2:13pm · Like · 5
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Jeff Neill Do they need to know the form to reject it?
October 4 at 2:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Or rather, for the the moderns, form is the accidental outcome of something mysterious in the matter.
October 4 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple (Which isn't to say that T.S. Eliot isn't an absolute boss.)
October 4 at 2:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But consider this lovely one-line poem by Joseph Hutchinson, titled "Artichoke."
"O heart weighed down by so many wings."
I think this is an excellent poem. It sheds new light on the thing itself, and helps reveal it as beautiful.
October 4 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, Jeff, I agree. Picasso was a master of line, but he chose to break from it.
October 4 at 2:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The equivalent in modern literature is the elevation of character over plot. Aristotle, however, says that plot is the first principle and, as it were, the soul of a tragedy. He compares it to painting: "The most beautiful colors, laid on confusedly, will not give as much pleasure as the chalk outline of a portrait." How the worm has turned!
October 4 at 2:21pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I think the naturally gifted artist does experience the world differently from the rest of us and expresses their experience in their work.
They have a personal style and intent in their actions and the work produced does reflect back to them who they are.
Now, if they know structure and form and break from it is one thing but, what if they do not have the "formal" training, how would the style be described?
October 4 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It just seems some categories are intentional and some accidental. I'm not sure when a category of style is best perfected by the first of its kind or by another who adopts the style.
October 4 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond At times it seems that modern art is nothing more than wallpaper, which can be pretty. Or, as Aristotle said, "beautiful colors laid on confusedly." But the absence of form would separate it from art, because it would not be intelligible without form.
October 4 at 2:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel what general impression did you mean?
October 4 at 2:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond In Brideshead Revisited, Cordelia asks Charles, “Modern Art is all bosh, isn’t it ?” Charles replies “great bosh”.
October 4 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "One must be absolutely modern." - Rimbaud
October 4 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-310 Yale has a class on modern poetry... I guess you can access the whole thing for free.
Open Yale Courses | Modern Poetry
This course covers the body of modern poetry, its characteristic techniques, concerns, and major...
OYC.YALE.EDU
October 4 at 2:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Make it New!" - Ezra Pound
October 4 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I once read all of Pound's correspondence in the rare book room at the U of Chicago. I remember quite well his insistence that he and other poets were doing something quite new and quite different, but for the life of me I cannot remember why he thought so.
October 4 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill This does make me want to pull out my grandmother's poetry book collection in the garage..... Old book reading. So smelly.
October 4 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Of course, as Plato says, it may not be best to ask the poets themselves what they are trying to say!
October 4 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Brian Kemple wrote above:
"I would further suggest that modernism in both poetry and modernism the heresy both stem from modernism in philosophy; for ultimately, whether one follows the line of empiricism or the line of rationalism, one ends up with the mind being the final arbiter of the real and therefore of the good. Hence, heretical modernism--which we might clarify by adding to it the less ambiguous term progressivism (construed as a belief that progress as an increase in efficiency and a decrease in pain and toil is necessarily the good)--consists largely in the error that man is the author of his own destiny, and modernism in poetry consists largely in the tendency to attempt creatively imposing the raw structure of one's own conceptual patternings on the relatively malleable material of a language."
I think Brian is on the mark here, but I would add, given that the present subject is literature, poetry and painting, that the modern mind also sees itself as the final arbiter of not only the true and the good, but also the beautiful. I continue to suspect, then, that modern art is modern by virtue of its rejection of form in favor of the celebration of unfettered matter.
October 4 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Brian's comment makes me think of what St. Thomas wrote on the relationship of the good and the beautiful: "Beauty and good in a subject are the same, for they are based upon the same thing, namely, the form; and consequently good is praised as beauty. But they differ logically, for good properly relates to the appetite (good being what all things desire), and therefore it has the aspect of an end (for the appetite is a kind of movement towards a thing). On the other hand, beauty relates to the knowing power, for beautiful things are those which please, when seen. Hence beauty consists in due proportion, for the senses delight in things duly proportioned, as in what is after their own kind--because even sense is a sort of reason, just as is every knowing power. Now, since knowledge is by assimilation, and likeness relates to form, beauty properly belongs to the nature of a formal cause" (First Part Q 5, Art. 4).
Is then the rejection of form the link between modern philosophy, modernism, and modern art?
October 4 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I think it'd be helpful if you clarify what you're understanding in this instance by "form", and what "matter" would be apart from form?
October 4 at 3:13pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Form apart from the proper matter, or the thing itself.
October 4 at 3:17pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Since St. Thomas' criteria for beauty, namely, integrity, proportion, and clarity, seem to be derived from the visual arts, it seems easier to talk about painting than about poetry, but perhaps these criteria can be extended into the other fine arts as well. I am thinking, then, of what Boethius meant when he said that the form is like a light by which we know a thing. The shape, or outline--the form, in this case--is what makes a painting intelligible and pleasing to us, whereas the colors (here the matter) confusedly laid on make the painting neither intelligible nor pleasing. In the Poetics, Aristotle likens the plot to the outline of a portrait (the form), and likens the characters (the matter) to the colors laid on confusedly, i.e., without form.
October 4 at 3:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sometimes I think the matter/form distinction is too easy to make.
But then again I think it applies best to works of art (artifact - human making generally)
October 4 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Following Brian Kemple's suggestion (though he may want to disown what follows), I am thinking that modern art, which decries intention and purpose in natural forms, is following modern philosophy and science, which sees no higher purpose or intention in the natural order, but only random matter. For example, we see this rejection of natural form in the architectural principles, or rather anti-principles, which exhibit themselves in the infamous Pompidou Center in Paris. Here the guts of the building, what is taken to be the "real stuff"--namely, the pipes for the plumbing and the ventilation shafts for air conditioning and heating--are turned inside-out, as it were, so that they "form" the outward appearance of the building. Isn't the point of this technique that the form is a counterfeit, an illusion, since the "real" building is the matter, not the form?
October 4 at 4:01pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, womb transplants are a thing now:
http://apnews.myway.com/.../eu-med--womb_transplant_baby...
My Way News - Medical first: Baby born to woman who got new womb
Medical first: Baby born to woman who got new womb
APNEWS.MYWAY.COM
October 4 at 3:51pm · Like
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John Ashman End of the world ^^^^
October 4 at 3:53pm · Like
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John Ashman "Unfortunately John will take this joke as confirmation that everyone who disagrees with him is trying to put him to death or send him to Hell."
Strawman ^^^^^^ I have never said this.
October 4 at 3:57pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The Pointilists also come to mind. Implicit in their paintings, it seems to me, is the view of nature as composed of bits of matter, the structure and organization of which is not in the natural things themselves, but in the mind of the observer. The so-called forms here are not essential, but rather accidental unities, pieced together by the viewer who makes meaning out of the chaotic sense data which he perceives. Here, too, modern art seems to follow modern philosophy insofar as it views form as that which is constructed by the human mind since nature provides nothing beyond the raw material. This I took to be Brian Kemple's point, that modern man thinks he can know his own mind, but that he cannot know things as they really are.
October 4 at 3:57pm · Like
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John Ashman " I think the record shows that I have made every effort to converse with John and be fair with him."
Assertion not based in actual history ^^^^^
October 4 at 3:58pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman "Catherine, speech has limits. If the day ever comes when someone says to you that he is speaking to you only to get power over you, then you would be right to walk away. That would not be solipsism. To think that more dialogue is always the right path would be to play God, which itself would be a kind of solipsism."
I think you have solipsism on the brain. I don't even know what you're trying to say.
October 4 at 4:04pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Ro_QC2V9U
David Bowie - Pablo Picasso
Pablo Picasso is a song written by Jonathan Richman and performed here by David Bowie. It is from the album...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 4 at 4:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, I appreciate the vote of confidence. The problem, as I see it, with someone that asserts that there is no truth (aside from the self-contradictory nature of the comment itself) is analogous to the "enlightened self-interest" people. There is no truth always falls into solipsism, whereas the Randian "objectivist" re-interprets all actions by means of their architectonic principle of "self-interest". Neither can be reasoned with, and neither deserves the time spent
October 4 at 4:09pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple Okay, so I think it's nice to make a distinction between the modern conception of form and the properly Aristotelian notion: to the modern, form is the intellectual conception of the thing alone, such that the real presence of form as a principle in the things themselves is disavowed. Consequently, any notion of an inherent telos of those things is discarded, such that the imposition of any form whatsoever is entirely valid, and not an abuse; there is, after all, only matter, and its present configuration is arbitrary.
Contrariwise, the Aristotelian notion of form and matter is such that, in beings the essence of which includes matter (as a specific kind of potency, namely, that of a change in place), there cannot be a separation of form from matter--for form is not only that whereby the matter is as it is, but that whereby it is at all. Consequently, every bit of matter, no matter how minute, has an innate telos, an ordering in and through its form as that which makes it to be the kind of thing that it is, and necessarily therefore also determines that to which it is in potency.
And again this goes to the issue of epistemology: if there is no way whereby the form in the things themselves is capable of being ascertained, to at least some degree, by the human who perceives those things themselves, then form remains an arbitrary construct of the mind.
So, I think that I'm agreeing with Jeffrey, so long as he agrees that I agree with him about what we're agreeing to agree about.
October 4 at 4:10pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman It isn't that there is no truth, it is that truth is misused quite a bit in philosophy and religion.
October 4 at 4:10pm · Like
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John Ashman It almost always misused when "universal" is applied to it.
October 4 at 4:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Brian Kemple, do you think that the separation of "knowing that I know" is part of that modern epistemology, as in Descartes' systematic doubt?
October 4 at 4:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Misused truth?
October 4 at 4:13pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Not quite sure what you mean, Michael. Separation from what?
October 4 at 4:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia knowledge separate from knowing that I know, that is:
the intelligible form in some way corresponds to the intellect in Aristotle
but in the modern conception the mind knows ideas, not things, and the self-reflection of "knowing that I know" becomes the issue since all knowledge is purely notional, not real
October 4 at 4:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman Word abuse.
October 4 at 4:15pm · Like
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Brian Kemple It is typical of modern epistemology to assert that knowledge is characterized by certitude, which requires a "knowing that I know," but I'm not so sure about a "separation." Knowing that one knows and knowing something are separate acts in Thomas Aquinas, but in the inverse order: for moderns, since certitude is required first in the generally critical turn (i.e., establishing the certitude from the side of the mind), knowing that one knows is required in order to know anything else. For Thomas, knowing something first is required in order to know that one knows.
But I might be speaking past your question...?
October 4 at 4:19pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman
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Jeffrey Bond I do indeed agree that we are agreeing, Brian Kemple. You set forth the distinction very well. The question is, then, is the modern artist "modern" in virtue of his conviction that form, such as it is, is merely a construct of his "creative" mind? That is to say, is he modern insofar as he rejects form in the traditional sense and celebrates instead his creativity and self-expression (rather than seeing himself as an imitator)?
October 4 at 4:23pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no I think you're getting at the heart of my question, that is fleshing it out a little bit. I'm still a little miffed at yesterday's odd epistemological twists. Certitude has been on my mind, and the focus on it yesterday brought this out.
October 4 at 4:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, do you ever read http://www.thisiscolossal.com/?
Colossal
An art, design, and visual culture blog.
THISISCOLOSSAL.COM
October 4 at 4:25pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond No, I have never seen it. Is it good?
October 4 at 4:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is very modern. Some of it I love, some I dislike. But it is very modern
October 4 at 4:26pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Jeffrey, yes, I think that expresses it correctly. As M.H. Abrams wrote in The Mirror and the Lamp, there are four common approaches to the interpretation of literature, which I think are applicable to other forms of art as well. These four, are as in the attached picture, the mimetic, the formal, the rhetorical, and the expressive. I don't think that they are in any way mutually exclusive, nor do they apply only to the interpretation, but also to the creation. Ancient Greek sculpture is a prime example of mimesis in art; whereas in modern poetry you find unabated expression. If you were to strip away the "world", such that there is no mimesis as such, you're left with the formal--which, in itself, turns out to be something in the "world" in a broader sense--and two ultimately subjective approaches to the work produced.
October 4 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia sometimes there are sculptures made of repurposed junk, sometimes things that actually look like traditional art. This conversation just reminded me of it (it is a daily read for me)
October 4 at 4:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I will have to look at Abrams more closely. It looks interesting. Based upon our present discussion, it looks to me like the modern artist leaps madly into the void which modern man calls "reality," and asserts himself as the true creator, the demiurge or god who fashions a world according to his own fancy. As you previously stated, there can be no abuse--the imposition of any form is valid--since all configurations are equally arbitrary. Rather than attempt to express universal truth through beauty, the modern artist seeks merely to express himself, a self now disconnected from any objective order. Untutored by nature, and with an unfettered imagination, he creates a free-floating, free association of formlessness. He does not reveal meaning; he makes it.
October 4 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Once recognized as surrealism... Now my kids' paintings qualify. (I really like their paintings, but I got to watch them make them.)
October 4 at 4:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The problem for the self-deified modern artist is that he can only create in a qualified sense, and not in the absolute sense which belongs to God and to God alone. The modern artist seeks to "deconstruct" form, but he cannot wholly do without it. (I think Jeff Neill was making this point earlier in this discussion.) Consider the Cubist school of which Picasso is the supreme example. Because it is not really possible to create absolutely new forms, Picasso must represent the natural form of a woman's face, for example, in such a way that it is not so completely distorted that it cannot be recognized as a woman, and he does so by way of an intentionally confused and confusing imposition of still another natural form--the cube. But what is this if not the perfect parallel in the artistic world to the modern philosopher who claims there is no objective truth? In order to reject truth, he must implicitly assume that very truth which he rejects. Likewise, Picasso, who seems to be attempting to undermine nature as a standard, cannot even express his rebellion against form without relying upon that which he wishes to discard.
October 4 at 4:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I just dug out of my files an article from years past that I had saved because it came close to deifying the artist as the true Creator. It appeared in the "Art Guide" of the Fine Arts section of the New York Times on January 15, 1999. The author was reviewing a Jackson Pollock exhibit in the Museum of Modern Art:
"A landmark. If you care about art, you live for exhibitions like this, in which an artist, against the heavy odds of his skewed talent and unhinged personality, pursued something so wild, untested and mysterious that its full meaning was unclear even to him, yet who, briefly, wrung from his peculiar system of painting one variation after another. Pollock was a quintessential American because of his aspiration to make something from what seemed like nothing. Sometimes he botched the results, but this was intrinsic to a process that consciously flirted with incoherence: accidents, on which his art depended, had to be held in tension with acts of extreme control, and the exhibition is instructive for letting you see some of his failures, which by contrast clarify his successes."
Reading this review now, some fourteen years later, I am still mystified. The line about "consciously flirting with incoherence" is priceless. What's next? Unconsciously flirting with coherence?
October 4 at 5:36pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There are so many fantastic artists of all kinds today. It's just that they are hard to find, as they are in most times and places.
October 4 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Thankfully the truly great ones, like Merle Haggard ("The Fightin' Side of Me"), are never hidden from the public eye!
October 4 at 6:39pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I think all art is about the audience, although that seems most accidental.
I do think that art in general is a depicted form but in alternate matter; and that a modern tendency is to abstract more and more form away until the audience has to make some kind of leap to understand what was intended.
People like it in the same way they like solving puzzles since the parts can not be understood without the whole.
But in this way, people do not always like extremely accurate portraits. Almost that without mystery it is boring, but factual.
The more factual it is the student may actually pour over the details looking for flaws, a tedious task.
I think this can also be seen in poetry and literature. (Or any of the arts).
The problem being that the audience is so accustomed to flawed art that they doubt even accurate work and deny that it could be understood as factual.
October 4 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I just want to make the comment that calling someone solipsistic in an argument is the philosophical equivalent of "troll!!!!" It has no real substance and is simply a manner of diminshing someone else's argument because yours isn't standing up.
Not talking about anyone in particular Jeffrey Bond.
October 4 at 6:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia, was it the "repurposed junk" part that reminded you of tNET?
October 4 at 6:53pm · Like · 4
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Nina Rachele speaking of modern art, has anyone else been to the Barnes foundation museum in philadelphia? i am guessing a few of you...
October 4 at 6:57pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer must
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Jeff Neill Ashman
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
YOUTUBE.COM
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Jeffrey Bond I have you now!
October 4 at 7:04pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger good job, Dr. Spaceman.
October 4 at 7:11pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Dr to you
October 4 at 7:09pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The star maker says, "It ain't so bad"
The dream maker's gonna make you mad;
The spaceman says, "Everybody look down
It's all in your mind"
It's all in my mind
It's all in my mind
It's all in my mind
It's all in my mind
It's all in my mind
October 4 at 7:11pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Matthew J. Peterson, I fully agree with your comments about 22 hrs ago. And with Brian Kemple's observation, though I would put it differently. It is what I was trying to get at with distinguishing between subjective certitude (which is the prime character of knowledge in Aquinas) and experiential certainty. One is simply the determination of the faculty in knowing, the other is the "experience" of being certain. The latter is mistaken often for the former. I vaguely recall Louis doing that, and it is fairly clear to me that Michael is as well.
And I fully agree, as St. Thomas said, that one could not exhaust the nature of a fly with a lifetime of study. That was the point I was trying to convey by repeatedly alluding to the beginning of the Physics...children call all men father and then they divide. Clear and distinct /= knowledge and men, in their apprehension (which itself cannot be false) are still often confused and bumbling. As we know more, we divide more, as it were. And certainly with the faith that process doesn't have a term.
Though I still think I can know that I know that I know, even if sometimes I am wrong that I know that I know, and even though I cannot answer how it is that I know, let alone how I know that I know that I know, you know? I am fine without having to establish a treatise of epistemology in saying things like Trent does, "the absolute certitude of faith", and knowing that those with said absolute certitude, still bumble around propositions....
October 4 at 7:19pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia don't you find language as purely argumentation really sad? but then again dividing the world between "self" and "other" is kind of sad too, especially when it is "other to be overcome". It is a sad and violent outlook on life. (and really solipsistic)
October 4 at 7:17pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Being is. No doubt about it.
October 4 at 7:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Solipsistic only recognizes self. There is no "other". Libertarians are not solipsistic because it is based in natural rights, which requires empathy for all humans. Now, anarchists....they might be solipsistic.
October 4 at 7:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Potential force is not actual force.
Although some claim potential force is acting if perceived. Hence, "the police officer is exerting force while doing nothing"
October 4 at 7:25pm · Like
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John Ashman Potential force is called "coercion".
October 4 at 7:26pm · Like
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John Ashman Coercion is an action. And a crime for many purposes.
October 4 at 7:27pm · Like
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John Ashman By your standards, car-jacking isn't a crime. Rape is not a crime. You can get cooperation with the threat of death, so by your standard, they agreed to have their car taken, or agreed to have sex.
October 4 at 7:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Thank God you're no longer a cop apparently.
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Jeff Neill
October 4 at 7:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I know it is often said that the law of non-contradiction is the first principle of the speculative intellect, but I have often wondered whether the proposition "Being is" is more fundamental. Can I really understand the law of non-contradiction if I haven't first grasped as self-evident the proposition that "Being is"?
October 4 at 7:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Being is, non being is not.
But Mr. Bond our judgment is not infallible, so we don't know this as God does, therefore we might me be wrong, even though it is very unlikely....#bolingnosis
In seriousness, who could doubt that they know that judgment, without any fear of the contrary being true? So there we have it, an evidential case where we know that we know, and so we can know that we know that we know, something is not much.
October 4 at 7:40pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond But what are your thoughts as to which proposition is the most fundamental?
October 4 at 7:43pm · Like
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Brian Kemple "Being is", as first known, is not properly a proposition. We do not first distinguish between the subject and predicate in ens ut primum cognitum. Cf. Brian Kemple, Ens ut primum cognitum in Thomas Aquinas and the Tradition (forthcoming doctoral dissertation).
October 4 at 7:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Yes, come back.
October 4 at 7:52pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Intelligible being is the first object of the intellect, but the first proposition is being is not non-being
I agree with Kemple above.
October 4 at 7:52pm · Like
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John Ashman Wait....I sense....something wrong....in the Force.
October 4 at 7:53pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Why is "Being is not non-being" prior to "Being is being"?
October 4 at 7:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley You can doubt it, Joshua Kenz, because perhaps the predicate is not contained in the subject . . . #torontognosis
October 4 at 7:55pm · Like
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Brian Kemple We formulate what we recognize as the primum cognitum by a proposition, but in the actual realization, the distinction has not yet been made between subject and predicate. Likewise in "being is not non-being", we do not have clear formulations of these two things, but distinguish between that which is present to us and that which is compared to that which is present but is not.
October 4 at 7:58pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Bond, because being is being is what exactly? Being is? Or just being?
I guess....dang it Kemple beat me again. I agree it is helpful to remember we are talking about things that happen in our development before we can even remember, before language.....
October 4 at 7:59pm · Like
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Jeff Neill PB almost missed the poetry discussion.
October 4 at 7:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz PB? Peanut butter?
October 4 at 7:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But is such a distinction (between being and not being) possible without first grasping that being is. That is what puzzles me.
October 4 at 8:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But isn't being simply?
I mean, that first apprehension is of is "is-ing" It is not like I apprehended "is" and apprehending "is-ing" and judge that is is is-ing (being just makes it sound too different)
It just is.
October 4 at 8:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, Peregrino Bonaventura, nice to see you around again, unless this is the first time you've shown up.
October 4 at 8:08pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz If I were Whine-booger I would be careful of making yet another duplicate account to troll with...they can link via ip address and block you via ip
October 4 at 8:09pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland It's the italian renaissance of TNET's arch troll
October 4 at 8:11pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Joshua Kenz and Brian Kemple, I appreciate your thoughts, and I think I see the argument, but I still find myself divided on this. I will have to think on it.
October 4 at 8:16pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Ok last photo)
The long arm of the grammar police will have their day with this outlaw
October 4 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple The first intellectual realization of being, ens ut primum cognitum, consists in the acceptance, acknowledgement, or understanding (however one wants to phrase it, really) that there is something which is not simply related to oneself as perceived by the powers of sense perception, but *is* in itself, such that, as is discovered in subsequent acts of intellection, both what it is and that it is, is something independent of oneself as the perceiver. This is the fundamental distinction between animal and human intelligence, and gives rise to the possibility of universals..
October 4 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Apropos of nothing on TNET so far, does anyone know if there is any particular order to the way the Psalms are arranged in the Bible? Or are they just kind of compiled and thrown together?
October 4 at 8:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Holy moley, he's back!
October 4 at 9:03pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Robertson
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/PsalmsAquinas/ThoPs0.htm
He gives eeveral "divisions"
St. Thomas's Introduction to his Exposition of the Psalms of David
DHSPRIORY.ORG
October 4 at 9:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Speaking of St. Thomas and scripture, I went to Dr. Waldstein's (@Pater Edmund's father) talk on Dei Verbum at the Dominican House of Studies in DC. It was quite good. It turned out to be mostly about St. Thomas, so I was happy! Dr. Neumayr was there as well (!) and I was able to chat with him too.
October 4 at 9:18pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland ^Recently? Sounds wonderful!
October 4 at 9:12pm · Like
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Joel HF This afternoon.
October 4 at 9:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Optime!
October 4 at 9:15pm · Like
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Joel HF He's an amazing lecturer. Surpassed my expectations.
October 4 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell What was Dr. Neumayer doing in D.C.? Does he live there now?
October 4 at 9:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond An amazing lecturer, and very funny, too.
October 4 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF He was visiting family.
October 4 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Neumayr I mean.
October 4 at 9:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is he the sole founder who is still teaching at TAC?
October 4 at 9:22pm · Like
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Joel HF Sadly, he retired this year, but he is the sole surviving academic founder. He's writing a history of the founding and I very much hope he finishes it.
October 4 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Neumayr is a man who cannot talk for five minutes (if that long) without beginning to philosophize in the proper sense of the term. Though he has many remarkably entertaining anecdotes, he doesn't really do small talk. They are all at the service of his philosophical points.
October 4 at 9:25pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeffrey Bond A good man. And a good b-ball player to boot. As a young tutor at TAC, I especially appreciated his many kindnesses.
October 4 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco Wish I could have been at that conference.
October 4 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Elliot Milco How was TJ White's talk?
October 4 at 9:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Unfortunately, I was only able to go to the one talk. I really wanted to make it to that one though.
October 4 at 9:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Do you know if they will put up the audio?
October 4 at 9:32pm · Like
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Elliot Milco They've started doing that.
October 4 at 9:39pm · Like
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Elliot Milco They should post a couple of the lectures on SoundCloud in coming days.
October 4 at 9:40pm · Like
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Elliot Milco https://soundcloud.com/thomisticinstitute
The Thomistic Institute
SOUNDCLOUD.COM
October 4 at 9:40pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Excellent.
October 4 at 9:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Vintage:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/news/vintage-videos-dr-mcarthur
Dr. Ronald P. McArthur: Essays & Videos | Thomas Aquinas College
Alumnus Phil Halpin (’97) has uploaded two vintage...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 4 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Andrew Whaley And so it begins....
October 4 at 9:51pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia again
October 4 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia education begins with booze. I think I'll go get educated now
October 4 at 9:54pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Only a few more posts until 'AT'
October 4 at 9:55pm · Like
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Megan Baird I see TNET has returned to the beginning...like a great big never-ending circle....
October 4 at 9:58pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger A falcon that screeches and but one "song"?
October 4 at 10:04pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hey, Scott, welcome back!
October 4 at 10:05pm · Like
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Edward Langley Are you too afraid to use your real name?
October 4 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Bonaventura, the welcome is worn out.
October 4 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird It seems to me that we're veering dangerously close to what was already beaten to death literally thousands and thousands of replies ago...
October 4 at 10:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "We shall not cease from tNetting, and the end of all our tNetting will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
October 4 at 10:13pm · Like · 8
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Jeffrey Bond It may be that the thread will tie us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
October 4 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Please welcome Lady Peregrino back to the stage!
October 4 at 10:22pm · Like
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Nina Rachele is this some kind of sideways fight to the 30,000 comment
October 4 at 10:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The alternative is this:
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us-if at all-not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The thread men.
October 4 at 10:23pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict "The thread men" HAHAHA
October 4 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Of course it is.... it's either that or strolling down memory lane like Samantha Cohoe and I did some thousands of responses back.
October 4 at 10:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This is the way tNET ends
This is the way tNET ends
This is the way tNET ends
Not with a bang but a Peregrino.
October 4 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I'll bite. Wisdom as "knowledge of the Divine"
October 4 at 10:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Is Peregrino gone for everyone else?
October 4 at 10:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no I see him
October 4 at 10:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley He must have blocked me.
October 4 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Like the Troll Phoenix
October 4 at 10:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Weird Edward, I seem to have a better time being blocked and called "troll" than you...
October 4 at 10:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland #Peregrinognosis
October 4 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer 1
October 4 at 10:41pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 2
October 4 at 10:41pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 3
October 4 at 10:41pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 4
October 4 at 10:41pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 5
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 6
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 7
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 8
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 9
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I don't see him.
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer 10
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 11
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 12
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 13
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 14
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley at
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 15
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Stop that!!
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer 16
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Stop! Doesn't count!
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer 17
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley at
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer 18
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley at
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Cheating!
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer oh
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland "at" is okay
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer what some call cheating
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Maybe.
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think you got it, Catherine.
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer others reckon as efficiency
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Thanks Jeff, you're the only other 00 here helping
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Who got it?
October 4 at 10:42pm · Like
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Sam Rocha This was established as cheating some time ago.
October 4 at 10:42pm · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Stouffer yeah, 30k
October 4 at 10:43pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Catherine, your "Stop! Doesn't count!" was the 30,000th comment
October 4 at 10:43pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Stouffer what some call establishment, others call a challenge to overthrow.
October 4 at 10:43pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Stouffer Congratulations, Catherine!
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Good timing! Good game all. Wasn't even trying for it. (How can you tell who was 30,000?)
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Cheaters never prosper.
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia count back.
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Should have said 'at'...
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz By counting every comment individuallu
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Catherine Ryland, counting back from the last comment.
October 4 at 10:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Or seeing the total and counting backwards
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia first
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley There's an "edit" feature Catherine, the wrong must be righted.
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I say leave the comment as is
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz It it is appropriate
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Hmm, doesn't seem quite kosher.
October 4 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the Hell? Peregrino?
October 4 at 10:46pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Wow, I can't believe I got 30,000. Thank you everyone, thank you so much.
October 4 at 10:46pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland I feel so honored.
October 4 at 10:46pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Seems more fitting than Peregrine...over hyped product with little substance, but lot of pretension
October 4 at 10:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia by volume, some of us should have had it instead.... but you're deserving.
October 4 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Is San Peregrino still there?
October 4 at 10:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Catherine Ryland I bait trolls.
October 4 at 10:47pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia good for you. I troll
October 4 at 10:47pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland This is my self-appointed TNET occupation.
October 4 at 10:47pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ashman Is this the REAL Peregrine? Or a recently made up similacrum? Because the name has shifted.....
October 4 at 10:48pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Ignoring John assman is one of my favorite tactics.... but referring to him obliquely.... loads of trolling fun
October 4 at 10:48pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Who here has kept up with reading the whole thread? Joel?
October 4 at 10:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia me
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia sadly
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I thoguth so.
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Ignoring. You're not doing it right.
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov 30k, no big deal. I will have 100k.
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Beitia is close to half of the thread anyway.
October 4 at 10:49pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I find it appropriate that Catherine got 30,000 with "stop. doesn't count."
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I still contend that Peregrine/Peregrino has been made up all along to keep the thread going.
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not sure Peregrino
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like
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Megan Baird There's a message there, isn't it?
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley me
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you'd have to give me an example I could look up
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Well, let's not let it stop TNET. Nothing can.
October 4 at 10:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia thanks Edward, I don't feel like such a loser now
October 4 at 10:51pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird TNET is, inasmuch as such things can be, eternal.
October 4 at 10:51pm · Like
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Megan Baird Maybe Beitia is really Peregrine in disguise.
October 4 at 10:51pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia I don't think that
October 4 at 10:51pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Where are we going to have TNET party? I say when we hit one of the hundred thousands.
October 4 at 10:52pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia Megan, I'd slap you
October 4 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland I always thought so.
October 4 at 10:51pm · Like
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John Ashman [me giving Scott the finger] - that's how you know it's me.
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Is Peregrino afraid of me?
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I'm touched.....literally.
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Yes, Ed
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland He always called Beetia the most names, so I suspected him or Peterson.
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like
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Megan Baird Catherine, don't you mean Beithia?
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Bullshit.
October 4 at 10:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We are going to have cross between a conference and burning man.
October 4 at 10:53pm · Like · 5
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John Ashman Feel free! You're not even real truth.
October 4 at 10:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson At tNET 100k
October 4 at 10:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Matthew J. Peterson, you of all people know I'm not Perescott etc etc
October 4 at 10:53pm · Like
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John Ashman This is a new iteration. It could be anyone.
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not me
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like
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Megan Baird Nah, I'd never believe Beitia was really Peregrine ... he could never say that stuff without choking.
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm no scholar, just vulgar
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Why does everyone get all snippetty about Peregrino Bonaventura?!?
I don't get it. Why is anyone even batting an eye? Live and let live. After all these comments, you people STILL get up in arms?!?
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like · 4
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Oleg Kostoglotov I think it is Matthew J. Peterson in order to keep his baby tNET alive.
October 4 at 10:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Scott is the original Peregrine. But this could be like, you know, Falcon being Captain America. Or, technically, Captain America pretending to be The Falcon.
October 4 at 11:01pm · Edited · Like
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Megan Baird I'm not up in arms. I'm amused.
October 4 at 10:55pm · Like
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John Ashman I'm not up in arms, I just don't think it's really Scott.
October 4 at 10:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I actually tried to engage Peregrino Bonaventura. don't point the finger at me
October 4 at 10:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I don't see Isak anywhere.
October 4 at 10:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Of course, Matthew was one of the first to befriend this new Peregrin[o]
October 4 at 10:58pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Edward's fault. He's mean and can't admit he is ever wrong and thinks he can understand metaphor in under 5 years.
October 4 at 10:58pm · Unlike · 6
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John Ashman But he wouldn't block me, so I'm going with Isak.
October 4 at 10:58pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you'd have to ask Goyette (who I don't know - so I can't answer for him)
October 4 at 10:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I can't answer for the man, neither can anyone here
October 4 at 11:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "a" gift
October 4 at 11:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there are 7
October 4 at 11:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I just presumed Peregrino = Peregrine, which was Scott Weinberger.
I blocked without even reading a wit of what he said...but it would be awesome trolling to take the name and imitate the great troll himself...
October 4 at 11:01pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia as I've said before....
October 4 at 11:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia <---- jerk
October 4 at 11:02pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia too late, already edited it
October 4 at 11:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In the meantime, Catherine Ryland, all tNETers are welcome to visit our house in Claremont, CA.
October 4 at 11:03pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia beats me? I don't know who any of you people are
October 4 at 11:03pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pegrino cannot be imitated.
October 4 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what is with all you jerks and blocking? Grow a pair and deal with it
October 4 at 11:05pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you sound like Gollum
October 4 at 11:06pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger Catherine and Edward were blocked. I am still laughing.
October 4 at 11:08pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia pretty much
October 4 at 11:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is this the tNET soap opera phase?
October 4 at 11:09pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you never ask me, but I'm always there to answer you
October 4 at 11:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it should...
October 4 at 11:10pm · Like
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Megan Baird Beitia: who the hell are you talking to?
October 4 at 11:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia The only person that's ever blocked me is you, under various incarnations.
October 4 at 11:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Peregrino
October 4 at 11:11pm · Like
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Liz Neill It's Isak!
October 4 at 11:11pm · Like
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Sam Rocha You're back? Is it really you?
October 4 at 11:12pm · Like
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Megan Baird Um, it looks like he's talking to himself....
October 4 at 11:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am much meaner than they.
October 4 at 11:12pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha It's him alright. Whoever it is.
October 4 at 11:14pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not so sure now, Sam
October 4 at 11:14pm · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha Can we kick him out?
October 4 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill If it's Isak or Ashman. Brilliant mate. I get it.
October 4 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Cause you ask too many questions, and you're creeping me out.
October 4 at 11:15pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Now let it go
October 4 at 11:16pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov I think this is the true reason Socrates was put on trial, too many questions.
October 4 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia cause we're pretty sure you're not wearing pants?
October 4 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no you just have to demonstrate that you're still wearing pants
October 4 at 11:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia at least Socrates would have worn pants
October 4 at 11:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I wasn't joking.
October 4 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^probably wearing pants.
October 4 at 11:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Not jordache jeans?
October 4 at 11:20pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland #somebodystolemypants
October 4 at 11:20pm · Like · 3
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Liz Neill Nobody comes between you and your jordache, right?
October 4 at 11:21pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Only one answer per hour.
October 4 at 11:21pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #somebodystolemypantsgnosis
October 4 at 11:21pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia wisdom proceeds by wearing pants when it is appropriate to do so
October 4 at 11:21pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Not this one, peregrine
October 4 at 11:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia probably because you wear the pants, Liz.....
October 4 at 11:23pm · Like · 2
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Liz Neill Peregrin o
October 4 at 11:23pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov The renaissance was caused by rapid advances in pants.
October 4 at 11:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia gird up thy loins in some pants, and I will ask and you will answer
October 4 at 11:23pm · Like
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Liz Neill There there, Beatia
October 4 at 11:24pm · Like · 1
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Liz Neill Was that a fat comment
October 4 at 11:25pm · Like
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Liz Neill Phone auto corrects. Thank you for the gentle correction?
October 4 at 11:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia pants are important - do you deny this?
October 4 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nudist
October 4 at 11:26pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.artofmanliness.com/.../how-to-gird-up-your.../
How to Gird Up Your Loins: An Illustrated Guide
If you've read the Bible, then you've probably come...
ARTOFMANLINESS.COM
October 4 at 11:27pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Look, Oleg Kostoglotov, if tNET is my baby...this was an UNWANTED pregnancy.
October 5 at 1:30am · Edited · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger yes
October 4 at 11:27pm · Like
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Liz Neill Hyman!!!
October 4 at 11:31pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And as much as I think the idea of pretending to be The Peregrine just to mess with you people like a doctor hitting your knee to get that kick reaction over and over, I don't have the energy or the time.
October 4 at 11:29pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think I need a break. I have people making bizarro memes with my name in them, no one admitting the necessity of pants..... this could be it for me.
October 4 at 11:29pm · Like · 5
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Oleg Kostoglotov Girding loins -> putting on pants. "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice," That is where wisdom comes from Peregrine QED.
October 4 at 11:29pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Hey guys, I found them.
October 4 at 11:47pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz You guys with pants and tunic.
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2678307584/h82B35833/
I.CHZBGR.COM
October 4 at 11:49pm · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't even want to know... Actually that's a lie, I'm awfully curious but also tired...
October 5 at 12:04am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Is peregrino still around?
October 5 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It is not him
October 5 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Who is the pretender?
October 5 at 1:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Here, so, this is the best thing I've heard today. Sam Rocha will like this. It's Fabrizio de Andrè, singing Leonard Cohen's "Nancy" translated into Italian. http://youtu.be/KP2zo8qIxC4
Fabrizio de Andrè - Nancy
Una delle canzoni, a mio gusto, più belle di Fabrizio de Andrè tratta dall'album Volume 8 del 1975. Tradotta e...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 5 at 2:23am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell *wins internets*
October 5 at 2:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Pants are overrated.
October 5 at 2:58am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman TNET slumbers on Sundays.
October 5 at 7:35am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond TNET is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have blogged, have blogged, have blogged;
And all is seared with tirade; Bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, tNET is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
Net broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
October 5 at 8:26am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I can see by the comments that some iteration of Pope Scrotch has returned to TNET. I cannot see any of the comments, which means whoever it is has blocked me just as Pope Scrotch did.
I am not sure why anyone jumped to the conclusion that it was me pretending to be Pope Scrotch. I can assure you all that it was most definitely NOT me, as I have better things to do than pose as that sad little man - such as make photoshops of him.
October 5 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict For a new topic - what does TNET think of the haiku as a poetic form? I am currently very much enamored of Basho and Issa and so forth. I did not used to be, but some friends convinced me of the haiku's worth this summer.
October 5 at 8:42am · Like
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John Ruplinger I never liked the haiku, Peregrino, but that may be a moral defect.
October 5 at 8:53am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger We know who the imposter is but his secret is safe with us.
October 5 at 8:59am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond First English haiku?
In a Station of the Metro
The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.
October 5 at 9:24am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ashman I named Isak as prime suspect since a) he was absent and b) has so much fun abusing Falcons.
Since the puppet master is so quick to ban, I'm now guessing this other John or Joshua or some of the several people that are big on preemptively blocking people.
"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand"
October 5 at 9:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman A Haiku for Adrw.
I found a new friend.
Trousers are overrated.
Somebody stole mine.
October 5 at 9:44am · Like · 8
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Daniel Lendman Isak, I like Haiku.
October 5 at 9:45am · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Pound's little poem is not technically haiku. But it's good. Funny that making it new meant making it old.
October 5 at 9:50am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond A Haiku for tNET
A flash of insight!
Reverberations of old--
The Peregrino.
October 5 at 11:03am · Edited · Like · 4
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Joel HF Someone post the "somebody stole my pants" picture of Henry Zepeda
October 5 at 11:05am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond "And here I am, a man without a home! A man without a country! A man without any PANTS!" (Mr. Hardy speaking to Stanley MacLaurel in Bonnie Scotland.)
October 5 at 11:18am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Isak, I like Haiku, although I'm not sure how seriously to take them as a poetic form (in English, at least). The idea of a longer poem, made up of stanzas of Haiku has always intrigued me though.
October 5 at 11:53am · Edited · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple The problem with haiku is that it's really, really easy to do very, very badly, as evidenced by this discussion.
October 5 at 12:02pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund A youtube commentator on why Beowulf should have been a haiku:
«Like I said before, this a DUMB ass OLD ass story bout how a niqqa finna get his ass TAPPED by a damn primordial monster nd shit. They made this poem thick as hell when it really could just be a HAIKU. That shit stupid, why they make this boring ass shit LONG as hell?? Talm bout mfs eating in a damn hall nd shit. Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who don’t got no where to go. Then all the sudden a angry ass Demon come thru and beat the F_CK out everyone»
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsxxg5P-DnY...
October 5 at 12:09pm · Like · 7
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Jeffrey Bond I have a sinking feeling that this may be one of my students . . .
October 5 at 12:14pm · Like · 11
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Joel HF Peregrino is faux Peregrine. He's a phony, I tells ya!
October 5 at 12:17pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond The comment on Beowulf is brilliant, in its own way. Like something out of a Walker Percy novel . . .
October 5 at 12:17pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson When the real Peregrine comes back, there will be hell to pay...
October 5 at 12:17pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Poetry is hard.
October 5 at 12:22pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman
October 5 at 12:23pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman In my mother's year book was this delightful take on the classic:
"Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet,
and so would be you;
but the roses are wilted
The violets are dead
The sugar is sour
And so is your head"
October 5 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I see that metaphor is likely the principle tool of the poet, I don't know that a poem requires one.
October 5 at 12:31pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Aristotle must have known of the return of Peregrino when he wrote the Poetics: "But the greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor. It is the one thing that cannot be learnt from others; and it is also a sign of genius, since a good metaphor implies an intuitive perception of the similarity in dissimilars."
October 5 at 12:32pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman Or just make a song..... Marillion - Grendel (Live): http://youtu.be/rWXkHc2rH6s
Marillion - Grendel (Live)
Live at the Hammersmith Odeon, London, April 18th 1983
YOUTUBE.COM
October 5 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Grendel's Mother, tMG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R4rWiJBROg
Grendel's Mother by The Mountain Goats
Flash cards for "Grendel's Mother" by The Mountain Goats, from Zopilote Machine (1994).
YOUTUBE.COM
October 5 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sed contra, Aquinas calls Poetry the "infima doctrina," therefore poetry is not higher than mathematics.
October 5 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Deja vu
October 5 at 2:13pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger haiku impressions
infima infimarum
poem unmetered
October 5 at 2:49pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Did you all see this?
http://apnews.myway.com/.../eu-med--womb_transplant_baby...
My Way News - Medical first: Baby born to woman who got new womb
Medical first: Baby born to woman who got new womb
APNEWS.MYWAY.COM
October 5 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger A lot of the Poetics reads tongue in cheek to me, like Bond's quote above. "It's sheer genius. He can find similarities in things that ain't nothing alike. How does he do it?" Or take Aristotle's haiku version of the Odyssey where he reduces the entire plot and action to a sentence or two.
October 5 at 3:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman GUYS! I FOUND OUR ANTHEM!
http://io9.com/listen-to-the-butt-song-from-hell-written...
Listen to the Butt Song from Hell written on a 500-year-old painting
One section of Hieronymus Bosch's massive triptych The...
IO9.COM|BY LAUREN DAVIS
October 5 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Or his definition of the middle. But Pergrine will appreciate Aristotle's use of metaphor when he calls the plot the soul of tragedy. Or when he compares the plot to the order of a living organism.
October 5 at 3:28pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I cannot believe this thing has gone on for almost two months.
October 5 at 3:25pm · Like · 7
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John Ruplinger warm up
October 5 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Sed contra.... Christ primarily uses metaphor to teach.
Since God's primary mode of teaching is via metaphor, and only breaks it down to direct teaching when the apostles are unable to grasp the teaching. Therefore metaphor is highest.
QEF (because he is the creator)
October 5 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Which goes back to earlier topics of art, the student and "why did Plato write".
The effective use of metaphor in writing is the foundation of a storyteller and teacher. The goal is to engage the student, hook them with a story that is designed to teach without browbeating facts like a tech manual.
October 5 at 3:52pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Why metaphor indeed? And in my reading I found Shakespeare, Plato, Homer and , Aristotle the best at using it, setting aside Scripture. It is more than just a hook though. It engages the mind in comparisons.
October 5 at 4:12pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Homer's extended similes are wonderful, are they not? The intuitive perception that can find what is similar in dissimilars seems akin to the faculty that grasps the universal in the particular.
October 5 at 4:34pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger I agree that it is not an art but it does seem capable of cultivation like invention in rhetoric.
October 5 at 4:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed. But it is amazing how difficult it is to get students to learn how to "unpack" a metaphor--the reverse, as it were, of creating one.
October 5 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger That is true. I was amazed at that difficulty.
October 5 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #mathgnosis (as you were)
October 5 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But without pondering a metaphor, do you know what it means. Or is it merely highsounding? Revery or understanding? Most everything in Homer may be unpacked and still be wonderful, even moreso.
October 5 at 5:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger "Imagination is the madwoman of the house." - forgotten metaphors
October 5 at 5:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Isn't the relation rather that the word rose is used in place of "a beautiful thing"? What is common to both is beauty.
October 5 at 6:13pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Regarding my quote on imagination, that I picked up in reference to the spiritual life but it applies to the wild imagination in need of taming by reason. (Some more metaphor for you.)
October 5 at 6:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Rereading the Poetics, it is riddled with riddles. He investigates, critiques, describes and is giving a deliberate instruction as well. Every time I reread it I come away with a different understanding and new questions. And its hard to tell where \ if he is jesting.
October 5 at 6:10pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "metaphor is reasonable play on the imagination." Good metaphor, yes. Bad metaphor, not so much.
October 5 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond A riddle to be unpacked, my dear Peregrino. The mind cannot resist the unpacking from whence comes the delight and the learning. Your example above, "The woman is a rose," bears more than the one hidden premise that a rose is beautiful. It also suggests, among other things, that the woman's beauty if fleeting.
October 5 at 7:09pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Aristotle's treatment of metaphor in the Poetics and the Rhetoric are fascinating. They can and are used to distort and deceive also. They are a cause of imprecision. Ambiguous. Thus to say one "begs" instead of "prays" can be an abuse of language and offense against truth by subtle distortion.
October 5 at 7:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger You must have a different version. I am still looking for metaphor as syllogism.
October 5 at 7:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "The woman is a rose" also suggests that if you handle her carelessly, she will make you bleed.
October 5 at 8:01pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger My copy is distorted or I need new glasses.
October 5 at 8:08pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger For Bond from the Rhetoric, "Metaphors must be drawn, as has been said already, from things that are related to the original thing, and yet not obviously so related - just as in philosophy also an acute mind will perceive similarities even in things far apart."
October 5 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Metaphors may just be for the hoi polloi. They express things in a new and unexpected way, but also imprecisely. We always need to be tickled or we just can't listen to the truth. Its so dull: "Liven it up."
October 5 at 8:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Can't find it. But he says this though a better translation would be nice: "We will begin by remarking that that we all naturally find it agreeable to get hold of new ideas easily: words express ideas, and therefore those words are the most agreeable that enable us to get hold of new ideas. Now strange words simply puzzle us; ordinary words convey only what we know already; it is from metaphor that we best get hold of something fresh. When a poet calls 'old age a withered stalk'' he conveys a new idea , a new fact, to us by means of the general notion of bloom, which is common to both things ."
October 5 at 9:08pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger So what "new idea" is learned in the above metaphor? Or is it merely delightful sounding. Aristotle mentions many similar examples. I am not disparaging all metaphor (poetic or rhetorical), only that it may give more a mere appearance of learning (or rather good argument since something is learned in the comparison), masking mere delight in a novelty.
October 5 at 11:24pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loawMpfpOZM
X-Men [Wolverine - "You're a d*ck!"]
X-Men (2000) Cyclops doesn't know if Logan is an imposter. *No copyright intended
YOUTUBE.COM
October 5 at 9:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I think the example from Reagan is making my point. "America is a city on the hill" is the minor premise. It is striking. (By giving a major or a conclusion, we have an enthymeme and the audience supplies the rest. But one proposition by itself cannot be an enthymeme). The strikingness draws us to assent. But at the beginning of the Rhetoric we were warned that the exactest knowledge is insufficient because an argument based on such implies that people can be instructed and some cannot be instructed. Metaphor (at least in rhetoric) is used in constructing enthymemes but they are much less clear than merely striking. I should say rather they are striking and appear therefore clear or brilliant. But it has nothing to do with the veracity of an argument.
October 5 at 11:18pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And this is the best part of rhetoric, the neglected part as Aristotle points out. It is what makes up the reasoned part, the argument. But the more effective is pathos and ethos.
October 5 at 11:19pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley The conversation is a lot less interesting when half of it is missing.
October 6 at 1:12am · Like
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Isak Benedict Blockhappy cowpokes gumming up the conversation...
October 6 at 1:16am · Like
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Isak Benedict You know he's just mouthing more idiocies, Edward. I don't miss it.
October 6 at 1:16am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, looks like they're talking about syllaphors.
October 6 at 1:17am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But 50 comments in 8 hours - what happened TNET?
October 6 at 1:17am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley San Peregrino?
October 6 at 1:17am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Everyone must have had a good weekend!
October 6 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz mayve tnet got the flu
October 6 at 1:43am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am rather surprised.
October 6 at 2:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But don't count TNET out yet!
October 6 at 2:07am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Oh it ain't over. It ain't never over.
October 6 at 2:08am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The question is, will TNET fly too close to the sun in the attempt to free itself from the labyrinth of its own father's devising? Matthew
October 6 at 2:20am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Daniel, yours was comment 30303.
October 6 at 2:21am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Some pop-Augustinianism for the Thread: http://youtu.be/zaR3sVpTB98
George Carlin on Time
George Carlin: Again! 1978
YOUTUBE.COM
October 6 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau You guys are still here?
October 6 at 2:31am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I saw this and thought of you
October 6 at 2:31am · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.technologyreview.com/.../a-qa-with-gene-wolfe/
Twelve Tomorrows Q&A with Science Fiction Author Gene Wolfe | MIT...
A Twelve Tomorrows exclusive: Science fiction legend...
TECHNOLOGYREVIEW.COM
October 6 at 2:42am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://m.wsj.com/.../humans-naturally-follow-crowd...
Humans Naturally Follow Crowd Behavior
Humans' sensitivity to crowds operates in a remarkably swift and automatic way, writes Alison Gopnik.
ONLINE.WSJ.COM|BY ALISON GOPNIK
October 6 at 2:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://kaogu.net.cn/.../Academic.../2014/0815/47198.html
Chinese Archaeology
KAOGU.NET.CN
October 6 at 2:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://mobile.nytimes.com/.../thomas-edsall-the-value-of...
The Value of Political Corruption
Changes meant to clean things up have backfired. Now, are we too cynical?
NYTIMES.COM|BY THOMAS B. EDSALL
October 6 at 2:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.academia.edu/.../Ancient_Commentators_on...
Ancient Commentators on Aristotle
In the 1st century BCE, the previously unknown lecture notes that we now know as Aristotle’s works were...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY JOHN SELLARS
October 6 at 2:43am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.newscientist.com/.../dn26109-fish-reared-on...
Fish reared on land replay the transition to four legs - life - 27 August 2014 - New...
Unusual fish with lungs have developed walking...
NEWSCIENTIST.COM
October 6 at 2:44am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.city-journal.org/.../24_3_geithner-greenspan...
Stress Fractures by Adam White, City Journal Summer 2014
On market crashes and the arrogance of financial elites
CITY-JOURNAL.ORG
October 6 at 2:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Did Pater post this?
http://culbreath.wordpress.com/.../pope-st-pius-x-a.../
Pope St. Pius X: A letter in defense of Cardinal Newman
Blessed John Henry Newman - like many nuanced and...
CULBREATH.WORDPRESS.COM
October 6 at 2:45am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://scholar.harvard.edu/.../patriot_royalism_forum.pdf
October 6 at 2:45am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.amazon.com/.../ref=redir.../186-4413562-3804350
October 6 at 2:45am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://m.democracyjournal.org/.../e3069d9f519b4b7ccf212d.../?
Arguments Blog | Democracy Journal
Epidemics, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, and rising waters. This year has had it all, but no truer sign of the End Times has yet emerged than a bizarre convergence, in the New York Times, of fastidiously goateed conservative Catholic writer Ross Douthat and hirsute Marxist philosopher Slavoj…
M.DEMOCRACYJOURNAL.ORG
October 6 at 2:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://reason.com/.../will-superintelligent-machines...
Will Superintelligent Machines Destroy Humanity?
In a thoughtful new book, a philosopher ponders the...
REASON.COM
October 6 at 2:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://m.wsj.com/.../peter-thiel-competition-is-for...
Competition Is for Losers
Americans mythologize economic competition, but it's actually the opposite of capitalism. If you want to create...
ONLINE.WSJ.COM|BY PETER THIEL
October 6 at 2:46am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hK-5XOwraQo
Graham Harman. Speculative Realism. 2013
http://www.egs.edu/Graham Harman, American philosopher, talking about speculative realism,...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 6 at 2:47am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson ^alls I got open in tabs right now on my phone
October 6 at 2:47am · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Harman made an appearance here. Oh dear.
October 6 at 3:19am · Like
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Pater Edmund https://www.facebook.com/joel.feil/posts/10152755697668536
October 6 at 5:39am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey tNET! How was your weekend?
October 6 at 8:28am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Mine was nice. Had a visitor. Went apple picking.
October 6 at 8:29am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson with the link dump...
October 6 at 8:42am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Did you have fun without me? I see that the most 06 of 06 jokes has been assimilated by tNET into #gnosis.
October 6 at 9:09am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Gene Wolfe is the man, and should be more appreciated.
October 6 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Again, the poem below is not technically a haiku, but Langston Hughes seems to have been inspired by that tradition:
Suicide's Note
The calm,
Cool face of the river
Asked me for a kiss.
October 6 at 9:27am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Peregrino: fake
but he stills blocks his betters
he can kiss my ass
October 6 at 11:13am · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ^haiku^
October 6 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Matt Badley Haiku’s are easy
But sometimes they don’t make sense
Refrigerator
October 6 at 10:43am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Watch out, Michael Beitia, the haiku technocrats will note that your second line is lacking a seventh syllable. May I suggest the following: "but still he blocks his betters." ( I couldn't resist the alliteration, and I assume you would appreciate the added "dig".) As for your last line, I must congratulate you on finding five one-syllable words to link in succession. Very forceful and most impressive.
October 6 at 10:46am · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond I forgot to mention how much I like the trochaic meter of the last line!
October 6 at 10:50am · Like · 3
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John Ashman #haikugnosis
October 6 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Doctor, what's your #diagnosis on my #thrombgnosis ?
October 6 at 11:01am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, I edited the second line to have seven, yes, originally it had 8, but I fixed it
October 6 at 11:03am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think your first unedited version had seven, but what appears now has only six.
October 6 at 11:05am · Like
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John Ashman I have rhythm, which is why I can't do two things: The 2-step. And Haiku.
October 6 at 11:08am · Like
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Joel HF Counting is quite hard.
This explains why I refrain
From writing Haikus.
October 6 at 11:09am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I consider people to have 2 syllables.
October 6 at 11:12am · Like
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Joel HF But (1) he (2) still (3) blocks (4) people (5, 6). I think Dr. Spaceman has you here.
October 6 at 11:12am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Me, too.
October 6 at 11:13am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond "Me, too," meaning that I consider people to have 2 syllables.
October 6 at 11:13am · Like · 2
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John Ashman We'd better call in Count Dracula on this.
October 6 at 11:14am · Like
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Michael Beitia okay, I can't count. I edited to reflect your sage emendation.
October 6 at 11:14am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Beautiful!
October 6 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Beitiaful.
See Translation
October 6 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Be beyond number.
Transcend the straight and curved.
Do not count, just be.
October 6 at 11:15am · Like · 4
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John Ashman Be the haiku, Danny.
October 6 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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John Ashman tNET padding ^^^^
October 6 at 11:17am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, where did we end up on the Bolin Epistemology? It's too far back for me to see for myself.
October 6 at 11:18am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Certitude is mine.
Thus sayeth Bolin the wise.
All else is darkness.
October 6 at 11:20am · Like · 4
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Joel HF I think it was more or less roundly rejected, ultimately. And those on the other side were accused of saying "I know because I know" (or something like that, I may have misstated that slightly).
October 6 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Joel HF So the discussion closed with each side being more sure that the other side was wrong.
October 6 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Did the non-Bolinists ever come up with an answer to his question about the question of mistaken beliefs and how we know whether our beliefs come from faith or not?
October 6 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Because, upon reflection, that was a non-terrible question
October 6 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Joel HF @Kenz had a distinction b/w experiential certainty and something or another, that was the start of (possibly) an explanation.
October 6 at 11:33am · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe although I do think the Bolin position reduced to absurdity.
October 6 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Here's the problem, how we know and how we have certainty--it seems to me--are some of the hardest questions of metaphysics. Philosophies that try to found themselves on these questions are inevitably problematic. It's easy to say "well, you claim that you know things, but can you answer THIS difficulty...you can't?...well then, you must not know anything!" That doesn't make that line of reasoning any less sophistical.
October 6 at 11:32am · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe the Bolin position reduced to heresy, rather than absurdity
October 6 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I see how you could hold his position, but I don't see how you could hold his position, and think that the proposition "faith is certain" has any real meaning.
October 6 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Joel HF He seemed to hold a version of it for natural knowledge as well.
October 6 at 11:37am · Like
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John Ruplinger A defense of the Falcon:
Metaphor girds up
the loins of the enthymeme
whose pants else fall down.
October 6 at 11:39am · Edited · Like · 7
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Jeffrey Bond Spaceman knowest naught.
He adjusts his powdered wig.
All is well below.
October 6 at 11:43am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger [Peregrine is right to say that Aristotle points out that metaphor is at the heart of an effective (and at times good) enthymeme, often. He just mistakes metaphor for enthymeme (and syllogism)]
October 6 at 11:46am · Edited · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I think that part of what Bolin was saying was true, but that he neglected some distinctions. It is certainly true that one can be mistaken about what the faith contains in particular instances. He's right that one's own understanding of an infallible teaching is not itself infallible.
October 6 at 11:50am · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund But on the other hand as some of the anti-Bolinists were saying there is something liked the confused-but-certain vs. distinct-but-less-certain distinction in faith as well as in natural knowing.
October 6 at 11:55am · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe That seems about right
October 6 at 11:58am · Like
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Joel HF No-one denied the possiblity of (a) being mistaken, or (b) that we ourselves are not infallible.
October 6 at 11:59am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe But you'd better be able to have certainty about *some* things the Church teaches, or the whole shebang goes up in smoke
October 6 at 12:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Kenz distinguished implicit and explicit faith. We are certain in the general propositions but become less so as we make more distinctions and refine definitions. Our knowledge is incomplete or imperfect by our nature. It is not so much uncertain as incomplete. Add easily corrected general errors. But from these innate deficiencies we do not arrive at hopeless incertitude.
October 6 at 12:13pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Joel HF ^that sounds about right.
October 6 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Pound's "In A Station of the Metro" and Hughes' "Suicide's Note" would both absolutely be considered haiku, even technically. They both conform to the haiku essentials.
It is interesting that the two characteristics almost inevitably mentioned first by strangers to the haiku are 1) having three lines and 2) conforming to a 5-7-5 syllable count. As a matter of fact these are the two most arbitrary and least essential traits of the haiku in English.
October 6 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Seemed to me Bolinism was more of a epistemic problem relating to certainty & 2nd order knowledge (knowing about knowing etc) than one with faith specifically, but I only popped in to point out what seemed like glaring inconsistencies and then I was on my merry way
October 6 at 12:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The true haiku's essence is in the mere juxtaposition of two images, usually separating by a "kiju," or cutting word. It must also avoid, as much as possible, the use of other poetic techniques such as metaphor or rhyme. The haiku is a represented instant, an attempt to capture something eternal in a moment. I believe it was Basho who described the ideal writing of the haiku as "slicing a melon."
October 6 at 12:12pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia Isak writes poesy
and photoshops an assbag
autumnal jollies
October 6 at 12:16pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond That certainly slices the melon.
October 6 at 12:14pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict If you really want to be as authentic as possible, the haiku must also include a seasonal reference - something, some brief image that sets it during a certain time of year.
October 6 at 12:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So although Michael's haiku is certainly evocative of image, he needs a time of year reference - might I suggest the last line be "laughter in the fall" or something comparable?
October 6 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Also, I think certitude has less to do with knowing that we know (a perilous way of putting it) and more to do with seeing things as they really are
October 6 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Better?
October 6 at 12:16pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Adrw Lng, that was my difficulty from the get go as well. Because of the regress that comes from "knowing that we know"
October 6 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger But Pound used metaphor. So at least I justify my last haiku. We don't want to see a naked enthymeme.
October 6 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng As for the certainty of faith, per Heb 11:1 its foundation is something more divine, vita aeterna in nobis (STh II-II 4.1)
October 6 at 12:21pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng On that basis, the "firmness of adherence" of faith is evidently stronger than what we could obtain from human understanding.
October 6 at 12:28pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng It's important to remember that "firmness of adherence" is a type of certitude distinct (although not opposed) from certitude of the understanding of evidence. This also allows us to see faith as a kind of belief.
October 6 at 12:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, it seemed like the argument was that since we can think we are certainly right and be mistaken about that fact than even human knowledge is just more or less probable. Now, I hold that human knowledge can be certain at least of some things, and I hold that faith is stronger than reason, as you said above.
October 6 at 12:33pm · Like
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Joel HF I wish for the umpteenth time that this thread were searchable.
October 6 at 12:34pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng So much scrolling LOL
October 6 at 12:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe apples picked, pies made
aroma of fall consoled
for lack of tNET
October 6 at 12:37pm · Like · 8
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Samantha Cohoe is picked one syllable?
October 6 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think it is.
October 6 at 12:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe the way I say it, anyway
October 6 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF That's the most haiku-like of all the haikus thus far
October 6 at 12:38pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks, Joel HF! I was trying to follow Isak's instructions
October 6 at 12:38pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Hence faith is an infused habit which allows us to assent to propositions of faith in light of the faith. By the same token, faith has the power to restrain the believer from propositions contrary to the faith.
October 6 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe such as polygenism!
October 6 at 12:39pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng And many other p-isms hither and yon (it's tNet so I can tease, Samantha?? )
October 6 at 12:43pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple Nice day teases me.
Like a mean, dirty strumpet;
Fall-time in Houston.
October 6 at 12:43pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Polygenism was argued for in the south in the 19th century, btw. Anyone able to guess why?
October 6 at 12:47pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia stars come out in fall
I see orion in daily
supernova hope
October 6 at 12:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel ooh pick me! pick me!
Black people are inferior!
October 6 at 12:48pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Pretty much, if you could even call them "people." Also, the added benefit of saying that Christ probably didn't even redeem them.
October 6 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's the problem with polygenesis, one man for sin one man for redemption. Do I understand how this works? no. but it has to be
October 6 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw-- if anything, that teasing was much too gentle for tNET
October 6 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Michael Beitia-- I agree, yet I will say that I think discussion is allowed w/r/t polygenesis (for Catholics). And there are oddities about Genesis that lead even some during patristic times to theorize about pre-adamites (how are they founding a city so soon? Who are these giants? etc. etc.). Plus, there is a bit of a mystery about "archaic humans"--i.e. we know that there were genetic humans for a long, long period of time prior to the evidence for human activity and culture.
October 6 at 12:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just as evolutionary biology eventually ends up in history with no historian, an examination of Genesis, with whatever rampant hypothesis devolves into speculation. Imma stick with St. Paul on this one.
October 6 at 12:55pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante my heart is filled with love for you right now Beitia
October 6 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF Agreed Michael Beitia
October 6 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel is correct about the existence of the oddities however
October 6 at 1:04pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia oh, I'm pretty up on my pop science (more physics and cosmology than biology I will admit)
Not saying I understand how sin comes into the world through one man, or how Cain could be building a city, but the monogenesis of man w/r/t original sin must be maintained.
October 6 at 1:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John - actually Pound did not use a metaphor there, not explicitly. Look again. It's magnificent how he managed, by the mere juxtaposition of two images, to make the reader (possibly - not necessarily) take it as a metaphor!
October 6 at 1:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- say more about the kiju, or perhaps give an example
October 6 at 1:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante btw people let me plug my man Hegel here, who makes the same point re: evo bio in his Philosophy of Nature that Beitia does here: if no historian, then no "history". This is a very basic point of reason, not revelation
October 6 at 1:09pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Samantha - that haiku's not bad at all
October 6 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yay! Your description was highly educational.
October 6 at 1:09pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Samantha the best part of The Neverending Thread's weekend (though I say it myself) was the following quote from a youtube commentator on why Beowulf should have been a haiku:
«Like I said before, this a DUMB ass OLD ass story bout how a niqqa finna get his ass TAPPED by a damn primordial monster nd shit. They made this poem thick as hell when it really could just be a HAIKU. That shit stupid, why they make this boring ass shit LONG as hell?? Talm bout mfs eating in a damn hall nd shit. Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who don’t got no where to go. Then all the sudden a angry ass Demon come thru and beat the F_CK out everyone»
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsxxg5P-DnY...
Beowulf - Seamus Heaney: Part 2 of 2
Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney's new translation of Beowulf comes to life in this gripping audio. Heaney's...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 6 at 1:10pm · Like · 7
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Jehoshaphat Escalante also: in the Bible, "city" has almost nothing to do with scale. It just means temple+settlement
October 6 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Pater wins tNET for the day
October 6 at 1:11pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Samantha - Sure! I will use mine, since they are amateur and thus the signs of the craft are easy to see:
"stream water polished
stone in the palm of my hand -
white scent of jasmine"
I like to indicate the cutting word, which comes almost always at the end of the first or second line, with a dash.
"my brother and I
plant tomatoes in clay pots -
sorry I hurt you"
This one I am proud of because it takes a little thinking:
"fireflies and cut grass
mom leaves the window open -
this jar is neither empty"
October 6 at 1:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Will I be unceremoniously ejected from tNET if I say the anonymous commenter has a point?
October 6 at 1:12pm · Like
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John Ruplinger haiaphor = haiku with pants
October 6 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I think of the haiku as an attempt to express the inexpressible. It's almost trying to use words impossibly. Every haiku ultimately fails to do what it wants to do, and that is make the reader feel EXACTLY what the writer felt in some fleeting instant.
October 6 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF On an unrelated note, is philosophical anthropology (as used today) just a subspecies of phenomenology?
October 6 at 1:13pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^excellent question, and the answer is yes, but Kantian not Hegelian
October 6 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF That was my impression, but I share the common TACer vice of having read precious little 20th century German philosophy.
October 6 at 1:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict As you can see I like to refer to the time of year obliquely. Rather than say "summer," use the image of fireflies, for example.
October 6 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- still thinking about your last one...
October 6 at 1:16pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante quick explanation: for Hegel, human self-possession of spirit is possible through history. For Kant, human spirit is incapable of that mediately absolute relation to itself, and must always remain something only indirectly grasped, and not through history, rather, through critical phenomenology.
October 6 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Samantha - what does a little boy do with the fireflies he catches?
October 6 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Tolkien on Beowulf, if anyone's interested. The guts of this essay are pretty much on page 105 beginning with the tower metaphor:
http://producer.csi.edu/.../Tolkien%20-%20The%20Monsters...
October 6 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and Kant rules the roost even yet, so philosophical anthropology is generally Kantian. Scheler, Ortega, and Marias are sort of exceptions
October 6 at 1:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ohhh. is there cut grass in the jar, too?
October 6 at 1:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Isak, spread the glowing part on the end of a stick to make a "torch"?
October 6 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The thread at the moment is a taking the form of an extended haiku, with juxtaposed conversations about haiku and philosophical anthropology.
October 6 at 1:18pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I can see your presentation at the tNET 100,000 conference now: "Thread as Haiku: Anthropological Poetry"
October 6 at 1:19pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Haha, maybe you guys did different things with fireflies than I did. I put caught fireflies in a jar with holes in the lid and set the jar in my room in the dark.
October 6 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Joel, that's brilliant. Doing it.
October 6 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe maybe to avoid the direct reference to fall, I could change my second line from "aroma of fall etc" to "scent of cinnamon consoled"
October 6 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Haiku is fun.
October 6 at 1:21pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Haiku is pointless
October 6 at 1:21pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Haiku is SO much fun. It is also a little bit addicting once you know how they work.
October 6 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I still think doggerel is the highest form of art
October 6 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Edward, why do you say that?
October 6 at 1:21pm · Like
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Joel HF Shakesperean Haiku (as recited by Bertie Wooster):
Hey Nonny Nonny,
Hey Nonny Nonny Nonny
Hey Nonny Nonny.
October 6 at 1:22pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I think the haiku is the epitome of the non-poem.
October 6 at 1:22pm · Like
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Adrw Lng tNet: That shit stupid, why they make this boring ass shit LONG as hell?? Sound like a bunch of HOMELESS ass mfs who don’t got no where to go.
October 6 at 1:22pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Edward, did you read all the stuff Isak said about haiku?
October 6 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Your defense of such a statement, Edward?
October 6 at 1:23pm · Like
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante--is there a short version of what "spirit" means for Hegel and Kant above? Or am I making it more complicated than it need be?
October 6 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, I did, don't buy it.
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Michael Beitia #Edwardgnosis
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Isak Benedict If he did, he clearly did not agree.
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Isak Benedict #nonpoemgnosis
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Samantha Cohoe I'm sorry? Am I your defense for your statement? What?
October 6 at 1:23pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel Kant and Hegel don't mean the same thing by it
October 6 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I didn't think so, but I thought you were implying that there was some underlying unity.
October 6 at 1:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia not complicated enough Joel
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Edward Langley Isak Benedict, I'd have to think about it, I just never have taken Haikus (at least in English, don't know Japanese) to be serious.
October 6 at 1:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, hit enter too early, meant to say "Samantha Cohoe, I did, don't buy it"
October 6 at 1:25pm · Like
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Joel HF I should note that to the degree I remember any philosophy, it isn't Hegel. I vaguely remember Senior year that I was able to sophistically justify everything under the sun as the "negation of the negation" but that's about it.
October 6 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Also, Joel totally read the relevant Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entries before our Hegel seminars
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Joel HF I never! Did I?
October 6 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante good for him. that no secondary sources thing is bullshit
October 6 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante one of TAC's inanest inanities
October 6 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Part of the problem
with the Haiku is that, they're
either nonsense with-
out any real grammat-
ical structure or else they
just look like prose in
which someone has
randomly hitten the
Enter key
October 6 at 1:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche,
Giants of the modern age.
Wind now stirs in Rome.
October 6 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Arguing against a position Joel HF can't find in the text but is nevertheless certain is the correct way to read Hegel is bullshit. Or, frustrating, anyway
October 6 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante--it's an overreaction against the over-reliance on banal textbooks that one finds elsewhere.
October 6 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I know the rationale
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Adrw Lng C'mon Hegel isn't that hard!
October 6 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Ah, but Roy agreed with me! And besides, I'll defend my gnostic reading of Hegel to the death. #hegelgnosis
October 6 at 1:28pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it's also an excuse to totally decontextualize texts and be lazy
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Joel HF ^We don't read the hard parts.
October 6 at 1:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Roy agreed with everyone!! Whether or not he actually agreed with them!
October 6 at 1:29pm · Like
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Joel HF Very true--it is good that we engage in primary texts at TAC, but it is also a serious, serious weakness.
October 6 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the Phenomenology was hard. You're lying if you didn't think it was hard at the time.
October 6 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the History stuff wasn't hard
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Daniel Lendman Just mobilize Kant
The subject and object, one.
Hegel is master.
October 6 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe, Adrw Lng was born with a natural Hegelian tendency.
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Joel HF Hegel practically demands #Gnostic interpretations. I think the most frustrated I ever saw Decaen was our Husserl seminars. Our section didn't want to get it--or at least I didn't. Then finally Decaen just explained it, and everyone (or maybe just me again) was like oooohhh!
October 6 at 1:31pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I was like, ooooohhh! -- but where is that in the text?
October 6 at 1:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Those Husserl readings are tough.
October 6 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe we didn't know how to read phenomenology at all.
October 6 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante no one ever defines "gnostic"
October 6 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF It doesn't admit of definition. #gnosisgnosis
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the Phenomenology is a tragicomedy
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Joel HF #selfreferentialgnosis
October 6 at 1:32pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Now I am the Lord
"Only master of evil"
Now I am the Slave
October 6 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia my thesis was on Hegel...... oof
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Pater Edmund The head Eurocrat does Haiku: http://www.hermanvanrompuy.be/.../at-the-japan-summit.html
Haiku: At the Japan Summit
Haiku poem at the end of my preliminary remarks following the EU-Japan Summit.
HERMANVANROMPUY.BE
October 6 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng If I was a pagan, I'd probably be Hegelian
October 6 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If you were a pagan, I would convert you.
October 6 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman #swordoffaithgnosis
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Daniel Lendman #Bigangrygnosis
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Adrw Lng #hermaphroditeduckuncertainty
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Adrw Lng Sorry, just had to use that # again
October 6 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Secondary sources
Haystacks of trash, occasional
needle of truth therein.
October 6 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman #hermaphroditeduckuncertaintygnosis is always welcome, Adrw Lng.
October 6 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Journals are the worst.
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Daniel Lendman I need to publish in one, or several.
October 6 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Edward Langley
Strict observance Thomist
Occasional troll
October 6 at 1:39pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Joel HF Further proof that Roy and I didn't actually use SEoP--afterwards while chatting with Mr. Wodzinski, he corrected us about the terminology we invented in class as not being proper to Hegel himself, but to later followers of his.
October 6 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Roy had all that #LutheranbackgroundtoHegelgnosis
October 6 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Roy also had, #whythehellisthisguynotCatholicgnosis
October 6 at 1:41pm · Like
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Pater Edmund But here is Heinrich Heine being very threadish, and talking about Hegel, the interpretation of Genesis and all the rest of it:
«Besides this one, there are indeed many other beautiful and noteworthy narratives in the Bible which would be worthy their attention, as, for example, just at the beginning, there is the story of the forbidden tree in Paradise and of the serpent, that little private tutoress who lectured on Hegelian philosophy six thou- sand years before Hegel's birth. This blue-stocking without feet demonstrated very ingeniously how the absolute consists in the identity of being and knowing, how man becomes God through cognition, or, what is the same thing, how the God in man thereby attains self- consciousness. This formula is not so clear as the original words: When ye eat of the tree of knowledge ye shall be as God! Mother Eve understood only one thing in the whole demonstration, that the fruit was forbidden, and because it was forbidden, the good woman ate of it. But she had scarcely eaten the enticing apple when she lost her innocence, her naive ingenuousness, and discovered that she was much too naked for a person of her position, the ancestress of so many future emperors and kings, and she desired a dress.»
October 6 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe must've read some out of date encyclopedia, then.
October 6 at 1:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia uncertainty ducks
pond swimming hermaphrodites
true tNET gnosis
October 6 at 1:42pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I remain bitter.
October 6 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Why are you bitter, Samantha?
October 6 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because Joel ruined one of our Hegel seminars by reading outside texts.
October 6 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I allege, anyway
October 6 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I see.
October 6 at 1:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I read Hegel as a Kantian. That was hard.
October 6 at 1:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe possibly also because I had no idea what the text referred to, and Joel HF did but only because he cheated
October 6 at 1:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or so I maintain
October 6 at 1:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Ruined seminar? Hah! First of all, that seminar didn't need me for it to be ruined. Second of all, Roy understood what I was talking about. Third of all, perhaps.
October 6 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Roy understood what *he* was talking about, and you both misunderstood each other to be talking about the same thing!
October 6 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia like evolutionary biology, tNET turns to history...
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF In that case, we were only being good Hegelians!
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe But, if you hadn't cheated, seminar probably would have been like this: "So...does this mean this?" "Maybe?" "Huh."
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like
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Edward Langley Trivia Tangent: some of the Germans become more intelligible if you only read the first sentence or two of every paragraph.
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley #straussiangnosis
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "What about this?" "Maybe?" "Yeah, could be."
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley #becausesometimeslessismoregnosis
October 6 at 1:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman TNET is certainly a manifestation of worldspirit.
October 6 at 1:46pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley One of the tutors said they were taking the class on a Germanic kook, and they were just feeling lost in class. So, one day they only read the first sentence of each paragraph (and maybe the last) and, that class was the first one they understood. #anecdatagnosis
October 6 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scheler/#phiantmet
Max Scheler (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
At the time of his death, Max Ferdinand Scheler was one...
PLATO.STANFORD.EDU
October 6 at 1:48pm · Like
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Joel HF Reading the SEoP on Max Scheler only strengthens my resolve to never read Max Scheler.
October 6 at 1:50pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, not never, but only once I've read everything else first.
October 6 at 1:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman BTW Edward Langley. When are you going to run stats again?
October 6 at 1:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe this class prep might go faster with less tNET...
October 6 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia don't diss on Scheler
October 6 at 1:55pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Scheler is very much worth reading
October 6 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe you continental philosophers be trippin
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Joel HF From SEoP: "Living beings relate to their environment and to other living beings erotically, through a type of cosmic love disclosed most emphatically in the person of St. Francis of Assisi." I'll pass.
October 6 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'd pass too if that's all I had to go on. But read the whole SEoP entry. You'll find much of great interest
October 6 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Alright, I'll read the whole SEoP entry--maybe after work. But my patience for that sort of thing has diminished with each child.
October 6 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley If I ever had the urge to read continental philosophy, I'd just read me some Bonaventure.
October 6 at 2:01pm · Like
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Joel HF As in, the more kids I'm putting to bed, or helping put to bed, the less I'm interested in vague longwinded Germans.
October 6 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante he does have huge problems; but he's very interesting. Much easier to read JP II if you know Scheler
October 6 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia read the longwinded Germans to the kids, it makes the sleepy time faster #puttingtobedgnosis
October 6 at 2:01pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Hey kids, get ready for your bedtime reading on "Lordship and Bondage"
October 6 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Jehoshaphat Escalante, I agree about secondary sources, especially with Kant and Hegel.
I spent an inordinate amount of time on both (even made my own Kant glossary...taking any word I wasn't sure of, and searching ahead to where he may define it or a place that gave a clear meaning)
Problem is, most of the tutors did not understand them a wit, and being in seminar even if they did, many would leave us out to dry. We didn't spend the kind of time we did on Aristotle, yet there was at least as steep a learning curve (if not more, because by then we were used to Aristotelian jargon).
Heck just reading the translator's intro was immensely helpful for Kant.
I sometimes wonder if it is better not to do them at all then to do them as poorly as we do. But, then again, at least the question "why do we read them" can engender some healthy thought on the matter (can not always does)
October 6 at 2:02pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia as soon as you get to "Veritas est aedequatio intellectus ad rem" on Heidegger's The Essence of Truth, they eyes are shut
October 6 at 2:03pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's a good point Joshua. Aristotle is, for the most part, straightforward. But I spent junior year going through it sentence by sentence.
October 6 at 2:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--I did get the impression that some tutors thought that they didn't need to read secondary sources or whatever else was necessary to ensure that they actually understood Kant, Hegel, etc. And that's a real shame.
October 6 at 2:04pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia as opposed to Kant in seminar, where the first year tutor looked completely lost as four of us had our own private discussion for 45 minutes
October 6 at 2:05pm · Like
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Joel HF Kant I felt like was understandable just by the texts we read--difficult certainly--but one could at least make a good beginning.
October 6 at 2:06pm · Unlike · 3
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Adrw Lng On a random note, I've been reading The Shadow of the Torturer, and it doesn't seem better than most throwaway fantasy. Anyone here familiar with the Book of the New Sun series?
October 6 at 2:06pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Perhaps, if we read him as we did Aristotle...a page a day?
October 6 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I love it. I think there is a lot going on that isn't clear at first glance.
October 6 at 2:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I benefited greatly from our reading of Kant.
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Daniel Lendman There is no need to spend more time on Kant than we do at TAC.
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Daniel Lendman We are only making a beginning.
October 6 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--that's the problem with some of the modern guys we read. It'd be better to just have a lecture so that we could go faster b/c the great books method breaks down if one is trying to rush through a lot of material.
October 6 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--I think TAC gives Kant his due. It's senior seminar where we start rushing through stuff without the time to digest it via seminar method.
October 6 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Well, it is clear that tNET is hegelian and not Thomistic. Maybe we got more out of Hegel than everyone gives themselves credit.
#secretHegeltNETgnosis
October 6 at 2:09pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Michael, I was flipping by this thread, and thought your quote said "veritas est aquaeductio intellectus..." #vitruviusgnosis
October 6 at 2:09pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Now, I know all tutors are not created equal, and with regard to Seminar I got some of the best (Kolbek, Coughlin, Kelly, Baer, Nieto), but do we really need to be experts in all of the moderns. Passing familiarity is more than adequate, to my mind.
October 6 at 2:09pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Perhaps, Joel HF. But you didn't, perhaps, have an extremely confused tutor with a very confused class
October 6 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Kant was doable, especially given the comparatively long time we spent on him. Phenomenology of the Spirit? Nope.
October 6 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But, then, I had Kolbeck for Kant, who totally knew what was up, and of course the best Junior seminar section in the history of Junior seminar.
October 6 at 2:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Kolbeck FTW.
October 6 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--that's what one or two lectures would give. Passing familiarity.
October 6 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I thought that I read Kant well, but for the length of the reading I spent a lot more time than normal for seminar.
October 6 at 2:11pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--how did you get 5 seminar tutors in 4 years?
October 6 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I had two freshman year.
October 6 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland There was a reshuffle, no?
October 6 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There were schedule changes because that is the year McArthur had to get heart surgery.
October 6 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I had two sophomore year, come to think of it. Worst. Seminar. Ever!
October 6 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But, we had a helluva section, Joel!
October 6 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Pater Edmund was in that seminar. Who else?
October 6 at 2:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Which one are you talking about, Joel HF?
October 6 at 2:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...I suppose someone will make a "Stockholm syndrome" comment soon, as we are all about to grow nostalgic for our TAC days.
October 6 at 2:14pm · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF Yeah, that was the best section. I remember (I guess I had a bad reputation? But that seems impossible!) that you came up to me before classes started, Daniel Lendman, and said something like "Well, it looks like we have a lot of personality in section this year between the two of us!" But then it wound up being awesome.
October 6 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Pater was in my sophomore seminar, which was notoriously terrible.
October 6 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman “What shall I do now? What shall I do?
I shall rush out as I am, and walk the street
With my hair down, so. What shall we do to-morrow?
What shall we ever do?”
The hot water at ten.
And if it rains, a closed car at four.
And we shall play a game of chess,
Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.
October 6 at 2:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman #TSEliotgnosis
October 6 at 2:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Being is one and immobile.
October 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz When was Heidegger removed from the program?
October 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know.
October 6 at 2:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A shame, really.
October 6 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Prior to 06.
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Daniel Lendman I would throw out Flaubert and Melville and and a couple of Heidegger seminars myself.
October 6 at 2:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I liked, Melville, by the way.
October 6 at 2:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I agree. I think we could have made more room in senior seminar by cutting out the Vatican II readings (I am serious) as well as Melville
October 6 at 2:18pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well we agree on one candidate to get cast out at least
October 6 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Maybe move Church documents to Theology.
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Flaubert adds very little. On this we can agree.
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Surely.
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Joel HF Melville and Flaubert and Ibsen, cut all three!
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Joel HF And less time on Tocqueville
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like Ibsen.
October 6 at 2:19pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well....Flaubert is awesome, but we do him badly...or my seminar did
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Keep Ibsen
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think he adds a lot, actually.
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It also rounds out the plays nicely.
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We didn't read Ibsen (the Dollhouse is the first reading cut in years with less seminars)
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF The Doll House is bad as "art for art's sake" and is just 2nd rate crummy feminism in terms of politics and ideas
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A Doll's House is one of the few opportunities that men at TAC have to realize how asinine their expectations about marriage are.
October 6 at 2:20pm · Like
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Joel HF and TAC does not need second rate crummy feminism to be dissmissive f.o
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't think it was second-rate feminism. I found it very thought provoking.
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Joel HF ^But they don't, b/c Ibsen wrote crappy propoganda!
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think it's brilliant!
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And we're not going to be reading the Second Sex or anything
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The first time I read Doll's House, I thought as you, Joel.
October 6 at 2:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe replace Ibsen with Feminine Mystique?
October 6 at 2:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But then I realized that the characters were very, very real; as was the problem.
October 6 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I feel very indebted to Tocqueville
October 6 at 2:22pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Tocqueville is awesome! Not cutting him !
Obviously the school judges Ibsen to be the most expendable, seeing how in years with a deficit of seminars he is cut.
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Never read him, cannot judge for myself
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, if we did move Church docs. to theology, that would free up some serious space for Heidegger.
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe and those years, in the entire curriculum, *nothing* even touches lightly on feminism.
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Not cutting Tocqueville, just cutting back on him.
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF We spend like three weeks, right?
October 6 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well maybe....
October 6 at 2:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's kind of an important movement for understanding our world, founders
October 6 at 2:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We should also probably read "Black Like Me" or something, too.
October 6 at 2:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe probably
October 6 at 2:24pm · Like
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Joel HF I'll note that even mainstream philosophy seems to struggle with the whole feminism thing. At least, that's been my take as a total outsider.
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But only after cutting Melville, Flaubert, and the Vatican II documents should we cut down on Tocqueville
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I a staying out of the Ibsen thing...
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And we add Heidegger.
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Joel, you were in my sophomore seminar? I had completely forgotten that. It was pretty terrible, though it got better after the tutor-change. Do you remember the later Peter Doran reading a novel during the Lucretius seminar?
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And Scott Hahn!
October 6 at 2:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Heretic^
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng As culturally significant as feminism is, I don't think it has produced a great book.
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante thank you Joshua
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I think someone blocked me.
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe not holding my breath for Scott Hahn writing a great book
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante exactly
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, he is not a heretic. He just holds some heterodox view points.
October 6 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe depends what you mean by "great"
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Agreed, I was calling you a heretic for recommending him
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I mentioned Hahn expressly for your benefit, Joshua Kenz.
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--That sounds familiar. Half the class was silent. A third were out on "smoke breaks" that took an hour or more. Terrible.
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is fair.
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, you should do a takedown of Hahn on your blog.
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz And that tongue in cheek
October 6 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante that guy Hahn is such a clown but he sure has cashed in on his clown act
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I kind of wished Being and Nothingness was in the curriculum for the same reason Samantha wants feminism in the curriculum. But end of the day, adding some Heidegger or Wittgenstein would be more important
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have actually learned some things from Hahn recently.
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like
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Joel HF Why is he so terrible? I'm only tangentially aware of him...
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund and Adrw Lng-- our Junior seminar was the best ever, right?
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Jehoshaphat Escalante, what is your beef with Hahn?
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like
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Adrw Lng It was-- no joke.
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Yeah.
October 6 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We had too many people in our Junior Seminar.
October 6 at 2:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's a great book written by St. Teresa of Avilla, a Doctor of the Church:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/.../1515-1582...
October 6 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And Catherine Ryland, you were in it too, yeah?
October 6 at 2:29pm · Like
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Pater Edmund When did you mention feminism Samantha? I thought someone who blocked me had brought it up because all of the sudden there were a bunch of responses, but now Adrw says it was you and I can't find it.
October 6 at 2:30pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante my beef with Hahn is, a) his narcissistic look-at-me conversion narrative, b) his intellectual amaterurishness, c) his recycle of Protestant biblical theology as if it were goods produced in the Catholic shop
October 6 at 2:30pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- we were talking about Ibsen.
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Think of it this way--if you ever convert, you've a blueprint to use to cash in.
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I said it's the only work in the curriculum that touches on feminism even lightly
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Have you read any of Hahn's serious academic work? Or just his popular stuff, Jehoshaphat?
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF said, yeah, but it's second rate.
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel, I went the other direction and haven't cashed in on that template and never will
October 6 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I still like Ibsen.
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like
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Joel HF ^In reverse order @Samantha.
October 6 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I said, maybe, but it's thought provoking and feminism is important to talk about, at least one time
October 6 at 2:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Hahn is probably a nice enough guy and sincere Catholic...he just plagiarizes from de Lubac on the Mass (4th cup) and presents something very problematic as standard Catholic teaching there, and he thinks the serpent was a dragon and Adam fell by refusing to lay down his life for Even in combat...did I mention he reads scripture somewhat funny?
But in all seriousness, I don't doubt the sincerity of his faith, or his loyalty to the Church. His major error is one of presenting his views, often peculiar, as the Church's views. He does this, e.g., in some children catechisms. One can fault readers for giving him too much authority, but he doesn't help the matter.
October 6 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I know, Jehoshaphat Escalante--I was just kidding.
October 6 at 2:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Then, I said, maybe we should read the Feminine Mystique? The Second Sex? But then I laughed quietly to myself because that would never, ever happen.
October 6 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Hahn is awsome. I'm using A Father who Keeps His Promises for my 5th graders.
October 6 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund When was this, Samantha?
October 6 at 2:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante btw folks Hahn's "peculiar views" seem to me largely derivative from an obscure semi-Reformed exegete named James B Jordan
October 6 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Very recently. try re-loading.
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Escalante you went the other way?!
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have benefited from his "covenental" reading of Scripture. Joshua. I think he pushes it too far at times, and I also don't think he has enough respect for the Fathers, but his serious academic work is decent.
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--this error of presenting one's peculiar views as simply "the Catholic view" is endemic to modern catholicism. See also Christopher West.
October 6 at 2:34pm · Unlike · 6
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rome to Geneva
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe see also, "Thomists"
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe haha, I kid, I kid
October 6 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yeah, lots of bad Thomists out there.
October 6 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman A one, Dr. Fedoryka, came to the ITI recently to do a metaphysical takedown of Christopher West. It was a disaster.
October 6 at 2:35pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Oh my gosh. I thought you were a cradle Calvinist. I'm devastated.
October 6 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng My impression talking to people who know the Hahns personally is that Scott is a very zelous man who doesn't take his esoteric interpretations as speaking for the church to an extreme that DeLubac and more "serious" scholars would. But that is certainly a charitable understanding.
October 6 at 2:36pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF The eternal return! But yeah, I remain amazed that one could mess up a metaphysical takedown of West.
October 6 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well, I wasn't a cradle Catholic either, so I hope that diminishes the devastation!
October 6 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman De Lubac isn't so bad.
October 6 at 2:37pm · Like
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Pater Edmund You never cease finding ways to shock me, sir.
October 6 at 2:37pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund So what were you at TAC?
October 6 at 2:37pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Were you there, Joel HF when we had the "wolf in sheep's clothing" as one of the older tutors called him, who was arguing or polygenism and denying both that the soul was created by God and that the first man was created by God? And advanced some evolution of souls....And presented this as Thomism....and why can't I remember the tutor's name...awesome guy...never had him but often ate with him....arghhh...
October 6 at 2:38pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Catholic, of the more traditionalist but idiosyncratic persuasion
October 6 at 2:38pm · Like
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--was this a portly fellow with white hair? Pater Edmund and I argued vehemently with this one guy for hours afterwards--he was giving an account of evolution and Aristotle. I wonder if I'd still find it faulty now.
October 6 at 2:39pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Wow. I'm just amazed.
October 6 at 2:39pm · Like
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Joel HF Is there an online list of lecturers (and lecture title) by year?
October 6 at 2:40pm · Like
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Joel HF Who me? Matthew J. Peterson
October 6 at 2:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes....he had white hair and I would call him portly....
October 6 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Can anyone tell me why De Lubac is so bad? I have now begun to read a couple of his things and I can't find anything really offensive. He seems steeped in the Fathers.
October 6 at 2:41pm · Like
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Pater Edmund That guy was a total moron.
October 6 at 2:41pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund I have a list of lectures, but it is missing some years, including the ones we were there.
October 6 at 2:41pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Such is my memory. But I was fairly brash and overconfident at the time.
October 6 at 2:41pm · Like
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Joel HF De Lubac has an odd interpretation of Aquinas on the whole nature/grace thing. It may be fair to say that it is only nominally an interpretation, since that was what was required at the time, and the "esoteric" reading would be that he rejected Thomas on those topics. But that would be tendentious and argumentative.
October 6 at 2:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz de Lubac's main theological error is in the distinction of the supernatural and natural order...he himself saw Humani generis's condemnation of that as aimed at him.
His main personal fault was in wanting to "purge" from the Church those that disagreed with him, like Garrigou Lagrange.....de Lubc was not a nice man
October 6 at 2:43pm · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund The fat guy mentioned by Kenz didn't know that cause and effect are simultaneous, nor the definition of nature.
October 6 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF De Lubac also loved Teilhard, which makes a lot of people nervous.
October 6 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. I found out that he didn't know the def, of NAture in the Q&A.
October 6 at 2:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--is this the guy the two of us argued wtih for what seemed like (and probably was) hours afterwards?
October 6 at 2:44pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Yeah, it must have been senior year because they gave us wine and cheese in the lounge.
October 6 at 2:44pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF It was indeed senior year. I know because at one point I started talking about Hegel.
October 6 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Joshua Kenz, I knew that about him. Other things he writes, though, are great. Especially if one is looking for patristic sources.
October 6 at 2:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Teilhard was not a heretic...but an apostate. It is very hard to see how an orthodox person can defend him...he himself admitted to being a pantheist in a letter thanking someone for defending him from that charge.
October 6 at 2:45pm · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund Daniel I pity you for having to listen to my old friend Damian F. Another complete moron; please don't consider him representative of his school...
October 6 at 2:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He seemed past his prime, Pater.
October 6 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Someone write the bigwigs at TAC and get a list of the lectures from 01/02 through 05/06.
October 6 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But he was a great lecturer.
October 6 at 2:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh no doubt, de Lubac was a patristic scholar, but he was of the school that would, at Vatican II, exult in erasing everything between Augustine and now (I cannot remember the quote, but one of the bishops said something like that explicitly)
This is the whole problem with ressourcement, they want to use the Fathers as a way of freeing themselves from "neo scholasticism" but that means also reading the Fathers contrary, often, to how they have ben received...every question is re opened for debate
October 6 at 2:47pm · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "patristic"= "freedom to be unclear vs all those meanie Scholastics who say what they mean unmistakably"
October 6 at 2:49pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, while you, of course, know how I would defend the primacy of Aquinas in studying matters, theological, nevertheless, I think that it is well for us to be attentive to what De Lubac and the Resourcesment guys were driving at.
October 6 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Dr. Richard...that is the tutor I could not remember the name of
October 6 at 2:51pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz What were they driving at, hmm?
October 6 at 2:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Dr. Richard was amazing. The College lost a lot when he retired.
October 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I think a lot of people were/are alienated from the Church, her traditions, her doctrines, and certainly scholasticism. There was/is a need to rediscover the teachings of the Church.
October 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Aggiornamento!
October 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF There certainly is such a need now.
October 6 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I know faithful and well-educated, orthodox, Catholics who even feel alienated by the works of Garrigou Lagrange.
They are not brought closer to Christ.
October 6 at 2:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Aggiornamento"
-St. John XXIII
October 6 at 2:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But rejecting 1500 years of development?
That is the whole problem. To go to the Fathers and, more importantly, scripture is great. But when doing so is treated as hitting a big giant reset button...
The problems, and you see this in the liturgy, get worse in that what they "ressource" is not what the Fathers actually said or did, but their own very modern constructs. The liturgy is actually a very good example of that. Even the Holy week restoration in the 1950's was nothing of the sort.
October 6 at 2:58pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF But one might wonder whether ressourcement isn't part of the reason why.
October 6 at 2:58pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joshua we agree on the problems.
October 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is why Benedict's Hermeneutic of continuity is so important.
October 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Of course we cannot do away with 1500 years of development. But modernity happened.
October 6 at 2:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Modernity caused a definitive break.
October 6 at 3:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Right, Lendman is looking at the fruits f the auto-demolition of the Church, not at the issues that existed contemporaneously with these movements. The problems with neo-scholasticism were there. But I think something like the Thomistic Circles were a far healthier solution (if only that didn't fall apart)
October 6 at 3:00pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And how is ressourcement an answer to that?
October 6 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't think it is.
October 6 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman At least, not a good answer.
October 6 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What do you mean by modernity?
October 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Modern philosophy and its effects.
October 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, what would you think about trying to reboot Thomistic Circles?
October 6 at 3:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Modernity didn't spring out of nowhere in 1960. Modernity had been going on for a good while. It was a challenge, to be sure, but there were responses being made. Too much of the church's history post 1960 looks more like a capitulation than an answer.
October 6 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think ressourcement is a post-modern reaction to the alienation from Church and Doctrine that was de facto part of the experience of mid-twentieth century CAtholiicism
October 6 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What alienation from Church and Doctrine? I'd be the first to say that there were serious problems in the 1950s, say. But I'm not sure I understand the "alienation" to which you refer.
October 6 at 3:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, I think part of the reason for that appearance (reality?) is that the council of Trent was so powerful and so influential. However, there was a negative effect from Trent that the Church lacked the mobility to change her teaching style to accommodate the needs of the age.
October 6 at 3:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman By alienation, i meant that when most theologians and Catholics read Aquinas, they don't see the face of Christ. They see a multitude of distinctions and an intellecualisation of the faith. In short they are alienated.
October 6 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Well, I'm actually sympathetic to this view, because I feel alienated by most sermons and masses that I could attend these days. But again, that's because it is so banal and this-worldly, when it isn't out and out heretical.
October 6 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg Evangelical protestantism could also be said to underscore the alientation between scripture and doctrine.
October 6 at 3:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Okay, so what about something like rebooting the Thomistic Circles?
October 6 at 3:07pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Practical alternative ^
October 6 at 3:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anecdote time:
I once played Francois Couperin's Trois Lecons de Tenebrae for a girl who grew up only in a house with Hip Hop and Rap, etc. I think it among the most beautiful works of music ever written. She only laughed.
She could not hear the music. If I told her that is all she would get to listen to, she would feel alienated and lost.
October 6 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman #anecdotegnosis
October 6 at 3:09pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg I think to see the face of Christ, you need to read Thomas in proper context of the full exegesis of the Church's interpretation of Scripture. Then you see the full synthesis between faith and reason, and you have a good foundation to approach the moderns and some of the more recent Christian philosophers who are contributors.
October 6 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Yes, so the solution, however, would be to find a way to take her by the hand and lead her to appreciate that music. Not to scrap all classical music programs and replace them with easy listening, b/c otherwise the people won't understand.
October 6 at 3:11pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz But the answer would not be to then only play rap and hip-hop, right? It would be to develop her taste, in some way, and lead her to it
October 6 at 3:11pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Yes and Yes!
October 6 at 3:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But we have to speak the same language first.
October 6 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We have to discover terms that adequately express the truth.
October 6 at 3:12pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz So, cough (and actual cough still sick), Thomistic Circles....a start or no?
October 6 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Post Vatican II the answer has been to replace meat, not with milk, but with junk food. They make it worse!
October 6 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is why I say that the way the world today stands to doctrine is as a neo-patristic age. Not in regards to authority, but in regards to our inability to express the doctrines of the Church in ways that we understand.
October 6 at 3:13pm · Like
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Joel HF I'd need to know more about Thomistic circles.
October 6 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz what would that entail?
October 6 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz It was a joint project between Lagrange and Maritain, as an answer to the objection made with Lagrange's position that holiness was a universal call
October 6 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But what shall it be, now.
October 6 at 3:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The idea would be to have in parishes a spiritual group that would both study St. Thomas, but would center it in prayer, especially liturgical prayer.
October 6 at 3:15pm · Like · 6
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Joel HF ^That sounds great.
October 6 at 3:16pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It was meant to be something to reach the average layman, and not just scholars.
See the objection to Lagrange was that he held acquired contemplation was a natural fruit of the life of grace, yet the experience of most people did not in include it. He and Maritain reasoned that there was, besides moral impediments, an alienation of most laity from the prayer of the Church and her thought, a bifurcation, one via for religious, another via for laity. So that what his opponents (mostly Jesuits) had argued when denying the universal call to holiness, had been, in some sense, caused in effect in what you might call an alienation
October 6 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Problem was the Maritains founded the group, asked Lagrange to be its first spiritual director, and then the Spanish Civil War happened and Lagrange and Maritain had a falling out....very sad
October 6 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia anecdote time. We have catechism for teenagers, for children and Aquinas classes for adults at my parish, centered around the Mass.
October 6 at 3:19pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I am bad at reaching laymen.
October 6 at 3:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Faith seeking understanding seems to be our effort to understand the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. I think Scott Hahn gets this and is able to convey that to a certain audience.
October 6 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia They also have Baroque concerts on select Sundays throughout the year, free of charge
October 6 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am still bad a reaching laymen.
October 6 at 3:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, I like you parish Michael Beitia.
October 6 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia annual Sox game trips, two summer picnics, a campfire by lake Michigan annually, ice skating and the University of Chicago, a youth group (for young adults) ..... summer camps for children, a choir camp to learn how to sing traditional church music....
I could go on
October 6 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF From my experience, it is better to challenge people than to pander to them. One shouldn't be obnoxious or even confrontational necessarily. But presenting something that is challenging but holy is better than presenting something accessible yet banal.
October 6 at 3:23pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sounds like you have a good parish.
October 6 at 3:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It's pretty much the only thing keeping me in Illinois.
That and my sons serve Mass
October 6 at 3:24pm · Like
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Joel HF I walked out of the first Catholic mass I ever remember attending, with the thought that "well, whatever these people believe, they don't believe Christ is present in the mass!"
October 6 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia (sorry it is only Tridentine Mass though..... no NO)
October 6 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think most faithful Catholics agree Joel HF. The problem comes in the execution of principles.
October 6 at 3:25pm · Like
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Joel HF Why are you apologizing Michael Beitia? Sounds great!
October 6 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Also, things that I like and appreciate, aren't the same for others.
October 6 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Most people do not feel at home at the Extraordinary form of the mass.
October 6 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Because if I don't Peterson will call me a "crusty trad"
October 6 at 3:26pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I don't feel at home at the extraordinary form of the mass.
October 6 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Daniel, that is NOT my experience. My parish is the ghetto in South Side Chicago. . . we have locals from the community there. We have conversions there.
October 6 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman There is something real going on in your parish Michael that is clearly is working and overcoming barriers.
October 6 at 3:27pm · Like
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Michael Beitia bishop will be there on Oct. 26th. my two oldest sons are being confirmed
October 6 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF To bring things full circle again, the priest who wound up receiving me, reminds me strongly of the priest who hears the confession in "The Enduring Chill." Very little effort (if any) spent sugar-coating.
October 6 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Are you at the Institute of Christ the King church in Chicago?
October 6 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My guess is that there are some very holy priests at your parish.
October 6 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But what works in Chicago, may not work elsewhere.
October 6 at 3:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Restoring a sense of the sacred seems to be key, though.
October 6 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, you and I have opposite reactions to the EF....when I first went to one, it felt like home right off the bat....
October 6 at 3:29pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman ^I wish that happened to me.
October 6 at 3:30pm · Like
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Joel HF There's a part in Acts (I think), where St. Paul says that they didn't even prepare their speech, but merely trusted in the Holy Spirit so that the glory of any conversions would go to God. I think that attitude is seriously missing today. Present the truth of Christ! Don't worry so much about if it is comfortable for divorced couples, or for people living in sin! Confront them (lovingly) with the truth and trust in God!
October 6 at 3:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I wanted that to happen.
October 6 at 3:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I also recognize that, to the extent I don't feel at home at EF, there is probably something lacking in me.
October 6 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--I had the same experience. It felt like home, like a refuge.
October 6 at 3:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe To add to the statistical sample here, I felt like Daniel. Did *not* like EF
October 6 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, prudence is hard.
October 6 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Yes Joel
http://www.institute-christ-king.org/chicago/
Shrine of Christ the King § Chicago Latin Mass
The Institute of Christ the King (ICRSP, ICRSS, ICKSP)...
INSTITUTE-CHRIST-KING.ORG|BY INSTITUTE OF CHRIST THE KING
October 6 at 3:32pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It is much easier to know what a pastor ought to do when I do not have the responsibility of the souls of others on my head.
October 6 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--there is definitely a learning curve to the EF. What I liked was (a) the quiet, and (b) that the priest wasn't putting on a "show" for the people but was quite evidently offering something to God.
October 6 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I feel weird being older than all the priests, though
October 6 at 3:33pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg A lot of the macho layman at our parish seem to be asking the same question, deep down. That is what does God expect of me? I think this is a question that has cropped up through the ages. The answer is the same: what is devotion? I think devotion makes us happy and makes things clear.
October 6 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I appreciate those things too, Joel HF.
October 6 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not many people talk at our coffee and donut hour here; but they did in Virginia, and Holy Transfiguration Melkite Catholic. People from all over the world. Great conversation always.
October 6 at 3:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course I think that all of the extra things at our parish are useless without the Mass.
October 6 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman My 'favorite' masses to go to were early morning Novus Ordo masses where the priest celebrated ad orientem.
October 6 at 3:35pm · Like
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Joel HF How I felt at my first few EF (as a non-catholic): "it was as though someone had switched off the wireless, and a voice that had been bawling in my ears, incessantly, fatuously, for days beyond number, had been suddenly cut short; an immense silence followed, empty at first, but gradually, as my outraged sense regained authority, full of a multitude of sweet and natural and long-forgotten sounds."
October 6 at 3:36pm · Like · 6
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Joshua Kenz It was also striking how Catholic the EF congregation was and still is. At my home parish the 8 am Mass is for older white people, 10 am is white people, and Phillipinos, 12 pm is Spanish
At the EF we have a black priest give communion to a Chinese lady, and on the other side is a Mexican priest giving communion to a young Indian boy....normally I am not big on "diversity" but it does say something that all ages and races show up. Seriously, I don't remember ever seeing a single black person at my home parish ever. But there are a dozen at the EF.
October 6 at 3:36pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Latin is the great unifier and equalizer.
October 6 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am to bed, TNET. Be well.
October 6 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF To a certain extent, this is due to the fact that EF has artificially short supply. If there were more of them, each one wouldn't feel like such an event. I'll also say that the EF does tend to attract some kooks. But they aren't the majority by any stretch.
October 6 at 3:38pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I wonder if it matters where you were introduced....the EF at the college was often badly done before Summorum Pontificum (worse in Ventura before the other Joel and a few of us pitched in). On the other hand, you have the OF being done better at the college than most places.
Whereas my first experience was a high Mass at Santa Teresita. Yeah now I know that the servers serve it funny, and there are peculiarities, but it was and is more like the EF should be than what was at the College before SP. And my best experience with the NO, at the time, were Fr. Buckley's Masses at Santa Teresita (I had him as a chaplain before TAC, take that!), which were fine, but as low as low can be...you know Jesuits
You know it is funny how often Fr. Buckley and I bumped head considering we came to the college at the same time, from the same place and already knew each other....
October 6 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I dragged a friend who had been baptised Catholic but raised protestant to the EF, before going to TAC. He had been to a few Catholic Masses (funerals, weddings). His reaction was priceless : It was like the priest was offering a sacrifice.
NB he didn't know Catholics considered the Mass a sacrifice. That spoke volumes to me
October 6 at 3:43pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Latin does not fly that well in the Eastern Catholic Church.
October 6 at 3:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And in some western Churches Latin has been a wedge.
October 6 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg The old Greek and Arabic liturgy of John Chrysostom is sacred and mysterious. The latin seems modern when compared to it.
October 6 at 3:46pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Melkite right is beautiful and joyful. I prefer the contemplative (esp low mass) EF. I feel like I am at calvary.
October 6 at 3:53pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger rite
October 6 at 3:51pm · Like
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Joel HF ^The Roman rite is extremely old; in fact, I'm pretty sure it is older than the liturgy of John Chysostum. And Eastern Catholic churches obviously wouldn't be using Latin.
October 6 at 3:51pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley I must say I like the Eastern Chants better.
October 6 at 3:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley Although, I'm not really sure whether they are as well suited to Divine Worship.
October 6 at 3:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Byzantine liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is from 400 AD. It is based on the Trinitarian theology of the early Church.
October 6 at 3:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott--yes, it seems relatively modern compared to the Roman Canon.
October 6 at 4:03pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF
October 6 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Latin Rite seems more focused on one moment of Consecration. The Eastern Catholic Rite (in union with Rome) seems more about the entire liturgy as a whole. Both are very well-suited for divine worship, as is the novus ordo "sans" liturgical abuse. Liturgy has always been in part responsive to culture.
October 6 at 4:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What Roman liturgies are we using today? Are they the same ones that were used in the early, early Church?
October 6 at 4:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I thought the liturgy of the Tridentine Mass was from the 16th century. It would be great to participate in a Mass that was said in the very early Church, say around 100AD. They probably did not play the electric guitar at that Mass.
October 6 at 4:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But yes, those Byzantines were modern by comparison. But at least they were in union with Rome and the liturgy didn't cause the rift.
October 6 at 4:12pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Right. As Fortescue demonstrates, the Roman rite of his day was essentially the same as that of the 1st Roman Ordo (already older than the normal Eastern liturgies), and in its essential characteristics dates back much further than any other Rite. Using rite in an historical way, to also include derivatives like the Dominican or Lyonese, etc and to refer to the essential root of that family, of course.
October 6 at 4:13pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Can there be overfocus on the consecration, Scott?
October 6 at 4:20pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, with things like Elevation music (organ)
October 6 at 4:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But if you mean as the central action of the liturgy? No. The sacrifice of Mass consists in the double consecration.
October 6 at 4:14pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Another data point, I initially avoided the EF as Freshman (no reason other than it was the early mass and I was unfamiliar) but (now) Br. Pat Carter warmed me up to it, and my first experience was spellbinding--maybe even life-changing. Sadly I only can experience the EF a couple times a year. This greatly saddens me.
October 6 at 4:18pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I think there can be diminished participation in the other parts of the Mass.
October 6 at 4:18pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott, see Kenz's reply, but if you can't, the Roman rite has the oldest canon going back to the very early church. Much older than trent which, for the most part, merely mandated a standard usage of the rite and did not create it. I don't think Trent even modified the canon much, if at all.
October 6 at 4:18pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg What are you calling the Roman Rite? Agree that the Mass said in Rome in the early Church was a liturgical Rite of the Roman Church, if this is what you mean.
October 6 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think the sobriety of expression and minutiae of detail of the Tridentine Rite is unappealing to many; yet the looseness of the implementation of the novus ordo is as equally unappealing. But these two Rites are valid and holy and that is what counts. A few of the Eastern Rites are in union with Rome. These must be treasured also.
October 6 at 4:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have a fascimile of a 15th century Roman Missal.
Joel is right, the canon was not modified. Not one word. From maybe the 5th century to 1962. Though, in several medieval uses, there were additions, both in the place where the pope and local ordinary are named (some places added the king of France of Emperor) and also in the list of saints, in the communicantes, local saints were added. So if Trent "modified" the canon, it was only in standardizing a form that did not include latter additions
The main thing in the 1571 Missal was a) standardizing the prayers at the foot. Cf. the Dominican or Lyonese rites. b) Standardizing the offertory prayers cf. Dominican again c) culling prefaces and other medieval accretions
In fact, if you want to see the extent of Tridentine reform, look at the Dominican rite. The prayers as the foot, the offertory, and to some degree the confieteor/ecce agnus dei/prayers before communion. These are the parts that developed in the middle ages. Trent favored the southeastern forms that took hold, whereas the Dominican evidences the northeastern forms (offering of gifts under one prayer e.g.)
Really all Trent did was cull some additions, and choose between varying forms for other developments. Now if you want to bash Tridentine reform, the Divine Office is where it screwed the pooch...mistaking simplicity for antiquity, it standardized the curial form of the office, which, in fact, was simpler because truncated...i.e. things that made sense in a parochial office, made little sense in the curia, without a congregation....but that is another topic, and in any case did not make a substantial change to the structure of the Office.
October 6 at 4:27pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I think my thermometer broke...went to see what my fever was now...according to the thermometer I am borderline hypothermic (96°F seems low to me), yet I am breaking out in cold seats and having flashes of heat...
October 6 at 4:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Maybe I need to lay down
October 6 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Scott, the Roman canon has been substantially the same since long long before Trent. (Not sure if you can see Kenz)
October 6 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Um, yes, Mr. Kenz, go lie down
October 6 at 4:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe take a nap. drink some fluids.
October 6 at 4:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What do you mean by "substantially the same"? And what was the Roman Rite in the year 50AD? The Tridentine, the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Novus Ordo could be said to be "substantially the same."
October 6 at 4:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not sure who Kenz is. Can't see him. Is he an advocate of the Tridentine Mass? I think that Rite is sacred, but I know there have been some problems with a few of their proponents which is sad. I am glad the Tridentine Mass is being said in more and more places. Hopefully all things will work out in the end.
October 6 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Trent screwed the pooch"- Joshua Kenz
October 6 at 4:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict ARRGGH why can I suddenly see Scott again? Can you please re-block me, Pope Weinberg?
October 6 at 5:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Edward - more on the haiku later. I'm surprised to see you so quickly dismissive of it.
October 6 at 5:15pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
October 6 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg JE, not sure what Joshua means by that, or the basis for that statement. Please xplain if you want to.
October 6 at 5:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Isak, out of respect to the Bishop of Rome, please do not call me Pope. Not sure what you are doing with your photo-shopping other than behaving like an idiot. But that's your choice.
October 6 at 5:25pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg So much is made of the liturgy these days, as if one form is to exclude another. It's good to participate in other rites from time to time, it seems to me. There are many valid and sacred liturgies.
October 6 at 5:40pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. I only go EF. (but I have been to the Ukrainian Catholic Church by my house for divine liturgy - I object strenuously to screwing up my Cyrillic with the letter "i")
October 6 at 6:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman tNET has devolved into blockean and nonblockean factions.
October 6 at 6:14pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Sir Isak, it took me FOREVER to find a picture of you on the internet but, at last, here it is. Sir Isak Piggybutt:
October 6 at 6:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I wonder if you had safe search on when you did that PereScott. better clear the browser history before your wife finds searches for "pig's ass"
October 6 at 6:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and this is our only alliance John, the non-blockian
October 6 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman That and I'm into Beitiality.
October 6 at 6:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Beitiality? Is that nouveaux-troll?
October 6 at 6:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Matthew, for the record, in reference to your tNET status claim that no college reads more Aristotle and Thomas than TAC, this is simply false, my good man. Christendom College reads more Aristotle: The Organon, Physics, Metaphysics plus the minor books including On the Motion of Animals; plus most all of the Summa, as well has his minor treatises on politics. And the students are not coerced into reading Freud. (Incidentally, Freud is irrelevant in the world of psychology today, which is becoming increasingly empirical; Freud was not an advocate of empirical science.) But the point is, why boast of Aristotle and Thomas, when you read only a fraction of Catholic Doctrine, and students graduate with little or no understanding of sacred theology, let alone even knowing what it is, or what it means? And if you do not know this, at least in context, how do you know anything? -- Scott Weinberg, aka Jonathan Scott Weinberg, NP Jonathan Scott, NP Peregrine Bonaventure, Peregrino Bonaventura, Peregrina Bonaventuro....
October 6 at 6:28pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Blocke's Natural Fights Theory
October 6 at 6:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz
I have a fascimile of a 15th century Roman Missal.
Joel is right, the canon was not modified. Not one word. From maybe the 5th century to 1962. Though, in several medieval uses, there were additions, both in the place where the pope and local ordinary are named (some places added the king of France of Emperor) and also in the list of saints, in the communicantes, local saints were added. So if Trent "modified" the canon, it was only in standardizing a form that did not include latter additions
The main thing in the 1571 Missal was a) standardizing the prayers at the foot. Cf. the Dominican or Lyonese rites. b) Standardizing the offertory prayers cf. Dominican again c) culling prefaces and other medieval accretions
In fact, if you want to see the extent of Tridentine reform, look at the Dominican rite. The prayers as the foot, the offertory, and to some degree the confieteor/ecce agnus dei/prayers before communion. These are the parts that developed in the middle ages. Trent favored the southeastern forms that took hold, whereas the Dominican evidences the northeastern forms (offering of gifts under one prayer e.g.)
Really all Trent did was cull some additions, and choose between varying forms for other developments. Now if you want to bash Tridentine reform, the Divine Office is where it screwed the pooch...mistaking simplicity for antiquity, it standardized the curial form of the office, which, in fact, was simpler because truncated...i.e. things that made sense in a parochial office, made little sense in the curia, without a congregation....but that is another topic, and in any case did not make a substantial change to the structure of the Office.
October 6 at 6:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here, block this... but buy it first, and read it to your kids, before bed; it will make them smile and ensure they have sweet and pious dreams:
http://www.kellerbooks.com/?page=shop%2Fflypage...
The Blessed Book of Beasts - Jonathan Scott
Hot Off The Presses! Large Softcover Book of 221 pages. In this wonderful blessed book, you will learn from the...
KELLERBOOKS.COM
October 6 at 6:27pm · Like
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John Ashman Beitiality. The state of thread domination.
October 6 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, did VII modify the canon or permit alternatives?
October 6 at 6:29pm · Like
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Joel HF It modified it, even the the so called EP I is quite different from the pre 1962 canon
October 6 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This is kinda interesting: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Canon
History of the Roman Canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Herbermann, Charles, ed. (1913). Catholic Encyclopedia. Robert Appleton Company.
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 6 at 6:39pm · Like · Remove Preview
Scott Weinberg These sources indicate the Roman Rite remained unchanged from around the 7th century. Was it essentially the same in the year 50-100AD? The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom we have today at my Church (Holy Transfiguration) is from the 4th century.
October 6 at 6:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Best-selling author Michael O'Brien described my book as "delightful."
http://www.kellerbooks.com/?page=shop%2Fflypage...
The Blessed Book of Beasts - Jonathan Scott
Hot Off The Presses! Large Softcover Book of 221 pages. In this wonderful blessed book, you will learn from the...
KELLERBOOKS.COM
October 6 at 6:48pm · Like
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Adrw Lng In addition to Joshua Kenz's excellent suggestion of the renewal of Thomistic schools, there needs to be a revitalization of lay apostolates understood as such, and a renewal and greater promotion of the 3rd orders.
October 6 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Nerds
October 6 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer I just felt like I needed to post something to stay in the flow of tNET
October 6 at 7:19pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg There needs to be a renewal of schools that understand Catholic Dogma and sacred theology, or what is the point of Thomas, and what is the point of trying to revise history to make the Tridentine liturgy seem like the one in which the desert Fathers participated.
October 6 at 7:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah anti-Tridentine too? Desert Fathers were in the East, so of course they didn't. Revisionist history is different from what you engage in how?
October 6 at 7:39pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Joel, to be clear, VII didn't modify the Canon or add more EPs, the post-conciliar Consilium did.
October 6 at 7:47pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF V. true, Sean, and they were led by the aptly named Annibale Bugnini.
October 6 at 7:50pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Sorry.... but....Read a little- a few refreshes back. Wish I hadn't. The level of ignorance regarding Scott Hahn's work in the field of Biblical Theology is pretty much astounding. But - after having read attempts here at exegesis, I guess I am not surprised. Anyone who would declare Hahn an amateur knows nothing of him. Truly. He writes popular books because they are catechetical and they help people. It's not about him.
Subscribe to the Letter and Spirit Journal from his St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology if you want to see some of the best Biblical Theology today. Worth it for Pablo Gadenz' article on inerrancy and the discussion of "for the sake of our salvation" clause out of Dei Verbum. Please tell me at least some of you have read Benedict XVI's Jesus of Nazareth trilogy? Also - have a look at Hahn's "Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700".
Once again, Pater Edmund is making sense...... he knows Hahn is great.
October 6 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think some Hahn detractors do not like him because he too explicitely shows that theology must be done in light of the Church's full and complete interpretation of Scripture. People do not like that because it takes away their right to choose their own version of faith. But I say bravo to Scott Hahn!
October 6 at 8:29pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Marie Pitt-Payne, I don't mean to be sunshine on a cloudy day, but apart from the Scott Hahn bashing, has it all been that bad? I mean, don't you like Sir Isak's carricatures of me?
October 6 at 8:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Anyway, buy my new book please. It is the first Catholic bestiary devotional written in hundreds of years, and great for parents and their children. The great Dr. Bernard Nathanson called it "an answered prayer."
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 8:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is this the longest, trolliest advertisement known to man?
October 6 at 9:03pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe From the link Scott provided in one of the book images: "In this blessed book, discover why the Unicorn is a symbol for Christ..."
Scott Weinberg doesn't think Christ is real, is all I'm getting from that....
October 6 at 9:07pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill When are rad trads just Protestants?
October 6 at 9:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia beats me? when are they?
October 6 at 9:10pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Serpent was a dragon that Adam failed to fight off at risk of his life...got you. Astounding it is, as in it stuns me anyone takes that seriously.
I by no means say he has no good work. But it shouldn't be a shocker to hear he has some peculiar views, no?
Now in fairness to Hahn, he will seriously engage criticism. E.., he wrote a lengthy and charitable reply to a friend of mine who criticized him on the Trnity, here : http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/.../scott-hahns...
Don't be so quick to throw around accusations of ignorance. I criticize him on at least on major issue he is "famous" for, the 4th cup hypothesis he took from de Lubac. Therefore I must be ignorant, even though such an interpretation is not well supported historically and has theological implications that are problematic?
I believe Escalante was the only one that called him an amateur. I would call him a popularizer, even in his more serious academic works. And that is by no means an insult. We need popularizers. But legitimate criticism remains, no?
October 6 at 9:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill Like all virtues there are sins in the extremes.
October 6 at 9:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no Jeff, virtue lies in the mean, but we can never have too much virtue
October 6 at 9:15pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Hay Max Summe, you little punk.
October 6 at 9:16pm · Like
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Max Summe Hey - I'm not the one who said Christ is a Unicorn....
October 6 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg (Psalm 91:11) My horn shall be exalted like that of the unicorn.
October 6 at 9:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Summe, unicorns are real!
October 6 at 9:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, Rhinos are real
October 6 at 9:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Psalm 22:21 why would we need to be saved FROM Christ?
October 6 at 9:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg In the Middle Ages, the following were used as literary symbols for Christ: the fish, the pelican, the unicorn. Max Summe is an ignoramus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiologus
Physiologus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Physiologus is a didactic text written or compiled in...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 6 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott is a namecaller. Jerk
October 6 at 9:20pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz No, seriously. Older depictions show them with a goat head. And there are goats with one horn...artificially induced...hypothesized it was a way of marking leaders of herds
October 6 at 9:20pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here is the first authentic Catholic bestiary written since the Middle Ages. Dr. Onalee McGraw, describes it as being in the tradition of Tolkien and Lewis.
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia longest trolliest advertisement ever
October 6 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg FACT: in the Middle Ages, several animals were part of a literary tradition in which they were used as symbols for Christ. These were pious manuscripts of Rhetoric known as the bestiary:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And this is the first one written in hundreds of years:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And you should buy it, and read to your children:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And you also might learn something about your faith and the Catholic literary history:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's 7 times without scrolling up tNET. I thought adblock blocked things like you Scott
October 6 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Heretic.
October 6 at 9:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia wtf?
October 6 at 9:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is telling how TAC heretics bash Scott Hahn, use vulgar words, state falehoods without discrimination, engage in slander and harrassment, and now also make false claims about the first book of its kind written in hundreds of years:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Blessed Book of Beasts Combination Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren.
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia You're spamming
October 6 at 9:26pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y
Spam - Monty Python's The Flying Circus
Subscribe to the Official Monty Python Channel here - http://smarturl.it/SubscribeToPythonSpam, taken from...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 6 at 9:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You're an ignoramus.
October 6 at 9:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia still calling names... jerk
October 6 at 9:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You're an ignoramus and a heretic.
October 6 at 9:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia neither nor, pope PereScott
October 6 at 9:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You're an idiot.
October 6 at 9:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg http://www.rna.org/news/184377/Beasts-from-the-East.htm
“Beasts from the East” - RELIGION | NEWSWRITERS
Fairfax, VA (For Immediate Release) -- Eastern Christian...
RNA.ORG
October 6 at 9:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia still wrong, and still just calling names
October 6 at 9:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia aaah, switching up the ad copy?
October 6 at 9:32pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Read this, you might learn something:
http://www.catholicculture.org/comm.../the-city-gates.cfm...
The Blessed Book of Beasts
There is a long-standing Judeo-Christian tradition of using animals to teach moral and spiritual lessons. Jesus used...
CATHOLICCULTURE.ORG
October 6 at 9:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I doubt you have anything to teach me, so I'll pass
October 6 at 9:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm sure you've already learned a few things. Hey you better get to bed, Mr. Man of Leisure, you've got a long 9 to 5 ahead of you tomorrow.
October 6 at 9:34pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's one for free.
October 6 at 9:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, I start work at 6 a.m. actually. But punctuality is a vice of mine, so I'll probably be there at a quarter til, like usual. Sleep is for losers
October 6 at 9:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Fleur-de-lis
Long ago, before the world was wrought,
The Fleur-de-lis was by an Angel brought;
With heavenly choirs and paeans sweetly-voiced,
Unto that place, where Wisdom first rejoiced.
October 6 at 9:37pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I hope you do not come off so arrogant in the work place. I will pray for you.
October 6 at 9:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia probably worse. I do work with idiots, however
October 6 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You're a loser.
October 6 at 9:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia really? Out of the same mouth that offers prayers? You don't make any sense.
October 6 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg You're an arrogant Catholic loser, and I will pray for you.
October 6 at 9:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not exactly sure why I always seem to draw all your ire. Have you talked to your priest about this?
October 6 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia maybe because I'm the only one who engages you when you're in your bad mood name-calling shtick
October 6 at 9:44pm · Like
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Joel HF I suspect he's mad because no one here has bought his book.
October 6 at 9:45pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia I bring up Psalm 22 because that is where I remember "unicorn" from in the Psalms. (it features prominently in Lent, so I remember it) then all of a sudden I'm a idiot, and arrogant loser, ignoramus and a heretic.
I stand by my WTF
October 6 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hey, I'm sorry I called you a loser, but I will pray for you. My book is selling well actually. The thing that draws my righteous indignation is your name calling, and false attacks and false statements, like Joel HF's above to mention one of about 10,000 in this thread. You are supposed to be Catholic, which means decent and kind. You seem to have thrown all this away.
October 6 at 9:47pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne Joshua - I have come to respect your Theological knowledge by reading your comments, but there is a lot of ignorance of Biblical Theology on this thread, no? Every time I see anyone criticize Scott Hahn on specifics, it is always over the same things you mention: usually the "feminine" Holy Spirit (he met with the CDF to discuss that one) and the "serpent" issue. I do not hear much about the 4th Cup.
To be honest, it is about as relevant to me as the criticism of JPII for the Assisi prayer meeting, Mother Teresa for syncretism, Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception, Benedict XVI for his comment on condoms.... compared to their body of work, it seems excessive to dwell on a couple of things. Each person mentioned here would submit their whole body of work to the judgment of the Church, and to me, that is what matters.
He is a popularizer, thank God, and is willing to sacrifice his reputation to bring people into the Church through his catechetical works, which is fine with me. I admit to being one of his students - and I almost did not take my first class with him because I had heard the same stereotypes (not from students - from the general public). Thank God I did decide to take his classes, in Biblical and Systematic Theology.
My husband, who has his STB from Louvain, sat in on one of my classes with Hahn and said he learned more from him in 3 hours than he had in all of his prior Scripture study.
Having grown up in the Church prior to the Universal Catechism of 1992 and subject to the rampant abuse of Historical Criticism that destroyed the Faith of most of the people I knew and loved, Hahn has been such a gift to the Church that I can hardly quantify it.
October 6 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Unicorn is in the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible. The Unicorn was a literary symbol of Christ in the Middle Ages. These are just facts.
October 6 at 9:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I KNOW SCOTT PSALM 22 DON'T YOU READ!?
October 6 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Go home, Scott: you're drunk.
October 6 at 9:50pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I am not surprised that TAC types criticize Scott Hahn. They seem to criticize so much without factual justification. It is truly sad. But God speed to you in your efforts.
October 6 at 9:50pm · Like
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Marie Pitt-Payne (PS - I am not saying I necessarily agree with/consider valid the above criticisms of JPII, Benedict, Mother Teresa, St. Thomas, etc.....)
October 6 at 9:50pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, no I am not drunk. I actually do not drink; and I am at home.
October 6 at 9:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "unicorn" is in the vulgate.
October 6 at 9:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I know
October 6 at 9:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I mentioned it several times
October 6 at 9:51pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell What? Not drinking is the first sign of a heresiarch ... no love for "wine, that gladdeneth the heart of man" ... ?
October 6 at 9:51pm · Unlike · 4
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Brian Kemple I don't trust a man who doesn't drink.
October 6 at 9:53pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia Patton
October 6 at 9:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Have any of you seen this video. It is Dr. McArthur (God bless him forever) in his "Definitional 'Preaching to the Choir'" series, #1 of 876.
http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/.../dr-ronald-p-mcarthur...
Dr. Ronald P. McArthur: Essays & Videos | Thomas Aquinas College
Alumnus Phil Halpin (’97) has uploaded two vintage...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 6 at 9:53pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Shun the non-believer ... shuuuuuunnnnnn ...
October 6 at 9:54pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg My heart is always glad. The sacred teachings of the Church are my refreshments.
October 6 at 9:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Has anyone "here" on tNET bought your book Scott?
October 6 at 9:55pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Whenever I see that you're back, Scott, my heart is gladdened because I figure we're good for another 10,000 comments.
October 6 at 9:56pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Yes, and it has sold about thousand copies since its release. When you write a book, and you are lucky to get it published, the goal must be for the book to be good, but also for it to be something people will see and want to take home with them.
October 6 at 9:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia HERE. Joel said HERE.
(and congratulations, BTW)
October 6 at 9:57pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Thank you Catherine, I worked in DC for about 15 years, as a writer in the Bush admin and in media. I am very good at generating reaction. I raised my family on politics for over a decade.
October 6 at 9:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Mrs. Pitt-Payne I don't disagree, and as I said I don't mean popularizer as an insult. We need popularizers. And I have been impressed that he has been willing to seriously address criticism, when one bothers to actually make it to him.
The exchange between me and Daniel was almost an inside joke...stemming from a time where I got frustrated with apologists/apologetics and amateur apologists setting themselves up as authorities....I believe I somewhat harshly bashed Hahn, because so many quoted him as some authority. Problem with learning theology via apologetics...it is about convincing/refuting the protestant. Suddenly you are the enemy if you point out that this or that idea/interpretation is open for criticism
I don't remember exactly the issues I shared with Daniel, but the 4th cup was the issue that set me off on him. Probably in part after getting into it with a Catholic "apologist" that treated a protestant insultingly who didn't see the obviousness of it. My pointing out that it is not held by most Catholic authors and is fairly novel was seen as somehow an evil work.
Since then my criticism is far more tempered, and the number one thing I would want him to do is in his popular works, more clearly distinguish his opinion from the Church teaching he presents. The fault that set me off is as much, of course, on some of his readers if not more so. And it was somewhat brash to treat him as harshly as I once did. Lendman, no doubt, was remembering my dislike and baiting me. But as I said, it has been tempered, not least because I have seen Hahn respond charitably to some of the criticism. I don't think he is on a high horse as some of his fans were....
October 6 at 9:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks. It was not an easy book to write. It took about ten years, and a year and a half of heavy polishing. It's 424 lines of heroic couplets. Published. Catholic. That is not easy. I am actually humbled and proud at the same time. It does not pretend to be high poetry, but it is ok. Thank you.
October 6 at 9:59pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia seriously, my sister is a published author, (not Catholic, and YA genre) and it took her years. I know it takes effort. But shit man, call off your dogs, Helen....
October 6 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And I wish the founders and tutors of TAC would draw attention to the teachings of the Church, the Dogmas, instead of the great books. That's all. That's my opinion.
October 6 at 10:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg you got it.
October 6 at 10:00pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Beitia: Any titles from your sister that you would recommend?
October 6 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Lauren Washburn Rogers Who is Jonathan Scott?
October 6 at 10:02pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sam Rocha Scott Weinberg wrote, "I actually do not drink; and I am at home." Thanks, captain obvious!
October 6 at 10:04pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Sam, I do not think that's relevant. You're Canadian.
October 6 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Maybe that is Scott's problem...no drink
October 6 at 10:06pm · Like · 3
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Sam Rocha Yes. And stays at home.
October 6 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Jonathan Scott is Scott Weinberg
October 6 at 10:10pm · Like
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Edward Langley AFAICT
October 6 at 10:10pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wow....so he premptively blocked me this time
October 6 at 10:10pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Probably because last time he had multiple accounts I reported it as a violation....
October 6 at 10:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley No, Joshua Kenz, Jonathan Scott is Weinberg's pen name that he uses for the bestiary.
October 6 at 10:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, Jonathan Scott is Peregrine Bonaventure's pen name.
October 6 at 10:12pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz ok. Thought he was posting under yet another name, Jonathan Scott Weinberg has been used by him before, in his political trolling
October 6 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Anyways, unlike Scott, I only advertise my initiatives every once in a while. And then, when I do, I only mention them tangentially. So, someone besides me has inquired about the relation of the Five Ways to metaphysics and natural philosophy, a question over which much ink has been spilt, both in the last century and in the millenia since Aristotle.
October 6 at 10:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You guys seem to like to talk a lot about things, but also seem to find discussion perilously difficult. Why is that?
October 6 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley http://socraticum.com/.../proofs-for-gods-existence.../101
Socraticum.com
Discussion group for the philosophically minded
SOCRATICUM.COM
October 6 at 10:14pm · Like · Remove Preview
Scott Weinberg O yes, and why does TAC present the five ways as the first prinsiples of sacred theology. Clearly they are not, but the Dogmas are. So why is there no outlay of Dogma?
October 6 at 10:14pm · Like
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Max Summe Thanks for coming back to tNET Scott. This thread missed its troll
October 6 at 10:15pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here, buy this book Ed, it will help unravel the mystery for you:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind...
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 10:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You are a troll, Max. Not me. A troll is defined by false words, not true ones. So why does TAC not present an outlay of Dogma? Not doing so would be confusing to the students, no?
October 6 at 10:16pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Because TAC wants to get past the Baltimore Catechism stage of Theology.
October 6 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg There you go denigrating Dogma to catechesis. That is sheer ignorance. Read this book Ed. Get back to basics.
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 6 at 10:17pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Because TAC is secretly plotting to use reason to overthrow the Vatican. Now that you know the horrid secret will you find a new topic to talk about?
October 6 at 10:17pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg See, no true or serious answer can be given. Good night. Consider the Cricket...
October 6 at 10:18pm · Like
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Max Summe Sheesh, somebody can't take a compliment....
October 6 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, nope
October 6 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Beitia, when a rad trad declares a pope not catholic... I safely assume the rad trad is really protesting the faith, earning the title Protestant.
The challenge is determining when the bishop/Cardinal is leading their flock astray. (I was raised in the la arch dioceses, under Mahoney.... Who brought Brown to OC.). One of Benedict's last acts was removing all public access from Mahoney.... Thus proving following the pope is best.
October 6 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's a Sede... not a trad.
October 6 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Michael, how brotherly
October 6 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley (not judging, I'm the oldest of nine)
October 6 at 10:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley (siblings are, almost by definition, pests )
October 6 at 10:28pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia my sister and I aren't really on speaking terms (I only have one) but here it is, if you're interested in YA and abuse themes Daniel:
http://www.amazon.com/Last.../dp/0738720682/ref=sr_1_1...
The Last Good Place of Lily Odilon
"We have to get to her first…" Abducted? Runaway? Murder victim? Lily Odilon—local wild child from a...
AMAZON.COM
October 6 at 11:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Neill Some miss-identify themselves.
October 6 at 10:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Edward, she's older....
October 6 at 10:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz question for TNET... rum or whiskey for a hot toddy..
October 6 at 10:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia whiskey, green tea, honey and a lemon, is what I always give to my wife
October 6 at 10:57pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I add cinnamon and clove usually...
October 6 at 10:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if it's me, I just drink the whiskey
October 6 at 11:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I don't understand YA fiction as a genre: isn't a book written for immature people who are kinda floating between childhood and maturity necessarily going to be a waste of time?
October 6 at 11:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Prayer request for a ~2yo Kiera (and family)with a cystic blockage of her pancreas, causing pancreatitis.
October 6 at 11:03pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Hot toddy is made with jameson.
October 6 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, it's mostly just 13 year old dirty
October 6 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Thanks, Michael. I don't know about this particular book, but I sometimes think YA is now what Sci-Fi was 50 years ago: there is a lot of trash, but some really good writing too, that gets shunted off to the side and labelled YA. Think of Philip K. Dick, e.g., for Sci-fi.
October 6 at 11:05pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia If you read it, let me know what you think Daniel. (my sister and I are Irish twins, so sometimes I feel like I knew where it was going on the first read.)
October 6 at 11:07pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well I accidentally used "mint tea" rather than green tea. Used lime juice (we have a lime tree, lemon tree died), cinnamon, cloves, honey and the crappiest Scotch whisky (Trader Joes Scotch Whisky) in the cupboard (only whiskey was Knob Creek, and it would be blasphemy to add that to this concoction)...here's to health
October 6 at 11:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, I've no whiskey in the house so I'll toast you with a beer
October 6 at 11:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley Oops . . . did you hear that if you drink mint tea and lime juice, it'll kill you?
October 6 at 11:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Mint-lime iced tea is a thing you know....
October 6 at 11:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz A horrid thing, but I doubt its lethality
October 6 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley O, I was thinking of it specifically in the context of a hot toddy.
October 6 at 11:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley (notice the question form to ease Thomistic scruples)
October 6 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I think if anything is going to kill me, it is the rot-gut whisky from Trader Joes....
October 6 at 11:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I've never tried the TJs whiskey. Your eliminating my curiosity....
October 6 at 11:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz This is whisky, not whiskey. I haven t tried their Bourbon or their Irish whiskey. But my understanding is that they source from various places, mostly rejects...so varying lesser quality....
October 6 at 11:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia As a snob, I only drink Islay Scotches.
October 6 at 11:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley They sell a semi-decent Speyside Scotch
October 6 at 11:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia, explains why you don't have any whisky around.
October 6 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But that, Edward, is in limited runs, limited availibility
October 6 at 11:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, there are other explanations for that...
October 6 at 11:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz You know, you would think my local TJ's would be the best stocked in the country...but it isn't.
October 6 at 11:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley Their "Rebel Yell" bourbon isn't bad.
October 6 at 11:26pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Explanation- Their headquarters is in the city I live in. So you would think.....
October 6 at 11:26pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz Rebel Yell is not a TJ brand. It is just widely distributed via TJ.
October 6 at 11:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think it's a TJ brand, there is another Rebel Yell on the market, but it's in a completely different bottle.
October 6 at 11:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley (As I remember)
October 6 at 11:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz are you talking about the bourbon they sell for something between $12.99-$16.99
October 6 at 11:28pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I mean this http://www.drinkhacker.com/.../11/rebel-yell-whiskey.jpg
James Layne used to but it at TJs all the time
DRINKHACKER.COM
October 6 at 11:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley yeah, that one.
October 6 at 11:28pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm probably wrong, actually,
October 6 at 11:29pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And dude, that is like $9 a bottle here. One thing you can't beat California on...alcohol prices...and tobacco prices too
October 6 at 11:29pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, forgot the price
October 6 at 11:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I only bought it once my senior year or so.
October 6 at 11:30pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Some of the lowest taxes, and unlike VA which had a lower state tax on cigs, cities and counties cannot impose taxes of tobacco or alcohol. (11 states have a lower state tax on alcohol, but at least most of those have cities/counties also taxing it)
Though Texas has fairly low booze tax as well, no?
October 6 at 11:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think so, at least TX is much less expensive than the DC area.
October 6 at 11:33pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'd rather be in Washington with no state income tax than have low alcohol tax.
October 6 at 11:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz How about both? Wyoming has no income tax or alcohol excise tax
October 6 at 11:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley TX has no state income tax.
October 6 at 11:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh I've been there man....
October 6 at 11:37pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Wa and tx are on par
October 6 at 11:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley TX is such a great place, Michael Beitia
October 6 at 11:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IL sucks
October 6 at 11:38pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I assume Washington means Washington State there...no one in right mind would prefer DC, which does have an income tax
October 6 at 11:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia f- Texas
October 6 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The funny thing is, DC is one of the best states in the area to buy booze.
October 6 at 11:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Funny thing...DC is not a state
October 6 at 11:39pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Yup..... 35 years on ca and now in wa.
October 6 at 11:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But yeah, it was cheaper than VA for booze
October 6 at 11:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley Ok, whatever-kinda-legal-thing-DC-is
October 6 at 11:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But more expensive for cigars and cigs
October 6 at 11:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Federal district
October 6 at 11:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Best ciagr shop near dc is in Alexandria
October 6 at 11:40pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia IL is weird. Cigs are super expensive in CHI and Cook county a little less so. Go south to Will county, reasonable
October 6 at 11:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, I've heard that DC wine stores don't have to use an importer to acquire wine, so they often have wines you can't get elsewhere.
October 6 at 11:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley I drove through Chicago once
October 6 at 11:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill and the cigar bar above it is awesome.
October 6 at 11:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley turned the wrong way down a one-way street
October 6 at 11:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^good plan
October 6 at 11:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I lived in Alexandria...they had their own outrageous local tax that made it far more expensive than California
October 6 at 11:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Stopped at an Intelligentsia coffee shop in Logan Park (?)
October 6 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Once was at a champaign bar in chi town, they also serve highlife
October 6 at 11:42pm · Like
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Edward Langley When travelling cross-country, I make sure to visit nice coffee shops whenever possible.
October 6 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Logan Square. I have a friend who works for Intelligentsia. I prefer Cafe Mustache, owned by a younger sister of a TAC alumn
October 6 at 11:42pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Denver and St. Louis have been the best so far.
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill But pizza patadisio in Alexandria is worth it.
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia St. Louis is terrible
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Kansas City is great
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill St. Louis?!?!?!?!?
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (best qua coffee shops)
October 6 at 11:43pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill St Charles across the river has a great cigar shop.
October 6 at 11:44pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Kansas city even has a decent brewery now
October 6 at 11:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley Michael Beitia, I'll try to remember that, I'll probably be heading up to Wisconsin in the next couple years for a funeral.
October 6 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Riverton Wy had a cigar/candy/book shop in one...that was awesome
October 6 at 11:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia St. Louis had some nice coffee shops that last time I was there... (2010)
October 6 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (Okay I didn't like the funeral part...)
October 6 at 11:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley The only time I drove through Kansas City, it was raining like Houston in hurricane season.
October 6 at 11:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Then you missed out.
October 6 at 11:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia excellent BBQ
October 6 at 11:45pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Max Summe knows what I'm talking abut
October 6 at 11:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Michael Beitia, God yes!
October 6 at 11:46pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia also at Cafe Mustache, here in Illinois, I was given a free shot (they have a liquor license) of Jeppson's Malort.
Google it
October 6 at 11:47pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Which coffee shops in st. Louis?
October 6 at 11:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ask Simone. I was with him
October 6 at 11:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sort of
October 6 at 11:48pm · Like
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Edward Langley Comet Coffee, I've been to and their service and coffee were fantastic.
October 6 at 11:48pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I've heard good things about Sump Coffee, I don't know what the shop is like, but their coffee is fantastic.
October 6 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I spent the first Obama election night in Chicago.... They do bars.
October 6 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia really? Should have looked me up
October 6 at 11:49pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Is spent the last bush election night at chirsisdom college they do bars too..... After the first round the owner bought everything...... We were there until 6 am
October 6 at 11:51pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I only existed on FB after I left my job.
October 6 at 11:52pm · Like
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Liz Neill She ha cancer
October 7 at 12:03am · Like
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Max Summe Joshua Kenz KC has many decent breweries now - lots of microbrews happening here...
October 7 at 12:33am · Like
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Isak Benedict This is unreal.
October 7 at 12:40am · Like
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Isak Benedict Looks like Scott reported my last photoshop of his face on a jackass. The truth hurt, I suppose.
October 7 at 12:41am · Like · 1
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Max Summe did it get pulled?
October 7 at 12:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict And apparently I am a pig butt. Mmmmm, delicious. Michael looks like you have not yet graduated from "heretic."
October 7 at 12:43am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Yes it did hahahaha
October 7 at 12:45am · Like
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Isak Benedict What should we do about this knuckledragger, Max? Michael? Any ideas? I have a few...
October 7 at 12:47am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell There are one or two good wine shops in D.C.
October 7 at 12:47am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Next time you are in D.C. (if you are), look in at MacArthur Beverages out on MacArthur Blvd. NW.
October 7 at 12:50am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ask for Phil Bernstein and ask him about German wines. Prepare to have your mind blown.
October 7 at 12:53am · Unlike · 1
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Andrew Whaley In STL Sump and Blueprint Coffee are both great. Kaldi's can really be good, but it's hit and miss. Any other cities you need advice for, ask the maestro. lol.
October 7 at 1:17am · Unlike · 3
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Pater Edmund John Ruplinger, did you see the following link? http://culbreath.wordpress.com/.../pope-st-pius-x-a.../
Pope St. Pius X: A letter in defense of Cardinal Newman
Blessed John Henry Newman - like many nuanced and...
CULBREATH.WORDPRESS.COM
October 7 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner At this point, P. Edmund and Liz Neill are the only things separating the Thread from a gentlemen's club.
October 7 at 1:47am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wait, who doesn't love cigars, coffee, and wine? Is that a male thing?
October 7 at 1:47am · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Well, I just popped in to check things out and saw that the topic has changed to connoisseurship and the ladies seem to have disappeared. But for the record, I like coffee... and wine.
October 7 at 1:50am · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell This thread does tend to repeat itself, too. I recall a similar discussion of coffee shops in St. Louis back around 10,000 ...
October 7 at 1:52am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just check back later Katherine. It might rev up again. Nothing stays the same long on tNET.
October 7 at 1:59am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell 'Night all ...
October 7 at 1:59am · Like
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Edward Langley Just purchased ten pounds of coffee to roast.
October 7 at 2:11am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ms. Gardener, as someone who has to drive down the 605 a lot...well you have a very innocent use of that term, gentlemen's club....
October 7 at 2:11am · Unlike · 6
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Edward Langley Earlier I called this a mommy-blog, I think Katherine is just getting equal here
October 7 at 2:13am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Feminism and all that.
October 7 at 2:13am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau That is just when the lactating moms get on to pass the midnight feeding times.
October 7 at 2:13am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It would be cool if there were an actual gentlemen's club with cigars and the like.... though my understanding is that the term was no cleaner in the 18th century than its us today for strip clubs. Seeing all the prurient billboards done the 605... sorry can't hear the phrase gentlemen's club innocently anymore...
October 7 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Pater Edmund -- was this Pius X article in response to Peregrine Scott calling Newman a heretic (and those of us who read him seriously are heretics by association) ?
October 7 at 2:18am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund John Ruplinger was the one bashing Newman.
October 7 at 2:20am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ah. My memory is failing me. I think Scott also took issue with Newman. But tNET is unsearchable.
October 7 at 2:20am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Not fully unsearchable...you can search your own posts
October 7 at 2:26am · Like
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Katherine Gardner @ Joshua Kenz: Oops. Well, I meant it in a Wodehousian way. Anyway, I see we are back to the status quo. (I.e. People being accused of heresy)
October 7 at 2:34am · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund Scott was actually in the pro-Newman camp.
October 7 at 2:59am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Not on the reading of scripture.
October 7 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict TNET, I'm asking a serious question here. I really need to know. I just noticed a personal message from Scott in my "Other" folder, in which I read the most myopic hypocrisy I have ever seen, unless...
Does he have some kind of mental problem that mitigates his behavior? Is he genuinely not completely responsible for the garbage he spews? Should I not be dealing with him as if he is a rational adult?
October 7 at 3:11am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is hard to tell on fb but some people wiser and more charitable than myself have suggested that.
October 7 at 3:12am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is funny -- you word it like you are asking TNET. Like asking the 8 Ball muse.
October 7 at 3:13am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Unstable is the best word I have. Anything else is just speculation as far as I know i.e.; no diagnosis -- there is gnosis again.
October 7 at 3:14am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm flabbergasted.
October 7 at 3:15am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It seems to be at times really bad and other times he is more reasonable. So there is that -- maybe bipolar?
October 7 at 3:16am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau btw, I asked the Mystery 8 Ball and it said 'no'
October 7 at 3:17am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 7 at 3:18am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Don't take it personally Isak. Really.
October 7 at 3:19am · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm all good. Just mystified.
October 7 at 3:25am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau You are a reasonable person trying to make sense out of something that is not reasonable.
October 7 at 3:26am · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't know if I'm a reasonable person. I just don't suffer fools gladly.
October 7 at 3:28am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Anyone here know what the distinction Newman makes between certainty and certitude is?
October 7 at 3:37am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I was at a lecture today and the lecturer was playing up this distinction as key to Newman's thought on the reasonableness of faith.
October 7 at 3:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Certainty is by reason; certitude is by faith, for Newman and the rest of the English speaking world. So study the exegesis of the Church's interpretation of revelation, this is the beginning of sacred theology. Not catechism. At least know this.
October 7 at 8:12am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Psalm 143
1 Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war.
2 My mercy, and my refuge: my support, and my deliverer: My protector, and I have hoped in him: who subdueth my people under me.
3 Lord, what is man, that thou art made known to him? or the son of man, that thou makest account of him?
4 Man is like to vanity: his days pass away like a shadow.
5 Lord, bow down thy heavens and descend: touch the mountains and they shall smoke.
6 Send forth lightning, and thou shalt scatter them: shoot out thy arrows, and thou shalt trouble them.
7 Put forth thy hand from on high, take me out, and deliver me from many waters: from the hand of strange children:
8 Whose mouth hath spoken vanity: and their right hand is the right hand of iniquity.
9 To thee, O God, I will sing a new canticle: on the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings I will sing praises to thee.
10 Who givest salvation to kings: who hast redeemed thy servant David from the malicious sword:
11 Deliver me, And rescue me out of the hand of strange children; whose mouth hath spoken vanity: and their right hand is the right hand of iniquity:
12 Whose sons are as new plants in their youth: Their daughters decked out, adorned round about after the similitude of a temple:
13 Their storehouses full, flowing out of this into that. Their sheep fruitful in young, abounding in their goings forth:
14 Their oxen fat. There is no breach of wall, nor passage, nor crying out in their streets.
15 They have called the people happy, that hath these things: but happy is that people whose God is the Lord.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
October 7 at 7:28am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Read this book to your kids; it will fill their hearts with good things:
https://secure.webvalence.com/ecommerce/kiosk.lasso...
Eastern Christian Publications
Perfect for parents and their children, grandparents and the grandchildren. The Christian bestiary is the original kind of devotional, and this is the first one written in centuries, and the only one ever that includes virtually every animal named in the Bible. 220 pages. Written in the manner of th…
SECURE.WEBVALENCE.COM
October 7 at 7:29am · Like
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Scott Weinberg While TAC snobs struggle with concepts of certitude, radical Islamic group torches 185 churches and kill over 2,000 Christians:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigeria-boko-haram-torch-185...
Nigeria: Boko Haram Torch 185 Churches in Captured Towns of Borno and Adamawa
Islamist terror group insurgency displaces over 100,000...
IBTIMES.CO.UK|BY JACK MOORE
October 7 at 8:10am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jody Haaf Garneau, would you like a good example of unreasonableness? Boasting of Thomistic scholarship, then not studying the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture in its entirety because you think this is catechism.
October 7 at 8:18am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe St. Louis and Denver are awesome!!! Woooo!!!
October 7 at 8:22am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And Katherine only complained about you guys because she missed me.
October 7 at 8:51am · Edited · Like · 2
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Max Summe Isak Benedict - It's clear from Scott's TAC obsession that something is not right with him.
October 7 at 9:34am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Max Summe must mean something like the maximum sum of ignorant statements.
October 7 at 9:35am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Isak was hauled up before the fb court of Mark Zuckerberg for public harrassment.
October 7 at 9:36am · Like
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Max Summe Yes Scott, you're such a victim. In no way are you responsible for anything.
October 7 at 9:37am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That's an odd statement Max, the sum of ignorance. I just find it funny (and a bit sad) how TAC alum boast of scholarship of Thomas and Aristotle, yet struggle over the most basic understanding of the Dogmas of the Faith. TAC is the father of heterodoxy.
October 7 at 9:39am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really, Scott? Really?
October 7 at 9:39am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Did you actually report Isak?
October 7 at 9:39am · Like · 2
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Max Summe Yes Scott, you are absolutely responding to a statement that just happened, and not to a conversation existing only in your head...
October 7 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Max Summe Whineberg really is a fitting monicker, isn't it?
October 7 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Max Summe A mountain of complaints....
October 7 at 9:40am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That's another odd statement, Max, the summ of all erroneous statements. And I'm not whining or complaining. I'm simply stating that the boast of TAC is odd and sad, and that TAC is generating heterodoxy, because they do not understand theology.
October 7 at 9:42am · Like
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Max Summe Scott - I think you need counselling.
October 7 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Christendom College reads more Aristotle than TAC. Plus they present theology in its proper exegesis. And they don't boast like you chest thumpers. (But you probably do not know what any of this means.)
October 7 at 9:44am · Like
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Max Summe Seriously. Not as a joke. You should go to a priest you trust and ask them to recommend a good psychologist.
October 7 at 9:44am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Max, I think you need to study what the Church teaches. If you go to TAC, you definitely need to study what the Church teaches.
October 7 at 9:44am · Like
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Max Summe If you're consciously trolling, you can bring everything back to a subject that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
But if you're actually this obsessed with TAC - you need counselling....
October 7 at 9:46am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I'm not trolling Max. You might think I am because you are a half-baked sophist, but I am not. I am just amazed at how odd it is that TACers boast of their scholarship, then attack Scott Hahn and stumble over things like the difference between certitude and certainty, and confuse Dogma with catechism. TAC is pooled ignorance, and may I guess you are in that pool?
October 7 at 9:48am · Like
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Max Summe You think TACers are one person with one set of opinions?
The obsession should be worrying to you. It is not good to carry around in one's heart so much anger.
October 7 at 9:49am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg TAC is a heterodoxy. But in the most general sense, you see, Max, when TACers as a whole make claims like they teach under the guidance of the "teaching Church," then a group of them slander people like Scott Hahn and others, then larger groups of them stumble over the most simple elements of theology, and others promote Feminism, it becomes an issue.
October 7 at 9:51am · Like
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Max Summe Obsession, Scott. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obsession
Obsession - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of obsession from the Merriam-Webster Online...
MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM
October 7 at 9:52am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Gentlemen - the man is ill, and all the credit you give him is like a game in which you crown a cretin and then become outraged when he is found to be a bad lawgiver.
TNET is a status update which wandered into a madhouse, drew the attention of an obsessive monomaniac, and rather than leaving him to the care of the nice ladies in white presumably keeping him from accidentally stabbing himself, made him the equivalent of a conversational hamster wheel to the tune of 30000 posts out of curiosity. Don't forget to remember that.
October 7 at 9:52am · Edited · Like · 4
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Max Summe Well - to be fair Tommy - Scott was gone for probably close to 10k comments, so I don't think that's really the point of this thread.
October 7 at 9:53am · Like · 4
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Max Summe It was the spark that started tNET, however....
October 7 at 9:54am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Nobody on the thread has promoted feminism, that I have noticed
October 7 at 9:54am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg TAC and its students are simply unable to account for themselves; your only response to very fair questions is to heckle, harrass, accuse... Still, you boast of your amazing scholarship, whilst stumbling over the simplest of definitions, confusing Dogma with catechism... and on and on and on... (And Samantha Cohoe never said she thought it would be a fair and good idea for TAC to introduce feminism into its curriculum? That's just a lie.)
October 7 at 9:56am · Like
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Tom Sundaram Anyways, this exists, so there.
October 7 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe That's not promoting feminism, its promoting education.
October 7 at 9:57am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No, that is promoting feminism.
October 7 at 9:58am · Like
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Max Summe Scott - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 7 at 9:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg And these two images trump what amounts to TAC's inane idolatry of the Angelic Doctor.
October 7 at 9:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nope. We read lots of stuff in seminar we don't think is true, as long as its a great book.
October 7 at 10:00am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg
October 7 at 10:00am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Feminism is an ideology, Samantha; so to advocate for its inclusion in the great books is an ideology.
October 7 at 10:01am · Like
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Scott Weinberg To advocate the great books as the essence of education is also ideology.
October 7 at 10:01am · Like
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Max Summe Scott you don't even know how to syllogize.
October 7 at 10:01am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg And if you want to advocate feminism, then advocate St. Teresa of Avila, to be fair and balanced.
October 7 at 10:02am · Like
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Max Summe Scott - again - "Psychological Projection"
October 7 at 10:03am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg FYI... I just blocked Max Summe, because he is a pest and does not know how to have a reasonable discussion.
October 7 at 10:04am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, to advocate for the inclusion of feminist ideology into the TAC curriculum is an ideological strategy. Forasmuchas TAC remains confused about what Catholic sacred theology is, and limits it to Thomas and a few others, this would only add to the heterodoxy of the college.
October 7 at 10:07am · Edited · Like
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Max Summe WOAH! I think Scott blocked me!! So honored.
October 7 at 10:10am · Like · 7
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Scott Weinberg And by the way, Thomas Sunderam, or any one else, can you tell me what the true and actual beginning of sacred theology is? Simple question. Would you honestly be able to say it is the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture in Her sacred Dogmas, and not Thomas's five proofs? And if so, then why do you not teach this? How many of these Dogmas do you include in your outstanding great books curriculum? 10? 20?
October 7 at 10:10am · Like
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Max Summe Someone should point out he blocked me b/c he can't handle the truth.
October 7 at 10:10am · Like · 2
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Max Summe Or did he leave facebook?
October 7 at 10:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Wow. Things blew up fast...again.
October 7 at 10:14am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman If feminism means treating women according to their true dignity, then count me as a feminist!
October 7 at 10:18am · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Well, if you could answer a simple question, that might justify your boast. It is a question of truth and honesty in regards to the Catholic Faith. I do not see TAC producing many ambassadors of Christ. Just a bunch or arrogant know-it-alls.
October 7 at 10:16am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Feminism does not mean that. The beginning of understanding the dignity of women is in understanding the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, because this contains an anthropology of dignity. But you and others are unable to do this. Your discussion, even of this, collapses into profanity.
October 7 at 10:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Whoa, Scott. I was just making a little joke, there.
October 7 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I will add a smiley face to make it clear.
October 7 at 10:18am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg
October 7 at 10:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I think you are right that turning to Mary is essential for understanding the dignity of women.
October 7 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Imagine, a TAC grad advocating for the inclusion of feminism into the TAC curriculum.
October 7 at 10:19am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland "Scott, I think you are right that turning to Mary is essential for understanding the dignity of women" And men, I might add.
October 7 at 10:20am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Just because you read something doesn't mean you agree with it.
October 7 at 10:21am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman And feminism is a defining ideology of our time.
October 7 at 10:22am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland TAC reads many things the tutors/students wouldn't necessarily agree with, and then goes on to help find the flaws/truth found in each work.
October 7 at 10:22am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg If turning to Mary, to understand the dignity of women and men, is essential, then why, in this discussion, did so many TAC alum -- a college which boasts of its adherence to the Church -- introduce profane physiology into a discussion on the Immaculate Conception?
October 7 at 10:22am · Like
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Catherine Ryland If you can't read things you disagree with, you can't read at all.
October 7 at 10:22am · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Conception is kind of a profane term
October 7 at 10:22am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I disagree that feminism is a defining ideology of our time.
October 7 at 10:23am · Like
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Catherine Ryland We talk about Mary's womb every time we say the Hail Mary. That's pretty incarnational.
October 7 at 10:23am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I guess that is what is so great about the Incarnation: the profane has been made sacred.
October 7 at 10:23am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg By definition, conception is not a profane term. That turns a definition on its head catherine, and that is not a reasonable statement to make.
October 7 at 10:23am · Like
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Max Summe Is Scott still on the thread? or did he just leave? I can't tell...
October 7 at 10:24am · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, that is not what is meant by the Incarnation. And it was precisely because of the Immaculate Conception that the sacred remained sacred in man.
October 7 at 10:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott is still on, Max.
October 7 at 10:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think you disagree with the Fathers, Scott.
October 7 at 10:24am · Like · 1
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Max Summe I'm a little sad I'm missing half the show.
October 7 at 10:25am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Womb and Conception are not crude physiological jests that droves of TACers were making. I think this says something; as does advocating for feminism into the curriculum, while not advocating for the inclusion of a theology of the Immaculate Conception and related Dogmas and doctrines. This wreaks of corruption and bias.
October 7 at 10:26am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think you may not know about some of the things you are talking about in some regards, in areas where you probably should, Daniel.
October 7 at 10:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I am rather offended by that.
October 7 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Max is a petulant little undergrad who still has many lessons in life to learn.
October 7 at 10:29am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Really, you are offended you are not always right, when you may be wrong? Wow.
October 7 at 10:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, it seems like you mistake the way your words might come across. What you said was, "I think you may not know about some of the things you are talking about in some regards, in areas where you probably should, Daniel."
The final clause implies fault.
October 7 at 10:31am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Does TAC teach that sacred theology begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture (Her Dogmas)? Yes or no, please.
October 7 at 10:32am · Like
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Catherine Ryland womb and conception are perfectly physiological terms, and to think otherwise is to have a disconnection with reality.
October 7 at 10:33am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg If you have graduated from TAC, Daniel, and TAC boasts wisdom, under the light of the Catholic Faith, and you define the Incarnation as the meeting of the sacred and profane, you are at fault.
October 7 at 10:33am · Like
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Catherine Ryland Profane just means pro-fano -- outside the temple.
October 7 at 10:34am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Which I think is a cool word.
October 7 at 10:34am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Conception is a theological term when speaking of the Immaculate Conception, Catherine. This does not give license to engage in profanity and obscenity.
October 7 at 10:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unfortunately for you, Scott, I am currently writing my License Thesis on how the profane has been made sacred through the Incarnation, and so I really know what I am talking about on this point. I will mention only GS 22 for you, "Ipse enim, Filius Dei, incarnatione sua cum omni homine quodammodo se univit"
And Ratzinger's commentary:
“The human nature of all men is one; Christ's taking to himself the one human nature of man is an event which affects every human being; consequently human nature in every human being is henceforward Christologically characterized.”
October 7 at 10:35am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Anyhow, I think when discussing the Immaculate conception, it is perfectly reasonable to do as Scott is suggesting and distinguish between biological conception and the meaning of conception in the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
October 7 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, the Catholic Church defines profane "as showing irreverence toward God or sacred things" as in using vulgar physiological terms to derail a public discussion on the theology of the Immaculate Conception. Obfuscation means to distort a trend or argument, as in what you are doing now, by falsely claiming that the said profanities were the words conception and womb. This is ridiculous.
October 7 at 10:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah, there you are speaking of "to profane" as a verb. I see.
October 7 at 10:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am sorry, I was confused about the difficulty.
October 7 at 10:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg As in an act of profanity, or in the use of profane words or speech.
October 7 at 10:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, I should have been more clear. My fault.
October 7 at 10:39am · Like
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Max Summe Interesting - w/o Scott - it looks like a bunch of people talking to a shared imaginary friend.
October 7 at 10:40am · Unlike · 6
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Scott Weinberg But the difficulty was rather obvious, and was not my fault at all.
October 7 at 10:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, I don't recall all the details of that part of the thread that was probably 10,000 comments before, but I do no recall anyone being intentionally irreverent.
October 7 at 10:41am · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Really? I find that surprising. A theological discussion about the Immaculate Conception is not a discussion about virginity or lack thereof in the "profane" sense of the word. But, please, let us not go there.
October 7 at 10:42am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Mary's perpetual virginity is distinct from Her Immaculate Conception, and is further, even more distinct from human physiology and sexuality. This is what amazes me. TAC students seem to approach all things from Reason, nature, natural science... HOWEVER, Theology requires assent. A Dogma like the Immaculate Conception is not first approached in this bottom up way. It must first be understood top down, from assent to... faith seeking understanding. I find TAC to be profane and juvenile, and oftentimes remiss, in its approach to much of the Faith.
October 7 at 10:54am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Here is a great quote from Gregory of Nyssa:
Since, then, there was needed a lifting up from death for the whole of our nature, He streatches forth a hand as it were to prostrate man, and stopping doens to our dead corpse He came so far within the grasp of death as to touch a state of deadness, and then in His own body to bestow on our nature the principle of resurrection, raising as He did by His power along with Himself the whole man. For since from no other source than from the concrete lump of our nature had come that flesh, which was the receptacle of the Godhead.
October 7 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think anyone would every lecture a biologist on how to do biology.
October 7 at 10:55am · Like
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Catherine Ryland The Blessed Virgin certainly has human physiology, though maybe I misunderstand your claim.
October 7 at 10:56am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Nor would one ever lecture a composer on how to write music.
October 7 at 10:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Unless, of course, one were a biologist, or a composer.
October 7 at 10:56am · Like
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Scott Weinberg "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary." (Luke 1: 26-27)
October 7 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is interesting, however, that all kinds of people feel perfectly justified in telling a theologian how to do theology. No degree required.
October 7 at 10:57am · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Gregory of Nyssa is nice; but Gregory of Nyssa is not the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation.
October 7 at 10:57am · Like
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Catherine Ryland So does Jesus. The Incarnation would be meaningless if this were not true.
October 7 at 10:57am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Are we talking about virginitas in partu again? Here's something a certain person would like: http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.co.at/.../virgin...
October 7 at 11:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Blessed Virgin Mary understood geometry also, Catherine. This does not mean that sophomoric gynecology or even geometry is the first step to understanding the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
October 7 at 10:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia wow.
October 7 at 11:00am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Not everyone on the thread was a student, so do not assume that everything said here is anything other than the words of the person saying it.
October 7 at 11:01am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Here is something for Tom and Samantha in memory of their exchange on "MRS": http://www.econsoc.hist.cam.ac.uk/.../CWPESH%20number%208...
October 7 at 11:01am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, the Church defines sacred theology as beginning with assent to the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation. I know many at TAC seem to struggle with this, perhaps because they want to do things their own way, and not many people will see their blunder because the world is full of darkness and something is seen as being better than nothing.
October 7 at 11:04am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, I am not assuming that everyone on this thread is a TAC student or alum. But the preponderance of fallacy is palpable.
October 7 at 11:04am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Katherine, if you mean me, I am not a troll. That is slander. I am asking a simple question, which is justified by your boast. Yet you do not seem to answer it. Where does sacred theology begin?
October 7 at 11:05am · Like
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Jeff Neill But I know what you refer to and you have misapplied it to tac.
October 7 at 11:06am · Like
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Tom Sundaram I fail to see how one can set the Holy Spirit, the Apostles, the Papacy and Our Lady against the fresco depicting the work of Aquinas, Dante, and multiple sainted Popes of blessed memory.
Also, I'll say it - that Pentecost depiction looks like something one finds in a CCD handbook for 4th graders from the 1950s.
October 7 at 11:06am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think not, Jeff. Does TAC understand that sacred theology begins with assent to the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation? If they do, then why do they not teach it this way, or teach what little of it they do teach in this context???????????????
October 7 at 11:07am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Tom, I fail to see how TAC can decontextualize Thomas and set him against the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation in its fullness.
October 7 at 11:08am · Like
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Joel HF "Nor would one ever lecture a composer on how to write music"--@Daniel Lendman. Well, Mrs. Gustin would!
October 7 at 11:09am · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, you claim I have misapplied something to TAC. My claim is that TAC does not teach sacred theology as beginning with the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation. In other words, it begins with Dogma. I do not see how I have misapplied anything. I have presented an accurate picture. Clearly, numerous TAC alum denigrate this fact. And several TAC barbarians have attacked me with slander. This is telling.
October 7 at 11:12am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Like all proper thought, sacred theology begins internally in relationship to the external and experience. Then through through empirical evidence of greater things about you you think of something-greater-than-which-can-be-thought and you list of superlatives in alphabet soup and stick them on the wall to see what falls down.
That is how we did it in college. (Don't let anyone know this was #secregnosis)
October 7 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill
October 7 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Another great quote from Gregory of Nyssa: Since all things in the Gospel, both deeds and words, have a sublime and heavenly meaning, and there is nothing in it which is not such, that is, which does not exhibit a complete mingling of the human with the Divine, where the utterance exerted and the deeds enacted are human but the secret sense represents the Divine, it would follow that in this particular as well as in the rest we must not regard only the one element and overlook the other; but in the fact of this death [of Christ] we must contemplate the human feature, while in the manner of it we must be anxious to find the Divine.
October 7 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, that is a false definition of sacred theology. That is not the Church's definition of sacred theology. Sacred theology, according to the Church, begins with the Church's infallible teaching on Revelation. TAC does not teach this. Own it. It confuses its students, and generates heterodoxy. I ask a simple question, in fairness, under God's bright sun, and I am attacked relentlessly by sycophantic TAC trolls and barbarians.
October 7 at 11:14am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It really is a wonder, though Joel. Why are non-theologians so happy to lecture theologians on theology?
October 7 at 11:14am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram The only one decontextualizing Aquinas here is you, Scott. You don't know me and assume I have these seven demons you need to cast out. Likewise, you assume I read Aquinas apart from the Magisterium. You really don't know me, so as far as my case and understanding of Church teaching, you are welcome to go repent in ashes and sackcloth for presumption.
October 7 at 11:15am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Tom, that is beside the point. I do not have to know you to know that TAC does not teach what the Church teaches about where sacred theology begins.
October 7 at 11:16am · Like
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Joel HF ^@Daniel Lendman, I agree there! Mrs. Gustin, though no composer, could lecture composers as she was the master of a higher science. Theology though is the highest science of all.
October 7 at 11:16am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman For those of us who are pursuing speculative matters while the world burns, I would urge you to once again take up this fine essay by Lewis:
http://bradleyggreen.com/index.php?option=com_content...
C.S. Lewis' Learning in War-Time
Bradley G. Green
BRADLEYGGREEN.COM|BY BRAD GREEN
October 7 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, that is another dodge... Are you suggesting you are a theologian? Then tell me where the Church says theology begins please.
October 7 at 11:16am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, the Vatican calls me one. Even if I am only a little theologian.
October 7 at 11:17am · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill But it is a great books program.
October 7 at 11:17am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Joel, and what are the first principles of sacred theology, please?
October 7 at 11:17am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, please tell me then, what are the first principles of sacred theology?
October 7 at 11:18am · Like
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Pater Edmund Daniel Lendman: I am perfectly fine with the "una vetula" who knows more than all the philosophers before Christ criticizing the pride of our so-called "theologians."
October 7 at 11:19am · Unlike · 5
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, I am just wondering about your statement that my claim is misapplied.
October 7 at 11:19am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Pater Edmund, can you tell us what the first principles of sacred theology are, according to the Church?
October 7 at 11:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am fine with that too, Pater Edmund. It is just an interesting phenomenon.
October 7 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Joel HF There are some terrible theologians these days. Sad to say, but true.
October 7 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And TAC does not seem to be helping that much.
October 7 at 11:21am · Edited · Like
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Katherine Gardner It's is so hard to be prudent about responding to these provocations. Sacred Theology begins with Revelation itself, Scott, with the divine Word. This is also where the education at TAC begins... developing familiarity with Scripture. Then the students begin to read the fathers who explain how to interpret the sacred texts, in particular St. Augustine. Thomas comes in only after a couple of years of theology. The five ways are not posited as the beginning. There is some reasonable debate about the way proofs from reason should be understood to serve theology... merely as external preambles, or, when understood from a perspective of Faith, as already belonging within theology. But they are certainly no SOURCE of the subject matter. No one I have ever met at TAC has claimed that reason alone is the source of sacred theology; nor incidentally have I met any Catholic at TAC denying the Immaculate Conception. I don't know that this gives me any special authority, but I do have an STM in sacred theology and a PhD in Theology, and I did write my dissertation on Mary. I think I would notice these faults if I ran into them.
October 7 at 11:21am · Like · 7
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Jeff Neill What is the difference between allowing the vernacular and the eastern rites? Before Vatican 2, was there an expectation that eastern churches would need to switch to Latin?
October 7 at 11:21am · Like
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Joel HF As a good bayesian, despite the small sample size of Christendom students present here, I will say that TAC is helping more than Christendom--w/r/t producing Theologians, that is.
October 7 at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Katherine, that is false. Sacred theology begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture, though I admire your veiled defence of TAC freshman theology. You claim it begins with just Scripture. This is protestant.
October 7 at 11:23am · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--How would the folks in Front Royal feel, if they knew how you conducted yourself in public?
October 7 at 11:22am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia actually, the infallible interpretation of Scripture is only one of three
October 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Katherine Gardner is a real theologian Scott. I would be careful lest your ignorance be manifested too greatly.
October 7 at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Joel, I am asking a question. Do you have a problem with that? Clearly TAC does not teach sacred theology in an orthodox manner.
October 7 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Clearly.
October 7 at 11:24am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick hmmm this looks familiar... I guess it proves that The Neverending Thread is a circle . . .
October 7 at 11:24am · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF ^Scott, as Peregrine and under your own name, your behavior speaks for itself. I too am asking a simple question--how would the folks in Front Royal react if they knew what you were up to?
October 7 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Katherine, sacred theology does not begin sola scriptura. It begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. That is indisputable.
October 7 at 11:25am · Like
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Katherine Gardner OK, I am done. God bless everyone here, and happy Feast of the Holy Rosary. I will say mine today for tNeters.
October 7 at 11:25am · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia more like a Mobius strip.
October 7 at 11:25am · Like
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Michael Beitia Scott, no one said sola scriptura, that's a straw man
October 7 at 11:25am · Like · 5
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Joel HF Jeff Neill--no nothing of the kind before or after VII since the Eastern rites are, you know, different rites.
October 7 at 11:25am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Joel, many people in Front Royal are my dear friends, and we are proud of our accomplishments.
October 7 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Hmmm...
October 7 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given that Katherine is a real theologian, perhaps more of us should follow her example.
October 7 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ...but no.
October 7 at 11:27am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Mr. Beitia, I asked Katherine what the beginning of sacred theology is; and she essentially articulated TACs freshman and sophomore curriculum. She stated that it begins with Scripture. She did not say it begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. That's all I have to say.
October 7 at 11:28am · Like
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Jeff Neill How can an interpretation of the word precede the word?
October 7 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia still a straw man.
October 7 at 11:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia there are three things:
Scripture
Tradition
Magisterium
October 7 at 11:28am · Like
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Scott Weinberg How is that a straw man? A TAC theologian ommitted the "Church's infallible Dogma" in her definition of the principle of sacred theology. That is a fact, and no straw man.
October 7 at 11:29am · Like
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Joel HF That's not quite what she said, now is it. She said it begins with Revelation itself, the Divine word. Which, for Catholics, is not synonymous with Sacred Scripture.
October 7 at 11:29am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick False. She said it begins with Revelation. Scripture falls under that.
October 7 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I would like to note how Katherine's response included those three.
October 7 at 11:30am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia sacred theology also includes the Church's infallible teaching on the tradition handed down from the Apostles that is not contained in Sacred Scripture.
October 7 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Maybe Scott needs to be more clear about what he is asserting?
October 7 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Lauren, Scripture IS revelation. Sacred theology begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. You TACers do not know what you are talking about.
October 7 at 11:31am · Like
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Joel HF Dogma is an expression of the Revelation, which is prior to Dogma. (I'm happy to be corrected if wrong.)
October 7 at 11:31am · Like
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Michael Beitia scripture is revelation, but revelation is not scripture
October 7 at 11:31am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I said Scripture is Revelation. I'm becoming more convinced that you can't read.
October 7 at 11:31am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Revelation includes scripture and tradition.
October 7 at 11:32am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yay!
October 7 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Thank you Daniel
October 7 at 11:32am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes Michael, revelation IS scripture. I'm out of here. You're collective inability to define the principles of the sacred science is almost unbelievable.
October 7 at 11:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. Tradition is revelation too. Look it up
October 7 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Revelation does not include Tradition. Dogma, the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture/Revelation, is part of Tradition.
October 7 at 11:33am · Like
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Róisín Grimm You're inability to spell is sadly very believable.
October 7 at 11:33am · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund http://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/.../unwritten-tradition/
Unwritten Tradition
Searching through the passages of Catholic teaching on the relation of Scripture and Tradition in the...
SANCRUCENSIS.WORDPRESS.COM
October 7 at 11:33am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--who would you listen to? Not a priest, not a theologian, not your fellow lay men? Should we get a Christendom prof in here?
October 7 at 11:34am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia thanks for doing the legwork for us Pater
October 7 at 11:34am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle, John, in the final book of the Bible. You TACers, you TAC "theologians", do not know your faith. This is basic, basic stuff.
October 7 at 11:34am · Like
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Michael Beitia the teachings of Christ to the Apostles that was not written in the Gospels is called what, exactly, Scott?
October 7 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Unwritten tradition is not the beginning of sacred theology. Written Dogma is. You guys are in error.
October 7 at 11:35am · Like
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Joel HF Let no one say that no good ever came from Weinberg's questions. Some of the are quite good, and TACers should realize that the TAC way is not the only way, and may not even be the best way (certainly not the best simpliciter) to do Theology.
October 7 at 11:45am · Edited · Like
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Róisín Grimm You're vs your is yet more basic, basic.
October 7 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick now he just contradicted himself...
October 7 at 11:35am · Like
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Scott Weinberg you guys are like demons, or a swarm of bees.
October 7 at 11:36am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would just like to point out that Katherine Gardner is an Ave Maria Theologian.
October 7 at 11:36am · Like · 5
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Lauren Ogrodnick Plus, none of the theologians here got their Doctorates from TAC . . .
October 7 at 11:36am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Look, you say above that Tradition is Revelation, when the Church teaches infallibly that Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
October 7 at 11:37am · Like
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Michael Beitia My guts are like demons, but it is probably the refried beans I made myself last night when you were calling me names.
October 7 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Róisín Grimm Ave grads are defs demonic. I may be forced to agree.
October 7 at 11:37am · Like
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Jeff Neill Written dogma is the beginning of sacred theology, not revelation ? Do you have text for this?
October 7 at 11:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "And Jesus taught them many other things..."
October 7 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Scott Hahn makes this argument
October 7 at 11:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia He's not reading or listening.
October 7 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman
October 7 at 11:38am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, above you claim revelation includes tradition. This is false. The Church teaches dei fide that revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. What school did you go to?
October 7 at 11:38am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Scott is confusing the means by which the first principles are known with the first principles themselves.
October 7 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick "And Jesus taught them many other things..."
October 7 at 11:38am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--then produce the place where the church teaches that de fide.
October 7 at 11:38am · Like
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Michael Beitia Didn't I already qualify that? The teachings of Christ to the Apostles not specifically written down in the Gospels is called what, Scott?
October 7 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Interestingly, what Lauren Ogrodnick, myself and Scott Hahn have pointed out is that Tradition comes from Jesus and the Apostles.
October 7 at 11:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, written dogma is the Church's infallible interpretation of written Scripture. And this is the beginning of sacred theology. Katherine was saying that only written Scripture is. From this false definition, it would follow that anyone's interpretation of Scripture could be the beginning of theology.
October 7 at 11:39am · Like
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Michael Beitia So you won't answer me
October 7 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But I do not have time for this. Your errors are basic, and I do not have time to teach what you should have been taught already. God bless.
October 7 at 11:40am · Like
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Michael Beitia ducking the question again
October 7 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma No she said Revelation itself was the beginning.
October 7 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma chirp, chirp chirp chirp
October 7 at 11:41am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Erik, revelation itself is not the beginning of sacred theology. The Church's infallible interpretation thereof is. She ommited this.
October 7 at 11:41am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Wrong, Scott. Wrong again. Please do make good on your promise to leave and go now.
October 7 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--do you have any magisterial support for your assertions?
October 7 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Bye Beitia. (We have no evidence or record of Christ teaching anything to the Apostles that is not included in the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. Unles you have something, but that would probably be heresy.)
October 7 at 11:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman You know you taught high school and you are a nerd when you giggle a little when you read the latin word "effere" = "to eff"
October 7 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Ok so then the actual events depicted in scripture are not prior to scripture itself?
October 7 at 11:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill Scott, where did you study question dodging, you do it so cunningly.
October 7 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, how can you dismiss Scott Hahn so blithely?
October 7 at 11:43am · Like
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Daniel Lendman And the Church.
October 7 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma It's like saying that a baseball game on TV is prior to the real event being filmed. DUH
October 7 at 11:44am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell As Newman said, correctly I think, the deep root and beginning of all sacred doctrine and belief is the Incarnate Word.
October 7 at 11:44am · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Go read the 7th letter and come back to me.
October 7 at 11:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "and he began to teach them many things." Mk. 6:34, for instance.
October 7 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Joel and Daniel. The Church teaches infallibly that revelation ended with the death of the Apostle John, and that sacred theology begins not just with this Revelation, not just with the written word of God, but with the Church's infallible interpretation of Revelation. Tradition is an ongoing development conveyed through the sacramental life and in the life of the Church.
October 7 at 11:45am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Here Scott
The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand;
October 7 at 11:45am · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, Newman is not the Church.
October 7 at 11:46am · Like
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Michael Beitia Holy CRAP!
October 7 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell No, but Newman is correct when he says these things.
October 7 at 11:46am · Like
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Michael Beitia magisterial!
October 7 at 11:46am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Whether you admit it or not.
October 7 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name."
Jn. 20:30-31\
October 7 at 11:46am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund «Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.»
October 7 at 11:47am · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia So the Council of Trent says there are both......
October 7 at 11:47am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Not really, Daniel. Your paraphrase omits the infallible truth that sacred theology begins not just with Scripture, as TAC's freshman theology begins, but with the Church's infallible interpretation thereof. This is our Tradition, and the Tradition of the Apostles in the teaching Church, as well as in our sacred theology.
October 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Bye people. God bless.
October 7 at 11:48am · Like
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Michael Beitia still ducking.
October 7 at 11:48am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (with tail between legs)^^
October 7 at 11:48am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Jn. 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
October 7 at 11:48am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ah, coffee and donuts ... now the day can really begin!
October 7 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Michael, haven't you seen "What About Bob?"
October 7 at 11:49am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "He's not gone! He's never gone!"
October 7 at 11:49am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^Dr. Leo Marvin.
October 7 at 11:50am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't get it. I have magisterial documents supporting exactly what is being put forward, and he always ignores it.
October 7 at 11:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Max Summe may be right about his recommendations.
October 7 at 11:51am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it has been remarked in the tNET eternal return of the same....
October 7 at 11:52am · Like · 5
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Erik Bootsma The dog returns to it's own vomit.
October 7 at 11:54am · Like · 4
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Erik Bootsma Donkeys prefer straw to gold.
October 7 at 11:54am · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma WAR IS THE FATHER OF ALL!
October 7 at 11:54am · Like · 4
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Joel HF DIOGENES LIVES!!!
October 7 at 11:55am · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma If only I could rub my stomach and make my hunger go away.
October 7 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I don't get why any of you are still giving Winebag the satisfaction of noticing him.
October 7 at 11:57am · Like · 3
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Róisín Grimm *Whinebag
October 7 at 11:58am · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple True. Let us not insult one of God's signs of love for us.
October 7 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng
October 7 at 12:06pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill "This is my jam" -scott
October 7 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng You people taking troll bait over and over *sigh*
October 7 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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Róisín Grimm I'm far from offended as a TACer. He does distress me as a grammar Nazi though. And also his persistent little habit of being lissomely irrational is fun to watch.
October 7 at 12:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hello, how are you... have you material heretics figured out what revelation is yet? Can you please give me your interpretation of it, so I can fit it into mine? What was this about the Church's infallible interpretation of revelation?
October 7 at 12:13pm · Like
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Brian Kemple He kind of reminds me, in a strange way, of a once-friend who joined the SSPX and eventually lost his mind. Also a little bit of a fellow who came to the Center for Thomistic Studies, who was a "Thomist" at his previous school, because that made him unique. Suddenly surrounded by Thomists, who actually know Thomas rather than just Garrigou-Lagrange's interpretation of Thomas, he became a Leibnizian, since no one else here does Leibniz.
Having a conversation with either was always really irritating, at any rate.
October 7 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma It's a funny thing about those with the hubris of error. They always assume the majority of the Church is in error, and they are not.
October 7 at 12:27pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Scott, did you read what Michael Beitia wrote above?
October 7 at 12:30pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hey guys. Looks like I missed the party.
October 7 at 12:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I was going to ask Scott if including Das Capital in the curriculum is the same as promoting communist ideology, but, whatever.
October 7 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe One time I got the tutor's wives to lead a seminar for us TAC ladies about Mulieris Dignitatem.
October 7 at 12:35pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng
October 7 at 12:35pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Did Scott leave, Samantha Cohoe?
October 7 at 12:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe? His last comment appears to have been about a half and hour ago.
October 7 at 12:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Public revelation is binding on all Christians. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle. The Church’s infallible interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred theology. (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4)
October 7 at 12:43pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Summe-- actually no, he's on again
October 7 at 12:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I would like to say to Pater Edmund that the article he linked to about the virginitas in partu stuff just rehashed our argument from 15000 comments ago, and was not conclusive
October 7 at 12:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Before, during, and after birth could merely be to reassure those who were confused about the importance of "physical intactness" and therefore thought natural childbirth would violate Mary's virginity
October 7 at 12:44pm · Like
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Joel HF @Samantha, I have thoughts about this--but I don't want to scandalize
October 7 at 12:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, Scott, what about Trent?
The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand;
October 7 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--If you actually read Dei Verbum, you'll see that Scripture and Tradition are "flowing from the same divine wellspring" and "form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church."
October 7 at 12:46pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF, the worst that could happen would be fore Scott to leave in a huff again. Sorry, did I say worst? I meant best.
October 7 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Seems like Sacred Tradition would be included in the account of revelation.
October 7 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Including Das Capital in a curriculum may in fact be the introduction of an ideology. Das capital was certainly written to promote an ideology. Introdicing feminst ideology -- as Samantha is now doing in her inappropriate conversation about the virtues of Mary (are you even Catholic, Samantha? Do you understand and hold as true the dogma of the Immaculate Conception -- into a curriculum is clearly an effort to advance feminist ideology. I am shocked this is even being discussed amongst TAC alum.
October 7 at 12:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe lol. 30,000 comments later he figures it out.
October 7 at 12:48pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ...uh, Samantha isn't Catholic.
October 7 at 12:48pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman But, she still led the charge to read Mulieris Dignitatem.
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And anyway, Pater Edmund linked to the article I was referring to, so blame him
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman A worthwhile document.
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I am just going by what the Church, as a whole, teaches infallibly. She teaches that Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle; the Church's interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred theology. This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred Tradition.
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I was Catholic then, though.
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman written by a saint.
October 7 at 12:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No Scott.
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is part of the magesterium.
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Now I see your confusion.
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--Read Dei Verbum. It doesn't say what you think it does. And the end of public revelation bit is a red herring, as that is true on all acounts.
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I do not think you should be discussing the virtues of Mary surrounding the Birth of Christ, if you do not hold to the Church's teachings about Mary with certitude. This is reasonable.
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, why not?
October 7 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, private revelation is a bit more ambiguous. And trust me, that Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle; the Church's interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred theology. This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred Tradition.
October 7 at 12:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, out of respect to the Faith of others, and because some aspects of Mary can only be known by faith, and if you do not adhere to this faith, then you cannot talk about those aspects without error, especially in this very sacred area.
October 7 at 12:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Scott--I can't cut and paste in my browser right now, but Read Dei Verbum Chapter II 7-9.
October 7 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm assuming Catholic teaching and trying to see what follows from it and what doesn't. Why can't I do that?
October 7 at 12:53pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Lines like "Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter... Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God" fairly jump out at one.
October 7 at 12:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Joel, your implication is out of context Joe. The Church teaches that Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle; the Church's interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred theology. This infallible interpretation is part of Sacred Tradition. These are Catholic truths and facts.
October 7 at 12:54pm · Like
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Michael Beitia . Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.(6
October 7 at 12:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is not true: This infallible interpretation [of Scripture] is part of Sacred Tradition.
October 7 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Because this is a discussion of sacred theology and sacred theology does not always follow in that manner.
October 7 at 12:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Trent, VII, what other magisterial documents can we bring up.....?
October 7 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "Mary, then, is a queen: but for our common consolation, be it known that she is a Queen so sweet, clement, and so ready to help us in our miseries, that the Church wills that we should salute her in this prayer under the title of Queen of Mercy." Liguori
October 7 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman This is true: This infallible interpretation [of Scripture] is part of the Magesterium.
October 7 at 12:55pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF If Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle, it ended after the last bit of Sacred Scripture was written.
October 7 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Uh oh *grabs troll bait*.
Unde sicut musica credit principia tradita sibi ab arithmetico, ita doctrina sacra credit principia revelata sibi a Deo. (ST Ia, q.1, a.2, c.)
October 7 at 12:56pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, that is true, as when a moral doctrine is pronounced, developed or codified in a Dogma, this is part of Sacred Tradition.
October 7 at 12:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Brian, very much doubt Scott reads Latin, so that is probably ineffective troll-bait
October 7 at 12:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Brian, you are the troll. I am a simple layman asking questions and defending a Catholic position.
October 7 at 12:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia defending it from no one, and misunderstanding what you defend, however
October 7 at 12:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott-- if tradition is simply the infallible interpretation of Scripture, what part of Scripture is infallibly interpreted to refer to the Immaculate Conception?
October 7 at 12:57pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger "'The greatness of kings and queens,' says Seneca, 'consists in relieving the wretched.'" ibid
October 7 at 12:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am defending a couple of things here. 1) Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle, and this is what the Church teaches. 2) Sacred theology begins with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture: this ensures truth in theology.
October 7 at 12:58pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Just as music is founded on the authority of principles taught to it by mathematics, so sacred theology is founded on principles revealed to it by God.
October 7 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, Tradition is not simply the Church's infallible interpretation. It is broader than that. But Dogma is part of Tradition.
October 7 at 12:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Then what about what is being said do you disagree with? I don't think you're reading very carefully
October 7 at 1:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Scott, 1: no one argues with that.
October 7 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Scott Weinberg--"Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church." Dei Verbum. How do you explain that? Doesn't that entail that Revelation, on the Catholic account, includes the deposits of both Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture?
October 7 at 1:00pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Samantha: Luke 1: "full of grace." There are a couple other references which implicitely support the Dogma. The Dogma is part of our Tradition. It is also a principle of sacred theology, assented to by Faith. Thomas opposed the doctrine, BTW.
October 7 at 1:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia also, the Apostles have taught it since the time of Christ. (Revelation before the death of St. John, but not explicitly written in the Bible)
October 7 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Joel: "Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church." Sacred Tradition is principally the Church's infallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture, the revealed word of God. So, together, Scripture and the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture is the beginning of sacred theology.
October 7 at 1:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no it isn't Scott. they are two separate things.
October 7 at 1:03pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Joel: "committed" to the Church means infallible.
October 7 at 1:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . "Mary, who, although a queen, is not a queen of justice, intent on justice, intent on the punishment of the wicked, but a queen of mercy, intent only on commiseration and pardoning sinners." ibid
October 7 at 1:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Michael: "form ONE sacred deposit..." not two...
October 7 at 1:04pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia are you denying that there is teaching outside of Scripture that is Apostolic?
October 7 at 1:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ONE sacred deposit is formed by Scripture and something else, therefore Scripture is not the Sacred deposit.
QED
October 7 at 1:05pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I never said it was the deposit. I said it was revelation.
October 7 at 1:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Michael, there is a lot of teaching outside of Dogma and Tradition. But I assume you mean that when the Apostles preached, what they taught was formed the early stages of our Tradition? Is this what you mean?
October 7 at 1:06pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF "But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ." DV. Again, that's about revelation, so I'm not sure how your position can be reconciled with this.
October 7 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "the kingdom of justice [Our Lord] reserved for himself, and that of mercy he yielded to Mary . . " Glories of Mary
October 7 at 1:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what Joel quoted Scott. "handed on"
October 7 at 1:08pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, Michael, this is true, I think. But I do not think it matters so much how the first Dogma came about. What matters is that it was the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture (Revelation) and part of Tradition, and a principle of sacred theology.
October 7 at 1:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, what is your problem with Scott Hahn's argument about Jesus teaching "many things," as a basis for Tradition?
October 7 at 1:08pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe Shouldn't you be reading your pre-ordered copy of "Lila," so you can tell us how it is?
October 7 at 1:09pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'm not sure I do have a problem with Hahn's argument, Daniel. What is it?
October 7 at 1:09pm · Like
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Max Summe What's going to blow everyone's mind is learning that Scott is actually an invention of a Catholic version of 4chan....
October 7 at 1:09pm · Unlike · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine-- it isn't here yet!
October 7 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, we have settled the question that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition comprise the Deopsit of Faith, or Revelation. We further see the MAgesterium as the guide in understanding the truths in the Deposit of Faith.
October 7 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Are we all agreed, then?
October 7 at 1:10pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe well...
October 7 at 1:10pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger cont. . " ordaining at the same time that all mercies that are dispensed to men should pass through the hands of Mary, to be disposed of by her at will." ibid
October 7 at 1:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, I think we are agreed.
October 7 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I feel better.
October 7 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not quite, Daniel.
October 7 at 1:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No thanks, Scott! Doesn't look like quite my cup of tea, to be honest
October 7 at 1:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ah, you're more of the cold analytical type?
October 7 at 1:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes.
October 7 at 1:12pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And I only find animals interesting qua delicious.
October 7 at 1:12pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman I would call you fiery and analytic Samantha Cohoe. Caleb is more the cold analytic.
October 7 at 1:13pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Is everyone reporting this constant ad-spamming? If you're not, you should be. Repeated posting of the same ad, an ad which has already been acknowledged, is spamming and can be reported to FB.
October 7 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe But congratulations on publication all the same.
October 7 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I wish I could be less poetic, less from and to the heart. But I cannot. I am only getting worse.
October 7 at 1:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^you can say that again
October 7 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks, Daniel. I take that as a compliment.
October 7 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Being poetic is fine, as long as a poet knows the place of poetry in the orders of doctrine.
October 7 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I meant it as one.
October 7 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I would also call you fiery and analytic, Big Angry.
October 7 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine Joliat Feil-- but where do we draw the line? Pater Edmund has linked to his own blog almost as many times.
October 7 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. There might have been a little self-affirmation in my compliment, Samantha Cohoe.
October 7 at 1:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia did they still do Trivial and Quadrivial pursuit in 06?
October 7 at 1:15pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe But no one is going to report him, because we like him.
October 7 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel: revelation is not the deposit of faith. revelation is not the church's interpretation of scripture. revelation is the sacred word of God, revealed to man through the writers of scripture. it ended with the death of the Apostle John. the deposit of the faith is the church's infallible interpretation of revelation.
October 7 at 1:16pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe Pretty sure Pater Edmund is not linking to the same post over and over, nonsensically.
October 7 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman It would be neat Scott, if anyone in the whole world said what you've just said about revelation.
October 7 at 1:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael-- Yes!! And Joel HF's team was cruelly robbed of victory!
October 7 at 1:17pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sadly...
October 7 at 1:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Poetry should be part of sacred theology. Indeed, poetry is often included in sacred theology.
October 7 at 1:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Team Dunkel for the most epic Trivial and Quadrivial pursuit win ever!
October 7 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so was mine.....
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The most corrupt and venal win!
October 7 at 1:20pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Poetry is used by Sacred Doctrine, just like every science.
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Which possibly also makes it the most epic...
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, are you saying that the Church's infallible interpretation of revelation is part of revelation? I mean, do you think God is handing down revelation to the Church when the Church promulgates a Dogma? If so, you are wrong.
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like I said, Samantha, epic.
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but when the President of the school's son in law is one of the captains, you recognize losing is probably going to come sooner than later
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw bought the tutors by handing out expensive bottles of wine like party favors
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Not every science is used in sacred theology, Daniel. Only those sciences (and arts) which are sapiential.
October 7 at 1:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No Scott, like I and others have said several times: Revelation is Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
October 7 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia fortunately, the three of us split a good fifth of single malt before the competition...
October 7 at 1:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Church's infallible interpretation of revelation is Magesterium.
October 7 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Poets have always been rawk stars, and some might even be lazy philosophers. But people idolize them and their lives. Jealous philosophers compensate by talking smack, even though most of them aren't actually philosophizing anyhow.
October 7 at 1:19pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia it covered up the sting of losing.
October 7 at 1:19pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Revelation is not Sacred Tradition either, Daniel. That is false.
October 7 at 1:20pm · Like
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Pater Edmund One could hardly begrudge Aaron Dunkel his victory thoug; that entrance was so glorious.
October 7 at 1:20pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman I don't know why you continue to espouse false and heretical teachings Scott.
October 7 at 1:20pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Tradition is ongoing. Revelation ended.
October 7 at 1:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Do you really hate the Church?
October 7 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Tradition is not ongoing..
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You misunderstand.
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We have quoted texts and docs.
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You're funny Daniel, but you should go back and learn your basics.
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Tradition is conveyed through the sacramental life of the Church and in the acts of the Magisterium, Daniel. That is not part of revelation. You are wrong.
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's finish up my Trent quote:
following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession.
October 7 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was later told by an inside source that I was considered as a team captain, but ruled out because I am a WOMAN.
October 7 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I thought you would understand magesterium at least.
October 7 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, you are falsely claiming Tradition has ended, and Revelation is ongoing.
October 7 at 1:22pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I was actually asked to be a team captain, but declined so that I could be on Joel HF's team.
October 7 at 1:22pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Dunkel Samantha, they have broken away from the women restriction
October 7 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I might have declined in order to be on Joel HF's team, too. But still.
October 7 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: As the Scripture clearly says, no woman should ever lead a Trivial Pursuit game, although they may lop off the head of an attacking enemy leader and bring it back with them to campus as a token of victory.
October 7 at 1:23pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg And Daniel is demonstrating why there are so few female theologians.
October 7 at 1:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Drunkel-- what women have they picked?
October 7 at 1:24pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I believe it was Liz Rosema
October 7 at 1:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott-- WHAT??
October 7 at 1:24pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia here we go again
October 7 at 1:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, so few *good* or *real* contemporary female theologians.
October 7 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe ^Troll feeding!
October 7 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I was on the team that lost, ahem, 5 times in turkey bowls. But the team I led to victory re Trivial Pursuit was glorious. We won by answering correctly: "the randiest book in the Bible, the Song Of Songs."
Many sought to penalize us for the use of the word randy, but the truth won out that fine evening.
October 7 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Aaron Dunkel and the piñata was one of my favorite parts
October 7 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Have to admit I pre-gamed that event a little down unto the pit...
October 7 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia we pre-gamed at Chez Whitey
October 7 at 1:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We had Nicky Kaiser. Our turkey bowl strategy was, iirc, get the ball to Nicky Kaiser.
October 7 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Daniel is trumping her theological bona fides, and at the same time claiming that God continued to reveal through the ages, and claiming that everyone agrees with this. I for one do not. Nor does the Church.
October 7 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Dunkel When Dr. Dillon reminded me that to correctly answer the Theology question required a pure spirit, we asked if he wanted Vodka
October 7 at 1:27pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe You're pathetic, Scott. Nobody said that. And your "typos" are obnoxious.
October 7 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I suppose the Magisterium should suport quotas for female theologians, so things are fair.
October 7 at 1:29pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel And thanks to the Hannah Barbera Adventures Stories from the Bible, I knew the names of those four rivers....probably the only answer that was not sophistry in some way
October 7 at 1:29pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^also obnoxious
October 7 at 1:29pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel we could report Scott's account
October 7 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Pathetic and obnoxious is claiming you are a theologian, then claiming God continued to reveal beyond the age of the last Apostle.
October 7 at 1:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where did you learn to read, Scott? Do we blame Christendom for that?
October 7 at 1:31pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson After all this time. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?
October 7 at 1:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^Matthew J. Peterson's sneaky plan to kill tNET
October 7 at 1:31pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Pathetic is trumpeting your Aristotle and Thomas scholarship, then claiming that Revelation continued past the death of the last Apostle.
October 7 at 1:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Let's all agree. Let's take a vote on how Scripture should be interpreted.
October 7 at 1:32pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I agree. Lets vote by throwing pennies into jars that are 15 feet away
October 7 at 1:33pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I don't think anyone is claiming that... but rather that not all Revelation is contained in the written Scripture, and thus is expounded through the teaching authority of the Magisterium after the death of the last Apostle.
October 7 at 1:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'm often tempted to go once more into the breach, thinking that all Scott needs is someone to lay out the problems more clearly. Then I realize that all is vanity and a striving after wind.
October 7 at 1:33pm · Like · 5
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Brian Kemple If it takes me longer than 8 months to finish my dissertation, I blame tNET.
October 7 at 1:33pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Scott. "Holy Scripture is therefore not the only theological source of the Revelation made by God to His Church. Side by side with Scripture there is tradition, side by side with the written revelation there is the oral revelation."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium
The word tradition refers sometimes to the thing (doctrine, account, or custom) transmitted from one generation to another sometimes to the organ or mode of the transmission
NEWADVENT.ORG
October 7 at 1:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no one claimed that, another strawman, Mr. can't read so good
October 7 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Just read what you are saying above. Read what Daniel wrote. She wrote that revelation is how the Church interprets revelation. Good grief!
October 7 at 1:34pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wow. You guys are on a roll this morning!
October 7 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nope Scott, you still can't read
October 7 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but maybe the ax to grind over-rides your skillz
October 7 at 1:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau So according to Scott, non-Catholics wouldn't be allowed at a "Catholic" college that studies doctrine? Quote from above targeted at Samantha: "out of respect to the Faith of others, and because some aspects of Mary can only be known by faith, and if you do not adhere to this faith, then you cannot talk about those aspects without error, especially in this very sacred area."
October 7 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And: "the Christian doctrine concerning the Bible had to be explained to the faithful themselves, and the guarantee of this doctrine demonstrated. The Bible had been committed to the care of the living magisterium. It was the Church's part to guard the Bible, to present it to the faithful in authorized editions or accurate translations, it was for her to make known the nature and value of the Divine Book by declaring what she knew regarding its inspiration and inerrancy, it was for her to supply the key by explaining why and how it had been inspired, how it contained Revelation, how the proper object of that Revelation was not purely human instruction but a religious and moral doctrine with a view to our supernatural destiny and the means to attain it, how, the Old Testament being a preparation and annunciation of the Messias and the new dispensation, there might be found beneath the husk of the letter typical meanings, figures, and prophecies"
October 7 at 1:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, that is an error.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is sad, but my kids know people on this thread by name. At least the stars like Scott
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Jody-- yep. Thanks for picking up on that.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Interpretation of Revelation is not God revealing.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott. You are the only (presumably) faithful Catholic who says so.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman You have no evidence.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jody, you should at least try to be reasonable.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No sources.
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Samantha -- what is your faith background? Why did you choose TAC?
October 7 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You don't even have friends that agree with you on this matter.
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wait -- I am just quoting you
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ah, Jody, if I tell you it will make Pater Edmund sad.
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That is not so, Daniel. You are saying that God continues to reveal to man. This is false. A false interpretation using a tertiary source.
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jody, exactly try to be reasonable
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I chose TAC because I liked the Great Bookseyness, and because I wanted to become a Catholic.
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Never said that Scott.
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 7 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Read, Scott. Read.
October 7 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Please.
October 7 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg No you are not Jody. I said that there is no point discussing sacred doctrines if you do not assent to them. You discuss so few of them at TAC.
October 7 at 1:38pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Instead of selling "Books of Beasts" maybe you should start selling scarecrows....
October 7 at 1:38pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I discuss Catholic doctrines because I want to understand them. No point to that, is there Scott?
October 7 at 1:38pm · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, you are using the Catholic Encyclopedia to claim that Revelation if being given to man by God through Church Tradition. This is false.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But IF we did discuss doctrines according to the principles of Pope Peregrino, would we then have to block the non-Catholics?
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nope.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You are wrong Scott.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is okay, to be wrong, of course.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple It's sad that my gastrointestinal system is more accepting of reason than Whinebag.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, there is no point to that because you do not assent to them. You cannot understand them without assent by faith, Samantha, Jody.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau As an aside, wouldn't it have been great to be able to "block" people in class the way you can on fb? Ah, a dream.
October 7 at 1:39pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What? So Catholic doctrine is irrational?
October 7 at 1:40pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Brian, that is a troll remark. Daniel is asserting that God continues to hand down Revelation through tradition. She must be confusing this with private revelation or something. But her claims are false.
October 7 at 1:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, it is reasonable. Catholic Dogma is reasonable; but to understand reasonably, you must first assent by supernatural grace.
October 7 at 1:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no he isn't read for the love of all that is good and Holy
October 7 at 1:41pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Scott, if you are gonna screw up gender pronouns, you may as well go all the way and just use 's/he'
October 7 at 1:41pm · Like · 6
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Scott Weinberg Jody, wouldn't it be great if we could make up our own Catholic truths?
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "shim"
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg What, is Daniel a guy?
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If the Church's teaching is reasonable, and I have reason, then I should be able to understand it using reason.
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman CCC 892:
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent”422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe not perfectly, but enough to discuss and profit from discussion
October 7 at 1:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, not if you do not assent to the principle by grace.
October 7 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman http://www.usccb.org/.../catechism-of.../epub/index.cfm...
Catechism of the Catholic Church
USCCB.ORG
October 7 at 1:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't have to assent to principles to see what follows from those principles
October 7 at 1:43pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia "Deposit of Faith" means the teachings of Jesus Christ, both in the scriptures and tradition. It is no more complex than this
October 7 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Also, you haven't answered Jody's question, Scott
October 7 at 1:44pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not sure about that last one, Samantha. I think it is impossible to discuss sacred mystery reasonably without assent by grace. You just argue like heterdoxy.
October 7 at 1:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg LUNCH TIME!!!!!!!
October 7 at 1:44pm · Like
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Michael Beitia is it going to be liquid like your breakfast (apparently) was?
October 7 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple Okay, Scott, I'll do you the courtesy of one final genuine response before I shove off and stop wasting my time.
"Divine Revelation", as a term, refers to the act whereby God gives to human beings some truth about Himself, including those means whereby we may be reconciled to Him. This truth is inexhaustible. It may forever more be made better known by the inquiries of human minds. Such inquiries are "revelations" by and to human minds. They are not capital-R Revelation.
Thus, the Magisterium may teach inexhaustibly from this initial deposit of truth. It is not a new Revelation, but a progressive revealing.
October 7 at 1:45pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Domina nostra Sacri Rosarii, ora pro nobis. Happy feast day, ya'll, especially Scott.
October 7 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Happy Lepanto day!
October 7 at 1:45pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman So, is anyone a bit disturbed by the fact that Scott suddenly started using feminine pronouns about me.
October 7 at 1:45pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia no, he's done it to me in the past
October 7 at 1:46pm · Unlike · 6
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Daniel Lendman Oh.
October 7 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia typical passive aggressive way of dismissing people, cause womyn can't think y'all
October 7 at 1:46pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Is it supposed to "get my gourd?"
October 7 at 1:46pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Or something?
October 7 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Why does he have so much bitterness?
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I showed several significant portions of The Thread to a Christendom graduate. She is appalled and ashamed of how Scott is representing her Alma Mater and would like her disgust conveyed. Club this man.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Sort of like when he started calling me Samantha Cohen.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am really trying to understand where his line of argument is coming from.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I don't know if he understands how much levity I bring to this discussion.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict He's insane and we should pray for him.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I just really don't get why he is holding this.
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia worlds greatest troll
October 7 at 1:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It isn't really Scott the man.
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like in the movie Devil.
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes I think that he is a demon come to test us.
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia last night I was "heretic, loser," let's see....
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.../media/2010/08/handswapped.jpg
BLOGCDN.COM
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Pray for the poor man, he's mentally ill.
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And Brian, you totally broke your own advice.
October 7 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple tNET is turning into a support group for survivors of conversations with Scott Weinberg.
October 7 at 1:49pm · Unlike · 8
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Michael Beitia but I don't take him seriously
October 7 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I have really been trying to take this argument seriously.
October 7 at 1:49pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia the argument isn't "him"
October 7 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I hope not.
October 7 at 1:49pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I know, Ruplinger (wow, totally misread the names... happens when the comments come too fast)... I'm ashamed. But as the famous webcomic states, "Someone is *WRONG* on the internet"
October 7 at 2:01pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia not like I'm going to seek him out to have a beer with him, however, Max can do that
October 7 at 1:50pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of mentally ill, I still want to know my stats on this thing, Edward Langley.
October 7 at 1:51pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia ^second^
October 7 at 1:51pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, I think it is sufficiently clear that Katherine Gardner's response was fitting.
October 7 at 1:55pm · Like
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Max Summe Michael Beitia - Why would I have a beer with Scott? That sounds like the worst imaginable way to waste beer....
October 7 at 1:55pm · Like · 4
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Max Summe OTOH if I had to be around him, I would probably want to drink....
October 7 at 1:56pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman We can all agree that Revelation is the source of Sacred Doctrine and whence we derive its principles.
October 7 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Revelation is Sacred Doctrine and Sacred Tradition.
October 7 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The Magisterium infallibly guides us and interprets Revelation.
October 7 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau I knew he would come back after Isak made me talk about him last night.
October 7 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Pater Edmund- I don't think I knew that! I would gladly have served on your team. Also on Samantha Cohoe's. I was shocked they picked me at all.
But be of good cheer, @samantha, they even have female valedictorians now!
October 7 at 1:58pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Isak Benedict - has he blocked you also? If not - can you tell him he's a real spoilsport for ruining the troll show?
October 7 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, I am happy with our 31,000 comments.
October 7 at 2:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But we must do more.
October 7 at 2:01pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Public Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, St. John. As the Church reflects on the sacred deposit, her understanding can deepen, but the sacred deposit itself (i.e., what God revealed to us through
His Son) does not change (Catechism, no. 66).
October 7 at 2:02pm · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple 50k or bust.
October 7 at 2:02pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Scott. Brilliantly said.
October 7 at 2:02pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Scott threw out so many contradictions. My last conversation with him went well (on metaphor). I just read parts of Aristotle and jotted random thoughts. It was a two way monologue and much less contentious. And I see where he is coming from.
October 7 at 2:10pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg So we agree? Let's end this right now.
October 7 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Yes, I threw out or disposed of the contradictions coming out of Beitia and Daniel.
October 7 at 2:03pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Max - you're closer geographically
October 7 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg See, revelation ended about 2,000 years ago.
October 7 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg But new light is being shed on revelation.
October 7 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 1900, but who is counting
October 7 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Lendman have you read Dornozo on tradition?
October 7 at 2:04pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Doronzo*
October 7 at 2:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This new light is part of our Tradition, and is infallibly expressed in the Church's Dogma.
October 7 at 2:05pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman No..
October 7 at 2:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would like to though.
October 7 at 2:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott. Let's talk about something else.
October 7 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz You should. There is some debate over "material sufficiency" of scripture
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Like, what are the best Medieval Bestiaries?
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Physiologus.
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What makes this the best?
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But that only has 12 animals.
October 7 at 2:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is based on the original from the 2nd century.
October 7 at 2:07pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Many recent theologians downplay tradition as a channel of revelation, claiming everything is "materially in scripture" Scott may be influenced by that, and like a lot of people I have run into confuse that as definitive Church doctrine...though I cannot see Scott, so I only garner what he said from arguments against him
October 7 at 2:07pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Also, it embraces the fantastical, to say something true about theology. Isn't that interesting?
October 7 at 2:07pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg God uses the fantastical also, in revelation.
October 7 at 2:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia revelation is twofold: the written teaching of Christ, and the teaching of Christ to the Apostles or tradition. Both ended with St. John the Evangelist.
October 7 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What animals does it have?
October 7 at 2:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I find this interesting, how God uses the fantastical.
October 7 at 2:08pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Joshua Kenz, Doesn't Thomas suggest something like that? On my phone or i'd look it up.
October 7 at 2:09pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Wisely have you discerned Joshua.
October 7 at 2:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It has the lion, the phoeniz, the turtledove, the leopard and a few others.
October 7 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What place did the bestiary have in medieval life?
October 7 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg God uses descriptions of fantastical animals in the Bible, to describe wisdom, virtue and something about Him.
October 7 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Was it principally devotional?
October 7 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman At least in the Latin Psalter there are references to unicorns.
October 7 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It was part of the art of Rhetoric. Preachers used fantastical descriptions of beasts to teach about the mysteries of the faith. It was like catechetical outreach.
October 7 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yes, the bestiary was the original devotional.
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Today, devotionals are all over the map. Chanelling Jesus.
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, how would these animals be used?
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But through all the ages, people love animals.
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman by a preacher?
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Bible says distinct things about animals.
October 7 at 2:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes.
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Be like the unicorn?"
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The use of animals in oration and poetry is common. Dante used so many animals.
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Does each have its own symbolic value?
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yep, like a metaphor, then an enthymeme.
October 7 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What does a Unicorn symbolize?
October 7 at 2:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Not all of them. Just some. The one I did has every animal named in the Bible. Some animals are just named, so I made stuff up. But I used the Scriptures.
October 7 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It symbolizes Christ. In medieval legendry, the unicorn could heal physically and spiritually. If you touched the horn of the unicorn, you would be healed. So, the unicorn is a symbol of the Eucharist. But in the legends, the unicorn would let itself be found only by the purest of heart. Mary is sometimes pictured with the unicorn.
October 7 at 2:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I'm doing a botanical now, for Mary.
October 7 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg And thanks for being kind.
October 7 at 5:18pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am genuinely interested.
October 7 at 2:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But God uses beasts in the Bible. He uses them for a reason. Even Jesus points to the animals. You can almost see Him holding a Sparrow in His hands, teaching.
October 7 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg God uses fantastical beasts to teach. The sea monsters, behemoth, fig faun, etc. I find this the most interesting.
October 7 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Nature teaches, and God uses nature, but He also uses the fantastical. Why is this?
October 7 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The writer of Proverbs asks us to look at animals which are "exceedingly wise."
October 7 at 2:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Fantastical descriptions of beasts are like God's poetry. God's fantastical language is His poetry. He is trying to tell us something. He is trying to help us break through this veil of nature.
October 7 at 2:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That seems true.
October 7 at 2:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg God reveals, and nature is displayed,
And we know God through everything He's made;
And though were made uniquely in His form,
We share the same creator as the worm.
October 7 at 2:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg People have always loved animals. The Saints tell us to be kind and gentle with the animals because we share the same Creator. People have always loved rhymes too.
October 7 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I wanted to try to write a bestiary in the traditional format, as a rhetoric with poetry.
October 7 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I used metaphor and enthymeme, because I had learned about those. Nobody who likes the book cares about that poetics though. That's funny.
October 7 at 2:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, I hope one day to be able to read it.
October 7 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Lizard is a good example, because the Lizard is in the Bible. The Bible says something definitive about the Lizard. But the Lizard has not been in a bestiary before. So, this was something that needed to be done. I wanted to see if people would like it. I think they do.
October 7 at 2:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am afraid that I must leave now.
October 7 at 2:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I also wanted to see if you could do a devotional with just metaphor, enthymeme and Scripture, with none of this chanelling the Spirit stuff.
October 7 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But I leave TNET in peace.
October 7 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia tNET leaves you in peace
October 7 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Joel HF Material sufficiency? Not quite, though some have claimed that in Aquinas. Congar tried to claim it was a medieval consensus. But I think that in anachronistic.
Problem is the passage quoted from Aquinas, to show he held material sufficiency, would necessarily entail formal sufficiency...it would end up being sola scriptura. Namely he says that every truth of faith contained in scripture under a spiritual sense, is stated elsewhere under the literal sense. But then if every doctrine is materially in scripture, it is in there formally.
St. Augustine has an example of something known by tradition, not scripture, namely that a heretic or pagan can validly baptise
I wrote elsewhere that there was a form of material sufficiency I agreed with, but it is far weaker than say in Congar. I am wondering if anyone here thinks my position deficient? It is not the "common view"
I hold that every doctrine is related to scripture insofar as one may always understand it as having a seminal foundation in scripture. But tradition is more than scripture, and is not merely declarative. The Canon of scripture is not revealed in scripture, nor the number of sacraments, nor that heretics and pagans can validly baptised, a truth that St. Augustine, a father many proponents of material sufficiency claim for support, explicitly states is revealed in tradition and not scripture.
These doctrines are supportable by scripture, they congeal with it, and with the light of tradition can find further support. But scripture does not provide them, needing tradition only to make clear its own interpretation. That is to relegate tradition to merely be subservient to interpreting scripture. Rather, tradition taken integrally includes scripture, and it forms on deposit of faith. As Trent defined, scripture is not the only deposit of faith or rule of faith.
And very frequently, e.g. in a certain passage that proponents like to quote of Aquinas, on the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, the rule of faith that is applied to scripture, by which he can claim such is contained in scripture implicitly, under the literal sense, is itself something given by tradition. Even there, we must have a rule of faith not given by scripture in order to understand scripture.
Now one could understand material sufficiency to include even the seminal foundations I mentioned. But I am not sure I like the word sufficient there.
In that sense, something is implicit in scripture when it logically follows from two other revealed truths, or (perhaps) a truth of revelation and a truth of reason (whether this latter could be said to be de fide is disputed, I hold that it can be if the major premise is of faith). It is also implicit when it is a truth asserted in an objectively unclear way. E.g., in the Gospel of St. John there are several places that the Greek is simply ambiguous and can be read in more than one way. Often, multiple ways are right, but the rule of faith and charity is what deems an interpretation as acceptable or not. And this can be given in tradition. So when we say Mary was full of grace, and we understand in that the Immaculate Conception, we are interpreting the words which, if we are honest, by themselves need not mean that, in light of other scripture AND tradition. And third, and this is where I depart from Yves Congar and others, a truth may be implicit in the sense of being required or presupposed by another truth, even if not through logical necessity. The valid matter for Confirmation, that a heretic may baptise someone validly. These are presupposed by the actual practices of these sacraments, which are divinely instituted. But no where does scripture say, even ambiguously, either of these. Rather, the sacrament of baptism (most clearly) and of Confirmation (less clearly) are revealed, but the details about them, matter, who may do it, etc are not in scripture, but tradition. But may be said to be in scripture insofar as "baptism" is in scripture.
Does this make sense? Sorry to hijack a bit...but the exchange with Scott resurfaced this.
October 7 at 2:38pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner OK, so I just got out of class and don't have time to read what has transpired since what I wrote, but I thought I should clarify 2 things that might lead to confusion in my hastily written answer to Scott's question about the beginning of sacred doctrine. Certainly it is through the Church that we receive the Word of God... she is its recipient and privileged interpreter. But ultimately, our knowledge of God Himself begins when God chooses to speak to man, to reveal Himself to His creatures. This is the absolute beginning of all our knowledge of Him that falls under the virtue of Faith. I did not want to deny the necessity of Tradition in handing down and interpreting this deposit, just to emphasize that the origin of all we know through Faith is God's will to speak to us. I thought this was an important point in responding to the claim that we here at TAC think reason alone is the beginning of sacred theology. What doctrine all so forth aims at doing is helping us to know what was contained in that which God spoke. We don't begin with, or even end with, these doctrines, as formulas or assertions. The Church's goal is to help us to listen to God Himself.
October 7 at 2:45pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Katherine, when you say, "ultimately, our knowledge of God Himself begins when God chooses to speak to man," this is grace, right?
October 7 at 2:47pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Second point, I was also responding to the specific accusation that TAC places the five ways at the beginning of theology for students. I was not making a veiled but an overt defense of beginning by familiarizing students with Scripture, with the Word which the Church teaches us to receive properly. It seems good to me that then the students study Augustine, who gives some introduction to how to go about understanding Scripture as a member of the Church.
October 7 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner No, this is His self-revelation beginning with Adam and Eve, and then in a new way with the Patriarchs, and finally speaking to us in Person as it were when His Word becomes man and dwells among us.
October 7 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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Katherine Gardner These gifts are graces in a broad sense, but the grace that is God dwelling in the soul is distinct from Revelation.
October 7 at 2:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Do you call God speaking to us here and now revelation?
October 7 at 2:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I mean, are you saying that Revelation is taking place today when God, as you say, speaks to us?
October 7 at 2:50pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner No, not in the sense of a new Revelation, though we might say that here and now we come into contact with God and receive the Revelation He has already given to the Church through our contact with it.
October 7 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner Each of us comes to know God's Revelation at different times, here and now. But it is the same, as Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
October 7 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So, in that second sense, we might say that God communicates to us through the Sacraments? And this is part of the continuum of sacred tradition?
October 7 at 2:52pm · Like
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Katherine Gardner Yes, I think God communicates Himself to us (gives Himself to us) in the sacraments.
October 7 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Katherine Gardner And Sacred Tradition understood as the living Church handing on what she has received, or rather inducting each of us into the living communion with Christ, does seem to include that.
October 7 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And so what is the role of the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture in our understanding our what God has revealed?
October 7 at 2:55pm · Edited · Like
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Katherine Gardner I think like a mother, she possesses the good things we need and it is her role to give them to us. She receives God's revelation, and by our membership in her we receive what was given to her.
October 7 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng
October 7 at 2:56pm · Like · 7
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Katherine Gardner But not having read what was said above, I hope entering this debate without a clear idea of what is at stake won't lead to misinterpreting what I am saying. Time for lunch with students. God bless.
October 7 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg That is a good description. And like a Mother, she never tells us anything that is not true. She helps us stay on the right path, in catechism and in natural and sacred theology (her teachings being first principles), and in faith and morals.
October 7 at 3:02pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia still won't admit it....
October 7 at 3:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Won't tell us anything that is not true?
Like a bestiary?
October 7 at 3:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Well, a bestiary often conveys theological truths, through descriptions which are literally fantastical. I think this is very compelling.
October 7 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill I've watched "river monsters".... There are many things out here I wish didn't exist.
October 7 at 3:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Very compelling isn't (always) factual.
October 7 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's exactly it. Maybe they do exist. Maybe the unicorn did exist.
October 7 at 3:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Compelling is just the delight. The theological lesson is accurate.
October 7 at 3:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Narwhals exist. The tooth from the narwhal was used to fell false stories.
The official animal mascot of Scotland is a unicorn for this reason.
A nice story but false.
October 7 at 3:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Like the unicorn. The unicorn can heal what ails you. So, try to find the unicorn by having a pure heart.
October 7 at 3:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Compelling, true and theology.
Pick two.
October 7 at 3:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I just spoke to a man who claimed unicorns were once real. I do not think they were. But they can teach a factual lesson.
October 7 at 3:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why does God write fantastically?
October 7 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I know people that believe in dragons and fairies.....
October 7 at 3:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg He made nature. Isn't this enough? Why did He just not write literally?
October 7 at 3:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg There's a dragon in Beowulf.
October 7 at 3:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't think it is deception.
October 7 at 3:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think the fantastical desciptions in the Bible are to use poetry to help us see divine things through nature.
October 7 at 3:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill It seems you like to argue for truth and fantastical falsehood.
October 7 at 3:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Maybe evil is a kind of dragon.
October 7 at 3:30pm · Like
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Jeff Neill
October 7 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Evil is nihilism - the only thing man can do without the creator.
October 7 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Maybe supernatural truth can be conveyed through fantastical descriptions of nature. Kind of like an imitation of a miracle.
October 7 at 3:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think evil is worse than that. It is like a dragon.
October 7 at 3:32pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I don't understand "imitation of a miracle"
October 7 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Like a nonexistent being.
October 7 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Miracles are like when the sun stood still during the battle of Israel. When nature is suspended, and does not act as it usually does. Then we might be able to see the supernatural in the natural. So a fantastical beast that breaths fire and wages war in heaven helps us see some supernatural truth. This account in the Book of Revelation seems to be an imitation of a supernatural event.
October 7 at 3:41pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Imagery yes, miracles, yes.... But imagery and miracles are not the same.
And no dragons.
October 7 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That seems right. Fantastical imagery may capture the miracle. Like when the imagery of the Leviathan or the Unicorn try to capture some supernatural truth. You try to find the Unicorn, but it is this truth that you are really trying to find.
October 7 at 3:44pm · Like
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Sean Robertson If what I think just happened, just happened, then Scott and Ms. Gardner agreed and TNET is over. I must be missing something.
October 7 at 3:44pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Fantastical imagery detracts from miracles and confuses them with fiction.
October 7 at 3:46pm · Like
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Adrw Lng
October 7 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg
October 7 at 3:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Is Sean missing something, Scott? Do you agree that Katherine, a TAC tutor, has correctly described and successfully defended TAC's approach to sacred theology?
October 7 at 3:49pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Sean, the agreement lasts only so long as the tentative accord holds. (not long, in my experience)
October 7 at 3:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg
October 7 at 3:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia wait for it . . . . . . .
October 7 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think Katherine has provided a good start at defining sacred theology, but not necessarily TAC's approach. She had to cut out for lunch. She did not get around to explaining the relation between dogma and sacred theology. This is key.
This is key, because if the Church's Dogmas are principles of sacred theology, and TAC does not really get into the Church's Dogmas, then this deserves further conversation.
October 7 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill
October 7 at 3:54pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Michael Beitia, scott likes my picture.
October 7 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I see the fantastical metaphor, helping us understand something true and supernatural. See how she is praying? I see he is a Christian.
October 7 at 3:59pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill This is at George slaying the dragon Error. St George represents England and error is the Catholic Church.
October 7 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I guess you can read into it if you like.
October 7 at 4:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But who canonized George?
October 7 at 4:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I am not a fan of Spensor, but shod read again.
October 7 at 4:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It still seems to be a common literary device, no matter how we interpret it.
October 7 at 4:02pm · Like
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Róisín Grimm {Am I the only one a tad perturbed, several dozen comments ago, by a certain troll's use of the feminine pronoun w/r/t Dan L, while at the same time calling him "sweet"? Eaaaaaaasy thar, Whinebag!}
October 7 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yes but literary devices reduce the significance of miracles.
October 7 at 4:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, I did not mean to offend, Roisin Grimm. I think I may know some of your ancestors.
October 7 at 4:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe #faeriequeengnosis
October 7 at 4:06pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill That was for our Anglican.
October 7 at 4:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Aw, thanks Jeffie
October 7 at 4:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, I am not sure I can think of any literary devices other than the fantastical that could describe the supernatural. Consider this one from the Book of Revelations:
"And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth."
October 7 at 4:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, are you Anglican?
October 7 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I was once in Scotland on St George's feast day..... All those in the Church of England wear there roses on their lapel and the Catholics fume in ire.
October 7 at 4:09pm · Like
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Jeff Neill 31k comments later...... Yes that is why she is not catholic
October 7 at 4:10pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Your accusations of not being a good catholic were accurate.
October 7 at 4:11pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Sometimes I think it would be a lot easier if the Lutherans or Anglicans were the Catholic Church.
October 7 at 4:12pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is this a fantastical image of a miracle?
October 7 at 4:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sometimes I think it easier if the eastern rites joined the roman.
October 7 at 4:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It is a blurry image of a blurry image.
October 7 at 4:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This has to be a fantastical image of a miracle. Surely, there was no Octopus.
October 7 at 4:14pm · Like
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Róisín Grimm My husband's ancestors? Probably definitely yes if you've ever been within 50 miles of TAC.
October 7 at 4:14pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Can we swap one of ours for a Grimm... an arranged marriage perhaps... just to even things out in the Christendom Community? Could we talk about this?
October 7 at 4:15pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If you add dragons and unicorns to Moses, does it make it better?
October 7 at 4:18pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I like the shark. There is no shark, per se, in the Bible.
October 7 at 4:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If you have Noah refusing passage to dinosaurs and unicorns and dragons is it better?
October 7 at 4:19pm · Like
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Róisín Grimm I can one up ya. My husband is a Grimm whose mother was a Ford. Guess what esteemed small Catholic college in VA has a president whose wife is, also, a Ford?
October 7 at 4:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It depends, were all the dinosaurs kosher?
October 7 at 4:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill
October 7 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
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Róisín Grimm Aforementioned president of small Catholic college also happens to be my husband's godfather. These connections run deep.
October 7 at 4:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Would he share Scott's accusations of your education?
October 7 at 4:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I bow down before you, Roisin Grimm. Your husband's godfather and his wife saved Christendom College. It is the beginning of great Catholic reign.
October 7 at 4:22pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No he would not. He is too prudent, but he knows what I'm talking about.
October 7 at 4:22pm · Like
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Róisín Grimm Don't you dare tempt me to like you, you Whinebag! Yes. They are great people. And hold TAC in very high regard.
October 7 at 4:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg My sincere apologies, Roisin, I did not mean to tempt you. It's just this natural likability that I have. I cannot help it.
October 7 at 5:17pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Exchanges of pleasantries are clearly a sign of the end.
October 7 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Apply and spread word, people:
"Desired areas of specialization: medieval philosophy with an emphasis on Aquinas, moral philosophy and related fields. Areas of competence should include the field of applied ethics, such as in the medical or business areas. The candidate should be well grounded in Western philosophy and the Catholic intellectual tradition. Commitment to and demonstrated success in undergraduate teaching and scholarship is required. A record of publication will be an asset. Support for the University’s Catholic mission is expected. There may be opportunities to teach courses in the University’s Pell Honors Program. The applicant should be willing to advise undergraduate students, serve on various university committees, and contribute to student learning assessment."
http://salve.interviewexchange.com/jobofferdetails.jsp...
Employment Opportunities | Salve Regina University
Open Positions Administrative and Staff Positions Faculty...
SALVE.EDU
October 7 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng An hour without comments? Get back to work people!
October 7 at 6:07pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I'll apply after I defend my proposal. Gots to have that official ABD status.
October 7 at 6:08pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz BTW, wrt to earlier, material sufficiency of scripture and all that jazz
What does “the sufficiency of Scripture” actually mean? Even Geiselmann, as a Catholic theologian, cannot get beyond having to hold fast to Catholic dogmas, and none of them can be obtained by means of sola scriptura—not the early Christian dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis consensus, and still less the new ones of 1854 and 1950. What kind of meaning does talk about “the sufficiency of Scripture” still have, then? Does it not threaten to become a dangerous self-deception, with which we deceive ourselves, first of all, and then others (or perhaps do not in fact deceive them!)? In order to go on maintaining that Scripture contains all revealed truth, on one hand, and, on the other, to maintain that the 1950 dogma is a revealed truth, we would have at least to take refuge in a notion of “sufficiency” so broadly conceived that the word “sufficiency” would lose any serious meaning.
This, however, opens up the second and really decisive question: In concerning ourselves with the idea of the “sufficiency” of Scripture, have we grasped the real problem involved in the concept of tradition at all, or are we lingering over a relatively superficial symptom of an issue that in itself lies much deeper? The introductory reflections from which we started should have made it clear that the answer to this question must clearly be Yes. The question of the sufficiency of Scripture is only a secondary problem within the framework of the far more fundamental decision that we glimpsed a little while ago in the concepts of abusus and auctoritas, and that thus concerns the relationship between the authority of the Church and the authority of Holy Scripture; everything else depends on how we understand that. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, " God’s Word, Scripture-Tradition-Office", (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2005), pg. 50.)
October 7 at 6:12pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Scott's message and my reply last night. The man is so blind he's like Polyphemos AFTER Odysseus put out his eye.
October 7 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm revamping my theory about Scott. I don't think he's mentally ill. I think he's vicious. J'accuse.
October 7 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Isak Benedict - he very clearly is mentally - or morally - ill.
My urging him to get counselling and pointing out his psychological disorders resulted in him blocking me.
Most psychosis is an attempt to escape from an unpleasant reality. As I represented that reality calling him back - he pushed me out of his sphere of awareness....
Another clear sign he's a madman.
October 7 at 6:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Many of his comments on this thread qualify as hate speech.
October 7 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Perhaps it would be healthier, too, not to obsess over Scott's obsession?
October 7 at 6:34pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz And to do something productive
October 7 at 6:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Like watching reruns of Bewitched on Hulu (ok I have my guilty pleasures too)
October 7 at 6:35pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe If we wanted to be productive, Joshua - we wouldn't be on tNET.
October 7 at 6:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The man defies productive. Every conversation he enters is promptly FUBAR.
October 7 at 6:35pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Hey, I have tried and make TNET productive for me! Throwing seriously theological and philosophical questions out there...and the debate over Haikus wasn't all bad either, though I stayed on the sidelines
October 7 at 6:36pm · Like · 6
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--would you state a little more clearly what the "more fundamental issue" alluded to above is?
October 7 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Likewise Joshua, I have enjoyed many a conversation here, whether involved or not. I also feel I am getting to know older wiser graduates from my college a little bit. It's humbling and exhilarating, and I don't appreciate His Excellency Scott Schitt coming in here and being such an assbag, to use Michael's colorful appellation.
October 7 at 6:40pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think any fair-minded person can judge who might be mentally ill or vicious.
October 7 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The conversation eddied around the pre-amblesof the faith. It seems to me the pre-ambles include more than Thomas's five proofs, and may include Anselm's proslogion or parts of it. The most interesting in my estimation is his imagining that God is bigger than anything he can imagine, and then the conclusion that God in reality is bigger than God in his imagination...
October 7 at 6:45pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg ... but these pre-ambles are conslusions of natural theology; and some are also principles of sacred theology; but these are not all of those principles; they are not those supernatural principles of sacred theology which may be known with certitude by faith alone -- the Trinity; the Immaculate Conception -- assented to, and which seem to play a special role as the principles of sacred theology. First, they are promulgated as Dogma. They are an illumination of that same Revelation that ended about 2,000 years ago. And if TAC does not posit these, the context of the preambles is distorted, and we can get into rationalistic heterodoxy.
October 7 at 6:53pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Speaking of our haiku talk, I think out of deference to Michael Beitia's status as lead TNETer, all TNET haikus should end with "autumnal jollies".
October 7 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Example:
Eternal return
TNET demands attention
autumnal jollies
October 7 at 6:57pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger What Sean said.
October 7 at 7:01pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Sean - as in:
The Peregrine should
really be kicked right in the
autumnal jollies
October 7 at 7:00pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Am I doing that right?
October 7 at 7:00pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Bahaha, you have now ruined that phrase for everyone.
October 7 at 7:01pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Are you blocked, Isak?
October 7 at 7:02pm · Like
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Sean Robertson But yes.
October 7 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Isak, you may be able to answer this. Is there any rhyme or reason to pronouncing the "-ed" suffix? Or is it completely up to the poet to use whichever fits his meter?
October 7 at 7:03pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson e.g. formed vs. formèd
October 7 at 7:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No John he randomly blocks/unblocks me.
October 7 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Isak, are the hides giving a rash?
October 7 at 7:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Was my question about the pre-ambles hate speech?
October 7 at 7:06pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think he is referring to a broader treatment of revelation and tradition. Ratzinger continues-
"To make further progress, it will therefore be necessary to deepen our approach, not being preoccupied with such superficial implications as the sufficiency or insufficiency of Scripture, but presenting as a whole the overall problem of the mode of presence of the revealed word among the faithful. Then we can see that we have to reach beyond the positive sources of Scripture and tradition, to their inner source: the revelation, the living word of God, from which Scripture and tradition both spring and without which neither can be grasped in the importance they have for faith. The question of “Scripture and tradition” remains insoluble so long as it is not expanded to a question of “revelation and tradition” and thereby inserted into the larger context in which it belongs. In what follows, therefore, I should like to unfold the concept of tradition in a positive sense, on the basis of its inner impulse, in thesis form, without going into the details of possible arguments. I do this in the hope that some part of an answer to the Reformers’ question may be found in it and that the whole may thus prove to be a part of a conversation, the necessity of which is being recognized with increasing clarity on both sides."
He goes on to distinguish scripture from revelation. He seems to want to center the question in intergral tradition
The relevant sections are available on google books. http://books.google.com/books?id=xFBX9DuWxIkC...
October 7 at 7:08pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think facebook may have forced Isak to take down some photos because they violated their rules of harrassment. Live and learn. No hard feelings.
October 7 at 7:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To Sean's question, it depends on comtemporary usage (with some poetic license). Compare painted and formed.
October 7 at 7:14pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua, does he define "inner source" or "inner impulse"? [Can't access document.]
October 7 at 7:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<not the early Christian dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis consensus>> Mr. Kenz, what are these dogmas of the former quinquesaecularis consensus of which the Cardinal spoke?
October 7 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have never heard of such things.
October 7 at 7:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Not exactly. He does make the claim that you can have Scripture without revelation, viz. when a man without faith intellectually understands scripture, it is not formally, in that context, revelation. Revelation requires an inner act of faith, a locus in a living person.
As a reality based on God, it has an impulse to God. As a reality that happens in a man of faith it extends beyond the "mediating fact of Scripture"
He argues that, regardless of whether Scripture is the sole material source, sola scriptura can never be admitted as a principle in Christianity because of "this incongruence between Scripture and Revelation." "Scripture is not Revelation, but in any case, only a part of this greater reality." (ph 53)
I still am not clear what he means by inner impulse, but it has something to do with the greater reality of Revelation, and since Scripture is only part of that, it seems to me that Tradition fits in there somewhere.
October 7 at 7:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Also, what is "this incongruence between Scripture and Revelation?" Does he mean something more than that they aren't co-extensive?
October 7 at 7:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--being a hipster, using European quotation marks
October 7 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Or more precisely, being a hip chick?
October 7 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Joel Hurt Feil! You take that back!
October 7 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Oh that's right. Samantha thought I was comparing her to Eliot's lose woman, then to a hip chick, then to the noble Catholic Proverbs lady, then denying it all.
October 7 at 7:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Though to be fair, those aren't universal in Europe. German quotes ,,like this."
October 7 at 7:47pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz He means how one can have scripture without it being revelation (namely, he lacks faith). He says revelation "only arrives" when "its inner reality has itself become effective after the manner of faith."
October 7 at 7:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's right, Scott.
October 7 at 7:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe what about the quinquesaecularis consensus? What's that?
October 7 at 7:50pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The consensus of the first 5 centuries...basially Chaledonian Christianity
October 7 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And he doesn't think that derives from Scripture?
October 7 at 7:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe I'll add some question marks to make that more emphatic.
October 7 at 7:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ???
October 7 at 7:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ??????
October 7 at 7:54pm · Like
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Joel HF Here's Ratzinger on his experiences w/ his professors who thought the assumption wasn't in tradition b/c it first comes up in the fifth century:
"This argument [that the assumption is not in the apostolic tradition] is compelling if you understand “tradition” strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and texts. This was the position that
our teachers represented. But if you conceive of “tradition” as the
living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of
truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still
not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn
16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it had not caught sight
of previously and yet was already handed down in the original Word."
October 7 at 7:57pm · Like
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Joel HF This view is problematic to my mind--not that I am qualified to judge it to reject or accept it. But I would rather hold with Newman that "there is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have
answered.”
October 7 at 8:00pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^doesn't sound like "tradition" in any plain sense of the word I am aware of.
October 7 at 8:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, etymologically.
October 7 at 8:00pm · Like
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Joel HF Which one, Ratzinger?
October 7 at 8:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds like by "tradition" he means some kind of process of guidance by the Holy Spirit. But then I don't see how that relates to tradition, actually.
October 7 at 8:01pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, Ratzinger
October 7 at 8:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Right, that's my problem with it. Obviously, tradition is, in some sense, alive in so far as it must always be handed down. And if one is Catholic, and even if one isn't perhaps, tradition must be guided by the Holy Ghost. But Ratzinger's definition seems like it would be easily severed from the whole "handed down" aspect.
October 7 at 8:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It matters, also, how the new relates to the old, right? If what's being "remembered" is something contained in the literal tradition, then maybe I can see his point.
October 7 at 8:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The quotes around "tradition" and "remembering" in the Ratzinger text seem to make your point, Joel
October 7 at 8:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I guess I would be interested in an example. Personally, I don't see how the Assumption could not have been grasped previously. Wouldn't it be pretty easy to grasp? I mean, surely there would have been early eyewitnesses to the fact.
October 7 at 8:06pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It isn't a doctrine like the Trinity that requires careful working out, especially by negation of false assertions about what Scripture could mean
October 7 at 8:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Where did Mr. Kenz go?
October 7 at 8:09pm · Like
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Joel HF There is some (genuine) evidence (and loads of spurious evidence) in the fathers.
October 7 at 8:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson How could any tradition be simply handing down fixed formulas? I'm not sure that is even possible, actually. People think on things. And they unfold.
Like, say, our ideas about slavery or marriage.
With the Assumption, you have something that was handed down but not seen as significant theologically right away, according to the Catholic point of view, so I think his lines here make sense.
October 7 at 8:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Oatmeal and wine
do not go well together
autumnal jollies
October 7 at 8:12pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I'm not saying it is the handing down of fixed formulas. I'm just saying that I have difficulty with Ratzinger's position--but with the caveat that I'm not really qualified to form any real judgment on the matter.
October 7 at 8:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So part of it is indeed the handing down of the fixed, but part of it is the continual search for truth.
October 7 at 8:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, Matthew J. Peterson, if the claim is that it was actually part of Tradition, but not considered important, then that's easy. That doesn't seem to be what Ratzinger is saying, though
October 7 at 8:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ratzinger (in this decontextualized paragraph) seems to be taking for granted that it wasn't literally "handed down" as a teaching
October 7 at 8:13pm · Like
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Joel HF "Remembering" long after the fact under inspiration of the Holy Spirit is different from realizing implications in some long accepted & known truth.
October 7 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Sorry for the interruption of the legitimately interesting conversation. I'm still enjoying TNET haikuing.
October 7 at 8:13pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well in all honestly, I am not going to pretend to be an expert on Ratzinger here.... I just remembered him having an issue with "sufficiency" and I thought, as far as that goes, he stated it well there.
In all honestly, this is one of the messier areas in understanding Ratzinger. He and Rahner co-authored some pieces here early on. And it seems that he has developed his views in a more deeply Catholic way, without really losing the context of his earlier treatments.
He does define Tradition as "that part of revelation that goes above and beyond scripture and cannot be comprehended within a code of formulas."
What that means, I don't know. As far as the quinquesaecularis doctrines...well I would have to go back and reread earlier on in the book and see what exactly he has in mind.
October 7 at 8:14pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I am a supported of tNET haikuing, Sean
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Matthew J. Peterson And you can take any number of doctrines and see that happening, Protestant or Catholic. I don't see how one could be Christian and not espouse something like what Ratzinger is saying.
What previously was not grasped - what was not seen before but is now. Even the scholar goes to the treasure house and brings forth that which is needed at the time, as the good book says.
October 7 at 8:15pm · Like
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Joel HF This is the difficulty, right? This is the strength of John Henry Cardinal Newman's quote that I quoted above--ere is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered.”
October 7 at 8:15pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, Matthew J. Peterson. I do not hold anything theological that I don't see either explicitly in Scripture or following from principles in Scripture
October 7 at 8:16pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Newman's quote is the one that seems problematic. The apostles disagreed about all manner of things, and asking them about, say, the trinity...I mean, what kind of answer do you think you'd get?
October 7 at 8:16pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Facebook's formatting
is bad for TNET haikus
autumnal jollies
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--Really?
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Where does Newman say that? That position, wrt to the Apostle's, I though was one he rejected...
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Joel, what is the source of that Newman quote? Is it EDCD?
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You actually think the apostles would be able to give you all the stuff you need - containing within them clearly what centuries of the greatest minds in Christendom fought over and hashed out?
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, I think Matthew J. Peterson has a solid point about the apostles and the Trinity
October 7 at 8:17pm · Like
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Joel HF I didn't want to admit this, but I've been stealing from Pater Edmund's blog. It gets linked to too often around here already.
October 7 at 8:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm sure if you walked the apostles through it, they'd get it eventually
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Joel HF I took it from a quote in one of the comments made by a rather dyspeptic Scottish Theology professor.
October 7 at 8:18pm · Like
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Brian Kemple The unfolding of tradition is not unlike the kinds of books that I do believe yousen (that's a plural of "you") didst all read at TAC--that you may find in them continually greater depth than first realized. Just as a teacher (or tutor) might hand you a book with a certain set of conceptions about its meaning, but you might find something more than he did, so too the Church may in its current teachers find things in what was first handed down that the Fathers themselves did not see.
October 7 at 8:19pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--I don't think they would have the scholastic terminology, no. But would they be able to tell you about the trinity? Yes.
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: in scripture you see this in the way Christ treats the OT law. And the way in which very serious theological matters develop from the very start throughout Acts and onwards.
October 7 at 8:19pm · Like
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Joel HF It is scandalous to think otherwise.
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Samantha Cohoe Brian Kemple-- that is the understanding of Tradition I was sold on originally. I don't see how it works in the case of things like the Assumption and Immaculate Conception and such
October 7 at 8:20pm · Like
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Joel HF And Matthew J. Peterson--obviously the question would need to be asked after Pentecost.
October 7 at 8:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sure, I'm ok with some understanding of the development of doctrine.
October 7 at 8:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe seeing what follows from what has been given
October 7 at 8:21pm · Like
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Joel HF And this view doesn't entail the Apostle knowing the answer explicitly before the question was asked.
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, like I said, you'd probably have to walk them through it.
October 7 at 8:22pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well they may have had an understanding that God was one and three (though expressing that cogently...seems to require "person" "relation" etc to be worked out, and I am not sure that had that).
And then the implications of that...e.g. that each Person IS the Divine nature, e.g., I am not sure they would have all that. Except they would in a virtual way, in the sense that in their preaching, part of which was written down as Scripture, the entirety of the deposit of faith was contained. But I think that it wasn't articulated in their own heads with the precision of later centuries
October 7 at 8:23pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And that is just ONE example.
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Brian Kemple While I can't give a very thoroughgoing answer, not being terribly familiar with the issue, I would say that the Immaculate Conception, for instance, seems to follow from the address of Mary as being "full of grace", and likely with some less clarity from other sources, inasmuch as grace is something the understanding of which likewise develops over the centuries.
October 7 at 8:24pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: In those cases, if any sense is to be made of them, it is that specific circumstances and developments bring about an examination or reexamination of parts of the tradition. What wasn't necessarily noticed before, or grasped in its fullness, etc.
October 7 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson "The Apostles did not merely know the Apostles Creed; what knowledge could be more jejune, unless the meaning of each separate word of it was known in fullness? They must know all and more than all about the word ‘Son of God,’ which the Church has enunciated since their time. And so of every article, & portion of an article. What then is meant by the Depositum? is it a list of articles that can be numbered? no, it is a large philosophy; all parts of which are connected together, & in a certain sense correlative together, so that he who really knows one part, may be said to know all, as ex pede Herculem. Thus the Apostles had the fullness of revealed knowledge, a fullness which they could as little realize to themselves, as the human mind, as such, can have all its thoughts present before it at once. They are elicited according to the occasion. A man of genius cannot go about with his genius in his hand: in an Apostle’s mind great part of his knowledge is from the nature of the case latent or implicit; and taking two Apostles, St Paul & St John, according to their respective circumstances, they either may teach the same thing in common, or again what is explicit in St Paul might be latent in St John and what is explicit in St John may be latent in St Paul.
But how could such a knowledge, partly explicit partly implicit, and varying day by day as to what was the one and what the other, be transmitted to the Church after them? Thus: I believe the Creed (i.e. the Deposit, I say Creed as more intelligible, since it consists of Articles) was delivered to the Church with the gift of knowing its true and full meaning. A Divine philosophy is committed to her keeping: not a number of formulas such as a modern pedantic theologian may make theology to consist in, but a system of thought, sui generis in such sense that a mind that was possessed of it, that is, the Church’s mind, could definitely & unequivocally say whether this part of it, as traditionally expressed, meant this or that, and whether this or that was agreeable to, or inconsistent with it in whole or in part. I wish to hold that there is nothing which the Church has defined or shall define but what an Apostle, if asked, would have been fully able to answer and would have answered, as the Church has answered, the one answering by inspiration, the other from its gift of infallibility; and that the Church never will be able to answer, or has been able to answer, what the Apostle could not answer, e.g. whether the earth is stationary or not, or whether a republic is or is not better than a monarchy. The differences between them being that an Apostle could answer questions at once, but the Church answers them intermittently, in times & seasons, often delaying and postponing, according as she is guided by her Divine Instructor; and secondly and on the other hand, that the Church does in fact make answers which the Apostles did not make, and in one sense did not know, though they would have known them, i.e. made present to their consciousness, and made those answers, had the questions been asked." - Newman (“Letter to Flanagan,” in Theological Papers, p. 158)
October 7 at 8:25pm · Like · 5
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Sean Robertson ^Found the quote Joel was talking about.
October 7 at 8:25pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson The very end makes me think that he's saying that the Apostle would have been divinely inspired to answer any question on the articles of faith, when asked.
October 7 at 8:28pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, I must confess, I'm not sure what you are talking about. In the context of the assumption, if we are assuming that it was "absent from the fathers" (at least, prior to the 5th century or so), how is this dogma latent anywhere or merely unnoticed? What does it mean to "remember" it?
October 7 at 8:29pm · Unlike · 3
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Joshua Kenz Ratzinger is big on seeing tradition here as living. I think insofar as there may be constitutive tradition (wherein, while there are seminal basis in scripture, some doctrines are given in unwritten Tradition in a way not demanded with logical necessity from scripture alone), as well as being clarifying and confirming what is in scripture, then we do have things constantly being affirmed and handed down, and witnessed to by the Fathers, liturgy and the sensus fidelium.
But in its "handing down" it gets debated over, articulated more, etc. So that tradition is both "handed down" and "living and developing" not as adding to it some truth not already revealed, not as continuous revelation (which is what some foolhardy people have accused Ratzinger of meaning), but as the same revelation being expressed more and more explicitly through the actual life of faith.
The incongruity Ratzinger mentions between scripture and revelation then, it makes sense what he says. Regardless of the material sufficiency (which he sort of doubted earlier in the book), there is a role of tradition as a living thing. Revelation is only formally revelation when it is taken in the act of faith. Only then is it received as from the first truth.
We adhere to this "first truth", i.e. God, infallibly in faith, but in our life of faith we understand more and more the depths of what He has handed down. That is is Tradition (integrally) as including scripture, and is lived Tradition as part of the Church, as including constitutive Tradition, which explains, clarifies and deepens our knowledge of revelation, and is added to through the shared living of the Faith, by its greater articulation not by new revelation.
Does that all make ense
October 7 at 8:32pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--why would it need to be articulated in their heads with all the precision of later centuries? The doctrine of the assumption is particularly a strange one to have this view about. The assumption doesn't require a great deal of philosophical complexity. Also, John Damascne--who's a late father, but a father still, and thus a witness to the unwritten apostolic tradition--explicitly affirms the tradition as coming from the apostles themselves.
October 7 at 8:34pm · Unlike · 5
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Sean Robertson Sounds like Newman is saying that the Apostles knew (by infusion, I assume) all of Revelation tacitly, but that it all may not have been present to their consciousness. This presence to consciousness would have occurred when asked about a particular article of faith. Or something along those lines.
October 7 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^I half stole that reading from a website.
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Joshua Kenz I agree. I do think the Assumption shows that constitutive Tradition is more than just clarifying/explaining what is already in scripture, and I thought that was more or less Ratzinger's point in that example. But after dissing on the material sufficiency guys he goes onto his own project of making the question less irrelevant...and that is where the living tradition, life of faith, things come in.
October 7 at 8:37pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson To remember it - because as you seem to say, it was forgotten. Latent, because, presumably, it is conformable and complementary to what has been said previously, and grows out of it. Obviously, thought about Mary has developed over time.
October 7 at 8:38pm · Like
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Sean Robertson "[If the Apostle Paul had been asked] whether or not our Lady had the grace of the Spirit anticipating all sin whatever, including Adam’s imputed sin, I think he would have answered in the affirmative. If he never was asked the question, I should say he had in his mind the decision in 1854 in confusio or implicité.” - Newman (“Letter to Flanagan,” p. 159)
October 7 at 8:38pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Yeah, that sounds like a new public revelation to me, Matthew J. Peterson. I'm going to say that if one asked the Apostles (after the right date) if Mary had been assumed or not, at least one, if not all, would have been able to answer the question in the affirmative.
October 7 at 8:39pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, thought about every doctrine has developed over time. The danger is making development into new revelation.
October 7 at 8:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well certainly the ones that lived to see her passing from this life would have answered affirmatively!
October 7 at 8:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's the strange thing about this view as applied to the Assumption, as Joel HF and I are saying
October 7 at 8:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz So now I know...all I need to get TNET rolling is to quote difficult passages from Ratzinger!
October 7 at 8:43pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF From The Catholic Encyclopedia, quoting St. John Damascene: "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven."
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Samantha Cohoe ^^Joel-- that's very interesting, I had never heard that.
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Joel HF Also, as I said earlier, something like what Ratzinger is saying must be true, w/r/t it being a living tradition, etc.
October 7 at 8:44pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So, is that the first reference to the Assumption that we have? The fifth century one Ratzinger referred to (implicitly)?
October 7 at 8:45pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't get it. If it happened, it happened and was part of tradition but sorta never became a big thing even though it is obviously mentioned more than once a few centuries on in writing. Then it gets remembered and picked up and tied into all kinds of latent theology. Where's the strangeness?
October 7 at 8:45pm · Like
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Joel HF Remembered from where? From what source?
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Joshua Kenz Perhaps the articulation with regard to the Assumption is not that it happened (pretty black and white) but its relationship to the rest of what the Apostles has handed down? Ratzinger mentioned two things, I was focusing on the 2nd. The first was revelation has as its object God, both as beginning and end? Maybe the articulation is understanding it in a Christocentric fashion, understanding its import, which required other doctrines to be articulated first?
October 7 at 8:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think the "obviously mentioned more than once a few centuries on in writing" part of Matthew J. Peterson's statement is disputed
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Joshua Kenz Dinnertime! Ciao
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--I assume not, because he would have been writing in the 7th century.
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Samantha Cohoe Mm, but the Council was in the fifth century, so if the 7th century report of the 5th century witness is taken to be reliable, you might think you had 5th century witness
October 7 at 8:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, it is mentioned a few times. First, there is what isn't mentioned. This is a fairly normal apologetic account:
"First of all, while it is true that the early Christian writers do not explicitly mention the Assumption of Mary, there is an ancient and curious silence about her bodily remains that cries out for an explanation. Sometimes, as we say, "silence" can be "deafening." Karl Keating of Catholic Answers writes:
'We know that after the crucifixion Mary was cared for by the apostle John (Jn 19:26-27). Early Christian writings say John went to live at Ephesus and that Mary accompanied him. There is some dispute about where she ended her life, perhaps there, perhaps back at Jerusalem. Neither of these cities nor any other claimed her remains, although there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. Why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there were no bones to claim, and people knew it.
Remember, in the early Christian centuries, relics of saints were jealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Colosseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved; there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave up their lives for the Faith [for example, the bones of St. Peter and St. Paul were widely known to be preserved in Rome, and the sepulcher of David and the tomb of St. John the Baptist are both mentioned in Scripture]. Yet here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints ... but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.'"
October 7 at 8:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And:
"Explicit mention of the Assumption of Mary begins to appear in highly embellished legendary accounts in the 4th century. We have a slightly more sober account of the event given by St. John Damascene in a copy of a letter he preserved from a 5th century Patriarch of Jerusalem named Juvenalius to the Byzantine Empress Pulcheria. The Empress had apparently asked for relics of the most Holy Virgin Mary. Patriarch Juvenalius replied that, in accordance with ancient tradition, the body of the Mother of God had been taken to heaven upon her death, and he expressed surprise that the Empress was unaware of this fact (implying that it must have been more or less common knowledge in the Church at the time).
Juvenalius joined to this letter an account of how the apostles had been assembled in miraculous fashion for the burial of the Mother of God, and how after the arrival of the apostle St. Thomas, her tomb had been opened, and her body was not there, and how it had been revealed to the apostles that she had been taken to heaven, body and soul. Later, in the 6th century, belief in the Assumption was defended by St. Gregory of Tours, and no saint or father of the Church thereafter disputed the doctrine."
Obviously, these bits of evidence all by themselves (the early and deafening silence about the bones of Mary, and widespread belief in the Assumption manifest among the early Christians of the 4th and 5th centuries, without any dispute of the doctrine among the saints and the fathers) does not prove that the doctrine is true.
October 7 at 8:54pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson As the wikipedia article says, even a prot got on the bandwagon at one point.
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe, per the Catholic Encyclopedia there are nonspurious references by the fifth century, and it is even established as a feast in certain places by that date.
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Joel HF Something like what Ratzinger says seems true. Still, I am hesitant about certain aspects.
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae. Catholic faith, however, has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Tradition. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Haer., lxxix, 11). The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown; but some argue in favour of Ephesus. The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.
The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite. If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first. The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:
St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.
Today, the belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is universal in the East and in the West; according to Benedict XIV (De Festis B.V.M., I, viii, 18) it is a probable opinion, which to deny were impious and blasphemous.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary
The principal feast of the Blessed Virgin
NEWADVENT.ORG
October 7 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm
CHURCH FATHERS: Assumption of Mary
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.
NEWADVENT.ORG
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Scott Weinberg The Eastern Church's dormition of Mary was celebrated way back over a thousand years ago. The Assumption and the Innaculate Conception seem to go together. The 1950 encyclical is remarkable:
"Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."
http://www.vatican.va/.../hf_p-xii_apc_19501101...
Apostolic Constitution defining the Dogma of the Assumption - Munificentissimus Deus
1. The most bountiful God, who is almighty, the plan of whose providence rests upon wisdom and love, tempers, in the secret purpose of his own mind, the sorrows of peoples and of individual men by means of joys that he interposes in their lives from time to time, in such a way that, under different…
VATICAN.VA
October 7 at 8:55pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Basic question-- I thought the doctrine of assumption body and soul into heaven meant Mary didn't die. Is this not correct?
October 7 at 8:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe still working my way through Matthew J. Peterson's text dump...
October 7 at 8:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe, the east typically celebrates the "dormition" of Mary, afaik, which is understood, I believe, as a painless death/falling asleep in the lord. The west usually doesn't depict there being a death, but the papal bull leaves the question open.
October 7 at 8:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The Damascene account of Juvenal's account says the apostles were at Mary's death, though
October 7 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Right, there are conflicting traditions on the matter.
October 7 at 8:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe gotcha
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, read the real deal above - the doctrine does not mean she didn't die - Pope cites Damascene
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Samantha Cohoe reading
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Joel HF That question has basically been left open, I think.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it has been left open. Just says "at the moment of"
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Joel HF " having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed "
October 7 at 9:10pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right
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Matthew J. Peterson Jedi style.
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Matthew J. Peterson Lucas ripped off the Assumption
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Samantha Cohoe Ok. I read it.
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Samantha Cohoe I see Pius XII's point about the connection between IC and Assumption.
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, if you make the one fittingness argument, you might as well follow it through, right?
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Samantha Cohoe no corruption from conception to death. got it.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante aside from the curious lack of any real historic or even traditional attestation in the period closest to the time of the supposed event, going from speculated first principles and applying "conveniens" gets you there pretty quick
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe next we'll have a pronouncement about the fittingness of Mary getting wrinkles. I'm thinking non conveniens.
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, that was flippant. Maybe Scott is right about me.
October 7 at 9:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- do you know how early relic stuff got going?
October 7 at 9:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante probably assumed (no pun intended) to be incorruptible in life, hence no wrinkles because in-conveniens.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Relic stuff isn't a huge deal until the Germanic West; its there in late antiquity of course, but not like it would be later. And what relics for late antiquity did was somewhat different than they did for the middle ages. Peter Brown is still good for this topic
October 7 at 9:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe This is pure speculation, but if relic stuff didn't get seriously going until belief in the Assumption was already pretty widespread, you could hardly take the lack of relics as evidence of any earlier belief in the Assumption. But I don't know the history on relics well enough to make an assertion about that.
October 7 at 9:36pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Define "big deal"
October 7 at 9:36pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And in a way relics are there from the start; except that they really don't function like they would later. In the earlier times, the mojo they have is entirely as significant of imminent resurrection, not as efficacious workers of wonder
October 7 at 9:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel, they aren't worshipped or coveted or collected in late antiquity they way they were in the German West, not at all really
October 7 at 9:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Scriptural arguments in Munificentissimus Deus are seriously weak-sauce, lending credence to the not-materially-sufficient Catholic understanding of Scripture.
October 7 at 9:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Liguori points out the fittingness of Mary's death who died as Christ as she resembled Him in life and to give example for the precious death of the just.
October 7 at 9:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Although relics may not have been parted out to the same degree as later, they were venerated no less.
October 7 at 9:50pm · Like
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Joel HF I dunno, Jehoshaphat Escalante, your source seems weak to me. I've read plenty of Church Fathers talk about the honor due to relics. It was pretty universal. And yes, they weren't worshiped, if worship means latria, but they were venerated.
October 7 at 9:52pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF St. Gregory of Nyssa to take but one example at random, speaks of even the mere touching of a martyrs tomb is a blessing and sanctification.
October 7 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia It probably has to do with Mass being celebrated in catacombs, but that is speculation.
October 7 at 9:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF And a number of Church Fathers feel the need to distinguish the veneration and bowing toward relics from the worship paid to God. They'd hardly need to do this if the relics weren't considered sanctifying. And of course so many of the Fathers explicitly say that the relics are sanctifying.
October 7 at 9:58pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF Not to mention, the desire to have pieces of the true cross, etc.
October 7 at 9:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joel really, just look at how they worked. Sure, the ancients venerated relics, primarily in tombs; what they meant by "relic" was the resting dead, and as I said, the emphasis was very heavily on the resting dead as sites of resurrection; this was especially so in the very early days, when the dead were martyred and had thus proved their union with the resurrected Christ by overcoming death. The medieval cultus is almost completely different. It's easy to read Nyssa as sounding in the same ballpark as the cult of baby Jesus' foreskin, but look a little closer. This isn't some novel thesis of mine, btw; these are commonplaces of academic (including RC) history.
And Beitia is right; the early reverence was bound up with the fact that Christians were celebrating the Supper in catacombs and sometimes on the tombs of the holy dead (whom they had very often known in person).
October 7 at 9:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Stop! you're both right! They weren't selling John the Baptists head in the early Church
October 7 at 10:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^Not denying the cultus shifted emphasis: the early church thought the second coming was much much closer than it was. I'm saying that one can't deny that the later emphasis (that of sanctification) was already there and quite early.
October 7 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the later emphasis wasn't sanctification; it was wonderworking. This is why there was black market in relics
October 7 at 10:02pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF *Gah! Poorly expressed. What I mean is: The early church including St. Paul had an emphasis on the 2nd coming and the general resurrection that was lost later as it became plain that "soon" for God wasn't very soon for man.
October 7 at 10:02pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante This covers a lot:
http://www.amazon.com/Cult.../dp/0226076229/ref=sr_1_1...
The Cult of the Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity (The Haskell Lectures...
AMAZON.COM
October 7 at 10:02pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and this (by an RC priest):
http://www.amazon.com/Mutatio.../dp/B000TXB9E4/ref=sr_1_1...
Mutations of Western Christianity
This book is a profound study in a small scope of some of the cultural and intellectual crises which determined what...
AMAZON.COM
October 7 at 10:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If a husband says to his wife that he "likes that dress, but it's not my favorite," should his wife a) assume he likes the dress, but prefers certain others b) immediately change into a different dress or c) burn the dress in a fit of rage.
October 7 at 10:04pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe considering all three options at the moment.
October 7 at 10:04pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF St. Augustine talks about wonderworking relics for heavens sakes.
October 7 at 10:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Acts talks about wonderworking relics. Not human remains, though, of course.
October 7 at 10:05pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante sure, I'm not saying that wasnt going on; just not to anything like the same degree
October 7 at 10:05pm · Like
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Joel HF It's in the City of God, and it is very attenuated relic--something like flowers that were taken from the soil near reliquaries in the Holy Land, iirc.
October 7 at 10:05pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Samantha: ignore him is usually the best option.
October 7 at 10:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia d) forget it
October 7 at 10:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There is no option d)
October 7 at 10:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Can't you read?
October 7 at 10:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I will take your comments as votes for option a.
October 7 at 10:08pm · Like
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Joel HF Option a) is clearly not attentive to the esoteric doctrine of your husband's words. #optioncgnosis
October 7 at 10:08pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And by your husband I mean "the hypothetical husband in the hypothetical example."
October 7 at 10:09pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe So Joel HF supports option c.
October 7 at 10:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My hypothetical husband is sighing deeply.
October 7 at 10:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, sorry, where were we on relics?
October 7 at 10:13pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm happy to admit there was a change of emphasis (though, even today the main thing doesn't seem to be wonderworking), but the early church was full of them and not just b/c of the imminent resurrection but also b/c of veneration and sanctification and, yes, wonder-working.
October 7 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But then again, I haven't read the modern academics.
October 7 at 10:15pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia it seems clear that as time increased, veneration became wonderworking simpliciter. but it came from veneration.
October 7 at 10:16pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I guess I find the "no relics of Mary from the early Church" a bit dubious, since even if there were some in circulation, they would have fallen out of favor as pious belief in the Assumption increased, right?
October 7 at 10:17pm · Like
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Joel HF Relics are a pretty universal phenomena from the early early church through the middle ages, as far as I can tell.
October 7 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia well, there are relics, and there are "relics"
October 7 at 10:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe were early relics usually bits of the dead that were passed around?
October 7 at 10:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or more like, clothes, flowers, true cross fragments.
October 7 at 10:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia How about some Eco love? In Baudalino there are people in Constantinople trying to sell one of the heads of St. John the Baptist
October 7 at 10:19pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF As far as I know yes. It was thought necessary in the Theodosian code to forbid their sale.
October 7 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm pretty confident that relics were treated differently under persecution than under officially recognized Roman religion too
October 7 at 10:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I only got about half-way through Baudolino. There. I said it.
October 7 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I feel better now.
October 7 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah that's why.... explains a lot
October 7 at 10:21pm · Like
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Joel HF I rebelled against my father and have never read more than a page or so of Eco.
October 7 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, now you see why all your attempts to make Eco happen on tNET have failed
October 7 at 10:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It is all becoming clear
#austengnosis
October 7 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I suppose his story lines *are* more complicated than finding a suitable match....
October 7 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe oh hush you
October 7 at 10:23pm · Like
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Joel HF You know who has super complicated story lines? Dan Brown. They're almost nonsensical! (NB I haven't actually read Dan Brown.)
October 7 at 10:24pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia well researched books about another time and place are much easier to write than stories about the rotten aristocracy you see around you every day...
October 7 at 10:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, I love historical fiction. Give me some Hilary Mantel over Eco any day, though.
October 7 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Austen too easy?
Eco - Italian Dan Brown?
Autumnal jollies
October 7 at 10:25pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I think I caught Kenz's cold over tNET. My head feels like it is going to explode.
October 7 at 10:26pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah? Wolf Hall? Bring Out the Bodies?
October 7 at 10:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but I suppose the difference is I've ACTUALLY read Austen.
October 7 at 10:26pm · Like
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Joel HF On that note, good night all.
October 7 at 10:26pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hilary Mantel has won the Booker prize TWICE.
October 7 at 10:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Eco has won zero Booker prizes.
October 7 at 10:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I feel like Beitia trying to make Eco happen. No Mantel fans on tNET?
October 7 at 10:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Eco didn't write in English, so he can't win a Booker
#Bookergnosis
October 7 at 10:32pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz There is something to what Jehoshaphat Escalante is saying. The way early Christians treated the dead, and tombs, and the like must all be seen in light of the belief of an imminent resurrection. But also an emphasis on the "overcoming death." Such things were unclean in the ancient world, both in Mosaic law and Roman cultus. It was the belief that Christ overcame death that changed everything here.
But this is not really disconnected from the cultus of the saints either. While it would be foolish to try and make their praxis and our identical (truly, it seems to me as a relic loving modern Catholic that I would find them strange), it is also true that they view the martyrs as being united with the resurrected Christ. I cannot remember the term sometimes used in martyrologies, but there was ascribed to them a certain office of intercession.
As far as the wonder-working thing goes.... well that can be seen in many lights. Certainly, the way such was view and emphasized in the middle ages was different than the early Church, even when it did not veer into superstition. But I don't think, if one reflected deeply on its significance in either age, one would come up with all that radically different of an answer as to why relics had such a place.
October 7 at 10:32pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe He also has zero equivalent-in-awesomeness-to-Booker-Prize-awards.
October 7 at 10:33pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Fair enough, though
October 7 at 10:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about Nabokov? any takers?
October 7 at 10:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I feel about Nabokov as Mr. Richard Delahide Ferrier felt about Nietzsche. "What a waste of greatness. Yet not totally a waste."
October 7 at 10:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hmm...
October 7 at 10:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I'm being summoned. Goodnight.
October 7 at 10:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia adios
October 7 at 10:35pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe you need to know your demographic. Pro-Cromwell novels are not going to go over well with this crowd.
October 7 at 10:36pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Re: Eco: I haven't read any, but why do I always feel like people who like him are people who aren't otherwise into novels? Joel HF's father being a prime example.
October 7 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^^except me
October 7 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell How can you not love Eco?
October 7 at 10:46pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell The writing of Name of the Rose is an academic's dream ...
October 7 at 10:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell So, the story goes, Eco had been doing some research on the period in question, and he had about 5 floppy discs worth. So he wove them together with a minimal story line and sent it to his publisher. And his publisher said: sounds interesting, but the story line is too thin. So then he added a bit more, and still, the publisher said, "Too thin." So he added continually, checking in with his publisher periodically and after about the 5th version, the publisher said: okay ... e finito!
October 7 at 10:50pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I own more Eco than is healthy for a person. . . all the novels and essays, and several works of non-fiction.
October 7 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I was playing soccer, and have lost the discussion of the Assumption. But just a thought. I'm not sure if this was expressed before. It seems plausible that St. John witnessed the Assumption. It also seems reasonable why he did not write about it. Though his vision of a woman clothed with the sun is in Revelation 12.
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."
This coronation would logically follow after Mary being assumed into heaven.
Following that, there is "the great war in heaven" and "The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." (Revelation 7)
The Dragon wages war on heaven's throne,
But heaven's angels rally to disown;
If courage can withstand your present dread,
Then blessed days await for you ahead.
And then we have this circular, outside of time kind of revelation, where the devil, hurled from heaven, takes the form of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden:
The Serpent, in the garden, tempted Eve,
The gravity of death to disbelieve.
O how grave the sin, how great the fall,
That took the blood of Christ to rescue all.
So we have the first woman, Eve, experiencing death. Now even Mary was saved by the blood of Christ. But Her Immaculate Conception and Glorious Assumption were also wrought through His sacrifice. And so you have Mary who, through Christ's Redemptive Act, shows Christ's true relationship with humanity. You have a human person (Mary) preserved from the effects of Original Sin -- body and soul -- in her Conception; and you have a human person who is assumed -- body and soul -- into Heaven. Mary, the new Eve, seems to exemplify, in Christ, God's ideal relationship with humanity, without death. She recovers what Eve lost. She seems to be the exemplar of humanity.
October 7 at 11:36pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Michael: His book on beauty in the Middle Ages was a real talisman for me when I was in my early years at TAC. It didn't shape my thesis on beauty and art, but it certainly inspired it.
October 7 at 11:43pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia This one?
October 7 at 11:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yes, that's it.
October 8 at 12:06am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's only Tuesday night, I know, but ...
http://youtu.be/f7UHd7NVegE
Tom Waits - (Looking For) The Heart Of Saturday Night
YOUTUBE.COM
October 8 at 12:11am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, your question about dresses is why women havethe reputation of being "complicated": your husband just thought you might like to know his opinion; so, I'm on the (a) side.
October 8 at 12:21am · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple The Sean Connery film adaptation of The Name of the Rose is disappointing, to say the least.
October 8 at 12:23am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Ah, but Mr. Langley, men think women are complicated and so give veiled answers to avoid giving offense....
October 8 at 12:27am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sweet Vermouth and Rye, delightful.
October 8 at 12:29am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I have a question for TNET!! How much even could a white girl not, if a white girl just can't even?
October 8 at 12:30am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I am getting that there is some esotericism in that question I am not privy to....
October 8 at 12:31am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #whitegirlgnosis
October 8 at 12:32am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley In my experience, implying any possibility that another article of clothing might be better than the one your wife/financée/girlfriend chose is sufficient cause to wage war; doubly so, if the article of clothing happens to be on someone else; triply so if she had disliked it, whether implicitly or explicitly.
October 8 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I feel so out of touch now...
October 8 at 12:36am · Like
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Joshua Kenz
October 8 at 12:36am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Just listened to this. The tone out of that guitar...and then the singing.
http://youtu.be/LWLAAzOBoBI
BB King Calls This One Of His Best Performances
This entire film is a must-see. Get it at https://www.create...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 8 at 12:38am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, it's practically dogma, St. Paul mentions it:
32But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 33But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.
October 8 at 12:38am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley A significant portion of "pleasing his wife" is knowing what to say about what she decides to wear.
October 8 at 12:39am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The rest is knowing what she wants him to wear before she mentions it.
October 8 at 12:40am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Samantha, you change your profile picture too much!
October 8 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley What in the world makes statements about possibility true?
October 8 at 1:23am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill "I gave you seven children..... And now you want to give them back."
October 8 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Certitude that the possibility is to be actualized.
October 8 at 1:36am · Like
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Edward Langley (By the way, "What in the world" was intended technically, not as expressing exasperation)
October 8 at 1:37am · Like
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Jeff Neill The follow on question is whether actions may be taken to further the possibility.
October 8 at 1:37am · Like
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Jeff Neill I think it is a great question.
October 8 at 1:38am · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, I just got out of a class that touched on the question, I wanted to say that matter and ultimately prime matter does this. The other side was basically arguing that it's the efficient cause.
October 8 at 1:40am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Isn't it both?
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Edward Langley I think there has to be some middle ground between the two answers, especially given creation ex nihilo.
October 8 at 1:40am · Like
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Jeff Neill In my experience in future strategy development and risk management, the statements are always treated as true. Many get experienced.
October 8 at 1:40am · Like
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Edward Langley It seems that within the realm of the contingent, prime matter is sufficient.
October 8 at 1:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Potency cannot be reduced to any act, unless some agent has that act, either univocally, or analogically (in a higher way).
October 8 at 1:41am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Sure, but the agent explains actuality, not possibility.
October 8 at 1:42am · Like
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Edward Langley I distinguished the possibility of a being from the possibility of coming-to-be.
October 8 at 1:42am · Like
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Joshua Kenz What does De Koninck say on this?
October 8 at 1:42am · Like
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Jeff Neill But statements about the future are often in reference to cause.
October 8 at 1:42am · Like
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Edward Langley I'll have to revisit.
October 8 at 1:43am · Like
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Edward Langley I argued that the former (potency to being) can and must be understood in abstraction from efficient causality, since it's a presupposition of change while the latter requires consideration of efficient causality.
October 8 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I know Uncle Glen says, in an appendix to the Physics, that prime matter is the root of contingency.
October 8 at 1:44am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Okay. I think I get the distinction you are making
October 8 at 1:45am · Like
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Edward Langley I suppose this is relevant: https://docs.google.com/.../1IJkUc.../edit
The Nature of Possibility - Google Docs
DOCS.GOOGLE.COM
October 8 at 1:45am · Like · Remove Preview
John Ashman "The writing of Name of the Rose is an academic's dream ..."
Yes...my professor thought that too. We let him have his delusions.
October 8 at 1:46am · Like
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Jeff Neill I like the distinction of fortune being ignorance of action.
October 8 at 1:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill In your "what in the world" statement, did you intend for physical restrictions such as "a bird may give birth to a giraffe"? but "prime matter" does not seem to fit into the answer.
October 8 at 2:02am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Because prime matter is not a "what"?
October 8 at 2:03am · Like
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Jeff Neill Not really...
October 8 at 2:04am · Like
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Edward Langley No, I grant that you have to appeal to agents for things like "It is possible that there be more men" since that is a question of whether a certain change (generation) can take place.
October 8 at 2:11am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Where I don't think it's necessary is statements like "Dodoes are possible"
October 8 at 2:11am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz But it, insofar as it is an it, is in the world as a principle of contingency in material things, no?
Would dodoes be possible if there were no agency that could reduce primate matter to such a form? I mean, is all you are saying is that dodoes are a possible form of material being?
October 8 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Dodos? I give up.
October 8 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "if there were no agency that could reduce primate matter to such a form"
It seems that such an agency might be lurking, but it's a remote cause.
October 8 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Possibility as such depends upon an absolute actuality, which is, by virtue of being absolute act, the pre-eminent efficient cause.
Specific potentialities depend upon limited actuality. The potentiality of the material depends upon three principles: the present actual form, the possible form (privation), and the intrinsic potency of the thing to receive that change (matter)--that is, the lack of absolute actuality per se in the present actual form. A tree is potentially a bed, in part, because it is not a bed; but being a tree, it can receive the form of a bed.
Extrapolating from this, the potentiality of a thing (i.e., a created finite being) to be at all, is dependent upon that which is absolute act. The creation of primary matter is simultaneous with the creation of something having designated matter.
So... what "in the world" makes statements about possibility true depends on the kind of possibility we are discussing. If it's something having matter, prime matter, as a principle "of the world", having been established by an ultimate efficient cause. If it's something immaterial, the efficient cause.
Dodoes are possible because the privation-form is not contradictory for existence in matter.
Makes sense to me, at least.
October 8 at 2:15am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I wonder if prime matter can be thought of as a self-imposed limit on divine agency.
October 8 at 2:17am · Like
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Isak Benedict the Name of the Rose
the Being of the Dodo -
autumnal jollies
October 8 at 2:17am · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple How would it be a limit?
October 8 at 2:17am · Like
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Edward Langley According to hypothetical necessity
October 8 at 2:18am · Like
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Edward Langley i.e. if it is supposed that God is going to change something in the world into another thing, the things it can be changed into are circumscribed by the potency of prime matter: thus, for example, God cannot change a dog into an angel.
October 8 at 2:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What? Edward Langley?
October 8 at 2:19am · Like
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Edward Langley Do you think I'm crazy, with the preceding qualifications?
October 8 at 2:20am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Typically, if you say Prime Matter is -- and you put anything here other than potency under form, your are not talking about Prime Matter.
October 8 at 2:20am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Sure, but potency is a limit upon act.
October 8 at 2:21am · Like
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Edward Langley Prime matter, as the ultimate potency, is the most fundamental limit upon material actuality.
October 8 at 2:21am · Like
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Brian Kemple I'm not sure how that one works, because I don't know how we would grasp the identity between the dog and the angel.
October 8 at 2:21am · Like
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Brian Kemple It seems to be sort of like saying, "What if God ceased to operate reasonably?"
October 8 at 2:22am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The thing about prime matter, though, is that it is in no way determined, accept that it is "under form."
October 8 at 2:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman sorry, I mean "material form."
October 8 at 2:22am · Like
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Edward Langley Yes, Daniel Lendman, but the passive potency limits the form that receives it as well as the agency that acts on it.
October 8 at 2:23am · Like
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Edward Langley My argument before was that since angelic forms are not in the potency of prime matter, God cannot act upon a dog in such a way that it turns into an angel: he could, however, change the dog into a dodo if he felt like it.
October 8 at 2:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I guess I would say this: there is no material creature possible that God cannot create.
October 8 at 2:23am · Like
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Edward Langley ^Yes, I'm in agreement
October 8 at 2:24am · Like
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Edward Langley Although, my question is about change, not creation, Daniel Lendman
October 8 at 2:24am · Like
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Brian Kemple The limitation which prime matter imposes upon the agency acting upon it is proportionate to the power of the agent acting; the more powerful the agent, the less limitation imposed. Thus it wouldn't impose any limit upon an infinite act.
October 8 at 2:24am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Given creation, what changes can God bring about without a special creation.
October 8 at 2:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, in the case you are talking about, the limitation is not on God, but is on the part of Angelic Form.
October 8 at 2:25am · Like
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Edward Langley No, Daniel Lendman, what I'm saying is that it's on the part of the material cause of change.
October 8 at 2:25am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley If A changes into B, A's matter must be potential to B
October 8 at 2:26am · Like
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Brian Kemple As I understand Thomas to answer this, God can bring about any changes which do not imply a contradiction (SCG II c.25)
October 8 at 2:26am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am thinking along Brian's lines.
October 8 at 2:26am · Like
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Edward Langley Brian Kemple, is that about change or creation?
October 8 at 2:26am · Like
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Edward Langley (and, fwiw, I don't think Aquinas thought prime matter was in potency to the forms of the heavenly bodies and thus God could not change a dog into Jupiter)
October 8 at 2:26am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Both.
October 8 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Now, he could annihilate Fido and then immediately create Jupiter, but that wouldn't be a change.
October 8 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Perhaps he could even "transubstantiate" Fido into Jupiter.
October 8 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Odd.^ but yes.
October 8 at 2:28am · Like
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Edward Langley But that is not a change either.
October 8 at 2:28am · Like
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Brian Kemple n.13: Amplius. Ad remotionem cuiuslibet principii essentialis sequitur remotio ipsius rei. Si igitur Deus non potest facere rem simul esse et non esse, nec etiam potest facere quod rei desit aliquod suorum principiorum essentialium ipsa remanente: sicut quod homo non habeat animam.
So God could not change a thing to have an essence other than that which is its essence and have it remain the same thing.
October 8 at 2:28am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley The possible termini of change are limited by the potency of prime matter: it may not be much of a limit, but it still is.
October 8 at 2:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or they are limited by form.
October 8 at 2:30am · Edited · Like
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Brian Kemple Well, more proximately they are limited by the designated matter that is intrinsic to their essence.
October 8 at 2:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't know why you wouldn't see that as the cause.
October 8 at 2:29am · Like
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Edward Langley Brian Kemple, just to be clear, I'm not talking about the fairy tale version of change in which the prince changes into a frog and remains the same in number.
October 8 at 2:29am · Like
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Brian Kemple I'm not quite sure what change you're talking about then. Perhaps you could clarify.
October 8 at 2:30am · Like
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Edward Langley Physics I.7
October 8 at 2:30am · Like
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Edward Langley Substantial generation and corruption.
October 8 at 2:30am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm saying that if God generates some being from the matter underlying another, that matter limits the possible forms that the generated being can have.
October 8 at 2:31am · Like
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Brian Kemple Insofar as a thing is material, it is limited in that it must necessary have a potency to the reception of other material form. So, yes, that would be a limitation imposed by prime matter; there is, of course, an infinite variety of different forms which could be instantiated, inasmuch as potency can be infinitely differentiated.
October 8 at 2:32am · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, I'm not denying something like the Divine Ideas are also the grounds of such possibility: I'm just arguing that they are a more remote cause than prime matter which is, in turn, a more remote cause than proximate matter.
October 8 at 2:32am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman If the only limitation you are speaking of is the limitation Brian said, then I am in agreement.
October 8 at 2:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why I said that prime matter is potency under material form.
October 8 at 2:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just wouldn't call that a self-imposed Divine Limitation.
October 8 at 2:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Rather, simply the nature of things.
October 8 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think the phrase is true, if awkward.
October 8 at 2:36am · Like
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Edward Langley it is a limitation on the divine power, but not such absolutely but only such by the necessity imposed by a final cause.
October 8 at 2:37am · Like
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Edward Langley Such necessity is self-imposed. Therefore, etc. . .
October 8 at 2:37am · Like
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Brian Kemple It's not a limitation upon the "self", though. It's a limitation of the things created. God's power isn't in any way diminished by prime matter.
October 8 at 2:38am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I never said it was a limitation on the "self"
October 8 at 2:38am · Like
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Edward Langley But I'm in agreement with your last point.
October 8 at 2:38am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Tangential point: Langley, do you think Aquinas ultimately held that there was a different kind of prime matter for heavenly bodies? I know this is a disputed question of interpretation, but it seems to me his latter answers, and an understanding of prime matter precisely as such, excludes such an account.
October 8 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Good. What Brian said sounds less crazy and more true than what you said.
October 8 at 2:55am · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, I'm not really sure.
October 8 at 2:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think prime matter is the same.
October 8 at 2:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't remember where I read it, by I think Aquinas holds that the forms of the heavenly bodies wholly exhaust the potency of matter.
October 8 at 2:57am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is the difference.
October 8 at 2:57am · Like
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Edward Langley It seems reasonable, though, unless you want to say that a material form can perfectly satisfy the appetite of matter (remember, the heavenly bodies are not subject to generation/corruption): that seems unfitting because that appetite is infinite and thus it would seem that only an infinite act could do so.
October 8 at 2:58am · Like
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Edward Langley Right? Isn't that why God is our final end? only an infinite being can exhaust an infinite potency?
October 8 at 2:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But potency is being said equivocally.
October 8 at 2:59am · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, "I don't remember where I read it, by I think Aquinas holds that the forms of the heavenly bodies wholly exhaust the potency of matter."
The question is which matter is referred to there?
October 8 at 2:59am · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, I don't see why the principle doesn't hold true for either sense of the term.
October 8 at 2:59am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Is the potency there of prime matter? Seems we might be jumping categories (and the beatific vision is not our end as something demanded by our nature, no?)
October 8 at 3:00am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I guess, what I am saying, is that the forms of the heavenly bodies are of a different order than material generable and corruptible forms. Therefore, they are able to exhaust the appetite for form.
October 8 at 3:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My point is that it is sufficient to attribute the incorruptibility to the form.
October 8 at 3:01am · Like
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Edward Langley My point is that infinite potency can only be satisfied by an infinite act, in any situation.
October 8 at 3:01am · Like
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Edward Langley ?
October 8 at 3:01am · Like
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Edward Langley Super Sent., lib. 2 d. 3 q. 1 a. 1
October 8 at 3:02am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not sure exactly how it comes down, but looks relevant
October 8 at 3:02am · Like
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Daniel Lendman My point is that the infinite appetite for form on the part of prime matter is for corruptible form. However, there is nothing impossible about that appetite being satisfied by a higher order of form.
October 8 at 3:03am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Because the appetite for form is an appetite for perfection.
October 8 at 3:03am · Like
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Edward Langley If it could be satisfied by a higher form, how could there be many of such forms?
October 8 at 3:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman However, the heavenly bodies are able to provide that perfection through their form.
October 8 at 3:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Because there is still one "here' and "there."
October 8 at 3:05am · Like
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Edward Langley "Tertia positio est quod corpora caelestia et elementa non communicant in materia: et haec est positio Averrois, et Rabbi Moysis, et videtur magis dictis Aristotelis convenire; et ideo istam eligimus, quantum ad praesens pertinet"
October 8 at 3:05am · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, but we only no community of matter through change and, on the hypothesis, the element of the heavenly bodies cannot change into the four elements of the terrestrial sphere.
October 8 at 3:06am · Like
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Edward Langley (nor vice-versa)
October 8 at 3:06am · Like
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Edward Langley But, if the forms of the heavenly bodies are more perfect than those of earthly bodies, they should be able to generate a similar within earthly bodies . . .
October 8 at 3:07am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
October 8 at 3:08am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Aquinas seems to have held three views in his life. Special form and matter, special matter, just form
October 8 at 3:08am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz This article is great
https://www.dropbox.com/.../38ln69.../CelestialMatter.pdf...
CelestialMatter.pdf
Shared with Dropbox
DROPBOX.COM
October 8 at 3:08am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The important part starts on page 458,
"Somewhat later in his life, when he wrote his commentary on Aristotle's
De caelo (1272-73) and De substantiis separatis (1271), Thomas explains the incorruptibility of the heavenly bodies with an emphasis that is considerably different from that which is found in the Summa Theologiae. In these later works, he lays stress on the fact that it is the form of the heavenly bodies that makes them incorruptible. There is a change of emphasis from matter to form, and this change is indicative, I think, of a change in doctrine."
October 8 at 3:14am · Like
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Edward Langley I have to actually read it, but I'm not convinced by that argument
October 8 at 3:14am · Like
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Joshua Kenz At the very least, it is a moot point, right? Mars is not an incorruptible body, so the attendant difficulties of saying that are moot.... the only question would be, could an incorruptible body exist, on natural principles alone.
October 8 at 3:20am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Seems to me the inability of there two be different types of prime matter would be know first and more certainly
October 8 at 3:21am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The difference between matter and matter could be analyzed just as the difference between prime matter and God is analyzed.
October 8 at 3:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ?
October 8 at 3:23am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I am with stupid ^ huh?
October 8 at 3:23am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley They just are diverse, they don't differ
October 8 at 3:23am · Like
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Edward Langley "Ad tertium dicendum quod simplicia non differunt aliquibus aliis differentiis, hoc enim compositorum est. Homo enim et equus differunt rationali et irrationali differentiis, quae quidem differentiae non differunt amplius ab invicem aliis differentiis. Unde, si fiat vis in verbo, non proprie dicuntur differre, sed diversa esse, nam, secundum philosophum X Metaphys., diversum absolute dicitur, sed omne differens aliquo differt. Unde, si fiat vis in verbo, materia prima et Deus non differunt, sed sunt diversa seipsis. Unde non sequitur quod sint idem."
October 8 at 3:24am · Like
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Edward Langley (Iª q. 3 a. 8 ad 3)
October 8 at 3:24am · Like
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Edward Langley If the potency to terrestrial forms is not the potency to celestial forms, that is not so in virtue of any distinguishing characteristics: they just are different.
October 8 at 3:25am · Like
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Joshua Kenz That makes no sense in this context ^ I conclude you are either trolling or drunk
October 8 at 3:25am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The evidence for unity of matter is wholly from change.
October 8 at 3:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman lol^
October 8 at 3:26am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm not drunk and I'm perfectly serious.
October 8 at 3:27am · Like
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Edward Langley The evidence we have for unity of matter is that the elements can change into each other: thus, they must have a common matter.
October 8 at 3:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Then I have no idea how two things without any determination can be diverse
October 8 at 3:27am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley By their order to form.
October 8 at 3:27am · Like
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Joshua Kenz If "earthly" prime matter is only potential to some forms, and "celestial" to others, then neither is pure potency. They have a determination already
October 8 at 3:28am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz You are starting to sound Suarezian
October 8 at 3:29am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And I would rather be drunk than Suarezian
October 8 at 3:29am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman It is not clear how certain one can be about these sort of things. However, it seems unfitting and unnecessary to posit kinds of prime matter, since the differences can more reasonably be attributed to kinds of form.
October 8 at 3:42am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Prime matter isn't exactly the most intelligible thing out there
October 8 at 3:54am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman In saying that “God created man” the text indicates, by the indefinite character of the therm, all mankind; for was not Adam here named together with the creation, as the history tells us in what follows? Yet the name given to the man created is not the particular, but the general name; thus we are led by the employment of the general name of our nature to some such view as this: that in the Divine foreknowledge and power all humanity is included in the first creation; for it is fitting for God not to regard any of the things made by Him as indeterminate, but that each existing thing should have some limit and measure prescribed by the wisdom of its Maker.
Now just as any particular man is limited by his bodily dimensions, and the peculiar size which is conjoined with the superficies of his body is the measure of his separate existence, so I think that the entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of all, by His power and foreknowledge, as it were in one body, and that this what the text teaches us which says, “God created man, in the image of God created He him.”1
For the image is not in part of our nature, nor is the grace in any one of the things found in that nature, but this power extends equally to all the race: and a sign of this is that mind is implanted alike in all: for all have the power of understanding and deliberating, and of all else wherby the Divine nature finds its image in that which was made according to it: the man that was manifested at the first creation of the world, and he that shall be after the consummation of all, are alike: they equally bear in themeselves the Divine image.
For this reason the whole race was spoken of as one man, namely that to God's power nothing is either past or future, but even that which we expect is comprehended, equally with what is at present existing, by the all sustaining energy. Our whole nature, then, extending from the first to the last, is, so to say, one image of Him Who is.
-Gregory of Nyssa
October 8 at 6:59am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Lauren Ogrodnick-- what's wrong with changing my profile picture all the time?
October 8 at 8:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia who really cares what St. Thomas says about celestial bodies? they are made of the same "stuff" as everything else. One needn't posit separate matter, or incorruptible forms, because even the unity of a planet, or star, is an accidental unity. Late night tNET and the idle speculation....
October 8 at 8:45am · Like · 4
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John Ashman If Jesus had provided advanced theoretical physics to his followers as divine knowledge, or at least mentioned that the Earth is not the center of the planetary system, I'd have been more impressed.
October 8 at 8:50am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine Joliat Feil-- you're right, also Mantel has a somewhat harsh take on Thomas More. Y'all would hate that.
October 8 at 8:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "somewhat harsh" is a massive understatement, actually.
October 8 at 8:53am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It seems that the first forms were heavens and earth, and earth was one form, then informed with further distinction... day and night, land and sea, the animals, then man, male and female:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."
Theologically, I think the the form of the celestial beings may have preceeded that, and the intellectual forms of Wisdom.
But I am wondering if the first form of the Universe informed Prime Matter.
October 8 at 9:26am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Introduction to the Bestiary
A Bestiary is a literary collection of animals, each one of which conveys a moral lesson about goodness. The first known Bestiary was written by an unknown author in the first century. The goal of this first book of beasts was to shed light on the mysteries of the Christian faith through a poetical description of the animals. As a book within the liberal art of Rhetoric, bestiaries flourished during the Middle Ages, when preachers used tales of fabulous beasts to move hearts towards virtue. While the descriptions of the beasts were often fantastical, the theological lessons were on the mark. One of the most fascinating traits of the Bestiary is its literary devices, particularly its use of simile and persuasive metaphor to play on the imagination and will. When combined with the principles of faith, these literary devices support the spiritual act of devotion.
With its emphasis on the human spirit, the aim of the Bestiary is especially in line with the theology of the Eastern Church. In the fourth century, St. John Chrysostom taught that it is good to be kind and gentle with animals, and to learn from them, because we share the same Creator; and while a wild beast will rarely harm a person, a bad person may readily devour another. Hence, there is a great need to seek God’s aid and strive for goodness. In his homilies, St. John Chrysostom referred often to the animals, including the Bee which labors long hours, never for itself but always out of care for others. So let us readily care for and love one another for the greater glory of God. Countless Saints of the Eastern Church, from Saint John Chrysostom to Saint Seraphim of Sarov of the last century, have maintained this tradition to inspire the faithful towards devotion.
The Bestiary is the original devotional, and its literary elements have lasted through the ages in the writings of the Saints. Far from being limited to mere natural persuasion, the Bestiary aims at a spirit of devotion; for, as Venerable Luis de Granada writes, “it is the property of meditation or contemplation to produce the sentiment and affection of the will which is called devotion.” Indeed, Saint Francis de Sales, in his Introduction to the Devout Life, details numerous animals in order to lead us to devotion. According to St. Francis, devotion is “a spiritual activity and liveliness by means of which Divine Love works in us, and causes us to work briskly and lovingly... Just as charity leads us to a general practice of all God’s Commandments, so devotion leads us to practice them diligently.”
October 8 at 9:33am · Like
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John Ashman Now define Beitiary.
See Translation
October 8 at 9:34am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg A bestiary is a kind of book,
Full of diverse creatures, have a look,
At reptiles, mammals —
hoofed, winged and aquatic;
Backyard bugs and insects most exotic.
So human-like, the creatures oft’ will lend,
Themselves as living-lessons for the end,
Of learning, through their happiness or strife,
Truths about the higher things in life.
So if a Bat flies down your chimney, nightly,
Just open up the dooor for it, politely,
And if it flies away, don't be alarmed,
Its great respect for you will go unharmed.
Or if you see a Hippo in your pool,
Don't be alarmed, they love to keep their cool;
Or if an Ostrich strolls across your yard,
Be kind to it, that isn't very hard.
For God reveals, and nature is displayed,
And God is known through everything He’s made,
And though we’re made uniquely in His form,
We share the same Creator as the worm.
So come along, Dear Reader, come along,
Rise up in poetry, rejoice in song;
All creatures, from the noblest to the least,
Reveal the goodness found in every beast!
Now, welcome to this blessed bestiary,
A zoo of words where animals run free,
May ever you enjoy each antique fable,
Placed near by, upon the family table!
October 8 at 9:38am · Like
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Jeff Neill Edward Langley, what do you mean by the elements change into each other?
Fortunately, having sent robots to Mars we know that it is made of the "same stuff" as here; not celestial incorruptible material.
Honestly, I'm not convinced that that prime matter is anything more than a logical construct.
It does not seem to be the solution as to what makes a potential statement true.
October 8 at 9:59am · Like
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Edward Langley Well, for Aristotle, water could change into fire, etc. Now, via fusion and fssion the chemical elements can be changed into each other. But, even more fundamentally, quarks can change into each other.
October 8 at 10:01am · Like
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Joel HF What then are the elements?
October 8 at 10:08am · Like
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Edward Langley For now, it looks like certain quarks are.
October 8 at 10:09am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Not the higgs boson?
October 8 at 10:09am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Also, what evidence is there of substantial change in non living things? Or rather, that the elements, whatever they are, actually change from one into the other?
October 8 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Coffee machine broke
May not make it through the day
autumnal jollies
October 8 at 10:11am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Can we start tagging
New people to tNET for
Autumnal jollies
October 8 at 10:13am · Like · 7
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Jeff Neill What? No. Fision and fusion are not alchemy changing lead into gold. As for protons and and electrons (far before quarks) what do you mean by change into each other.
October 8 at 10:14am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We need fresh members of the cult. Tag em in reference to this very debate
October 8 at 10:14am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill My heterodox friends may freak. (They may not last the 6th order cult initiation ceremony.)
October 8 at 10:18am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think Prime Matter is a concept, a concept for principle matter without form. The Universe is the first form.
October 8 at 10:19am · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Cuddeback, John Janaro, any deep thoughts?
October 8 at 10:20am · Like
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Adrw Lng Good morning TNET. Today's thought as I was getting ready for my day: I've never understood the attitude/belief of American exceptionalism. Yes we should be patriotic and yes the Constitution is great blah blah, but won't this Republic rise and fall like any other in the end? How does it make sense to have supernatural hope for America? #politicallydisenfranchisedgnosis
October 8 at 10:25am · Like · 6
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Edward Langley Jeff Neill, in beta decay, for example, one of the protons or neutrons in the nucleus changes into the other kind of nuclear particle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay
October 8 at 10:26am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley "In nuclear physics, beta decay (β decay) is a type of radioactive decay in which a proton is transformed into a neutron, or vice versa, inside an atomic nucleus. This process allows the atom to move closer to the optimal ratio of protons and neutrons. As a result of this transformation, the nucleus emits a detectable beta particle, which is an electron or positron.[1]"
October 8 at 10:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ok, heavy atoms, but they are not different elements.
October 8 at 10:27am · Like
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Edward Langley And, Jeff Neill, while there are certain practical limits on fusion, as far as I can tell, there are no theoretical limits on which elements could be the products of fusion: in fact, if there were, the elements that could not result from fusion would not exist since all the elements have been created from hydrogen by fusion in stars.
October 8 at 10:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am not convinced that quarks, or higgs boson count as elements. They don't really exist on their own, do they?
October 8 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, I'm not sure we are clear on what "element" means.
October 8 at 10:28am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, neither do Aristotle's elements
October 8 at 10:28am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Element means those things which are elemental.
October 8 at 10:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I dispute that about Aristotle's elements, Edward.
October 8 at 10:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For example, water exists.
October 8 at 10:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman On its own
October 8 at 10:30am · Like
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Edward Langley "In fact, however, fire and air, and each of the bodies we have mentioned, are not simple, but blended. The 'simple' bodies are indeed similar in nature to them, but not identical with them. Thus the 'simple' body corresponding to fire is 'such-as-fire, not fire: that which corresponds to air is 'such-as-air': and so on with the rest of them. But fire is an excess of heat, just as ice is an excess of cold. For freezing and boiling are excesses of heat and cold respectively. Assuming, therefore, that ice is a freezing of moist and cold, fire analogously will be a boiling of dry and hot: a fact, by the way, which explains why nothing comes-to-be either out of ice or out of fire"
October 8 at 10:30am · Like
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Edward Langley DGC, II.2
October 8 at 10:31am · Like
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Edward Langley As that text seems to indicate, the water we see is not the element but a combination of the element whose proper quality is coldness with an element whose proper quality is moistness.
October 8 at 10:32am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes, I am aware of this.
October 8 at 10:32am · Like
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Edward Langley But there is no indication that those elements can, properly speaking, exist separately.
October 8 at 10:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What I meant is that elements seem to require a more stable existence.
October 8 at 10:32am · Like
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Jeff Neill You mean fire and ice?
October 8 at 10:33am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't see why, they are defined as a material cause and not as something in their own right.
October 8 at 10:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Protons, Neutrons and Electrons seem to be more like elements.
October 8 at 10:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman quarks seem almost like principles of material beings.
October 8 at 10:34am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Element are the first forms after the first form. Obviously.
October 8 at 10:34am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Just kidding.
October 8 at 10:36am · Like
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Edward Langley "'Element' means (a) the primary immanent thing, formally indivisible into another form, of which something is composed."
October 8 at 10:37am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley With all allowances for bad translation, it doesn't seem to me like elements have to be able to exist on their own: they just have to compose the thing.
October 8 at 10:38am · Like
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Edward Langley They are not defined insofar as they exist by themselves.
October 8 at 10:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "formally indivisible into another form" is what I am referring to.
October 8 at 10:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is not clear that this is true of quarks.
October 8 at 10:39am · Like
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Jeff Neill Therefore the table of elements qualifies.
October 8 at 10:39am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman the indivisibility of form implies a certain degree of stable existence to my mind.
October 8 at 10:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps Jeff.
October 8 at 10:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Although, I am inclined to think Protons and Neutrons better qualify.
October 8 at 10:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps electrons?
October 8 at 10:40am · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, "element" seems to be a principle of matter???????
October 8 at 10:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, thoughts?
October 8 at 10:43am · Like
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Edward Langley Scott, it's a material cause, yes
October 8 at 10:45am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman No. About what I said above.
October 8 at 10:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "formally indivisible into another form" seems to imply a certain stability of existence.
October 8 at 10:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What is more, it is not clear that this is true of quarks.
October 8 at 10:45am · Like
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Jeff Neill I need
October 8 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Have scientists proved with certainty that these things called atoms, protons, neutrons and quarks exist, or does it just look like these things exist??
October 8 at 10:45am · Like
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Edward Langley Is that caffeine?
October 8 at 10:46am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Depends on what you mean by certainty.
October 8 at 10:46am · Like
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Edward Langley I think we never will have absolute certitude about the elements, Scott.
October 8 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I do think the particulate conception, though, is false.
October 8 at 10:47am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What's that and why do you think it is false?
October 8 at 10:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill Certitude In elements? Most definitely.
October 8 at 10:53am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I guess for some there is certainty in elements, and for others there is not.
October 8 at 10:55am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley I just don't know how we can tell that we've hit the most fundamental constituents of matter except experimentally and, then, we can't know if some other experiment will show us something more fundamental.
October 8 at 10:56am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The particulate conception is, roughly speaking, that ultimately all bodies are composed of small particles.
October 8 at 10:57am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Apropos of nothing:
Has anyone ever encountered the position that the Old Law is "still in force" today?
October 8 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, if you have a robust understanding of "indivisibility of form" then one doesn't always need to keep "breaking things down."
October 8 at 10:59am · Like
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Edward Langley "robust" is a weasel word.
October 8 at 11:01am · Like
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Scott Weinberg There are probably some who know with certainty that some may know the elements with certainty while others may not; and there are probably some who may not know with certainty that some may know the elements with certainty while others may not.
October 8 at 11:01am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think you can know things like matter and form with certainty. All this breaking down into particles stuff just seems to be a totally different kind of thing, and not necessarily a radical departure from the philosophy of matter and form. I should add in fairness I have no special expertice in this area, other than trying to be a liberally educated Victorian man of leisure.
October 8 at 11:04am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I wrote a great paper on how those things are different for my MA in Philosophy.
October 8 at 11:07am · Like
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Jeff Neill Graphene will change the world in the next couple years.
Graphene is a 2d sheet of Carbon only an atom thick. (So it gets to be called 2d)
October 8 at 11:07am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Yeah^ That is amazing.
October 8 at 11:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Discovered by guys goofing-off.
October 8 at 11:08am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, I would like to read that paper, or at least a summary of that paper.
October 8 at 11:09am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is Graphene the stuff in Captain America's shield or Batman's armor? Would you coat stuff with it? Is it like teflon?
October 8 at 11:10am · Like
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Jeff Neill
October 8 at 11:11am · Like
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Scott Weinberg That looks like it's more than an atom think. That must be 3d.
October 8 at 11:12am · Like
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Jeff Neill The visible atom is incredible.
And more believable than prime matter.
October 8 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene
Graphene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Graphene is pure carbon in the form of a very thin, nearly transparent sheet, one atom thick. It is remarkably strong...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 8 at 11:22am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, don't we need to explain where the matter in this universe came from. It can't just come from nowhere, and it couldn't have been here forever.
October 8 at 11:23am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, why not?
October 8 at 11:25am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Graphene looks good. I like how it is described as "very thin." I would like to see it in a spray can. It could make you invisible and well-armored.
October 8 at 11:25am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Well, if nowhere is the same thing as nothing, then it could not have come from there because then nothing would be something at least: it would at least be the place it came from. It could not have always been here. I'm not sure why, but I am thinking about that one.
October 8 at 11:27am · Like
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Scott Weinberg It could not have always been here, because then there would be no explanation for how it got here.
October 8 at 11:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One of the exciting things about the origins of the universe is that "nowhere" and "nothing" aren't the same.
October 8 at 11:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That the world cannot be eternal is not knowable by reason.
October 8 at 11:30am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Well, one thing I do think I know, is that everything is happening at the same moment right now.
October 8 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think this means there was a beginning where the first somewhere and the first something happened at the same moment.
October 8 at 11:34am · Like
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Liam Collins I, for one, am highly unlikely to be tragged into another debate about the existence of atoms and "elements" Matthew J. Peterson.
October 8 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Ah, Liam, you should stay!
October 8 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Atoms are elemental.
October 8 at 11:45am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill What happened in the last discussion ?
October 8 at 11:40am · Like
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Joel HF From elsewhere on FB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC9Qh709gas#t=180
polyphonic overtone singing - Anna-Maria Hefele
by Anna-Maria Hefele | http://www.am-oberton.deVideo:...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 8 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Joel HF h/t Evan Dunkel
October 8 at 11:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict Stay Liam!
October 8 at 11:49am · Like
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Liam Collins well, I appreciate the welcome, ya'll, and may check back later. But right now, I need to go do some science, like for realz.
October 8 at 11:51am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The bestiary is fantastical but leads to truth. Modern science is fantastical but does not say lead to truth. Modern science is a beitiary.
October 8 at 12:06pm · Like
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Adrw Lng On my desk this morning. The uncanny valley
October 8 at 12:25pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng Also, no one wants to take a swing at my American exceptionalism comment?
October 8 at 12:29pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Beitiary? wth is that?
#atomicgnosis
October 8 at 12:52pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Why is that on your desk, Andrew?
October 8 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Flyer for Dolly Pardon's Imagination Library which our local library sponsors. Some thoughtful parishioner dropped it off.
October 8 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Oh, that's Dolly Pardon? I thought an ugly Naugahyde couch sprouted limbs.....
October 8 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and why, again, can we say "form" of non-organic things? they can really only said to be "one" equivocally.
October 8 at 1:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia stars are not one thing
except accidentally one
Autumnal jollies
October 8 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Why do you hate Orion?
October 8 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it is a very long story.
October 8 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it comes from hating fall and winter (and most of spring too)
October 8 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Now Spica, there's a star for me. Something nice about his bluishness
October 8 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--w/r/t the "being one", first, it isn't clear that it can only be said accidentally of nonliving beings. Second, even if so, why is this necessarily a problem? After all, no-one thinks "a mountain" is one other than accidentally, or a leaf pile or a solar system, etc.
October 8 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (her?) is in the constellation Virgo
October 8 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so what has the substantial form, then?
October 8 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia atoms, rocks and mountains? that's a lot of substantial forms in one place
October 8 at 1:22pm · Like
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Joel HF I'd argue that lots of natural things have substantial form. Atoms & molecules most properly. But I'm not sure of this.
October 8 at 1:22pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm saying "mountain" is not a substantial form, anymore than "leaf pile" is. There is a unity, but not of substance.
October 8 at 1:23pm · Like
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Brian Kemple If a thing doesn't have a substantial form, it wouldn't be at all.
October 8 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia true. but if atoms and molecules both have substantial form is there a form of O2 and a Form of CO2 in which the O2s are different?
October 8 at 1:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "thing" is an extremely loose term
October 8 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF "A thing"? What do you mean? Seems like many "things" don't have substantial form, not least of which are qualities, quantities, relations, etc.
October 8 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia My pants don't have substantial form, I sure hope they exist
#formalpantsgnosis
October 8 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple Let me qualify: if that which is a finite being is not in something possessing a substantial form or a substantial form itself, then it would not be at all.
October 8 at 1:25pm · Like
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Adrw Lng In other news of the weird, MN hometown weirdo Prince is still cool apparently.
http://vimeo.com/61739791
Plectrum Electrum - 3rd Eye Girl
VIMEO.COM|BY MADISONDUBÉ
October 8 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Michael your gnosis is showing.
#XYZgnosis
October 8 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Somebody stole my #gnosis
October 8 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #nakednightmarepodiumgnosis?
October 8 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman It certainly seems true that non-living things are not as much one as living things.
October 8 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But what about undead things?
October 8 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman #zombiegnosis
October 8 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia take that and stick it in your hylomorphic pipe
October 8 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman #zombieapocalypsegnosis
October 8 at 1:28pm · Like
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Brian Kemple TNET seems a sillier place this early in the day.
October 8 at 1:28pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman So, what do we say about the Old Law?
October 8 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is like a zombie law when Jews observe it today, right?
October 8 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Or rather, it is just dead, and there is a kind of necrophilia going on.
October 8 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Is that the first time necrophilia has been used on TNET?
October 8 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "Take that and stick it in your hylomorphic pipe" is definitely my favorite quotation from TNET. I will be quoting that in real life.
October 8 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia hopefully no one is "using" necrophilia....
October 8 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman So, it seems like there is a general consensus that Jews who strive to follow the Old Law have a kind of necrophiliac disorder.
October 8 at 1:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman #necrophiliagnosis?
October 8 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Daniel I don't think you're being quite provocative enough.
October 8 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Maybe try saying something like "Necrophilia, folks: it ain't hot unless it's cold."
October 8 at 1:35pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia "necrophilia - liven it up with the dead"
October 8 at 1:36pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Leaving aside that some "finite being" is said of but not found in, what about my example of a mountain, or a solar system? These seem to be finite beings in some loose sense, but aren't themselves primary substance or found in primary substance.
October 8 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so I'm looking for non-living hylomorphism
October 8 at 1:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Why not molecules and atoms?
October 8 at 1:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why? they are themselves composites, no?
October 8 at 1:39pm · Like
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Joel HF Why can't a composite be a hylomorphic substance?
October 8 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF "Composite" being said loosely.
October 8 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Living things are composed of many and varied parts.
October 8 at 1:41pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Uh, you can tell it's hump day on tNet
October 8 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia but you can't get the parts out without destroying the unity of the whole
#froginablendergnosis
October 8 at 1:43pm · Like
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Joel HF ^likewise with atoms and molecules though, no? The whole has to be destroyed to get at the parts, right?
October 8 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Yup. that's why I'm kind of looking down on hylomorphism
October 8 at 1:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Not following. For the Aristotelian account to be true, wouldn't it have to be the case that the substantial form (and hence unity) would have to be destroyed to get at the parts?
October 8 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia however, every electron (not composed of parts, so far) is indistinguishable from every other electron. they are all, kind of, "one"
October 8 at 1:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but for inorganic things, the unity isn't destroyed in the same way.
October 8 at 1:48pm · Like
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Jeff Neill "Graphene itself is a honeycomb carbon structure, an atom thick — essentially a two-dimensional substance. It has extraordinary properties of strength, pliability, and conductivity. Researchers at Columbia University estimated that it would take the weight of an elephant applied to a point the size of a pencil tip to puncture a graphene sheet just 10 microns thick." http://m.financialsense.com/.../graphene-next-supermaterial
October 8 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill The parts are the same as the whole.
October 8 at 1:51pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Like an elephant on top of a pencil on top of graphene Nd graphene all the way down
October 8 at 1:52pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple To quote Ratzinger, "relation is discovered as an equally valid primordial mode of reality." We cannot fully understand the being of anything, and especially not the inorganic, apart from its relativity to others.
That relativity is dependent upon the instances of substantial form out of which they arise, but are reflexively significant in what is constituted out of that relativity, e.g., a mountain, which is essentially a pattern of related substances.
October 8 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and turtles
October 8 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Dammit, TNET, I'm supposed to be prepping a lecture. Ergh.
October 8 at 1:53pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I thought accusing Jews of being necrophiliacs would be enough.
October 8 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But apparently you all are anti-Semitic bastards.
October 8 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman
October 8 at 1:54pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the old law avails nothing so why would I disagree with St. Paul?
October 8 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Because Christ says he didn't destroy the law.
October 8 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Also, we still follow the moral precepts of the law.
October 8 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Btw. I think I have this question resolved.
October 8 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But there are a lot of distinctions to be made.
October 8 at 1:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think the best way to think of electrons is as fields.
October 8 at 1:59pm · Like
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John Ruplinger It's over, Daniel. Finished. Superceded. Abrogated. Fulfilled. Replaced.
October 8 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But we observe the moral precepts of the Law.
October 8 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger fulfilled in the new. The Old Covenant has been replaced though.
October 8 at 2:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which covenant are you speaking of?
October 8 at 2:08pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There are several Old covenants
October 8 at 2:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Mosaic.
October 8 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Oh, well then I agree.
October 8 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The Mosaic covenant is over.
October 8 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Which is rather shocking.
October 8 at 2:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It was fulfilled in Christ, and passed away with His death.
October 8 at 2:11pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I think Lendman is just trying to boost his post count.
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Hell yeah, Brian.
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Hell
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman yeah.
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am shooting for a respectable 3rd.
October 8 at 2:12pm · Like
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Brian Kemple It also looks worse when there's a conversation with Ruplinger, since you've got pretty much the same profile picture.
October 8 at 2:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, I say that we follow the Old Law insofar as it is an expression of the Natural Law.
October 8 at 2:13pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But we are no longer UNDER the Old Law.
October 8 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Well, 43 more comments and we can get this thing to 32, 500.
October 8 at 2:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Third? Dream on, Big Angry Lendman. You'll never catch me.
October 8 at 2:18pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The only problem is that Edward Langley hasn't run stats in a long time.
October 8 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You were gone on Friday.
October 8 at 2:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I posted a lot.
October 8 at 2:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger He ran them about a week ago.
October 8 at 2:19pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple I'm anticipating something of a "promising new-comer" status. Though I tend to write longer and more detailed posts, rather than treating this thing like it's a chat room and I'm a 12 year old girl letting every thought tumble out of her head...
...unlike some unnamed others.
October 8 at 2:20pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger ouch.
October 8 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, ouch!
October 8 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman All the single men on TNET should create a new Knights Templar type order and go battle ISIS.
October 8 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Graphene is fantastical. The Universe is balancing on a sheet of graphene which has existed forever.
October 8 at 2:26pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...Brian, I see what you mean.^
October 8 at 2:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael Beitia, I think that the elements have enough unity to count as subsstances.
October 8 at 2:27pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . . modernists are the real enemy and that is first an interior battle.
October 8 at 2:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg If you have formal unity, it means you have to have a soul.
October 8 at 2:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Therefore, planets have a soul; or some other form is guiding them.
October 8 at 2:29pm · Like
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Joel HF Oh my.
October 8 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Elements have unity, as long as some angel is guiding them.
October 8 at 2:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Some have held such a position, Scott.
October 8 at 2:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, Scott, it seems like you and Michael Beitia agree!
October 8 at 2:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Well, how do atomic parts move? They have to have form.
October 8 at 2:30pm · Like
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Joel HF I don't think formal unity entails having a soul, necessarily.
October 8 at 2:31pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Everything with a soul has formal unity. What else is there that has formal unity?
October 8 at 2:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Some idea of form or substance is necessary, lest one wind up in the ditch of nominalism.
October 8 at 2:31pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Elements have formal unity.
October 8 at 2:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And no soul.
October 8 at 2:32pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm arguing all sorts of other things have a formal unity.
October 8 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am inclined to your position, Joel, it is just a lot harder to see/manifest.
October 8 at 2:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So, does an urn or painting have formal unity?
October 8 at 2:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think the case of elements is possibly the clearest of inanimate things.
October 8 at 2:34pm · Like
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Joel HF Note that this argument is prior to whether or not things are hylomorphic.
October 8 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Does the Universe have formal unity?
October 8 at 2:34pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Does a planet have formal unity?
October 8 at 2:34pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Doesn't formal unity imply a substance, and those are the things that are hard to see?
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The Universe is a haiku.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict A haiku has formal unity.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman hmm...
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Therefore the Universe has formal unity.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Is there such a thing as accidental formal unity, like a Gracean Urn.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Like I said, elements are probably the easiest to see, so maybe we should start there.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like
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Joel HF I'll also admit that nominalism seems true in a limited sense insofar as our minds are inclined to create formal unity where none exists in nature: e.g. with a statute, etc.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman and then take up your questions Scott.
October 8 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg thx
October 8 at 2:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Some statues might have formal unity, Joel...
October 8 at 2:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the formal unity of an element is math.
there I said it
#mathgnosis
October 8 at 2:36pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman not qua statue.
October 8 at 2:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia what can you say of an element, positively?
October 8 at 2:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Perhaps we could invent a new poetic form - the syllogism haiku. The hailogism. Or the sylloku.
October 8 at 2:37pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Michael Beitia, I am silenced.
October 8 at 2:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I prefer sylloku
October 8 at 2:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia it was an honest question, Daniel
October 8 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman hylomorphic hailogisms used in syllokucal manner.
October 8 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I thought you made a statement?
October 8 at 2:38pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hylogisms. The composite of logic and poetry.
October 8 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia scroll up \
October 8 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia elements have form
equational math gnosis
Autumnal jollies
October 8 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple What makes something to be united is a lack of division, and certainly not a lack of divisibility. Consequently, there are as many kinds of unity as there are ways in which a thing can be undivided. Being together in ordination to a final cause is a kind of unity. A statue has a final cause, albeit extrinsic; it therefore has an extrinsic formal unity, qua statue, and a much looser intrinsic formal unity (distinct from the extrinsic) qua material composite united through the actualities and potentialities of its constituent parts.
But I can't be bothered, guys, I'm prepping a lecture here...
October 8 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's like Lucretius in haiku
October 8 at 2:41pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Well, don't let question-begging here stop you from prepping for your lecture.
October 8 at 2:44pm · Like
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Joel HF
October 8 at 2:44pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Are you using "question-begging" in the sense of a fallacy, or in the ordinary sense of, "hey, that makes me ask about ..."?
October 8 at 2:47pm · Like
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Brian Kemple (I like to keep score of how often I'm accused of logical fallacies.)
October 8 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I'm saying that we are wondering about whether there is such a thing as a natural substance/form (of the non-living variety) or just accidental groups, ala lucretius or the materialists. I wasn't actually accusing you of a fallacy, just jokingly pointing out that saying "hey there is intrinsic form, along with other ways things can be unified" doesn't really give an argument.
October 8 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia J'accuse!
See Translation
October 8 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple Unless you take into account that the intrinsic form of many things is naturally ordained to other unities, by their very natures.
October 8 at 2:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "what is opium causes sleep?
The sleep inducing faculty whereby opium makes one sleepy"
October 8 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "the substantial form is whereby a unity can said to be one by unification"
October 8 at 2:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Sure, I think it is helpful to consider the fact that there are many different ways for things to be unified. But how do we know the hylomorphic account is true today? Particularly, how do we know it to be true of non-living things? And even prior to that, how do we know that there is such a thing as form or substance anyway?
October 8 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Now is the point where I take a cop-out and link to a paper I wrote that no one will read because A) it's too long and B) it deals with Heidegger:
https://www.academia.edu/.../Techne_Physis_and_Technology...
Techne, Physis, and Technology: Heidegger on Aristotle's Physics B.1
Faced with a world where technology aimed at the...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY BRIAN KEMPLE
October 8 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
October 8 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "A lower voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
October 8 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Brian, B is actually a good thing in my book (which probably isn't a good thing in anyone else's book)
October 8 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Maybe there's substantial formal unity, and accidental formal unity. If my memory serves me correctly, Maritain said that a painting of a person is an accidental formal unity, but my memory is becoming increasingly less formal; and I do not know if Maritain himself said it, or if it was just words in a book. If it was just words on a book, that would be just an accidental formal unity, which are informed by my mind. And my impression of those words is not infallible.
October 8 at 3:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "They are simply going to have to score more points than the other team to win the game."
October 8 at 3:04pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Would an enthyku be a truncated sylloku?
October 8 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Mathgnostism is a belief system in which all things seem to be grasped by math or "maths" in their nonessences but the various formulae function differently with the respect to the phenomena they cannot define.
October 8 at 3:13pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, what is the essence of an electron?
October 8 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here's an enthyku:
If even little
Cricket can sing song of hope
Let us be happy
October 8 at 3:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Electrons being?
if you mean mathematic
Autumnal jollies
October 8 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
HINT: a period by itself is a helpful solution to formatting issues in comments.
October 8 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia punctuation is over-rated I dont see the point of using it because it only increases the number of keystrokes I have to make my fingers only have so much life in them until such time as carpal tunnel takes over and I dont plan on wasting it using periods
October 8 at 3:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think man can posit formal unity onto non-formal (accidental) unities, in his soul, as when man views a beautiful sunset. This form may help elevate his spirit to contemplate of God. But if the scientist looks closely at the same view, he may just see accidental unities, and many of these parts may not be beautiful.
October 8 at 3:34pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger An electron is (that matter, the flow of which causes) lightening which is mixed in other matter. All things are charged with lightening matter.
October 8 at 3:42pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg
October 8 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but that isn't an essential definition, is it?
October 8 at 3:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg All forms are charged with lightening matter.
October 8 at 3:45pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Of how many things can you actually give an essential definition?
October 8 at 3:46pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger Of course not, you ironic fellow.
October 8 at 3:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg A sylloku
Forms are charged with light-
'Ning matter; man is form and
Lightening matter charged.
October 8 at 3:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, the observance of the Old Law is not merely dead but deadly....so maybe it would be more like the undead than the dead
It is disturbing how many seem to affirm that the old law is still salvific for the Jews. The adult catechism from the USCCB even made that error, but it was corrected
Bizarrely enough Wikipedia attributes the heresy of dual-covenant theology to John Paul II, even though it notes that the Vatican ordered the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults which did state that the Old Law was "eternally valid" for the Jews changed as in error. Now the passage on Jews mentions Christ....
Seems to me for all the obfuscation (even in the liturgy...the 1965 and then worse 1970 forms of the Pro Judaeis on Holy Friday), this error has more or less been laid to rest...heck the US bishop's voted on it and overwhelmingly rejected it, and Benedict's change to the 1962 Missal brilliantly avoided the same obfuscation, keeping the meaning while dropping the harsh (though completely scriptural) language of the old prayer.
October 8 at 3:54pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe The Old Law could still be valid for the Jews while still not being salvific, right?
October 8 at 3:56pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Explain
October 8 at 3:57pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz In the context it certainly read as they were fine where they were
October 8 at 3:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know about the context of the catechism. I'm thinking about early Jewish Christian communities, which still kept kosher. Couldn't you think that Jewish Christians ought to keep the Old Covenant as well as the new?
October 8 at 3:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No. It would be a mortal sin
October 8 at 4:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Does this ever happen on tNET:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=791337717571856&fref=nf
October 8 at 4:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Don't think so, Matthew J. Peterson. We don't have a responsible dog on tNET.
October 8 at 4:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz-- really?
October 8 at 4:05pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The ceremonial precepts of the old law are deadly.
S. Th I-II q. 103 a. 4 c.
I answer that, All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally. Now, though our faith in Christ is the same as that of the fathers of old; yet, since they came before Christ, whereas we come after Him, the same faith is expressed in different words, by us and by them. For by them was it said: "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son," where the verbs are in the future tense: whereas we express the same by means of verbs in the past tense, and say that she "conceived and bore." In like manner the ceremonies of the Old Law betokened Christ as having yet to be born and to suffer: whereas our sacraments signify Him as already born and having suffered. Consequently, just as it would be a mortal sin now for anyone, in making a profession of faith, to say that Christ is yet to be born, which the fathers of old said devoutly and truthfully; so too it would be a mortal sin now to observe those ceremonies which the fathers of old fulfilled with devotion and fidelity. Such is the teaching Augustine (Contra Faust. xix, 16), who says: "It is no longer promised that He shall be born, shall suffer and rise again, truths of which their sacraments were a kind of image: but it is declared that He is already born, has suffered and risen again; of which our sacraments, in which Christians share, are the actual representation."
October 8 at 4:05pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yes, it would be Judaizing. One of the heresies that the early Churched confronted
October 8 at 4:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Judaizing would be to say that keeping the Old Covenant is necessary for salvation. Paul especially addresses this in Jewish Christians who are trying to make Gentile Christians keep the Old Law.
October 8 at 4:09pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz [The Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.- Council of Florence
October 8 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Just to head off a problem...circumcision for medical reasons is different (and certainly sometimes permissible...whether always depends on your view of prophylactic surgery).
But note, it doesn't matter whether you think it is necessary for salvation, the ceremonies themselves are mere figures, fulfilled in the New covenant. To observe the figures would therefore be to act falsely.
October 8 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz As you can see, this isn't merely Aquinas or my private opinion.. the Councils are quite clear.
October 8 at 4:13pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson maybe more like this?
http://www.theguardian.com/.../kangaroos-boxing-match...
Kangaroos get into boxing match on quiet Australian street - video
Two kangaroos are caught on camera in an intense...
THEGUARDIAN.COM
October 8 at 4:13pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe The Council of Florence would have been pretty rough on the early Church.
October 8 at 4:14pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It is very cool how those kangaroos can lean back on their tails while they double kick each other.
October 8 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Australia is so weird.
October 8 at 4:17pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz How so, there is a recognition of a possibility of an interim period
As Aquinas observes over the debate on this between Jerome and Augustine
On this point there seems to have been a difference of opinion between Jerome and Augustine. For Jerome (Super Galat. ii, 11, seqq.) distinguished two periods of time. One was the time previous to Christ's Passion, during which the legal ceremonies were neither dead, since they were obligatory, and did expiate in their own fashion; nor deadly, because it was not sinful to observe them. But immediately after Christ's Passion they began to be not only dead, so as no longer to be either effectual or binding; but also deadly, so that whoever observed them was guilty of mortal sin. Hence he maintained that after the Passion the apostles never observed the legal ceremonies in real earnest; but only by a kind of pious pretense, lest, to wit, they should scandalize the Jews and hinder their conversion. This pretense, however, is to be understood, not as though they did not in reality perform those actions, but in the sense that they performed them without the mind to observe the ceremonies of the Law: thus a man might cut away his foreskin for health's sake, not with the intention of observing legal circumcision.
But since it seems unbecoming that the apostles, in order to avoid scandal, should have hidden things pertaining to the truth of life and doctrine, and that they should have made use of pretense, in things pertaining to the salvation of the faithful; therefore Augustine (Epist. lxxxii) more fittingly distinguished three periods of time. One was the time that preceded the Passion of Christ, during which the legal ceremonies were neither deadly nor dead: another period was after the publication of the Gospel, during which the legal ceremonies are both dead and deadly. The third is a middle period, viz. from the Passion of Christ until the publication of the Gospel, during which the legal ceremonies were dead indeed, because they had neither effect nor binding force; but were not deadly, because it was lawful for the Jewish converts to Christianity to observe them, provided they did not put their trust in them so as to hold them to be necessary unto salvation, as though faith in Christ could not justify without the legal observances. On the other hand, there was no reason why those who were converted from heathendom to Christianity should observe them. Hence Paul circumcised Timothy, who was born of a Jewish mother; but was unwilling to circumcise Titus, who was of heathen nationality.
The reason why the Holy Ghost did not wish the converted Jews to be debarred at once from observing the legal ceremonies, while converted heathens were forbidden to observe the rites of heathendom, was in order to show that there is a difference between these rites. For heathenish ceremonial was rejected as absolutely unlawful, and as prohibited by God for all time; whereas the legal ceremonial ceased as being fulfilled through Christ's Passion, being instituted by God as a figure of Christ.
October 8 at 4:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't understand this middle period. At what time is"the publication of the gospel" complete?
October 8 at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<The third is a middle period, viz. from the Passion of Christ until the publication of the Gospel, during which the legal ceremonies were dead indeed, because they had neither effect nor binding force; but were not deadly, because it was lawful for the Jewish converts to Christianity to observe them, provided they did not put their trust in them so as to hold them to be necessary unto salvation, as though faith in Christ could not justify without the legal observances.>> Why should this middle period be over? Why can't Jewish converts to Christianity still observe the Old Law provided they don't put their trust in it, as though faith in Christ could not justify?
October 8 at 4:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I still maintain that math does not explain physics. It is used as a tool in measurement, in numbering harmonies, in calculating equalities. Physics still uses (material or efficient) causality in the actual explanations. One needs to ask in each instance what is the relation between some mathematical formula and this specific scientific hypothesis or dogma.
October 8 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman What's new since the Book of Mormon?
October 8 at 4:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman At least observing the ceremonial precepts of the Old Law would be grave matter.
October 8 at 4:37pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I assume you mean *grave* matter
October 8 at 4:36pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman lol!
October 8 at 4:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman yes.
October 8 at 4:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Passover is celebrated in the Mass, in a more universal and complete way. When Christ celebrated the Passover in Jerusalem, the unleavened bread commemorated the haste of the departure that liberated Israel from Egypt, and the manna in the desert. It also commemorated the "cup of blessing" at the end of the Jewish Passover meal. It also brings all into participation in Christ's Passover, His death and Resurrection. He instituted the Eucharist in this way.
CCC 1340 "By celebrating the Last Supper with his apostles in the course of the Passover meal, Jesus gave the Jewish Passover its definitive meaning. Jesus' passing over to his father by his death and Resurrection, the new Passover, is anticipated in the Supper and celebrated in the Eucharist, which fulfills the Jewish Passover and anticipates the final Passover of the Church in the glory of the kingdom."
October 8 at 4:36pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman fixed.
October 8 at 4:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So what does Florence mean for Catholic Passover meal celebrations and such? Mortally sinful?
October 8 at 4:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm not sure.
October 8 at 4:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, that is why to celebrate the passover now means that one is, at least in actions, denying the efficacy of Christ's passion.
October 8 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think "mortally sinful" is defined by intent and conscience, so I wouldn't say it's that.
October 8 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There is no Passover any longer, because the Mosaic covenant has come to an end.
October 8 at 4:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott is right. Rather, one should say, "grave matter."
October 8 at 4:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Or, it might mean that you think the Passover meal, though a prefigurement of Christ's Passover, could still be celebrated as a remembrance of the flight from Egypt, which actually did happen.
October 8 at 4:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I have a lot of Jewish friends that celebrate passover though.
October 8 at 4:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Like re-enacting a part of your history?
October 8 at 4:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Right.
October 8 at 4:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Seder meal, wherein the Christological significance of the actions is remembered, is harmless.
October 8 at 4:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not re-enacting, though, commenorating
October 8 at 4:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, wouldn't Christian Jews celebrate a Seder with the Christological significance in mind?
October 8 at 4:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe In fact, wouldn't Christian Jews perform all aspects of the Old Law with the Christological significance in mind?
October 8 at 4:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Hopefully.
October 8 at 4:41pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It depends on what they are trying to do.
October 8 at 4:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Council of Florence on its surface seems to be condemning pretended converts who are secretly still practicing Judaism without Christological significance
October 8 at 4:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If they circumcise their sons for the sake of the covenant, that would be grave matter.
October 8 at 4:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe These days, since we don't have forced conversions and such, Jewish Christians would have no reason to pretend
October 8 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I like the Melkite Catholic right, they have a lot of liturgical things like the hymn of the Myrrh-bearing women that the girls act out by going under this alter in the front. It is like story-telling, but it is part of our history. It makes them feel part of a family history.
October 8 at 4:43pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The so-called false-conversoes?
October 8 at 4:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Seder meal without the sacrifice, though, is rather meaningless.
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Samantha Cohoe It's a commemoration. Not meaningless.
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Scott Weinberg I don't know. It can be meaningful for a family.
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Scott Weinberg Thanksgiving is kind of like story-telling.
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Daniel Lendman Which is why I see it as harmless for Christians, especially if it is only being done as an exercise to see the Christological significance of this historic custom.
October 8 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I don't see why it's fine for Timothy to be circumcized, but not for Jewish Christians to circumcise their sons.
October 8 at 4:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman When i said it was rather meaningless, I meant for non-Christian Jews.
October 8 at 4:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The "middle period" or whatever makes no sense to me. Where is Mr. Kenz?
October 8 at 4:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Timothy was circumcised in order to not give offense.
October 8 at 4:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The question of circumcision had yet to be clarified throughout the whole of the church.
October 8 at 4:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's scandalous to say that Paul did something sinful in order not to give offense
October 8 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It was a matter of prudence.
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Daniel Lendman Timothy was not circumcised in order to be under the covenant.
October 8 at 4:47pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Therefore, it was not sinful.
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Scott Weinberg I don't know about that.
October 8 at 4:48pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, if Jewish Christians circumcise their sons so that they will be like Daddy, then that would, probably be fine.
October 8 at 4:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Perhaps it was because he wanted to do as much as he could for that ethnic culture.
October 8 at 4:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If it is for the sake of being under the covenant...not ok.
October 8 at 4:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think it is a cultural thing.
October 8 at 4:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What if it is in order to fulfill the Old Law, while understanding the Christological significance of the Old Law? Like a the Seder meal at the Ferrier's.
October 8 at 4:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Like Catholic missionaries doing African dances during Mass.
October 8 at 4:50pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman By the way, my wife lived in Australia for a time. Kangaroos also steal backpacks, and can swim.
October 8 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe So, not to be saved by circumcision, but to fulfill a practice that prefigures Christ's salvation.
October 8 at 4:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe So weird.
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Daniel Lendman If it is to fulfill the Old Law, then you are implying that it had not been fulfilled by Christ.
October 8 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm just thinking out loud, here. Don't have a worked out position on this myself.
October 8 at 4:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I do not think circumcision is or was salvific.
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Daniel Lendman Circumcision was an occasion for grace.
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, let me re-phrase, how about "to follow a precept of the Old Law, understanding that it has been fulfilled in Christ?"
October 8 at 4:52pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg But nothing of the Old Law fulfilled the Old Law, except for Christ who was a Jew.
October 8 at 4:52pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It was the means of binding one to the Covenants of God.
October 8 at 4:52pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well circumcision is minor mutilation. To be "like daddy" doesn't seem to justify the just cause. The debate would be over prophylactic surgery
Leaving aside that "seder meals" are modeled after a practice 400 years after Christ, and usually based on Ashkenazic ceremony (as opposed to Sephardic or the Mizrahim), and therefore are a silly practice, to celebrate it as the Jews do is both offensive to Jews and a mortal sin (there are prayers that refer to the messiah to come)
October 8 at 4:52pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I think it was just an external sign for being Jewish. I am not sure if it imparted grace.
October 8 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Then, Samantha, to paraphrase St. Paul, "Would you begin in the SPirit only to end in the flesh?"
October 8 at 4:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz But a Christianized version of it may be debateable, if not done as a liturgy, but for understanding...still better would be to observe an actual seder, and not partake actively in it
October 8 at 4:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Paul is referring to those who would say that circumcision is necessary for salvation, though
October 8 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman If one is circumcised in order to follow the Old Law, then one places himself under the Old Law.
October 8 at 4:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is not clear, Samantha
October 8 at 4:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Old Law is abolished.
October 8 at 4:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Mosaic covenant has come to its term.
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Joshua Kenz As far as fulfilling the precepts of the old law...we fulfil them by observing the new law. To stubbornly cling to mere figures is disordered. The new law is the fulfilment of the old law.
To follow the old law, even if one does not claim it is necessary for salvation, is to go to the figures and shadows. In itself these practices signify something to come, but what they signify has already come, the new law. So the only way to be faithful to the law is to follow the new law. To practice the old is in a way to act falsely, since those acts themselves signify a reality to come, that has already come.
October 8 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There is, now, only the Abrahamic Davidic covenants that we participate in, Christ.
October 8 at 4:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I thought at times in the Old Testament you see that sacrifices and observances imparted grace and forgiveness of sins. But not circumcision. In the end, God said no sacrifice is pleasing, it was only all about the heart... and then the New Covenant. Conversion of heart is all that is necessary. So if observing an Old observance aids in this conversion, more power to you.
October 8 at 4:59pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Aquinas holds that circumcision imparted grace. I see no reason to disagree.
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Joshua Kenz Note that Aquinas in one sense says there is one Law, not two. The Old and New differ by proximity to the end, the New being the perfection. So the "validity" of the promises of God to the Jews remain, but it remains in the context of the New law as perfection of the Old. The Jews have a special place, which is why Paul says they will all enter the Church before the end.
October 8 at 4:59pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In so far as the Old Law (Mosaic Law) is put down as the governing principles of the Mosaic covenant, it has been abolished, because the covenant has passed away since Israel, in Christ, has died. The Mosaic law, however, did not simply govern the terms of the covenant, but stated expressly and determinately things that either are, or perhaps flow immediately from, the Natural Law. Insofar as this is the case, we FOLLOW the Mosaic Law, but we are not UNDER the Mosaic Law, since it is not something that we refuse to do, but, grace living within us, we voluntarily follow the law.
It is in this way that Paul is able to speak of "establishing the law" in Christ. There is a fundamentally new relationship between man and the Old Law. It is no longer the governing terms of a covenant, but rather it is inscribed on our hearts. This is fitting insofar as the Old Law set down the pattern of how we ought to live in communion with God.
October 8 at 4:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What does the Church say about this question?
October 8 at 4:59pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lendman, I agree about circumcision...though it is a difficult matter, one he changed his own mind on...
October 8 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So is the Old Law is inscribed on the heart of the Christian?
October 8 at 5:01pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't know about any definitive Church teaching about Old Testament Sacrifices, Scott.
October 8 at 5:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman No.^
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Scott Weinberg So then Aquinas's view is not definitive.
October 8 at 5:01pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, insofar as the Old Law was an iteration of the moral precepts that are the Natural Law, it is inscribed on the hearts of all Baptized Christians.
October 8 at 5:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Above you say the Old Law is no longer the governing terms of a covenant, but rather it is inscribed on our hearts. Wondered what you mean by that.
October 8 at 5:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I'm not sure about that.
October 8 at 5:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, it is not inscribed on Our Hearts insofar as it is the Mosaic law.
October 8 at 5:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think Gentiles had no sense of the old law.
October 8 at 5:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Mosaic Law was given to govern a covenant.
October 8 at 5:03pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And I am not sure if the natural law is what is inscibed on our hearts in the Biblical sense.
October 8 at 5:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Insofar as the Old Law was an iteration of the Natural Law, yes they did have a sense of it.
October 8 at 5:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman To say otherwise is to go contrary to St. Paul.
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Scott Weinberg The Old Law is revelation, not natural law, I thought.
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Scott Weinberg I think philosophers could have cobbled together a natural law covenant.
October 8 at 5:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes. But the Old Law iterates precepts of natural law.
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Daniel Lendman For example, "You shall not murder."
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Daniel Lendman Natural law.
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Scott Weinberg There is a dialogue between the Old Law and the Hellenic tradition, but the Old Law is from God. It is revelation. Haven't you seen the movie?
October 8 at 5:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "You shall not steal"
October 8 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Natural Law.
October 8 at 5:06pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Nope.
October 8 at 5:06pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...
October 8 at 5:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Divine Law. From I AM to Moses.
October 8 at 5:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, anyway, because of the darkness of human minds due to our fallen nature, it was expedient that even things that ought to be known by natural law should likewise be put down clearly by Divine Command, so that they could be more surely followed.
October 8 at 5:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Even so, the Old Law, lacked the ability to effect salvation.
October 8 at 5:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's what the Church teaches.
October 8 at 5:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg True.
October 8 at 5:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Only Jesus can save.
October 8 at 5:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger multiple postpadding violations.
October 8 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Jesus through Mary.
October 8 at 5:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jesu per Mariam.
October 8 at 5:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You are right Scott, I am teaching what the Church teaches.
October 8 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ad Jesum per Mariam.
October 8 at 5:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as usual
October 8 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg The Church does not teach that the Old Law is Natural Law.
October 8 at 5:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Church does not teach that the Ten Commandments are the Natural Law.
October 8 at 5:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You are right Scott.
October 8 at 5:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, the Ten Commandments can all be arrived at, by natural reason. They are in fact, precepts of natural law. However, as "Ten Commandments" they are revealed by God, and thus, more surely adhered to. For we have certainty in the word of Him who can neither deceive nor be deceived.
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Scott Weinberg The Church also teaches that "the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful."
October 8 at 5:14pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg They seem like divine law given to a nation by God so that they can live in a good way and worship God.
October 8 at 5:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Old Law was given so that the Jews might know how to be "the people of God."
October 8 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Do the Ten Commandments still govern Israel and the Jews today?
October 8 at 5:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman They ought to.
October 8 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Do they still use them today?
October 8 at 5:17pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think they do. Catholics do.
October 8 at 5:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Cough...Lendman the 3rd commandment is mixed, is it not?
October 8 at 5:18pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Interesting thing about the The Ten Commandments. The Hebrew characters that make up the words of the Ten Commandments are 633 in number, this is also the number of laws there are in Torah. The idea being that the 10 are contained in the whole and the whole in the 10.
October 8 at 5:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, you are of course right.
October 8 at 5:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I neglected the distinction.
October 8 at 5:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg And the 10 are contained in Jesus' major rule.
October 8 at 5:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I blame it on the medium.
October 8 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Goodnight TNET.
October 8 at 5:21pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Why does TAC teach so little supernatural revelation, and those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith that may be known only by supernatural faith? Why does TAC teach so little of this? To omit so much of this (like the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacraments, Grace and the Virtues) yet to claim this is Catholic sacred theology seems like heterodoxy which is heresy.
The reason I ask is that so much of our being, for eternity, will be supernatural. This is the 21st Century.
October 8 at 7:36pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Fr. John A. Hardon, SJ, (1914-2000) has been declared by the Church as a Servant of God, meaning "heroic in virtue," which is the first step on the road to possible canonization.
October 8 at 7:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Question for TNET. Can we read Euclid as presuming a continuity postulate? What is the foundation for the distinction of discrete and continuous quantity in mathematics? And if we treat mathematics, as Viete and those after him, as unifying geometry and arithmetic, treating both discrete and continuous quantity with the same postulates and propositions, is the continuity hypothesis something mathematics can ever demonstrate or must it be merely a "given" from outside mathematics itself?
October 8 at 7:35pm · Like
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Joel HF What would a continuity postulate look like?
October 8 at 7:36pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Hilbert had 3, one was redundant, so these two:
Axiom of Archimedes. If AB and CD are any segments then there exists a number n such that n segments CD constructed contiguously from A, along the ray from A through B, will pass beyond the point B.
Axiom of line completeness. An extension of a set of points on a line with its order and congruence relations that would preserve the relations existing among the original elements as well as the fundamental properties of line order and congruence that follows from Axioms I-III and from V-1 is impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_axioms...
It seems to me the issue in mathematics over "continuity" might only be resolvable outside mathematics, and is a fault of trying to unify discrete and continuous quantity.
Hilbert's axioms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hilbert's axioms are a set of 20 assumptions proposed by David Hilbert in 1899 in his book Grundlagen der Geometrie[1][2][3] (tr. The Foundations of Geometry) as the foundation for a modern treatment of Euclidean geometry. Other well-known modern axiomatizations of Euclidean geometry are those of Al…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 8 at 7:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg What's that?
October 8 at 7:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
I kill an ant . . .
and realize my three children
were watching
- Shuson Kato
October 8 at 7:52pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg So, why does TAC teach so little supernatural revelation, those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith (like the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacraments, Grace and the Virtues) which can be known by faith alone. To omit so much yet claim it teaches Catholic theology under the guidance of the Magisterium seems like the heresy of heterdoxy.
October 8 at 7:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
don't hit the fly -
he prays with his hands
and with his feet
- Issa Kobayashi
October 8 at 7:52pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict .
summer grasses -
all that remains
of warriors' dreams
- Basho Matsuo
October 8 at 7:53pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict .
this world of dew
is yes, a world of dew
and yet . . .
- Issa
October 8 at 7:54pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Here's a good one for Scott Weinberg!
letting go
of a slanderous heart -
while shelling the beans
- Hosai Ozaki
October 8 at 7:57pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Really, I have no slander. But seeing as we are going to be spending our eternity in a supernatural realm, and TAC says it teaches theology under the Magisterium, why does it teach so few of the supernatural principles of the Faith that may be known by supernatural grace alone (the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the Sacraments, Grace and the Virtues, etc.)? What is the reason behind this method? To make the claim that you are guided by the Magisterium in what you teach, yet omit these core principles, does seem to engender the heresy of heterodoxy.
October 8 at 8:10pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott, can you define the heresy of heterodoxy?
October 8 at 8:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond These haikus are beautiful little gems. I assume that they were originally written in Japanese and that these are translations. How wonderful must they be in Japanese?
October 8 at 8:11pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Yes, John, by all means. The haikus are indeed gems.
October 8 at 8:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
disgusting -
people arguing over
the price of orchids
- Shiki Masaoka
October 8 at 8:12pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Yes, these are all translations. They are otherworldly in Japanese, and they look very different.
October 8 at 8:13pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I will ask Michael Cibenko to give me some sense of them in Japanese and see how, if at all, the translations change them.
October 8 at 8:16pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Heterodoxy is the teaching of a version of the Catholic Faith that is in variance with a true version of the Faith. Now, the Catholic Faith, and its theology, are based largely and essentially on supernatural principles which may be known only by supernatural grace, not reason. In ommitting so much of this in its teaching, yet claiming that it is completely and fully Catholic, even under the authority of the Magisterium, seems to present a heterodox version of the Faith and its theology. Why does TAC do this? What is the reason behind this method? Since we spend eternity in a supernatural realm, it would seem TAC would want to teach this part of the Faith. Why does it not, and, at the same time, say it is truly Catholic?
October 8 at 8:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I have always though that Lord Basho was the master of masters, but these other writers, with whom I am not familiar, seem to match his skill.
October 8 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Slice the melon, indeed!
October 8 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
first light
everything in this room
was already here
- Christopher Herold
October 8 at 8:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict There is an underground American haiku tradition as well.
October 8 at 8:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Hmm. Not at good, say I.
October 8 at 8:21pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Agreed. Although I think they could be.
October 8 at 8:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I meant that about Herold's haiku, not the American tradition itself (which I know nothing about).
October 8 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia so we're on the ignore, not indulge stage?
and those Haikus would be better with #Autumnaljolliesgnosis
October 8 at 8:23pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict You are correct Michael.
October 8 at 8:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Autumnal jollies will never lose its place in my heart.
October 8 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger tNET purgatorial society: better to endure a seeming eternity on the unending accusation.
October 8 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Here is one of my favorites:
the warbler poops
on the slender
plum branch
- Onitsura Uejima
The haiku can often be quite funny.
October 8 at 8:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I wonder if "poops" comes close to the original. It shocks a bit in English, but perhaps that does the original justice.
October 8 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I've been reading a lot of Japanese short stories recently. I'm constantly struck by the totally alien worldview
October 8 at 8:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Say more.
October 8 at 8:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is all modern (1920-1970) stuff but I have to head out. Maybe more later
October 8 at 8:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I suspect that it does the original justice. I find it quite funny and unexpected, and haiku make very good witnesses to the surprising nature of things. I imagine the poet contemplating the lovely plum flowers and then oh! pooping bird! Hahaha
October 8 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Especially a warbler. I once saw a hooded warbler near the Museum of Science and Industry near the University of Chicago. It was worthy of a haiku had I the talent to capture the moment of its unexpected appearance.
October 8 at 8:28pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Here's a nifty American one:
After weeks of watching the roof leak
I fixed it tonight
by moving a single board
- Gary Snyder
October 8 at 8:29pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I am familiar with this one. What do you think Snyder was trying to do with this?
October 8 at 8:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond If that is the right question . . .
October 8 at 8:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That's a fine question. I might have said "What is the nature of the moment he is attempting to convey?" or "What is unsaid in this poem?" Often what is left unsaid in the haiku is as important or more than what is said.
October 8 at 8:31pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It strikes me that it is NOT about being lazy and never getting around to doing what needs to be done, though that might be one's first impression.
October 8 at 8:32pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I completely agree.
October 8 at 8:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What then? What is the moment he wants to convey? Or what is unsaid?
October 8 at 8:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I believe the poem is expressing a certain harmony with the workings of nature. That is, the man does as little as possible to interrupt what nature is doing.
October 8 at 8:33pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Zen.
October 8 at 8:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Snyder was really into Thoreau and Buddhism, and I think he's expressing the Hindu-Buddhist notion of "ahimsa," of having the least effect on nature, and thus effecting the least harm, as possible. It is also in the spirit of Basho, and his advocation of a return to nature.
October 8 at 8:35pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Back to nature! Back to nature!"
October 8 at 8:35pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Mr. Deeds' butler!
October 8 at 8:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Longfellow Deeds. The reference was more appropriate than I realized.
October 8 at 8:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Thus the "unsaid" in the poem is something like "Hey guys, I finally saw the single action I could take to interfere the least with the falling of the rain, and I think what I did is kinda like what human beings should do all the time with nature."
October 8 at 8:37pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes.
October 8 at 8:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
summer grasses -
the wheels of the locomotive
come up to a stop
- Seishi Yamaguchi
October 8 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict A lot of haiku get written about iron and steel's deference to grass and flower.
October 8 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "Wheels" here is the cutting word?
October 8 at 8:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I believe "grasses" is the kiju, actually!
October 8 at 8:44pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Explain.
October 8 at 8:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Well, aside from the fact that the translator indicated the cutting word with a dash, after the first line, that is also the place that separates the two images.
October 8 at 8:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So why the word that ends the first image rather than the word that starts the second one?
October 8 at 8:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Ah I see what you mean - perhaps this time the cutting word is after the dash!
October 8 at 8:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Interesting! I see no reason why it cannot be either word.
October 8 at 8:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The wheels, so to speak, roll in to cut between the two contrasting images.
October 8 at 8:47pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It strikes me that haiku might be a very good place to begin to teach poetry. Its utter simplicity, yet depth, might serve to encourage students who otherwise find poetry inaccessible.
October 8 at 8:49pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I have wondered about that. How early do you teach The Red Wheelbarrow? That poem is very haiku-like, being an image poem. Is it helpful to do earlier or later?
October 8 at 8:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond There is, if I may be so crude, a certain immediate satisfaction that comes from a haiku.
October 8 at 8:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I do it first thing. I did not realize until now why I have done that.
October 8 at 8:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict From a good haiku, yes. Bad haiku do fruitless damage to a young person's opinion of poetry, as has been evidenced by a few thoughts on The Thread.
October 8 at 8:52pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Then perhaps haiku would be a great place to start!
October 8 at 8:52pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. I suspect students who would dismiss it so quickly would not be reached by other forms of poetry anyway.
October 8 at 8:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Unless the other forms have got lots of philosophy and theology.
October 8 at 8:53pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Batter my heart three-personed God!
October 8 at 8:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I still can't get on board the haiku metro.
October 8 at 8:56pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict Would you like to? I railed against the haiku this summer and my friends and colleagues convinced me of its beauty and worth as a poetic form.
October 8 at 8:57pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am not railing . . . . either . . any more.
October 8 at 8:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict They took pity on my grossly ignorant despising of the lovely haiku.
October 8 at 8:59pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I was transported, as it were, up into the rays of the haiku's light, and have returned down from the clouds to bring you the good news of the haiku, John.
October 8 at 9:00pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I think Whitman's poem below, though certainly not a haiku, expresses the spirit to which the haiku aspires:
Had I the choice to tally greatest bards,
To limn their portraits, stately, beautiful, and emulate at will,
Homer with all his wars and warriors--Hector, Achilles, Ajax,
Or Shakespeare's woe-entangled Hamlet, Lear, Othello--Tennyson's fair ladies,
Meter or wit the best, or choice conceit to wield in perfect rhyme, delight of singers;
These, these, O sea, all these I'd gladly barter,
Would you the undulation of one wave, its trick to me transfer,
Or breathe one breath of yours upon my verse,
And leave its odor there.
October 8 at 9:01pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger "Batter" is a metaphor. Aristotle points out a broad definition in the rhetoric that was interesting. Of course heart is too.
October 8 at 9:05pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Wow. That Whitman bit is perfect. That's exactly what the writer of haiku is attempting to do. A haiku = one breath, one wave's effect.
October 8 at 9:04pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Do you know about the Japanese tradition of the death poem?
October 8 at 9:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Not a whit.
October 8 at 9:04pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Often a haiku, written in the moments before death, and often an effort to "say it all."
October 8 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond A much better image than "kicking the bucket"!
October 8 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ha!
October 8 at 9:05pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond A striking moment to try to slice between two images: life and death.
October 8 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Samurai, monks and poets all wrote death poems.
October 8 at 9:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Many, but not all, employed the haiku.
October 8 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger example?
October 8 at 9:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Haiku strikes me as ideal at the moment of death given its effort to link two worlds, as it were, at any given moment in time--or should I say eternity?
October 8 at 9:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Here is the death poem of Banzan, a haiku poet of Basho's time:
farewell -
I pass as all things
the dew on the grass
October 8 at 9:09pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Allen Ginsberg's death poem was also a haiku, and a very telling one:
To see Void vast infinite
look out the window
into the blue sky.
October 8 at 9:11pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger metaphor [dew that is. Actually void and sky too.]
October 8 at 9:16pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I prefer Banzan to Ginsberg here.
October 8 at 9:13pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh no question.
October 8 at 9:14pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger When not metaphors, they seem to be a comparison of some sort.
October 8 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Thanks for the help with haiku. I have to look at some "real" poems now for tomorrow's class! I'll leave you and John to determine the ultimate value of the haiku.
October 8 at 9:18pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Although this death poem is not a haiku, its level of badassery requires that I show it to you here - it's by the Zen monk Shumpo Soki.
My sword leans against the sky.
With its polished blade I'll behead
The Buddha and all of his saints.
Let the lightning strike where it will.
October 8 at 9:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Me after reading that poem: !!!!!!!!!!!!
October 8 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
October 8 at 9:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That was a book wasn't it?
October 8 at 9:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia maybe tNET is just a giant Hokku written by all the players...
October 8 at 9:22pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Ah, hokku! The classical nomenclature
October 8 at 9:24pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #gnomenclaturegnosis
October 8 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I believe those were collaborative composed of Haikus, right?
October 8 at 9:24pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The hokku was the starting verse of a renga, which was a collaborative poem written by I think at least three poets. Once people starting enjoying just the hokku by itself it became what we now call the haiku.
October 8 at 9:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Renga is a lot of fun to write as well.
October 8 at 9:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah, I'm more clear now.
October 8 at 9:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Seriously, how about that Shumpo poem? It's so metal \m/
October 8 at 9:26pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So John, what say you about the ultimate value of the haiku?
October 8 at 9:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It seems you're not quite in Edward's camp and would not designate the haiku as "worthless." But what WOULD you say?
October 8 at 9:28pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger I would have to read more. They are a mixed bag.
October 8 at 9:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But one could say the same of sonnets. They are a mixed bag. The use of a certain form does not guarantee the worth of a poem.
October 8 at 9:30pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I prefer the Japanese selections here.
October 8 at 9:30pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict In other words, there are good and bad sonnets.
October 8 at 9:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I agree with you about the selections.
October 8 at 9:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But bad sonnets are not worthless.
October 8 at 9:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict But much as the various forms of government are not good and bad in and of themselves, and yet reveal something about the kind of men abiding in them, so the form of poem the poet chooses reveals something about how he looks at the world.
October 8 at 9:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Why do you say bad sonnets are not worthless? I don't agree with that at all, haha
October 8 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And what is that in the choice of Haiku?
October 8 at 9:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Good question. I'd have to think about it, but I think a desire for simplicity must be part of it, as well as a tendency to peace, observation and wordlessness, ironically.
October 8 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger A bad Haiku vs. a bad sonnet. Doggeral even has a place.
October 8 at 9:39pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and it has form and can be useful as foil.
October 8 at 9:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.
October 8 at 9:40pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I could not resist one last attempt to say nothing. Farewell!
October 8 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict This is the way.
October 8 at 9:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Here's another of mine:
from behind grey skies
the gold sun burns off the frost -
are you awake yet?
October 8 at 9:43pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Not sure what you're saying, John! Are you praising the sonnet compared to the haiku? The haiku also has form. Not sure what you mean by "useful as foil," but if you mean it can act as an opposite of sorts that clarifies what it opposes, as in a mirror, well, the haiku can do that too in the juxtaposition of images.
October 8 at 9:45pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I think I agree that the Haiku is at rest. But is there something too momentary and fleeting in it? It seems an empty peace in revery on a moment, inane in the end.
October 8 at 9:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict What is inane about attempting to conform a moment to the true eternal Now?
October 8 at 9:47pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Or more accurately, allow the moment to conform YOU?
October 8 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger A foil to good sonnet . . . . but perhaps that works just as well for haiku.
October 8 at 9:52pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict And anyway all poems, like all created things, are momentary and fleeting. The haiku reflects that.
October 8 at 9:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Come again?
October 8 at 9:48pm · Like
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John Ruplinger i a backpeddling on what I said before.
October 8 at 9:51pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict A few more of my own composition. Notice that I'm not trying to sell you a book!
camera flash -
the eye of the future
just winked at me
soon summer will come
and the pool will be so full -
her hairpins still here
dripping water sound
new vines on old cracked fountain -
light down on her arms
October 8 at 9:52pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I am still learning how to read these too. Comparison is heavily used and (implied) metaphor often.
October 8 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Yes, the metaphors must not be explicit.
October 8 at 9:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The main thing a haiku attempts to do is convey the sense of a moment. That is hard to explain unless you have REALLY experienced moments.
October 8 at 9:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You know that meme/now common phrase that begins "That awkward moment when...etc?" That is a pop haiku. It doesn't say anything about the moment or explain it, it just lays it out before you to see and to recognize.
October 8 at 9:58pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #momentgnosis
October 8 at 9:58pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger I see.
October 8 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Basho's death poem:
on a journey, ill
my dream goes wandering
over withered fields
October 8 at 10:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You see.
October 8 at 10:01pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Try writing one. I'm telling you, it's wonderful. Like prayer.
October 8 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But I have no memory of them. #Lethegnosis
October 8 at 10:02pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Then write a haiku about that.
October 8 at 10:02pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I can see that (like prayer). They are a peaceful meditation, the good ones.
October 8 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well, it appears we have frightened off most of the denizens of TNET with all this haiku talk. Perhaps we need to begin bridging the gap between the theologians and philosophers, and the poets.
October 8 at 10:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict What is the proper relationship between poetry and philosophy? (Hint hint - think Boethius) And more to the point, why is it totally okay for some people to be much better poets than theologians?
October 8 at 10:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I don't remember Boethius #backwardabysmnongnosis.
October 8 at 10:14pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Boethius' death poem: the Consolation of Philosophy.
October 8 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 4
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John Ruplinger But I would say poets have a wider audience and provide fare for the philosopher and common man. But the theologian or philosopher can provide direction. (Good night and thanks.)
October 8 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Poets are liars.
October 8 at 10:30pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Stouffer: haiku talk, you join?
October 8 at 10:38pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Nice conference at Franny, with some TACers presenting, I notice: http://www.franciscan.edu/thepowerofbeauty/
The Power of Beauty Conference | Franciscan University of Steubenville
The webpage for the 2014 MA Philosophy Conference,...
FRANCISCAN.EDU
October 8 at 10:39pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland http://www.franciscan.edu/thepowerofbeauty/schedule/...
Conference Schedule | Franciscan University of Steubenville
(C) Sr. Mary Eucharista Gonzaga University ?Beauty and...
FRANCISCAN.EDU
October 8 at 10:40pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
Sorrowful music cleanses the soul;
Its flood of teardrops unnumbered
cover sweetness untold.
When the clouds break,
And our tears flow away;
They leave behind blossoms
On the meadows of May.
October 8 at 10:45pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But who lie worse, Joel: philosophers or poets? (and shall we include theologians? Corruptio optimorum, pessima)
October 8 at 10:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 8 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
3765 Michael Beitia
3132 Edward Langley
2955 Samantha Cohoe
2832 Daniel Lendman
2311 Scott Weinberg + Peregrine
2139 John Ruplinger
1591 Scott Weinberg
1417 Joel HF
1339 Matthew J. Peterson
1319 Isak Benedict
1076 Joshua Kenz
October 8 at 11:30pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Edward Langley .
1054 Jeff Neill
782 Jehoshaphat Escalante
720 Peregrine Bonaventure
693 John Ashman
689 Jeffrey Bond
557 Catherine Ryland
468 Daniel P. O'Connell
461 Pater Edmund
451 John Boyer
378 Jody Haaf Garneau
October 9 at 12:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Edward Langley .
296 Lauren Ogrodnick
295 Michael Bolin
269 Nina Rachele
235 Adrw Lng
233 Megan Baird
207 Frank Morris
173 Sam Rocha
170 Sean Robertson
159 Aaron Gigliotti
151 Tim Cantu
October 8 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer There in the mist of being
October 8 at 11:32pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer slide the tendrils of a tree
October 8 at 11:33pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer its fruits both good and evil
October 8 at 11:34pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer and happy meal makes three
October 8 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer ok, so if I were asked to interpret that, it would go like this
October 8 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer yes, there is all of this buzzing of matter, anti-matter
October 8 at 11:35pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Stouffer expanding cosmos
October 8 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer omniscience
October 8 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer distributors of malfeasance
October 8 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer & for the biggest speed bump, and the most important consideration
October 8 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer for the welfare of humanity and being godly on earth as it is in heaven
October 8 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer some people lead lives of not quiet desperation
October 8 at 11:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer but of clutching for infinitude in finite material
October 8 at 11:38pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Stouffer and it's not even classy stuff
October 8 at 11:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer they shop at Walmart
October 8 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer and they suck at driving
October 8 at 11:39pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley The graph is now closer to linear growth, unfortunately.
October 8 at 11:39pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer So there are methods to intellectual pursuit, akin to wooing women, I suppose
October 8 at 11:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer I have grown to appreciate the rigor and aptitude and such
October 8 at 11:42pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer but for me, it comes down to does it benefit others in a beneficial way
October 8 at 11:43pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer so back to the tree, bearing fruits, bearing fruits for the harvest...all that
October 8 at 11:43pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer ugh
October 8 at 11:43pm · Like
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Jeff Stouffer time for a swig of Cognac
October 8 at 11:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Stouffer cheers
October 8 at 11:44pm · Like
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Nina Rachele how am I still on that list let me watch my Korean dramas in peace...
October 8 at 11:49pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Glad I've managed to remain at the bottom. I am definitely a consumer when it comes to TNETing.
October 8 at 11:52pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, Isak, I was away, but just read through your haiku discussion with Ruplinger. Very interesting.
October 8 at 11:53pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Funny that in that conference above (posted by Catherine) the speaker will be Roger Scruton. I just had dinner with him this evening!
October 8 at 11:54pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Haha Big Angry Lendman!! You'll have to do better than that!!
October 8 at 11:55pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley 170 Sean Robertson
October 8 at 11:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I pretend to be triumphant, but every time one of these lists comes out, I'm filled with shame and dread.
October 8 at 11:58pm · Edited · Like · 8
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Edward Langley I dunno, Samantha, it's not like tNET is, on average, a waste of time . . . but then I'm not homeschooling my son yet.
October 8 at 11:57pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Haha I feel the same way Samantha
October 8 at 11:57pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Edward, It's true, and I have actually learned a lot from tNET, as well as working out a number of spiritual and psychological issues that had been troubling me.
October 8 at 11:59pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley ^deciding to "like" that comment is a difficult thing.
October 9 at 12:01am · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson I also notice a venerable TNETer (Erik Bootsma) on the conference schedule. Although it says he's from Notre Dame, when clearly his more important credential is Creator of the TNET page.
October 9 at 12:01am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahahaha
October 9 at 12:01am · Like
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Adrw Lng Miraculously, tNet is equally meaningful and frivolous still this far along
October 9 at 12:03am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson .
Autumnal jollies
#autumnaljolliesgnosis
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 12:04am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng It is legislatively possible to repair the issues of the republic, or will it come through other means? Discuss.
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/.../the-us-is-over...
Creative Minority Report: The U.S. Is Over, Get Used To It
Many people are understandably dismayed by the the...
CREATIVEMINORITYREPORT.COM
October 9 at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson A study at the University of London found that participants who multitasked during cognitive tasks experienced IQ score declines that were similar to what they'd expect if they had smoked marijuana or stayed up all night. IQ drops of 15 points for multitasking men lowered their scores to the average range of an 8-year-old child.
So the next time you're writing your boss an email during a meeting, remember that your cognitive capacity is being diminished to the point that you might as well let an 8-year-old write it for you.
https://www.linkedin.com/.../20141008153512-50578967...
Multitasking Damages Your Brain and Your Career, New Studies Suggest
You've likely heard that multitasking is problematic, but...
LINKEDIN.COM
October 9 at 12:18am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Edward you're wrecking my ratings by counting JA separately from Jehoshaphat
October 9 at 12:22am · Like · 5
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Edward Langley Fixed
October 9 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Causal Substitution and Omnipotence: Discuss
October 9 at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, this is interesting:
Clickbait version: http://www.vox.com/.../chickens-breeding-farming-boilers...
Serious version: http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/.../26/ps.2014-04291.abstract
Chickens have gotten ridiculously large since the 1950s
What breeding can do, in one glorious picture.
VOX.COM
October 9 at 12:25am · Like · Remove Preview
Edward Langley
October 9 at 12:26am · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson I think we can all agree that Pater Edmund has the best comment:impact ratio. His numbers are staggeringly low considering how much impact he has had on TNET discussions.
October 9 at 12:31am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Only quantities can be in ratios, Sean, haven't you done Freshman math?
October 9 at 12:32am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson You can't expect me to remember things I learned FOUR years ago, can you?
October 9 at 12:39am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley I remember, and it was six years ago for me.
October 9 at 12:42am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson I was going to send in a slightly revised senior thesis to that conference, b ut I didn't have time and probably wouldn't have been able to go with my schedule here anyhow.
October 9 at 12:42am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I'm going to assume that by "my schedule here", you mean your full-time commitment to your vocation as moderator of TNET.
October 9 at 12:45am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Edward Langley: looks like Scott W has some stats that need collapsing as well
October 9 at 12:45am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley I marked him in three times, just to be careful.
October 9 at 12:45am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson bwhahaha...no I teach 4 classes at two institutions 40 city miles apart + two other paid gigs + job apps and multiple writing projects.
Sadly, this is virtually my only recreational outlet.
October 9 at 12:46am · Unlike · 4
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Engaged in in bursts on the fly while moving along
October 9 at 12:47am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Which is why I post the linkedin article. Posting here or anywhere for me is usually while doing other things, so I may as well be an 8 year old or high as a kite.
October 9 at 12:50am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Haha, yes I have gathered that you have a very busy real life. Grad school affords me time to read TNET that you surely do not have.
October 9 at 12:54am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson It is hard to type well with dead mosquitoes on your fingertips while trying to keep your keyboard clean.
October 9 at 12:55am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson SW Florida?
October 9 at 12:55am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Yup.
October 9 at 12:55am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Yah, apparently I'm not too busy...because...according to that list...
October 9 at 12:56am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Where mosquitoes are the official state bird.
October 9 at 12:56am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson But tNET is a jealous god.
October 9 at 12:56am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson True that.
October 9 at 12:57am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson I thought I had conquered the Book of Faces. And then tNET arose, and conquered me. Ruining chances of tenure and my reputation among thousands of bewildered and disgusted silent stalkers. Etc. Demanding curation.
October 9 at 12:57am · Like · 6
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson The Book of the Sorrowful Faces always has another mutation of its virus to throw at you.
October 9 at 12:59am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Call no man free from Facebook until he is dead.
October 9 at 1:00am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew I bet tNET gets you a job.
October 9 at 1:07am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell Just call it a research project in the political philosophy of social media and you'll totes get a job.
October 9 at 1:08am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Looking up American haiku. Some of these are truly terrible.
October 9 at 1:11am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson e.g.:
mating dragonflies—
my overuse
of dashes
October 9 at 1:13am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Daniel P. O'Connell: I've already done plenty of real world shtuff there. City Attorney threatened to sue me. Interview with the LAT, cited in Forbes and a few other nationals. Viral a few times before that was a word. But. Yeah. Still mess around with it. We'll see.
Problem is in order to play with the big academic dawgs, at some point you have to go all in. I would love to be at that point.
October 9 at 1:13am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell Basho is really one of the masters of the genre. This book helped me to understand what he was really about:
http://www.amazon.com/Basho-His.../dp/0804725268
Basho and His Interpreters: Selected Hokku with Commentary
This book has a dual purpose. The first is to present in a...
AMAZON.COM
October 9 at 1:16am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell Matthew J. Peterson, I did not know that. Lawsuits threatened? Sounds ugly.
October 9 at 1:16am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Threatened by a corrupt as hell lawyer, yes. We slapped him down with a fantastic letter from our own bad LAT representing, 1st amendment attorney. And that went all over the internets and made him look like a fool. Then I started investigating him. Heh. I'm sure he paid out a lot of money to get those blog posts deep down in the google rankings. I will still take him down if I get the chance.
October 9 at 1:21am · Edited · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Daniel, if I had the money and the time, that looks like a great read.
October 9 at 1:21am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson Municipal corruption: like shooting fish in a barrel if you want to go get after it.
October 9 at 1:21am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew you should know my friend the anti-corruption commando Frank Avila
October 9 at 1:25am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Holy Moses why do I have 43 notifications?!?
October 9 at 1:33am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I may have liked a number of your comments.
October 9 at 1:35am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I have a (bad?) habit of going back several hours on TNET and reading down, liking things merrily as I go.
October 9 at 1:36am · Unlike · 8
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I think it was the haiku discussion.
October 9 at 1:37am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell #autumnaljollies?
October 9 at 1:44am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson All this talk of autumnal jollies just makes me sad that I haven't seen autumn in 5 years, since southern CA and FL don't have seasons.
October 9 at 1:50am · Unlike · 3
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell It's quite beautiful in Michigan this year with the leaves turning now. It reminds me that autumn is my favorite season with Spring a close second.
October 9 at 1:52am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell 'Night lads (and ladies).
October 9 at 1:52am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Ever green
Florida casts its glower on
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 1:56am · Edited · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict I wrote a simplified version of a renga, a Japanese collaborative poem, with two friends tonight at Union Barrelhouse. I will post it tomorrow.
October 9 at 2:04am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict So close to 33,000...
October 9 at 2:16am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Maybe I should just post 37 more haiku! Do it all by myself!
October 9 at 2:16am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Challenge accepted
Do they have to be good ones?
Off to a bad start
October 9 at 2:32am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
TNET sleeps soundly
But alone in the abyss
I soldier onward
October 9 at 2:34am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
we are here a day
before the grand opening -
where are my keys?
October 9 at 2:35am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
TNET flirts with fate -
one perpetual eyebrow
raised at all comments
October 9 at 2:36am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
it's all behind you -
waves leaving foam on the shore
red sky, the gulls, sand
October 9 at 2:38am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
saxophone music -
a California sunset
and a neon sign
October 9 at 2:38am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Resting on cloudbed
cut myself repeatedly
slicing a melon
October 9 at 2:39am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
I want to have kids
so I can play pirate again -
hand me that compass
October 9 at 2:39am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Adrw Lng TNET simply is
Our comments pass
It perpetually remains
October 9 at 2:39am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Excellent Sean - you're getting the hang of it
October 9 at 2:40am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Adrw I very much appreciate your disregarding of the syllable count. A sign of insight into the haiku nature.
October 9 at 2:41am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson You broke the pattern
random comments not allowed
thank you, however
October 9 at 2:41am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Only 24 more...
October 9 at 2:41am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
oops oops oops oops oops -
my bad, my bad, my very bad
sorry so sorry
October 9 at 2:42am · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I'm too rigid to disregard the count. True of more than just haiku for me.
October 9 at 2:43am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Has it been more than four hours you've been suffering from that condition Sean? You might want to pay the doctor a visit
October 9 at 2:43am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I find comfort in the poetic structure.
October 9 at 2:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson *facepalm*
October 9 at 2:44am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Comfort, but no relief apparently...
October 9 at 2:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I walked into that one...
October 9 at 2:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Good thing no one else did...
October 9 at 2:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Seriously though we got this.
October 9 at 2:46am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
the soft lamp lit now
moths begin to attend it -
look! my many ways
October 9 at 2:46am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Isak has begun
TNET degeneration about
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 2:47am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman You're doing it Isak! You're doing it!
October 9 at 2:48am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict No Daniel - WE'RE doing it!
October 9 at 2:48am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
Sean may or may not
suffer from a hard case of
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 2:49am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
TNET statpadding
Beautiful poems at work
Shameless waste
October 9 at 2:49am · Edited · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I think that one of the principle things to recall when evaluating TAC's curriculum is that it is not a theology program.
October 9 at 2:50am · Unlike · 6
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman It is a liberal arts degree.
October 9 at 2:50am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict I think you should get comment 33,000 Sean - you haven't landed a milestone comment yet have you?
October 9 at 2:50am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Some people seem to forget about this.
October 9 at 2:50am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Isak may or may not
just be trying to get a
rise out of me
October 9 at 2:51am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I will not take 33,000
October 9 at 2:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict .
magisterium
heterodox heresy -
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 2:51am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Do it Sean!!
October 9 at 2:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
33,000
has it all been worth it guys?
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 2:56am · Edited · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Oh, I know. But you just stole 33,000.
October 9 at 2:52am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson I just couldn't resist the pun.
October 9 at 2:52am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Not at all Sean, it was all in good fun and nope look again
October 9 at 2:52am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict I heartily approve. Now that we have passed our mark for the night, however, I believe I shall try to commence the catching of a Z or two. Multiple Zs if I can.
October 9 at 2:54am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Goodnight, Sweet Prince.
October 9 at 2:54am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Flights of angels et cetera.
October 9 at 2:54am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson There, now it's more worthy of a landmark.
October 9 at 2:56am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict A veritable monument to...human folly? G'night TNET!
October 9 at 2:57am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
I too must retire
Sleep well TNET sleep well
Badly will I snooze
October 9 at 2:58am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia morning wake up call
leaves turning red and yellow
autumnal jollies
October 9 at 8:16am · Like · 7
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia it a shame though, I miss the overnight wanton flights of speculation. How else am I going to wake up one morning and find out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Which order of the angelic hierarchy pushes the crystalline spheres around? Does man-faced ox progeny have a rational soul?
October 9 at 8:33am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
John Ashman What is the Church position on natural rights? Do people have a right to sin? Or are they to be stopped from committing moral suicide?
October 9 at 9:39am · Like
--##--%%--##--
John Ashman Poke ^^^^
October 9 at 9:39am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia it seems that man-faced ox progeny have rational souls, because from a deficiency of strife and and excess of love, the admixture of fire and water produces the material necessary to receive a rational form.
October 9 at 9:42am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Daniel P. O'Connell Hey, 30,000 — nice work y'all.
October 9 at 9:46am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe I'm going to make gnocchi today.
October 9 at 10:37am · Edited · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe http://foodnouveau.com/.../how-to-make-gnocchi-an.../
How to Make Gnocchi: An Illustrated, Step-by-Step Recipe with Video | Food Nouveau
How to Make Gnocchi: An Illustrated, Step-by-Step...
FOODNOUVEAU.COM
October 9 at 10:04am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe #gnocchignosis
October 9 at 10:37am · Edited · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia #gnosis has to be one of my favorite tNET trends. It ranks waaaay above Scott's groundless accusations. (although his name calling is probably a close third...)
October 9 at 10:06am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe So are Scott's groundless accusations your second favorite?
October 9 at 10:10am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe My second favorite might be haikus, although they are a new thing in tNET world.
October 9 at 10:11am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia no, those are way down on the list. the deja vu kind of nauseates me. I would probably go:
1 #gnosis
2 haiku
3 being called names
.....
97 groundless accusations
October 9 at 10:11am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe For me, it's 1. #gnosis
2. haiku
3. Matthew J. Peterson whining about how tNET has ruined his life
.....
50. People flipping out at Scott
51.People patiently remonstrating with Scott
....
99. groundless accusations
October 9 at 10:17am · Edited · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF 1. #gnosis
2. Pulling Matt's beard about subjects various and sundry
...
999. groundless accusations
October 9 at 10:19am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe being called names would be considerably lower for me. Michael, you are weird.
October 9 at 10:20am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF I will say Scott>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ashman.
October 9 at 10:21am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe He's not even on the list.
October 9 at 10:21am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Man-faced Ox progeny explain why people suspect there is polygenesis.
October 9 at 10:36am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Neill No more haikus.
October 9 at 10:40am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Neill No more young earther
October 9 at 10:42am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Jeff Neill "Well it says here in the bible that God is a lion, so we know that CS Lewis got something right." (Down with literalacy!)
October 9 at 10:45am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe Who are you even quoting, Jeffie?
October 9 at 10:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia Well, Samantha, I don't take the internet seriously, as I have a thick troll hide, and so the name calling makes me laugh, especially the more upset the interlocutor gets....
October 9 at 10:56am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman “The human nature of all men is one; Christ's taking to himself the one human nature of man is an event which affects every human being; consequently human nature in every human being is henceforward Christologically characterized.”
-Ratzinger
October 9 at 10:59am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia Jeffie hates haikus
he's lacking poet-gnosis
Autumnal jollies
October 9 at 11:02am · Edited · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Polygenesis.
A man-faced ox progeny?
Pius, Pray for us.
October 9 at 11:06am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
John Ruplinger 1. china cracks. paint vir -
2. -too delicate as you will
3. tantrums in teapots
October 9 at 11:25am · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Morning coffee made
Nineteen notifications
TNET likes haiku
October 9 at 11:20am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia Five haikus written
in a row on tNET now
#poeticgnosis
October 9 at 11:24am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson .
Michael your status
about no #stoplightgnosis
made me laugh out loud
October 9 at 11:27am · Edited · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia I can't help it. I obsessively count. Makes Rosary easy to keep track of, however.
October 9 at 11:29am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Nice.
October 9 at 11:30am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Also, I think we are butchering an art form.
October 9 at 11:30am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Pre-lecture Kebaps
Our Austrian way of life.
#ITIgnosis
October 9 at 11:31am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Also, in writing that last one, I realized I'm not sure if your last name is 2 syllables or 3.
October 9 at 11:31am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman It is a weird Basque name.
October 9 at 11:31am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Whatever you think it is, is wrong.
October 9 at 11:31am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Bay-tee-a, or Bay-shah?
October 9 at 11:32am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I think it might be Bullshit
October 9 at 11:33am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman ...I mean..
October 9 at 11:33am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Sorry.
October 9 at 11:33am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I just made fun of your name.
October 9 at 11:33am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman That was low.
October 9 at 11:33am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman My name often is mistakenly pronounced "Lemon"
October 9 at 11:33am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman "Hey! There's Lemon!"
October 9 at 11:34am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Now we are even.
October 9 at 11:34am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I made fun of my name, now.
October 9 at 11:34am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia It is Bay-tee-uh
and it is only bullshit if named per operationem
October 9 at 11:36am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Oh, by the way.
October 9 at 11:37am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman The above is #postnumberspaddinggnosis
October 9 at 11:38am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Or, what I like to call #passingSamantha.
October 9 at 11:38am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia you might catch Samantha.
October 9 at 11:38am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Daniel is shamelessly trying to catch up to Samantha for the right to sit at Michael's right hand side on the TNET comments throne.
October 9 at 11:40am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia considering no one ever has pronounced my name correctly on the first try (well, not no one, but pretty much) it will take more than vulgarity to pierce this troll hide
October 9 at 11:40am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson Heh, whoops, page didn't refresh, but I was right.
October 9 at 11:41am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia well, left hand, Edward already has the right
October 9 at 11:41am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Everything I do, I do in an epic way.
October 9 at 11:41am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman #epicwaygnosis
October 9 at 11:41am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman By the way,
October 9 at 11:42am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I predict that the great social experiment of "gender spectrum" and its consequences will destroy our society and likely provoke a terrible reaction.
October 9 at 11:42am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson You mean the stats man is in second place in the stats? Seems suspicious....
October 9 at 11:42am · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia who will police the policemen themselves?
October 9 at 11:42am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia but Daniel, doesn't it seem like there is a little truth to "spectrum" in terms of people's personality?
October 9 at 11:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman http://www.nationalreview.com/.../school-told-call-kids...
Katherine Timpf - School Told to Call Kids ‘Purple Penguins’ Because ‘Boys and Girls’...
NATIONALREVIEW.COM
October 9 at 11:44am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia as with anything, it can be carried to absurd extremes.
October 9 at 11:45am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman “Always ask yourself . . . ‘Will this configuration create a gendered space?"
October 9 at 11:45am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Erik Bootsma Personality perhaps, but when it comes to biology, seems pretty binary to me. You may bring up the occasional hermaphrodite, but an aberration is just that, an aberration.
October 9 at 11:46am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Sean Robertson
October 9 at 11:46am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Erik Bootsma Using the example a person who was born without an arm doesn't mean there are now two kinds of people, "two-armed" and "one-armed".
October 9 at 11:47am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman My wife was a tom-boy growing up. In today's culture she would have likely been told that she "identifies as male" and if she had "progressive" parents, they might have given her a sex change operation.
October 9 at 11:48am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley
October 9 at 11:50am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman In Austria they don't do that to chickens.
October 9 at 11:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman The food, on the whole, is of very good quality.
October 9 at 11:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman There are only 8,000,000 people in Austria.
October 9 at 11:51am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman If we could get 5,000,000 Catholics to come here, we could totally take this country back and reinstate the Hapsburg Emporer.
October 9 at 11:52am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley I think that picture is actually primarily the result of selective breeding.
October 9 at 11:53am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia I'm not sure how hard to pursue this.
October 9 at 11:53am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman And injected hormones.
October 9 at 11:53am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman And other things.
October 9 at 11:53am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley No, the point of the study was to see how the breeds have changed
October 9 at 11:54am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/.../26/ps.2014-04291.abstract
October 9 at 11:54am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Chickens from chicken ranches today are disgustingly treated.
October 9 at 11:54am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Free the chickens!
October 9 at 11:54am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Don't give me facts, Edward.
October 9 at 11:55am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman I think with my gut.
October 9 at 11:55am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Edward Langley http://www.vox.com/.../chickens-breeding-farming-boilers...
Chickens have gotten ridiculously large since the 1950s
What breeding can do, in one glorious picture.
VOX.COM
October 9 at 11:55am · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Edward Langley In just 50 years or so, chickens have been bred to be much bigger. The image above comes from a study done by researchers at the University of Alberta, Canada, who raised three breeds of chickens from different eras in the exact same way and measured how much they ate and how they grew. This allowed them to see the genetic differences between the breeds without influences from other factors like food or antibiotic use. They recently published their results in Poultry Science.
October 9 at 11:55am · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (That'll have to do, since I can't get direct access to the study)
October 9 at 11:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, over-breeding is bad too.
October 9 at 11:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Give me skinny chickens, damnit!
October 9 at 11:56am · Like
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Edward Langley I don't know
October 9 at 11:58am · Like
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Edward Langley I'm generally skeptical of fads
October 9 at 11:58am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Great news tNET. Sorry to interupt the Chicken dialogue. But it appears an epic poem has been written in the past 100 years:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/177439
Lepanto by G. K. Chesterton : The Poetry Foundation
White founts falling in the courts of the sun, / And the...
POETRYFOUNDATION.ORG
October 9 at 11:59am · Like
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Joel HF I'm not a fan of Chesterton's poetry, though I've yet to attain to an Elliot Milco level of gk haterdom.
October 9 at 12:06pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Also, I hate dogs.
October 9 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You folks making lists of favorite things about TNET - don't forget the brilliant photoshopping!
October 9 at 12:09pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson GKC is great! If I could only choose one poet to read for the rest of my life, I don't think it would be him, because I can only take certain doses of him at a time, but he has some great stuff.
October 9 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, happy Feast of Bl. John Henry Newman, TNET.
October 9 at 12:10pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I love the lists. I wish the whole darn thing was more searchable, because I bet there were other fun elements or trends to include - they're just too far back in the stone ages of TNET to recover.
October 9 at 12:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Daniel, I think calling them penguins is discriminatory against hermaphrodite ducks. Write, protest, quack, march, waddle. The ducks will not tolerate this.
October 9 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And what shall we say of the platypus? The poor platypus. He's made of the leftover parts that fell on the floor of God's workshop. The egg-laying beaver-duck. The pre-op transvestite of the animal kingdom.
October 9 at 12:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Joel HF. I hear you about GKC. He is very popular at Christendom, and I argued with people a lot about him. (Imagine that.) But I love him now, for what he did, for what he tried to do. I like his poetic view of creation. That is rare.
October 9 at 12:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I can't handle it. THEY ARE RAISING PENGUINS IN NEBRASKA. These people need to be locked up. Did anyone else see the thinkspeakism: "Center for Gender Sanity"?
October 9 at 12:29pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I did not so much want to promote GKC with the post, but to spread the news that an epic poem has been written in the past 100 years. "Lepanto" is kind of short for en epic. I don't know if there is a length requirement. Is there an epic haiku?
October 9 at 12:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Epiku?
October 9 at 12:23pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It has been suggested before that TNET itself is in fact an epic haiku.
October 9 at 12:25pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I sing of tNET,
Buffeted by Juno's wrath,
Latium at last.
October 9 at 12:25pm · Like
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Edward Langley ^ mechanist
October 9 at 12:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley Animals aren't made out of pre-fab parts
October 9 at 12:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley tNET is a surrealist play.
October 9 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley [exit, pursued by a bear]---Shakespeare, The Winter's Tale
October 9 at 12:29pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "Ballad of the White Horse" = *modern* epic
October 9 at 12:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Indeed, this seems to be more of an epic.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1719/1719-h/1719-h.htm
The Ballad of the White Horse, by G.K. Chesterton
This ballad needs no historical notes, for the simple reason that it does not profess to be historical. All of it that is not frankly fictitious, as in any prose romance about the past, is meant to emphasize tradition rather than history. King Alfred is not a legend in the sense that King Arthur may…
GUTENBERG.ORG
October 9 at 12:35pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Derek Walcott's "Omeros" is definitely a modern epic. It's good too.
October 9 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict http://www.amazon.com/Omeros.../dp/0374523509/ref=sr_1_1...
Omeros
A poem in five books, of circular narrative design, titled with the Greek name for Homer, which simultaneously charts...
AMAZON.COM
October 9 at 12:37pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley You may not speak badly of the Ballad of the White Horse.
October 9 at 12:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley Chesterton hate = Hipster Catholicism
October 9 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But Chesterton was a hipster.
October 9 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ballads can be Epics
October 9 at 12:38pm · Like
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Edward Langley He's become mainstream since he died
October 9 at 12:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley My attempt to be a hipster is to like all the things that normally skip a generation . . .
October 9 at 12:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/177933
from Omeros by Derek Walcott : The Poetry Foundation
BOOK SIX / / Chapter XLIV
POETRYFOUNDATION.ORG
October 9 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dang, those gnocchi took forever
October 9 at 12:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak-- your photoshopping would be somewhere in the 20s, on my list
October 9 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Gnocchi is awesome. I hope they were home made.
October 9 at 12:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If I fall to Big Angry Lendman, I will blame the gnocchi
October 9 at 12:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, you have insulted me for the last time!!
October 9 at 12:43pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Walcott seems impressionistic. I wonder if the modern epic replaces impression with experience.
October 9 at 12:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How dare you imply I would buy store bought gnocchi!?!
October 9 at 12:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Of course they were home made! My grand mother. (haiku)
October 9 at 12:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Store bought, vacuum packed Gnocchi, is... tragic.
October 9 at 12:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I had Gnocchi in a restaurant in NJ. They said it was fresh. It wasn't. I had to send it back. I cannot even talk about it.
October 9 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict TNET, have I already asked you for novella recommendations? I think I might have, and gotten a few suggestions, but I'm asking again just to see if anyone has any must-reads under 40,000 words or so.
October 9 at 12:54pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Look at all the beasts in the Divine Comedy!
The hour of time, and the delicious season;
But not so much, that did not give me fear
A lion's aspect which appeared to me.
And a she-wolf, that with all hungerings
Seemed to be laden in her meagreness,
And many folk has caused to live forlorn!
E'en such made me that beast withouten peace,
Which, coming on against me by degrees
Thrust me back thither where the sun is silent.
October 9 at 12:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Death of Ivan Ilyich was mentioned already, right?
October 9 at 12:59pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Amerika by Franz Kafka...
The Ordeal of Gilbery Pinfold by Evelyn Waugh
Rasellais by Sam Johnson
The Stranger by Albert Camus
It is funny how these three stories seem to be kind of the same general story retold. Amerika is hilarious.
October 9 at 1:01pm · Like
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Joel HF 'Most anything by Flannery O'Connor.
October 9 at 1:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Kafka was so painfully sensitive, pained by the simplest of things, to the point of being comical. In Amerika, he describes the statue of liberty as holding a sword, instead of a lantern.
October 9 at 1:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Read that one, Samantha! Great story.
October 9 at 1:03pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF The Kreutzer Sonata.
October 9 at 1:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^fascinating though horrible read
October 9 at 1:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hadji Murad
October 9 at 1:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Cat and Mouse by Gunter Grass. A couple of paragraphs should be redacted, but pretty unique and special.
October 9 at 1:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hadji Murad is also Tolstoy, but quite a departure from his usual subjects
October 9 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Excellent. I'm going to do National Novel Writing Month and I want to read a few more outstanding novellas or short novels before then.
October 9 at 1:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Death in Venice, T. Mann.
October 9 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict ^Beautiful.
October 9 at 1:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What is National Novel Writing Month?
October 9 at 1:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Death Comes for the Archbishop by Cather.
October 9 at 1:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^too long, though, right?
October 9 at 1:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict www.nanowrimo.com
October 9 at 1:07pm · Like
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Joel HF Is The Call of Cthulhu long enough to count?
October 9 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Amerika and Death Comes For The Archbishop are great - both longer than what I'm looking for.
October 9 at 1:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm looking for things longer than The Strange Tale of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but shorter than The Great Gatsby.
October 9 at 1:08pm · Like
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Joel HF I forget exactly how long it is, but I think this one is long enough (plus it is awesome!) "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" by Gene Wolfe.
October 9 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Isak, last night Roger Scruton recommended I read Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground, which is only just over 100 pages. Not sure if you've read it before or not, but it might fit the bill.
October 9 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Actually, to be more accurate, he first recommended I read his own novel called Notes from Underground, and then recommended Dostoevsky's.
October 9 at 1:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Never heard of the Wolfe one. I love Notes from the Underground!
October 9 at 1:12pm · Like
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Joel HF How long is Silas Marner, by George Elliot? It might be too long.
October 9 at 1:14pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wow it's been years since I read that one. I barely remember it.
October 9 at 1:14pm · Like
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Joel HF Looks like Silas Marner is too long.
October 9 at 1:15pm · Like
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Joel HF It is still awesome, though.
October 9 at 1:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Wow The Fifth Head of Cerberus looks great! I love good sci-fi.
October 9 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^Don't spoil it for yourself--though even if you have, it would still reward reading.
October 9 at 1:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No I just looked at the Amazon page.
October 9 at 1:17pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I love gnocchi.
October 9 at 1:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Even when Samantha misspells it.
October 9 at 1:17pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "Far out from Earth, two sister planets, Saint Anne and Saint Croix, circle each other in an eternal dance. It is said a race of shapeshifters once lived here, only to perish when men came. But one man believes they can still be found, somewhere in the back of the beyond."
October 9 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Gotta read it.
October 9 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg By the way, my dear good friends, I am writing a novella. I plan on completing it after I finish a devotional to Mary. It will be about 17,000 words, its form is taking shape. It is about the adventures of a refugee in America. It is titled "Amerigo: the boy who was found". Here is some of it, from the beginning.
...
She came in on the ship last night. Her dress is blue, her blouse is white. She came in on the ship last night.
He can see her through the gray hats. And when she looks up, she sees him. Amerigo, the lost boy, then and now.
She came in on the ship last night.
...
Apparently, his testimony had set off a fire storm. It was a message the media had never heard before. And one of their reporters had seized upon it: a cub reporter, looking or a headline. This reporter, who shall go un-named for the time being, had cut his teeth, so to speak, on political campaigns in Virginia where he had acquired the skill of drawing attention to a word or two, in order to put down political opponents, advance an initiative, or propel a local issue to the national media. But this was his first real story, his first real job and steady pay check.
And so it was that Amerigo's unscripted remark made its way to the top of the news that weekend. It was a simple response he had given to a question posted by an Honorable Gentleman from the Great State of Kansas. This Congressman praised Amerigo for his determination, then asked how it was that he able to not lose his hope during his lengthy ordeal in the refigee camp.
"I was able to not lose hope because I remained chaste," was Amerigo's answer. It was curious remark that caused many to pause. But sadly, the Kansas Representative had used up all his time....
###
October 9 at 1:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman All poetry went down hill after the Iliad.
October 9 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I wish I could read ancient Greek.
October 9 at 1:19pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
October 9 at 1:19pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Why take such a sad view of poetry, Daniel?
October 9 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am only taking a controversial view, Isak.
October 9 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Trying to get things going.
October 9 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Alexander Pope restored poetry, in his translation of the Iliad and his Essay on Man.
October 9 at 1:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Pope, is nothing.
October 9 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Dante is the great peak after Homer.
October 9 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg By the way, my dear good friends, I am writing a novella. I plan on completing it after I finish a devotional to Mary. It will be about 17,000 words, its form is taking shape. It is about the adventures of a refugee in America. It is titled "Amerigo: the boy who was found". Here is some of it, from the beginning.
...
She came in on the ship last night. Her dress is blue, her blouse is white. She came in on the ship last night.
He can see her through the gray hats. And when she looks up, she sees him. Amerigo, the lost boy, then and now.
She came in on the ship last night.
...
Apparently, his testimony had set off a fire storm. It was a message the media had never heard before. And one of their reporters had seized upon it: a cub reporter, looking or a headline. This reporter, who shall go un-named for the time being, had cut his teeth, so to speak, on political campaigns in Virginia, where he had acquired the skill of drawing attention to a word or two, in order to put down political opponents, advance an initiative, or propel a local issue to the national news. But this was his first real story, his first real job and steady pay check.
And so it was that Amerigo's unscripted remark made its way to the top of the news that weekend. It was a simple response he had given to a question posed by an Honorable Gentleman from the Great State of Kansas. This Congressman praised Amerigo for his determination, then asked how it was that he able to not lose his hope during his lengthy ordeal in the refigee camp.
"I was able to not lose hope because I remained chaste," was Amerigo's answer. It was curious remark that caused many to pause. But sadly, the Kansas Representative had used up all his time....
###
October 9 at 1:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia then Ogden Nash
October 9 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Pope is the most quoted poet ever.
October 9 at 1:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But Dante should be..
October 9 at 1:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia no, that's Ogden Nash
October 9 at 1:23pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dante loved Gnocchi.
October 9 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Where is Tom Sundaram?
October 9 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Who is the superior-est - Dante, Cervantes, or Shakespeare?
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ooh.
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Alexander Pope
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dante
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Dante has an encyclical written about him.
October 9 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So?
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Virgil, Dante, Pope, Shakespeare.
October 9 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I fixed that literally hours ago, big angry, dammit.
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Cervantes killed muslims.
October 9 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Shakespeare is infinitely superior to Pope. Not even in the same camp.
October 9 at 1:26pm · Unlike · 6
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Daniel Lendman Shakespeare wrote Hamlet.
October 9 at 1:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I disagree
October 9 at 1:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how about Lamb re-writing Shakespeare
October 9 at 1:26pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Pope wrote better couplets than anyone.
October 9 at 1:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Pope was a technically superior wordsmith.
October 9 at 1:27pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Homer, Dante, sure.
Shakespeare and Cervantes too.
What about Lendman?
October 9 at 1:27pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Shakespeare padded scenes.
October 9 at 1:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman After Shakespeare, there was Eliot.
October 9 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Dante, Cervantes and Shakespeare are the big three, from where I'm standing, and it's not easy to determine who's the top dog. I favor Shakespeare.
October 9 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Dryden > Pope
October 9 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Pope is very good. But writing better couplets and being good technically is not enough.
October 9 at 1:28pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Surely you must include Homer, Isak.
October 9 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg This is Pope. It is better that the Bard.
God loves from whole to parts: but human soul
Must rise from individual to the whole.
Self-love but serves the virtuous mind to wake
As the small pebble stirs the peaceful lake;
The centre mov'd, a circle strait succeeds,
Another still, and still another spreads;
Friend, parent, neighbour, first it will embrace;
His country next; and next all human race;
Wide and more wide, th' o'erflowings of the mind
Take ev'ry creature in, of ev'ry kind;
Earth smiles around, with boundless bounty blest,
And heav'n beholds its image in his breast.
October 9 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Pope is good.
October 9 at 1:30pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I am speaking of mere mortals, Daniel. Homer is a god.
October 9 at 1:30pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Technique is essential. The Bard is great.
October 9 at 1:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That Pope excerpt is needlessly didactic.
October 9 at 1:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's from his Essay on Man.
October 9 at 1:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman What you said about Homer, reminds me of a story Isak.
October 9 at 1:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg neo-classical
October 9 at 1:31pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It is fitting then as an essay.
October 9 at 1:31pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Do tell Daniel!
October 9 at 1:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It is not better than the Bard.
October 9 at 1:33pm · Like
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Joel HF I didn't know Cervantes was a poet--this is Miguel Cervantes, right?
October 9 at 1:33pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Pope from The Rape of the Lock. It is finer than the Bard.
Oft when the World imagine Women stray,
The Sylphs thro' mystick Mazes guide their Way,
Thro' all the giddy Circle they pursue,
And old Impertinence expel by new.
What tender Maid but must a Victim fall
To one Man's Treat, but for another's Ball?
When Florio speaks, what Virgin could withstand,
If gentle Damon did not squeeze her Hand?
With varying Vanities, from ev'ry Part,
They shift the moving Toyshop of their Heart;
Where Wigs with Wigs, with Sword-knots Sword-knots strive,
Beaus banish Beaus, and Coaches Coaches drive.
This erring Mortals Levity may call,
Oh blind to Truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.
October 9 at 1:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, Virgil and Horace deserve some love.
October 9 at 1:34pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman John Nieto was taking a ride with a Frenchman in France. He told the Frenchman that he came from California, the land of the "second best wines in the world."
The Frenchman seemed confused and asked, "Why not the first best wines."
John replied, "Well, French wines of course!"
The Frenchman then gave a look that said, "Oh, you thought that there was really a comparison between French wine and whatever you think wine is?"
October 9 at 1:34pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict That is wonderful! But it does not compare to the heights of Shakespeare's words.
October 9 at 1:34pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And that is a fantastic story. Funny too, because there is much shoddy French wine...
October 9 at 1:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here is Shakespeare's Queen Mab speech. It is awesome, but every second line could be cut without diminishing its sense. In fact, half of it could be removed without diminishing its sense.
O, then, I see Queen Mab hath been with you.
She is the fairies' midwife, and she comes
In shape no bigger than an agate-stone
On the fore-finger of an alderman,
Drawn with a team of little atomies
Athwart men's noses as they lie asleep;
Her wagon-spokes made of long spiders' legs,
The cover of the wings of grasshoppers,
The traces of the smallest spider's web,
The collars of the moonshine's watery beams,
Her whip of cricket's bone, the lash of film,
Her wagoner a small grey-coated gnat,
Not so big as a round little worm
Prick'd from the lazy finger of a maid;
Her chariot is an empty hazel-nut
Made by the joiner squirrel or old grub,
Time out o' mind the fairies' coachmakers.
And in this state she gallops night by night
Through lovers' brains, and then they dream of love;
O'er courtiers' knees, that dream on court'sies straight,
O'er lawyers' fingers, who straight dream on fees,
O'er ladies ' lips, who straight on kisses dream,
Which oft the angry Mab with blisters plagues,
Because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted are:
Sometime she gallops o'er a courtier's nose,
And then dreams he of smelling out a suit;
And sometime comes she with a tithe-pig's tail
Tickling a parson's nose as a' lies asleep,
Then dreams, he of another benefice:
Sometime she driveth o'er a soldier's neck,
And then dreams he of cutting foreign throats,
Of breaches, ambuscadoes, Spanish blades,
Of healths five-fathom deep; and then anon
Drums in his ear, at which he starts and wakes,
And being thus frighted swears a prayer or two
And sleeps again. This is that very Mab
That plats the manes of horses in the night,
And bakes the elflocks in foul sluttish hairs,
Which once untangled, much misfortune bodes:
This is the hag, when maids lie on their backs,
That presses them and learns them first to bear,
Making them women of good carriage:
This is she--
ROMEO
Peace, peace, Mercutio, peace!
Thou talk'st of nothing.
October 9 at 1:36pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg In fact, many scenes from Hamlet have been cut, without losing sense.
October 9 at 1:36pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But with Pope, every line is necessary to complete the thought.
October 9 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I always thought that God inspired Shakespeare to write this sonnet for my sake:
From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
But as the riper should by time decease,
His tender heir might bear his memory:
But thou contracted to thine own bright eyes,
Feed'st thy light's flame with self-substantial fuel,
Making a famine where abundance lies,
Thy self thy foe, to thy sweet self too cruel:
Thou that art now the world's fresh ornament,
And only herald to the gaudy spring,
Within thine own bud buriest thy content,
And, tender churl, mak'st waste in niggarding:
Pity the world, or else this glutton be,
To eat the world's due, by the grave and thee.
October 9 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict It's times like this I'm really grateful for TNET - I'm giving tests in all six of my class periods today, and I would be bored out of my mind else. Keeping an eye on the kids means you can't read a book. TNET requires slightly less concentration
October 9 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Scott, perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of the Queen Mab speech.
October 9 at 1:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And perhaps you misunderstand Hamlet?
October 9 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia then I have a question, Isak. With poetry it is always better to read aloud. How does that work with haiku? I've been trying it, but it seems to fail as a verbal art form
October 9 at 1:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia (btw: I love Kerouac's poetry, but only when he reads it himself)
October 9 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Scott, perhaps the sense would not be diminished. But the sense is not all. You would lose the language, the sheer joy of words.
October 9 at 1:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Though, Fry and Laurie might agree with you Scott:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwbB6B0cQs4
Shakespeare sketch - A Small Rewrite
Live Shakespeare sketch called 'A Small Rewrite' made for Comic Relief, with Hugh Laurie as Shakespeare and...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman ^Brilliant!
October 9 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Here's a haiku by Jack Kerouac:
The taste
of rain -
Why kneel?
October 9 at 1:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg With Shakespeare, you can cut many lines without losing sense. He repeats the same thought over and over.
From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
From fairest creatures we desire increase,
That thereby beauty's rose might never die,
Within thine own bud buriest thy content,
And, tender churl, mak'st waste in niggarding:
Pity the world, or else this glutton be,
To eat the world's due, by the grave and thee.
October 9 at 1:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But repetition is good!
October 9 at 1:40pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I know a lot of people agree with me. I actually agree with them. I studied under a Pope expert.
October 9 at 1:40pm · Like
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Joel HF The Picture of Dorian Grey by Weird William Wilde.
October 9 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You can say that again.
October 9 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman hahaha!^
October 9 at 1:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sense and joy must go together tightly, like matter and form.
October 9 at 1:41pm · Like
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Joel HF That's Atkinson and Laurie, Daniel.
October 9 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Perhaps Queen Mab is a poor example, because it is the ramblings of a mad man.
October 9 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. I know.
October 9 at 1:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Michael I would agree that the haiku does not immediately lend itself to the pleasures of hearing it aloud. There is not much to the poem, and thus not much to hear. The pleasure in hearing a haiku aloud is more intellectual I think. I wouldn't say that it completely fails as a verbal art form though.
October 9 at 1:43pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is still good, Joel.
October 9 at 1:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But the Henriads can be cut significantly without losing sense. In fact, his plays were sometimes cut down often, even in his time, I have read. This does not mean they are not great plays and masterpieces of our culture.
October 9 at 1:44pm · Like
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Isak Benedict One of my own that I like the sound of. Read it aloud.
boomerang, baby -
throw me away, I return
even in spring rain
October 9 at 1:44pm · Like
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Joel HF Atkinson is the best!
October 9 at 1:44pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg baby?
October 9 at 1:44pm · Like
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Joel HF The problem w/ Haiku is it is so easy to write a terrible one.
October 9 at 1:46pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF And the nature reference doesn't have to have any intrinsic connection.
October 9 at 1:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Terrible haiku are accidental to the form.
October 9 at 1:46pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Would you say it's easier to write a bad haiku than a bad sonnet?
October 9 at 1:47pm · Like
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Joel HF I prefer metrical poetry, tbh.
October 9 at 1:47pm · Like
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Joel HF Yes.
October 9 at 1:47pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I prefer doggerel. Here's one of mine:
the leaves have started turning
as Autumn now takes hold
the days are getting shorter
and the weather's getting cold
the world is covered in pumpkin spice
cinnamon is in the air
I have to unpack sweaters,
I know I shouldn't care
Summer now is finally passed
there can be no do-overs
fuck that star Betelgeuse
I hope he supernovas
October 9 at 1:47pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF 3 lines vs. 14.
October 9 at 1:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The nature reference definitely has an intrinsic connection. It sets the moment in which the poet attempts to convey an eternity firmly in a season, in one of the demarcations of time.
October 9 at 1:48pm · Like
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--if you like doggerel, there may be a Bestiary right up your alley!
October 9 at 1:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ha!
October 9 at 1:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet depends on chance. The Friar's letter is not delivered simply by chance. Too many literary neophytes praise Shakespeare without scholastic criticism.
October 9 at 1:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I prefer to drop f-bombs poetically
October 9 at 1:48pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg My bestiary is not dogg'rel.
October 9 at 1:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But a beitiary is.
October 9 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Last April ('13) I wrote a poem for every day of National Poetry Month
October 9 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg wow
October 9 at 1:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 30 days of trash
October 9 at 1:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg were you protesting National Poetry Month?
October 9 at 1:50pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no I only write trash
October 9 at 1:50pm · Like
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Joel HF I actually like doggerel. Belloc's children's poems are amazing.
October 9 at 1:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia *white trash
October 9 at 1:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg you only write white trash?
October 9 at 1:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Those aren't doggerel either.
October 9 at 1:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I only write *for* white trash
October 9 at 1:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But I like doggerel, especially Beitia's.
October 9 at 1:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Rounds for the house for Beitia's doggerel!
October 9 at 1:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Autumn mornings, with their warmth,
remind me of the shoe to drop.
Sunny afternoons with a light breeze
very soon will have to stop.
Soon I'll be waist deep in snow
freezing and annoyed.
Shoveling with hat and sweater,
drinking coffee in the icy void.
for now, however, I can stare up
into the sky, a reasoning ape.
And give two middle fingers
to Orion's smirking shape.
October 9 at 1:53pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I am against National Poetry Month as such.
October 9 at 1:54pm · Like
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Isak Benedict http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html
Bernstein, Against National Poetry Month As Such
A web feature for My Way by Charles Bernstein. Visit the...
PRESS.UCHICAGO.EDU
October 9 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I love Rome and Juliet.
October 9 at 1:54pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I love it!
October 9 at 1:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's a good one, MB. You're coming out of dogg'rel though.
October 9 at 1:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg R & J is too chancey.
October 9 at 1:55pm · Like
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Elliot Milco Yes, I dislike Chesterton.
October 9 at 1:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia thanks Elliot, I didn't want to be the only one
October 9 at 1:56pm · Like · 2
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Elliot Milco http://www.firstthings.com/.../against-chesterton.../
Against Chesterton Quotations
I was wandering through Facebook and noticed a quote by G.K. Chesterton at the top of . . . .
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 9 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Dogg'rel is when you stand up in a bar, half drunk, and raise a pint and burst forth in impromptu rhyming iambic pentameter.
October 9 at 1:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Query: Why doesn't Christendom teach its students what poetry is? Why does it insist on misleading them as to the fundamental definitions and rules of verse?
October 9 at 1:57pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict And then you quaff.
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Quaffing is drinking only you spill more.
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have been reflecting that the TNET really is a glorious representation of what it is to be a TAC grad. Sure, there is sin and human frailty, but on the whole, it is beautiful.
We are willing to engage anyone on almost any subject and we are eager to learn and hear different positions.
We are not afraid jests or trivial things, but on the whole, we are occupied with the Good, the True and the Beautiful.
I love my alma mater!
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg At Christendom, they flog you if you do not worship Chesterton.
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Ah.
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^heretics
October 9 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Well said Daniel!
October 9 at 1:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg my back is lined so deep with brutal scars;
but ne'er did I turn, within in these holy wars.
October 9 at 1:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Chesterton poet?
more like a huge waste of time
Autumnal jollies
October 9 at 2:00pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Yeah, Romeo's response "Thou talk'st of nothing" might give one a clue as to the length of that speech.
October 9 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict A lot of people don't get the Queen Mab speech. Shakespeare knew a lot of people wouldn't get the Queen Mab speech. That's why he had the titular Romeo not get the Queen Mab speech.
October 9 at 2:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I like Chesterton.
October 9 at 2:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I like Chesterton too.
October 9 at 2:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am sure to not make the perfect the enemy of the good.
October 9 at 2:07pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Chesterton isn't a perfect poet, or thinker, or writer, but he is a good poet, thinker and writer.
October 9 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, this is Fry and Laurie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOBV7DS65S8
Fry and Laurie Shakespear Master Class
1984. At Nether Wallop Fete. Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie give a master class in Shakespeare.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman By the way, my father-in-law is Hugh Laurie's doppleganger.
October 9 at 2:09pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman or vice-versa.
October 9 at 2:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Joel, I don't think you can't really be a poet if you are only self-proclaimed.
October 9 at 2:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, Fry and Laurie are brilliant.
October 9 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think Chesterton was a poet and, first and formost, a playwright. His discovery and reversals were outstanding his play Magic. His prose bears this quality in Orthodoxy. His reversals and discoveries in Magic seem far better than even Shakespeare's in Romeo and Juliet which are very chancey and not necessary.
October 9 at 2:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Chesterton is working with a much higher metaphysics than Shakespeare, even at Shakespeare's best.
October 9 at 2:14pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland ^^Daniel, so true re: doppelgänger!
October 9 at 2:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That's ridiculous.
October 9 at 2:15pm · Unlike · 3
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg This is kind of serious:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2554588
HHS secretary: There may be other cases of Ebola in the U.S. |...
WASHINGTONEXAMINER.COM
October 9 at 2:15pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That's also ridiculous.
October 9 at 2:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Of course it is, whatever you say.
October 9 at 2:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Thank you, I'm glad you agree with me.
October 9 at 2:17pm · Like
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John Ruplinger 33333 [infra]
October 9 at 2:23pm · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF Really?
October 9 at 2:22pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Yeah, to hold any author as Shakespeare's equal is audacious, to hold any English-speaking author as Shakespeare's equal is ridiculous.
October 9 at 2:22pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley The only possible exceptions I can think of are Homer, Virgil, Dante and Goethe.
October 9 at 2:23pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Comment 33,333 = "Really?" I love it.
October 9 at 2:23pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Not Goethe. Good grief! He was German. Pope is better than Shakespeare in technique.
October 9 at 2:25pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Maybe Horace too, but I've never read him
October 9 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Goethe in German is sublime.
October 9 at 2:24pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sorry, Ed, I did not know you had a degree in Literature.
October 9 at 2:24pm · Like
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Edward Langley Ask Socrates, it belongs to the philosopher to judge all things
October 9 at 2:25pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF Tolstoy thought Shakespeare was crap, and would angrily argue the point with all and sundry.
October 9 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (except Theology, for the record)
October 9 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Now one needs a degree in literature to disagree on literature? Would the same hold, I wonder, for oh I don't know...Theology?
October 9 at 2:26pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Only Tolstoy did not use the word crap.
October 9 at 2:26pm · Like
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Edward Langley (and, IM-not so-HO, a degree in literature is just about as worthwhile as a degree in gender studies)
October 9 at 2:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Chaucer has his moments, as do Icelandic Sagas in literature, FWIW
October 9 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley In fact, they often are the same thing by different names.
October 9 at 2:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You do not need a degree in theology to know with accuracy what its first principles are.
October 9 at 2:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg What are the first principles of theology, and why does TAC not teach this?
October 9 at 2:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley Guess what Shakespeare, Dante and Goethe have in common?
October 9 at 2:27pm · Like
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Edward Langley (although, Martin Luther might be more accurate than Goethe)
October 9 at 2:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg They each did not know how to change a light bulb?
October 9 at 2:28pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley No, they all basically invented their respective languages.
October 9 at 2:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Icelandic sagas are older vernacular literature
October 9 at 2:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and just as great
October 9 at 2:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That is not true at all about Goethe.
October 9 at 2:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Faust part 2 sucks
October 9 at 2:31pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
John Ruplinger Chaucer gets little love.
October 9 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Goethe was good when he was young, but he went off the deep end.
October 9 at 2:33pm · Like
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Joel HF http://popsonnets.tumblr.com/ h/t Jehoshaphat Escalante
Pop Sonnets
Today's songs in yesterday's words.
POPSONNETS.TUMBLR.COM
October 9 at 2:34pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Scott, "That is not true at all about Goethe " that's why I qualified myself to refer to Luther.
October 9 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia The Saga of Burnt Njal shows the development from a vendetta culture to a culture ruled by law. It is an amazing piece of literature documenting an amazing history of self-organization.
Plus, I like saying "allthing"
October 9 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Edward. I'm a little insulted by your statement that a degree in literature is as worthwhile as a degree in gender studies. But I can't figure out in what way I'm insulted. I presume it means you have a low opinion of literature. Am I correct?
October 9 at 2:39pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, I just don't think it's worth the time and effort required for an advanced degree.
October 9 at 2:40pm · Like
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Edward Langley Especially if you get crypto-Marxist professors that turn it into a degree in gender studies / class warfare.
October 9 at 2:41pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia hey! what's wrong with class warfare?
October 9 at 2:42pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg A degree in rhetoric is special. How come TAC does not teach rhetoric. I thought rhetoric was one of the liberals arts?
October 9 at 2:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We read about rhetoric.
October 9 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And we do it in class.
October 9 at 2:46pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley We do, we read Aristotle's rhetoric.
October 9 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley And De Doctrina Christiana, of which Book IV (?) is all about rhetoric.
October 9 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley (Per something earlier) It is definitely true, though, that Goethe's influence on Modern German was significant: and you should see the way native German speakers treat him. I had a German class with a professor from Dresden, she generally had the students read the German sentences to be translated, except the one time that there was a significant selection from Goethe.
October 9 at 2:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley Goethe + Schubert = wunderbar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuG7Y6wiPL8
Erlkönig - Franz Schubert
Il re degli Elfi (titolo originale tedesco Erlkönig) è un Lied di Franz Schubert sui versi dell'omonima ballata di Johann...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 2:53pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Michael Beitia http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55154400.jpg
CDN.MEME.AM
October 9 at 3:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe http://m.stltoday.com/.../article_2d5a8c2a-97db-5cec-a477...
Police officer fatally shoots teenager in south St. Louis : News
Police say victim fired at officer but family disputes that.
STLTODAY.COM|BY LEE ENTERPRISES
October 9 at 3:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This happened very close to my neighborhood. A couple of blocks from our church.
October 9 at 3:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My friend lives on this street. I babysat for her the night I trolled about brown scapulars.
October 9 at 3:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia file under "don't shoot at cops"
October 9 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, it the cop's account is true, then it isn't another Michael Brown situation. But the protests are still gathering steam.
October 9 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how long have you lived in the Midwest?
October 9 at 3:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Since June.
October 9 at 3:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia get used to it. It took me a few years.
October 9 at 3:17pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Denver isn't perfect, but there isn't this racial tension at all.
October 9 at 3:17pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yup
October 9 at 3:17pm · Like
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Joel HF I don't know how much it matters which story is true--the situation could easily get out of hand regardless.
October 9 at 3:18pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I was called by a high school junior, when I was teaching, a "fucking white-assed piece of shit"
October 9 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe People are worried it will be another Ferguson. That's scary stuff
October 9 at 3:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Saying prayers, Samantha!
October 9 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Outside my metro, every Friday, a group of the "Israelite School of UPK" harangues passersby with a bull-horn. Luckily, in my suit and tie, I don't look the white establishment...oh wait.
October 9 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'm glad you guys do so much rhetoric.
October 9 at 3:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What on earth is the Israelite School of the UPK? I'd look it up, but I don't want to get on any FBI watch lists
October 9 at 3:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, why do you need to know so much. That's so Type A.
October 9 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yeah. We own rhetoric.
October 9 at 3:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg TAC is the nation's leading school of rhetoric.
October 9 at 3:22pm · Like
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Joel HF No less than the "Southern Poverty Law Center has labeled ISUPK [as] an 'extremist' and 'black supremacist' group." (per wiki)
October 9 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg The other schools of rhetoric read idiots like Cicero and Longinus.
October 9 at 3:23pm · Like
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Joel HF Also, they wear funny costumes and talk about how the white man is a devil and white jesus is a devil and a lie, but that's cool, Jesus was black.
October 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Lots of prayers, Samantha.
October 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman We read Cicero
October 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg I know, that's why you're so awesome.
October 9 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And Flannery O'Connor.
October 9 at 3:25pm · Like
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Joel HF They also yell a lot about gays and abortion.
October 9 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund Those prayers are being offered in a Balkan Kaff that I'm visiting at the moment with some disabled people and attendant knights of Malta. It's a Croation village in Herzogowina that is also an interesting place to study the current state of the Church, and the alleged site of certain visions which would probably be good material for the Thread to argue about.
October 9 at 3:26pm · Like · 7
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Scott Weinberg Croats are great soccer players.
October 9 at 3:26pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman *Those* visions.
October 9 at 3:27pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Medju--whatdoyoucallit?
October 9 at 3:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe medjugorje?
October 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I played soccer for Croatia in Canada.
October 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Easy there Pater Edmund--you'll have to check with the censor before you say anything further.
October 9 at 3:27pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe To nobody's surprise, I'm out on Medjugorje.
October 9 at 3:28pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe Waaaay out.
October 9 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Ooo, I don't like Medjugore.
October 9 at 3:28pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But I love Our Lady of Guadeloupe, Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes.
October 9 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund The Austrian novelist Peter Handke once claimed that during the Yugoslavia war he considered leaving the Catholic Church and becoming Serbian Orthodox because "the Pope defended the Croats, the worst Catholics in Europe." Not sure what that judgement was based on.
October 9 at 3:29pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Well, they may be bad Catholics, but they're bad-ass soccer players.
October 9 at 3:30pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Jesus isn't black, Jesus is really Indian.
October 9 at 3:29pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jesus was probably very tan.
October 9 at 3:30pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thank you for saying that Isak.
October 9 at 3:30pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Thank you for thanking me Scott.
October 9 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Isn't Cardinal Schonborn all about medjugorje?
October 9 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I should know^
October 9 at 3:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I don't.
October 9 at 3:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Good things happen at medjugorje.
October 9 at 3:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Well, "all about" may be over the top, but yeah, he's on board with it.
October 9 at 3:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Virginia is for lovers.
October 9 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Kardinal Christoph Schönborn made some interesting points about Medjugorje.
October 9 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Thousands upon thousands of people go to confessions there.
October 9 at 3:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Yet Loving was against Virginia in Loving v. Virginia.
October 9 at 3:33pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau OH man. You just tagged a Cardinal in tNET!
October 9 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That would be neat if Cardinal Schoenborn participated in TNET.
October 9 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I suppose so. As long as he doesn't read the past comments
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Scott Hahn
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Joel HF http://te-deum.blogspot.com/.../another-slap-from-vienna...
Te Deum laudamus!: Another "slap from Vienna" as Cardinal Schonborn hosts...
TE-DEUM.BLOGSPOT.COM
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Those aren't their personal pages guys...
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Oh smack! Now Scott Hahn will come to the waters?
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott you did not just do that!!
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That would be fun too.
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Isak Benedict He tagged Scott Hahn's public figure page a while ago in an effort to get us to think he knew him personally.
October 9 at 3:34pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, I already tagged Aristotle
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh. I thought Pater Edmund might actually be facebook friends with the Kardinal.
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman and Plato
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So...
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I want Aristotle to come
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Pater Edmund probably is
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am here, Jody.
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is good enough.
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Janaro
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What a relief Daniel
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Michael Davies pretty much took it apart years ago. Bishop Peric has some wonderful homilies on the gifts of the Holy Spirit too.
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Are you in Austria now Daniel?
October 9 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Pater Edmund is more like St. Bernard of Clairvaux.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Cardinal Schönborn is a prince of the church, and thus I'll refrain from further comment. May the Holy Spirit grant him wisdom.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I am, Jody.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let's tag straight to the top:
God
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg John Janaro I know personnaly.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Ah. I know a bunch of the homeschooling families -- I consult with them for MODG. Great people.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Schnitzel and struedel for days.
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Isak Benedict John, Michael Davies took what apart?
October 9 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It sounds idyllic in Gaming
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg John Cuddeback, what are the first principles of sacred theology?
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It does sound idyllic in Gaming.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Michael and God win TNET today.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman But I live in Trumau.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Less idyllic.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But more practical.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And more sun.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I know the Tereks too.
October 9 at 3:37pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund One point that Cardinal Schönborn made was that of all the places that Our Lady could have appeared an ugly gravelly hill next to a middle of nowhere village in a disputed part of the Balkans was one of the least likely to have much effect, and that this fits with the general method of divine providence, choosing the weak etc.
October 9 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman The Tereks are wonderful people!
October 9 at 3:38pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Daniel you have become a shameless comment padder.
October 9 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict It's really a problem.
October 9 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict You should reflect on your sins.
October 9 at 3:38pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Davies with the blessing of Bishop Peric exposed Medja.
October 9 at 3:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I can't stop now, Isak.
October 9 at 3:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is a habit.
October 9 at 3:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Therefore, no sin.
October 9 at 3:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You crazy people all do realize that anyone who is friends with me on FB can see this, and that includes lots of non-TAC professionals who will judge the College based on this thread?
October 9 at 3:39pm · Unlike · 6
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Jody Haaf Garneau With regards to Medjugorje, I personally don't believe it is true. But I have been edified by the example of some Catholics who find in that place a reason for great hope and great faith. So I wait for the Church to speak.
October 9 at 3:40pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau What did we say now?
October 9 at 3:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Comment padding, though grave matter, is mitigated by its acquisition as a habit?
October 9 at 3:40pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman My friends see it too, Matthew.
October 9 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Before promoting Medja, you have to look at what the local bishops have said. There is no doubt about it. . . . . .
October 9 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think that those who are not in tNET have learned to ignore it by now.
October 9 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Most people are probably turned off by the 33,000 part.
October 9 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund I thought that mentioning certain controversial Balkan villages would bring out Matthew J. Peterson's inquisitorial side...
October 9 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Talk to Scott about that problem, Matthew!
October 9 at 3:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Potentially lurking are people of varied backgrounds, faiths, philosophies, and ages. Some more, some less prominent. I'm not saying this in regard to anything in particular that has been said, but to the whole tNETty thing.
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Nice save.
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson I don't care about Balkan villages.
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We'll be good
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Do you mean when someone asks why TAC does not present most of the dogmas of the Church to its students, and a couple dozen TAC alum tell him to f*** off, the whole world can see that?
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Well, I can't speak for half of them actually
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I try not to say anything on TNET that I wouldn't say in a publicly, or at least defend it publicly.
October 9 at 3:42pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict That^
October 9 at 3:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^same, although I've said lots of thing in a *manner* I wouldn't say them publicly
October 9 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What prompted it is the tagging: tag away, but realize that many along those lines are friends and could be watching anyhow.
October 9 at 3:43pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Like the Old Law is the Natural Law?
October 9 at 3:43pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Speech on The Neverending Thread shall remain free!!
October 9 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia God is always watching Matthew J. Peterson
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe :::::::::searching Matthew J. Peterson's friends list for important philosophers:::::::
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think the only one who needs to be really worried is Scott.
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha needs to know everything.
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman He actually has a job that is politically related.
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am more worried about God's opinion of what I say than the lurkers.
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I want to be allowed to say things like "darn" and "shoot!"
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Matthew J. Peterson A good medga debate is fine by me. Nice trolling by Pater Edmund.
October 9 at 3:44pm · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Jody, I quoted that in the first 500 or so comments on TNET...
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia there is no debate
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I have no worries. Pray and don't worry.
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Oh, I don't worry.
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I know Isak but we needed a new meme
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If I worried, I wouldn't be continuing the process of my over education.
October 9 at 3:45pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is probably time for a musical interlude too
October 9 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Samantha Cohoe Holy Moses you have a lot of friends Matthew J. Peterson.
October 9 at 3:46pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I think some of the TAC theses are idle words.
October 9 at 3:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Thanks for the warning...33,000 comments in. Not.
October 9 at 3:46pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Matthew networks
October 9 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: I get the sense that phil jobs are a bit more in demand than politics jobs these days.
October 9 at 3:50pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It is true. Fortunately Caleb is already tenure-track.
October 9 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg This thesis seems pretty idle: Aristotle's defense of sky-diving.
October 9 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Do you guys think if I say things like "darn" and "shoot" I might go to heck?
October 9 at 3:48pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict That's a fantastic topic.
October 9 at 3:48pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I think you are safe Isak
October 9 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That last job I posted as a status would actually be a great gig, but I suppose the Catholic side of it might turn y'all off. Besides, you are still in position to publish and move up the ladder.
October 9 at 3:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Until someone writes a thesis on fantastical beasts, I will never be satisfied.
October 9 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, if anyone hasn't reflected on Matthew's warning before he gave it, he should probably not be on Facebook at all. This is not a private forum.
October 9 at 3:49pm · Unlike · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wow. I read that so wrong
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like
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Isak Benedict That would also be fantastic.
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't care if you swear. This thread is like an open forum. The consequences are on you and your interlocutors.
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there are plenty of theses on matter and form, and that's pretty much the same thing
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe dammit, Sean Kelsey is probably never on facebook, right?
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Sean does not engage. He's too erudite.
October 9 at 3:49pm · Like
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Pater Edmund One of the most interesting things about being here is to observe the character of popular piety in our day.
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg He posted something about monkey bread.
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Sean also posted something about prime numbers.
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Say more, Pater!
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Monkey bread and prime numbers.
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like
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Joel HF I forward all your comments to him, Samantha Cohoe
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau Except that this isn't the typical sample set Pater Edmund
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia more pater
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF There is piety, let alone popular piety, on tNET?!?
October 9 at 3:50pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia reverence for THomastotle
October 9 at 3:51pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Popular piety on TNET - now THERE'S a fantastical beast for you...
October 9 at 3:51pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Any time I start to think that maybe I shouldn't spend time commenting on TNET, I am comforted by Pater Edmund's continued presence.
October 9 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 7
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Samantha Cohoe ^^same. Then I'm disheartened when I see the stats, and realize he's not on here that much, actually.
October 9 at 3:52pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict You know I've barely checked my news feed in the last two months? All because of TNET. It's far more scintillating.
October 9 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Come on, this is the best thing to happen to Facebook since quizzes.
October 9 at 3:53pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF The good father enjoys trolling more than one might think a monk would.
October 9 at 3:53pm · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund One thing that's interesting is that it has developed in a way quite unexpected by the "reformers" of the Liturgy after the Council.
October 9 at 3:53pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Hahaha
October 9 at 3:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson is friends with Sherif Girgis! Small world!
October 9 at 3:53pm · Like
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Joel HF I said it when I first tagged Pater Edmund, eons ago "Welcome to the REAL best thread on facebook!" Of course, I was being facetious then. I built better than I knew!
October 9 at 3:54pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Heck, when was the last time I was able to get into an argument with Samantha Cohoe about anything?
October 9 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's been too long, Big Angry. Far too long.
October 9 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I feel closer to everyone because of TNET.
October 9 at 3:54pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Pater Edmund--what has developed in a way unexpected by the "reformers" of the Liturgy?
October 9 at 3:55pm · Like
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Pater Edmund The huge emphasis on eucharistic adoration outside of Mass for instance, on auricular confession, on fasting and other penances.
October 9 at 3:55pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF I still deny that this thread is representative of much of anything--other, perhaps, than the democracy of Matthew J. Peterson's FB friending.
October 9 at 3:57pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I mean, if/when we have a class reunion, we would feel awkward arguing.
"Hey! I haven't seen you in years. You look great! Let's talk about how evil Elizabeth I is."
October 9 at 3:57pm · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe - FB friends with Sherif Girgis only - I believe his wife did drop by the religious liberty conference I was at this summer in Princeton. But all these circles are small, really.
October 9 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Having finished cooking and eating my dinner of fettuccine with mushrooms in a red wine sauce, and also outlining a few castles in the sky with my amazing young lady, I feel it is necessary to say one thing of relevance:
Everybody who writes poetry has to settle for being original, because if they are hoping for a deeper spiritual potential than the Divine Comedy they should see a doctor. Dante was, for what he did, the best damn poet ever to spell words, and the reason he has an encyclical was because the one guarantor we have of infallible eternal truth in this world saw fit to pronounce this in no uncertain terms, truly my favorite Papal moment apart from Peter going back to get crucified like a real man.
I am willing to hear claims that Shakespeare can occasionally compete, like in the Tempest's epilogue. They will be wrong but at least plausible. Milton does not enter the lists, because he can't fly. Eliot was cribbing his notes from the Comedy the whole time and qualifies as a clever homage. Homer and Virgil were epic (heh heh) but Dante can be seen as the guy who challenged both of them to a rap battle and won. (They would be full of respect - as would he.) Anyone who mentions Whitman or Wordsworth get the silent treatment until they leave.
Just so everyone knows how it would go.
October 9 at 3:58pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Pater Edmund Tom, have you read Romano Guardini's lectures on Dante? They are awsome. And I think there is an Italian trans.
October 9 at 3:58pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Sherif is a Princeton friend, and a very brave man, may I add.
October 9 at 3:58pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Not the book on the angels in Dante. The posthumously published lectures on the whole Divine Comedy.
October 9 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Ooooh want
October 9 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram McInerney's Dante and the Blessed Virgin is quite good.
October 9 at 4:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater is hinting: fast from tNET, go to confession and do adoration instead.
October 9 at 4:00pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The thread doesn't work because of the democracy of my friending. Rather, it works because of the desire of TAC grads to have instant access to conversation as argument. It was kindled by the naivete of TAC grads who, like moths to the flame, could not stop arguing with Scott. (Pre tNET, of course, this desire to reason with Scott had already spawned other threads).
But it works because, with that sort of launch, it reached critical mass as a place for people to have an instant convo with a TAC or TAC-ish background.
Still, it is really driven by a small circle of folks, which is why I advise tagging people more often in order to keep it interesting.
What it reveals is the need for a sort of instant group chatroom for the TAC alumni community.
October 9 at 4:03pm · Edited · Unlike · 12
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Sean Robertson Pater, I take it you're talking about Herzegovina, and not TNET, correct?
October 9 at 4:02pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF ^That would make so much more sense!
October 9 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg So, Tom Sundaram, I am glad you love Alexander Pope.
October 9 at 4:03pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Dante writes about fantastical beasts in Book 1.
October 9 at 4:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Although I am a magnanimous host, except for when I am not.
October 9 at 4:04pm · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund Ecce: http://www.morcelliana.it/or4/or...
Morcelliana, antico e nuovo testamento, sacra scrittura, teologia, filosofia,...
MORCELLIANA.IT
October 9 at 4:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson--TACers may be arrogant on the whole, but they are also very sincere, even to the point of naivete, in pursuit of conversation aimed at the truth.
October 9 at 4:06pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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Tom Sundaram What part of "nobody rivals Dante" indicates anything about whether I like Alexander Pope? I like Dante. Pope is hit or miss.
October 9 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg The most miraculous thing about Dante is he did most of his writing after he was dead.
October 9 at 4:05pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Original: http://www.gruenewaldverlag.de/dantes-goettliche-komoedie...
October 9 at 4:05pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Tell us how you really feel Tom.
October 9 at 4:06pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Sean Robertson, yes, I meant Herzegovina.
October 9 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram I'm right. Just saying. And I love Shakespeare, especially when he makes repeated Dante references as he tends to do. (Whether or not they are intentional. )
October 9 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Pope is ALL HIT:
With varying vanities, from ev'ry part,
They shift the moving toyshop of their heart;
Where wigs with wigs, with sword-knots sword-knots strive,
Beaux banish beaux, and coaches coaches drive.
This erring mortals levity may call,
Oh blind to truth! the Sylphs contrive it all.
October 9 at 4:07pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Ok, because I'm pretty sure the others thought you meant TNET.
October 9 at 4:08pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I am with Tom on Dante.
October 9 at 4:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dante wrote about fantastical beasts. So did I.
October 9 at 4:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I am like Dante.
October 9 at 4:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Dante was humble too.
October 9 at 4:09pm · Like
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Pater Edmund My favorite thing from Alexander Pope:
In vain, in vain,—the all-composing hour
Resistless falls: the Muse obeys the power.
She comes! she comes! the sable throne behold
Of Night primeval, and of Chaos old!
Before her, Fancy’s gilded clouds decay,
And all its varying rainbows die away.
Wit shoots in vain its momentary fires,
The meteor drops, and in a flash expires.
As one by one, at dread Medea’s strain,
The sick’ning stars fade off the ethereal plain;
As Argus’ eyes, by Hermes’ wand oppress’d,
Closed one by one to everlasting rest;
Thus at her felt approach, and secret might,
Art after art goes out, and all is night.
See skulking Truth to her old cavern fled,
Mountains of casuistry heap’d o’er her head!
Philosophy, that lean’d on heaven before,
Shrinks to her second cause, and is no more.
Physic of Metaphysic begs defence,
And Metaphysic calls for aid on Sense!
See Mystery to Mathematics fly!
In vain! they gaze, turn giddy, rave, and die.
Religion, blushing, veils her sacred fires,
And unawares Morality expires.
Nor public flame, nor private, dares to shine;
Nor human spark is left, nor glimpse divine!
Lo! thy dread empire, Chaos! is restored;
Light dies before thy uncreating word:
Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall;
And universal darkness buries all.
October 9 at 4:10pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund ^Very threadish that, and on that note, good night Thread.
October 9 at 4:11pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew is exactly right about why tNET is so addictive for me. Also, the small circle is dominated by 06ers, which makes it more fun for 06ers.
October 9 at 4:12pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Saying Dante wrote about fantastical beasts is like saying Milton mostly wrote about hyacinths.
October 9 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Samantha, and for us who are later than 06, it's an interesting way to interact with our predecessors and fellow alumni, with whom we would otherwise have no contact.
October 9 at 4:13pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Agreed, Sean
October 9 at 4:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, what would an alumni chatroom look like?
October 9 at 4:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson tNET
October 9 at 4:19pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Maybe multiple tNETs by topic with one big free for all tNET in the middle
October 9 at 4:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley
October 9 at 4:22pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I'm sorry for all the reposting, I've been trying to improve the picture quality.
October 9 at 4:23pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Except I would never go to a TAC chatroom, so it would be missing out on, like 1/8 of what has made tNET great.
October 9 at 4:23pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng The unexpected fruit of tNet for me is the desire to go and read things I've not thought about or heard of, in a long time or ever before.
October 9 at 4:24pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe or, 1/12th, maybe?
October 9 at 4:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just eyeballing the pie chart
October 9 at 4:24pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Nurds
October 9 at 4:24pm · Like · 4
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Tom Sundaram Fun fact - apparently in my foolhardy quest to get certified to talk at people about their marriage, I get to (have to) become proficient in discussing ancient Roman law too.
This is as good a place as any to ask: why the hell am I the only TACer here in Rome doing this? We should be stuffing enrollment and making entire waiting lists in our rush to apply. Every lesson is just a whole new epic nerdfest.
October 9 at 4:26pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Today we were discussing the foundations of Medieval law in light of the division of empire and church. It was fantastic.
October 9 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think I'd find the study of canon law snooze-inducing.
October 9 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially since it basically guarantees that the only jobs I'd be able to find would be on marriage tribunals.
October 9 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram (I mean half of it I'd written about already but I am an oddity in having my philosophy and theology already and also having written on ecclesiology. )
October 9 at 4:29pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I thought about Canon Law, but didn't want to spend my life working on annulments. Chose Theology instead.
October 9 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Tom if I was going to pursue a career in canon law, I'd be doing what you are doing. I've been enjoying hearing about your adventures!
October 9 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and still not one pick up line.
October 9 at 4:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Tom Sundaram--what level of intention is needed for a valid marriage?
October 9 at 4:30pm · Like
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Edward Langley I considered Theology, but decided that I hadn't had enough philosophy yet.
October 9 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Ed - yes because we all got our graduate degrees to guarantee employment. considering the sheer job security of it, canon law is looking sexier and sexier in this economy.
October 9 at 4:31pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I could probably get a government job with equally good job security
October 9 at 4:31pm · Like
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Isak Benedict What dorm was everybody from? I was in Serra's all four years.
October 9 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Peter and Paul's
October 9 at 4:35pm · Like
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Adrw Lng St. Bernards FTW
October 9 at 4:35pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley These '06ers are going to brag about trailer dorms.
October 9 at 4:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Milton mostly wrote about hyacinths.
October 9 at 4:35pm · Like
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Joel HF Bernard dawgs!
October 9 at 4:36pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Dante's description of beasts at the beginning of the Divine Comedy is worth noting.
October 9 at 4:36pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Dawgs...Dawgs.
October 9 at 4:36pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Joel - haven't started matrimonial law yet. Right now it is constitutional principles, philosophy of law, Roman law, history of canon law, latin, italian, munus docendi, general parts, and next semester fundamental theory.
October 9 at 4:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I loved Bernard's. I just found something Serrans composed against Bernardians I think my freshman or sophomore year, check this out:
October 9 at 4:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg and pasta
October 9 at 4:37pm · Like
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Joel HF #Soulface #eatit
October 9 at 4:37pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram My first history lesson was entitled "history of canon law as the history of reality". It was suitably awesome.
October 9 at 4:39pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict "These are the grievances against that wormlike of dormitories known as Bernard’s – that upon one night, during the course of Blessed Serra’s wooing of St. Kate’s, they did most perniciously launch water balloons at the girls of Kate’s. Further, they insulted the name of Kate’s tyrant, referring to her by the most undescriptive and inaccurate title of “Sasquatch.” As the night progressed, a certain little boy of Bernard’s deemed it honorable and proper to posture obscenely in the direction of the beauteous girls of Kate’s."
October 9 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov Peter and Paul, civilized dorms.
October 9 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg the history of Italian food is the history of reality. i mean that.
October 9 at 4:39pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "That upon another night, the bestial denizens of Bernard’s did once again hurl water balloons at St. Kate’s dorm. Furthermore, certain of their pitiful number took it upon themselves to spray a number of Kate’s girls with shaving cream. Having tired of these manly pursuits, they did attempt, under pretext of apprehending members of Blessed Serra in the vicinity, to assail the lovely dorm of Kate’s. They did approach the sacred girls’ dorm without deeming it necessary to even attempt to dignify their slight and paltry bodies with shirts."
October 9 at 4:39pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram I am going to abstain from discussion of dorm wars. Thanks.
October 9 at 4:40pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict The dorm wars stories were many, varied and grotesque.
October 9 at 4:40pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You loved dorm wars Tom.
October 9 at 4:40pm · Like
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Adrw Lng #Sasquatchgnosis
October 9 at 4:41pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Yes, Isak, I did, for as long as we kept them going.
October 9 at 4:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley Also, my claim about marriage tribunals was because I didn't want that responsibility, not because of job security.
October 9 at 4:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram That is fair, Yedward, but we need more smart TAC folks to step up to the plate!
October 9 at 4:43pm · Like
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Joel HF Pater Edmund was the last great dorm tyrant.
October 9 at 4:44pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Tom as marriage expert: "Don't use condoms, and just imagine your wife as Beatrice".
October 9 at 4:45pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram TAC drops the proverbial ball when it encourages everyone to serve the Church and says little about particular service to her laws, when we produce so many fully capable alumni.
October 9 at 4:45pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Jehoshaphat Escalante - I imagine it would be a step to helping many marriages where they use condoms and replace their wife with pictures of Jennifer Lawrence.
October 9 at 4:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg ...and omits instruction of most infallible Dogmas.
October 9 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram Scott the grownups are talking
October 9 at 4:48pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg ...yet calls what it teaches theology...
October 9 at 4:49pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg ...and produces alum whose only response is juvenile insult...
October 9 at 4:49pm · Like
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Adrw Lng IMO Philistinism about careers outside the normal TAC tracks is a unfortunately common and small-minded mistake provincial of TAC'ers. The Church and the world needs help everywhere!
October 9 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Sometimes I wish I could hire John Kaiser to come into discussions and constructively ridicule people.
October 9 at 4:49pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg ...and holds Euclid's first principles in higher place than the first principles of Sacred Theology (Dogma)...
October 9 at 4:50pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ridicule is not the proper response to good criticism. read Aristotle.
October 9 at 4:50pm · Like
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Tom Sundaram Everything is better with Johnny Kaiser.
October 9 at 4:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg and Old Spice.
October 9 at 4:51pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I return fondly to the memories of the Great Feasts of St. Bernards: the hoards of meat, the piles of rosemary bread prepared by Catherine Ryland, the song, the way the time stops for festival
October 9 at 4:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why does TAC present all the first principles of Euclid's elements, but only about three percent of the first principles of sacred theology? That would be a good thesis topic.
October 9 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram " Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'Every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement."
October 9 at 4:52pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram "Those who deny a first principle should be beaten or exposed to fire until they concede that to burn and not to burn, or to be beaten and not to be beaten, are not identical."
Avicenna
October 9 at 4:55pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Tom Sundaram, have you read Aristotle and Cicero on arrogant tone?
October 9 at 4:57pm · Like
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Joel HF "To call you stupid, would be an insult to stupid people! I've know sheep that could outwit you. I've worn [clothing] with a higher IQs."
October 9 at 4:59pm · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram Scott, have you read any of the things people said to explain how you are wrong about TAC? Demonstrate that by not acting like an obsessed monomaniac, and I will entertain the possibility that you are actually interested in polite conversation.
October 9 at 5:00pm · Like · 3
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Tom Sundaram Joel, isn't it a great movie?
October 9 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Tom lets talk about your classes off tNET
October 9 at 5:01pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Tom, why does TAC not teach most of the principle Dogmas of the Church? Sorry if I have missed something, but no one seems to have explained this. Just arrogance and insults, like yours above.
October 9 at 5:02pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the word is "principal", i'm sort of a cop about this, sorry
October 9 at 5:02pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you COULD go with "principial" though but that means a slightly different thing
October 9 at 5:02pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It seems TAC SHOULD teach the bulk of the principle supernatural dogmas; for these are the principles of sacred theology. But TAC does not. Why is this. I am just asking.
October 9 at 5:04pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the word is principal, not principle
October 9 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante really
October 9 at 5:04pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Why does TAC not teach the principal dogmas of the Church which are supernatural and can be known by faith alone: like the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the doctrines on the Virtues and Sacraments. Why so few? It seems it should teach more of them, because it portrays itself as teaching Catholic theology, and to not to seems fraudulent and heterdoxical.
In response, you do not seem to answer the question. You just hurl insult and vindictive.
October 9 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger like first principals of theology?
October 9 at 5:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante John !!
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante grr
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes, like... Infallible Dogma known only by grace.
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hear those drums? The natives are restless...
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I thought we were going with ignore, not indulge....
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Why do you not answer this simple question, yet instead growl.
October 9 at 5:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It is a simple question.
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think he means, dogmas which are principles of theology, not principal dogmas.
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why do you not teach most of the principals of sacred theology. This seems like a rip off.
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Edward, can you make tNET searchable? That would help some simple questioning.
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Drums...drums in the deep...
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you didn't pose the question to me. And when you did, like ten million comments ago, I answered. Scroll back
October 9 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia "we are trapped"
October 9 at 5:08pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger grr
October 9 at 5:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Why this nit-picking. You know the question. I mean the principal Dogmas. The main supernatural ones known by Faith alone.
October 9 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Poor Scott is now very confused about principle vs principal.
October 9 at 5:09pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and the prince of principle principals
October 9 at 5:09pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Didn't the fellowship fight off a cave troll too, Michael?
October 9 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #tolkeingnosis
October 9 at 5:10pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Poor Samantha. She is not Catholic. Yet studied at a Catholic college that does not teach the first principles of theology.
October 9 at 5:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia mostly they ran
#gotthereferencegnosis
October 9 at 5:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't answer that, Samantha. We love you.
October 9 at 5:10pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng scoot, what is the principl of Beastere? Why are animals teaching us about the churches revelation rather then a book? How come not many graduate would you know it. Theology knowledge
October 9 at 5:11pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia answer away, it's Rosary time. I may check in later
October 9 at 5:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hey now. I was genuinely sympathetic to you for a minute there.
October 9 at 5:11pm · Like
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Adrw Lng So much anger and grow but I only ask about the birds and bees and coconut trees
October 9 at 5:11pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg It's sad you cannot answer. TAC calls itself a Catholic college, that teaches theology, yet is omits the bulk of what the Church presents infallibly as the beginning of sacred theology.
October 9 at 5:12pm · Like
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Adrw Lng How does one manage an office in the Federal Republic well at the same time imagine fantasy animals informing our children's lives and telling them what to do in mind control
October 9 at 5:12pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Why is this?
October 9 at 5:12pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Sad you cannot control the animals that you admire and as role models for our children
October 9 at 5:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg tNET seems to be a reflection of the heterdoxy of Thomas Aquinas College.
October 9 at 5:13pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "Beat! Beat! Drums!"
October 9 at 5:14pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Nope, just a simple question that seems to trouble you.
October 9 at 5:14pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Your political writings about the affairs of animals trouble all of mankind are reflection of the heterodoxy of the animal kingdom's questions about theologies deepest answer
October 9 at 5:14pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg The Owl reads theology at noon,
And metaphysics by the evening moon.
Always quench your academic thirst,
To know thy God, but always love Him first.
October 9 at 5:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg the bestiary is principally devotional.
October 9 at 5:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict A haiku in the style of one Edgar Allen Poe, composed on this day by one Isak Bond, for the edification of one Scott Whineberg.
drums, drums, drums, the drums
of the drums, the drums, the drums -
beating on the drums
October 9 at 5:18pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Is it good for kids to go feral imitating theological beasts?
October 9 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks for the obfuscations, kids. God bless.
October 9 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Better than telling anyone to go to heck
October 9 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Go bess the strange mutated animal kingdom you're trying to control through legislation and the powers that be theiloy
October 9 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pretty solid counter-trolling, Adrw
October 9 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Scoot no idea up against
October 9 at 5:24pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple I've found a perfect solution for dealing with Whinebag. I just imagine he's "Jamie" (at :20):
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152681737029429
Cowboy Hip Hop
02:35
Krafty Kuts with Guizi Masterino
Get to know!
October 9 at 5:27pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good thesis top for you: Why the Socratic method does not lead to truth in Catholic theology; or, why St. Thomas wrote the Summa as a dialectic.
October 9 at 5:34pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Here's a good thesis topic for you: why animals who cannot speak and do not even have thoughts art teachers and why we would place them in front of us teachers rather that Socrates. Talk theology much as a word yet theology not much talk to you. Underside Republican upside down
October 9 at 5:36pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Scoot, why do you avoid talking creation and the animals that are inside of it? Why are chimpanzee so arrogant to smaller aviary monkeys?
October 9 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Are you asked so many questions and yet I never see answers only insults
October 9 at 5:38pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Here's a question for all TOC graduates local Republican thought tanks why is it that the wholeness of bestiality is not taught all at once completion in such a way that it is Todd from the higher lights of the high place??
October 9 at 5:40pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil Scott's posts make tNET feel like Groundhog Day.
October 9 at 5:41pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Thesis: 'How to maintain the appearance of truth at a Catholic college, without teaching what the Church teaches.'
October 9 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng Antithesis: "how do spook about pods creators and yet not spook
October 9 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Well I have to go mow the lawn it was fun everyone keep scoot well fed
October 9 at 5:44pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Send me a message if you want a searchable version current up to the last time I ran stats.
October 9 at 5:46pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng And as for you scoot, man-child, beware of my return.
October 9 at 5:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no no, Scott needs it. Maybe then someone can "answer his simple question"
October 9 at 5:46pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Here's a good thesis topic: "A proposal for the impossible: How to introduce students to sacred theology at a Catholic college, without introducing students to all the Dogmas of the Faith." There, that's a good one.
October 9 at 5:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But with Adrw, it becomes bizarro groundhogs day.
October 9 at 5:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Bizarro groundhogs day is kinda fun
October 9 at 5:49pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Max Summe What the hell is going on now? Is scott still talking about his worthless books?
October 9 at 5:50pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia and
October 9 at 5:50pm · Like
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia 33733
#palindromegnosis
October 9 at 5:51pm · Edited · Like · 5
--##--%%--##--
Catherine Joliat Feil We can get rid of Scott, and Adrw Lng can be Scott-bot.
October 9 at 5:51pm · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Brian Kemple Here's a better thesis topic:
http://fourfour.typepad.com/.../6a00d83451b8c369e20133f1c...
FOURFOUR.TYPEPAD.COM
October 9 at 5:51pm · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Michael Beitia wait. he's not a bot?
October 9 at 5:52pm · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Scott Weinberg Here's a good thesis: "Anatomy of a Bombast: How the TAC Founders decried western academia as a 'tyranny of freedom,' then established a 'Catholic' college in which the Dogmas of the Faith are not taught."
October 9 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia How about: "Anatomy of a Dumbass: the continual already answered question and verification of botness on tNET"
October 9 at 5:54pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Or this: "Squaring a circle; or, teaching under the light of the teaching Church, without teaching what the Church teaches."
October 9 at 5:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia or: "Circling the Square: how to have a bunch of people answer you repeatedly on the internet, and ignore them"
October 9 at 5:56pm · Like · 5
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Brian Kemple That thesis has been written over the past 33k+ comments, Michael.
October 9 at 5:56pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple By Scooter Whinebag.
October 9 at 5:57pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia oh yeah....
October 9 at 5:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good one: "Captain Obvious: Why Thomas is not the same thing as the Magisterium."
October 9 at 5:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Scott's got more staying power than Balaam's ass
October 9 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg That's right. I am here to get TAC back on track.
October 9 at 5:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson almost crying I am laugh so hard in my office at all of this
October 9 at 6:00pm · Like · 7
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Edward Langley Ok, someone needs to come up with a believable rationalization for a grad student in philosophy buying an expensive bottle of wine once a year.
October 9 at 6:00pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good one: "Flash of lightening: why JPII is worth reading in a Catholic college."
October 9 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm with you Peterson. Such an obvious joke. Erin and I are just waiting for dinner guests, and I figured no better way to waste time, no?
October 9 at 6:01pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson There must be an obscure ancient greek term for the joy the eternal return brings. The banality of repeated arguments, back and forth - but it is all hilarious unto my soul.
October 9 at 6:02pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Adrw Lng is killing me. Brilliant
October 9 at 6:03pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple Scott, I mean, Scooter, is the best evidence for a being controlled by the eternal motion of the celestial spheres that ever was.
October 9 at 6:04pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or algorithms... has anyone met him in person?
October 9 at 6:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good thesis topic: "Did Revelation end with the death of the last seminar?"
October 9 at 6:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good one: 'The Missing Link: The role of the TAC tutor in Apostolic succession."
October 9 at 6:09pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here's a good thesis topic for a non-Catholic student at TAC: "Sacred mysteries: How to pass theology at TAC without really believing in the Church's infallible teachings."
October 9 at 6:13pm · Like
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Mike Potemra As a total outsider here, I find this discussion quite fascinating. But could folks clarify for me what the essence of the disagreement is? Because I think that's been lost. I am assuming that a lot of Thomas Aquinas's texts are taught at Thomas Aquinas College. Is the objection that Aquinas is taught not as an authoritative source of dogma, but as a philosopher making arguments accessible solely to natural reason? And are there not actually courses in dogmatic theology at TAC? (I would assume that if such courses exist, they would be teaching orthodox doctrine -- unlike, e.g., the courses I took at Catholic University of America as an undergraduate, in which the opinions of, say, Hans Kung and those of Denzinger-Schonmetzer were presented as of equal merit, or more likely with a bias toward the former.)
October 9 at 6:15pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Courses:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating.../course-descriptions
Course Descriptions | Thomas Aquinas College
The Liberal Arts are first in the order of learning. The...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 9 at 6:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Syllabus:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/a-liberating-education/syllabus
Syllabus | Thomas Aquinas College
The following is a list of works read in whole or in part in the curriculum of Thomas Aquinas College. They are not...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 9 at 6:20pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Everyone takes the same courses, for which the syllabus is the same.
October 9 at 6:21pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Someone help Mike Potemra out - he is most very welcome to tNET.
October 9 at 6:22pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger . . . In the beginning was the Scott . . who accused TAC of being a heresy petri dish or factory. . . and so it goes
October 9 at 6:23pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I knew the Bestialy wasn't appropriate for kids...
October 9 at 6:25pm · Like
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Mike Potemra Thanks, Matthew Peterson -- holy cow, is that ever an ambitious syllabus! It looks to me more a like a lifetime project than a four-year program. (And no way will my lifetime be long enough for Euclid and Archimedes )
October 9 at 6:29pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Mike, the essence of the discussion here is that Thomas Aquinas College does not teach many of the infallible teachins of the Church, but principally uses Thomas' pre-ambles (his five rational proofs) as the infallible core of the Faith and sacred theology, instead of what the Church teaches. Other than that, TAC alum beat up people for asking.
October 9 at 6:31pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Mike Potemra, the reason there is no serious discussion on this point here is that there has been such discussion several times over the last couple months.
Anyway, I think Scott thinks the fact that we don't have a course that specifically goes through an exhaustive list of the dogmas, we don't teach the proper principals of Sacred Theology and thus don't really teach Sacred Theology.
I would counter that TAC generally goes for thoroughness and sometimes we lack something of the breadth that some might like.
October 9 at 6:29pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Also, Scott, John Damascene is both authoritative (as a Father) and covers all the major doctrines: i.e. the Trinity and the Incarnation.
October 9 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think that everything Scott's been saying about us not regarding the teachings of the Church is invalidated merely by the existence of The Book of Leo (not to resurrect a sore spot with anyone).
October 9 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^ ecce. Peregrinism. (viz. "Without touching" and "teaching inside")
October 9 at 6:36pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Or maybe that's the exception that proves the rule.
October 9 at 6:33pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Like Pelagianism, but not as interesting.
October 9 at 6:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think that was way before my time, Daniel, I read about it in a college guide while applying.
October 9 at 6:33pm · Like · 1
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Mike Potemra Scott Weinberg, would the problem be solved if TAC added a one-year course systematically going through Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (or a similar volume)? And your objection to the current practice is that -- by presenting dogmas only through primary texts -- TAC ends up historicizing the dogmas instead of teaching them as timeless truth?
October 9 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe What's the Book of Leo?
October 9 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott ThePeregrine wants to be my friend? Adrw? Should I accept?
October 9 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Hey guys, Facebook does not allow you to pretend to be me. The profile that somebody just created called "Scott The Peregrine" used a profile photo of mine and was pretending to be me.
October 9 at 6:37pm · Like
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Edward Langley For justification about my listing of the major doctrines, look no further than the creeds: While there are many doctrines subordinated to the doctrine of the Trinity and that of the Incarnation in the creeds, it is those two doctrines that order the creeds: so, those are the most important doctrines as ordering all the others.
October 9 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott killed Scott The Peregrin already. : (
October 9 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe What did I miss?
October 9 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger [Mr. Potemra. "Abandon all hope, ye who enter into this argument."]
October 9 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Help Mike Potemra out, people, as regards this debate and TAC and theology. He studied with some of the old jedi masters at CUA, and there are plenty of CUA philosophy people on this thread. Plus you never know when you will want yer book reviewed at NRO. Plus he traveled across the country on a greyhound bus:
https://www.nationalreview.com/.../greyhound-archipelago
The Greyhound Archipelago
My idea was to travel from New York to Los Angeles and back entirely by Greyhound bus, with two purposes: see...
NATIONALREVIEW.COM
October 9 at 6:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Max-- Adrw has finally figured out, on behalf of all tNET, the best possible response to Scott.
October 9 at 6:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Max Summe ?? oh - that explains Adrw Lng's nonsense posts I guess....
October 9 at 6:41pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Mr. Potemra, I think TAC should include an outlay of Dogma in its freshman theology course. Dogma is the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture, and is the starting point of Catholic theology. This "debate" started about a year ago when I was seeking clarification from a few TAC alum about knowledge. At that time, three TAC alum (Michael Beitia, Anthony Crifasi and Mikchael Horowitz) claimed that knowledge comes only through induction, but not by grace. Of course, the certitude of Faith is knowledge, and so debate ensued and they ended up attacking me. This has continued today, in this conversation. Some TAC almun in this thread are now posting fake profiles in my name and posting comments. The spirit of the alum is concerning. I have spoken with several tutors of TAC who have expressed concern about the direction of the college.
October 9 at 6:44pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Mike Potemra - I think in your last comment ("by presenting dogmas only through primary texts -- TAC ends up historicizing the dogmas instead of teaching them as timeless truth"), you summarized Scott's best case pretty well. But the whole intent of the college is to do the great booksie thang. Their founding document is worth reading as to how they understand themselves:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/about/founding-governing-document
Founding & Governing Document | Thomas Aquinas College
This document was first published in 1969 as a proposal...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 9 at 6:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Matthew J. Peterson, in whose last comment? I cannot see it. I think it would be fair if I can at least see it, so I can see if it summarizes my case, as you say. Otherwise, you seem to be putting words into my mouth. My claim is essentially that TAC claims to teach Catholic theology, without introducing its students to the Dogmas of the Church, which are of course the beginning of Catholic theology.
October 9 at 6:46pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And to be fair, Scott wants the infidels and non-Catholics bound and gagged in the corner of the room (or not admitted but that might be seen as discriminatory?)
October 9 at 6:46pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just while we discuss doctrine
October 9 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, why can't you see Mike Potemra's comment? You haven't blocked him, have you?
October 9 at 6:47pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jody, that comment is not particularly helpful.
October 9 at 6:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But it's accurate.
October 9 at 6:47pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I did not know that Matthew J. Peterson was referring to Mr. Potemra's comment. Is he?
October 9 at 6:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes.
October 9 at 6:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, that is not accurate.
October 9 at 6:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson see revised above
October 9 at 6:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You're right, Scott, The bound part is hyperbole. Gagged, though...
October 9 at 6:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Daniel - How does the Book of Leo invalidate (or validate) Scott's argument against TAC? That claim has me truly mystified.
October 9 at 6:49pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Mike, that's a charitable reading of Scott's arguments, which have been various and not as coherent as yours.
October 9 at 6:51pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg OK, so Mr. Potemra suggests that Dogma be introduced to students, and I have questioned how students who do not assent in Faith to the teachings of the Church can get through theology at TAC. I think Mr. Potemra's suggestion is what I believe. I think the answer to the second question is that TAC does not teach Catholic sacred theology. I think we can agree on that. But I do not advocate gagging anyone, or restricting speech, as Samantha has claimed. Just an admission that theology at TAC does not really teach the Dogmas of the Faith, or at least an explanation of how someone who does not assent in faith to the principles of sacred theology can fair in a sacred theology class.
October 9 at 6:52pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg OK, so we are all clear now. So, please answer the question... and please stop misrepresenting my querie, attacking me and posting false profiles of me.
October 9 at 6:53pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It seems to me the only way a student of sacred theology, who does not believe the first principals of the science in Faith, can get through the course would be if the course is not based on those supernatural principals. Correct?
October 9 at 6:54pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, he could take them as hypotheses and think about their logical consequences.
October 9 at 6:55pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is this why you do not provide students with the supernatural teachings of the Church?
October 9 at 6:55pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's Rhetoric Ed, not theology.
October 9 at 6:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's the reduction of sacred theology to If/Then enthymeme.
October 9 at 6:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But the fact is, TAC does NOT introduce these supernatural teachings. Correct?
October 9 at 6:56pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Ironic that Scott would have a problem with impersonation...
October 9 at 6:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not relevant or helpful Isak.
October 9 at 6:56pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I have never impersonated anyone.
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, Scott, not correct
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I have never misrepresented anyone.
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I am also curious about the Book of Leo comment. Edward you said you had read about it somewhere?
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe There may be a few dogmas that aren't studied in detail, especially ones that are recent
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Right, maintaining seven or eight different profiles is a totally different thing.
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante PSA: "principal" is an adjective ("principal dogmas of the Popish Church"), and "principle" is a noun ("first principles of Popery").
October 9 at 6:57pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg But, Samantha, TAC does NOT introduce the supernatural principles of the Faith, or only very few.
October 9 at 6:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Not true.
October 9 at 6:58pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Isak, that is false, I do not maintain more than one profile.
October 9 at 6:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger [How can any one argue with all of the above?]
October 9 at 6:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, TAC does not introduce any more than a few Dogmas, and not even really as Dogmas directly, but what this or that Doctor says about a few of them. That is a big difference.
October 9 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Speaking of bus rides. I love Mike Potemra's greyhound trip stories. And I love Bill Goodwin's as well:
https://americasfuture.org/the-murder-bus-tales/
America's Future Foundation | The Murder Bus Tales
The Murder Bus Tales The man sitting next to me is...
AMERICASFUTURE.ORG
October 9 at 7:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Not sure what you are asking John.
October 9 at 6:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If people on the right and left all rode the dog more often and wrote about it, the world would be a better place.
October 9 at 6:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Good night.
October 9 at 7:00pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The Zen of Riding the Dog
October 9 at 7:00pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe We don't study the Catechism. We start with Scripture, and read the great Doctors of the Church as they formulate the doctrines that will later be summarized in the Catechism.
October 9 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it is a way of studying theology proportioned to the ratio studiorum of the College, period. This was setlled ten jillion comments ago
October 9 at 7:01pm · Unlike · 5
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Scott Weinberg That's not quite how the faith works, Samantha.
October 9 at 7:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Aha. So says Pope Weinberg.
October 9 at 7:02pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg "It is a way of studying theology proportioned to the ratio studiorum of the College, period." This is a fancy way of saying the College does not study Catholic sacred theology, but a heterodox version of it, according to its own way.
October 9 at 7:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe St Augustine is heterodox? John Damascene, Athanasius, Thomas Aquinas?
October 9 at 7:03pm · Unlike · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante then tell the local ordinary all about it and see what happens, like I said last time. Go for it
October 9 at 7:03pm · Unlike · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante really, go for it, and then tell us how that worked out for you
October 9 at 7:04pm · Unlike · 2
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Scott Weinberg Please do not call me Pope, Samantha. I have no problem disagreeing with you. But your outlay is backwards. Sacred theology begins with what the Church posits as its first principles: its interpretation of Scripture. This does not come from the Fathers and Doctors, like bubbles rising in a pond. It may be enriched by them, but it is entirely different.
October 9 at 7:05pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Fathers and Doctors start with Scripture as well
October 9 at 7:05pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so the Fathers and Doctors arent the Church?
October 9 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante curioser and curioser
October 9 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante i always thought Nietzsche was wrong about the Eternal Recurrence but evidently not
October 9 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Yes, Samantha, and so do the Protestants, start with Scripture; but the Doctors, most of them, do not start with Scripture. They start with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture: John of the Cross, Teresa of Avilla, Therese of Lisieux.
October 9 at 7:06pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng Samantha it's a trap
October 9 at 7:07pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Even Aquinas began theology with the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture, not his own.
October 9 at 7:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg It's not a trap. It's an immutable truth.
October 9 at 7:07pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the Roman Church has infallibly (on its own account) interpreted Scripture in like two places tops.
October 9 at 7:07pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg in like two places tops?
October 9 at 7:08pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Aquinas reads Scripture, while interpreting it as the Church does and has done. He doesn't start with the Catechism.
October 9 at 7:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know Adrw. I know.
October 9 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Pond Bubbles 101
October 9 at 7:09pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Church's infallible doctrines, over 200 of them, OVER 200, ARE the Church's infallible interpretation of Scripture. Good grief, Jehoshaphat Escalante, you really do not know what you are talking about, do you?
October 9 at 7:10pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahahahaha oh dear
October 9 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the RCC has 200 infallible doctrines. I see. And ALL derived from Scripture! Well then that shuts Trent right up, doesn't it? No more partim/partim! Victory for the Protestants! Thnks, Scott!
October 9 at 7:11pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Replying to Jeffrey Bond above (sorry for the delay: I was making pizza):
I guess I was thinking that the Book of Leo shows (at least some of) the students' regard for the teachings of the Church (as exemplified in the teachings of various popes). But I guess it's not that good of an argument now that I think of it some more.
October 9 at 7:11pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Scott, you don't want to pick a fight with Jehoshaphat on this one, I promise you.
October 9 at 7:12pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Hahaha
October 9 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jehoshaphat Escalante, you just claimed that the Church has only issued its infallible interpretation of Scripture twice.
Catholic doctrine in its entirety, including over 200 principals that must be believed, either in sense or by faith, is the Church's interpretation of Scripture. Trent is part of that.
I wish you got more of this at TAC, but they are pulling the wool over your eyes.
October 9 at 7:13pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahahahaha
October 9 at 7:13pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante wow
October 9 at 7:13pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Goodness, Scott: You're very good at putting words in peoples' mouths. That's not what he said at all.
October 9 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Daniel P. O'Connell, if Escalante is a master chess player, he just gave up his Queen, then said hahaha. Godd night people.
October 9 at 7:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I need some popcorn.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante why don't you explain partim/partim for us, Scott?
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here is what Esc wrote above: "the Roman Church has infallibly (on its own account) interpreted Scripture in like two places tops." This is false.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Running away right now, when you're about to get the rhetorical whipping you so well deserve? Coward.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, scroll up, JA explained the correct use of principle/principal above.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Impressive, Esc. talk to you later.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell It's true Scott.
October 9 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're wrong.
October 9 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Esc is confusing ex cathedra with infallible. Sorry.
October 9 at 7:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You guys are hillarious and sad at the same time.
October 9 at 7:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Ex Cath has been used like twice. That is true. But the Church has issued interpretation of Scripture hundreds of times without error and infallibly, on faith and morals.....
October 9 at 7:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg You guys are so proud, and wrong, about so many basic things.
October 9 at 7:16pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Good night. I mean it this time.
October 9 at 7:17pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante http://www.americancatholic.org/messe.../aug2004/Wiseman.asp
How Many Infallible Teachings?| Ask a Franciscan - August 2004 Issue of St....
AMERICANCATHOLIC.ORG
October 9 at 7:17pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Most papal and conciliar teachings pertain to the Church’s ordinary teaching authority (magisterium) and are understood as authentic teachings—but not infallible in the sense of Vatican I’s teaching about infallibility."
October 9 at 7:17pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but maybe the Catholic who wrote that went to TAC!
October 9 at 7:18pm · Like · 4
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Mike Potemra Many thanks to everyone, I get it now. I think this is actually just one instance of the overarching debate, among conservatives, about the worth of Great Books programs in general. Defenders say that by presenting the best that has been thought and written, a school will form its students into proponents of truth and excellence. Opponents charge that -- by presenting so many different opinions, all so excellently expressed -- the schools risk cultivating in their students a radical skepticism. I don't know which side is right; indeed my own case offers evidence for both sides! My undergrad philosophy major offered mostly a Great Books approach, and it did indeed leave me in a state of radical skepticism. But my despair of philosophy led me to look all the more fervently to religion: If reason is inconclusive, we have all the more cause to be grateful for revelation. (Indeed i recall Aquinas saying something of the kind, that revelation as necessary because the results of reason are difficult to grasp and are available, in practice, only to a few.)
October 9 at 7:19pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Mike Potemra -- the fear about skepticism is the reason the TAC curriculum is ordered as it is. Aristotle and Augustine and St. Thomas are in the philosophy and theology tutorials, and get much, much more time and emphasis than heterodox thinkers
October 9 at 7:27pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Isak Benedict Pot, meet kettle.
October 9 at 7:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Regarding everyone being called proud and wrong.
October 9 at 7:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It might be time for some more haiku
October 9 at 7:23pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe heterodox theologians are right out, btw, with Luther and Calvin getting no love at all
October 9 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The school has an official philosophical and theological position, to which everything else is pretty well ordered, and in which students are very well trained
October 9 at 7:24pm · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe #gnocchignosis
October 9 at 7:25pm · Edited · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia Scott wants "sola scriptura" to be true soooo badly. (with the infallible guidance of the Church)
October 9 at 7:26pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia Sola Scriptura
not the Catholic angle
lets go eat gnocchi
October 9 at 7:28pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Scrott Whineberg can you see this?
October 9 at 7:28pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I bet Pater Edmund is rolling over in his bed. (He answered this claim months ago)
October 9 at 7:29pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Check his blog -- there was a whole post on tradition and the unwritten teaching of the Church, inspired by Scott first incarnation.
October 9 at 7:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
"Coffee and Pastry" sign
I thought it said "Poetry"
I would've ordered
October 9 at 7:30pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Thomas Aquinas College inspired this book ("Escape From Skepticism: Liberal Education as if Truth Mattered", in which it is featured:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/.../ref=redir.../280-6329301-9301207
Escape from Skepticism: Liberal Education as If Truth Mattered
Escape from Skepticism: Liberal Education as If Truth...
AMAZON.CO.UK
October 9 at 7:32pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Dishes are now done
Relaxation time? Now wine
or vodka gimlet?
October 9 at 7:31pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict .
HAIKU.
gesundheit.
October 9 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe the meal was lovely
sadly my sweet children lack
true #gnocchignosis
October 9 at 7:34pm · Like · 8
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Samantha Cohoe ingrates.
October 9 at 7:35pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia they all are....
October 9 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe All right. I've got plans this evening. Ciao bella tNET.
October 9 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Me too, plans involving angel hair pesto pasta with shrimp.
October 9 at 7:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Lots of catching up!
1. John Ruplinger- Chaucer is not in the same genus as Dante, Shakespeare and Cervantes. You cannot compare two things of different genera. Chaucer is great, perhaps the greatest in his kind. But I see it as Classical Music:folk:: Dante: Chaucer. Which is not to denigrate it....it would be unhealthy not to have some folk music, or jokes about kissing arses in one's aesthetic life!
2. Daniel Lendman, Based on the very document Rome issued over discerning apparitions, I must hold Medjugorje is false. Disobedience, even kidnapping of the local ordinary. Scandalous lifestyles of the "seers". Admitted lies by the "seers", to cover up their pot smoking (they admit this!). The sinful life of the "directors" and the "seers" claim that our Lady stands against Church authority in defending these wicked priests. The sheer volume of these "on demand" apparitions, and there repetitive and banal nature, when not questionable doctrinally.
None of that denies that when a bunch of sincere faithful, even though they are acting against the decrees of Rome itself which forbid pilgrimages to be organized promoting said apparitions, congregate somewhere that there will be a bunch of confessions and the like. I trust Schoenborn's judgment here like I trust his liturgical judgment (which considering that has involved "jazz chant" and tying shoes to balloons is not much at all)
3. Also Daniel, you might be interested to know that my local school district and the neighboring one still don't have sex ed but were targeted by the US Justice department over "gender equality" and "transgender" rights to use the restroom
4. Transgender /= transexual. The former is a psychological disorder where one's self-conceived "gender" understood as a social construct, as opposed to biological sex, does not match their actual sex. Transsex often refers to those with physical disorders, sometimes when there phenotype does not quite match their genotype (as with XY females, and XX males on one extreme, things like Kleinefelters on the other). That such cannot be seen as a physical disability, e.g. they are usually infertile, need corrective surgery, but is promoted as an alternate identity...well it is injurious to them!
October 9 at 7:42pm · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Haiku heard on campus the other day, walking behind two freshmen girls:
"So then I was like
'No way!' and then he was like
'Way!' and I said "NO!"
October 9 at 7:43pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz I am surprised the word "literally" was, like, literally not in the haiku.
October 9 at 7:45pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Art could improve on life ... maybe the last word of the haiku could be "Literally!"
October 9 at 7:46pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF And now for something completely different:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFevH5vP32s
Original Takes for Orson Welles Wine Commercial
These are some original takes for the legendary Orson...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 7:50pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I had an old nihilist professor once who was a student of Leo Strauss. He said there was one perfect nihilist curriculum in the world, and that was at St. John's College. All other campuses were nihilist in fact even if they muddled it up and weren't self-aware of the fact in practice.
But, he said, TAC was the only non-nihilist curriculum he knew of. Heh. Which sets it apart from the rest of great booksy world but does not resolve the deeper downsides of such programs in general, which Mike Potemra alludes to.
TAC is plausibly accused of contradicting its own particular method when it actually does pronounce upon right and wrong, formally or informally. The order of the curriculum itself involves such judgements, obviously, as it does anywhere.
Whether the full reasoning behind such determinations about what the truth of so many matters actually is is probably not able to be fully conveyed or argued about by students in four years.
If anything, the danger of the method (great books and extreme seminar approach) to my mind is graduating students who think they know more than all this stuff than they actually do. This state of affairs, if too brittle, can lead to skepticism once broken.
But in general the place seems to have a good track record and success rate. It's amazing it exists, and it is amazing what it consistently does.
October 9 at 7:51pm · Like · 11
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John Ruplinger But I don't elevate Shakespeare or Cervantes to Dante. As to Chaucer, you do denigrate him I think.
October 9 at 7:52pm · Like
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Joel HF Ahhhhhhh, French Champagne!
October 9 at 7:52pm · Like
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Joel HF And also (language warning):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol5RpDEzLzY
Obscure Audio 2: Orson Welles Outtakes - Frozen Peas
Orson Welles, American actor, director, writer and...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 8:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF We sell no wine[berg] before its time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSs6DcA6dFI
Orson Welles for Paul Masson Wine (April 2, 1979)
The Paul Masson brand is best remembered for its 1970s...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 9 at 7:54pm · Like
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Joel HF Arguing with Scott makes me feel like Orson in the videos above.
October 9 at 7:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Orson "What is it you want, in the depths of your ignorance!"
October 9 at 8:00pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Oh, reminds me. Daniel Lendman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_%28wine%29
Even the French judged California wines superior...
Judgment of Paris (wine) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Paris Wine Tasting of 1976 or the Judgment of Paris...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 9 at 8:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Please try to think of it like this, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ. The Bible is Word of Jesus. It is His thinking and His heart and His voice. The Church is the Bride of Christ. She speaks with the same heart and voice. She speaks on a variety of things, and it is always a true version of His voice in Scripture. When she speaks on faith and morals, it is always infallible. She has spoken this way, hundreds of times through the ages. And this voice is the beginning of theology, because theology is the study of God, and we know God through his revelation, His Word and the Church's echo of His voice.
So, for example, when the Church says abortion is wrong, it is an infallible echo of Scripture, even though that word abortion is not in the Bible; it is implicit in Scripture, at the first mention of the Baptist in the womb of his mother, and in other places in the Old Testament.
I am not asking for much from TAC. I am not even asking you to present all of the Church's infallible teachings as we do at Christendom. I am just asking this: that you present theology to your students in the context of this structure, and accurately.
God bless.
October 9 at 8:07pm · Like
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Megan Baird GAH, THIS ARGUMENT IS STILL GOING ON?!
October 9 at 8:44pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Scott still believes in "Sola Scriptura"....
October 9 at 9:21pm · Unlike · 2
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Megan Baird ....this is the argument that never ends....
October 9 at 9:29pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick WAIT!!!! We discussed Medjugorie!!! and I missed it!!! bleh!!!!
October 9 at 10:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill .... But but but... What about the great books?
Does Christendom know that two books of Euclid does not a liberal education make?!?
October 9 at 10:18pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Lauren, this is TNET. All discussions are ongoing. As we have just witnessed, even arguments settled beyond reasonable doubt over 20,000 comments ago are still open for "discussion".
October 9 at 10:36pm · Like · 3
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Megan Baird I KNOW. I would have loved to have discussed Medjugorje!
October 9 at 10:50pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Episcopus locutus est. causa finita est.
October 9 at 11:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger
October 9 at 10:53pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But what questions do you have? (And again the bishops of the diocese have publicized such convincing stuff that I would run not walk from it.)
October 9 at 10:59pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Friends, saying the argument was resolved 20,000 comments ago, isn't really a valid argument, especially when it wasn't resolved 20,000 comments ago...
October 9 at 11:30pm · Like
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Megan Baird No questions...I never thought Medjugorje was authentic.
October 9 at 11:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg This one's gotta be my favorite thesis topic of all: "MYSTERIUM FIDEI: How to study sacred theology at TAC, without learning what the Church teaches, or even believing in it."
October 9 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Now you're just being absurd, Scott.
October 9 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill That sounds like a decent tac thesis title scott.....
October 10 at 12:47am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I do think the whole 'TAC has an institutional philosophical and theological position' topic could lead to an interesting discussion --if only carried out in a nuanced way. For example, Laval Thomists (like myself I suppose) would resist such a formulation as stated above because of the suggested ideological undertones.
Notwithstanding some divisive disagreements among some individual tutors, I would say the school overall has benefited from its founders specific breed of Thomism. Discuss!
October 10 at 1:05am · Unlike · 1
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Scrott Whineberg Why does TAC teach so little supernatural revelation, and those supernatural dogmas of the deposit of the Faith that may be known only by supernatural faith in my teachings? Why does TAC teach so little of this? To omit so much of this yet to claim this is Catholic sacred theology seems like heterodoxy which is heresy.
You people insult, but cannot answer this simple question.
October 10 at 1:18am · Like
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Adrw Lng Scoot. Don't you so little take who creature in a lurch teachings omit heterodoxy? YOU people insult but cannot answer the simple question.
October 10 at 1:23am · Like
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Megan Baird We are taught Church doctrine all the time. Why on earth do you keep on insisting that we are taught so little of supernatural revelation? Because we don't officially study the Catechism in our classroom?
October 10 at 1:23am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg Megan, there is nothing absurd about anything I am saying. Heterodoxy is the teaching of a version of the Catholic Faith that is in variance with a true version of the Faith. Now, the Catholic Faith, and its theology, are based largely and essentially on supernatural principles which may be known only by my ass, not reason. In omitting so much of this in its teaching, yet claiming that it is completely and fully Catholic, even under the authority of the Magisterium, seems to present a heterodox version of the Faith and its theology. Why does TAC do this? What is the reason behind this method? Since we spend eternity in a supernatural realm, it would seem TAC would want to teach this part of the Faith. Why does it not, and, at the same time, say it is truly Catholic?
You will not admit that TAC is not a truly Catholic college.
October 10 at 1:24am · Like
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Megan Baird I won't admit it because it's not true. I don't make a habit of telling untruths.
October 10 at 1:25am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg Up with Weinberg, down with TAC!
October 10 at 1:26am · Like
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Megan Baird I got this:
October 10 at 1:27am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg I am not a troll. You are the troll here. Why will no one answer my question? You are avoiding the question.
October 10 at 1:28am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg TAC cannot restore modern academia.
October 10 at 1:29am · Like
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Edward Langley Megan Baird, look and learn.
October 10 at 1:31am · Like · 2
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Scrott Whineberg Everyone should buy my book. That will set your children straight, not sending them to a fake Catholic college to listen to Victorian men of leisure who are not real theologians.
The medieval bestiality is made of metaphor and enthymeme and directs the soul properly. Thank you.
October 10 at 1:32am · Like
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Edward Langley Tell us more about this medieval bestiality, Scott.
October 10 at 1:35am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg I know you do not like dogma at TAC, but that is sophistry, which leads to a corruption of faith and science. Is it also not true that Thomas erred in this Dogma due to his adherence to Aristotle's notion of ensoulment?
Edward I do not know what you are talking about.
October 10 at 1:37am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg You are profane and vulgar in the face of superior argument. I took classes in rhetoric and served in a political capacity in Washington DC. Thank you.
October 10 at 1:38am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg I say again, up with Weinberg! Down with TAC heretics who espouse untruths and vulgarities in public.
October 10 at 1:39am · Like
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Adrw Lng The crony corruption and destruction is an animal bodies when it's all the soul parts because of lack of conversation. Eating dead animals the fact of finding a corpse and eating at that is profane older. Wellcone.
October 10 at 1:40am · Like
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Adrw Lng Scoot, may I ask you a question?
October 10 at 1:41am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg That was very helpful Adrw, thank you. Now why don't you tell me why TAC does not teach Dogma as it should and calls itself a Catholic college?
October 10 at 1:42am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg Please do not call me Pope.
October 10 at 1:43am · Like
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Adrw Lng I will take that as a yes please tell me the connection between animals and fantasy and mainstream conservative politics. If you refuse to draw a strong connection I will call you a heretic animal.
October 10 at 1:43am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg You would do well to buy and read my new book. Aaron Whitmore said that it guided his mind to truth.
http://www.amazon.com/Animal.../dp/0312180403/ref=sr_1_1...
The Animal In You: Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Your...
AMAZON.COM
October 10 at 1:46am · Like
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Adrw Lng Why do you refuse to talk about your pass and your strange fascination with the creatures of the sea! What is it that you imagine what with your so intricately involved with the municipalities are solved by fantastical beast? How is your position cathic in the face of the fact that there are no in sickles?
October 10 at 1:47am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg It includes an animal personality test to unlock the secrets of your personality.
http://www.amazon.com/Animal.../dp/0312180403/ref=sr_1_1...
The Animal In You: Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Your...
AMAZON.COM
October 10 at 1:47am · Like
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Adrw Lng I notice how you invade my question by proposing that I read a whole book! that is because you know not know question answer.
October 10 at 1:47am · Like
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Adrw Lng What's your animal possibility scoot? What inspires your inner beast do not tell me!
October 10 at 1:48am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg I wish only to magisterium the heterodox beastly and dogma of proposing municipalities and since the dominions new never.
October 10 at 1:48am · Like
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Adrw Lng Finally were onto something
October 10 at 1:49am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg Conside rthe cricket who chirps throughout heresy and less than ten percent of the total dogmas uncorrupted of infallible stakings animal animal blessed.
October 10 at 1:50am · Like
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Adrw Lng Seeing what I've done in this seventh hour, it is very good and I must rest. Goodnight scoot. Goodnight tNet.
Observe and remember dear tNet'ers throughout the internets that *Adrwbot>scoot*
October 10 at 1:54am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Scrott Whineberg= Isak Benedict no?
October 10 at 2:00am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I think I've been had.
October 10 at 2:13am · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Kenz, I think you're right.... wow, am I slow.
October 10 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Mistah Kurtz - he dead. I think Scott is taking his self-parody to the level of meta-troll at this point.
October 10 at 2:14am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Or it's Kenz, casting the blame elsewhere. Scrott messaged me a while ago asking to tag him into the Thread.
October 10 at 2:15am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Whoever it is sounds exactly like Scott.
October 10 at 2:17am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Megan Baird If it's not really Scott, the person impersonating him is genius. Just as frustrating and irritating as the original.
October 10 at 2:17am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Honestly I am pretty confused but nevertheless enjoy the unreality of tNets's dark heart.
October 10 at 2:19am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict I think TNET is about to implode.
October 10 at 2:19am · Like · 4
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz If it is Scott, I will eat my hat...my good hat...the Stetson...
October 10 at 2:19am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict TNET just took eight tabs of LSD and is tripping out at its reflection in the mirror, that's what's happening. Queen Mab has crawled into all our ears and noses and is giving us wild dreams.
October 10 at 2:20am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng At this point I'm sure TNET would be accepted as a novel at some postmodern publisher.
October 10 at 2:21am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Could we all get $$$ for this?
October 10 at 2:21am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz Proportional to post count?
October 10 at 2:22am · Like · 3
--##--%%--##--
Adrw Lng Let's not worry about the details and work together to make it happen!
October 10 at 2:23am · Like
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Isak Benedict Time
October 10 at 2:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict to
October 10 at 2:24am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict start
October 10 at 2:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict post
October 10 at 2:24am · Like
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Joshua Kenz padding
October 10 at 2:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict you
October 10 at 2:25am · Like
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Joshua Kenz 1
October 10 at 2:25am · Like
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Joshua Kenz 2
October 10 at 2:25am · Like
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Isak Benedict thief
October 10 at 2:25am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Okay that's annoying I'll stop it.
October 10 at 2:25am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz J'accuse!
October 10 at 2:25am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz Though not as annoying as haikus
October 10 at 2:26am · Unlike · 2
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Adrw Lng That would be an amazing ending to the novel right there.
October 10 at 2:27am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It is post-modern, it does not have an end.
October 10 at 2:27am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Adrw Lng At "j'accuse"
October 10 at 2:27am · Like
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Isak Benedict I quite agree.
October 10 at 2:28am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg You are all arrogant jerks. I impersonate no one.
October 10 at 2:29am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng
October 10 at 2:29am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz I see Big Angry is online. Now Scrott is in trouble
October 10 at 2:29am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict My hat is off to TNET tonight.
October 10 at 2:29am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Isak Benedict Time for more haiku?
October 10 at 2:30am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg Who is Big Angry?
October 10 at 2:31am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Hmm...thesis: haiku is a fitting form of post-modernism, which is the same as to say intellectual masturbation. Discuss
October 10 at 2:32am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Is that the first line, pseudo-Scott?
October 10 at 2:32am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I don't really hold that^ (about haiku)
October 10 at 2:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like haiku!
October 10 at 2:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I just don't like many of the forms it has taken on TNET.
October 10 at 2:34am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why do my kids know if I am laughing out loud to myself I am reading tNET?
October 10 at 2:34am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman So maybe, Joshua, if you changed that to "bad haiku is a fitting form of post-modernism..."
October 10 at 2:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In seriousness, though, Joshua, I think post-modernity is a healthy thing. And necessary.
October 10 at 2:35am · Like · 1
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Scrott Whineberg Thesis: Joshua Kenz is a typical graduate of a school that pretends to be Catholic, who uses crass metaphors which weaken his argument.
October 10 at 2:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Just popping in to say that fake troll personalities (by Scott or anyone else) is not in good form. I think it is against the honour Code of tNET. We should at least be who we all are. Didn't we take Scott Peregrine to task for that behaviour? Plus -- he says some pretty wild things. Just let him say them. Don't reword them and confuse the thread.
October 10 at 2:36am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Scrott Whineberg Who is Big Angry? Why will no one answer this simple question?
October 10 at 2:36am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, I was thinking specifically of Derrida... certain aspects of post-modernity, I agree with you on.
October 10 at 2:36am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jody Haaf Garneau Go to bed Scrott - -you're drunk
October 10 at 2:36am · Like · 3
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Scrott Whineberg I do not drink.
October 10 at 2:37am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jody Haaf Garneau Then you are not Catholic
October 10 at 2:37am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Oh, well...Derrida...
October 10 at 2:37am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Jody Haaf Garneau Not getting drunk but drinking -- all things in moderation
October 10 at 2:37am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz Maybe that is the problem... he is not sober....sobriety consists in a right use of alcohol....philosophy begins with a good glass of wine, or in my case rot-gut "Scotch" (I am poor...don't judge)
October 10 at 2:38am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Scrott Whineberg I have been practically assaulted by a horde of TAC alum, if that is what you mean by taken to task. And I did nothing improper.
October 10 at 2:38am · Like
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Scrott Whineberg You are arrogant.
October 10 at 2:39am · Like
--##--%%--##--
Joshua Kenz Have you stopped beating your wife?
October 10 at 2:39am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Scrott Whineberg My book is selling very well. And I am a Catholic. That is not easy. This book has been published and praised and you should all read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Animal.../dp/0312180403/ref=sr_1_1...
The Animal In You: Discover Your Animal Type and Unlock the Secrets of Your...
AMAZON.COM
October 10 at 2:40am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Have you stopped beating your wife? Why will Scrott not answer this simple question?
October 10 at 2:41am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Oh great, now I am wasting time mocking a lampoon of a troll....this is a new low
October 10 at 2:41am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I blame the rot gut Scotch
October 10 at 2:41am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I kinda want to read that book though...
October 10 at 2:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict .
no Scott is quite real -
but the spirit of The Thread
shelters all beasties
October 10 at 2:45am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau When the real Scott comes back he'll be rightly ticked off.
October 10 at 2:47am · Like
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Joshua Kenz All I can say to that is "Bitter and Grappa to the Truffles"
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2802574518000&set=pb.1667725797.-2207520000.1412923676.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-xaf1%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F402817_2802574518000_1365234153_n.jpg%3Foh%3D2ad77b12ecd9f3ca2dd0c3d482819e72%26oe%3D54C312E2%26__gda__%3D1425354629_550c935cc009f003e1472c8d2314e5e0&size=540%2C720
#shopinnorciagnosis
October 10 at 2:50am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "Rightly?" I agree that we should all be who we are. But he's really got no right to be ticked off at anything said here any more. He's proved himself time and time again to be incapable of real conversation. If you disagree with him in the slightest, you are anathema.
October 10 at 2:50am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Very nice. We are becoming immune to 1000 milestones. 34,000
October 10 at 2:50am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I would actually like to see someone try to defend his position with charity -- and see what we might learn about TAC and the program. If one asked the right opening question, even alumni would expose their frustrations and the short comings.
October 10 at 2:52am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau But for another time. I'm off to bed.
October 10 at 2:52am · Like
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Joshua Kenz We did that earlier
October 10 at 2:52am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz During the first 10,000 comments
October 10 at 2:52am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict More than once.
October 10 at 2:52am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz I think the 34,000 comment was my "I don't really hold that (about haiku" comment
October 10 at 2:53am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz So, should faithful Catholic all move to a less populated state and make it a Catholic regime?
October 10 at 2:54am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict What state?
October 10 at 2:57am · Like
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Joshua Kenz It would have to be less populous...Wyoming or Alaska?
October 10 at 2:58am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I vote Alaska....
October 10 at 2:58am · Like
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Isak Benedict Not going. Too cold and snowy. And that eternal darkness during part of the year would kill me. SAD
October 10 at 3:02am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Wyoming then?
October 10 at 3:10am · Like
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Joshua Kenz All you need to be warm is booze. #rotgutscotchgnosis
October 10 at 3:11am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Why not Austria?
October 10 at 3:22am · Like
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Joshua Kenz A. I was thinking within the American context
B. Also think a place with less than one million persons already
C. I chose Alaska over Wyoming because it is not landlocked. Austria is landlocked
D. I don't want to destroy the Austrian nationality through such an influx of immigrants.
October 10 at 3:26am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Question for TNET: What should we make of Gregory VII's letter of 1076 to Anzir, the king of Mauritania? Specifically what he says about the Muslim religion? And the consequence of such:
"And therefore we ought to have a charity between us and you in ways more special than with other nations, we who believe and confess the one God, although in a different way, we who daily praise and venerate the Creator of the ages and governor of this world."
And what would this mean for how we should read Nostra Aestate?
http://books.google.com/books?id=NMIUAAAAQAAJ... (page 450-452)
S. Gregorii VII Romani Pontificis Epistolæ et Diplomata pontificia
BOOKS.GOOGLE.COM
October 10 at 4:28am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Yet it seems Muslims don't believe in God at all. As Aquinas states
Ad tertium dicendum quod credere Deum non convenit infidelibus sub ea ratione qua ponitur actus fidei. Non enim credunt Deum esse sub his conditionibus quas fides determinat. Et ideo nec vere Deum credunt, quia, ut philosophus dicit, IX Metaphys., in simplicibus defectus cognitionis est solum in non attingendo totaliter.
ST II II q. 2 a. 2 ad 3
Dicendum, quod duplex est cognitio: una speculativa, et alia affectiva: et neutra mundus Deum cognovit perfecte. Licet enim aliqui Gentilium Deum quantum ad aliqua quae per rationem cognoscibilia erant, cognoverunt; ipsum tamen secundum quod est Pater Filii unigeniti et consubstantialis, non cognoverunt: de qua cognitione loquitur Dominus. Et inde est quod Apostolus dicit, 'Quod notum est' (Rom. 1:19), idest cognoscibile Dei. Sed et si quid speculativa cognitione de Deo cognoscebant, hoc erat cum admixtione multorum errorum . . . Unde dicuntur Deum ignorare. Licet enim in compositis possit partim sciri et partim ignorari; in simplicibus tamen dum non attinguntur totaliter, ignorantur. Unde etsi in minimo aliqui errent circa Dei cognitionem, dicuntur eum totaliter ignorare. Isti ergo non cognoscentes singularem Dei excellentiam, ignorare dicuntur; Rom. 1:21
Commentary on John
Romans 1:18-32 seems to say the same thing.
But how can Aquinas affirm that the philosophers demonstrated that God exists, but then deny that they believe God exists?
Tom Sundaram is up...I wonder if he wants a crack at it.
October 10 at 4:38am · Like · 2
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Tom Sundaram I think one could say that they demonstrated the existence of God notionally understood as cause of created things and perfections, but that as this is to be ignorant they demonstrated God in the way that one examining an effect knows what it required, while not knowing it as one knowing the cause first is able to know the effect it could produce.
"I know God because a prayer was answered, so God must be the sort of thing that answers prayers. What that is, I dunno, but it must be powerful."
October 10 at 4:46am · Like
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Tom Sundaram This is obviously not to believe in God, unless one thinks God is composed of many different causal modes determined by his will or intellect of the telos...so a kind of bizarre modalism positing infinite active and passive potency in God.
October 10 at 4:48am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Wouldn't that mean you cannot demonstrate God exists, by natural reason?
October 10 at 4:58am · Like
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Tom Sundaram Argh I don't understand please don't tax my poor brain, I need it for Italian
October 10 at 5:02am · Like
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Joshua Kenz With the Summa response, it could be said they do not "believe in God" as belief is an act of the virtue of Faith. And he mentions that they do not believe "under those conditions which faith determines." So that seems to suffice to say that they would not have affective knowledge, since that comes with Faith.
But he also denies the speculative knowledge.
Here I will translate
Knowledge is two-fold, one speculative and the other affective. And with neither does the world know God perfectly. For although some of the gentiles knew God in respect to some of the things which are knowable by reason, still they did not know Him insofar as He is the Father of the only begotten and consubstantial Son, of which knowledge our Lord is speaking here. And hence it is that the Apostle says "what is known" (Romans 1:19), i.e. the knowable of God. But if they knew something with speculative knowledge about God, this was with the admixture of many errors....whence they are said to be ignorant of God. For although composite things can be known partly and partly be unknown, still simple things when not touched totally, are unknown. Whence even if some erred in the least concerning the knowledge of God, they are said to be totally ignorant of Him. Therefore those not knowing the singular excellence of God are said to be ignorant Roman 1:21
October 10 at 5:02am · Like
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Joshua Kenz While it has to do with God as "simple", it would seem the defect, which makes them wholly ignorant, is not because of an insufficiency of the proofs of God, right?
October 10 at 5:03am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The Romans passage is interesting here, no?
October 10 at 5:04am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Well I GOT that, what I don't get is how one who proves God is the First Mover doesn't in some way have speculative knowledge of God, despite that God in Himself is perfectly simple.
October 10 at 5:05am · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Aquinas' commentary on Romans is illustrative here too. Paul grants that the gentiles had knowledge of God, and then denies it. What he is showing is that their ignorance of God is culpable. Truths about God were manifested in them, and they corrupted these truths. In corrupting the truths, it is not that they only partially believed in God, but were rendered totally ignorant of God. Yet there are things knowable through creatures about God, manifested to them...that is why the total ignorance is culpable.
Now should we say that the word God is being used equivocally? I don't think so. When we say Aristotle showed God exists at the end of the Physics, we are saying something true about what is knowable about God, manifested in His creatures. When we actually address Aristotle's belief, and Aquinas explicitly names Aristotle here, he is totally ignorant of God.
In short, what I am saying is that there is a real sense where unbelievers wholly fail to "reach God" in their act, beliefs, knowledge. Yet, in another sense they can and have obtained things knowable about God, through reason e.g.. It is as if the one and the same argument and proposition showing something knowable about God is only truly believed about God Himself by the Christian believer, but is necessarily corrupted in the context of the unbeliever. So when a Moslem affirms a creator and governor of this world, they affirm something both true and knowable about God. The proposition itself, taken abstractly, is held in common between us and truly touches upon God. But in the concrete belief of actual people, such a proposition fails to reach God entirely when uttered by an unbeliever, because, necessarily, by holding error about God, the unbeliever fails totally to touch God in those propositions. Just as in Romans, whatever was true and knowable is, in the very concrete existence of such knowledge, corrrupted by the unbelief.
This does not stop us, like it didn't stop Aquinas, from talking about what they and we believe about God in common. But it does mean that those propositions and by extension acts of worship taken concretely don't mean the same thing, nor do they touch the same object, God.
October 10 at 5:09am · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Tom Sundaram Though I guess a consequence is all ignorance has to be a kind of infinite ignorance because He is infinite and simple.
October 10 at 5:08am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Does all of that make sense so far?
October 10 at 5:11am · Like · 1
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Tom Sundaram Yes - it is clearer now. It seems to me that the claim that Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God is just the most wanton theological sycophantic behavior, besides.
October 10 at 5:14am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Well even though the inclusion of Moslems in Lumen gentium was politically motivated, it is still part of the Church's actual magisterium. (Middle Eastern bishops objected to having a whole document on the Jews, and after what was a sacrcastic rejoinder about Hindus and Buddhists we got Nostra Aetate, and then in Lumen Gentium it was objected to, again, singling out the Jews, so Moslems and more broadly theists were added)
And besides, such language was not unprecedented, as Gregory VII showed, even if that to was politically motivated. Seems to me we cannot just reduce it to sycophantic nonsense
October 10 at 5:17am · Like
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Joshua Kenz They acknowledge a Creator, a single God. They profess themselves to hold the faith of Abraham. With us they adore the only (unicum) God.- Lumen gentium
The third point, that with us they adore the only God, would still be problematic right? Not just in Lumen gentium, but also way back in 1076 in St. Gregory VII's letter.
Tthis cannot be adoration in the strict sense (latria worhip), which is impossible without Christ, as has always been taught by the Church. But adorare is sometimes used in a broader sense. Even Aquinas uses it less formally. And actually this is illustrative
Talking about the natural virtue of religion, Aquinas speaks about acts of adoration (inconsistently translated if you want to look up the English, sometimes they use reverence). And what is essential to this act? Recognizing and honoring God under one aspect, namely as creator and governor. Moslems recognize a single creator and governor of the universe. This recognition, as far as it goes, is true. In the context of the natural virtue of religion, we may describe the homage they pay under that aspect as adoration.
The real problem, then, might be that we are used to hearing adoration or adoratio latriae, and veneration for adoratio duliae ( though that is not the same distinction). At least in my experience we associate the English word with a narrower set than the Latin word actually means.
If we understand it as meaning adoration in the sense of the act of the natural virtue of religion, then this isn't a problem at all. In fact, a little later the Council cites Acts. Now the passage is about the unknown god, etc. It is commonly understood, of course, that the pagan Greeks did not worship God actually, but what Paul was showing them was our God was the truth they were reaching for when they recognized an aspect of God as creator and governor.
Now the statement is a little stronger than that, but that is because they recognize a single God precisely under the aspect of creator and governor. What was only implicit in the Greeks, is explicit. But it is not claiming that they worship God aright, or acceptably, certainly not claiming they worship Him in grace and truth, not even claiming acts of the infused virtue of religion.
Considering that the passage was intended (as Nostra aetate being changed was) not to anger Arabs by favoring Jews (at least as regard the impetus for the suggestion), it is stating something positively and non-judgmentally. It does go beyond Nostra aetate which is merely an iteration of what some major religions believe (without really any judgment of said beliefs). But in saying that they adore God, if we read it in the context, it isn't saying all that much. The problem seems to be, because it is so "positive" that we have assumed that this adoration being asserted means adoration in some greater way then the defective and insalutary acts of nature man is capable of.
But then when we connect that to the tenuous way they can be said to believe in God, namely as to wholly not reach Him, it seems the affirmation is even less then what appears. Lumen gentium actually cites the same Roman passage I did. So in a way we might read Vatican II as presenting the case only in its positive aspects. They in fact recognize certain true things about God, and also in fact recognize and act on true things that pertain to natural religion. But this is not to deny that in holding error about God, they "changed the truth of God into a lie." But not in the same degree as the ancient pagans did, they recognize more of the "knowables" about God. Thus they have a real greater commonality, which the Church seems to, of late, to want to emphasize for prudential reasons, without denying the deficiencies.
October 10 at 5:25am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Tom Sundaram, Daniel Lendman I look forward to any critiques (and from others as well). Figured this would be controversial enough to light a fire in TNET.
So have I resolved the "do Moslems believe in the same God" argument?
October 10 at 5:27am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz And would this also mean that Jews don't believe in the same God either? Not just the agnostic Conservative Rabbi I met, or the pantheistic branch of Hasidim but all Jews?
October 10 at 5:29am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joshua, excellent analysis. You have said in a clear and succinct manner what my mind is on the matter.
I am of two minds when it comes to the Jews:
1. On the one hand, I am inclined to think that they believe and worship God (though imperfectly) even as Christians, insofar as they believe in true revelation and not more than true revelation. In this way it could be said that they worship God much in the same way an ignorant Christian might worship God, but with less certainty because there is no supernatural gift of faith.
2. On the other hand, I am inclined to think that Jews fall into the same category as Moslems. Their covenant no longer exists, their sacraments are void. There is hope is in a corpse. Insofar as their beliefs necessitate a rejection of true faith and true religion (not the jeans, Samantha Cohoe ) Therefore, one must argue that their beliefs do not "touch God."
October 10 at 6:52am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia I thought we already had this discussion too.
October 10 at 7:29am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Daniel, I'm inclined to 2.
October 10 at 7:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael Beitia I think we did have this discussion earlier. But I think Joshua Kenz has given a better and fuller account than what was said above.
October 10 at 7:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am also more inclined to the 2nd position I gave regarding the Jews.
October 10 at 7:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Chris Owens, you should get in on this discussion. TNET needs some fresh blood...er...victims...uh...ideas!
October 10 at 7:42am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't understand the jeans comment, but this is before coffee.
October 10 at 7:44am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I was making a sexist joke. Being female I assumed you would no about the high-end Denim retailer, True Religion.
October 10 at 7:45am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Anecdotally, my wife found True Religion jeans for my 18 month old daughter, meaning that my daughter's outfit typically is worth more than my wife's and my outfit put together.
October 10 at 7:46am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman #anecdotegonsis
October 10 at 7:46am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think Mr. Kenz needs to say more about what it means for belief to "touch God"
October 10 at 8:57am · Edited · Like
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Tom Sundaram It seems to me that there is the possibility of, if not direct faith in the Trinity (as they are not Christians) at least indirect trust in God through the belief in his covenant as an inalienable promise.
That said, believing "God will save me" is not the same as believing in the hope given through the Incarnation, especially where there is not invincible ignorance.
October 10 at 8:37am · Like
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Michael Beitia I've always been troubled by the idea of "invincible ignorance". Can you say more about that Tom?
October 10 at 8:49am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Hasn't it been proved on tNET ?
October 10 at 9:05am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia bwahahaha^
October 10 at 9:06am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, I don't think so John, that seems more like a case of "bad will" not ignorance
October 10 at 9:06am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia seriously though, Isn't "invincible ignorance" one of those phrases like "perfect contrition" that is really impossible to ascertain? Calling Theologians......
October 10 at 9:16am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Joshua Kenz--this position of Aquinas's seems too strong, but it seems like his arguments follow. Basically, I'm confused. But wouldn't it mean that *any* error about God meant no knowledge? So not just Jews and Moslems, but also Orthodox Christians who made mistakes about the essence/energies thing (assuming for the sake of argument that those are mistaken). It seems like the argument goes too far, but I don't see how or why.
October 10 at 9:21am · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You don't have to be able to ascertain "invincible ignorance" in a particular case for it to be a valid concept
October 10 at 9:24am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger There are many anecdotes about perfect or at least effective final contrition.
October 10 at 9:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sigh. I'm being accused on a (very) different thread of "suggesting fear of black protestors running wild, threatening the safety of white women."
October 10 at 9:26am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not sure. A "valid concept" of a moral judgement must exist actually at some time, right? That there is no inherent contradiction isn't proof that it is actually a "thing"
October 10 at 9:26am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because I expressed the hope, to a friend who lives in the neighborhood, that the protests will continue to stay non-violent
October 10 at 9:26am · Like
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Joel HF John 5:46 (among other passages) seems to say that rejecting Christ means that one rejects the prophets as well
October 10 at 9:28am · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger and invincible ignorance is not salvific. It is a veiled hope. No anecdotes. EENS still applies. That is all we know.
October 10 at 9:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Christians have infused faith, Joel HF. Faith puts us in contact with God, regardless of our misconceptions. (with some qualifications on the last part.)
October 10 at 9:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill It is not the non violent protests at issue, but the protests are defending violent crime, which has resulted in more violent crime, another shoutout and more protests against police reaction to violent crime.
I love Fergusson. I've eaten at the whistle stop cafe, and frequented the Fergusson brewery. The cops there do tend to over respond to minor offenses though. (You get pulled over if you go 2 mph over the 35mph speed limit.... But all of St. Louis is stupid like this, due to having cities that are 1sqmi. I think crime would go down if that region would incorporate into fewer cities and reduce the number of individual police departments).
October 10 at 9:49am · Like
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Michael Beitia but if I have faith in man-faced ox progeny, it doesn't mean that I'm in contact with it, similarly, if my "conception" of God is so askew, am I really in contact with God?
October 10 at 9:50am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's one of the all time best senior & thesis titles ever: "PREACHING TO THE CHOIR: A summary of the complete Ronald McArthur Lecture Series to the students of TAC, 1969-1996" by Andrw Lng.
October 10 at 9:51am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill As for Jews, are they not waiting for the Son of God? Is the trinity not within reach upon recognition of Christ and God's love?
Or are hardened hearts immutable?
October 10 at 9:52am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffie-- I think it's way oversimplifying to say that the protests are defending violent crime. That might seem to be the case in this particular instance, but the offense goes much deeper than that.
October 10 at 9:52am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg This is a good one too. "THE PART IS GREATER THAN THE WHOLE: How the Church has really only said two infallible things over the past couple thousand years" by Johesefat Esc.
October 10 at 9:53am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think you're right about incorporation, though
October 10 at 9:53am · Like
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Jeff Neill Yeah why is Fergusson its own city?
October 10 at 9:54am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Did you know the hilton hotel is in a city of 300 people and only 500 yards wide?
October 10 at 9:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe racist zoning, I think.
October 10 at 9:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Here is a good one Scott:
Accomplishing what Never Will Be
A thesis by Scott Weinberg
October 10 at 9:55am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I love the smell of TNET in the morning.
October 10 at 9:56am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Yes, the civil war started in St. Louis with the deed scott case and the racism is bad.
"East St Louis"
October 10 at 9:56am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I could never live there due to the racism.
October 10 at 9:57am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The thing is, it's so super-segregated here that it's fairly easy to avoid if you're a white person.
October 10 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill "What high school did you go to?" (St Louis code for determining your caste)
October 10 at 9:58am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I've gone into areas that I got looks.
October 10 at 9:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's one more: "Towards a credible exegesis of Scripture: talking about doctrine 'all the time' in seminar."
October 10 at 10:00am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe We live in a rare fairly racially mixed neighborhood, and go to an intentionally racially integrated church, but just because we're sort of hipster and choose those sorts of things.
October 10 at 10:00am · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Missouri is still populated with Bushwackers. Come to the Free State of Kansas.
October 10 at 10:01am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I didn't think about the racially integrated part of the equation until I got here and realized, hey, that's unusual in St. Louis
October 10 at 10:01am · Like
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Jeff Neill My friend lived in the heart of flourissant... For the cheap rent.
October 10 at 10:01am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Bushwackers have always lacked discretion. Jayhawkers are Christian.
October 10 at 10:02am · Like
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Michael Beitia it is the Midwest, Samantha, it is weird
October 10 at 10:02am · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe *not actually hipster. I just mean we like things that certain segments of our generation who might be hipsters also tend to like
October 10 at 10:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, on that we can agree.
October 10 at 10:02am · Like
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Scott Weinberg California is weird.
October 10 at 10:02am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe California isn't still playing out Jim Crow era politics the way St. Louis is, though.
October 10 at 10:03am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill What is weird about ca?
October 10 at 10:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia or Chicago
October 10 at 10:04am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Chicago is the death star.
October 10 at 10:04am · Like
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Scott Weinberg You're right Jeff, there is nothing weird about CA.
October 10 at 10:04am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I got that jerk philosopher to apologize for accusing me of white lady racism. So I win facebook today.
October 10 at 10:05am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia not hardly.
Slay some trolls first
October 10 at 10:05am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Chicago has done more than Detroit to survive post-industrialization
October 10 at 10:06am · Like
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Michael Beitia depends on where in Chicago....
October 10 at 10:06am · Like
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Jeff Neill I didn't say ca isn't quirky, I just want to know what you think is weird.
October 10 at 10:06am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I love California!
October 10 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I've only wandered around Racine west of Chicago, and of course the downtown area
October 10 at 10:10am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, try Gnocchi this way. Roll in lite olive oil with a little grated parmesan. Top with crushed tomatoes (without skins), heated very quickly in stainless pan, with a bit of salt and a tiny bit of garlic. Sprinkle with fresh basil. Serve with dark green romaine salad.
October 10 at 10:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, I think the chauvinistic entitlement ideology generated from Hollywood is weird. The past couple of Governors have been very weird, and I certainly think the gaia nature worship is quite weird too.
October 10 at 10:19am · Like
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Jeff Neill What people struggle understanding about California is size. There are only 4 zones. SoCal (south of San Francisco), Sacramento (east of Frisch), and the North (anything in the wasteland north of Frisco).
October 10 at 10:20am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That explains it.
October 10 at 10:20am · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol....
October 10 at 10:20am · Like
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Jeff Neill Entitlement? Actors are waiters in restaurants...
October 10 at 10:21am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The rest of the country does not see that reality. They just see the ideology.
October 10 at 10:22am · Like
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Jeff Neill You know enough actors, you Lear. It is like a school play. Yeah I acted once, but now I do -----
October 10 at 10:22am · Like
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Adrw Lng Letter in the local paper from this morning
October 10 at 10:23am · Unlike · 3
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Scott Weinberg Hollywood fuels chauvinistic entitlement syndrome, it is glorified on TV and the internet.
October 10 at 10:24am · Like
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Jeff Neill When people visit ca I used to drive them through Hollywood and they were shocked to see an industrial area. With warehouses of movie sets.
October 10 at 10:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill Entitled to what?
October 10 at 10:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill No different from any other region, except the weather is AWESOME.
Totally entitled to sunshine
October 10 at 10:27am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Although there is drought.
Excess in the virtue of no rain.
October 10 at 10:29am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Most film and tv is done in Canada due to tax evasion and avoiding the unions.
October 10 at 10:30am · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill With a population in the southern region of 22.7m it is 10 times the people of Kansas.
October 10 at 10:36am · Like · 1
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Joel HF For Michael Beitia (and all Bolins everywhere, per Joshua Kenz's glorious story earlier):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzMJhOwBLqw
METALLICA - ORION(STUDIO VERSION)
METALLICA WITH THE AWESOME STUDIO VERSION OF ORION,,,,ENJOY.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg California also has ten times the number of electoral votes as Kansas. California's liberalism owns so much of the current turmoil.
October 10 at 10:39am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The vast majority of Kansans live according to Christian values.
October 10 at 10:40am · Like
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Jeff Neill "California, the most populous state, contains more people than the 21 least populous states combined"
October 10 at 10:41am · Like
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Joel HF ^Scoot: Not if they don't fully magisterium the magisterial teachings according to first principal principles of theology.
October 10 at 10:41am · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill And benefit from California subsidies and tax dollars. If we didn't put corn into the gas....
October 10 at 10:42am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yup. They just don't teach what the Church teaches at the most Catholic little college in Santa Paula.
October 10 at 10:42am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thank you CA for the corn input.
October 10 at 10:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill Lol
October 10 at 10:43am · Like
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Scott Weinberg But to hell with your porn input.
October 10 at 10:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill My family is from cloud county Kansas.
October 10 at 10:43am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yay-haw!
October 10 at 10:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill Thanks to the Internet, that all comes from Russia
October 10 at 10:44am · Like
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Jeff Neill Migrant workers... You move to where the jobs are. If they are in California you move there, but if they are elsewhere you move there instead.
October 10 at 10:46am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Especially if you're from Mexico or Costa Rica.
October 10 at 10:47am · Like
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Jeff Neill Nothing wrong with being from either.
October 10 at 10:47am · Like
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Scott Weinberg They are sovereign nations, but a lot of people apparently just don't want to live there.
October 10 at 10:48am · Like
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Jeff Neill If you went to Mexico, you would leave. The boarder towns live on squaller
October 10 at 10:48am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Yep. If you went to Canada, you might want to leave too.
October 10 at 10:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill When my parents took me there as a child I cried for the suffering people.
October 10 at 10:49am · Like
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Scott Weinberg wow. you were sensitive.
October 10 at 10:50am · Like
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Jeff Neill The Mexican people are industrious, creating jobs where ever they go.
October 10 at 10:51am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Should we let them all in, or should we help their government help their own people?
October 10 at 10:51am · Like
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Jeff Neill You have not seen miles and miles of cardboard homes and people living in piles of rubble.
October 10 at 10:52am · Like
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Jeff Neill Let them in.
October 10 at 10:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Let them in. Make them citizens.
October 10 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman No reason not to.
October 10 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill They create jobs.
October 10 at 10:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Fill out a sheet with personal info. Background check. Vaccinations. Welcome to the United States.
October 10 at 10:53am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill They don't need to be "hired" they start businesses, very inspirational.
October 10 at 10:53am · Like
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Jeff Neill Most go back to Mexico for medical treatment, since medical care is cheaper there
October 10 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I have friends that go to Mexico for major operations for that reason
October 10 at 10:55am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The whole citizenship process should take a week and cost $25.
October 10 at 10:55am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I have seen cardboard homes in Port-au-Prince.
October 10 at 10:55am · Like
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Scott Weinberg The USA admits more immigrants and refugees each year than all the other nations of the world combined.
October 10 at 10:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill Is that 60 miles from your current home? Can you drive there in an hour?
October 10 at 10:56am · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, haiti is a long way from here.
October 10 at 10:57am · Like
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Scott Weinberg You seem to be advocating for an open border.
October 10 at 10:57am · Like
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Jeff Neill If you had that level of poverty in your backyard, you would care.
October 10 at 10:58am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Are you saying I do not care?
October 10 at 10:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am in favor of an open border.
October 10 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Closed borders are for tyrants
October 10 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman And are impossible.
October 10 at 10:59am · Like
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Jeff Neill I worked homeland security.... Who do you think help design the systems were building?
October 10 at 10:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Except maybe for England.
October 10 at 10:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Citizenship presupposes the nation of your birth. Not your economic circumstance.
October 10 at 11:03am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg I think such open border liberalism is a discrimination against Americans.
October 10 at 11:01am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Scott you just said the most "chauvinistic entitlement" statement yet.
I guess you are a member of the "haves"
October 10 at 11:02am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I think you are discriminating against me now.
October 10 at 11:03am · Like
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Jeff Neill Boo hoo
October 10 at 11:04am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg How about if we design a nation where everything is equal?
October 10 at 11:04am · Like
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Jeff Neill I have mine in Kansas and everyone should be like me.
October 10 at 11:04am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, let me give you some of my land, so we can be equal.
October 10 at 11:05am · Like
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Jeff Neill Why would I go there?
October 10 at 11:05am · Like
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Jeff Neill Get a cushy government t job?
October 10 at 11:06am · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, no speakers at "work"
October 10 at 11:06am · Like
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Scott Weinberg So things are equal, you can have it.
October 10 at 11:06am · Like
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Jeff Neill Live on the back of taxpayers? Equal?
October 10 at 11:07am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I guess I am one of the "haves"... I have a lovely wife and we have six beautiful children.
October 10 at 11:07am · Like
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Scott Weinberg I don't live on the back of taxpayers.
October 10 at 11:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia ever had a government job?
October 10 at 11:08am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Michael Beitia--and here I thought you were a rebel.
October 10 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Maybe all immigrants should get government jobs and live on taxpayers.
October 10 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia a Rebel? Maybe in the Camus sense, but here at "work" I have no speakers.
October 10 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I served the good people of South River, just down the road from Christendom College. That was an honor.
October 10 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia on the backs of taxpayers
October 10 at 11:09am · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Public service is an obligation.
October 10 at 11:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia or a gravy train
October 10 at 11:10am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg It depends. There is a lot of abuse. OIG does not always come through.
October 10 at 11:10am · Like
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Jeff Neill Expanding the US south may be an option, but we should probably expand north as well
October 10 at 11:12am · Like
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Jeff Neill The queen doesn't need Canada anymore.
October 10 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I'd agree with that. I'm part of the annex Canada movement.
October 10 at 11:14am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg But, if you are going to grant everyone citizenship, why even make them work? Just pay them to be citizens.
October 10 at 11:13am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Anyway, gotta run.
October 10 at 11:14am · Like
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Jeff Neill They are migrating for work.... Not for government jobs.
They create businesses.
October 10 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If you have ever driven on a road, you have lived off the backs of taxpayers.
October 10 at 11:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The whole distinction between "doers" and "takers" is foolish in the extreme.
October 10 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Citizenship has other requirements.
Mexicans are predominately catholic, not Isis
October 10 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I was just chiding Scott for immigrating from Canada and holding a string of government jobs and not working in private industry.
October 10 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman If Republicans go onto the "responsible path to citizenship" track and off the "you did something wrong" track, they would win elections for a long time.
October 10 at 11:20am · Like
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Max Summe Fun discussion topic - the mild absurdity of the Christendom dress code for women... https://christendom.edu/life/handbook.pdf
October 10 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Max, I don't know if tacers should throw stones in that particular glass house.
October 10 at 11:25am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Dress codes for women are impossibly difficult.
October 10 at 11:25am · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia and a pointless exercise in Pharisee.....
October 10 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was part of the Administrative Team for the High School I worked at, and the Team decided that the women teachers of the school should get together and decide on their own dress code. The only thing that the (male) principal stipulated (because he was asked directly) is that he did not think capris were appropriate.
The whole thing ended up FUBAR
October 10 at 11:28am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Angry female high school teachers are scary.
October 10 at 11:28am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Lol
October 10 at 11:28am · Like
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Jeff Neill And capris are scary.
October 10 at 11:29am · Like
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John Ruplinger Dress code discussions are like this thread in some ways. But I used to try to hide whenever they eternally returned.
October 10 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia capris? I prefer to call them Schpantz
October 10 at 11:32am · Like
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John Ruplinger And that dress code, Max, is weird.
October 10 at 11:35am · Like
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Adrw Lng That Metallica is so decadent Joel HF, it's like lowbrow 20th century Wagner
October 10 at 11:36am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia at "work" we have "National Speak Like James Hetfield Day-ah!"
October 10 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma Give Orion a listen seriously and you'll change your mind Adrw.
October 10 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzMJhOwBLqw
METALLICA - ORION(STUDIO VERSION)
METALLICA WITH THE AWESOME STUDIO VERSION OF ORION,,,,ENJOY.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Booty, that's the exact link I posted above.
October 10 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia plus, Joel, I hate Orion. From Betelgeuse to the smallest star I can't name. hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
October 10 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^That's why I posted the video!
October 10 at 11:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia to torment me? What have I done to you (specifically)
October 10 at 11:42am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Wait, now we need cause to torment others on tNET?
October 10 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Uh-oh.
October 10 at 11:42am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Some of us who take tNET more seriously- wait not even I can type that....
October 10 at 11:44am · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng <- Former metal/blues guitarist...I am quite familiar with Metallica. And Master of Puppets is as decadent as the genre comes, which is a compliment compared to the genre's vices.
October 10 at 11:45am · Like
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Erik Bootsma What makes it decadent?
October 10 at 11:46am · Like
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Joel HF I generally cannot stand Wagner, but have a bit of a soft spot for early Metallica. Plus, the idea of Kenz blasting out Metallica to get even with his suite-mate is innately hilarious.
October 10 at 11:48am · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg www.dhs.gov/national-cyber-security-awareness-month-2014
National Cyber Security Awareness Month 2014 | Homeland Security
The cyber threat has become one of the most serious...
DHS.GOV
October 10 at 11:51am · Like
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Scott Weinberg https://www.usajobs.gov/
USAJOBS - The Federal Government’s Official Jobs Site
This is a United States Office of Personnel Management...
USAJOBS.GOV
October 10 at 11:52am · Like
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Adrw Lng Eric Bootsma: It's an epic bender of moral decay: abuse of persons and substances, a celebration of anger. Of course fans would claim it's an attempt at criticism, like Wagner. But like Wagner, Metallica fails to distance themselves from the problem. Heck, has anyone been to a metal concert? Chaos reigns.
October 10 at 11:57am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Catholic school dress code discussions as regards modesty ---> Linda Blair syndrome. Why is that?
October 10 at 11:57am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's a dumb question John
October 10 at 11:57am · Like
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John Ruplinger stupid statement
October 10 at 11:59am · Like
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Jeff Neill Christendom has standard east coast business attire for the national capital region.
October 10 at 12:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Coat and tie is standard.
October 10 at 12:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And a tendentious question
October 10 at 12:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I'm surprised they don't have something as ridiculous as academic gowns and caps
October 10 at 12:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger and I am talking about the actual discussions in those schools. Of course it is not always fireworks.
October 10 at 12:03pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill FUS has the only legitimate dress code for a university.
October 10 at 12:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Dress defines the person. Dress accordingly to who you want to be.
October 10 at 12:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger cap and gowns would be cool. Not the throw away kind.
October 10 at 12:05pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Only by choice
October 10 at 12:05pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Here is a fascinating article having nothing to do dress codes or metal:
http://dcurt.is/the-best
The Best • Dustin Curtis
When I got back to San Francisco after a three month trip to Southeast Asia last year, I had no possessions. I was...
DCURT.IS
October 10 at 12:06pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma I'm very suspicious of musical criticism about music which has standards extrinsic to the music itself. You can pick other songs apart, but the purely instrumental work aren't decadent any more than they are moral.
You may be able to talk about minor vs major keys as being "depressed" or not, but I have a problem calling something decadent or angry.
If that's the case then Beethoven is pretty damned decadent.
October 10 at 12:08pm · Like · 2
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Erik Bootsma If you want anger go with the Melvins or Bad Religion. They do it better.
Michael Beitia.
October 10 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Reverend Horton Heat.
October 10 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Oh there are certainly angrier bands than Metallica. I also think the claim that Master of Puppets is angry decadence is so obvious it borders on superficial.
October 10 at 12:10pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I mean, come on people. Just listen to Beethoven and Metallica. It should be self evident to all that both are equally decadent.
October 10 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Ok now is when we all drop our arguments and beat up on Scott. GO!
October 10 at 12:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg (O no. Did I spell decadent right? Phew.)
October 10 at 12:14pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Also, I strongly disagree with the claim that instrumental works aren't moral. All music, as such, is moral. Music imitates the soul and specific songs musically imitate specific states of the soul.
October 10 at 12:15pm · Unlike · 6
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Jeff Neill
October 10 at 12:16pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Where do our fashions come from and what does it say about who we want to become, Jeff?
October 10 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF The instrumental piece I posted is more tonal than Wagner. In fact, most rock music is quite tonal. The decadent part would be the beat, and the loud electronic instruments. But when it comes to tonality, metal doesn't have much of a problem. (Some prog-metal gets atonal, I suppose.)
October 10 at 12:20pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Scott, I trust you were being facetious about the Beethoven Metallica thing
October 10 at 12:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Tonality is not the only measure of good music.
October 10 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^True. I just wanted to address that one aspect.
October 10 at 12:21pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I love that question John
October 10 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti The Christendom dress code is so specific in it's guidelines for women! (paging Dr. Freud). I seek to rectify that. Suggested additions to Christendom men's dress code: 1) Dress shirts must be light in color. Dark red and dark green shirts are for midwestern teenage dances at the grange hall. Grown men with actual professional jobs do not wear dark colored shirts. 2) Men shall wear their pants at the waist. Your gut is not the college's concern. Pull your pants up, chubby. 3) No goatees. Wearing a goatee makes you History's greatest monster. They haven't been considered cool or stylish since 1993. 4) Your pants should end at the top of your shoe. Are your pants bunching up around your ankle? If yes, you are a slob. 5) ties should not have bookshelves, Disney characters or other characters from comic books. Ask: is my tie funny? If so, please change it. 6) Men shall expose their feet and legs to the sun at least 30 minutes per month. If your feet are pasty and damp in appearance, you are in violation of the dress code. 7) No shoes with square toes. If this requires an explanation, you will be expelled immediately. 8) No black dress pants. In the world of men, black dress pants do not exist. Here is who wears black dress pants: waiters, hicks who bought a wedding outfit at Sam's Club, and . . . no one else.
October 10 at 12:23pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman If you wish to be a good judge of music, listen to Mozart hours on end, and daily for a year. Then, once your soul is ordered again, you might be able to judge other music well.
October 10 at 12:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Fashion by its nature is temporal and thoroughly modern. It is material, color, texture, and shape and compliments the human form.
October 10 at 12:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Christendom Dress code is fairly reasonable, actually.
October 10 at 12:25pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman The specifics are merely given as guidelines.
October 10 at 12:25pm · Unlike · 1
--##--%%--##--
Joel HF Mozart's ok, but this Kochel fellow was a prolific genius.
October 10 at 12:25pm · Like
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Joel HF ^And Kochel was so organized! All his pieces by number!
October 10 at 12:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aaron, do you like this? Does anyone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-INeMspNSQ0
John Cale & Brian Eno / Spinning Away
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 12:26pm · Like
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Joel HF Favorite Mozart piece? Mine might be the Piano Concerto in d minor. (But only b/c I heard it most recently.)
October 10 at 12:28pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I would be loathe to point to 1 favorite, but this duet always makes my heart soar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3mMS4139Cg
Mozart La Clemenza Di Tito Ah, perdona al primo affetto
Gorgeous duet! Tito Eric Tappy Sesto Tatiana Troyanos...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 12:30pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Scott, no, I don't, and yes, arty college guys in the 80s liked it.
October 10 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman A beautiful production as well/
October 10 at 12:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I only read the summer dress code. It gives me heeby jeebies. And I love skirts and dresses . . . ahem . . . not meaning that I . . .
October 10 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ugh... No I did not like that spinning away song
October 10 at 12:31pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Christendom students lined up for job of measuring the distance from the collar bone to the top of the dress.
October 10 at 12:35pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg What about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKTHZ-6AF8U
The Hut of Baba Yaga;The Great Gates of Kiev - Emerson, Lake and Palmer, 1972
From "Pictures at an Exhibition", Emerson, Lake and...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill But I love white dress socks....
October 10 at 12:36pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, I was going to ask, "what if I'm wearing a white linen suit?"
October 10 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Measuring distances and mandating shapeless clothing is very puritanical.
October 10 at 12:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Mad props.
October 10 at 12:38pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Old school rules.... "The socks match the trousers"
October 10 at 12:39pm · Like
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Jeff Neill "The belt and shoes match"
October 10 at 12:40pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Big guys can wear double breasted jackets
October 10 at 12:41pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, I'm not joking when I say that those rules are far more valuable that the weird, senseless puritanism in the actual dress code.
October 10 at 12:41pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill "Sweater vests are right out".
October 10 at 12:41pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "Tie and pocket square should not match identically" will get you way farther in life than "no spaghetti straps."
October 10 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Your facile Christendom bashing is a smokescreen. Fact of the matter is, anything called "progressive" past 1989 is decadent.
October 10 at 12:42pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Definitely. Senseless Puritanism is standard in New England.
October 10 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Irish-American Jansenism is standard at small Catholic colleges.
October 10 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I stayed at Christendom for a week and saw every rule in that manual broken.
October 10 at 12:44pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I had flashes of certain people in my past at the dress code that almost sent me into a panic. No that is not whom I want my children to become. But I don't have a problem with length specs. Its an interesting discussion. Jeff mentioned "choice" - that's a democratic spirit and one reason folks get overheated.
October 10 at 12:44pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The manual is for puritanical parents.
October 10 at 12:44pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti If I ever start a small Catholic College, the dress code will read: "Dress appropriately. We'll know it when we see it."
October 10 at 12:45pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill You have 18 years to teach your children and instruct them and form them.
October 10 at 12:46pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I will take Irish-American Jansenism over French-Canadian Jansenism anyday.
October 10 at 12:46pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill Hahaha
October 10 at 12:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill There are other kinds?
October 10 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There is nothing unreasonable about dress-codes.
October 10 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman per se.
October 10 at 12:47pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill There is nothing worse than "tie is mandatory"
October 10 at 12:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I've seen some horrible ties and suits worn by people that thought wearing a suit is more appropriate for business
October 10 at 12:49pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill then they wore a suit that was clearly 15 years old, with an ill-fitting shirt, printed silk tie
October 10 at 12:50pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "Dress appropriately, and with formally appropriate to the dignity of the classroom. No shorts, no jeans, no midriffs, nothing you might wear on the beach in the summer. Definitely no sandals. If you wear birkenstocks with socks you will be expelled immediately."
October 10 at 12:50pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I used to tell the headmistress at my kids' former school, Ill take a clean polo shirt and shorts over a ratty tie, stained dress shirt and patched pants any day of the week.
October 10 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Why do we keep bashing Jansenism?
October 10 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill No sandals? ugh....
October 10 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill no uggs
October 10 at 12:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I meant, like, casual sandals
October 10 at 12:52pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha Cohoe It's the one "cool" heresy for orthodox Catholics.
October 10 at 12:52pm · Like
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Jeff Neill flip-flops?
October 10 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Jansenism = strawman. Are there really any Jansenites?
October 10 at 12:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill flo-jos?
October 10 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, no flip flops
October 10 at 12:53pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe This is for TAC, where "formality" is supposed to be the driving principle of the dress code
October 10 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--dang decadent opera, w/ the cross-dressing!
October 10 at 12:54pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti No, John Ruplinger, not really. But its emanations and penumbras are floating around certain circles.
October 10 at 12:54pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti These dress codes are less about "Christian Modesty" and more about nostalgia for 1950s, suburban "respectability."
October 10 at 12:55pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti When you put your 7 year old kid in a coat and tie for Mass, he doesn't look respectable, formal or modest. He looks odd. I realize that for some that is not a bug but a feature.
October 10 at 12:56pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Is the denim dress still a popular habit at TAC?
October 10 at 12:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Don't know. There were still some jumper wearers in my time
October 10 at 12:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe They were certainly not the majority
October 10 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I do not doubt that formailty and modesty are confused with mandated frumpiness
October 10 at 12:58pm · Like
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John Ruplinger An updated 50s WASP dress code, Aaron.
October 10 at 12:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Which is weird, because jumper frumpiness is not formal at all.
October 10 at 12:59pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I was one of the many many men at TAC who proved that one could follow every rule of the dress code and look (and occasionally smell) like a hobo.
October 10 at 12:59pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti There is a generation of devout Catholics trying to recreate the life their parents had in pre-conciliar suburban Pittsburgh that they've seen in old scrapbooks and home movies.
October 10 at 12:59pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe One of the vast majority of the men, Joel.
October 10 at 1:00pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF But everyone focused on modesty. And, on the other side of things, I suppose a giant hoodie and a ratty jean skirt is technically modest but it's far from formal.
October 10 at 1:00pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When it gets cold at TAC...layers of clothing happens
October 10 at 1:02pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The modesty focus is whack. Caused all kinds of problems.
October 10 at 1:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill modesty is poorly defined... naturally
October 10 at 1:01pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Modesty is a personal attribute. If you force someone into a long skirt, you have not made them modest, you've only forced them into a facsimile of modesty.
October 10 at 1:02pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The driving principle for the dress code at TAC is formality, and that is how it should be.
October 10 at 1:04pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman The TAC dress code was also drafted by students.
October 10 at 1:04pm · Unlike · 1
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Joel HF There were even some men at TAC who would button the top button of the shirt and wouldn't wear belts!
October 10 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There are ways in which the dress code ought be changed, in my opinion.
October 10 at 1:05pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Let us wear nothing, as long we are internally modest, and formal.
October 10 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF The TAC Dress Code misses formality by a mile.
October 10 at 1:05pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman But that does not mean that it is bad that it happend.
October 10 at 1:05pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I've been to formal events. Formal events are friends of mine, and I am here to tell you that students at TAC do not look formal. They looks like kids who hang a pre-tied tie on their door knob.
October 10 at 1:05pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman We had a modesty discussion 30,000 comments ago, and I think I made Joshua Kenz angry with my position.
October 10 at 1:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah, those formal events are veritable freak show.
October 10 at 1:06pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The best definition of modesty is that one attracts the right amount and right kind of attention to oneself.
October 10 at 1:06pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Like the Emperor's new clothes?
October 10 at 1:07pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is more easily defined negatively: Not drawing undue attention to oneself.
October 10 at 1:09pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I had a deal with the head prefect Junior year that I would not wear my "technically" dress code East German paratrooper pants, if he lighten up about my non-dress code corduroys. It was the spirit, not the letter
October 10 at 1:08pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Dudes complaining about women stretching out before they go for a jog. First few weeks of school the prefects told us this complaint had been made it was being resolved. I was so confused.
Why is that a problem, in any - wait a minute - why are you staring at them? That's incredible rude and boorish and could even be harassment. Where are you staring at them from - er, don't answer that.
October 10 at 1:18pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Under this definition of modesty, (which I hold coincides with Aquinas') it becomes manifest that jumpers are in fact not modest, because they become part of Matthew J. Peterson's veritable freak show.
October 10 at 1:08pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill But that is often misunderstood by not taking a large enough poll of population.
October 10 at 1:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill The freak show is the population... Get your freak on
October 10 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Aaron, I am inclined to agree with you about the lack of formality at TAC.
October 10 at 1:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia coming from a large public high school and a non-Catholic upbringing, dress code struck me as the weirdest thing at TAC when I first got there.
October 10 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I think that should be changed.
October 10 at 1:10pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Modesty is the virtue of temperance as it relates to how we interact with others in society.
October 10 at 1:10pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I too came from a large public school in the ghetto.
October 10 at 1:10pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti People whose modesty you should be concerned with: You and your children. Dudes worrying about women's modesty is creepy. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true. I mean people find this REALLY creepy. Like, peeping tom creepy. The only people who take it seriously when guys start talking about women's modesty are other dudes like them.
October 10 at 1:10pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Because as soon as you hear that (my comment above) you know damn well it is not that some brazen strumpets were getting their freak on in front of the prying eyes of campus before jogging around like Pamela Anderson on Baywatch.
No, it sounded more like some creepy dudes were passing the buck.
October 10 at 1:11pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill It isn't about being formal... Formal is not practical.
October 10 at 1:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman John, that definition is too general. That could also belong to the virtue that is opposite to the vice of boorishness.
October 10 at 1:11pm · Like
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John Ashman ISIS is very concerned about the modesty of women.
October 10 at 1:11pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Although I kind of like the freak show. It makes everything so festive and hilarious in a gypsy kind of way for me every time I visit. Shire-like.
October 10 at 1:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I agree with Ashman.
October 10 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--do you remember the visitor (a sibling of a TAC student, I think) our senior year, who was dressed in a neon lime green "pilgrim's suit"? W/ the hat and the pantaloons and the stockings and the buckle shoes? (Nathanael McGarry is my witness, this dude really existed.)
October 10 at 1:13pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ashman Gypsies are hot. At least, on TV they are.
October 10 at 1:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sadly, Joel HF, yes.
October 10 at 1:13pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Some are attracted by the education, some by the show
October 10 at 1:13pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman TAC attracts strange people. Like "Ben, Master of the Universe."
October 10 at 1:14pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia it isn't the Shire, Matthew J. Peterson, it is Hogwarts.
October 10 at 1:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The TAC lecture series is a formal event, and students should dress appropriately. They should all wear surplus choir robes, because the lecture series is always preaching to the choir.
October 10 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, if you go to a normal campus...wearing spandex workout undies to class is a part of everyday life.
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Eh. That's not ideal either.
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Jeff Neill: Come for the education, stay for the show. That was my motto.
October 10 at 1:15pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman I tell you, I certainly didn't go to a private liberal arts college for the hot women. I had to go swap to Penn State just to get laid.
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Heheheheh. Scott you didn't go to many lectures did you?!?!
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ROFLAMO!
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, that is so true. Gas station attendants in the 1950 didn't wear neckties because they were formal or modest. They wore them because that was just what people wore. BTW, "formal" has a specific meaning. It means black or white tie in the evening and "morning dress" during the day. A suit is not "formal."
October 10 at 1:14pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill There was that other guy, who wore robes and did interpretive dance.... Eventually left with men in white coats and a police escort.
October 10 at 1:15pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman You are right about "formal" Aaron.
October 10 at 1:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Though formal now has a range of meaning.
October 10 at 1:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Daniel, you need to look up modesty in the Summa. You may be surprised.
October 10 at 1:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman John Ruplinger, I have.
October 10 at 1:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Many times.
October 10 at 1:16pm · Like
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Joel HF One of the tutors (whom I won't name) said "The way I look, dressing is an act of charity, not modesty."
October 10 at 1:17pm · Edited · Like · 3
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David Deavel No comment. I've just seen this thread so many times that the peer pressure got to me. I want to be a part of it even if I have nothing to add. (Which is symptomatic of so many of my and others' comments;))
October 10 at 1:18pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg This is part of the Christendom dress code. TAC can use it if you want:
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.
October 10 at 1:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Welcome, David Deavel. Do you have any tenure track positions open for us up in the north country?
October 10 at 1:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman John Ruplinger, this is what I am thinking of:
"This lack of moderation occurs in two ways. First, in comparison with the customs of those among whom one lives; wherefore Augustine says (Confess. iii, 8): "Those offenses which are contrary to the customs of men, are to be avoided according to the customs generally prevailing, so that a thing agreed upon and confirmed by custom or law of any city or nation may not be violated at the lawless pleasure of any, whether citizen or foreigner. For any part, which harmonizeth not with its whole, is offensive."
II-IIae, Q. 169 a. 1
October 10 at 1:20pm · Like
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David Deavel Not this moment, Matthew. But I'm always on the qui vive, so I'll let you know!
October 10 at 1:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia listening to people talking about women's dress code is almost as creepy as Chesterton
October 10 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg We were talking about men.
October 10 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Are people talking about it at your "work" Michael Beitia?
October 10 at 1:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF-- Not once I got my hands on him, if you'l recall.
October 10 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman As Matthew indicated, and I said explicitly, there is nothing wrong with dress codes, per se, they just need to be handled more prudently than they are.
October 10 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Were any TAC alum around when Ben, Master of the Universe came to campus?
October 10 at 1:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, Daniel, I'm reflecting back to earlier points made about women's dress code, and the fact that Chesterton is hella creepy when he talks about women
October 10 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Let's everyone attack Chesterton now.
October 10 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia let's!
October 10 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I was there when the stretching complaint was made. Interesting that women had to be chided when nothing was said about the behavior of the men. And don't get me started on the sleeveless part of the dress code...because apparently men get aroused at the sight of an elbow.
October 10 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg What's this about the sleeveless part of the dress code?
October 10 at 1:31pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's a lie.
October 10 at 1:32pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman I still like G.K. Chesterton.
October 10 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Scott: quit getting so huffy, I was being facetious.
October 10 at 1:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I dig elbows.
October 10 at 1:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So you were being like a bestiary.
October 10 at 1:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I dig with shovels
October 10 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Without elbows, arms would be straight.
October 10 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird Good to know, Daniel...lol
October 10 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I sing of warfare, and a man of elbows.
October 10 at 1:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia without elbows I would spill beer all over myself
October 10 at 1:35pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti If you think women stretching before a workout is something to be worried about, you are what my Grandma Gigliotti would have called "a real jerk."
October 10 at 1:35pm · Like · 5
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Scott Weinberg Elbows are usefull in soccer.
October 10 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Is that an old Italian expression?
October 10 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg God gave us elbows so we could dribble through defenders.
October 10 at 1:36pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Daniel, nice cherry picking. What are the 4 species of modesty according to Aquinas? [And I was wrong too.]
October 10 at 1:37pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Elbows are like the middle of a syllogism.
October 10 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman John Ruplinger, here we are speaking only of dress, no?
October 10 at 1:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...and I don't cherry pick. I just speak formally, and only make distinctions when I must. It is a fault of mine.
October 10 at 1:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And I am serious that it is a fault.
October 10 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm curious about Ben, master of the universe
October 10 at 1:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe sounds like a fun dude
October 10 at 1:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what are we talking about now? I'm as lost as a Christendom grad at a theology conference....
October 10 at 1:41pm · Unlike · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Help me convince 13-18 year olds that The Illiad is a great book!
October 10 at 1:41pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg If you cherry pick from Trent, the elbows of your syllogism are immodest.
October 10 at 1:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Lauren, you're here! Tell me why I shouldn't change my profile picture so much!
October 10 at 1:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hmm. Has Scott been taken over by Scrott Whineberg?
October 10 at 1:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym-pnrpdJEQ
October 10 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I was speaking more generally (Cf Q 160 & 161). And Aquinas qualifies the Augustine quote you cited.
October 10 at 1:43pm · Edited · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick it confuses me Samantha. Help me convince Homeschooled 13-18 year olds that if they don't like the ILliad they should give it more chances and that it is a great book because of what it is... haha
October 10 at 1:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tell them to skip the list of ships.
October 10 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick well most of them skipped the whole thing at this point
October 10 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I Remember When the Braden family adopted Waldstien family attire... I'm sorry pater Pater Edmund, but Cowboys dressed as alpine yodelers is a true expression of freedom of dress
October 10 at 1:44pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh. Sorry.
October 10 at 1:45pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It sounds like it might be too late to focus on the quarrel between Agamemnon and Achilles. But if not, get them to consider when they have been wronged by someone in authority who doesn't know what he is doing.
October 10 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I can't see the posts of several Weinberg imposters. It just shows you how depraved TACers have become. The college was a lot better in the 80s. The quality of student has declined so much, and there's nothing in the college, per se, to keep it anchored.
October 10 at 1:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dr. Spaceman Bond--I found that a pretty tough sell as a freshman. So, this slave that I stole from this town I razed to the ground has been taken from me. Would I be mad? Hard to say.
October 10 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Achilles isn't the most relatable guy, is what I'm saying.
October 10 at 1:49pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, they're just poking fun at you. I hardly think that's a sign of depravity.
October 10 at 1:49pm · Like
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John Ashman The Church needs to be more modest first.
October 10 at 1:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I do not know what you were taught growing up, but I think "poking fun" of someone behind their back falls into depravity.
October 10 at 1:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, you've told people to "go to hell" on this thread. No moral high ground for you.
October 10 at 1:53pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia TAC hit its high point in the year 2000
October 10 at 1:54pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, when I told Edward Langley to go to hell I did so to his face, not behind his back, and my statement was moral.
October 10 at 1:54pm · Like
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John Ashman tNET is the Kansas of moral high ground.
October 10 at 1:54pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I understand your point, Samantha. I have to get to class, but I would be glad to trade thoughts on this later. But if you can't get them to identify with Achilles, there is no hope. If you can get them to identify with him, then you next have to get them to recognize the psychological motivations of Achilles refusing to accept Agamemnon's apology. And the rest is down hill from there!
October 10 at 1:55pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg And Samantha, you are hardly an expert on faith and morals, if you know what I mean.
October 10 at 1:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah, Scott has learned to distinguish!
"It is wrong when other people do it, it is okay when I do" - quoth the Perescott
October 10 at 1:56pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ashman Oh boy.
October 10 at 1:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I didn't say *that*, MB.
October 10 at 1:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia that's what you meant
October 10 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg no, really, not so.
October 10 at 1:57pm · Like
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John Ashman Condemning someone to an eternity of torture is a special kind of high ground.
October 10 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia really? how many times have you brought me up behind my back cough cough *hypocrite*
October 10 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I did not condemn Ed Langley to an eternity of torture.
October 10 at 1:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg not once, MB, not once.
October 10 at 1:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg you hypocrite.
October 10 at 1:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia J'accuse
See Translation
October 10 at 1:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, Scott, I don't know what you mean.
October 10 at 1:59pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg You're just a fantastical, hypocritical beast from a modern beitiary.
October 10 at 1:59pm · Like
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Michael Beitia how am I a hypocrite? I talk trash all the time, morning, noon, night, in front, behind, around the corner, above, below
October 10 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg See above.
October 10 at 2:00pm · Like
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John Ashman "Go to hell". Seems like some sort of "I hope you die and are sent to a place of eternal damnation and agony" wish, but I might be misreading somehow.
October 10 at 2:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I just can't believe, +30k later, that you all *still* get into it like this. Just leave Scott be and let him say whatever. Poke the troll in the eye or feed him and you awaken the beast within.
October 10 at 2:00pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I mean you do not assent to infallible Catholic teaching on morals and faith. So you are not a credible source for lessons about morals.
October 10 at 2:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Gosh, thanks for spelling that out, Scott. So helpful.
October 10 at 2:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No problem.
October 10 at 2:03pm · Like
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John Ashman I don't find anyone who believes in infallibility of humans to be credible.
October 10 at 2:03pm · Like
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Joel HF Who is this Ben, Master of the universe fellow? Also, what was the Book of Leo?
October 10 at 2:03pm · Unlike · 4
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Adrw Lng Is it me, but as the eternal return spirals on, do the circles get closer? Seems we were just here. What happens in the distance when we hit point zero?
October 10 at 2:03pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Posted without comment: http://www.mayoclinic.org/.../basics/definition/con-20025568
Narcissistic personality disorder Definition - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic
Narcissistic personality disorder — Comprehensive...
MAYOCLINIC.ORG
October 10 at 2:03pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg "Go to hell, John Ashman" does not signify "I hope you die and are sent to a place of eternal damnation and agony."
October 10 at 2:04pm · Like
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John Ashman What does it literally mean, exactly?
October 10 at 2:04pm · Like
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John Ashman Is hell a place I can visit for a nice vacation? Can I arrive alive?
October 10 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg "Go to hell" literally means suffer and repent for your idiocy.
October 10 at 2:05pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Scott, I though you were a poet.
October 10 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I would think that might be better said as "go to confession"
October 10 at 2:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You need a remedial lesson on what "literally" means
October 10 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Peterson: You could continue to encourage people to ignore him. Or...you could just take care of the problem, once and for all. Eh?
October 10 at 2:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hush Catherine Joliat Feil!
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe tNET can hear you!
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Aaron, narcissists have a deep need for admiration. So... that's not me.
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ashman Stop using big words Samantha!
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ashman Clearly not.
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe Do you seriously think he's adding something to the conversation?!
October 10 at 2:06pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, I thought you mean that Matthew J. Peterson should delete tNET again
October 10 at 2:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Samantha, I know how to make a metaphor.
October 10 at 2:07pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Those of us who only have time to duck in here and there would prefer not to have to scroll through 450 posts of his BS!
October 10 at 2:07pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Matthew J. Peterson, these people are hilarious.
October 10 at 2:08pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Scott, I'm interested in your expertise in metaphors. Let's go with that. Why do you think you fell the need to make metaphors?
October 10 at 2:08pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg fell the need?
October 10 at 2:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The thing is, Scott, "Go to hell" has a literal meaning. You might plausibly claim you did not mean it literally, but you cannot claim the literal meaning is something other than the obvious, literal meaning
October 10 at 2:08pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman Wow, weird. I just had a genuine flashback of when Scott and I had this very convesation because he told me or someone else, perhaps Beitia to 'go to hell'.
October 10 at 2:08pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil And yes, Samantha, I may have been unclear. Matthew J. Peterson, no need to delete the thread. Just unfriend the boil on its proverbial backside.
October 10 at 2:09pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman i mean, I can see how a non-Christian would use it as a figure of speech, but my wife? That's like practically summoning the devil.
October 10 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going to go read Lila now. Later nerds.
October 10 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng scoot, what kin of metaphor do sing-language gorillas?
October 10 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti You also seemed concerned with the mistakes of others. Why is that. Do you want to call attention to your own perfection? Tell me more. Do my mistakes interest you? Do they bother you? We're making good progress today.
October 10 at 2:10pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg To say I am a boil is a metaphor, Samatha. It is not literal.
October 10 at 2:10pm · Like
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John Ashman The medical tests are still out, however.
October 10 at 2:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TROLL FIGHT!
October 10 at 2:11pm · Like · 7
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Scott Weinberg Aaron, I was just wondering what you meant by fell the need.
October 10 at 2:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^liar^
October 10 at 2:12pm · Like
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John Ashman Scott doesn't know how to speak or read literal.
October 10 at 2:12pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I see, Scott. It was a typo. How do you feel about that? Does that make you feel better?
October 10 at 2:12pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg That's good. I'm okay with that.
October 10 at 2:13pm · Like
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John Ashman Scott fell literal with his mighty metaphor.
October 10 at 2:13pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Great! Do you want to talk more about why you don't feel a need for admiration? Let's follow that thread. Do you feel hat you aren't "admired?"
October 10 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I don't fell a need to make metaphors. I jst do.
October 10 at 2:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Adrw: you have not please to understood enthymemetic metaphor with insofar as progress has been made
October 10 at 2:14pm · Unlike · 6
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Scott Weinberg Persuasive metaphor is easier to say.
October 10 at 2:15pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, but if you would like to talk about that, Aaron, go ahead.
October 10 at 2:16pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I'm sorry, Scott. Our time is up. Let's pick this up during your next session.
October 10 at 2:16pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg OK. How much do I owe you?
October 10 at 2:16pm · Like
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John Ashman Walk tall and carry a persuasive metaphor.
October 10 at 2:17pm · Like
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Adrw Lng The only there apey we can attest is the flagrace of tel fel
October 10 at 2:18pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia have yoo not understanding beasts in bookish theosophany?
October 10 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman May I mamoo dogface to the banana patch?
October 10 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what the hell are you talking about, Ashman?
October 10 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger What is the virtue of modesty insofar as it can be exercised on FB? (esp. in its species of humility, studiousness and moderation of words?) Daniel Lendman?
October 10 at 2:23pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Oh, sorry, I thought we were speaking gibberish.....
October 10 at 2:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Greg Benedict: this thread needs an official shrink. Thank you. Please?
October 10 at 2:21pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng One thing this thread will not do: shrink.
October 10 at 2:21pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Therapy may help us "grow," however.
October 10 at 2:23pm · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau It is beyond help I believe
October 10 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Michael, you just said what the hell.
October 10 at 2:25pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Buried deep we have a bunch of personality tests and an incomplete discussion of Jung.
October 10 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Like the darting Swallow tossed in flight,
An undeserved curse will not alight.
October 10 at 2:26pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Do people change based on logic and reason?
October 10 at 2:28pm · Like
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Adrw Lng https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbdMMI6ty0o...
Why Are We Morbidly Curious?
My twitter: http://www.twitter.com/tweetsauce My Instagram: http://instagram.com/electricpantsTHE...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 10 at 2:30pm · Like
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Joel HF Gabriel Sanchez--if you want to discuss pro-rasslin' and the work of Harry Jaffa in one place, may I suggest this thread?
October 10 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman tNET is totally a pile of Jung.
October 10 at 2:37pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman No. People change their mind when they are confronted with a daily dose of emotional pain because the masses around them ridicule their beliefs. Logic has little to no bearing on it.
October 10 at 2:49pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes TNET goes places I cannot follow.
October 10 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Umm, Scott.....is that a laden or unladen swallow?
October 10 at 2:49pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg A European swallow.
October 10 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff, it depends what you mean by change. An act of reason leads us to knew knowledge, which is a change.
October 10 at 2:50pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But in terms of what we do, this is governed by what we believe in. A belief in certain things governs our actions.
October 10 at 2:54pm · Like
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John Ashman The reward of changing opinion must be higher than the cost of changing it. This is rarely the case. People throw good after bad in order to keep their investment.
October 10 at 2:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Belief can be very strong. Sometimes it is reinforced by habit, instead of reasonability.
October 10 at 2:56pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman Or the illusion of infallibility.
October 10 at 2:56pm · Like
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Brian Kemple If Jaffa were a pro wrestler, what would be his stage name?
October 10 at 2:56pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg Or the obstinant denial of truth.
October 10 at 2:56pm · Like
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John Ashman Truth was never meant to be perfect.
October 10 at 2:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The false illusion of infallibility is very dangerous.
October 10 at 2:57pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg But a true understanding of what the Church teaches is water in the desert.
October 10 at 2:58pm · Like
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John Ashman As opposed to True Infallibility™
October 10 at 2:58pm · Like
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John Ashman A true understanding would have us stoning gay people or something to that effect.
October 10 at 2:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Nope. As opposed to what the Church truly teaches.
October 10 at 2:59pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg How so?
October 10 at 2:59pm · Like
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John Ashman http://rationalwiki.org/.../Actions_punishable_by_death...
Actions punishable by death in the Old Testament - RationalWiki
The Christian Old Testament (Tanakh for all Jewish...
RATIONALWIKI.ORG
October 10 at 3:01pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That was over 2,000 years ago. I meant today.
October 10 at 3:01pm · Like
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John Ashman Whoa, what? Is there truth or not truth? I didn't know truth changed to fit society.
October 10 at 3:02pm · Like
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John Ashman The Bible is etenal and infallible.
October 10 at 3:02pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Nope, the Church's interpretation of the Bible is what is infallible.
October 10 at 3:03pm · Like
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John Ashman Except for that Mormon nonsense.
October 10 at 3:03pm · Like
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John Ashman So, it was infallible then, and infallible now, and since that it different, both are infallible, so.....that means "the truth is what we say it is"
October 10 at 3:03pm · Like
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John Ashman I think you're not up to this true believer stuff, Scott. Your mojo is weak.
October 10 at 3:04pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Thanks.
October 10 at 3:04pm · Like
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John Ashman If you're not willing to stone a gay person or adulterer, I question your belief in God.
October 10 at 3:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia TROLL FIGHT!!!
October 10 at 3:05pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg Can we brick someone to death, or do we need to stone them?
October 10 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia well, sometimes sunlight shines in and then the trolls are "stone"
October 10 at 3:07pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Burning or stoning. There is to be no bricking.
October 10 at 3:07pm · Like
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John Ashman God made stones plentiful. He didn't make bricks.
October 10 at 3:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Can we brick anyone, besides Latvians?
October 10 at 3:10pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman You can wipe out a town if more than 50% of them are not Christian or Jewish. Even the Jews and Catholics that live there.
October 10 at 3:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Do we have to wipe them? Can we hose them off instead?
October 10 at 3:22pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman You might be able to brick then because stones could run out. I think it's a "by any means necessary" thing.
October 10 at 3:11pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That's a slippery slope.
October 10 at 3:11pm · Like
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John Ashman Not if they have ebola.
October 10 at 3:12pm · Like
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John Ashman Then God has already taken control of who's getting killed at that point.
October 10 at 3:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you saying Ebola is like God stoning?
October 10 at 3:13pm · Like
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John Ashman Got is into plagues and floods mostly. He gave us stones and fire.
October 10 at 3:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg So when people die in natural disasters, God is killing them?
October 10 at 3:14pm · Like
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John Ashman I thought this was accepted universally as truth. God called them home.
October 10 at 3:19pm · Like
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John Ashman God has his reasons for letting planes fall out of the sky.
October 10 at 3:20pm · Like
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John Ashman For one thing, you didn't pray enough to keep it aloft.
October 10 at 3:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Shut up guys. You're ruining tNET.
October 10 at 3:20pm · Like · 9
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John Ashman Also, homosexuality creates a lot of natural disasters.
October 10 at 3:20pm · Like
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John Ashman Bring your A game Samantha, pick the topic.
October 10 at 3:21pm · Like
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John Ashman Not a fan.
October 10 at 3:22pm · Like
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John Ashman I'm just waiting for someone to say "It sounds RIDICULOUS when YOU say it"
October 10 at 3:23pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Could we talk about the bestiary?
October 10 at 3:26pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman As you wish. I know the animals are near and dear to you.
October 10 at 3:26pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Saint John Chrysostom said we should be gentle with animals because we share the same Creator.
October 10 at 3:27pm · Like
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John Ashman Except bears. And sharks.
October 10 at 3:28pm · Like
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John Ashman Pretty sure God created mauling to get that point across.
October 10 at 3:29pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg He said that a wild bear will rarely harm a person; but a bad person will readily harm another person; so consider the bee, which labors long hours never for itself but always in service of others.
October 10 at 3:30pm · Like
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John Ashman I would rather consider the lilies.
October 10 at 3:31pm · Like
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Joel HF Unfriend these idiotic morons.
October 10 at 3:31pm · Like · 5
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Adrw Lng When I wonder why / What's never been's never been so / We would lie when we say 'Yes, you know we all love you' / What's never been's never been so / Hell, we're nowhere now.
October 10 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Very Christian of you Joel.
October 10 at 3:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. (2 Kings 2: 23-25)
The Bear can be a rough and tumble beast,
Who doesn’t care for manners, in the least.
Practice kindness, and embrace restraint,
And never mock a prophet or a saint!
October 10 at 3:32pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Consider now, the Lilies of the Field,
More fair than Solomon in all his yield.
But who is she, clothed brightly as the sun?
Our hope, when this world’s sojourning is done!
October 10 at 3:33pm · Like
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John Ashman Also, remember, you can be an idiot OR a moron, but you can't be both. That would be imbecilic.
October 10 at 3:33pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
October 10 at 3:34pm · Like
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John Ashman Who would Jesus unfriend?
October 10 at 3:35pm · Like
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Max Summe We can't start picking and choosing which trolls to allow on tNET, can we?
October 10 at 3:39pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I've done my duty to pull tNET along: flood and ignore is the way to go, Isak, Samantha, Joel, Edward...... someone ?
October 10 at 3:40pm · Unlike · 3
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Adrw Lng Hey Max, so is Amazon evil? I'm reading the article you posted.
October 10 at 3:41pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Adrw Lng - I don't know!!! they love their customers but seem to not care about the workers producing the things the customers buy.
It's so easy to hate the companies that despise their customers.
October 10 at 3:42pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Roses fall from heaven in a shower,
Because Our Lady loves the Little Flower;
And so our true devotion presupposes,
Sending forth this shower of heavenly roses.
October 10 at 3:43pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg
October 10 at 3:43pm · Like
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Max Summe The one truly disturbing thing is that Bezos thinks what he's doing is inevitable. There's a future historical certainty that is really troubling. You see it a lot in modern politics too. As if we are all just caught in a tide of progress and there's nothing that can be done for the poor humans who don't have a raft.
October 10 at 3:44pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I like Amazon's service. But isn't this similar to a lot of companies that care about customers not the people who produce for them (ahem.... Apple....)
October 10 at 3:45pm · Unlike · 1
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Adrw Lng Bezos reminds me of Ford
October 10 at 3:45pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry Michael, I've got friends who live in Shaw coming to stay the weekend and Lila to read. I'll be out this weekend.
October 10 at 3:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm ten minutes from exiting "work" anyhow.
October 10 at 3:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Crazy, though, right? Refugees from one neighborhood over.
October 10 at 3:46pm · Like
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Max Summe Yeah Michael Beitia - this is similar to a lot of companies.
At some point in the future, production won't require very much labor by humans, and then I wonder what our economy will look like, if our society doesn't collapse from the upheaval.
October 10 at 3:47pm · Like
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Max Summe Or you know... skynet.
October 10 at 3:47pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia IDK, the reason why the iPhone is hand assembled is because they can't efficiently automate it. it isn't "much" labor, just mindless and repetitive labor.
October 10 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but human nonetheless
October 10 at 3:48pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Kind of like Euclid.
October 10 at 3:48pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Edna St. Vincent Millay >>>> Alexander Pope
October 10 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Amazon Prime paid for itself about a dozen times over. Free 2 day shipping? Yes, thank you.
October 10 at 4:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is my chance to pass Samantha!
October 10 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ruplinger So about 169 a. 1, that is mostly about ostentation, no (i.e. not about shameless dress)?
October 10 at 4:31pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger and Augustine is quoted and qualifies that quote (you quoted, DANIEL) in the reply to objection 2 I believe (wherein he is again quoted).
October 10 at 4:28pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman John, I don't see anything that contradicts my claim.
October 10 at 4:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman "outward apparel should be consistent with the estate of the person, according to the general custom."
October 10 at 4:33pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I didn't disagree with Daniel Lendman over weird victorian/capes/jumper dress being immodest (I quite agree on that point). Though the community context at TAC may be taken, as opposed to say going to Ventura in such garb (iow at a school that accepts and barely notices such eccentricity, maybe it is not immodest....in that context)
I disagreed with him about absolute principles of modesty. And I quoted Ven. Pius XII who also disagreed with Lendman, though both the my pal the Pope and I would concede that determining those exact lines between what custom dictates in modesty and what is absolute is a tricky proposition. So it would be a bit much to insist that the details in the dress code pushed by the Vatican under Benedict XV and Pius XI should be adhered to in specifica ("a dress cannot be called modest that drops down more than two fingers below the neck")
I still think the distinction between indecent and less becoming is a thing. Where indecent is what is not allowable absolutely, and less becoming versus more becoming is a matter of time, place, state and custom.
As an example of absolutes...the Church condemned "brevíssimae bracae femíneae" (hot pants) and bikinis as always unacceptable.
October 10 at 4:35pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger "exceed the bounds observed by good men" and . . . .
October 10 at 4:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I still have issues with the absolute claims, because such things seem impossibly difficult to define and determine.
October 10 at 4:39pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's another good thesis topic: "CONSIDER THE SOURCE: why going to the Church for a definition of a virtue makes more sense than going to Augustine"
CCC 2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.
October 10 at 4:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz WRT to my Jews don't believe in God....leaving aside that many, even rabbis, are agnostics, pantheists, or even atheists (Jewish theology, sects, identity, is all mixed up), the passage from Aquinas that denies both speculative and affective knowledge is a commentary on this passage in John 17:25, the world does not know thee. But Christ also says if you deny Him, you deny the Father. And He tells the Jews that they do not believe in the Father, since they don't believe in Him.
October 10 at 4:45pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "although such a custom is not to be commended" (response in article 2). Moreover, women should not dress like harlots, no?
October 10 at 4:46pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's another good thesis topic: "MY DOGMA JUST RAN OVER MY EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE: Why learning the first principles of sacred theology are more important than learning the first principles of geometry."
October 10 at 4:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That doesn't mean there aren't absolutes. A bikini is immodest (and you know what I mean by bikini). A monokini all the more so! How short can a skirt be before even custom cannot allow it? That I grant you is hard.
Pius XII was clear both on the existence of absolutes and that they were hard to define!
October 10 at 4:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Here is another great thesis topic:
ERRORS IN JUDGMENT or
Why the Catechism of the Catholic Church, though a good beginning, is insufficient for determining Church Positions on All Doctrinal Matters.
October 10 at 4:48pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sub title might be too long, though.
October 10 at 4:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ruplinger, is such a custom is not to be commended, yet can render it not immodest, that would indicate (to me) that such a practice is not absolutely immodest, but would be what I have been trying to throw into the mix, "less becoming" And perhaps less becoming to the degree that it is justified to lament said custom where it exists.
October 10 at 4:48pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger But I was more interested in the other species of modesty anyway.
October 10 at 4:49pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Exemplum of Lendman's thesis: Predestination
October 10 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Too long, and too false.
October 10 at 4:52pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Even the one mention of it is misleading (the footnotes clear it up, but seem to contradict the English phrasing at first glance)
October 10 at 4:50pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe So is Amazon evil for free 2-day shipping Monokinis? (just tying this all back together...)
October 10 at 4:50pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz They are at least materially cooperating (assuming the seller is just using the Amazon marketplace), but formally cooperating if they are the seller
October 10 at 4:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger a custom not to be commended is sinful in itself but the custom mitigates guilt or removes it, Joshua (read headcovering).
October 10 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Scott, for your edification:
The Catechism is part of the Church's official teaching in the sense that it was SUGGESTED by a Synod of Bishops, requested by the Holy Father, prepared and revised by bishops and promulgated by the Holy Father as part of his ORDINARY Magisterium.
...It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms.
October 10 at 4:53pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman USCCB is so helpful:
://www.usccb.org/.../frequently-asked-questions-about-the...
Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the...
USCCB.ORG
October 10 at 4:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The term the USCCB uses when defining a major catechism is that it is a "point of reference."
October 10 at 4:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Daniel, FYE, the Magisterium, when speaking on faith and morals, is always infallible.
October 10 at 4:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Also FYE, the USCCB did not write the CCC. The Vatican did.
October 10 at 4:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg When discussing theology and the catechism of the Magisterium, it would probably be helpful if TAC students had studied it, to begin with.
October 10 at 4:56pm · Like
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Max Summe Daniel Lendman - what Scott is trying to say is that he quoted directly from the Deposit of Faith and you, because you are from TAC, cannot understand that Augustine's writing is only part of that Deposit insofar as the Church has decided to include it.
October 10 at 4:57pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Ratzinger said very clearly that the authority of any teaching in the CCC is the authority it had before the CCC, no more or less
There are even parts that are, quite frankly, opinion. It is hard to avoid. The same thing can be said of the Roman Catechism, and you can see it clearly in texts that are contradictory between the two (such as on holy orders)
October 10 at 4:57pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger But dressing worse than a harlot is maybe not advisable. And Aquinas indicates that men are bound by the same. Banana peels are not modest garb.
October 10 at 4:57pm · Like
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Max Summe I understand now... Deposit of Faith = Catechism.
October 10 at 4:57pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I just cut and pasted from the Catechism.
October 10 at 4:57pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman 1. No, Scott. Ordinary magisterial teachings are not infallible. Even with regard to faith and morals.
2. We are bound by filial piety to follow the teachings of our bishops as though Christ's unless we have compelling reason not to.
October 10 at 4:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes they are Daniel.
October 10 at 4:58pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ruplinger, your interpretation is strained. Very clearly Aquinas is nodding to the role of custom in determining what is modest. Custom itself affects what is modest itself. Something may not be preferable without being sinful.
October 10 at 4:58pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg And we are bound to follow them and to give our assent to them.
October 10 at 4:58pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No Max, the Catechism is a reflection of the Deposit. Otherwise you would be able to find an error in it.
October 10 at 5:00pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg The Deposit is the beginning of sacred theology.
October 10 at 5:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz "This does not mean that the catechism is a sort of super-dogma, as its opponents would like to insinuate in order to cast suspicion on its as a danger to the liberty of theology. What significance the Catechism really holds for the common exercise of teaching in the Church may be learned by reading the Apostolic Constitution Fidei depositum, with which the Pope promulgated it on October 11, 1992–exactly thirty years after the opening of the Second Vatican Council: "I acknowledge it [the Catechism] as a valid and legitimate tool in the service of ecclesiastical communion, as a sure norm for instruction in the faith." The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole. Since it transmits what the Church teaches, whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Church" (Cardinal Ratzinger, Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pg 26-27)
October 10 at 5:01pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Can Scott see this?^
October 10 at 5:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Just in case: "This does not mean that the catechism is a sort of super-dogma, as its opponents would like to insinuate in order to cast suspicion on its as a danger to the liberty of theology. What significance the Catechism really holds for the common exercise of teaching in the Church may be learned by reading the Apostolic Constitution Fidei depositum, with which the Pope promulgated it on October 11, 1992–exactly thirty years after the opening of the Second Vatican Council: "I acknowledge it [the Catechism] as a valid and legitimate tool in the service of ecclesiastical communion, as a sure norm for instruction in the faith." The individual doctrines which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole. Since it transmits what the Church teaches, whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Church" (Cardinal Ratzinger, Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pg 26-27)
October 10 at 5:03pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman One of the professors here at the ITI helped write the catechism. She is always talking about how poorly worded parts of it are, and misleading in other parts.
October 10 at 5:04pm · Unlike · 1
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Scott Weinberg Wow, Daniel, thanks for that source.
October 10 at 5:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger No, Joshua, I don't think so. The example of headcovering is of bad custom. He seems to say that dressing like a harlot is always bad. That is clear especially in article 2.
October 10 at 5:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger AND what he is mostly addressing is OSTENTATIOUSNESS of dress.
October 10 at 5:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's another great thesis: "CAPTAIN OBVIOUS: Why the infallible Magisterium is more accurate than all the other books they read at TAC."
October 10 at 5:07pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg "OSTENTATIOUSNESS of dress" is something TAC guys should complain about in private.
October 10 at 5:09pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Here is another good one:
PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE THESIS TITLES AS A MEANS FOR COPING WITH ERROR
October 10 at 5:09pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman By the way, John did not go to TAC.
October 10 at 5:10pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here's another good one: "ANALOGY OF INVERSE PROPORTIONALITY; OR, Why you have to keep trying to prove you're right, when you deny things like the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium."
October 10 at 5:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I remember 32,000 comments ago, or so, when John thought 'we' were treating a one "Peregrine" unfairly. He thought it reflected poorly on TAC at the time.
October 10 at 5:12pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman So, can you distinguish between the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium, Scott?
October 10 at 5:12pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Yes.
October 10 at 5:13pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Most sane people agree it is unfair for three dozen TAC alum to attack one person.
October 10 at 5:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Aquinas on modesty isn't focused on shameless dress. It's very informative and thought provoking. But I am more interested in the other species of modesty beginning at question 161.
October 10 at 5:13pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I've actually blocked Scooter, and yet I can tell what he's saying from the responses. And for the fact that he's probably posted about 3000 comments prior saying more or less the same thing.
October 10 at 5:14pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe What's interesting to me is that Scott says he knows the teaching of the Church, but argued for heretical positions that were condemned by the Church some 20,000 comments ago. He even assented to the very language used in those condemnations.
And yet he wants to tell everyone else what the Church teaches....
October 10 at 5:15pm · Unlike · 4
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Scott Weinberg I actually think the Catechism expresses the whole thing more eloquently that Aquinas. They even use a metaphor.
October 10 at 5:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecumenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecumenical councils and the pope.And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecumenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecumenical councils and the pope.
October 10 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility
In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith an…
NEWADVENT.ORG
October 10 at 5:16pm · Like
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Max Summe Oh wait - sorry, that's not actually interesting. It's just more of the same invincible ignorance we've come to expect from Scott.
October 10 at 5:16pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg I'm glad you find that interesting Max. I don't think I ever said I know the teaching of the Church. I do know I studied it though. Sorry you are so mad at me. God bless.
October 10 at 5:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman This is not Max as mad.
October 10 at 5:17pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have seen Max mad.
October 10 at 5:17pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I have even seen Max facebook mad.
October 10 at 5:17pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe ^hahahaha
October 10 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz No Scott cannot see my comments
October 10 at 5:18pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg You're right, Max, I did not think that was that interesting either. Thanks for the clarification. Invincible ignorance is an effect of when you do not study something. For example, like when TAC does not study Dogma.
October 10 at 5:18pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am sorry that you felt like you were ganged up on, Scott.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Max, cool off. Jump in a fountain.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But you do kind of invite that kind of response,
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like
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Max Summe Here Scott, I'll take your side for a while so you don't feel so picked on.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Thanks. I think a lot of people felt like that too.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like
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Max Summe Look Daniel, the teaching of the Church is infallible.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Please don't Max.
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like
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Max Summe so why don't you back off the Catechism and just realize you never read it at TAC!
October 10 at 5:19pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg WARNING: MAX IS NOT REPRESENTING MY POSITION.
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe You know what else? You're not a real Catholic, and you're arrogant.
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe (See Scott, now you've got someone on your side)
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Me?
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We had a CCC study group at TAC when I was there
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg NOTICE TO MAX: see above.
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like
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Max Summe Well you can't be so picky about allies when you can't make friends, Scott.
October 10 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe You really should accept the help.
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg I have 180 fb friends Max. And even more real ones. How many do you have, Mr. Man?
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like
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Max Summe Anyway - back to helping Scott. I got your back bro.
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg Thanks anyway Max. Not today.
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg No, please, no...
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like
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Max Summe No seriously, I can't let you feel victimized here. You need someone on your side.
October 10 at 5:21pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg OK, let's switch. I'll be you.
October 10 at 5:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like your last point about the belief of Jews, Joshua.
October 10 at 5:22pm · Like
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Max Summe You can't be picked on by 4 dozen TAC grads... it's just not a fair fight. You could maybe take 3 dozen tops with your giant brain.
October 10 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Scott Weinberg OK, I'll be you Max...
October 10 at 5:22pm · Like
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Max Summe Look if you don't want the help, fine. but don't complain that you're on your own.....
October 10 at 5:24pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I think this is the next president of the United States:
http://time.com/3490123/rand-paul-ferguson/
Rand Paul Visits Ferguson Ahead of Fresh Protests
Paul is the first potential 2016 contender to visit the city
TIME.COM
October 10 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Precisely because of this kind of act.
October 10 at 5:24pm · Like
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Max Summe I would be okay with that Daniel Lendman. Rand Paul's too libertarian, but I think that's the medicine we need right now.
October 10 at 5:24pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman With that, goodnight, TNET.
October 10 at 5:24pm · Like
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Max Summe Gute Nacht!
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Now, Augustine (I'm you here Max)... Augustine is a Doctor of the Church. This is what the Church teaches. The Church also says Thomas is the Angelic Doctor. The Church says "Read Thomas." So let's throw out Dogma, and start a college, and read just Thomas, because this is what the Church is telling us to do, infallibly.
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like
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Max Summe Auf wiedersehen!
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg Buenos Nachos.
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like
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Max Summe Scott, I think my impression of you is better than your impression of me.... no offense, but maybe impressions aren't your thing.
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like · 3
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Scott Weinberg I'll give you that.
October 10 at 5:25pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I think Aquinas sets forth all one needs for prudence to judge aright. It is interesting that (especially for women and its drab for men) we have neither fashion (ever changing) nor custom. As to the other three species of modesty, they seem long buried. And it is strange they all have the same genus.
October 10 at 6:05pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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John Ruplinger Interesting that Pius marks out pride and curiousity as the root sins of modernism. How are humility, studiousness, moderation in speech and action, and modesty (inostentatiousness) in dress all one thing?
October 10 at 6:12pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia would dressing in head to toe covering, a la "Little House on the Prairie" then be immodest for drawing attention to oneself, falling under the heading "ostentatious"?
October 10 at 6:17pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill John your inquisitiveness betrays your modernism!!!!
You are too prideful to think that you should know.
October 10 at 6:17pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yes.
October 10 at 6:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Aquinas points that underdressing can be ostentatious. The ostentation of Diogenes.
October 10 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Aquinas has ten questions on modesty and we focus on a part only of the last article. Obssessed with hem lengths and cleavage.
October 10 at 6:41pm · Like
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Max Summe "Obsessed with hem lengths and cleavage" - the modern West.
October 10 at 6:44pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz I don't disagree
October 10 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger He begins with the most internal aspect and ends with the most external. We however can't hardly begin or so it seems. And we go about it backwards, no?
October 10 at 6:46pm · Like
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Max Summe ARe those articles online somewhere?
October 10 at 6:47pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The Summa is online
October 10 at 6:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Ruplinger, have you listened to Fr. Ripperger's sermons (on sensus traditionis) on modesty? He has a real good section on decorum and exterior dress and the principle that the cultural custom "binds generally", which is why, say, being "Catholic Amish" is immodest (he also gives a very good, for traditionalist circles, examination of the issue of women wearing pants... noting the role of custom there)
October 10 at 6:50pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe I know I'm online Kenz I'm right here....
October 10 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple http://www.corpusthomisticum.org - complete oeuvre in Latin.
http://www.dhspriory.org/thomas/ - about as thorough a collection of English translations as can be found online, many side-by-side with the Latin.
Corpus Thomisticum
CORPUSTHOMISTICUM.ORG|BY ENRIQUE ALARCÓN
October 10 at 6:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Really we should just go back to wearing tunics, and hence get the experience of girding our loins and all that....
October 10 at 6:51pm · Like · 4
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Scott Weinberg I know St. Francis de Sales is not the Magisterium, but consider the Basilisk.
"Frequent not the company of immodest persons; they have poison in their eyes and in their breath, like Basilisks. On the contrary, keep company with the chaste and virtuous; often meditate upon and read holy things; for the word of God is chaste, and makes those also chaste that delight in it."
---St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to a Devout Life, Part Third, Chapter XIII.
October 10 at 6:52pm · Like
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Max Summe A helpful how-to http://www.artofmanliness.com/.../how-to-gird-up-your.../
How to Gird Up Your Loins: An Illustrated Guide
If you've read the Bible, then you've probably come...
ARTOFMANLINESS.COM
October 10 at 6:52pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger cool. But the sound is gone on my computer. I love Fr. Ripperger (an Fr. Wolfe).
October 10 at 6:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Minds in a rut travel along the same path.....or Great minds think alike if you want to feel better about yourself
October 10 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg My tNET friends are as scarce as Dogma in a TAC theology seminar.
October 10 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I used to scandalize people at TAC with encouraging this sermon of his
http://www.sensustraditionis.org/.../Disk5/Smoking.mp3
Smoking
SENSUSTRADITIONIS.ORG
October 10 at 6:54pm · Like · 5
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Jeff Neill Seminars were all literature.
October 10 at 6:55pm · Like
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Scott Weinberg I just got a check from a book distributor. I cannot tell you how thrilled I am to be paid for writing poetry, about the things we all care most about.
http://www.kellerbooks.com/?page=shop%2Fflypage...
The Blessed Book of Beasts - Jonathan Scott
Hot Off The Presses! Large Softcover Book of 221 pages. In this wonderful blessed book, you will learn from the...
KELLERBOOKS.COM
October 10 at 6:56pm · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Jeff I could not get in my building today, and none of the computers were working. Did you have anything to do with that?
October 10 at 6:57pm · Like
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Max Summe The only problem with the health benefits from smoking are... that the health detriments are pretty big too.
October 10 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Can be pretty big...a cigar once in a while, or Swedish snus, presents little risk. 5 packs a day? okay now there is a problem.
October 10 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger e-cigs.
October 10 at 7:04pm · Like
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Max Summe The addictive nature of nicotine kind of makes it a pretty big problem if you smoke cigarettes. If you limit yourself to cigars and pipes and the like, you'll probably be okay.
October 10 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger ^^ This.
October 10 at 7:06pm · Edited · Like
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Max Summe e-cigs are probably the way to go if you just want the nicotine without the other chemicals.....
October 10 at 7:05pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe But I prefer the pain of real smoke if I were to indulge.
October 10 at 7:06pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger e-cigs are very cheap and altogether healthy.
October 10 at 7:08pm · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Are you kidding me?
October 10 at 7:11pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I smoke Nat Shermans...if you are going to smoke cig, do it in style
October 10 at 7:13pm · Like · 6
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Emily Norppa http://xkcd.com/1432/
xkcd: The Sake of Argument
Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor...
XKCD.COM
October 10 at 7:24pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz oh very funny. I originally read that as "ever condemned pants" And was writing a serious response.
Look, why else would the Church both coining a Latin term for hot pants?
October 10 at 7:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Max, are you wearing hot pants right now? The Latin, btw, was "brevíssimae bracae femíneae"
Since the word for shorts is "brevíssimae bracae" We must conclude that the object of condemnation was the femineae part. Consequently, I think you are fine wear hot pants as you are a man.
J/k of course
October 10 at 7:52pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng #lederhosengnosis
October 10 at 8:50pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ^I actually have this book
October 10 at 10:01pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "try to mask the cracks in the facade of St. Peters with layer upon layer of hermeneutic of continuity spackle" Archbold, NCR. Quote of the day, Pater Edmund
October 10 at 10:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Whoa whoa whoa..... No hot pants?!?
Loose fitting clothing is frumpy, I'm anti-frumpy.
Clothing should be tailored and form fitting.
Watching "the sound of music" the clothing worn in the movie would be considered scandalous under these frumpy ideologies expressed above.
October 10 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Oh and public nursing is not a big deal.
October 10 at 11:39pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Tailoring is an art of "right for the type".
That goes for men and women.
Skin tight clothing has its place, especially in sports.
October 11 at 12:03am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger you are no Peregrine, Jeff.
October 11 at 12:08am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am speechless
October 11 at 12:46am · Like
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Sam Rocha http://www.patheos.com/.../2013/01/in-praise-of-cigarettes/
In Praise of Cigarettes
I begin with a generous pinch of finely cut tobacco, cradled inside a creased, rectangular sheet of paper, with a thin...
PATHEOS.COM
October 11 at 1:31am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 11 at 2:23am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Lederhosen are holy.
October 11 at 2:36am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Cuban cigars are likewise holy.
October 11 at 2:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman "Estrangement from God, which constitutes the essence of original sin as of every sin, is not therefore to be regarded as effected by concupiscence or as proceeding from it, but as occurring alongside and above it, as being contemporaneous with it or even prior to it. Hence concupiscence can be considered apart from such estrangement, without any alteration of its nature of dominion."
-Matthais Scheeben.
October 11 at 5:04am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Grading essays this weekend. The students have to choose Homer's Odyssey in response to an old AP prompt:
Many literary works use contrasting places (for example, two countries, two cities, or two houses) to represent opposed forces or ideas that are central to the meaning of the work. Choose a work from the list below that contrasts two such places. Write an essay explaining how the places differ, what each place represents, and how their contrast contributes to the meaning of the work as a whole.
October 11 at 7:24am · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Wtf Scroot?!?
John R,
I am very much against arbitrary clothing rules (finger measures) that get established at institutions. There generally accepted standards for business (jacket no tie), business (jacket + tie), business casual, street cloths, athletic wear and evening wear.
Or you can do military style classifications:
1: Class A (wool formal)
2: Class B (cotton)
3: Class C (athletic)
Everything tailored to fit. No athletic clothing in the dining hall, or buildings.
Weather will determine quantity of clothing worn.
October 11 at 7:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Jeff, your categories don't allow for Lederhosen.
October 11 at 7:34am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Perhaps they should be Class D.
October 11 at 7:34am · Like
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John Ruplinger Why does Aquinas begin the inquiry into modesty with humility?
October 11 at 8:48am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger AP delenda est.
October 11 at 8:28am · Like · 2
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John Ashman Catholicism has gotten fat and old. It is full of cracks and wrinkles. The only thing that keeps it going is that it pretends to be young and skinny. Attitude.
October 11 at 8:42am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed that AP should go the way of Carthage. It is a mindless money making machine. But the AP English Literature test is actually better than most. The creators of that test still think that one can speak about the meaning of the work as a whole. It is of course only a matter of time until they jettison that ol' fashioned Idea, but for now it is still present. As a result, there is no serious tension between teaching literature (as one would without an eye to the test) and getting the students ready for the test.
October 11 at 8:51am · Edited · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I'm not sure I even want to know why tight clothing is under discussion here, but I'm sure there's a Foucault quotation that would be relevant.
October 11 at 8:43am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Jeff is trolling. [I don't know why he is addressing me. I was interested in the question of an objective standard but moreso the other aspects of modesty S.T. 2.2.160-168]
October 11 at 9:47am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Jeffrey, that is a good point but that question like many is imprecise. Have you read Klein's essay "On Precision"? His final comparison is a brilliant irony. I am unable to read imprecise ink blots the same any more.
October 11 at 9:54am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Are you talking about the AP prompt I posted earlier? I'm not following you.
October 11 at 9:59am · Like
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John Ruplinger yes.
October 11 at 10:00am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No, I have not read Klein on precision. Please explain your criticism of the prompt.
October 11 at 10:02am · Like
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John Ruplinger "represent opposed forces or ideas that are central to the meaning".
October 11 at 10:03am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I'm still not following you.
October 11 at 10:04am · Like
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John Ruplinger Just what does this mean?
October 11 at 10:04am · Like
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Michael Beitia are you claiming it is Marxist, John?
October 11 at 10:06am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is meant to be broad enough such that a student can choose from any number of literary works that present conflicting positions as central to the meaning. For example, selfishness vs. genuine love in Twelfth Night; love vs. jealousy in Othello; seeming vs. being in Hamlet; etc.
October 11 at 10:08am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond To be more precise would make the prompt such that it would not apply to many different texts.
October 11 at 10:09am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This is the one place in the exam where the student can choose a text to write about. The other two essay questions give the students a prose passage or a poem. There is no choice there, so the questions are much more precise.
October 11 at 10:10am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So, for the Odyssey, one could contrast any number of conflicting or opposed places: the gods on Olympus vs. the mortals on the earth; or the Cyclopses vs. the Phaeacians; or the home of Menelaus vs. the home of Nestor; or Calypso's island vs. Circle's island.
October 11 at 10:12am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The Cyclopses, one could argue, represent radical individualism (they have no political life), whereas the Phaeacians, ruled by Strong Mind and Virtue, represent a true political community. These are opposed forces or ideas, are they not?
October 11 at 10:14am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Here, for example, is the best opening paragraph from the student essays that I have read so far:
"Homer includes many different islands in the Odyssey, each of which represents some element of the Homeric cosmos. Two of these islands, the island of the Cyclops and the island of the Phaeacians, are in direct contrast to each other, as the island of the Cyclops is presented as being a place without morals, laws, or respect for the gods, and the island of Phaeacia is shown as a place where hospitality, friendship, and respect for divine power are pre-eminent. This contrast between two styles of life contributes to the meaning of the work as a whole, namely, that in order for man to find his proper place in the cosmos, in harmony with nature and subordinate to the gods, he must learn to order his soul like that of the Phaeacians, and to overcome all ways of life associated with Cyclopean barbarism."
A question that can produce a thesis like that is an excellent question in my mind. The imprecision of the question, if that is the right work for it, allows the student to choose an appropriate text and, within that text, two contrasting ideas that point to the meaning of the work as a whole.
October 11 at 10:28am · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Are they "forces" or "ideas"?
October 11 at 10:29am · Like
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John Ruplinger The question could be written just as openly without the use of these fuzzy terms (that can cause perplexity).
October 11 at 10:32am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond It is up to the student to formulate an answer based on either. One could, for example, if writing about Jack London's "To Build of Fire," talk about the "force" of nature vs. the "force" in man that seeks to survive. It is up to the student to make it more precise within the guidelines presented by the prompt.
October 11 at 10:33am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond How would you fix it?
October 11 at 10:33am · Like
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John Ruplinger ^ That is the challenge. It's also fun.
October 11 at 10:37am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Would you replace "forces or ideas" with "worldviews"?
October 11 at 10:40am · Like
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John Ruplinger "highlight or clarify a difference helpful to understand the play or story as a whole" - to replace the whole part I quoted above.
October 11 at 10:42am · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond "A difference" is even more imprecise, is it not?
October 11 at 10:44am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Much of my emphasis in teaching essay writing was focused on students being precise. Precise if broad questions help. It really helped the students. Iguess Newman's essay influenced me too. . . . . . "Difference" is general but doesn't have the ambiguities of forces or ideas.
October 11 at 10:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger How about "distinction". . . . Everything is about distinctions.
October 11 at 10:51am · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think students would be more perplexed by "difference" or "distinction" because it is so broad. You have to give them something, dare I say, more precise, to get them looking in the right direction. While I don't see the world in terms of "forces," many literary texts do, and so writing about forces in those texts would make sense. Certainly speaking of contrasting "ideas" is quite precise and a meaningful part of almost any literary work.
October 11 at 10:52am · Like
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John Ruplinger As Newman wrote, boys are nothing so much as imprecise. Essay on Elementary Education. Best piece in his Idea of a University.
October 11 at 10:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I appreciate AP and what it does for students. I was an IB student, myself.
October 11 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think there are many problems with AP, but I am fine with AP English Lit. The AP history courses are another matter. Teaching the truth vs. preparing for the test are in serious tension with one another. I have always wondered about IB. Was it a good experience for you?
October 11 at 11:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The AP history courses are not really a problem in themselves, it is how they are taught that causes issues. They really give a very general framework that I did not find objectionable in my experience.
IB being international, is certainly agenda driven, probably more so than AP. That being said, when I went through, once again, there was wide latitude in what "had" to be taught.
IB does have a Theory of Knowledge course which is ultimately "Husserl for high school," but what did you expect?
October 11 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In the end, both programs teach students how to study, and can help them get out of GEDs in college, which seems like a good thing.
October 11 at 11:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If anyone is interested in the AP U.S. History framework, it is here:
http://media.collegeboard.com/.../ap-us-history-course...
October 11 at 11:33am · Like
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Scott Weinberg This is pretty good too. After learning the AP style inside and out as an editor, I then had to learn this:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/pagedetails.action...
U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual
GPO.GOV
October 11 at 11:34am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I disagree about the AP history courses. As an obvious example, AP world history certainly does not recognize the Incarnation as the central event in human history. They pretend to take a scientific, objective approach to the study of history, but the approach is anything but that. A teacher can go a long way to counteract the agenda of AP world, but one is constantly torn between genuine history and getting the students ready for what is expected by the AP folks.
Interesting about the theory of knowledge course in IB. The AP folks shy away from philosophy, at least for now. Once they see there is money to be made, I suspect one will appear.
October 11 at 11:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Given secularization, one can hardly be surprised at the exclusion of the Incarnation. I am not saying that is a good thing, but it is the way things are. There are still many good skills that one learns in AP.
October 11 at 11:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One can hardly expect something that is a matter of faith to be proposed as the central tenet to a course that is not theological.
October 11 at 11:38am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The APs are also being dumbed down dramatically. AP U.S. is making another change right now. They make it sound good, of course, but the reality is they are expecting less knowledge from the students.
Of course I am not surprised about the exclusion of the Incarnation. My point is that as a teacher of this course, one is torn between test prep (based on what the AP people want) and genuine history.
October 11 at 11:39am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman AP is more focused on developing skills than mastering content.
October 11 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Style guides are fascinating. Language seems to be in constant flux, and they seem to be a snapshot of current usage, for the sake of clarity.
October 11 at 11:40am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond When it comes to history, AP is more about propaganda. As for skills, the AP examiners in history do not grade down for poor writing, poor spelling, incorrect grammar, etc. There are some skills in analysis, etc. that are taught.
October 11 at 11:42am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Jeffrey Bond, those are hard words against the AP (Associated Press) Style Guide.
October 11 at 11:47am · Edited · Like
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Scott Weinberg Here is the Ant by Physiologus, an English from Latin translation, several hundreds of years ago. But see how he goes on at length.
CONCERNING THE ANT
Now to us all by its work the Ant should afford an
example,
Since all the food that it needs is carried home in its
mouth,
And in its actions, to us often indicates spiritual
matters,
(Which since the Jew does not love,) of these, he
stands the accused.
Seeking for safety, against the frosts of the winter
approaching,
Long as the earth has its heat, it never ceases to
work,
Then brothers, while we have time, let us copy the
Ant in its labours,
Lest at the end of all time we hear the doom of our
Judge.
Seeking for grain, the Ant, if it finds any barley,
rejects it,
Thus should a man try to find law which is new, not
the old,
But lest the grain should sprout in the rain, when
wetted with moisture
Then being useless for food, there should be
nothing to eat,
Each prudent Ant divides in two parts all the grain it
has gathered,
Thus showing clearly one law which in its way has
two paths,
One which seems of the earth, yet is turning our
thoughts towards heaven,
This now feedeth the soul, yet too the body is fed,69
Let this one be our guide, so thus we be guarded
from famine,
At the last judgment of all. Surely our winter of time.
October 11 at 11:44am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond History is not theology, true enough. But how to approach history necessarily raises theological questions. Through what lens does one look at all the phenomena? The AP history folks don't want to deal with this problem. They pretend their approach is purely scientific and objective when it clearly is not.
October 11 at 11:44am · Like · 1
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Scott Weinberg Here is my Ant. A little bit different...
Every Any, among the males and Queens,
Performs its work according to its means,
So work with others in society,
And play your part in simple harmony.
October 11 at 11:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman At least according to the framework I linked (US History) the corse is largely skills based. I would not deny any agenda, but I see it as a good course.
October 11 at 11:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Frankly, the previous AP US HIstory Course required too much content.
October 11 at 11:46am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Perhaps, if the students had only one year to prepare for it. In New Jersey they have two, so it did not in my mind overdo the content.
October 11 at 11:47am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The agenda is liberal, no surprise, if only because the high school teachers and college profs who are the test makers and readers are generally so.
October 11 at 11:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger AP is ok so long as it doesn't get in the way of teaching. In Latin, I just did what I would normally do except the last couple weeks. I cut out half the AP part and focused on Latin. What was cut is only 5 percent of the test. Anyways, some AP are less an obstacle than others.
October 11 at 11:52am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Interesting to note that the unspoken theological perspective in AP history was Christian for many years insofar as B.C. and A.D. were used. Now, in AP world at least that B.C.E. and C.E. are the standard. It is ironic of course that they really did not replace the Christian calendar; they simply changed the outward designations while still relying implicitly on the Incarnation as the pivotal point for all of history.
October 11 at 11:56am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond But what else could those poor AP folks do? They have yet to propose a dating system based on some supposedly scientific/objective measure draw from the phenomena of history itself. When they finally get around to this, as the French revolutionaries did, it will be fascinating to see what they come up with.
October 11 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Interesting points, the only AP exam I did was Calculus (eons ago).
October 11 at 11:59am · Like
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Michael Beitia I took an AP US history course and we had three textbooks. It was a pain
October 11 at 11:59am · Like
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Scott Weinberg Does TAC really graduate atheists and homosexuals? I thought the Blue Book described secular academia as a tyranny for doing that.
October 11 at 12:00pm · Like
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John Ruplinger AP history is a crap shoot. Haven't taught it but some of those long essay questions are eyepoppers even from a saecular view. I wouldn't know what to say. I couldn't come up with a how to work around the official curriculum course.
October 11 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Your poor AP teacher was probably told he had to get all 5s or he would get the axe. Hence, he choose all three textbooks in hopes it would produce AP scholars.
October 11 at 12:01pm · Like
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Michael Beitia She, and she was a liberal "catholic" pro-abortion etc. etc. etc.
The titles were: "Ethnic America" "The Way We Lived" and some actual textbook.
October 11 at 12:02pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Must have been a blast.
October 11 at 12:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia not particularly. But being an atheist in a secular high school made for good times getting her distracted with political issues.
October 11 at 12:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Max is Adrw Lang 2.0
October 11 at 12:03pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I can imagine.
October 11 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Max is Scott's response to Scrott
October 11 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Ethnic America: The Way We Were. Written and performed by Barbara Streisand, I believe.
October 11 at 12:06pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia There is a profound difficulty in teaching history without reference to religion as anything other than "ideology".
October 11 at 12:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ethnic America was actually interesting because each chapter was about a different immigrant group.
October 11 at 12:06pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Did it also proceed chronologically?
October 11 at 12:09pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Christopher Dawson's essays in the Dynamics of World History demonstrate an approach to religion as something other than ideology.
October 11 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson You guys should join me in reporting Scott's new "Max" account. And Matthew J. Peterson, please for the love of TNET unfriend him.
October 11 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia as I remember, it went German, Italian, Irish, Chinese.... but that is just off the top of my head
October 11 at 12:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Well, Sean, in point of fact TAC has graduated atheists and gays. Correlation is not causality.
October 11 at 12:14pm · Like
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Max Summe Scott made a Max account?
October 11 at 12:14pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Michael, I mostly just think it's stupid for people to make accounts posing as other people, especially as a kind of revenge.
October 11 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia oh, well there's that. It is why I completely ignore it.
October 11 at 12:18pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Max, yes, or at least I assume that's what's going on with that Max Haaf Garneaux account.
October 11 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson For the record, I'm not a fan of that Scrott account either.
October 11 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson So it goes both ways.
October 11 at 12:20pm · Like
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Max Summe I prefer mocking Scott directly, myself.
October 11 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia at least that one is clever. It is more like a bot than revenge. But you're at least consistent.
October 11 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Mocking just gets you blocked and then you miss the fun
October 11 at 12:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia meta-tNET....
October 11 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe hehe
October 11 at 12:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey Bond:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic.../dp/0465020755/ref=sr_1_1...
Ethnic America: A History
This classic work by the distinguished economist traces the history of nine American ethnic groupsthe Irish,...
AMAZON.COM
October 11 at 12:22pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Is Sowell a libertarian?
October 11 at 12:25pm · Like
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Max Summe I totally thought Scrott was Scott when I first started reading his comments b/c it sounded so much like Scott....
October 11 at 12:29pm · Like
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Monica Murphy Daniel, I didn't know you were an IB grad. I'm teaching IB Literature now and loving it. Theory of Knowledge is both a potentially awesome and potentially terrible course, I think - just depends on who teaches it.
October 11 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson How about we all drop the fake name accounts?
October 11 at 12:53pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Silly stuff. Just ignore trollery in all directions.
October 11 at 12:54pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Matthew J. Peterson Re: the fake name accounts--can't you just unfriend them?
October 11 at 1:06pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau I also graduated through the IB program. But our ToK class was horrible.
October 11 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I prefered Max Lederhosen to all the other trolls.
October 11 at 2:06pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Max Summe Ugh. I still haven't seen the fake Max account b/c Scott is such a _____ he blocked me I guess?
I didn't make Scrott, though I'm sure Mr. Thick Skin probably thinks I did.
October 11 at 1:39pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is the Max fake account gone? (or I am also blocked because I saw it last night)
October 11 at 2:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I defriended both fake accounts
October 11 at 2:05pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict Ignore, ignore, ignore
October 11 at 2:12pm · Like
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Isak Benedict At yesterday's Educator Day for the Diocese of Phoenix, the focus of which was the integration of digital technology into the classroom, a cell phone went off during Consecration at morning Mass. Which, were I to read it in a novel, I would take as an example of hamfisted symbolism. God's funny.
October 11 at 3:06pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger God's irony surpasses all other. His symbolism too.
October 11 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Stopping in to say Hi and Lila is amazing. Catherine Joliat Feil, lay your fears to rest.
October 11 at 4:05pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman My brother in law's cell phone went off in church once...and the Father walked up to him afterwards and slapped him.
October 11 at 4:16pm · Like
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John Ashman Not hard, but just enough to be funny. Like "here's your blessing and BTW, POW!"
October 11 at 4:17pm · Like
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Isak Benedict The irony was not lost on me.
October 11 at 4:18pm · Like
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John Ashman There is a program that will automatically shut your phone off in church.
October 11 at 4:22pm · Like
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John Ashman Jeffrey Bond, Sowell is probably a libertarian. I've never seen him say anything unlibertarian. But i don't know if he calls himself that. I think he sees himself as a free market conservative, which can have some differences.
October 11 at 4:26pm · Like
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John Ashman "While often described as a black conservative, he prefers not to be labeled, having stated, "I prefer not to have labels, but I suspect that 'libertarian' would suit me better than many others, although I disagree with the libertarian movement on a number of things""
October 11 at 4:28pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I came to tNET to take a break from grading papers, but it appears that everyone else must be busy grading papers--or hopefully doing something more delightful. As much as I love the Odyssey, too many papers on the wanderings of Odysseus can do horrible things to a mind.
October 11 at 8:25pm · Like · 6
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Brian Kemple I should be doing something productive, so I'm looking at my dissertation every minute or so while I watch a hockey game. This completely justifies watching the game.
October 11 at 8:38pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Has anyone else ever wondered why in the Nicene Creed the word "one" is used to describe God the Father (unum Deum Patrem), God the Son (unum Dominum Iesum Christum), the Church (unam Ecclesiam) and even baptism (unum baptisma), but not the Holy Ghost?
October 11 at 8:48pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia just finished birthday cake
October 11 at 8:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nB5VxPOoio
Harry Nilsson..." One "
"I get nervous when they start shooting piano players". Harry Nilsson
YOUTUBE.COM
October 11 at 9:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Happy Canadian Thanksgiving
October 11 at 9:36pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Jeffrey, I can honestly say I have never wondered that.
October 11 at 9:37pm · Like
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Sean Robertson My initial speculation: All the other unums seem to be replying to some common belief otherwise (more than one God, more than one Church, more than one baptism), except for the "unum Dominum Jesum Christum", where it is not immediately clear to me against what the unum would be responding. Unless it is asserting the unity of the person Jesus Christ as man and as God (Lord) against those who posit some kind of division in Christ. If that were the case then each unum would have a particular reason for being there, whereas perhaps there was no heresy asserting multiple Holy Spirits.
October 11 at 9:44pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Your initial speculation makes a lot of sense. It still seems strange, however, especially given the difficulty of grasping who the Holy Spirit is, that "one" would not be used about what we believe concerning the Holy Spirit since the idea of many spirits would seem quite common (even if there were not a particular heresy on that question).
October 11 at 10:05pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Quick everyone: what's your go to English version of the Bible?
October 11 at 10:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Douay
October 11 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Ditto.
October 11 at 10:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia my mother-in-law bought me the Haydock a couple of years ago for my birthday (nerds!!!) and that's the standard for me
October 11 at 10:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
Sitting alone
with wine and spaghetti
I crack myself up
October 11 at 10:37pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia .
Is it haiku time?
my giant beer seems empty
let's crack another
October 11 at 10:40pm · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Hooded warbler, there!
Iridescent sunlit wings -
Prints left in damp earth.
October 11 at 10:49pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict .
there are those who say
freedom cannot be given -
but plucked roses die
October 11 at 11:40pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You did it. With the warbler. Sliced the melon.
October 11 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Bravo.
October 11 at 11:42pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Well, I'm not really happy with it because it does not even remotely capture the experience of seeing the hooded warbler that day.
October 11 at 11:50pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson Joel, RSVCE.
October 11 at 11:53pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Direct translations, rather than translation of a translation (as is the Douay, although that's definitely number two).
October 11 at 11:54pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I think the RSVCE was the one the TAC bookstore used to sell for use in Freshman Theology.
October 12 at 12:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I still have my copy, with all my ignorant Freshman marginalia.
October 12 at 12:01am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The hooded warbler
October 12 at 12:01am · Like · 5
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Sean Robertson Daniel, yep. And the old blue one is better than the new red one, for the record.
October 12 at 12:02am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson .
What beautiful clay
Formed, broken, reformed
Better than before
October 12 at 12:07am · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell nagaki hi mo
saezuri taranu
hibari kana
(even so long
a day not enough for singing —
that skylark)
—Basho
October 12 at 12:10am · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell A cool fall night—
getting dinner, we peeled
eggplants, cucumbers.
—Basho
October 12 at 12:13am · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond Basho is Lord of the Haiku
October 12 at 12:13am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Nice skylark!
October 12 at 12:14am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPqmGGviqZ8
Skylark - lyrics by Johnny Mercer and music by Hoagy Carmichael
Asterios Papastamatakis piano - https://www.facebook.co...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 12 at 12:17am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell No papers to grade.
A free semester — relief.
Autumn moon rises.
October 12 at 12:24am · Like · 4
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Daniel P. O'Connell Poetry of a different sort:
October 12 at 12:28am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I have over 60 midterms to grade total. Heh. It's not the sword of Damocles - more like a gigantic bulldozer hanging above my head.
October 12 at 12:29am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Brutal
October 12 at 12:29am · Like
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Brian Kemple I am at a bar,
Still T-N-E-T calls me;
Autumnal jollies.
October 12 at 12:31am · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson But grading midterms is better than having to do so many other things, and I have it easy compared to others, I'm sure.
October 12 at 12:35am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The good old days. When the only test was an oral exam at year's end.
October 12 at 12:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell We really need to bring back the oral exam in academia.
October 12 at 12:32am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell So much more accurate.
October 12 at 12:32am · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I watched Sunset Boulevard last night and plan to watch Altman's The Player tonight.
October 12 at 12:32am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Regardless of the multiple bulldozers hanging over head.
October 12 at 12:33am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Rarely watch movies. But - autumnal jollies.
October 12 at 12:33am · Like · 6
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Daniel P. O'Connell Was listening to Wagner earlier, but I won't bore you all with that. Some 'entartete' jazz instead: http://youtu.be/bGLJ3AnwQ7w
Skylark - Maxine Sullivan
Recorded in New York, 1947. Written by Johnny Mercer and Hoagy Carmichael.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 12 at 12:35am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Holden is outstanding in Sunset Boulevard. True film noir.
October 12 at 12:35am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Wagner isn't boring, whatever else one thinks he is.
October 12 at 12:35am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I never knew that the Norma Desmond character was played by someone whose life was essentially that of the character.
October 12 at 12:36am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Gloria Swanson nails the character.
October 12 at 12:38am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Boy does she ever.
Interesting to watch and think that the first celebrities of the silent screen were global stars on a scale that in some ways is probably much greater than what we see today. And that the problem of celebrity was identified very clearly early on. Not surprising, but it rings loudly while watching the movie.
Although as the global movie market swells higher and higher, stardom will become more global than ever.
October 12 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell This is another great version, by the way, instrumental. Not only Paul Desmond, but also Ron Carter (bass) and Jack DeJohnette (drums):
http://youtu.be/x_ZPceluIsY
Skylark - Paul Desmond
Album: Skylark, Paul Desmond with Bob James (el-p); Gene Bertoncini (g); Ron Carter (b); Jack DeJohnette (d);...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 12 at 12:41am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What other LA-ish movies does tNET recommend? Or any surprisingly wonderful or possibly unknown movie that should be on my list?
October 12 at 12:42am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell LA-ish? Transformers 3?
See Translation
October 12 at 12:42am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson These haikus soothe the soul.
October 12 at 12:42am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The Big Sleep
October 12 at 12:43am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I mean, the soundtrack is by Linkin Park. It doesn't get any more LA than that.
October 12 at 12:43am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I jest ...
October 12 at 12:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Shut. It.
October 12 at 12:43am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Chinatown, of course ...
October 12 at 12:44am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF_chuSy9G4
the big sleep
bogart bacall
YOUTUBE.COM
October 12 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I do need to see Chinatown again sometime soon to deconstruct and take notes. I saw End of Watch, Training Day, and Collateral also in the last year or so, but once is enough to ingest. LA Story I've seen too many times.
October 12 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Never seen the Big Sleep. Will do. But I will want to read the book first. Want to see The Long Goodbye movie as well after just finishing the book.
October 12 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell In a Lonely Place (Nicholas Ray, 1950)
October 12 at 12:49am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Raymond Chandler is the best.
October 12 at 12:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell If you want some Altman and LA, check out Short Cuts (1993). Supposedly the script was based off of several Raymond Carver stories transplanted to L.A.
October 12 at 12:53am · Like
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Sean Robertson .
Warm afternoon sun
thoughtful wonder flows freely-
but late for practice
October 12 at 12:54am · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple What's the feeling round these parts for Wes Anderson?
October 12 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I need to see short cuts and In a Lonely Place. Short Cuts isn't online and I'm often too lazy to walk or drive to the local artsy DVD store
October 12 at 12:54am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That big sleep clip was fantastic. Randy.
October 12 at 12:55am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell Would they have it at the public library? Or do those not exist in SoCal any more?
October 12 at 12:56am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sometimes I love Wes. Who couldn't like Rushmore?!? But other times I feel like he needs to be slapped in the face and told to snap out of it.
October 12 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell *rimshot*
October 12 at 12:56am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Pfft. Our public libraries have a month long celebration of Homer going on right now, and no not Mr. Simpson.
October 12 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell I feel like he sort of hit his peak with The Darjeeling Limited.
October 12 at 12:57am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You are correct though. I could also walk or drive to the public library or the 5 colleges library.
October 12 at 12:58am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Will this comment be 35,000?
October 12 at 12:59am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Heh.
October 12 at 12:59am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Three more oldies: Double Indemnity (Chandler again); Kiss Me Deadly; and In a Lonely Place. And more recently, Magnolia.
October 12 at 1:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell A month-long celebration of Homer ... impressive.
October 12 at 1:00am · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I miss the main branch of the NYPL something awful some days ... especially ordering up a book from the stacks and waiting for my number to come up ...
October 12 at 1:01am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Magnolia is wonderful. Another PT Anderson favorite of mine is Punch-Drunk Love.
October 12 at 1:06am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We forgot The Graduate.
October 12 at 1:07am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Plastics
October 12 at 1:07am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Check it:
http://lfla.org/odyssey/
Library Foundation of Los Angeles : Odyssey
The L.A. Odyssey Project | Journeying into the neighborhoods of Los Angeles.
LFLA.ORG
October 12 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Looks good--except there are no rhapsodes scheduled to perform.
October 12 at 1:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Ithaka
=======
As you set out for Ithaka
hope the voyage is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians and Cyclops,
angry Poseidon—don’t be afraid of them:
you’ll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians and Cyclops,
wild Poseidon—you won’t encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.
Hope the voyage is a long one.
May there be many a summer morning when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you come into harbors seen for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind—
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to gather stores of knowledge from their scholars.
Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you are destined for.
But do not hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you are old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you would not have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.
And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.
—Constantine Cavafy
October 12 at 1:14am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I actually put Grand Budapest on the same level as Life Aquatic. Less character, better plot.
October 12 at 1:17am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond All this Odyssey talk makes me realize that I must resist the siren song of tNET, curb my wild desire, and get back to the grind of grading papers. Sleep well, gentlemen.
October 12 at 1:18am · Like · 5
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Daniel P. O'Connell Sleep well. I am off to bed also.
October 12 at 1:19am · Like
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Isak Benedict I can't get over that warbler haiku. Posting an unpacking later. For now, about to watch The Seventh Seal with some friends. Bergman is otherworldly!
October 12 at 2:07am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz The RSVCE is not as close to the Greek NT as the Douay is. The translation of a translation point is a red herring. In fact, the RSVCE is one of the least on my list, below the NAB.
The text it is based on, the original RSV, is too much dynamic equivalence and many translation decisions are based on questionable theology. The RSV was it developed later was more faithful, but that is not what the RSVCE is based on. And what, changing highly favored on ton full of grace, and changing brothers to brethren suddenly makes it great?
Now if you want a great alternate for the New Testament, Lattimore is quite good.
October 12 at 4:56am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz As evidence
Matthew 16:26
RSV-CE
For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life .
Douay Rheims- Challoner
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
While ψυχὴν can be rendered life, its first meaning is soul and it works better here.
2. Cor. 2:10
RSV-CE
Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ/
Douay Rheims
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.
And for the hell of it
Knox
If you shew indulgence to anybody, so do I too; I myself, wherever I have shewn indulgence, have done so in the person of Christ for your sakes.
And Lattimore has
Who you forgive I too forgive; and if I have forgiven, what I forgave was for your sake, before the face of Christ.
This is rather difficult as persona has more meaning now, because of what Christians gave it, then before. Per-sonare-to thoroughly sound, persona was the name of an actor´s mask because it amplified sound. From there to the character that wore the mask, etc. The Greek common equivalent to what we know as person has a very different etymology, hypostasis, originally the sludge on the bottom of a river.
Now the word in Greek is ᴨροσωπω prosōpō. This should actually support person in English very strongly. Prosopa were masks worn by actors, just personæ were. Moreover, both underwent much the same shift in meaning, and prosōpōn is used for person in Greek. However it also means face and countenance, and was often use to mean in one´s presence (compare, He was there in person). In such case it implies a bodily presence.
So St. Jerome translated the NT very literally, and persona for prosōpō is a clear example. However, we need to be clear that in English "in the person of Christ" and "in the presence of Christ" are not so different after all. For what is meant by that he did these things in the person of Christ that is different than in the presence of Christ? Both translations fall short, the first implying a later meaning of person where you might miss the sense of both persona and prosōpō to mean in the presence of a person, and the latter does not have the same strength.
I like the Lattimore the best in some ways. He certainly relying on the meaning of prosopo that means face or countenance, which id directly derived from its first mean as mask.
October 12 at 5:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I was shocked to find how off from the Greek the RSVCE is. I was almost as shocked as when I found out how CLOSE to the Greek the Douay is.
October 12 at 5:24am · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz 1 Thess 4:4 is one of a few examples where the CE revision corrected the RSV
RSV
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God
RSV-CE
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God;
Douay Rheims
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that you should abstain from fornication; That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour: Not in the passion of lust, like the Gentiles that know not God:
Key verse in Greek: εἰδέναι ἕκαστον ὑμῶν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κτᾶσθαι ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ τιμῇ,
That said, here it is just the heretical protestants haveing their way with scripture against every sense of the word
The word vessel or skeuos most likely refers to one's body, as the vessel of the soul. St. Paul is talking about not abusing the body in fornication and uncleaness.
This is not just evident from the fact that skeuos is used that way by actual Greek authors, but it is how Paul uses it elsewhere
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency may be of the power of God, and not of us. (2 Cor 4:7)
At best, they could point to Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered (1 Peter 3:7)
But vessel doesn't mean wife there, the wife is called the weaker vessel.
October 12 at 5:28am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, at least RSVCE is better than RSV here. Much better, in fact.
October 12 at 5:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Douay is still best.
October 12 at 5:31am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz My favorite example to lead people to appreciate the DR more was Phillipians 2:5-11
Compare verses 6 in various rendering
Knox
His nature is, from the first, divine, and yet he did not see, in the rank of Godhead, a prize to be coveted;
NAB
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
RSV-CE
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
NIV
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
DR (Same as KJV)
Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
Vulgata Clementina (same as Nova Vulgata)
qui cum in forma Dei esset non rapinam arbitratus est esse se aequalem Deo (Vulgata Clementina et Nova Vulgata) This can be translated two ways " Who although he was in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal to God" in which case the sense of the although must be against the 7th verse (his dispossession), not the "did not think" cause otherwise it would make no sense or " Who since he was in the form of God did not think it robbery to be equal to God" or even "Who being..." But the subjunctive would be unnecessary then.
NA-27
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ,
Literally (in word order) "Who in the form of God subsisting did not robbery hold the being equal to God"
huparchos, original means to be under a leader, but can simply mean is. Then it has the sense of permanent versus temporary. A similar meaning and etymology to subsistens in Latin (standing under) which then means existing simply.
harpagmov means either robbery or rape (think rapine). Therefore the Vulgate rapinam, with the same meanings, is perfect as can be for it. Robbery best in English. Hegesato originally meant to take command, but post Homer it means to regard, hold, consider something to be. THERE IS NO THOUGH or ALTHOUGH in ANY manuscript listed by Nestle Aland, so unless some technical point of Greek idioms brings one out, it is not there.
So, " who subsisting in the form of God, did not hold being equal to God robbery" is a very literal translation of the Greek.
The DR and KJV seem obviously to have rendered it most accurately. And for that matter, much more clearly than the modern translations, which at best make it murkier and often seem to say something quite different which has led to many misreading the verse!
October 12 at 5:52am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I had a paper with a ton of other places of comparison (including the NAB)...but can't find it. Suffice it, the NAB edged out over the RSV CE for accuracy, but (leaving aside things like the Johannine comma) the DR, in the New Testament, was superior to the rest
October 12 at 5:57am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz With regard to the Old Testament, no valid comparison is able to be made between the Douay Rheims and modern translation, because there we must recognize multiple manuscript traditions and the idea of the "original text" is nonsense.
The RSV and NAB may be compared, as representing the Masoretic tradition. The Douay Rheims shows another tradition, even going back to the original Hebrew sources, sometimes (as in the Psalter) this is the Septuagint, or in some cases maybe proto-Septuagint tradition. While the Dead Sea scrolls do align with the proto-Masoretic text, that is no clear indication of "greater authenticity". The break down is 1/5 is Qumran specific, 35% proto-Masoretic, 5% proto-Septuagint, 5% proto-Samaritan, 35% other
The fact is, even a while before Christ, there were multiple recensions of the Hebrew. What would become the Masoretic was becoming dominant already in the time of Christ, yet the Septuagint was also widely used and regarded as equally valid by the Fathers. Scholars now recognize that the differences aren't really due to translation, mostly, but to the Septuagint being based on a different Hebrew recension, hence "proto-Septuagint"
The DR, and Knox, remain the only Catholic English translations that witness to the intended liturgical text of certain passage. We see this in Ecclesiaticus (Sirach)
In several Marian feasts we have this passage
As the vine I have brought forth a pleasant odor, and my flowers are the fruit of honor and riches. I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits; for my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honey-comb. My memory is unto everlasing generations. They that eat me, shall yet hunger: and they that drink me, shall yet thirst. He that heakeneth to me, shall not be confounded, and they that work by me, shall not sin. They that explain me, shall have life everlasting. (Ecclesiaticus 24. 23-31)
Aside from the different verse numberings, the passage in the RSVCE and NAB is very different
Like a vine I caused loveliness to bud, and my blossoms became glorious and abundant fruit. “Come to me, you who desire me, and eat your fill of my produce. For the remembrance of me is sweeter than honey, and my inheritance sweeter than the honeycomb. Those who eat me will hunger for more, and those who drink me will thirst for more. Whoever obeys me will not be put to shame, and those who work with my help will not sin.”
This is not as much a translation issue, but rather one of a different recension. FWIW the Nova Vulgata, and hence the Latin Lectionary for the Novus Ordo agrees with the Douay Rheims
Mr. Clark was one of the few tutors at TAC I remember grasping the actual issue of manuscripts here. It isn't an issue always of a "best."
If I knew Hebrew and my Greek were better, etc, a dream would be to do as Jerome did with the Psalter. He made three translations. Back then everyone was a liturgical traditionalist, and radical change was rejected, so his translation from the Hebrew was only used by scholars. He also revised the Vetus Latina, and this became the Versio Romana. His translation from the Septuagint is the Versio Gallicana. At one time the Roman was used in Italy, and the Gallican in France. Eventually it ame to the point that the Gallican was used in the Divine Office and in the chants of the propers of the Mass, but what the priest would read in the Missal was the Roman! So two texts for the Introit, etc. St. Peter's Basilica and St. Marks in Venice alone kept the Versio Romana for the office. Interesting, in the Novus Ordo it remains in one place only, Psalm 94, the Invitory psalm is the old Vulgate Versio Romana...everywhere else the Gallicana or Nova Vulgata is used
Anyhow, we could have a parallel bible with a translation of each "tradition" done according to the same rules and style. Plus side, as long as we are using the vernacular in liturgy, we could truly match the intent within the Latin editio typica of the Novus Ordo, which keeps the versio Romana in one place, the versio Gallicana in many, and a more Hebraicised Nova Vulgata elsewhere, thus not relying on one rule.
October 12 at 6:23am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Thoughts, Daniel Lendman?
October 12 at 6:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, I think that is a brillian plan. Learn Hebrew and get better at Greek!
Also, from what I understand your thoughts about the different traditions is correct. It would be interesting to find out more about them.
October 12 at 7:58am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman At your leisure TNET. I would be interested in your thoughts on original justice.
October 12 at 9:30am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh I wanted thoughts on Halloween. I grew up with the Protestant Halloween is evil so I'm wondering what the Catholic approach to it is (just so I don't freak out the grandparents some reasonings would be nice)
October 12 at 9:36am · Like
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Daniel Lendman No time to say much, Lauren, but I think a moderate celebration of Halloween with costumes and candy, etc. is not harmful at all.
October 12 at 10:17am · Unlike · 3
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Sean Robertson Kenz, those are very insightful comments re: biblical translation. Thanks.
October 12 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Not really on board with the DR ... can't understand why people don't just prefer the RSVCE. If I'm going to have my bible translated into English, I'd like it to be non-idiomatic English.
October 12 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell In the Philippians verse, "something to be grasped (at)" is sanctioned by long use in English.
October 12 at 12:40pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell "Robbery" even if more accurate sounds odd.
October 12 at 12:40pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Chandler lovers, my buddies are coming out with an annotated Big Sleep soon (Random House, I think). Keep an (private) eye out for it.
October 12 at 12:49pm · Like · 4
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Pater Edmund Joel, Robert Alter's translations of various Old Testament books are the best. Hopefully he will have done the whole thing before he dies. Then one could have Alter for the OT and Lattimore for the NT.
October 12 at 1:40pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Here's a good review of Alter's pentateuch: http://www.firstthings.com/.../08/robert-alters-fidelity
Robert Alter’s Fidelity
As the Italians say, traduttori, tradittori : translators are traitors. But the translator who shrugs and”cheerfully or...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 12 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Alter is really good except for some oddities. Fox is great for Torah, and Lattimore tops for NT. Pater Edmund you have such good taste
October 12 at 1:45pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz O'Connell, I gave you a very good reason why not to prefer the RSV-CE. It is a protestant translation, with mostly aesthetic changes (though my Thessolonians example is more than that). It is less accurate to the Greek, almost everywhere it disagrees with the Douay Rheims.
The thing is, there are good protestant translation. The 1946 RSV is not one of them.
October 12 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz If you want modern English, the NAB is actually better than the RSV-CE
October 12 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz If you want modern English, the NAB is actually better than the RSV-CE
And a wrong translation doesn't become right because of "long use" (meaning 20th century use).
October 12 at 2:37pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz If you want modern English, the NAB is actually better than the RSV-CE
And a wrong translation doesn't become right because of "long use" (meaning 20th century use).
And there is no doubting that it is not just style there, people trip up on that passage and anyone who deals with normal laypeople trying to learn the faith, have seen them either stumped by or even scandlized by that passage (and not in the way Paul meant to cause scandal, the scandal of the cross)
October 12 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't think we can speak in terms of "wrong" or "right" in the black and white way you want to speak about them. Yes, the Greek word means "robbery" or something akin to that, but I fail to see what is "wrong" in translating it "grasped (at)" ... if by "wrong" you mean "not literal" I'll agree with you.
October 12 at 2:40pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz If you want modern English, the NAB is actually better than the RSV-CE
And a wrong translation doesn't become right because of "long use" (meaning 20th century use).
And there is no doubting that it is not just style there, people trip up on that passage and anyone who deals with normal laypeople trying to learn the faith, have seen them either stumped by or even scandlized by that passage (and not in the way Paul meant to cause scandal, the scandal of the cross)
If you do not see it, you have NEVER dealt with regular lay people and this verse. It is taken to support kenotic theology
October 12 at 2:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Facebook is malfunctioning
October 12 at 2:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Facebook is malfunctioning
Anyhow, the passage is not about "kenosis" in the Incarnation, but the Cross
But emptied himself,
-----taking the form of a servant,
----------being made in the likeness of men,
---------- and in habit found as a man.
----- He humbled himself,
becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
October 12 at 2:43pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're right ... I've NEVER dealt with regular lay-people. I have, however, been working as a translator (mostly German -> English) for about 7 years now. I fail to see what "robbery" gives you over "grasping"
October 12 at 2:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Facebook is malfunctioning
Anyhow, the passage is not about "kenosis" in the Incarnation, but the Cross
But emptied himself,
-----taking the form of a servant,
----------being made in the likeness of men,
---------- and in habit found as a man.
----- He humbled himself,
becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
Really?
October 12 at 2:44pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Stupid Facebook
The way it is read in the NAB and RSV, and why in fact they translated it that way, is as kenotic theology. Which is wrong. It is not that he didn't aspire to equality with God or as the NIV puts it
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
Funny the translators think they mean very different things, with those behind modern translations saying that the DR is wrong. But you know German, and therefore what?
October 12 at 2:46pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Who said anything about "kenosis" ??
October 12 at 2:46pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz EVERYONE That is the damn issue with the passage
October 12 at 2:47pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell You're carrying on an argument with the Balthasarians, not me...
October 12 at 2:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz EVERYONE That is the damn issue with the passage
And with the very people who translated it that way
October 12 at 2:48pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Um, okay.
October 12 at 2:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Stupid facebook again...it keeps adding the text of my previous post. If you are one of 0.01% of people who read those translations as meaning the same thing, well bully for you. The translators don't, they argue the DR is wrong.
But every layperson I have encountered has either had difficulties or misread the passage because of the translation.
You have special gnosis apparently.
October 12 at 2:50pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell #philippiansgnosis
October 12 at 2:51pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell But I think we're not really disagreeing ... you're more concerned in this most recent posts with the LATTER part of the verse, whereas I was just focusing on the "robbery" / "grasping" difference.
October 12 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell ... and I don't even want to get into kenosis.
October 12 at 2:52pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Although I will go with Dionysius the Areopagite in seeing the incarnation and everything that went along with that as an ontological event.
October 12 at 2:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz And the argument from modern translators is that "it must mean thing different thing here, because the passage is about kenosis"
Really, you know German. That is nice. If you want to defend the modern translation, maybe you should read up on it. I am not talking about the latter portion, but the grasping portion. They are not equivalent translations, they don't mean the same thing
the common rendering in newer translations is based on the claim that ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) can also mean clinging on to something already possessed. But this is tenuous at best. No one has shown any examples of that AFAIK, I have combed Pereus for it...nada. The noun derivative means spoil or thing seized. Whether it is what is to be seized or what is possessed from the result of robbery. Every argument against the DR or KJV rendering I have read argues based on that noun, which is not a real argument.
What it really is, and they make this argument, is eisegesis. They claim reading it according to the meaning of the word "to seize by force, rob" doesn't make sense in context, so the word must be transferable to this extended meaning that "makes sense" except no one I know sees how it makes sense, unless they hold kenotic Christology...but that is both rather novel, and condemned by the Church.
October 12 at 2:53pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That is just one example of the DR being better. Find anywhere they disagree, aside from say the Johannine comma, and the DR matches the Greek better.
October 12 at 2:55pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I never said they mean the same thing. As I said, I think you're fighting a battle with someone other than me.
October 12 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz No you made a stupid claim. "long use" (20th century) sanctions a translation. That I take issue with. It does not.
October 12 at 2:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman You guys have not been very helpful about talking about original justice, however.
October 12 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante You could all just admit that the Holy Spirit assisted the Lutherbibel and the KJV
October 12 at 3:13pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell Interestingly enough, Luther does use "Raub" there.
October 12 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell And my claim is not stupid.
October 12 at 3:13pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Intellectual tradition means something.
October 12 at 3:13pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Everybody be nice or I'll start handing out punishments. Forty lashes with a wet noodle to the next antagonist.
October 12 at 3:18pm · Like · 3
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Daniel P. O'Connell http://www.buzzfeed.com/.../these-photos-of-a-teenage...
These Photos Of A Teenage Melanie Griffith And Her Pet Lion In The 1970s Are Quite...
BUZZFEED.COM|BY KIMBERLEY DADDS
October 12 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Clickhole > Buzzfeed
October 12 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell *rowwwr*
October 12 at 3:20pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But that is an amazing series of pictures. What a noble beastie! I want a lion now.
October 12 at 3:21pm · Like · 2
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Sam Rocha Aslan > Mufasa
October 12 at 3:29pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Hey TNET I want to obtain two things this week - a classy grown-up briefcase, and a reliable manual typewriter. Does anyone here have any experience with these items and the relative quality available? Suggestions very welcome.
October 12 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I love watching Blockean vs. Non-Blockean arguments.
October 12 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau A question about the Adam and Eve thing: For those who hold the 'God just infused a soul in the body of a developing ape fetus so was evolved enough to have matter that could be human' idea, how do you make sense of praeternatural gifts?
October 12 at 4:05pm · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And question 2 that arose at the parish this week: if humans had not sinned (a long shot I know) would Jesus have still become incarnate?
October 12 at 4:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict One of the praeternatural gifts was the ability to pick out professional leather briefcases, right?
October 12 at 4:38pm · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz Intellectual tradition is only 20th century and based on questionable claims about the meaning of the passage.
The Johannine comma has a long "intellectual tradition" defending it, far longer than that impugning it, yet it seems near certain that it is not authentic. So yeah I find the argument stupid.
I do apologise for being a little harsh (FB was pissing me off with its malfunctioning and that raise my choleric). But I do not apologise for calling that argument stupid.
I gave good reasons why one would not "just prefer" the RSV-CE.
October 12 at 6:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Jody, with regard to your first question, I think that is a difficulty. We know dogmatically that the first man had original justice and bodily immortality (at least, as Augustine held, the possibility of not dying, rather than the impossibility of dying). It is close enough to dogma, and probably dogma from the ordinary and universal magisterium, that they also had the gift of integrity (freedom from irregular passions). The gift of knowledge is only the common teaching, not actually defined and that seems to be the problematic one.
It is different than the other gifts. St. Thomas teaches that it, and it alone, would not have been passed down to his offspring. It was only necessary, because it was necessary that man have knowledge of his supernatural end. I gave a talk on the creation of the first man and evolution and this was one of the sticky points. I did hold then that we could affirm either that God gave this grace to Adam either gradually or at a later point, or we could affirm that by some miracle he had the use of reason and knowledge from conception. Though I would favor the former (the latter seem to be a singular privilege of Christ)
October 12 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But what about briefcases?
October 12 at 6:32pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz The second question: Scotists hold that the Incarnation was predestined absolutely, but Thomists have argued that Christ's Incarnation was predestined on account of man's sin.
St. Thomas himself, when he raises this question, sticks with Scripture. Christ became incarnate to redeem man. What God would have willed to do had He willed not to permit sin, i.e. what He would have done had He not done what He did with creation, is just guessing. In fact, God from all eternity willed the creation of a world, in which He foresaw and permitted sin, and consequently willed to redeem the human race in Christ. Anything else, with due respect to Scotists, well it belongs to unanswerable hypotheticals
October 12 at 6:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Isak, clearly a sharp briefcase was one of those things necessary for Adam to fulfill his nature, and so knowledge of such would have been granted.
October 12 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I knew it
October 12 at 6:37pm · Like
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Isak Benedict After all he had to have a place to keep all his swag
October 12 at 6:37pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #swaggnosis
October 12 at 6:38pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #briefcasegnosis
October 12 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But even St Thomas seems to be kind of on the fence about the Incarnation. Apparently St Albert was in the 'Jesus would have come anyway' camp
October 12 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Yes, St. Albert was in that camp. I wouldn't say Aquinas was on the fence. He is very clear that, in fact, Christ's Incarnation was for redemption. He doesn't argue that it wouldn't have happened if man had not fallen, because we have no basis to argue one way or the other...it is pure wishing of evidence. Even conjecture is too strong
October 12 at 6:43pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz St. Albertus Magnus, St. Thomas' teacher, says it this way
I believe that the Son of God would have become man even if there had been no sin...Nevertheless, on this subject I say nothing in a definitive manner; but I believe that what I said is more in harmony with the piety of faith
St. Thomas would be like, "that's cool" and then be all like, "we can both agree that in, like, the actual order, God became man to like totally save us, right?" And St. Albert would be all like "Yep" and then they would go have a beer
That is my take on it
October 12 at 6:45pm · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley "welcher, ob er wohl in göttlicher Gestalt war, hielt er's nicht für einen Raub, Gott gleich sein."
October 12 at 7:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Just for comparison, Luther's translation seems to agree with the DR/KJV.
October 12 at 7:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley I think Kenz is right that the RSV-CE version is, at the very least, dangerously misleading.
October 12 at 7:16pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Of course, even Luther had the sense that the word didn't mean one thing in this passage, and another thing everywhere else.
I want to find my Lattimore and see how he translates it.
October 12 at 7:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley "He was in the form of God, but did not think to seize on the right to be equal to God, but stripped himself by taking the form of a slave"
October 12 at 7:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley As a side note, though, I've always understood the RSV's "who, though he was in the form of God,[a] did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" as pointing out Christ's humility, not as saying that he didn't know he was God.
October 12 at 7:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley But, the Douay-Rheims seems to say something like "he didn't doubt that he was God"
October 12 at 7:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley In comparison with which, I see how the RSVCE could be misleading.
October 12 at 7:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Kenz, the what if Albert and Thomas were valley girls dialogue. . . . . still chuckling
October 12 at 7:24pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
October 12 at 7:36pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #valleygirlgnosis
October 12 at 7:38pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict #likewhatevergnosis
October 12 at 7:38pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia #totallygnosis
October 12 at 7:39pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley .
3912 Michael Beitia
3209 Edward Langley
3093 Samantha Cohoe
3078 Daniel Lendman
2668 Scott Weinberg
2225 John Ruplinger
1503 Joel HF
1493 Isak Benedict
1412 Matthew J. Peterson
1170 Joshua Kenz
October 12 at 7:39pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley
October 12 at 7:41pm · Like · 3
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Nina Rachele Isak have you checked ebay for the typewriter? i was looking to purchase one myself and browsed through...there seemed to be a number in decent condition available.
October 12 at 7:44pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It is the contrast of "He was in the form of God and did not consider it robbery to be equal to God" to "He emptied himself, taking the form of a slave" And he did this on the Cross especially, which is why the Church reads this passage on the Exaltation of the Cross
Aquinas btw
Sed numquid habet eam perfecte? Sic, quia non rapinam, et cetera. Quod posset dupliciter intelligi. Uno modo de humanitate, et ita non intelligebat Paulus, quia hoc esset haereticum; quia hoc esset rapina, si referretur ad humanitatem. Ideo exponendum est alio modo, scilicet de divinitate, secundum quam dicitur de Christo. Repugnat etiam rationi aliter dicere, quia natura Dei non est receptibilis in materia; quod autem aliquis existens in natura aliqua magis vel minus participet eam, est ex materia, sed ibi non est; ergo dicendum est, quod arbitratus est non esse rapinam, scilicet se esse aequalem Deo, quia est in forma Dei, et cognoscit bene naturam suam. Et quia cognoscit hoc, ideo dicitur Io. V, 18: aequalem se Deo facit; sed hoc non fuit rapina: sicut quando Diabolus et homo volebat ei aequari. Is. XIV, 14: ero similis altissimo, etc., et Gen. c. III, 5: eritis sicut dii. Haec autem fuit rapina; ideo pro hac Christus venit satisfacere. Ps. LXVIII, 5: quae non rapui, tunc exsolvebam. Deinde cum dicit sed semetipsum, etc., humilitatem Christi commendat.
October 12 at 7:48pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "even Luther".... oh, you guys
October 12 at 7:53pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I pointed out the "Raub" in Luther way back there ... just sayin'. (And I would take the Luther Bibel over DR any day of the week.)
October 12 at 8:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger strong words by Aquinas.
October 12 at 8:05pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Kenz is obsessed though ... a real bee in his bonnet there.
October 12 at 8:06pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Bonaventure maintained (IIRC) that Christ would have become incarnate in any case, as the crown jewel (as it were) of the creation. Dionysius the Areopagite seems to agree (although he doesn't say so in so many words).
October 12 at 8:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Luther=babel. Indeed!
October 12 at 8:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Daniel O'Connell, I vaguely recall BXVI criticizing the Luther's translation of hypostasis in "faith is the substance of things unseen"
October 12 at 8:14pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell Yeah, that's not Luther's brightest moment as a translator.
October 12 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell "Es ist aber der Glaube eine gewisse Zuversicht des, das man hofft, und ein Nichtzweifeln an dem, das man nicht sieht."
October 12 at 8:17pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I am not obsessed. I just reject the heretical supporting translation. And it was Gottfried Thomasius I had in mind, not Balthasar.
If you were actually familiar with the issue over the passage, you wouldn't be saying the things you did. The "intellectual tradition" that renders it as a res rapienda, as opposed to res rapta is kenotic theology. There is no dispute over this. This is consistently explained by advocates of that interpretation as "He was NOT equal to God" because they reject traditional Christology. The argument that it cannot be res rapta, which is what the word normally means, is that it is too "violent" for the context. Advocates of this translation generally argue that the passage is saying the Divinity emptied itself, or limited itself, thus that the very person of Christ was made unequal with the Father, in the Incarnation.
The third possibility, the one in the NIV, argues that it is an idiom, and the passage reads "he did not regard being equal with God as something to use for his own advantage"
Which is less problematic orthodoxy wise, but hard to justify, but unlike res rapienda does have some support in other places where the word is used, but even that is arguable.
As I said before, this is just one passage among many. Agree or not (and you have offered no actual argument in disagreement other than appealing to very recent "tradition") it is absurd that after showing several reasons why to appreciate the DR, you would say "I see no reason why everyone does not prefer the RSV-CE" I gave reasons, agree or not they were reasons. Can you show me a single passage, leaving aside question of interpolations, where the RSV-CE is, in fact, superior to the DR in the New Testament? Can you give a single reason why the Masorete tradition should be preferred over the other manuscript traditions of the OT, that have traditionally been preferred by the Church?
If not, then you have given no argument. Argument requires reasons, not assertions.
October 12 at 8:19pm · Like · 1
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Daniel P. O'Connell Well, you clearly know this area better than I do. I don't have a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies. As you know, I'm a philosophy guy.
October 12 at 8:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Whoa how did I move up a slot?
October 12 at 8:23pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell And I'm not a subordinationist, in any case.
October 12 at 8:23pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell I don't think that "a thing to be grasped at" (in an English version) implies kenosis either ... that's my assertion. I don't care to argue it at this point.
October 12 at 8:25pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz To be clear, I don't think you are a heretic. This passage just tops the list of ones I see being misused and giving people trouble, so yeah it is high on my list.
October 12 at 8:25pm · Like · 2
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Daniel P. O'Connell If it did, and that version has been drilled into my little brain ever since I was a boy, then I would, of necessity, be a subordinationist. Which I am not.
October 12 at 8:26pm · Like
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Daniel P. O'Connell My attachment to "something to be grasped at" is probably 60% sentimental anyway ...
October 12 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Daniel, as one with maybe a Chuwawa in this fight, I am glad at your concession. [And I don't like Chiwawas.]
October 12 at 8:57pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley "7. We must return once more to the New Testament. In the eleventh chapter of the Letter to the Hebrews (v. 1) we find a kind of definition of faith which closely links this virtue with hope. Ever since the Reformation there has been a dispute among exegetes over the central word of this phrase, but today a way towards a common interpretation seems to be opening up once more. For the time being I shall leave this central word untranslated. The sentence therefore reads as follows: “Faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for; the proof of things not seen”. For the Fathers and for the theologians of the Middle Ages, it was clear that the Greek word hypostasis was to be rendered in Latin with the term substantia. The Latin translation of the text produced at the time of the early Church therefore reads: Est autem fides sperandarum substantia rerum, argumentum non apparentium—faith is the “substance” of things hoped for; the proof of things not seen. Saint Thomas Aquinas[4], using the terminology of the philosophical tradition to which he belonged, explains it as follows: faith is a habitus, that is, a stable disposition of the spirit, through which eternal life takes root in us and reason is led to consent to what it does not see. The concept of “substance” is therefore modified in the sense that through faith, in a tentative way, or as we might say “in embryo”—and thus according to the “substance”—there are already present in us the things that are hoped for: the whole, true life. And precisely because the thing itself is already present, this presence of what is to come also creates certainty: this “thing” which must come is not yet visible in the external world (it does not “appear”), but because of the fact that, as an initial and dynamic reality, we carry it within us, a certain perception of it has even now come into existence. To Luther, who was not particularly fond of the Letter to the Hebrews, the concept of “substance”, in the context of his view of faith, meant nothing. For this reason he understood the term hypostasis/substance not in the objective sense (of a reality present within us), but in the subjective sense, as an expression of an interior attitude, and so, naturally, he also had to understand the term argumentum as a disposition of the subject. In the twentieth century this interpretation became prevalent—at least in Germany—in Catholic exegesis too, so that the ecumenical translation into German of the New Testament, approved by the Bishops, reads as follows: Glaube aber ist: Feststehen in dem, was man erhofft, Überzeugtsein von dem, was man nicht sieht (faith is: standing firm in what one hopes, being convinced of what one does not see). This in itself is not incorrect, but it is not the meaning of the text, because the Greek term used (elenchos) does not have the subjective sense of “conviction” but the objective sense of “proof”. Rightly, therefore, recent Prot- estant exegesis has arrived at a different interpretation: “Yet there can be no question but that this classical Protestant understanding is untenable”[5]. Faith is not merely a personal reaching out towards things to come that are still totally absent: it gives us something. It gives us even now something of the reality we are waiting for, and this present reality constitutes for us a “proof” of the things that are still unseen. Faith draws the future into the present, so that it is no longer simply a “not yet”. The fact that this future exists changes the present; the present is touched by the future reality, and thus the things of the future spill over into those of the present and those of the present into those of the future."
October 12 at 8:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley The passage from Spe Salvi I recalled
October 12 at 8:33pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have a slight problem with the data: there's a gap where I only have relative dating . . . which, due to certain assumptions I made, means that the last two days or so are skewed upwards.
October 12 at 8:39pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz There is also my push back against the exaggerated status many Catholics, and many at TAC gave the RSVCE. And none of its strongest proponents were all that familiar with the issues involved...my tutor didn't like that I brought the DR to class and would argue with me against using a translation of a translation....I actually would read the RSVCE and NAB before class, but bring the DR precisely as an alternate reference. When I did investigate differences, well you see the results.
If they treated it for what it was, a less literal, more dynamic bible, that retains traditional style language for God, which certainly has merit, I wouldn't bash it so hard.
October 12 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Here's the final version, with the gap corrected as best I can
October 12 at 9:26pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I do have a retraction to make
1 Thess 4:3 ff
This is the will of God, your holiness: that you refrain from immorality, that each of you know how to acquire a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion as do the Gentiles who do not know God; (NABRE)
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; (RSV)
But
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; (RSVCE )
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that you should abstain from fornication; That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour: Not in the passion of lust, like the Gentiles that know not God: (DR)
I said the former were heretical protestants having their way....well I need to retract that. Aquinas interprets vessel as wife, and there is other support for that.
Lectio in Thess
Again, he first teaches to avoid lust in regard to one not his own; secondly, in regard to his own wife (4:4). He says, therefore, that you should abstain from fornication, for it is God’s will to abstain from fornication ,therefore it is a mortal sin, for it is against the commandment and the will of God. Take heed to keep thyself, my son, from all fornication (Tob. 4:13). But also with regard to your wife, abstain honorably; That every one of you should know to possess his vessel, that is his wife, in sanctification, ceasing for a time, and in honor, not in the passion of desire, that, namely passion should dominate; like the Gentiles, for it belongs to the gentiles to seek after present enjoyments, rather than those of the future life. In sanctification and honor, because this is the due use of marriage, since it is for the good of offspring or for rendering the debt; and so it can be be without sin. But sometimes there is venial sin, if concupiscence is not carried out beyond the limits of marriage, namely, whenever, although having concupiscence, a person does not yield to it except with his own wife. But when this takes place outside the bonds of marriage, a mortal sin follows; and this happens when, even if she were not his wife, he would still yield [to concupiscence], and would willingly with another woman. Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge. (Heb. 13:4). Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered. (I Pet. 3:7).
.....
The real problem is taking vessel as wife and also changing the verb. Or rather, the verb has many meanings, everything from possess to acquire to have mastery over, to [evils] in store,
Its meaning is a bit different in the aorist then say the perfect. In past tenses, LSJ gives it as "to possess" It is, however, similar to cognoscere. Cognosco means I learn, Cognovi means I know ("I learnt"= I know). But like cognoscere, the meaning of it in the past tenses gets transferred sometimes to the present (an example with this verb ktasthai, is in Luke 18:12)
So the translation is more defensible than I first thought, but still plenty contentious. While Aquinas and some Fathers do read vessel as wife, the Vulgata still translates it as vessel. It doesn't interpret that word. The problem really then is the verb. An argument in favor of Jerome (possidere) and possess in English, is that it is commonly used, in present tense, when referring to a personal object (a slave, husband, mistress) to mean "possess, mastery over" Or even wife of, as using the verb to say I have him as husband. If vessel is wife, then all the more so, and because of the context, which seems to be controlling the passions, not giving into lust, possess/control etc is easier to justify. But the translation, as even the NABRE sadly has, is not as stupidly biased as I originally thought.
October 12 at 9:30pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz I should also concede one passage (the only one I have found frankly) where the DR is clearly wrong and the RSV CE is right
In James 1:13 the NAB has
No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.
The RSV-CE
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
The Douay Rheims
Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.
In some sense the DR makes greater sense to me. But the Vulgate is
Nemo cum tentatur, dicat quoniam a Deo tentatur: Deus enim intentator malorum est: ipse autem neminem tentat. (Clementina Vulgata)
And the Greek
μηδεὶς πειραζόμενος λεγέτω ὅτι ἀπὸ θεοῦ πειράζομαι· ὁ γὰρ θεὸς ἀπείραστός ἐστιν κακῶν, πειράζει δὲ αὐτὸς οὐδένα. (Nestle Aland 28)
Now this is what the Big Scott (Lidell-Scott-Jones) has for it
ἀπείραστος , ον,
A. incapable of being tempted, “κακῶν” Ep.Jac.1.13.
II. without experience, “τῶν ἀβουλήτων” Alciphr.3.37.
III. not experienced, Gal.13.459; untried, “τέχνη” Phld.Rh.1.45 S.
The Vulgata does have intemptator which also means "one who is not tempted, tried; untemptable" from intemptatus which mean untested, untried. The Douay translators, and Challoner in his revision, missed this and since the word intemptator is basically a Jerome neologism, and intemptatus is rare, made a reasonable but wrong guess.
I guess what I am saying is we should all learn Latin, Greek and Hebrew, take the Vulgate, Nestle Aland, Septuagint and the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, and forget English translations!
October 12 at 9:35pm · Like
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Edward Langley Joshua Kenz, isn't it the case, though, that the Vulgate is officially "sufficient" regardless of it's accuracy wrt. the original texts?
October 12 at 9:39pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Officially free from errors in faith and morals, yes. Sufficient, sufficient for what? For salvation? One can be saved without reading the bible....for theology...well maybe for 99% of theology. But I do think alternate recensions help with some areas
October 12 at 9:41pm · Like
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Edward Langley What I mean, I think, is that it's the only text the ordinary Catholic needs to concern himself about (or something like that).
October 12 at 9:43pm · Like
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Edward Langley At the very least, it seems that the Vulgate is the "edition of the Church", (although perhaps the Septuagint has a similar status).
October 12 at 9:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I agree with that
October 12 at 9:44pm · Like
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Edward Langley The follow up question, to me, is whether the Vulgata or the Nova Vulgata is the text that was so promulgated.
October 12 at 9:45pm · Like
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Edward Langley As a side note, it seems to me that the major fault of the "Toronto school" is that they take the qualities by which one is a good text editor to be the qualities by which one is a good philosopher.
October 12 at 9:48pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger intemptator = one who does not tempt [what is the Greek transliterated?]. In my book at least. Discuss.
October 12 at 9:52pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Thus, for example, certain people have told me that Fr. Gauthier understood the commentary on the Ethics better than anyone else has or will, because he had the fullest knowledge of the sources, etc.
October 12 at 9:49pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz The pre-critical Vulgate, was so proclaimed at Trent. The editing of it after Trent was first the Sixtine and then the Clementine Vulgate, which were published after Trent, but by its order
October 12 at 9:49pm · Like
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Edward Langley However, after completing his edition of the De Anima commentary, he pronounced something like "the De Anima is just dead science"
October 12 at 9:50pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well look at Fr. Eschmann versus De Koninck. The former did the critical work for PIMS on On Kingship, but didn't understand it well
October 12 at 9:51pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz For that matter, you will note my examples have at least some import for the meaning of the passages. Some of the debates I have heard, especially over Aquinas manuscripts, had little or no value for understanding the text.
October 12 at 9:53pm · Unlike · 1
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Joshua Kenz John Ruplinger, what is the basis for your book? Intemptatus means untried, not tempted. So I take intemptator to mean "one who does not tempt" And if that is what it means, then it is an accurate translation of the Greek.
You would read the Vulgate as saying. "Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man."
October 12 at 9:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger What?
October 12 at 10:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you just translated the contrary of DR. And the Greek is : @ / ,: on my phone.
October 12 at 10:03pm · Like
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John Ruplinger intemptator malorum = nontemptor of evils. That is the DR.
October 12 at 10:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I am confused.
October 12 at 10:05pm · Like
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John Ruplinger you translated intemptator as one who is not tempted AND as one who does not tempt. I agree with the DR. And you seem to at times too.
October 12 at 10:55pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz You originally said intemptator= tempter
The Greek word
ἀπείραστος , ον,
A. incapable of being tempted, “κακῶν” Ep.Jac.1.13.
II. without experience, “τῶν ἀβουλήτων” Alciphr.3.37.
III. not experienced, Gal.13.459; untried, “τέχνη” Phld.Rh.1.45 S.
apeirastos, -on
Intemptator is a Jerome neologism. Originally I thought you were following that fool, Fr. Knox, in his stupid translation of this verse (and his ridiculous claim that it can b translated no other way). But intemptatus does mean "not tried, not tempted" -or generally is the ending making it an "act-or" So I take it as "the one who is not tempted" I am using the Greek to interpret Jerome's intent here. I am not aware of any other place the term is used, but I will look
October 12 at 10:15pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz How is that for inflammatory? Fr. Knox's translation of the Vulgate is AWFUL. And bizarre
October 12 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz BTW, it should be intentator...it gets changed in intemptator elsewhere. Tentator does mean tempter, so intentator can be read as "non-tempter" But the verse is redundant, and the point was the accuracy vis a vis Greek. I think the other reading, intemptator may have been a correction?
October 12 at 10:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Now it makes sense. I couldn't read the Greek. (Apeirastos is passive and my weak Greek translates "inexperienced" or "inexpert". Intemtor or intemptator is active (and cannot, grammatically, mean one who is tempted as you claim and I never did). But you not I caused the confusion. I didn't say what you say I said.)
October 12 at 10:59pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Here's a pie chart that counts likes rather than raw posts.
Edward Langley's photo.
October 12 at 10:49pm · Like · 8
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Max Summe Likes given or received?
October 12 at 10:51pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante dammit Edward you keep dividing me in two to wreck my score
October 12 at 10:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Joshua still has highest word count (without doubt if we discount syllaphorisms and repetitive posts.)
October 12 at 11:03pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Edward what Max wants to know is who is the most popular poster in TNET?
October 12 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger popular per hous pollous . . . . or . . . .
October 12 at 11:24pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger kata aristous
October 12 at 11:13pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley
Edward Langley's photo.
October 12 at 11:11pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Jehoshafat, then don't change your pseudonym.
October 12 at 11:11pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley That last pie, was corrected per Jehoshaphat Escalante's complaint and is weighted in the following fashion: each comment counts for 1 + the number of likes it received.
October 12 at 11:12pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante What if neither is a pseudonym!
October 12 at 11:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger be glad you have a cool but rare name. Ammonites et Moabites delendi sunt.
October 12 at 11:37pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley Rank by post count (likes per post) -- weighted post count (likes per post):
1. Michael Beitia (2.21) -- Michael Beitia (2.21)
2. Edward Langley (1.84) -- Edward Langley (1.84)
3. Samantha Cohoe (1.89) -- Samantha Cohoe (1.89)
4. Daniel Lendman (1.86) -- Daniel Lendman (1.86)
5. Scott Weinberg (1.17) -- Matthew J. Peterson (2.88)
6. John Ruplinger (1.5) -- Joel HF (2.45)
7. Joel HF(2.45) -- John Ruplinger (1.5)
8. Isak Benedict (2.2) -- Isak Benedict (2.2)
9. Matthew J. Peterson (2.88) -- Joshua Kenz (2.72)
10. Joshua Kenz (2.72) -- Scott Weinberg (1.17)
October 12 at 11:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Struggling to understand that data completely, but it looks like Matthew has the highest likes per post count on TNET!
October 12 at 11:28pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley This here is likes per post of people with more than 500 posts
Edward Langley's photo.
October 12 at 11:34pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley This here is likes per post of people with more than 100 posts
Edward Langley's photo.
October 12 at 11:33pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Here it is, people with more than 20 posts
Edward Langley's photo.
October 12 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I have mixed feelings about my involvement, or lack thereof
October 12 at 11:45pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (note, some of the names are incomplete, because my program has to guess where the name ends, and the guessing feature I wrote isn't very intelligent)
October 12 at 11:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I appreciate that the Great Thread rests over the weekend, and takes a more leisurely pace.
October 12 at 11:49pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley An interesting result from these graphs: John Ashman's posts are liked less frequently than Scott Weinbergs.
October 12 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Also, for all his claims about being a troll, Michael Beitia is moderately well liked.
October 12 at 11:52pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley #tNETstatisticsgnosis
October 12 at 11:52pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict http://www.visualnews.com/.../doesnt-get-cooler.../
It Doesn't Get Cooler than Motorcycle Chariots
Motorcycles have been called “Iron Steeds” for a long...
VISUALNEWS.COM
October 12 at 11:55pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Idea for TNET's 100,000th comment party^
October 12 at 11:55pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Gotta say though that the liking is a bit on the light side. Trolls aside, the posts are decent to great. And some great humor. I much appreciate the conversation. I have missed it a few years now.
October 13 at 12:02am · Unlike · 3
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Edward Langley Yeah, obviously there is nothing "rigorous" about my graphs: for one thing, they only measure easily quantifiable data.
October 13 at 12:04am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger And I only "like" comments I agree with especially or are particularly witty. . . .as a general rule. But I like many comments I don't hit "like" on.
October 13 at 12:05am · Like · 2
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Peter Nuar In honor of Columbus Day, I propose tNet be recognized as a new territory.
October 13 at 12:06am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Yeah, liking seems to mean many things to many people: I fluctuate between only liking comments I agree with that are well-put and just simply liking well-put comments.
October 13 at 12:06am · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Then there's this:
Edward Langley's photo.
October 13 at 12:39am · Like · 4
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Edward Langley Also, Jason Van Boom hasn't been around recently.
October 13 at 12:39am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict That is so cool!
October 13 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict How exactly does one celebrate Columbus Day? Walk into a stranger's house and loudly declare "This is mine now?"
October 13 at 12:48am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger tNET is mine (now that the other trolls are blocked or gone)!!!
October 13 at 1:05am · Like
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Isak Benedict Did we finally get rid of Scoot? Why is tNET yours?
October 13 at 1:06am · Like
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John Ruplinger see your last post.
October 13 at 1:08am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Come again?
October 13 at 1:08am · Like
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Isak Benedict The whole point is that someone else is already there. You're not taking empty territory.
October 13 at 1:09am · Like
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John Ruplinger with all the trolling, I have always envisioned THE thread as a troll cave . . . .
October 13 at 1:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict What trolling?
October 13 at 1:11am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger but you didn't understand your own post.
October 13 at 1:11am · Like
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Isak Benedict My interlocutor's poor grammar might have slightly confused me.
October 13 at 1:12am · Like
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John Ruplinger It's not empty territory, but trollisimus is gone. We need trollissimus secundus or maximus as I prefer to be called.
October 13 at 1:15am · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKeWh6qACJo
They have a Cave Troll
The originally casted cave troll. She was deemed too horrifying for a young audience.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 1:18am · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger trolls ain't grammifiers. Its in the "all you need to know to be a a troll DIY: in 13 steps".
October 13 at 1:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Claim: We should love not only God and Christ in His sacred humanity more than ourselves, but the Blessed Virgin Mary as well, all as common goods. And, in the order of spiritual goods love no one else more than ourselves besides these.
Discuss
October 13 at 1:32am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger pretty much, Joshua.
October 13 at 1:31am · Like
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Joshua Kenz You don't find the ranking of Mary there, but no other saint, to be striking? Or are you already familiar with this idea and so no longer shocked?
October 13 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger No earthly woman's love, not mother's, wife's, daughter's, has more claim to true devotion.
October 13 at 1:36am · Like
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John Ruplinger God more loves Our Lady than all heaven's court combined and by her is more pleased. Amazing, no? (Cf. Aquinas, de Montfort, Liguori, et multi alii)
October 13 at 2:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Through Her and at Her will all graces flow.
October 13 at 1:59am · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Mediatrix of the God-Man Mediator, Coredemptrix with our Redeemer.
October 13 at 2:20am · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Blessed be her Immaculate Conception.
October 13 at 2:05am · Like
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John Ruplinger Blessed be her glorious Assumption.
October 13 at 2:06am · Like
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John Ruplinger Blessed be the name of Mary, MOST holy. [This at benediction and in reparation for blasphemy against Our Lord Jesus Christ.]
October 13 at 2:19am · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley There is also an update of the offline and searchable TNET available
October 13 at 2:50am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Where is this found, Edward?
October 13 at 3:05am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict 1:08 AM and still grading. I would welcome a swift death.
October 13 at 4:09am · Unlike · 8
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Daniel Lendman Ah, grading.
October 13 at 5:54am · Like
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Daniel Lendman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fn_vAhu_Lw
Mr. D
Comedian Gerry Dee stars as Mr. D, Mondays at 8 p.m./8:30 NT on CBC, premiering January 9.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 5:54am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you like me! you really like me!
October 13 at 7:21am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia and as far as weighted post count, I think it gauche to like one's own post, but I know others that do so. when we're talking between 2 and 3 likes per comment, self-liking can seriously skew the numbers.
October 13 at 8:04am · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia ^see^
October 13 at 8:05am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I'll go on the record right now to the effect that I will "like" any comment that uses the word "gauche" properly.
October 13 at 8:15am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'l go on record saying that I will like any post with any reference to myself. new thesis title: "Narcissism and the Like: type what they want to see."
October 13 at 8:17am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going to stop saying uncatholic things to up my like ratio. Also, I'm not liking your posts anymore Michael. I feel threatened by your popularity.
October 13 at 8:22am · Unlike · 9
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Michael Beitia that's never been an issue for me.....
(edit: see, I had to like your comment. you mentioned me)
October 13 at 8:25am · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond "Self-referential liking: Walking the Line between Gauche and Giddy."
October 13 at 8:25am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Either that Samantha, or you could take the Pater approach and only comment rarely and have something pithy and intelligent to say.
October 13 at 8:29am · Like · 3
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Annette FitzGerald I like that approach.
October 13 at 8:32am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I see what you did there.
October 13 at 8:36am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I have the urge to grade all comments...
October 13 at 8:38am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia If I don't like a comment, take that as a strict judgement of the individual's (lack of) self-worth. My non-liking speaks judgmental volumes.
October 13 at 8:39am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I can see your autobiography now - "Prejudiced Against the Gauche - the Life and Times of Michael Beitia"
October 13 at 8:40am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #gauchegnosis
October 13 at 8:40am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia oh, I will also like any comment with the hashtag gnosis
#Beitiangnosis
October 13 at 8:42am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, if I took that approach I would lose my third place standing to big angry.
October 13 at 8:50am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia that's right. Some of us with less valuable things to say have to just flock shoot ......
October 13 at 8:52am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe By the way, it was very hard for me not to like your judgment of self-worth post, Michael, but I stayed strong.
October 13 at 9:03am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Man, tNET is really boring for me if I can't say unCatholic things. Michael.
October 13 at 9:04am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I'm not worried about you catching me in popularity. I'll like your posts so long as you're not saying something terrible about Jane Austen....
October 13 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Ha, that's just because you don't realize how many of your likes have come from me, Michael. As long as you're not saying something terrible about Jane Austen, of course
October 13 at 9:13am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia are you intentionally trying to strain my patience? On one hand, I like everything that mentions me (oh vanity), but on the other I hate self-liking. . . I may have to only like half of these comments.
October 13 at 9:14am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like Edward's numbers because it gives us a chance to reflect on the meta-tNET. . . tNET needs more reflection and less bombasts.
(joke)
October 13 at 9:16am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I might have to share with you guys all the ways 3 sections of 10th graders can misspell "leprosy."
October 13 at 9:20am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I do like self-referential comments. This comment has eleven words.
October 13 at 9:21am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The following sentence is false.
October 13 at 9:22am · Like
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Isak Benedict The previous sentence is true.
October 13 at 9:22am · Like
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Michael Beitia Sets that are not contained in themselves are normal (triangles, the set of all triangles is not a triangle)
Sets that do contain themselves are abnormal.
Is the set of all normal sets normal?
October 13 at 9:25am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Something pithy and intelligent: http://youtu.be/H4wVqDf1xks
(via Benedict Maria Waldstein)
Дарт Вейдер маски сброшены
Кандидат в народные депутаты от Интернет Партии Украины Дарт Вэйдер снял маску. http://vader.com.ua
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 9:36am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund So I'm back from Medjugorje. Lots of thoughts.
October 13 at 9:39am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Here we go: leperce, leporosey, leporacy, leperocy, leopracy, lepracy, lepersi, leaparsy, leporsy, lepeasie, leprecy, lepurciae, leaporsy, leoparsey, leoporsea, leapercy, lepordce, leprazi, lepersy, leaprsea, leperacy, leaporcy, leperse, leperosy, lepardsy, lepercy, leopardce, lepersea, lepersiae, lepricy, lepearce, leaper, leporsy, and - my personal favorite - leopardey.
October 13 at 9:41am · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict Out of about 90 students, only two of them spelled it right.
October 13 at 9:41am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict One kid wrote and scratched out five variations before simply writing "he was a leper." Bravo.
October 13 at 9:41am · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia Medjugorje? wasn't that suppressed by the local bishops
October 13 at 9:46am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Not exactly suppressed. Here is the statement:
«The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese (Mostar), the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje.
On the basis of the investigations, so far it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.
However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church.
For this purpose, the bishops will issue especially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje.
In Zadar April 10, 1991
The Bishops of Yugoslavia»
October 13 at 9:53am · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund The "suitable liturgical-pastoral directives" were issued, and I can confirm that the parish of Medjugorje follows them faithfully.
October 13 at 9:53am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I was of two minds about the whole thing before going. On the one hand the objections mentioned above by John Ruplinger and Joshua Kenz seemed to have a lot of force, but on the other hand I had met many people who were converted through trips to Medjugorje. Now, having seen it for myself, I'm still of two minds, but incline slightly more toward a favorable view...
October 13 at 10:11am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia maybe this puts me on the wrong side of Catholicism, but I tend to look at private revelation (read: any Marian apparition, but not limited to) as "a wicked and adulterous generation seeking after signs". I have great reservations with regards to private revelation.
October 13 at 9:59am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Had to break my resolution for that one.
October 13 at 10:01am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund The Church has "reservations" about private revelations. Nothing wrong with reservations.
October 13 at 10:03am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund ...as long as they are the right reservations.
October 13 at 10:03am · Like · 3
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Joel HF I'm confused at the likes per post count stats. Why isn't it ranked by number with the highest numbers on top? And why are the numbers posted twice? And why am I and Ruplinger split across two?
October 13 at 10:13am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia of course I submit to the authority of the Church, I'm just glad that the Church does not require assent with regard to private revelation.
October 13 at 10:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, those are two different top tens. The left is comments+likes
October 13 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Maybe it is because I was born a WASP, but the co-redemtrix thing doesn't make sense to me, and weirds me out a little bit.
October 13 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Joel HF What's the right? Langley, posted the same description for both left and right--or am I misreading?
October 13 at 10:15am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia he did. but that isn't what he meant. I think the right is comments simply. since you average 2.whatever likes per comment, you jump up the top ten rankings
October 13 at 10:16am · Like
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Joel HF BTW, I've got your back on the inflammatory protestant stuff, Samantha.
October 13 at 10:20am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Is there such thing as "suspension of good taste" when praying with people who use guitar music, analogous to suspension of disbelief at a play?
October 13 at 10:25am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Isn't a big part of the problem with Medjugorje very real and officially recognized and investigated scandals?
October 13 at 10:25am · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia almost up there with Mars Hill, right?
October 13 at 10:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I like this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../barack-obama-legacy_n...
Remember The Fresh Promise Of Barack Obama? What Happened To That Guy?
WASHINGTON -- While traveling recently, I’ve been...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
October 13 at 10:27am · Like
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Joel HF BTW, the synod just condemned Jesus for his unpastoral approach with the woman at the well.
October 13 at 10:28am · Like · 7
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Joel HF LOL, JK, everything is fine!!!
October 13 at 10:29am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/.../pope_benedict.../
Pope Benedict laicizes priest connected to alleged Medjugorje apparitions
Pope Benedict XVI has approved the laicization of Fr....
CATHOLICNEWSAGENCY.COM
October 13 at 10:30am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Matthew there have been scandals involving proponents of Medjugorje, but the parish itself very faithfully observes canon law, and the directives of the local bishop.
October 13 at 10:52am · Edited · Like · 2
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John Ashman All revelatioins must be approved by the bureaucracy!
October 13 at 10:31am · Like
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Pater Edmund This Ukrainian political party is awesome: http://vader.com.ua/programma
Предвыборная программа кандидата на пост мэра Киева Дарта Вейдера
Передвиборна програма кандидата на пост...
VADER.COM.UA
October 13 at 10:44am · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson Pater, to answer your question: If there is such a suspension, I've never been able to bring myself to do it, on grounds of both aesthetics and conscience.
October 13 at 10:56am · Like
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John Ashman He's got a better platform than Obama. I want free flowers and a new computer....8 years from now!
October 13 at 10:57am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Guitars are the instrument of the devil. And fiddles. Anything with a string, really.
October 13 at 10:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe For real, though, what's happening with the synod? I'd check the news, but, you know. The news.
October 13 at 11:08am · Like
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Sean Robertson This is the, um, thing that was produced from the first week:
http://press.vatican.va/.../2014/10/13/0751/03037.html
Synod14 - Eleventh General Assembly: "Relatio post disceptationem" of the...
PRESS.VATICAN.VA
October 13 at 11:09am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson I'd be interested to hear TNET's take on it.
October 13 at 11:24am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe reading
October 13 at 11:15am · Like
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Michael Beitia uh... what?
is there a clear teaching here?
October 13 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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John Ashman I like the simplicity of stonings.
October 13 at 11:15am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe wtf is this "gradualness" stuff?
October 13 at 11:16am · Like · 4
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John Ashman Sinner ^^^^
October 13 at 11:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, why are your down on Mary being co-redemptrix?
October 13 at 11:22am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, did you read the ..... document? Is there anything in there but fluff?
October 13 at 11:23am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe << Realizing the need, therefore, for spiritual discernment with regard to cohabitation, civil marriages and divorced and remarried persons, it is the task of the Church to recognize those seeds of the Word that have spread beyond its visible and sacramental boundaries. Following the expansive gaze of Christ, whose light illuminates every man (cf. Jn 1,9; cf. Gaudium et Spes, 22), the Church turns respectfully to those who participate in her life in an incomplete and imperfect way, appreciating the positive values they contain rather than their limitations and shortcomings.>>
October 13 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ?????
October 13 at 11:23am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe "Divorce and cohabitation aren't all bad"-- the synod
October 13 at 11:24am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Pater Edmund, there is a lot of confusion about Medja. It's been a while since I looked into it but the last time I was amazed by the confusion. I knew quite a few people who were heavily into it, which is the only reason I took interest. As regards the laicized priest, he was not just any priest, but the director of the so called seers, and his actions were utterly scandalous. But the bishops of Mostar have been very clear that the phenomena has caused schism and scandal, and produced 30 years of disobedience, including false confessions by laicicized priests, fake sacraments by pseudobishops, and bloody disputes in the region. Here's an old official document. (IMO the reason the condemnation has not been issued is because a number of prelates of high rank strongly support the "apparition"). But burned retinas, banal "messages" that have been changed, rich seers, defrocked priests, and the consistent disapproval of the local ordinary should make anyone hesitate and really look hard at the bishop's words himself. I'm sorry I can't find better than this at this time.
http://medjugorjedocuments.blogspot.com/.../september-26...
Official Documents on Medjugorje and FAQS: September 26, 2009: In Context...
MEDJUGORJEDOCUMENTS.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY DIANE KORZENIEWSKI
October 13 at 11:41am · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil So, maybe I am wrong about this, but my impression about how the synod works is that the bishops are broken up into sub-groups by language, and they each write up something after discussion period, and then all their write-ups are submitted to a bishop overseeing the whole thing, and then he writes up a summary. Which I guess is what Sean Robertson linked to?
October 13 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Is that correct?
October 13 at 11:27am · Like
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Michael Beitia that is what I read
October 13 at 11:28am · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Oh, and the jumping-off point for discussion is a document called an "instrumentum laboris" which was written by...someone at the Vatican.
October 13 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Color me somewhat dubious about any sort of intelligible consensus coming out of this process.
October 13 at 11:32am · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Also, any controversy about Vatican II aside, it's worth noting that everyone was speaking the same language.
October 13 at 11:33am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is a worthwhile statement: "For this reason, what is required is a missionary conversion: it is necessary not to stop at an announcement that is merely theoretical and has nothing to do with people’s real problems. It must not be forgotten that the crisis of faith has led to a crisis in matrimony and the family and, as a result, the transmission of faith from parents to children has often been interrupted. Confronted by a strong faith, the imposition of certain cultural perspectives that weaken the family is of no importance."
October 13 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia consensus? there would have to BE something of substance to have a consensus
October 13 at 11:34am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson What I posted is a sort of "mid-term report", drafted by a few Synod fathers selected by the Pope. I believe now is the point where they break up into subgroups to discuss things. I think there will be another document at the end of the Synod.
October 13 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman This is stupid: a law of gradualness,
October 13 at 11:35am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia and self-contradictory. Gradualness admits of no law
October 13 at 11:35am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman There will be another Synod meeting later where the definitive document will be released.
October 13 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Also, this whole Synod is just a runup setting the stage for the bigger Synod next year, and is only meant to establish the "status quaestionis", not make concrete declarations of any kind.
October 13 at 11:36am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Meanwhile, I will be drafting a paper on the relationship between marriage and the sacraments of penance and Eucharist
October 13 at 11:36am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Not that anyone will listen to my paper...
October 13 at 11:36am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, so what is the status of this document thingy?
October 13 at 11:37am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just a, hey, here are some thoughts we've been having, sort of thing?
October 13 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Pretty much
October 13 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti My take on Synod doc: Houston we have a problem.
October 13 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia it points out many issues in the "modern family" but offers nothing.....yet
October 13 at 11:39am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron-- is that your summary of what the Bishops are saying, or your summary of how you feel about what the Bishops are saying?
October 13 at 11:41am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I do think it is more than fluff. But you are right that there are no solutions.
October 13 at 11:41am · Like
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Michael Beitia I hate the language of the modern Church. The documents don't just "spit it out" but talk in circles first.
October 13 at 11:42am · Like · 3
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John Ashman I'm still upset about this whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing. We should hate the sinner. Old school.
October 13 at 11:42am · Like
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Daniel Lendman One the expectations that I have is that a hard distinction will be made between civil marriages and natural marriages. This would pave the way for homosexual "married couples" and divorced in remarried couples to receive communion, as long as they maintained a strict observance of chastity.
October 13 at 11:45am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not that that I think this is a good idea...
October 13 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe <<This would not be a general possibility, but the fruit of a discernment applied on a case-by-case basis, according to a law of gradualness, that takes into consideration the distinction between state of sin, state of grace and the attenuating circumstances.>>
October 13 at 11:47am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe somebody explain the "law of gradualness" to me
October 13 at 11:47am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Either you repent, or you don't repent, right?
October 13 at 11:47am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia good luck
October 13 at 11:47am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Law of gradualness sounds like "make me chaste, but not yet"
October 13 at 11:47am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha Cohoe Vague statements are always a set-up. It doesn't matter what the doc actually says. See e.g. Second Vatican Council. The only thing that matters is what the Bishops think the document could say. I can think of ten Bishops off the top of my head who will interpret this doc . . . creatively.
October 13 at 11:47am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman The law of gradualness, prima facie, is nonsense. But the proposal I gave above might be an account of how it could be understood/applied.
October 13 at 11:49am · Like
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John Ashman "Working up the courage to repent"
October 13 at 11:50am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Daniel, that is interesting. It is completely unrelated to the intent of the document, but it's interesting.
October 13 at 11:55am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe "Sometimes, it's really hard to repent, and people don't want to do it, but still want to come to mass and pretend they're fine."
October 13 at 11:55am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe "How do we help them do that, while not completely making idiots out of ourselves?"
October 13 at 11:56am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha EXACTLY!!!!
October 13 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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John Ashman I go to church to make the semi-repentent seem redeemable. I'm a martyr for the semi-saved.
October 13 at 11:57am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti If you were divorced from a spouse who abandoned you, and you had been living chastely all this time, how pissed would you be this morning?
October 13 at 11:58am · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Here's the thing: I have been a Catholic my whole life. I have been to a lot of different churches for Sunday mass, and belonged to several different parishes in different parts of the United States. I don't remember ever hearing explicit condemnation of cohabitation, homosexual practices, or of remarried people receiving communion, from the pulpit in a normal diocesan parish. (To say nothing of birth control, which no one even hints about from the pulpit.) But I know lots of people who had a priest tell them that this or that moral issue was "between [them] and God". I have heard outright heretical sermons on how remarried people should feel free to receive communion. And whenever there's a wedding or funeral in my extended family, everybody goes up to receive communion, despite the fact that none of them are practicing Catholics. So honestly, where is this culture of condemnation?
October 13 at 11:59am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Pissed. Especially if my spouse had then remarried, and wanted to still be Catholic.
October 13 at 11:59am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Wait, so you're saying that being saved is all about the easiest path? Pretty sure if you're pissed, you're missing the point entirely.
October 13 at 11:59am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys need more culture of condemnation, if anything
October 13 at 12:00pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman "Going through the motions"
October 13 at 12:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think my evangelical churches do a better job of this, truthfully. I know of many cases of people having their church membership revoked for open, unrepentant sin. All the churches I've been to take that very seriously.
October 13 at 12:00pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Now, to be fair, there's a lot more waffling about divorce and remarriage in evangelical circles.
October 13 at 12:01pm · Like
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John Ashman If only Catholics would turn the Tea Party into an anti-gay, anti-immigrant group......oh, wait......already handled by outside forces.
October 13 at 12:01pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman I was first-married by a protestant lesbian minister. How cool is THAT!
It took a lot of work to get into the Catholic tent after that.
October 13 at 12:03pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Catherine, I guess it's just jarring to hear it said out loud.
October 13 at 12:03pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and birth control
October 13 at 12:03pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Well, yeah. Obviously.
October 13 at 12:06pm · Like
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John Ashman Catherine, the culture of condemnation is alive and well south of the border. Father Gabriel goes on regular tears about homosexuality, cohabitation and such. "Sweet Mother of Jesus!" I love it. Makes mass much more interesting.
October 13 at 12:08pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The twitter commentary on this is hilarious. It's almost as iff these Catholic writers have never set foot in a Catholic parish.
October 13 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Just made CNN....so you can guess which exact part was the topic.
October 13 at 12:27pm · Like
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John Ashman I think someone should check on Father Gabriel. Perhaps send an ambulance.
October 13 at 12:28pm · Like
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Jeff Neill How many people have left the church after a divorce, because they wanted to be in a relationship but did not think/try to pursue annulment?
October 13 at 12:35pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, lots.
October 13 at 12:39pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Happy Thanksgiving!
October 13 at 12:40pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau If I don't comment once in a while, I lose this thread.
October 13 at 12:41pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau People are giving this interim report too much weight. This is just a report of the discussions. No conclusions would be made at this point.
October 13 at 12:44pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Agreed. The final document will be much worse.
October 13 at 12:45pm · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm still hoping for a Humanae Vitae type of last minute save.
October 13 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau But it will bring with it a lot of discord, confusion and frustration none the less.
October 13 at 12:46pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Honest question: have you ever heard of someone pursuing an annulment and being turned down?
October 13 at 12:56pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia no
October 13 at 12:53pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I know two cases. But they were as clear as a blue sky in deepest summer.
October 13 at 12:54pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Springtime in the church: «In the same way the situation of the divorced who have remarried demands a careful discernment and an accompaniment full of respect, avoiding any language or behavior that might make them feel discriminated against. For the Christian community looking after them is not a weakening of its faith and its testimony to the indissolubility of marriage, but rather it expresses precisely its charity in its caring.»
October 13 at 12:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^translation?
October 13 at 12:56pm · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiryTUCtLNA
Springtime For Hitler - The Producers 2005
Springtime For Hitler - The Producers 2005
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 12:57pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng Per the question about interpreting the "law of gradualness," am I wrong in interpreting it as another formulation of Benedict's controversial (to the media) statements about "direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants," from his book Light of the World?
October 13 at 12:57pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I am a cynic. Here is some cynicism. Parishes need money. Bishops know this. Money is often found in irregular situations. How to get at that money? Regularize the situations. The theologians and middle-aged blogger ladies will explain it all away. I'm going to go take a shower.
October 13 at 12:58pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Translation for Michael Beitia: "Feelings, nothing more than feelings." If they feel they are being discriminated against, then they have been discriminated against.
October 13 at 1:00pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeffrey Bond So back off you hypocritical, sullen-faced, joyless moralizers and let them get to the communion rail without anyone feeling uncomfortable.
October 13 at 1:02pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti If my parish priest told the congregation that they must go to confession before receiving communion, the pews would be empty and the school would have to cancel the Parish carnival. It would simply not be tolerated. This document institutionalizes my priests decision to remain mum.
October 13 at 1:03pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm very glad I'm not a bishop. I have only the care of the souls in my household to be directly responsible for. (grammar be damned!)
October 13 at 1:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it is also one of the good things about being at a Tridentine Parish. This stuff doesn't come up
October 13 at 1:04pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think you need to examine your feelings, Michael Beitia. Aren't you being rather gauche?
October 13 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia maybe sinister
October 13 at 1:04pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng The issue with condemnations is that majority opinion holds that condemnations no longer spiritually strengthen the majority of the faithful the way they once did. Our culture automatically assumes that any kind of condemnation is merely representing the biases of the critic. Also, ultimately the Catholic Church not interested in membership as such. The goal is salvation of souls, and the assumption is that conversion is gradual for most people. That sets the tone for the agenda. Not that I agree with all of the above, but I do think there is an internal logic of the attitude reflected in this document.
October 13 at 1:10pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Adrw Lng: In answer to your earlier comment: If I remember Benedict's comments correctly, he said something like, someone with AIDS using a condom when having sex shows some concern for their partner? And this shows some kind of moral sense? Setting aside the desire to re-parse what Benedict said, I'm not sure if same "moral sense" comes up with all of the cases the synod is discussing. E.g., you have cohabiting couples who want to get married in a Catholic church and are annoyed and inconvenienced by the fact that the Church cares that they're cohabiting. In my experience, these people merely want to get married in a certain attractive building, and possibly care what their parents think about it. They aren't trying to become part of the parish.
October 13 at 1:12pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, Adrw Lng, I think you have accurately described the "logic" here. Note, however, that there is no problem with condemning condemnation.
October 13 at 1:13pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil And, AND, lots of cohabiting couples get married in Catholic churches, anyways, no problem. My current parish is one of very few I've seen that actually states in the bulletin that cohabiting couples will be expected to live separately during marriage prep.
October 13 at 1:13pm · Like
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John Ashman The interesting thing about going to a Mexican Church is that most people do NOT take communion. My wife only does if she's done confession and all that. Unlike in the US where it's a "right" to have communion.
October 13 at 1:14pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Catherine, I am involved with marriage prep at my parish and I at least in the parochial experience I have is that people are deeply confused and ignorant about the Church's teaching about cohabitation. It was not taught in the Catholic schools for decades (that is changing) and is in general not preached. But most of all, there is almost no expectations from parents about this, and most parents feel they are unable/unwilling to take a strong stand on this.
In spite of this, many of these couples want their marriage blessed by the Church and I think have a very deep seated (although misunderstood) desire for the sacraments. This is, I believe, a real opportunity for grace. I've only had a couple instances of truly cynical people who just want the pretty church. Those couples have been unwilling to complete other much easier aspects of marriage prep and have ended up going elsewhere.
October 13 at 1:23pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti Well, we have a terrific arrangement at my parish. There is a school full of nominally Catholic families. The priest condemns nobody, nobody comes to Mass except the old ladies and a few weirdos like me, and everyone's happy! Gradualism at work!
October 13 at 1:26pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil Adrw Lng Well, you are certainly much closer to the issue than I am, so thanks for sharing your experience. My more limited experience consists mostly of people scoffing about the Catholic Church's outmoded restrictions, or snickering about how they "got away" with having their wedding in a Catholic church despite cohabiting. It's actually nice to hear that some people actually care about being part of the Church. Maybe it's because you're dealing with sweet midwesterners!
October 13 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I think everyone involved in the process sees the real tension between the fact that couples can technically get married while cohabitating and in a state of sin, and the fact that being misinformed or ignorant about the nature of marriage can be grounds for invalid marriage. Personally, I err on being very frank about these moral issues when talking to couples, but also admitting to them that it is their responsibility to have an informed conscience.
October 13 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman The age old marketing balance between quality/exclusivity and market share.
October 13 at 1:28pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond "Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?" How does one accept and value that which is intrinsically disordered?
October 13 at 1:48pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman God really screwed up when he made gays. I guess everyone makes mistakes. Of course, one might consider the high percentage of gays within the upper echelons of Church when considering these documents and the slow shift going on.
October 13 at 1:56pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Quite apart from whatever position one takes on this question, there is a simple problem of logic here. If the Catholic Church's doctrine is that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, then how does one "accept and value" homosexuality without compromising Catholic doctrine? Is this the real question: "Are our communities capable of ignoring the law of non-contradiction?"
October 13 at 1:57pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Having a gimpy leg is inherently disordered. Being an alcoholic is inherently disordered. Being a prostitute is inherently disordered. Maybe they're finally figuring out that being gay isn't a choice.
The Catholic Church is a mess of contrdiction and always has been. The trick is in making the best of it and minimizing some of the contradictory elements in order to maintain a more valuable and useful message.
October 13 at 2:00pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley One answer to that question, Jeffrey, could be that homosexuality is, at least in part, the result of a certain material disposition in the person: I'd be interested to know if that disposition also makes certain kinds of virtuous action easier.
October 13 at 2:01pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng While I think the quote in question is aiming at charitable tolerance of individuals with a homosexual orientation, I don't understand how one would "value" this orientation as such. Nevertheless, here is an example of what "valuing" your disordered orientation would look like for a faithful Catholic:
http://www.firstthings.com/.../why-i-call-myself-a-gay...
Why I Call Myself A Gay Christian
Why would a Christian identify as gay? That was the question posed by many who read my previous piece...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 13 at 2:01pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman There was a shift from the idea that having sex should be ONLY for the purposes of conceiving a child to it's okay as long as you're OPEN to having a child.
October 13 at 2:04pm · Edited · Like
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John Ruplinger Whatever one thinks of Cura Personalis and its various implementations, this signals an acceptance of an unnatural "union" (not of persons striving for holiness and overcoming vice or trials aided by grace). But I am most troubled by the continued acceptance of unworthy reception of Our Lord which I have read compared to those who crucified Our Lord.
October 13 at 2:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Also, I imagine they meant to say "accept homosexuality and value the homosexual". I don't think anyone truly meant to say "value homosexuality". Though...gay pride.
October 13 at 2:07pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Note that the document, in asking the question about community acceptance of homosexuality, is careful not to make clear whether they are speaking about homosexual orientation alone or homosexual unions. Can a Catholic community accept and value someone who is homosexual but striving for holiness? Of course. Can a Catholic community accept and value the actual disordered orientation? No. Can then a Catholic community accept and value a homosexual union where the partners are acting upon their same-sex attraction? No. But the document leaves it open as a question.
October 13 at 2:10pm · Like · 5
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Adrw Lng That is a good distinction, but I have seen Catholics (as posted above) argue that homosexual orientation as such has value, and I can imagine that opinion may be lurking behind the ambiguous language
October 13 at 2:13pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond That way madness lies.
October 13 at 2:14pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger I refer to 52: "there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners." come again?
October 13 at 2:14pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig The problem is that 'homosexual orientation' implies many things... Is it the physical/genital inclination? The virtue of friendship? The willingness of sacrifice? The former two are good; the latter not so. The burden is on those who put forward that valuing a 'homosexual orientation' means something good while holding to orthodoxy.
October 13 at 2:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia also, if the value of the Eucharist is infinite, because it truly is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, then the decision on who "deserves" what changes a little bit.
October 13 at 2:15pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti When it comes to receiving communion unworthily, I talk to Catholics ALL THE TIME who are simply indifferent to the idea that they have to go to Mass each and every Sunday. They blithely receive communion whenever it is that they show up. No one says anything. The leader of our CCD program told us that the parents of the confirmation candidates staged a rebellion when they were told that their kids would need to go to Mass every Sunday during the class.
October 13 at 2:17pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia headdesk
October 13 at 2:19pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman Scientifically, there may be value in homosexuality to the community. They often bring different perspectives, different type of creativity, different experiences and have had marked positive benefits in many areas. There are studies now that show that being gay is increasingly likely in relation to higher birth order numbers. I have two gay family members that are both the youngest or much closer to youngest than oldest.
Plus, Leonardo da Vinci. 'Nuff said.
October 13 at 2:20pm · Like
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John Ashman Aaron, Americans want everything for free.
October 13 at 2:21pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng I've had both good and bad experiences teaching the precepts of the Church to my RE program, but on the whole it has been good and I think more RE families are coming to Church after the fact than before. Of course, every parish is different and it's a warzone out there
October 13 at 2:21pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The ambiguity as to whether the document is discussing individuals with same-sex attraction or homosexual unions is complicated by the second paragraph in this section of the document:
"The question of homosexuality leads to a serious reflection on how to elaborate realistic paths of affective growth and human and evangelical maturity integrating the sexual dimension: it appears therefore as an important educative challenge. The Church furthermore affirms that unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between man and woman. Nor is it acceptable that pressure be brought to bear on pastors or that international bodies make financial aid dependent on the introduction of regulations inspired by gender ideology."
This paragraph, even while seemingly affirming the Church's teaching on matrimony, makes clear that the writers do have in mind homosexual unions. These unions are not to be viewed as being on the same footing as matrimony, but they are apparently to be recognized as unions nonetheless. Are these unions that the Catholic community must now "accept and value"?
October 13 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Ambiguity is rarely unintentional. They need to give the earnest theologians and blogger ladies some wiggle room.
October 13 at 2:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I definitely get the sense that a lot of these bishops really, really with they could straight up change the relevant doctrines.
October 13 at 2:26pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Or, if not, then that they at least feel extremely apologetic about them.
October 13 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha, it's not like a bunch of these guys aren't already on the record about this stuff. We KNOW what some of the would do.
October 13 at 2:28pm · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond The language and ambiguity of the document certainly supports both your claims, Samantha Cohoe.
October 13 at 2:28pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh yeah? Interesting. I'm not up on my heretical bishops, I'm just going by how the document reads.
October 13 at 2:29pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Yes Jeffrey. I noticed that on the first read too. But more fundamentally this confirms identifying someone BY his sin, as Beitia long ago pointed out.
October 13 at 2:46pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Ambiguity is excellent for increasing discussion. That's why Plato is a great teacher... if you are to learn, you need to struggle finding the answer.
October 13 at 2:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What in particular did you notice, John?
October 13 at 2:30pm · Like
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John Ashman We disgregard a whole lot of the Old Testament.
October 13 at 2:30pm · Like
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John Ashman To avoid being ISIS.
October 13 at 2:30pm · Like
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John Ashman Ironically, Jews are even more progressive.
October 13 at 2:31pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Distinguishing unions from matrimony while affirming them. [It is ambiguous though.]
October 13 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. It looks very deliberate. I suspect they think they are very clever.
October 13 at 2:33pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman No one here is in denial about the high nunbers of homosexuals in the Church, right?
October 13 at 2:35pm · Like
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John Ashman And by that, I mean in the upper echelons and in the Vatican.
October 13 at 2:35pm · Like
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Joel HF The priest at the mass I went to last Sunday gave an excellent homily, more or less explicitly on the Synod. His sermon was a meditation on the St. Teresa of Avila prayer:
Let nothing disturb you,
Let nothing frighten you,
All things are passing away:
God never changes.
Patience obtains all things
Whoever has God lacks nothing;
God alone suffices.
October 13 at 2:38pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia ^Again, why I'm glad I'm not a bishop.
October 13 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "Drunks have gifts and qualities . . ." Kleptomaniacs have gifts and qualities too. Why is this disorder identifying? Porn addicts? Everyone else in the bark are just ordinary sinners I guess.
October 13 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I have found drunks to be especially gifted in certain respects. In vino veritas.
October 13 at 2:42pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Eh. Depends on the drunk.
October 13 at 2:42pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti Jeff, creating ambiguity is also useful in prolonging a discussion that is seemingly over if you don't like where the discussion ended. I'm just having a hard time analogizing some of these Cardinals to Plato. They come across more like used car salesmen than wise philosophers.
October 13 at 2:43pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Plato didn't use a whole lot of words to say nothing.
October 13 at 2:43pm · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Nor is prolonging a discussion ever a good in itself.
October 13 at 2:44pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Prolonging a discussion is often evidence of bad faith. See e.g Iranian nuclear negotiations.
October 13 at 2:46pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia e.g.: tNET
October 13 at 2:47pm · Like · 11
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Jeffrey Bond Touche.
October 13 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, my drunk comment was a reference to you, Michael. Go like it.
October 13 at 2:48pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Even Plato say that homosexuality is wrong.
October 13 at 2:53pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would also like to point out that I feel no obligation to be on topic when I post.
October 13 at 2:54pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Especially when I am away for a while.
October 13 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Rereading the first paragraph (50) and the last sentence (53), I am not seeing the ambiguity. We are being challenged to welcome AND "value" not just the person but the orientation. It's insidious and accusatory with a guilt trip for good measure: "but what of their innocent children?" God have mercy on them and strengthen our priests and prelates to withstand it.
October 13 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig (Whither/whence, Daniel? Perhaps, say, this way?)
October 13 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hey Samantha, I got 7 likes so far on my tNET comment. now you see why I'll always be more popular than you?
October 13 at 2:58pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Does John Ashman remind anyone else of Elihu from the book of Job?
October 13 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Some people will never like my comments because of the whole heretic thing.
October 13 at 3:00pm · Unlike · 8
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Samantha Cohoe So you have an unfair advantage, Michael.
October 13 at 3:00pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman There is an easy way to fix that Samantha Cohoe...
October 13 at 3:00pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman As long as you are willing to sacrifice your conscience for more likes on TNET.
October 13 at 3:01pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Tempting.
October 13 at 3:02pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I bet if I announced I was going to confession I'd get, like, 1000 likes.
October 13 at 3:02pm · Unlike · 9
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, the only thing I would be surprised about, with regards the synod, is if anyone is surprised about how bizarre the document is that they released today..
October 13 at 3:04pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I think your read is right, John Ruplinger, but there is intentional ambiguity nonetheless as will become clear when discussion erupts over what the document really means. It is classic double-speak: "We are affirming the traditional teaching on marriage which these unions cannot equal, but these unions (which we now explicitly recognize as something akin to marriage) are to be accepted and valued." And what you say about using the children is spot on.
October 13 at 3:04pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The is Snyodality folks.
October 13 at 3:04pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman It's messy.
October 13 at 3:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha, it's hard to get excited when you start bragging about evangelical churches being better at calling people out for their immorality than the Catholic church. Ouch.
October 13 at 3:05pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF That used to be the Catholic church's bread and butter. #nostalgiagnosis
October 13 at 3:05pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman By the way, Aaron. The point I made is at the heart of what that section of the document is about.
October 13 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe See, Michael? Seven likes already just for mentioning the possibility.
October 13 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson But as a percentage of the total protestant church as a whole...does anyone doubt it is the same as or less than the percentage of caller outers in total Catholic world?
October 13 at 3:06pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Make that 6 I unliked it
October 13 at 3:06pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Cheater
October 13 at 3:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The ole BALK-like maneuver
October 13 at 3:07pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman By the way, Samantha Cohoe, St. Cyril of Jerusalem says that if a man comes to Baptism for the sake of getting to know a woman, its okay.
October 13 at 3:07pm · Like
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Edward Langley Now everything will be skewed, because to post a statistic is to incentivize gaming the basis of that statistic.
October 13 at 3:07pm · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman #whystatisticsisnotascience
October 13 at 3:08pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel-- you mention this because?
October 13 at 3:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel:
#whystatisticsisnotasciencegnosis
October 13 at 3:08pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Only that, by extension, it wouldn't be blamable to go to confession, at first, if it is for the sake of likes on TNET... God understand imperfect contrition... or something like that.
October 13 at 3:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe You sound like the Synodal Bishops, Big Angry.
October 13 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond The Langley uncertainty principle: "One cannot post statistics without the act of posting altering them."
October 13 at 3:11pm · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Also, I think my thought about the relation between civil marriage and natural marriage and sacramental marriage did not get enough discussion on here.
October 13 at 3:11pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I still refuse to self-like
October 13 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^tNET cop
October 13 at 3:11pm · Like
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Edward Langley Hypothetically, is there anything wrong with a baptized non-Catholic going to Confession, presuming he knows what confession is?
October 13 at 3:11pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman #manofprinciplegonsis ^
October 13 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Edward, only if he intends to receive absolution.
October 13 at 3:12pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I think "self-like" is still a sin. But I'm not sure.
October 13 at 3:12pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman He can go and talk to the priest.
October 13 at 3:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm pretty sure going to Confession would be all I had to do to join the club again.
October 13 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You know, with the right resolutions and everything
October 13 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 2
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Edward Langley Yeah, I'm wondering about a born-Protestant.
October 13 at 3:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, someone finally got my horrid reference.....
October 13 at 3:14pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, if the Church no longer adheres to the idea that civil marriage must be equal with natural marriage, or more, then remarriage and even homosexual "marriage" becomes a less an issue.
October 13 at 3:14pm · Like
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Edward Langley It seems like his confessed sins would still be proper matter for absolution.
October 13 at 3:14pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Edward, you are talking about a never-been-Catholic protestant.
October 13 at 3:15pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeffrey Bond One does, upon converting, go to confession before being formally received into the Church. But in that case the intention of being in full communion is already present.
October 13 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Oh, and Michael Beitia your suspicion about Marian apparitions on the anniversary of the miracle of the sun is rather surprising.
October 13 at 3:15pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh? Why?
October 13 at 3:16pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman #nosenseofthecurrenttopicgnosis
October 13 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, it is just quite the contrast.
October 13 at 3:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley So lets build a hypothetical: suppose someone gets a deserved Theology Ph.D. at a good Catholic institution but is a member of the Lutheran Church since Baptism: If he decides that Catholicism is true, could he receive absolution in good conscience?
October 13 at 3:18pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman No.
October 13 at 3:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Why not?
October 13 at 3:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't understand your hypothetical. Wouldn't he convert?
October 13 at 3:18pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Confession is ordered to Eucharist.
October 13 at 3:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha Cohoe, my claim is that it seems like he could convert without going through an "official" process.
October 13 at 3:19pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman One must be initiated into the mysteries.
October 13 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #mysterygnosis
October 13 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley But that "intitiation" is Baptism, Daniel.
October 13 at 3:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is not merely an intellectual formation.
October 13 at 3:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is part of the initiation, Edward.
October 13 at 3:20pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The three sacraments of initiation, as you know, are Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist.
October 13 at 3:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley It's sufficient for children.
October 13 at 3:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There are some fun special masses you go to as a convert. Exorcisms and such.
October 13 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Without Eucharist, confession does not make sense.
October 13 at 3:22pm · Like
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Edward Langley Sure, but Baptism is sufficient to receive Confession and the Eucharist.
October 13 at 3:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia were you Baptized protestant, Samantha?
October 13 at 3:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman So, if he were to receive Eucharist after confession, then it would not be a problem.
October 13 at 3:22pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, yes. In the Jordan River no less.
October 13 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman, the question is, is something like RCIA necessary for conversion? Or can you convert without any official outward act.
October 13 at 3:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The only thing is that he ought to "officially" belong to the Church before he receives Eucharist.
October 13 at 3:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wasn't baptized until I was an adult. It makes the whole conversion thing easier. Didn't have to make a general confession
October 13 at 3:23pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That general confession was pretty rough.
October 13 at 3:24pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman RCIA, as such, is of course not necessary. But one ought to receive the approval of a priest.
October 13 at 3:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And get those exorcisms.
October 13 at 3:24pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm pretty sure many more people than the crazy few who post here frequently are still tNETters by desire.
October 13 at 3:24pm · Unlike · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson In their hearts
October 13 at 3:24pm · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia well, I got those too
October 13 at 3:24pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Daniel, is what you're talking about just the theoretical side of the Church "getting out of the civil marriage business?"
http://www.firstthings.com/.../george-weigel-catholic.../
George Weigel: Catholic Church Must Consider Getting out of Civil Marriage...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 13 at 3:25pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And declare the intention.
October 13 at 3:25pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In the good ole days, back when we judged people better than Evangelicals, the exorcist would kick you out of the church if you were not know to the priest and community.
October 13 at 3:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, Peterson, if they read all the content they are tNETers by blood
October 13 at 3:25pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yes.
October 13 at 3:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson This is one of my favorite videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYAyBNk16A&feature=youtu.be
Street Fighter II "Best of Church Edition" Starring Benny Hinn
I believe in God, but not the frauds like Benny Hinn,...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 3:26pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I don't like the idea, Adrw, but I don't know if I have the grounds to reject outright. I only have prudential concerns.
October 13 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I love this. It is about how protestants judge each other:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBKIyCbppfs
Emo Philips Once I was in San Francisco
I do not own this video or have an business with emo phillips. One of the greatest bits on religion and horses...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Edward the answer to the Lutheran asking for confession is no but in RCIA when we are preparing Protestant converts for acceptance into the Catholic church they are allowed (and must) go to confession in a time proximate to their reception (we allow about 2 weeks before Easter) because of their intention to be in union but the desire to receive communion at Easter Vigil.
October 13 at 3:46pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 13 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I am just so excited that I can now use stickers in conversation threads.
October 13 at 3:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Interesting sticker, Jody. Who is the wolf, and who is the bunny?
October 13 at 3:51pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe #tNETstickergnosis
October 13 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau The bunny is tNET
October 13 at 3:51pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau And he is a fox. My favourite sticker. Well, and I love Pusheen
October 13 at 3:53pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hm. I was thinking the bunny was Matthew J. Peterson, and tNET is the wolf.
October 13 at 3:52pm · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau
October 13 at 3:52pm · Like
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Edward Langley
October 13 at 3:54pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill As dogmatic and judgmental and direct as non-Catholics sing the praises of the Church, how do you convert a heart by this method?
A good sales pitch starts with identifying with the customer and understanding their current situation and needs/desires. The job of the salesperson is to inform the customer of what the features, actions and benefits are of their product and why the customer should invest into this product.
The very direct sales pitch rarely works.
October 13 at 3:54pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau This is one fb advancement I can get behind
October 13 at 3:55pm · Like
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Jeff Neill No, stop this foolishness.
October 13 at 3:56pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I don't know Jeffie. Proclaiming the gospel is importantly different from pitching a sale.
October 13 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill It is a sale
October 13 at 3:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Don't think so.
October 13 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe If the goal was to make a sale, Jesus wouldn't have said most of the things he said.
October 13 at 3:57pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill It is an exchange
October 13 at 3:57pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You do, and in return you receive.
October 13 at 3:58pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Ask / receive.
October 13 at 3:58pm · Like
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Sean Robertson "The relatio has already occasioned some pushback. Following its presentation in the synod hall, 41 bishops spoke about the content, and several pressed for clarifications on specific points:
-- Some asked whether, in the section on homosexuality, there shouldn’t be mention of the teaching that “some unions are disordered,” a reference to the phrase the church has used to describe homosexual relations. That information came from Cardinal Peter Erdo, the primary author of the relatio, who spoke to reporters at a Vatican press conference.
-- Sources said other bishops questioned the analogy the relatio drew between the principle of finding “elements of sanctification and of truth outside” outside the visible structure of the church, expressed in the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, and the broader idea that positive elements can be found not only in sacramental marriage but also in irregular unions.
-- At least one bishop asked what happened to the concept of sin. The word “sin” appears only rarely in the 5,000-word relatio.
At the press conference, Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle of the Philippines emphasized that this text was not the final version and said with a smile, “So the drama continues.”"
October 13 at 3:58pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe you are making my Protestant heart bleed here, Jeffie.
October 13 at 3:58pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Protestants sell cheaply.
October 13 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The more I am conceived of as an oppressed pink bunny full of love by you people, the better.
October 13 at 3:59pm · Like · 6
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Jeff Neill Catholics sell expensive
--- reading back, this statement is not entirely true. The price has been cheapened to the point where being High Anglican was seemingly a more devote and formal than the average Catholic Church parish.
Now that the non-traditional experiments of the past 50 years are receding, I've seen more Anglican priests and their congregations join the Catholics.
The pastor at st Martha's in Murrieta, ca used to be Anglican, which is very different (and repetitive) explanation that is needed to be given as to why a catholic priest has a wife and children.... And yes, this is a Catholic Church. He is not afraid to discuss sin from the pulpit and disenfranchise the parishioners.
October 13 at 4:41pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti "relatio" is a pretty funny title for this document.
October 13 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe "You do, and in return you receive."-- I mean this comment, this makes my Protestant heart bleed.
October 13 at 3:59pm · Unlike · 1
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Jeff Neill How does a Protestant sell salvation? "Accept as Personal lord and savior" (and tithe)
October 13 at 4:00pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Nobody sells salvation. I don't like your choice of metaphor.
October 13 at 4:01pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Protestant churchs, especially the non-denominational ones are a business selling salvation. No firm doctorine. Just a shepherd leading a flock. Mega churches are big business
October 13 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe That's true. They're doing it wrong.
October 13 at 4:02pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Yeah protestants are big businesses with tons of real estate, shady investment schemes, unscrupulous administrators . . . oh wait.
October 13 at 4:03pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I used to go to st michael's abbey for daily mass growing up and drove past the saddleback community church. I saw it go from tent to super mega church. And what does it offer? At what price? And how did it profit?
October 13 at 4:03pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Warm fuzzy feelings are a commodity which are sold and sold cheaply.
October 13 at 4:04pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Warm fuzzy feelings are a commodity which are sold and sold cheaply. --Gradualism
October 13 at 4:06pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Growing up I wanted to start my own church. I would offer all the services and feelings that anyone could want to feel better about themselves while placing the fewest restrictions on behavior.
October 13 at 4:07pm · Like
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Jeff Neill For a small fee you would feel awesome about your choices in life. And the community would support you.
October 13 at 4:07pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Well, for all their mistakes, churches like Saddleback actually place more restrictions on behavior than your average Catholic parish.
October 13 at 4:08pm · Unlike · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha Cohoe Aint that the truth
October 13 at 4:08pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Well... There is a sense that people like paying to do hard things.
October 13 at 4:09pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jeffie-- you know this transactional view of salvation is totally wrong, right?
October 13 at 4:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill You can run a 10k for $30, or do a "mud run" for $130.
October 13 at 4:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hahaha. You don't like my indulgences? But I'm selling them cheap?
October 13 at 4:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I wouldn't be a member of my own church, it is just a business.
October 13 at 4:12pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Profiteering.... We would create a schisms and sects and have special funding drives to promote the differing views and encourage building up the different churchs..... Because I would need to artificially create a division so that I could pander to multiple audiences that would each think they were better than the members of the other church.
October 13 at 4:15pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill In modern Jewish synagogues you have to buy your seats, pay more to have a reserved spot up front, and all high holy days only allow attendance if you purchase tickets.
October 13 at 4:20pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Everything is marketing and sales. Word of mouth increases sales, that is why Facebook is worth money. If you aren't paying, you aren't the customer.
October 13 at 4:25pm · Like
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John Ashman The Church has only thrived on monopoly. It doesn't do well in a competitive environment because the price is high for the same purported ROI.
October 13 at 4:31pm · Like
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John Ashman Plus the sales people are paid horribly, as opposed to, say, Joel Osteen who is highly motivated to "save" as many people as possible.
October 13 at 4:32pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Actually John, the church does better with competition, nothing sells good product as well as bad product.
October 13 at 4:46pm · Like
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John Ashman Ummm, we're talking about Catholic girls versus Protestant girls...right?
October 13 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Compare to alcohol, the cheap stuff is stepping stones to the good stuff.
People that only ever have the good stuff do not realize how good it is.
October 13 at 4:48pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe You guys. Sigh.
October 13 at 4:50pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig So random question for the tNETs: should one obey one's parents in precisely the same way as a monastic obeys his abbot/superior? If not, how does the obedience structure work?
October 13 at 4:51pm · Unlike · 5
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Jeff Neill People convert on account of their significant others. Some lose their faith entirely.
Exposure to truth and acceptance of truth are separate.
Many are called but few are chosen.
October 13 at 4:51pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Honor parents = yes.
Obey =/= honor
October 13 at 4:52pm · Like · 4
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Jon Andrew Greig That's a start. Obedience vs. honour: elaborate?
October 13 at 4:53pm · Like
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Richard Nutley Particular example: I've been non-dating a zealous Catholic girl. (She goes to the novus ordo parish in town, but she lives at home and says the benedictine office, wears the brown scapular, seriously considered the discalced carmelite life, etc.)
She betrayed the normal rules of friendship (after clearly communicating over 3 months that she loves me), by breaking off all contact for over a month.
Finally I found out why: unquestioning obedience to parents.
Quote:
October 13 at 4:58pm · Like
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Richard Nutley "Since I had to let Poppa direct the closure of the courtship proposal with you, I had to give up my own ideas about how I thought he should
go about it, or mine wouldn’t have been true submission at all. I had to make
acts of confidence in the authorities God had placed in my life and trust that
however things went was how they were supposed to go, even if I was going nuts
with anxiety. Wouldn’t you prefer someone who was under your authority to
conduct themselves in a similar way?"
October 13 at 4:59pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yuuuuuuuuuck
October 13 at 5:00pm · Like · 8
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Richard Nutley She backs this up with St. Alphonsus de Liguori on Obedience:
“There
is more certainty of doing the will of God by obedience to superiors, than by
obedience to Jesus Christ should He appear in person and give His
commands.”
“Endeavour
to perform all your actions from a motive of obedience, and you will always
walk securely to salvation.”
“To be
obedient and to be a saint are one and the same thing.”
October 13 at 5:01pm · Like
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Richard Nutley So, any official Church repudiation of applying the concepts of monastic obedience, to family life? Or at least clear teaching that's in tension with such an approach....
October 13 at 5:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ooof. this gets back into epistemic judgments. There is a point at which obedience becomes harmful, no? Therefore we can say obedience in not an unqualified good?
October 13 at 5:08pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not your girl for "official" word on anything, but one obvious difference is that you get no choice about who your parents are.
October 13 at 5:08pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Parents are owed obedience in proportion to their responsibility for the child. So, once the child is responsible for herself, obedience is no longer owed.
October 13 at 5:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Respect and honor, yes. Obedience, no.
October 13 at 5:09pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Samantha Cohoe, the question of responsibility, in their eyes, seems to hinge on the fact that she lives at home. (Of course, they have prevented her from cultivating realistic alternatives.) For the young woman, let's call her "Rose", it seems that the fact that she is in any sense subject to them, makes them her "superiors" in the religious sense, so she then applies these monastic spiritual writings about obedience.
October 13 at 5:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If they have prevented her from cultivating realistic alternatives, they are failing badly in their responsibilities as parents.
October 13 at 5:14pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds like an abusive situation, probably.
October 13 at 5:15pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Michael Beitia, it seems we can't call obedience an unqualified good, but Rose would fall back on the Alphonsus de Liguouri quotes above, especially: “To be obedient and to be a saint are one and the same thing.”
October 13 at 5:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I can't really speak to that, actually. Haven't read Liguouri, am not going to read him.
October 13 at 5:18pm · Edited · Like
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Richard Nutley In this particular work, the teaching seems to be that one's religious superiors constitute the voice of God: http://goo.gl/q6mIdE
The true spouse of Jesus Christ, or The nun sanctified by the virtues of her state,...
BOOKS.GOOGLE.COM
October 13 at 5:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What if she were kidnapped? Her kidnappers would be "superior" to her. Would she owe them obedience?
October 13 at 5:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Any parent who demands that kind of obedience from a grown child is probably more like a kidnapper than a religious superior.
October 13 at 5:23pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond See Desdemona's perfect explanation before the Venetian Senate as to why she no longer owes obedience to her father, though she still owes him honor.
October 13 at 5:23pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley She'd probably think so, once Stockholm Syndrome kicked in.
Her argument would be, assuming the Kidnappers regularly recieve the Sacraments, etc.... "Since I have the option to leave, I owe absolute obedience as long as I stay, and my obedience is gauranteed to be pleasing to God." (Which she gets from the monastic work cited above.)
October 13 at 5:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Obedience is not absolute. Take a look at the rules of St. Benedict. I doubt Liguori recommends such. But I would take it up with Rose's father and ask what were his reasons were and see if you could win him over. Don't know if you tried already.
October 13 at 5:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Desdemona:
My noble father,
I do perceive here a divided duty.
To you I am bound for life and education.
My life and education both do learn me
How to respect you. You are the lord of duty.
I am hitherto your daughter. But here’s my husband.
And so much duty as my mother showed
To you, preferring you before her father,
So much I challenge that I may profess
Due to the Moor my lord.
October 13 at 5:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Except her father is obviously the problem, in this situation.
October 13 at 5:25pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond After Desdemona's speech, Brabantio recognizes that he has falsely accused Othello. What can he say? Her answer is perfect.
October 13 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Sounds like the Stockholm Syndrome is already pretty far gone.
October 13 at 5:26pm · Like
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Richard Nutley John Ruplinger, I did try, and the parents think more or less think that because they are in a state of Grace and want to do what is best for their daughter (no doubt true!) the Holy Spirit has spoken clearly to them in an ineffible way that we are a bad match. (Which for context, every single other person disagrees with.) But who am I to argue with God Himself?
October 13 at 5:27pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Jeffrey Bond, thank you. I'm going to go read that right now. I also think Jon Andrew Greig's formulation of the general question could be useful:
"should one obey one's parents in precisely the same way as a monastic obeys
his abbot/superior? If not, how does the obedience structure work?"
October 13 at 5:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Richard, you're well out of it. Count yourself lucky.
October 13 at 5:30pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger But, Jeffrey, that case is a little more ambiguous than you make it. Why do the Venetians side against Brabantio? Was he in no way wronged? making me chuckle. And what was the law and custom then?
October 13 at 5:30pm · Like
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John Ruplinger well. That is strange, Richard.
October 13 at 5:36pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger and she ends up dead. (Not saying her dad was right either.)
October 13 at 5:33pm · Like
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John Ashman So...Old Testament God = Kidnapper mentality
October 13 at 5:36pm · Like
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Susan Peterson How old is this girl? Is she an adult woman? Then she needs to get a job, accumulate the money to get a cheap apartment, and get the h- out of that house!
October 13 at 5:38pm · Like · 3
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Dominic Bolin I'd be reluctant to make any sort of judgment about a case where I have little to no relevant information. I also doubt that anyone who does not personally know all those involved could make a reasonable judgment (i.e. second-hand information can't convey the things that really matter here).
October 13 at 5:39pm · Unlike · 1
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Susan Peterson Children are meant to grow up. Parental authority has a limited span.
October 13 at 5:40pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe We're all assuming the information relayed is correct. If not, then obviously our judgments about the situation are irrelevant
October 13 at 5:40pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I know bad marriages that ended bad that would have been avoided by heeding a father's advice.
October 13 at 5:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia the only reason a marriage ends badly is that one or both of the particulars don't want it to not end badly. As Camus famously wrote: man can get used to anything
October 13 at 5:45pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Heeding advice is a very, very different thing than abdicating all responsibility for decisions that decide the entire course of your life.
October 13 at 5:46pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I will offer my children advice, that I will expect them to take seriously. I will also expect my children to ultimately make their own decisions about who they marry
October 13 at 5:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Beitia-- I wish you would tell my Dad that.
October 13 at 5:47pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig I think Richard's question is at least starting from the question of what is the right principle when it comes to family/parental authority, especially if said daughter in question is at/over the age of consent to marriage, which is like 16 at least around MT in the Catholic diocese. Bit of a different question of practical advice.
October 13 at 5:47pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia consent is 18 in the US in all dioceses.
October 13 at 5:49pm · Edited · Like
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Dominic Bolin There could easily be hundreds of situations to which the above description "correctly" applies, and the majority would be nothing like what some seem to be assuming to be the case. And it is most likely that the only way to know the distinguishing particular circumstances is to really know the persons involved.
October 13 at 5:51pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Actually I thought it was 16 for men, 14 for women, at least when talking with a couple people in the Northwest, but I could be wrong. I'm trying to figure out Wikipedia's reference, but they also list those same ages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age...
Marriageable age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marriageable age (or marriage age) is the age at which...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 13 at 5:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dominic, I don't agree. Demanding unqualified obedience from an adult daughter who lives at home because you've failed to equip her for independent life is abusive. It would be in all those hundreds of instances you are imagining.
October 13 at 5:53pm · Edited · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger A father's advice and consent should be governed by human prudence. In our custom this is very limited. But there is such a thing as hasty and bad marriages. Annulments anyone.
October 13 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^irrelevant
October 13 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Dominic, I guess that's fair, but maybe a prior question is this: is there exactly the same relationship a child has to parent as monastic has to superior? If so (or if not), is there a point at which the relationship of child to parent changes in the obedience structure? I was more interested to see whether there the principle is the same or different between monastic and family structures.
October 13 at 5:54pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley "Rose" is 22. She's the favorite daughter, a "good girl", and lives in an extremely comfortable gilded cage. Her parents are very zealous and just want what is best but:
You can't be Amish on your own, and not be insane. You need the community standards to keep your idiosyncracies from becoming law. This family has created their own subculture and imbued it with divine authority.
I'm not going to marry Rose now, in all likelihood, because I want healthier grandparents than that for my children. But I love her and would like to encourage her to break out of her cage (which she has completely internalized) by becoming MORE Catholic, not less.
October 13 at 5:53pm · Like · 2
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Dominic Bolin I'm not going to argue; the only reason I posted anything was in case there were any unbiased readers who might otherwise think there was only one way of looking at this.
October 13 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #leprosygnosis
October 13 at 5:54pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe tNET swallows more vicitms....
October 13 at 5:55pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #charybdisgnosis
October 13 at 5:55pm · Like · 5
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Jon Andrew Greig ...and it's now spitting me out to sleep. Sleeeeeepppp... #sleepgnosis
October 13 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond John Ruplinger, the Venetians do not have to side with Othello and Desdemona. The father gives up his case against Othello after he hears his daughter speak. The father can no longer maintain his claim that witchcraft was used after he hears Desdemona speak so rationally.
October 13 at 5:56pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dominic, does the situation described here really not seem suspect to you?
October 13 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Thanks, Jeffrey. Its been a while. I will have to read again. But she was bewitched in a sense. . . all the hair breadth 'scapes. And the Venetians needed Othello.
October 13 at 6:01pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But she was in a gilded cage and the jewel of her father. She escaped for those adventures and had prayed God would make her such a man. Ill match that.
October 13 at 6:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Desdemona, besides being more mature than Rose, is aware of obligations to her husband that limit her obligations to her father. Rose does not understand that the ordinary obligations of friendship limit her from rightly obeying her father, if his wishes are contrary to her obligations. This is because:
1) she has an impoverished understanding of friendship [does anyone know where st. thomas comments on Aristotle's description of the kinds of friendship?]
2) she has a "religious obedience" view of parental authority.
So the questions are first, is such a view of parental authority really catholically permissible? Second, what is the right principle for understanding parental authority, over, for the sake of argument, a 16-year-old girl? (Rose is 22, but I'm not going to be able to convince her to adopt the American model of "independent at 18".)
October 13 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz 1. Daniel Lendman, while a valid baptism requires only consent by an adult, he remains in sin without faith and sorrow for sins, and actually adds a new sin in receiving baptism sacrilegiously.
2. It is against canon law to impose restrictions on marriage such as a 6 month waiting period, or requiring cohabiting couples to separate first. Even if these are goo pastorally, there is both a natural right to marriage, and a right to the sacraments.
3. While in the old days it was considered the sin of seduction (raptus seductionis, rape back when rape didn't mean what it means now) to elope with a girl, against the will of her father. But that presumes she is still under his charge. Aquinas also teaches that parents should be ignored when it comes to vocation (as he ignored his parents). But likewise, since there is a natural right to marriage, parents cannot prohibit their adult offspring from marrying
4. Age of consent in the USA is 18 as Beitia mentions (per USCCB) but the local bishop can dispense, all the way down to 14 for a girl, 16 for a guy, for just cause.
5. Councils of Rimini and Seleucia---those are examples of what I fear the synod may be like. But the synod won't be as bad, being more vague and having less authority. No doubt if this were then, Michael Bolin would be condemning me for not submitting to the "Ecumenical Councils" of Rimini and Seleucia (as they were considered at the time) and telling me that St. Athanasius was excommunicated and I must admit that my certitude that the Church taught consubstantiality at Niceae was only moral, and accept the new councils that reject it.
But I think, I hope, my faith is more certain than that, and I would not follow the bishops into Arianism. Here the majority of bishops are on the "right" side, but they are being muzzled. But if they do approve the Kasper agenda, I reject it right now. I have a little more than moral certitude about Trent and Arcanum and Castii Conubii after all...
October 13 at 6:04pm · Like · 7
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Jeffrey Bond John, it was an ill match, but that was all on Othello. He was made forever and then threw away the pearl of great price. Desdemona was completely without fault. She is nature perfected. Yes, the Duke would have sided with Othello and Desdemona had the father pressed the matter, but he saw he had no standing once she spoke. The Duke urges him to make the best of it, and so he tries but dies of a broken heart.
October 13 at 6:13pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Richard, if you have given up on marrying Rose, then I suspect you are not going to be the one to teach her about these matters. If she is simply taking the counsel of her father and then agreeing that he is right, then certainly there is no problem with her position. But if she is letting her father make the decision and yet she wishes it were otherwise, then it seems to me there is a problem with her understanding of obedience.
October 13 at 6:19pm · Like · 1
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Dominic Bolin Samantha, I just said that the description fits many situations. I don't know what the situation is that is being described. In order to make a concrete situation out of the description, I think we would need to make unwarranted assumptions concerning important elements of the situation. If anything, I think asking about a situation like this on facebook is suspect.
October 13 at 6:19pm · Like
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Richard Nutley Jeffrey Bond, I haven't given up on marrying Rose, but I recognize that if the quest is worth undertaking, its worth is independent of the extremely high odds against me.
At this point, my reason for attempting to continue a friendship with her is only that I love her and so do not want to see her harmed by these false ideas about obedience, regardless of whom she marries.
She is treating her parents' wishes as Divine Command, and because she loves God she then internalizes the command as her own wish. Since this happened she contantly contradicts herself because she is of two minds. She still loves me and doesn't know how to incorporate that into her life in the cage. She wants to speak with me face-to-face instead of over email, but won't even meet for coffee in a public place because she's afraid that goes against "her" principles. I think that if you can't talk with people, you aren't competent to have friends. So my goal is just to persuade her that she should have coffee with me so we can talk about what happened and what the future looks like.
Rose clearly longs to meet and talk with me (I won't quote her emails on that point; you'll have to assume my judgement is accurate) but she's pulling out all these monastic principles of obedience in order to avoid the slightest risk of upsetting her parents.
So I thought: tNET would know whether the Church allows us to apply these principles of religious obedience to the parent-child relationship. That's what I'm primarily hoping to find out.
October 13 at 6:34pm · Like
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Edward Langley Just a general point: the family exists for the sake of making the children independent. The state and the monastic life exist for the well-being of the independent adults who come together in such communities.
October 13 at 6:37pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Well put Joshua Kenz. No amount of obfuscation can make receiving a sacrament unworthily "pastoral". As one of the priests at my parish remarked, "saeparating pastoral from theological makes pastoral meaningless".
October 13 at 6:37pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley Dominic Bolin, this is a complex situation involving parties that don't live according to modern principles. My own friends oversimplify it by saying that Rose (*not her real name) should just grow up. I live in NW Montana, not exactly a hotbed of catholic or intellectual activity. Does that clarify why I am asking here? Where would you ask, if not here?
October 13 at 6:38pm · Like · 1
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Matt Wall Judge no lest you be judged
October 13 at 6:39pm · Like
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Richard Nutley Edward Langley, is the independence you speak of, incompatible with religious obedience?
October 13 at 6:41pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Judge just judgment- Christ. Know ye not that ye shall judge the angels? - St. Paul.
Quotations can be made for many different things.
October 13 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland "It is against canon law to impose restrictions on marriage such as a 6 month waiting period..." Joshua, how does this work? Can you point me to the relevant text?
October 13 at 6:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Richard, the obedience in each case is different because of the different ends of marriage and the monastic life, but obedience in both cases must be a rational obedience. Applying the obedience proper to the monastic life to the parent-child relationship is not rational, but she may be doing this for reasons not even known to her. You are understandably taking her at her word, but her motivations may be quite different than the ones she actually articulates.
October 13 at 6:48pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland The answer to this one may be obvious, but what is the basis for monastic obedience? It seems inappropriate for one adult to have so much authority over any other adult in any circumstance. Is it okay to relinquish one's own personal responsibility to another? Okay because it is freely chosen?
October 13 at 6:51pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Sure, the relevant text is that there is no such text authorizing such denial . Even if marriage were not a natural right,
Can. 213 The Christian faithful have the right to receive assistance from the sacred pastors out of the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the sacraments.
Can. 219 All the Christian faithful have the right to be free from any kind of coercion in choosing a state of life.
Can. 1075 §1. It is only for the supreme authority of the Church to declare authentically when divine law prohibits or nullifies marriage.
§2. Only the supreme authority has the right to establish other impediments for the baptized.
Can. 1076 A custom which introduces a new impediment or is contrary to existing impediments is reprobated.
Can. 1077 §1. In a special case, the local ordinary can prohibit marriage for his own subjects residing anywhere and for all actually present in his own territory but only for a time, for a grave cause, and for as long as the cause continues.
§2. Only the supreme authority of the Church can add a nullifying clause to a prohibition.
October 13 at 6:53pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Couldn't "they" use this one as a justification (e.g. people are not sufficiently prepared etc. w/out pre-cana classes etc + 6 months): Can. 1077 §1. In a special case, the local ordinary can prohibit marriage for his own subjects residing anywhere and for all actually present in his own territory but only for a time, for a grave cause, and for as long as the cause continues.
October 13 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz 1. That requires a GRAVE cause
2. It can only be nullifying with approval of the pope
October 13 at 6:55pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Note how it is in a special case...not general praxis too.
October 13 at 6:56pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Richard, she's just not that into you, bro. When your special lady starts quoting 18th century Italian Bishops to explain why she can't hang out, it's time to take a hint.
October 13 at 6:58pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Restrictive parental courtship practices are terrible after age probably 17, but maybe 18. .
October 13 at 6:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/.../cohabitation-and.../ for an actual Canon lawyer saying the same more politely
Cohabitation and canonical form
The latest tizzy is over Pope Francis’ plans to preside at the weddings of several Roman couples, including...
CANONLAWBLOG.WORDPRESS.COM
October 13 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah...it could be that.
October 13 at 6:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I feel like this was posted a few million posts ago: http://www.thomasumstattd.com/.../courtship.../
Why Courtship is Fundamentally Flawed
I grew up as a member of the homeschool community. When I was a teenager, my friends started reading this...
THOMASUMSTATTD.COM
October 13 at 7:00pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland #recursiongnosis
October 13 at 7:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict So many people are still into that so-called "courtship" garbage...
October 13 at 7:01pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz On another note, neither Joel HF with his discomfort at co-Redemptrix or Samantha Cohoe, despite being a protestant heretic, took exception with my claim that one should love God, the Sacred Humanity of Christ and Mary above oneself, and no one else besides. That Mary is included in the love of the common good of the spiritual order, because her maternity terminates in the hypostatic order...and because she is mediatrix of all graces and thus exists as a common good, thus above the rest of the saints.
October 13 at 7:02pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz #hyperduliagnosis
October 13 at 7:03pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Um, I cant hang out . . . Why not . . . My dad says I can't? . . .Tell him you really want to! . . . Uhhhh, have you ever read any Alphonsus Liguori?
October 13 at 7:03pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Richard, if this seems blunt I apologize, but knowing people as I do it might very well be that Rose enjoys the tragic longing and the situation's classic angst more than the actuality of being with you. I'd say you dodged a bullet, buddy. Best of luck with a resolution.
October 13 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Aaron Gigliotti, on a cursory examination of what I've shared, that's a reasonable conclusion.
Suffice it to say that this is an unusual case. We are talking about a quasi-amish Catholic cult. She has never met a man for coffee before, including me. Of course, you'll just have to take my word for it; but is it so hard to believe that there are strange (yet well-meaning) cults out there?
October 13 at 7:05pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict #rapunzelgnosis
October 13 at 7:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Classic TAC courtship situation that may be helpful to consider: Young TAC man and young TAC woman in a serious relationship. Young TAC man suddenly discovers a vocation and therefore must give up lesser love for higher love. Young TAC woman must concede that higher love trumps lesser love. Within weeks of the breakup, however, the same young TAC man is in a different serious relationship with a different young TAC woman. Jilted young TAC woman from first serious relationship naturally wonders how sincere the new vocation was. Who can say?
October 13 at 7:05pm · Like · 10
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Isak Benedict HAHAHA oh how many times I saw that at TAC!!!
October 13 at 7:06pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland ^^This happened??????!!!!!????
October 13 at 7:06pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland That's terrible.
October 13 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Or the other way around! "I think I'm supposed to be a nun!" *married six months later*
October 13 at 7:06pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict Ladies and gentlemen, if you're just now joining us, TNET is giving dating advice at the moment.
October 13 at 7:08pm · Like · 9
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Aaron Gigliotti I wonder how many guys there are locked in Carthusian cells b/c they couldn't figure out how to dump their girlfriends.
October 13 at 7:08pm · Like · 9
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Isak Benedict #rockandahardplacegnosis
October 13 at 7:08pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz I never got into the courtship idea. But I always thought it amounted to the non-exclusive, make a distinction between dating and going steady...I guess I just assumed it was the opposite of what it was, because I thought the problem with modern dating was "serious" relationships in 7th grade and other such nonsense...didn't realize it was basically taking everything wrong with modern dating and stripping the fun away...
October 13 at 7:09pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland Well, I heard that the guy from our class who entered a Carthusian monastery was advised to go and get a job and try dating for a while before entering. (I may be remembering wrong) #joekenneygnosis
October 13 at 7:10pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Btw, I do not approve of quasi-Amish Catholic cults. I forbid anyone on tNET from dating these people.
October 13 at 7:12pm · Like · 10
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Isak Benedict .
I watch the mating
dragonflies above the pond -
monastery life
October 13 at 7:13pm · Like · 8
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Samantha Cohoe Richard Nutley, I believe you, man. I think what Isak said about the tragic longing may also be true, though. In any case, a woman stuck in the situation you're describing is unlikely to make anyone a good wife until she gets herself a whole lot of therapy.
October 13 at 7:17pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti To quote Woody Allen, "why do I hear $50,000 worth of psycho-therapy dialing 9-1-1?"
October 13 at 7:18pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And Mr. Joshua Kenz-- all I could make out from all that was blahblahblahcatholicsaresuperweirdaboutmaryblahblahblah
October 13 at 7:20pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland The problem is that my friend (whom I would very much like to date were we not 180 degrees on most matters of faith and morals) thinks that I'm quasi-Catholic-Amish and a magisterium-bot because I care about (and try to follow) what the church has to say about morality in matters of dating and marriage (i.e. I won't marry him civilly). So it's perhaps a matter of perspective. I mean, I think the Rose Courtship situation is abusive, but someone else thinks my situation (of having to follow bureaucratic church canons is coercive too.
October 13 at 7:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe ??
October 13 at 7:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When did Catherine become such a relativist?
October 13 at 7:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Next you'll be saying your truth isn't my truth, and we all have to find our own truth
October 13 at 7:23pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Hahahaha!
October 13 at 7:23pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I was saying that we only love God, Christ in His humanity, and Mary above ourselves, as one loves the common good more than the proper good. So God-Christ's humanity-Mary- Self- others, in the order of love....
October 13 at 7:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz, I find it touching that you continue to patiently explain yourself to me even when I'm being obnoxiously facetious.
October 13 at 7:33pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I take issue with the mediatrix of all graces stuff, but I suppose, given that, your claim would seem to follow.
October 13 at 7:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Dating advice on tNET? oof.
Anybody know any good moonshine recipes?
October 13 at 7:36pm · Like · 7
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Richard Nutley Ok, for the sake of everyone's enjoyment, a dramatic situation has to be at least somewhat credible, which is difficult since this situation has people who know the involved parties saying things like "this is unbelievable, it's like a jane austen novel," and, "did this really happen or is it from a movie?"
But if it helps lend credibility to the notion that Rose loves me but is suffering from cult programming and nearly-completely-unexercised individual judgement:
1. Rose, though 22, has never had a boyfriend and her romantic experience comes entirely from old novels. She's never been a TV or netflix watcher either. (Nothing wrong with any of this, of course.)
2. Her life is very pleasant and she has no alternatives even if it weren't. She leads a book-group, is deeply involved in liturgical music, is allowed to travel with her sister to various church-related conferences, and generally enjoys a fulfilling and meaningful life, safe within the family nest where she is the most beloved person there.
3. Her physical attraction to me has always been evident, and became increasingly so after a few weeks. This kind of thing is easy for most people (who have some experience) to ascertain fairly accurately.
4. Within a month of meeting her, her emails became longer and took on an increasingly adoring tone. She started calling me "Aragorn" which at the time seemed cute, if too flattering.
5. Then she started thinking about me constantly, as her letters clearly show, and comparing our conversations to everything she experienced, and then writing to me about that, with great affection.
6. She started begging me to come to all kinds of family events. The parents and the rest of the family loved me (and still do, actually). Especially she wanted me to come meet her spiritual director when he visited the state, even though it required driving 8 hours (round-trip). I had a private conference with the spiritual director, who had obviously heard about me from different angles from all the family members, and who strongly approved of my pursuing Rose.
7. Nothing changed, except that I violated her parents' expectations by going to see Rose when she was away from them at a church event, at which I went on a walk with her (alone!!!!) and talked with her alone (about marriage and family life!!!!!!) when the parents weren't present.
8. They all FREAKED and it was too much for her to handle (at least this is what seems to have happened). The dad demanded that I not contact her for a few weeks while they "discerned". Then after a week he came to meet me and told me IT WAS OVER. He also told me that she had written me a letter explaining that, quote, "no other person helped me come to this decision" but that he wasn't going to give me the letter! And that he had read my emails to her! Etc. He said a bunch of things about what Rose thought and where she was coming from that directly contradicted the facts as I knew them from Rose herself.
9. This went down a few weeks ago. Finally a few days ago she emails me that she's been crying and crying, and a bunch of other things I won't go into, but it's pretty obvious to me what happened. It's just not obvious to her. And the psychology of it all would be obvious to all of you if I shared her letters, which I won't do. Her emails of the last few days are filled with confusion, expressions of love, and attempts to integrate her love for me with her obedience to her parents.
10. I have friends (new to me) who are in her church community and have known her family for decades, who are the ones who told me that they have this dangerous cult-like mentality, and who corroborated everything that I would have otherwise been hesitant to believe, given my love and respect for them. These friends tell me that for the sake of Rose and for the sake of her family, if I'm willing to try to do it, I should break her out -- but they'd understand if I'm not up for the bad experience it's almost sure to be.
So since I do love her, and actually her family as well, I am going to do my best to help her take some baby steps towards freedom. Thank you for your help in this, tNET. Prayers for "Rose" most appreciated -- the whole family actually has alot to offer the world and the Church if only they could grow out of this system of control. Whether I am the one to marry her or not is important to me of course, but is not the primary objective right now.
October 13 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict And thus it was that Jane Austen's long lost seventh novel was discovered.
October 13 at 7:46pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe This is more like a Dateline expose
October 13 at 7:49pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia no time like the present:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lZ7dH95gZQ
Screeching Weasel - Love
Love by Screeching Weasel From their CD, Boogadaboogadaboogada http://tinyurl.com/boogadaU...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Seriously though Richard, I don't know how many fish there are in the sea in Kalispell MT, but I would run away fast. (Probably with middle fingers raised and toward the civilization that is LA) Talking about things that are important with an adult is pretty scandalous.... not.
October 13 at 7:54pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Richard, really, you can't rescue this woman. Sounds like she needs rescuing, but you're not going to be able to do it.
October 13 at 7:54pm · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict .
October 2014
and punk rock just
makes me feel old
October 13 at 7:55pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe You can't rescue someone against her will.
October 13 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict How about a little loud misogyny Michael?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWi5TevUMw
The Weasels - Beat Her with a Rake
'Beat Her with a Rake' is probably considered the most well-known song from LA post-glam rockers The...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 7:59pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I should have made it more clear that was a response to Michael's Screeching Weasels song, not to Richard's story. Eesh...
October 13 at 8:01pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Richard Nutley Samantha Cohoe, it is hateful but I think you're right. I'm going to shake things up as much as I can on my way out though.
What do you think happens to women like this, in the long run?
October 13 at 8:01pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My guess is, eventually get some help and escape, or, marry some horrible weirdo her weirdo parents approve of, or, die alone.
October 13 at 8:03pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Why do you want to shake things up?
October 13 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley As individuals I love the mom, the dad, the siblings, and I think it would be best for them in the long run.
Of course, if you care to psychoanalyze, you may find that it's because I'm a vindictive and quixotic personality.
October 13 at 8:07pm · Like
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Richard Nutley +drama, I admit.
October 13 at 8:08pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Richard, this isn't the Pius V community near Post Falls is it?
October 13 at 8:10pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia tNET: if by the like I can take as a truth-statement, Richard's story is totally believable. In fact, it is probably worse than he's making it out to be.
October 13 at 8:13pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia so I leave for now, cleansing the taste of bad Austen plots, crazy sedes, and the great northwest by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i33XhwSzPmc
Screeching Weasel - Dingbat
Dingbat by Screeching Weasel From their CD, Boogadaboogadaboogada http://tinyurl.com/boogadaU...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 13 at 8:15pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti If a woman ever called me Aragorn I would first check to see if someone had slipped me a tab of LSD. If I was in my right mind, I would check to see if someone had slipped her some LSD. If that was a negative, I would pat her on the head, find the nearest bathroom, crawl into the fetal position, and weep.
October 13 at 8:17pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe Richard-- are you a sedevacantist? If so, I'm sure someone here can fix that for you.
October 13 at 8:21pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Dang, I keep forgetting not to like Michael's comments.
October 13 at 8:23pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti BTW, Richard, Rose's dad will wind up on the nightly news one of these days. Mark my words.
October 13 at 8:26pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley Samantha Cohoe, worse! The only thing that makes less sense than that -- I'm an Eastern Orthodox who recently came to believe in Papal Infallibility. Thanks for the offer, though
October 13 at 8:28pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Pi Vther for sure. Also, oh man wow.
October 13 at 8:28pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Rose isn't currently SSPV either; the family has apparently in the last 5 years settled on going to the ordinary novus ordo parish but maintaining an FFSP spiritual director and traveling to authorized Latin masses whenever they can. The family would probably be better off in one of those more extreme groups though: ironically, it would put a check on their own idiosyncracies, because they'd be accountable to community norms beyond their own family.
*better off only in this one way though
October 13 at 8:34pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict I just read this article. What's the funniest book you've ever read, TNET? Mine might be Evelyn Waugh's The Loved One, although A Confederacy of Dunces is a comic masterpiece.
http://electricliterature.com/ten-funny-books-you-may.../
Ten Funny Books You May Not Have Read
What are the funniest books ever written? The answers always seem to be the same: Catch-22, A Confederacy...
ELECTRICLITERATURE.COM
October 13 at 8:34pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti SSPV. Sweet. Any time your spiritual director wears a mitre to Sam's Club and lives in his mom's basement, you should seriously examine your religious practices.
October 13 at 8:36pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Ryland It's true. She's not an adult or mature if she's acting that way, and you'll have to wait until she is. She probably wouldn't be able to have a healthy relationship if what you describe is the case.
October 13 at 8:36pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil Sometimes women escape from abusive family situations in ultra-Orthodox Mormon, Muslim or Jewish communities and go on to write books about it. It's really hard to do, though, because they know literally no one outside the community, and they will never be able to see their families again. I didn't know there were Catholics who were this isolated, but tNET continues to be informative.
October 13 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Aaron Gigliotti You read my mind. LotR pet names are a definite red flag.
October 13 at 8:38pm · Like · 8
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Catherine Ryland ^^I could have been this isolated if I hadn't pushed back. (okay, that's really not fair to my parents -- nowhere near as isolated as described above, or muslim isolated). They would have no problem with me meeting boys, and they probably would have realized it wasn't their business, even though they strongly suggested that I follow the 2nd semester jr yr horrid advice. I just think they initially thought that there might be something to the courtship rules.
October 13 at 8:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland On the other hand, I definitely went too far in the other direction in some ways, not in others.
October 13 at 8:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I'm liking that you pushed back, Catherine.
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I think my parents were maturing in their own understanding of what to do about older children however, and weren't sure yet.
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm assuming this was after TAC?
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland At some point, it became not their business.
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland What? Pushing back?
October 13 at 8:41pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe or not?
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Isak Benedict The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County by Mark Twain
October 13 at 8:41pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Probably.
October 13 at 8:42pm · Like
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Joel HF Isak Benedict--E. Waugh, Black Mischief.
October 13 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe You're all wrong, the funniest books you have read were written by PG Wodehouse.
October 13 at 8:46pm · Unlike · 4
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Adrw Lng Honesty I've never read any Wodehouse because of all the nerd fanboys, and yes I know that is a dumb reason lol
October 13 at 8:48pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--point taken.
October 13 at 8:49pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Adrw you're missing out on life.
October 13 at 8:49pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hey, does anyone here remember when Hans Herman Hoppe gave a lecture at TAC? Let's talk about what a nutcase he is!
October 13 at 8:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Waugh, Put Out More Flags
October 13 at 8:53pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Here's a fun quote from him, about his latest theory:" Let me emphasize that I consider this theory as essentially irrefutable, as a priori true. In my estimation this theory represents one of the greatest – if not the greatest – achievement of social thought. It formulates and codifies the immutable ground rules for all people, everywhere, who wish to live together in peace."
October 13 at 8:55pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland the anarcho-capitalist?
October 13 at 8:55pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah!
October 13 at 8:55pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--Sounds like Triple H came up with a great theory then. I mean, why would he lie about his own work?
October 13 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Wasn't Elijah White really into this guy for a while?
October 13 at 8:56pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Yes!
October 13 at 8:57pm · Like
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Joel HF I still remember that lecture. It's on youtube, I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww-o--ZaW5M
October 13 at 8:57pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Did I ever tell y'all the true story of how Hulk Hogan called me during Junior finals to wish me luck and remind me to take my vitamins?
October 13 at 8:59pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^Or maybe it was senior year...
October 13 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was there when that happened!!
October 13 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It was Senior year!
October 13 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Richard Nutley: TAC can be and is a great half way house for many who come from such cult-ish religious circles.
I would be thankful you aren't romantically involved. You are dodging a bullet. But, if you want to help, the more you can encourage her to get out and away the better (maybe to a religious college if possible).
I've seen some of these folks turn out splendid. I've seen others realize in their 30s just what they'd been through. Sometimes it is horrific stuff. Other times it is rendered harmless.
Rest assured that over time, things will come to a head. Trust your instincts re how bad it is.
Many times people who everyone thought were just strange homeschoolers turn out to have been through hell and need therapy, and those who seemed "rebels" or "heretics" in these circles turn out to be well adjusted human beings.
October 13 at 9:01pm · Like · 7
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Samantha Cohoe wait... did you have a cell phone? How was I there? But I remember it! We were at some party or something... I think...
October 13 at 9:01pm · Like
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Joel HF I had a cell phone. We aren't * that * old.
October 13 at 9:02pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF And then I typed out everybody's theses on the old remington for 5 cents a page. #oldtimergnosis
October 13 at 9:02pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Ryland: I don't think the 2nd semester junior year is horrid advice. 99% of relationships begun before then fail spectacularly and waste time and energy. Not that anyone will ever follow the advice, but...
October 13 at 9:03pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Samantha Cohoe http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/.../the-contrarian.../
The Contrarian Trap: The Source of the Liberty Movement’s Dark Side
If you have the stomach for it, you might consider...
BLEEDINGHEARTLIBERTARIANS.COM
October 13 at 9:03pm · Like
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Joel HF It is technically true that I didn't date until after sophomore year.
October 13 at 9:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Here is a fun discussion of the problem of contrarians within non-conformist circles.
October 13 at 9:03pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe tNET is such a non-conformist circle. We have some offensive contrarians.
October 13 at 9:04pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I've run informal numbers. I've only heard of maybe two cases of the pre-junior year thing working out.
October 13 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Let's read this article, and examine ourselves, and reflect.
October 13 at 9:04pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Hmmm...
October 13 at 9:05pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And don't get me started on the whole priest/nun thing re dating in these circles. What a load of crap.
October 13 at 9:05pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe by non-conformist, I mean politically or socially unpopular. Which we all totally are
October 13 at 9:05pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Yes.
October 13 at 9:05pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The use and abuse of religion in over-earnest youthful relationships. Meh.
October 13 at 9:05pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I mean, I am, and I'm waaaaaay more politically and socially acceptable than most of you nerds
October 13 at 9:06pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Here's what I observed--if a guy wanted to attract the ladies at TAC, there were 3 simple steps. Step 1, start going to daily mass and rosary; step 2, start telling various girls on campus that he was thinking that maybe he had a vocation, but he just wasn't sure, could they help him? Step 3, profit.
October 13 at 9:06pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson "Rosary walks" and dramatic and strange religious-erotic dramas
October 13 at 9:07pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I used to watch those guys from smokers patio as they went to early mass after I had been out all night drinking or exploring Lowss Angelleez.
October 13 at 9:08pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson One time we counted how many dudes were going to early mass without a woman in the picture.
October 13 at 9:09pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Did you see this interview with Cardinal Wuerl? Where he distinguishes between doctrine and pastoral practice. https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/.../cardinal-wuerl...
Cardinal Wuerl: Reception of Communion is not a doctrinal position. |...
COMMONWEALMAGAZINE.ORG
October 13 at 9:09pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We counted one. One holy man in the city. I wanted to give him some kind of prize.
One dude who was going ostensibly just to go without the power of Eros to power him, at least from what we could tell.
October 13 at 9:11pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Adrw Lng It may have just been some kind of drunken vision considering the benders your class had
October 13 at 9:11pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Diogenes taking his lantern, looking for the man at daily mass who wasn't there for the chicks.
October 13 at 9:14pm · Like · 7
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Jody Haaf Garneau Early Mass was well attended by single guys in my time. Must have been your era.
October 13 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson ^pretty much.
October 13 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Plus I needed to kill some time before sleeping off the hangover.
October 13 at 9:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Drinking there, however, may have been a perverse sign of some sort of health. Look at us now. Most pit denizens are productive members of society. True fact.
October 13 at 9:15pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Early Mass was well attended by single guys during my time too. Also by single ladies.
October 13 at 9:16pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Bown chica bow now...
October 13 at 9:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Not that there's anything wrong with that.
October 13 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah... but a lot of those early mass folks actually ended up in religious orders
October 13 at 9:17pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe at least for some amount of time
October 13 at 9:17pm · Like
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Joel HF I should confess, my sample size for the early mass was ... small. Very small.
October 13 at 9:17pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, Joel, can't say I remember you being there...at all
October 13 at 9:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley Matthew J. Peterson, I began dating the girl I eventually married around the beginning of December, freshman year.
October 13 at 9:18pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Those were my wild days.
October 13 at 9:18pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I guess our short bursts of early morning piety did not overlap
October 13 at 9:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley There were at least two other couples in my class that did the same thing.
October 13 at 9:18pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Our class dated each other very little until the end, and we were, by common consensus, the greatest class ever.
October 13 at 9:19pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I think the 2nd semester Junior year rule is often taken too dogmatically.
October 13 at 9:20pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you folks is cray-cray
October 13 at 9:20pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson So that makes you and two other couples and Matthew Reiser that I know of.
October 13 at 9:20pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Whatever, Samantha Cohoe.
October 13 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hans Herman Hoppe is cray cray
October 13 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm sure the tutors still sung our praises in your day, Edward, so you must already know this.
October 13 at 9:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley In fact, from the four years I was there, there are a significant number of married couples where at least one person was a freshman when they started dating.
October 13 at 9:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley Samantha, the only praises I've heard were Ms. Zedlick about Brian Dragoo's Junior Seminar.
October 13 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson !?
October 13 at 9:22pm · Like
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Joel HF Samantha Cohoe--didn't 2 couples from our class drop out and marry prior to junior year?
October 13 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Peterson: we drank enough to stagger Navy Seals. . . stayed out all night, talked to priests in the morning...... and channeled the spirit of the Bear. Kids these days....
October 13 at 9:22pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Really, Edward Langley? This upsets a decade of informal data!
October 13 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think I was in that seminar Karen Z is talking about.
October 13 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I think the 2nd semester rule is more to prevent fragmenting of the TAC community than anything else: relationships really take a toll on how much you interact with the rest of the college.
October 13 at 9:23pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Joel HF-- let's set them aside.
October 13 at 9:23pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Especially if your "significant other" lives nearby.
October 13 at 9:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'd read Aristotle and St. Thomas until the wee hours too - after Navy Seal boozing.
October 13 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yeah, people - those who abandoned the sphere of grace don't count. At least one person has to be a grad.
October 13 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia most of my work-study was loaded. But I got to be the third four-yearer in the library behind Natedog and Father Thor
October 13 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I got this searchable "CD" of the summa and it was suhweet.
October 13 at 9:25pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I'm still "liking" most of Mr Berthia's posts. #popularitygnosis #justlikemiddleschool
October 13 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ahahhahahaha
October 13 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Talking about the Summa, I really should be reading On Generation and Corruption with commentaries thereupon . . .
October 13 at 9:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Loved being a prefect senior year and finding some little weaselly under age under classman had put beer in my fridge and conveniently neglected to sign it in.
Because they would have to "pay the tax," as I called it.
October 13 at 9:28pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia "sign in" what is this "sign in" you speak of....
October 13 at 9:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF This is why I never left booze with prefects
October 13 at 9:29pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia I never had any leftovers that weren't going to be drank after curfew in my room....
October 13 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley I still have uncharitable thoughts about the people who finished off the Tequila I left in the prefect's closet . . . my fiancée and I had gone to her house and made margarita mix with lemons off the tree, only to find all the tequila missing when we decided to go to the rocks with friends.
October 13 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Sign it in and you win. You don't sign, I drink your wine.
October 13 at 9:31pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I told them this over and over. But nonetheless...
October 13 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The tax was repeatedly paid
October 13 at 9:31pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Drrrrraaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnaaaaaaagggggggeeee
October 13 at 9:32pm · Like
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Joel HF That's what that's from, right?
October 13 at 9:32pm · Like
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Max Summe Isak Benedict - Confederany of Dunces! That book is pure gold. I'd forgotten about that....
October 13 at 9:38pm · Like · 2
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Marie Pitt-Payne I'm really starting to think this thread is in lieu of paying for therapy.
October 13 at 9:39pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Joel, at least 4 couples left and got married. Mostly by the end of freshman year.
October 13 at 9:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Marie-- I've freely admitted that several times.
October 13 at 9:40pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau For this reason ^^ dating should be banned.
October 13 at 9:40pm · Like
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Joel HF 4 couples? I only remember 2. Levi and what'shername and whosit and Van Hoof.
October 13 at 9:40pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Maybe that's why TAC didn't like early dating. Too much attrition puts a dent in their bottom line.
October 13 at 9:41pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland Gabe and Shannon?
October 13 at 9:42pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Oh yeah, that's 3.
October 13 at 9:42pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Koert and Kristen?
October 13 at 9:44pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Did they drop out?
October 13 at 9:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson tNET: much like booze, it's cheaper than therapy.
October 13 at 9:47pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia tNET is free
October 13 at 9:52pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I wish booze was...
October 13 at 9:52pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe tNET seems free. But it takes a small part of your being every time you post....
October 13 at 9:53pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia Max, if that were the case there wouldn't be any of me left
October 13 at 9:57pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe To be honest, Michael - I don't know if you have any extra-tNET existence at this point.... are you sure there IS any of you left?
October 13 at 9:59pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia watchin' MNFB on my computer now, having a snack with my wife, actually.
October 13 at 10:01pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Edward Langley http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/TNET.html
tNET
This is an archive of tNET in its full glory.
SRV2.ELANGLEY.ORG
October 13 at 10:11pm · Like · 6 · Remove Preview
Max Summe Edward Langley it's out of date already....
October 13 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Can we get the live feed version
October 13 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley It can't actually keep up, as far as I know, because of weird FB API restrictions.
October 13 at 10:12pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, it's just a static page, that updates everytime I copy and paste the most recent posts.
October 13 at 10:13pm · Like
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Joel HF ^Aw man, no Peregrine!
October 13 at 10:13pm · Like
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Edward Langley It actually does have Peregrine, but the script I use to produce it renamed him to Scott Weinberg.
October 13 at 10:14pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley (I use the same script for producing the HTML and stats, so it's kinda messy.)
October 13 at 10:14pm · Like
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Max Summe wait - so you're not getting the commetns w/ FB API? That must take forever....
October 13 at 10:15pm · Like
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Edward Langley No, I only have to do a partial update.
October 13 at 10:15pm · Like
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Max Summe yes, but... if you go away for a day, and come back - a thousand comments....
October 13 at 10:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley So, as long as I don't go more than about 1000 posts or so between updates, it's not too bad.
October 13 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe do you do a lot of coding in your free time?
October 13 at 10:16pm · Like
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Edward Langley I have a script that parses the copy/pasted version into more programmer-friendly stuff.
October 13 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yes and no.
October 13 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley I put myself through TAC coding for a biological lab. (Custom database stuff)
October 13 at 10:17pm · Like
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Max Summe go on.....
October 13 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Since then, I do a little bit here and there.
October 13 at 10:17pm · Like
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Edward Langley Mostly utility type scripts to solve particular day-to-day problems.
October 13 at 10:19pm · Like
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Max Summe interesting... we should talk...
October 13 at 10:19pm · Like
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Edward Langley Here's a more programmer-friendly dataset: http://srv2.elangley.org/~edwlan/TNET.json
October 13 at 10:19pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante seems like Peregrine's posts have been deleted
October 13 at 10:20pm · Edited · Like
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Edward Langley No, as I said, I rebaptized them.
October 13 at 10:20pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well then Peterson is talking to a ghost just a few posts from the start
October 13 at 10:20pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante also, was I actually the first post on tNET?
October 13 at 10:21pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley Jehoshaphat Escalante, I think you might be right about Peregrine
October 13 at 10:21pm · Like
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Edward Langley I'll go through older archives and amend things
October 13 at 10:23pm · Like
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Edward Langley fixed tNET, and I do think Jehoshaphat Escalante really had the first comment.
October 13 at 10:35pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson Jehoshaphat Escalante: tNET Adam. Or is that just a myth? Others ascribe to the polygenesis theory of tNET's origins...
October 13 at 10:36pm · Edited · Like · 13
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Jehoshaphat Escalante there was a unique First Man.
October 13 at 10:37pm · Like · 10
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Jeff Neill Ahhhh..... Tac dating, I learned it is better to have friends and be social than to date while studying.
Keep the social circle as wide as possible for as long as possible
October 13 at 10:44pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill .
Frosh relationships
Lead one to a lonely life
Lust for the friendzone
October 13 at 10:52pm · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson Matthew J. Peterson, for what it's worth, at least 5 members of my class who are now married were dating their future spouse by the end of freshman year. Despite those exceptions though, in general, freshman dating is a terrible idea. Sophomore dating is somewhat more acceptable, but only because it can be good experience for what will likely be a more serious relationship as an upperclassman.
October 13 at 11:18pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson ^And I can think of at least 5 more married/engaged classmates that started dating sophomore year.
October 13 at 11:12pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz, I don't know why you tagged me in that comment above... but I suppose you had to tag someone.
October 14 at 12:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman For the record: Courting is stupid idea.
October 14 at 12:54am · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill After reading "the saga of Rose" the lesson you ought to be walking away with, which most people miss, is the obvious: you aren't just dating her you are dating her whole family.
As you age, your other friends will fall away from daily life and all that remains is your family and the in-laws.
Every Holiday and birthday forever.... You are never going to "save" someone from their family, you are joining it.
If you don't want them, leave.... And do it soon. You aren't doing any favors (for her or you) hanging around.
Your reaction should be "these people are tons of fun, they would all be my friends and social circle even without marriage"
October 14 at 1:17am · Edited · Like · 6
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Pater Edmund Amazon tells me that my copy of Lila is now in the mail.
Pater Edmund's photo.
October 14 at 1:24am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Dating. TAC.
Disastrous train wrecks off track
Autumnal jollies
October 14 at 3:45am · Edited · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia Dating. TAC.
Like marriage without the fun
Autumnal jollies.
October 14 at 8:14am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Monica Murphy
October 14 at 8:56am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe lost tNET. tNET calls Monica Murphy back.
October 14 at 8:57am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Phew. Thought I'd lost it! I'm a quiet lurker and liker.
October 14 at 8:58am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I got your back, Monica.
October 14 at 8:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Contrary to popular belief, spanking is ok.
October 14 at 9:29am · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Goof morning Daniel
October 14 at 9:32am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Dating. Tac.
Lurking. Liking. Stalking. tNET.
Autumnal jollies
October 14 at 9:36am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Daniel, what you do in the privacy of your own home.....
October 14 at 9:36am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I admit to nothing!
October 14 at 9:38am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Goof morning to you too, Adrw.
October 14 at 9:38am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I just keep reading these articles that are full of nonsense about spanking.
October 14 at 9:39am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes! Spanking is good.
Kids only, and not your wife.
Autumnal jollies?
October 14 at 9:40am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Happy two month birthday, TNET.
October 14 at 9:41am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Have to teach, but quick thought about spanking-- at the very best, it's a discipline tool that lends itself far too easily to abuse. At worst, it's inherently damaging to kids.
October 14 at 9:43am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Let's talk about something less charged, like the death penalty.
October 14 at 9:47am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Is the death penalty justifiable in principle? If so, when? If not, why not?
October 14 at 9:47am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Just as a followup to yesterday's discussion. +Burke's response:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/.../breaking-cardinal-burke...
Breaking: Cardinal Burke says statement from Pope Francis defending Catholic...
LIFESITENEWS.COM
October 14 at 9:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I thought you might disagree, Samantha. I would be interested in your more well developed thoughts,
October 14 at 9:49am · Like
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Adrw Lng Quick thought about the death penalty-- at the very best it's a discipline tool that lends itself far too easily to abuse. At worse it's inherently damaging to kids.
October 14 at 9:51am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Since no one is able or willing to engage, I will engage this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../13/spanking_n_5977328.html
Why Spanking Doesn't Work
When you’re a parent at the end of your rope with your kids, it can be a dangerous set of circumstances for...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
October 14 at 9:51am · Like
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Michael Beitia discipline must be handled in a calm fashion. Anger isn't discipline. (facile dicere, difficile facere)
October 14 at 9:51am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman Michael, I think you are right.
October 14 at 9:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman This article starts out at "end of your rope." If a parent is at the end of his or her rope, then that is not a good time to spank, or do any kind of discipline for that matter.
October 14 at 9:52am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Certain behaviors, however, I want my children to associate with pain, e.g. playing with light sockets.
October 14 at 9:53am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman or power outlets/
October 14 at 9:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman or the like.
October 14 at 9:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Again, responding to the article:
1.) if the goal is to calm a child, I think it is correct that spanking is not a good means to that goal.
2.) Yes. Spanking does tell your child that measured violence is an acceptable reaction is a certain scenarios. I am okay with this lesson as I think it is true.
3.) It does work in the long term. Experience shows this.
October 14 at 9:57am · Unlike · 2
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Adrw Lng The non physical guilt-tripping I see some parents doing is less effective and has far worse repercussions than an occasional and needed spank.
October 14 at 9:59am · Unlike · 6
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Michael Beitia I prefer belittling and bullying. (joke)
October 14 at 9:59am · Like
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Daniel Lendman NOTE TO ALL: if you do spank your children, or use other forms of reasonable corporal punishment, do not say ANYTHING about it on facebook. People are crazy, and the crazy ones may be watching.
October 14 at 10:01am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman For all crazy people watching, we are speaking only in hypotheticals.
October 14 at 10:01am · Like · 5
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Joel HF NB: This means that Daniel Lendman uses a bull whip on his kids. German authorities take note. (Kidding!)
October 14 at 10:02am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I am intimately familiar with a family that uses "hand thumps," and they have had very good success with this. Their daughter, who is just about the age of my own, never touches power outlets.
October 14 at 10:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Btw, Joel HF, I am in Austria, you Nazi.
October 14 at 10:03am · Like
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Joel HF I employ a "live and learn" attitude toward power outlets and traffic. The kid needs to explore and learn in his own way and style. Perhaps he/she is a tactile learner? The worst thing is to stifle creativity.
October 14 at 10:04am · Unlike · 5
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Adrw Lng Me too with livestock and strangers. Life is a highway
October 14 at 10:04am · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF Austria? Seen any kangaroos, mate?
October 14 at 10:05am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Actually, we had a package sent from the USA go to Australia and then come here.
October 14 at 10:06am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Austria sells "No Kangaroos" stickers.
October 14 at 10:06am · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF That's so funny.
October 14 at 10:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia in all seriousness (well... some) as ye sow so shall ye reap. This is especially true with little mimic human-like things we call children.
October 14 at 10:08am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman ^That's why my brother stopped picking his nose.
October 14 at 10:09am · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^Quitter
October 14 at 10:10am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Also Daniel I think it's perfectly normal mothers find spanking uncomfortable
October 14 at 10:12am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I agree with you, Adrw.
October 14 at 10:34am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think there is a tacit understanding that pain is among the worst of evils and that children should never be subjected to this.
October 14 at 10:35am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman I object to this idea for two reasons:
October 14 at 10:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman 1. Physical pain is not the worst of all evils
October 14 at 10:36am · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman 2. I do not think that we must prevent our children from suffering all evils. Rather, I think we must teach them how to confront and deal with evils that are, in fact, a part of life.
October 14 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Oh now we have moved onto spanking! Fun! did I ever tell you all of the time I was told by a mom that I should go to prison for pinching a child's hand to get her to stop touching something?
October 14 at 10:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman My wife told me about that episode, Lauren. But I don't think she mentioned your name. I am sorry you had to deal with that.
October 14 at 10:38am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick It taught me to avoid mothers online
October 14 at 10:39am · Unlike · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick I don't understand the "only use distraction" mode of discipline. Who has time to be constantly distracting a stubborn child going for hot stove, electric socket etc. What does that teach them ultimately?
October 14 at 10:42am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Well, as I said, a family with which I am intimately familiar, has had a great deal of success using hand thumps to discourage dangerous behavior in their toddler.
October 14 at 10:46am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think it is important to distinguish in toddlers between annoying (which are most toddlers) and dangerous.
I don't think corporal punishment is appropriate when it just annoying.
October 14 at 11:30am · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF So, the death penalty. Always wrong in all times or places? If not, what justification must be given?
October 14 at 11:44am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Agreed, Michael Beitia.
October 14 at 11:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't think the death penalty is wrong, simpliciter, Joel HF.
October 14 at 11:54am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Is it only right when demanded by specific deterrence (i.e. the only way to stop this specific person from, e.g., killing again), or can it be used for "retributive justice"?
October 14 at 11:59am · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson My first inclination is to outright deny the death penalty as ever acceptable, but I don't think the Church has my back on that one, so I would probably say it's not wrong in all times and places, but if it's only necessary when the convict poses a legitimate threat to society, then I have to wonder if it's ever really necessary these days.
October 14 at 12:04pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Why can't it be called for by retributive justice? Why only deterrence?
October 14 at 12:00pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think that all punitive laws should have a retributive element and a deterring element.
October 14 at 12:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think the death penalty does that.
October 14 at 12:02pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sean, even JPII acknowledged that there have been times in history where the death penalty was used to protect the sanctity of life. But that time is not now.
October 14 at 12:03pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson ^That sounds about right.
October 14 at 12:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think the death penalty may be appropriate in some times and places, hence not wrong, simpliciter, but unallowable in the modern West.
October 14 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Why unallowable in the modern west?
October 14 at 12:05pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger I only threaten the death penalty, Joel. And then say a prayer he makes it to his next birthday. The cats on the other hand. . .
October 14 at 12:05pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think there are many reasons, Joel HF. Aaron Dunkel points out that today the death penalty takes on an account of personal vengeance, which is why he is opposed to it.
October 14 at 12:07pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson With the security of modern Western prisons, there's no reason to impose the death penalty, since convicts can be safely locked up for life.
October 14 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I point to the manifest injustice of our legal system that is clearly discriminatory against Blacks and Hispanics.
October 14 at 12:09pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Can we draw a similarity between allowable times for the death penalty and killing in self-defence?
October 14 at 12:09pm · Like
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Joel HF @Sean Robertson--why not for the sake of retributive justice? Why does it only have to be for the sake of deterrence?
October 14 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Life sentences are also less expensive nowadays, as it turns out.
October 14 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger We don't really much punish for deterrance: "live and learn." Of course I had a failed experiment at teaching the kids about electrocution. My 8 eight year old son enthusiastically volunteered to show the effects of sticking your finger in an open socket when not grounded. . .
October 14 at 12:10pm · Like
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Joel HF @Daniel--I agree as applied to our system--though life in jail can be even worse. But I'd like to ask about the question in principle. Let's say the society and the Government were basically just, and adequate protections for the innocent were in place. What then?
October 14 at 12:10pm · Unlike · 1
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Sean Robertson Joel, that's a good question, to which I have no coherent answer at the moment.
October 14 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger . . . . .and declared "that was cool." And started asking his siblings how much they would give him if he got himself electrocuted again.
October 14 at 12:20pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson "Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.' " - CCC, 2267
October 14 at 12:15pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Well, given a largely just society, then there are certain crimes that should be punished by death because there is no place in society for such people, and society should be abhorred by these crimes, and it re-establishes an equality where it was violated. Such crimes are: Premeditated murder, perhaps rape-murders, and the like.
October 14 at 12:16pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Death penalty, yes but ooooonly for . . . .
October 14 at 12:19pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Essentially, "Thou shalt not kill", with the exception of where your own life or the lives of those for whom you are responsible are at serious risk. Retributive justice doesn't seem like a good enough reason to take a human life.
October 14 at 12:19pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sean, what do you mean "With the security of modern Western prisons, there's no reason to impose the death penalty, since convicts can be safely locked up for life"
Prisons are criminal training grounds and recruiting locations for gangs.
Not everyone goes to Martha Stewart prison, the general population is a government without the common good.
October 14 at 12:21pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Sean, not for the individual. But the State has care of the common good, and individuals are ordered to the common good.
October 14 at 12:21pm · Unlike · 5
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Joel HF "Thou shalt not kill", and yet Exodus 22:18 says "Wrongdoers thou shalt not suffer to live."
October 14 at 12:21pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger . . . . murder, rape, treachery and . . . .
October 14 at 12:21pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Treason
October 14 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Jeff, I'm assuming that, in lieu of being killed, convicts would be locked up for life. So I'm assuming no parole, etc.
October 14 at 12:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Certainly "Thou shalt not kill" has ALWAYS been understood as "Thou shalt not murder."
October 14 at 12:23pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Remove some from spoiling the remaining apples.
October 14 at 12:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger . . . paedophilia, sodomy and recidivism as a heresiarch.
October 14 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Why put a murderer next to a non murderer?
October 14 at 12:23pm · Like
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Sean Robertson But "Thou shalt not kill" has the underlying principle of the dignity of human life, which dignity even murder convicts still have.
October 14 at 12:24pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Well... Here's a priest, you have 100 days
October 14 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Life in prison, particularly for those in solitary, is pretty hellish, from everything I've read.
October 14 at 12:25pm · Unlike · 2
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Jeff Neill Repent
October 14 at 12:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sean, their dignity has been attenuated by their actions.
October 14 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Daniel, I don't see the harm to the common good a convict locked away in prison does. This isn't the Mystical Body of Christ, where excommunicating the bad apple helps the whole.
October 14 at 12:26pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Joel, I have no doubt that that's true. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished, but I think there's a big difference between a life of isolation and no life at all.
October 14 at 12:28pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil So, even if all the other conditions were met for just use of the death penalty...what about the fact that a large portion of our society is very confused about the value of human life? (Though, most people who are pro-abortion are anti-death penalty.) So, isn't it simpler if our position (in this time and place) is just "no killing humans, period"?
October 14 at 12:28pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill The death penalty is not for non-violent crimes. It is t the end result of a 3 strikes law.
October 14 at 12:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Sean, they aren't isolated.
October 14 at 12:29pm · Like
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Joel HF "By sinning man departs from the order of reason, and consequently falls away from the dignity of his manhood, in so far as he is naturally free, and exists for himself, and he falls into the slavish state of the beasts, by being disposed of according as he is useful to others. This is expressed in Psalm 48:21: "Man, when he was in honor, did not understand; he hath been compared to senseless beasts, and made like to them," and Proverbs 11:29: "The fool shall serve the wise." Hence, although it be evil in itself to kill a man so long as he preserve his dignity, yet it may be good to kill a man who has sinned, even as it is to kill a beast. For a bad man is worse than a beast, and is more harmful, as the Philosopher states (Polit. i, 1 and Ethic. vii, 6)." II-II q 64 a 2 ad 3.
October 14 at 12:29pm · Unlike · 4
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Sean Robertson Jeff, they don't have to be, but that was the example Joel gave.
October 14 at 12:30pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, we were positing a society where that wasn't the case I think.
October 14 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I have, at the least, serious reservations about the death penalty on the pragmatic level. But I struggle to see why in principle it is always unjust.
October 14 at 12:30pm · Unlike · 2
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Sean Robertson I'm not arguing it is always unjust, but that the only circumstances where it is allowable are when the convict poses a serious threat to society.
October 14 at 12:32pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Our hatred for the death penalty is because we have lost all vision of our heavenly destination. Death is not eternal unless one does not repent. And facing the gallows can make it urgent. Is it easier to pray a few days or years for those on death row? And prisons today are the vestibule of hell imo. Not good for reform usually.
October 14 at 12:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Adrw Lng Daniel Lendman what do you think of Rorate's claim that the synod is rigged?
October 14 at 12:32pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Simply put, I don't think man has the authority to take a life. The only exception is that he must put his self-preservation before others, and so self-defence is legitimate.
October 14 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Adrw Lng, rigged is maybe a little strong, but they make a strong case for some funny stuff going on.
October 14 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Why doesn't man (in the general sense, it would have to be the man/men who have the "care of all" of course) have the authority to take life?
October 14 at 12:35pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Did I mention that our prisons are hell? Worse than the death penalty imo.
October 14 at 12:40pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Sean Robertson I have the utmost respect for the authority of St. Thomas, so I'm not quite sure what to do with that text, to be honest. One of his reasons though is the harmfulness of such a man, which harmfulness would be mitigated through imprisonment. Such imprisonment may not have been possible in many circumstances in St. Thomas' day.
October 14 at 12:37pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill But modern super-max prisons are not the "county farm".
October 14 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson It seems to me that just as individuals do not have the authority to take a life except to immediately preserve their own, so also one who has the care of all does not have the authority to take a life except immediately to preserve the lives of those under his care. Such measures are unnecessary if secure imprisonment is a legitimate option.
October 14 at 12:41pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Joel HF Very, very few Americans would be able to understand St. Thomas' reasoning. I think a death penalty policy that no one understands probably does more harm than good to the public.
October 14 at 12:42pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger You people don't have a clue about our prisons. I have read plenty and know people who have done time. They are hell. I would take the death penalty in a heart beat.
October 14 at 12:43pm · Unlike · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil John Ruplinger I don't think "bad prisons" is a justification for the death penalty.
October 14 at 12:44pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil It just means you need to reform your prisons.
October 14 at 12:45pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Catherine Joliat Feil--at the risk of damaging my future career, I don't support the death penalty in current day America. (Subject to revision if I land an interview where this view is detrimental.)
October 14 at 1:08pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil (Which...I have no idea where they would start.)
October 14 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here are my principles! If you don't like them ... I have others.
October 14 at 12:45pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley the death penalty should be applied liberally, but only to witches
October 14 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I also wonder about an additional concern, namely, the distinct possibility of irreversible injustice in the case of the death penalty. Wrongful convictions do happen, and if the convict has been put to death, there is no possibility of righting that wrong.
October 14 at 12:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe SO many wrongful convictions. Often racially based.
October 14 at 12:53pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict 36,006 BOOM BABY
October 14 at 12:55pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger I am not justifying the death penalty. In fact I find that folks can't see its justice perplexing. And am not "arguing" if you notice.
October 14 at 12:56pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng, I think folks at Rorate have frequently manifested that they have largely isolated themselves from the rest of the Church.
The document, "Relatio" is not wholly, but almost wholly, meaningless. It is a list of discussion topics, as Burke pointed out.
Are there creepy progressive homosexual elements in the Vatican that are trying to corrupt everything that comes out? Yes.
Do they have the final say? No.
Another dynamic of this is that this is "Synodality." This is whay Francis wanted. Look to the East and you will see that Synodality is messy and angry, and looks just like what we have here.
At this point, even relatio denied the Real Presence, I would 1. Not be very surprised, and 2. Not worry about the final conclusions of the Synod.
I am confident in Francis's orthodoxy. He is going to allow all the positions to have their say, so that no one can complain that the Church was deaf to their concerns.
October 14 at 12:56pm · Unlike · 4
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe, that point had been brought up above. Joel HF has only been asking about the theoretical possibilities.
October 14 at 12:57pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Daniel Lendman, can retribution be good, or is it only a means to an end? A common strand of Eastern Orthodox thought says that even hellfire is simply how the unworthy experience the divine presence - not retribution as understood by Calvinists.
There are other ways to understand retribution, such as when the Lord says "I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." But that wasn't ultimately bad for St. Paul.
October 14 at 12:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It seemed that we had veered back to the practical reality.
October 14 at 12:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But apparently John Ruplinger wasn't "arguing," just making tendentious comments.
October 14 at 12:58pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Another few quick thoughts about spanking before I leave again-- I am pro-discipline. A lot of the comments about the benefits of spanking seem to be equating spanking with firm discipline and imagining that it is the only example of such. There are plenty of effective ways to discipline without violence that don't involve "emotional manipulation."
October 14 at 1:05pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe And I don't think it's just mothers who should be "uncomfortable" with hitting their children, Adrw.
October 14 at 1:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The examples brought up, of swatting or pinching hands in response to dangerous situations, are extremely mild versions of spanking, if they even count
October 14 at 1:04pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Maybe we're talking about different things.
October 14 at 1:20pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Hitting a child ≠ spanking
October 14 at 1:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Really? How so?
October 14 at 1:21pm · Like
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Joel HF I overheard some people at work this summer debating switches vs. belts. Mostly the debate centered on which one left less of a mark.
October 14 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Have you ever thrown a punch Samantha? That is what men call "hitting"
October 14 at 1:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Hitting is how I experienced spanking, when I was a kid.
October 14 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Come on. Hitting does not equal punching.
October 14 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Slapping is hitting, hitting with a belt or a switch or a wooden spoon-- all hitting
October 14 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe saying otherwise is double-speak
October 14 at 1:24pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I think anything that uses an instrument veers close (if not directly into) the territory of "beating".
October 14 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Spanking is a very localized slap on the rear, very distinct from hitting. At least I've always held there is strong distinction, and there was that understanding in my family. Noone could "hit" eachother.
October 14 at 1:24pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not going to "like" Joel HF's comment, because it's sad, but he's exactly right about what spanking means to a *lot* of people
October 14 at 1:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hitting is the genus
October 14 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I think hitting is both a genus and the name of a species--as "animal" sometimes means "non-rational animals" and sometimes means "the genus including rational and nonrational species"
October 14 at 1:25pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Cf. Michael and Debbie Pearl.
October 14 at 1:25pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The ceremonial aspect of the belt distinguished it from other forms of violence in my past.
October 14 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF I hope Edward Langley counts that as a like! I need the stats people.
October 14 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw-- what you're describing is a form of hitting. It's just one that is a sort of socially accepted form of discipline.
October 14 at 1:26pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia slapping, punching, whacking, all species
October 14 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Is the Pope Catholic?
October 14 at 1:26pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Fine if that's all you mean.
October 14 at 1:26pm · Like
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Adrw Lng There's sense in how I'm using the word too. Everyone would be appalled about a parent talking about "hitting their child" as a form of discipline.
October 14 at 1:27pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia so is the belt the "Specific difference"?
.
October 14 at 1:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Right, because of the socially accepted double speak
October 14 at 1:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe also known as euphemism
October 14 at 1:28pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Also known as language
October 14 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I still don't see why this is wrong.
October 14 at 1:29pm · Like
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Joel HF There are certain cultural milieus in the US where hitting, whipping (like really whipping with a leather belt), and generally beating your child is acceptable and is even encouraged.
October 14 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Spanking simply consignifies the ritual dimension of the punishment.
October 14 at 1:29pm · Like
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Joel HF Adrian Peterson is not without his defenders.
October 14 at 1:30pm · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman If we say "I hit my child with a belt," that can imply any form of hitting in anyplace for any cause.
October 14 at 1:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, those are the same cultural areas where it is okay to "discipline" one's spouse
October 14 at 1:30pm · Like
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Adrw Lng There were never any implements used in my family growing up nor do I view them as essential to the definition of spanking.
October 14 at 1:31pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Because it's violent. Because it's humiliating. Because there are more effective ways to discipline that aren't violent and humiliating. It seems pretty obvious to me.
October 14 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman If we say, "I spank my child with a belt." That implies a measured physical punishment directed at the buttocks region.
October 14 at 1:31pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Why is being violent a problem?
October 14 at 1:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I think the burden of proof that this is ok on those who want to hit their children as a form of punishment.
October 14 at 1:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia violence begets violence
October 14 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes.
October 14 at 1:32pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am perfectly happy showing my children that measured violence in the right context can be and is a good solution.
October 14 at 1:32pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't see that that is necessarily the case Michael Beitia.
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Measured violence against helpless tiny people?
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's terrible
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is why it is measured.
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman They need it.
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman In some cases.
October 14 at 1:33pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't believe that.
October 14 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I think it is also worthwhile to point to the "democracy of our elders."
October 14 at 1:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've been parenting longer than you have, and I haven't come across a case where another consequence wouldn't do just as well or better
October 14 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson What's that I see fluttering away in the wind? Ah, just a tenure track offer. Blowing away, high in the sky, borne by tNETty airs...
October 14 at 1:35pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman It cannot be denied that by and large in the history of the world, measured phyiscal forms of punishment have been accepted and encouraged.
October 14 at 1:34pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, well, when I look at the parenting of my ancestors, I don't feel the slightest bit inclined to give them a vote
October 14 at 1:35pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I had the belt ceremony. My dad used to playfully snap the belt which in itself was a crime deterent. But we actually got the belt so rarely. I could probably number the times on my fingers. And my dad never showed anger as I recall.
October 14 at 1:35pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Here is a question, returning to DP, how is the DP retributive? If I steal an apple, I can give it back or some thing can be taken from me and returned to the offended, whether the community or the individual. But so-called capital crimes cannot be re-balanced. So how is the DP retributive justice? Daniel Lendman Joel HF Samantha Cohoe Adrw Lng
October 14 at 1:36pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.theatlantic.com/.../why-we-stopped.../250422/
Why We Stopped Spanking
I'd like to think that there's some alternative to raising kids in a sort of well-padded, benevolent police state...
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MEGAN MCARDLE
October 14 at 1:36pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is nonsense Samantha Cohoe.
October 14 at 1:37pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I can't count how many spanking debates I've seen on Facebook. They never really go anywhere.
October 14 at 1:38pm · Unlike · 2
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Adrw Lng ^ THIS
October 14 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Our ancestors were, more often than not, better than we are today. They were more mature and more capable.
October 14 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, the TNET never really goes anywhere.
October 14 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That's its ratio entis.
October 14 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Next up: circumcision! Vaccines!
October 14 at 1:39pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe I'm talking about my ancestors, Daniel. parents, grand-parents, great-grandparents. They may have been more capable in many ways, but they were crap parents.
October 14 at 1:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Aaron Dunkel: life for a life?
October 14 at 1:39pm · Like
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Adrw Lng Everyone carry on in good faith as a parent, Daniel congrats on getting Samantha riled up again and for the bump in post #
October 14 at 1:39pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF We already had a bit on circumcision, wherein Joshua Kenz said it was mutilation or sacrilege, depending on the motivation (he did leave an exception for "medically necessary cases" iirc).
October 14 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not riled up. There would be a lot more exclamation points if I were riled up.
October 14 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Don't circumcise. Do vaccinate.
October 14 at 1:41pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Solved!
October 14 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Glad we're agreed.
October 14 at 1:42pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Not vaccinating is a sin! (joke)
October 14 at 1:42pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF But, if Matthew J. Peterson was losing tenure track offers before, I think circumcision is the way to ensure it for good.
October 14 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Big Angry Lendman, it is!
October 14 at 1:43pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Look at us all agreeing about a controversial topic!
October 14 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.slate.com/.../intactivists_online_a_fringe...
How a Fringe Group Turned the Internet Against Circumcision
There are facts about circumcision—but you won’t find...
SLATE.COM
October 14 at 1:44pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Life for a life is not up-building. I speculate that justice ought to be up-building. Besides, if one for whom guilt has been ascertained for a capital crime could receive capital punishment, wouldn't he also be able to be enslaved, either to the community or to the offended individual. He owes his very life under that argument. Why is slavery forbidden and the death penalty accepted?
October 14 at 1:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Joliat Feil: I wouldn't be surprised if they did...
October 14 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson was it your tenured track position that blew away, or mine?
October 14 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Why is it not up-building, Aaron? Remember, the murdered person is not the only one who suffered the ill. We do not live in a vacuum.
October 14 at 1:46pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Intactivists are crazy. But it's an elective surgery, and my sons won't be getting it.
October 14 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger non spanking has clearly led to the most respectful, industrious, and least narcisistic generation eva.
October 14 at 1:49pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel I know. But retributive justice is a returning....Taking from the guilty is not a returning to the offended. How does executing a raper return virginity to a virgin?
October 14 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Everybody go get your boosters! Talk to you later!
October 14 at 1:47pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The returning does not have to be precisely as it is in the case of theft, Aaron. What is essential is that the "imbalance" caused by the unjust act in society and in persons, be restored.
October 14 at 1:49pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The good thief new he ought to die.
October 14 at 1:49pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill My grandfather would threaten me with being take. To the doctor for a a shot if I didn't behave.
Vaccinations as punishment?!?! (He was ahead of his time)
October 14 at 1:55pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/.../10/the-synod.html...
Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: The Synod
LITURGICALNOTES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY FR JOHN HUNWICKE
October 14 at 2:02pm · Like
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Jeff Neill When a person seeks "negative attention" and doesn't receive it, they act further and further out of the known boundaries.
When the existence of boundaries (natural law) is eradicated, how does one find direction?
October 14 at 2:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel I understand that there are some crimes for which retribution is only available via participation or analog. But if that is the case, why resort to DP? The necessity of material defense no longer is part of the decision to use DP in developed and some developing countries?
October 14 at 2:22pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I highly recommend against using the D P acronym, because of urban dictionary.
October 14 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Well, Aaron, as I argued above, there is an reestablishment of equality for the capital crimes committed. Imperfect, perhaps, but still something.
The imperfect quality of this reestablished equality is the reason that it is not unjust to not use the death penalty. There are many ways to reestablish imperfect equality, DP just is, in principle, best in the cases of certain grave crimes.
October 14 at 2:32pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I should probably point out that I am not arguing that political authority does not have the power to execute criminals guilty of capital crimes. But, I am arguing that there are more parts to the practical syllogism used in justifying imposing capital punishment against the guilty.
October 14 at 2:36pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman In this we agree, Aaron.
October 14 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Only a few wasted man-days of labor away from 40k comments! tNET gets richer as the world gets poorer....
October 14 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Capital punishment is only defensible as a pragmatic solution to endangering the common people. Where the danger is removed, it is purely punitive.
October 14 at 2:53pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland The only thing I've found helps to convince people not to spank their children is their own personal experience combined with very close friends mentioning their own personal experience with spanking. From my experience and my friends, I think that even the most basic spanking is a very bad idea, but everyone has to learn that the hard way, or not.
October 14 at 2:55pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF What's wrong with a purely punitive punishment @Michael Beitia?
October 14 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland This was posted recently by a friend who had a transformation to non-spanking: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../13/spanking_n_5977328.html
Why Spanking Doesn't Work
When you’re a parent at the end of your rope with your kids, it can be a dangerous set of circumstances for...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
October 14 at 2:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if you're me, the children will very soon be larger than you are. Best not to make that might makes right lesson....
October 14 at 2:57pm · Like · 5
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Max Summe I wouldn't trust anti-spanking articles from huffpo....
October 14 at 2:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Joel, I love alliteration. thanks
October 14 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland http://www.positiveparentingsolutions.com/.../spanking...
Spanking from a Child’s Perspective - Positive Parenting Solutions
To spank or not to spank. It’s a passionately debated...
POSITIVEPARENTINGSOLUTIONS.COM
October 14 at 2:58pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland From the previous article: "When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor’s wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child, she didn’t believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day, when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking–the first in his life. She told him that he would have to go outside himself and find a switch for her to hit him with.
The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, “Mama, I couldn’t find a switch, but here’s a rock that you can throw at me.”
October 14 at 2:59pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Rectificatory capital punishment...? How would that work?
52 life sentences.
October 14 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Also capital punishment is a terrible idea, since with no matter how much technology, the state will always kill innocent people by accident. Not worth it at all. Even holding an innocent person on death row for 20 years (which happens not never), is a hideous injustice.
October 14 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe So catherine - is there ever a circumstance where you could see spanking as being an appropriate disciplinary measure?
October 14 at 3:00pm · Like
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Max Summe or are you just against it simply speaking?
October 14 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeff - it doesn't
October 14 at 3:01pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Don't worry, OJ was innocent.
October 14 at 3:01pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Simply speaking, from my own experience being spanked, watching my parents realize what a bad idea it is halfway through (for which I'm grateful for my younger siblings' sake), and watching my own friends raise their children. I should clarify that I'm talking about non-abuse levels of spanking. No objects used, not spanking in anger -- It doesn't matter, it still hurts to have the people who are supposed to be protecting you causing intentional pain.
October 14 at 4:41pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Beitia, you don't know that, it has t been tried yet.
October 14 at 3:02pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe See? It's not just crazy heretic me.
October 14 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how can you correct what you've just killed? Jeff, it is a contradiction in terms
October 14 at 3:04pm · Like
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Joel HF Why does punishment necessarily have to be about correcting the individual?
October 14 at 3:05pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia concern for souls
October 14 at 3:06pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's why I correct my children. to improve them. Not to "show them who's the boss"
October 14 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and all you folks with younger children, just remember:
little children, little problems; big children, big problems. Don't screw it up.
October 14 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel Im willing to raffle my services as surrogate spanker
October 14 at 3:09pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^disturbing
October 14 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng LMAO
October 14 at 3:10pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia not disturbing, funny
October 14 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe funny, in a disturbing way. I know Drunkel better than you do.
October 14 at 3:11pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson 50 shades of Thomism
October 14 at 3:12pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia I'm pretty sure we've never met.
October 14 at 3:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (pretty sure)
October 14 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, you'd remember.
October 14 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel we will have met at some time
October 14 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia have you what?
October 14 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Somewhat surprised that no one took a hard-line stance against the DP. But I think w/o some idea of retributive justice, the DP doesn't make sense under any set of circumstances. We don't, and never have, punished people purely to correct them.
None of which is to say that in today's world the DP makes much sense under the circumstances. But then again, neither does the American attitude towards prisons.
October 14 at 3:23pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm hard line. No capital punishment.
October 14 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.amazon.com/Discipl.../dp/0679752552/ref=sr_1_1...
Discipline & Punish: The Birth of the Prison
In this brilliant work, the most influential philosopher...
AMAZON.COM
October 14 at 3:30pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill But we have the technology to bring them back.
October 14 at 3:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia are you suggesting a zombie apocalypse, Jeff?
October 14 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Not the apocalypse part
October 14 at 3:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ah, just zombies. got it
October 14 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill But 5 minutes dead may be a suitable short-term capital punishment
October 14 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hey... I'm pulling back the curtain..... And welcome back.
Don't do it again or we'll put you in time out for an hour.
October 14 at 3:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe How about this, for a somewhat more reflective argument against spanking: children are completely dependent on their parents, and we have near total power over them. For that reason, we have to be extremely careful how we exercise that power. Why cling to violent methods of punishment, when non-violent ones are just as effective, and don't run the risk of damaging and alienating your children?
October 14 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund The death penalty only makes sense if one realizes the transcendence of the common good, and the fact that ruler who has the care of that good is a minister of God, and receives authority from God.
October 14 at 3:34pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Samantha, what are "non-violent" methods of punishment?
October 14 at 3:35pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Consequences, time-outs, time-ins, removal of priviledges, stern "no," removal from the situation
October 14 at 3:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Wall sits!!
(I admire this technique most)
October 14 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe good one!
October 14 at 3:36pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe for older kids
October 14 at 3:36pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Define "older".....
October 14 at 3:38pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I use time outs and time ins the most, for my four year old.
October 14 at 3:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe My 1st grader doesn't ever need much more than a stern word, at this point, but he's a good kid.
October 14 at 3:39pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I understand, you guys have knee-jerk negative reactions to things like "non-violent punishments" that sound "modern" or "politically correct," but actually, the middle ages didn't get everything right.
October 14 at 3:40pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple "There is nothing better for a child's self-esteem than a pat on the back, provided that it is given hard enough, often enough... and low enough."
October 14 at 3:41pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund "But if you do evil, then be afraid, since it is not for nothing that that minister wears a sword, since he is God's minister, vindictive in anger against the evildoer." (Rom 13:4)
October 14 at 3:41pm · Unlike · 2
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Joel HF Well, my kids are perfect and have never had to have any form of punishment. So this is all moot for me. Interesting that you guys seem to have such wicked children.
October 14 at 3:42pm · Like · 4
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Joel HF OH NOES! A JOCOSE LIE!1!!!!!1!
October 14 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Sam, I don't get the impression that you're attempting to understand our position. Do you really think all the previous generations of parents who used judicious physical punishment were abusive? That sounds pretty ideological to me.
October 14 at 3:45pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I highly recommend everyone read this post and what it links to and the fallout debate as regardless of where you stand it will give depth and better shape to this debate:
http://www.theatlantic.com/.../why-we-stopped.../250422/
Why We Stopped Spanking
I'd like to think that there's some alternative to raising kids in a sort of well-padded, benevolent police state...
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MEGAN MCARDLE
October 14 at 3:46pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I highly recommend everyone read this post and what it links to and the fallout debate as regardless of where you stand it will give depth and better shape to this debate:
http://www.theatlantic.com/.../why-we-stopped.../250422/
Why We Stopped Spanking
I'd like to think that there's some alternative to raising kids in a sort of well-padded, benevolent police state...
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MEGAN MCARDLE
October 14 at 3:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill I remember this one time in the Middle Ages Henry VIII made his own church for selfish reasons and generations have been following him "just because"
October 14 at 3:46pm · Like · 1
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Erik Bootsma Our rule in the house is that spanking is only for outright insubordination and that said act would put them in distinct danger.
October 14 at 3:48pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I once saw a woman spank a chihuahua for going in the street. I couldn't help but laugh
October 14 at 3:50pm · Like · 5
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Adrw Lng Aaron you are winning tNet currently
October 14 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I read it Matthew. The bourgousie have raised a generation of spoiled smarty pants. I agree. I don't think corporal punishment is the only way and it can be abused. But also agree with Adrw' s point above.
October 14 at 3:51pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I haven't actually called anyone abusive, although I'll admit my particular ancestors were
October 14 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw, people have been screwing up their kids for as long as there have people. I don't see why we should assume our ancestors had it right.
October 14 at 3:56pm · Like · 2
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Hunter Baker Assertion! Assertion! ASSERTION!!!!!
October 14 at 3:57pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel Joel HF, regarding hardline and capital punishment, my introduction of the additional premises into the consideration of its use begins to become a hardline position, for all intents and purposes. Add in Pater Edmund's caveat, and there is a hardline position for all modern secular governments.
October 14 at 3:57pm · Like
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Joel HF Amongst the yuppies who are my neighbors, I see people screwing up their children by not having any sort of discipline system. Over punishing kids is bad, regardless of the method of punishment, but not disciplining kids is also bad.
October 14 at 3:57pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Joel, of course
October 14 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Adam and Eve were horrible parents.
Their kids killed each other out of jealousy and anger.
What techniques did they use?
October 14 at 3:59pm · Like
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Pater Edmund I still don't understand what is meant by non-violent punishment. You gave a bunch of examples, but I wasn't able to see what the specific difference separating them from violent punishment was. Is prison non-violent?
October 14 at 3:59pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel I think, by violent is meant corporal. All punishment does violence in some way, if even only to the will
October 14 at 4:00pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund, I was referring to the spanking conversation, not the death penalty one
October 14 at 4:01pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Sticks and stones may break my bones but words commit me to a lifetime of therapy.
October 14 at 4:02pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Pater Edmund Do you remember that we had an argument about corporal punishment in our freshman seminar? (I can't remember what book we were discussing, though.)
October 14 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Let's take it up a notch--what about caning as an alternative to jail time (ala Singapore)?
October 14 at 4:04pm · Unlike · 2
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Pater Edmund Catherine, sadly I don't remember.
October 14 at 4:04pm · Like
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John Ruplinger re: Matthew's link, I can verify it as parent and teacher. "Emerging sense of self entitlement" check. Helicopter parents, check. Need for police state and padded cells (esp. in extreme cases of the first two), check.
October 14 at 4:04pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil (I don't mean that Pater Edmund and I were arguing; I think we were on the same side.)
October 14 at 4:05pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Have to go, but I just want to remark that on my reading the Foucault book linked by Michael Beitia does not support Beitia's position. The conclusion I drew was that so-called barbaric punishments were actually better than panopticism (I never actually made it to the end thought, so maybe the argument takes an unexpected turn).
October 14 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil I think you said something that assumed we could all conceive of an acceptable, limited form of corporal punishment, I assented, and Miss Catherine Ryland took umbrage.
October 14 at 4:08pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman Animals even use corporal punishment. Animals don't over think it.
October 14 at 4:08pm · Like
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John Ashman I was totally against until my first daughter.
October 14 at 4:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger panopticism. I actually had an argument with friends advocating this. Please, just give me the cane instead.
October 14 at 4:09pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Question: isn't there a physical & psychological aspect of deprivation with any kind of punishment? How is withholding food from a child (perhaps after refusing to eat a meal) or isolation (timeout) or raising your voice ("NO" = ear spanking?) not subject to the same kinds of criticism? Just because parental agency is less material?
October 14 at 4:20pm · Edited · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Read both that article posted above AND the Slate article it refers to: http://www.slate.com/.../spanking_is_on_the_decline_why...
Why Are Fewer Parents Hitting Their Kids?
In the wake of the recent video showing a Texas judge...
SLATE.COM
October 14 at 4:12pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil My impression of arguments about discipline remains the same: they tend to get very emotional, and one's opinions are usually shaped by what kind of upbringing one had. I have encountered children who behave well and those who behave badly, and what seems to matter most is how temperate and consistent the parents are, regardless of the particular method of discipline.
October 14 at 4:19pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ashman My daughter gets a spanking... And a hug...because her attitude changes 180.
October 14 at 4:14pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Hunter Baker: "...we have already sufficient indications that it will happen in this as in all former cases of great tNET discussion. A torrent of angry and malignant passions will be let loose. To judge from the conduct of the opposite parties, we shall be led to conclude that they will mutually hope to evince the justness of their opinions, and to increase the number of their converts by the *loudness* of their declamations and the *bitterness* of their invectives."
October 14 at 4:15pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Pater, I haven't claimed a position for you to be against. If by "against" you mean in full support of the rapid growth of clinical incarceration, then I guess you're against me.
October 14 at 4:15pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I can agree to that, Catherine.
October 14 at 4:15pm · Like
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John Ashman You punish to the child. They all respond differently. It is not a matter of who is right unless someone takes a blanket approach like government.
October 14 at 4:17pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think hunter baker's criticism is just, in this case
October 14 at 4:17pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Whoever he is
October 14 at 4:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #nohunterbakergnosis?
October 14 at 4:18pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Why are violent forms of punishment bad?
(at the risk of losing another tenured track position)
October 14 at 4:19pm · Unlike · 1
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John Ashman I'm a hunter/griller.
October 14 at 4:19pm · Like
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John Ashman Watching COPS makes me think there isn't enough kids getting a smack down by their parents.
October 14 at 4:21pm · Like
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Hunter Baker Actually, I just wanted to participate in the never ending thread and generated a comment suitable to most online arguments.
October 14 at 4:21pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe I have to go make soup with Davey. I'm not saying all violent punishment is bad, necessarily. Just violent punishment of children
October 14 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I'll think about this and come back latet
October 14 at 4:23pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I don't see why children should be wholly preserved from violence.
October 14 at 4:23pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Nor do I see why children cannot experience violence at the hands of those who have care of them.
October 14 at 4:23pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes violence is an answer... perhaps even the best answer.
October 14 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman Concupiscence is often best remedied (to the extent that it can be) by some kind of violence.
October 14 at 4:25pm · Unlike · 2
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John Ruplinger Matthew, I read it. Seems that after a ten year study, moderate spanking is ok. Then it turned to comparing alternative discipline to beating the living sh*t out of your kids. Hhmmmm.
October 14 at 4:26pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, I linked the article that you did above from HuffPo and answered its concerns.
The article starts out on the premise that spanking is only used when one is at the "end of the rope." If this is where you are, there are other problems. Spanking is not something one does out of desperation.
October 14 at 4:27pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Like all discipline, spanking should be done as a consequence, not as a "end of the Rope". Honestly, without spanking I don't think my parents would have been able to get too far with disciplining me... I was too stubborn.
October 14 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The Book of Faces says Hunter Baker is an Associate Provost and Associate Professor of Political Science at Union University and Writer at Large and Co-Founder at The City, Samantha Cohoe. A Baylor dude. You and Caleb Cohoe would likely have some interesting discussions with him, I imagine.
He helped create this publication along with other heretics:
http://www.civitate.org/
http://hunterbaker.wordpress.com/about/
The City Online
The City Online, a publication of Houston Baptist University
CIVITATE.ORG
October 14 at 4:30pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick St Thomas talks about this...
October 14 at 4:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Catherine Ryland, The article then lists three concerns at the end. I relpy in the following:
Ad 1. This objection does not follow because one ought not to use spanking to calm one's child.
Ad 2. There is nothing wrong (at least not obviously) with teaching children that measured violence in certain circumstances is a legitimate response- even a good response.
Ad. 3 Experience shows that it does work long term... unless of course it is used in some sort of desperation move.
October 14 at 4:31pm · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman But, of course, different kids are different. A furrowed brow is enough to make some kids break down in tears.
October 14 at 4:32pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, I like this Hunter Baker already.
October 14 at 4:34pm · Like
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Adrw Lng I also think proportionality plays a role here. Does spanking make sense as punishment for not taking a nap? Nope. Does it makes sense as punishment for angry biting? Yep.
October 14 at 4:35pm · Unlike · 3
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John Ruplinger Not to mention that God punishes us with corporal punishment often.
October 14 at 4:36pm · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yes and yes.
October 14 at 4:37pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Hunter Baker appears to be the sort of serious person I've been hoping would not come around and witness my tNET malfeasance.
October 14 at 4:37pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng I'm so glad I'm out of academia so I can participate in tNet with impunity
October 14 at 4:37pm · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman I hope Dr. Baker comes to stay.
October 14 at 4:37pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman We could do for a bit of class.
October 14 at 4:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, me too. At this point it's the only way I could hope to win him over.
October 14 at 4:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman TNET, however, is the great equalizer.
October 14 at 4:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman All who enter, fall.
October 14 at 4:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe btw, Big Angry, I hate everything you're saying. I'll say more later.
October 14 at 4:39pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is kind of like a Q&A at TAC... ain't nobody getting out unscathed.
October 14 at 4:39pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I know.
October 14 at 4:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I am going to go to bed.
October 14 at 4:39pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel I just want to point out that parents who don't spank miss out on the amusing cleverness of kids wearing 5 pairs of underwear under 2 pairs of sweatpants and actually think their parents have no idea
October 14 at 4:40pm · Unlike · 7
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, when you do respond, please note that I am not arguing for any imperatives about how children "should" be raised. I am only, and principally arguing that one cannot and should not rule out spanking and other forms of corporal punishment absolutely.
October 14 at 4:45pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng ^ I resonate this distinction
October 14 at 4:47pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew McCall-- you're a psychologist, what do you think of spanking?
October 14 at 5:12pm · Like
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Aaron Dunkel Adrw, I distinctify your resonation
October 14 at 5:13pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Did my tag not work? Matthew McCall
October 14 at 5:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Greg Benedict
October 14 at 5:20pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF tNET, career killer.
October 14 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley http://1.bp.blogspot.com/.../IlxHcqAbyo0/s1600/descent.jpg
1.BP.BLOGSPOT.COM
October 14 at 5:23pm · Like · 5 · Remove Preview
Samantha Cohoe Ok, soups going, kids are lego-ing.
October 14 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Let's be honest, here, nothing that really passes for an argument has been made on either side of the spanking discussion.
October 14 at 5:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mostly, we've clarified terms and positions, and lobbed a few rhetorical grenades back and forth.
October 14 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe The closest thing pro-spankers have to an argument, is the claim that parents have always spanked their children, so it must not be too bad.
October 14 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe To which I reply, people have done a lot of things, many of them bad. We have to use our own moral sense to decide how to raise our children.
October 14 at 5:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That being said, if your parents spanked you in a way that you are convinced was helpful to your upbringing, that's a solid reason to continue the tradition in your own family. Assuming you're reflective enough about your own experience to be able to discern what was helpful to you and what wasn't.
October 14 at 5:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger St. John Bosco did not use corporal punishment with his boys. St. John Baptist de la Salle did in great moderation. Both are educators whom I have studied and respect. I think there is not that much disparity in this argument really.
October 14 at 5:34pm · Edited · Like
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Craig M. White No one can know the Awesome Thread, and I have only followed about 8 comments above this, but I think spanking is a position to be held in reserve and rarely used, but occasionally threatened. A last resort, like the use of force by a policeman or a nation. In its favor is the fact that it does no lasting damage (if not applied in rage), and is quickly over, unlike many punishments that drag on and on.
October 14 at 5:31pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe That is kind of a big assumption, though. If you had great parents, who spanked because that was the custom, you'd be hard pressed to see the negative effects of spanking, because they would be very minor, and very obscured by all the good parenting going on. I'm confident those of you I know in real life are the kind of parents whose good parenting will cover up the mild bad effects "measured violence" might have.
October 14 at 5:32pm · Like
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Craig M. White I think I prefer to receive or administer a brief bit of manageable pain and humiliation over hours of boredom.
October 14 at 5:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe "liking" because Craig M. White is here, not because I entirely agree with him. : )
October 14 at 5:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Craig M. White-- you're an adult, though. Child psychology is what is relevant here.
October 14 at 5:33pm · Like
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Craig M. White I guess it depends on the kid. I think I felt that way as a kid and a lot of kids agree.
October 14 at 5:34pm · Like · 1
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Craig M. White But I think there is something pitiful about seeing parents who always negotiate with their children and have no last resort no matter how badly the child behaves.
October 14 at 5:34pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe It's really not about what kids prefer, though.
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not advocating endless negotiation.
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it is about what is best. and how to instill proper behavior.
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like · 2
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Craig M. White Of course, being me, I think the just war theory ad bellum criteria apply to the use of force against children. ;-0
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia but you don't call in a drone strike on your kids, right?
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Michael Beitia-- exactly
October 14 at 5:35pm · Like
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Craig M. White Nor on anyone, probably, although that's another discussion.
October 14 at 5:36pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia you're really helping my "like" count....
October 14 at 5:36pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you brought up just war, not me
October 14 at 5:36pm · Like · 1
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Craig M. White just cause, right intention (aim of a child peacefully part of the family), "sovereign" authority, proportionality, last resort, reasonable chance of success (one of several reasons why spanking teens doesn't make sense).
October 14 at 5:38pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe yeah, I can't keep up my policy of not liking your comments in the face of so many comments that agree with me, Michael
October 14 at 5:39pm · Edited · Like
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Craig M. White I did say ad bellum
October 14 at 5:38pm · Like
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Craig M. White spanking as analogy to war: analogy. limited use of force, rarely justified, guided by strict criteria
October 14 at 5:39pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Dunkel I have fond memories of when the wooden spoon broke
October 14 at 5:39pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I guess the "reasonable chance of success" part is where the problem is. If all you mean by "success" is controlling children's behavior, then sure, spanking provides a reasonable chance of success.
October 14 at 5:39pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Dunkel it was another laughing moment
October 14 at 5:40pm · Like · 2
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Craig M. White Success in jwt is always in achieving the overall aim. The overall aim in just spanking theory is to instill good habits in the child. Losing your temper and spanking the child on any occasion, or spanking often, is failure by definition to me.
October 14 at 5:43pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Craig M. White But on rare occasions, not in rage, with an obstreporous child refusing to listen--I think it may contribute to the child's ability to practice self-control.
October 14 at 5:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think this question is one we can't really answer without some expert testimony. But I do not and have not ever found it necessary, have deeply regretted spanking on the few times I've spanked my children, and have experience from my childhood that strongly suggests habitual use of spanking is bad for kids.
October 14 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger de la Salle's method of using the ferule measuredly on the palm of a student for specific infraction without anger and only by a superior to be received without complaint is instructive. As is Bosco's policy of not using it on the otherwise street urchins he cared for. Those are two old alternatives, both acceptable imo.
October 14 at 5:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Craig M. White Total agreement on the last clause. I have found the threat useful on occasion (as a last resort), have sometimes regretted doing it (when I did it badly), tried to make it very rare indeed.
October 14 at 5:46pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Samantha, of course habitual use is bad, and your feeling bad when you did use it is natural as well.
For some reason the phrase, " this is going to hurt me more than hurt you" accurately describes the experience.
October 14 at 5:47pm · Like
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Craig M. White Samantha, if negotiation is not endless, that implies a last resort of the use of force at least to move the child, doesn't it?
October 14 at 5:49pm · Like
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Jeff Neill "Preemptive strike"
Not an effective discipline technique.
October 14 at 5:51pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe There are effective consequences to end negotiation. Time out is my preferred one for over 3, time in for under 3.
October 14 at 5:56pm · Like
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Craig M. White If they refuse to go, you have to put them there, right?
October 14 at 6:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yep.
October 14 at 6:23pm · Like
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Jeff Neill If they get up and leave time out, and they refuse to go back of their own volition, You move them back as well?
October 14 at 6:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ladies and gentlemen, in case you're just joining us, TNET was giving dating advice but is now talking about spanking.
Tune in tomorrow - same rotten time, same rotten channel.
October 14 at 6:49pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict I have a question for TNET. Who is this Rorschach guy, and why does he paint so many pictures of my parents fighting?
October 14 at 6:54pm · Like · 8
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Isak Benedict Not sure if it's relevant, but I was infrequently spanked as a boy, and I pretty much always deserved it...plus it totally worked, now I'm a model citizen obvs like omg
October 14 at 6:55pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict "Does the Times now espouse flaccid attitudes toward the sanctity of marriage?"
http://www.nationalreview.com/.../great-catholic-cave...
George Weigel - The Great Catholic Cave-In that Wasn’t
For the better part of a half century, the New York...
NATIONALREVIEW.COM
October 14 at 7:00pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Weigel will do backflips to avoid admitting there is any problem.
October 14 at 7:01pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I know, I just love that quotation
October 14 at 7:01pm · Like
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Joel HF Mueller meanwhile: "INDEGNA, VERGOGNOSA, COMPLETAMENTE SBAGLIATA"
October 14 at 7:01pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I know quite well we're in the times of the Great Chastisement
October 14 at 7:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING
October 14 at 7:03pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So I'm thinking about selling my theremin - anyone interested? I haven't touched it in years...
October 14 at 7:04pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF "The whole world groaned and was amazed to find itself Episcopalian"--Neo-Jerome.: http://dprice.blogspot.com/.../the-whole-world-groaned...
Dyspeptic Mutterings: The whole world groaned and was amazed to find itself...
DPRICE.BLOGSPOT.COM
October 14 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Good one, Isak Benedict
October 14 at 7:04pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick http://taylormarshall.com/.../thomas-aquinas-whether...
So this is fun
Thomas Aquinas: Whether spanking children is lawful
In the last few years, there have been several spoof...
TAYLORMARSHALL.COM
October 14 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict http://www.firstthings.com/.../2014/10/a-pastoral-failure-1
A Pastoral Failure
Iwas recently accused of (actually, praised for, but it seemed to me an accusation) supporting . . . .
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 14 at 7:51pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz 1. Daniel Lendman I tagged you because you claimed one could get baptised for a woman.
2. The primary purpose of punishment is retributive justice. One of the most problematic aspects of John Paul II is his attempt to recast it in terms of defense of society. That was NEVER the point. While I think a) inequities in the justice system and b) the general culture of death give great reasons to opposed the death penalty in practice, it remains the case that when it is for a grave crime and guilt has been ascertained with oral certitude, the State has a right to put the offender to death. Whatever reasons of prudence we may argue against that, it remains the prerogative of the State.
3. Spanking, and use of the belt, is very effective, especially with younger children. My dad always did it in a calm and judicious manner with great effect (my mom would get angry and backhand you, so we dismissed her as temperamental). Scripture supports corporeal punishment here too.
4. Joel HF, to observe circumcision as a religious thing is sacrilege and superstition. To do it for medical reasons is different, but there is a distinction there. It constitutes (slight) mutilation. If someone has a particular medical issue that is treatable by it, that is justifiable. To practice it generally, because of "hygeine" or in general as preventative medicine is debatable. Catholic moralists have long debated whether surgery can be done for purely prophylactic reasons. Classic examples are removing the appendix, when one is already having surgery for something else under the rationale that it is better to do it then, since you are already under the knife, then to have to cut you open again in the future. And removing the tonsils, and circumcision. I will not tell parents what to decide on this issue, but I will insist that they recognize the moral questions to gives rise to. I reject purely prophylactic surgery. But you can disagree. I just think there is a moral obligation to take it seriously as a moral issue. To "be like your father" or to be "attractive" to women are not sufficient grounds. And there is risk, even if minimal (the major case that was used to promote transgenderism was actually a resultant of a boy who had his member cut off during a bot6ched circumcision, so the doctors surgically made him female...this is left out and he was presented as a girl who was helped by being allowed to live as a boy years later, ignoring the fact that he was always a boy...)
October 14 at 8:31pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz WRT to the Synodal document
"Undignified, Shameful, Completely Wrong!" The document should be rejected by Catholics and ripped to shreds.
Shameful indeed.
October 14 at 8:40pm · Like · 5
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Jeff Neill Something something something lobby has been formally recognized.
October 14 at 9:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Augustine of Hiphop wishes to address our fears:
https://twitter.com/hiphopaugus.../status/521708349315100672
Augustine of Hiphop on Twitter: "if you're incensed at God because ya life seems...
TWITTER.COM|BY AUGUSTINE OF HIPHOP
October 14 at 9:14pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Isak, you wouldn't happen to have a Badgermin?
October 14 at 9:20pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No but I have a Guitaardvark
October 14 at 9:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I might be interested in that....
October 14 at 9:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6eTdPG3jo8
The Badgermin played properly
This video was previously uploaded in 2012, but the featured musician has politely requested to become...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wow
October 14 at 9:24pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Hey guys. What's new in these parts?
October 14 at 9:26pm · Like
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Isak Benedict TNET knoweth not the new, nor doth TNET know the parts. TNET knoweth only the quantum eternal
October 14 at 9:31pm · Like · 2
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Dylan Naegele Why should the state, merely a collection of fallible humans like the rest of us, have the power to kill some of its members?
A good rule to keep in mind when giving the state powers—if you don't want your worst enemies wielding a certain power, then the state should not have it, as your enemies will end up running the state at some point. This is especially true in a strongly democratic society like ours.
October 14 at 9:59pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiShjSrGsPk
Willie Nelson & Calexico Señor Tales Of Yankee Power
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 9:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What state in history has never killed anyone?
October 14 at 10:00pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yes, but the authority to kill "their own" is a populist deceit.
October 14 at 10:01pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele What state in history which conducted executions has never abused that power?
October 14 at 10:01pm · Like · 1
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Jonathan Watson "Why should the state, merely a collection of fallible humans like the rest of us, have the power to kill some of its members?"
We as individuals have the power to kill in self-defense - indeed, perhaps the duty at times. So may the State, which is why it must be limited, as the just war theory limits, in power and scope by definable norms.
October 14 at 10:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Sure, Dylan. But that argument could be applied to any power the "state" possesses, or any other group or individual.
October 14 at 10:04pm · Like · 2
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Dylan Naegele The death penalty, my dear Watson, is hardly self-defense.
October 14 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
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Jonathan Watson On the contrary, history is replete with prisoners who have killed from within prison through mob hits, who murder guards and fellow inmates, and so on.
If rare, nonetheless these are cases where people may be executed. I cannot posit that, just because other prisoners are the ones murdered, they are less entitled to defense of life.
October 14 at 10:07pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKlmc8HpkI4
JOAN BAEZ ~ I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine ~
Joan Baez ~ I DREAMED I SAW SAINT AUGUSTINE...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 10:07pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele Forgive me, I'd forgotten that pre-crime was a crime. Oh wait...
October 14 at 10:07pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson Apologies - your statement was too subtle for me.
October 14 at 10:08pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele We don't execute people for crimes which they might commit, we execute them for crimes which they already have committed.
October 14 at 10:10pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Regardless of what you think about the death penalty, it should be admitted that it certainly can be seen as self-defense when you have people who are wanton killers. Imagine, for instance, living on the frontier way out in the country in a small town back in whatever day and town, and a serial killer is caught and found.
It costs resources and risks the lives of multiple others (both guards and fellow prisoners) to keep this person alive.
October 14 at 10:10pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efgKyNIpof4
October 14 at 10:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGpzUKCjN5Y
I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine - John Doe Cover
Part of the I'm Not There Soundtrack - I don't own the...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 10:12pm · Like
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Dylan Naegele Perhaps. But are we a frontier town? And the cost of executing someone is far higher than the cost of jailing them for life. Even if it weren't cheaper, should cost be the determining factor as to whether to kill someone? That's hardly a Christian approach.
October 14 at 10:12pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think that seeing the death penalty as defense was the most problematic thing I have seen with this issue. It is a tertiary end, and justice must be a measure here (iow if it is not justifiable under retributive justice, other benefits, like protecting society are moot)
Naegele has endorsed anarchism, via slippery slope fallacy. You may argue that, in the concrete, we don't want the government doing X because there are god reasons to believe that the risk of abuse outweighs possible benefits. But your universal rule there would just mean all government is bad. And I find that position pernicious
I don't want my enemies to take my money, to be able to arrest or judge me, or really have any authority whatsoever. Therefore I don't want the government to have any authority...see where that leads?
October 14 at 10:13pm · Like · 3
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Dominic Bolin PSA: "As a consequence, speaking about the appearances, they do not speak correspondingly with the appearances. And the reason is they do not rightly take up their first principles: they had certain predetermined views, and were resolved to bring everything into line with them. . . For these men, on account of their love of those principles, seem to do the same as those maintaining positions in disputations. They endure everything that follows as though having true principles; as if there were not some principles which ought to be judged from their results, and especially from the end result." -- De Caelo III.7
Of course, this is not peculiar to Aristotle's time. It seems like it happens all the more frequently these days. Think about whether the person you are "arguing" with is in fact capable of taking in an argument.
Just throwing this out there. It may or may not have anything to do with the current topic.
October 14 at 10:13pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/SmDp0E904D8...
Dirty Projectors - I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine
Dirty Projectors covering Bob Dylan's 1968 song I...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 10:13pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson Hmm...so murdering others in prison such as guards and other prisoners is...a potential crime? Ordering mob hits is...potential? If they're in prison for life and they murder prisoners or guards...well, the guards are in a dangerous profession?
How do you punish someone who is in prison for life and murders other prisoners? E.g., - http://nypost.com/.../mobster-gets-12-years-for-ordering.../ or http://www.boston.com/.../prosecutor_says_mob_hit.../
Imprison them more?
Mobster gets 12 years for ordering hit during grandma's funeral
A Colombo crime family capo was sentenced to 12...
NYPOST.COM
October 14 at 10:14pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson My point is simply that is not out of bounds to conceive of the death penalty in some circumstances as self-defense. I see major problems with our justice system and our prisons, although I'll admit that comparatively even now it is far better than what one usually finds in various times and places throughout history.
You are right - we are NOT a frontier town. Even so, there are at least plausible self-defense arguments that are pro-death penalty that could be made today, regardless of how far they go.
October 14 at 10:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Kenz, I don't see the authority to take the lives of citizens outside of the sketchy tertiary end.
October 14 at 10:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://youtu.be/fQwn584Q0xY...
Fatal Shore - I dreamed i saw St Augustine
Fourth track from Fatal Shore self tittled 1st album. A song written by Bob Dylan. You can download (legally)...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 14 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Peterson, by the math, our justice system is much worse.
#checkthenumberincarceratedgnosis
October 14 at 10:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Worse than...
October 14 at 10:18pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson Worse than...what?
October 14 at 10:18pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia any other time in history, if you plot the number of prisoners versus the total population. It isn't the nanny-state we're headed toward, it is the prison state
October 14 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "what one usually finds in various times and places throughout history."
October 14 at 10:19pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson Do you suggest that putting more people in prison who commit crimes is linked somehow to less crime on the streets?
October 14 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia certainly doesn't seem to have any correlation
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We are also far less violent than most times and places. Heh.
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson I love listening to the Shawshank Soundtrack discussing this...
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you want to play numbers.
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia shall we?
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It seems absurd to say that incarceration has no impact on crime.
October 14 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia then how is it that more and more people are being incarcerated?
October 14 at 10:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our.../dp/1491518243
The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined
We’ve all asked, “What is the world coming to?” But we...
AMAZON.COM
October 14 at 10:21pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson While violent crime has radically decreased
October 14 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia
Michael Beitia's photo.
October 14 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson In the short term, violent crime in the United States has been in decline since colonial times.
October 14 at 10:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia just lock 'em all up! then we'll have the prison state.
October 14 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Crime in the United States has been present since...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 14 at 10:22pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In America, murder rates are at a 40 year low:
http://www.economist.com/.../2013/07/economist-explains-16
Why is crime falling?
IN SEPTEMBER, Rockstar Games, a British video games developer, is launching Grand Theft Auto 5, a...
ECONOMIST.COM
October 14 at 10:23pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://online.wsj.com/.../SB10001424052702304066504576345...
Hard Times, Fewer Crimes
The economic downturn has not led to more crime—contrary to the experts' predictions. So what explains...
ONLINE.WSJ.COM|BY JAMES Q. WILSON
October 14 at 10:23pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Between 1993 and 2012, the violent crime rate (homicide, robbery, rape and aggravated assault) in the United States dropped by 48 percent. During the same period, the violent crime rate in New York City dropped by 71 percent. In 1993, violent crime in New York accounted for nearly 9 percent of all violent crimes reported in the United States, it's now slightly above 3 percent of all U.S. violent crime, which is roughly the proportion of New York City's population within the country as a whole.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../violent-crime-cities_b...
It's Clear Violent Crime Is Decreasing, But Less Clear Why
Criminologists have been debating the reasons why...
HUFFINGTONPOST.COM
October 14 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/08/us/study-gun-homicide/
Study: Gun homicides, violence down sharply in past 20 years
Gun-related homicides and crime are "strikingly" down...
CNN.COM|BY CNN STAFF
October 14 at 10:24pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh, the linkstorm must prove your point. Incarcerate more people and it's all good. Maybe we could get that rate near to western Europe if we locked up a few more million people
October 14 at 10:24pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson All that said, I do agree our justice system needs a lot of work - disgraceful in many ways. I just reject the simplistic naysaying. I'm mostly against the death penalty in this day and age and think we ought to abandon it - but this would also require overhauling the entire system, which is full of injustice, etc. And I'm also for that. But it's not all easy peasy or simple either way one turns.
October 14 at 10:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia best of all possible worlds, dr. Petersongloss
October 14 at 10:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not the one with easy, utopian critiques. Like I say, I probably agree with you on what needs to be reformed.
October 14 at 10:27pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz I gave the formula for American homicide rates before log(homicide)= c1+ c2*log(economic fatherhood) + c3(incarceration rate among adult males) + c4*log(chance of being executed for murder) + c5*log (abortion rate) From Mueller, Redeeming Economics
Basically for every 1% increase n economic fatherhood, there is a 0.72% drop in murder rates. For every 1% increase in the proportion imprisoned, there is a .25% decrease in murder rates. For every 1% higher chance of being executed for murder, there is ~0.024% drop in murder rates, and for every 1% increase in abortion rates, there is a 0.08% increase in murders rates (not counting abortion as murder)
Basically, incapacitation and deterrence is shown in incarceration. Deterrence by adding the death penalty does exist, but has minimal impact One wonders, though, if it were done both expeditiously and in significantly higher percent, if the rate of change there might change. I don't know. Pro-social indicators, most strong the rate at which men exercise fatherhood (not just in making babies, but upporting children) and anti-social indicators, as abortion rates, indicate a deeper moral connection with crime.
October 14 at 10:28pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia to quote your link from WSJ:
One obvious answer is that many more people are in prison than in the past. Experts differ on the size of the effect, but I think that William Spelman and Steven Levitt have it about right in believing that greater incarceration can explain about one-quarter or more of the crime decline. Yes, many thoughtful observers think that we put too many offenders in prison for too long. For some criminals, such as low-level drug dealers and former inmates returned to prison for parole violations, that may be so. But it's true nevertheless that when prisoners are kept off the street, they can attack only one another, not you or your family.
October 14 at 10:28pm · Like
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Jonathan Watson Right - don't lock up people who commit violent crimes - they need to be rehabilitated...somehow.
I am in favor of reducing or eliminating prison sentences for many non-violent crimes, especially so-called "victimless" offenses. I am also in favor of reforming prisons to cease inmate-to-inmate contact (reducing prison crime - no more exercise rooms, yards play - if one is locked up, it is LOCKED UP), full time video monitoring and review of videos by independent commissions, etc. See, e.g., http://www.economist.com/.../2012/02/prisons-and-crime.
As for imprisonment rates, there are some studies that suggest that crime has been falling because those who commit violent crimes are locked up.
So, let me ask. What would you change as a current and workable solution, Michael, to the violent crime incarceration rate?
What's America's real crime rate?
IF YOU start feeling good about America, run don't walk to Adam Gopnik's damning New Yorker feature on the...
ECONOMIST.COM
October 14 at 10:31pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Locking many up, does drop crime, mostly via incapacitation. But that is not a just measure for justice. That is what gets us absurdities of a man being sentenced 50 to life for shoplifting VHS tapes from K-Mart (that really did happen). It hides the real problem in society, which is the decay of the family and community. Though "economic fatherhood" has improved as well....
October 14 at 10:31pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Basically more adult males 18-45 running around without attachments= more crime
October 14 at 10:31pm · Like · 1
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Jonathan Watson I agree, Joshua - the VHS tapes thing is ridiculous.
October 14 at 10:33pm · Like
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Isak Benedict http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX
1. There exists no Supreme, all-wise, all-provident...
PAPALENCYCLICALS.NET
October 14 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill The system has been flawed from the start, de Tocqueville's assessment of our justice system is still accurate.
October 15 at 12:04am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Explain. How would you improve it?
October 15 at 12:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz.
1. I didn't say that, St. Cyril of Jerusalem said it.
2. I did not apply all necessary distinctions that Cyril mentioned.
3. It was for the sake of jest.
October 15 at 12:59am · Like
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Isak Benedict In the jungle, the mighty jungle, TNET sleeps tonight
October 15 at 1:21am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict You know you're humming that tune now.
October 15 at 1:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Samantha! http://electricliterature.com/what-jane-austen-looked.../
What Jane Austen Looked Like According to Forensic Science
In the nearly 200 years since the beloved author's...
ELECTRICLITERATURE.COM
October 15 at 1:44am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3klNNSrDJw
The Black Keys- Wicked messenger
Great Dylan cover by The Black Keys. Album: I'm Not There OST
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 2:39am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts6gZFEiMkM
Sophie Zelmani - Most of the Time
Most Of The Time, a Bob Dylan cover performed beautifully by Sophie. MOST OF THE TIME Most of...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 2:41am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.irishmegaliths.org.uk/seanchlocha6.htm
PETROGLYPHS: photographs by Anthony Weir...
The photos and text of these pages are anti-copyright...
IRISHMEGALITHS.ORG.UK|BY ANTHONY WEIR
October 15 at 2:50am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.megalithomania.com/show/image/4944
Derrynablaha Rock Art, County Kerry (4944)
megalithomania: Derrynablaha 11 (Kerry), Ireland ::...
MEGALITHOMANIA.COM
October 15 at 2:52am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_Dn1QPIw0
BEN SIDRAN - EVERYTHING IS BROKEN - album Dylan Different
Ben Sidran : recording session in...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 2:52am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jA6shappUw
BEN SIDRAN - DON'T CRY FOR NO HIPSTER
Video the song and new album "Don't Cry For No...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 2:54am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avSGnZlnaY
Sarah Jarosz "Ring Them Bells" : The Americana Sessions
Sarah Jarosz's acoustic performance of "Ring Them...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 2:58am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-rHaTAsSTs
Simple Twist of Fate Sarah Jarosz
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:05am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Hah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDQIGraR3aI
Joanna Newsom the Book of Right-ON
the Book of Right-ON
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:12am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3Z_hU4GL4
Joanna Newsom - Sawdust And Diamonds - End Of The Road Festival 2011
Live at The Woods Stage, End Of The Road...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:16am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpD5_c2j1OM
Joan Baez - Diamonds and Rust
Joan about Bob and with new photos.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:17am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsOhTmCiwBs
JOAN BAEZ ~ No Woman No Cry ~
Joan Baez ~ NO WOMAN NO CRY ~ from "Diamonds And Rust In The Bullring"
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:17am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Joking aside, this is really the only decent original song of Joan's I know of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5guDlELHck
October 15 at 3:22am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson so good, Not even trolling eclectic with this. One of the saddest songs of the last decade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoG18Z0AKqE
I Drink
From Mary Gauthier's album "Mercy Now" www.marygauthier.com www.facebook.com/marygauth...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:35am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And this is probably one of the best singer song writer guitar songs of the last decade period:
http://youtu.be/vL6JoP0KCoo...
Mercy Now
From Mary Gauthier's album "Mercy Now" www.marygauthier.com www.facebook.com/marygauth...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:35am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson another fav:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HC7KABegj0
Patty Griffin Making Pies
I think this is a great song with a haunting vocal. Enjoy the music and lyrics.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:57am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
October 15 at 5:38am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Great way to end my musical trollery.
October 15 at 7:36am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson T.S Eliot took the cultural critiquing place of modern rawk music for me in high school.
October 15 at 7:57am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia can you troll your own thread?
New thesis: "Trolling and tNET: toward a possibility of cave-dwelling hermaneutic."
October 15 at 7:58am · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I troll others trolling myself trolling myself on my own thread. tNET is a hall of mirrors. Master slave dialectic spun out of control.
October 15 at 8:01am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia it is clearly not Aristhomistical, definitely Hegelian
October 15 at 8:10am · Like · 2
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John Ashman RE: crime, a few things come into play.
In California, recivitism is so bad, that 50% of criminals return to jail within 1 year and 60% within 2 years. So imagine the number of crimes that would not have occurred if they had stayed even one year longer in jail. And this is ONLY those that were caught.
Abortion, birth control and incarcerated men have been fingered by some as lowering the birthrate among the poor and likely to resort to crime. Fewer teenagers always equals less crime.
There is a serious racial element in that black kids are 20x as likely to be in a gang as white kids and hispanic kids are something like 12-15x, I forget. You also have the very high intraracial murder rate with criminals killing criminals and taking each other out of the gene pool.
October 15 at 8:28am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm going to (tentatively) agree with you here John.
Caveat: correlation is not causality. that having been said, there is a strong correlation between poverty, race, single parent.... etc etc etc and crime rate. Someone asked earlier what I would do about crime? Attack the sources of crime, not hit it after the fact. Put programs in place to lessen poverty and the spiral that is the American ghetto.
October 15 at 8:49am · Like · 2
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Jonathan Watson Such programs are in place, working, and expanding. See, e.g., http://www.ahaprocess.com/solutions/community/, put on by various agencies around the country. See, e.g., http://www.sjcbridges.org/, itself partnered with agencies like Anne's (my wife) - http://www.svdpsb.org/gettingahead.htm.
Community Support Program | Bridges Out of Poverty
Bridges Out of Poverty provides a community support...
AHAPROCESS.COM
October 15 at 8:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's a start, but there are various economic factors that are systemic that tend to suppress real progress.
October 15 at 9:00am · Like
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John Ashman I think the problem IS the programs. We keep making programs and keep failing. The best thing we can do is stop making life miserable for the poor. Get rid of most zoning laws, licensing laws, stop subsidizing education and let the market force it down in price where it is ACTUALLY affordable, have private education engage private companies with education targeted towards their employees to help increase their performance and value, stop with the nuisance laws that disproportionately affect the poor, like car inspection laws that can force people to spend $thousands extra to keep their car on the road, get rid of victimless crimes that always harm the poor, etc, etc, etc.
The problem with programs is that we are not addressing the root problems, but spending money to try to fix what we broke with laws, programs and other interventions. The black community had family, valued education, religion, jobs, etc, right up until government decided to save them. What we've done is made life better for a few but worse for all others.
October 15 at 9:02am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Also, let the tNET record show that Beitia agreed with me on something
October 15 at 9:03am · Like · 3
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Jonathan Watson Michael - might I suggest that you look into the Bridges program and others like it to deal with the economic factors?
As with many things, the factors are not purely "economic", but "socio-" as well - I think Megan McArdle explains some of them well here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AchISJUKfH4
October 15 at 9:03am · Like
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Michael Beitia an economic system that incentivizes shipping labor overseas has a direct effect on poverty, to name one factor that is beyond the control of an organization like the Bridges program
October 15 at 9:06am · Like
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Michael Beitia and John, although I don't agree with your politics, time has shown that most federal "war on poverty" programs are abject failures.
October 15 at 9:08am · Like
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John Ashman In Mexico, it is VERY easy to start a service related business. There are almost no rules. People start a busines in their home, it could be a mini market, it could be a tire shop, a repair shop, a flower shop, barber shop, whatever, and no one says a word. Yes, you're supposed to have a federal tax ID and that's about it. They are not forced to pay annual fees or take expensive classes or to rent from a rich landlord in a "properly zoned" district. Also, you can walk to get the services you need in many cases, not have to drive to a special area, which saves the locals money.
October 15 at 9:08am · Like
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Michael Beitia In Mexico, it is also very easy to be killed by a drug cartel. No system is perfect
October 15 at 9:09am · Like
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John Ashman Speaking of incentivizing job shipping, our employment laws are awful. You REALLY need to NEED to hire someone before doing so. And many small businesses that could grow simply choose not to do so because it increases the hassle factor.
October 15 at 9:10am · Like
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John Ashman It is easy to get killed by a drug cartel if you screw with drug cartels. If you don't, it's very unlikely. It is the same as if you go to a bad neighborhood in the US and start making problems. Or if you drive around in a fancy car at night in a bad neighborhood. Crime tends to look for assholes and the rich.
But this is another example of how stupid victimless laws take a drug like marijuana that makes people want to chill out and eat potato chips and listen to Pink Floyd and makes other people want to kill each other to provide it.
October 15 at 9:12am · Like
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John Ashman I wonder what the Church's current position is on the FREEDOM to sin. As in, people should be free to do it and deal with God later, or whether they should be legally punished for sinning. I've just never heard a Church leader say that people should be free to make mistakes, only that they DO make mistakes and should atone.
October 15 at 9:15am · Like
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Michael Beitia well, someone mentioned last night that the criminalization of non-violent crime is a problem in this country. But just as we've shipped unskilled jobs south, we can ship violent crime south, no?
October 15 at 9:16am · Like
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John Ashman Sure,though it's not terribly fair to the dozens of students that were just killed and/or kidnapped by drug cartels..
October 15 at 9:18am · Like
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John Ashman The other issue comes when the government is allowed to be a plaintiff and "victim". That means they can make a law and then prosecute you with it anytime they want virtually without recourse and can do so without proving any harm whatsoever.
October 15 at 9:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia sure beats providing unskilled labor to American, amIrite?
October 15 at 9:20am · Like
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John Ashman We don't like the idea of people actually working for a living. It bothers us. Better to send it to China and forget about it.
October 15 at 9:23am · Like
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John Ashman The only job in the US should be being popular and glamorous.
October 15 at 9:23am · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, thanks for the link to "I Drink", never heard that song before. It's great!
October 15 at 9:33am · Like · 2
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Matt Badley This thread looked like it was petering out, so in an attempt to avoid having it be renamed, thought I would inject a post I saw by Mark Brumley, but I couldn't figure out how. Basically, he says he has a friend who wants to be loyal to Pope Francis, but feels he is making mistakes that will lead/are leading to confusion due to a lack of clarity. Dunno if anyone here has an opinion on this.
October 15 at 10:38am · Like
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Jeff Neill Is it Francis lacking clarity or others taking advantage of his disposition towards charity?
October 15 at 10:40am · Like
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John Ashman I inject one of the greatest songs of the 2000s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaP46asbIS4
Porcupine Tree - Trains (live)
Porcupine Tree - Trains from DVD "Arriving somewhere"
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 10:40am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Matt speaks of this:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php...
Mark Brumley
A friend tells me he is very conflicted. He wants to be loyal to Pope Francis but my friend thinks the Holy Father is making big mistakes. What many praise as his style, others criticize as being "erratic", to use my friend's word. The basis for my friend's concern? Here is what he says (given here with his permission):
"Every Catholic I talk to (except you) thinks the Church either has changed, will certainly change, or will probably change her teaching on divorce and remarriage, gay marriage, and sex outside of marriage. I know, I know. You say that Pope Francis hasn't signed off on such things and that he can't. Well, every Catholic I talk to except you, including my pastor, says these things are open for reconsideration. He doesn't necessarily favor changing things but he thinks they're up for that possibility. Where does that come from? I say: the Pope hasn't been clear enough. I think he needs to step up and take responsibility for the mass media confusion. Up to a point, I get what he is trying too do but he is way beyond reasonable. It's like he thinks he can do whatever he wants. His style is erratic. He seems to be out of touch with the real world, despite his driving around in little cars and staying at the Vatican hotel. Can't we say we love everybody without generating headlines about changes in Church teaching? How much work will have to be done to clarify? If I hear one more sermon on legalism and rigidity, I'm going to vomit. Maybe Pope Francis should be pope of the internet, where there are lots of extreme right-wing Catholics to rebuke. Most of the Catholics in my parish are anything but legalists and rigid. Those I have tried to encourage to be faithful now throw Pope Francis in my face. I'm the one who isn't faithful to "church teaching" now. Why? Because Pope Francis said, "Who am I to judge?" and so many other things. You see how hard it is for me. I want to support Pope Francis. I think he really does mean well. Meaning well, though, doesn't cut it. Popes can do a lot of damage to the cause of Christ. Look at history. They need to be prudent and wise, as well as meaning well. Yes, Jesus was controversial but Jesus was divine. The Pope isn't divine. Just because he gets controversial doesn't mean he is being like Jesus. Anyhow, thanks for listening to my rant."
I wish I has time to reply in detail. I know many people here are upset with Francis for this or that. How would others reply?
October 15 at 10:41am · Like · 3
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John Ashman Pope Francis = not infallible w/respect to macroeconomics.
It seems to me he wants to continue the evolution of the Church which requires a certain fuzzying up of the parameters first. But he risks taking a SJW approach of blame, and people "owing each other" instead of charitible work and positive behavior towards others.
October 15 at 10:45am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's a great question re: Francis Matt Badley. I think the mental gymnastics I use can be helpful:
To teach, one must be clear
The current pontiff is not clear
therefore, he isn't teaching.
I am required to be faithful to the teaching, not the man.
I am not required to be "faithful" to the pope.
October 15 at 10:55am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland You can show allegiance to Christ and his vicar without condoning anything a particular vicar does or says.
October 15 at 11:00am · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland That's true of any of them, not just Francis, though I know of at least a few people who have come back to the church because of pope Francis, including my aunt. He may not be clear, but he somehow is conveying the message of Christ's love.
October 15 at 11:04am · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland On the other hand, there have been plenty of popes who have acted worse than criminally, and the church labors on in spite of it all.
October 15 at 11:05am · Like
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Catherine Ryland TNET: aristhomistegelianism
October 15 at 11:11am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia in all fairness, though, regarding Francis, bringing people back into the Church means that people have to *actually* follow the teachings of the Church.
October 15 at 11:14am · Edited · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill That people around him manipulate his words to the extremes has been very helpful in increasing the "the POPE SAID WHAT?!?!" Factor. Causing more people to read what anecdotes the he actually said.
He acknowledged the lobby within the Vatican. Do you think he is unaware of the efforts of the lobby?
October 15 at 11:12am · Like
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Isak Benedict Pope Francis is a modernist.
October 15 at 11:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia a clear teacher would correct the misinformation, Jeff
October 15 at 11:13am · Like
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Michael Beitia Isak, who are you to judge?
October 15 at 11:13am · Like · 1
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Joel HF http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/.../that-synod-light...
Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: That Synod: light from the Ordinariate
LITURGICALNOTES.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY FR JOHN HUNWICKE
October 15 at 11:14am · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Useful w/r/t our allegiance to the Pope, and what it means.
October 15 at 11:15am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia if you bring people to the Church and they receive sacraments unworthily, then they are (let's get Augustinian) "heap coals on their own heads". Being responsible for that would make me have a nervous breakdown.
October 15 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here's the meat of what he says for those to lazy to click through (though I'm omitting some really good stuff):
"I would add a word of my own, to another anxious correspondent: A Catholic is obliged to be in communion with the See of S Peter (both when, as now, it is occupied, and also when, as during interregna, it is unoccupied). One is under no strict obligation to like the currently reigning Pontiff, nor to agree with him, nor to think that he is a man of prudence (although I think it is a mark of the mens Catholica to give him the benefit of any doubt). Many bishops, and even cardinals, did not like Benedict XVI, did not agree with him, did not admire his prudence. Indeed, not a few of those hierarchs, as soon as Benedict abdicated, came crawling out of their corners and said so. Presumably, as soon as Francis is either buried or abdicated, the same thing will happen.
You have to be in communion with him and to accept anything he defines ex cathedra to be the teaching of Christ. When, in his Ordinary Magisterium, he affirms the Church's teaching (and Francis has done a lot of that) you are thankful for it. When you have a problem with some word or action, you lean over backwards to see it in the best possible light. But your duties of faithfulness to Christ do not mean that you have to be pathologically sycophantic towards whoever happens to be the current bishop of Rome."
October 15 at 11:18am · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Beitia, he hasn't finished teaching yet. Responding instantly to misinterpretations will not slow down the intentional skewing of the teaching.
October 15 at 11:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia has he started teaching yet?
October 15 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill He has acted, and demonstration is teaching.
October 15 at 11:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia I scroll back up to what I typed earlier: teaching presupposes clarity
October 15 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Jeff, I read his own words too and what he does not say. The media is not the cause of all confusion.
October 15 at 11:21am · Like
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Michael Beitia #teachinggnosis
October 15 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Oddly, I like Pope Francis most on economic/social justice type stuff. He seems pretty orthodox there, though I haven't made an exhaustive study on his teaching on the subject, by any means.
October 15 at 11:23am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia that's the closest thing I've seen to a teaching.
October 15 at 11:25am · Like
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Jeff Neill Was Plato clear?
October 15 at 11:26am · Like
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Jeff Neill I think teaching does not presuppose clarity.
October 15 at 11:29am · Like
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Isak Benedict But good rhetoric presupposes clarity. By good I do not mean persuasive, I mean truthful.
October 15 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Was anything said false?
October 15 at 11:31am · Like
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Isak Benedict With some things, ambiguity is worse than falsehood.
October 15 at 11:32am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger As to the crisis others feel, I haven't had it. I see another Western schism. While never suspecting anything before, three months ago I was convinced that Benedict's resignation was invalid (for three to six reasons depending how you count them). Of course the strongest reason against this view is that Benedict regards it as valid. I see schism brewing but the Church will remain. [I was not a fan of Benedict. However this conviction has given me considerable peace. Socci has a book coming out on this in a few weeks.]
October 15 at 11:32am · Like
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Isak Benedict The master rhetor knows how to ensure that his audience leaves with a clear understanding of his explicit point.
October 15 at 11:33am · Like
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Isak Benedict THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING Y'ALL
October 15 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the Russian Islamic Ebola-infected Communist Modernists are coming
October 15 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill What was said and how was it not explicit and clear? (While it may not be what you wanted to hear)
October 15 at 11:34am · Like
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John Ashman Oddly, Joel HF, not terribly Catholic.
October 15 at 11:35am · Like
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Isak Benedict Well Jeff, where do you want to start? How about "Who am I to judge?"
October 15 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Ok.
October 15 at 11:36am · Like
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Isak Benedict A good rhetor also knows his audience better than they know themselves, and thus knows exactly how they will take the words he says.
October 15 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill Is holding the keys judgement?
October 15 at 11:37am · Like
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John Ashman One of the issues with the Church is the inability to confine jugment to those who profess to be Catholic. Essentially judging people who haven't even agreed to the standards.
October 15 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia How about:
"A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: 'Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?' We must always consider the person."
October 15 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^unclear^
October 15 at 11:38am · Like
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John Ashman Transmogrification.
October 15 at 11:39am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ok. (Editing due to post timing)
What is unclear? That a gay person is to be loved? Of course they are.
October 15 at 11:40am · Edited · Like
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John Ashman To shift one's form, one must first become without form.
October 15 at 11:39am · Like
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Isak Benedict "Who am I to judge?" on the one hand expresses a deep truth. No man may judge another. Only God may judge. But on the other hand, (and a good rhetor would know this is how a modern audience will take such a statement) it expresses a hands-off, anything goes mentality.
In short, Francis failed to distinguish between dogmatic and practical tolerance.
If he's a good rhetor, then this is malicious. I think, for now, that it just means he is not a good rhetor.
October 15 at 11:39am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Jeff, holding the keys means the Pope has the power to open AND close the gates of heaven. Yes, he can pronounce judgement. And should.
October 15 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I think he is a master at rhetoric.
October 15 at 11:41am · Like
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Isak Benedict Do say more.
October 15 at 11:41am · Like
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Jeff Neill Is that judgement or forgiveness? Are they the same?
October 15 at 11:41am · Like
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Isak Benedict Pardon?
October 15 at 11:41am · Like
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Jeff Neill Is forgiving sins the same as judgement?
October 15 at 11:42am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not following either Jeffie.
October 15 at 11:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict Do you mean to say they are two sides of the same coin? They stem from the same power granted by God?
October 15 at 11:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill It seems judgement and forgiveness are separate
October 15 at 11:47am · Like
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Michael Beitia isn't forgiving a particular act of judgement?
October 15 at 11:49am · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill An officer of the law can "forgive" through giving a "warning" instead if justly deserved arrest (ticket).
However, giving the ticket is not the judgement.
October 15 at 11:49am · Like
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Isak Benedict Toleration is only a virtue if it is exercised only practically. Yes, we should tolerate the sins of our brethren, to the extent we can, as we hope they will tolerate ours. In other words, we don't stone adulterers. We put up with fallen humans, with kindness and charity.
Dogmatic toleration, however, is tantamount to relativism. Treating all beliefs as dogmatically equal is self-contradictory. That is not loving at all - it is hateful.
October 15 at 11:49am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia you're too dogmatic and intolerant....
October 15 at 11:50am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill If the vicar of Christ can forgive, is that the judgement of God regarding the sinfulness?
October 15 at 11:51am · Like
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Isak Benedict Jeff, do you see how Francis' statement is easily understood by a modern liberal audience as an endorsement of dogmatic toleration, whether or not he meant it that way?
That might be what is called good rhetoric today - but it is not good rhetoric according to classical standards.
October 15 at 11:51am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "rhetoric" of today is mere pandering. Francis is great at this
October 15 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict On the contrary Michael - I need to be extremely practically tolerant, because I need a lot of the same treatment back
October 15 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I see a very clear statement of love for people who get shunned by the intolerant.
October 15 at 11:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia your understanding is different from everyone else who isn't trying to make excuses for bad rhetoric
October 15 at 11:54am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia WTH? who is "getting shunned"? Orthodox Catholic positions are
October 15 at 11:55am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Exactly^
October 15 at 11:55am · Like
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Michael Beitia here in the Archdiocese of Chicago, we have "Gay Masses"
Who is getting shunned?
October 15 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict All must be tolerated except truth, because truth is intolerant by nature of falsehood.
October 15 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Francis has also repeatedly denigrated Traditional, or Orthodox Catholics.
October 15 at 11:56am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it's pretty sad that Slavoj Zizek became the prophet for the West
October 15 at 11:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill You look victimized, but I'm here for virtual hugs for you Beitia.
October 15 at 11:57am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Sometimes Charity dictates that we speak the truth to lead people away from sin.
October 15 at 11:57am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict #warmfuzziesgnosis
October 15 at 11:57am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I am unaware of the masses in Chicago.
October 15 at 11:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia the previous Cardinal, well, let's not spread scandal
October 15 at 11:57am · Like
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Joel HF In America, and I suspect in Germany as well, it is hardly the case that the divorced and remarried are being denied communion. When people bother to show up to the NO, they all trip right up. Even in the rare instance that a statement is made by the Priest (as for example at a family funeral) as to who may receive, everyone still comes up anyway.
October 15 at 11:58am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia #tolerationgnosis
October 15 at 11:58am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I am always amazed to see how long the Communion lines are, and how short the Confession lines are...
October 15 at 11:59am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill I was in SoCal.... I know what former bishops have done to the church.
October 15 at 11:59am · Like
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Joel HF Isak Benedict, what's a "confession line"? (I keed, I keed.)
October 15 at 12:00pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict It's a non-specific unit of measurement a few more than a few and a few less than several.
October 15 at 12:01pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill I still see nothing false in what Francis has stated, but I have seen people manipulate his statements to their own objective.
October 15 at 12:02pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You see nothing false because there is nothing false there to see. But like I said, a good rhetor knows exactly how his statements will be understood, and allows for those understandings purposefully. If Francis is a good rhetor, then he knew his statement would be understood to mean endorsing dogmatic toleration. It really doesn't require any manipulation. The statement works either way.
October 15 at 12:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I humbly suggest that the Holy Father re-read his Aesop's Fables and remember that the Satyr drove the Traveler out of his cave for blowing on his fingers to warm them and blowing on his porridge to cool it...
October 15 at 12:10pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict But once again, I do not think Francis is a good rhetor.
October 15 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I have the feeling any second now someone is going to pop in and accuse me of "Pope-bashing..."
October 15 at 12:08pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I stand guilty of "Bad-rhetor-bashing," for sure...
October 15 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Yeah, orthodox haters are gonna hate.
October 15 at 12:10pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict That's funnier if you picture "orthodox haters" as "orthodox believers who are haters" rather than "those who hate the orthodox" hahaha
October 15 at 12:11pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Isak Benedict - why are you Pope-bashing....?
October 15 at 12:13pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict DING-DING-DING congratulations young man, you've won this giant stuffed Albigensian
October 15 at 12:14pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict It's hard for me to talk about things like this, because I prefer to praise things than condemn them, in general. I think the world has alchemically transformed my childlike poet-wonder into misanthropic grumpiness.
October 15 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #grumpygnosis
October 15 at 12:23pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Gay masses is a bit....weird, given that it doesn't quite follow logically. Since the Catholic Church hasn't accepted that people don't choose to be gay, last I checked. So it would be just a regular sinner's mass, like all other masses. I mean, a choice implies that you could go either way. Like, you know, I got up this morning and decided that ONCE AGAIN, I am going to be straight today. But tomorrow, I'll have to decide again. Or something.....
October 15 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe I don't know that there's an official Catholic Church position on why people have gay inclinations. There is a position on why they act on their inclinations - choice + original sin.
October 15 at 12:31pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman I mean...I'm pretty sure that the reaosn I don't have sex with men isn't because the Old Testament said it was bad or because someone threatened to stone me. It's the same reason I don't eat beets. I didn't choose to not eat beets, it's just, ewww.
October 15 at 12:32pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman The inherent difference I've seen is that the Pope seems to be pushing a socialist agenda to global government, that the government must do certain things. The problem is, I don't see government in mass or in confession. In some ways, it is a dangerous regression, even while promoting progress in certain areas. Catholicism, to me, is about individual action, individual responsibility, and poverty as positive choice. Now he's saying that we must eliminate poverty, so, there shall be no meek to inherit the Earth. The message gets.....pretty anti-Catholic at times.
October 15 at 12:41pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Isak Benedict--whether he is a good rhetorician or not depends entirely on the effect he is trying to produce. Good, at least, in the Machiavellian sense of "effective."
October 15 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Some of the things you've said remind me of why it can be very hard to discuss Church teaching on certain highly-charged subjects, especially face to face. What I mean is, I find it easy to discuss and defend the Church's teaching on abortion, even with people who themselves have had one. But it is much harder, for some reason, for me to discuss homosexuality, because I understand very well that Eros is not something we choose. Our attractions choose us. I didn't choose to be straight any more than someone else chose to be gay.
And while I know very well that we are called to be chaste no matter what attracts us, it's also true that the heterosexual has the sexual "outlet" and joy of marriage, while the homosexual does not. This indicates to me that it is a much heavier cross to bear.
Anyway this is all just to say that it's a difficult topic to handle among certain friends and acquaintances.
I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I'd be happy to clarify.
October 15 at 12:45pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Joel HF - I was thinking of the Roman sense Quintilian meant when he defined rhetoric as "the good man speaking well."
October 15 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Which is different than merely "effective," I think.
October 15 at 12:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia IDK about the difficulties in discussing sexuality. There are a myriad of disordered heterosexual inclinations, and I'm not sure that anyone "chooses" them. However, it isn't clear that people are born gay any more than some people are "born porn-addicts".
I have some experience with children and they seem to be asexual up to a certain point. The choices that other make for them, and what they are exposed to changes the outlook and proclivities - for everyone.
But as far as this goes, I'd rather point the finger at heterosexual people "doing it wrong" because that is a much greater problem in (and outside of) the Church now.
October 15 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #streamofconsciousnessgnosis
October 15 at 12:56pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Seriously though, how do you talk about Church teaching with a homosexual friend? And maybe more to the point, keep him as a friend and get him to see that your fidelity to church teaching on the subject doesn't mean you hate him?
October 15 at 12:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Same way you deal with co-habitating couples
October 15 at 12:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Which is how?
October 15 at 12:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't think the "born this way or that" is quuiiite the same as saying one doesn't choose Eros. But I need to think about that.
October 15 at 12:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict It's standardized testing day at work, and I'm a backup/relief monitor. Bored out of my mind. HELP ME TNET
October 15 at 1:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia learn to play the Bagermin
October 15 at 1:10pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh yeah they've got those growing on trees around here!
October 15 at 1:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as far as I know there is only one in existence. I would like to have one, however.
October 15 at 1:21pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF There are many theremin kits for sale. I assume one can buy a Badger skin somewhere as well. Put 'em together, et voila!
October 15 at 1:22pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley "One doesn't choose Eros." But one does develop the erotic capacity, which results in immortality only "if love leads aright". Love doesn't lead aright unless by Divine illumination. By our natural lights we missapprehend the object of our desire. So the result of erotic development tends to be a diseased passionate state wherein we think that our fulfillment or even our human dignity, is contingent on indulging an irrational drive to consume flamin' cheetos.
October 15 at 1:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia did you see the bagermin? It is more than a skin
October 15 at 1:23pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Surely Chicago has taxidermists?
October 15 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia probably? never had much inclination to look
October 15 at 1:25pm · Like
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Richard Nutley Food was made for the body and the body for food, but the body was not made for sexual immorality.
October 15 at 1:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia this one's pretty close to my house:
http://allgamesoutherlandtaxidermy.com/
ALL GAME SOUTHERLAND'S TAXIDERMY
All Game Southerland's Taxidermy supplies the...
ALLGAMESOUTHERLANDTAXIDERMY.COM
October 15 at 1:26pm · Like
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Joel HF Think of the endless possibilities! Racoonmin, foxemin, owlemin, the list goes on!
October 15 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia click on the site: they have a taxidermied parrot. And my youngest son would kill me in my sleep if I had a stuffed owl.
October 15 at 1:27pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Bassemin! Troutemin!
October 15 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia #Greatnorthernpikemingnosis
October 15 at 1:30pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF http://www.ted.com/.../pamelia_kurstin_plays_the_theremin...
The untouchable music of the theremin
Virtuoso Pamelia Kurstin performs and discusses her theremin, the not-just-for-sci-fi electronic instrument...
TED.COM|BY PAMELIA KURSTIN
October 15 at 1:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I wonder, on a more serious note, if there is some sort of connection between imagination and eros. Nascent thought, but the forming of imagination seems to me to parallel the forming of one's erotic inclination.
October 15 at 1:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Eros is a dark, dangerous, deadly force Richard much like Duende. I don't know if I agree with your last sentence - the action of Eros on our hearts doesn't necessarily result in our thinking that our very fulfillment is contingent on indulging a drive. Consider Orsino!
The modern world has forgotten that Cupid shoots you in the chest with an arrow. It's not cute at all.
October 15 at 1:37pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley There is a difference in kind between gluttony for food and "gluttony" for putting sand in your mouth and swallowing it, and the penitential struggle looks quite different in each case.
One would think that in the second case, a substitution of the erotic object is required. Hungry for sand? Eat this dry bread instead.
October 15 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Modern Catholic advice is: hang out with other sandeaters, bear your cross of "being a sandeater", bring your unique sandeater-gifts to the Church, help people understand that there's nothing special about the sin of sandeating and that one does not choose to be a sandeater. Put the sand in your mouth, swirl it around, just DON'T SWALLOW. But mistakes are bound to happen: that's why there's Confession.
This advice perpetuates the vicious cycle of starvation and sandeating.
October 15 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm not actually interested in eating sand, I was speaking more toward Eros considered generically.
October 15 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Eros can actually be a great remedy for run of the mill lust.
October 15 at 1:41pm · Like
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Michael Beitia explain?
October 15 at 1:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I am not entirely sure I follow, Richard
October 15 at 1:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Talking to me or Richard?
October 15 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Interesting Samantha. I have thought before that lust was a mere shadow of Eros.
October 15 at 1:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you
October 15 at 1:42pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #sweetsoundsoftaxidermygnosis
October 15 at 1:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #andtheremingnosis
October 15 at 1:44pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I love the #gnosis trend so much and I don't know why.
October 15 at 1:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I love it because I originally used it to harass Perescott
October 15 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia he lacked #mathgnosis
October 15 at 1:45pm · Like · 3
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John Ashman #eboladiagnosis
October 15 at 1:46pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wow what happened to him anyway? I think he blocked me again. Dammit Michael why did you have to bring that up, I was having such a good time.
October 15 at 1:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm not blocked. Maybe he went to learn #gnosis
October 15 at 1:47pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman The fake Perescott blocked me.
October 15 at 1:48pm · Like
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John Ashman Which is why I suspect Joshua or John.
October 15 at 1:48pm · Like
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John Ashman I think the problem with the Church teaching up til now has been that it implies that gay people can just be straight if they choose and so they're choosing wrong. As opposed to say, a Jew who is allergic to everything but pork.
October 15 at 1:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, that isn't Church teaching. Everyone can choose what they want to do, but some choices are right and some are wrong. Everyone is called to be chaste for their state in life.
October 15 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman Well, maybe it's the protestants then. I know I get hit by those people with "IT'S A CHOICE!!!" A lot.
October 15 at 1:52pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman None can answer when and how they came to choose being straight.
October 15 at 1:52pm · Like
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Richard Nutley I think you're right, Isak, that we may not come to think it necessary to indulge whatever desires our erotic object inspires. There is some connection between fulfillment/identity, and the erotic object though.
Like: I am who I am, I EXIST because I love Viola.
I don't think we're entirely wrong about this but I don't know how to understand it.
October 15 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Isak, what if I am erotically attracted to sheep?
October 15 at 1:53pm · Like
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Richard Nutley Courtly love also favors you.
October 15 at 1:54pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94lP-fZyLk
The Sheep Scene-Everything you've always wanted to know abou
The sheep scene Everything you've always wanted to...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 1:53pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Courtney Love!?
October 15 at 1:54pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Isak, my point with the sand eating is that the "gay chastity" approach is unfit to human nature and so unrealistic.
October 15 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I don't think that's comparable John. The sheep is not as beautiful as the human form, male or female.
October 15 at 2:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict What do you mean by the "gay chastity" approach?
October 15 at 2:06pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Right and homoeroticism is unnatural. Chrysostum in his commentary on Romans distinguishes natural lust from the burning desires of homoeroticism. The behavior bears this out too.
October 15 at 2:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I don't have a great worked out theory behind my Eros can remedy lust point. I just think experience bears it out. A specific, arrow to chest kind of Eros tends to dispel any lesser, undirected sexual desire and focus it on one object, in a way that is bound up with a lot of higher desires as well. I think C.S. Lewis said something like this in the Four Loves, but I wouldn't swear to that since I haven't read it since my youth.
October 15 at 2:26pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia not reading C.S. Lewis may be the best advice you have given yet....
October 15 at 2:27pm · Like
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Isak Benedict A haiku in the modem American style, or a "pop" as Ginsberg used to call them:
boredom
makes lust
makes boredom
October 15 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia ^see also: reading the "begats"
begat....begat............begetting....
October 15 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict TNET inspires a lot of haiku, by the way. Thanks for that.
October 15 at 2:31pm · Like
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Michael Beitia mystery of sin?
catapulting ripened pears
Autumnal jollies
October 15 at 2:38pm · Like · 4
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Richard Nutley My male friends who are Christians with these inclinations fall into two camps. One camp says something like:
"The concept of sexual orientation is dubious. I experience same-sex-attraction. I have a spousal vocation as we all do: either to Christ in the monastery, or if remaining in the world, to a wife. For now I find myself single living in the world. I have a tendency to confuse the friendship and spousal relation, and it doesn't help that they have much in common."
The other camp says something like:
"I am a gay Christian. Just as a clergyman is forbidden to take a spouse, even though he has the natural inclination to do so, I am forbidden to take a spouse, despite my inclinations. Thus I find myself in a state of less-than-entirely-voluntary celibacy, which I will try to accept, in part by cultivating deep relationships with other gay men, but denying myself genital activity."
I know I'm not doing justice to either camp, but there they are. By the "gay chastity" approach, I mean the approach of the 2nd camp.
October 15 at 2:40pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman I had a horrible moment today when I thought I disagreed with Aquinas. I was very scared.
October 15 at 2:40pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman #noattentiontocurrentconversationgnosis
October 15 at 2:40pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Three modern haiku on the common subject of teaching:
check your
ego
at the door
grading
laugh-crying
grading
tired
all the time
now
October 15 at 2:42pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I like the middle one
October 15 at 2:43pm · Like · 4
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Max Summe Basketball philosophy book title: "Swish: Nothing but #gnosis"
October 15 at 2:45pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe I'm very tired
October 15 at 2:45pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley the only promising result of searching for #gnosis:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10102645056492434&set=a.795363812434.2399922.5318368
Gnosis : strong and malty, our tripel is a tribute to the monastic brewing tradition. It was in the monasteries of Europe that the secret knowledge of brewing was perfected, and alchemy wed divinity. #tripel #ale #gnosis #alchemy
James Estes at Right Proper Brewing Company
Gnosis : strong and malty, our tripel is a tribute to the monastic brewing tradition. It was in the monasteries of Europe that the secret knowledge of brewing was perfected, and alchemy wed divinity. #tripel #ale #gnosis #alchemy
October 15 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict There are also a bunch of interesting gnosis dances on YouTube.
October 15 at 2:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, it speaks to the special secret knowledge that every graduate from TAC has. we are so well equipped to speak on any subject, since our philosophy is clearly architectonic, eloquently and cutting straight to the truth of the matter. #selfparodygnosis
October 15 at 2:51pm · Like · 3
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Max Summe ^^ #extrasecretgnosisgnosis
October 15 at 2:53pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe A play about TAC education: Much ado about #gnosis
October 15 at 2:57pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia written by Ionesco
October 15 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe who?
October 15 at 3:02pm · Like
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Michael Beitia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ionesco
Eugène Ionesco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eugène Ionesco (born Eugen Ionescu,...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 15 at 3:03pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe oh I not L I looked up LONESCO - and go tsome weird consulting company...
October 15 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.drama21c.kr/writers/ionesco/lessontxt-e.htm
Ionesco [The Lesson] 뺻
avant-gardeThe Bald Prima-Donna Amédéé or How to Get Rid of It ictims of Duty Jacques or Obedience Notes et contre-notesJournal en miettes
DRAMA21C.KR
October 15 at 3:04pm · Like
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Max Summe Yes that makes much more sense now.
October 15 at 3:04pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I like Ionesco. I like TAC
therefore, etc. QED
#coupletgnosis
October 15 at 3:11pm · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson This guy just keeps getting crazier and crazier:
://://www.firstthings.com/.../dont-listen-to-the-africans...
Don’t Listen to the Africans, Says Catholic Cardinal
Or the Mideast Christians
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
October 15 at 3:12pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia censure? prolly not
October 15 at 3:12pm · Like
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Joel HF We're all pulling for KC right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQiGv3G6wow
The Beatles - "Kansas City Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey"
Song: Kansas City Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey Artist: The...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 3:37pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig My... does sound a tad bit racist of the Cardinal.
October 15 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Truth isn't cultural
October 15 at 3:49pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF ^When will you learn, Beitia, Kasper is just talking about *pastoral* solutions.
October 15 at 3:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia NEVER! I will never learn
#ignoranceisblissgnosis
October 15 at 3:51pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Kasper, of the "Oneish, Slightly less bad, Apostolic(?), Pastoral Church"
October 15 at 3:52pm · Like
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Sean Robertson In happier news, the Class of 2014 (my class) just produced its first religious vocation:
http://thomasaquinas.edu/.../surprise-dominican-maria...
A Surprise Dominican: Maria Barrett (’14) | Thomas Aquinas College
The College has received word that on the Feast of All...
THOMASAQUINAS.EDU
October 15 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson That is, of those who graduated. We had some leave before graduating who joined orders too.
October 15 at 3:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia 2014? kids these days....
October 15 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Michael, stop making reminding me.
October 15 at 4:01pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig I got to visit TAC for the first time in 4 years during a running semester, few weeks back---what a weird feeling. Pretty much like a ghost, except still familiar with people in a weird'ish way.
October 15 at 4:01pm · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng
Adrw Lng's photo.
October 15 at 4:18pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict That is an unfair level of cute.
October 15 at 4:22pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #furballgnosis
October 15 at 4:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Jon Andrew Greig, last time I was at TAC was . . . after I graduated, I've never been back. I doubt I'd recognize large swaths of the campus
October 15 at 5:02pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Isak Benedict, just as, in old English times, parliament could not impeach a king, but could his ministers, since they were not competent to judge the king, so too do I feel with regard to the papacy.
Of course Aquinas, being the rad-trad that he is, thinks even the pope should sometimes be publicly rebuked by his subjects! Look at the rad trad interpretation of Paul rebuking Peter!
Still it must be know that where danger to the faith is imminent, prelates even ought to be publicly accused by their subjects. Whence, also, Paul, who was subject to Peter, because of the imminent danger of scandal concerning the faith, publicly accused Peter. And just as the Gloss of Augustine says, on Galatians 2, Peter himself presented this example to superiors, that if they should anywhere depart from the correct path, they ought not disdain to be corrected even by inferiors. S. Th. II-II q. 33
Personally, why ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to incompetence?
October 15 at 5:12pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia "Incompetence"? I would like to think so. But a lot of things have passed the level of ignorance.
Pope Honorius was rebuked (posthumously)
October 15 at 5:50pm · Like · 3
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Jon Andrew Greig ^ That latter brings up two particular questions: how much and hard a difference between malice and incompetence? And dear lord, Honorius is another whole can of worms there.
October 15 at 5:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia just trying to inject some life into tNET, and still glad I'm not a bishop. But they can be questioned as to their orthodoxy, and their motives until such time as it doesn't look like wolves leading the flock.
October 15 at 5:57pm · Like · 2
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Jon Andrew Greig Quoting J. Pelikan on the latter question, p. 151 in vol 2 in his History of Christian Doctrine set:
But Honorius’s avoidance of Monenergism had as its corollary an explicit avowal of Monotheletism. “We confess,” he wrote, “a single will of our Lord Jesus Christ, because our nature has truly been as sumed by the divinity.” (Hon.I.Ep, (PL 80:472)) It is evident, as Maximus noted in exoneration of Honorius, that his opposition to the idea of “two wills” was based on the interpretation of “two wills” as “two contrary wills.” (Max.Opusc.20 (PG 91:244)) He did not mean that Christ was an incomplete human being, devoid of a human will, but that as a human being he did not have any action in his body nor any will in his soul that could be contrary to the action and will of God, that is, to the
action and will of his own divine nature. (Max.Opusc.20 (PG 91:241)) “But this makes it possible to explain why Honorius was a Monothelete, not to deny that he was one.” (Elert (1957) 239)
October 15 at 6:01pm · Edited · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig And the rest of that read is a pretty fascinating look at the long line of interpreting Honorius in all that.
October 15 at 6:01pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz You are all stinking rad-trads, as with that fellow Aquinas. He should be de-canonized for his position here, and his position that the object of faith is not the magisterium! The totality of what it means to be a Catholic is to be a fan of the pope. And everything he says that seems wrong is not distortions by the media! People misunderstanding him!
Heck, you know the Synod document? Well the word valutando can, maybe, meaning merely to evaluate, not value sexual orientation, so see the document is wonderful and perfect. And you are all bad Reactionary Catholics and there is not difference between you and Fundamentalist Catholics, as Mark Shea pointed out....only that we must accept now that protestants, heck everybody is in the body of Christ, except rad trads and the SSPX and those that criticize the pope, unless they are Orthodox or protestant, in which case they are brothers, but not you guys, you guys are enemies of the Church
October 15 at 8:13pm · Edited · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia #rantgnosis
October 15 at 6:01pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia so if modernism is the synthesis of all heresies, and the pope actively acts the modernist.... then.... then....
October 15 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig Erm, umm, say nothing about the Russians on that 'Orthodox' line.
October 15 at 6:02pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig Remember, they were the guys that said, 'now even the very POSSIBILITY [like, first potentiality guys] of union has been removed', to the increasingly-apostate Anglicans on their women bishops move.
October 15 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Jon Andrew Greig (no offense to any Angles here. Sorry, but... there ya go)
October 15 at 6:03pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz In all seriousness
Deus, omnium fidelium pastor et rector, famulum tuum Franciscum, quem pastorem Ecclesiae tuae praeesse voluisti, propitius respice: da ei, quaesumus, verbo et exemplo, quibus praeest, proficere: ut ad vitam, una cum grege sibi credito, perveniat sempiternam. Per Christum, Dominum nostrum. Amen.
October 15 at 6:11pm · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia that is the second collect for every Mass at my parish
October 15 at 6:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz It was the 2nd collect in Oakland when Benedict was first under fire, 2010-2011
October 15 at 7:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia every single Mass. That is the biggest failure of Popolitry - a lack of seeing that the Pope needs more prayers than anyone, being saddled with such awesome responsibility. It is analogous to the pernicious "I'm okay, you're okay" attitude.
October 15 at 7:24pm · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict I kinda want to write a book and call it "I'm Okay, You're Going To Hell"
October 15 at 8:33pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia or "I'm Okay if You're Going to Hell"
October 15 at 8:37pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick It is all about charity so such titles would be appropriate
October 15 at 8:44pm · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick And I may steal those the next time I get told that saying something is a sin is against Charity
October 15 at 8:45pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia If someone tells you that it is "a sin against Charity" tell them that you deserve the Francis treatment: they can spin what you said until it sounds charitable....
October 15 at 8:48pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Brilliant.
October 15 at 8:55pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So TNET, I am submitting an essay/showcase regarding my own haiku to a poetry journal I respect. If anyone would like to read it quickly and give me a first impression before I send it in (due today) I would be happy to inbox it to you.
October 15 at 8:57pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict It ends with this haiku:
the holy task -
give voice to the voiceless
and speak with your eyes
October 15 at 8:58pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia feel free. I'll read it next intermission
October 15 at 9:00pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I will send it along as soon as my laptop has charged. It's pretty crazy. Regarding critiques, I can handle stark realities so don't hold back. For real.
October 15 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Hit me up, Isak.
October 15 at 9:11pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Don't a man gotta get cred before he can goof around among the elite?
October 15 at 9:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Goofing gnosis shows
elite to be the same as
the unwashed masses
October 15 at 9:17pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman #UltramicroscopicsiliconvolcanoconiGnosis
http://www.theguardian.com/.../mount-sinabung-volcano...
Mount Sinabung volcano eruption – in pictures
Mount Sinabung, which had lain dormant for over 400...
THEGUARDIAN.COM
October 15 at 9:26pm · Like
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John Ashman Beitia = served
October 15 at 9:29pm · Edited · Like
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John Ashman This just in -
http://www.theonion.com/.../historians-admit-to.../
Historians Admit To Inventing Ancient Greeks
WASHINGTON—A group of leading historians held a...
THEONION.COM
October 15 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ah you edited to spell it right.
He can be taught!
October 15 at 9:33pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman The monkey learns!
October 15 at 9:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I, for one, am proud of you....
October 15 at 9:38pm · Like · 2
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John Ashman #monkeygnosis
October 15 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman #biggnosis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVvEQvnDm0
MONTY PYTHON'S THE LIFE OF BRIAN ( BIG NOSE )
HI THIS IS THE CLIP FOR MONTY PYTHON LIFE OF...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 15 at 9:46pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I keep making the mistake of thinking all of Facebook is as rational as TNET.
October 15 at 10:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia tNET is rational? hmm.....
October 15 at 10:37pm · Like · 4
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Lauren Ogrodnick Well the people on it are more rational then other people on Facebook. But yes, actually tNET is probably also more rational then the rest of Facebook. And yes I realize that I just gave TNET a higher existence.
October 15 at 10:44pm · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson You acknowledged the higher existence that was revealed to you.
October 15 at 10:52pm · Like · 5
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Jody Haaf Garneau Is anyone buying this 'we translated it wrong into English' excuse for the synod document?
October 15 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^I heard the English version was poor, but I hadn't heard it used as an excuse for the document.
October 15 at 11:19pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php...
How an incorrect translation of the synod report created chaos :: Catholic News...
EWTNNEWS.COM
October 15 at 11:22pm · Like
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Sean Robertson IF that's the case, then that only very slightly mitigates how terrible that document is. Also, by the reactions of many of the cardinals, I'd say it's more than a translation error.
October 15 at 11:28pm · Like · 7
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Jody Haaf Garneau I agree
October 15 at 11:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I don't buy it.
October 15 at 11:50pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson For the life of me, I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Does anyone not think that many prelates think this way? It's good to bring it out in the open and let the debate commence. Politics is part of the process.
October 15 at 11:54pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The church leaders in question are representative of what goes on at the parish level. This isn't going to add to confusion. People are already confused and ignorant. All these shenanigans amount to is a fight amongst Church officials that is a long time coming. Let it roll.
October 15 at 11:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Have it out.
October 15 at 11:56pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Behind closed doors.
October 16 at 12:03am · Like · 3
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Lauren Ogrodnick I agree with behind closed doors.
October 16 at 12:06am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau It doesn't help when it hits the news as the 'Church's position'.
Yes, the Church can survive this and the Holy Spirit will win out. Compared to Humanae Vitae, we are more educated as a Church (the laity); we have learned to articulate these concepts etc. but it could take a very long time to clean up this mess once it is circulated like this.
October 16 at 12:06am · Like · 2
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John Ashman This isn't even the constitutional convention.
October 16 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau At least this document has brought together the Thomists and the TOBers.
October 16 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson While you're right that confusion reigns on the parish level with regard to Church teaching, I think this is still very confusing for many people on the global level. They don't understand what this document is and what it isn't. Many people (rightly) see the Catholic Church as the last real bastion against moral relativism in our society, and they have seen this and thought all is lost. I think for anyone considering joining the Church precisely because it is supposed to reject the world, this could easily drive them away. Likewise for many uninformed Catholics who may already be in confusion about their faith.
October 16 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau BTW, confusion does not reign in my diocese -- not like this. What about yours?
October 16 at 12:07am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I'm thinking all of the Anglicans who joined in union with Rome in the last few years are going to be royally ticked off. And rightly so.
October 16 at 12:07am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson We have a good bishop, so ours isn't so bad back home, although I think it still varies from parish to parish. The problem is that it seems that many priests are also very confused and are leading their flocks astray, whether intentionally or not.
October 16 at 12:11am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau On the Anglicans: http://www.patheos.com/.../why-i-distrust-church-synods.html
Why I Distrust Church Synods
The General Synod of the Church of England is at it’s foundation, a democratically minded, man made...
PATHEOS.COM
October 16 at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Did you see Card Kasper tell the African bishops to stop talking? (he isn't listening to them anyway!) http://www.patheos.com/.../these-africans-kasper.../
“These Africans!”: Kasper Reverses Progressive Dogma
Hey, don’t listen to those African bishops! Unless...
PATHEOS.COM
October 16 at 12:12am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Maybe they aren't Catholic enough? (Those who are martyred TODAY for the faith!)
October 16 at 12:12am · Like · 2
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John Ashman Synod....isn't this riffed by Star Trek?
October 16 at 12:15am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Out diocese back in Canada is awful... This whole mess of a synod probably isn't helping.
October 16 at 12:20am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Another great article representing yet another violated group (the gays who have found solace in the Church's teaching on homosexuality): http://www.josephsciambra.com/.../family-synod-statement...
Joseph Sciambra: How Our Lord Jesus Christ Saved Me From Homosexuality,...
JOSEPHSCIAMBRA.COM|BY JOSEPH SCIAMBRA
October 16 at 12:20am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Another great interview with the priest in charge of Courage (for Catholics with SSA). If he doesn't know what it means to work in a pastoral approach with this group, no one does! http://www.ncregister.com/.../father-check-from-the...
October 16 at 12:22am · Like · 1
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John Ashman But this is nothing. I will get the download on the Mexico reaction this weekend. Hopefully no one does it in front of those they don't know are in the closet.
October 16 at 12:23am · Like
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Lauren Ogrodnick Anyone know where the line, "shut up" he explained. Comes from?
October 16 at 1:03am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I have no idea why this is somehow going to confuse people more than they are already confused and ignorant.
There is no escape from politics. There are no closed doors on countless actions over the last decades.
If this ticks people off, they should have been ticked off before. There are no surprises here, just dirty politics and longstanding division within the church.
October 16 at 1:07am · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Further, this is just a blip in the headlines. Here today and gone tomorrow.
October 16 at 1:07am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If people can't make the basic distinctions necessary in this case, or admit that there divisions exist, I think they gots problems other than this drop in the ocean, media driven event. They probably have a deeply flawed understand of how the Church works that needed to be corrected in the first place.
October 16 at 1:10am · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple It's good to get it out in the open: that gave us Nicea, Ephesus, etc., etc. Let the heretics speak their heresy! So it's clear, at least. *Then* proclaim anathema.
(I really don't have anything much to say on the matter. I'm tired, punchy, and really just wanted to deny Peterson the 36,700th comment.)
October 16 at 1:14am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But those who are watching closely already stand on either side.
October 16 at 1:11am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think that's right - serious debate is needed and getting it all out in the open and seeing the differences for what they are is key.
October 16 at 1:13am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There is no reason to expect such a synod would be anymore less messy than a parish council meeting.
October 16 at 1:14am · Like
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Isak Benedict Don't worry guys it's just a translation error.
October 16 at 1:15am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple The Church has always experienced dissent of heretical proportions. The lukewarm heresy is more dangerous than the boiling. Turn the heat up!
October 16 at 1:16am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So people are playing politics with a summary of what has gone down thus far. That's to be expected.
October 16 at 1:16am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It all strikes me as the last gasps of a certain aging and dwindling faction.
October 16 at 1:17am · Like
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Dylan Naegele Which side is the aging and dwindling faction—the anti-gay types or the liberal Catholic types?
October 16 at 1:21am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Depending on what you mean by anti-gay, both.
October 16 at 1:23am · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But I think the old style liberal Catholics are generally fading.
October 16 at 1:24am · Edited · Like
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Dylan Naegele The others aren't exactly a resounding majority: http://www.pewresearch.org/.../majority-of-u-s-catholics.../
Majority of U.S. Catholics’ opinions run counter to church on contraception,...
PEWRESEARCH.ORG
October 16 at 1:28am · Like · 2
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Dylan Naegele Here's that trend over time: http://features.pewforum.org/same-sex-marriage.../slide3.php
Gay Marriage Attitudes 2001-2014 - Pew Religion Project
A series of graphics shows how public opinion toward...
FEATURES.PEWFORUM.ORG
October 16 at 1:29am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, I've seen the stats. Like I say, this is why the synod is not surprising.
October 16 at 1:31am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But as far as where new blood and converts come
from in the US and especially globally, not to mention young clergy - it's all much more "conservative" globally and in the US as the larger group is having problems sustaining and replicating itself.
October 16 at 1:34am · Edited · Like
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Dylan Naegele If the liberal group is having trouble sustaining itself, then why has there been such a strong growth in support for gay marriage among Catholics over the last 15 years?
October 16 at 1:34am · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele That sounds like it's more than sustaining itself.
October 16 at 1:34am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No. 15 years of the same people (a liberal majority) changing their opinion which is to be expected. Not hard to understand.
People who identify as Catholic but go to mass infrequently, etc.
Basic statistical analysis and some more digging will get you there.
October 16 at 1:38am · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Meanwhile they are not sustaining themselves. The church is becoming smaller within those populations. Consolidating.
October 16 at 1:37am · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I think there is an increasing number of people supporting "gay marriage" who, in a survey, identify as Catholic, but have little-to-no actual involvement in their parish (or any parish, for that matter). The liturgical dance/puppet Mass/queer eye for the straight altar crowd is dying out, though.
October 16 at 1:37am · Unlike · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau "why has there been such a strong growth in support for gay marriage among Catholics over the last 15 years?"
Because the gay lobby groups have done their PR work better than the Catholic Church has been able to educate its flock. When you equate condoning gay marriage with being tolerant and being 'good' then you confuse people who can't put a syllogism together.
October 16 at 1:41am · Like · 2
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Dylan Naegele There's also the inconsistency of identifying civil marriage with Christian marriage. The former is a secular contract with various legal and tax benefits while the latter is a sacrament. Two different beasts.
October 16 at 1:44am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Not when you use the word marriage.
October 16 at 1:44am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Maybe a 'relationship' or 'union' but marriage is looked on as the same thing in and out of the church for those who are equivalent to the status (i.e.: non-Christian marriage for non-Christians; Catholic marriage for Catholics -- whatever is on par with their status)
October 16 at 1:45am · Like · 1
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Dylan Naegele Let's not get into semantics here. They may share a name, but that's about it.
October 16 at 1:46am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Why else would non-Catholics need an annulment for a first marriage (even those outside of the Church)?
October 16 at 1:47am · Unlike · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau semantics // definitions -- what's the difference?
October 16 at 1:47am · Like
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Dylan Naegele A misuse of the word on my part, apologies. I meant that the equivocal naming shouldn't distract from the fact that the two are distinct entities with very few similarities.
October 16 at 1:48am · Edited · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau That isn't how the Church sees it. We treat all marriages as valid when between a male and female (as long as they follow the rule I gave above about equivalent status with regards to religion)
October 16 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti What's up you guys? http://www.theatlantic.com/.../facebook-and-apple.../381409/
Facebook and Apple Will Pay for Employees to Freeze Their Eggs
The procedure, for a long time available only to the...
THEATLANTIC.COM|BY MEGAN GARBER
October 16 at 1:53am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Beneficent corporations. Magnanimous, even.
October 16 at 1:55am · Unlike · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti We are living in a Huxley novel.
October 16 at 1:55am · Like · 6
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Michael Horton Is this cheaper than babysitting?
October 16 at 2:00am · Like · 2
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Edward Langley What Jody says, the sacrament builds upon a natural institution in one way, the civil marriage builds on that same institution in another.
October 16 at 3:28am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Cardinal Kasper took a break from the synod yesterday to give a lecture here in Vienna: http://ktfw.univie.ac.at/.../e-Einladung_dies_2014.pdf
I was there.
All the Viennese theologians were cooing over him like doves in the most disgusting way. The talk was interesting though. He talked about the influence of German "democratic romanticism" on Argentine "people of God theology." Part of it was wishful thinking, but part of it was actually rather helpful for understanding Argentinian, Jesuit theology.
October 16 at 6:36am · Edited · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund He also talked some nonsense about inculturation, and disagreed with Pope Benedict's Regensburg lecture on the matter de-hellinization etc.
October 16 at 6:37am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I bet that would have been an interesting talk to be present at.
October 16 at 6:44am · Like · 1
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John Ashman Keep in mind there are 4m new 18 year olds every year in the US and 4m old farts pass on. Big engine of change.
October 16 at 8:19am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I don't know why we shouldn't be upset, Peterson, at the synod. as you say, "politics is everywhere", But in this case there is an orthodox and a heterodox position. We already have canons on marriage - this stuff is defined. And the men who are charged with upholding orthodoxy should do just that.
But who am I to judge?
October 16 at 8:40am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Part of the reason to not be upset is that this document does not represent anything official.
What is represented by this document is that there are some mid-level maybe high-level Vatican officials who are pushing a progressive agenda.
October 16 at 8:47am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But this is nothing new.
October 16 at 8:47am · Like
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Michael Beitia newness has nothing to do with the wrongness of it. How can we not be upset, Big Angry, when the flock is being lead by wolves? Even if the document is not official, the publicly proclaimed private opinions of some of the cardinals is heterodox. And heterodox bishops is beyond "oh that's nothing new".
October 16 at 9:04am · Like · 4
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Monica Murphy @ Michael - yes, there are orthodox and heterodox positions, and doctrine won't change. But some of the canons on marriage can be changed. The requirement to follow canonical form for validity, for example, was intended to prevent clandestine marriages and has ("only") been around since Trent. The Synod could conceivably get rid of this or other canons, or modify canonical form. Not that I think that would necessarily be a bad idea. But it could be.
October 16 at 9:04am · Like
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Monica Murphy I mean to say canons can be modified without changing doctrine - just because there's a canon doesn't mean something is *permanently* defined.
October 16 at 9:06am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia the anathemas of Trent certainly are.
October 16 at 9:06am · Like · 3
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Monica Murphy Yes. But not all canons are equally permanent--though they're equally binding while in force.
October 16 at 9:09am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Not really disagreeing with you - just commenting on "We already have canons on marriage--this stuff is defined." What exactly did you mean by "defined", in context?
October 16 at 9:10am · Like
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Michael Beitia for example:
CANON II.-If any one saith, that it is lawful for Christians to have several wives at the same time, and that this is not prohibited by any divine law; let him be anathema
October 16 at 9:11am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia therefore, if there is a big societal polygamy push, I would expect the bishops to push back, not rescind the anathema
October 16 at 9:12am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy "Let him be anathema" VS "Let him not feel discriminated against". More than a difference in tone.
October 16 at 9:15am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia "polygamists have various and unique gifts to offer the Church"
October 16 at 9:15am · Edited · Like · 6
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Michael Beitia "we need to be especially careful of the children of polygamist unions"
October 16 at 9:18am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy Yeah no kidding.
October 16 at 9:18am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Michael, while I have shown utter disdain for tenure track positions, I am a theologian and do aspire to serve the church in this capacity, this is perhaps why I am so slow to condemn the seeming errors of the document at hand.
October 16 at 9:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I would go so far as to say that Card. Kasper's behavior seems to be highly suspect.
October 16 at 9:20am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman with regards to orthodoxy, I mean.
October 16 at 9:20am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm a blue collar working stiff. I can say what I like. Keep circumspect.
October 16 at 9:20am · Like · 5
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Monica Murphy The canonical form canon could actually do with some upgrading: Practicing Catholic engaged to non-practicing Catholic. The non-practicing one is now an agnostic/atheist, but hasn't made a formal act of defection from the Church. Non-practicing Catholic refuses to get married in the Church for conscientious reasons, but will tolerate raising kids Catholic. Currently, a dispensation from canonical form cannot be given to two baptized Catholics, thus leaving our engaged couple with no possibility of a valid marriage.
October 16 at 9:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman In general, I think we should wait for the official documents to come out and put out fires where we can. \
October 16 at 9:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Monica, I think you are right about updating canons.
October 16 at 9:22am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia perhaps Daniel, but yesterday was the feast day of St. Teresa of Avila. I felt like that was a good time to critique the hierarchy
October 16 at 9:22am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Currently, if a man abducts a woman for the sake of marriage, that marriage is invalid.
But, if a woman abducts a man for the sake of marriage, there is no invalidity.
Seems strange.
October 16 at 9:23am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I critique things as well, Michael Beitia. I just try to use phrases like, "it seems misleading" or "There seems to be a confusion," or ït is unclear how such a statement accurately represents the truth."
October 16 at 9:25am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia modernist
(36763 #palindromegnosis)
October 16 at 9:27am · Edited · Like · 4
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Monica Murphy Strange indeed. Hopefully they update that along with the requirement to follow form.
October 16 at 9:26am · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman "It seems misleading."
There is, here, some confusion"
Critiquing bishops
October 16 at 9:28am · Like · 2
--##--%%--##--
Daniel Lendman Or
'Round and 'round and 'round.
Never stating the real point.
Modernist loving.
October 16 at 9:29am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia heterodoxy
so high up makes me wish for
anathema sit
October 16 at 9:30am · Unlike · 5
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Monica Murphy Abduct your boyfriend!
Totally fine. Your marriage
Is a ball and chain.
October 16 at 9:31am · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia ^that one is actually good
October 16 at 9:31am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman She's an English teacher.
October 16 at 9:32am · Like · 3
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Monica Murphy Agnostic boyfriend
With integrity: No chance
Of validity.
October 16 at 9:36am · Like · 3
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Monica Murphy I don't think they're supposed to rhyme, though.
October 16 at 9:36am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Wait it can be valid, just not sacramental. For the Catholic and agnostic.
October 16 at 9:37am · Like
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Monica Murphy Not if the agnostic began as a baptized Catholic.
October 16 at 9:38am · Like · 2
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Monica Murphy Canonical form is a requirement for validity between two baptized Catholics no matter what their beliefs.
October 16 at 9:38am · Like · 3
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Monica Murphy http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/.../an-orientation-to.../
An orientation to the question of canonical form for marriage
Further to my observation that the future of canonical...
CANONLAWBLOG.WORDPRESS.COM
October 16 at 9:42am · Like
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Max Summe Everytime I walk away from tNET, I come back and feel like a child who just wondered into the middle of a movie....
October 16 at 9:44am · Like · 8
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Monica Murphy With the time difference between the States and China, I have to get caught up on like 8 hours of tNETing every morning. It's non-stop scrolling, lurking, and liking while having coffee, brushing teeth, and running out the door for work on time.
October 16 at 9:46am · Like · 7
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Max Summe tNET spans continents. tNET spans many moons....
October 16 at 9:47am · Like · 5
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Max Summe Do you all realize tNET had its 2 month birthday 2 days ago? Did anybody do anything to celebrate?
October 16 at 9:48am · Unlike · 5
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Max Summe did anybody bake tNET a cake? Or sing it Happy Birthday?
October 16 at 9:49am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov I sing to it each day, I thought everyone did?
October 16 at 9:50am · Like · 6
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Max Summe #gnosis and #gnocci: A tNET story.
October 16 at 9:55am · Like · 5
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Max Summe Thanks to Samantha Cohoe for adding the #gnocci
October 16 at 9:55am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman gnocchi!
October 16 at 10:00am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I mostly tNET at "work"
October 16 at 10:12am · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman http://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Lockheed-says-makes...
Lockheed makes breakthrough on fusion energy project
By Andrea Shalal WASHINGTON, Oct 15 (Reuters) -...
DAILYMAIL.CO.UK
October 16 at 10:12am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov If there is anyone who can do it it will be Lockheed. But I won't get my hopes until I see a model that at least spits out more energy than they have to put into it.
October 16 at 10:14am · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Is there any point at which cheaper energy would not be regarded as a good thing?
October 16 at 10:22am · Like
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Richard Nutley I hear it's what brought down Atlantis
October 16 at 10:23am · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley No more natural constraints on their version of tNET
October 16 at 10:24am · Like
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Max Summe Brought down atlantis?
October 16 at 10:24am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov The Antlantian empire was destroyed when a series of fusion reactors buried deep in power stations across the island went critical. This caused a subduction fault to submerge the entire civilization.
October 16 at 10:31am · Like · 5
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Max Summe Naturally...
October 16 at 10:38am · Like
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Joel HF Peterson--you really don't see why people this would be misleading? I guess the Prefect of the CDF should just chill out. Nothing to see here. #everythingisawesomegnosis
October 16 at 10:40am · Like · 4
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Richard Nutley Others say the Downfall was caused by Manwë changing the world from flat to round so that no sailor could find the West again.
October 16 at 10:40am · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I was trying to break my tNET addiction, Max, then you tagged me in, then I find Monica was here and Big Angry is making careful statements....
October 16 at 10:40am · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov This morning on tNET: Atlantis and fusion reactors. It is what we like to call a Monty Python moment "and now for something completely different".
October 16 at 10:41am · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley flat earth to round earth
thanks, humani generis
the End of the world
October 16 at 10:41am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oleg-- that's not your real name. I forget your real name, but I remember that's not it.
October 16 at 10:42am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'm going to go make this http://smittenkitchen.com/.../cheddar-beer-and-mustard.../
cheddar, beer and mustard pull-apart bread | smitten kitchen
A home cooking weblog from a tiny kitchen in New...
SMITTENKITCHEN.COM
October 16 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe #domesticgoddessgnosis
October 16 at 10:42am · Like · 2
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Max Summe Don't blame me for your tNET addiction Samantha Cohoe. I may be a pusher, but you're the one with the problem....
October 16 at 10:44am · Like · 4
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Max Summe I made this my status, but I think tNET may be more help:
When Mormons come to the door, it is customary to invite them in for a beer or some coffee.
When Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door, you invite them in for...?
A blood transfusion?
October 16 at 10:46am · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I don't have a problem. I can quit whenever I want.
October 16 at 10:47am · Like · 5
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Joel HF http://goo.gl/78O1GG
#Synodgnosis
Everything Is AWESOME!!! -- The LEGO® Movie -- Tegan and Sara feat....
YOUTUBE.COM
October 16 at 10:48am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland ^Joel, you didn't!!! #mindvirusgnosis
October 16 at 10:48am · Like · 4
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Sean Robertson Joel, that song is disturbingly accurate in this context.
October 16 at 10:51am · Like · 2
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Joel HF The guarantee is that the Church will ultimately prevail. The guarantee in the hear and now is that the church will not be utterly defeated. It is uncatholic, not to say idiotic, to pretend that nothing troubling is occurring, or that there is not a very real possibility of things getting even worse (cf. 2 Peter 2).
I guess the way it is viewed now, St. Athanasius should have relaxed about the whole Arian thing. After all, this is a political process, the truth is found through heresy, this is just a development not a change, the translation was faulty, and everything is awesome! Woo-hoo! #synodgnosis
October 16 at 11:00am · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Samantha, I have a habit of making a careful statements now.
October 16 at 11:00am · Like
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John Ruplinger Quick realty check: what in the synod midterm report was a) about the family; b) about the Faith? Jimmy Akin's summary is good. To summarize that with one quote: it's "turgid ecclesiastical bafflegab." shameful, unworthy and totally sbagliata.
October 16 at 11:04am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, I think it is a little different than the way you are suggesting.
The document, Relatio, literally is meaningless.
Pray for the Church always, and especially during the Synod.
But there is no reason to get excited...yet.
October 16 at 11:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman If I were a cardinal, I would be doing exactly the kind of thing Burke and Dolan are doing.
October 16 at 11:03am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But, as a layman, I wait and see; I put out fires as I can.
October 16 at 11:03am · Like
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Joel HF If I were a Cardinal, I'd be w/ the Prefect (for now) of the CDF.
October 16 at 11:03am · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--the pope has asked that laypeople speak up and express themselves with parrhesia. I'm just trying to follow his directions here.
October 16 at 11:04am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman By all means, speak up, Joel HF.
October 16 at 11:05am · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Daniel, I think the range of bishop's responses to the Relatio allow for some righteous anger. I know in my diocese it will take more than distinguishing it's relative unimportance and unofficially to "put out the fires" it will surely cause here. The Relatio is "an undignified and shameful report," plain and simple. This is pace Matthew's comment that we shouldn't be surprised, and that it is indeed a blip on the radar, please God.
October 16 at 11:05am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman I just don't want you to get to anxious about the synod yet.
October 16 at 11:05am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I am always very reluctant to judge bishop's actions, for various reasons.
I agree with you about Relatio, on the whole. However, do you know who is responsible for it being made public?
October 16 at 11:07am · Like
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Isak Benedict I'm not really anxious about the synod and I'm certain Church teaching will remain in place. But the Relatio is a grotesque, stinking piece of sly propaganda.
October 16 at 11:07am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Even if the synod ends well, the Relatio isn't going to go away and it will remain useful for the progressive agenda.
October 16 at 11:07am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Isak. But who is responsible for relatio?
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Adrw Lng Oh, what Isak said
October 16 at 11:08am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I don't think so, Adrw...
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Isak Benedict Exactly Adrw.
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Max Summe No, you invite JW's to birthday parties! #JWgnosis
October 16 at 11:08am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Does anyone know who is responsible for relatio being published?
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isak?
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Adrw?
October 16 at 11:08am · Like
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Isak Benedict There seems to be some confusion about who is responsible. The evidence suggests it was "translated in haste."
October 16 at 11:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I know *lots* of people who don't have the slightest intention of living as Catholics, but who are nevertheless overjoyed at the prospect of doctrinal changes that this document gives them reason to hope for, because the Catholic Church is one of the last authorities that still says unpopular, true things about marriage and sexuality. That should at least give pause about the wisdom of releasing this document.
October 16 at 11:09am · Unlike · 7
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Adrw Lng Cardinal Burke's answer to your question Daniel Lendman: The interventions of the individual Synod Fathers are not made available to the public, as has been the case in the past. All of the information regarding the Synod is controlled by the General Secretariat of the Synod which clearly has favored from the beginning the positions expressed in the Relatio post disceptationem of yesterday morning.
While the individual interventions of the Synod Fathers are not published, yesterday’s Relatio, which is merely a discussion document, was published immediately and, I am told, even broadcast live. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to see the approach at work, which is certainly not of the Church. …
While the document in question (Relatio post disceptationem) purports to report only the discussion which took place among the Synod Fathers, it, in fact, advances positions which many Synod Fathers do not accept and, I would say, as faithful shepherds of the flock cannot accept. Clearly, the response to the document in the discussion which immediately followed its presentation manifested that a great number of the Synod Fathers found it objectionable.
October 16 at 11:09am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Why is this question of such immediacy to you?
October 16 at 11:09am · Like
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Sean Robertson I assumed that to some extent it was Cardinal Erdo's decision.
October 16 at 11:10am · Like
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Isak Benedict The response of many of the Cardinals was a very clear condemnation.
October 16 at 11:11am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman The point is that all signs are that it was made public by some mid-level vatican bureaucrat possibly at Card. Erdo's encouragement.
There were all sorts of things said at the Synod and lots was left out.
October 16 at 11:11am · Like
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John Ruplinger The working document meme is a load of crap. Rorate called it out way before it began. It is now being used to bring bishops in line. Cardinal Pell saw the document for what it is. He gets how these things get played out.
October 16 at 11:11am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The final word will be known much later... a year from now.
October 16 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Joel HF My parents hesitated coming into the church for years because of double-speak like this. This affects people, who are actually on the fence about following what the church actually teaches. I know of couples who are engaged and are under pressure from relatives and even parents to cohabit prior to marriage. You think this sort of thing helps them?
The idea is to use a change in "pastoral approach" or even a seeming change in pastoral approach to slowly (gradually?) change the dogma. I hate to be the one to break it to you all, but this is the same damn strategy that prevailed after Vatican II. The lack of clarity is taken--and not without reason!--to be the greenlight to tamper with the liturgy and with church teaching (always "pastorally" of course).
But, sorry I keep forgetting, it's springtime in the church right now! #everythingisawesome
October 16 at 11:13am · Edited · Like · 7
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Adrw Lng It is true that lots of things are being left out, like Africa and orthodoxy. LOL
October 16 at 11:12am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Somebody with an agenda tried to influence the media and put pressure on the Synod.
October 16 at 11:12am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It won't work.
October 16 at 11:12am · Like
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Isak Benedict In the meantime, confused Catholics are going to communion because "Pope Francis changed all those rules."
October 16 at 11:12am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I see no evidence of that, Isak.
October 16 at 11:13am · Like
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Isak Benedict "Spriiiingtime, for Kasper, in the Vaticaaaaaan"
October 16 at 11:13am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman However, I think that Francis, perhaps, is a little naive about the way the progressives would try to manipulate the media surrounding the Synod.
October 16 at 11:14am · Like
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Adrw Lng The problem is that the people running the agenda are in the synod. I pray that Pope Francis in his silence sees how clearly things are playing out. If he did this intentionally planning a move in the overtime, he is a genius!
October 16 at 11:14am · Like
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Isak Benedict There are three examples in this article, unless the author is lying. http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/advice-for-the-pope
Advice for the Pope in Light of the Synod - Crisis Magazine
The Holy Father has been very good in lecturing...
CRISISMAGAZINE.COM
October 16 at 11:14am · Like
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Michael Beitia this is so Newmann.
#developmentofdoctrinegnosis
October 16 at 11:15am · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--if by "it won't work" you mean that, ultimately, Christ will come again in glory then I agree. If by "it won't work" you mean that the Church will never *officially* and *solemnly* defect from the true faith, then I agree.
If by "it won't work" you mean they can't use it (and things like it) to obfuscate and mislead Catholics world-wide, then you haven't been paying attention to the last 50 years.
October 16 at 11:17am · Edited · Like · 7
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Isak Benedict Can a man be naive about what will happen if he keeps shoving a slab of meat in Fido's face? I don't blame the media, they're doing what they've always done.
October 16 at 11:16am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman If everyone evaluates the actually evidence that has been given, your reactions should be much like mine.
1.) Relatio is a foolish document that never should have been published.
2.) Not surprsingly, there are still liberal-progressive elements at work in the Vatican.
3.) There are a lot of really good bishops who are working hard to counter the ill effects of some, seemingly, imprudent bishops.
October 16 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Daniel, to use a different example, a number of politicians in some state (Illinois? Can't remember) used the "Who am I to judge?" to justify changing their vote to support SSM. And I don't think they were all disingenuous. Many people see things like that and think it means change. Yes, they should do more research. Yes, they should read the Catechism. But the fact is that many well-intentioned people won't do that, and things like this lead them into error about the Church's teaching.
October 16 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman No, Joel, I mean something far more determinate. I am not one those who is convinced that nothing bad can ever be done in the Church or in the Vatican.
What I mean, is that relatio will have minimal influenceand will be all but forgotten, soon enough.
October 16 at 11:18am · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel, do you not think the release of this document has done and will do practically irreparable damage to Catholics who do not know their faith as well as you do?
October 16 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Per 3.) that has indeed been very heartening Daniel
October 16 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Why do you think it will be forgotten?
October 16 at 11:19am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sean, you are very right about the "Who am I to judge?' thing... Another sign of Francis' well meaning, but ultimately naive discourse.
October 16 at 11:19am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Isak, because the official synod document will eventually come out.
October 16 at 11:20am · Like
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Isak Benedict Most Catholics do not understand the hierarchical nature of statements to the public from the Vatican. They can't distinguish between an "interim summary document" and a papal bull.
October 16 at 11:20am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman And people hate the Catholic church, so they are going to be far more excited to show how the Catholic Church hasn't changed andis still the devil etc .
October 16 at 11:20am · Like · 1
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Joel HF I pray that this is true, Daniel. But I fear the final document next year, while it will probably withdraw from the errors, will do so with the typical ambiguous language that is favored by modern theologians, and will not clearly condemn those errors. Please God you are right and I am wrong.
October 16 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson That was one passing statement (followed, I might add, immediately by pointing to the teaching in the Catechism) over a year ago, and it hasn't been forgotten. A whole document, regardless of its actual status, is even more likely to be used as progressive confusion fodder for time to come.
October 16 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Do not expect condemnations.
October 16 at 11:21am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia stop judging! God loves the relatio
October 16 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The Church will get the document it deserves, Joel.
October 16 at 11:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sean, importantly, the pope hasn't said anything about this, yet.
October 16 at 11:23am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman What Francis says on the matter, finally, will be the lasting legacy of this Synod.
October 16 at 11:23am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Everything else will fade into the background.
October 16 at 11:23am · Like
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Sean Robertson Ultimately, I'm not super worried, especially since this Synod is a lead up to next year's, where more definitive things will be said. I'm just worried about the negative impact it will have in the meantime.
October 16 at 11:23am · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia That's what worries me
October 16 at 11:23am · Like · 3
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Joel HF ^Daniel--I'm praying that we don't get what we deserve, but that God, in his mercy, remembers the goodness of his saints and spares us all.
October 16 at 11:23am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman What Francis says on the matter, finally, will be the lasting legacy of this Synod.
October 16 at 11:24am · Like
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Isak Benedict Daniel, I currently teach hundreds of extremely ignorant Catholic sophomores who do not even know the difference between mortal and venial sin. They are informed by the popular accounts of what happens in the Vatican and are only nominally Catholic for the most part. They are relativist, progressive, modern...you name it. They have nothing comparable to the kind of upbringing and education you've had. I think you are right about many things, but the lasting influence of this document among the young people I currently try to teach is detrimental in the extreme.
October 16 at 11:24am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Daniel, agreed. The Pope has thus far been silent, no doubt by design. While that is somewhat troubling/frustrating, when he does finally speak, I don't see it being heavily in favour of the progressives.
October 16 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Isak, do not forget that I taught at a Catholic High school for four years.
October 16 at 11:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I know. Isak. I know
October 16 at 11:25am · Like
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Isak Benedict They can't distinguish between the news of today and the what Francis ultimately says tomorrow. At best, they will think the Church can't make up its mind.
October 16 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Then you know where I'm coming from!
October 16 at 11:26am · Like
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Adrw Lng At any rate, we should hope greatly even in anger "The Lord has always revealed to mortals the treasures of his wisdom and his spirit, but now that the face of evil bares itself more and more, so does the Lord bare his treasures more."
October 16 at 11:26am · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Where did you teach?
October 16 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Santa Clara High School, in Oxnard CA.
October 16 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman My experience is, Isak, that most of them won't know about it or care about it, one way or another. You might get a question in class, but that will be all.
October 16 at 11:29am · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict Probably a comparable demographic then - low-income, under-privileged, broken home...
October 16 at 11:27am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict You're right that they won't know the details, but they will have been permeated with the generalities.
October 16 at 11:28am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Which is arguably worse.
October 16 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman If an uneducated Catholic asked me about it I would just say. "Well, there is nothing official, actually. Relatio is really just a lot of brainstorming. The Bishops are trying to figure out how to work with people who are in a hard situation."
October 16 at 11:29am · Like
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Isak Benedict They will still come away with the SENSE, unclear as it is, that the Church is "relaxing its attitude."
October 16 at 11:30am · Edited · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Maybe.
October 16 at 11:29am · Like
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Michael Beitia definitely
October 16 at 11:30am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Not maybe! It's already happening everywhere!
October 16 at 11:30am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman <sigh>
October 16 at 11:30am · Like
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Isak Benedict I cannot agree that the Relatio will not have a lasting, damaging effect on poorly educated Catholics everywhere.
October 16 at 11:30am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe It's happening in my circles, which are mostly quite different than the rest of y'alls.
October 16 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia compare the language of "Unam Sanctam" to Mystici Corporis (and the excommunication document of Father Feeney) and then Lumen Gentium. Tell me this is not guaranteed to cause confusion
October 16 at 11:31am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Wait and see.
October 16 at 11:31am · Like
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Sean Robertson For the record, Daniel, I appreciate your desire to not overreact. I just think the damage is already being done.
October 16 at 11:31am · Like · 2
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Joel HF The progressive bishops use this as justification to be even more bold in denying the doctrine of God. These bishops are already doing this.
Of course, it is true that Church history is full of evil bishops, lax bishops, weak bishops and so on.
October 16 at 11:31am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman The damage started after Vatican II. This is not a new problem.
October 16 at 11:31am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I can agree with that.
October 16 at 11:32am · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig *more sigh*
October 16 at 11:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia yes, but it seems to get more and more support from wolves in sheeps' clothing
October 16 at 11:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman These liberal bishops are dying out.
October 16 at 11:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Look to the seminaries.
October 16 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia to be replaced by......
October 16 at 11:32am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In 20 years, the kinds of bishops we will have will be vastly different.
October 16 at 11:33am · Like
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Isak Benedict I do see much hope there for the future. But the starry-eyed young clergymen of tomorrow sure do have their proverbial work cut out for them.
October 16 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I think it's true that the late JPII era and BXVI era priests are still up and coming.
October 16 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson That gives me hope.
October 16 at 11:33am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman It is the orthodox seminaries and monasteries that have vocations.
October 16 at 11:33am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Look to the Seminaries? Mundalein seminary was affectionately known as "the enchanted forest"
October 16 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Here's a Bishop's take: http://goo.gl/2fi94c
» Blog Archive » A VIEW FROM THE SIDELINES
As one who was somewhat skeptical ever since Pope Francis unveiled his intention to call a synod to address the issue of marriage and family life in our day, I must say that the work product from the first week of Part I of the currently convened Extraordinary Synod exceeds my fondest hopes and pray…
BISHOPSBLOG.DOSP.ORG
October 16 at 11:37am · Edited · Like
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Sean Robertson I just hope that the trends continue, despite recent changes in the hierarchical attitude.
October 16 at 11:34am · Like
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Daniel Lendman You will see the true and good fruit of Vatican II in about 30 to 40 years.
October 16 at 11:34am · Like
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Michael Beitia Daniel, I highly doubt that
October 16 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman We have a lot of work to do.
October 16 at 11:35am · Like
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Joel HF In 30 to 40 years, in what sense will it be the fruits of Vatican II?
October 16 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman But it is happening.
October 16 at 11:35am · Like
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Sean Robertson The problem is that to continue developing good seminarians, you need to continue to appoint good bishops.
October 16 at 11:35am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia exactly
October 16 at 11:35am · Like
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Sean Robertson BXVI clearly made appointing solid bishops a priority.
October 16 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Francis seems to have different priorities when it comes to bishop appointments.
October 16 at 11:36am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia 'different priorities' - ha
October 16 at 11:36am · Like
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Isak Benedict At least Francis removed Livieres...
October 16 at 11:36am · Like
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Sean Robertson (Which are not all bad, for the record)
October 16 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman The vatican II docs are still the guiding documents for the Church today, Joel HF. In 30 years, the men who were educated as priests under the bishops who were able to process the first effects of the council will be bishops and they will have a real impact.
October 16 at 11:37am · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Oh, just send your circles to tNET. tNET can *totally* set them straight about what the RCC teaches.
October 16 at 11:37am · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman We are waiting for all the people who were at the council to, die off, efffectivelty.
October 16 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe May they never meet.
October 16 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Joel HF The council is SO GREAT! But to really appreciate it, first all the people involved in it in any way have to die off!!!
October 16 at 11:38am · Like · 7
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Daniel Lendman Benedict XVI said essentially the same thing, that for him, he can't really be objective about the council because it was a real event in his life. We will be able to bring Vatican II into effect. Truly.
October 16 at 11:39am · Unlike · 1
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Isak Benedict I'm glad there are some so hopeful out there, Daniel. Me, I'm pretty much of the "no sooner on the ark than you have to man the pumps" mentality.
October 16 at 11:39am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia bwahahahaha
October 16 at 11:39am · Like
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Adrw Lng I'm not sure the Relatio will have a lasting effect for Catholics in general, but I am sure that is will be celebrated in certain circles of leadership throughout the Church. It will be celebrated as an example of the Church "speaking for itself" by LCWR types. It will be daft play indeed for Francis to take a different stance and not manage to alienate those he's allowing to take the synod's stage.
October 16 at 11:39am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, it is always that way.
October 16 at 11:39am · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Daniel Lendman How is it always that way?!
October 16 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes. Adrw Lng.
October 16 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Look at the history of the Church.
October 16 at 11:41am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Read what St. Basil the Great said about the aftermath of the council in his day.
October 16 at 11:42am · Like
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Sean Robertson In the VII documents, from what I can tell, there is much intentionally vague language, necessary for the conservatives and progressives (to use blanket terms) to agree on enough to form a document. So we just need people in charge who interpret those vague parts conservatively, and much could be accomplished. I think Daniel is probably right.
October 16 at 11:42am · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil @Daniel Lendman I don't think lack of objectivity is the problem here
October 16 at 11:42am · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm sorry, but why do we even reference VII? What does it mean to be a "pastoral council"?
October 16 at 11:42am · Unlike · 3
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Daniel Lendman After Nicea, Arianism (which Nicea was supposed to stop) instead, spread like wildfire and got even more sophisticated. It was madness.
October 16 at 11:43am · Like
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Joel HF Look at the history indeed. Not every council is remembered after some time has passed.
October 16 at 11:43am · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Pastoral in intent, Michael.
October 16 at 11:43am · Like
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Michael Beitia and non-definitive.
October 16 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman There are a handful of councils that really connected with the day and age of the council.
October 16 at 11:44am · Like
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Michael Beitia and all of them defined something, anathematized something, or promulgated canons on something.... except.....
October 16 at 11:44am · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Daniel Lendman Are you trying to say that the Council Fathers themselves were liberal/progressive/what-have-you, but yet produced a body of work that will ultimately bear fruit conservative fruit, once those liberal periti are out of the way?
October 16 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman "To what shall I liken our present condition? It may be compared, I think, to some naval battle which has arisen out of time old quarrles, and is fought by me who cherish a deadly hate against one another, of long experience in naval warfare and eager for the fight"
-Basil the Great.
October 16 at 11:47am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Define pastoral. Were other councils non-pastoral?
October 16 at 11:48am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yes, Catherine. Though, not all were liberal/progressive/what-have-you. We all owe a great deal to the saintly Cardinal Ottaviani.
October 16 at 11:48am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Michael Beitia , the fact that something was not defined or condemned should, in fairness, be seen as a sign of health.
October 16 at 11:49am · Like
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John Ruplinger Scott could say something of the metaphor in the words "pascendi Dominici gregis".
October 16 at 11:50am · Like
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Joel HF It is a sign of health the way spiking a fever when infected with a virus is a sign of health.
October 16 at 11:50am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Finally, my point is that we are still fighting the post Vatican II war. The good guys are winning. This Synod is a battle, where the bad guys made a really effective first strike. However, this is one battle in the context of a war the bad guys are, on the whole, losing.
October 16 at 11:51am · Unlike · 3
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Sean Robertson I think we should all pause to appreciate the fact that our discussion of the Synod has devolved into an argument about Vatican II, thus putting us on level with pretty much every other discussion of the Synod.
October 16 at 11:52am · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman True, Sean.
October 16 at 11:53am · Unlike · 1
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Daniel Lendman But that was really my fault.
October 16 at 11:53am · Unlike · 2
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Daniel Lendman That being said, I think it is right to say that this is part of the same fight.
October 16 at 11:53am · Like · 6
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Sean Robertson Agreed, Daniel.
October 16 at 11:53am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson I agree with the point you're making about VII and the Synod. Although the pessimist in me says it's quite possible that things will get worse before they get better.
October 16 at 11:54am · Like
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Michael Beitia not if it is used to define and condemn after the fact. It is a sign of grave obscurity. Misleading the faithful is grievous sin for those charged with the care of the faithful. (edit: Daniel)
October 16 at 11:55am · Edited · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman That is true Michael Beitia. God bless our bishops.
October 16 at 11:58am · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick Cardinal Ottaviani did lots of good, but lots of his stuff was ignored also, but he probably prevented it from being much worse.
October 16 at 12:00pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF A day late, but nonetheless, St. Teresa of Avila, pray for us!
Let nothing disturb you,
Let nothing frighten you,
All things are passing away:
God never changes.
Patience obtains all things
Whoever has God lacks nothing;
God alone suffices.
October 16 at 12:01pm · Like · 6
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John Ruplinger I am in earnest about the word pastoral. It is not new but used in a new way and its not easy to define its various meanings beginning with Our Lord's. E.g. "Feed my sheep." (And there is clearly an insinuation that pre VII was not pastoral or in the wrong way with which I take issue since it disparages many great saints' pastoral charism.)
October 16 at 12:02pm · Like
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Sean Robertson This is also encouraging:
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/.../family-synod.../
Family synod: Cardinal Napier added to drafting committee
Updated translation of mid-term report released by...
CATHOLICHERALD.CO.UK
October 16 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson And perhaps a direct shot at Kasper?
October 16 at 12:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Sean, I think that is very telling.
October 16 at 12:21pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Do not forget where our Holy Father came from and how strongly he fought the homosexual agenda in his own country.
October 16 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman You all should worry about Ebola, more than the Synod.
October 16 at 12:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Or, the next president of the United States:
http://time.com/3512657/rand-paul-reinventions/
The Reinventions of Rand Paul
Can he fix what ails the GOP?
TIME.COM
October 16 at 12:22pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman The Vatican today released an updated version of the English translation of the mid-term report. The translation has been re-worded so that it now refers to “providing for homosexuals” rather than “welcoming homosexuals.”
In a press conference Cardinal Schönborn told reporters that the final report will include “many expressions of caution” compared with the mid-term report.
He also added that the Church wants to accompany co-habiting couples on the path to marriage and that “accompanying” people did not mean relativism.
The synod’s final report will be discussed in the synod hall on Saturday afternoon and voted on.
A spokesman for the Vatican said it was unlikely the final report will be published on Saturday.
October 16 at 12:26pm · Like · 1
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Lauren Ogrodnick I'm already worried that Canada won't let me go home for Christmas because of Ebola in the USA
October 16 at 12:29pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yeah, Lauren, but there is snow there so you should probably not go anyway.
October 16 at 12:32pm · Unlike · 2
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Kurt Van Sciver Sounds like the original report was the "mid-day report" of the synod.
October 16 at 12:52pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Lauren, that had better not happen to me...
October 16 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson (Or you)
October 16 at 12:55pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I think most of this discussion is absolutely ridiculous. No one talks this way about political media.
October 16 at 1:13pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The tut-tutting is absurd. What you see is simply the manifestation of what exists within the Church and a lot of strange conservative fears born of being buffeted by daily headlines. This fight and debate is a good thing. Bring it on and have it out.
The real demographic being trolled and influenced here are people like yourselves.
October 16 at 1:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The Church will do what it does consistently, and that will include having meetings where people talk about disagreements, etc. That will include Popes speaking about things like human beings.
And the media will be the media.
The consistent trend is that older and bloated demographics and leaders are decaying while younger folks are much different, and where there is growth it is not the sort of 1960s/1970s stuff y'all are worried about.
October 16 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia yeah, it's all good
#panglossgnosis
October 16 at 1:23pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't think that the new updated translation helps much. It still reads: "Are our communities capable of this, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?" I still ask what does it mean to 'value' their orientation? Why not value the person. So they didn't even change the word (value) that others said they would change.
October 16 at 1:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Every thing is awesome!
October 16 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm not the one living in utopia in my head - and this is indeed the strange and bifurcated from the real world premise that many here adopt.
It's NOT all good. There are serious divisions here. But this ought not be a surprise.
October 16 at 1:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF ^Who's surprised?
October 16 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Matthew J. Peterson, people are allowed to talk smack about corrupt bishops. In fact, people don't do it nearly enough. Sample: Roger Mahony should be in a Carthusian cell wearing a hair shirt right now. The fact that he is in a cozy rectory in North Hollywood makes me want to puke. Any bishop who declines so speak out publicly about Mahony's crimes is complicit in them. See? That felt great! I encourage all of you do do the same w/r/t these tap dancing losers at the Synod. If we don't tell them, who will? I'm not Water Kasper's PR man.
October 16 at 1:32pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil Well, apropos of our prison reform discussion, noted legal authority John Grisham has some ideas. He thinks we're unjustly filling our prisons with people who looked at child porn "accidentally".
October 16 at 1:39pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../john-grisham-says.../
John Grisham says sentencing for child porn offenders is too harsh. They aren’t...
WASHINGTONPOST.COM
October 16 at 1:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That's MY point, Aaron Gigliotti. Let the debate happen. Have at it. But don't freak out about the fact it is happening. It's a long time coming. We need more flash points like this, not less, in my opinion.
Letting everyone pretend it's all good and letting opposing operations go on in the background is bad news.
October 16 at 1:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia is it wrong to be annoyed when bishops spout (quasi)-heresy?
October 16 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil If debate is ok, why do the easygoing moderate types keep counseling the worried conservatives not to freak out? A debate needs at least two sides. If it takes all kinds, what's wrong with righteous indignation?
October 16 at 1:43pm · Unlike · 6
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Aaron Gigliotti Well said, Catherine
October 16 at 1:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Debate is awful when it leads the faithful into sin. We're not talking about whether or not to raise the speed limit to 70, we're talking about immortal souls, which if memory serves, you only get one shot at saving.
October 16 at 1:46pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti W/r/t "the media," these bishops know that the media exist. They are not babes in the woods. They knew how the relatio would be received. That's why they did it. I'm sick of pretending that the Vatican exists in a sort of alternate universe. It does not. It exists in Rome, with freakin' Laurie Goodstein and CNN cameras hanging around.
October 16 at 1:49pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I can't force yall to read my words. Don't freak out about the debate. But sure, DEBATE. Make your voice known, etc.
OF COURSE THEY KNEW ABOUT THE MEDIA. THIS IS A FIGHT AMONGST FACTIONS. And the fight is now definitely on.
October 16 at 1:51pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia there shouldn't be "factions"
October 16 at 1:52pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia "Everyone knows that Custer died at Little Big Horn, what this novel supposes, is maybe he didn't?"
October 16 at 1:53pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and don't you capslock at me
October 16 at 1:54pm · Like · 6
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Matthew J. Peterson There always have been and always will be factions. And in this case, everyone knows that these divisions have been around for decades. If you want them overcome a messy process like this is going to have to occur at some point. In fact, there will be a lot more of this, I would guess.
October 16 at 1:55pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no, the heterodox should be excommunicated and censured if they don't repent and recant heresy
October 16 at 1:55pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, in that case, the Church would have to get very clear on which is which and who is who. And that WON'T happen without flash points like this, either.
October 16 at 1:57pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Back in the day (you know, like Thomas Aquinas' day), if someone wouldn't recant, you were supposed to execute them. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm
SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Heresy (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 11)
Is heresy a kind of unbelief? The matter about which it is. Should heretics be tolerated? Should converts be received?
NEWADVENT.ORG
October 16 at 1:58pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia mushmouthed "discussion" on issues that have been very very clear isn't "flash points".
They use enthygism and syllophor to make blah statements of no teaching value and then we're all okay!
October 16 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
October 16 at 1:59pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You people...even to get what you want, you need what is happening to happen.
October 16 at 1:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://wdtprs.com/.../synod-bishops-revolt-against.../
¡Hagan lío! Synod Bishops revolt against leadership and get their way - Fr. Z's Blog
In full view of the Pope, they rose up pretty much as a...
WDTPRS.COM
October 16 at 1:59pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson These guys are HAVING. IT. OUT. And it is about time.
October 16 at 2:00pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia you are now missing my point. But I can't force you to read what I type....
October 16 at 2:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson If you are worried about people being confus-ed, you should want them to duke this out. It will fester otherwise, as it does at the parish level throughout the world. You WANT change - you want this faction to decrease in power.
October 16 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Matthew has a point that they are hashing it out. But consensus is better: 99% of the world's bishops agreed on the dogma of the Assumption before it was promulgated.
October 16 at 2:16pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You all think you are ticked? People like Pell, Ouellet, and Muller are also ticked. And they are in powerful positions.
October 16 at 2:16pm · Like · 4
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Brian Kemple I like that there's a fight about a fight. And I will fight any one of you about this fight about a fight.
October 16 at 2:24pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger The point Beitia is making is that Kasper needs censure, not a platform for his absurd position. But condemnations are not the pastoral fashion (cf. the midterm report)
October 16 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, on this matter you say what I say with more vehemence and less conciliatory speech.
October 16 at 2:38pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Yet I get called Big Angry?
October 16 at 2:38pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Card. Erdo deserves my apology based on this:
"Erdo took the floor, implicitly distancing himself from the report that bore his name, and saying that if that “disceptatio” had been made public, then the others of the Circulo Minores ought to be made public."
October 16 at 2:40pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Big Angry is a great nickname
October 16 at 2:43pm · Like · 7
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Brian Kemple Jolly St. Nick was a Big Angry.
Brian Kemple's photo.
October 16 at 2:43pm · Like · 5
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Aaron Gigliotti Meanwhile, in Los Angeles. From Fr. Fryer, FSSP: BREAKING NEWS! WEEKLY SUNDAY MASS TO BEGIN AT ST. VICTOR'S!! See the post on The Table for details!
October 16 at 2:44pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman This article from Fr. Z reinforces the points I was making above: http://wdtprs.com/.../synod-bishops-revolt-against.../
¡Hagan lío! Synod Bishops revolt against leadership and get their way - Fr. Z's Blog
In full view of the Pope, they rose up pretty much as a...
WDTPRS.COM
October 16 at 2:46pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We need a little of this perhaps! Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies, Pray for us!
Jody Haaf Garneau's photo.
October 16 at 2:46pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman We have some awesome Cardinals in the Vatican
October 16 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau So what you are saying Matthew is all hands to their battle stations. Game on!
October 16 at 2:47pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I say ask some intercession from St. Anthony of Padua, the "Hammer of Heretics". Malleus Heretici? Come on. That's bad ass.
October 16 at 2:49pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Also, St Joseph, protector of the Holy Church, Pray for us!
October 16 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Just a note on this quote from the document: "Are our communities capable of this, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony."
1) I grant that the "homosexual orientation" considered precisely as homosexual is not a good thing.
BUT
2) If what my biologist-friends tell me is right, it looks like there might be some sort of genetic basis for homosexual tendencies (obviously, as material inclination towards such actions that require a choice to actually produce such actions). If that is right, then that genetic basis may actually be an inclination to certain good things that also happens to make the person incline to homosexuality. If that were the case, the document is speaking badly but expresses a good point: the temperament for which homosexuality is attractive is also a temperament that exists for the sake of making other good things attractive and the community should be able to value such a temperament for the good things that it makes easy, even if it also has an unfortunate tendency of disposing people to homosexuality.
October 16 at 2:51pm · Like · 3
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Edward Langley It would be similar to people who get angry easily: the wrathful person is a vicious man; but, if such a temperament is properly controlled, the quick movement of the irascible appetite would make for a superb military leader.
October 16 at 2:52pm · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau Yes, Edward -- that is the already recognized pastoral approach to homosexuals in our communities. And the distinctions matter.
October 16 at 2:53pm · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau http://www.vatican.va/.../rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001...
Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons
1. The issue of homosexuality and the moral evaluation of homosexual acts have increasingly become a matter of public debate, even in Catholic circles. Since this debate often advances arguments and makes assertions inconsistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church, it is quite rightly a cause f…
VATICAN.VA
October 16 at 2:55pm · Like
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Edward Langley Yeah, my point is that many recent Church documents are stated too imprecisely for us to claim that they are simply true or false: oftentimes, their truth or falsity depends on the interpretation one takes of them.
October 16 at 2:57pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley And, on a completely different note, I find this encouraging:
"In the past, this assumption was so pervasive that it was common to read about “physico/chemical” laws and explanations, as if the reduction of chemistry to physics was complete. Although most philosophers of chemistry would accept that there is no conflict between the sciences of chemistry and physics (Needham, 2010b), most philosophers of chemistry think that a stronger conception of unity is mistaken. Most believe that chemistry has not been reduced to physics nor is it likely to be (see Le Poidevin, 2005, for the opposite view, and Hendry and Needham, 2007, for a rejoinder)."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chemistry/#CheRed
October 16 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger BTW Beitia, Burke agrees with you that some of things being discussed should be off the table. His lengthy interview published today is excellent. (He even gives props to families attending TLM. And puts everything in perspective. He is not weakening but growing stronger through this imo.)
October 16 at 3:11pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Our genome is degenerate, so a genetic basis for a condition can only tell us what is, not what ought to be. Genesis tells us "male and female He created them". If we profaned life to create a 3-parented laboratory chimera with both sets of generative organs, I don't doubt that the creature could be saved, and no doubt bring some unique good into the New Jerusalem, but let's not presume to call "chimeraness" good just because God can supernaturally bring forth life from the dead.
October 16 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Burke ordained some priests I know
October 16 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley The question "who sinned, this man or his parents?" is a reasonable one. The disciples know that God is not the cause of blindness.
Jesus does not answer: "neither, blindness actually has some unique side-benefits you guys didn't know about."
He says: "No, it was so that the power of God could be displayed in him." Then he heals the man, he miraculously grants the man eyesight.
This man was allowed to know some high purpose of his disability during his own life. Usually, if some good uniquely follows from some disability we have, we learn of it only in the Resurrection. Even that knowledge, and perfect consolation, will not render good the disability-as-such.
Is there something about disorders of the generative powers such that we should regard them differently?
October 16 at 3:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, isn't that a defect in Church documents? Teaching should be clear.
October 16 at 3:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Joel HF Californians--Matthew J. Peterson, Joshua Kenz, Jehoshaphat Escalante, et al.--thoughts on the "yes means yes" SB 697 law?
October 16 at 4:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Richard Nutley - you should have demurely told that girl to just call you Strider.
October 16 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Jehoshaphat Escalante E.S. Bruenig's essay is well worth a read on this.
October 16 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Link?
October 16 at 4:28pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I'm inclined to be in favor of anything that makes random hookups more risky for the college male, but haven't really got a well-thought out position on the matter. Of course, the rape culture doesn't only exist in colleges, either.
October 16 at 4:34pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Background on the law: http://goo.gl/QIXgXO
Yes means yes: California's new sexual assault law, explained
The state has redefined what it means for college...
VOX.COM
October 16 at 4:39pm · Like
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Richard Nutley When, with her hand resting happily in the crook of your arm, you are walking along the forest road, patiently listening to her discourse against pre-engagement hand-holding, and she pauses and, "Even this," she sighs, leaning in, "is a concession to our weakness."
#amishproblems
October 16 at 4:39pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe This is a fine law. A better one would be, no extramarital sex at all on campuses, but this is something, anyway
October 16 at 5:11pm · Like · 1
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Richard Nutley Caritas sed fortasse Cupiditas! TNET's live call-in dating show, returns tomorrow with:
The Saga of Rose, Episode II
Teaser:
Rose: "If you haven't read it, sometime you might find bittersweet enjoyment in Dostoyevsky's 'White Nights'. Yesterday it almost made me cry, but it was very sweet, too; the reason it made me almost cry was because the story and some of the dialogue was vaguely reminiscent of you and me (what isn't these days? God help me.)."
And! Rose's parents: "Why do we have to meet with him again, if you're going to handle it? Since you decided to contact him again, you tell him what we've decided."
And! a mysterious new character: Father Valentine.
October 16 at 5:17pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As tNET turns...
October 16 at 5:18pm · Like · 3
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Richard Nutley I'm hoping it's more like "tNET Abbey" but we'll see.
October 16 at 5:22pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante--link to the ESB piece?
October 16 at 5:40pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "White Nights" is one of my favorites.
But in the context of the "Rose" saga.....
October 16 at 5:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF A sheltered girl who really meets an outsider for the first time, someone of whom her parents disapprove, she falls in love with him at once, of course ...I dunno, doesn't sound built to last to me.
October 16 at 5:43pm · Like · 2
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Richard Nutley Michael, I haven't read it yet. Going to tonight. Is there a particular translation I should look for? Planning to read Constance Garnett's which is on project Gutenberg. (Don't know if there are others, actually.)
October 16 at 5:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia IDK the one I have is David Magarshack. ask Katie
October 16 at 5:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but... and there's always a butt.... how old are you?
October 16 at 5:56pm · Like · 2
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Katie Duda What are we talking about?
October 16 at 6:27pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Butts
October 16 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I think
October 16 at 6:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict
Isak Benedict's photo.
October 16 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Colleen McAlister Dunkel I finally got to use your meme
October 16 at 6:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I am loving Matthew J. Peterson's comments on the Synod happenings, and part of me agrees with him. A part of me is loving the struggle, loving the chaos. I am reminded of this passage from Walker Percy's Lost in the Cosmos:
"Why is it that no other species but man gets bored? Under the circumstances in which a man gets bored, a dog goes to sleep. Thought Experiment: Imagine that you are a member of a tour visiting Greece. The group goes to the Parthenon. It is a bore. Few people even bother to look - it looked better in the brochure. So people take half a look, mostly take pictures, remark on the serious erosion by acid rain. You are puzzled. Why should one of the glories and fonts of Western civilization, viewed under pleasant conditions - good weather, good hotel room, good food, good guide - be a bore? Now imagine under what set of circumstances a viewing of the Parthenon would not be a bore. For example, you are a NATO colonel defending Greece against a Soviet assault. You are in a bunker in downtown Athens, binoculars propped on sandbags. It is dawn. A medium-range missile attack is under way. Half a million Greeks are dead. Two missiles bracket the Parthenon. The next will surely be a hit. Between columns of smoke, a ray of golden light catches the portico. Are you bored? Can you see the Parthenon?"
October 16 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict "Can you see the Parthenon?" Man that gets me every time.
October 16 at 6:54pm · Like · 1
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Ryan Burke On the other hand, regarding the new CA law:
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/.../liberals-and.../...
Liberals and Affirmative Consent
Some thoughts on Ezra Klein’s fear-based argument for yes-means-yes.
DOUTHAT.BLOGS.NYTIMES.COM
October 16 at 6:57pm · Like · 1
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Ryan Burke I see the value in bending the stick the other way on campus sexual ethics, but get nervous about laws that technically criminalize large swathes of behavior that no one thinks particularly wrong.
October 16 at 6:59pm · Like
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Ryan Burke Proprietorial discretion traditionally veers towards "prosecute them all and let God sort it out" with politically charged issues, so it's at least worth thinking about what over-prosecution would look like here. Especially since initial "prosecuting" will be done by college administrators operating without much in the way of a trial process.
October 16 at 7:02pm · Like
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Lauren Washburn Rogers I'm waiting until this thread hits 40,000 comments before I comment again.
October 16 at 7:22pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia I thought about waiting, but I lack self-control
#poorimpulsecontrolgnosis
October 16 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Eric Paget I wonder what the record is on Facebook for the most comments on a post. Where is Guinness World Records when you need them?
October 16 at 7:50pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it is over 400k, Eric Paget
October 16 at 7:54pm · Like · 1
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Eric Paget boo
October 16 at 7:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia we'll get there.
October 16 at 7:55pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia 37073
#palendromegnosis
October 16 at 7:55pm · Like · 2
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Eric Paget lol. I have not been reading the comments, only checking the total every few days. Are they worth reading?
October 16 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia no.
October 16 at 7:56pm · Like · 4
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Eric Paget ROFL
October 16 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm responsible for roughly 11% of them, and those are all crap
October 16 at 8:00pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict All of my comments, on the other hand, are most enlightening
October 16 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #haikugnosis
October 16 at 8:03pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia affirmative? yes
consent or contract? who knows?
prostitution? yup.
October 16 at 8:06pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I think there is something about recognizing this as "politics" but also something deplorable in that.
Real people are at stake, the salvation of souls. Say that the pope himself essentially abrogates canon 915, no denying of communion. Well such denial, especially with the divorced and now living in adultery group is rare. It will certainly be seen as saying you are welcome to communion, ergo not in mortal sin (as long as your conscience says so)
But canon 916 cannot be revoked. It will still be a mortal sin for them to receive communion, and a good and faithful priest, if asked, would have to tell them that why we won't deny them communion, them receiving it would be a lie. The "gradualism" mentioned here is absurd. Spiritual growth must begin with a renunciation of sin. And while we can and should work with those in sin to get to that point, Holy Communion is the SUMMIT of Christian life. Not the beginning. It presumes, as a pledge of eternal glory, the seed of sanctifying grace, and this does not exist with mortal sin.
Single people are lonely. They may even struggle to be chaste. So if I want a human touch and go to strip clubs, maybe I should feel I can take communion? Is that not the same logic, applied to a different case?
The fact is the law of denying communion, when sin is public (and adulterous fake marriage is by its nature public) is all about the scandal such acts give. We have enough of that scandal, the scandal that says "you should go to communion" when you shouldn't. The Church leaves it on the conscience of the sinner, when the sin is not public. It is when it is public that she denies.
The actions of some bishops are truly, in the real sense, scandal. They lead people to sin. So yes, this was formenting for a while. But what is at stake is a bit more than the petty concerns of temporal politics. This is not denying that the Church has always had such politics. But frankly such was not so broadcasted, no so used toward scandal in Trent or Vatican I, though behind closed doors there were truly scandalous and sometimes hilariously stupid positions argued there.
October 16 at 8:11pm · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia I'm glad you finally got out of bed to argue the same points I've been making all day.
(screw you Peterson)
October 16 at 8:13pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil Joshua Kenz I think this is absolutely the crux of the issue. Well said. We can't grab popcorn and just sit back and enjoy the fascinating debate, while people buy into these falsehoods, go tripping down the proverbial primrose path, and die in a state of sin. The Apostles thought the end of the world was just around the corner, and they had a great sense of urgency. Such sense of urgency has largely been lost, as far as I can tell.
October 16 at 8:22pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict But Catherine...can you see the Parthenon?
October 16 at 8:37pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz BTW, after the Synod Fathers demanded it, forcefully, the relationes circuli minores have been released. The original Relatio was mostly the work of Bruno Forte (Erdo distanced himself), a very controversial figure, and as we know now was not at all a summary of what was discussed at the synod. It was a text prepared in advance, with little relation to what the bishops were actually doing
The Relationes Circuli Minores
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../the-conclusions-of...
Anglicus A (Moderator Burke)
For example, where the Relatio appeared to be suggesting that sex outside of marriage may be permissible, or that cohabitation may be permissible, we have attempted to show why such lifestyles do not lead to human fulfillment. At the same time, we want to acknowledge that there are seeds of truth and goodness found in the persons involved, and through dedicated pastoral care these can be appreciated and developed. We believe that if we imply that certain life-styles are acceptable, then concerned and worried parents could very easily say "Why are we trying so hard to encourage our sons and daughters to live the Gospel and embrace Church teaching?"
We did not recommend the admission to the sacraments of divorced and re-married people, but we included a very positive and much –needed appreciation of union with Christ through other means.
The group recognizes and favors the concern and compassion the Relatio shows for those who face difficult pastoral situations in their lives. However our amendments suggest that we express these carefully so as not to create confusion in the minds and hearts of our people.
Anglicus B (Moderator Napier)
Many in the group felt that a young person reading the Relatio would if anything become even less enthusiastic about undertaking the challenging vocation of Christian matrimony. The Synod Report - and the Message - should direct itself towards young people, to help them understand and be attracted by the Christian vision of marriage and the family, in a world in which they are exposed to many contradictory visions.
It was felt that in the current situation of widespread cultural confusion about marriage and the family and the human suffering that this can bring, there is an urgent need for leadership in today's world and that such clear leadership can only come from the Church. Such leadership is an urgent part of the Church's service to contemporary society and a failure to give such witness would be to fail humanity....
On the subject of the admission of the divorced and remarried to the Eucharist the group stressed two principles flowing directly from God's Word:
the clear affirmation of the indissolubility of a valid sacramental union, while humbly admitting that we need a more credible way of presenting and witnessing to that teaching;
the strong desire to invite and embrace sincere Catholics who feel alienated from the family of the Church because of irregular situations.
...
The group expressed concern about an over emphasis on the term "positive elements" when speaking of civil marriage and cohabitation. ....
Anglicus C (Kurtz)
In expressing such sentiments we may inadvertently convey the impression that marriage is not important, or that it is an ideal that only a few select people can achieve. It is possible that some may even have the impression that all unions are equal. For this reason, we felt it necessary to carefully define the meaning of the law of gradualness, which should not be understood as gradualness of the law. Gradualness should not make insipid the challenge of the Gospel to conversion, to "go and sin no more", as Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery.
Gallicus A (Sarah) They suggested a whole re-writing of the Relatio. Aside from a new Christocentrism they are clear about Communion as well
Sur le rapport entre les divorcés remariés et les sacrements de la Réconciliation et de l’Eucharistie, notre texte dit qu’il importe de "ne pas changer la doctrine de l’Eglise sur l’indissolubilité du mariage et la non-admission des divorcés remariés aux sacrements de la Réconciliation et de l’Eucharistie mais d’appliquer cette doctrine constante de l’Eglise aux situations diverses et douloureuses de notre époque avec un regard renouvelé de compassion et de miséricorde sur les personnes".
I could go on, the the Relatio clearly has no relation to the actual Synod. Virtually every commission (I only read the 3 English, 2 French and 3 Italian reports) say the same things, and they all affirm against Kasper the traditional doctrine and discipline with regard to Communion
The bishops are not that divided. It is a minority causing problems.
RORATE CÆLI: The conclusions of the Synod's small groups.
RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM
October 16 at 8:40pm · Like · 10
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Joel HF Good news.
October 16 at 8:52pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill Most definitely.
Jeff Neill's photo.
October 16 at 9:46pm · Like
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Jeff Neill (Twin Peaks is on Netflix!! I'm glad to see stories like this coming back)
October 16 at 11:13pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz I think I should voice also the emotion and confusion which was provoked by the spread of a document that we considered as a simple- though very useful - working document, and thus provisional. What we experienced, namely a counter-productive aspect of this distribution, seems to us to require, with care, an evaluation of the causes and consequences of an event, which sowing confusions and questions, did not aide the reflection.
....
Finally, we have found in our work the importance of genuine vigilance and rigor in the words we use – as with the terms “couple, “marriage”, “individual” or “person.”
(translating Gallicus A now...it is very good and should be translated ;))
October 17 at 2:46am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz The French have a modest view of the success of the Synod
"We do not think that an ad hoc committee is appropriate; we think that it is important that the questions be addressed in all their magnitude and that the various conferences of bishops be involved in this reflection."
Also, maybe a certain (unnamed) swipe at the UN and others over say how they dictate to Africa
"In this regard, we thought it important to identify the positive elements of familial situations- the values, the gifts which we witness, which build rather than destroy … that is everything that stimulates the Church in its duty to express a statement of truth and of hope for our contemporaries and of challnge to certain international organizations who bind their aid to the acceptance of their own conception of man, marriage and society."
http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/.../relatione...
October 17 at 7:09am · Like
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Michael Beitia that's getting closer...
October 17 at 8:18am · Like
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Michael Beitia is everyone busy this morning?
October 17 at 10:16am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am at 'work' today Michael Beitia.
October 17 at 10:34am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I'll come back if you say you missed me.
October 17 at 10:34am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I'm planning Caleb's birthday party.
October 17 at 10:45am · Like · 3
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Joel HF Everyone on tNET's invited, right?
October 17 at 10:50am · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe Everyone I like. You know who you are.
October 17 at 10:51am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson tNET flash mobs invading out personal lives...
October 17 at 10:52am · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson But - wait - that's kind of like....what's happened already.
October 17 at 10:53am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^ my #2 favorite tNET trend-- Matthew J. Peterson whining about tNET ruining his life.
October 17 at 10:53am · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Go on, Matthew.
October 17 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm at "work" M-F Daniel. that never stops me.
October 17 at 11:06am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but tNET is ruining my "work" ethic. *sobs*
October 17 at 11:10am · Like
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Joel HF But, Beitia, Arbeit macht frei!
October 17 at 11:12am · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Joel, Arbeit macht mir übel
October 17 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Joel HF Arbeit macht mir gelangweilt.
October 17 at 11:21am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Nein.
October 17 at 11:21am · Like
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Joel HF I have no idea if my pigeon German was even accurate there.
October 17 at 11:22am · Like
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Joel HF Mir ist langweilig auf Arbeit.. ?
October 17 at 11:23am · Like
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Isak Benedict I can't speak German at all.
October 17 at 11:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Ich kann Deutsch sprechen uberhaupt.
October 17 at 11:23am · Like
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Joel HF http://goo.gl/w2iZBk
Die Ärzte - Mir ist langweilig
mir war halt langweilig xD
YOUTUBE.COM
October 17 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Joel HF #Deutschpunkgnosis
October 17 at 11:25am · Edited · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Apropos of nothing at all: "What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you – where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut them down – and you're just the man to do it – do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"
October 17 at 11:27am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict I think "Apropos of Nothing At All" should be the title of TNET's biography.
October 17 at 11:28am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict Or would that be autobiography?
October 17 at 11:28am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I am TNET.
October 17 at 11:38am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I am become TNET...
October 17 at 11:45am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECpu6M0nMQ8
#alsohasGermanpunkgnosis
Wizo Raum der Zeit
YOUTUBE.COM
October 17 at 11:46am · Like
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Michael Beitia I have become tNET, destroyer of productivity!
October 17 at 11:54am · Like · 3
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Adrw Lng Today’s world appears to promote limitless affectivity, seeking to explore all its aspects, including the most complex. Indeed, the question of emotional fragility is very current: a narcissistic, unstable or changeable affectivity do [sic] not always help greater maturity to be reached.
October 17 at 12:02pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Relatio incenda est.
October 17 at 12:11pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm still not sure that Adrw isn't being a bot again. That quote doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
October 17 at 12:12pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Direct quote from the Relatio. Good morning TNET!
October 17 at 12:13pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger It can't make sense . . . .even in Italian.
October 17 at 12:15pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I hate the circuitous language that doesn't always help to a achieve a greater clarity.
October 17 at 12:18pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Richard Mitchell called it "father tongue."
October 17 at 12:19pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The Underground Grammarian. If you haven't perused that wealth of verbal delights, do so.
October 17 at 12:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia It reads like an NFL announcer.
October 17 at 12:19pm · Like
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Adrw Lng "bafflegab"
October 17 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Read everything on this webpage. http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/
The Underground Grammarian - Richard Mitchell
SOURCETEXT.COM
October 17 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Minotaur perfume box at the Getty Villa.
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 17 at 12:20pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Branding. It's all about branding.
October 17 at 12:20pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict I want.
October 17 at 12:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Tile - boxers, Ancient Greece. Curiously reminds me of the 400 dorm.
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 17 at 12:21pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson That Minotaur is clearly a kinder, gentler Minotaur.
October 17 at 12:21pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "A cleansing fire leaps from the writings of Richard Mitchell." ~ George F. Will
October 17 at 12:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "There exists in every age, in every society, a small, still choir of reason emanating from a few scattered thinkers ignored by the mainstream. Their collective voices, when duly discovered a century or so too late, reveal what was wrong with that society and age, and how it could have been corrected if only people had listened and acted accordingly. Richard Mitchell's is such a voice. It could help make a better life for you or, if it is too late for that, at least for your children. Ignore it at your and their peril." ~ John Simon
October 17 at 12:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "The Underground Grammarian does not advocate violence; it advocates ridicule. Abusers of English are often pompous, and ridicule hurts them more than violence. In every edition we will bring you practical advice for ridiculing abusers of English.
This month's target is any barbarian who says advisement. We can advise, or give advice, or even do some advising. Advisement permits nothing beyond what we can already mean with the words we have. Perhaps, by analogy to confinement, it might name a condition in which we suffer the consequence of having been advised; or, like government, it might indicate some cloud of loosely related abstractions and institutions. Those who say it to us must simply mean advising, but they fear that a clear naming of what they do will reveal how little it needs doing, and they will find themselves in the streets selling wind-up toys. Such people feel degraded unless what they do ends with -ment or some other official sound such as -ation or -ivity. Work that ends with -ing makes them nervous.
Do not boo and stamp your feet when some barbarian says advisement; it will bring reprisal, for barbarians are vindictive. Simply mutter, just loud enough to be heard, "Clickety-click-click." This requires no lip movement and suggests a wind-up toy. With a female barbarian, an equally good response is "Ding-dong," familiar to all television-addicted barbarians and suggesting some more appropriate career in cosmetics.
When advisement appears in a document sent by campus mail, smear it with something foul and return it to the sender."
~ The Underground Grammarian Volume One, Number One, January 1977
October 17 at 12:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict
Isak Benedict's photo.
October 17 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Let's ridicule some corporate-speak.
October 17 at 12:37pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think that's a sustainable best practice.
October 17 at 12:40pm · Edited · Like · 7
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Matthew J. Peterson But maybe if you are engaged in disruption it's OK.
October 17 at 12:42pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict But real-world problem solving is a chance to make new learning modalities operational, especially if the bottom line is a flex-actionable enriched-virtual model like TNET.
October 17 at 12:46pm · Like · 4
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Adrw Lng TNET tiger teams core competency of troll ecosystems to synergize and leverage new solutions on the bleeding edge of vertical, robust thread growth
October 17 at 12:50pm · Like · 7
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Oleg Kostoglotov But will it play in Peoria?
October 17 at 12:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Will tNET scale easily?
October 17 at 1:01pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson This is actually corporate speak worth reading from one of the top companies in existence right now:
http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664
Culture
Netflix Culture: Freedom & Responsibility 1
SLIDESHARE.NET
October 17 at 1:18pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "As a leader, no one in your group should be materially surprised of your views"
October 17 at 1:22pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson For good and ill, it is worth reading.
October 17 at 1:23pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I'll grant you the greater inherent worth of the thoughts expressed in that presentation than in what is normal - but to say it simply, I still don't like the way he talks.
October 17 at 1:23pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it is very obviously bullshit of the stankiest kind, quite aside from the unintelligible passage I quoted
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But I really appreciate the acknowledgement that "excellence" is just the new name for mediocrity, or worse.
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF "Values are what we value"
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict It's not of the stankiest kind. But it's rankly expressed.
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like
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Joel HF When I hear the word Value, that's when I reach for my revolver!
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think it is bullshit. It's a Type A paradise.
October 17 at 1:24pm · Like
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Joel HF W/ apologies to Herr Goering and "Mission of Burma"
October 17 at 1:32pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^^ which is bullshit
October 17 at 1:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict When I am king, the Type As will be the first with their backs to the wall.
October 17 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I keed, I keed
October 17 at 1:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They are all about the common good of netflix.
October 17 at 1:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict You guys have all read George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language," right?
October 17 at 1:26pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I think they are pretty successful at attaining the common good of netflix.
October 17 at 1:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course.
October 17 at 1:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson There might be other common goods...
October 17 at 1:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia oh heavens I just made it to slide 15 and I threw up in my mouth.... claptrap
October 17 at 1:26pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson If you read through you will get a sense at how a top company works in this day and age.
October 17 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Know your enemy.
October 17 at 1:28pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson And also a sense of the sort of people graduating from our top schools.
October 17 at 1:28pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Who are capable of everything the slide reveals it wants in an employee.
October 17 at 1:29pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Although netflix doesn't hire interns or people just out of college
October 17 at 1:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia slide 40:
Responsible people
thrive on freedom
and are worthy of freedom
October 17 at 1:31pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia did Ayn write that for them?
October 17 at 1:31pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF What worth freedom?
October 17 at 1:31pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "our colleagues are stunning, but our movie selection isn't"
October 17 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Via Chris Kieser:
http://www.barstoolsports.com/.../stanford-sends.../...
Stanford Sends Recruits A List Of How Much Money Stanford Grads Make |...
BARSTOOLSPORTS.COM
October 17 at 1:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it's all clap-trap. twaddle. BS. but I wouldn't mind a top-tier paycheck...... is tNET lessening my chances of selling my soul to male white corporate America?
October 17 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Michael Horton "Highly aligned, loosely coupled" Well there's the rub, isn't it? Reminds me of Herbert Marcuse on tolerance...
October 17 at 1:40pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it means "fixated on profit, totally mercenary"
October 17 at 1:41pm · Like · 5
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Adrw Lng Slide 16: "Honesty" means "you are non-political when you disagree with others" ...Interesting how politics has become a dirty word
October 17 at 1:44pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson If you had a job there, you'd have to say goodbye to daily tNETing.
October 17 at 1:47pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng TNET is full of Stunning Colleagues
October 17 at 1:54pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia no I wouldn't. They don't "track" that sort of thing. As long as I was productive.... shit
October 17 at 1:59pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson I think we need our own PPT
October 17 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple TNEPPT
October 17 at 2:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I assume you mean "power point"?
October 17 at 2:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia if I make a tNET PPT, can I monetize it?
October 17 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Only with the permission of the Elder Gods
October 17 at 3:23pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Cthulhu?
October 17 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia
Michael Beitia's photo.
October 17 at 3:29pm · Like · 5
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Katherine Gardner Apropos of (almost) nothing... (I think this relates to something or other Isak was going on about above) this: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language," 1946
Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent and our language -- so the argument runs -- must inevitably share in the general coll…
MTHOLYOKE.EDU
October 17 at 3:43pm · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner Oh my gosh.... I actually did not see that he referred to this exact essay. I wonder if I should admit that now. This is what comes of 5 second skims of vast swaths of tNet posts.
October 17 at 3:45pm · Like · 3
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Katherine Gardner Actually, I think my first comment reads better if you assume I did know.
October 17 at 3:46pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Agreed, and agreed
October 17 at 3:55pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil So, I just read through what happened on tNET today, and my highly scientific analysis shows that tNET slows down significantly without Samantha and Big Angry Daniel Lendman.
October 17 at 8:39pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil (Which is to say, tNET's blood will be on your hands.)
October 17 at 8:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Haha, just like seminar, right Big Angry Lendman?
October 17 at 8:44pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Anyway, I said I would come back, but no one would admit they missed me.
October 17 at 8:44pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I missed you - makes me feel better if you are active. More confident about what the record will show - less apprehensive about the silent, judging lurkers.
October 17 at 8:46pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson How many of you reading this are lurkers? OUT YOURSELVES.
October 17 at 8:46pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil The De-Lurking better bring some new topics, because I think we have exhausted the Synod, for now.
October 17 at 8:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Aw shucks. Finally the fishing for compliments pays off. Thanks, Matthew.
October 17 at 8:56pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I SEE YOU
October 17 at 8:57pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson tNET SEES YOU
October 17 at 8:57pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe De-lurk. We won't bite... very hard.
October 17 at 9:00pm · Unlike · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Oh come on, Samantha Cohoe. Unless they just started lurking in the last twenty minutes, they know that we'll be all over them like ants on a popsicle the second they put a foot wrong.
October 17 at 9:01pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil (Mixed metaphors, anyone?)
October 17 at 9:01pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Ok, how about this-- has anyone read any of these (other than Lila)?http://www.npr.org/.../get-to-know-the-finalists-for-the...
NPR Exclusive: See The Finalists For The 2014 National Book Award
The shortlists — for fiction, nonfiction, poetry and...
NPR.ORG
October 17 at 9:03pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov What constitutes being a lurker, I speak up sometimes but I remain respectfully afraid just like I was of the smokers patio people back in the day.
October 17 at 9:03pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe WHAT'S YOUR REAL NAME THIS IS STARTING TO BOTHER ME
October 17 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Patrick?
October 17 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov from what I have seen on tNet everything seems to bother you
October 17 at 9:05pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil I read a large excerpt of "Can We Talk About Something More Pleasant" that ran in The New Yorker. It's a comic about taking care of aging parents. It was bleak, but funny and pretty accurate. (At least, from what I can tell from my parents taking care of my grandparents.)
October 17 at 9:07pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What happened to your respectful fear, (Patrick?)?
October 17 at 9:06pm · Like
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Max Summe I had something I meant to say to tNET earlier and now I forgot. Don't you hate it when that happens?
October 17 at 9:06pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe My parents are about three years away from that point and I can't face up to reality, so that one's not for me.
October 17 at 9:07pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Too bleak. Have any of y'all seen "The Savages" though? With the late great Philip Seymour Hoffman?
October 17 at 9:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yes. It was actually not bleak enough, because the father died conveniently quickly.
October 17 at 9:09pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov I had the respectful fear on campus, but I would go to the rocks with the same people. Selective fear is banish-able when there is fun involved. But back to the topic of lurkers are you only calling out the true lurker (no comments or < 5) or the sometime commenters who recoil in awe at falcons and kenzez?
October 17 at 9:09pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Yeah, my dad read it while browsing through my copy of the New Yorker and I think it upset him a lot. I was focused more on the "Wow, she really has an incredible ability to capture this situation," without allowing myself to be super depressed by it.
October 17 at 9:10pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Yeah, old people never go at a convenient time in real life. (Sorry! I know that's a horrible thing to say! But it's true.)
October 17 at 9:11pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe It's very true.
October 17 at 9:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Patrick(?)-- I'm calling all lurkers, semi to true.
October 17 at 9:12pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov crickets...............................
October 17 at 9:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I've wondered about the ratio of lurkers to word-vomiters myself. Occasionally, I see a "like" from someone who never posts. I know they're out there, like the Old gods, silently watching, judging....
October 17 at 9:45pm · Unlike · 7
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John Ruplinger . . . . speak for your own vomitous mass of gnosis.
October 17 at 9:50pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia oh I do, John, I do
October 17 at 9:51pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I lurk and post in alternating turns. My initial intent was to lurk for all time, but I have a disease that compels me to argue about things in the most time-consuming, procrastinating way possible.
October 17 at 9:53pm · Unlike · 5
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Michael Beitia at least you've come to "know thyself". it would probably be a step in the right direction - oh tNET where is thy sting?
October 17 at 9:55pm · Like
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Monica Murphy I post sometimes! 97% lurker and liker, 3% poster.
October 17 at 10:03pm · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy For example, I believe I coined the phrase "lurker and liker."
October 17 at 10:03pm · Like · 2
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Monica Murphy Also, Adrw Lng has been making nonsense of sentences for years now. I was flipping through my Aristotle the other day (you know how that is) and found this gem I recorded from freshman philosophy: "Luck is the luck chance luck fair enough chance luck spontaneity." Glad to see the habit has persisted into tNET.
October 17 at 10:08pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland I'm lurking.
October 17 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Meh: semi lurkers post. There are real ghost lurkers who do not. None of you are real lurkers.
October 17 at 10:16pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland haha!
October 17 at 10:16pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Oh dear, only about 15 posts per hour. Must do something about this...
October 17 at 10:17pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Except TNET can take care of itself very well, as I've come to know.
October 17 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia you're right Peterson . . . somewhere out there, in the Lovecraftian void, there are those..... silent nameless lurkers...
October 17 at 10:19pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Ryland In a pinch, we could argue about whether it should be tNET or TNET. I still maintain TNET, since just as in a book title the first 'The' may be capitalized. Even more so TNET, which is far TNETtier than any book.
October 17 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland I'm still astonished that Edward goes around counting up all those likes and calculating like-ratios (kidding).
October 17 at 10:22pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I'm totally going to out people who like my posts (you know who you are)
October 17 at 10:22pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov tNET has an Apple-esque look about it, and thus it is more cool.
October 17 at 10:23pm · Unlike · 3
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Catherine Ryland like iNET
October 17 at 10:23pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Catherine Ryland hmmm.
October 17 at 10:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^no
October 17 at 10:23pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland yes, I was thinking no too.
October 17 at 10:23pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland but just for the sake of argument.
October 17 at 10:24pm · Like
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Brian Kemple TNET makes me think of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, TMNT, pre-Michael Bay ruining, and therefore fondly of my childhood.
October 17 at 10:25pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia it is weird.. tNET may be the least judgmental portion of facebook, but at the same time the most likely to attack like sharks with blood in the water.... it is a weird synthesis of antithesis...
#hegelgnosis
October 17 at 10:26pm · Edited · Unlike · 6
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Catherine Ryland #sharkgnosis
October 17 at 10:26pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger tNET languishes. We need a tNET synod, not to redefine tNET but to be more welcoming to lurkers, more accepting of their gifts. (Anyone want to be a tNET ostiarius or greeter?)
October 17 at 10:59pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger "on accepting and valuing trolls". Discuss.
October 17 at 11:00pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I accept and value trolls.
October 17 at 11:00pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Ryland tNET/TNET would not be tNET/TNET without trolls.
October 17 at 11:03pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland Case in point. Our local friendly trolls are conspicuously absent. How many comments per hour are accreting?
October 17 at 11:04pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson This is the best: https://www.facebook.com/matthewjpeterson/posts/10152738283406508
October 17 at 11:07pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Brian Kemple: " We're not saying "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" anymore. From now on they're "Teenage Different Feudal-Japanese Turtles."
https://twitter.com/LosFelizDay.../status/492072691470700544
Los Feliz Day Care on Twitter: "We're not saying "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" anymore. From...
We're not saying "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" anymore. From now on they're "Teenage Different Feudal-Japanese Turtles."
TWITTER.COM|BY LOS FELIZ DAY CARE
October 17 at 11:09pm · Like · 6
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Catherine Ryland If you ever have the chance to watch The Pacifier, don't do it.
October 17 at 11:24pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Worst movie ever.
October 17 at 11:28pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Fortunately I am only sitting through a few minutes of it, with a practically silent TnEt to keep me company.
October 17 at 11:29pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland No one is going to challenge my 'worst movie ever' assessment?
October 17 at 11:32pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland You guys are a bunch of arrogant fools who think that liberal arts are higher than theology.
October 17 at 11:51pm · Unlike · 5
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Catherine Ryland Fashion and religion are two ways in which people show that they are willing to do anything, including waste their entire lives, just for the sake of conformity.
October 17 at 11:55pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I've never seen the Pacifier, so I can't speak to that. Crash (1996 version) is the worst film I've ever seen, period
October 17 at 11:56pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (Don't ask how serious I am on that last one.)
October 17 at 11:57pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia how serious are you on that last one?
October 17 at 11:57pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Serious.
October 17 at 11:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia like "super-cereal" serious, or "heart attack" serious
October 17 at 11:57pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Also, please don't waste any minutes of your life on that frightful time-sink of a movie. I will do my best not to see Crash.
October 17 at 11:57pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland (Looks it up on IMDb -- or is it iMdB?)
October 17 at 11:58pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Like Partridge Bottarga serious.
October 17 at 11:58pm · Like
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Michael Beitia the IMBD starts off with the word "omnisexuals" for Crash. two of the four people we went to see it with walked out. awful and inappropriate
October 17 at 11:59pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Looks terrible. Not likely to watch it. Ever.
October 18 at 12:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia not sure how I got conned into seeing it.
October 18 at 12:01am · Like
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Michael Beitia laughed my ass off at the absurd plot and got booed by the "fans" in the theater, though
October 18 at 12:02am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The Pacifier, although I have not seen it, is not the worst movie ever. The Chipmunks: Chipwrecked is the worst movie ever. #truth.
October 18 at 12:03am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia haven't seen that one either. I feel like I'm missing out on the awful
October 18 at 12:04am · Like
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Catherine Ryland #chipmunkgnosis which looks a lot like chipmunkenosis
October 18 at 12:04am · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Dude. I saw it in the theater. It was insane
October 18 at 12:04am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson " Nola is having mock-home-birth for her dolly today! We're so proud of her for signing the pledge to have a #homebirth when she grows up. "
https://twitter.com/LosFelizDay.../status/431899107586609155
Los Feliz Day Care on Twitter: "Nola is having mock-home-birth for her dolly today! We're so...
Nola is having mock-home-birth for her dolly today! We're so proud of her for signing the pledge to have a #homebirth when she grows up.
TWITTER.COM|BY LOS FELIZ DAY CARE
October 18 at 12:05am · Edited · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Mr. Peabody and Sherman was up there. It had a Monica Lewinsky joke which really raises (lowers) the bar for bad movies.
October 18 at 12:05am · Like
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Michael Beitia the only movies I've seen with my kids in the theater were Toy Story 3 and the Lego Movie
October 18 at 12:05am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland More therapy here: I tried to watch lOtR for five minutes and got phenomenally bored. I would put the 5 minutes that I saw on my worst movie list.
October 18 at 12:05am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti Toy Story 3 is the best movie of the aughts.
October 18 at 12:05am · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti I loved it
October 18 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Wow, your children are so progressive, Matt! (kidding)
October 18 at 12:06am · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Effing tNET.
October 18 at 12:06am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson " More problems. Alden said Van's parents' marriage doesn't count because it was a Burning Man wedding, and that sent Van into another episode "
https://twitter.com/LosFelizDay.../status/509808690988195841
Los Feliz Day Care on Twitter: "More problems. Alden said Van's parents' marriage doesn't count...
More problems. Alden said Van's parents' marriage doesn't count because it was a Burning Man wedding, and that sent Van into another episode
TWITTER.COM|BY LOS FELIZ DAY CARE
October 18 at 12:06am · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland BURNING MAN!!!
October 18 at 12:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson URGENT: Still need doctor forms re: anti-seizure meds BEFORE Friday's screening of "Koyaanisqatsi"
https://twitter.com/LosFelizDay.../status/416972975456669696
Los Feliz Day Care on Twitter: "URGENT: Still need doctor forms re: anti-seizure meds BEFORE...
When you tweet with a location, Twitter stores that location. You can switch location on/off before each Tweet and always have the option to delete your location history. Learn more
TWITTER.COM|BY LOS FELIZ DAY CARE
October 18 at 12:07am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson BWHAHAHA
October 18 at 12:07am · Like
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Michael Beitia Peterson:
#calikidproblemgnosis
October 18 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Los Feliz Day Care @LosFelizDayCare · Jun 21
Who is bringing the grilled halloumi skewers to the solstice party? Gia's dads dropped out
https://twitter.com/LosFelizDay.../status/480471605139632128
Los Feliz Day Care on Twitter: "Who is bringing the grilled halloumi skewers to the solstice...
When you tweet with a location, Twitter stores that location. You can switch location on/off before each Tweet and always have the option to delete your location history. Learn more
TWITTER.COM|BY LOS FELIZ DAY CARE
October 18 at 1:19am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia slain by twitter
October 18 at 9:42am · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund Someone just posted this on my wall: http://youtu.be/wf23cc7hQM4 It would be funny if it wasn't so painful to see a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church talking such arrant nonsense.
Reading Kasper through Westheimer - the Hermeneutic of Ruth
Reading Kasper through Westheimer - the...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 9:51am · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia didn't someone say something about letting your yeas be yeas and your nays be nays? Why all this fluff and couched language?
October 18 at 11:05am · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Michael Beitia can you imagine the politicking, smoke-blowing, and all around BS it takes to become a Cardinal? These dudes are highly accomplished politicians, first and foremost. Even the ones I like.
October 18 at 11:08am · Like · 7
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Michael Beitia yes, but when they talk like the example above, I want to scream in their faces. : "bullshit!"
let's face it, the woman at the well pretty clearly supports the oh-so-offensive permanent adultery theory, right? and all the smoke-blowing double speak in the world isn't going to change that.
October 18 at 11:10am · Like · 4
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Joel HF Cardinal Dolan jumped on the anti-Kasperites bandwagon, which is a good sign because Dolan always wants to courageously cast his lot with the winning side, once he's reasonably sure of victory, of course.
October 18 at 2:06pm · Edited · Like · 6
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Joel HF Dolan knows which way the wind blows, and will courageously follow along.
October 18 at 11:12am · Like · 8
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Aaron Gigliotti Here is a key question that you have to ask about so many priests, bishops, and cardinals who have a life out in public. Do these guys really even care about the theological integrity of the Church? In other words, are they arguing in good faith? I think the answer is usually no. And yeah, don't get me started on Dolan. He is like a movie version of a glib, glad-handing prelate.
October 18 at 11:15am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia gah. talking about "Church politics" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But taking the historical "long view" approach shows me clearly how much better all the prelates of the Church have gotten. After no Saints between Pius V and Pius X, all the popes are now saints!
October 18 at 11:16am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti Effing Samaritans. Nothing changes.
October 18 at 11:16am · Like
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Michael Beitia someone once asked the priest that married me why he wasn't going to become a bishop. His answer was "I didn't choose that career path"
October 18 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Joel HF Nolo episcopari is more honored in the breach I think.
October 18 at 11:20am · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti The holiest priests I know are totally overlooked and slogging it out in tiny parishes and communities with no one to see their good works.
October 18 at 11:20am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson People are people. Thus it ever was. Amp all this up exponentially and throw in the power of billionaire families who rule nations and you get the Middle Ages, when the Church functioned much as the government does now: one of the if not THE largest employer/bureaucracy in Europe.
October 18 at 11:22am · Edited · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson The likes of the new fangled radical order of the Dominicans preaching outside the cathedrals and angering the diocesan hierarchy and their modernist scholar speaking about pagan Aristotle aside.
October 18 at 11:24am · Like
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Michael Beitia 27 Benjamin a ravenous wolf, in the morning shall eat the prey, and in the evening shall divide the spoil.
October 18 at 11:24am · Like
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Michael Beitia unfortunately, Peterson, we have this thing called "instant access to everything" now. So the heretics with red hats can scandalize everyone.....
October 18 at 11:25am · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti And thus, Matthew J. Peterson, saints imprisoned in the dungeons of monasteries and burned at the stake by bishops. I guess it could be a lot worse.
October 18 at 11:25am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. It could be. We still need reform movements, of course. The chief bureaucrat model seems to lead away from anything meaningful or the one thing needful - and a rolling over and ceding of meaningful things.
But so the world turns.
October 18 at 11:30am · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Having said all that, Walter Kasper is a total maroon.
October 18 at 11:31am · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Generally I favor anything that promotes debate and sharpens the picture. The abuse scandals have been good for that, even if many should still be in jail. But it's helped.
October 18 at 11:32am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What I find a bit ironic is the way in which trads act as if they are the ones who discovered and opposed Kasper all these years.
When, in fact, those "neoCaths" have been on the frontlines for years re this stuff. As was JPII.
Which is why Kasper is a distinct minority and the idea that even this one little synod is going to officially say anything contravening long held principles is a complete and utter crock.
October 18 at 11:37am · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Trads were supporting Kasper previously?
October 18 at 12:43pm · Like
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Joel HF JPII made Kasper a cardinal, for heaven's sake
October 18 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Aaron Gigliotti JP2 also made roger frekin' mahony a cardinal.
October 18 at 12:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And he also was the only thing between you all and VII at its worst overtaking all.
October 18 at 12:47pm · Like
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Joel HF But JPII did oppose this nonsense, of course. That's why it is kinda absurd that it is coming back up again.
October 18 at 1:25pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As were all those "neoCath" leaders everyone wants to rip on nowadays because it's so very easy.
October 18 at 12:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson This is a bit batty but also interesting:
http://www.brainpickings.org/.../brian-eno-reading-list/...
Brian Eno’s Reading List: 20 Essential Books for Sustaining Civilization
Deconstructing a magnificent mind through his reading...
BRAINPICKINGS.ORG
October 18 at 12:50pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.eyeofthetiber.com/.../second-synod-to-focus.../
Second Synod To Focus On Learning Fundamentals Of Catholic Doctrine | Eye...
EYEOFTHETIBER.COM
October 18 at 12:53pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia "everyone want to rip on"?
Dude, you're the one with the trad/neocath thang going on. Know your audience. "You all and VII"? so you're cool with the worst of VII? Or is that only the blacklisted "us"?
Rite aside, there is only one division: orthodox and heterodox. Kasper is the latter. That wasn't so hard, was it? I didn't even ask you if you practice how high to raise your hand when leading the responsorial....
October 18 at 1:25pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Huh. I've read exactly one book on Eno's list.
October 18 at 1:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No, wait-- two. I read that peter the great book back in my youth
October 18 at 1:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson One thing's for sure: the days of westerners running things in the Church are almost over. There is an enormous problem of representation that will get worse, as Europe has a massively disproportionate number of Cardinals given the actual population of Catholics, while other areas across the globe experiencing growth are grossly underrepresented. And given what a shoddy job the west has made of things, they/we don't really have a qualitative leg to stand on either.
October 18 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I checked out History of the World in 100 Objects one time. It stared at me reproachfully from my bedside table for three weeks while I ignored it in favor of novels.
October 18 at 1:32pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple Heh. Rorty. Brian Eno you so cray.
October 18 at 1:39pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Eno is not someone I look to for guidance in any respect. Heh. The question in such cases is always whether they actually made the list themselves or had some help. But it was just interesting enough to make me think he might have made the list himself.
October 18 at 1:41pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple My guess is he picked books at random off his shelf which he has there to make it look like he's the sort of thoughtful individual who reads books.
October 18 at 1:43pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Does anyone else think about the Emperor in Return of the Jedi EVERY time people ask you to reach out your hands towards someone in prayer?
October 18 at 1:43pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Brian Kemple: yah, that's a distinct possibility.
October 18 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple How often are you asked to reach your hands towards someone in prayer?
October 18 at 1:43pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Reach out hands? Must be something you OFers do
October 18 at 1:55pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM
Star Wars ROTJ emperor's death scene
I love this scene. It gives me chills when I watch it.
YOUTUBE.COM
October 18 at 1:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson You will pay the price for your lack of gradualism...
October 18 at 2:00pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil I've noticed that a lot of people of my parents' generation have a copy of "The Discoverers" on their shelf. I think it was a pretty popular book in the early 80s and my impression was that it had kind of fallen out of fashion (rather than being considered a classic).
October 18 at 2:08pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil The article says, "The majority of Eno’s favorite books were published in the 1970s and 1980s, when he was in his mid-twenties to late thirties — indication, perhaps, that this is the golden age within a lifetime, when we have transcended the know-it-all arrogance of youth, haven’t yet entered the know-it-old complacency of old age, and live with that wondrous combination of receptivity to new ideas and just enough not-yet-calcified intellectual foundation with which to integrate and contextualize them." Huh? Or maybe he's just myopic.
October 18 at 2:09pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Also, I fail to see how "The Illustrated Flora of Britain and Northern Europe" could be on anyone's list of the top 20 books for sustaining or rebuilding civilization. He's just trying to seem like he has incredibly diverse interests.
October 18 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Finally, because I love to nitpick, the Peter the Great book is not by RIchard Massie, it's by Robert K. Massie.
October 18 at 2:12pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah - the list is interesting regardless of whether he or someone else put it together sincerely or with an audience in mind, etc., because of what it tells us culturally. Many of these have fallen out of favor or been somewhat forgotten, and I am now curious about them.
Although I don't think Boorstin is all that bad - a bit boring and timebound in places, and I think the Mother of Divine Grace People could do better in places in suggesting him a bit - but you could do far worse, historian-wise.
October 18 at 2:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I agree. Boorstein has a couple of good books - though not classics
October 18 at 2:17pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Well, I always enjoy lists like that, even when (as in this case) they're overly self-conscious. I think the first thing that comes to mind when looking at his list, though, is that while he might be a bright guy and like to read (for all I know), he's basically just a dilettante who lacks any kind of intellectual foundation.
October 18 at 2:22pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil I mean, this isn't just "the first twenty books that occurred to me," or "twenty books i have on my shelf," or "twenty books i bought in the eighties".
October 18 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I agree that this list would be a lot less obnoxious if it wasn't supposed to the books that will save civilization, or whatever.
October 18 at 2:26pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. But we're not really interested in hearing from Brian Eno about saving civilization.
October 18 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Word to the wise, y'all, never get between Catherine Joliat Feil and a nit when she's gone picking.
October 18 at 2:28pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia we're not? Brian Eno has special gifts to offer the Church and should be valued for being Brian Eno....
October 18 at 2:28pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson And those gifts have nothing to do with saving civilization...
October 18 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha: Sigh. So true. Really endeared me to my teachers in grade school.
October 18 at 2:29pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson From Wikipedia:
Brian Eno refers to himself as an "Evangelical Atheist".[51]
In 1996, Eno and others started the Long Now Foundation to educate the public about the very long-term future of society.[52]
October 18 at 2:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Let's all do our most pompous "10 Essential Books for Saving Civilization" lists. Matthew J. Peterson, you go first. Don't pretend you don't have one ready to go.
October 18 at 2:33pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Would this be like, in addition to the TAC Syllabus?
October 18 at 2:33pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Otherwise there would we waaaay too much overlap for these lists to be interesting.
October 18 at 2:33pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson He's your typical western elite aesthete, and a bit better educated than many because of his age and nationality.
October 18 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And that is his list.
October 18 at 2:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia there better be "plumbing for dummies" on the list for everyone
October 18 at 2:35pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, leaving aside the Syllabus, and of course Scott's Bestiary.
October 18 at 2:35pm · Unlike · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, first of all, my dissertation - clearly.
October 18 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Second, the scrolls of tNET
October 18 at 2:35pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia In case we run out of toilet paper?
October 18 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson The Bestiary is first on the list of forbidden works
October 18 at 2:36pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I would have some sort of cheese-making manual on mine
October 18 at 2:36pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil When I was a kid I used to wonder whether, if civilization crumbled, we could get back to a tolerably decent level of civilization using, say, the full set of the 1969 Encyclopedia Brittanica my parents had on their bookshelf.
October 18 at 2:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Third is probably some sort of guide to leaves that are suitable for replacing toilet paper, and which leaves and plants to avoid for that purpose.
October 18 at 2:40pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil I would have to assume that for our purposes, things like "The U.S. Army Survival Manual" are not going on the list. Leave the practical matters to others, per usual.
October 18 at 2:38pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Hah. Right - the obvious we must neglect - we would need a lot of "how-to" manuals, one presumes, for basic survival. And math and engineering, etc., would be huge and precious. Without all that, nothing. But we conveniently pretend like that is not the case now, so why start later?
October 18 at 2:39pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I'd say if you want a good all-in-one manual on how to survive in the wilderness, go with something by Horace Kephart. It might be a hundred years out of date, but it's an entertaining read.
October 18 at 2:40pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante we could certainly get back to a tolerable level of civilization with the entire backlist of Dover Books
October 18 at 2:41pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Say what you will about TACers, we are showing a lot more practicality here than Brian Eno.
October 18 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I think the encyclopedia would be pretty much worthless.
October 18 at 2:43pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Eno's list isn't as impractical as all that when it comes to politics and the like, at least insofar as intention goes and general plausibility.
October 18 at 2:45pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Dover Books. Really.
October 18 at 2:44pm · Like · 3
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Brian Kemple I think there's really two different questions at work here, though; there's the question of sustaining civilization and the question of rebuilding civilization. I think rather different books are needed for each.
October 18 at 2:44pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What works do you put on the list re politics if we actually need to build something, or seek to influence the rebuilding?
October 18 at 2:44pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But Eno's list is an example of why western civilization will likely die.
October 18 at 2:46pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Because 1969? 1969 was the Golden Age of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Mortimer Adler was on the board, and like half the articles are by famous people (e.g., Bertrand Russell on relativity).
October 18 at 2:47pm · Edited · Like
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Joel HF Russell wrote for the 1911, which remains the gold standard.
October 18 at 2:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, still not buying it. It gives a picture of an age and a human civilization, and is extremely valuable in that way. But it doesn't really give us much to guide thought as thought or in terms of needed and desirable action, I don't think. But how did you think it would work?
October 18 at 2:49pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil OK, now Joel's here to get huffy about the EB. Fair enough. But the 1969 edition retains the important earlier articles while adding in some important modern technology stuff.
October 18 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'd rather have advanced weaponry and a secure underground bunker more than anything else. Sine qua non.
October 18 at 2:51pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Anyways, that was the edition my parents had, so that was what I wondered about as a kid.
October 18 at 2:50pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund-- do your top 10!
October 18 at 2:50pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Now! Off the cuff!
October 18 at 2:51pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Why are such lists so interesting? Is it because people secretly want civilization to collapse and re-start from scratch?
October 18 at 2:51pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF And cuts back on classics and history. If you ab the two, the 69 butchers alot of the useless knowledge.
October 18 at 2:52pm · Like
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Pater Edmund As in my favorite James Chastek post ever: http://thomism.wordpress.com/.../the-death-wish-in-the.../
The death wish in the contemporary west
Americans have been through any number of "this is the end" worries over the last few years from both the Left...
THOMISM.WORDPRESS.COM
October 18 at 2:52pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil OK, uncle!
October 18 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I read that when you linked to it 20,000 comments ago, Pater Edmund. Can't relate to it at all, since I have kids and all.
October 18 at 2:53pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante for politics: Pentateuch, Joshua/Judges/Kings/Chronicles, Psalms, Gospels, Ep to Hebrews, Revelation; Aristotle's Ethics and Politics; Iliad and Odyssey (or Mahabharata if you live in India, Book of Odes, with commentaries, if in China); Confucius' Analects; Euclid's Elements (and/or Yijing for China); Aesop's Fables
October 18 at 2:53pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF Isn't that why people join monasteries, Pater Edmund?
October 18 at 2:54pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Yep, sorry Pater Edmund, I think your favorite post says more about you than society in general.
October 18 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante btw a fantastic introduction to politics for younger readers is White's "Once and Future King"
October 18 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Anyways, Pater Edmund, I don't know why such lists are so fascinating. If I were the one writing the list, I would find the assignment paralyzing. But I like to criticize what other people do with it.
October 18 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund Jehoshaphat Escalante, you are not allowed to include things that are in the TAC program.
October 18 at 2:54pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But Jehoshaphat Escalante has a sound approach, which is to take the works that most later good works come from.
October 18 at 2:55pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh i was just answering Peterson's last question; wasnt aware of that rule
October 18 at 2:55pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I can't read Chastek blog posts.... I hear his voice in my head.
October 18 at 2:56pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'd add Daodejing to my list too actually
October 18 at 2:56pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Hipster
October 18 at 2:57pm · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe Because China is important, I suppose?
October 18 at 2:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Joel has no room to talk. He had hipster glasses before the hipsters wore glasses, making him more hipster than hipsters.
October 18 at 2:58pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Haha. I like that Chastek post too. I think it underlies much. None of us live outside of that death wish, least of all conservative Romantics who feel it keenly and hence rage against it.
But it is not the whole story, just as historicism is ultimately false - and James is well aware of this.
In fact, great Saints, statesman, and other leaders are those who stand against these overwhelming tides of supposed inevitability - and we recognize them because whether they succeed or fail, they reveal to us the possibility of another path other than despair.
October 18 at 3:00pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Tao Te Ching? Jason?
October 18 at 3:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Despair is waaay more fun
October 18 at 3:00pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe To be fair, his options were limited. He couldn't have grown a hipster mustache before hipsters grew mustaches.
October 18 at 3:01pm · Like · 3
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Pater Edmund My copy of Lila arrived yesterday.
October 18 at 3:01pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson Despair is never fun. Critique, naysaying, sarcasm, and snark in all it's myriad forms can be...
October 18 at 3:02pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I will be very interested to hear your thoughts!
October 18 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Despair keeps you up at night, which makes you more despairing in the morning.
October 18 at 3:02pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The only book I would suggest is The Federalist. Which we would read THE WHOLE TIME.
October 18 at 3:03pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Michael right, Daodejing is modern transliteration
October 18 at 3:03pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^^ and people, Matthew is not joking here, he needs serious help
October 18 at 3:04pm · Unlike · 7
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Pater Edmund Ten blog posts to survive the collapse of the internet. Go.
October 18 at 3:05pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe This has got to be one of them: http://the-toast.net/2014/06/16/every-russian-novel-ever/
Every Russian Novel Ever
A chapter list for every Russian novel ever.
THE-TOAST.NET
October 18 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Pater Edmund links to Chatek's Deathwish post 10 times.
October 18 at 3:07pm · Unlike · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante trick question from Pater Edmund. There will be no blog posts after the collapse of the innerwebs.
October 18 at 3:08pm · Like · 5
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Catherine Joliat Feil Samantha Cohoe Classic. But this one is also quite funny: http://the-toast.net/2014/05/28/every-english-novel-ever/
Every English Novel Ever
The chapter list for every English novel ever, pretty much.
THE-TOAST.NET
October 18 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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Pater Edmund http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/.../lublin-philosophy.../
Lublin, philosophy and shoes
I have trundled all the way down to Lublin to hear two weeks of lectures about that kind of philosophy where...
EXLAODICEA.WORDPRESS.COM
October 18 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I also like the one for Every Canadian Novel Ever but Canadian literature isn't important enough to survive the collapse of anything.
October 18 at 3:10pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe http://the-toast.net/2014/07/22/every-canadian-novel-ever/
Every Canadian Novel Ever
An exhaustive guide to every Canadian novel ever written.
THE-TOAST.NET
October 18 at 3:10pm · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund Escalante, lets say ten survive as print-outs.
October 18 at 3:11pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Things Are Kind of English Here But Not For Everyone.
October 18 at 3:11pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil I can only think of one Canadian novelist off the top of my head (Robertson Davies).
October 18 at 3:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Cry of the Loon Echoes the Cry of My Heart Which Is as Stony as the Land I Attempt to Till
October 18 at 3:12pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Oh and I guess L.M. Montgomery?
October 18 at 3:12pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe The Hero Has a Thousand Faces But They All Look a LOT Like Robertson Davies
October 18 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Two Solitudes isnt bad
October 18 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe lol Canadian literature lololol.
October 18 at 3:13pm · Unlike · 4
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Pater Edmund "If you were on a desert island and had all of Canadian literature to choose from what would you take?" "Poison."
October 18 at 3:14pm · Unlike · 6
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Samantha Cohoe Good one!!
October 18 at 3:15pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Can't wait to use that on my in-laws!!
October 18 at 3:15pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe j/k, I will say it in my head only and imagine their hilariously wounded reactions.
October 18 at 3:15pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF Are they super into literature?
October 18 at 3:15pm · Like
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Pater Edmund Not original.
October 18 at 3:15pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Sort of reminds me of when Lady Astor said to Churchill, "If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea," to which he responded, "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it!"
October 18 at 3:16pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe No, just super into Canada-not-being-inferior-to-the-US-in-any-way-even-the-most-obvious
October 18 at 3:17pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I've got some aunts-in-law who are into literature, though, and made me read way more Canadian lit than anyone should ever have to read
October 18 at 3:18pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil (The common thread there being amusing anecdotes about suicide by poisoning, I guess?)
October 18 at 3:19pm · Edited · Like
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Pater Edmund Random quote from Jeffrey Eugenides: “Some people majored in English to prepare for law school. Others became journalists. The smartest guy in the honors program, Adam Vogel, a child of academics, was planning on getting a Ph.D. and becoming an academic himself. That left a large contingent of people majoring in English by default. Because they weren't left-brained enough for science, because history was too try, philosophy too difficult, geology too petroleum-oriented, and math too mathematical - because they weren't musical, artistic, financially motivated, or really all that smart, these people were pursuing university degrees doing something no different from what they'd done in first grade: reading stories. English was what people who didn't know what to major in majored in.”
October 18 at 3:18pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF So like, one book? Bwahahaha
October 18 at 3:18pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil So who are the other Canadian literary lights we're missing out on?
October 18 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov Canadian literature is terrible. Though there is reams of literature written by Canadians not touted as "Canadian Literature" that is very good, but it is the hipster of literature because no one has ever heard of it.
October 18 at 3:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Just read the Every Canadian Novel ever list. It tells you all you need to know
October 18 at 3:20pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I have no frame of reference other than liking Gordon Korman as a kid.
October 18 at 3:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov Thomas Costain?
October 18 at 3:21pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But if you must know, the least bad were Rudy Weibe, Alice Monroe, Michael Ondaatje
October 18 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And yes, sooooo much Robertson Davies
October 18 at 3:22pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Did not know Ondaatje was Canadian.
October 18 at 3:23pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe And then there's Marie Chapdelaine, which Canadians claim even though it was written by a frenchman who hated Canada, as is evident from the book
October 18 at 3:24pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Ondaatje moved to Canada when he was 19, according to Wikipedia. Does that even count?
October 18 at 3:26pm · Like
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Joel HF Here's what TAC has too many of: Canadians and the professional Irish.
October 18 at 3:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah, it shouldn't, but they count him.
October 18 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov No you have to be born here with the grasshoppers or the dwindling cod and hate deep seated hatred of Toronto.
October 18 at 3:27pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Canada is a US border town.
October 18 at 3:29pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I keep hoping an offended Canadian will pop up, but apparently Patrick (?) is not offended
October 18 at 3:29pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil So, @Samantha, did you have to pretend to be super enthused about this treasure trove of medicrity?
October 18 at 3:29pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov And Joel, as TAC owes much if not all its intellectual lineage from a Canadian there cannot be too many Canadians at TAC.
October 18 at 3:30pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante like a Tijuana with bad weather and no bullfights
October 18 at 3:30pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine- yep! I mostly tried to steer the conversation to Alice Monroe.
October 18 at 3:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF What Canadian would that be? CDK was Belgian.
October 18 at 3:31pm · Unlike · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov No as a Canadian I feel that it is our duty to laugh at our absurdity. It is one of the best traits of Canadians.
October 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante De Koninck was Belgian
October 18 at 3:31pm · Unlike · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil (For those keeping score, this afternoon's tNET activity has featured several "likes" by non-posters. I.e., lurkers.)
October 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante beat you to it Joel
October 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov I fought a moose with a fallen tree once, while drinking a beer.
October 18 at 3:31pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov That's better than bull fights
October 18 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine-- out them!
October 18 at 3:33pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Was it a Canadian beer?
October 18 at 3:33pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov We were all immigrants once, and he lived here and taught at a Canadian institution, the Belgian part was given up just like every Belgian truly wants to do.
October 18 at 3:33pm · Like
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Joel HF Mine appears first on my phone. #fbsolipsisticgnosis
October 18 at 3:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Oleg with your first name presumably you are Ukrainian but is your surname originally Greek? It must be
October 18 at 3:33pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov It was Big Rock Traditional Ale
October 18 at 3:33pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Too much work to scroll back up and find them, now. Plus it's Matthew J. Peterson's job to out them. They're his friends.
October 18 at 3:34pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Jehoshaphat Escalante That's a moniker.
October 18 at 3:34pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I think he's an irish canuck, Jehoshaphat Escalante.
October 18 at 3:35pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov From a Russian novel
October 18 at 3:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ah I see
October 18 at 3:35pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I dont read Russian novels.
October 18 at 3:35pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe: I know the producers who made the recent Hateship Loveship film - have you seen it? I haven't. Curious.
October 18 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but it would be a Slavicization of "Kostoglou"
October 18 at 3:36pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hateship,_Loveship
Hateship, Loveship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hateship, Loveship is an American drama film directed...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 18 at 3:36pm · Like
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Joel HF Jehoshaphat Escalante are they the only thing you don't read?
October 18 at 3:37pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov Solzhenitsyn, my favourite Russian novelist
October 18 at 3:37pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hm, I haven't seen it, but I could see how it could make a good script
October 18 at 3:37pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson They put together a decent cast
October 18 at 3:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Interesting. We'll have to check it out
October 18 at 3:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Maybe I can watch it with my mother-in-law sometime as a peace offering.
October 18 at 3:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well now I'm calling you Ulick McKostoglotov.
October 18 at 3:42pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe We had this for dinner: http://www.halfbakedharvest.com/crockpot-crispy.../
Crockpot Crispy Caramelized Pork Ramen Noodle Soup
Crockpot Crispy Caramelized Pork Ramen Noodle Soup
HALFBAKEDHARVEST.COM
October 18 at 6:15pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe It was very good.
October 18 at 6:15pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If nobody steps up to the plate, I'm going to turn tNET into my second Pinterest feed.
October 18 at 6:16pm · Unlike · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil You were done with dinner at 5:15?!
October 18 at 6:31pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Wife and kids sculpted owls today.
Michael Beitia's photo.
October 18 at 6:41pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson My Saturday.
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 18 at 6:42pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Catherine-- it took less time than I though it would to cook, and it smelled really good so we ate it early.
October 18 at 6:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia let's see - I took the older four kids to swim lessons (dropped off with Erin) meantime took youngest to get a doughnut, picked up the five, cooked brunch for everyone (sausage, another kind of sausage, hash browns, scrambled eggs, biscuits and gravy) cleaned up after making brunch mess. Went shopping for jeans that don't have holes in them (unlike the ones I'm wearing) and also poster board for daughter's school project, Polish grocery for bizarre cans of preserved fish, then home to finish last load of laundry in the wash, next 2 hrs. (roughly) doing my weekly folding. Just finished that.
October 18 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland There is far too little animosity on tNET right now. It's practically like a synod around here.
October 18 at 7:00pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Nemesis - from my recent trip to the Getty Villa.
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 18 at 7:06pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I was displaying animosity to Canadian literature earlier, Catherine, but everybody was fine with that.
October 18 at 7:10pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia That's because Canada sucks.
October 18 at 7:12pm · Unlike · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Come on, Canadian lurkers, are you going to let him talk about your homeland like that?
October 18 at 7:14pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails...
Nemesis (Getty Museum)
A work by Unknown from the J. Paul Getty Museum's collection.
GETTY.EDU
October 18 at 7:19pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia They would probably just apologize for disagreeing with me.
October 18 at 7:19pm · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Turns out a lot of Roman Emperor's wives were sculptured as younger women even though much older at the time of the sculpting.
No pressure, sculpturer. No pressure.
October 18 at 7:22pm · Unlike · 4
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Samantha Cohoe You know, I haven't ever found the whole "Canadians are polite" thing to be especially true.
October 18 at 7:22pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That's a Canadian that Nemesis is stepping on, by the way.
October 18 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I loved asking them at TAC about this time of year when they celebrated "Canadian Christmas".
October 18 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Nemesis is awesome. I wish I were an Emperor's wife so someone would sculpt me as Nemesis.
October 18 at 7:24pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe In all seriousness, though, some of my favorite people are Canadians.
October 18 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman Not sure what Canada has ever contributed to the world aside from Rush.
October 18 at 7:25pm · Unlike · 1
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Michael Beitia Propaghandi
October 18 at 7:25pm · Like
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John Ashman Canadian conservatives are super polite. But the Canadian left is insufferable.
October 18 at 7:26pm · Like
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Mark McMillen Don't forget the McKenzie Brothers.... very important Canadian cultural contribution.
October 18 at 7:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Behold, a lurker!
October 18 at 7:27pm · Like · 4
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John Ashman Canadian Halloween is in August.....
October 18 at 7:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Hello, Mark McMillen! Are you, by chance, Canadian?
October 18 at 7:28pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Actually, Canada contributes a lot to the world, especially for a country of its population.
October 18 at 7:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Mark McMillen No, eh. I mean, no way.
See Translation
October 18 at 7:29pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy I'm Canadian. And Canadian literature does suck. I had to take a Canadian literature course in uni and at the end I burned all the books. Literally. In a bonfire in the Canadian bush.
October 18 at 7:29pm · Unlike · 9
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Samantha Cohoe THat's awesome, Monica. You are an awesome Canadian
October 18 at 7:30pm · Like · 2
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Monica Murphy My Canadian-lit-loving fiance is still horrified at this episode from my past.
October 18 at 7:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Tell him to come on tNET and defend Canadian literature. We'll be nice.
October 18 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Don't lie, Samantha.
October 18 at 7:33pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe OK, we'd be on him like ants on a popsicle, but it would be fun!
October 18 at 7:39pm · Unlike · 3
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Monica Murphy Come on over, Trevor!
October 18 at 7:39pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Unless I am missing something, this is a listing for a $68 stuffed hot dog. An ugly stuffed hot dog, to boot. There truly is a sucker born every minute. https://www.jcrew.com/.../toysanda.../PRDOVR~B3078/B3078.jsp
Baby Oeuf® hot dog
When buying something adorable means helping out someone else, everything just seems to make sense....
JCREW.COM
October 18 at 7:41pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Made by indigenous women in Bolivia!
October 18 at 7:41pm · Like
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Monica Murphy Joel HF: Go Jump In The Pool! The War with Mr. Wizzle!
October 18 at 7:42pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe But Catherine, it's made from baby Alpaca wool! Just think how soft and long-wearing your child's hot dog would be!
October 18 at 7:43pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil The copy is howl-inducing.
October 18 at 7:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe When buying something adorable means helping out someone else, everything just seems to make sense. And that's what you're doing when you choose Brooklyn-based Oeuf's soft stuffed alpaca hot dog, inspired by the ubiquitous hot-dog vendors of New York. Oeuf's knits are made in Bolivia by a self-managed community of indigenous women, and the artisanal crafts they produce enable them to afford proper health care and an education for their children.
October 18 at 7:44pm · Unlike · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Everything just seems to make sense! Like buying a stuffed hot dog that costs some people's weekly grocery budget!
October 18 at 7:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Oh Catherine, I'm sure the indigenous women of Bolivia get most of the proceeds of that 80 dollar hot dog.
October 18 at 7:51pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia sure..
October 18 at 7:57pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm going to start announcing what you all are talking about in the status.
October 18 at 8:31pm · Like · 7
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Megan Baird What Canadian literature?
October 18 at 8:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Nice edit in the status
October 18 at 8:35pm · Like · 2
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Megan Baird I don't mean to be snarky; I've just not read a lot of Canadian lit (if I've read any.)
October 18 at 8:36pm · Like
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John Ashman This reminds me of my shock and bemusement when my wife used the term "Mexican scientists" and I was like wha?????? "We have scientists too!". " Yeah....but....."
October 18 at 8:43pm · Like · 1
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Murray S. Y. Bessette You do know an expert on Canadian literature, Matthew J. Peterson: Lee Skallerup Bessette! I think most Canadians think Can Lit sucks, for what it's worth.
October 18 at 8:46pm · Unlike · 7
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Brian Kemple I like calling it Canadia. I mean, hell, if people from Cambodia are Cambodians, and Alexander was a Macedonian, shouldn't Canadians be from Canadia?
October 18 at 8:50pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Murray S. Y. Bessette: I'm not responsible for tNET's content. I'm just going to start reporting what the given topic is in the status. But Lee Skallerup Bessette's thoughts are welcome. As are Patricia Ferri Rodrigue's.
October 18 at 8:54pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Vicious anti-Canadianism on display around here. I'm only moderately anti-Canadian.
October 18 at 8:56pm · Like · 1
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Murray S. Y. Bessette I'm probably the greatest anti-Canadian around!
October 18 at 8:58pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I know.
October 18 at 8:59pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No one can out anti-Canadian Canadians turned Merican
October 18 at 9:00pm · Like · 3
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Oleg Kostoglotov We are used to the vicious anti-Canadianism. It's the fourth favourite pastime at TAC after sophistry, drinking, and wearing silly clothes from the victorian era.
October 18 at 9:00pm · Unlike · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson As it turns out, I am going to a Canadian Thanksgiving party tonight.
October 18 at 9:02pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Looking forward to the traditional Canadian foods.
October 18 at 9:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Or something.
October 18 at 9:03pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov Butter tarts
October 18 at 9:03pm · Like
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Murray S. Y. Bessette It's called beer
October 18 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman I blame South Park.
October 18 at 9:04pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I don't have anything against Canadia as such, but I greatly enjoy poking fun at Canadians. For some reason, many have come to the Center for Thomistic Studies.
October 18 at 9:08pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I leave for an afternoon, and I return to find you guys bashing the country you all secretly wish you were born in.
October 18 at 9:10pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson But you're right, of course. America has all the high crime rates and obesity a guy could ask for. What's not to love?
October 18 at 9:13pm · Like
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Sean Robertson And not even Canadians read Canadian lit. We don't need to, because we have hockey instead.
October 18 at 9:14pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Although, to be fair, I don't think American lit is that good either (for the most part).
October 18 at 9:15pm · Unlike · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe:maybe Murray S. Y. Bessette and Lee Skallerup Bessette can help you help your husband renounce his Canadian citizenship.
October 18 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe There is no comparison between American lit and Canadian lit. There just is not.
October 18 at 9:22pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That's the sort of talk that gets Canadians mocked.
October 18 at 9:23pm · Like
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Sean Robertson ^I was not trying to compare them.
October 18 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 1
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Sean Robertson American lit is unquestionably better.
October 18 at 9:24pm · Unlike · 2
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Michael Beitia and it isn't Canadia, Brian, it is Canadans from Canada.
October 18 at 9:24pm · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler I like the headline at the top of tNet now- like Drudge report! It's hard to participate when I don't know what the current topic is. I'm like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know....
October 18 at 9:24pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson She is an expert Dr. in Canadian lit. And he is up for tenure. And yet we don't hold that against them. For they have crossed the not-so-great divide.
October 18 at 9:25pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Vladamir Ulianov!
October 18 at 9:25pm · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler And how's this for a contribution.... I don't know whether Canadian literature sucks or not... because I don't know of any!
October 18 at 9:25pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I just don't think it holds up to other literature out there. At least what I've read (which, granted, is not extensive).
October 18 at 9:25pm · Like
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Claire Keeler Flanders Field was a Canadaian poem, right?
October 18 at 9:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia couldn't even be a scribble in the margin of Russian Lit
October 18 at 9:26pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Yep.
October 18 at 9:26pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I also was saying intentionally provocative things because you guys took to bashing my country while I was gone.
October 18 at 9:27pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia your country? you mean 'Merica's back forty?
October 18 at 9:28pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I mean your better half.
October 18 at 9:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, she's from the Midwest (ugh)
October 18 at 9:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry if I seem distracted, I'm watching hockey on a live stream.....
October 18 at 9:30pm · Like · 1
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Justin Tse Wait, how did we start talking about Canadia?
October 18 at 9:30pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I also think it's funny that Americans always feel the need to bash Canada, whereas back home we just roll our eyes at you guys and move on with our lives.
October 18 at 9:31pm · Unlike · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I think I brought it up, because of this: http://the-toast.net/2014/07/22/every-canadian-novel-ever/
Every Canadian Novel Ever
An exhaustive guide to every Canadian novel ever written.
THE-TOAST.NET
October 18 at 9:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^and eat seal meat and chop wood
October 18 at 9:31pm · Like
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Justin Tse Agreed. Until I cross the border. Then I play up my Canadianness.
October 18 at 9:32pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, Sean, that is so untrue
October 18 at 9:32pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Every time I visit my in-laws, I'm bombarded with "Canada is a great country, you know"
October 18 at 9:32pm · Unlike · 3
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Sean Robertson There are always exceptions, Samantha. For example, I know of a few Americans that aren't arrogant jerks.
October 18 at 9:35pm · Like
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Sean Robertson ^Joking.
October 18 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson (Mostly)
October 18 at 9:35pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe But really, for a country that's a small fraction the size and importance of the US, Canada does pretty well.
October 18 at 9:37pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I also think it's adorable how Americans still think they are so clever for making a Canadian joke just by adding an overemphatic "eh?" on the end of a normal sentence.
October 18 at 9:38pm · Like
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Sean Robertson By the way, I don't hate the States or Americans. I just like poking fun at the generalized ego and seeing what happens.
October 18 at 9:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia sorry. sorry
October 18 at 9:39pm · Like
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Justin Tse That's what I did when I taught American Religion.
October 18 at 9:39pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Also everyone who has been following the Synod even a little bit should read this:
http://en.radiovaticana.va/.../pope_francis.../1108944
Pope Francis speech at the conclusion of the Synod
Pope Francis speech at the conclusion of the Synod
EN.RADIOVATICANA.VA
October 18 at 9:43pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Let's bash Irish lit now: http://the-toast.net/2014/06/30/every-irish-novel-ever/
Every Irish Novel Ever
The chapter list for every Irish novel ever.
THE-TOAST.NET
October 18 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I read the Pope closing speech.
Disappointed, again.
October 18 at 9:47pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Do You Know What Would Be Very Sad? So Many Things; Let’s List Them All
October 18 at 9:47pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Michael, say more.
October 18 at 9:48pm · Like
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Sean Robertson He basically just said, "Hey guys, that was cool. Arguing can be fruitful, but the Pope and the Church are still Catholic, so deal with it."
October 18 at 9:49pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Which is really all I wanted to hear from him.
October 18 at 9:51pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia still had to fire a shot across the bow of "so-called traditionalists" and talk about how much they need to:
Dear brothers and sisters, now we still have one year to mature, with true spiritual discernment, the proposed ideas and to find concrete solutions to so many difficulties and innumerable challenges that families must confront; to give answers to the many discouragements that surround and suffocate families.
what does this clap-trap mean?It sounds like the parting speech of a defeated politician.
October 18 at 9:53pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It's really unclear to me what the synod is actually supposed to accomplish.
October 18 at 9:56pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Right, fair enough. But nobody expected him to come out and say "Hey guys, Burke's right. Listen to him." And he also fired what I think was a bigger shot across the "liberal/progressive" bow.
October 18 at 9:56pm · Like
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Michael Beitia only because he had to because Cardinal Kasper, in the parlance of our times, bared his ass
October 18 at 9:57pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson And he said nothing in favour of the garbage that came out in the Relatio, but instead simply reaffirmed the Church's teaching on marriage and that the Church is Catholic.
October 18 at 9:57pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Yeah, but I think that should hopefully dispel the crazy theory that the Pope agrees with Kasper.
October 18 at 10:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia What about the paragraph I quoted above? that seems to suggest:
This was all a trial run, we'll try again next year. No? How else do we read the "proposed ideas and to find concrete solutions"?
October 18 at 10:03pm · Like
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Sean Robertson The whole point of this Extraordinary Synod was simply to work out the "status quaestionis" and provide food for thought for the Ordinary Synod to work with next year.
October 18 at 10:05pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Now granted, not all that food for thought was very good, but from what I gather, the garbage coming out in the relatio and the media don't even come close to reflecting the majority of what was actually talked about, as the published suggestions of the Circuli Minores attests.
October 18 at 10:07pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia IDK, while I have faith in the Church and the Petrine office, that doesn't mean that everything every Pope does at every time is good, or that every private opinion of every Pope is orthodox.
October 18 at 10:14pm · Like · 4
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Max Summe I like that the Pope called everybody out for their BS. And that he made it clear that he's trying to do something with this process - to allow the Church to flourish in a different way...
October 18 at 10:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia what the hell does "flourish in a different way" mean?
October 18 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Also wondering that.
October 18 at 10:19pm · Like
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Max Summe It means I've had a few whiskeys and I don't have to be specific.
October 18 at 10:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ^is that the Pope's excuse?
October 18 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe I think Pope Francis is trying to fix the Church's divisions
October 18 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia by babbling fluff?
October 18 at 10:20pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I can happily say that – with a spirit of collegiality and of synodality – we have truly lived the experience of “Synod,” a path of solidarity, a “journey together.”
^meaningless
October 18 at 10:21pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe After reading his statement, I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing
October 18 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson A quixotic endeavour, but I suppose that's what it means to be Pope.
October 18 at 10:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia after reading his statement I'm less optimistic about next year's synod
October 18 at 10:21pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Michael, it seems to me that the opposition to the Kasperites and progressives was actually a unifying factor unseen in Church for quite some time.
October 18 at 10:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it isn't clear which side of that "divide" Francis is on
October 18 at 10:24pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Neither, I think.
October 18 at 10:24pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Which I think is Max's point.
October 18 at 10:24pm · Like
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Sean Robertson But he was clearly unhappy with the Kasper side.
October 18 at 10:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia ha. I hope you are right
October 18 at 10:25pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I hope so too.
October 18 at 10:25pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I usually agree with you on these things.
October 18 at 10:25pm · Like
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Sean Robertson I think that speech just gave me some optimism.
October 18 at 10:26pm · Like
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Max Summe "a deceptive mercy binds the wounds without first curing them" - this is Kaspar's position, which the Pope calls out.
October 18 at 10:26pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe he also calls out "traditionalists" for "wanting to close oneself within the written word, (the letter) and not allowing oneself to be surprised by God, by the God of surprises, (the spirit); within the law, within the certitude of what we know and not of what we still need to learn and to achieve."
October 18 at 10:27pm · Like
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Max Summe so - basically he is telling everyone - you all love God. You just aren't listening to the Spirit or each other - and you are succumbing to these temptations.
October 18 at 10:27pm · Like
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Max Summe But hey - chill out man... we're ALL sinners. We all get it wrong at least sometimes:
"Dear brothers and sisters, the temptations must not frighten or disconcert us, or even discourage us, because no disciple is greater than his master; so if Jesus Himself was tempted – and even called Beelzebul (cf. Mt 12:24) – His disciples should not expect better treatment."
October 18 at 10:28pm · Like
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Michael Beitia "surprised by God, by the God of surprises" - more fluff.
October 18 at 10:28pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe Basically - calm down, and learn to respect your brother and talk to him, because as you see, I'm not going to swoop down and decide everything because while that is ultimately my job... SUBSIDIARITY!!!!
October 18 at 10:28pm · Like
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Max Summe I would say that's not fluff
October 18 at 10:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia fluff. fluffy flufftastic fluffitudinal fluff
October 18 at 10:29pm · Like
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Max Summe Unless you think Crucifixion of God was basically expected?
October 18 at 10:29pm · Like
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Sean Robertson "The temptation to come down off the Cross, to please the people, and not stay there, in order to fulfil the will of the Father; to bow down to a worldly spirit instead of purifying it and bending it to the Spirit of God."
October 18 at 10:30pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson ^Very appropriate
October 18 at 10:30pm · Like
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Max Summe I think we should all be thankful we have a Pope who's all communion + liberation along with being very in line with B16.
October 18 at 10:30pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I can truly say, with a spirit of tNETiness and confrontation, that we have truly lived and experienced tNET
October 18 at 10:31pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia parting shot for the evening:
most gentlemen (and ladies) here seem to take everything Pope Francis says in the most charitable light possible. Good for you. I guess I just lack
#Francisinterpretationgnosis
October 18 at 10:41pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Francis is the Pope of (planned) surprises.
October 18 at 11:13pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I will be charitable, too, and thus assume that he meant what he said when he said that God is not the Catholic God.
October 18 at 11:18pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We once had a Canadian restaurant in my hometown. The question soon became why? It closed and never did well. Whatever may be said of Canada, I think it is deficient in the culinary area.
In its place is now a Croatian cafe that has excellent food....
As far as literature, "there is Canadian literature?" - Most everyone.
October 18 at 11:30pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz I am happy that the agenda of the special appointees of pope Francis was thwarted (Kasper, Daneels, etc). I will be happier if they lose their red hats.
October 18 at 11:31pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Thwarted by not destroyed. We will see it morph into many more heresies before this show is over.
October 18 at 11:33pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond As for Francis' statement about God, not even George Weigel could put that Humpty Dumpty of a comment back together again.
October 18 at 11:34pm · Like · 1
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John Ashman This is a bit disappointing...... http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/.../most-comments-on.../
October 18 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Ashman #Francisinterpretationgnosis
Redundancy alert^^^^^
October 18 at 11:42pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Apparently, according to some, Francis promotes Kasper and the pederast loving Daneels because he disagrees with them, gives prominence to their ideas because he disagrees and allows them to claim he is on their side, and says nothing to correct it (lack of affirmation is not correction) because he disagrees.
The most charitable thing is that Francis the the product of a confused Church at a confused time and honestly believes that collegiality will "hit the truth" and gave prominence to these modernists, because he doesn't recognize them for what they are and honestly wants debate....but how to reconcile the one sided media gag etc with that spin....hmmm
October 18 at 11:57pm · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Who changes the topic at the top? Is that you Matthew?
October 19 at 12:01am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Joshua -- what did they serve at the Canadian restaurant? Poutine and flipper pie?
October 19 at 12:02am · Like
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Brian Kemple I get apprehensive anytime someone starts talking Church-wise about "the spirit" without meaning the Third Person.
October 19 at 12:08am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz As far as I can tell fish and chips, chicken (chicken sandwich, chicken salad, chicken this) and poutine. And a cheeseburger with Canadian ham on it
Terrible Canadian beer (mind you the number 1, 2 and 3 beers in Canada are all American...Canadians aren't better at beer, and in fact with mircobrews we have surpassed them).Just about every positive review mentions poutine....
October 19 at 12:13am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wait. Canadian beer is superior to American -- that is a well known fact.
October 19 at 12:13am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz No, it isn't. It is comparable with Bud and Coors and other crappy beer, maybe better than most bad beer (though Canadians drink Bud, Coos, etc in higher percentage than Americans!), but they have nothing that compares with our mid level beers, let alone the best of our microbrews
October 19 at 12:17am · Like · 5
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Mrs.mike.
October 19 at 12:19am · Like
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Jody , puhleeeze.
October 19 at 12:20am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Molson is just a more alcoholic version if the ricy lagers that is Bud or Coors, and Coors is more palatable.
Really the comparison became outdated after the 1970's. No one who prefers Molsons or Bud has good taste. There are a few good Canadian beers, but that is not what is meant in this comparison, nor what this place sold [La fin dun Monde comes to mind).
October 19 at 12:21am · Like · 2
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Lauren Ogrodnick Moosehead.
October 19 at 12:39am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau lurker Margaret!
October 19 at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Do craft brews even exist in Canada?
October 19 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Oh heck yeah. Especially in Vancouver
October 19 at 12:42am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Moosehead distributes some decent midlevel beers, like Sam Adams Bost Lager or Octoberfest
October 19 at 12:44am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau http://blogs.theprovince.com/.../the-brewed-awakening.../...
New BC microbreweries in 2014 – Brewed Awakening craft beer blog | The Province
Last updated Aug. 27. Brace yourselves, craft beer...
BLOGS.THEPROVINCE.COM
October 19 at 12:45am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Moosehead Lager is ranked as "ok" by beer advocate. I agree with that. Considering it is an American Pale Lager, and within that genre of US invented beers should be compared to Bud or Coors, it does very well within the subgroup of pisswater beer.
But Anchor California Pale Lager is worlds above Moosehead.
October 19 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Not convinced.
October 19 at 12:47am · Like · 1
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Margaret Grimm Blackwell Lol
October 19 at 12:47am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau We don't drink Moosehead in BC
October 19 at 12:48am · Like
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Joshua Kenz And contrary to myth, Canadian beer is not stronger. Historically they labelled by volume, America by weight. The exact same alcoholic context is higher by one form than the other.
Lauren Ogrodnick mentioned Moosehead.
As I said there are decent Canadian beers... La fin du Monde is well worth it. But that is not the substance of the decades old myth. In reality, Canadian beer has followed American, in styles and trend. Both being consolidated and almost universally pale American lagers, and pisswater at that by the 1970's, with a differing measure making Canadians wrongly think their beer was stronger (on average it was lower)
The Canadians following American trends continues, with the reversal of the trend we saw till the 1970's, namely the advent of microbrews (which really, as a term, makes sense only under US federal taxcode)
Though Bud and Coors remain more popular in Canada than in the US... hmm....
October 19 at 12:52am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Craft brews are so popular that the archdiocese used them as a marketing technique for the 2014 men's conference (we call them microbrews though… maybe craft beer is the US name?)
October 19 at 12:54am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Microbrew is an American term, arising out of the US tax code
October 19 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Craft beer is use because major beer companies got into marketing smaller batched, richer styles of beer in response
October 19 at 12:55am · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Microbrew versus macrobrew is a tax category...how much do you brew and so how are you taxed. Craft refers to the style.
October 19 at 12:56am · Like
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Pater Edmund Nothing has made me question my political principles more than the realization that a certain apologist for Canada quotes my blog to support his pro Canada arguments: http://jmbtx123.wordpress.com/.../peace-order-and-good.../
Seriously. It's almost enough to make me a raging Peterson-ian.
Peace, Order, and Good Government
Peace, Order and Good Government – this tripartite motto lays the ground-work and expresses the...
JMBTX123.WORDPRESS.COM
October 19 at 1:09am · Edited · Unlike · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau But the guy lives in Texas. And he's Canadian?
October 19 at 1:12am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Are you sure that isn't Scott?
October 19 at 1:13am · Unlike · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau Did you check out the blogger's proposed Liberal Arts syllabus?
October 19 at 1:13am · Unlike · 3
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Jeff Neill I'm confused, what beer is from Canada that is good?
Do they not export it?
Bud is Indian. (InBev)
Miller is British. (Miller)
No clue who owns Coors.
Moosehead is the cardigan version of Rolling Rock (not a compliment; not literal)
Sam Adams all tastes like crappy Sam Adams... Doesn't matter the variety, they all taste like the same crap with flavoring a added. Like bad coffee masked with "French vanilla" fake creamer.
October 19 at 1:28am · Edited · Like · 3
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Erik Bootsma What the hell is canadian literature? Is it about making underwear from penguin skins? (Apparently the job of John Sheldrick.)
October 19 at 1:29am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Sorry I was gone for so long tNET. I was in Prague yesterday.
October 19 at 1:36am · Unlike · 3
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Erik Bootsma Excused absence granted! So long as you had some good Budweis.
October 19 at 1:36am · Like · 2
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Jody Haaf Garneau We missed you Daniel. They were unruly.
October 19 at 1:36am · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Jeff -- no, we don't export the good stuff; we save it for ourselves. Even the cheap stuff requires a Canadian passport to access it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gper3YkzMg
Molson Canadian Beer Fridge - Scan Your Passport | Molson Canadian
Follow Molson Canadian on: Twitter: https://twitter.com...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 19 at 1:38am · Like
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Erik Bootsma I've had Molson Canadian here.
October 19 at 1:39am · Like
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John Ruplinger Pater has been outed as a crypto-Canadian [not so crypto monarchist.]
October 19 at 1:39am · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger No Stephen Leacock love? (not quite literature)
October 19 at 1:42am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Molson is just a more alcoholic version of the ubiquitous American Pale lager...and isn't even Canadian owned. Moosehead is the largest Canadian owned beer company.
October 19 at 1:42am · Like · 3
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Jody Haaf Garneau I bet Austrian beers taste even better
October 19 at 1:48am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz AFAIK there are no Canadian styles of beer. Maybe Ice beer which is based on Eisboch. The difference is using the German process on an American Pale Lager. Whereas the German Eisboch is using the process on a dubbel-boch
Cream Ale, as it is called in Canada, was of American origination wholly. Kentucky Common is its real name.
MolsonCoors is the name of the company btw....Molson merged with Coors, and is now incorporated via the merger in the US...so Molson is really American more than Canadian, though people of both nationalities hold stock.
October 19 at 1:48am · Like
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John Ruplinger I like Canadian bacon. Can that count? (The beer discussion is depressing and it just reminded me of their alcohol taxes and limited selection at least in Vancouver.)
October 19 at 1:58am · Like
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Joshua Kenz As a percentage, craft beer makes up twice as much of the US market than the Canadian market, with 98% of US breweries being craft beer (almost half of which are mircobrews, another almost half brewpubs [even smaller], and a small percentage being regional craft brewers)
By contrast, Canada has a small number of brewpubs, most actually cahin owned (Firkin group) from the UK. Their first microbrew was 17 yrs after the revival of smaller brewers and craft beer started in the US (with Anchor). Like the US, which in 1978 and 1979 eased regulations on brewing (the only good thing Carted did), Canada a few years later did the same, starting in British Columbia.
Still brewpubs remain illegal in most Canadian provinces, and taxes, outside of British Columbia, are inimical to microbreweries. Further, strict regulation in many provinces is cost prohibitive to craft brewing and beer price in general is significantly higher in Canada than the US because of taxes and regulation, making the cost of bad beer comparable to good beer here, and making the price mark for craft beer expensive enough to limit the market
British Columbia is the most favorable to craft brewing, whether micro or not. Which is probably why they have the most of it in Canada.
Still the price and selection in the original Vancouver, which is in Washington, would be better, despite Washington having stupidly high beer taxes for a US state (California is much lower)
In summary, Canadians have a ways to go to match the explosion of craft beer in the US, or even in the UK (with it Campaign for Real Ale)
October 19 at 2:01am · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger Did Leacock sing any praise of Canada? This is just brutal.
October 19 at 2:02am · Like
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Pater Edmund Does anyone have a copy of Breier Scheetz's quaestio on whether Canada exists?
October 19 at 2:18am · Edited · Like · 4
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Jody Haaf Garneau I don't know what to make of Cardinal Schoenborn
October 19 at 2:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz I have it in a filing cabinet, not accessible
October 19 at 2:22am · Like · 1
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Pater Edmund I would be interested in Cardinal Kasper's thoughts on this: http://www.theguardian.com/.../04/i-married-myself-wedding
I married myself
Finding the right person to make a commitment to can take years, but it turned out that Grace Gelder had...
THEGUARDIAN.COM|BY NICK CUNARD
October 19 at 2:56am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman So, you should all go to Prague at your earliest respective conveniences.
October 19 at 5:27am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz why
October 19 at 5:58am · Like
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Daniel Lendman It is one of the most beautiful cities I have seen, it has St. Luke's Skull (I was there on his feast day yesterday), the infant of Prague is there, the beautiful Basilica of St. Nicholas, Carls Bridge, The Old Town, and reasonable prices since they are not on the euro.
October 19 at 6:00am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman I like the Pope's post-synodal address.
October 19 at 6:25am · Edited · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I also like Cardinal Schoeborn.
October 19 at 6:10am · Like · 1
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Monica Murphy WE DO HAVE AMAZING MICRO-BREW BEER IN BC! And of course we have a "smaller" number - we only have about 10% of the population of the US.
October 19 at 6:22am · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz ^I mentioned that BC has microbreweries and was the most favorable Canadian province to such things....but you guys, even adjusted for population, don't come close yet to the US
October 19 at 6:24am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, I terribly like a lot of things I shouldn't
October 19 at 6:24am · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill The self marriage article is nearly identical to the reasons why a colleague changed genders. It was an admitted self-love-affair. Although instead of being a self absorbed millennial, she was married for about 20 years with a couple near adult children.
October 19 at 7:13am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Anyway, I would like to take this time to say: I told you so, about the Synod.
October 19 at 7:15am · Like
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Joshua Kenz Told who what? Unlike you I don't like the final address, and we don't have the final product in any sense of the word final...
October 19 at 7:17am · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz It kind of ended as a wash, with a rematch next year scheduled
October 19 at 7:17am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Meh.
October 19 at 7:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I told everyone to not worry, and that the most controversial stuff would not stay.
October 19 at 7:21am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I also said that the media would quickly go back to its comfort zone of considering the Church a homophobic institution.
October 19 at 7:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman The "relatio" document will have little effect.
October 19 at 7:22am · Like
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Daniel Lendman And the rather baseless narrative of the "liberal" Pope Francis being stymied by the "conservative" tendencies of prelates like Card. Burke, will continue.
October 19 at 7:23am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill ...later in the news today: "the Pope is Carholic." We will have more information as this story develops..... Back to you in the studio.
October 19 at 7:35am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Moreover, and in conclusion, everyone should put Prague on his bucket list.
October 19 at 7:37am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Mr. Kenz speaks the truth about craft beer. That's another one of those areas where it's foolishness to even compare the US and Canada. You could perhaps compare Canada and Colorado. Even then, I'm confident Colorado would come out far ahead.
October 19 at 8:24am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Inbev, as Kenz mentioned earlier, is evil. They have put local producers of hops out of business in Germany, and pretty much made everything they touch taste awful. Goose Island was a craft brewery in Chicago, ruined by being acquired. I boycott them (even breweries that are only partially owned, like childhood favorite Redhook, that is not on the list):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AB_InBev_brands
AB InBev brands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Its global brands are Budweiser, Corona and Stella...
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
October 19 at 8:49am · Edited · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman FWIW, craft =/= good.
October 19 at 9:00am · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia FWIW, even bad tasting craft beer is better than anything tainted by Inbev
October 19 at 9:07am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia for those that would like to peruse:
http://www.businessweek.com/.../the-plot-to-destroy...
The Plot to Destroy America's Beer
AB InBev is gobbling up the world's beers—and drinkers aren't happy
BUSINESSWEEK.COM|BY DEVIN LEONARD
October 19 at 9:13am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill ....FWIW.... There are still no good Canadan beers, the claim "oh yes, we just don't export and keep it all in one province" somehow does not prove the existence of beer.
October 19 at 9:16am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Meh, Michael Beitia. I like Stella on occasion. Also, St. Pauli Girl and Shock Top are solid on tap.
October 19 at 9:21am · Like
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Michael Beitia nope. this is about principle. I first noticed it when I bought a 12 pack of Bass, and it tasted weird. It was brewed in New York, not England. Everything they touch they ruin (except Bud, that was always terrible).
October 19 at 9:23am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Goose Island was great before 2011.
October 19 at 9:24am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Some of my favorite beers are: Maredsous Tripel, Chimay Blue and Tripel, Stone IPA, Redhook IPA, and reccently, Birra Nursia.
October 19 at 9:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Interestingly, most of my favorite "craft" beers are from Europe.
October 19 at 9:27am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I dislike the taste of Belgian Beers (and Trappist beers) so Chimay doesn't make the list for me. I drink a lot of local craft beers here in the US. (but I enjoy Stone as well).
Like I said, this is a matter of principle. That's why I had to stop drinking RedHook.
October 19 at 9:29am · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Michael Beitia I had the same experience with Bass. It used to taste a lot better than it does now.
October 19 at 9:31am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Woah, Michael Beitia, no CBA beers either?
October 19 at 9:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman What is wrong with them?
October 19 at 9:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman CBA is like the anti AB-InBev.
October 19 at 9:32am · Edited · Like
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Daniel Lendman And yes, I know that AB-InBev owns nearly a third of CBA. But these are dark times we live in.
October 19 at 9:35am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Michael, I am relieved not to find any of my favorites on the list.
October 19 at 9:41am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe That article was terrifying! Save the hops!
October 19 at 9:46am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia nope, no CBA beers. I'm a man of inflexible principle.
October 19 at 9:53am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael, what is the principle?
October 19 at 10:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia InBev sucks. <---- that is the principle. Read the article.
October 19 at 10:00am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia off to Mass
October 19 at 10:00am · Like
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Max Summe So InBev ruined Bass? Those bastards.
October 19 at 10:07am · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman I think so, Max.
October 19 at 10:09am · Like
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Daniel Lendman But I don't think they ruined CBA beers...yet.
October 19 at 10:09am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel, I think all good North American beer is craft beer. Not all North American craft beer is good, and not all good beer is craft beer.
October 19 at 10:11am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe. I agree.
October 19 at 10:13am · Like
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Jody Haaf Garneau Wow. All night and you're still on beer? What about that new blessed Paul VI?
And Schoenborn - while I want to like him and many good people I know do like him he seems to have similar views to Kasper about communion for those who are in 2nd marriages and acceptance of "faithful" homosexual relationships. So I'm confused. Is he mis-represented? How does he square that with Catholic teaching? Is he just trying to keep the pews full?
October 19 at 10:33am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov There are some smaller breweries that were around before the "craft beer" revolution that are very good beers (Unibroue is in my mind the best) but I think the standard for good beer has really been pushed up by the craft beer makers in the States. And as a Canadian and a beer lover I can say that the States make best beer in the world right now. The diversity and quality of that the small American brewers are putting out is not matched anywhere in the world. Mainstream Canadian beer is on average better than mainstream American beer but thats not hard to do and Canadian craft beer makers suffer from the usual problem of population, we cannot make as much or as many beers as the Americans. Europe makes some great beer but the lack of exploration that is seen in North America makes it harder to cater to individual tastes.
October 19 at 10:38am · Like · 2
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Max Summe When we visited Germany I was surprised that the beer wasn't really any better than anything I could get in my own city. We really are doing pretty good making beer...
October 19 at 10:45am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe ^^^^ pure truth, Paddy McKolstoglotov
October 19 at 10:46am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Germany is also hampered by garbage purity laws
October 19 at 10:46am · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Also Paul VI beatified! That's not making much of a splash in the news for some reason.
October 19 at 10:50am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson My experience is, as Oleg said, that mainstream Canadian beer is better than mainstream American. Both sides of the border produce crap, but I find Sleeman, Alexander Keith, and Rickard's to be very good mass produced beers. And I would take those over California microbrews, actually. While I was at TAC I could not understand why people liked California microbrews so much. I always found them disgusting. I have had some good local stuff from Montana and Milwaukee, however.
As far as price goes, Canada has some major issues due to regulation, or at least that's true in Ontario. It's not like that in Quebec though.
October 19 at 11:08am · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil It's worth noting that American craft breweries have gone nuts trying to out-hop each other. Hops are fine, but things have gotten out of hand, and a lot of beers taste unbalanced because of it.
October 19 at 11:17am · Edited · Unlike · 5
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Daniel Lendman Jody, I think few people realize how difficult Schoeborn's position really is.
I don't always agree with what he says and does, but I think he is sincere in his efforts, and by and large, he does the right thing. I think he is open to theoretical possibilities, in general, and is very wary (as a good Dominican should be) of ruling out anything absolutely, until it has been absolutely proved.
October 19 at 11:17am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov Hops are an easy way to produce a stronger tasting beer. its usually a first step and then the brewery should move on. I make my own beer and IPA's are easy to make, turn out well usually and are quite appealing to many drinkers but I do agree the market is saturated.
October 19 at 11:18am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Ah, but IPAs are the best.
October 19 at 11:19am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Matthew J. Peterson, I like the updates about the topic of the current discussion... It could make things... interesting.
October 19 at 11:25am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sometimes... I think I might over-use ellipsis...
October 19 at 11:26am · Like
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Daniel Lendman ...
October 19 at 11:26am · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov IPAs are very good but I can see why they are not some peoples taste and why making too many of them can hurt the selection of other also great beers. But no more talk of beer for me, time for church.
October 19 at 11:27am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Speaking of Church, three of the last six popes have been beatified or canonized. That is interesting.
October 19 at 11:29am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joshua Kenz would know better, but I believe that Papal pronouncements on Canonizations should be understood as part of the extraordinary magisterium of the Church.
I don't know the status of beatifications.
October 19 at 11:30am · Like
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Sean Robertson Fr. Sebastian (Walshe, O. Praem.) told me that only canonizations are infallible declarations, not beatifications.
October 19 at 11:32am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Which makes sense to me, but makes me wonder about how it is then that we can have a feast day in the liturgy of one who is only beatified.
October 19 at 11:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman That is a source I trust. Fr. Sebastian Walshe is one of the finest priests I know. He likewise has a fine mind and knowledge of the Church.
October 19 at 11:34am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson ^Agreed. In my mind, he serves as pretty much the ideal model for a priest.
October 19 at 11:35am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman I knew I liked you Sean!
October 19 at 11:37am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson By the way, Daniel, knowing now that you don't look like the letter Nun, I think we may have met once. About four years ago at the Grimms' in Ojai. Does that sound right? Not that I expect you to remember me.
October 19 at 11:40am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Sean, that sounds highly likely.
October 19 at 11:46am · Like
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman What does "how difficult Schoeborn's position is" mean?
October 19 at 12:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Joel HF From my own research on the subject, by far the majority position, dating back a good ways, is that canonization is infallible. If you search the tNET archives, you can find STA's argument laid out for it.
October 19 at 12:53pm · Like
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Joel HF A minority position, which seems more likely to me (for what little that's worth), is that canonizations are not always infallible strictly speaking.
October 19 at 12:54pm · Like · 5
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Joel HF At the very least, however, it would be highly temerarious to question publicly any specific canonization.
October 19 at 12:57pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante unless one is Protestant! we have a blast with that
October 19 at 12:57pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Well, you have your own idols with clay feet
October 19 at 12:58pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante for instance I mock Peterson's canonization of Madison all the time
October 19 at 12:58pm · Like · 8
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Joel HF Per Peterson, Madison is a doctor of the church b/c he set up the church to have factions of orthodox and heterodox who would ultimately lead to the truth. This is why it is great that many synod fathers propose all but heretical teachings.
October 19 at 1:00pm · Like · 5
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Jehoshaphat Escalante uh oh Matthew might actually get fighty over that one
October 19 at 1:04pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, the Church in Austria is insanely complicated. I am sure Pater Edmund would be more in tune with the situation. However, in Austria, the danger of schism is acute.
October 19 at 1:05pm · Like
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Joel HF I'm only kidding, of course. But more seriously, is Peterson's fondness of the founders (whether for good or ill) a particularly Catholic tendency? Seems to me that isn't the case--there's a good mix of Catholics and protestants as well as other religions as well who love and revere the founders. And in some sense all Americans should love them.
October 19 at 1:05pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Daniel Lendman--what's his fear? That he will lose his position? Sorry, but while understandable I don't find Catholic prelates acting more like politicians to be particularly admirable.
October 19 at 1:07pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante it's only peculiarly Catholic in the sense that Catholics for obvious reasons have overcompensated for Know Nothingism or whatever in order to prove themselves
October 19 at 1:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Joel HF It is more complicated for Catholics for sure, though not all Catholics are even aware of that anymore.
October 19 at 1:08pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I myself revere the founders of America: the Kings of England and Spain.
October 19 at 1:08pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Well done, Escalante!
October 19 at 1:09pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman All good Catholics are monarchists.
October 19 at 1:19pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante uh oh Matthew Big Angry just called you out
October 19 at 1:21pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman No, Jehoshaphat Escalante. God has.
October 19 at 1:24pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante haha Matthew is resisting all these provocations. Doubtless he's too busy praying to his icon of Lincoln
October 19 at 1:25pm · Like · 7
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Father Abe, may the United States be one, even as You and natural law are one"
October 19 at 1:26pm · Like · 8
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Joel HF I wonder if Peterson will just update the topic to "trolling"
October 19 at 1:41pm · Like · 6
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Claire Keeler I like wheat beers and most saints.
October 19 at 1:49pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Joel, I wonder why you say that in some sense all Americans should love the Founders. I agree with Jehosphaphat that Catholics have overcompensated to prove their loyalty to the regime, but the fact that they feel this psychological pressure suggests the regime is not a friendly place for them.
October 19 at 2:08pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I want to know what "California microbrews" Sean Robertson allegedly found inferior to mainstream Canadian beer.
October 19 at 2:10pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I like a really strong hoppy IPA. As to the Founders, I like that a band of intellectuals actually accomplished something, but I think I'd rather have been founded by a crazy mythic epic hero dude.
October 19 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Now that the weather is cooling, it's time to start brewing again.
October 19 at 2:11pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple I like an IPA (or two) that's made by a brewery called Founders.
October 19 at 2:12pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Jeffrey Bond, even Socrates felt a love for Athens, despite the manifest injustice the city visited on him.
October 19 at 2:13pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I guess Sam Adams is the link between these two threads.
October 19 at 2:13pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1199/5441/
Founders Centennial IPA | Founders Brewing Company | Grand Rapids, MI
Founders Centennial IPA is a American IPA style beer...
BEERADVOCATE.COM|BY BEERADVOCATE.COM, INC. - JASON AND TODD ALSTRÖM
October 19 at 2:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Here's Sam Adam's take on why Catholics should not be tolerated: "The Roman Catholics or Papists are excluded [from toleration] by reason of such doctrines as these, that princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those that they call heretics may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the Pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of government, by introducing, as far as possible into the states under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty, and property, that solecism in politics, imperium in imperio, leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war, and bloodshed."
October 19 at 2:18pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The above charge by Adams is precisely why Kennedy had to go and lick the boots of a group of Protestant ministers to assure them that his Catholicism was a personal and private matter that would not interfere with his political decisions.
October 19 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Kennedy "had" to do that?
October 19 at 2:22pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Last I checked, most of Europe hated Catholicism back in the day too. "Well, these tribes are all pagan so I guess we should go back to Rome. Stupid tribal chieftains and Kings. Wretched culture. Can't win."
October 19 at 2:23pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Joel, Socrates loved the Athenians, to be sure, but he did not love the particular regime under which he lived. He clearly felt no love for the Thirty Tyrants who tried to implicate him in their evil acts.
October 19 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I don't know if Kennedy had to do it, but he clearly felt he had to.
October 19 at 2:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Would Kennedy have been elected if he had not affirmed the necessary private/public split? I doubt it. It has been the hallmark of every "successful" Catholic politician since his time.
October 19 at 2:27pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Y'all might want to make more direct claims about the form or structure of our regime as fundamentally unjust - that seems to be the underlying claim, or the most significant one.
October 19 at 2:28pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I agree with Sam Adams in principle; the Constitution was too vague and weak
October 19 at 2:29pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Certainly JFK would have had a difficult time without addressing the issue. I imagine he could have gone a different route and won. Others have since. But fair enough.
October 19 at 2:29pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Perhaps we could all agree with JPII's observation during his first pastoral visit to the United States: "How then can a Christian, inspired and guided by the mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption of Christ, strengthen his or her own values and those that are embodied in the heritage of this nation? The answer to that question, in order to be complete, would have to be long." Long, indeed.
October 19 at 2:30pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman, the common opinion is that canonizations are infallible. It is not a dogma, but a pious belief (per Aquinas) and I wouldn't call it an extraordinary act of the magisterium. The infallibility, at least in my understanding based on Aquinas and others who have argued it, is not directly in the statement of fact...the pope is incompetent to infallibly judge who is holier than who, and such matters. But rather based on the indefectibility of the Church's worship.
Which raises a doubt about most modern canonizations being infallible. It is the actual veneration by a moral unanimity in the Church, in her liturgy, that demands, if anything does, infallibility. But most saints are never so honored (as most = those canonized by JPII)
So arguably such have the same "fallible status" of beati.
October 19 at 2:32pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson's running CURRENT TOPIC updates just jumped to my #1 favorite thing about tNET.
October 19 at 2:32pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia IPAs are the best. Hops are best if added on top of hops.
October 19 at 2:33pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Dogfish Head makes the best IPAs
October 19 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe You are wrong and Catherine is right. It is definitely possible to overdo hops.
October 19 at 2:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Revolution Brewing is the best. simply
October 19 at 2:36pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and Monarchy is stupid
October 19 at 2:36pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil If I never had another IPA again it would be too soon.
October 19 at 2:37pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia you haven't had RevBrew. mmmmmm..... tasty
October 19 at 2:38pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley Lately, though, I've been preferring porters and stouts.
October 19 at 2:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond With respect to Matthew's suggestion above, namely, that direct claims be made about the form or structure of our regime as fundamentally unjust, I do not think either is fundamentally unjust. My problem with Madison, as you know, has to do with the spirit that animates the founding of the regime, not with three branches of government or checks and balances per se. I do, however, think the First Amendment is an affront to God.
October 19 at 2:38pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Hops aren't even essential to beer. Originally Ales had no hops...hops meant lager, back in the day.
Ever had a grute beer?
October 19 at 2:40pm · Like
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Adam Woodward Two months and it's still going!? Someone needs to call up the Guinness Book of World Records!
October 19 at 2:42pm · Like
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Michael Beitia yes I have. I just like hoppy bitter beer. I also like single malts from Islay, and black coffee
October 19 at 2:42pm · Unlike · 1
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Edward Langley Some of the most interesting beers I've had are the ones that use "alternative" yeasts.
October 19 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Edward Langley Daniel Lendman's reaction when I sprung one upon him was priceless.
October 19 at 2:43pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I like salty snacks, not sweet ones two, I'm a Leo and I like long walks on the beach
October 19 at 2:43pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Mmmmmmm....bitter
October 19 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Christopher Wolfe My grandfather John Patrick O'Hare left the Democratic party after the speech to the Houston Baptist convention. Prior to that he had actually done stump speeches for Kennedy across he state of Texas.
It should be noted, I think, that the heretical view that one can separate personal beliefs from ones' political actions (and not be personally responsible) has been a creed of Democratic Catholic politicians almost exclusively. Mario Cuomo is the worst example of this heresy, of course. Very few Republican Catholic politicians would explicitly claim it (even if they might presuppose it in their actions)
October 19 at 2:44pm · Like · 4
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Edward Langley "That the others are incidental[ly pleasant] is indicated by the fact that men do not enjoy the same pleasant objects when their nature is in its settled state as they do when it is being replenished, but in the former case they enjoy the things that are pleasant without qualification, in the latter the contraries of these as well; for then they enjoy even sharp and bitter things, none of which is pleasant either by nature or without qualification.
October 19 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil I like bitter things, too. Like Campari, or Cynar. I do not like IPAs.
October 19 at 2:45pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil ^Behold, a lurker!
October 19 at 2:45pm · Like · 6
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Christopher Wolfe Bishop Chaput's book on this subject is quite good. As the readings for today say, "Render unto Caesar"
http://www.amazon.com/Render.../dp/0385522290/ref=sr_1_1...
Render Unto Caesar: Serving the Nation by Living Our Catholic Beliefs in Political...
AMAZON.COM
October 19 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia Edward, I also like things so spicy I hallucinate
October 19 at 2:46pm · Like · 5
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Edward Langley I'm with you, Michael Beitia
October 19 at 2:47pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Cuomo was the worst, and publicly rebuked by Archbishop O'Connor at the time who warned him that he was risking Hell. The NYC papers had a field day with that one.
October 19 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond But I don't see a big difference between the Demon-rats and the Republi-cants on this question, however. Whom do you have in mind, Christopher Wolfe?
October 19 at 2:52pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia republocrats
October 19 at 2:50pm · Like
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Edward Langley Serious question: if one is "buzzed", should one wait for it to pass before starting the family Rosary?
October 19 at 2:52pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I'm going to take a pass on that one
October 19 at 2:52pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Bit early in the day to be buzzed, Edward Langley
October 19 at 2:54pm · Unlike · 4
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Edward Langley I'm not, I was just wondering this the other evening.
October 19 at 2:55pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman Joel HF, the fear is losing souls.
October 19 at 2:55pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't see how the First Amendment is an affront to God.
From the Gospels, the disunity that the First Amendment is a more than plausible response to does indeed seem to constitute such an affront, however.
October 19 at 3:00pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Daniel Lendman You are right in saying Prague is awesome. One of the best things about it is the beer. And nary an over-hopped, over-hyped American IPA in sight.
October 19 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Julie O'Reilly boom!
October 19 at 3:04pm · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman The greatest fault of European beers is that they don't do IPAs.
October 19 at 3:04pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF Plus one to what my better half said.
October 19 at 3:04pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil The food is good, too, as long as you're on board with "hearty" and "brown".
October 19 at 3:05pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Lo, another Lurker?!?
October 19 at 3:05pm · Like · 5
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Daniel Lendman Catherine, we had a great goulash!
October 19 at 3:06pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Matthew J. Peterson I think your topic headings are really reeling them in.
October 19 at 3:06pm · Like · 4
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Daniel Lendman Matthew, "weirdom"?
October 19 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, the best beer I ever had was in my youth in Munich. But was the beer really that good, or was it my youth and the beauty of the surroundings and the goodness of the people and the savoriness of the food? Who can say? But I doubt l'll find such pleasure again.
October 19 at 3:10pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman ...at least not in beer, Joel HF... or so I hope.
October 19 at 3:09pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Just so everyone's clear, Joel HF is not buzzed in the mid-afternoon, either.
October 19 at 3:10pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia I'd like a clearer statement re: first amendment vs. religion from either of the principal defenders/aggressors here
October 19 at 3:10pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia secondly, I blame Austria
October 19 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and Prague
October 19 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil ^For what?
October 19 at 3:12pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil For derailing the conversation?
October 19 at 3:13pm · Like
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Michael Beitia why Mexican music sounds like Polka, and why their beer sucks
October 19 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia stupid Hapsburgs
October 19 at 3:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that's my job
October 19 at 3:14pm · Like
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Brian Kemple I don't understand all this negativity towards being buzzed in the mid afternoon. Especially on a Sunday.
October 19 at 3:18pm · Unlike · 4
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Michael Beitia I just cracked my first one
October 19 at 3:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley ^ Yeah, Puritanical American taboos.
October 19 at 3:18pm · Like
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Edward Langley I still have to get to Mass, though
October 19 at 3:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Rosary at nine this morning, Mass at ten, I'm good to go
October 19 at 3:19pm · Like · 1
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Edward Langley My daily schedule makes events before noon difficult.
October 19 at 3:20pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Pater Edmund looooooves the Hapsburgs.
October 19 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Re the First Amendment, the first question to be addressed, it seems to me, is this: Do we agree that it belongs to the state by nature to concern itself with the general welfare of its people?
October 19 at 3:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I know, Samantha, I was fishing......
October 19 at 3:22pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey, so we're all on the same page:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
October 19 at 3:23pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and if I may go out on a limb, just re-reading it, it seems the most important aspect of the text is the "grievances" part
October 19 at 3:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond My problem is with the establishment clause.
October 19 at 3:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think that is subordinate to the grievances, in fact, I think they all are
October 19 at 3:27pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson That's your problem, but you have no solution and you refuse to offer one.
October 19 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please explain, Michael Beitia
October 19 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Easy, Matthew. We haven't even set out the problem yet.
October 19 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I think understanding it as a check against the tyranny of the masses is key.
There is no laws w/r/t:
1 religion
2 press
3 speech
4 assembly
all of them are ordered toward not having the tyranny of the majority
October 19 at 3:29pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Uh, Matthew J. Peterson? The intro text got messed up somehow. Can't you maintain your misbegotten child to a reasonable standard?
October 19 at 3:29pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I think the founders were worried about tyranny from either the government or from the people.
October 19 at 3:31pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Of the two, tyrannical government seems to be the greater concern. Or is that what you meant by "tyranny of the masses"?
October 19 at 3:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think anyone here doesn't understand the problem. The question is what you do on your own grounds in the wake of religious wars and various sects on the ground.
We've heard the problem at length. We hear it all the time in these circles. But it's all fringe-oid talk if it never deals with reality as it is and was and never offers solutions.
October 19 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia tyranny of the masses: populist laws passed
October 19 at 3:33pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think if we read it as a check on tyranny, most objections disappear
October 19 at 3:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia unless we like tyranny
October 19 at 3:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Catherine Joliat Feil: am I my TNET's keeper?
October 19 at 3:36pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I'm all for discussing things in light of reality. That is precisely why I thought we should proceed systematically to see where our thoughts diverge. Otherwise we simply set assertion against assertion without discovering the foundations of the disagreement. I don't see why I have to propose a solution to a problem that has not yet been identified. But if you would prefer to set forth the problem that everyone agrees with and has been heard over and over again, that would be fine by me. Then I could see if I agree with your formulation of the problem.
October 19 at 3:37pm · Like
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Claire Keeler This constantly updated subtitle reminds me of that one skit in a Bit of Frye & Laurie.... I will try to find it
October 19 at 3:37pm · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler by the way, I went to early Sunday Mass at TAC straight from the Pit once. I didn't realize I was still buzzed till I tried to kneel down with all the good people and I got the spins. I felt terrible. I ducked outta there and went to the Mexican Mass that evening in town
October 19 at 3:38pm · Unlike · 5
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Claire Keeler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFD01r6ersw
A Bit of Fry and Laurie...Tricky Linguistics
hello we're talking about language today...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 19 at 3:40pm · Like · 3
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Claire Keeler "And by demagoguery you mean...?" "I mean demagoguery." "Yes, I thought so."
October 19 at 3:46pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia tNET reminds me more of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUvmZWf4hI
WKUK Gallon of PCP
Whitest Kids U' Know Season 1 Episode 5 Clip 5
YOUTUBE.COM
October 19 at 3:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You disagree with a law passed by human beings at a specific place and time for reasons that are readily available to all - voluminous texts, known history.
You oppose this law based on philosophic/theological principle.
Yet you refuse to discuss the circumstances within which it was passed and the reasons given and what ought to be done or what ought to have been done in those circumstances.
When we know that your ideal was not possible at the time.
October 19 at 3:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As to Mike's general point: the Constitution is an explicit effort to add an aristocratic element to counter and better shape might/majority-makes-right democracy.
October 19 at 3:56pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Perhaps the ideal was not possible at the time, but I think we disagree about the ideal, do we not? Or do you merely defend the First Amendment on a conditional and practical basis?
October 19 at 3:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I thought the constitution was a piece of Masonic propaganda, aimed at the destruction of all that is good? I think you misread me Matt
October 19 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew, IF your defense of the First Amendment is merely conditional and practical, then do you agree that the State by nature must concern itself with the general welfare of the people? And IF you agree to that first principle, then would you further agree that, although the State does not have as its immediate end the spiritual welfare of the people (which is the direct concern of the Church), nonetheless the State has the natural common good as its end, and that it cannot pursue this end unless it concerns itself with the supernatural end of man? In other words, the State does not have man's salvation as its end properly and simply, but the State does have as its end the ordering of natural affairs with an eye to the supernatural life. (Note that none of these questions concern any particular circumstances, yet these questions, as I see it, must be addressed first if one is to examine in an orderly way any particular regime at any particular time.)
October 19 at 4:08pm · Like · 2
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John FitzGerald Claire Keeler: with regard to your inadvertent attempt at buzzed participation in the Mass, I offer a thought. One that is perhaps too deep for tNET. Not all of us drink because we're poets. Some of us drink because we're not poets. (Dudley Moore, Arthur, 1980.) I think that so long as one goes to Mass with the right heart, the fact that his reason may be impaired will take care of itself. To attend Mass in a fallen condition is perfectly consistent with being fallen in the first place, is it not?
October 19 at 4:18pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff Bond can you give me the citation for the Adams quote?
October 19 at 4:25pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In the abstract, I think all of that is true. In fact, I think everyone should admit it true in the abstract whether or not they believe in God. Human beings can't avoid considering government in the way you speak of even when they claim and seek not to.
October 19 at 4:25pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Is it okay to smoke while you're praying?
October 19 at 4:27pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Yes, as long as you call it praying while smoking.
October 19 at 4:28pm · Like · 6
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Jeffrey Bond Jehoshaphat, the Sam Adams quote is from his "Report of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting," November 20, 1772.
October 19 at 4:28pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson But as it turns out, people disagree as to the ultimate end. The more they agree, the higher the common good we tie to the regime.
Early Puritan colonies are a great example. Perfectly democratic, and very stringent laws that shock pretty much everyone today - or even Tocqueville's time.
Same with Sparta. A thick notion of the common good there.
October 19 at 4:28pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff, perfect, thanks
October 19 at 4:29pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Adams no likey the caddillicks. He was a very Tom Paine-ish fellow rhetorically too, despite his desire for a "Christian Sparta" and common good mentions. He soaked up the rhetoric of modernity (Locke!) far more deeply than many others.
He as an activist though, above all. A rabble rouser. Not one of the more thoughtful of that generation, but a piratical operative who even in retrospect is a amusing to watch.
October 19 at 4:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Adams' statement as quoted is just straight Protestant political theology
October 19 at 4:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Where I would disagree with Jeff Bond is in his claim that somehow that Protestant political theology got really established in the Constitution; I wish it had, but it certainly did not
October 19 at 4:35pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Hold on. I gotta go call the Pope to know what I should say next...
October 19 at 4:37pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Adams actually cites Locke in that Report. But I agree his position is essentially Protestant. As for the Constitution, I think it is more Lockean than Protestant, though the two dovetail in certain respects.
October 19 at 4:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Locke was a straight Protestant on this matter, and I think in general; the newer scholarship goes in that direction and I agree with it
October 19 at 4:37pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You do not believe in the God of Surprises, Matthew?
October 19 at 4:38pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante The Constitution presumes Protestant political theology, but doesn't explicitly mention its principles; this makes it deeply ambiguous in certain respects
October 19 at 4:39pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hence its wax-nosey character ever after
October 19 at 4:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. And Locke certainly speaks the language of Protestantism, but I have my doubts about how seriously he embraced it.
October 19 at 4:39pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think he was pretty sincere, and can make a case for it. The man on this right now is Eric Nelson
October 19 at 4:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond A Letter on Toleration, for example, employs Protestant categories of interpretation, but the argument stands on its own quite apart from embracing Protestantism (or any other religion).
October 19 at 4:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think the argument of De T finally doesn't stand on its own, actually, though it can seem to if you dont push far enough
October 19 at 4:43pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yah, I'm not convinced as to Locke's faith.
Regardless, it is important to understand how early Americans understood him. I believe most American's knew Locke through his Reasonableness of Christianity, which was a bestseller.
The intellectuals in America where a bit torn on him as Scottish enlightenment people disagreed with his epistemology and the schools here were not as modern in their curriculum as all that.
October 19 at 4:45pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Please explain.
October 19 at 4:43pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew are you into the theses of the guys at Nomocracy?
October 19 at 4:44pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff, I mean the argument works mostly from prudence, but there are assumptions involved about the good and the bad which are finally theological in nature
October 19 at 4:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Which ones?
October 19 at 4:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson What theses? Looked at them a while back but never followed up.
October 19 at 4:47pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeff: coercability of conscience
Matt: their big thesis is that a modern State can only have a very very thin common good, and that law as guardian of the no-harm rule is what we have to camp out on
October 19 at 4:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I guess I do not see why that notion is essentially theological in Locke. Why couldn't a non-believer embrace the same ideal?
October 19 at 4:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The same issue arises for many religious Americans in the founding era, who agreed with Toleration and the first amendment for religious reasons.
October 19 at 4:55pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Gents I must be off but this is of interest on the topic of Locke in general (though it doesnt deal with conscience and toleration):
http://eppc.org/.../were-john-locke-and-the-founders.../
Were John Locke and the Founders "Lockeans"—or Scholastics? - Ethics &...
EPPC.ORG
October 19 at 4:59pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond So, Matthew, based on your earlier comment above, we are agreed in the abstract concerning the nature of government and the relationship of Church and State. Excellent. I would therefore assume we also agree that the pursuit of virtue belongs properly to the State, and that man's highest natural virtue is the contemplation God, for all the other natural virtues are ordered to this highest one. Yes?
October 19 at 5:00pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Good to see you healthy and robust, TNET - I went kamping this weekend.
October 19 at 5:03pm · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler Conal Tanner, author and performer of that GREAT skit: "I am French; I smoke in church", actually DID smoke at Mass now & then because he went to the short-lived Sunday evening Mass and stayed outside the back of the chapel.
October 19 at 5:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict "Sausages?"
October 19 at 5:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Now, IF you agree with my latest statement above, then would you agree that to say that the State should concern itself with the economy, war, and road building, but leave religion and speculative truth to the private sphere alone, would be to eliminate the specifically political character of the State? We know, for example, that Aristotle (whom I am following here) holds that a group held together by military and commercial relations, but not by the common pursuit of virtue, is an alliance, not a political community. If we agree with that distinction, then it follows that the State, given its specifically political nature, cannot push to the side problems or questions of religion. Do you agree?
October 19 at 5:11pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Assuming we have agreement on what has been stated above, then we should consider the First Amendment under the light of the principles that have been set down. (We are not yet considering, then, whether prudence would require, based on the special circumstances of the time, some less than ideal application of these principles to the American founding. I am operating on the assumption that you agree that the First Amendment is not ideal, but can only be defended conditionally and practically, though I am not sure if you actually assented to that part of my formulations at the beginning of this discussion.)
October 19 at 5:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I have to go for now, but I will try to check back later to see where we are on this question of the First Amendment.
October 19 at 5:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia hang on, I have maintained repeatedly on tNET (and in real life) that the American regime does not correspond to the Aristotelian 'polis'. in fact, the American regime should be considered an alliance (originally) This is manifest since the original Senators were appointed by state legislature, which is again from the localities.
the first Amendment (and a fortiori, the whole Constitution) should be understood as an agreement in that way. Didn't it come to be because of intra-state trade?
October 19 at 5:33pm · Like
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Christopher Wolfe Michael, not sure if the indirect election of senators (until the 17th Amendment) really proves your point that "the American regime should be considered an alliance", all your evidence really shows is that our gvt. is partly federal. It is also partly national, however. Check Federalist 39, yo. "The proposed Constitution, therefore, [even when tested by the rules laid down by its antagonists] is, in strictness, neither a national nor a federal Constitution, but a composition of both."
I do agree with your other point that "the American regime does not correspond to the Aristotelian polis". Of course our regime doesn't correspond to the polis; most societies in Western Civilization since the polis have been MUCH more heterogeneous than the poloi were, so they're gonna be different
October 19 at 5:52pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "the State should concern itself with the economy, war, and road building, but leave religion and speculative truth to the private sphere alone, would be to eliminate the specifically political character of the State?"
Yes and no. Because all those things are ordered to higher things, and without those lower things, yah got no community at ALL. NONE. Not only are all those lower things necessary sine qua nons, but they CANNOT really be cut off from the higher notions at play even if one tries. Yet again, of course, human beings disagree radically even with homogeneous groups about what is true and false and about religion, of course. And meanwhile, folks gots to eat.
Further, the statement above is manifestly NOT what ANYONE thought during the founding era. A cursory examination of the laws and the state Constitutions and even the federal constitution, never mind the 10th amendment, etc. would reveal this.
But even further, of course, NO ONE EVER THOUGHT THAT ANYTHING LIKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD PERFORM ALL THE FUNCTIONS OF GOVERNMENT THROUGH AND THROUGH, EVER. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CRAY CRAY.
Not Aristotle, not Madison, not Aquinas, not FDR, not Barak Obama.
But yet the federal government DOES INDEED legislate about virtue and morality to some extent, and always has. But here I am talking about actual examples again...
October 19 at 6:24pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Christopher, what I mean by "alliance" is that looser federal system where the local informs the federal, specifically distinguished from the Aristotelian polis that is homogeneous, each community is more like the polis than the whole.
October 19 at 5:57pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As Peter Berkowitz says:
"It is common for contemporary scholars to ascribe to Aristotle, without
qualification, the view that the aim of political life is to promote human
excellence and perfect citizens. This, however, is an unfortunate
oversimplification, one that encourages many liberals in their determination to view Aristotle as irrelevant or hostile to their concerns. [AND ONE THAT, I MIGHT ADD, EMBOLDENS ABSTRACT AND CARTOON CRITIQUES OF LIBERALISM in airy conservative great books world] It is true that Aristotle asserts in the Ethics that the "true statesman" must study virtue so as to be able to make citizens good. But what he makes clear in the Politics is that true statesmen are at best seldom at the helm and very few..."
Berkowitz continues on to describe how Aristotle argues that various regime forms tend to corrupt in peculiar ways, and Aristotle’s political science suggests a prudent moderation is required in each form in a manner that mitigates its particular form of corruption. Thus, in democracies, aristocratic modes are necessary to moderate excessive democracy. As Robert Sokolowski says:
"It should be noted that in his discussion of the republic in Politics 4.7-9, Aristotle does not claim that the republic as such promotes virtue or nobility; he presents it rather as a resolution of the parallelogram of political forces, in which the interests of both poor and the rich are best reconciled. The two groups are blended into a middle class that will rule through the laws for the advantage of the whole. Virtue as the overriding end of the republican city will arise through that city’s participation in aristocracy…"
Further, “aristocracy exists either when the virtuous rule because of their virtue (the virtuous become the establishment, the politeuma),
or when whoever is ruling exercises his or their rule for the sake of
what is best for the city and its members. Because of this second definition of aristocracy, there can be an aristocratic component to every form of constitution, including a republic. ”
Thomas Hibbs describes Aristotle and Thomas moving in a progression towards the common good:
“The discussion of the polis moves from its universal utility to its nobility.
The education and expansion of natural desires move beyond self-interest narrowly construed to the recognition of goods held in common.”[ii] Aristotle and Thomas do not understand the basic needs, the self-love, or the distinct interest of each person to be an evil, but rather a starting point. “The legislator’s art does not eradicate natural motives and attachments, but moves the individual from the private and narrow bounds of self-interest to a gradual appreciation of the
common good.”[iii]
[i] Peter Berkowitz's "Virtue and the Making of Modern Liberalism"
[ii] Sokolowksi, 511n12, The Human Person and Political Life, The Thomist
[iii] Sokolowski, 512-513, The Thomist “The Human Person and Political Life”,referring to Politics 3.7 1279a35-37
October 19 at 6:38pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We can agree on all these abstract statements of political philosophy, but what they mean and how they are applied is always the question.
Generally in conservative great books land the best of ancient Greek theory is trotted out to judge modern practice with little consideration of reality on the ground in any time or place. The politics part of the Politics is ignored, etc.
October 19 at 6:13pm · Like
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Patricia Ferri Rodrigue missed the whole round on Canadian literature about 20 hours ago due to driving back from Florida... probably for the best.. buuuut really have to mention a few: Yaan Martel : Author: Life of Pi, Malcolm Gladwell: The Outliers; Alice Munro won Nobel Prize for her short stories. Don't really like her, but Margaret Atwood is very famous as is Michael Ondaatje, Author, The English Patient.... and I could go on. Carry on
October 19 at 6:14pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau I didn't defend Canadian novels because, well, I'd rather defend Canadian beer (even though I don't drink). Other than Anne of Green Gables, most Canadian books aren't worth reading. Margaret Atwood? That was a special type of suffering.
October 19 at 6:23pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau Farley Mowat. You didn't mention him.
October 19 at 6:24pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Matthew J. Peterson " Last I checked, most of Europe hated Catholicism back in the day too. "Well, these tribes are all pagan so I guess we should go back to Rome. Stupid tribal chieftains and Kings. Wretched culture. Can't win." "
Last I checked it was the countries not subject to the Romans that became protestant! Coincidence?
I think the 1st amendment can be defended on pragmatic grounds, given the circumstances of America. I think even incorporating it against the states (which originally could retain established churches) can be so justified. The only issue is when some people ideologize the American constitution and make such civil rights into absolute natural rights. But that raises the question of founding justice on rights in the first place, which is another sticky point here. The real problematic character of the 1st amendment, and many other laws, is the fact that law is a teacher, it is pedagogical. And while I cannot think of something better to replace the 1st amendment, given our current circumstances, that imbuing it as a doctrine of human rights, as it were, I think is to be guarded against.
Kennedy went too far, as have subsequent Catholics who have refused to "impose morality" But there is a tight rope to be walked for an American Catholic politician.
October 19 at 6:28pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Joshua, France, Northern Italy, Bohemia, Hungary, and Slovenia- all in the old Roman Empire- would all have gone majority Protestant, given the rates of growth, had the Protestants not been massacred. England did go Protestant, and most of it had been in the Roman Empire. So that old Bellocian canard about wild Nordicdom being the soil of Protestantism is bellocshit, if I might coin a phrase
October 19 at 6:33pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Joshua Kenz I was being tongue in cheek. I almost put except the Hugenots, Hussites, etc but that would have been to dilute the humor.
October 19 at 6:36pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but yeah that was a bad analogy from Matthew "Seek the Common 'Okay' " Peterson
October 19 at 6:38pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "On the Common Meh of an Alliance Being the Best We Can Come Up With", a treatise by Matthew J. Peterson
October 19 at 6:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson No, that wasn't a bad analogy at all. It was a rather pointless prodding to hear what people actually think and to determine whether or not they are simply naysaying or not.
A lot of these complaints come down to: America WAS PROTESTANT. Um. Yes. That's true. Very well. The tribes in France were pagan.
But I forgot - the point in these discussion is often to make everyone feel peachy about inevitable decline from the pedestal of abstraction.
October 19 at 6:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, I'm NOT the one who refuses to talk about the best we can actually come up with.
October 19 at 6:42pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I talk about the best we can come up with all the time!
October 19 at 6:42pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, you do.
October 19 at 6:43pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Well considering the cause you attributed to the failure of France, Bohemia, etc not becoming protestant, you would have either hated or liked the original illiberal post I was going to write due to its similar nature.
ideally we would gain enough numbers to, at the very least, take the good states (California) and exile the protestants to less desirable states, and through attrition wear them down. Too many to have auto-da-fé for all of them.
October 19 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^paging Samuel Adams!
October 19 at 6:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia clearly the principles in the abstract have been applied excellently, right Dr. Petersongloss? from the boogy-man of Madison to the tyranny of Lincoln?
October 19 at 6:45pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I have to say I'm really proud of coining "bellocshit"
October 19 at 6:46pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson It was hard enough to get the Constitution passed as it was. Madison and the gang would have loved a bit more: his real problem wasn't merely the weakness of the Articles but shoddily run democratic majorities in the states, and he wanted the feds to have a veto power over any state law whatsoever. But that wasn't going to happen.
But again, getting into such details is rather a waste of time.
Any establishment at the federal level would have clearly sunk the whole project. They could have added some neat perfunctory language, but it would have been language only.
October 19 at 6:47pm · Edited · Like
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Kevin Gallagher See: the founders clearly believed in natura pura
October 19 at 6:47pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson And I would love to hear from our Aristotle lovers about what you all would propose the federal government do - and how it ought to be structured differently - in order to promote that virtue everyone loves to rail on about.
October 19 at 6:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Now whether that was tongue in cheek or serious, well those who know me best could say!
In the meantime I think we are relegated to doing things the slow way...like the portable chapels on trucks the Dominicans had in the US south. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from Mormons, only be less manipulative/annoying with it.
October 19 at 6:48pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Kevin Gallagher, is this the de Lubac Natura pure = secularism angle?
October 19 at 6:48pm · Like
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Kevin Gallagher It is the "let's talk about everyone's hobbyhorses at once" angle
October 19 at 6:49pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Peterson, it can't work. the federal government is too leviathan for virtue to be the aim. All it can provide is a free space within which local communities can promote virtue
October 19 at 6:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson THAT IS MY POINT, although it is not absolutely true. Again, I want ONE. ONE IDEA. ONE REALISTIC THOUGHT. About how the federal government SHOULD HAVE BEEN OR SHOULD BE structured to promote virtue.
October 19 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "Um, well, if everyone believed what I do..."
October 19 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Kevin Gallagher #STILLWAITING
October 19 at 6:51pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson "Um, well, if I had all the power and could force everyone to believe what I do..."
October 19 at 6:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia could have been a theocracy.....
October 19 at 6:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "Um, well, everything sucks..."
October 19 at 6:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #needscharts
October 19 at 6:52pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Well, I'm not waiting. There is nothing to wait for.
October 19 at 6:52pm · Like
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Kevin Gallagher We are the ones we've been waiting for
October 19 at 6:53pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson You either convince a majority by hook or by crook OR you change the form of the regime. Maybe you make it smaller. Maybe a monarchy. Whatever. Whatever floats the idealistic boat.
October 19 at 6:54pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson As soon as one takes action, however, the tune will change. Promoting virtue? Heh. Better tame the demos and the oligarchy alike. How to do that? Prolly gotta play em off each other prudently.
October 19 at 6:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Dare I say something so ignoble.
October 19 at 6:56pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz Matthew J. Peterson, Aristotle wrote of city states, even as they were being eclipsed in his own day, no?
The question of how to translate those principles to a much larger entity, well I wonder if Aristotle had even gone that far (it would have been an issue confronting him). I would say that, at the very least, the principles embodied in his Politics, he thought as inherent in Politics, if best discerned in city states rather than bigger entities.
But Aquinas has a vision, no? Regardless of how you interpret him, multi-level government, elected aristocracy, monarchy at the head.
If we apply this to the Federal government, oh impatient one, I think a more explicit safeguard of the role of States could have been provided. E.g., while the articles of confederation would never have worked, it can be argued that the virtually unlimited power of taxation and regulation of interstate commerce (which in SCOTUS eyes includes everything almost), one could have delineated a more specific reliance on the states to collect taxes, and a narrower grant to the Federal government. Also, a longer term in the House would have been good...2 years encourages, in the end, the pandering we get...you are constantly campaigning, not actually caring about the good of the country.
And the 17th amendment should go.
October 19 at 6:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia well, as you are an avowed Lincolnist, I suspect no less...
October 19 at 6:58pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson OK, THANK YOU FOR A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE. Mr. Joshua Kenz.
October 19 at 6:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe No time to read all the political stuff, but Trish Ferri Rodrigue-- Alice Monroe was given an honorable mention on tNET (by me). Ondaatje, we decided, shouldn't really count as Canadian, and frankly I didn't mention Yann Martel out of kindness.
October 19 at 7:01pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer OT: Matthew J. Peterson, the current topic thing is very helpful
October 19 at 7:01pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Somebody tag Trish, I can't
October 19 at 7:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, the federal government does indeed have all manner of laws relating to virtue on the books. But - turns out - a lot of folks no likey these laws. But let's ignore that. In our fantasy world, things would be different. But we can't tell others exactly how it work...
October 19 at 7:03pm · Like
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John Boyer The only things I think would promote virtue would be legislation rather than structure.
October 19 at 7:03pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Samantha Cohoe wants to tag you Patricia Ferri Rodrigue - see above.
October 19 at 7:04pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz It is hard of course to see a fundamentally different constitution that would be better both in ideal and for the US, and could have been accepted by the country. Even the US Constitution was only begrudgingly accepted in some corners (Whiskey Rebellion).
I think if we want a better regime, we have a very tough road ahead. Short of bloody revolution, which would likely not be in our favor, the road is very long too.
But I think the idealism you are dissing on is a necessary thing, one must know the ideal in some way. Yeah you can get your head stuck in the clouds, but it may be worse to have it stuck in the muck of pragmatism...better to have a firm footing in the real world, but the head looking to the clouds. Juggling both is the trick.
And since I am starting to wax Chestertonian, I think I need to eat something...must be low blood sugar.
October 19 at 7:04pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Federal drug laws. Laws about abortion. Marriage. Tons of laws and regulations and funding effecting all manner of matters relating to how people habitually live their lives. Sure, there's not established religion. But someone's religion is constantly attempting to establish itself informally through that structure, whether they think they have a religion or not.
October 19 at 7:05pm · Like
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John Boyer But to go beyond the clouds and actually effect change requires some roadmap
October 19 at 7:06pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Hell, Title IX administrators right now have to be informed of sexual harassment and assault on the campus I am writing from regardless of what a student says in confidence to me about the matter. Sure sounds like the feds are concerned about virtue to me.
October 19 at 7:07pm · Edited · Like
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Joshua Kenz Is there someone I cannot see?
October 19 at 7:07pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Where's you're problem, people? Plenty of virtue formation going on.
October 19 at 7:08pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Matthew why you so salty
October 19 at 7:08pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nah, he's just ranting
October 19 at 7:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Joshua Kenz: my crazed mind is not directly viewable.
October 19 at 7:08pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm grading.
October 19 at 7:08pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And I've had this discussion so many times with so many people and it always goes the same way.
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Jody Haaf Garneau What did teachers do to distract themselves while grading before Facebook?
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia drug laws are about $
abortion laws about $
marriage laws (you guessed it) about $
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI
Animal House: Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
YOUTUBE.COM
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And all sides are flawed.
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I think Matthew J. Peterson is equating virtue with $
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer End of the clip is my attitude here.
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And it's not dark yet, but it's getting there.
October 19 at 7:09pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz One could say some of the "virtue" the Feds are trying to instill via law, is vice. Look at what they did to Arcadia High School. The Justice Department was concerned with its own "morality" there. Wrongly morality, but morality nonetheless
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Right. So we need a country in which its not all about $.
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like
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John Boyer Drug laws aren't truly aimed at virtue; they're aimed at getting rid of drugs.
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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Patricia Ferri Rodrigue now you can tag me, Samantha
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Or that's what they become
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson And most of my pals on FB are just not really political types.
October 19 at 7:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Drug laws are about $$$
October 19 at 7:11pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, yes. So what would a law that seeks to make people moderate look like?
October 19 at 7:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Laws can't reach into souls and form them, no doubt.
October 19 at 7:11pm · Like
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John Boyer To me, there is a combination of law and culture. A culture of shame. Dirty dirty shame.
October 19 at 7:11pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia more like a doughnut on a stick....
October 19 at 7:12pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer We're just controlling the slide right now, to the extent that we are controlling anything.
October 19 at 7:12pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So you say, Beitia. But my point stands in that the feds can do all kinds of things in relation to virtue.
October 19 at 7:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Dr. Petersongloss, there aren't any laws that make people good.
October 19 at 7:13pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia allow a free space within which to pursue virtue, that's about all
October 19 at 7:13pm · Like
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Patricia Ferri Rodrigue glad you mentioned Munro, don't know why you wouldn't consider Ondaajte as Canadian since he clearly did and I do really like Life of Pi. though I haven't read a lot of his other stuff.
October 19 at 7:14pm · Like
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Patricia Ferri Rodrigue but again, Im late to the party on this
October 19 at 7:14pm · Like
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John Boyer I am not an environmentalist and don't like being told I should recycle etc, but the feds have done a fair job indoctrinati--I mean instilling the secular virtue of caring about the earth. Although since it's mostly political maneuvering, as far as I can tell, to justify more and more egregious gov't control over our lives, I don't think this fits the mold necessarily.
October 19 at 7:15pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Laws are like the bumpers in bumper bowling.
October 19 at 7:15pm · Like
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John Boyer You mean they're bullshit and for children and not grown men?
October 19 at 7:16pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia laws are more like the mirrors in a mirror maze, ruining the beauty of an empty warehouse
October 19 at 7:16pm · Like
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John Boyer Anarcho-capitalism now?
October 19 at 7:17pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson At best, they are like the bumpers in bumper bowling.
October 19 at 7:17pm · Like
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John Boyer Or do you want a city of pigs, Michael?
October 19 at 7:17pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia laws are like owls.
they have the same number of consonants and vowels
October 19 at 7:18pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, the government has instilled all manner of virtues, or values as we say, throughout the nation at all levels fairly well. I don't see the constitutive form of the regime as inherently problematic.
October 19 at 7:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia let me just say it again:
#perpetualrevolutiongnosis
October 19 at 7:19pm · Like · 3
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Christopher Wolfe Just an observation: all the potential Constitutional changes that have been mentioned so far in this discussion (throwing out the 17th amendment, safeguarding Federalism, adding to term limits, getting rid of drug laws?) are all still in keeping with the tenants of free government rooted in classical liberal theory
October 19 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia nonono we need to appoint good and wise and virtuous men to be our space overlords.
October 19 at 7:24pm · Like · 1
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Joshua Kenz On of the greater faults of modern liberal democracies is the sheer volume and the mutability of laws. Law cannot function in its pedagogical role of forming virtue when it is always up to discussion and change, and when both in its phrasing and volume it becomes unknowable to the common man.
And it will only form virtue when it gains the force of custom, which indeed is the main force of every law, which can only happen when it is known and stable. But stability presupposes a certain moral unity in the community on this or that point, or more generally in a common morality.
A (effective) monarchy may have been better situated to keep the stability of laws and thus help retard the disintegration of common Christian morality, presuming the king both care to and was secure enough to do so. But where democracy is idealised, when common agreement in morality breaks down, it becomes virtually impossible to retain the customary force of laws here.
Still, when you see people trying to overturn unenforced laws or get homosexual unions called marriage, etc they are nodding to the law as teacher, and recognize the value of overturning the law (it implies moral acceptance).
October 19 at 7:28pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger I can't counter Peterson's litany of laws that promote virtue, whatever that means for him. How is a a commercial state or city of commerce reformed? I don't think the laws can be reformed at this point, but does that mean we can do nothing?
October 19 at 7:29pm · Like
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Michael Beitia an effective monarchy is a surefire path to actual tyranny too.
October 19 at 7:29pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Well I put "presuming the king cared" implying that just having an effective monarch doesn't mean laws = common good. I was really only focusing on the more stable nature of laws in the system anyways, not much besides.
October 19 at 7:32pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The laws we have now are not merely about commerce. Many of them seek to counter an understanding of vice and promote and understanding of virtue. Take laws relating to race, for example.
In popular forms of government, we speak of morality in terms of equality and liberty. This doesn't get rid of the connection between those concepts and justice and virtue.
October 19 at 7:32pm · Like
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Michael Beitia it is a pretty watered-down connection though
October 19 at 7:34pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz Is that liberty to do as one wills, or liberty to do the good? #servaispinckaersgnosis
October 19 at 7:34pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No. Aristotle sees Justice as very much related to our understanding of equality. And liberty is always connected to virtue - read the Puritans on to people today shouting AGAINST the idea that liberty means doing whatever one wants. In fact, speaking against absolute liberty is almost an American platitude.
October 19 at 7:35pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as an aside, we've quietly passed 38K comments without comment. Is it now every 10K that we remark?
October 19 at 7:36pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson As Madison said, monarchy is good in that the monarch can help moderate the eternal battle between rich and poor, or the many and the few, and quell factions. But the problem there is that the monarch has his own interest, and although a potentially neutral outside observer in relation to disputes at large, he often has the power to implement his will without the others (few or the many) often being able to do much about it. So he wears the ring of gyges or is without check.
October 19 at 7:36pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The real problem here has little to do with the form. It has to do with what enlivens that form. The real problem is that we disagree about what virtue is. About religion. About human nature. About the purpose of persons. Etc.
October 19 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer A pure monarchy is one heartbeat away from tyranny.
October 19 at 7:37pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson With such radical underlying disagreement, and a dishonest rhetoric of liberalism that conceals and obscures our moral claims, we gots problems.
October 19 at 7:43pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson It worked when even dudes like Jefferson thought reason could tell you roughly what virtue was and this roughly overlapped with religion, by which was meant some form of Protestantism.
But without that underlying understanding, which Protestantism didn't do a good job of keeping together, things fall apart.
October 19 at 7:40pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In the ensuing absence, well, mammon and the passions rise up to sit on their throne.
October 19 at 7:42pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Patricia-- even if we give you Ondaatje, that's one good writer (Monroe), one pretty good writer (Ondaatje), and one writer of decent airplane reading (Martel).
October 19 at 7:43pm · Like
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John Boyer Ultimately, I think Matthew J. Peterson has raised a serious point which I hadn't thought about very clearly. And for that, thanks.
October 19 at 7:45pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe And Ondaatje didn't move to Canada until he was 19, so he missed all the formative years of grasshoppers or dwindling cod and deep-seated loathing for Toronto
October 19 at 7:48pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill All laws regarding domestic violence, sexual assault, lewd acts, annoying (and/or molesting) children, and laws regarding the treatment of animals and pets.
All have the end of virtue.
October 19 at 7:52pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe New conversation topic. Is "white privilege" a thing?
October 19 at 8:19pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yes. Next question.
October 19 at 8:27pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Only someone with white privilege responds to a question in that manner...
October 19 at 8:30pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland John Buchan is not amazing literature, but his writing is enjoyable. He's pretty much Scottish by birth, but he WAS the Governor General of Canada and lived there for a while. So maybe his books count as partly Canadian by extension...
October 19 at 8:31pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland White privilege means you won't get shot and killed if you're standing in Walmart holding a toy gun. (If you're of apparent caucasian extraction.)
October 19 at 8:32pm · Edited · Like
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Catherine Ryland Bertheia, yes. Only 10Ks really count.
October 19 at 8:33pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did that happen?
October 19 at 8:33pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante John Buchan is great!
October 19 at 8:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland ? Isak?
October 19 at 8:35pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I love what I've read of him.
October 19 at 8:35pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Oh, I see, the gun thing? Yes, recently.
October 19 at 8:36pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland http://www.msnbc.com/.../cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding...
Cops shoot and kill man holding toy gun in Wal-Mart
Police fatally shot and killed a 22-year-old man who...
MSNBC.COM
October 19 at 8:37pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland So unbelievably tragic.
October 19 at 8:38pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Unreal
October 19 at 8:38pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I started trying to keep track of police violence cases around the country, but I gave up because there were too many.
October 19 at 8:38pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson you say " I don't see the constitutive form of the regime as inherently problematic." Do you really think the constitutive form of the regime is the same now as it was at the founding?
October 19 at 8:40pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Also, if when defending a nation from the charge of having crap literature, one has to include Malcolm flipping Gladwell in the list of that nation's greats, hadn't one better just admit the game is up? (Also: he's not a novelist.)
October 19 at 8:42pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe 'What is it then? Why say "white privilege" instead of "racism against black people"?
October 19 at 9:12pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Vanilla Ice, Eminem, Macklemore...
Three reasons.
And most people do not know the meaning of skin industries and metal mulisha.
October 19 at 9:22pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Max, privilege is the perfect pretext for proactive silencing. Racism has to be proven. Privilege is built in.
October 19 at 9:25pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill Thanks to dentists and lawyers, motorcycle culture is no longer "hell's Angels", it is just "wild hogs".
I would like to say that white supremacists are a thing of the past, but modern white supremacy has changed funding from just drugs to energy drinks.
October 19 at 9:25pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland I agree, Max. Except it's not just black people, it's many different minorities.
October 19 at 9:29pm · Edited · Like
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Jeff Neill My references are west coast instances of all racism being based upon prison culture and it is wholly regulated to prison culture. Hence, violence between race based gangs, and fear from the criminal element based upon gang affiliated attire.
If you dress like a gang member and hold a weapon real or fake you will be perceived as a gang member. (This is regardless of race)
October 19 at 9:34pm · Like
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Jeff Neill However, if you are in an area that allows public hunting and if you dress in camouflage and "hunter Orange", regardless of your race you can wander around with a loaded loaded rifle And the only questions you'll get are "did you get anything yet?"
It is all about the clothing and location.
October 19 at 9:44pm · Like · 1
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Max Summe I mean - racism I can understand. But complaining about other people's... privileges?
That's like whining about your birth. You had no say in it, but hey - neither did that asshole with a trust fund.
And really - the demand associated with "white privilege"... telling people to feel guilty for being born a certain color... would be obviously racist to anybody who isn't a student of Critical Race Theory.
None of it makes sense to me.
October 19 at 10:34pm · Unlike · 3
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John Boyer It's a way to take an action and institutionalize it in a way that allows for restrictions and silencing. You don't have to say anything to be illegitimate...because white privilege. That's how this racket works.
October 19 at 10:50pm · Like
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Sean Robertson Isak, your camping trip better have produced some good haiku.
October 19 at 10:59pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz So the bishop of Ft. Worth Texas has illegally and in violation of the rights of the faithful, has "outlawed" communion on tongue because of the fake scare of ebola, even though not in his diocese. This is the same bishop who thinks the TLM is a danger to the salvation of souls. Despite the Vatican, after being asked, saying that the right to receive on tongue could not be denied (asked back over the swine flu and bishops illegally banning it then) we saw the FSSP booted from Toronto for violating this illicit order.
So it seems to me, rather than putting the pressure on priests who can be in fear of a capricious bishop, some of the faithful should sue the bishop in ecclesial courts.
October 19 at 11:06pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz Discuss
October 19 at 11:06pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz FWIW, if this were some place where ebola was an actual threat, giving communion in hand to an ebola sufferer would also not be an option. So this is obvious an excuse to deny Christ's faithful their right here, and it can only be motivated by either heresy or a hate of reverence and the sacred, or both. It is unfathomable to me, really, how one can hate such traditional practices so much.
October 19 at 11:10pm · Like · 2
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Max Summe Joshua Kenz - would you say the bishop was acting out of his white privilege?
October 19 at 11:11pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Most certainly.
October 19 at 11:13pm · Like
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John Boyer Ebola? Definitely white privilege.
October 19 at 11:13pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Sean - oh yes. It did.
October 19 at 11:14pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz We all know that it is mostly hispanics and Filipinos and other immigrants that receive on tongue in the Novus Ordo...he obviously wants to preserve his decrepit folk 1970's wishy washy Catholic-lite religion....preserved most in pasty old white people who think that bad folk music from decades ago is how you reach youth, and are oblivious to the dearth of youth in their Masses..
October 19 at 11:15pm · Like · 3
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Joshua Kenz #folkmassiswhiteprivelegegnosis
October 19 at 11:16pm · Like · 6
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Sean Robertson Isak, you must share. At your leisure, of course.
October 19 at 11:16pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Yeah I can do that. Some others wrote some good ones too. I have been spreading the good word of the haiku.
October 19 at 11:17pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #haikugnosis
October 19 at 11:17pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz Retraction: This is why I shouldn't trust even Catholic media (both a "liberal" and a "traditionalist" site with the same story). The actual diocesan rules mentions the flu and other communicable disease, such as ebola. An inflammatory example.
Apparently holding hands during the Pater is still the norm there, hence the need to change it during flue season.
But the actual norms just say the laity should be "strongly encouraged" No doubt that will be misused, but it doesn't outright forbid communion on tongue. So my apologies for believing something bad too readily of a bishop due to prior judgment.
October 19 at 11:23pm · Like · 2
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Joshua Kenz What does the Nobel Prize have to do with anything? Obama got that for being black and getting elected as president and for nothing else....
October 19 at 11:33pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Communion in the hand because of Ebola hysteria was a very big deal in Nigeria where the norm is on the tongue.
October 19 at 11:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz That is rather nasty response to, albeit, a bad joke. I don't appreciate being cussed at
October 19 at 11:35pm · Like
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Joshua Kenz No, it didn't. Bye
October 19 at 11:38pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Nobel Peace Prize: that was rescinded after he brought peace to the Middle East (and drone strikes).
October 19 at 11:44pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Daniel P. O'Connell-- props have been given to Munroe. She's the exception to the rule.
October 19 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Oleg Kostoglotov A favorite quote of mine from a Canadian writer Mazo de La Roche "To begin with, it seems to me that Canadian writers, like all other Canadians, are too often urged, prodded, harried to be Canadian. To what end is this? They could not stop being Canadian, not if they tried. Who could live in this stupendous country - who could write in it, and not bear its mark? The best of Canadian writers are not self-consciously Canadian, though the critics do their best to make them so. -Introduction to "Northern Lights - A New Collection of Distinguished Writing by Canadian Authors"
October 20 at 12:04am · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I am sorry to have been away from tNET for so long, but I see that Joshua Kenz has made many of the same arguments I would have made in response to Matthew J. Peterson. I agree with Joshua that Aristotle's political principles are not restricted to the polis. After all, Aquinas embraces these same Aristotelian principles in On Kingship, and Aquinas is not addressing the king of a small city-state in that text. Moreover, we have in Aquinas the proper political principles as they pertain to the proper relationship of Church and State, which is certainly relevant to our investigation into the First Amendment. Now, did Aquinas have his head in the clouds when he employed these political principles to address a 100% genuine living and breathing king?
But let's return to the argument where we left it. When I had to depart earlier this evening, we had agreed that the State cannot push to the side problems or questions of religion. Above all, the State cannot ignore the contemplation of God because it is the highest natural virtue, the virtue supported by all the other natural virtues, and therefore a chief concern of the State which by its very nature must be concerned with virtue. Turning then to the First Amendment, it becomes immediately clear that the American regime neglects its duty to order the lives of its citizens toward God. While the First Amendment gives men the liberty in a physical sense to read the Bible, go to Mass, say the rosary, etc., nevertheless these men are lacking what Leo XIII calls the "moral liberty" that is proper to a rational nature. Men governed by the First Amendment lack moral liberty because the regime refuses in principle to distinguish between true and false religion. Even were all men to agree that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, the establishment clause would prohibit its being favored in any way by the State. True liberty of worship is therefore necessarily neglected, and it is neglected by design. Each religion is given the same liberty (in the physical sense) of worshiping as it pleases because the American regime willingly permits a multiplicity of antagonistic views about the final end of man. There is no recognized public authority to show which religion leads to truth.
Ironically, however, the First Amendment does establish, contrary to its own stated position, a pseudo religion of indifferentism as the one true faith that will save man. Since this is the public position, and since man is a political animal, this establishment of the non-estatblishment principle is enthroned in the soul where the truth should rule. The true religion then becomes at best a private matter for individuals, while all the weight of public authority supports indifference to man's highest end. The American government readily imposes its moral authority in so-called non-religious areas of life--the environment, dating rules, hate speech, etc.--but it teaches souls to view religion as of little importance, just so many idiosyncratic ways of looking at the world,
It is no wonder, then, that Leo XIII wrote in Immortale Dei that "it is a public crime to act as though there were no God. So, too, is it a sin for the State not to have care for religion as a something beyond its scope, or as of no practical benefit; or out of many forms of religion to adopt that one which chimes in with the fancy; for we are bound absolutely to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will. All who rule, therefore, would hold in honor the holy name of God, and one of their chief duties must be to favor religion, to protect it, to shield it under the credit and sanction of the laws, and neither to organize nor enact any measure that may compromise its safety. This is the bounden duty of rulers to the people over whom they rule."
Now, before we get in to the question of circumstances surrounding the founding of the American regime, and what if anything could have been done differently given the plurality of religious views in America at that time, I am wondering Matthew J. Peterson if you agree with this assessment of the First Amendment in the abstract. If so, I think we could have a fruitful discussion of the practical matter.
So, there is no need to get upset at the Spaceman over his airy fairy crazy completely impractical unwilling to give specifics ten thousand times discussed great books peachy feelings refusal to talk about best possible solutions. I will be happy to come down out of my rocket ship and discuss these matters if you can tell me whether you think the First Amendment is in principle defective either in the way I have argued or in some other way that I have neglected. And if you feel the anger rising and a diatribe approaching, just give this a listen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LX7WrHCaUA
Elton John - Rocket Man (HQ)
Song called "Rocket Man" by Sir Elton John. Available on the album Honky Chateau (1972) . Lyrics: She...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 12:27am · Edited · Like · 6
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Daniel Lendman So... Denver Broncos. Awesome.
October 20 at 12:26am · Like
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Isak Benedict The 15th error condemned by Pius IX in his Syllabus Errorum, 1864: "Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
October 20 at 12:29am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict The 77th condemned error: "In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship." -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.
October 20 at 12:32am · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I am sorry to "hit and run" again, but it is half past midnight here on the East Coast, and I have already neglected too many student papers this weekend (as I am sure many others on tNET have). No regrets, but I have to get to bed. I'll check back in tomorrow to see what's cookin' on the thread of all threads. Thanks for your patience and indulgence. God bless one and all.
October 20 at 12:39am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Then it's time for a few haiku while the hoi polloi consider the Spaceman's words!
October 20 at 12:46am · Like
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Isak Benedict Here are a few of the many I wrote while camping in the Lost Dutchman State Park.
October 20 at 12:47am · Like
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Isak Benedict .
I take a warm piss
on the cold morning desert -
steam rises
October 20 at 12:48am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict .
swallow
screeching in the tree -
bitterness
October 20 at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
the ant does not know
why I am guiding him
away from the spider
October 20 at 12:49am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict .
I walked out under
the vast morning sky light
and spoke not a word
October 20 at 12:50am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict .
I unpacked the beer
and filled the cooler with ice -
my job is done
October 20 at 12:50am · Like
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Isak Benedict .
the tents are not as tall
as the men they shelter -
I find shade
October 20 at 12:50am · Like
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Isak Benedict .
I want nothing
as I sit and think of God -
oh! bacon's ready!
October 20 at 12:51am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict .
the hooded cliff -
we kiss
and a fly lands on my ear
October 20 at 12:52am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lul-Y8vSr0I
William Shatner "Sings" 'Rocket Man' (1978) - BEST QUALITY!
From The Science Fiction Film Awards, William...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 12:52am · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict .
I've never been here
in the sky palace -
I've always been here
October 20 at 12:52am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
red rock
silence
vision
October 20 at 12:53am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
I carry a dog
with a bleeding paw -
I rip my shirt
October 20 at 12:53am · Like
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Isak Benedict .
flowers on the rock
flowers in your wild hair -
the same adornment
October 20 at 12:54am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict .
how strange -
there is someone here too -
guest of the mountain
October 20 at 12:55am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
across the ditch
a gang of quail fight a rabbit -
it's so funny
October 20 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict As you can see, I have a problem. These things are like potato chips - bet you can't write just one!
October 20 at 12:56am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict #addictiongnosis
October 20 at 12:56am · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Haha, wow you weren't kidding.
October 20 at 12:57am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Definitely true though.
October 20 at 12:57am · Like
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Isak Benedict It was a grand trip. I'll be returning there for sure.
October 20 at 12:59am · Like
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Sean Robertson Yeah, it looks great. Consider yourself lucky! SW Florida offers no such grandeurs.
October 20 at 1:01am · Like
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Isak Benedict Got a favorite?
October 20 at 1:01am · Like
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Isak Benedict But I wager there is beauty nonetheless where you are. You should try writing a few.
October 20 at 1:02am · Like
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Sean Robertson I'm bad at favourites, but my top three would be the ant, the bacon, and the kiss.
October 20 at 1:02am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict My favorites exactly, in that order. Although the moment of seeing quail trying to gang up on a jackrabbit was probably the most memorable.
October 20 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The True Faith confessed
by His stripes and spangled stars
Status updated
October 20 at 1:04am · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson There are a few that look good, but I'm trying to see what you're seeing and not quite getting there.
October 20 at 1:04am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict No doubt! They cannot all be successful, especially an amateur's.
October 20 at 1:06am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson And you're right about FL, of course. I'll have to give it a shot.
October 20 at 1:06am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Certainly not. Nonetheless, I admire your ability.
October 20 at 1:08am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict As you read in my hybrid essay, that comes very gradually. Thank you!
October 20 at 1:09am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Haha, so I actually just remembered that I spent three years staring at one of your poems (and many others) while on the can down in Serra's. Something about brewing wisdom in a silver chalice like a knave. It just hit me that it was yours.
October 20 at 1:28am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Wow! Yeah, Silver Father. It's about Jeffrey Bond haha - we should probably mention that we in the dorm my freshman year designated one of the stalls "The Poet's Pot" and adorned the walls with many cutouts of poems. Glad it's still there.
October 20 at 1:24am · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson Heh heh, yes I have fond memories of that place. We had to narrowly rescue it from destruction more than once, and I'm not sure it was always intact, but Mike Masteller and I made sure to keep the walls filled as long as we were there.
October 20 at 1:33am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill .
I am now confused
Haiku's a seasonal poem
Not a free verse rant
October 20 at 1:42am · Like
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Isak Benedict Okay...
October 20 at 1:43am · Like
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Jeff Neill Autumnal jolies
October 20 at 1:43am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Autumnal Jolies?
Isak Benedict's photo.
October 20 at 1:45am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Were you present at the previous conversations about haiku?
October 20 at 1:47am · Like
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Jeff Neill Ah yes... I like my Jolie's in the autumn colors.
October 20 at 1:49am · Like
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Jeff Neill Present in what tense?
October 20 at 1:49am · Like
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Isak Benedict "One who produces even a single good poem has not spent his life in vain." ~ Basho
October 20 at 1:50am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Did you read and/or participate in them? (Tense? Do you mean sense?)
October 20 at 1:51am · Like
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Jeff Neill Locker rooms are a present sense, I was speaking in tense.
October 20 at 1:54am · Like
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Isak Benedict That's intense.
October 20 at 1:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia the best bathrooms at TAC were the first stall in the 300 dorm, which we designated the urinal, but people still kept using it #2 style, so we put up a sign acquired on the side of the road that said "no dumping". people didn't get the hint so we ripped the seat off.
and the stadium at Serra hall that had a tv set and an original nintendo in it.
October 20 at 7:22am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Regarding privilege: http://www.pbs.org/.../white-educated-and-wealthy.../
Do You Live in a Bubble? A Quiz | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour
Paul Solman interviews author Charles Murray about...
PBS.ORG
October 20 at 9:00am · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I wouldn't try to deny that I've got white privilege and a lot of other privilege. I did very badly on this quiz.
October 20 at 9:00am · Like
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Michael Beitia privilege is a two edged sword. On one hand it can show what economic advantages that one grows up with, but on the other hand it is not predictive of any future benefit.
and fyi, I did pretty well on the quiz, if high score means "well"
October 20 at 9:12am · Like
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Michael Beitia let me get this straight, re: privilege
the rich white man is in charge, therefore even poor white people have privilege? Tell that to West Virginia
October 20 at 9:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia nobody is going to fight me on this one?
October 20 at 9:57am · Like
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Max Summe No, because everybody knows in their heart that if you're a hillbilly, your pale skin won't actually help you get ahead.
October 20 at 10:02am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia first of all, I don't self-identify as white, and I was never called "white" until after college.
second of all, "whiteness" is a racist construct imposed by guilty New England leftists.
October 20 at 10:05am · Like
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Max Summe That's all true. Saying "white people" is pretty racist - because you're conflating I don't know how many ethnicities and cultures into one.
October 20 at 10:10am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia I think Matthew J. Peterson editing the post is just his way of keeping it at the top of everyone's news feed.
October 20 at 10:18am · Like · 4
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Oleg Kostoglotov Matthew J. Peterson has found some way to monetize tNET and has not told anyone else. The topic of discussion just drives more people to comment.
October 20 at 10:30am · Like · 3
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Daniel Lendman White privilege is a thing.
October 20 at 10:42am · Like · 1
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Max Summe Daniel Lendman - What is it?
October 20 at 10:49am · Like
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Daniel Lendman People automatically trust me, think I am smart, and capable because I am white.
October 20 at 10:51am · Like
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Daniel Lendman In fact, because I am tall with blue eyes, American (and European) culture favours me, even more.
October 20 at 10:52am · Like · 1
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Max Summe How do you verify either half of that assertion?
October 20 at 10:52am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Of course, the perception is reinforced by the way I dress and talk.
October 20 at 10:53am · Like · 1
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Max Summe Trust me Daniel Lendman - I didn't automatically think you were smart or capable when I first met you
October 20 at 10:54am · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I don't think white privilege applies universally, to get rid of that particular straw man
October 20 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Daniel is of the goober ethnicity!
October 20 at 10:54am · Like · 1
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Max Summe If it's not universal then how is it based on skin color?
October 20 at 10:56am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Max Summe. Yes you did. You also assumed that I would probably follow rules.
October 20 at 10:57am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I remember in high school, everyone just assumed that I would have good grades and would follow all the rules.
October 20 at 10:58am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Because the positive perceptions based on skin-color can be undermined by other indicators, like, say, meth-head teeth
October 20 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Yes, Samantha Cohoe.
October 20 at 10:59am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman That is why I mentioned my clothing.
October 20 at 11:00am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman This is part of the tension. No one will negatively judge a black man, or a hispanic as long as he dresses or acts white.
October 20 at 11:02am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Not sure that's 100% true.
October 20 at 11:06am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe http://paw.princeton.edu/.../10/08/pages/7596/index.xml...&
Princeton Alumni Weekly: The Rules
I knew the day would come, but I didn’t know how it would happen, where I would be, or how I would...
PAW.PRINCETON.EDU
October 20 at 11:06am · Like
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Max Summe Daniel Lendman - "acts white" - what does that mean?
October 20 at 11:08am · Like
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Max Summe Also - doesn't it sound to your ears racist to say "acts white"?
October 20 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Samantha Cohoe, you are right, I was speaking broadly. I should say, "Typically blacks and hispanics are not judged AS negatively by whites as long as they act white."
October 20 at 11:09am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Those who do "act white" are often rejected by the others of their ethnicity.
October 20 at 11:10am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Daniel and Samantha, in any case it's going to be a different experience for the black man and the Latin man dressing and acting Anglo. Almost certainly smoother for the Latin, depending on the circumstances
October 20 at 11:16am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Oh, and referring back to Michael's earlier comment-- I don't think the privilege we grew up with is determinative of later outcomes, but it certainly is predictive.
October 20 at 11:16am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so there's no one "pan-minority" experience
October 20 at 11:17am · Like · 2
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Daniel Lendman Max Summe, I think it is racist to say, "acts white"?
More essentially, I think it is "culturist" which is why Jehoshaphat Escalante is more precise in using the term "Anglo".
October 20 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Did anyone read the Princeton alumni article I posted? I thought it was an excellent example of a privileged black boy who still lacks white privilege.
October 20 at 11:18am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Now, that kid is clearly much better off than a lot of (most?) white kids, but there is a real privilege that he lacks because he is black, and that causes him (and his parents) real anxiety and suffering.
October 20 at 11:21am · Edited · Like · 1
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Max Summe Yeah but isn't that just racism? Why are we using the term "white privilege" specifically?
October 20 at 11:21am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Because it is a privilege that he lacks?
October 20 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Because it you are white, you are given privilege.
October 20 at 11:22am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well, it's very complicated, and the terms on which this conversation is presently being had nationally aren't very promising, I'll say that much
October 20 at 11:24am · Like · 5
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Samantha Cohoe What's the objection here, Max?
October 20 at 11:24am · Like · 1
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Max Summe It doesn't sound like it's because I'm white, because we already said that... if you don't dress correctly or speak correctly that doesn't apply......
October 20 at 11:24am · Like
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Michael Beitia Jehoshaphat Escalante, please. help me out here.
October 20 at 11:24am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe There's clearly something real here that is being described. Maybe the concept is used unfairly. That's a different question.
October 20 at 11:25am · Like
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Michael Beitia and I've read the Princeton article before. And it depends on where you are when you're applying such privilege.
October 20 at 11:27am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Jehoshaphat Escalante, I think you are absolutely right on that.
October 20 at 11:27am · Like
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Catherine Ryland The comments in the article show other people's experience with similar problems.
The key is this: there is a certain cultural standard of beauty or conformity, and the further you fall away from this, the more poorly you are treated.
If you don't dress or act or look a certain way according to the culture's standard of beauty, you are ignored, and if you do look/dress/act a way that is culturally despised, you are actively rejected or harmed. If you are dirty, or have the "wrong" skin color, or if you look poor in any way, or as people were saying above, if you have bad teeth etc. I've seen this happen to people so many times.
October 20 at 11:28am · Like
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Max Summe Samantha Cohoe - just because something real is being described doesn't mean we are using the right words to describe it.
If I described the same set of phenomena with the words "banana pie advantage" wouldn't we all raise an eyebrow?
October 20 at 11:28am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Daniel just benefits from tall privilege
October 20 at 11:29am · Like · 6
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Max Summe i.e. we are using words with connotations that go beyond the definition we are giving which creates a perception other than just the definition.
Essentially - everyone is describing racism OR advantages you get by speaking and dressing well.
Then we conflate those into a new idea we call "white privilege" - but is it a privilege because you are white? Or because of something else?
October 20 at 11:30am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Michael Beitia, that is also true.
October 20 at 11:30am · Like
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Michael Beitia now if you want to restrict it to "tall male educated wealthy Princeton elite privilege" I'll grant you that
October 20 at 11:31am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe What? no.
October 20 at 11:31am · Like
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Daniel Lendman Max, as suggested, it is probably more apt to speak of anglo privilege.
October 20 at 11:31am · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov Different cultures tend to favour those that follow their cultural norms and either distrust or misunderstand those of other cultures. The Anglo Saxon culture most prevalent in the western world tends to be wealthy and work oriented, does this culture favour those who are part of it, yes. Does it intentionally discriminate against those of different ethnicities or is just a fact that it is hard to integrate or operate cross culturally?
October 20 at 11:32am · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Eh, I've got things to do. Be back later maybe.
October 20 at 11:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia Max has blonde hair. He gets the "double whitey privilege"
October 20 at 11:32am · Like
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Michael Beitia where I grew up, being a member of the Mormon "church" carried very particular advantages. No one spoke of "momo privilege"
October 20 at 11:33am · Like
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Max Summe And blue eyes! - but I'm not tall....
October 20 at 11:33am · Like
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Daniel Lendman I think I am probably especially sensitive to this because I experienced such contrasts in my life.
I went to a high school where Caucasians were a minority. I experienced racism directed against me by both hispanics and blacks. I likewise experienced the benefits of, "being white" from teachers and other students from various backgrounds. This is a fact.
October 20 at 11:33am · Like
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Róisín Grimm And "white" is currently our cultural beauty standard? Guys, I'm calling bs. Also, I'd boldly state that IMO there ain't no less privileged group in the US of A than the trailer trash redneck. You're going nowhere if you're Billy Joe Bootjack from Toad Suck, Arkansas. (Real location btw.)
October 20 at 11:34am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I went to a predominately hispanic high school. the rest of the honkies were mormon. I got it from both sides
October 20 at 11:34am · Like
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Michael Beitia but my dad always had a "Basque Power" bumper sticker....
October 20 at 11:35am · Like · 2
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Max Summe ^^hahah
October 20 at 11:36am · Like
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Max Summe Racism is real. White privilege may even describe a real phenomenon.
But I take issue with the term.
October 20 at 11:37am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I agree it is a problematic term
October 20 at 11:38am · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe How about this quote from the article: "Through no fault of their own, many white men, I think, are unaware or unappreciative of the white male privilege that they enjoy every day, which Wellesley’s Professor McIntosh wrote about in her studies of race, gender, class, and privilege. They have no idea how much they take for granted, or know of the burdens endured daily by many people in their own communities. Nor do they appreciate the lingering effects of such burdens and daily traumas."
October 20 at 11:38am · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe I have no idea what it's like to be treated by default as suspicious, or like a criminal. That's a privilege I have.
October 20 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'd say certainly true often, but an invalid generalization. And what does "white" mean?
October 20 at 11:40am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Yes you do- you were Protestant at TAC
October 20 at 11:41am · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and I'd query the use of the word "privilege" for that, Samantha; more precisely, what's meant by "privilege" here is the experience of not being unusual. Is that a "privilege"? And if so, bestowed by whom or by what?
October 20 at 11:43am · Edited · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I enjoy the benefits of sexy person privilege.
October 20 at 11:42am · Like · 4
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Isak Benedict #sexygnosis
October 20 at 11:43am · Like · 3
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Max Summe My youth was a lot different - in my neighborhood I hung around with fairly suspicious youth - so when I was with them, we were automatically suspected of being up to no good - but when I went to school at a fancy-pants high school, nobody made such an assumption.
It wasn't my skin color. It was dress, behavior, context and associations that made the difference.
October 20 at 11:43am · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Growing up between two Marine bases, a high and tight hair cut signified strongly (high honor and respect, despite low wages)
October 20 at 11:46am · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia I liked the privilege I got when the giant black kid called me a "fucking white-assed piece of shit" in my classroom. I think that was the first time I was ever referred to as "white"
October 20 at 11:48am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia and now, without understanding growing up stuck between a slight hispanic majority and a large Mormon oppressive presence, someone looks at my skin and says: check your privilege. Check my middle fingers, both of them.
October 20 at 11:52am · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill White currently includes: all Europe, Russia, Mediterranean, Middle East and Saudi Arabia, Egypt, South Africa and non-tribal ancestry Pacific Islanders.
Spain is not Hispanic
October 20 at 11:53am · Like
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Michael Beitia I got chased down the street in downtown Boise in high school because a lady at the book store I was at "didn't see you put that book back down"
#mohawkgnosis
October 20 at 11:53am · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia tell that to the Polish working in some places....
October 20 at 11:54am · Like
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Jeff Neill I laugh when Persians are told they are white.
October 20 at 11:54am · Like
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Jeff Neill A friend had an Egyptian father and Iranian mother, he spoke 3 or 4 dialects of farci and Arabic, but he's classified as "white" by our politics
October 20 at 11:56am · Like
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Jeff Neill Egyptian Americans are not allowed to claim African American.
October 20 at 11:57am · Like
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Michael Beitia That's not true. If transgender can claim any old gender, then I, being transracial, can claim to be any race. See also SCOTUS and the "right to define one's own universe"
October 20 at 11:59am · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia stick that in your Madisonian pipe and smoke it Peterson
October 20 at 12:00pm · Like · 3
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Jeff Neill I'm a pacific+Atlantic islander.
October 20 at 12:02pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Speaking of Madisonian Matthew J. Peterson, did anyone else enjoy as much as I did the Shatner version of "Rocket Man." Hilarious. Brought back memories of my Star Trek (original T.V. series) days.
October 20 at 12:07pm · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill His "common people" rendition was classic too.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
William Shatner - Common People
The Shatner adaptation of "Common People"
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 12:11pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond When I first read Plato's Republic in college, my initial response to Plato's tripartite soul was to think of Star Trek: Spock = reason; Kirk = spiritedness; Bones = desires. It was the only frame of reference I had. Pitiful, but it worked for me. Every episode is about getting the three properly realigned after something disturbs the right order. Note that reason, for the American public, had to be represented by an alien. Very interesting.
October 20 at 12:15pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia ^Straussian^
October 20 at 12:15pm · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss It's a Platonic legacy to reduce reason to a total absence of emotion.
October 20 at 12:16pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond And those were my pre-Strauss days. You can see how suited I was to be recruited by that cult.
October 20 at 12:16pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond Ah, but Spock was half human. Emotion crept in here and there, especially during Vulcan mating season.
October 20 at 12:17pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Did anyone else ever notice that "Come on Baby Light my Fire" seems to be an allegorical account of the Ascent to the Good as proposed in Symposium?
October 20 at 12:17pm · Like · 1
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I had a huge crush on Spock.
October 20 at 12:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So did that nurse, whatever her name was.
October 20 at 12:18pm · Like
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Michael Beitia but the best Shatner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnxtVEUqzFw
William Shatner Sings the Classics: Mr. Tambourine Man
Bill, please never stop entertaining us. Clearly, I did not...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 12:20pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng I was blissfully on retreat with the Carmelites of Holy Hill over the weekend, did I miss anything? Also, my apologies to those who tagged me, those comments are lost like tears in the rain
October 20 at 12:24pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict Several of us composed beauteous declarations of love and admiration for you - too bad you missed them!
October 20 at 12:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Rebecca Bratten Weiss, that is a very interesting take on the Doors. I remember when that song first hit the radio. I don't think anyone viewed it as an ascent back in the day, but perhaps your interpretation could redeem it. But to fit the Symposium, it would have to be an ascent to the Beautiful (which is perhaps convertible with the Good).
October 20 at 12:27pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- I was Catholic most of the time I was at TAC. Anyway, I'm not saying it isn't a problematic term, but the original question was whether white privilege is a "thing," and it seems to me that it is.
October 20 at 12:28pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Of course it is. "The Light of the Good shines on All."
October 20 at 12:29pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe And I guess I'd say that society grants the privilege.
October 20 at 12:29pm · Like
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Isak Benedict "No time to wallow in the mire"
October 20 at 12:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond In the Doors' allegory, who or what is "baby"?
October 20 at 12:30pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Isak, I dare ask, how far back are they? I will go great lengths to be flattered
October 20 at 12:31pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe btw, I also think "sexy privilege" is a thing. Or, at least, "attractive person privilege."
October 20 at 12:31pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Jim Morrison - the American shaman
October 20 at 12:32pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I was making it up Adrw. A poor, meager jest. I would like to shower praise on your most excellent nonsense sentences, however.
October 20 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Samantha - the privilege of beauty?
October 20 at 12:33pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman Adrw Lng. Chocolate Rain.
October 20 at 12:34pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yes. That.
October 20 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Jeffrey Bond could "baby" be the spirit of eros?
October 20 at 12:34pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Nice.
October 20 at 12:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Or is it that funny little fellow who accompanies Socrates to Agathon's drinking party?
October 20 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict The spirit of eros manifested in a particular object of love.
October 20 at 12:36pm · Like · 1
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Adrw Lng Isak: just whay you just me when I wag my fladder$$$
October 20 at 12:38pm · Like · 1
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Daniel Lendman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwTZ2xpQwpA
"Chocolate Rain" Original Song by Tay Zonday
Click here: http://www.patreon.com/tayzondayto...
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 12:39pm · Like
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Daniel Lendman #chocolateraingnosis
October 20 at 12:39pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Adrw-- your nonsense sentences were amusing when they served the particular purpose of undermining Scott. Without Scott, they're just nonsense.
October 20 at 12:39pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Hey you guys should see this brilliant little cubist haiku by E.E. Cummings, just to confuse everyone (except Adrw obviously):
l(a
le
af
fa
ll
s)
one
li
ness
October 20 at 12:40pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict Adrw just because the Synod bishops said we should be open to your fladder-wagging doesn't mean you should do it here in a public forum.
October 20 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Samantha, something is a thing; I'd just reiterate my query about whether "privilege" is a good word for it, and I'd say that "white" needs some analysis too. As some have pointed out, whatever group is non-disadvantaged, it doesn't really include the Scots-Irish from W VA to the trailer parks of California; it really doesnt.
October 20 at 12:43pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Ryland l (a leaf falls) oneliness?
October 20 at 12:44pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict That first letter is a lowercase "L." In the facebook font it looks like a capital "i."
October 20 at 12:45pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- would "advantage" be better? And I think the people who theorize about this stuff have done quite a bit of analysis about what "white" means, though I'm by no means fully up on that stuff.
October 20 at 12:48pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I am fully up on it, and the theorists are very slippery. And "advantage" would work better, though there are still suppositions and implications which would need to be brought into the light of day with that
October 20 at 12:50pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe And I also think "check your privilege" is just an obnoxious thing to say.
October 20 at 12:50pm · Like · 6
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Isak Benedict "A haiku is an open door that looks shut." ~ R.H. Blyth
October 20 at 12:52pm · Edited · Like
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Adrw Lng Oh, believe me, it is *all* nonsense.
October 20 at 12:51pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger "White privilege" and racism are post puritanical guilt trips, especially effective on the highly educated who then breed self loathing and concoct penances for less privileged non blacks and Hispanics without ever addressing underlying problems. It's just another form of condescension that solves little but makes some feel good about themselves.
October 20 at 12:51pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe John is totally right. Racism was just made up by ivory tower intellectuals to make poor white people feel bad.
October 20 at 12:54pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia Samantha, my simple question is:
if all the power, money, authority and "cultural directioning" resides in the privileged white few, how is it convertible?
October 20 at 12:55pm · Like
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John Ruplinger glad i give you opportunity to feel superior, Samantha.
October 20 at 12:57pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Sorry, Michael, I don't understand your question
October 20 at 12:58pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger The only sickos in the race wars are the talking heads, policy wonks and ivory tower types who only fuel the hate and ignore the real problems or turn blind eye. It's detestable. I grew up in the hood. The talk makes me vomit. But hey, whatever makes you feel good.
October 20 at 1:04pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I really have no idea what you are talking about, or what is supposed to be making me feel good.
October 20 at 1:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Hey here's something kinda neat. The Japanese word for a haiku master is "haijin," which is a homonym for the word meaning "crippled person."
October 20 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Boyer White privilege is a different form of "Shut up"
October 20 at 1:06pm · Like
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John Boyer Does that mean haiku are only written by those whose power of poetry is crippled?
October 20 at 1:06pm · Like
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Isak Benedict When I can't follow the claims of TNET denizens I resort to haiku and related trivia.
October 20 at 1:07pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If it is true, and I think it is, that there is a privileged few in the United States that have a collection of money, power and influence, I don't see how it follows that similarly hued people benefit from that, Samantha.
October 20 at 1:08pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe homonym
October 20 at 1:07pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Michael, not *everyone* of a similar hue of course; but your question is in fact addressed by people who talk about these things
October 20 at 1:09pm · Like
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Isak Benedict yes, homonym
October 20 at 1:10pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I can' recall a sufficient (outside the backpack) answer
October 20 at 1:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I've decided I don't know enough about what is meant by "white privilege" to continue.
October 20 at 1:10pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I think John Boyer thought you said synonym, Isak
October 20 at 1:11pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer I did.
October 20 at 1:12pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Michael, the idea is that the oligarchy subsidized the nascent "middle class" of the 20th c and racialized it in order to divide the working class by creating specious affinities between the new "middle class" and the oligarchy along lines of color and holding out the (mostly fake) carrot of upward mobility for members of the middle class
October 20 at 1:13pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so white privilege refers to the middle-class WASPish whites?
October 20 at 1:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia how can one tell the difference?
October 20 at 1:17pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante well, it's usually used more ineptly than that; but that is the smarter take
October 20 at 1:18pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante accent, financial profile, residence patterns
October 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Even if (even if) the quasi-historical account you gave is true, how does this general "honky-building" apply to any specific person?
October 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante oh you mean the difference between the smart and inept uses?
October 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so not by looking
October 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no, you got what I meant
October 20 at 1:19pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Got it John
October 20 at 1:20pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante they would say it doesn't apply to specific persons in the abstract; it applies primarily to structures of social exchange in which specific people "fit" by being "cast" or scripted in
October 20 at 1:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so it is sort of like saying "all black men are criminals"?
October 20 at 1:24pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Hard core racism is in the uppermost class. Cynics that lay guilt trips on the rest for their own crimes. Clandestine disciples of Margaret Sanger, not a few of them. If you live in the hood, you might see the absurdities.
October 20 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Michael, critical race theorists say white privilege is the "positive"-prejudice obverse of those kinds of judgements, right; so, it can be formulated as an implicit maxim: "all majority members, all other things being equal, are presumed legit", thus the obverse of the kind of negative prejudicial judgement you mention. But no one says, btw, that a sweating shaking tweaker who hasn't showered in weeks and is wearing dirty jeans and t shirt is going to get benefit of the doubt if he walks into Neiman Marcus just because he is Anglo-Saxon
October 20 at 1:29pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia or creepy mustachioed guys at a daycare....
October 20 at 1:29pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right, serious critical race theorists, agree with them on the whole or not, are smart enough to account for those objections and apparent exceptions, which are based on a misapprehension of what CRT people are claiming about how it all works
October 20 at 1:31pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe <<critical race theorists say white privilege is the "positive"-prejudice obverse of those kinds of judgements, right; so, it can be formulated as an implicit maxim: "all majority members, all other things being equal, are presumed legit", thus the obverse of the kind of negative prejudicial judgement you mention.>> This seems correct to me. Do you disagree with the race theorists on this, Jehoshaphat?
October 20 at 1:33pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe ^^edited so as to no longer be a non-sensical fragment of a quote
October 20 at 1:34pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think there's something to what the cr theorists are saying, sure
October 20 at 1:34pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe That's pretty much all Daniel and I were trying to say. You stepped in assuming a higher level of conversation than was going on, I think.
October 20 at 1:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia however, it isn't predictive. (at least as far as I can see
October 20 at 1:36pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I assume the best of TAC alums.
October 20 at 1:36pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante so yes it sounds like I agree with you and and Big Angry, Samantha
October 20 at 1:38pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Pardon a quick announcement for people of all colors: For those of you who have never been to the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Canada, this is the year to go: Hamlet, Love's Labour's Lost, Pericles, the Taming of the Shrew, and Oedipus Rex. Should we organize a tNET trip?
October 20 at 1:39pm · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Even some Canadian actors there!
October 20 at 1:39pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I WANT TO GO SO BAD
October 20 at 1:39pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante they have Shakespeare in Canada?
October 20 at 1:40pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Caleb Cohoe and I used to go every summer. His family lives about an hour from Stratford.
October 20 at 1:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Strange, eh?
October 20 at 1:40pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Even stranger, they have *good* Shakespeare.
October 20 at 1:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Maybe we can rent his house for a week?
October 20 at 1:41pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante pretty good for a US border town!
October 20 at 1:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Over the years at Stratford--having first gone there in 1980--I have repeatedly heard the actors say that it is the best classical theatre in North America.
October 20 at 1:43pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond But hey, what do actors know?
October 20 at 1:43pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe hm. His dad has the house on the farm now. It's therefore a disaster. But there are other, more charming farmhouses around we could rent.
October 20 at 1:44pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond tNet meets Shakespeare. A match made in Heaven.
October 20 at 1:49pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Spring Green American Players Theatre are quite good in WI. And the outdoor theatre is wonderful.
October 20 at 1:53pm · Edited · Like
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Samantha Cohoe If this tNET meet up ever really happens, it's going to be weird.
October 20 at 1:50pm · Like · 5
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Jeffrey Bond Would it be a comedy of errors? or all's well that ends well? or perhaps a remake of Titus Andronicus?
October 20 at 1:54pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson If we can't afford Elton to entertain us, maybe we can pool in and get Shatner instead.
October 20 at 1:57pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson We will need an ample supply of drinking horns.
October 20 at 1:59pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 20 at 2:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 20 at 2:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 20 at 2:00pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson
Matthew J. Peterson's photo.
October 20 at 2:00pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson I will bring The Federalist.
October 20 at 2:00pm · Like · 5
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Matthew J. Peterson Multiple Haiku competitions.
October 20 at 2:01pm · Like · 5
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Isak Benedict There will be a drum circle and haiku session
October 20 at 2:01pm · Like · 4
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Matthew J. Peterson A gnosis tent
October 20 at 2:02pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe I call the lion drinking horn.
October 20 at 2:02pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Probably also a few people wandering around in troll or peregrine falcon costumes as mascots dispensing booze and good zany cheer to all
October 20 at 2:07pm · Edited · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia here goes:
http://www.theonion.com/.../dude-with-knit-hat-at-party.../
Dude With Knit Hat At Party Calls Beer ‘Libations’
PROVIDENCE, RI—Sources attending a house party...
THEONION.COM
October 20 at 2:08pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil And an interfaith blessing, to reflect tNET's diversity?
October 20 at 2:11pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^isnt that what the Novus Ordo already is?
October 20 at 2:13pm · Like · 8
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Michael Beitia bwahahahahaha
October 20 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Zing!
October 20 at 2:14pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Huh. We'll probably have to agree not to establish...
October 20 at 2:15pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia non-establishment
Peterson won't be rocking
confessional boat
October 20 at 2:17pm · Like · 4
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Samantha Cohoe I'll go off to the edge of the party every once in a while with Catherine Joliat Feil or Jehoshaphat Escalante to have private conversations about everyone else.
October 20 at 2:20pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahahaha
October 20 at 2:20pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict .
the self and other
the endless hall of mirrors -
there are no more kings
October 20 at 2:22pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil All of these suggestions sound good, except for Matthew J. Peterson's Federalist idea. That kind of a sounds like a buzzkill. (Sorry!)
October 20 at 2:22pm · Like · 2
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Brian Kemple I'll be riding a golf-cart in the surrounds. Every so often I'll drive into the midst and start pointing at people screaming "You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong! You're kinda right!" and then flee, flinging out semi-nonsensical pamphlets that are really just advertisements to read my dissertation.
October 20 at 2:23pm · Like · 6
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Samantha Cohoe I vote we go in the comedy of errors direction with the party, rather than the Titus Andronicus one.
October 20 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Mostly because I suspect I'd be the one who ended up with her tongue cut out.
October 20 at 2:24pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil There will be a fight over whether we should serve IPAs or not.
October 20 at 2:24pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe And just for fun, I'll break out pumpkin ales to see what havoc ensues.
October 20 at 2:25pm · Like
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Michael Beitia No there won't, IPAs or nothing
October 20 at 2:25pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia pumpkin IPAs
October 20 at 2:25pm · Like
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Isak Benedict .
the lager lovers
against the heathen hopheads -
TNET bloodbath
October 20 at 2:25pm · Like · 7
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Brian Kemple It's okay Michael. I'll have a cooler full of IPAs on the golf cart.
October 20 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^38383
#palindromegnosis
October 20 at 2:26pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil The problem with the tNET meet up is that we would waste excellent tNET fodder on actual conversation. Unnatural!
October 20 at 2:28pm · Like · 3
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John Boyer We could only converse on our smartphones?
October 20 at 2:28pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict IPAs are the superior beers.
October 20 at 2:29pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Not trying to restart the argument! (But IPA lovers are like people who drown their food in hot sauce. They pick one note over complexity.)
October 20 at 2:31pm · Like · 5
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Brian Kemple Pah, buh, bah, gugh. Nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense.
October 20 at 2:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia DAMN RIGHT!
October 20 at 2:33pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia (except hot sauce has complexity)
October 20 at 2:33pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Yes, there are so many different shades of spicy.
October 20 at 2:34pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil If there were a tNET meetup, it would have to feature the awarding of superlatives.
October 20 at 2:35pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia <----- Biggest jerk
October 20 at 2:38pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe eh. I don't know, Michael.
October 20 at 2:39pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil Most Irascible, Most Creative Trolling, Most Changed Since TAC, Etc.
October 20 at 2:39pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe I think I might vote to give that one to Aaron Gigliotti.
October 20 at 2:39pm · Like
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Michael Beitia (per body weight)
October 20 at 2:39pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Stupid phone. It posted my last two comments a full three minutes apart.
October 20 at 2:40pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti Yikes.
October 20 at 2:42pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Aaron, it's basically a compliment, on tNET
October 20 at 2:42pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil We could burn Perescott in effigy.
October 20 at 2:43pm · Like · 3
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Aaron Gigliotti #thecomingschism http://dailycaller.com/.../no-marriage-no-papacy-if-the.../
No Marriage, No Papacy: If The Pope Endorses Polygamy, That Spells The End...
DAILYCALLER.COM
October 20 at 2:45pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond All should come attired as their favorite Shakespeare character. Who would each of you be?
October 20 at 2:45pm · Like · 1
--##--%%--##--
Jeffrey Bond Or perhaps we should collectively decide the character for each tNET interlocutor?
October 20 at 2:46pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Samantha Cohoe as Kate. (Might as well live up to my billing.)
October 20 at 2:47pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Would we be able to tell one character from another by dress? Or would it just look like a 3rd-rate RenFair?
October 20 at 2:47pm · Like · 4
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Megan Baird Great! Love talk about effigies!
October 20 at 2:47pm · Like
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Megan Baird If attired as a Shakespeare character, I would be Beatrix.
October 20 at 2:47pm · Like
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Megan Baird Catherine: NOTHING TACers do is ever 3d-rate.
October 20 at 2:48pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I knew that was coming, I just didn't expect it to come from you, Aaron, you jerk.
October 20 at 2:48pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil (I guess we'd feel right at home, if it did, since TAC always had its fair share of corsets.)
October 20 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond My dear Lady Disdain, are you yet living?
October 20 at 2:48pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe It could be one of those cool updated Branaugh versions, where we all dress as Russian aristocrats, or whatever
October 20 at 2:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Megan Baird-- except for lab experiments.
October 20 at 2:49pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird "I wonder that you still be talking, Signor...nobody marks you."
October 20 at 2:50pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Can I be Viola instead? Please?
October 20 at 2:50pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Or dance entertainment. I can think of lots of others, too.
October 20 at 2:50pm · Like
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Megan Baird Or maybe I'll come as Puck...
October 20 at 2:51pm · Like
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Michael Beitia If we get to be Shakespeare characters, then I can bust out with a kilt....
October 20 at 2:52pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Good choice.
October 20 at 2:52pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Isak is Puck. Sorry
October 20 at 2:52pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia pants are so confining.
October 20 at 2:52pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I can picture all the tNET men showing up as Hamlet. All those Hamlets would be like all those Hitlers auditioning in The Producers.
October 20 at 2:54pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia so we're just going to ignore Zmirak? wise choice.
October 20 at 2:54pm · Like
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Megan Baird There's no one else quite like Puck, though......
October 20 at 2:55pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti You can ignore him, but he's not alone. I think it's worth considering. Anyhow, I found myself nodding as I read it.
October 20 at 2:55pm · Like
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Megan Baird Perhaps Titania.
October 20 at 2:56pm · Like
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Claire Keeler I played Titania in my senior play in high school! Highlight of my life.
October 20 at 2:58pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Isak as Puck or Feste?
October 20 at 2:58pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Puck. Adrw could be Feste, maybe.
October 20 at 2:59pm · Like · 1
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Megan Baird I'd say both but one cannot be two things "at the same time and in the same respect."
There are just some habits of mind I cannot shake.
October 20 at 3:00pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Catherine that is an astonishing and severe oversimplification of a good IPA's effect on the palate. It's definitely not "one note." Same with a good hot sauce.
October 20 at 3:00pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict And wait why would I be Puck? Although I do have a mug on my desk that says "Lord, what fools these mortals be" on it...
October 20 at 3:03pm · Like · 2
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Adrw Lng Thanks?
October 20 at 3:04pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict I've always wanted to play Puck as a scary, dangerous, possibly deadly entity - the duende, if you will. I am tired of the flighty, high-pitched Pucks.
October 20 at 3:06pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Is Hamlet so popular today because of his narcisism?
October 20 at 3:06pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Yeah. You're that Puck.
October 20 at 3:07pm · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Dr. Spaceman could be Prospero.
October 20 at 3:08pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Ryland Favorite character=Malvolio.
October 20 at 3:08pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Ryland Not sure if I would dress up as him though.
October 20 at 3:09pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Perhaps. But Hamlet transcends it after wrestling with Laertes in the grave. His old self dies there.
October 20 at 3:09pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Puck is an imp. Getting tagged Puck, I'd be upset. (Note the last conversation with Titania and Oberon.)
October 20 at 3:10pm · Like
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Isak Benedict Catherine I played Malvolio!!
October 20 at 3:12pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Interesting. I didn't see him transcend it. But I am always so critical.
October 20 at 3:12pm · Like
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Catherine Ryland Most excellent!
October 20 at 3:13pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Puck is a brilliant imp. He's my favorite. It wasn't an insult.
October 20 at 3:14pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Samantha Cohoe, though unworthy of the role of Prospero, I am deeply honored by your suggestion.
October 20 at 3:15pm · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson I've only ever played Demetrius, and I'm not sure I want to identify with him....
October 20 at 3:15pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss I played Olivia. Viola would have been more fun, but the other leading lady was six feet tall so that was the obvious choice.
October 20 at 3:15pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Hamlet is popular because he has no objective correlative. And neither do we.
October 20 at 3:16pm · Like
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Jon Andrew Greig Sorry to interrupt the flow (but then again what else is new on that front?), but---hahah, wow, genius on the current header, Matthew J. Peterson. Due to the deficit of this where I am now, IPA. And yes we should all just meet for crying loud out.
October 20 at 3:20pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Say more, Rebecca Bratten Weiss.
October 20 at 3:21pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond About Hamlet, that is.
October 20 at 3:22pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Hamlet mirrors our times in some profound way I think. It was unpopular a long time. But I don't know what objective correlative means.
October 20 at 3:22pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Oh wow Sean I saw you play Demetrius I think - was it at TAC?
October 20 at 3:27pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante we just need to show up on Alumni Day and constitute a schism
October 20 at 3:28pm · Like · 3
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Sean Robertson Haha, nope. 8th grade.
October 20 at 3:28pm · Like
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Sean Robertson If you mean two years ago, that was Jack Grimm, I think.
October 20 at 3:28pm · Like
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Isak Benedict ^that
October 20 at 3:29pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Who goes to alumni day?
October 20 at 3:30pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Oh darn.
October 20 at 3:30pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I'm not exactly sure either what Rebecca Bratten Weiss means, but hopefully she will tell us. I would venture to say that Hamlet does have an "objective correlative," and that is Providence. Although Providence can obviously have no correlative strictly speaking, the human person, as microcosmos, is the only possible mirror of the Divine.
October 20 at 3:32pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeff Neill Who drinks lager and why? Did you run out of Zima?
October 20 at 3:32pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Jeffrey is right: Hamlet most certainly does find his way by objective coordinates. His problem is one of will.
October 20 at 3:34pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed. How do you think his will is made right?
October 20 at 3:37pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm not sure it is, really; at least, it's never more than just half-rectified.
October 20 at 3:40pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict When he surrenders it, which he indicates by saying "There's providence in the fall of a sparrow."
October 20 at 3:40pm · Like
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Megan Baird I did my thesis on Hamlet. (Heavily influenced by Soren Filipski). I always did have a fascination with that play.
October 20 at 3:42pm · Edited · Like
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Isak Benedict And then "Let be." Fiat.
October 20 at 3:41pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Isak, that moment has more to do with vision than with will I think
October 20 at 3:41pm · Like
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Isak Benedict But his new vision is a result of the surrender of his will.
October 20 at 3:42pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right, what that solves (partly) is the question of legitimation. Hamlet's problem is that right public order, in a time of crisis, has become private revelation (the appearance of the father). Hamlet never does muster the manhood to reinstitute public order; he never succeeds, in either sense of that word, as heir. He corrects public wrongs as if a private person, and thus his public place is taken by Fortinbras.
October 20 at 3:44pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti Q:"Who drinks lager and why?" A: People who don't feel like waking up at 3 am with a massive headache to accidentally pee on the refrigerator. AKA the entire world of humans without ironic facial hair.
October 20 at 3:45pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I have no facial hair, and a great love for peeing on refrigerators.
October 20 at 3:46pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Sorry that was unclear: what I mean is, Hamlet is paralyzed because he knows he is right, but the machinery of public order is now wrong, but he feels obligated to recognize it as somehow still legitimate. The vision of a bigger Providence clears that up for him, by way of giving him a bigger frame of legitimation than the polity of Denmark
October 20 at 3:47pm · Edited · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti I once peed on my stove, but that involved a martini ice luge.
October 20 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I love to pee on refrigerators.
October 20 at 3:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict So did Hamlet.
October 20 at 3:47pm · Like
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Isak Benedict WWHD?
October 20 at 3:47pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia in them too
October 20 at 3:47pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante the thread is in ecstasy at this moment
October 20 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia #peeingonappliancesgnosis
October 20 at 3:48pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe you guys are gross
October 20 at 3:48pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict But Hamlet IS the arbiter of right public order.
October 20 at 3:48pm · Like
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Isak Benedict In Denmark, that is.
October 20 at 3:48pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante right, but he never acts like it.
October 20 at 3:49pm · Like
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Michael Beitia so, what's the tallest thing you've ever peed off of?
October 20 at 3:49pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond There is a suggestion at the end, is there not, that Fortinbras is the resurrected Hamlet?
October 20 at 3:49pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Eliot's critique of Hamlet is that there is no objective correlative, in the plot, to correspond to his level of despair. This appeals to us post-moderns who may feel similarly despairing even though on an objective level our lives are good. Walker Percy might say something about our being lost in the cosmos.
I agree with Eliot....and l add that, deprived of an objective correlative, Hamlet creates one: by the end of the play there's plenty to despair about.
We create our own ruin.
October 20 at 3:49pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante he knows he is right, but he solves the problems privately, like a private detective cum assassin
October 20 at 3:49pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Fortinbras is certainly the heir of Hamlet, and thus continuous with him in medieval political thinking
October 20 at 3:50pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think Eliot was projecting, as the shrinks say
October 20 at 3:50pm · Like · 1
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Sean Robertson CURRENT DISCUSSION:
WHAT IF WE ALL MET UP, DRANK IPAS, AND PEED IN A REFRIGERATOR WHILE WEARING SHAKESPEAREAN COSTUMES.
October 20 at 3:51pm · Like · 6
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss What if actually the old king was a tyrant, and Claudius killed him to restore order?
Everyone seems happy except depressed little emo Hamlet.
October 20 at 3:51pm · Like
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Sean Robertson TAC's attendance will plummet if too many people read this thread.
October 20 at 3:52pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I think there is much merit to Jehoshaphat Escalante's read. Shakespeare points at the problem even in the title where Hamlet is identified as the Prince of Denmark.
October 20 at 3:52pm · Like · 3
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Sean: the peeing part will be harder for females.
October 20 at 3:52pm · Like · 2
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Aaron Gigliotti Pee ON a refrigerator, Sean. Peeing IN a refrigerator is a bit much.
October 20 at 3:52pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rebecca, on that hypothesis, Claudius would be a first Hamlet, so to speak
October 20 at 3:52pm · Like
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Eliot wore green face powder and faked an accent...so yeah, maybe.
October 20 at 3:53pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Rebecca, do you see what I mean in my comment just above?
October 20 at 3:53pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante (I'm also a ferocious Eliot hater and thus sort of biased)
October 20 at 3:54pm · Like
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John Ruplinger I tend towards Escalante's view. The private swallows the public good in Hamlet. True of Laertes too. There are but two lines that refer to the irregular ascension of Claudius. Hamlet hardly thinks on it. His private grief consumes all.
October 20 at 3:57pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond I, on the other hand, love Eliot, but I think he is mistaken here. Hamlet does not create an objective correlative. Providence has its way with Hamlet, despite his rashness. And to Hamlet's credit, he sees himself as Providence sees him and accepts it.
October 20 at 3:56pm · Edited · Like · 4
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss People who work at other colleges have been paid to contribute to this thread by making comments about micturation, to encourage enrollment in their own institutions.
October 20 at 3:56pm · Like · 2
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Rebecca Bratten Weiss Mingo ergo sum
October 20 at 3:56pm · Like · 4
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Jeff Neill In a time of great need.... I was relieved
October 20 at 3:56pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante MINGO ERGO SUM! tNET has a motto
October 20 at 3:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Hamlet achieves something akin to "imperfect contrition" when it comes to making right his will. While not perfect, it is enough to dethrone Claudius which is what he was called to do.
October 20 at 3:59pm · Like · 4
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^exactly
October 20 at 4:01pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante he is a private actor, but manages to effect public change, just not as a public principle
October 20 at 4:02pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Because I am doomed for a certain term to commute home,
Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature
Are burnt and purged away,
I must leave this most auspicious conversation,
With fond hopes of returning to find precious gold.
Adieu, adieu, adieu. Remember me.
October 20 at 4:06pm · Like · 5
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Joshua Kenz Daniel Lendman if it is worth anything, when I first saw your face I assumed you were dumber than you are.
Also, I wasn't aware there was such a thing as black people until maybe 4th grade, when my best friend's parents explained race to me when they pulled their son out of public school after he was called the n-word. come to think of it my best friend before him was also black.... I honestly was "race-blind" before 4th grade. Weird how thinking back on it we were all much the same as small children....
October 20 at 4:30pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger In response to Rebecca, I think there is a privatization among the entire aristocracy and that is why they are "happy". Denmark is rotten and not just the king. It is telling that we should excuse or overlook Hamlet's faults or even extoll them and certainly not see them; they are our own. Certainly I see more of Hamlet in myself than I would wish. It touches close. And it is surprising that Eliot didn't see it.
October 20 at 4:32pm · Like
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John Boyer Josh, you are a Face-ist
October 20 at 4:40pm · Like · 1
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Jonathan Watson I suspect that Hamlet is following direction from a questionable spirit, and that the murder of his father is much less obvious than Hamlet would like.
October 20 at 4:41pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson " Above all, the State cannot ignore the contemplation of God because it is the highest natural virtue, the virtue supported by all the other natural virtues, and therefore a chief concern of the State which by its very nature must be concerned with virtue."
This is the mantra. This is what tweed wearing great books conservatives of the religious variety say to one another. Maybe we'd add in "human flourishing" or "thriving." Let's assume it to be absolutely true.
Even so, we'd have to think a bit about the fact that if you asked most people in any Christian society at any time throughout history if it were functionally true (how does the government help you contemplate God?) they would laugh in your face. And most would not see this as not, ahem, NOT a very proximate end of the state in any way whatsoever. Why? Why did most Christian regimes spend most their time dealing with the same political problems as everyone else rather than holding court about virtue based on bold assertions that the contemplation of God is the highest natural virtue? Especially at the national or kingdom level, but even at the local community level. In fact, it was generally specific sub-groups that would seem to even really try to live this contemplative life, often supported by or protected by the state.
And we'd have to think about HOW, exactly, law and government can and cannot promote virtue. We'd have to think about what, exactly, is necessary for virtue to begin with - there seem to be some necessities that we need to procure to live, and what to do about that is also disputed, and what most of political life is about. We'd have to start looking at real history and real life in order to really grasp what these sentences might mean or imply for any given political order.
We'd also have to think about the fact that your statement depends upon an afterlife and another community (church). Because while Aristotle and others did indeed propose contemplation as the highest end of man, they also had a problem - someone has to take out the garbage. It was assumed that many people would simply be instruments such that the worthy could so contemplate. Christianity introduces a certain kind of equality here, but it would be absurd to suppose it could be attained in this life. This is a rather deep problem.
Perhaps technology might help, but people who espouse these sentences usually decry technology and assume they have somehow reconciled contradictions - we should all contemplate in common, without slaves or servants or low paying jobs or machines. Come the revolution.
Romanticism lurks around every corner whenever one hears such lines without qualification, even if we hold them true. The question is what they mean and how they ought to shape politics in real life.
October 20 at 4:44pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson is Henry Bolingbroke. When you get a tenure-track job, you can ascend to Henry IV.
October 20 at 4:49pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "Turning then to the First Amendment, it becomes immediately clear that the American regime neglects its duty to order the lives of its citizens toward God. While the First Amendment gives men the liberty in a physical sense to read the Bible, go to Mass, say the rosary, etc., nevertheless these men are lacking what Leo XIII calls the "moral liberty" that is proper to a rational nature. Men governed by the First Amendment lack moral liberty because the regime refuses in principle to distinguish between true and false religion."
This is simply false.
First, the First Amendment could be legally changed at any time via a set process. Convince a vast majority and hold it over time, and you can change it.
Second, at the time the 1st Amendment was passed several states HAD STATE RELIGION IN PLACE. Laws written by state governments did indeed distinguish between true and false religion by regulating behavior in regard to virtue. And this continued for a long, long, time. The outlawing of bigamy close to a century later is a prime example. The underlying assumption was clearly some form of Protestantism and whatever overlapped with it. This is why there was such a debate over the public schools a century later: they did INDEED think that their government ought to distingiish between true religion and false.
SO AMERICAN GOVERNMENTS DID DISTINGUISH BETWEEN TRUE AND FALSE RELIGION, BOTH AS TO SPECIFIC SECT AND IN REGARD TO BEHAVIOR.
Third, the contention that the law ought to make such statements could easily be disputed: if man has a rational nature, he can figure that out in community outside of what mere parchment tells him. Determining true and false religion belongs to the realm of theology and philosophy, not legislation. What law pertains to directly is very specific behavior and concrete action. What you wish for here is really a "prelude" and not an actual law.
Fourth, American history from the start until right now is full of people speaking against absolute liberty and legislating based on the notion of moral liberty - explicitly so - from Cotton Mather through the founding era on out.
October 20 at 4:53pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia tl; dr, Matthew J. Peterson
Michael Beitia's photo.
October 20 at 4:53pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia Home from"work"
October 20 at 4:53pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson " Even were all men to agree that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, the establishment clause would prohibit its being favored in any way by the State."
No, because as written the states could favor the Church. And as it is now this is also false, because the Constitution could be changed.
October 20 at 4:54pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "True liberty of worship is therefore necessarily neglected, and it is neglected by design. Each religion is given the same liberty (in the physical sense) of worshiping as it pleases because the American regime willingly permits a multiplicity of antagonistic views about the final end of man. There is no recognized public authority to show which religion leads to truth."
Those views permitted were indeed restricted by law. They were not as antagonistic as all that. This is also false. Public authority routinely invoked God and prayer and worship. The capitol building had prayer services. Etc. But yes, there was no governmental office of theology and philosophy. But then, who does that?
October 20 at 4:57pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "Ironically, however, the First Amendment does establish, contrary to its own stated position, a pseudo religion of indifferentism as the one true faith that will save man. Since this is the public position, and since man is a political animal, this establishment of the non-estatblishment principle is enthroned in the soul where the truth should rule. The true religion then becomes at best a private matter for individuals, while all the weight of public authority supports indifference to man's highest end."
Again, non-establishment did not apply to the states. The public position was not mere indifferentism. Religion was not merely private.
October 20 at 5:00pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson " The American government readily imposes its moral authority in so-called non-religious areas of life--the environment, dating rules, hate speech, etc.--but it teaches souls to view religion as of little importance, just so many idiosyncratic ways of looking at the world, "
There are no non-religious areas - the government reflects the people. People disagree with you. Things used to be different. Public education used to be different. What changed first? The government or the people?
October 20 at 5:02pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson "It is no wonder, then, that Leo XIII wrote in Immortale Dei that "it is a public crime to act as though there were no God. So, too, is it a sin for the State not to have care for religion as a something beyond its scope, or as of no practical benefit; or out of many forms of religion to adopt that one which chimes in with the fancy; for we are bound absolutely to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will. All who rule, therefore, would hold in honor the holy name of God, and one of their chief duties must be to favor religion, to protect it, to shield it under the credit and sanction of the laws, and neither to organize nor enact any measure that may compromise its safety. This is the bounden duty of rulers to the people over whom they rule." "
HAH. Yes, and this IS WHY THEY WENT WITH RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL. To favor, protect, and shield it under the credit and sanction of law and make sure no other sect could organize or enact any measure that might compromise its safety. Thankfully for Catholicism, this allowed it to exist here despite Sam Adams and friends.
This is also why the vast majority of people, elites and non, all explicitly stated the importance of religion for the sake of morality. This is said over and over again. And to protect religion, they thought they needed religious liberty to keep the sects from warring and oppressing each other. Because that is what the entire Christian world had been doing for centuries up to that point. KILLING each other. Fighting each other. Trying to dominate each other. The new approach called this off, and all thought it would indeed protect and nurture religion.
October 20 at 5:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia what changed first? You interlectual types ramming your godless Madisonian morality down our throats.
October 20 at 5:07pm · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson ^Right - that is the ridiculous historical assertion that I think laughable.
October 20 at 5:07pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger How is Hamlet's will incorrect? How rectified? Certainly he seemed unable to act without the knowledge of another's conscience (which he didn't achieve though he thought he had), and once certain he wanted to exact revenge "like God", thus carrying his vengeance like grief beyond limit. But his realization that all is governed by God's providence prompts a submissive inaction that merely takes advantage of circumstance. He does not openly confront Claudius. Providence, not Hamlet, restores order. Fortinbras alone takes steps to right perceived wrongs. But I guess I am wondering what is wrong with Hamlet's will that is partly corrected?
October 20 at 5:11pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson So in the face of warring sects of Christians (which is a direct affront to God if there ever was one), and the reality of the ceaseless divisions and strife amongst them, all were willing to allow for the First Amendment at the time on the federal level. States could (and in some ways still can) legislate about whatever they wished outside of the enumerated powers of the Constitution. What we see today is a much, much later development that in many ways clearly violates the First Amendment as written (which has to do with laws of Congress establishing religion - not what city councils might wish to do for Christmas).
Obviously, the main concern for everyone was far more visceral - they weren't writing a theological tract, but trying to figure out how to stabilize things on a very practical level. In so doing, the idea of establishing a religion at the federal level made little sense. To protect their religion, many sects begged for such an Amendment in order to protect and nurture their religion.
All thought that reason and revelation roughly overlapped when it came to virtue, and they understand revelation and religion as some version of Christianity. If you weren't Christian, so long as you acted like one when it came to civic virtues you were OK.
October 20 at 5:13pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia they lacked the
#perpetualrevolutiongnosis
October 20 at 5:16pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson If this is disagreeable to anyone, it is likely because they don't care about the reality on the ground. They want to ignore the fact that people disagreed about man's highest and last end. Well, tough. There are only two options, and continuous gradation between them: you can force people to agree with you, or you can persuade them.
Many in our circles talk a great game when it comes to critique. But they have no solutions. Blaming economics and politics for higher and deeper problems is...awful modern.
The form of the regime is fine enough. It is the substance of our ideas that is the problem, and their change in response to challenges: the utter failure of institutions and communities within this large and boisterous regime over time to address their opponents effectively. Protestantism contributes greatly to its own decline.
October 20 at 5:18pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia so let me sum up this veritable outpouring of text from you - the form is fine, people suck. sucky people get you what we've got
October 20 at 5:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Joel HF: how do you think the form of our regime has substantially changed?
October 20 at 5:19pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Mike - well, I think our religious and educational institutions have failed to make their case and use their strength against their opponents.
October 20 at 5:20pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't see that as the Constitution's fault. Hell, the Constitution allows you to do whatever the hell you want if you get enough people to agree.
October 20 at 5:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I'm still pulling for the perpetual revolution..... but I can't convince enough people
October 20 at 5:25pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Is it the Constitution's fault that the cradle-to-PhD grave educational system just goes with the flow?
There is a serious chicken or egg problem here - if one needs establishment - specific establishment and neat order between church and state (which has never existed, of course, in the free and easy and ordered manner in which it is always spoken of in these discussions) - if one wants that, HOW does one get it?
Politically, you gotta go to the one, the few, or the many, to the extent to which they are in charge, and convince them - regardless of the regime form. Unless, of course, you think force is the answer. Which a growing amount of embattled religious folks do. Especially because they reject the whole "consent of the governed" bit in favor of "it is the office of the wise to rule" without seriously considering or offering solutions to the obvious problems that getting rid of consent creates.
October 20 at 5:26pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Very Jeffersonian of you.
October 20 at 5:26pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia seriously (which I don't offer politically very often) "consent of the governed is key" because it is a sine qua non of government, regardless of whether it is the "divine right of kings".
October 20 at 5:28pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia and even if force is the answer, you still gotta have the plebs, or they all leave and go sit on Mons Sacer
October 20 at 5:32pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, for one thing, most of what you've said about the establishment clause is now false. For another thing, the modern federal government now has massive bureaucracies that wouldn't have existed before.
October 20 at 5:39pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson-- the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments also radically altered the regime, along with the 17th amendment. But if one wants to talk about the "real world" as you seem to, one should also recognize the limits of our constitution written 226 years ago in describing our current regime.
October 20 at 5:43pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF Michael Beitia, what is "consent of the governed"?
October 20 at 5:44pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia that they don't drag you to the guillotine.
October 20 at 5:44pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Divine right didn't do much for Louis the Last
October 20 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF I have the strangest feeling of deja-vu
October 20 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF #eternalreturngnosis
October 20 at 5:45pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia authority is a populist deceit. without the "noble lie" of authority, we'd have a lot more assassinations.
October 20 at 5:46pm · Like
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Joel HF Oh wait, you meant that the governed don't drag the rulers? I was thinking the consent was the ruled consenting in lieu of getting their 'eds lopped off.
October 20 at 5:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia you've got it backwards
October 20 at 5:47pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Yes, the establishment clause is now used in very different ways than what was intended and what it very obviously says. We can get into that as well. What is ridiculous is thinking you can easily blame those changes on some "evil seeds" within the First Amendment itself given the history which is readily available to you.
October 20 at 5:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia there are more of "us" than "them"
October 20 at 5:47pm · Like
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John Ruplinger To deny the establishment clause is heresy, Joel. I mean, of course, in theory it can be denied. But in practise its shouting matches and anyways leads only to interminable religious wars.
October 20 at 5:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, I am not speaking yet about today - I'm talking about the reality on the ground back then in defense of what was originally there. But self-destructive sophistry don't care none about that.
October 20 at 5:48pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The other amendments do change things. Some change makes sense, some doesn't. But you can hardly pretend that those amendments changed the underlying form of the regime. They altered things. But they didn't give the one or the few ultimate power, etc.
October 20 at 5:49pm · Like
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Joel HF No, I also don't pretend the relationship between federal and state is at all the same.
October 20 at 5:52pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But whatever comforts us, no? For some, it is inevitable decline. For others, inevitable progress.
October 20 at 5:53pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF The English still have a monarch, but their form of government hasn't been that of a monarchy for a long while.
October 20 at 5:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia #Lincolnwasatyrantgnosis
October 20 at 5:55pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The relationship between the states and federal government is obviously not the same as it once was.
October 20 at 5:54pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF My claim isn't that Lincoln was a tyrant. The South had it coming. But starting with Lincoln and even more in the last century, the form changed, imo.
October 20 at 5:55pm · Unlike · 3
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Joel HF This was probably inevitable.
October 20 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But here you run into problems. Heh. Don't you WANT the federal government to ESTABLISH religion, for God's sake? Which is it? Don't you WANT the federal government to establish VIRTUE? Heh.
October 20 at 5:56pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia it has to keep changing. Stasis is bad in politics
October 20 at 5:56pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I think it was ambiguous at first, and then it solidified and changed over time. Probably inevitable and needed in some ways, although not all.
October 20 at 5:57pm · Like
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Joel HF Matthew J. Peterson, it is increasingly evident that you have all sorts of unwarranted assumptions about what I think. Heh.
October 20 at 5:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The principle was there from the present, however. The Federalists were moderated by the state-lovers, but they created something that was open ended in many ways towards doing more at the federal level.
October 20 at 5:58pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm just poking at you.
October 20 at 5:58pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson But the great contradiction in these circles is often that people will bitch and moan about virtue and education and religion at the federal level and then turn around and complain about how powerful the feds actually are.
October 20 at 5:59pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson And they will whine about the need for the wise to rule and how awesome aristocracy is and then complain about the one we got.
October 20 at 6:00pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger We don't distinguish between articles of peace of 1789 and a doctrine that has practical consequences today. If the establishment clause is treated as a political-religious what are the consequences? Is religion not privatized and made a matter of private opinion?
October 20 at 6:01pm · Like
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Joel HF That isn't actually a contradiction.
October 20 at 6:01pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia Peterson, you are straw-manning. Even the Peterson contra mundi title of the post is misleading.
October 20 at 6:01pm · Unlike · 3
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Michael Beitia wise =/= rich
October 20 at 6:02pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia John, truth is universal, the Church is always true. the apprehension of such by individuals is private. It cannot be otherwise
October 20 at 6:03pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson No, it is indeed a political contradiction. We have an educational system that creates an aristocratic element, and we have aristocratic elements in our constitutional system. The problem is not structural. IT IS THE FACT THAT WE DISAGREE ABOUT WHAT VIRTUE IS.
October 20 at 6:04pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The feds do make laws relating to virtue. They have the power people seek. But we disagree about what virtue is. We have an aristocratic educational system. But we disagree about what ought to be taught.
October 20 at 6:05pm · Like
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Michael Beitia being able to drain a drinking horn of IPA in one swig - virtue
October 20 at 6:05pm · Like · 4
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Catherine Joliat Feil I want to hear why Jehoshaphat Escalante hates Eliot so ferociously.
October 20 at 6:06pm · Like · 5
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John Ruplinger No, Peterson. I think we have moved beyond that. We disagree whether there is virtue.
October 20 at 6:08pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Put it this way: if Christianity wasn't divided, early America would have had establishment in some manner at all levels. What caused disestablishment was mainly Protestantism's inability to keep unified, not some sort of nihilism.
October 20 at 6:14pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger Certainly we still argue about right and wrong as the zeitgeist blows (based on what feels good and is fair, meaning equal for all and unimposing on others). But virtue?
October 20 at 6:14pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Re virtue: well, we still do want to instill habits of behavior and habits of thought - liberalism of today's sort wants to pretend otherwise but such pretense is absurd.
October 20 at 6:48pm · Edited · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson In fact, contrary to what many people think today, most of the church-state questions and problems of the middle ages are not resolved. Many may simply not be resolvable. But what happened is that America found a way to keep on trucking in the face of sectarian protestantism and stop the bleeding. But if Christianity were one, regardless of what it said officially, we would be right back into the same situation as the middle ages with the same issues to deal with all over again.
October 20 at 6:18pm · Like
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John Ruplinger But those desired habits are guided by unreflected opinions that conform to the principles of equality, autonomy, and safety/comfort
October 20 at 6:23pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Horton By all means, stay on topic folks. Could tNET just absorb this for later digestion? http://s.telegraph.co.uk/.../the-future-is.../index.html
The real cyborgs - in-depth feature about people merging with machines
Read about the pioneers of our “post-human” future...
S.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK
October 20 at 6:22pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger tNET is absorbing us all. Merge with tNET.
October 20 at 6:38pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson When we do meet, we should call our meeting BURNING STRAWMAN
October 20 at 6:36pm · Like · 9
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Michael Beitia Uh.... Michael, that was disturbing a bit. Shall we check out body modification, old school too?
October 20 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson That article refers to a very real future we need to start thinking through now.
October 20 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Because Eliot was an absurd snob, mediocre poet, bad critic, bad man, arch, shrill, reactionary, and false in every way
October 20 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson OH SNAP
October 20 at 6:48pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger Its not fair I tell you. Beitia asserts his desire for constant revolution (which we have in ever changing laws already) and anarchy (which is the Wild West without electricity or running water or horses either). Beitia is a straw man. No need to make one up. But no. Anti-establishment is totally wild eyed cloud naming.
October 20 at 6:49pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Over there in England, affecting an accent and rejecting his Missouri roots!
October 20 at 6:50pm · Like · 4
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Michael Beitia John, your understanding of classical political anarchy makes me forgive you.
John, I forgive you for turning me into a straw man
October 20 at 6:51pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I'm headline trolling this one.
October 20 at 6:51pm · Like · 4
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John Ruplinger What is nouveau anarchy? Mad Max is optimistic imo.
October 20 at 6:53pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I could suggest some titles, if you're interested
October 20 at 6:54pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger You mean I have to read sh*t [meaning stuff ]. Can't you give some gnosis?
October 20 at 7:17pm · Edited · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Actually, I would be interested. I am uber dismissive of anarchists.
October 20 at 6:57pm · Like
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Isak Benedict No, you must endure the #shitgnosis
October 20 at 6:58pm · Like · 2
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- Amazing burn! But really, you don't even like the Wasteland?
October 20 at 6:58pm · Like
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Isak Benedict I think Eliot must have refused to go out with Jehoshaphat Escalante in a past life...
October 20 at 6:59pm · Like
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Isak Benedict #theicymittgnosis
October 20 at 6:59pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Escalante is a tease. I think Eliot is overrated but am not well enough read to say (not that that stops me usually).
October 20 at 7:14pm · Edited · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante No I don't even like Wasteland
October 20 at 7:14pm · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm a Yeats man completely
October 20 at 7:15pm · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger What specifically don't you like about him?
October 20 at 7:18pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Dish-- how was Eliot a bad man? I know almost nothing about his personal life.
October 20 at 7:19pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO. His poetry?
October 20 at 7:20pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Jehoshaphat Escalante "Absurd snob" is a pro, in my book. And do you think he was bad because of the business with the hysterical first wife?
October 20 at 7:21pm · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict I think Yeats is magnificent. I also think Eliot is magnificent. I don't understand why those are both not true for you, an otherwise estimable character but for this anti-Eliot smudge.
October 20 at 7:23pm · Like · 3
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Isak Benedict #smudgegnosis
October 20 at 7:23pm · Like · 2
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Catherine, yes, among other things
October 20 at 7:23pm · Like
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John Ruplinger NO. Why do you say his poetry is mediocre. We don't gossip on tNET: only trolling allowed.
October 20 at 7:25pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF We don't gossip on tNET? Hogwash. I came for the trolling, but stayed for the gossip.
October 20 at 7:27pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe What? Who died and made you Caesar? Gossip is totally allowed. Especially about dead poets
October 20 at 7:27pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger So, we are all just tNET characters to Isak.
October 20 at 7:27pm · Like · 1
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John Ruplinger Actually, its been mostly gossip free. And I am interested in the poetry angle.
October 20 at 7:30pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe Jehoshaphat-- come back and gossip! Don't let John think he can boss you around!
October 20 at 7:32pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Dotty. Dammitdumb. Dammit all.
Shitty Shitty Shitty
October 20 at 7:34pm · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Let the record reflect: this isn't the only smudge on Jehoshaphat Escalante's record (though he has shown himself to have good taste in many regards). He also disclosed that he "doesn't read" Russian novels, which is beyond regrettable.
October 20 at 7:47pm · Edited · Like · 3
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John Ruplinger gotcha #straussiangnosis
October 20 at 7:41pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson Wait a tick - you just don't like the Anglo-Catholic thang and so you seize on poor TS, don't you Jehoshaphat Escalante?
That first wife was a loon, no? Gotta give the poor, miserable, sensitive, depressed fellow that, I suppose.
October 20 at 7:43pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Catherine Joliat Feil Matthew J. Peterson The situation with the wife was a touch complicated. But he was pretty wrung out over it and didn't exactly take up with another woman immediately after having her committed.
October 20 at 7:44pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Also, it was kind of a bad time for women with psychiatric problems, generally, so it's not like he was receiving decent advice from anyone he knew.
October 20 at 7:46pm · Like
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Aaron Gigliotti How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Marbury v. Madison.
October 20 at 7:54pm · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.academia.edu/.../The_Ecstasy_of_Love_in...
The Ecstasy of Love in Aquinas’s Commentary on the Sentences
The Ecstasy of Love in Aquinas’s Commentary on the...
ACADEMIA.EDU|BY PETER KWASNIEWSKI
October 20 at 7:56pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson https://www.facebook.com/notes/matthew-j-peterson/philadelphia-evening-post-june-5th-1790-the-much-admired-prayer-of-thomas-aquina/10151861264025931
Matthew J. Peterson
Philadelphia Evening Post, June 5th, 1790: The Much Admired Prayer of Thomas Aquinas
Ah, the northeastern elites and their papers of record...they ain't what they used to be.
1) The following appeared in the June 5th, 1790 edition of The Federal Gazette, and Philadelphia Evening Post. It was subsequently reprinted in at least 5 other papers in major cities throughout the states. When I get time I've always wanted to research more about this, but it is clear enough that they printed it because they thought it was pretty good stuff.
The Much Admired
PRAYER Of THOMAS AQUINAS
He was by way of eminence, called DOCTOR ANGELICUS, or the Angelic doctor. This prayer he constantly made use of, before he sat down to his studies--and it is certainly fit to be used, on the same occasions, by the greatest divines.
Ineffably wise and good creator, illustrious origin, true fountain of light and wisdom, vouchsafe to infuse into my understanding some ray of thy brightness, thereby removing that two-fold darkness, under which I was born, of sin and ignorance.
Thou that makest the tongues of infants eloquent, instruct, I pray thee, my tongue likewise; and pour upon my lips the grace of thy benediction.
Give my quickness to comprehend, and memory to retain. Give me a happiness in expounding, a facility in learning, and a copious eloquence in speaking.
Prepare my entrance into knowledge; direct me in my journey, and render the event of it complete, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
2) On December 17, 1792, the following anecdote (which appears to come from the writings of Cornelius a Lapide, according to a brief interweb search) appeared in the General Advertiser, a Philadelphia newspaper. It was subsequently reprinted by at least six other newspapers in cities throughout the states:
The first time that Thomas Aquinas visited Rome, Innocent the fourth, who then filled the Pontifical chair, said to him, "You see we cannot say with St. Peter--"Silver and gold have I none." No," said Aquinas, "neither can you command, as he did, the lame to arise and walk."
Other papers altered the above, referring to Aquinas as a "subtle divine":
Of Thomas Aquinas
When this subtle divine first visited Rome, Innocent IV, who then filled the Pontifical chair, said to him, "You see we cannot say with St. Peter--Silver and gold have I none." No," said Aquinas, "neither can you command, as he did, the lame to arise and walk."
October 20 at 7:57pm · Like · 2
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Jeff Neill Where is my drinking horn?
Jeff Neill's photo.
October 20 at 8:07pm · Like · 4
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Aaron Gigliotti My kingdom for a can of Coors Light to photograph.
October 20 at 8:12pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Hops
Jeff Neill's photo.
October 20 at 8:19pm · Like · 2
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Claire Keeler oooh! I hate TS Eliot! First thing I'd get rid of from the curric
October 20 at 8:21pm · Like
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Joel HF Murmurantes.
October 20 at 8:23pm · Like · 1
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Claire Keeler Jeff- my husband works at TJ and has been bringing that stuff home a ton since they recently got it in. It's by far my favorite IPA (generally I find them too hoppy). It has an amazing depth of flavor.
October 20 at 8:35pm · Edited · Like · 2
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John Boyer IPA über alles
October 20 at 8:55pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer And poetry is full of lies about the Gods and should be banned.
October 20 at 8:56pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF That cyborg article is creepy.
October 20 at 9:03pm · Like · 2
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Catherine Joliat Feil OK, so it has hops in it, but it's not an IPA. (Sorry, Claire, but we've been having a long fight about IPAs and I like to nitpick.) It's not even really an American Pale Ale…they're trying to do something Belgian-influenced, by their own admission. http://lagunitas.com/beers/little-sumpin-wild/#
October 20 at 9:04pm · Like · 1
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Joel HF "Many transhumanists, particularly in Silicon Valley, where belief in the singularity has assumed the character of an eschatological religion, think that fusing with technology is our only hope of surviving the consequences of this great change."
October 20 at 9:05pm · Like
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Catherine Joliat Feil Time to start the tNET commune in the woods of Montana!
October 20 at 9:06pm · Like · 3
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Joel HF But will our commune brew IPA, Lagers, or something Belgian style?
October 20 at 9:07pm · Like · 1
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Catherine Joliat Feil Well, all communes get into a fight eventually and form splinter groups...
October 20 at 9:09pm · Like · 2
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Oleg Kostoglotov We will brew them all because we are equal opportunity brewers. Actually my last beer I brewed was a Belgian IPA so there are two already.
October 20 at 9:09pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov And if you are going to move to Montana you might as well come to Alberta, even prettier but with more jobs and better pay.
October 20 at 9:10pm · Like
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Jeff Neill Is it in Montana?
Why leave the federalists for the British monarchy?
October 20 at 9:14pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov The royals don't come by very often, we pretty much have the house to ourselves.
October 20 at 9:15pm · Like
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Claire Keeler sorry Catherine Joliat Feil - at this point I am just unabashedly dropping in and out of tNET, but in my defense, it is imPOSSIBLE to "catch up" enough to be sure I'm not backtracking on the conversation. You're right- it doesn't even say IPA! I wonder why I thought it was.... maybe because most beers seem to be IPAs now. I guess that's the new cool thing to be.
October 20 at 9:24pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Well, I suppose it is very fashionable to turn up one's nose at Eliot.
October 20 at 9:25pm · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict But that won't save you when I am king!
October 20 at 9:26pm · Like · 3
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Samantha Cohoe Puh-leeze. If our tNET Burning Strawman was in danger of going Titus Andronicus, a tNET commune would go there for SURE.
October 20 at 9:32pm · Like · 5
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Michael Beitia depends on how much we brewed.
October 20 at 9:34pm · Like
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Michael Beitia I've always wanted to get into craft distilling. Not whiskey or vodka, but something weird like herbal cordials
October 20 at 9:35pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but it's illegal
#moonshinegnosis
October 20 at 9:35pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Isak I never liked Eliot much and then Rexroth corroborated my opinion
October 20 at 9:37pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Ezra Pound?
October 20 at 9:38pm · Like
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Oleg Kostoglotov In Alberta you can distill, just not sell it. The government always wants a cut.
October 20 at 9:40pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia find like a weird cleansing mixture and market it as a digestif.
October 20 at 9:41pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante It depends. He has some grand moments and unlike Eliot wasn't a prissy old biddy
October 20 at 9:41pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia ^I meant palate cleansing....
October 20 at 9:41pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe hahaha more great burns.
October 20 at 9:43pm · Like
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Samantha Cohoe I still like the Wasteland.
October 20 at 9:43pm · Like · 2
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Joel HF Kenneth Rexroth?
October 20 at 9:45pm · Like
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Joel HF I can respect not liking Eliot (ok, not really), but Rexroth confirming it?
October 20 at 9:46pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson, in response to my theoretical critique of the First Amendment, you wrote: "Let's assume it to be absolutely true." But then you immediately added the following: "Even so, we'd have to think a bit about the fact that if you asked most people in any Christian society at any time throughout history if it were functionally true (how does the government help you contemplate God?) they would laugh in your face." Even were it so that my claim would provoke laughter from most people in any Christian society, I would not be particularly moved by such an "argument. For we are not investigating what claims might be ridiculed by the many, but rather what is true. And there I would suggest that we look to those who have spoken authoritatively on these matters: first St. Thomas Aquinas, and then popes Gregory XVI, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XI, Pius XII, and even John Paul II.
Please note that you began by saying you were going to grant my arguments as "absolutely true," presumably so that we could then
go on to look at what prudence would dictate in practice in light of my
theoretical critique. However, you immediately retreated from that hypothesis to your standard claim, namely, that my position is not practical because most people in a Christian society would laugh in my face. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion, then, that you do not grant that the First Amendment is flawed in principle. You seem to
believe--and please correct me if I am wrong--that the First Amendment is the IDEAL political solution to the problems posed by Church and State. Your recent heading to tNET, that you are
standing contra those who advocate a confessional state, further leads me to believe that you are a defender of the First Amendment not only in practice, but also in theory. Again, please correct me if I mistake your position. But hopefully you will recall that it was precisely because I thought we might disagree in THEORY that I wanted to go step by step to see where that disagreement actually began. You, on the other hand, saw the whole process of going step by step as futile because I would never give you my practical solutions to real political problems. I think it has become clear now that we do disagree in principle, and that is why I was reluctant to argue on the level of the "best possible" without first seeing what principles we shared or did not share.
To move to the argument, then, you think contemplation of God is "not a very proximate end of the state in any way whatsoever,"
whereas I hold that this is the highest natural virtue and hence necessarily a matter of deep concern to the State. I do not advocate, however, your parody of this position as government forcing
everyone to sit in a room and put in a set number of hours of
contemplation. I never said that everyone was supposed to live the contemplative life. But I do hold, along with St. Thomas and the
popes listed above, that the State must concern itself with facilitating this orientation to God in every possible way so that each person can, according to whatever abilities each has, come to know God. Hence, a pernicious doctrine like the First Amendment could never be supported in principle because it deliberately prohibits the State from favoring one religion over another. This doctrine creates an entire ethos that destroys whatever contemplative orientation ordinary citizens can have. And surely citizens can have such, though it seems a joke in our times because our regime has produced souls who cannot take God and His demands
seriously. As a result, we think this subjectivism and indifference in matters of religion is the natural state of man, but it is not. Contemplation is hardly something for the elite alone. Every Mass, every gathering, and even every conversation is oriented to the contemplation of God, however remotely and however short it may fall of true and perfect contemplation achieved by the very few. And law, especially the laws concerning religion, such as the First
Amendment itself, have a deep effect on the daily lives of citizens since our souls are made for and ordered to worship of God in all we do and say. This is real history and real life, and these are real people about whom I am speaking, whose spiritual poverty has been
imposed by the tyranny of relativism produced by the religious indifferentism embraced by the First Amendment. More to
come.
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Brian Kemple Here is a place of disaffection
Time before and time after
In a dim light: neither daylight
Investing form with lucid stillness
Turning shadow into transient beauty
With slow rotation suggesting permanence
Nor darkness, to purify the soul.
Neither plenitude nor vacancy.
Only a flicker
Over the strained time-ridden faces
Distracted from distraction by distraction
Tumid apathy with no concentration
October 20 at 9:47pm · Like · 1
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Brian Kemple *drives golf-cart off into the distance, consumes IPA*
October 20 at 9:48pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia are you using that in your dissertation Brian?
October 20 at 9:49pm · Like
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Brian Kemple Might show up as an epigraph.
October 20 at 9:50pm · Like
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Brian Kemple The only way you can find out is by reading it!
October 20 at 9:50pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond
Matthew, in response to my claim that men governed by the First Amendment lack moral liberty because the regime refuses in principle to distinguish between true and false religion, you cry "false." Your argument is that the First Amendment could be legally changed at any time by means of a set process. That is true, but that does not address my claim that those who are governed by it lack moral liberty while they are governed by it. Revolution could also
eliminate the First Amendment, but that is irrelevant to my point. You then note that several states had state religion in place. You claim that this shows that these men did indeed distinguish between true and false religion, but you note that the "underlying assumption was clearly some form of Protestantism and whatever overlapped with it." This supports my point, for this is not distinguishing between true and false religion; this is openly endorsing false religion.
Here we have come to the heart of the disagreement between us. You are content to have a law that formally allows folks to distinguish, in whatever way seems best to them, between true and false religion. I, on the other hand, stand with St. Thomas and the popes who insist that Catholicism is the true religion regardless of who happens to choose it. The Church, as established by Christ Himself, has trans-political sovereignty and therefore cannot accept an indiscriminate religious toleration that reduces the Church to nothing more than a private association, one among many, over which the civil law has final authority.
To conflate, as you do, Protestant state governments distinguishing between true and false religion with rightly distinguishing between true religion (Catholicism) and any other religion, is precisely the mindset created by the First Amendment. You have made this same
argument elsewhere. You have often pointed out that liberals in our time frequently attempt to legislate morality, and you are right to point this out. But you somehow think this is an argument against those who think virtue is produced in souls through genuine law (in the Platonic sense). Here is what you say: "Look, you lovers of virtue, how do you like it when the government legislates concerning morality in ways with which you don't agree?" And you also regularly
resort to this same argument when you point to the Islamic states and gleefully point out that they, too, impose virtue on their citizens. "How do you like them, apples!" Do you not see, Matthew, that these arguments only carry weight for those who have fully embraced the principle of indifference that the First Amendment breeds? Simply because there is a difference of opinion, you are ready equate
the Catholic Church's claims with any other group that happens to have a moral vision. What are you saying, then? Do you take the Kennedy and Cuomo position that in private you say the Catholic Church is the one true Church, but in public you recognize that the Church's claims are as arbitrary as any other group's claims? The Church emphatically rejects such a position just as it must emphatically reject in principle the indifferentism of the First Amendment.
One could point out every day fathers and mothers who impose on their children false ideas. Should we then outlaw the imposition of ideas of any kind since there are many examples of false ideas
being imposed?
By the time you are done, Matthew, you are openly rejecting St. Thomas' and the popes' claim that it belongs to government to form souls according to the genuine distinction between true and false religion. You wrote: "Determining true and false religion belongs to the realm of theology and philosophy, not legislation. What
law pertains to directly is very specific behavior and concrete action. What you wish for here is really a "prelude" and not an actual law." But law, according to Catholic political principles enunciated by St. Thomas and the popes, includes both what you call a "prelude" and the laws that are directed at what is specific and concrete, the latter being the by-product of the former. Your argument, however, which separates theology and philosophy from legislation, demonstrates that you have embraced the First Amendment not simply on the practical level, but as the ideally best. You have chosen Locke's view of politics over St. Thomas' and the popes'.
October 20 at 9:55pm · Like · 2
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John Ruplinger "Dante and Virgil answer T.S. Eliot" A.D. Hope
October 20 at 9:56pm · Like
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Joel HF Jeffrey Bond--Under your view of the theoretical best, why couldn't the establishment clause, if understood as a mere practical compromise, be given a tepid defense?
October 20 at 9:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson--Perhaps the most telling example of your departure from Catholic political principles is your reaction to Leo XIII's Immortale Dei where he states that "it is a public crime to act as though there were no God. So, too, is it a sin for the State not to have care for religion as a something beyond its scope, or as of no practical benefit; or out of many forms of religion to adopt that one which chimes in with the fancy; for we are bound absolutely to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will. All who rule, therefore, would hold in honor the holy name of God, and one of their chief duties must be
to favor religion, to protect it, to shield it under the credit and sanction of the laws, and neither to organize nor enact any measure that may compromise its safety. This is the bounden duty of rulers to the people over whom they rule."
Your wrote in response: "HAH. Yes, and this IS WHY THEY
WENT WITH RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL. To favor, protect, and shield it under the credit and sanction of law and make sure no other sect could organize or enact any measure that might compromise its safety. Thankfully for Catholicism, this allowed it to exist here despite Sam Adams and friends."
Note that you completely miss (or avoid) the fact that Leo XIII is not just talking about protecting just any religion; he is speaking of the one true religion of Catholicism. Why else would he say that "we are bound absolutely to worship God in that way which He has shown to be His will." And what way is that? Clearly Leo thinks that it is not, as Locke would say, the way that seems acceptable to us. No, Leo insists that the true religion does not depend on what seems right to us, but what God has shown to be His will. The fact that you interpret Leo's words as somehow endorsing something compatible with the
so-called religious liberty protected by the First Amendment is simply not tenable if you read the whole of Leo's Immortale Dei, as well as Aeterni Patris, Diuturnum, and Libertas.
October 20 at 10:02pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Finally, Matthew, you say concerning your position that "If this is disagreeable to anyone, it is likely because they don't care about the reality on the ground. They want to ignore the fact that people disagreed about man's highest and last end. Well, tough. There are only two options, and continuous gradation between them: you can force people to agree with you, or you can persuade them." I would counter by saying that if anyone disagrees with St. Thomas and the popes, then it is likely because they don't realize that the "reality on the ground" is not the ultimate reality. The higher reality of Heaven, and what God has revealed to us, is thought to be irrelevant to our
political life, so it is banished to the private realm in the name of protecting it. Yet this kind of "protection" comes at a great price, that price being the slow but steady erosion of the conviction that ours is the one true Faith that cannot be treated as simply one faction among many.
October 20 at 10:04pm · Edited · Like · 2
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Sean Robertson Removing The Wasteland from the curriculum would be a travesty. There is hardly a more perfect reading to accompany Nietzsche.
October 20 at 10:09pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That question is fine, Joel, but pointless unless the principles (especially the duty of the state wrt the true religion) be understood by those living in the regime because otherwise the slow and steady erosion follows.
October 20 at 11:00pm · Edited · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey Bond, I'd have to re-read Immortale Dei, but I would argue that the first amendment provide the free space within which men can seek salvation. Considering the historical founding, that's about the best we could hope for.
October 20 at 10:12pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond I obviously disagree. Before we can even begin to consider what the best we could hope for might be, we have to see the utter destruction of souls caused by Locke's doctrine of toleration of which the First Amendment is a very concise and succinct summary. We have trouble evaluating that doctrine because it has so shaped our way of thinking that we do not recognize the way it makes us disdain the theoretical in favor of the practical. In fact, it makes a theory out of practice.
October 20 at 10:16pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia what would you have had the founders do?
October 20 at 10:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This is what I have tried to show concerning Matthew's responses, and I think his responses exhibit an impatience with the theoretical that is very problematic.
October 20 at 10:18pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia so what would you have had the founders do?
October 20 at 10:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Reject Locke's doctrine of toleration.
October 20 at 10:19pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson "If everyone were Catholic, then we'd..."
October 20 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Hah. Yah got two choices: now, forever, always. Force or persuasion.
October 20 at 10:20pm · Like
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Michael Beitia and have all the descendants of religious dissidents all of a sudden declare allegiance to Rome?
October 20 at 10:20pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Will respond later, but methinks you are talking past me.
October 20 at 10:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Joel HF, you wrote: "Under your view of the theoretical best, why couldn't the establishment clause, if understood as a mere practical compromise, be given a tepid defense?" One could defend it as the best practical solution, were that true. And at the time of the founding, it may have appeared to some to have been a reasonable compromise. But with hindsight we should clearly see what it has led to: Catholics no longer defend it as a mere practical compromise. They genuinely think it is the best. That is the result of the way the First Amendment works on souls. It is spiritual poison.
October 20 at 10:26pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I disagree, but have to finish my nachos first
October 20 at 10:26pm · Like
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John Ruplinger The relunctance even to consider the theoretical is clear. The consequence of embracing toleration has been demonstrated by Bond, by Leo XIII, and historically (cf. Pink which I'll send if anyone pm me h/t Pater Edmund).
October 20 at 10:31pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson I don't think it genuinely best, nor have you really addressed a single one of my objections. Because you fail to see or acknowledge the way of the world.
In politics and ethics, one does not *concede* anything to the circumstances or reality, nor does one "lower" one's standards. It is that reality which helps form and shape what is virtuous, what is ethical, what is political - prudence takes those circumstances as given. It is that reality, set in stone, from which one tries to move towards the telos and what ought to be done.
You want to draw bright straight lines from a human governance straight to the beatific vision. This is why we fail.
October 20 at 10:48pm · Edited · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Matthew J. Peterson, take your time. Me also thinks that you are talking past me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj60OAh7O5U
Cool Hand Luke: Failure to Communicate
Great scene in Cool Hand Luke!!
YOUTUBE.COM
October 20 at 10:32pm · Like · 3
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Paging Samuel Adams
October 20 at 10:32pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia ^ the beer?
October 20 at 10:32pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson Again, assume you are correct. You want to say I disagree on principle. I don't. I agree with the core of Aristotle and St. Thomas on the matters of principle at hand.
So go on - assume you are correct. Can you answer a single question or objection about regimes that actually exist in time and place - questions that have been asked repeatedly?
October 20 at 10:34pm · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson We can all repeat mantras and slogans over and over again - they're just words give us concrete flesh and blood examples so we know what you are trying to say.
October 20 at 10:35pm · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson The assumption in all these debates is always that we know exactly what St. Thomas and Aristotle mean and what they would say in our day and age.
October 20 at 10:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I certainly do not want to say you disagree with me on principle, but this is the first time you have explicitly said that you do not think the First Amendment is genuinely best. Why did it take so long for you to grant that? While you have seemed close to granting it before, your subsequent "agreement" revealed itself in fact to be disagreement. Even above, where you first say you do not think the First Amendment is genuinely best, you flatly state that I fail to see or acknowledge the way of the world. How then could we possibly be in agreement in principle?
October 20 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm trying to say that y'all all are nice people but Sam Adams clearly had a point
October 20 at 10:41pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond To his credit, Sam Adams saw that one cannot embrace both Locke and Catholicism.
October 20 at 10:42pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond If I shared Locke's and Adams' view, I would agree that the Catholics should be wiped out. Start with their assumptions, and it is the only way you can ensure the reign of the doctrine of toleration.
October 20 at 10:45pm · Like
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Michael Beitia Jeffrey Bond, isn't Matt correct in saying that there is only two ways of changing someone's (political) mind: force and persuasion?
October 20 at 10:45pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes, as long as education is included in persuasion.
October 20 at 10:46pm · Like · 3
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Matthew J. Peterson Gradation between the two, and you can try both, but yeah that's what I claim
October 20 at 10:46pm · Like
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Michael Beitia certainly.
in a country where there is a significantly small Catholic minority, isn't it better that they be allowed the free space to persuade (and set up schools) so teach?
October 20 at 10:47pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I have no problem with that claim, and we are both trying to use persuasion so that no one gets bashed like ol' Cool Hand Luke.
October 20 at 10:48pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia and isn't it the case that if the Catholics had actually put their money where their mouth is, in this country, they would have out-bred everyone else by now and had a majority?
October 20 at 10:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Other regimes have tolerated Catholics without relying upon Locke's doctrine of toleration. Even the Muslims have at times been tolerant in this sense. But Locke's doctrine of toleration is very different. It is based on dogmatic toleration, not practical toleration.
October 20 at 11:07pm · Edited · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia if democracy leads to tyranny, the Catholics had it set up perfectly for a theocracy to form. All they had to do is follow the program
October 20 at 10:51pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Free space for Catholics is fine when they are in the minority, but basing that free space on Locke's doctrine is the problem. I think it may help if I set forth my reading of Locke, but I cannot do so tonight. Any interest in seeing the argument?
October 20 at 10:51pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Catholics have not followed the Catholic program (and out-bred everyone else) because they have been seduced by the Lockean program. More of the same poison will lead to the same results.
October 20 at 10:52pm · Like
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Michael Beitia they have been free to pursue their salvation. the fault lies in them, and in their teachers (and ultimately, their clergy)
October 20 at 10:53pm · Like
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John Boyer Anyone care to give a tl;dr version of this argument?
October 20 at 10:55pm · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia which I hold much more to blame than their (largely) non-Catholic oligarchic overlords
October 20 at 10:55pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. I agree the fault lies in Catholics, but they have not really been free in the true sense of that word.
October 20 at 10:55pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond The idea that freedom is doing whatever one likes as long as one does not hurt anyone else is a false and enslaving notion of freedom.
October 20 at 10:56pm · Like · 3
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Michael Beitia I agree wholeheartedly
October 20 at 10:57pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Then the "free space" you speak of has not really been free, has it?
October 20 at 10:57pm · Like
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Michael Beitia nothing is every absolutely free in society, there are many constraints and duties.
October 20 at 10:58pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond You falsely set freedom against authority. This is the position I am arguing against.
October 20 at 10:59pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia no I don't. you're reading something into the brevity of typing
October 20 at 10:59pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond OK. But you seemed to set freedom against duty.
October 20 at 11:00pm · Like
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Michael Beitia by "absolutely free" read: licentiousness
October 20 at 11:01pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond No. Absolutely free is the freedom of God. We approach it to the extent we submit to Him and fulfill our duty. True freedom requires submission of intellect and will to true authority.
October 20 at 11:04pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond "The Truth will set you free."
October 20 at 11:04pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond To be free in the modern sense is to be free to sin, but that is true slavery. It is ass backwards.
October 20 at 11:05pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond You seem to identify freedom with absence of restraint, as if human freedom were the same as a stone being free to fall. You want to limit it by duty, etc., but you still view freedom as doing as one likes. Do I have you wrong?
October 20 at 11:06pm · Like
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Michael Beitia see we're talking past each other again.
October 20 at 11:10pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Natural freedom, as Leo XIII explains, is the free will of a rational creature, who can therefore go astray by choosing wrongly. But moral freedom is freedom perfected when we not only choose, but choose rightly. Natural liberty is to moral liberty as potency is to act.
October 20 at 11:11pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond I do not think we are talking past each other. I think we are disagreeing, but correct me if I have you wrong.
October 20 at 11:12pm · Like
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Michael Beitia depends on what you mean by disagreeing.
I have maintained for years that there aren't "rights" but duties, primarily to God.
October 20 at 11:13pm · Like · 3
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Jeffrey Bond OK. If you like Leo's distinction, then see where he goes with it. It is the highest end of the political art to bring man from natural liberty to moral liberty.
October 20 at 11:13pm · Like
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John Ruplinger Just a note. Matthew said he agreed with Thomas but also suggested we may not know what he or Aristotle means and that we don't know what Aristotle or Thomas would advise given today's circumstances. That is an unclear answer to Jeffrey's question. I point it out lest we continue to argue past one another and merely mouth the same "platitudes", real or imagined, popular now or in some alleged fantasy land.
October 20 at 11:22pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Such agreement would not be real agreement, which is where I stand at this point. But I am ready and eager to be proven wrong.
October 20 at 11:15pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I am glad, Michael, that you see duties and not rights. But I was disagreeing with what I took to be a mistake in your position on freedom. Do you agree with Leo?
October 20 at 11:16pm · Like
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Michael Beitia of course.
October 20 at 11:18pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Then is it the business of the political art to bring men from natural liberty to moral liberty?
October 20 at 11:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia no
October 20 at 11:19pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond OK. Then you disagree with Leo. What will bring men from natural liberty to moral liberty?
October 20 at 11:19pm · Like
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Michael Beitia as a convert, I'm sure you can answer that question privately, as can I
October 20 at 11:20pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond I don't follow.
October 20 at 11:21pm · Like
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Michael Beitia experientially, I can tell how I came to moral liberty from natural liberty
October 20 at 11:23pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Do you think this art of perfecting natural liberty is in each individual man? If so, then you think men enter political life to guarantee their freedom, but I think men enter political life to achieve it.
October 20 at 11:24pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond This is why Aristotle thinks we are political by nature. We are not self-sufficient with respect to the development of the moral and intellectual virtues necessary to become truly free.
October 20 at 11:25pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond There must be an agent that brings men to this perfection. And that agent Aristotle identifies with the statesman who exercises the political art.
October 20 at 11:26pm · Like
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Michael Beitia haha. I grew up in Idaho. the statesman was the Boise paper. They'd have us all be Mormon
October 20 at 11:27pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond At least the Mormons, like the Spartans, understand the necessity of formation, even if they are wrongheaded. Our regime, however, pretends that the individual can achieve this on his own, and that lie stunts man's moral and intellectual growth.
October 20 at 11:30pm · Like · 2
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Jeffrey Bond Of course, as Matthew likes to repeat--and I agree with him here--the modern liberal regime has its own kind of formation which it pretends is not imposition. So everyone walks around repeating the American creed, "No one should impose his views on anyone else," therefore showing that a genuine imposition has taken place. Let's say it all together: "We are all individuals!" "We all think for ourselves!" "We are all self-made men!"
October 20 at 11:32pm · Like · 2
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Michael Beitia but if we didn't have the establishment clause, it would be the wrongheaded formation
October 20 at 11:32pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond But the Catholics would then know their enemy. Living under the Muslims, one does not get confused. Living in Locke land, well, that's a different story. What you don't see, Michael, is that the First Amendment is already the wrongheaded formation of the worst kind.
October 20 at 11:34pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Joel HF I think Bond and Escalante may be closer on how they read Locke than people might guess.
October 20 at 11:35pm · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Wait it's better to live in a Muslim country than a free country? As a matter of practicality, I would say no.
October 20 at 11:35pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond It is invisible formation. So nobody thinks he is being shaped by it. But is misshapes and distorts. Think of Plato's cave. Are not the prisoners sure that they see things as they are? What are the shadows of the American cave? A false idea of freedom. How amazing that a false idea of freedom can enslave so effectively. Hence, John Boyer thinks he is in a free country.
October 20 at 11:36pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer Is there any country which has true freedom of religion for all? I say no.
October 20 at 11:36pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What do you mean by "freedom"?
October 20 at 11:37pm · Like
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John Boyer There is always a background culture which dominates.
October 20 at 11:37pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond So you, too, see freedom as something in opposition to authority?
October 20 at 11:38pm · Like · 1
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John Boyer I would probably take a Lockean view here. Lack of interference. Ability to practice unmolested.
October 20 at 11:38pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond That is not freedom.
October 20 at 11:39pm · Like
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John Boyer Not necessarily. There are different meaning of freedom, and Locke isn't wrong. He's only wrong if that's the only meaning.
October 20 at 11:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond See argument above.
October 20 at 11:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond He is wrong because he is wrong about the nature of man.
October 20 at 11:39pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond He is talking about natural freedom. He does not recognize moral freedom.
October 20 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Boyer I won't disagree about the anthropology.
October 20 at 11:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Well, if he is wrong about the anthropology, then he is wrong about freedom.
October 20 at 11:40pm · Like
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John Boyer Conformity to God and not being ruled by lower passions?
October 20 at 11:40pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Yes. Free to be fully human.
October 20 at 11:41pm · Like · 2
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John Boyer Not necessarily. I would say a man bound by chains is not free in a very real sense. But that isn't he only sense. We can have a both and.
October 20 at 11:41pm · Like
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John Boyer *the
October 20 at 11:41pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond There are worse things than physical chains. There is a mind that is chained by falsehood and deception.
October 20 at 11:42pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The larger point about freedom is that man cannot bring himself from natural to moral (perfected) liberty. This is proper to the political art, but those formed in a Lockean world will not want to grant this for fear of losing their "freedom" to do as they like.
October 20 at 11:46pm · Edited · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Lockean men think that men enter the social contract to protect the freedom they already have perfectly in themselves. But Aristotle and the Catholic tradition argue that the political art is necessary to bring man from a state of natural freedom to the perfected state of moral freedom.
October 20 at 11:48pm · Like
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John Boyer My sole point is that the Lockean account, taken on its own, is not a false definition. Second, I don't know if any state can have true natural freedom of religion.
Is this part of the confessional state argument?
October 20 at 11:49pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond We cannot even get to where the pagans began, never mind discussing the confessional state.
October 20 at 11:50pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond The Lockean account is false. The freedom it speaks of is not the freedom proper to a man.
October 20 at 11:50pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond What do you mean by "true natural freedom of religion"?
October 20 at 11:52pm · Like
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John Ruplinger That is interesting. The democratic love of freedom fortifies that conception of natural freedom as the only freedom.
October 20 at 11:53pm · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond Agreed.
October 20 at 11:53pm · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Plato's cave is the only way I can make sense of it. The American shadows are powerful beyond all others because they flatter the soul into believing that it is self-directing and truly free. The First Amendment is one of the most powerful shadows in this respect because it fortifies the individual in the belief that no one really knows any better than he does about the ultimate questions.
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John Boyer What I mean is Americans are not even fully without external constraints.
Yesterday at 12:02am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Of course not. But I think you are mistaken to view freedom as relative to constraints.
Yesterday at 12:05am · Edited · Like
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John Boyer Jeffrey, is moral freedom directly incompatible with allowing any natural freedom? For true moral freedom, would you say we must remove "natural" freedom?
Yesterday at 12:08am · Like
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Jeffrey Bond Moral freedom does not eliminate natural freedom; it perfects it.
Yesterday at 12:11am · Like · 1
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Jeffrey Bond For all you Lockeans. Janis Joplin on freedom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7CtqwyxHM0
Janis Joplin - Me and Bobby Mc Gee
Busted flat in Baton Rouge, waiting for a train And Is feeling nearly as faded as my jeans. Bobby thumbed a...
YOUTUBE.COM
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Jeffrey Bond Please forgive me, but I must to bed. It is already past pumpkin time here.
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Jeffrey Bond God bless one and all.
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Isak Benedict I think what we're watching unfold is the turmoil inevitable in the minds of those who would like to think that Aristotle and Locke are reconcilable.
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Isak Benedict When Aristotle asserts that man is political by nature, he is basing this claim on an understanding of nature as "that towards which a thing is directed," its final cause, or its end. He affirms that happiness, the end of man, is brought about by the perfection of his nature as it takes place in political society. Hence according to Aristotle, the end of political union is to bring about the happiness of men. Locke, however, asserts that men are naturally in a state of perfect liberty, free from any superior other than their own wills, and only leave that apolitical state by their own consent, quitting their individual executive powers and resigning them by contract to an elected authority. Locke thus distinguishes man in the state of nature from man in the state of a commonwealth, and affirms as the end of political union nothing more than the preservation of Property.
Yesterday at 12:16am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_c8pO1aHPw
Lee Hazelwood No Train to Stockholm
For non profit and educational purposes only!
YOUTUBE.COM
Yesterday at 12:16am · Like · 2
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Isak Benedict Concerning the origin of political authority and the nature of man, man's end and man's liberty, then, Locke is fundamentally and therefore necessarily in conflict with Aristotle, for Locke considers the state of commonwealth to be an escape from the state of nature, where Aristotle considers the political state to be the proximate fulfillment of man’s nature. Thus, so far as his theory informs the formation of his political society, the Lockean social contractor stands as a radical departure from the Aristotle's naturally political animal.
Yesterday at 12:18am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Aristotle’s claims that the polis exists by nature, and that man is a political animal by nature, cannot be approached without an explanation of Aristotle’s view of nature itself. As he says in his Physics, everything is defined most fully by its end or final cause. Thus when he claims in the Politics that the polis is natural and that man is naturally political, he is considering the end of each of these, the final causes that give them their natures. An investigation of the political nature of man depends upon an examination of the nature of the polis.
Aristotle states that marriage is the first step towards a polis, while a community or village is the proximate step, and that a community is initially geared towards mere survival. However, once a village has reached the point where it is no longer struggling to survive, its purpose aims at what he calls the good life - that is, a life free to cultivate activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, which is happiness.
Yesterday at 12:23am · Edited · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict As for the nature of man, Aristotle again looks to man’s final cause. He says that man’s highest end is happiness, since everything man does is for the sake of happiness and man does not seek happiness for the sake of something else. Now, since the nature of the polis aims at the good life, and man’s greatest end lies in achieving happiness, it is obviously necessary that man must form or enter into a polis if he is to fulfill his natural end. Thus, according to Aristotle, man is a naturally political animal.
Yesterday at 12:23am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict In his Second Treatise on Government, Locke poses a question the answer to which bears examination if we are to understand the principles of his social contract. He asks “If man in the state of nature be so free, as has been said; if he be absolute lord of his own person and possessions, equal to the greatest, and subject to no body, why will he part with his freedom? Why will he give up this empire, and subject himself to the dominion and control of any other power?”
Locke’s answer to his question lies in the very observations he makes about man in the state of nature within the question; that is, he says that man will part with his freedom and give up this empire for the very reason that man in the state of nature is perfectly free!
He essentially asserts that in the state of nature, every man is a king unto himself, under the dominion of no other, and it is this freedom to do what he pleases that places man in danger. Clearly, as he says, if every man is king and may do as he wishes, men will quickly enter into a state of war, since their individual desires will inevitably clash with one another. This will result in the loss of liberty and even life for all those who are not strong enough to either resist others or conquer others. In spite of his claim that the law of nature is plain and intelligible to all men, Locke has to admit that men will interpret it according to their own interests. Hence, there is no definite law in the state of nature, nor an impartial judge, and so both of these must be created through the social contract.
Yesterday at 12:25am · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Isak and Matthew might disagree on politics, but they are at one in this multiple posting business
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Matthew J. Peterson Isak Benedict, we went to the same school. No one here is equating the two!
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Isak Benedict I definitely disagree with Matthew's politics. But I'm definitely not a confessional state peep, and definitely not a Lockean. Anarchist maybe...
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Matthew J. Peterson As to natural sociability, from what I can tell most early Americans held it to be true.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante you got Ultramontanesplained, Matthew!
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Matthew J. Peterson Although sometimes in a curious way.
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Matthew J. Peterson But Locke himself has the virtue of dealing with the card he is actually dealt. Something that Aristotle does for all regimes in the Politics.
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Isak Benedict I think you are equating the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you want to be on both Aquinas' side (who is Aristotelian in his political thought) and on Madison's side (who is definitely Lockean). Am I right that you believe them not to be at odds?
Yesterday at 12:29am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict "But Locke himself has the virtue of dealing with the card he is actually dealt. Something that Aristotle does for all regimes in the Politics." Hang on, I'm getting to that.
Yesterday at 12:30am · Like
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Isak Benedict Also getting to the "natural sociability" thing.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew more thinks that Aristotle is right ideally, but practically, you're committed to some kind of Lockean compromise in space and time with the Aristotelian idea as a regulative idea or something
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Isak Benedict According to Locke, the preservation of Property (that is of life, liberty and possessions,) is not merely the reason man enters into society, but the sole purpose of society itself. In Locke’s state of nature, man’s Property is constantly at risk of being lost. Man enters social relations to escape the state of nature and eliminate that risk, since the state of nature is insupportable by the conflicting claims and warring passions of men independent and free from all superior power besides their own will, as it is guided by their individual understanding of what Locke calls natural law. Locke does not forget, however, to account for man’s freedom even in society. He says that the purpose of erecting a legislative government is to form laws that protect everyone’s rights, and allow all men to continue doing as they please without hurting anyone else or infringing on any other man’s Property.
Thus the dominion and control of any other power of which Locke speaks is actually taken and placed in the hands of a legislative elected by the people, bound to protect the rights of others. Locke solves his problem with a bargain; the social contract, every man giving up his natural right to everything, which even includes another man’s Property.
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Isak Benedict I think that's what Matthew thinks too. But what good is an ideal that doesn't match the real? Or rather, what good is a real that does not conform to an ideal?
Yesterday at 12:34am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson One simply cannot understand these things fully by means of great books talk alone. What the word actually mean must be fleshed out with reality in mind. Both as regards to what, say, Aristotle means and doubly so when we start staying so and so agreed with Aristotle means and so and so didn't. (A theologian of the Middle Ages and a political practitioner of the 18th century - two radically different things, both of whom appropriate Stotle in radically different ways).
As to who is at odds with who, of course, one might question just how Aristotelian St. Thomas is, given that he introduces a higher community - whereas for Aristotle the state is the highest, and an elite philosophic caste...well, look. It's complicated all around.
Yesterday at 12:36am · Like
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and also Isak is not obviously right about Locke, given what Locke says about family and education; but be that as it may
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Isak Benedict Now that we have enunciated Aristotle’s and Locke’s political theories in brief, an important objection arises here. It might seem to some students of political thought that Locke’s idea of the social contract does not disagree with Aristotle’s claim that man is naturally political; rather he might think that, far from being a deviation, Locke’s thought actually arises from Aristotle’s as a natural progression.
After all, do not the actions taken by men coming together for whatever reason, by inclination or to protect their Property, exemplify exactly the behavior Aristotle speaks of when he claims that men form societies by nature? Perhaps man is naturally political precisely because he is naturally free, and one follows on the other as risibility from rationality – so closely that it is difficult to discern which is the more fundamental. An objector might even make the claim that although Locke speaks of man in the state of a commonwealth as distinguished from a man in the state of nature, Locke would call the actual formation of a commonwealth a natural action, and would therefore be in agreement with Aristotle’s dictum that man is naturally political.
To fully refute this objection, and expand further upon the contrasts between the two schools of political thought I've been laying out, it would be beneficial to consider in greater detail what things Aristotle and Locke consider to belong to government by nature, and what things by convention. We must distinguish four aspects of civil authority: its origin, ends, powers and forms.
I do believe I am fleshing this out with reality in mind.
Yesterday at 12:38am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson The problem here is a radical misunderstanding of what politics and ethics are.
If you refuse to give answers to what ought to be done, we aren't doing politics or ethics at all.
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Isak Benedict Matthew, using that phrase "what ought to be done" DEPENDS NECESSARILY on a consideration of the ideal before the practical can be dealt with. I think you're right to want to discuss the daily doings and the nitty-gritty, but I think it's futile if we haven't agreed on principles.
Yesterday at 12:40am · Like · 1
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Matthew J. Peterson So one would look carefully to the circumstances Aristotle is working in and what he thinks about how it should all work in practice. And then one would study the circumstances of the early American regime and what actually happens and work back to what the participants said about reasons and principles.
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Isak Benedict Perhaps that's right! But again, we should know first what the principles are, and were.
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John Ruplinger nice play of the ambiguous "ought to be done" card.
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Matthew J. Peterson That is THE question if ethics and politics.
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Isak Benedict Government, according to Aristotle, has its origin in the nature of man, and therefore exists by nature. According to Locke, however, government has its origin in the consent of the governed, in the agreement made by men leaving their natural state, and therefore exists by convention.
Aristotle claims that the end of government – happiness, which, by his teleology, defines political authority itself – must be given to it by nature, for it were artificial, then government could not be by nature. Since Locke claims that government exists by convention, then its end, the preservation of Property, must also be by convention, for that which exists as an end for something not of necessity through human nature cannot itself exist by nature.
As for the powers granted civil authority, although he says that their exercise must be prudently determined, Aristotle would affirm that they are derived from nature, since government would not be able to achieve its natural end without them. Locke would of course insist that the powers of an authority that arises by convention must a fortiori exist by convention themselves.
Now! Regarding the FORMS of civil authority, Aristotle and Locke would both say that they exist by convention. A man in political authority may clearly use or not use his powers in different ways as circumstances of a regime differ. Neither Aristotle nor Locke would claim that there is a natural requirement that government be exercised in the form of monarchy, aristocracy, polity or democracy, and they would agree that the mode of civil authority is subject to convention. Though they agree on the determination of the form of government by custom, however, it is clear that Aristotle and Locke disagree otherwise, for Aristotle would never believe as Locke that the end and powers of civil authority are established by convention, let alone the very source of political authority itself.
Yesterday at 12:43am · Like
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Matthew J. Peterson My formulation is relatively clear, I think. Division within Christianity leads to disestablishment when people get tired of the bloodshed, and if one accepts even minimal rights of conscience.
Even if all agree, however, and you decide on establishment, we still find radical disagreements about how, exactly, the church state relationship ought to work, and how, exactly, the state ought to promote virtue, as we say.
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Isak Benedict I certainly agree that it is A question, Matthew!
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Matthew J. Peterson And - you can either force people or persuade them. If you deny consent and rights of conscience altogether one may be more honest and speak a bit more leniently towards radical Islam.
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Isak Benedict But how will anyone answer what ought to be done, without a measure against which the ought can be held?
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Isak Benedict The comparisons to Islam have already been addressed and refuted, to my mind.
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Isak Benedict Let's enunciate the essential differences between an Aristotelian and Lockean regime, and see how reconcilable their theories ultimately are.
First, for Aristotle, membership in a regime is as much a part of human nature as membership in a family, and the only conventional aspects are the form of government and the specific applications of civil laws derived from the natural law. Where Aristotle denotes government as in one way natural and in another way conventional, Locke considers government to be wholly conventional and artificial. An agreement among men not only determines the form of government by which they will live, it also determines the source from which it is derived and the end for which it is ordained.
Yesterday at 12:48am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Second, Aristotle would specify the political community as the medium of authority as it comes by nature, implicitly claiming that that if a man is not born prior to the arrangement of a type of regime, but born into one already existing, he is ipso facto subject to that regime. Locke would specify the individual as the medium of authority as it comes by nature, for rather than considering the consent of the governed as an obvious condition for rule, as Aristotle does, Locke identifies the consent of the governed as a PRINCIPLE of rule.
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Michael Grumbine
Michael Grumbine's photo.
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Isak Benedict Third, Aristotle affirms that education is necessary for the upkeep of the regime and for the perfection of its citizens, thus allowing the polis to achieve its natural end of happiness for men. According to Aristotle, therefore, without the regime a man cannot actualize his potential to be perfected and attain his end, for without education he could never achieve the perfection to which nature ordains him.
Thus for Aristotle, politics is intrinsic to human development.
Locke, on the other hand, affirms that government exists only to maintain what man already has at birth and what he can acquire later, for rather than seeking to perfect the potencies of a man’s soul as Aristotle’s regime does, a Lockean regime only seeks to preserve a man’s primitive actualities – life, liberty and possessions.
In this way, for Locke, politics is extrinsic to human development.
Yesterday at 12:51am · Like · 2
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Matthew J. Peterson Locke too thinks that government has it's origins in man's nature. And Aristo-Thomists need to acknowledge that for all we agree on man's being naturally social, governments do not grow on trees, and are not organic in a literal sense. Rather they are formed by human reason, and human reason has never been quite sure about how best to form them. Consent is needed whatever one's take on consent.
Sure, one looks to nature, but what one finds there is disputed and unclear.
How and where Aristotle derives these "powers of authority" is a complicated business.
But Locke arises in an age where there is radical disagreement about the end or purpose of human beings. Or, perhaps better said, religious folks don't get along and refuse to work together towards that end because of serious theological differences.
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Matthew J. Peterson You are stuck with consent, whether you like or or not. Or force. Given these disagreements.
Yesterday at 12:52am · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Last, for Aristotle, the role of the man in office, or the statesman, must be the role of a man in the care of other men’s souls. His job description includes forming other men, as act bringing potency to perfection. That is why the philosopher has to go back down into Plato’s cave to bring others out into the sun, and that is why Aristotle’s statesman must be virtuous.
For Locke, the statesman or the magistrate is merely a hired hand of the people. He need not be superior, or even merely virtuous. He only has to be able to do what the people themselves find neither convenient nor even possible – be the arbiter of their ceded natural rights. He is an employee of the collective will.
Aristotle and Locke disagree fundamentally, for the very nature of man is perfected by government according to Aristotle, but restrained according to Locke.
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Isak Benedict What, ultimately, do you think government is FOR, Matthew J. Peterson? I mean that question completely seriously.
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Isak Benedict There are two replies to the objection previously seen, namely that the social contract is an indication of rather than a deviation from man’s political nature according to Aristotle.
For one thing, just as it may not be said that every time a man and a woman sexually consummate their relationship, a true marriage has taken place, so it may not be said that every time men come together to form a society, they have in fact done so. If Aristotle understands politics to be ordered by nature to living well, while Locke understands politics to be ordered by convention to living well, then even if they both mean the same thing by “living well,” a Lockean contract cannot be understood in light of Aristotelian political thought. Aristotle would not agree that a Lockean regime was any regime at all.
Yesterday at 12:54am · Like
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Isak Benedict For another thing (the final thing), this objection misunderstands what is meant by “by nature.”
As grass grows by nature and things tend downward by nature, so in this way might a social contract be said to come about by nature, for we see men everywhere existing in relation to others. This begins in the family, and even the beginning of any political union may be said to exist by nature in this way, since it is ordered at first to mere survival.
But when Aristotle speaks of man and his city existing by nature, he is considering the political community as existing for the fulfillment of human nature. The completion of a thing, when its potential has been fully actualized, is when we can discern its true nature, and for Aristotle the political community is natural both because of what it grows from, and from what it grows towards – the full development of men.
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Isak Benedict Is government for the fulfillment of human nature, or is it for protecting man's Property? THAT is THE question.
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Isak Benedict Although "Locke too thinks that government has it's origins in man's nature," he does not mean by "nature" what Aristotle means by "nature."
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Isak Benedict I'm perfectly willing to be shown to be in error about any of this and bear no ill will to anyone who disagrees with me about it.
Honestly, it's probably better for me to go back to my haiku. I like poeting better than political philosophizing.
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Isak Benedict Edward Langley is back!! How I have missed thee!
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Michael Grumbine Maybe the dueling, 2-page monologues?
...
Oh, I thought you asked something slightly different.
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John Ruplinger Matthew, you seem to think that the so called confessional state peeps have no standing because there is nothing they can do. Ethics and politics are about what out to be done. But you seem to confine such action to a very narrow scope of activity.
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Isak Benedict Michael Grumbine, pardon me?
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Isak Benedict Haiku it is then.
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Isak Benedict .
umbrella-sharing -
the one more in love
gets wet
~ Keisanjin
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John Ruplinger Fight fire with fire. tl;dr with tl;dr as grandad used to say.
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Isak Benedict The teal deer is a sad, sad symptom of the distracted sickness - a disease only facilitated by the Internet. It's a pathetic way of shifting the blame for a reader's inability to consider a point at length to a writer's penning anything longer than 140 characters.
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Isak Benedict But the prevalence of this disease might mean that the haiku is the ideal (and the real!) poetic form for this age
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Isak Benedict .
the Milky Way -
since my wife became pregnant
it seems even whiter
~ Takaha Shugyo
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Isak Benedict .
a sudden chill -
treading on my dead wife's comb
in our bedroom
~ Buson
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Isak Benedict .
don't cry, insects!
all lovers, even the stars
must part
~ Issa
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Isak Benedict .
only a dream -
how cold the empty half
of an old man's bed
~ Nishiyama Soin
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Isak Benedict And as a goodnight, TNET, one of my own:
the little girl passes
the crucifix - says daddy,
he wants to get down
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John Ruplinger My muse went to bed. And I like tl;dr .
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Isak Benedict Of all the great haiku masters of old, I think Issa is my favorite.
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Isak Benedict An American variation, just to piss off any lurking haiku purists:
what color
is
the mirror?
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Isak Benedict Goodnight TNET, sleep soundly and resume joyous banter on the morrow.
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Joel HF Isak Benedict, you may not enjoy it as much, but I was impressed by the political-philosophizing. (Though I'm not sure that Locke must be read as you read him, nor am I sure how Locke *ought* to be read. It's been a while. My main memory of Locke is thinking: Wow, this guy is the worst philosopher we've read yet.)
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Michael Beitia I think it mostly boils down to semantics, with the confessional state peeps looking to disagree, instead of following the ABDs.
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Jeffrey Bond O mores! O tempora!
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Michael Beitia seldom affirm
never deny
Always Be Distinguishing
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Max Summe ^^ from Glen Gary Glen Thomas?
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Max Summe "You put that coffee down! Coffee is for Philosophers."
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Pater Edmund I'm in the midst of writing a paper on Dignitatis Humanæ and am using the opportunity to take a cheap shot at this Escalante essay: http://calvinistinternational.com/.../two-ends-or-two.../
I'm saying that it shows that Protestant "sola gratia" rhetoric is just a smokescreen for their profound denial of grace. It's not that they don't believe in pure nature, it's that they think that's all there is...
Two Ends or Two Kingdoms? - The Calvinist International
The Calvinist International is a forum for research,...
CALVINISTINTERNATIONAL.COM
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Michael Beitia thanks Max, for referencing. Peterson had that whole speech re-written in the olden days
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Max Summe Michael - I did not know that. That sounds great...
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Michael Beitia brass balls
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John Boyer So just finished reading Locke for a lecture. After last night, I think I will punt on the whole liberty thing. I'm tired of hearing about it for now.
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Matthew J. Peterson Isak Benedict did a great job laying out what is a classic / traditional position at this point. You should philosophize more.
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Jeffrey Bond John, when you want some refreshment and clarity on the issue, read Leo XIII's Libertas and compare Leo's explanation of liberty with Locke's view.
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Jeffrey Bond Leo is a real man, writing in the real world, for real people, who have to live in the Lockean world of classical liberalism, and therefore are likely to be confused about concepts such as liberty, political authority, and Church/State relations. Leo takes the principles of Aristotle and St. Thomas and applies them to the here and now in light of the eternal.
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Matthew J. Peterson It's all so very clear. Except what for that whole problem of what ought to be done when people disagree about the highest ends...
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Michael Beitia so if a man lives in a political group where he is free in the Lockean sense, then he is also free in the Leonine sense?
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Matthew J. Peterson Not to mention the long, messy history of church and state relations in the west, which is anything but clear.
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Matthew J. Peterson Ignore the quotes from Cotton Mather to Abraham Lincoln arguing against absolute liberty based on a notion of absolute right and wrong.
Ignore the countless Americans who have made the point repeatedly in famous speeches and countless other ways: popular government needs morality, and morality needs religion.
Ignore the fact that the entire point of Federalist 10 is about stopping the majority of people from letting their might make right.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Leo was a Lockean
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Matthew J. Peterson Ignore the very reason for religious liberty, which was to protect religion.
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Matthew J. Peterson Ignore the fact that disestablishment arises out of the fact that Christianity is violently divided.
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Brian Kemple Sometimes Peterson goes on these rants and I'm sure of neither to whom they're addressed or to what point... am I the only one? Is it just because I haven't had coffee yet?
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Matthew J. Peterson Ignore the fact that for all his faults, Locke stops the bleeding on the ground.
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Matthew J. Peterson Ignore the last 60 years of the Church and many other times and places and quotes besides.
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Matthew J. Peterson Copy and paste out some Pope quotes.
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Matthew J. Peterson Rinse. Repeat. Church state relations made simple.
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Pater Edmund I've been reading this Rhonheimer book for my DH essay: http://www.amazon.de/dp/3451306034
And it's like reading an extra long Matthew J. Peterson facebook rant...
Christentum und säkularer Staat: Geschichte - Gegenwart - Zukunft
Christentum und säkularer Staat: Geschichte -...
AMAZON.DE
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Michael Beitia Here, quote Leo XIII:
For these reasons, venerable brethren, your work will be most useful and salutary if you employ with us every industry and effort which God has given you in order to avert the dangers and evils of human society. Strive with all possible care to make men understand and show forth in their lives what the Catholic Church teaches on government and the duty of obedience. Let the people be frequently urged by your authority and teaching to fly from the forbidden sects, to abhor all conspiracy, to have nothing to do with sedition, and let them understand that they who for God's sake obey their rulers render a reasonable service and a generous obedience. And as it is God "who gives safety to kings,"[33] and grants to the people "to rest in the beauty of peace and in the tabernacles of confidence and in wealthy repose,"[34] it is to Him that we must pray, beseeching Him to incline all minds to uprightness and truth, to calm angry passions, to restore the long-wished-for tranquillity to the world.
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Jeffrey Bond Brian Kemple, I think it is fair to say that Matthew J. Peterson is addressing me, Spaceman par excellence. And I will dutifully answer when I can. Right now, to class.
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Matthew J. Peterson You want some form of explicit establishment?
It's very simple. Heh. Work to eliminate the divisions within Christianity, and stop blaming James Madison and friends.
Unity will get you there.
Force to persuasion in the highest sense and all that is in between are your options.
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Matthew J. Peterson And if anyone really wants to prove anything here, in depth study of what Americans actually said and did is necessary. Not ideological drive bys. Real scholarship.
And if you want to prove that America got to where it is BECAUSE of evil philosophy seeds, you have even more serious work to do.
Similarly, careful readings of Popes and philosophers are also needed, with context and history.
But one of the downsides of our great booksy circles is to disdain such work. Far better to flit from quote to quote by way of simplistic opposition.
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Matthew J. Peterson If Christianity is unified, establishment of some kind is on the table again in some form. In any regime. Especially this one, since it is still majority based.
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John Ruplinger Michael, would you comment on the significance of that quote?
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John Ruplinger It does give guidance as to what ought to be done. But there are many things that can be done that ought to be done. Lots of choices for liberty to choose from. But I don't know what you were aiming at.
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Jose Mena Wait doesn't Matthew J. Peterson think the Constitution is a sacred text and the Federalist papers are its midrash?
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Michael Beitia oh it just seemed to advise people to avoid FACTION. I wonder where else I've read that.....
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Matthew J. Peterson It is hilarious to me that I am accused of that, since I get accused of the opposite in other circles.
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Jose Mena http://jonmcnaughton.com/.../One.../one_nation_under_God.jpg
JONMCNAUGHTON.COM
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Matthew J. Peterson But the position on the table is, frankly, absurd. The inability to deal with actual history is a red flag. The lack of self-knowledge when leaping from philosophy land (well, Locke says...) to real life (and therefore America...) and the lack of the obvious work needed to prove these things is ridiculous.
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Brian Kemple Has anyone really proven anything at all, of any sort whatosever, on this thread? Other than that some people are tools?
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Isak Benedict What do you think government is for, Matthew?
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Matthew J. Peterson HERE IS WHAT IS ALMOST SELF-EVIDENT: ESTABLISHMENT NEVER EXISTS FOR MORE THAN TWO SECONDS IF THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AREN'T OF THE SAME RELIGION.
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Michael Beitia let's quote Leo XIII again:
There is no doubt that in the sphere of politics ample matter may exist for legitimate difference of opinion, and that, the single reserve being made of the rights of justice and truth, all may strive to bring into actual working the ideas believed likely to be more conducive than others to the general welfare. But to attempt to involve the Church in party strife, and seek to bring her support to bear against those who take opposite views is only worthy of partisans. Religion should, on the contrary, be accounted by every one as holy and inviolate; nay, in the public order itself of States -- which cannot be severed from the laws influencing morals and from religious duties -- it is always urgent, and indeed the main preoccupation, to take thought how best to consult the interests of Catholicism. Wherever these appear by reason of the efforts of adversaries to be in danger, all differences of opinion among Catholics should forthwith cease, so that, like thoughts and counsels prevailing, they may hasten to the aid of religion, the general and supreme good, to which all else should be referred. We think it well to treat this matter somewhat more in detail.
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Isak Benedict What do you think government is FOR, Matthew?
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Matthew J. Peterson So put up the memes and live in fringe land all you want. I gave you the best advice you will all ever get to attain what you desire. Unify Christianity into one body.
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Michael Beitia that's an awfully loaded question Isak, if you're one of them that thinks that politics is natural
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Michael Beitia stop capslocking
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Isak Benedict For someone who wants practicality, "unify Christianity into one body" is awfully theoretical advice.
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Matthew J. Peterson No, that's pretty straightforward advice.
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Matthew J. Peterson And practical
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Isak Benedict I'm not trying to troll, Matthew. I honestly want to know what you think the whole point of government is.
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Michael Beitia if politics is natural, then there will always be gov'ment? no?
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Michael Beitia so what do you mean by "for"?
#ABDgnosis
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Jeff Neill Unification... Ok sounds easy, one matter or one form?
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Matthew J. Peterson You need one bread, one body.
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Jeff Neill One guitar to Jesus rock?
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John Ruplinger In brief, Leo counsels against sedition and for recourse to God. Moreover, he urges the Catholics to end employing the Church in factions where differences are permitted and unite in securing the liberty and protection of the true religion.
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Matthew J. Peterson I've already said I agree with Aristotle and St. Thomas. I disagree with the cartoon understanding of them and these issues that so many in our circles hold onto like Denethor to the Palantir.
But I'm not going to answer any more questions until someone starts answering mine. Assume we agree on what the whole point of government is and stop playing this sophistic game. If you want to prove that the First Amendment is what you say it is, you have to start talking about actual history.
Let me say it again: disestablishment exists in America because sects wanted to protect their religion, which they thought true, and not because of some kind of modernist nihilism. It exists because of the violent divisions in Christianity, which people in America understandably and prudently did not want to deal with at the federal level.
ON THE LEVEL OF REASON, HERE IS WHAT IS ALMOST SELF-EVIDENT: ESTABLISHMENT NEVER EXISTS FOR MORE THAN TWO SECONDS IF THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AREN'T OF THE SAME RELIGION.
And if you want to prove that the First Amendment caused what one sees now, the long journey of a serious historical case also awaits you.
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Isak Benedict What do you mean by "natural," Michael?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Pater, go for it! Though I suspect it can only be an exercise in begging questions and deploying unexamined terms. But sure, there's something to what you're saying- bit insofar as there is, we're right.
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Matthew J. Peterson That human beings are naturally social is clear. That government arises from our nature is clear. But that nature - our nature - is also RATIONAL. And thus we do not build governments like bees build hives. We have to use our reason to build it. It doesn't grow on trees. And we find that doing this is difficult and the blueprint is not self-evident nor apparent.
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Isak Benedict I'm not playing any sophistic games. You can't talk about "actual history" or "what ought to be done" until you've agreed on principles. And I'm afraid I can't accept your suggestion that we "assume we agree on what the whole point of government is," because you've designated my understanding of certain political thinkers as "cartoon." I assume you do not think your own understanding is cartoonish. Let's therefore not pretend that we agree on principles.
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Isak Benedict Does "arises from our nature" mean "it's just what we do with our reason" or "fulfills the final cause of our natures?"
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Brian Kemple The ability to get cancer also arises from our nature, and to have our manhoods removed, and to die.
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Isak Benedict Are you really suggesting unification of Christianity - one body, one bread - as some kind of practical solution, and simultaneously denigrating a government that endorses one true faith? That seems to me to be self-contradictory.
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Isak Benedict Brian, you misunderstand the phrase "by nature."
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Jeff Neill I see an argument for a Unitarian church, and I agree that the development of the state over time is a product of the times, however, the problem seems to be people disagree on the ends of the state
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Brian Kemple Actually, I really don't. These are all things which are in us per naturam, as what we are as constituted in our essence. Now, if you mean the innate ordination of a thing towards its final cause, then this is inapplicable with regard to human beings as regards the means whereby that end is attained; for, as Peterson rightly states, being rational means not being determined to a specific means.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante And Catherine, now that we're friends, I have to confess to having fibbed to you. I do read Russian novels, and poetry (the latter sometimes in Russian when I'm feeling brave;I hope someday to hammer out some passable translations of Baratynksy). But Solzhenitsyn has never appealed to me.
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Jeff Neill Also, people do not seem to want true religion, especially if it restricts the "freedoms" they have from the faith they currently sport.
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Isak Benedict "And if you want to prove that the First Amendment caused what one sees now, the long journey of a serious historical case also awaits you." Matthew, I can certainly agree with you there. But we can't embark on the journey without making sure the sails, the rudder, the wheel, et cetera, are seaworthy. Are our principles in order? That has to happen first.
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Matthew J. Peterson No, it doesn't. What I am saying is very simple. If the goal is a government that endorses the one true faith, you need to unify the church into one true faith. Heh.
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Matthew J. Peterson Unless you want to force it on everyone else using the government. But, of course, you and no one else will ever answer that question...
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew, you keep failing to point out that Protestants can conceive "mere Christian" faith distinctly from its organized schola. It would be possible to establish the former without establishing any of the latter. I think that was more or less what was going in the American foundation, though admittedly unclearly. And everyone, Matt is right about the dangers of a "Great Books" approach. To understand the American founding, you have to look at British common law and the revolutionists' assumption of it, the idea of "law of nations", and other factors. It's not just Locke vs Aquinas, not at all.
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Isak Benedict Of course it's not just Locke versus Aquinas. But their opposition makes clearest the principal problems.
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Matthew J. Peterson The problems of abstract ghosts. Not the very particular problems at hand.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I'm not sure it does, in fact. The real background is probably the Putney Debates.
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Isak Benedict How can you set sail in particular directions if your compass is not set to true north?
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Matthew J. Peterson Of course, Christianity rejects the idea that human government fulfills the final cause of our nature by positing that the law condemns, grace supersedes nature, and the end is to become as gods by God in a community beyond human contrivance. The entirety of the OT shows just how grand human government...can be.
But human governance, to be sure, ought to aim at the highest of ends when and how it can.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante ^infima doctrina
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Brian Kemple Any direction in which you sail is a particular direction...
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Brian Kemple Just like every rose has its thorn.
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Brian Kemple Just like every night has its dawn.
And every cowboy sings a sad, sad, song.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante and every Ultramontane sings his sad, sad song.
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Isak Benedict And some of them lead right to Charybdis, and some right to Scylla.
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Matthew J. Peterson Christianity would reject any human community that asserted it fulfilled the final cause of human nature on its own. In fact, a higher community is posited - and this higher community and the higher ends it reveals for human beings ought to uplift the regime of human governance. But this is in many ways to DIMINISH the complete or ultimate role that human governance thought it played before Christianity, of course.
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Jeff Neill Lol.... But magnetic north is good enough, and there are all sorts of maps constantly changing what north is and regional variations magnetic north.
I love your analogy since it is a perfect example of a false "true" that seems to work with constant updates.
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Isak Benedict Tit willow, tit willow, tit willow
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Matthew J. Peterson The beatific vision becomes the final end of man, and this renders the highest proximate agency of government subservient to a higher community and higher ends - in some way. Things get messy the more one zooms in.
But if one thinks of the finest of statesman, it becomes apparent that they are very qualified soul doctors. So much of what they do is simply trying to keep the room together while people pee on the rug.
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Isak Benedict I think I'll go live on the top of a column in the desert like the Stylites
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Matthew J. Peterson But I want to hear more about how establishment could be possible or desirable even if most people weren't part of the sect that was specifically established. I suppose a military coup by traddies in the US might do it, and then a slow propaganda campaign back up by the use of our weaponry...
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Matthew J. Peterson No, be a poet and philosophize here with us. We need you.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Matthew doesn't it matter that for Protestantism, the higher community which you speak of is mystical, and not a temporal-political corporation? One cannot possibly "establish" the former in the temporal horizon, though its principles can be established; whereas for Rome, establishment is precisely establishment of a temporally extant corporation as directive of/over the State
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Jehoshaphat Escalante this *does* have something to do with the character of the American Constitution, I think
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Isak Benedict I intend on converting the populace by means of the humble haiku
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Matthew J. Peterson I think you did a great job giving that interpretation of Locke, too.
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Matthew J. Peterson So consider essays.
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Isak Benedict Well thanks. Didn't you post some kind of essay on this subject way back in the Middle Ages of TNET? I'd like to read it, because frankly I'm baffled by some of your opinions on this matter and I'd like to see your extended treatment.
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Matthew J. Peterson I think it matters, Jehoshaphat Escalante, but not as much as you do. At least in this sense: you have the same problem. There weren't any Catholics here in the founding era to speak of. The multiplicity and growth of protestant sects leads to disestablishment. But if you had one in charge, or one vast majority, you'd get what you got in the New England towns and states like Massachusetts: some form of establishment. If Protestantism was united in a serious, corporal way - well, think of all the places yall could go and the things yall could do. It would be transformative.
But in the sense that it was assumed that, for all practical purposes, the entirety of the states were protestant - over all, protestantism made everyone a bit more comfortable with relying on the assumption, I think.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I think you're really missing the Cromwellian precedent here, of miniminal establishment of the principle of religion, sans establishment of any schola. Vide The Instrument of Government, and the Putney Debates.
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Michael Beitia so what is the end of government?
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Isak Benedict Haiku composed while returning from the bathroom to class:
is my fly open?
I pass the loitering students
my shoes squeaking
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Michael Beitia haiku about said bathroom:
what effluvium
Feel sorry for the next guy
Burrito gnosis
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Samantha Cohoe Bathroom talk is for home. Is what I would say to my students. Too bad you aren't my students.
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Michael Beitia Yes, you're right. But I can't get any answers to my tNET questions.
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Brian Kemple Government's end is extrinsically imposed. While something which results from the nature of a human being, it does not have itself a natural form. Thus the end of government, insofar as it is something arising naturally, is the end of human life. But it does not have an end in and of itself, just as a chair does not have an end in and of itself apart from human intentions.
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Samantha Cohoe Peace is the end of government
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Isak Benedict Anarchy is the end of government.
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Isak Benedict
Isak Benedict's photo.
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Isak Benedict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmWs6Jf5dc
Sex Pistols - Anarchy In The UK
Okay... Over 1 millon views. Amazing! ---- From Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols album....
YOUTUBE.COM
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Michael Beitia I prefer their cover of "stepping stone" much better than the Monkees
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Isak Benedict #anarchygnosis
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Michael Beitia Here is a good start for #realanarchygnosis :
http://www.amazon.com/The.../dp/0486436322/ref=sr_1_1...
The Great Anarchists: Ideas and Teachings of Seven Major Thinkers
This classic comparative study examines the thoughts...
AMAZON.COM
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Isak Benedict I just like poser anarchy. #punkgnosis
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Samantha Cohoe I'm not going to read that. Anarchy is stupid.
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Michael Beitia There's a whole chapter on Tolstoy, Samantha.
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Samantha Cohoe I take it back!
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Michael Beitia #actuallyownthebookgnosis
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Samantha Cohoe Of course, Tolstoy was a great artist and a terrible philosopher.
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Brian Kemple I think my main objection to anarchy is their adopted logo. On so many levels...
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Michael Beitia anarchy in the punk rock sense (teenage) sense of the word is, as you say, stupid. Catholic workers movement is anarchic...
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Samantha Cohoe St Louis Public Library system does not have that book
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Samantha Cohoe I will have Caleb check SLU.
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Michael Beitia just like everything else politically, it is an attempt to answer the question, "what ought to be done"? there's a lot of discourse about that.
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Isak Benedict One of the differences between the Japanese haiku tradition of old, and the American haiku tradition begun by Pound and Carlos Williams and continued by the Beats, is the notion of apprenticeship to a haijin - a haiku master. Where do I go, as an American poet, to learn to master the haiku?
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Isak Benedict "Direct treatment of the thing whether subjective or objective." ~ Ezra Pound
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Michael Beitia http://www.haikusociety.com/learn/haikumasters
Haiku Masters | Haiku Society
About Haiku Masters
HAIKUSOCIETY.COM
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Isak Benedict "Things are symbols of themselves." ~ Chogyam Trungpa
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Isak Benedict "Everything happens to a man precisely, precisely now. Centuries of centuries and only in the present do things happen." ~ Jorge Luis Borges
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Isak Benedict 'When to the moment I shall say,
“Linger awhile! So fair thou art!”' ~ Goethe
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Isak Benedict "Poetry is in love with the instant and seeks
to relive it in the poem, thus separating it
from sequential time and turning it into a
fixed Present." ~ Octavio Paz
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Isak Benedict "All things will be in everything;
nor is it possible for them to be apart,
but all things have a portion of everything." ~ Anaxagoras
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Isak Benedict Cool link Michael but reading the old masters is not the same as studying under a living master.
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Isak Benedict I wish I knew Kerouac. He knew and understood both haiku tradition and the beautiful variations possible.
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Catherine Ryland I lived in a catholic worker community with mostly-non-violent anarchists. We decided most things democratically and there were quite a few more rules than I would have expected of anarchists.
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Isak Benedict My Speech and Debate class is watching 12 Angry Men. Every single one of them is rapt. Spellbound. I'm so happy.
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John Ashman Samantha Cohoe thinks anarchy is stupid....but virgin births from godsperm makes total sense.
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Pater Edmund So I listened to some of the Arabic philosophy lectures recommended by Caleb Cohoe (http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/formative-period). Apparently Avicenna taught himself medicine by reading Galen. This led him to self-medicate with wine, despite knowing the Koran by heart. Also near the end of his life he determined by means of his #Galengnosis that he needed to stop having sexual intercourse if he was to survive a poison attack. He was however, unable to abstain, and died as he had himself predicted.
Formative Period | History of Philosophy without any gaps
Philosophy in the Islamic world begins in the 9th...
HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET
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Samantha Cohoe What kind of poison attack are we talking about here?
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Pater Edmund His servants gave him poison because they feared that he would use his #gnosis to catch them stealing.
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Caleb Cohoe The charge that Avicenna failed to abstain when he knew he should seems to come from later hostile scholars not contemporary sources so we should give him the benefit of the doubt
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Caleb Cohoe http://www.historyofphilosophy.net/did-avicenna-kill...
Did Avicenna kill himself by having too much sex? | History of Philosophy...
HISTORYOFPHILOSOPHY.NET
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Samantha Cohoe Can't imagine abstinence would have helped much against poison anyway
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Pater Edmund I thought the charge came from his student Abu Ubayd al-Juzjani.
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Samantha Cohoe Matthew J. Peterson-- this subject would make an interesting CURRENT DISCUSSION heading.
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Caleb Cohoe His student claimed that Avicenna was quite sexually active but the earliest manuscript doesn't connect this to his last days or describe a failure of abstinence
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Pater Edmund I typed the Juzjani thing before seeing the post you linked, Caleb Cohoe. That's interesting. Corrupt text = #badgnosis.
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Caleb Cohoe You've got to be careful about who edits the manuscripts of your biography
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Caleb Cohoe In the future. Which is hard to do.
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Caleb Cohoe The key is to build an adoring school around yourself
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Samantha Cohoe Like Socrates?
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Pater Edmund "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it." – Winston Churchill
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Caleb Cohoe Heading - Avicenna: sex addict or victim of jealous scholarly slander?
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Caleb Cohoe Well, Socrates did it the hard way by dying for his philosophy
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Pater Edmund "The Master was vigorous in all his faculties, the sexual faculty being the most vigorous and dominant of his concupiscible faculties, and he exercised it often." http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0957423913000039
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Caleb Cohoe Others have looked for an easier way
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Caleb Cohoe A lot of school or cult leaders would like that sentence in their biographies
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Pater Edmund Weak as philosophers are now they are more likely to die from The Neverending Thread addiction...
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Brian Kemple Death by sexual exhaustion sounds like a helluva way to go, to me.
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Pater Edmund I think that is the actual etymology of effete.
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Michael Beitia why hasn't Matthew J. Peterson changed the headline to this....
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Pater Edmund I surprised that Gabriel Sanchez hasn't looked in for this conversation.
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Gabriel Sanchez I'm lurking in the shadows.
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Brian Kemple You should try lurking in the light sometime. It's way creepier and no one knows what to do about it.
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Isak Benedict 39,020!!!! We've stopped caring about the milestones.
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Michael Beitia I saw numbers pass
Like a car odometer
milestones are for jerks
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Isak Benedict By the way I love this.
http://brandonvogt.com/friar-order-skate/
The Friar Who Was Ordered to Skate - Brandon Vogt
Friar Gabriel skated for seven years as a teenager in...
BRANDONVOGT.COM
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Jeff Neill Nightmares of "Sister Act"
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Marie Donovan You guys! The world record for most comments in a facebook status update is 583,444. So you've only got 544,000 some odd comments to go. But likely TNET will die first. (1,2,3, *collective gasp*)
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Jeff Neill References to counting does not count.
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Michael Beitia On the bright side, I finished reading "The Showa Anthology" this evening. Modern Japanese short stories are great. I'm going to the used bookstore in Hyde Park on Saturday, so now I can peruse something besides the anarchist/Marxist section.
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Jeffrey Bond Powell's on 57th?
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Michael Beitia you know it
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Sean Robertson Marie, TNET cannot die. If you strike it down, TNET will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
3 hrs · Like · 1
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Michael Beitia how do you strike at infinity? best batter the wind
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Sean Robertson I'm currently trying to picture TNET as an immortal, luminescent Jedi.
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Jeffrey Bond So I guess Powell's is still there. My other favorite used book store, also on 57th but closer to campus, was O'Gara's. Is that one still around?
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Michael Beitia not that I know of, there's 57th street bookstore, and the seminary co-op
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Jeffrey Bond Maybe 57th street bookstore took over from O'Gara. The seminary bookstore was always very impressive, but also very expensive as I recall. I spent a lot of time reading their books, but not buying them.
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Michael Beitia 57th is on the corner of 57th and Woodlawn, you have to go underground to get into it, and there are several rooms, all with different subjects
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Megan Baird Brownie points to Sean Robertson for epic Star Wars references.
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Jeffrey Bond Now I remember 57th street bookstore and the underground approach. O'Gara's was a third bookstore, also on 57th, but I can't remember the nearest intersecting street.
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Michael Beitia was it on the North side of the street? a bookstore used to be there...
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Isak Benedict It's been a sleepy afternoon for TNET. Are we running out of things to talk about?
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Megan Baird Sigrid isn't so bad....it's much better reading Kirstin Lavransdatter in the modern translation. The Charles Archer (I think) translation is terrible.
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Isak Benedict And people call ME condescending?
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Isak Benedict (That means I talk down to people.)
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I find Undset dreary and whiny; but then, the literary queen of my heart (Isak Dinesen) detested Undset and wrote partly to give Scandinavian letters something better to boast of
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Jehoshaphat Escalante to be fair I have only read the older translation.
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Aaron Gigliotti The thrill of victory and the etymology of effete.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Alright Isak, I got the juggernaut rolling again for you
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Megan Baird Read the modern version...the Tiina Nunnally translation is excellent. Made the book bearable.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "bearable"
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Jehoshaphat Escalante I will at least skim the new one on that recommendation
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Megan Baird I tried really, really hard to like O'Connor. But I just didn't see the fuss. I found Brideshead Revisted much more affecting ... that's probably not the right word but I can't articulate this late at night.
17 mins · Like · 1
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Jehoshaphat Escalante nearly at 40000, alumni klatschers
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Megan Baird Philosophy and theology and political theories are not my strong point. Literature is much more my thing. Hence, my oddball thesis.
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Aaron Gigliotti Are TAC grads allowed to like Graham Greene or is the list of approved novelists really just O'Connor, Waugh, and Undset?
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Joshua Kenz On a serious note, we can give some coherent view of the American regime without addressing the now muddled Catholic doctrine. DH is one of the most problematic documents ever out of a council and most attempts at reconciliation are sophistry, including the responses given Lefebrve...(but more on that when I finish translating that document)
Cardinal Ottaviani, e.g., recognizes the principle by which the Church encourages equal toleration when she is not the general religion of the people. An establishment of the Church has never been an option here, for good or ill.
In anycase, Christians honored their temporal rules in ancient Rome, despite rejecting the Roman religion, which was essentially civic. Even if we take the view, plausible at the very least to me, that the idea of American liberty/religious freedom is, in a way, a counter-creed, well it wasn't like ancient Rome wasn't. Heck Romans were tolerant as heck, just follow the customs of wherever you are.
Those, admittedly myself included, who want a Catholic state must focus on the "Catholicization" of America and the working for the common good within the regime we have. We can argue about what an American Catholic Confessional state should look like when Catholics are of sufficient number to even dream of effecting such.
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Megan Baird TAC grads can like whomever they choose. They just might be mocked for some of their choices.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante My application essay re: influential book was on a Yourcenar novella and they let me in
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Isak Benedict I love Isak Dinesen.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante as one should
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Aaron Gigliotti I bring up Greene because he is a "Catholic novelist" that I rarely hear discussed among TACers.
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Megan Baird I used a PD James novel for my application essay: Children of Men. Fantastic read. Really excellent.
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Joshua Kenz I liked Sigrid Undset. But I only read The Master of Hestviken. And I read it for reasons ulterior to literature appreciation...I had a motive to like it before I even read it. But I liked it a lots, as far as I remember
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Aaron, when I was there, the general idea was that Greene was probably not much of a Catholic
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Jehoshaphat Escalante sort of like Tennessee Williams
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Aaron Gigliotti The truth comes out
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Isak Benedict Graham Greene is one of my favorite authors. And he's totally Catholic.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante of course Waugh himself was an unspeakable bastard, much as I love BR, LO, and a couple ofothers
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Megan Baird You know what gets my goat? People that like Bud MacFarlane Jr's stuff and consider that great Catholic literature.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Isak, I never know what it means when someone is called a "Catholic author", but I see no reason to doubt Greene's personal faith
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Isak Benedict 'In July 1965, Graham Greene had a private audience with Pope Paul VI. They talked about how his novel, The Power and the Glory, had been condemned by the papacy and placed on the Index two decades earlier. The new Pope asked who in the Vatican actually condemned it, and when Greene told him the name of the cardinal, the Pope smiled and then said, “Mr. Greene, some parts of your book are certain to offend some Catholics, but you should pay no attention to that.”'
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Aaron Gigliotti I really love Waugh and O'Connor, but to me, Greene is the better artist. I can't get past page ten of that Scandinavian crap.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante Greene is on the whole the better artist for sure
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Isak Benedict http://www.firstthings.com/.../12/the-catholic-writer-today
Catholic writers must renovate and reoccupy their own tradition.
I. For years I’ve pondered a cultural and social paradox...
FIRSTTHINGS.COM
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Aaron Gigliotti The Quiet American is such a beautiful novel. I could read it any time, anywhere.
6 mins · Like · 1
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Isak Benedict Above is a pretty good article on Catholic literature and authors.
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Megan Baird The problem with a lot of "Catholic" literature is that it is the Catechism set to fiction.
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Joshua Kenz Paul VI also loved Agatha Christie (I understand his favorite author, at least in English). FWIW
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Aaron Gigliotti Huxley was a great Catholic author who didn't know he was a Catholic.
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Isak Benedict You said it Aaron!!
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Jehoshaphat Escalante what in the hell does that even mean
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Jehoshaphat Escalante "Catholic" = "gives me the fuzzies"
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Isak Benedict Don't listen to him Aaron I totally got it.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante #catholicgnosis
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Isak Benedict Megan I met MacFarlane's son last week and liked him a lot, so I don't want to spend time bashing those books - but I will say I found them highly disagreeable.
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Aaron Gigliotti Nah. Brave New World could have been written by a devout Catholic. It is the best commentary available on the Church's current place in the world w/r/t moral theology.
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Isak Benedict #fuzzygnosis
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Megan Baird MacFarlane's son is a good kid but I will bash those books to no end.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante on the bullshit misuse of "Catholic":
http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/mathie/04612.html
Anna Mathie: Outside "Catholic"
Reprinted with permission from our good friends at InsideCatholic.com, the leading online journal of Catholic faith, culture, and politics.
CATHOLICITY.COM
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Megan Baird Preachy, pedantic, drivel wrapped up in Catholicism is not literature.
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Isak Benedict Have you read his essays in "The Divine Within" Aaron?
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Jehoshaphat Escalante by an alumna, no less
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Aaron Gigliotti Joshua Kenz I have a daughter named Agatha!
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Jehoshaphat Escalante seriously people read that essay and repent
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Megan Baird Agatha Christie is fantastic. Love her stuff. PD James' "Children of Men" is quite spectacular.
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Joshua Kenz Huxley I think was greater for his insight than his actual writing skill. His vision of a dystopia was far more on spot than Orwell, though Orwell was better as far as his skill as an author
But as an author in general, look at his omnia opera, he wasn't very Catholic...especially after becoming a buddhist. He was "Catholic" the way a post-modernist is a "philosopher" right more in the evil he sees, wrong in what he holds instead.
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Brian Kemple His implicit Catholicism really shines when he describes his experiences with LSD...
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Brian Kemple Gonna say it, right here and now, the movie Children of Men is better than the book.
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Jehoshaphat Escalante but Joshua, Huxley gives Aaron woo-woo feelings!
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Megan Baird Oh, I could go on a soapbox rant about 'Christian' fiction and movies too. Now that's a subject on which I could rant for HOURS.
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Daniel Lendman Flannery O'Conner is amazing.
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Megan Baird Brian: I'd kick your shins for saying that except I haven't seen the movie.
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Megan Baird *Groan*
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Daniel Lendman Sigrid Undset is also amazing.
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Daniel Lendman #noattentiontocurrentdiscussiongnosis
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Jehoshaphat Escalante hahahaha
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Matthew J. Peterson Let's tag some literature people.
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Brian Kemple “She would have been a good woman, if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life.”
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Aaron Gigliotti So protective of the Catholic brand around here.
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